PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number20 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, MARCH 9,1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

•1 Harch 9th. 1970 Tape 251 PK- 1 The House Het at 3:00 P.}f. Hr. Speaker in the Chair. HR. SPEAKER: Order. PRESENTING PETITIONS HON. WILLIA11 N. ROWE: (HINISTER OF COl!MUNITY AND SOCIAL DEVELOP!lENT): Hr. Speaker, I beg leave to present to this hon. House, a petition received from what appears to be all of the voters of the community of 1-lestport, in my district of lfuite Bay South, about 150 voters have signed their names, your Honour. And the petition reads, "He the undersigned residents of l'estport protest the Government 1 s delays in serving Hestport •lith electricity.

He would like very much to have Hestport included in the 1970-71 Program for electricity". Sir, I am lJholeheartily behind the import of this petition. I agree that l'estport and other communities like it, should have had electricity before now, and they would have had electricity had capital financing been· available. Hestport is one of only two communities left in my lJhole district, which are presently without electricity. And it is, Sir, high time that the community of l·Jestport and Purbeck 1 s Cove adjacent to it, had electrical services extended.

I am led to believe that this year, Westport lvill have electricity and to make that belief a firm fact, I move that this petition be received by this han. House and referred to the department to which it relates. HON. F. H. ROWE: (NINISTER OF EDUCATION): Mr. Speaker, I would like to add my support to that petition from the people of Hestport, which is an old co:mnunity of Hhite Ilay, a progressive community and one l·Thich for several years now has been looking forward with eager anticipation.

Perhaps, I should say in defense of the Government, and of the Power Commission, that some years ago,some six or seven years \vere made ago, plans/to put electricity in the community of Westport, but at the time there were a number of people there who had their own private generators, and it was difficult to get any community consenses of opinion, and as a result the opportunity was lost at that time.

However, since then they have come together and it seems to be that the time is nmv passed lvhen that community and any other community near it, in this particular case Purbeck 1 s Cove1 should have a supply of electricity.,_· And I heartily support the prayer of this petition. }fR. ~PEAKER: Moved and seconded that this petition be received and referred to the department to which it relates. // .(y' .. - -- ---· . . . ~ - ... -·--· ... --- -..:; '

.. · 1-larch 9th. 1970 Tape 251 PK- 2 PRESENTING REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT CO}!HITTEES HON. E. M. ROBERTS: (MINISTER OF HEALTH): Mr. Speaker, earlier in this session I told the House that I would have the Annual Report of the Department of Health ready for tabling by the tenth of }larch) I think, was the date, Sir. Thanks to the speedy and efficient work of my absent colleague, the Minister of Supply and his officials, Sir, the report is now ready for tabling. I have one copy here, Sir, the Clerks office I am told has sufficient copies for the members as well as for the press.

If any person should wish additional copies, Sir, my Deputy Minister or the Administrator of Health Services would be only to happy to make them available in reasonable numbers to any interested party. NOTICE OF MOTION HON. ERIC S. JONES: (HINISTER OF FU~ANCE ) : Mr. Speal~er, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the Rules of the House be suspended, on the motion for Interim Supply now on the Order Paper, and on the Supply Bill pursant thereto. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS HON. J. R. Sl"!ALLHCOD: (PREHIER): Hr. Speaker, Question No. 10 7 on the Order .

Paper of February 27th. in the name of the hen. the member for St. Barbe's South, addressed to my colleague, the Hinister of Public Works, who is unavoidably absent from the Chamber today. The answer to

(1) That I have the list.

(2) It •' is usually not possible, usually it is not possible to prepare a lump sum tenders for repair ~mrk. Because the nature and the extent of the repair work usually cannot be precisely determined. Firm prices were sought ~~herever it was feasibility to do so, otherwise contractors were asked to come in and do the work. The list of those who did the work and the list of the work done, and the list of the amounts paid are hereby tabled. HON. WILLIAH J.

KEOUGH: Cl1INISTER OF LABOUR); Arising out of question No. 185 on the Order Paper of J:-larch 6th. the hen. the member for Burin addressed a supplementary question to me. And as I did not have the information at the moment, I said I would supply it later. The information he wished was a further breakdown of the Architectural Fee of $7,700 paid by the Horkmens Compensation Board for the design of the office space lay out it occupies in Philip Place on Elizabeth Avenue. This I hope will give him the information that he wishes. First of all the fee was paid to T. Portus Bolton Associates.

The fee is for the design of office I I :l <· . j • :·r-- .. - -·t\ •

~~ I March 9th. 1970 Tape 251 PK- 3 lay out, and supervision of the work. The work done for the Board was designed and location of partitions, electrical outlets as required in each office, and each desk space, telephone location etc. as well as complete supervision and certification of the contractors work. HON. STEPHEN A. NEARY: (HINISTER OF IVELFARE): Hr. Speaker, I have here in my hand, three questions put by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. No. 198 on today's Order Paper.

Question Mo. 1. reads, Did the minister post or caused to have posted in a tvindow in a Bell Island store a letter to the Hinister of Highways outlining his recommendations for road and bridge improvement and construction for the coming Fiscal Year? The answer to this part of the question Mr. Speaker, is a very positive affirmative. As one facet of my continuing program of two-.,•ay communication with my constituents, I have placed that( the hon. gentleman did not ask the question!) I have placed at strategic points :·· throughout the district of Bell Island, bulletin posters which are changed from time to time.

There are uniformly headed, }:r. Speaker, "lfemo from your Nember," and are of a constant eye-catching background colour and headed sufficiently boldly so that as the Greeks said, "Even he who runs may read." I would point out, Nr. Speaker, that this device has proved to be one of the most economically and effective ways of co~municating with my constituents on matter of public interest and an excellent complement to unbiased information they get in the "Newfotmdland Bulletin". I would suggest to you, }fr. Speaker, to the hon.

Leader of the Opposition that it might be "'ell 1JOrth his ~•hile to attempt some similar means of liaison with the electorate of St John's Centre. NR SPEAKER: In answer to a question, the matter should be answered simply and as concisely as possible. MR NEARY: \~ell, I have a number of copies here, Hr. Speaker, to table, and I would like to table copies for the information of the han. member who asked the question. As to Part (2) the answer is No and therefore Part (3) does not apply. NR T-. ALEX HICKMAN: Hr.

Speaker, are ti'e led to tmderstand that confidential letters from hon. members, to the ministers, can be made public by posting them in a public place? MR NEARY: I did not get the question. MR HICKlWl: Is this House to understand that letters from hon, members, to }finisters of the Crow-n, confidential letters, can be posted in a public place? /I 'i • ~. -· · -<'!-·

March 9th. 1970 Tape 251 PK- 4 Y.l.. KEARY: ------ Mr. Speaker, the only answer I can give to that is, that when I on write a letter /behalf of my constituents, I think, they are entitled to know what it is I said in that letter. MR. HICKHAN: Okay, I am agreeable, if you are. MR. CROSBIE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, with reference to 198. Has a letter to the Hinister of Highways posted in any window on Bell island stores? MR. NEARY: l1r. Speaker, I would not be so unethetical as to post a letter from the Minister of Highways, without his permission, and I think I have already answered the question in part (

Z) by saying, "No." MR. CROSBIE: ~!r. Speaker, the hon. minister said that he did not post or caused to be posted, my question is was there a letter from the ~linister of Highways posted? MR. NEARY: Not to my kno~7ledfle, Mr. Speaker. HON. AIDEJI HALONEY: QUNISTER OF FISHERIES): Hr. Speaker, I have the answer to question No. 159 on the Order Paper of }larch 5th. asked by the hon. member for St. John's \{est. In answer to (1) r~so-jet process is being used by the company to convert herring into meal and oil. The operators are of the opinion that the reso-jet process has proven to be successful.

(2) Duing the calendar year 1969 the company was engaged entirely in testing, therefore, no products were made for conunerical use. Several tons ,.;ere shipped out, however, for feed tests. And I should like to say that the company have completed one year of a controlled feeding program on mink using these products and the tests were very successful. No other products ~1ere made during the year.

(3) The plant employed during 19(.9,. twelve men with a payroll of $63,710.91. Office employees numbered four; with a payroll of $26,840.00, the vessels eighteen men, the payroll $93,840.00; and local work contracted $75,464.48. The company's payroll, the company had in its employee, the week ending Feburary 28th. 1970, a total of eighty-two men and a payroll was $7,51G.OO; for the office there were four employees, and the payroll ~1as $622; and the vessel eighteen men employed and the payroll t~as $ '. 9, 036.00. I have the reply, Mr.

Speaker, to question No. 163 on the Order Paper of Harch 5th. asked by the hen. the member for Burin. And I have to reply ;_'-'i._ "-· . _J!L.d.::.:... ·.. ~ , . ·- I I 3 2

J11 Harch 9, 1970 Tape 11252 Page 1 HON. AIDE~< l·!ALONEY ('1inister of Fisheries) : On the Order Paner of March 5, asked by the hen. member for Burin. And I have to renly as follm<s :- It is entirely the right of the Government of this Province to 11:rant or withhold permission to build a herring reduction plant on NeHfoundland soil. It is entirely the right of the Government of Canada to grant licence to Canadian shi)'S to fish in Canadian waters.

The jurisdiction is thus divided the Government of Canada havinP, sole jurisdiction over fish in the waters, methods of fishing, number and sizes of fish that may be taken and the like. And the Government of Canada having sole jurisdiction over the number of fish, the Government of Newfoundland rather, having sole iurisdiction over the number of fish processing plants there may be.

It is obviously in Ne1~foundland's interest to consult lvith the Government of Canada and for the Government of Canada to consult ~rith ~lewfound- land, and these consultations have taken :olace on a matter of herring reduction plants . in this Province. In the vie~r of the Canadian Denartment of Fisheries there is as yet no evidence that the stock of herring in Newfoundland waters has reached a maximum sustainable yield.

The denartment hm,•ever. are s tt1dying h'ays and Means,if it should become necessary to exercise effective control limiting the number of vessels ~1hich may enter the Fishery. · As a nrecautionary measure in this matter, a new denartment of Regional Economic Expansion has heen requested not to make their industrial incentives available for the construction of any more herring reduction plants. I have the answer to Question ( 189) :-!r. Speaker, on the Order Paner of Friday, Harch 6, asked by the hen. the member for St. John's Hest.

The answer to the first part of the question: As of the end of February, 1970, the employees situation t.ras as follotvs: Newfoundlanders - eighty-three. Others - ttventy-two - for a total of 105. The breakdown of the emnloyees under the heading "Others" - United Kingdom - fifteen - Mainland Canada - seven. Part (h} of that question - total number of personnel employed at various times since the start of operations at Harystown. Ne,.foundlanders - 446 - Others - seventy-seven - for a total of 523; And the breakdo1m of Others - United Kingdom - sixty-three, and ~!ainland Canada - fourteen.

Part ttm of /! 3 3 ' ,. - -· .. ,. - --:~)·'

-·· :-!arch 9, 1970 Tape 11252 Page 2 the question ~hich has to do with payrolls. The total payroll for the fiscal year 1968 was $1,422,016 oaid to Newfoundlanders- $1,097,442. To others- $324,574. The total payroll for the fiscal year 1969 was $1,220,994. paid to Newfoundlanders - $926,345 - and to others $294,649. RON. E. S. JONES (l.Unister of Finance): Hr. Speaker, on the Order Paper of ~!arch 6, 1970, .asked by the hon. member for Burin Question (180) •Tabled. MR JONES: Hr. Speaker, could I have leave of the House to return to Notice of Motion? }!r.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow introduce a Bill, entitled, A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Alcoholic Liquors Act." MR. J. C. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, before we proceed with Orders of the Day, I rise on a point of privilege a matter affecting the privileges of the House and not just any one member of the House. Mr. Speaker, under legislation passed by this House, known as the ~1elville Pulp and Paper Limited Authorization of Agreement Act, 1966- 1967, Subsection 3,

Section 4 of that Act, requires that every agreement, trustee, trust indenture, guarantee, contract, undertaking, or any other agreements of every nature •~hatsoever entered into executed and delivered oursuant to this Act shall be laid by the Hinister before the Legislature •~i thin fifteen days after it has been so entered into executed and delivered. If the Legislature is then in Session and if not then •~ithin fifteen days after the commencement of. the next ensuing Session. Now Mr.

Speaker, the whole Province understands that or is led to believe that in November of 1969, there 1~ere agreements and indentures and contracts entered into by the Government and executed under the orovisions of this Legislation. Despite this, despite the direction in this Legislation nassed House 2.. ·. · .. : by this House that such agreements be tabled in thistwithin fifteen days after the Session commences, and I believe the Session commenced on February 18.

These documents have not been tabled in accordance 1.-ith the directions of this House, which I submit is a breach of the privileges of members of this House, the Government and }linister responsible being in default of a Legislative directive. I accordingl:,.• have a ~lotion here Hr. Speaker, that one must have in connection 1·7ith a matter of breach of privilep;e, Nhich states: lffiEREAS a Helville Pulp and Paper Limited authorization of Agreement Act 1966-67 • In Act Number 44 the Statutes of Newfoundland 1966-67 requires a I I 3 11 .· . . ·-·- ... ·--.-...

--"'-~-----.....:.. .. Jl~ ~arch 9, 1970 'l'aoe (,!252 Paj!:e 3 }linister of the Crown designated by the Lieutenant-Governor-in- Council to lay before the Legislature within fifteen days after the commencement of the next ensuing Session every agreement trustee trust indenture, guarantee, contract, undertakin~ or any other agreements of every nature whatsoever entered into executed and delivered pursuant to the Melville Pulp & Paper Authorization of Agreement Act.

AND \~EREAS it is understood that the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council has entered into certain agreements with Helville Pulp and Paper Ltd., and others pursuant to the }!elville Pulo and Paper Limited Authorization of Agreement Act, as announced publicly by the hon. the Premier.

RE IT RESOLVEn that this House of Assembly censure the ~1inister of the Crovm designated by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council under the provisions of the '·!elville Pulp and Paper Limited Authorization of Agreement Act and the Government for its failure to observe the provisions of the Helville Pulo and Paner Limited Authorization of Agreement Act 1966-67. by laying before the Legislature all such agreements, trust deeds, trust indentures, guarantees, contracts, undertakin~s or any other agreements of everv nature to~ hatsoever, entered into executed and delivered pursuant to the said Act within fifteen days after the commencement of this Session of the House of Assembly and directs the said }!inister designated and the Government to comply with the law of the Province of Newfoundland immediately by so tabling every agreement trustee, trust indenture, guarantee, contract, undertakinj!: or any other agreement of everv nature '' hatsoever entered into executed and delivered nursuant to the Act immediately in comoliance with the law.

Hr. Speaker, I submit that this is a serious matter, these are agreements in which the •people of this Province are involved and guarantees up to $53. million we are entitled under the Legislation to have them tabled in this House. The Session has now been in orortress nineteen days, at least the nineteenth day has now been reached after the commencement of the Session, and I therefore move this Votion , seconded by the hon. member for St. Barbe South. MR. SHALLl{flOn: ~!r. Sneaker, todav is the twelvth dav of the ~cssion - HR. CROSlliE: · It is the nineteenth day - I I 3 s .. ..--• ~ - 4··-- ,...::,..A~ .f

J1.J '·!arch 9, 1970 Tane il 252 Page 4 !-!R. S'1ALLHOOD: Today :rr. Speaker. is the twelvth day, and we have three days to go and the hon. gentleman's :·rot ion is therefore our of order in my view. In the second place I doubt that this is the proper time in the sittin,;,; of the House to move such a elation .iust before the calling of Orders of the Day. The han. gentleman had ample onnortunity earlier in this sitting to move it when he might have done it properly.

I believe it is imnroperly done no~r. and that in any case as ·: to the substance of the :lotion I believe it is out of order because today is only the t'velvth dav of the session Sir. ~1R. CROSJliE: :1r. Sneaker, I Hould like to re,ly to thP. point n.ised by the han. the Premier. The wording of the Le,;,;islation is nuite clear Mr. Speaker, if not then within fifteen da:,rs not fifteen sitting davs, then within fifteen days after the commencement of the next ensuing session. The Session commenced on February 18, 197(1 - todav is the nineteenth day following the commencement of the Session.

If sitting days lvas meant then clearly Hr. Speaker, the Legislation would state fifteen sitting days. That is one point. As far as the nroper timing of raisin;! a Poi.nt of Privilege, the book of Standing Orders and Beauchesne state, that it is the practice in the Canadian House of Commons to bring up a Ouestion of Privilege before the House has taken up the husiryess of the dav. Hm.,ever, the proceedings of the House may be interruPted at any time excent nuring a Division by Hotion based on a matter of Privilege. So I submit Hr.

Speaker, that this 1-lotion is quite in order as far as time is concerned, ancl that there has been a prima facie breach of the directions in this Legislation. The Legislation does not say fifteen sitting days, it says within fifteen days after the commencement of the next ensuing Session. HON. L. R. CURTIS (President of the Council): Hr. Speaker, I would like to call your attention and the attention of the House and hon. friends to the fact that on the opening day, which is a Wednesday, this House adjourned until tomorrow !>!onday. And I submit that in the eyes of the House of Assembly the days are sitting days.

Every time 1ve adiourn ue adjourn until tomorrmJ IJhatever day that happens to be. In the eyes of the House tomorrmJ

JH March 9, 1970 Tape 11252 Page 5 is the next sitting day. And I might say further in reply to that I had these documents on my desk since Friday, I intended to file them today and I forget to bring them up. Actually we have been so busy occupied here, every afternoon and every night, that I have not had a chance to check through and make sure that there are no documents missing. But the documents are on my desk and they will probably be filed this afternoon. }fR. A. J. NURPHY (Leader of the Opposition): Hr. Speaker, I heard you intimate you would take the matter under advisement.

I would like to add a few words that from my recollection in the years I have been in the House it has been fifteen days notwithstanding whether it is sitting days or not. And tvith reference to the Premier's objection at the time on that the matter tvas raised I think Sir, that ~·ou :<.M your ~!isdom allm.,ed the thing to he raised, and I do not knotv if it a ref] ection on your knowledge of Parliamentary procedure. But I am willing to go along Sir with your judgement, but I feel that it is a verv valid question that has been raised, and we look forward to your judgement on this matter. HR.

SPEAKER: The matter is under advisement. NR. HTJRPHY: Hr. Sneaker, I tolould like to direct a question to the t·~inister of Finance and that is '"hen he expects to bring the Jludget into the House and the Estimates? HR. JONES: Hr. Speaker, notice will be given in time. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: No.

(3) The !!on. the Hinister of Finance to move that the House /I 3 7

M~rch 9, 1970, Tape 253, Page 1 -- apb ~lotion: That the Rouse resolve itself into a Co=ittee of the Whole to consider the granting of Interim Supply to Her Majesty: MR. E.JONES: (~linister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I wish to announce that I have a message from His Honour the Lieutenant Governor: HR.

SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Finance: I,the Lieutenant Governor of the Province of Newfoundlar.d, transmit estimates of sums required for the public services of the Province for the year ending the 31st. day of March 1971, by way of Interim Supply and in accordance with the British North America Act 1867 as amended. I recommend these estimates to the House of Assembly. Mr. Speaker left the Chair: Signed: E.A.Harnum Lieutenant Governor COHHITTEE OF THE 1ol!J:OLE ON INTERIH SUPPLY }!R.

CHAI~!.<\N (Noel): Order Resolution: That It Is Expedient To Introduce A ~easure To ~rovide Ear The Granting To Her Hajcsty For Defraying Certain Expenses Of The Public Service For The Financial Year Ending The Thirty First Day Of March One Thousand Nine Hundred And Seventy-One The Initial Sum Of Sixty-One Million Six Hundred A.;d Eighteen Thousand Dollars. HR. CHAim!AN: Does the resolution carry? }IR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I presume that this is the motion that is debatable. The resolution asks this hen. House, the Government asks this hen.

House to precede now with granting the Government and Her Majesty $61, 618, 00~. Interim Supply for next year. That is money for the Government to commence spending on April 1st.1970, in the next year. Not Supplementary Supply, not extra additional money the Government has spent this year that has to come in for Supplementary Supply, but Interim Supply for n~xt year. The Government is now requesting Mr. Chairman a vote, a blind vote really of $61,618,000. Now this is only March 9th. Mr.

Chairman and the Government has until the end of March to bring down the Budget or to bring down the estimates and do things in the regular way. Certainly Mr. Chairman, I certainly take this view that the House should not be asked to vote Interim Supply to vote the Government $61,618,000. without at least the estimates of expenditure for the next year before us. Surely Hr. Chairman, when a House of Assembly or a Parliament is asked to vote I I] ,f . ' ~ .. ,..,.....- ,·

- - --'- ~-----~--- ·- --- - -·--- --- --- - - - -- }~rch 9, 1970, Page 2, Tape 253, -- apb substantial suns of money for a Government it should at least have before it, as is the practice in the House of Commons, and certainly in the House of Commons in the United Kingdom, the estimates, the detailed estimates for the coming year. j Now Mr. Spe~~er, this is an amount of $61 million which is almost one would guess twenty per cent of the Government's expenditure for next year. That the Government is now asking this House to vote in block, and under the Bill there will be certain lump su= for each department.

I ~ubmit Hr. Chairman, that the members of this House should refuse to vote the Government Interim Supply unless the Government is prepared to table now, or in the next several days the estimates of e':penditure in de<::ai1 for next year, and the total required for next year, I refer Mr. Chairman, to Beauschene, Parliamentary Rules and Forms page 198. It is one of the old standing principles of our constitution that the House of Commons should control the finances of the country, that is the right, privilege, and duty of the House.

It has been achieved by means of struggle lasting through centuries beginning from the fourteenth century down to the seventeenth century, ••l1en it -was fully confirmed, and since then it has never been disputed. The cardinal principle on ~<hich the whole of our financial system is based is that of Parliamentary control and by this is understood not the control of Parliament in its constitutional sense, but controlled by the Commons alone. Of course Mr. Speaker, we are the Commons and Senate all in one in this House.

The ancient doctrine that the redress aggrievances should be consid8red before the grant of supply is maintained in the House of Commons of Canada. On page 202 Mr. Chairman, Deauschene refers to supplementary estimates, and he says about supplementary estimates " When treated as customary and as a matter of course, instead of being restricted to occasion of unforseen contingencies, do more to destroy effectual Parliamentary control than any other indirect method that could be devised, because ·, it loosens up Parliamentary control of spending. That is supplementary estimates." Of course Hr.

Chairman, when supply is called for and the House goes into Committee of Supply page 210, it gives an opportunity for the debate of grievances and of many questions of policy. I refer also ~lr. Chain:>an, to Parliament by 1-1. Iver Jennings who has been referred to favourably in this House. The function he says on page 295, of the Committee of Supply is to examine and consent to the estimates. Now Hr. Speaker, we have no estimates here ;;:]'(

---~-- --·-- -- - -~- }larch 9, 1970, Tape 253, Page 3 -- apb except block votes to examine and consent to. ~e goes into the whole business of course, of control, of Parliament's control through the Committee of Supply, and the Co=i ttee of Ways and :·leans. Hr.

Speaker, my submission is that the members of this House, certainly the private members of this House should refuse to blindly vote the Government this Interim Supply of $61,618,000. without the Government, unless the Government is prepared to table the estimates for next year in this !louse so that we can see what is the total vote for next year, what is the total vote in the various departments. lfuat are the detailed proposals for expenditure.

We all realize that if the House goes beyond March 31st. without giving the Government some Interim Supply that the Government would not be able to pay its bills, would not be able to pay civil servants salaries and the rest of it, but and therefore of course, we have to be reasonable and do what we could to see that that did not happen. But in return Hr. Spe::;!cer, the Government rr.ust be reasonable and the only power that the House of Assembly has over the executive Government, one of the only powers is that power of the purse.

Our right to knc1> in detail what the Government proposes to spend, and on what, and when, and how. This In teri

r) Su?ply Bill Mr. Speaker, I submit is number 1, too large. If the Government could operate several months on it next year without this House of Assembly ever having approved in detail their spending, and that it is being asked for without our being given the estimates of expenditure for the next year, which I submit is not Parliamentary practice. It is certainly not good practice, and if this Government Hr. Chairman wants the support of the House in the matters that it brings before it, then it should ' consider also the rights of members in this House.

And since this is the time to bring up grievances I refer again,although I will not dwell in any length ' HON. E.M.ROBERTS (Minister of Health): Hr. Chairman, if I may to a Point of Order Sir, may I refer the hon. gentleman who has been so thorough in his reading of Beauschene to page 198, citation 234~1 the time to bring up grievances is when the motion that the Speaker do now leave the Chair is made. Sir, the Speaker has left the Chair and that is why Jour Honour is Chairman. I think the hon. gentlemans statements are out of order at this time, at another time they might be quite appropriate. They might Sir.

HR. CROSBIE: Hr. Chairman, since I have not had a chance to express ~hat the grievance is I will not call it a grievance. I will just discuss any matter of Government Policy that I feel needs to be discussed, and Hr. Chairman it appears to be the policy of the Government to ignore the rights of other members of this I I 'I c ...... --.--·---- ~~

~~rch 9, l9i0, Tape 253, Page 4 -- apo House by refusing them adequate office space in the precints of the House of Assembly RON. j. R. SHALL:WOD (Premier): Point of Order. The hem. gentleman now is proceeding to violate the rules, blatantly and brao.enly. NR. CROSBIE: Is there a Point of Order Hr. Chairman or is there not7 }ffi.. SHALWOOD: Let me state my Point of Order, and I know how to state it. MR. CROSBIE: Well your are not stating the proper thing now MR. SHALU100D: And the hon. gentleman is not supposed to use the words "you" or "your 11 MR. CROSBIE: Well the hon. gentlemas is not MR. S}lf..LLh'OOD: Hr.

Chairman, the time to express any grievance is when there is a motion before the Chair, Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and go into a Committee of the lfuole on Supply. That is the only time that there is the right tp speak to a question of grievance. \o.'hen the House goes into Committee of the Hhole, then the rule of relevancy applies automatically. The relevant remarks now, the House being in Co~ittee of Supply is as to whether or not this money, this Interim Supply should be granted. This is not an occasion like the debate on Address in Reply or the Budget Speech.

For any kind of a ranging speech, or talking a!:Jout grievances, or the general policies of the Government the question is very narrow. Shall the Government be granted Interim Supply pending the bringing down of the Budget and the Estimates. That is all. ~m. CROSBIE: Hr.

Chairman, in connection 1~ith that Point of Order I would -. submit that when the House is in Committee of Supply, being asked to vote Interim Supply of $61,618,000. it is relevant and in ' fact widely held over a long period of time that any matter of Government Policy in connection ~ith the expenditure of these funds can be discussed by the members, and that we are not held down to any ••• How Hr. Chairman can there be any narrowing of debate when the Government comes before the House asking for $61, million for tw~nty departments7 ~m.

CHAIRHAN: I think the ruling I have to make is that if there is a particular grievance which a member wishes to raise he has to do that on the motion that the Speaker leave the Chair. That the debate now must be restricted to the rule of relevancy on the resolution which is before the Committee. }ffi.. CROSBIE: ~!r. Chairman, I refer Your Honour to Beauschene page 210, wherein Beauschene says "our Conw-ll.ttee of Supply consists of 264 members who can hardly be expected to consider effectively the details of finance and so on. A body II .:.; / . ·- •' -·· ----- -;p-

---- ·--__......_-- Harch 9, 1970, Tape 253, Page 5 - apb so large and so ill-equipped for enquiry would be a very imperfect instrument for the control of expenditure even if the discussions were devoted entirely to that end. But these discussions afford the only opportunity in the course of the year for the debate of grievances and of mar,y questions of policy." That is what Beauschene says. MR.

CHAIRMAli: I agree with the hon. member but I think the procedure that we have to follow here is clearly set out in page 198, paragraph 234 - 1, and while . it is true that grievances may be raised on a question t~hen the money comes before the House, the redress of grievances should·be considered before they go into supply and so on. That is taken on the motion that the Speaker leave the Chair. We a·re in Committee now, and there has been referred to us only this particular resolution, and members must I feel adher to the rule of relevancy and discuss this resolution only. HR. CROSBIE: Very good Hr.

Chai=an, while dealing then with this resolution Mr. Chairman the Government in my submission is now asking this House to vote the Government $61,618,000. for next year without a jot or tittle of information on how the Govern~ent plans to spend the money or on what, When this motion was introduced before this hon. committee ther~ was not a person on the opposite side of the House stood to give outline in detail what this money was stood on. It appeared to be the assumption of the Gov<c.rnment that the member:; of this House were just going to vote $61 million without asking for any explanation.

It tvas not proceeded by any introduction, and Hr. Chairman this appears to be part of the policy of the Government. Do not give them any information except what they can absolutely hammer out of us. This is in line with the policy that has been adopted in other respects in the House. The difficulty in getting information, and the same thing now applies to this Interim Supply Bill. I submit Mr. Chairman, that this is a derogation Mr. Chairman MR. SHALLWOOD: It is not a Bill, the Bill is not before the House, this is a resolution, the Bill is to follow MR. CHAIRHAN: Order . . - - ... ---- ---x.

~ ~ . . . .. ... . -·· ::2rch. 1 1 ~ iO . MR.CROSBIE: :·_;r ""bmission,this is a derogation of the authority of this House for the govel"!'.ment to approach this in such a cavalier fashion. He all realize Hr. Chairman that there will be a Bill that is being tabled now or was a few minutes ago, and that this 1-1ill show under various deparments just one amount of money.

It will give us no detail and the point that I am making is that no House of Asse~bly or no parliament should be asked to vote any government interim blindly unless at least having bef~re that House the -estimates for next year, and t~e procedure Hr. Chairman, at the House of Corn.:nons in Ottawa and in the United Kingdom is that the estimates are tabled in the House long before the government asks for interim supply.

And in fact the government may have to ask for interim supply on several occasions during that session, and that He should be treated no differently here that our rights are just as sacred as representing the people of Ne~Jfoundland in control of the financial affairs of tkc>' Province all the money has to be voted by this l'ouse ,;.:,J we should be treate d in exactly the same ~ray.

And that the government should not come before this House three Heeks, tHenty-one, t~Jenty-t~>O days before the end of the financial year and ask us to vote about t"enty per cent of next year's expenditures ~-1i thout presenting the estimates and giving us a fuller explanation. This is another change ~ir. Chair:nu.n, in the policy of the government that should be made, Another change that is badly needed like the change in the treatment of the Public Accounts and the Report of the Auditor General.

And the c!:<:nge that should be made in givin-g us information ~Jillingly without !,edging about questions and going by the literal ~vordinG and the rest of it, Such as \,•e have been treated to fer the last t~~o weeks. \-le a:::e here on behalf of our constituents and the rest of the people of :-lewfou::dland representing lh(irivate members of this Rouse and asking this government which has had uncontrolled pnwer for the last tv7enty-one years, to now start explaining to us Hhy they need this money, why it is $61 million instead of perhaps $20 million or $25 million. It should be Mr.

Chairman the lo"est possible amount the Government needs until it can get its budget down for next year and the esti •,\ates dovm and approvr!d, It should be just what they need to sneak throu gh 0 i:ot to come into this House and ask us for $61 million, 1-.•hich is going to cover at least t~,·o months operations for the Go·•ernment and perhaps even more. So I therefore move l!r. Speaker, Hml. DP... F.\-/ .!'.0\~Ciin. of Ecucation): Before the han. gentleman sits down I wonder II £f .5 - -- ---·----

Tape 254 pa ge 2. if he would permit a question, Mr. Speaker~ I am listening to his protestations against this, by infw~enc7 irregular wa:; he said he does not u:·rierstand why we do not use the regular way I have been •~ondering, •·1hy, in the five or six years the hon. gentleman has been in this House, several years at any rate he has been here. This is not anything irregular. This has been done more times than not done.

In the twenty-one sessions that I have attended this has been done more times than it has not been done, and I am wondering why 1my hon. friend waited until tuis time to protest against it, lie 1~as in this House when it •·ras done before, it was done last year, justc:a year ago, why is/~~ waited nntil now to protest and find that this is a denial of the democratic rights of the Hcuse'1 He must knoH it has been done here for t•.renty-one years. That is my question Hr. Chaiman, why does he ••ait? HR.C!'.OSBIE: The ans•~er to that should be quite obvious.

But ftrst, I an not sure that the Governc-:ent has come before this Housa in every previous session ,;. s:a.::h c:s this MR.ROHE: I did not say every previous session. }m.CROSTIIE: And ask for Interim Supply, in this way. l·ffi. S~!ALL~IOOD: He did not say ''every·; HR.Rm11':_!_ I did nut say " every~ MR.CROSBIE: Well every year, or whatever the hon. ;r,ember did say. HR.SHALLHOOD: He did not use the l<.•ord "every" at all; he did not use th:! 1mrd "every~ HR.CROSBIE : ~!r. Chairma.."'l, I exercised the pre::ogative of mercy by allowing the hon. minister to ask a question.

I did not ha•1e to let him, allo•; him/to permit ,) i·' to ask a question - HR.S:.ft..r.LHOOD: Oh lrhat a big-hearted statesman, HR.CROSBIE: At this particular time, as Mr. Chairman knows, and nol-1 the hon. minister is going to quibble with every word I use in answering it. I do not know whether this e~act procedure Mr. Chairman, has been used before in previous years but in previous years I was subject to the discipline of the government party. (!/ And.:':·!hatever my views were._ were not pn the tr.atter, they were not requested, they ~~ ere not invited and the y 1•ere not consulted.

I am no~; sitting in this House as an Independent Liberal not subject to party di s cipline, and I am ~Qt. HR.CHAIRHAN: Order please! The hon. member's position is interesting but the Bill, the resolution. HR.CROSlliE: Yes, }!r. Ch.1irman, but I am just arswerinr; his question. The point II<; L/ . . '· ., . --· ---- ·_,.., ,

~:arch<f 1970. Tq:H! 25'·· pa~;e 3. is ~Ir. Speaker, the question is quite irrelevant, that this is a serious matter that Interim Supply should not be requested without the det~iled est~mates in this way, this Government could have stetted this session of ;:he House much sooner,it has been meeting afternoon end night si:<·~e we did start,if t3e estimates are not ready now certainly they should be ready because they start to be prepared by the Government I believe in the fall of each year and I therefore =ve }!r.

Speaker, and I further suggest that the arno•mt· requested is unreasonable it is too great and I therefore move Mr. Chairman that the Chairman leave the Chair without making any report, seconded by the hon. member fer St. Barbe South. ~!R.S~fP.LU!OOD: Hr. Speaker it is not the hon. gentleman's privilege tc make such a motion. It is the Government that has the right to call the time of the House the business of the House not any hen. ~>,entler.1an sitting on the opposite side. Your Honour I simply cannot accept that motion.

Your Honour can accept a motion only - MR.C!!AI~!A~l: Order please: rhe position is that we are nm• in Comnittee of the \\Thole on a particular resolution, and the only motion the Chair can entc:~·tain is an amendment to this particular resolution. ~·'iR.C'!.OSiliE: I have the floor I am referring ttl page 203 of Beauchesne. h'here it is stated the only motion allcHed uhen the resolution is under consideration in Com.01ittee of Supply is that the amount be reduced or that the Cha±rman leave the Chair, zither Hithout making a report or to report pror,ress on certain resolutions I therefore submit Hr.

Chairman that in accordance with Beauchesne my motion that the Chairmnn do now leave the Chair without making a report is quite in order. In accordance with Beauchesne who is used .:os a ~uide in this House Parliamentary Proced•Jre. HR.SHALL\JOOD: Mr. Speaker, the House of Assembly since Confederation has met for in each of 21 years, this is noH the tl~enty-first year, since Confederation. Of the tlventy-one years Interim Supply has been sought in fourteen years, fourteen sessions.

Last year, I believe the year before, this makes the fourteenth year in the twenty-one years in which Interim Supply has been sought of the House through Com.-nittee of Supply. The reason always is that the Government fearing that it may not be able to bring the budget down together ~>ith the estial!ltes of expenditure for the coming year in time for the beginning of the coming year 1-1hicii is April 1, frequently brings in a request for Interim Supply. I have never known Tequest to come for less than t~e•o months supply.

It h:1s been three and sometimes four months, but this year it is t-.o, Lt h2..,: Eev.:r ~ .. c''"n less than t,yo /I -'l 5- . . . . . -- ~- -~:.r~.

.. ...... . '-- _,. ... _\..,..;;;oo ;~::c:. if 1970. page 4. ;nonths supply, Interim Supply. "ow we are r;oing to ll\ove tonorrow that the House of Assembly at its rising at 11 p.m. tomorrow shall adjourn ~ntil some date in the month of April. Tomorrot.; t>ill be the final sitting if the Government's motion for adjournment is accepted by ~ the House for some weeks. Five of the ministers are leaving Net>foundland on Hednesday night, leaving Gander on 1\'ednesday night for Europe. ~·le ~rill be gene about a t•eek. There is Easter week and that is tt>O weeks.

It might be said Your Honour that five ministers of the Crmm gone from the ~~ouse of Assembly the House could carry en and that of course is literally true, stric~ly true. But with the Leader of the House my hen. friend the President of the Counc'!.l, :·lini:ster of Justice going,uith the rremier going, and thre8 other ministers gain~ from the House it is the feelin[l of the Govern~ent that it would be a sound practise for the House to adjourn during that period.

And as there is another Hoek, Holy Heek during "hich the House has alw:qs or normally adjourned, thnt is .:; fortnight, and tJhen the House does re-aasembl,1, there Hill not only be the r.liltter of the budget and the matter of the estimates of expendirure for the ensuing year the coming year but there will be other matters of greatest possible il:lportance to the Province. to cor..a before the House and so therefore ue come to the House today askinr; for Inter:!.n Supply as He have done on thirteen other ccc2s:!.ons since Confederation.

I ilnd t·Te are asking for t'•':':"K•r:.ths suppl:r, enough to aarry the Government foncard for ttw months from April 1. The departmental breakdmm is not contained in the resolution now before Your Honour but it is contilined in a Bill t.;hich would be brought for:.,.ard immediately after the Committee disposes of the resolution. And the breakdtmn that is given is the nnrmal breakdm;•n it is exactly the sa1:1e, except in th~ figure, the figures opposite each department, it is exactly the ~arne as haa been done year in year out for thirteen years before this year. No variation no difference whatsoever.

Furthermore }!r. Speaker, never has Interim Supply been requested in this House never, before Confederation or since Confederation~ Never in the histo~y of this House .has interim supply been sought, ~fter the estimates tvere tabled, always interim supply is sought before the esti: :><~. tes are tabled and there is a reason for that. The reason being this that the prilctise in this House has always been to bring dmm the budf;et speech and the estimates at the same time. In other Houses estir.~ates are tabled substilntially in advance of the date of the bud~et speech. But not so in ..

~~arch f 1970. Ta?e 254 page 5 . this House our long established practise in this House is to bring dotm the Budget Speech and the Estimates of eY.:penditure in the one day .Hhen the !1iniste:r of Finance, 'l''ho I regret had been called out tJE the Cha!:'ber with other ministers to meet with Canada's President of the Treasury Board, the Ron. C.H. Drury, who with these ministers is now holding a conference on the floor belot~ dealing l·;ith :Lmportant matters affect:i,.ng this Province. The Hinister of Finance '~hen he delivers his budget speech then moves that the House go into Committee of Supply, Hr.

Speaker leaves the Chair, the Deputy Speaker takes the Chair of Committee and then the Hinister of Finance tables the estimates so that both come in the same day, the Budget speech and the estimates, and by then ancl l'ell before then interitl supply has been requested and granted, if there is interim supply. lfuere the budget speech can be brour;ht dolm and the estimates for the coming year tabled before the beginning of the financial year there is then naturally no interim supply, none is needed. granted The money is . -- ........... -- -----~ '

!:arch ?th. 1970 Tape 255 PK - 1 granted on the esti~mtes c.nd on the budr;ct speech. l·it!ere there ls any doubt that the budget speech and the esti!:'.atcs c:m be brou~ht dm·m and considerad by tl1e House before the beginning of the Financial Year, Interim Su?ply is the only tmy of getting sufficient ~oncy tc keep the Government going until the bud~et is brought down, and until the es tirnates are brought dotm. ~Jot-7, Sir, I am only describing the situation as it has always been in this House.

I I an not suggesting that we depart, that t<e innovate, that we introduce sorr.ething new, I . am u:erely describing t~hat has ah1ays been our practice in this !louse. I want also, Hr. Chairm:.n, to dratv your attention to the fact that Interim Supply is commonly sought in the Parliament of Canada. And Interim Supply is cor..monly sought also in the House of Co=o ns at h'estmir.ster, and Interim Supply is coT:Omonly sou ght in parlial:'.entary bodies tl1rou[;hout the British Common'W'ealth and Empire, wherever elective 2.S<eT.blies e':ist. In Ottat ·7a, they frequentl y ask for Interim Supply.

And I reme mber one yea r under the Premiership of the l'.ight l'ononro.ble John G. Diefenbaker, I remember on" year . un.:~r his Premiership of Canada, they Here ·asl:ing for t~·Telve r.:onths not supply, and got it Hithout a budget speech and •.oJithout estir.mtes, well/without esti~ates but without: the bud r:et speec h , ••ithout any attempt on the part of the Hinis ter . of Finance to e:r.pl~in ·,:here the money was coming from, or hoH he proposed to raise it or/and t·Iithout any e:·:planation:·>·lhatsoever of hotl he i .. t proposed to find/the twelve months, Hr.

Chairman, t u elve r.:onths Interim Supply •~as requested, and granted by Parliament, the full amount. Nor:nally twelve !l'.onths supply is not requested as Interim Supply, normally three or four months or may be four or five ;:-,onths Interim Su pply t·mL•ld be request.,d, in our case, in our House, it is has been t ~1o, three ar.d sor:>e.times four months. At the present time, it is t•m months supply.

And ~·re are quite confident that before the two months supply is granted, if granted · by this COI:'Jnittee and the House, followin~ the committee, if the supply is granted to the Government we are quite confident that before it is spent, the budget speech would be brought down, the estimates will be brought dot-m in this House, and the liouse given every conceiveable opportunity its heart can suggest, to debate every last individual item of e~:penditure, that is in the Corr.:nittee of Suppl~;, and to debate the bud~et speech in the re gular budc;et debate.

The:ce will be every possible opportunity, but as \o.'e intend, to propose to the House tomorrow ni~ht adjournment until sonetime in earl y April, "'e are asking for this Interim i I 'i ,\- . - --..----·-·--.

!·larch 9 ti1. 19 70 Tape 255 PK- 2 Supply and in so doing follov;ing the perfectly normal proc2dure of this House for over a hundred years .. !lR. llO~: The rr.otion that uas I!'.D.de by the han. member for St. John's \\'est that the Chairman leave the Chair "ithout repo::t, and that is now the question before the Corrmittee. NR. A. J. HDRPHY: Hr. Chairnan, speaking on that motion, I speak as one ~1ho has never been subject to party disclipine. I speak as one who had been seven years on this side of the House repeatin;; the same ar~?,uments over and over again.

So I do not think there is any inference in the hon. Hinister of Education remarks, about the merr.ber of St. John's Hest that applies to me. Nov1 I am berinning to, Cln:On?. other thincs, consider this Govern ment as a Government in a hurry. People 1-lill recall >o:hen this House of Assembly opened a fe;., l<eeks betel~. we had to meet afternoon, and ni p,ht, there was so much to be done, the people of the rrovince excepted us to be here. the )• were payin g us to be here .

On the official announce ment on radio station V.O.C.f!. this morning, I presume it 'Oras official, I heard the Pre:nier say that: the !louse may adjourn. NoH it has been confir:;;ed here this afternoon that ~·7e are going to adjourn for three wee1:s, heceuse the Premier, and I thin~ four cabincot ministers, 2-nd I do not knm·." ~'ho else, have to r,o to England for this signing of this docu r.1ent. It still ler.ves t~;o enty-five nenbcrs on the other side of the house. They have a comfortable majority.

Today v.'e brinr in this S<1pply Bill, the first motion r.wcie,and perhaps, people, I think all memhers are pretty well Lrwiliar Hith it, the first motion made that the Rules of the House be sus,ended. Nm.r this in essence mec.~s that to introduce a Bill in this l{ouse; l·."e eive it first readinp. on one day. The second day it is given second reading, anu then we ;:;o into com;;>ittee on it. In otherwords, it is a three day effort just about, am I right in this Hr. Chairman? Basically, I thinl~ I am right. But 1./e bring in this Bill to grant the Government or the Queen $61 million.

Now basically we could have a couple of ciays perhaps to r.o into this thing, but no, t, e cannot do this. This all mu"t be discussed this very r.1oment in this Eouse nnd for the next feH rdnutes or hours or Fhatever the case may be. t·.'hat is all the hurry? I h;we asked this on so rr..:my tlme" nnu I h.:~ve yet to ret a satisfactory ans,·:er. h'by \ole have been driven on this sid~ in /1 +'/ ' -.. ...- . .- ... - .. .

::arch 9th. 1970 Tape 255 PK - 3 the passed tHo IJeeks? Afternoon and nip._ht in the House, and in the morning tryin~ to do a bit of ~mrk to prepare for it. He are r;rantinp; approximately three months supply to the Government, $61 nillion, and these are millions, not tho~sands, not hundreds, these are S61 millions. I asked the hon. Ninister of Finance on Orders of the Day, when the budget ~~as expected to be brought down with the estimates? He will be ad,!ised, we ;1ill be advised, no not next week or next month or something else.

On February 6th. there ~<as a quotation, attributed to the Prer.~ier from one of the daily papers, ''Premier Sro<:.llwood says, he does not kno~·7 'When the budget will be brought dm<'n in the House of Assembly, but predicted that it might be around the ~r.iddlf"_Of }larch. All government departments have completed their estir;:ates of revenue expenditure, and the esti:~:ates are now in the hands of the Provincial Cabinet." NoH this was a TI'Onth, just about over a month ar,o. All these estir :v)tes have been submitted, aJ1d are in the hands of the Cabinet.

Now, I t·1ould suggest that it r.Jould have been far better for this House of Assembly to haye one sessi0n a day to give these Cabinet Hinisters a chance to pr~pare the budget, "hich is after all the guts, if you lil~e, of this Province, the money \·:re have, H~re are \le roing to spend it? h"ne;:c are we 80ing to r:et it? I think this is Hhat tJe all operate en, if we have no money to spend on public services, He must give up public services. I have heard state!l'.ents through the pass~} couple of \·.'eeks.

The hon. l!inister of Health says, he is going: to give a $100 thous<;nd to Grand Falls for somethinz that happened in the hospital out there, defect in the hcatinf, syste~; The 1 hon. the Hinister of Education says there is $500·,000 for t\1e hi gh school education, and if these thinrs have all been said, we do not knm, , Hr. Chairman, until the estimates are brought dmm, and '.<'e can just r.et a chance to go into them to see where these dollars are being spent aad ' in ''= • . ..-isdom on this side.

And in the interest of the people of Kevfoundland, He think these monies should not be expended, we have to vote against them, this is our fizht. Now today as I say, we are asked not to consider it today, and perhaps we can talk about it tor.~orrow and then vote on it the next day, no. This very day, tJe must vote to give the Govern!!lent $61 million. l·:ho said that? l-lho said that? }!R. ~!URPHY: There will be a Bill introduced. ----- - ·- -- --... -.:l,. .

Barch 9th. 1970 Tape 255 PK - 4 HR. SHALLIWOD: J./ho said that? Besides the hon. gentleMan that this day we must do that. Hho said that? HR. HURPHY: There will be a Bill introduced? ----- HR. SNALLIWOD: But, tvho said that? Besides that gentleman that this day we must do that. ~~o said that? HR. HUREHY: All right the debate continues, well why suspend the rules. }:ffi. Sl1ALLHOOD: The debate can go on all day to day, and all day tomorrow, and all day and all night tomorrot·l night. MR. HURPHY: Now if I can continue, I will accept that.

I will accept that, but as I say, this Resolution and the Bill, I presume, will have to be done in just the one period of time without first, second and third reading so on and so forth, it must be all put through at the one session. So, Hr. Chairman as I said earlier, the seven years that I have been in the House, we have always questioned the right of Government particularly are where we/only have three weeks away from the end of our Fiscal Year, the Fiscal Year ends at the end of }!arch. And by that time we should have had our estit:~ates down and our budget looked at.

But, this Government bas never, I will not. say never, very seldom met early enough in the year to give this House a chance to really consider these matters, which are very vital matters. These are the Millions, and millions, and millions of dollars that have been spent. So, I,}!r. Chainun, I can only support the motion as su!:mitted by the hon. member for St. John's \vest, because it is not anything different that we have been arguing in the passed number of years, I think, it has been brought in for fourteen years.

I think you will find if you want to check the records, that for fourteen years, the official opposition has still been raising the same questions, that let us have our estimates, let us have our budget, and then we can pass the thing, so as we can know what tve are voting these monies for. I ~m. H. R. V. EARLE: Nr. Chairman, there are just a couple of points I would wish to raise in this discussion.

The fact, that today twenty-two days before the commencement of the New Year, we are being asked to vote Interim Supplies, it seems to me all together too far ahead, and in so doing there has been no indication given us that the estimates are ready. It is true it happened other years, because I was a member on the other side of the House. Last year I was particularly familiar with it, because I tvas Hinister of Finance. And at the time Interim Supply was requested estimates were just about ready, if not II 5-/ ~ ~ ..... -- ···--:.::. .

Harch 9th. 1970 Tape 255 PK - 5 completely ready, which made of co~rse a considerable difference because they could be produced at any moment. Also, there is another very fundamental point, this happened last year also, the supplementary supply could nor~~lly pass far the current year, the year in which we are before Interim Supply was as~ed for. Last year that did not happen, Interim Supply was requested before supplementary supply was passed. In othen~ords, you are asking for money for next year, before you know what you have spend in the current year.

Hell, last year this was approved and agreed to, because supplementary supply was also ready, and was brought down in a few days of Interim Supply. Now, ti'e have had no indication yet of supplementary supply or what it is likely to be or when it is likely to is be brought into this !louse. And I think in fairness, this/infor~3tion this House is entitled to, that members should have some indication of supplementary supply, befoEe they vote on Interim Supply. HP.:_!_~f;LEX _!-l_I_9!JC.\N: Hr. Chairman, in support of the notion the hen. rr,ember for St.

John's Hest, the request for Interim Supply which is not unusual to this hen. J:ouse, nor is it something that is peculiar to it. Ra.ther it is a r~quest that you .,,ill find in most parliaments brou!lht about generally during the middle of the session, in most parlin.m~nts, ~lith the e:.::ception of this hen. House, because the Hause has been dilatory in passir.g the main estimrutes.

And the significant thing ubaut it is this, that in rr.ost parliar.:ents according to the Government of Canada by Mc&:;:egorc Dawson," 1Vhen the 3upply Bill comes before the !louse, or when Interim Supply is sought in the Resolution that comes before it, it states categorically the percentage that is being sought, in the Parliament of Canada it will read $X millions being one-tt~elveth of the fund necessary for Parliament and Government to function during the ensuing Fiscal Year". I Insofar as this present ..

Resolution is concerned, there is no indication other than an indication that is now been given by the hen. the Premier, but none in the Resolution itself, as to the period that this covers. \ole have been told this afternoon for the first time that it covers a period of t~v-o months. But this is simply an expression of opinion, ~le do not know if it is two months, or three months. It does not follow the accepted Parliament Procedure of saying this House is asked to vote $10 million or $60 million being one-twelveth of that re1:1uired by Her Hajesty's Government to function. I Is- 2

Harch 9th. 1970 Tape 255 PK - 6 And this right, :-1r. Speaker, of granting Interim Supply is one that is not treated very light}.y, and is not one that Parliaments have passed with a great deal of enthusiasm and a great deal frequency. In fact, most authorities on Parliamentary Procedure _indicate that because of the obvious necessity and to quote your words, Mr.

Ghairman, ''the right for the members of the House in their supremacy over the ~overnment to control the purse strings that when there is an immediate need for funds, the opposition is placed in a position where it can state the terms on which this urgency supply will be granted. And, Mr. Speaker, we are being asked in this Resolution to simply vote $61 million without the slightest indication other than in the Bill to follovT, as to what each department requires. -- -- -·· -~= ··

------------~- -~- Harch 9, 1970 Tape (!256 Page 1 ~ !R. HICK:lAN: Hr. Speaker, if we are going to do this, if He are going to he asked to pass Supply twenty-two days hefore the end of the _fiscal year. I think that we can be pardoned on this side of the House if He look upon this with some concern, because you <~ill recall Mr.

Speaker, that either before or just after the commencement of this Session in statements made by Ninisters of the Crmm, <<e '"'ere to have the lludget brought do<m in the very near future. \{e have no<~ been in Session since the middle of February, and up until no1-1 the logical assumotion that has been made by the oeorle of this Province, narticularly people ,.,hose very welfare denend uoon the bringing dmm of the Rudget. The Budget <.Jill be brought do<m very quickly and very early in Harch. Hell ~!r.

Speaker vJe nm~ hear for the first time that there Hill be no Rudr,et brought dm·m before the end of t!-tis fiscal year. Indeed vre no<-7 learn for the first time that this hon. House is goin ~ to he asked on tomorrm~ to adjourn until sometime in A nril. This means no Budget before the end of this fiscal year. This means no provision to meet the demands of certain public s~rvants, such as hospital <~orkers in this Province, before the end of this year. Nm~ Nr.

Speaker, I say that the Onposi tion is only doing its duty if on a Resolution such as this, or on a Hotion that is r.resently before the House, it refuses to simply go along <Jith the t;overnment' s request that this Bill now be nassed. !lecause :1r. SPeaker, if I may refer to some statements on this very matter that have been made, no one can accuse me of being unbiased in this or partisan, becrluse I very briefly refer to statements by three party leaders in Canada. When public finances are involved, said ~r. R. B.

Bennett, it is the duty of every member of the Opposition to endeavour to show '"hether the country F;Ot the F;reatest value possible . for its money. !·!embers may demand information in great detail and can hold up the Estimates until the desired material is produced. In 1931 the Liberal Opposition refused to pass Estimates until certain contracts had been nlaced before and examined by the Committee. Nr. M. J. Cald,.ell has stated the nosition of the private member in strong hut exaggerated terms.

Quote "There is one place and one place only in this Parliament where private members are supreme, //.)t; ' , __ ... ~ ~-

- ·--· -----· --~------~----:-· :-larch 9, 1970 Tape ;!256 Page 2 namely in Supply !vhen discussing the Estim~tes. This is His ~!a;esty's purse and the age-old right of members of Parliament is to decide to what extent His Hajesty's purse shall be filled. This is what we are doing no1J, and I certainly wish to protest against any precedent , being established that would curtail the right of this Parliament to discuss any matters in connection with the administration of the Ministers' deoartment. True it is Nr. Speaker, that in this hon.

House, Interim Sunply has been asked for on occasions when the main Estimates have not been tabled. But I submit Mr. Chairman that that does not make it right, because that Mr. Chairman is surely takin»: aHay from the members of this !louse-the right to question every item of Estimate, ever; item of Expenditure, hefore !Je decide in this hon. House to fill Her Hajesty' s purse. /md that i.s precisely what He are heing asked to do in this Resolution.

There is nothing in th~.s Resolution, nothing in the Rill Hhich ~7111 follow the r-esolution to give any details as to hov1 each department v1iU spend the monies that we are now being asked to vote.

Nor indeed is there any firm categorical statement in this Resolution which will have the effect of making it bindinp. on this House as to whether v.•e are voting for one-tvelvth of the monies req uired for lhe 'next fiscal year, or Hhether we are voting for one-third or one-quarter or a half or !·;hat it is. l~e have had simn ly one indication from the Leader of the r.overnm~nt that this constitutes t1m months Interim Sunnlv. ~!r.

Chairman. i.f this Bill is nm• o"!ssed. then surely the Governm•mt Hill have to ans1·1er. to this House no!J and re;o.sonably satisfv this Fouse. as to ,.,11y three 1veeks ago, or a month ago, the Bud~et for the fiscal year 1970-71 Has iust a short time aHay. It will certainly have to ans1ver to the public servants of this Province as to ~Yhy thev too will have to wait until after April for the bringing down of the Rudp.et.

And more than that, the Opposition '.olill certainly be called upon to anstver to the people if they allo!Y this type of expenditure to take place ~Yithout trvinp, at least to insist upon this House beinp, furnished Pith the details in far more narticularity th;m He find it before us today. And for that reason I ~ttoPort ~ !r. C:hairm!l.n, the ~ ration of the hon. the memher for St. John's \vest. ~!R. Sc:ALLIYOOn: Hr. Speaker, I announce 1Jith deen regret the death a fP.H minutes ar.o of ~: rs. Lillian R<1rbour, widO!J of the 1 ate r.antain Kev Bnr.bour I/ j·- s- ... -·...-- ---- ..

------'-'"----~------~---'--·- - -- ------~......._ _____ _ ~larch 9, 1970 Taoe !1256 Pa!(e 3 and mother of our member of the House for the district of Bonavista South. I am sure that our hearts go out to the han. member for Donavista South on the death of his mother. He has beer. called a~o.•ay from the Chamber and I am sure our hearts go t~ith him. }{r. Speaker, I have no comment to make on the remarks of the han. gentleman Hho just sat down except to say that for three years he voted is for this very thing that he now opposing as a matter of great and oroj:ound principle.

He has suddenlv discovered great principles that he did not notice the past years. The hon. ~entleman lvho ore ceded him, the present han. member for Fortune Bay is the very hon. gentleman Hho last year moved the very motion for Interim Suoply and he has this year suddenl y discovered some nefarious something or other about it that he had not noticed in earlier years. But it is amazing tvhat twentv odd feet differ ence will make. Hen sit here, here they are slaves, they are party disciolin~. Over there they have no party disciuline. The uarty discipline is only over here.

This may explain tvhy we' are still over here, and they are over there. l~e do have a party. h'<> do have narty discipline, and He do try to have loyalty to our oarty, so as to have strong Governuent, strong government. And t h ey do not huve oarty discipline over there, and that is perhaos why they are over there. Hr.

Speaker. the situation is really abundantly clear, Hhe ther tve are right or tvrong, Fhether it ought to be so, or ought not to be so, ,,,hatever is rip,ht or 1vrong, 10hatever oup;ht oD • ought not to be so, 1vhatever is ri ght or wrong, whatever ou ~• t or ought not to be so, t he fact , the fact is, that there is to be no Budget until next month. That is the fact, which means, because we lvill not be ready to bring it down. He are still as of this moment the Cabinet, not at this moment, because at this moment we are here in the Chamber, but the Cabinet are still dealing with the .

Budget, still dealing with the question of Civil Service salaries. Salaries for nurses, salaries for hosnital workers, salaries for policemen, salaries for firemen, salaries for tvardens in the Penitentiary. The Government are still goinR over that a gain and again. We have done endle ss exercises to see how much money lve can find to pay increases, and so we are not, I repeat not ready to bring the Bud ~ <'>t dmm Mr. Chairman, 1~e a.re not ready.

JW Harch 9, 1970 Tape it256 Page 4 Now whatever maybe said about that, it cannot be denied, it can be denounced, it can be condemned by anyone lvho has the wit or the voice to do it. And so be it, let them condemn it, but they cannot deny it. It is a fact that we are not going to bring the Budget down in 1vhat is left of the present financial year., because it is not ready. And we are not going to bring it down until sometime after the ne1v year begins.

Now Sir, that being so, when the first day of Anril arrives - if we do- .not have Interim Supply, we cannot spend one dollar legally, it is unlawful for the Government to spend a dollar which has not been voted by this House. That is why we are asking the House not to vote the full year 1 s supply, but two months supply. That is all. He have done it thirteen other years. This is the fourteenth year out of twenty-one.

Suddenly someone has discovered that it is nefarious, it is abominable, it is everythinf!; short of criminal, and the sar.te hon. gentlemen t-rho now find it to be so reprehensible a thing, year i.n and year out voted for it I when they lvere .?laves.

Now they are free men, they can see straight and they can reason straight, and they can be honourable, and they can be decent, and they can be statesmen, but I.Jhereas before they crossed the floor they were slaves, slaves 1dth the •~hin and the lash, lashing them in the hacks, and the great 1-relts coming on their backs, and ahle to sleen exce~t on their bellies, could not turn over on their backs, because of the welts of the slavery of party discipline. Nmv the hon. gentlemen across kno~1 how true that ill. They knmv hm-1 true it is that they ~<ere slaves, and they know hm• untrue it is. So ~lr.

Speaker, I am only ans~<ering the points that 1-1ere made. If the hon. gentlemen make points I suppose it is in order for me to answer them. No? lolell if they make points, if they make debating points - MR. CROSBIE: Hr. Chairman, on a point of order. lolhen I was answering a question asked by the Hon. the Minister of Education, the hon. the Premier was very quickly on his feet to cite the rule of relevancy, and now my point of order is this Mr. Speaker, that the Premier as he is so often been irrelevant, as the hon. gentleman has been so often, irrelevant and should be kept to the point. MR.

HURPHY: I wish to join with the hon. the Premier in our expression of . : . - ~- .~~ ... -- .

J l~ Harch 9, 1970 Tape 1.!256 Page 5 sympathy to the han. member for Ronavista South, and I Hould like on behalf of all of us to sav how sorry we are on the death of his mother. HR. CROSRIE: Before the han. Chairman puts the Hotion I would like to join first in the expression of our sympathy to the han. member for Bonavista South on the death of his mother, and we are all sorry of course that this has happened, and that the han. member has had to leave the House. Mr. Chairman, just before you put that Motion. It is an awfully poor argument Hr.

Chairman, that if something has been done even for one hundred years, or it has been done for thirteen times before, or if it has been done twenty-five thousand times before, that because a government was able to do and get away with something for thirteen years or tHenty years or one hundred years, that that practice should be continued. And the fact is Mr. Chairman that whether or not this Government has been able to ramrod Interim Su'[>ply throuf!;h this House of Assembly in previous years in this fashion, it should not be the practice any lonp.er. Nmv Nr.

Chairman, there is no point in the han. the Premier or any han. gentlemen ooposite raising his hue and cry, that if we do not oass Interim Supoly there ~;ill not be a cent to pay ottt of the Treasury on Anril 1. Every member of this han. House and every member of the oublic is quite aware that the Government has sufficient votes on this side of the House to pass this any 1vay they 1vish to have it passed. That does not gainsay the fact Hr.

Speaker, that if the Government comes to this House of Assembly looking for Interim Suoply they should do it jlronerly. h'e should not be pressed to accept it any way the Government wishes to do it, because somebody may not be paid on April 1, 1-1hich is fiction, they are going to be paid anyway, the Government has the votes to do it. The Government is not asking this House to pass Interim Supply properly. The Government is refusing to give this House information as to hm.; that $61.million is to be spent. And Hr • chairman I pointed t b f it au e ore, is the practice in the House of Commons at Otta~Va.

In the House of Commons in the United Kingdom, which the han. Premier ~'\At cites so often 1vhen it is on his of an argument, that the Estimates are given to the House - the next year's Estimates are given to the House before they are asked to vote Interim Suuoly. And as the han. member for Burin oointed out, they are told 1vhat uercentage of the next year's Estimates 1/s-J-' • ---- -·- 1

larch 9, 1970 Tape 11256 Page 6 it is . Now Nr . Chairman, a nother point. The s lavery ooint. the j!reat slavery point . t•'hite s l avery point . ~!r. Chairman, this question of how tne Government was ; oinp, to 1!0 about e ttin~ Interim Supnly was never discuss ·ed before me while I was a member of the Government. I was never consulted about it, never asked about it, never asked to ~ive an ooinion about it. So t hat if any matter came up be f ore the House, the 1~ ay i t t4as done, it was done by the Government. You e i ther had to vote for or a gainst it in the House. So much for this nonsense. . -- .. ··- - ·-- .. --:;

}~rch 9, 1970 Tape 257 Page 1 GC this nons~~se. 1</e knot~, Mr. Chairman, who is in charge on the other side of the House from our own experience there, and it is not a question of whether people on the other side are slaves or non-slaves. It is a question that certain; a certain party, Mr, . Chairman, is in control. MR. SPEAKER (NOEL): The hon. gentleman is not~ getting into something objected to a short while ago. MR. CROSBIE: Very good, Mr. Chairman. The question. The issue before the Chair, no matter how anyone in this House, Hr.

Chairman, whatever stand they took in this matter before, this is now a fresh issue. There is a right way of doing it and a wrong t>ay and the way the Government approaches it in the wrong way. It is the arrogance of a Government ttventy-one years in pm•er. Refusing. It is all on a par. Refusing to answer questions informatively. Refusing to appoint a public accounts committee. Refusing to give certain members proper facilities. Refusing to bring the estimates dot-m.

The hon. the Premier, himself, being quoted by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition as stating in the Press several weeks ago, that the estimates of expenditure for next year are ready. The estimates do not have to be brought dmm with the budget; Hr. Chairman. It is the practice at Ottawa to table the estimates long before the budget is brought dotvn, or certainly before it is brought down. It has been done that \>ay. There is no natural law that estimates must be brought into the House only <Vhen the budget is brought do<Vn. So, the Government can table the estimates for next year.

The Govern­ ment has had months and months to cansider what it is going to do ahouc Civil Service salaries, <Vhat it is going to do ahout hospital workers' salaries, what it is going to do about the police salaries, what it is going to do about fi~ salaries, what it is going to do about the salaries of everyone in the Government service and that is no't' what is delaying this budget now. I think it t>as Marie Antoinette said, ''Let them eat cake". '?And the hon. Premier tells us there will be no budget in Harch; let them condemn it. It .. - ··--- - l

is the same kind of attitude, :·!r. Chairman. Harie Antoinette lost her aead and the hon. Premier may very well lose something, too, in the next fer,; months when he calls it if he continues this attitude. Let them condemn it. Never consulted about this r.1atter. $51 million, ~'r. Chairr;1an. Now, today, :.Ir. Chairman, this afternoon, ~•e are told that this han.

House is going to adjourn tomorrm• until April. \·1e are told that, after being pressed for t'·ro weeks, afternoon and night, after being met with sneers by the han. the :rinister of 1-:ines, Agriculture and Resources that we were filibustering and holding up the business of the House, "hat do we nm• discover? That the liouse is go~.ng to adjourn tomarrow for tKo or three lveeks. THo ~•eeks, until April. l·!e are not getting, l:r. Chainnan, information. h'e cannot r.et it on Come by Chance. ';!e cannot get it on E'RCO. \·.'e cannot get infornatian on :·eel ville. Doctlfilents not even tabled as they should be.

Public accounts and ,,,e are r.,et uith this tired old argument that no'' becomes such .. a freauent argument in this l!ouse. He got m-my ldth it, the argurt'ent is. l<hat are you hon. gentlemen doinv, opposite? You sillY'•illies. You nit-pickers. l~e cot away lJith this for tvJenty-one years and no,.· you are startinr. to talk about it. That is not ~uch of an arfu!:lent, ?!r. Chairman.- The fact~ that the hon. r:entlernen opposite Pere able to get al·:ay ,,•ith this kind of hi)l:h-handed tactics for the last twenty years does not mean that it is ri~ht for it to continue. HR CHAir,; ;f,N: Order please!

The rule of relevancy here is just about gone. The motion is that the Chairman leave the Chair <lithout Report. 1\nd I do not think this is the occasion for a ldde-ranginf; debate at all. Anythinp; like that should come on the other motion. nR CROSiliE: Hell taken, l!r. Chairman. So I will finish my remarks by stating that our request to the Govermr ,ent is a reasonable one.

He want time to consider this matter. lve want and •~e request that 1<e be given the estimates for next year, so that we can study them durinr; the adjournment, If the House is going to adjourn, we should have these estimates to study during the adjournment and we should certainly have them before we are asked to vote on the $61 million. He should be told Hhat the percentage of the estimates for next year is; and this 1,•hole procedure should be chanr,ed. //6/ . - ·- - ~ -·-. .

HR. J.R. Sl-'ALU!OOD:(PRE!HER): Hr. Chainnan, I repeat that the estimates are ·. not ready. Now, either I am a dirty foul liar, or the han. gentleman across.-- HR. H. HURPHY (LEADER OF Tl!E OPPOSI TIO:·I) : The hen. Premier has already spoken in the debate. MR. SHALLHOOD: I will speak ten times more if it is my wish, and so nay every hen. member of the House. There is no lim~t to the number of times. HR- CROIIBIE: On a point of order, Hr. Chairman, I never said that the Premier said that the estimates were ready - quoted in the newspapers that the estimates were ready.

Hhat the Premier said before was that the budget lvas not ready • HR. SHALUIOOD: \-/here is the point of order, }fr. Speaker? That is just debating. That is not a point of order. I did not say that he said that I said. I did not say it. I repeat that the estimates are not ready. Now, can I make English any clearer than that, Your Honour? Because we are still struggling 1dth the question of what increases ue •~ill give to the hospital workers, to the nurses, to the Civil Servants, to the police, to the penitentiary •>ardens, and to other employees of the Government.

Naturally He v1ant to F:ive the largest increases that we are able, financially, to do. Naturally. Inevitably. Logically. h'e are trying to give the largest increases that we are financially capable of giving and so v7e are goinr, over and over and we are getting our servants, that is the officials, to go over and over and over the exercises. i:VOttld \·;hat 1vould it cost if we did this? Hell, they/spend a day doing that. They bring the results. h'e look at them in the Cabtnet. Then, He say, '·'ell nm• v1e ••ill try thts. Suppose we did that, what vrould it cost?

And so af!ain and again, the exercise is being done and ,,-e sttll have not got our estimates ready. They are not ready, llr. Chainnan. They are not ready. Therefore, they cannot be tabled. Therefl!lre they will not be tabled until the House reassembles in April. Nm<T, it is as simple as that. l-Ie are told by the han. gentleman who just sat do1m that we are asked, the committee aMe asked and later, the House will be asked to vote this money. to the Government without having any information as to what the money is for.

Now, if I were to attempt to speak in Committee of Supply, on a bill which is not before the committee, Your Honour, would very properly rule me out of order. But, there is a bill, Your Honour. The committee at the moment is discussing a resolution.· Here is the resolution. That is all there is before the committee. That is all Your Honour will allow to be discussed at this moment. The committee is met on this resolution. /I b 2 .... -·· '-·- -···- ~~ \

!•larch 9, 1970 Tape 257 Page 4 GC

Be it resolved, so and so, that it is expedient to introduce a measure and the measure is this: a bill. This is the resolution, that it is exped­ ient to introduce a measure to provide for granting to Her Majesty for defraying certain expenses of the public service for the financial year ending the 31 day of March, 1971, the initial sum, initial sum, of $61.618 million and then if the committee passes that resolution, the committee will rise. Mr. Speaker will go back in the Chair, and you, Your Ho,nour, will report to Mr. Speaker that the committee have considered the matter to them referred and passes the same.

Then,, the question of a bill with the details will come on immediately after and this would~presumably~go in the committee where, if I ,.1ere allowed, by Your Honour, I could describe right nm~; the breakC.mm of the $61 million. It is not just a lump sum of $61 million. That is what is in the resolution, but in the bills that follow, there is a breakdown by Departments and while I am not allowed to discuss/i~d I do not intend to try to discuss it.at this stage, this ,.;ill come if the bill comes before the committee. I ,.muld then point out that $16 million of that is for education to pay ::eachers' salaries.

I Hauld point out that - $19 million of it is for Public i-Jelfare. HR. CROSBIE: On a point of order, }1r. Speaker. This should come before the House and should be debated then. MR. Sl1ALLHOOD: Ah, that Parliamentarian! That profound and experienced Parliamentarian ~~ho is trying to prove, who is trying to prove to the House what a magri.ificent Premier he would be, although he got squashed and squelched in the Leadership Convention. MR. CROSBIE: You are the greatest squasher in the Province. MR. SMALLHOOD: I squashed the han. gentleman pretty effectively. He has never got over it and he never will. MR.

CROSBIE: The han. gentleman is a great licker. HR. SHALL WOOD: He will never get over it. He will never, never. He will never get over it. Hr. Speaker, Hr. Chairman, 1-1e can go on debating this until 6:00, and we will adjourn then until 8:00 and we can go on from 8::.00 to 11:00 and we /l!3 ,•'

:·!a rc!1 9, 1 9 70 Tape 25 7 ?a~e 5 CC can go on again at 3:00 tomorrow and keep it until 6:00. We can have a thorough going debate. Let it not be said that tve are trying to throttle debate. I can speak as frequently as I like and so can any han. member of this House in committee. There is no limit to the number of times. There is only a limit to the amount of time that any hon. member may take in any one speech. That is the only limitation there is. So, let us have a thorough going debate on this at the moment we are debating that Your Honour leave the Chair and tve do our business.

So, let us have a discussion on whether Your Honour should leave the Chair and then after the discussion is thoroughly completed, then let us put it to a vote and see what happens. MR. HICKEY: There are a couple of questions I wanted to raise. First of all, may I say, Sir, that I feel I have to vote against, vote in favour of the motion made by the member for St. John's Hest. ' Hy colleague, the member for Fortune raised a point of supplementary supply. I think this is a very important point.

It is rather strange tvhy we are asked for interim supply, when He do not even know tvhat the financial state of the Government is for the present fiscal year. Hr. Chairman, another in-teresting point is that if this resolution should pass, .I feel sure that there ilre enough han. gentlemen on the other side going to support that at will. There must obviously be the fear expressed that the Government can carry on, meeting its expenses for two, possibly three months, hm•ever long this amount of money of $61 million can covers. They need not bring dotvn tile budget or estimates.

They may then come back to the House say at approximately June month and say, we lvould like interim supply again for another three months or two months or one month, whatever the case may be. This House may never sit again to discuss a budget for hmv many months? This could go on continuously.

We are not told -we are not given any reasonable time as to tvhen the budget will be brought down or when the estimates will be tabled ana surely it must be obvious why the members on this side of the House 1vould not want this resolution to pass and it is rather difficult to understand uhy hon. members on the other side would not be somewhat concerned as to the possibility of this happening. /16 '-( . . . ~ --·~ - -;.· ...

~ larch 9 , 1()70 Tape 257, PaF.e 6, GC !:r. Speaker, there are a lot of people throur-hout the Province, I suppose all our people, but there are some people particu .larly interested in t h e budget this yea r. For that reason, Sir, I think the Government have the responsibility to bring this bud get do~~ just as quickly as they possibly can . The thin& is that we are in one heck of a l1urry to get t his Resolution passed and to get this I:ill passed . l~ e. are told that the House is gain,; to adjourn because the Premier and certain Cai>inet Hinisters are leaving fo r England. ~ !r .

Cllairman, some of ou r people <·rho are not too f amil i ar <..-it h politics nor the runnin g of t he Province might ~ e ll t hink that this Bill is bein g passed so that t he Premi er and his Cabinet Hinisters may take Supply to Her :-lajesty when they go to f.:1g land. It is all , . - ·--·---~.

I_ i•!arch 9, 1970 Tape 238 Page 1 GC It has almost gotten as bad as that. The rules of the House have been suspended in order to get this measure through and one begins to wonder just t>hat is the right. As some of my colleagueshav2 already pointed out, we have sat in this House in the afternoon and in the night to deal with the business that was to come before the House. He have quite a number of bills already distributed.

One would have e~pected that we would work on those bills, meet in the afternoon and night and contir.ue to do so, so as to cle;ir up this very important work and now we are told that the House is to ·: be adjourned for ttvo or three t~eeks. Mr. Chairman, as I said earlier, I cannot understand hm; or why it is so i!!lportant that He approve this resolution. I think that the important ~hing for the Government to do is to get as many people as necessary, t;orking on the estimates and to bring dmm the budget. And I feel sure that we are not going to go broke be t<reen now and the 31st of !·larch. Surely, }!r.

Chairman, between nm·r and then, the budget can be brought down, the estimates distribute~ and t>hen we find out what condition we are in for the current fiscal year, then let us talk about interim supply for 1970 - 1971. HR. STRICKLAim: Mr. Chairman., I wonder could/hirect a question to the Premier? I wonder can he assure the House that pay increases to be granted to Civil Servants, no matter what category they are in, and irrespective of the date the budget t.ras brought dmm in this H o~._, -'·\ \ '< 'I he assure the House the pay increases will be retroacti ve t.c{~ ril 1~ l f v " - · { j ~ ·:· • 'I HR.

SHALLHOOD: Hr. Chairman, of course. Of cou.rse, t hey A~ i). l a e .':.·; :n o~ .--;i only these, but every category that I mentioned: hospita~ ~or~_!:.;~, : p~l_{c~, ~~ I ·. <" firemen, wardens, civil servants; all employees of the GoV\(nment , .~~l ~-­ employees not of the Government would get their salaries from the Government, all increases will be retroactive as from April 1 regardless of the date of the budget. MR. CROSBIE: I would like to ask the hon. the Premier a question, too, before tle proceed.

Could the hon, the Premier assure the House that if interim supply is passes, the House is going to meet in April? HR SMALLI·!OOD: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR ~ CI!AIRNA."'I: The Resolution is that the Chairman leave the Chair tdthout Report: Those in favour "Aye", Contrary, "~ay". I declare the motion lost. Shall the Resolution carry? HR HICKNAi11: Hhat are t~e doing now? lias the Chair ruled on the Division? /lt."(:. •'

~~~------ --- · -- - --- ---. Harch 9, 1970 Tape 258 Page 2 GC 11R CROSBIE: Pardon! Before the han. member cmmnences, what \~as your ruling, Mr. Chairman, on the vote. Can we have a recorded vote or - 1 MR CHAIR}~N: No, we don't record it. The question before the Committee now is: "Shall the Resolution Carry?" MR HICIO!AN: Mr. Chairman, before you put the Question on the Resolution, during the course of this debate certain information has come to the attention of han. members for the first time. We now knm~ that (1) this hon. House will sit in April.

That has been stated .categorically, de- finitively, if ever any han. member should 1~elch on that he would be run out of the country. This is a clear, firn commitment; that hon. members of this House will sit and that a budget will be brought down in April - given by the Leader of Her Hajesty 's Government, ,_ho has never been knotm to change his mind. So that, Hr. Chairman, another question obviously must come to the attention of han. r.tembers. lve have been told that the amount sought in this Resolution · covers supply for t1.-o months. That would be for the months of April and "lay. But, Hr.

Chairman, the budget is goin3 to be brought down in April, so obviously Her Majesty's Governr.tent does not re'luire funds by way of interim supply for Hay. Haybe this fact was not knovn to hon. members on the Government Side until the han. the Premier made that announcement just a few minutes ago. And I presume that now that this is knmm to hon. members, now that they are fully aware of the fact that the budget 1;ill be brought dm-m in April, that therefore interim supply 1~ill not be needet.l for Hay, could not possibly be required for l!ay, could not possibly be spent in ~lay, then, Hr.

Chairman, it is obvious that they are not going to depart completely from parliamentary tradition and completely throw at~ay the purse strings or cut them up and destroy them. Because, }!r. Chairman, it must be obvious to all han. members that interim supply is something that no government likes to ask for.

It only asks for interim supply to meet the exigencies of a situation dictated by the very problem that the hon. the Premier has raised, the difficulty that he is experiencing with the servants of the Crmm in preparing next year's estimates and deciding just hm; much of an increase the public servants 11ill receive. II t: 'l ... ·- - -· -- . --.,.. .

. ---. --~ -· ------ ---- - - - - ----~--- And this is the only reason for interir.t supply, ~fr. Speaker • It cannot be. It >~auld be impossible. It would be unthinkable that any Government >wuld ask for interim supply for the sole purpose of taking a~~ay at all, any of the rights of Parliament to control the purse, but rather it is because through no fault of their o~m the public servants have been so busy, and so many questions have been asked of them that they just have not been able to find the time to prepare the main estimates.

So, that is all settled. vie nm~ knm~ that the public servants will complete their >mrk by April. lie now kno.v that the budget will be brought dmm in April. He now know that interim supply is not requires for~_}•.ay. I repeat, ~1r. Speaker, interim supply is not required for Hay and obviously, when this resolution •~as prepared by the hon. the Minister of Finance on the advice of his colleagues, he was in error. Now, the han. the: ·Premier has corrected that error. I therefore move, Mr.

Speaker, seconded by the bon. the member for Fortune Bay, that the sum of $61,000,618.00 being the amount sought in the resolution, be reduced to $30,000,809.00, >vhich >vill cover interim supply for one month. MR. SMALLHOOD: Mr. Chairman, in April I thin!~, there are th:i:rty days. Is that right? Thirty days in the month of April and I have informe d the House that the House >dll reconvene in the month of April. Now, if it reconvenes on Wednesday, the 29th of April, I will have kept my promise.

The han. the member for Fortune Bay has just jumped to his feet and - of Burin has jumped to his feet and dra'Yn attention , dramatic and spectacular attention to the fact that I had said that I had said that the House would reassemble in the month of April and he says that if I do not do that, I .vould be run out of this country. I think he probably meant run out of this Province. Now, I agree, but I also point out to the committee that if the House meets on \~ednesday the 29th, or even Thursday the 30th of April, I will have kep~ my promise.

I want also to invite the committee's attention to the fact that under the Election Act, twenty-one days between the proclamation and polling day, so we could have a General Elect~on in April month and after the General Election, the House could be called together, still keeping the promise tliat the House >Yill reassemble in April month. ' .. -t -~---~ -~

- - --- - ------"""'--'-----. ··-- -- !-!arch 9, 1970 Tape 258 Page 4 GC HR. HICK!-l~~: And bringing down the budget? MR. S~W..Ll-!OOD: And 1~e could bring down the budget. He could meet on the 28th and bring the budget down on the --- He could bring the budget --- meet on he 28th, bring the budget down on the 29th after the election 1<as over and we had come back 1dth a thumping big majority. Nm~, this can happen in April month with no promises broken, but there will not be the same personnel in here. Over there, lvill be a much thinner crowd and not the same faces.

I believe there are t1vo over there that will come back. Tl•o will come back into this Chamber. T'ne rest, we will see no more, after the:· election in April or lvhenever the elecion is; whenever that election is. HR. HICKHAN: You have got to get by that committee at Port au Port. NR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, in the event that all of these desirable things l'lhich have just been announced do not come to pass. He are all very hopeful on this side of the !louse thnt they will, of course.

There is still, on the 29th or ev·cn the 30th of April, an opportunity to bring do 1m the further request of interim supply, if it is required. Therefore, I support the l'lotion of my hon. colleague. HR. S~L\LLIIDOD: Surprise! Surprise! Surprise! Ile supports it. }JR. EARLE: Actually, there is plenty of time. He have, or we are nmv suggesting an amount of money lvl\ich will see this House, this Government through, the month of April. That is twenty- tlvo days nm·r to run in the old year and the full month of April. · r ·,think hon.

Members on the other side, Hill realise that gives ample time for reconsideration of salary··votes or anything else that may be desirable in that time. This is only in the sense of 'red herring' to say that further time is needed at this stage. So, I suggest, Hr. Chairman, that we voc-e $30.800 million, is it? NR. 'RICKHAN: 809 }JR. EARLE: $R09,000.00 ($30.809 million) MR. CROSBIE: Hr. Chairman, I certainly support ~~hole-heartedly the motion moved by the hon. member for Burin. Not even subject to his Party~s discipline, I can see the good sense of it. The gentleman is a fountain of good sense, at the moment. Mr.

Chairman, we understand on this side of the House, that the bon. I /6 'I . ,. ......... - ..... - .......

,.:.fCil ~·, l'}ltJ the Premier and four of his ministers arc going to Europe, later in the Heek, on important Government business and we sympathise ,.,i th the facT that their minds should be set at ease when they go, that they, they should, they want to feel that they have got tucked alvay in the Governmental budget 2 wallet, the Governmental lvallet, two months supply of funds for lvhen they come ba!ok so that they can operate - the Government can operate here in this Province for April and :1ay without having to come back to face this House, 1dthout having to come back to listen to our questions or to listen to our points.

On this side of the House, Mr. Chairman, l·le are reminded very frequently of the hon. the Premier's tremendous desire to " get rid of us. He is constantly talking about this election that might be coming. He is going to get a thumping big majority. l-iell, Hr. Chairman, I say that he is asking for a thumping big 1vhack of money, nmv, today, for us to vote blindly in this House, to vote as blindly as he hopes the voters lvill vote lvhen they get their chance in"the coming election. $61,618;000.-00 requested by the Government r.ontemptuously, with contempt. Let them eat cake.

Give us the $61,618,000.00 or we are going to take it anyway. That is the attituee of the Government. "There 1vill be no budget in Harch. You cannot argue about it. You cannot deny it. You cannot support it, because it is a fact. A certain person says there Hill be no budget in l-!arch and no1v we are asked to vote $61.618 million. It is far more sensible, Hr. Chairman, for the Government to support this resolution, moved by private members in this House, that the amount be reduced to sufficiently cover one month's operation.

So, that is arrogant Government. \!e 1vill have to come back to this House before the end of April, either to get further interim supply passed or to present a bud~et and we have been promised a budget in April. If there is an election intervening, Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Premier ~~ill not be able to carry out his promise because he l'ill not be in a position to let - put down a budget, not having a majority of the members of this House after that supervening event. Hr.

Chairman, ~~bile there has been a few jocular moments in this debate, in actual fact, the matter that 1-1e are discussing could not be more serious. Would it happen in any other Province that a Government can just expect to I I 7 [' - . - ~·-·---.-:- ..

--------- ~!arci1 9, 1970 Tape ?age 6 r.c obtain from the neuse, t11enty percent of its budget in two daj's? There is a motion being made in this House that the rules be suspended tomorrow. That means that tomorrow the Government proposes to pass through all three stages, the bill, that is to follot·T this resolution, because the rules are going to be suspended to permit the Government to do that. The Government suspends the rules whenever the yovernment sees so fit to suspend them and the Government has a majority in this House that'·perrlits it to do that.

Is it right that authorization for $61 million tmrth of spending should go through this House in DJO days td thout any detail other than it is going to be in the bill a certain set amount for each department~ If the Government gets its $61 million, ~·lr. Chairman, it does not oave to come back to this House again until the end of ~·lay. It may not even bring dmm a budget. It may go to the country 11i t ho ut bringing down the budget or it may not. It will not have to bring dm·.'Il a budget and ue are asked nou to adjourn or the Governwent is going to adjourn the House for tlJO I·Teeks.

No consultation with the han. members on~this side. Is the Government going to ~ermit the select committee on the public accounts to function during the next ttJO t·reeks while tve are adjourned as it should1 Is that committee going to have a Chairman, one of the members of the Opposition as Chairman and at least tiVO members from this side on it? Or is it going to be an attempt to whitewash? None of these questions dealt tlith? Or at least not dealt 11ith yet. It is the practice, Hr.

Chairman, in other Parliaments and Houses where the normal courtesies apply that the order of business of the House is discussed ben;een the Parli.es so that people can know a day or tiVo ahead what the business of the House is going to be. On this side of the House, Hr. Chairman, we hardly ever know a half hour ahead what the business will be. Tomorrow we discover we are going to adjourn for several weeks. He did have a little advance notice of that. So, Hr.

Chairma~, 1~e can - this whole matter can be gone into again tomorrow, department by department and I am sure that it will be, but at the present time, there has been no ar~ument: advanced as to why any me!!lber of this House should vote against the resolution proposed - a motion proposed by the han. member for Burin. II 1/ -.. ·-- -- ·­. ..

~a r ch 9, 1970 Tape 258 Pa~e 7 GC One month s interim . supply in th es e circumstances Hr . Chairmen, J.s more than enough and should satisfy any Gove!"nr.len~, even one 1·1ith the rapacious ability to spend tr.oney that th i s one !:as . ltR . COLLDlS : Hr . Chairman., in ris i ng to suppor t the motiou jus t by my colleague for Burin, first of all one must wonder why it is so necessaey to close this han. House at all. The fact -- / 1 7 J . . - ~,.~---,.....--"'="·

~!arch 9, 1970 Taoe =i 2S~ Page ~ · lR. CClLLD!S: the fact that the Premier and some of the 1!inisters are leavin~ the Province to go to Englanrl for a Heek is nothine: neH I <muld su~gest. He have seen examules Hhere the Prime ;·tinister of Canada and several 1-!inisters have left and the P.ouse of ColTllllons still remained ouen. And I am sure that a lot of han. members and certainly the uublic in Newfoundland would nossibly enjoy having the neuuty Premier run the affairs of the country for a lveek. And anstver questions back and forth across this illustrious Chamber.

Now Sir, to get to the more important uart of the Motion. r.ertainly there is no excuse at all for this Government or any Government to ask for more monies than is necessary, and I 1-10uld say Sir, thilt in this uarticular instance, they are askinr, for more than is necessary, certainlv more than they have told us is necessary. He have the Premier's l·,ord that the House is to be called together in April, in which event one month's supply is adequate for 'larch. And realizing the record of this Government Nr.

Chairman, in its spending habits, I would much rather agree to giving them a blank cheque for $30.million than giving them a hlank cheque for $60.millicn, and I certainly Sir Hould supnort the 'lotion. HR CHAIR..'l<\.N: The Amendment is t hat the amount stated in the Resolution be reduced to . $30,809,000. Those in favour ''Aye" contrary ··~lay''. I declare the motion defeated. On motion Resolution carried: On motion, that the Committee rise and report having passed the Resolution and recommend that a Bill be brought in to give effect to the same, Hr. Speaker returned to the Chair: HR CHAIRHAN: Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of the 1-:rhole have considered the matter to them referred and directed me to report havin~ passed the Resolution and recommend that a Bill be brought in to give effect to the same. On motion renort received, and adopted, On motion Resolution read a first time. On motion Resolution read a second time.

On motion, A Bill, "An Act for Granting To IIP.r '!ajesty Certain Sums Of Honey For D·~frayinp,· Certain Exnenses Of The Public Service for The Financial Year Ending 31 ~!arch. 1971, and For Other Purposes Relating To The Public Service," read a first time, ordererl read a second time on tomorrow. /; 7 3 .... t . . - ----. ... ,,.

JH ]!arch 9, 1970 Tape {1259 Page 2 ADDRESS IN REPLY NR. ALEX !lOORES: ]·lr. Speaker, my predecessor in this debate has set a very difficult role for me to follow, hm-1ever I lvant to avail of this opportunity to congratulate him on his contribution to this Session. It was one of the finest speeches I have heard for some time. It contained the type of information that people 1vant to hear. A very refreshing experience after all the bickering we have'been exposed to the past couple of weeks.

I also want to associate myself with all the other hon. members 1vho spoke before me and-compliment the han. member for Trinity ~orth, St. Hary's, for their contribution to proceedings on opening day. I Hould also like to congratulate the hon. member the Leader of the Op!'osition on his promotion, and I Hish him l,ell during t·:nure of office, a great responsibility rested on his shoulders, but he is built to take it, including the curved balls and off center plays Hhich he contends are hurled at him from time to time. I do not mean St. John's Center players, these are always curved. To the hon.

Pr~mier lvho received such oven1helminp.:ly surmort as the oarty leader last November. I 1vant to ldsh him contint!ed success in his chosen field, and long may his big jib draH. and In my opinion Mr. Speaker, one of the most imnortant si~nificant ' sections of the Throne Speech is that

section Hhich relates to the Tlepartn:ent of Re~ional and Economic Exnansion. I can sP-e arising out of D~EE an opportunity 1>'hich if fully embraced could be the means of develoninp.: this Island in such a oositive manner as never before realized. In fact such Nev<ll,. an opportunit~,existed before.

Ottawa is fully cognizant of the fact that in order for all Canadians to have equal opportunities, a \vay must be found to put in their hands J resources, means l4hereby they can and raise their families. those who do not possess the material -tA~t develop the areas in Hhich, 1 live, work There are many such areas in Canada and !\e1vfoundland, as an Island Province~being one of the most farthest noints a1vay from the great industrial Lt.>-< heartland of Canada?should qualify for full henefits under the DREE program. 1/?t..; . ' ··-·- ·-·-;,.

JH ~arch 9, 1970 Tape 1.' 259 Page 1 The success of this program is going to depend, in my opinion, absolutely and entirely on the people who make up our Province. Our own Ne,vfoundland peoole. I cannot subscribe to the negative aPproach displayed by some members_ of this House and their counterparts on Parliament Hill in respect to this program.

He have enough knockers already in very influential positions in Canada 1vho have no time for Newfoundland or her problems; a number of them lvould like to "rite her off, anyone 1-1ho entertains that kind of thinking does not knmv 1·7hat he is letting himself in for. ~!r.

Speaker, I ~>Jould recommend that all Newfoundlanders regardless of their party affiliations should show a very solid front when it comes to debatin7- the DREE program. ~!y observations of the DREE Act and the benefits that Hill result therefrom has led me to the conclusion that it could be the greatest blessing that has befallen Ne1vfoundland since Confederation. llm<ever, the success of this Program is going to depend absolutelv and entirel y on the approach 1-1hich the peoPle of Ne~<foundl,.nd are going to adont toward it. It is going to mean total involvement on our Part to obtain the best results.

I am afraid if ~<e do not embrace this opportunity now ,,,e mav never get the same chance again. The Conference 1-Jbtch is to te called to kick off the oro:;ram will enable those ~J ho Hill be inv i ted to attend an opportunity to make knoHn their vie"s on lvhat thev figure should be done in the areas from 'o7hich they come.

I 1vould SU?-gest at this time that the Hinister whose department is responsible to Government to see to it that all pertinent literature on the program should be circulated if at all possible to those 1-;ho are in vi ted, in order thnt thev may be fully conversant ~<ith the subject and he 11ble to intelliv.entlv annly it to their areas. This is most important. It would be a great loss of valuable time during the Conference if a full explanation of the program has to be given at that time. Prior detatls in the hands of those attending would send matters alon~ much more smoothly and s~riftly.

Everyone coming to this Conference should he preoared, _: to make his views kno~<n on "hat he considers to be the primarv needs of his respective area. I would exnect ~lr. Sneaker, that the ultimate r.oal "ill be to rationalize the numher of communities in our Province ;;nd to encouraS~;e rro1·1th centers th~tt have aptitu<le and notenti:.l for development. This can no douht be II 7)

Harch 9, 1970 Tane 1!259 achieved successfully, but as responsible neople we must ensure that the me<!ns used to achieve this end are nractical, sound and viable. In order for a sound and solid foundation .be laid for growth, it must all tie in uith industries represented in the various areas. \Je cannot Move peoole for the sake of movin~ them or closing out a settlement for the sake of making one less. The move must be made to aid and abet an .industry that has good chances of gro1vth in special areas.

The end result of 'Jhich can give our peonle the necessities of life: a comfortable home and a community in 1•7hich they »ant to live and raise their families. Having rlwealt at some little length on the DRF.f. uropram, 1 Hant nmv to devote a part of my time to a suhiect that aluavs commands a lot of attention in ~ewfoundland and ri.;htlv so, because its influence Provides a 1ob for one out of every four !'iewfoun dlanders. I am referring to our Fisher y . Every hon. member in thif' House has one soecial field of endeavour to which he tries to aspire.

In addition to our political affiliations some hou. members are Union leaders. lav:ryers, doctors, cowmunication exnerts. real estate experts, insurance underuriters, school teachers, politicians by profession, business men etc., A truly representative cross

section of our society, which after all is the way our democratic Government system functions: irrespective of our professions, everv !lewfoundlander can deeply become involved when the Horcl fish is mentioned. It comes naturalb'• It is one of our heritages,not much perhaps by mainland standards but it is ours. A.<; a ueople 1-1e must have greater involvement hy Hay of knowledge of our Fishery, be familiar of all aspects of catching, processing, what it means to our economy, Hays and means He could adopt to make for better quality.

Find out where our fish is sold, the manner in which it is presented to the consumer, after all it is our oroducts and t~e must be proud of them. I am about to make a prediction, and it is this. h1e are f':OinP: to find under the nREE program that our fishery is goinf': to play a very vital and important role in the exoansion of our Province, the like of which ,,,e did not anticipate say five years ago. Ottawa now fullv realizes the potential '~ hich exists off and around our coasts. Fish is in fact becoming I I 7 o!· - ____ .. - --oft

Jl>' Narch 9, 1970 Ta'[le #259 one of the great foods of the world. Nations must turn to the sea to feed the peoples of the 1vorld. A lot of concern is bein!J: e~mressed over the pressure that is being exerted on knmm fishing areas, and there is a move on foot to endeavour to establish quotas from certain well fished areas. There is already a quota for Haddock on George's Bank. Now Hr. Speaker, we have heard a lot of mention through the years in ·respect to ·the twelve mile limit, and I am sure all hon. members of the House are very pleased to learn, over the ~~eekend or a few days prior to that, the Ron.

Ninister of Fisheries has started in Ottalva, has started to get some action in that respect. Protective lines are now being drawn especially to seal off the Gulf area to foreign ships. Now it is not the intention to literally move them out, but to iust ask them politely if they would just please move a1vay because this is an area lvhich we have reserved, and it is part of Canada's terri to rial Haters. /I 71 .. . ·- -· --- ..,~

March 9, 1970, TApe 260, Page 1 -- apb HR. MOORES: I fully support that move and I am sure that in due course we will receive full implimentation as far as the twelve mile limit is co~cerned. Now there is a lot of pressure on our fish stocks at the moment and this pressure of course is being applied by European trawlers, Now the trawler operation is one aspect, and hook and line operation is another.

I think personally it would be a mistake to bar the lfuite Fleet, the Portugese lfuite Fleet or any other European ships that use hook and line to catch fish on the Grand Banks or outside the t1•elve mile limit anyt.ray, but the idea of the quota system is to put certain sections of the continental shelf on a quota basis. I contend that the hand lining, or the hook and line method of catching fish is such that you usually catch the larger fish, and by so doing of course you are aiding and abetting the smaller fish to grm• to maturity. I think it would be a mistake to debar the hook and line method of fishing.

Now I do know as well that the pressure that is being exerted locally HON. J.R.SHALLI\100D: (Premier): Would the hen. member allow a question? Is he suggesting that the more of the larger fish that are taken the better for the smaller fish that are left, it give them a better chance to survive? MR. l·!OORES: That is so Sir, I meant to lead on to that, we have a situation in Trinity Bay when we started to take turbot, we tried to catch turbot. Hhen the initial orderswere placed in Newfoundland for this particular type of fish it was for the large size fish.

That was the only size the buyers were interested in, the fish had to be five pounds or aver. In the initial purchasing of this fish it was found out that seventy-five per cent of the fish taken were on a size smaller than five pounds sa the problem arose what were we going to do with the fish that were under five pounds. It was no point in going to a fisherman and tell him sorry but you can only keep the large ones the small you have to throw away. The industry then had to find a market for the fillets, this was eventually found in the United States.

But we carried it a step further, instead of using hook and lines we started using gill nets, and by using the gill nets in Trinity Bay and the other bays we did a real job on the turbot fishery in Newfoundland. The large fish was then mentioned that if we continued to use the hook and line we would take the bait, we would have a ready market for the large fish, it would give our smaller fish an opportunity to grow, but by using gill nets we smothered whatever was on the bottom. This was most unfortunate. RON. A.J.MALO::-<EY (Hinister of Fisheries): \<lould the han. member permit a question.

Are you suggesting that the gill nets are destroying to some effect I I 7 ·Y

!1arch 9, 1970, Tape 260, Page 2 -- ab HR. HOORES: Yes ltr. Minister I a~, and I have sufficient evidence of it. It is a great mistake to encourage the use of gill nets in Newfoundlands inshore fishery. Now in addition to catching all these small fish •••••• MR. SM../11,1\.JOOD: Even the Japanese light weight ones? MR. MOORES: That is right.Sfr. In addition to catching all the small fish we are up against a quality problem. This is the most serious aspect of, or one of the most serious aspects of the gill net ooeration.

The gill nets are set on a day, possibly it would be two or three days before the nets would be taken back because of inclement weather and so on. Imagine the fish that entered that net four or five hours from the time it was set and be taken out of the net seventy-two hours or ninety-six hours afterwards. \That .q_?ality of that fish is left? The fish becomes attacked by other fish and goes to the botton and becomes chafed and so on, ycu c.:1n just keep on going.

But it does do very serious damage to the quality of our fish, and I certainly and respectfully suggest we take a very close look at our gill net operation. Now in the modern way of catching fish, with our longliners and our gourdies and so on~ . there is ample equipment available for fishermen to acquire and install in their boats to set out miles of tra\vl. They contend that we are using gill nets, and this gives them an opportunity to set four nets and taken in bigger quantities of fish but they are only defeating their o~~ purpose, we are killing our resource,

whereas with set lines we come up with larger fish, better quality fish, and it would be ~11 pluses in my estimation. Mr. Speaker, the Minister for Social and Community Development was speaking on the DREE program a few evenings ago, and he referred to Newfoundland as a great wharf existing in the Atlantic. He found that this wharf for our fishe~en who were stuck with job of catching fish down through the years will in the future realize a greater return for their efforts.

I predict that our men who ha¥~tuck with the fishing boat and the companies who has stuck with the industry, all of them together through high prices and low prices, good catches and poor catches, will form a very strong nucleus in our economic growth in the seventies. Now recently we have heard discussions from time to time on the pride that seems to be lacking in a lot of our Newfoundland people, the pride of what we are doing, the pride of our accomplishments, but I think this is one particular area where we are sadly lacking.

It seems that if the pride of achievement, the pride of accomplishment has not driven home as far as our fishermen are concerned. Now granted down through the years we have heard a lot j/ ?'-,.' ·.·.:.: _. ....... __ -----

March 9, 1970, Tape 260, Page 3 -- apb about the ups and downs of the industry and the way all the fishermen were treated. But that is not the way to look at it. We have all of that behind us. We have reached a point in time now, where a fisherman in Newfoundland can look with great pride on what they have accomplished to date. They can look with much greater pride on what they hope to accomplish in the future. This is where this han. House and people i>'l influential circles can make their point, and put it across. Hhat is wrong with a person who catches fish or produces food.

He is associated with an industry that after all is producing a product that sustains life. What higher cal~ing in life can a man undertake than that. Why should a fisherman look upon hi~elf as not being as good a man as a man who fixes a television set, or rep~irs a car, or repairs a tractor, or drives a bus, or drives a train7 l contend Mr. Speaker, that we have to instill in our people, we have to get pride into our people, and I think that pride is what is lacking, in a lot of our Newfoundland fishermen at the moment.

I mean it takes quite a man to set out on a foggy morning and go out and find a trap and set it, or it -'he set a trap, then hawl it and get a load of f:ish and bring it back to a plant. He is a clever man, a fisherman is,anywhere in this world you will find it. Take the Portugese and put them on the Grand Banks, one man in an open dory, foggy, put him loose, but he has to catch a load of fish before he comes back to the ship if at all possible. The fishermen are clever men. Mr. Speaker, it is some twenty--five years now since Newfoundland first started to fillat and freeze cod fish for export on a large scale.

Twenty-five years in the development of markets for a primary product such as frozen cod fish is but a short span of time, provided of course we are on the right track. Twenty-five days in the month of July is too long if you are on the wrong track. There has been many set-backs during the period of development of markets for our fish, but most of the companies engaged in the business, even though they hung on their hopes, and on many occasions some went under, but those who knew the game and liked it, and one must like it, otherwise he would be th