PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 43 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, MAY 7, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

Hay 7. 1971 The House met at 11:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair, MR. SPEAKER~ Order! Tape 536 (mornin~) PRESENTING PETITIONS PK - 1 HON. J. R. CHALKF.R: nmnSTER OF PUBLIC WORKS): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 190 fishermen and members of their family in Cook's Harbour, Wild Bight and Boat Harbour. They are requesting, Sir, construction of a cold stora~e building with modern holding facilities.

I may say, Sir, in support of this petition, and this particular case,last year in Cook's Harbour they developed a new fish ;:,roduct named ''lump fish ro:Us," and it left there to the fishermen approximately $20,000. It would have left more but 1 due to the lack of refri~eration,much of the rolls spoiled, and they coµld not handle any additional quanity. Now, Sir, this llllllp fish rolls just started about a year and a-half ago. Each fish roughly produces three pounds of roll~ ?he fishermen did receive last year ten cents a pound, which is quite a lucrative amount of money to receive for one lump of fish.

Now, Sir, with the addition ~f this refrigeration plan at Cook's Harbour, it would be quite possible for over $100,000 to be left there annually in lump fish rolls alone. That coupled with the fresh cod fish, that sometimes go bad When there is a lot of fish down in that area, they are unable to transport it quickly enough to St. Anthony, but with the holdin~ facilities there, they would overcome this matter and deliver the good product to the fish market. Mr. Speaker, all the hon. members of this Rouse must bear in mind that you can only make a good fish product out of a ~ood fish.

I heartedly support this petition and ask that it be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. 2862

May 7, 1971 Tape 536 (morning) PK - 2 HON. E, M, ROBERTS'. (MINISTER OF HEALTH): Mr. Speaker, may I say a word or two in support of this petition, both in defence of my colle~~ues, the Minister of Education, the Minister of Conmumity and Social Development who always talk about this "cod roll," but leaving that aside, Sir, the people of Cook's Harbour, which, althou~h it is not a part of White Bay North District, it is immediately the next community to the most northernly or north westerly community in my constituency, The people of Cook's Harbour are noted as being among the best fishennen in Newfoundland.

They produce great quanities of fish, and they produce good fish. It is twenty-five or thirty miles by road from Cook's Harbour over to St. Anthony,where the fresh fish must be trucked to be dealt with in the Fishery Products Plant at St, Anthony and often~on a warm day and with the dusty roads, the fish can be something less than the best of quality. The erection of this fish holding facility that is the subject of the petition would be a considerable advantage to the people of Cook's Harbour and I suppose, Boat Harbour and Wild Bight and the other nearby c0t1111unities as well.

I think, it would be something that would benefit their product, would benefit as well the people by increasing their income. So I,with very much pleasure,support the petition. HON. W, R. CALLAHAN: (MINISTER OF MINES, AGRICULTURE AND RESOURCES): Mr. Speaker, I, too rise in support of the petition, Sir.

I may tell the Bouse that at this very moment the officials of the Division of Agriculture and ~ood are attempting to find a suitable, the most suitable site on the tip of the great northern peninsula for the location of a multiple-control temperature-holding facility, I think, pretty well along the lines of that to which the petition refers.

The idea is, and we are doing it in a nmnber of places, to have a multiple use facility that could handle fish products, : agricultural products, meat products,in a sin~le unit, because the efficiency of cost and of operation engendered thereby seems to us to make a good deal of sense. I believe our officials are to be in that area the first part of next 2863

May 7, 1971 Tape 536 (morning) PK - 3 MR. CALLAHAN: week to try to locate a suitable site. I can assure the hon. the minister, as the member for St. Barbe North,and throug~ him the petitioners,that the prayer of the petition will be very much before the minds of the officials when they go in that area next week to look at the site for, I think, a facility that might well meet the request and the prayer of the petition. MR. R. BARBOUR: Mr. Speaker, I would like to concur with the hon. members who spoke in support of the petition.

I believe Cook's Harbour was once called ''Bandy Harbour." In my days fishing down there and taking salt fish from it in the fall of the year, it was known then as "Bandy Harbour," but later became known, as "Cook's Harbour." I have a great number of friends down there. And seeing that I am known to be a friend of the fishermen down there, I strongly support the petition. MR. A. J. MURPHY: (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): I wish I had a psychedelic tie. Mr. Speaker, I, too would like to support this petition.

I think it is one of two or three we have heard in recent days, I do not know what the trouble is that we cannot favourably consider these petitions, because, I know>listening to the hon. member there, of the hardships that his constituents are going through. --While we have such priority, Sir, the Bulletin and the liquor store leases and what not,it is going to be very difficult to find the money to do these projects. But, I am sure the assurance of the hon. Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources will be some relief to the hon. the member for St. Barbe North.

I feel perhaps, when we hear these petitions, I think we realize at last the Government are becoming aware of some of the vital things, the things that are vital to the economy of this Province. I have very much pleasure, Sir, in supporting this petition, as I have supported others for such worthy projects. On motion petition received. NOTICE OF MOTION MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following Bills: A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The 2864

May 6, 1971 Tape 536 (morning) Pk - 4 MR. CALLAHAN: British Newfoundland Exploration Limited(Petroleum and Natural Gas)Act, 1963." And also, a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Agreement Confirmed By And Set Forth In The

Schedule To The Frobisher Limited (Confirmation Of Agreement) Act, 1955, And To Make Certain Provisions Relating To That Agreement." ANSRERS TO QUESTIONS ll(>N. F.. S. JONES: (MINISTER OF FINANCE) : Mr. Speaker, in answers to questions: 1 have the answer to Question No. 218,asked by the hon. member for Burin, on the Order Paper of 29th. of March. I think that has been answered. I have another that I think has already been answered. Question No. 533, asked by : the hon. the member for St. John's West,on the Order Paper of April 22. I am not sure whether that has been answered or not.

I can give you the answer verbally, Mr. Speaker, and the answer is this: Although this announcement has neen made Fed~rally _,concerning the Superannuation pay of former employees of the Government of Newfoundland, we have received no .official notification from Mr. Drurey, the President of the Federal Treasury Board. We are aware of it, but we have not been officially notified. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question there. Although the minister has not been officially notified, have Government considered their position on the matter? MR. JONES: No, we have not officially considered the matter, Mr.

Speaker. But, I have no doubt that the Government of Newfoundland will go along with the new proposals. I feel cert4£n, it would. Question No. 460,on the Order Paper of April 14, in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's We~t. I am tabling these answers. Question No. 461,on the Order Paper of April 141 by t~e same hon. gentleman. Question No. 462,on the Order Paper of April 14rby the same hon. gentleman. Question No. 463,on the same Order Paper,by the same hon. member. 2865

May 6. 1971 Tape 536 (morning) PK - 5 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, before~we get into Orders of the Day, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Mines. Agriculture and Resources regarding a question I asked earlier in the week with reference to a statement 1 Mr. Martin Saunders of Baie Verte,with reference to statements made by the hon. minister, with reference to phasin~ out of mines in Central Newfoundland. Has the minister any statement to make at this time? MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker, I do not think I was in the House when the hon. gentleman raised the question.

If I was I do not recall it. MR. MURPHY: Yes. Sir, you were definitely in the House. MR. CALLAHAN: Well, earlier this weekFon introducing three Bills pertaining to the extension of certain exploration agreements, I dealt with this question. I will be glad now to repeat what I said then, and what I in fact said in Grand Falls some weeks ago. Namely; that we are negotiating with the Go~emment of Canada .:a.1 major mineral resources development agreement. Negotiations for all practical purposes have been concluded.

The agreement ~hich is in the amount,in terms of Federal expenditures 1is $2.79 million for the first - 2866

May 7, 1971. Tape 537. Page 1. Morning Session. first phase we think is intended to step up the collection of basic information regarding mineral resources in this Province and particularly regarding base metals and regarding slacial deposits such as we have in the Central and North Central area of the island. This I said in Grand Falls and I went on the say that this is the very necessary, the very urgent programme to be undertaken.

It is no secret, ~t has been publicly stated by people involved,whether on the corporate side or on the other side,and it is well known, it is no secret that these deposits , these glacial deposits, particularly of minerals which are being mined add which had been mined,going back into the middle 1800's,are relatively short-lived.

What we have to ~o,Mr,Speaker, and again I am repeating what I said here the other day and what I said in my~original statement in Grand Falla, what we have to do is step up the mineral resourceF investigations programme in the public sector.quite aside from what private companies are doing~in order to insure that we have continuing development that we do not have the phase-out of mining operations that now exist, that we not only do not lose employment that we now have but that we in fact expanded.

Thia is the statement that I made in Grand Falls, this is the statement that I repeated here in the House a few days ago and I repeat it again now. I do not know.what Mr.

Saunders baa said and I do not know what the motivation was behind his statement but I know what the motivation was behind mine r:t was simply to say and to assure the people of Cent~al Newfoundland,particularly in the general _area of North Central Newfoundland,that we have a programme coming up, starting this year,with $1 million expenditure,which is designed to further improve and develop the mineral resources industry in that part of the Island. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR.CROSBIE; Before the Orders of the Day Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Hon.

Minister of Fisheries would inform the House what progress has been made by the Select Coumittee considering colle~tive bargaining for 2867

May 7, 1971. Tape 537, Page 2. Morning Session. fishermen in the new price system for fish, what progress has the Connnittee made, when is it likely to report to the House? MR.WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, in answer to that question, the Committee has met the different people concerned, trade unions,and we are now compiling all of our hearings and we are making very good progress. I cannot give a definite date. I do not think the hon.member expects me to give a definite date, when we are going to bring in the recpmmendations, ORDERS OF THE DAY: Committee of Supply: Chairman of Committee. Mr.

Hodder: Education and Youth, 601-01: MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, on this subject we heard last night some very interesting remarks. The Premier, I believe spoke for an hour and a-quarter on this subject and the Minister for three-quarters of an hour,and we certainly do not feel that that was obstruction of the business of the Ho~e, That is what this House is for,to discuss and debate these issues and principles of Government policy, The speeches were marked by one significant note.

I should probably start off by congratulating everybody on this side of the House for anything that they have ever done, because last night we witnessed a love feast. The Premier congratulated the Minister of Education for being such a great Minister. The Minister of Education congratulated the Premier on being such a great Premier.

Then,to top that off,the Minister of Education congratulated all the other Cabinet fl[inisters for agreeing to all these requests for funds for Education;and no doubt - MR.MURPHY: Mutual-admiration -society - MR.CROSBIE: A mutual-admiration society, and no doubt as each minister gets up,that minister will congratulate the other ministers for suoporting their request for funds for their own departmen -t. So, it was certainly a congratulatory meeting of this House of Assembly 2868

May 7, 1971. Tape 537. Page 3. Morning Session. last night. I would like to congratulate every one on this side of the Bouse for paving the patience to listen to it. The Hon. Minister of Education stated that he was not concerned at all about this ceneilnmotion that was passed by the N.T.A. at~ their recent convention. He said it was a matter of no concern to him. It was a matter -of no importance. It was only passed by eighty• two delegates, unani~ously, and the minister spent an half hour telling us he was not concerned. The Hon. Premier spoke about it for fifteen or twen~y minutes,to show he was not concerned.

So, if the hon. gentleman is not concerned about the fact that the official representatives of the Newfoundland.Teachers Association have passed a motion of censureon the Minister,of Education. It was a poor.way to show they were not concerned 1 by talking about it for at least three-quarters of an hour. Now, the fact remains Mr. Chairman, the eighty-two delegates to the annual N.T.A. convention at Clarenville - MR.Rfflil: Mr. Chairman, MR.CROSBIE: I did not interrupt the hon. the Minister of - MR.ROWE: On a point of privilege Mr.

Chairman. lf the hon. geatle~an ia going to quote me or refer to what I said 1 he should state the facts. He has already made two misrepresentations this morning here~ Be said that I got up and congratulated the Premier last nig~t. I have often congratulated the Premier.I did not congratulate him laat night. Now that is for the record. I .did not say one single complimentary word to the Premier last night.· The fact of the matter is, not that I could not have,I did not. The hon. gentleman gets up and says I did. Now that is misrepresentation number one.

The other one 1 he said that I was not concerned, that I said that I was not concerned with that vote of censure. I said nothing of the· kind.I was very much concerned about it and I was concerned with it 2869

May 7, 1971. Tape 537. Morning Session. because I was censured for. the w~oog thing. That is wh~ I was concerned, and that is why I have tried to set the record straight. I do not want the history books,for what they are worth.to say that I was censured for something that I could not be censured for, namely a column of which I knew nothing and which was repudiated in my behalf. 'Ihat~is what I said. ~ was concerned.

I said it is no concern of mine, these were my words 1 if they want to censureme for the stand . that I took with regards to the N.T.A.t I would not lose any sleep over it I have not and I do not intend to. That is what I said• How stick to the facts,if you are going to quote me/Ir. Chairman. MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I am not going to quibble with the hon. minister about the facts. If he did not congratulate the Premier directly I am sure that that was aa,omission of t~e heart.

The Minister did congratulate all of his colleagues in the Cabinet so that included the P~emier,but if be wants it on the record that he did not congratulate the Premier last night I accept that. Let us stTaighten out the record ' that he did not last night congratulate the Premier. He will do it today the Hon. Minister will., as far as the censure motion 1the Minister said it was of no importance or consequence and spent about three-quarters of an hour on ~t,as he is doing this morning. The fact remains,Mr.

Chairman 1 that the eighty-two delegates to the annual meeting of the N.T.A.,which represents six or seven thousand teachers,has passed·a motion of censure on the Minister of Education. Now the Min~ster said they should have censured him for some other thing they should not have censured him for the column in the Daily News but that should have censyred him for something else. Well, I agree. they should and they did, and to pretend that these eighty-two, that this is only eighty­ two teachers out of the six or seven thousand teachers ·in Newfoundland ill really a bit thick.

We are only forty-two people out of t~e 500,000 in this,.Province but we certainly claim in this House that we collectively 287.0

• May 7, 1971. Tape 537. Page 5. Morning Session. represent the 500,000 people. The eighty-two teachers who gathered at this convention in Clarenville represented the six or seven thousand teachers in Newfoundland.that is their official 1 these are their elected delegates and they were certainly representing the views of the people who elected them to go to the convention. There is no way of getting around that. So, whether ,there w~eighty-two teachers at the convention or 160 or 500 or twentyythat was the official voice of the H.T.A, which unanimously ha~ condemned the Minister and censured him.

We are glad to know that this has not bothered the Minister and we agree he should be cens~red for something else,perhaps not theNDaily II News column, he baa explained that. ., " But the Daily News column reflects a feeiing that the Government certainly exhibited in those negotiations­ Now last night,Mr. Cpairman, the Minister said,in connection with collective bargaining,that the ~ublic Service Collective Bargaining Act, passed last year,could, he is advised by his legal advisers, could be applied to the teachers of Newfoundland. Well, that is just not good enough,Mr. Chairman.

That Legislation has been found unsatisfactory by every labour body in the Erovince. At the present time the New- foundland Federation of Labour is campaigning to have the Government not proclaim the Public Service Bargaining Act passed by this House last year because the Act leaves everything in the complete control and power of the Government.

It delegates all power to the Lieutenant­ Bovernor in Council, the Cabinet, who are to decide everything by reg~ation. 11i.e Civil Service,as far as I know, the union, and certainly _the Newfoundland Federation of Labour,does not want it proclaimed because it is not true callective bargaining legislation and because it gives the employees no real authority or power. So, for the Minister to say that this can be applied to the N.T.A. is to say nothing, is to say that an obnoxious piece of legislation,enacted . by Government through this House,could be applied to the teachers . 2871

I May 7. 1971. Tape 537 Page 6. Morning Session. That is not what is needed Mr. Chairman. What is needed is special collective bargaining legislation for the teachers of this Province alone, As I suggested last night,that should include - I think the teachers are a special group that should have their own special collective bargaining mechanism. Ai I suggested last night 1 Mr.

Chairman 1 there should be 1 that should include a beard 1 some­ thing like the railway. relations labour board in the United States, who will be able to give,when there is a dispute,an impartial report to both sides and to the public as to just what the facts are that are at issue 1 So that we do not have a situation as we did last winter, ~here the Government is making one kind of statement about the salaries offered and how they compare with the maritimes and the teachers are claiming something entirely different and the public has no way of knowing who is correct.

For example;it is useless just to compare salary levels. As I said yesterday afternoon. what you have to do is compare the salaries of teachers in Newfoundland to other wages and salaries paid in Newfound­ land as they relate to the salaries of teachers, say, in the Maritimes, as compared to the rates of the salaries and wages paid in the Maritimes or Ontario or wherever, It is of no value whatsoever Just to compare one group of salaries to another. How dq they relate to each proviocial economy is the important thing.

What is the cost of living and what are all the various factors/ If you had an impartial board 1qualified and equipped to determine these facts,you would have a lot less trouble when the two par~ies could not agree 1 because public opinion would be swayed considerably by what such a board repo~ted. So · that there is more thought needed.Mr. Chairman, to the whole subject of collective bargaining between Government and the N.T.A. There is no proper framewo~k now. It is simply a matter at the grace of the Government,no proper proced.ure set down for i~1 ~o proper 2872

May 7, 1971. Tape 537. Page 7. Morning Session. conciliation procedure and no provision for the regular conduct of collective bargaining at all. I say now that there will be a lot 1110re trouble in connection with bargaining between the N.T.A and the Government unless some system,as requested by the Newfoundland Teachers Association 1 is instituted. The Hon. the Premier,when he was speaking,referred to certain programmes that the Minister of Education, he said,had been responsible for introducing into this Province.

He did not mention the fact, the programme of free tuition and allowances for Memorial University students, nor did he announce the introduction,by the Government and the Premier, of a needs test in connection with these free tuition and allowances. He forgot that. The Hon. the Premier forgot to mention that in 1967 a programme was introduced of eliminating school taxes and assessments in this Province, which have not been eliminated.

"the Minister of the Government - in fact he was Minister of Finance and he was the one1 in bis Budget Speech, in the Minister's Budget Speech in 1967,he announced that school fees: {now they are called assessments~and school taxes will have to be continued to be permitted to be imposed for capital purposes, and for salaries of specialists teachers and that kind of thing. So that 2873

May 7th, 1971 Tape 538(Morning) JM - 1 ]'fR. CROSBIE: the school taxes and school fees now called assessments are still present in the Province. Now the Minister or the Premier elaborated last night,and it was quite interesting,on the Government's views with respect to taking over all the capital cost of school construction.

The Minister,at the conference in January,spoke on that and in subsequent newspaper interviews the Minister has said that what he said was; "The immediate inititation of studies and consultations.with a view to having the Government take over, without prejudice to denominational rights, full and total responsibility for the construction of·.1all schools, thus eliminating school assessments and discriminatory school taxes of all kinds whatsoever." Now that was only a partial statement, Mr.

Chairman, because it obscured the fact which the Premier had mentioned last ni~ht and had to mention,that if the Government takes over full and total financial responsibility for the construction of all schools,eliminating school assessments and school taxes,that this would have to be replaced by further taxation.

In other words; if the Government take over the full capital cost of schools,-if the Government stop school taxes and school assessments,the Government,to ~et that revenne,will have to impose further Provincial taxes and the Government has not suggested or elaborated at all what kind of taxation this would be replaced with. What will be the nature of the tax? Would it be a~·property tax throughout the Province, a general property tax? Would it be another increase in the SSA tax or the gasoline tax or the income tax,because this Province has very few tax sources, Mr.

Chairman, and they are already beinp, used almost to their limit? The sales tax is seven per-cent, the gasoline tax is twenty-five cents a ga~lon, the personal income tax in Newfoundland went up last year,imposed by the Province,five per-cent. So what tax is the Government thinking of imposing 1if they take over all these responsibilities? The Minister made a statement that was designed to obscure this issue. His statement was made, it was a political statement made to try .to get the 2874

May 7th, 1971 Tape 538(Morning) JM - 2 MR. CROSBIE: public convinced that the Government was p,oing to do away with school taxes and assessments anc. that it would not be replaced with any other taxation. Tiis news lette~ of February 1971,rloes not mention that problem at all. ln fact the prohleMs just are not mentioned. ~!ow I agree with the proposed policy of the Government,~s announced by the Premier last night,but if this is what the Government are considering,then we are entitled to know what kind of taxation the Government are considering it is going to replace the school fees and school assessments with.

Is it a real pronerty tax as suggested in the Royal Commission Report, the Warren Co!!ll!lission? Members of the House will remember that in the Warren Co11D11ission Report they reco!ffllended that this be done, that the Government take over the capital cost of schools and they recommended further that there be a real property tax imposed on the whole Province,by the Government, to collect money for school purposes.

If it is the Government's policY, as the Premier has announced 1 to do this, to take over all the cost of schools, to elimina~e school taxes and school assessments at some indefinite ti~e in the future, surely this is the time to tell the people of Newfoundland,before the election of 1971,what taxation the Government are going to impose to do this. Because, Mr.

Chairman, the Govermnent have announced this policy, If t~e Government win the election this year,between 1971 and the next election they will implement this policy and they will have to impose further severe increase of taxation in this Province to carry it out. So that before the election of 1971 is held.the Government should tell this House and tell the people of Newfoundland what taxation the Government are contemplating to impose when they eliminate school taxes and school assessments. Is it to be an increase of one or two per-cent on the SSAt Is it to be an increase in the personal income tax?

Is it to be an increase in the ~asoline tax? Is it to be all three of those? Is it to be a province-wide real property tax? Just how are they are going to implement that? It is no 2875

Hay 7th, 1971 Tape 538(Morning) JM - 3 ~. CROSBIE: ~ood announcing just one•half of the policy, the half that will be popular, the half that involves removing the present school fees and school taxes 1and announcing that the Government proposes to take over all capital cost of schools. That sounds wonderful, ~at sounds terrific ·until you look a little further and ask; where is,the revenue coming from to replace that lost revenue and the extra revenue needed? We know, Mr. Chairman, that this Government has the Province now in a very binding financial position.

We know that the Government have to b,orrow $98. million this year, to balance the Budget. We know that it had to borrow last year a minimum of $82. million, and that is not properly explained,but a minimum of $82. million last year to balance the Budget. So obviously the Government cannot take over all school construction, cannot eliminate the school tax and school assessments without replacing it with other revenue. Certainly the Government of Canada are not goi~g to comP along and say, ''We are going to finance it for you," So I believe, Mr.

Chairman, that the Government owes the people of this Province and this House an explanation of what taxation it is considering imposing when it does implement the policy of taking over all capital costs of construction of schools. Let not the Government go to the electorate and attempt to be re-elected this year on the basis of this policy,without telling the electorate what is involved in this proposal and without telling the electorate what is the present indebtedness of the churches and school.boards of Newfoundland in connection with schools they already have. The figure, Mr.

Chairman, would be in the tens of millions of dollars. School boards at the preseftt time owe tens of millions of dollars for the schools that are already constructed in the Province. What is this total if the Government take over this indebtedness? What is the al'!Ount of that indebtedness? What is the interest charges being r,aid each year? What was the total interest paid last year by the churches and school boRrds of the Province in connection with their capital deht that 2876

May 7th, 1971 Tape 538(Morning) JM - 4 MR . CROSBIE: the Government would have to take over 1 which would have to be added to the Government's debt with the interest having to be paid by the Government out of the revenue of the Province? It is not good enough just to announce what appears to be a glamorous soundin~ policy,without ~he Government expanding on what the problems involved are. Is it $20. million or $30. million of debt to be taken over? How much revenue would have to be found? How will the Government find the revenue? Let us have a few words on that.

Last night we heard about the positive side of the policy,so let us hear about the other sides that are involved in such a policy,before this House closes or before the election is called. There is one thinr, the Newfoundland people can be sure of, if the Government implement that policy,there will be further severe increases in taxation, and we are entitled to know what kind of taxes they may be and how much they may amount to, not as in the last election,in 1966,when no mention of tax increase was ~ade,with the Government increasing taxes for the next three years after that, once the election was over.

So I would like the Minister to be responsible and give us now some indication of what is involved in that proposed new pol_icy. The hon. the Premier, Mr. Chairman, also mentioned the fact that the Government had instituted a checkoff of teachers' dues. There is a checkoff system _for the NTA and out of everyone of their pay checks the Government deduct the dues they pay the NTA and pay them over to the NTA~ The Premier did not mention, Mr.

Chainnan, that the Government are also taking six per-cent out of the teachers' salary cheques for pension purposes,and the Premier did not mention that that six per-cent that the Premier is deducting from the teachers' salaries,for pension contributions,is being turned over,not to the teachers, it is being turned over to the ~eneral revenue of this Province. It is ~oinp, in the ~eneral revenue to pay .for all the operations of the Government. 2877

May 7th, 1971 Tape 538(Morning) JM - 5 MR. CROSBIE: As I mentioned yesterday, and the Premier made, of course, frantic attempts to stop it being mentioned, as I mentioned yesterday,the teachers' pension contributions this year are going to amount to $1,200,000. and the teachers' pensions to be paid out this year amount to $760,000. and it is estimated that there will-be $150,000. in refunds. So that is $910,000. 1 leaving the Government with $290,000. of the teachers money that the Government is going to just use and spend this year. The Premier forgot to mention this six p~r-cent that the Premier is deducting.

MR. ROWE(F.W): Would the hon. gentleman permit a correction? MR. CROSBIE: No. MR. ROWE: Well, on a point of privile~~ then, Mr. ehairman. HR. CROSBIE: No, it is not a point of privileg~Pr- MR. ROWE: 011 a point of privilege, Mr. Chairman. MR. CROSBIE: It is a point of obstruction. MR. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman has a dozen times said that the teachers are paying six per-cent, that we are collecting six per~cent. ~at is incorrect. The actual amount is either three per-cent or four per-cent, depending on which plan they are on.and I want to correct it.

I let it go once,as I thought it was a slip of the tongue,but he has used it a dozen times. The figure is three per-cent and/or four per-cent. HR. CROSBIE: Well, then, Mr. Chairman, three per-cent or four per-cent or whatever per-cent it amounts to $1,200,000. HR. ROWE: Well, it is just as well to get it right,is it not? Is it not just as well to get the figure right? MR. CROSBIE: Well, I am glad the Minister gave the figure. Why did he not do it earlier?

In the case of civil servants it is six per-cen~ Does the Minister deny that, that six per-cent the Minister is taking from the civil servants and the Minister says.in the case of teachers ,three and fou~ per­ cent? All right it is three and four per-cent. The total is $1,200~000, from 2878

May 7th, 1971 Tape 538(Morning) JM - 6 MR, CROSBIE: the salaries of teachers 1going to the Government this year of which the Government are only returning $910,000. They are _retaining $290,000. and, as I said yesterday~the Government are not paying the teachers interest on their money, it is not going into a trust fund, they are receiving no interest on it, it is just going int9 the general revenue. So, when the Premier was aentioning,last night,all of the things that the Government was doing for the HTA,that is one thing he neglected to mention, the pension contributions the Government is using.

The Premier mentioned last night also the amount the Government were spending on education and how education had to have the first priority, There are not too many would disagree with that . But, Mr. Chairman, the Government can educate the young people of Newfoundland all it likes,if there are no ~obs in Newfoundland for them to use their skills on then that is not enough. ~HON.MEMBER: The hon. gentleman is learning. MR. CROSBIE: The hon. gentleman did not need to learn that. He~knew that long ago and he has expressed it many times. They have to have the jobs. The Jhing that is interesting about that,Mr.

Chairman, is that the kind of jobs _ the Government are attempting to create in Newfoundland, the kind of industries they are trying to attract to Newfoundland are the capital intensive industries. It is the same point as Mr. Eric Kierans made, Mr. Chairman, when he resigned from the Federal Cabinet last week.

His general criticism of the tax and financial policies of the Government of Canada was that the effect of them all is that the Government of Canada is eqcouraging capital intensive industry in Canada and not labour intensive industry, that because of the tax laws . and the rest of it, it encourages large investments of capital and automation and not use of labour and the kind of industries that the Government 7 with the excepti6n of the Pulp and Paper, Javelin Mill, more labour intensive. Even there it is $100. million investment to get perhaps, including loggers, 1,500 jobs. 2879

May 7th, 1971 Tape 538(Morning) JM - 7 MR. CROSBIE: The Come by Chance Oil Refinery operation, tremendously capital intensive, between $160. million to $200. million including the wharf and customs duties, I would say $200. million, I have been proven right, to create 350 odd jobs. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, are we on economic development, oil refineries? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, last night the Premier spoke on this subject and I am speaking on the same subject, education in relation to jobs. I am making a point that it is _useless to educate.

We have in the Province at the present moment 3,000 or 4,000 graduates of technical and trade schools and the university who cannot.J~et jobs here. There was a chap who called me yesterday, He is a graduate of the University,with a BA and, I think, a B.Com. He also had some engineering training. He has been looking now for five weeks and cannot find any employment in Newfoundland and says he will have to leave for the mainland in two weeks if he cannot,and that can be repeated over and over. The point is, Mr.

Chairman, that in addition to training people we have to have jobs for them to work at and if we are going to use our resources, hugh amounts of our resources, hugh amounts of our credit - $160. to $200. million to create 350 jobs at Come by Chance,that is a misuse of our credit because we are not getting sufficient benefit from it,but with the same amount of capital employed in other ways and other kinds of industries would produce more jobs. MR. ROWF.: (Inaudible) • MR. CROSBIE: But what is the good, as Mr.

Kierans has just saidjimproving productivity is not enought If the central issue is IDlemployment in Canada or in the Western world and it certainly is in Newfoundland, Newfoundland has 15.3 per-cent unemployment now, what does productivity matter if all those people are unemployed? What matter is it to us if the oil refinery at Come by Chance is tremendously productive? It is all automated. It is not going to employ many people here in Newfoundland. Its profits,when they do make 2880

May 7th, 1971 Tape 538(Morning) JM - 8 MR, CROSRIE: profits,are going to go for the most part to the United States to the people who own the equity in it, That is not the kind of industrial development that is going to create jobs - 2881

~ay 7 .· 1971 (Horning) Tape No. 539 NC - 1 MR. CROSBIE· So it is not enough,as the Premier agreed, of course he has said many times himself, just to educate people. Ia fact h~ mentioned it last ni~ht. They have got to have the jobs available to them here in Newfoundland and that is certainly one of the things that.oare lacldn~ now. Look at how many graduates there are of our trade and vocational schools, who at the present time cannot get employment.

And when are they going to get employmentt They cannot afford to wait around very long to get it, So 1110nth by 1110nth the figures show they are leaving Newfoundland to go elsewhere • . Now I agree with the educational policies. People should be educated to develop their skill, whether they are manual or intellectual, or whatever.Sven if they have to leave Newfoundland, we should have this pol {ey anyway. And we all agree that, as far as possible, we want them to remain here and to create 1obs for them here •. lven if there were no possibility of that, we should still educate everybody who .is educatable.

But the point is,Mr, Chatman, that the problem of creating the jobs_ that are needed for these people •·in Newfoundland has not even begun to be tackled in a satisfactory way by the Govemment. llhat labour•intensive industry has been created in Newfoundland in the last three or four years? Name one. There is a possibility of one at ~tephenville now,'IUCO, I think that is the name of it, industries that I think will employ two or three hundred for relatively little capital perhaps a million and a half dollars, no Provincial money.

Now that is the kind of thin~ that we do need here, that sotmds very sensible, that is the kind of industry we should encourage here.But when you think, Mr. Chatman. t~at the industry to go in Stephenville, I think it is FKO,(is it not 'lt.~O !lectronicsl) will employ eoae three hundred people, and the oil ref:tnerv at r'ome By Chance will employ perhaps three hundred and fifty or four hundred, 'lbu see a tremendous difference. In one case· it needs capital 2882

~ay 7 1971 (~orning) Tape No. 539 NC - 2 MR, CROSBIE.1 and the Government is not guaranteeing it, of a million and a-half dollars and in the other case it has a capitol investment of a minimum. of a hundred and sixty and probably two hundred million, all tied 111) with our capital, out of which we are told there may come other petro­ chemical industries which are not large employers of labour either. They are automative. Are they? Well most of them are capital intensive,automated and do not provide an awful lot of jobs.

So the kind of industry 1 would like to see the Government concentrate on is this type like the R..~n Elect~onic,one that sounds very promising 1 in Stephenville. ~o these are some of the serious issues that are raised by what was said last night, I must say I listened to the Premier's speech with Rreat interest, It was one of his better ones in the House this Session, I would say, And as bsual he paints a terrific vision • . ~ ~1_T~ Thanks, but I cannot return the compliment, 1 must say. ~. ~n~RIF.• ~o.

I do not want the Premier to return the compliment. ~ALT.l•TOn'l'l: It is almost getting beyond hmnan endurance. ~._EtOSBT.E: Oh yes, 'Nit, SMALLWOOl'.!.:_ The press are gone. The public are gone. The House is emety. The hon. gentleman's stubbornness u · frightening,Jbut go plow right on: ~.!!:~ No one can speak except the Premier. Mr. Cbairamr, would you like me to continue or do you think 1 should stop?

The hon, the Premier does not want any issues discussed in this Rouse, any of the Province discussed, just glorious visions, that have led us where we are now and we are - well down to sink hole now. ~! !ll~LT}-100'1')• There he goes, There is the oratory. The •loquence of the man: HR. CROSBIE: The Premier got her sunk. That is where we are now. We are inking fast. So Mr. Chairman, last night the hon. Premier spoke an hour and fifteen minutes.~ Now he has not got the courtesy to listen to anyone else for fifteen or twenty minutes. That is the pity of it. Of course the 2883

May 71 1971 (Moming) 1;; Tape No. 539 Ml.. CROSBIE: The Premier is not used to listening to people. NC - 3 MR. ROWE (F.W.): The hon. gentleman already spoke an hour on this very subject. MR. CROSBIE: The hon. gentleman spoke fifteen minutes yesterday and he ia speaking twenty minutes this morning and 1f he thinks he has more to say he can speak another twenty minutes. Ml.. ROWE: Yes~of course. MR. SMALLWOOD: Even if he has nothing to say he will still do it. MR. CROSBIE: tl1ifortunately, Mr. Chairman, I think I have just about covered the subject. I have raised s0111e issues.

I would like to hear the Premier go into the problems MR. SMALLWOOD: The hon. member wants to know; covered it with what? MR. CROSBIE: Not with what the Premier covered it with last night. No there was no need of another load of that. This is just some common sense. Thia 1a just asking the Government to e:xplain,when they carry out their policy of taking over all capital cost, what taxes does the lremier plan to impose? Might he mention a few words about that1 Will he tell the House something about that? That is all we are asking. We are pointing out some of the proble111S.

We are pointing out the problems of jobs. The Premier does not want jobs discussed. We are pointing out the problem that if school fees and assessments are eliminated, what are they going to be replaced by? These are some of the iHues. The Premier wants to slip into an election,announcing the glorio~ new policy that eliminates school fees and assessments and taxes and does not say what they are going to be replaced wit~. He does not want to hear that discussed in the House. Naturally, he does not want that point. That is boring 1to point that out.

Very boringl The Premier does not want the pension contributions mentioned. It is definitely poor to mention that. And the Premier does not want to discuss failure of the Government's industrial development 2884

May 7, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 539 NC - 4 MR, CROSBIE: policy to create jobs, 1 asked a question here at the last Session, Mr. Chairman, which 1 repeat at this Session, how many jobs do the Government consider it has created in the last year, that was 1970 and in 1969. and where were those jobs created? The question was not answered last year, it has not been answered this year. In the Speech from the Throne last year, it was claimed that the Government would create,laa.t year, fifteen thousand jobs, where were they? MR. MURPHY: Fifteen thousand to eighteen thousand. MR.

CROSBIE: Yes, fifteen to eighteen thousand. What jobs _-_did the Government create laat year? What jobs has it created this year? The Government do , not want to give that information. They want to talk about jobe, but it do• not want to give much information on them and the people who are looking for jobs are not much interested in the Government's talking about it. They are interested in what is being done about it and there has been very precious little done. We had a new Minister of Economic Development, there has been a little progress since then •.

When that portfolio was turned over to the new Minister he started to set about things in the right· vay. Be 1a aoing to reorganize the Department, we saw his plan outlined at the Diaarmament- Conference. Be is going to have a Development Corporation. Be is going to have an Advisory Board of Newfoundland businessmen. Be is going about it in the right way. Theae are good aolid ideas. MR. SMALLWOOD (J .R.): Bow. about a little talk DOW OD Fisheries then after that on Finance and •••• MR. CROSBIE; The Minister is going about it in the right vay.

Be has attracted an industry to Stephenville that is labour intensive. 2885

May 7, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 539 NC - 5 MR. CROSBIE: But the Minister of Economic Development before him was a total failure in the job, because it was a one'1!1an operation run out of a shoe box, or out of the Premier's head. But now, thank Heavens,we have a new Minister who seems to be overcoming some of the problems created by his predecessor. Last year we ~ad a brilliant Minister of Health, this year we have a brilliant Minister of Economic Development, next year they both will be gone. They are too brilliant. Such brilliance cannot -exist in the Cabinet with the hon. the Premier. HON.

MEMBER: Is that why the hon. gentleman is over there? HR. CROSBIE: That is partly the reason. Yes, like there is only room for one sun king. The moon beams have to vanish when there is a sun king and they will be vanishing from that Cabinet too. So Mr. Chairman, I do not want to be accused by the Premier of speaking too long. I think I have spoken for perhaps half an hour. I know it is common sense stuff, it is raising some of the problems, some of the issues• •N aw I am quite prepared to listen to the Premier and Minister of Education outline how they are going to meet some of the issues I have raised. HR.

SMALLWOOD: Three.quarters of an hours, not perhaps half an hour, %here is no perhaps about it. It is three.quarters of an hour every day. All about nothing, bilget HR. CROSBIE: Bilge1 It is about nothingf It is about the taxes. It is about the taxes the Premier is going to have to impose. It is about collective bargaining of the teachers. HR. SMALLWOOD: Do you know the short word for foul wind? HR. CROSBIE: Oh my,listen to it~ Just listen to it! The hon. Premier will be put out of his misery when the election comes. He will not be back in the Bouse next year to listen, unless he is listening from 2886

May 7, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 539 MR. CROSBIE: Florida on a short wave radio. ~MALLWOOD: Or Bermuda. NC - 6 MR. CROSBIE: Perhaps the Premier is going to buy a place in Bermuda. I do not know. I do not know where the Premier is going to buy a place next. MR. SMALLWOOD: And join the hon. gentleman's league. MR. CROSBIE: So,Mr. Chairman, I will now wait for the Premier to expound on how the Government plans to meet the problems that their new policy will create and on some of the other issues I have raised. MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, just a couple of points that I want to clarify~ which arose last night.

I was mentioned by the Premier on two points only. MR. SMALLWOOD: Make a speech. Walk out. MR. CROSBIE: I am going to get a glass of water because you are too cheap to have a couple of boys here in the morning. MR. SMA_g.WOOD: Short of waterf MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, if I might ·have the floor for a ·moment.

The Premier last night apparently thought that only two comments which I made yesterday were worthy of comment so,as these were done in such a way that they reflected upon me, I think I should clarify them. ~ I did not make any pretext of quoting the Premier verbatim when I mentioned that he had praised the hon. Minister of Education, Of course,the Premier then proceeded to do exactly what I had said he was doing, He was really praising the Minister of Education and the Minister of Education later confirmed it by graciously acknowledging it. So this is all good stuff, it is all right.

It reminds me of this boxer, Ali Mohammed, the greatest. He refers to people like this famous boxer, Mohammed Ali, or something of this sort, now only history will give the answer to this question. I do not think anybody in this House today are qualified to say who is or who is not, or who may·be the greatest, That will develop as history 2887

May 71 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 539 NC - 7 MR. E~RLE: shows the true effect of the policies which various ministers introduced. But I had no rank or no ulterior motive in just mentioning this. It was only light banter at the opening of a speech actually and I was glad, as I said yesterday, that it succeeded in bringing forth a biL of an eulogy for the ·hon. the Minister of Education, because as I said it had been a long time between drinks, and we had not heard too much praise of the Minister lately and I am sure that his constituents of Grand Falls were wondering what happened to him.

So it was nice to bring all this out,and he got a well deserved compliment yesterday. Just to get down to a :couple of more serious points. I shall not be long but the Premier,in his speech, drew a comparison between what was happening in Scotland, the Scottish•education system and how it had encouraged people to fight for education over and above all else, even sometimes ~t sacrifices to themselves,and the result was the dominant role which Scottish people have played throughout the world.

I think that is worthy of co11111ent because Scotland does give us great reason for inspiration in this particular field.~ut just let ae clarify how they go about it, which is so completely different from what we do in Newfoundland that I think the comparison is completely wrong. In Scotland, and I have seen many of their. ·universities over there, they are old universities and the facilities and the space which the student occupy in many cases, are ancient and rather decrepid and certainly nothing of a very modern nature.

There has been building in recent years,but the point which I am making is that students in Scotland go to these places under almost privation conditions. They are very substantially helped by the state but there is none of the ostentation which we see in North America. The money is spent on education and the students do it the hard way,believe me. 2888

May 7, 1971 (Morning) 'rape No. 539 NC - 8 MR. £ABLE: 'rhere is none of this great hoi polloi and all the spit and polish you might call it, that we are so used to in North America. ~ SMALLWOOD: 'rhey are right too, quite right. We are wrong and they are right. MR. EARLE: 'rhey are right.

This is the very point. 1 am glad the Premier agrees with me because over here we are spending tremendous sums of money on education. 1 Mntioned particularly the University yesterday, The question that often arises in my mind is;bov 11111ch of it is necessary or how much of it is just window-dressing1- Tbe Scottish people have a vei-y broad form of education which goes into many facets of the after-life of these students 28~9

May 7th. 1971 Tape 540 (morning) PK - 1 MR. EARLF.: Just a couple of illustrations which I think will confirm wha~ I am saying. In the field of recreation there is a great thing in Scotland which I wish could be brought into being in Newfoundland. All of the greatest states and all of the counteyeide in Newfoundland regardless 1 in Scotland, regardless of the fact that it may be privately owned, is open, By hiking trails and free access throughout the whole country, you can go through anybody's estates or over anybody's fence and walk through 1 providing you close the gate after you. MR .

SMALLWOOD: Does the hon. gentleman know why? MR. EARLE: I do not know why1 but I lcbow it is a very good thing. MR. SMALLWOOD: Foot paths were there before the land became privately owned, Once a year they go and break down the fence to maintain the right. ~his has gone on for centuries. MR. EARLE: The point is this that - MR. SMALLWOD: It is not that the private owners provided the foot paths. MR. EARLE: It does give access to a great deal of freedom.in a country auch as Scotland. MR, SMALLWOOD: Right. MR.

EARLE: I think, if some way were fomid to emulate it and copy it in this part of the world,the recreation facilities for people would be doubled 1 tripled, quadrapled and eveeything else. I would wish that some way could be found that this type of thing could be found for the benefit of the people. The beautiful rivers and so on in Scotland, wander up the side, then we were through private land and all over the place picnic sites and this sort of thing, there is no restriction at all.

The people have been so educated and taught that they respected - you do not see any litter, you cµ;, not see any disfiguration of the countryside. lou see the ~mole thing respected. This is one case where freedom of access and so on have brought out in the people the best response, because they themselves look after it tremendously well. Another point in Scotland 4 this maybe only remotely related to education, but it is a sort of upbringing that a person has, which is apart of their education. There is a law in Scotland that you cannot even let the weeds grow on your field.

If you let the weeds and dandelion and so on grow, you 2890

May 7th. 1971 Tape 540 (merning) PK - 2 MR. EARLE: will get a ticket or a summons to go and appear in court. Because you are blowing it over on some other farmers fields, it is going all over the place and the whole countryside, as it is so frequently happens in Newfoundland,becomes a mess. Now here we do not even have the courage or the stamina to clear up old car wrecks, tin cans, and disfiguration on private property which is a disgrace to the Province. This is the type of training in education and things which need to be embedded in people to make a country attractive.

Some1here along the lines our education system is falling down very badly, because we have not succeed in putting into our people the respect for these things, which I think, make a Province or a country so much better to live in. Briefly, Mr. Chairman, I would like to refer to two other things only.

The fact that when the S.S.A. ta~ was raised by one percent to cover the cost; of doing away with school fees and so on, at the time I was queationed by the hon. the Premier, as to what the cost of that might be4 I just pulled the figure out of my head, because it was a question on the spot, and I said, "$10 million." I was told that this was completely crazy at the time. Now the figures this year in the grants to schools for operations is something over $10 million. So it has not taken us very long to reach that. The return from the S.S.A. cheques this year will be roughly $4.5 million.

So the one percent is not nearly covering the cost which is now costing the Government. My only reason for referring to that is that it indicates, as it has so often indicated in the past, that _t~is loose - -~ approach to programmes and what the Government intends to do and its financial policies. Because this could be foreseen,with any careful study of the thing, the ultimate effect would be quite easily realized,what the cost would be to the Province. As I say, I only gave a rough guess, but I was not too far out.

Now so many of the prograVIIMS of Government in education, as in every­ thing else, are done on the spur of the moment. Somebody gets an inspiration 2891

May 7th. 1971 Tape 540 (morning) PK - 3 MR. EARLE: somebody thinks it is a good idea, and somebody announces it. The ultimate coat to the Province is not considered at that stage. This is my criticism of a progr8111111e of this sort. Not that the programme itself_was not a good one or not necessary because, obviously,it is. But, when we consider in education,as in everything else, the Government announce . certain steps in certain prop,rammes, it must be prepared for the landslide that comes after and the cost to the Province.

This is one of the many reasons why we are now going to spend $145 million on education this year. It just de~ends,when examining these programmes and expenditures of Government, which and what are the right priorities? And are we spending the money in the right way? For instance, the Government have been proud to announce this year that it is now once again stepping into its Vocational School Programme by building additional schools and rooms and so on.

To the best of my memory there was $12 million approximately lying up in Ottawa for years and years, which this Government could no~ avail of, although the pressure on the Vocational Schools and the space ·for these schools was in terrific demand. Now at last the Government sees fit to avail of that $12 million, so that they can extend these schools. I contend, Mr.

Chairman, that had the Government been properly aware of the problems, it would not have wasted money on other shows of ostentation and building up its own public image, ·the sort of things we see in the Newfoundland Bulletin, in the parades across country and the receptions and the dinners and all this sort of stuff. In other words, trying to depict to the public that the Government a great .Crown Prince of everything and that they were a tremendous crowd, they spend so much money on painting their own image that some of these very, very necessary programmes have to be postponed.

This is my quarrel with Government,that the necessary things, the essential things are so ofen submerged to the things which attract public attention and which build up a false image of what the Government are doing. So, Mr. Chairman, on this question of education were the total vote ia now up to $145 million, as I said yesterday, it certainly:behoves us, 2892

May 7th. 1971 Tape 540 (morning) PK - 4 MR. EARLE: if not in everything else, here the expenditure has to be watched very carefully, and if we on this side of the House questioned each and every item, we are doing it not just for the sake of delaying the work of the House, but we are doing it because there is a geniune and real need of trying to keep the expenses within a limit in this tremendously expensive department of Government. MR. T. A. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, may I have a wordl MR. SMALLWOOD: St.re him down. He is only an out•harbourman. He is only an out• harbourman stare him down. MR.

EARLE: One against the other, two out- harbourynen. MR. HICKtfAN: Mr. Chairman, we think it is a metropo]j.e and the hon. minister does too. There are just two c~nts that I would like to make, Mr. Chairman, arising out of the comments of the hon. the Premier last night. One, I think, the hon. the Premier was quite right in coming to ·. ' the defence@ his Minister of Education.

I would not like for the Minister 7 of Education to be left with the impression that anyone on this side of the Bouse, I can certainly speak for myself with absolute certainty; rejoiced in any diffcultiea in which the hon. the minister found himself with hie profession,of recent weeks. It may~be understandable, but I suggest that when we have the explanation of the dreadful

article in the magazine that in the"naily " News that the hon. minister should not have been linked to it. My concern ie,insofar aa the hon. minister's operation is irrelevant,is that we have a man who has unquestioned qualifications in the field of education. And the man who,when he returned from the University of Toronto with hie doctorate in 1950,could have had gone into University and availed of all the sabbatical leave and today he would be sitting pretty at the University • . !ut he gave up that and obviously, it was a scarifice and it is something that he is not going to be able evet again to make up.

I believe that the problem that arose with the N.T.A.,insofar as the hon. minister is concerned ,was not simply an article, it was be.cause his professional confr~res fully realized his capabilities mtd have somehow 2893 , .. .,

May 7th. 1971 Tape 540 (morning) PK- 5 MR. HICKMAN: come to the conclusion that his capabilities,the use of them, have been thwarted. I suggest to the hon. minister and to this House that we saw an example of that ag4in last night, I do nottmind the hon. the Premier defending and praising one of his ;ministers; that is his responsibility, as Leader and as Premier. But, in my opinion, Mr. Chairman, that is where it should have stopped.

I think it is an absolute insult to any minister of the Crown, and it was an absolute insult to the hon. the Minister of Education that _ instead of he dealing with the 11uestions and answering the questions and annunicating Government's policy,insofar as education is concerned, it came from the Premier. That, in my opinion, is what has unfortunately and regretably placed the hon. the Minister of Education in a position where he is receiving criticism from his professional confrires. which,when you bear in mind his history and his qualifications, I seriously doubt they are justified.

Many of us,and I have said this before publicly, man of us are very proud of the fact that we had the opportunity of being a pupil of the hon. the Minister of Education. I have no hesitancy in saying that in the years that I went to school at Grand Bank and subsequently in University~ I regard the instruction 1 received from the hon. minister ~.as •been comparable, if not better than that 1 received from anyone else. AN HON. MEMBER: Where did he go wrong? MR. HICKMAN: He went wrong because he was not given the opportunity to exercise his Leadership.

And I will tell you where the hon. the minister found himself on a collision course with the N.T.A., when all of this unfortunate controversy was going on. it was the hon. the Miuister of Education we expect to hear annunicate Government policy, not the Premier. This is what has turned off his confr~res and I would not like the hon. minister to think that in the opinion of his conf:Teres . that they are casting a reflection on his educational ability or his ability as an educationalist.

But, 1 think, that they believe that slowly · but .surely, he is being destroyed and this is not good and this is not right. 2894

May 7th. 1971 Tape 540 (morning) Pk - 6 MR. CROSBIE: He is destroyed. MR. HICKl-fAN: Mr. Chairman, we wanted to hear explanations from the hon, the minister. There is a point here that I am sure has caused the hon. minister some concern, or it did last night. We were talking about the OREE progra111111e and the lack of activity and the lack of trust that we have seen coming from the OREE programme. The hon. the Premier talked about the great break-through and how jealous provinces have guarded their rights insofar as education is concerned.

The only right that the provinces have been guarding is the right to decide how they spend the education money. They are quite ready, willing and able to take any money that the Government of Canada wants to provide for education. There was no great bitter fight on the part of the provinces, with the possible . exception of the Lasage Administration 1 on University Grants, and Mr. Duplessis before him. There was no great bitter fight,when the Diefenbaker Government came up with one part.of the provinces to resist,their great bitter resistance towards vocational schools.

There will never be any bitter fight insofar as any province is concerned when it comes to Federal grants for secondary education. Because, Mr. Speaker, one of the things that we have to realize in 1970 Canada, is that we have a very mobile population,that at least twenty-five percent of the married Canadians, including Newfoundl~nl~rs will move from one province to another, once or twice during their lifetime.

This is having a very unsalutatory effect on the children of these moving Canadians, or the moving Newfoundlanders, and even from one community to another, but not so much within the Province, as far as education is concerned, but moving from one province to the next. They find that the standards are different. They find that they either pick up a grade,if they move to Newfoundland, or they lose a grade if they move to Nova Scotia. This goes on. This is in a nation where there is a great call for unity.

But why the most devise factors,insofar as Canadian unity is concerned, is a total lack of any similarity or uniformity 2895

May 7, 1971 Tape 540 (morning) PK - 7 MR. HICKMAN: of instruction or opportunity insofar as education is concerned. The nurses of Newfoundland, as the hon. the Leader of the Opposition points out, face this very problem. They used to ~-.rite the American College R.N. examinations. Then they found they got into the Canadian one and they were totally unprepared for it. But, let me get back to the DREE programme: This is whee 1 would like to get some clarification from the hon. the minister, because, I do not believe that the information we got last night was quite correct.

The hon. the Premie~ in his speech said that the Government of Canada cannot give the money to the churches. Obviously, they cannot. That we do not know whether we are going to give,what we are going to do with it, whether we are going to lease thea:hools ,to the churches for $1 a year or, whether we are going to keep it, or what are we going to do with it But, this is where I would like clarification from the hon. the minister. My understanding is that that decision has long since been made. The Law is cleared.

If you own a piece of land and somebody comes and puts a building· on it, the man who owns the land, owns the building. You cannot separate the two. Property goes with the land. 2896

Morning Session. May 7, 1971 Mr. Hickman, Tape no. 541 Pagel Newfoundland~ Now one of the restrictions or one of the requirements of the school boards who are to avail of the DREE grant is that: Step 1: They must acquire title to the land upon which the building is erected. I am quite sure of this. I am right now involved in some of these transactions. So that once the school is built on MacDonald Drive or when once the school is built in Salt Pond, that school becomes the property of the school board. Now there seems to have been some confusion thrown into it last night and there was a suggestion of indecision.

I do not think there is any indecision at all. I think everybody is clear,or up until last night they were clear, The title to the schools will vest in the school boards. This has to be the w~y. How else can the school boards administer the buildings? This is why I think it was unfortunate that the hon. minister was not given an opportunity to deal with the DREE programme which has '.'unfortunately" and I emphasize unfortunately because there is someone - I know there is someone dragging his heels insofar as DB.EE is concerned, -and I do not believe it is within the Province.

I am sure the hon. minister would happen to agree that we have lost a year - unnecessarily lost a year on these DRE'E schools. Experimentation, the fact that it is the beginning, is not an ezcuse, We have had so many Federal/Provincial Programmes already that with the right attitude, the right intention and the right sympathy - I am sure that we appreciate Mr. Marchand'& problem that he believes his main thrust and he believes that his act emphasizes that the main thrust has to be on the creation of jobs, the cre~tion of industry and that the infrastructure comes second.

Because of the fact that we are so far behind in this Province, we, naturally, are trying to place the emphasis on infrastructure. But choices have to be made and now we have had the Province of Quebec coming on the scene with very substantial depressed areas putting extreme pressure on the minister to get that same dollar that we hope would be used in the beginning exclusively for the Atlantic Provinces. I think the minister owes it to this c0111111:1ttee to clarify once and for 2897 -,'

May l, 1971 Tape no. 541 Page 2 Mr. Rickman. all the ownership of the DREE schools and secondly to give us some indication of what problems he is encountering in getting this fund. HR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, first of all a few words with regard to school financing. We have seen the Government take different positions down through the years whereby each of them have been thrown out and assessments have been brought in and assessments have been thrown out and taxes brought in. Whatever.the result of that has been, Mr.

Chatrman, one thing is very sure and very plain and that is that the school boards across the Province, especially the achool boards in the larger communities,are in debt tn their ears. This Certainly inhibits their work in trying to improve existing facilities.and coming up with additional facilities. We all know, Mr.

Chairman, that in many of the larger centres across the Province we have what is known as school tax authorities,whereby the citizens,the property owners in places like Gander, Lewiaporte, Corner Brook and other areas,have been paying an assessment on their property.in Gander, I belive it is a five mil rate, which is a considerable amount of money,Mr. Chairman. It was made necessary because of the fact that adequate funds from the Government were not available to provide the school facilities which the people needed and which the people bad to have.

I take great delight in hearing members of this Government say that school boards and others have no right to turn away a kindergarten pupil in September or indeed to turn away a Grade I student or a Grade II student or whatever grade it might he. Ways and means must be found whereby those children can enter a classroom whatever grade it might be. Very often, Sir, while this repponsibility is accepted by everyone, very often the responsibility for finding the funds rest with the people in the communities mentioned.

We all know that a couple of years ago, when the new1Education Act was brought into this House and was passed, establishing the larger boards, larger units of administration across the Province, I think it wu the Government's intention,although they never admitted this, that some of the larger communities would be willing and indeed they were, would be willing to share 2898

May 1, 1971 Tape no. 541 Page 3 Mr. Collins some of their funds in trying to improve the facilities in some of the smaller places which goes to make up the board. As I said, people in the larger communities did not mind this too much. But, Sir, there comes a time when the load becomes unbearable. I would sugges _t, Sir, that we have reached the stage in Newfoundland now,in terms of school financing, where the load has become unbearable for the people in the communities who are paying property assessments.

Now we have heard in this session of the House that the Government are considering assuming total responsibility for financing education. I do not know how this is going to be brought about for a ~overnment that has been delinquent, unable to provide the funds which have been needed down through the years,even though that has been subsidized by property assessments in the larger communities.

I do not see how they can come up with funds to provide the facilities for all of the smaller areas in Newfoundland, unless the Government have in mind imposing a property tax on all of the people around the coast of Newfoundland. It is all very good for the Government t~ say in an ·election year; that we are going to assume full responsibility.

But by assuming full responsibility, funds must be found. ·Unless funds are available from the general revenue fund (I do not see how they are) I would say that the Government plan, as soon as the election is over, to introduce a property tax across Newfoundland,whereby people in places like Musgrave Harbour and Hibb Hole and all other areas of the Province,will be required to pay a tax on their homes and so on and so forth. I would like for the minister to clarify this situation and let us know just how the Government propose to raise the necessary funds. Mr. Chairman, a word or two about regional colleges.

It seems to me that there is a great amount of politics being played with this particular topic. Many of the towns across Newfoundland are of the opinion that co111D1Unity colleges, the concept of coD1Dunity 'colleges, the introduction of them. the building of buildings 1 -is just around the corner. We find that almost every community 2899

May i. 1971 Tape no. 541 Page 4 is sending briefs to the University, sending briefs to the minister and to members of this House seeking support for the establishment of a junior college in their town. I would like for the minister to indicate to the colllDlittee just.what Government policy is? I have never seen or heard any Government policy defined. We do not know where we stand in this particular regard. I would like the minister to tell the coumdttee exactly what Government plans are in terms of regional colleges?

We know that the minister announced,during the Economic Conference and I believe it has been announced in this House,that five additional vocational ~chools are to be constructed this year: Placentia, Bonavista, Baie Verte, St. A!i•hony and there is one somewhere else. Perhaps the minister might be inclined to tell the co.nmittee just what he plans for those schools? How they are going to be operated? Are they going to be all-purpose schools? If facilities are going to be made available for recreation like auditoriums, gymnasiums, if facilities are going to be made available for community work shops, aecause, Mr.

Chairman, if ever there w~s a need in Newfoundland for anything, there is a great need for developing community leadership. Huch work has been done during the past few years by th@ people in the rural areas of the Province,in terms of organizing regional development associations and organizing community councils, local improvement districts - not local improvement districts, because those are appointed, town councils. Certainly there .is a great need for community leadership programmes and p~rhaps the minister might indicate to us what he plans for this?

With regard to vocational schools, I would also draw to the minister's ·attention again the problem, a very serious problem, in my estimation, existing because of what appears to be a lack of co-ordination,, a complete lack of co-ordination between the high school system and the vocational school system. I mentioned a little while ago that no school board across the Province dare tum away a kindergarten student or dare tum away a Grade I or Grade 11 student. It seems to me, Sir, that when those same children graduate from 2900

May 7, 1971 Tape no. 541 Page 5 MR. Collins Grade XI, while some of them might be equipped and capable of coming into the University, many of them are destined to the vocational school system. We saw last year where thousands of young Newfoundlanders, young men and women were turned away from that particular system. In my opinion, this is criminal, because,in a great many cases, their educational career stopped. It ceased right there,- Many of the young women, possibly .!nded up in restaurants~ They might have gone on to taking courses in the various beauty cultures ' and so on, home economics and what have you.

Many of the young men who could have gone on to diesel machanics and electronics and so on and so forth found that they had to look for a job in a most competitive labour market. I have no doubt in my mind at all that many of our young people were denied the right to further their education. Anotber serious problem, Mr. Chairman, with respect to vocational training is the students who go into those schools under the auspices of the Canada Manpower.

I remember that last year,when the school in Gander, and I suspect that the same thing applies to other schools, where students . entered a course in aircraft mechanics 1 sponsored by Canada Manpower. The course was a two-year course , ; Cbe first year being on aircraft frames and the second year being devoted to mechanics or engines and so on and so forth. After completing the first year, they were told that the manpower grants were avaiiable for a fifty-two week period only .and that ~hey were sorry.that they could not continue the course.

Many of those students had to drop out, if their parents could not afford to let them go on. I would presume that_after all the representations being made to the miniater,thst he has been making representations to the Federal authorities. This is a Federal matter, but certainly it is one where the minister shald become interested, concerned,and make his views known and bring pressures to bear on the Federal authorities to ensure that this fifty-two week deadline is increaeed to a hundred and two weeks and,if necessary, three years.

Because once a student decides on a particular course, then he is wasting a year if he cannot continue on the next year in that particular field. Anothe1t very serious problem in our school sytem, Mr. Chairman, is the lack of guidance counselling in many of the samller schools - in fact all of 2901

May 7, 1971 Tape no. 541 Page 6 Mr. Collins. the smaller schools. It is something which is unheard of in the rural areas of Newfoundland and indeed in most areas of St. John's. I would like to have a response from the minister on what his plans are for guidance counselling,for paychi~tric treatment in the schools as well. A few days ago we heard what I thought was a very worthwhile, a very intelligent debate concerning mental health. Certainly, if we are going to cope with that problem, then we must start where the start IIIWlt be made and that is in the elementary school system. There are a few other things, Mr. Chairman, which I would want to talk about but I believe I will 0 2902

May 7. 1971. Tape 542. Page 1. Morning Session. leave that until we come to the various headings. But first of all I would like the Minister to respond to the few comments I have made and a few questions I have raised. MR.MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, there are a few points that were brought up in the course of this debate to which I would like to make reference, principally with respect to the addresses that went on yesterday by the Hon. the Premier and the Minister of Education. There is no argument whatsoever,Mr.

Chairman, that education must be put in the forefront and it must remain:in the forefront in order for us to progress further into the twentieth century than we have been able to do so to date. Education must be there for the purpose of keeping the young people, keeping ?Ur young people and we heard,nobody is going to quibble with the Premier about his educational dreams, Of> course the question comes in, the question in everybody's mind will be which group of people can best implement these dreams. That is a determination for another form which is about to come upon us.

But in any event one of the great justifications that the Hon. the Premier used for furtherance of education was that we must use it to make Newfoundland an, exciting place to keep young people in the Province and indeed~to a large extent,h~ equated the retention of the population, the retention of young people,to educational facilities and again nobody can quibble with that. The sad fact of the matter isrMr, Chairman, that we are losing many, many young people from this Province. I hear from time to time statements made to the effect that we must keep our young people, our people in this Province itself.

These statements were made on the other side last night, I do not think is really the point, this is really too much too insular an attitude, What really matters is a relative growth of population. If we lose a thousand young people a ·year a~d they are replaced by a thousand other young people coming in or 1,500 young people coming in from other parts of Canada, the United States and the 2903

May 7, 1971. Tape 542 Page 2. Morning Session, World, well as far then as our economic feature is concerned we are in good shape. It is not the- the issue is not the fact that whether we are losing our o~'TI sons and daughters to the mainland and to the United States,but, the issue is really the relative growth in population If education is used as a yardstick for this,despite the large amounts that have been paid out bJ this Government over the past twenty ~~ars 1 we are failing rather sadly and rather miserably in this endeavour.

The Gordon Commission on Economic Prospects for Canada predicted that in June:of 1970, the population of this Province would be between 565,000 and 590,000 people, but in actual fact we have 520,000 people at the most, and this indeed is indicative. The popµlation growth, according to the Dominiaa Bureau of Statistics,for this Province bet~een years '51 and '69 is forty-nine per cent.

We hear an awfu~ lot about the increase in the gross provincial product, and I will grant that that is one, just one significant statistic, but certainly the population growth itself, the rate of growth in comparison with our sister Provinces, in comparison with the other Provinces of Canada, is probably even much more significant than the gross provincial product when you have the elements of inflation etc,, coming into consideration on that criterion.

But in all of Canada 1 for this period from '51 to '697 the population increase has been fifty per cent while in Newfoundland ~tis only fortyw two per cent and the ascendency in the population has -~railed off. I think these figures have gone down even more within recent years,which is even more alarming.

So I say,if we are going to use the at~raction of young people,and I reject the business of retention of the young people in the Province itself, 1his is an insular attitude that · is not worthy of any of us, But if we are going to talk about the attraction of young people in this Pro~ince and use this as a yardstick for the success of our educational policies,there is no doubt about it that we 2904

Hay 7, 1971, Tape 542. Page 3, ~forning Session. have failed despite the large amounts of money, proportionate amounts of money that have been pumped into education by the-Govern- ment, Points brought up by the Hon.Premier really not an issue: Everybody in this Provlnce we.nts the type of educational attainment as depicted by him in the ilowing terms,as he did last night, It is the same manner .he has year after year after year.rt was almost like the same record that we hava heard since,in '49, '50 and '51 and so on. Nobody can deny that.

But as I say,the issue confronting the people of Newfoundland to day is who can best realize the educational attainments? We cannot do this with a government that is going to cause difficulties,as it has caused difficulties from time to time with the operation of our educational facilities.

School fees. wrre to have been abolished, We heard a great treatise again for the "ntM plus ten time last night 1 to the effect that school fees were abolished. ·But in effect we all know they were not abolished and the net result of that announcement was the grave difficulty to the denominational educational heads and embarrassment,and they were forced to imposeL. school assessments. As far as the people of this Province are it concerned, as far as the young parents are concerned~could not matter less whether they collected school feas or school assessment.

The 'fact of the matter is they have to pay out money for the education of their children, Now, we hear that the Government is going to assume all the costs of education. This is a very admiral object 1 one to which we should strive,but I question again. This is where the Hon. the Minister of Education,deep down1himself,he realizes he got into difficulty at the conference, at the Economic Development Conference.

I question the uisd0111 of making announcements of this nature for political putposes when you are not ready to implement them.,because again, it is going to cause pressure and hardship Jor the people who are 2905 ,,

May 7, 1971. Tape 542. Page 4. Morning Session, operating our schools. How are we going to do it? We all agree with the spreading of the burden of Edcuation but, does this mean is the Government by the same token announcing to the people of Newfoundland that it is going to increase its taxes1 This is the question which the Minister of Education must answer.

It is not sufficient to come and give the people of this Province,the people of any country for that matter, the impression that the Government is going to pay for everything and you are not going to have to participate at all, It is obviously going to cost money,and there is going to be an increase in taxes. Now it · is incumbent upon the Government to tell us what the taxes, what type of taxes, are they going to be universal, real property taxes.as have been recommended!

Certainly if this scheme is brought in, I say this without any hesitation that consideration has to be given to property owners who ~appen to be pensioners over the age of sixty-five years, retired individuals, who own their own home.that is· one of the difficulties while property taxes are, a good mode of collecting taxes. One of the reasons for using that as a tax base,in recent years, is because of the historical equation - the ownership of property to wealth. This is not necessarily so and this is not the situation in this present day.

There are many people in my own district of St, John's East who live in very nice homes, who are pensioners, have very limited income, 11iey are on fixed pensions with a high cost of living_ I feel that even though the burden of education will probably have to be shared on a much more equatable basis,that these individuals who have worked hard for years and are not really participating in the affluent society that we have todar;comparative to what we had,twenty or thirty years ago, that some sonsideration ought to be given to these people for an exemption from taxes.

Let us not have it on the same basis as they do here in the City of St. John's 2906

~y 7, 1971. Tape 542. Page 5. Morning Session. where. if a person is over a certain age and he cannot afford it and he is retired, he is forced to~in effect, submit himself to a means test, go to the local government or the council office and sign an affidavit to this effect. This is not the way in which social welfare is administered in the western society and should not be. So, I would ask the Gover?ment _to. first of all~ inform us of the tax increase ,thac,,.- as it is pro.1ee:ted will be placed on the 1>eo1>le of this Province· as a result of assuming all of the educational burden and at 2907

Hay 7th, 1971 Tape 543(Morning) JM - 1 HR. MARSHALL: the same time. If property taxes is going to be the mode of levying the tax, an assurance of some consideration will be given to those homeowners who live in their own homes and are living on fixed pensions. Another point~to which I wish to revert, Mr. Speaker, is the situation of the Minister of Education with the Newfoundland Teachers' Association. T:his is a matter that has been brought up before.

Let me say at the outset that the remarks that had been made by other speakers on this sioe,with respect to it,and that I am going to make now are by no means meant to be personal remarks. Everybody knows that the Minister of Education is a distinguished educator. Everybody knows his great capabilities and that he is indeed one of the authorities on education in this Province. That is not the point. The criticism is directed to the Minister as Minister of the Crown and his effectiveness and his ability to carry out his functt6n as such and only that and solely that.

I have to say that listening last night to the remarks made with respect to his position as Minister of Education right now, these remarks were further fortified. I was appalled,really, to see his rather cavilling attitude at the end of the night. I do not know whether he was getting tired. Certainly we were all getting tired over here listening to what we had to listen to and maybe that is the excuse.

But here again he bears the responsibility for his statement,and he rose from his chair and he made the statement that no, sir, he is not going to apologize for anything he said or did to the NTA, to the Newfoundland Teachers' :Association. That may well be the way he feels but is there any need to continue to attempt to rub salt on the wounds? This is unworthy, it is very, very unworthy of the Minister.

The fact remains that there is a great smoke screen has been placed over the motion of censure by the NTA against the hon. the Minister,and I use the word "the hon. the Minister" I again underline the fact that I am talking about the Minister in his capacity as Minister of Education. There was an attempt to cover the whole situation with a great smoke screen. The 2908

May 7th, 1971 Tape 543(Morning) JM - 2 MR, MARSHALL: fact of the matter is, the simple fact of the matter is that the Minister was censured by his peers and he was censured by his peers for his hardheaded attitude with respect to the teachers strike and their withdrawal of services. The matter I am not going to go into in any great detail,but the fact of the matter remains as a result of that unfortunate happening.

There were thousands of young children who lost time in school and,heavens knows, we will never know the damage that may or may not have been caused in that situation, and it was a very, _very extremely situation. I can think particularily of one school in my own district, St. Bonaventures, where,as a result of lack of facilities at the school and repairs at the first of the year,they had already lost two or three ~eeks and this was further aggravated by this withdrawal of services.

So 'the ·point is there is no doubt in anybody!s mind that ·this cenaure motion, the NTA was depicted,all that bunch of eighty-two people,but the fact is that this is the same teachers' : association that this Government, and quite rightly, decided to put in ascendency in this Province by giving them certain rights, by fortifying them, by giving them the right of checkoff;' that we heard last night and the NTA has been given recognition by the Govern­ ment in that area that it deserves.

When you have eighty-two of the leading educators in Newfoundland, the leading practitioners of education in Newfoundland,meeting in Clarenville and passing a resolution against the hon. the Minister of Education, that is not exactly to me a laughing matter. It is a very, very serious matter and I say it calls into question very, very sharply the ability and the capability. I am not talking about the ability of the Minister,as we all know he is capable _ per ••e in hicself, but his ability as the result of allowing or being in this situation to continue on in the portfolio as Minister of Education.

It is as pure, plain and simple as that. You have to look at the situation that he has to deal with these people,and he is obviously not in a good situation with them. He talks about the fact and he made the comment and quite rightly so. 2909

May 7th. 1971 Tape 543(Morning) JM - 3 MR. MARSHALL: 1 am not repeating him exactly but the gist of it was,last night, to the effect well these stands · that were taken, this hardheaded stand to which I referred to was a stand of the Government. Certainly it was a stand of the Government but then again it is the Minister of Education who assumes.under our system of Government,the responsibility for actions of 1 the Government with respect to education itself. He is the focal point of educational policy in this Province and it is most necessary indeed that he realize that this is the situation.

I do not see, what do we have, Mr. Chairman, now? We have a situation now in the Government,where we have the Minister of Education who has been censured by the NTA. We have . a situation where the acting Minister of Labour; a few years ago,was in effect censured by the Newfoundland Federation of Labour, That is great 1 That is marvellous. We have another unfortunate i~oation recently,where the late Minister of Municipal Affairs was in effect censured by ~he Mayor of the city of St. John's,and certainly indeed this is not a very enviable situation.

Not nice things to say perhaps, but_ certainly true and certainly very, very serious situations .with these, as I say, three Ministers having been censured by the individuals with whom they are dealing,'with their peers. It will not be long now for sure before the Government itself will also meet its peers,and I have no doubt that it would be censured as well and censured quite strongly. Now indeed, Mr.

Chairman, there is no doubt in my mind,and I have heard what the hon. members here on this side of the House have said,and there is no need of me reiterating the many things that have been said particularily by the great orators that we have from· the St. John's districband from Burin and Fortune Bay on this side. There is one point that I would want to make abundantly clear, abundantly clear; that we have now reached the situation where we have three Ministers of the Crown, three Ministers who have been censured by elements of our society with which they have had to deal with 2910

May 7th, 1971 Tape 543(.Morning) JM - 4 MR. MARSHALL: and that.this is a shocking situation. The Minister of Education will sit there and he will laugh and I know he will get up and he will, if he gets up at all, if he bothers even to answer it,and he will take exactly the same attitude as he took last night.Sut this is not the type of attitude ' that we can have and we can afford to have. c:. '. there is no doubt about it,in my mind,that the Minister of Education, now ~fter hearing,last night I heard the hon.

Leader of the Opposition make this statement,~riginall~ then, _a~ter hearing the gross compliments passed between the hon. Premier and the hon. Minister of Education,! wondered whether the salary of the Minister of Education, there was going to be a motion to double it or triple it or quadruple it. It certainly was, before long,the way they were talking, perhaps it ought to have taken the whole vote in education, But the fact remains, Mr.

Chairman, that this is a very, very serious situation and it is a matter to which the Government has to address itself and the Minister can laugh, he can take the cavalier attitude he wants to, but the fact of the matter remains that he is not in the good books, as it were, 2911

May 7th. 1971 Tape 544 (morning) PK - 1 MR. MARSHALL: with the Teachers Association. I cannot see how he can be effective with them over the brief pe~iod of time they ail have in their respective miniateries. The only people who are going to suffer as a result of this are the children of this Province. I think it is a matter that is regretable it has to be dealt with because,w~en a situation like that occurs, I think, steps .have been taken to move the minister to another portfolio.

But that being the situation, I feel that the vote of censure that was taken by the Newfoundland Teachers Association is a very, very serious one 1 and not one that can be fobbed. off by laughs, jokes and wee little am.ilea. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 01 carry? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, before 01 carries, I would like the minister to indicate what consideration the Government have given to this tax question in view of their policy announced and annunicated last night by the - Premier, ~he policy that the Government have planned to take over all capital cost to the schools?

What taxes are the Government comtemplating that it will impose, when that policy is carried out? MR. ROWE, (F.;.W.) Mr. Chairman, we started this item on Tuesday night, and the hon. the member for St. John's West spoke to it and again yesterday aftemoon, four thirty, ·t think, it was, and all the members of the Opposition spoke until six o'clock and last night the Premier and I spoke and today we have been on this item as well. I have a purpose in- _referring to that because, one of the things tha~ have been brought vp here is the DREE thing.

By the way, the hon. who is not here, the hon. the member for Burin~is wrong when he implies or states or thin~a or infers,from anything that I said or has been said,that there has been a decision taken in respect of matters conceming the title of schools built under DREE. As a matter of fact, I am able to tell him that a meeting is planned for next week with the sub-committee of Cabinet and other educational authorities to discuss all those matters pertaining to title and a host 2912

May 7. 1971 Tape 544 (morning) PK - 2 MR. ROWE, F.W. of other complications involved there. That is number one. I was going to suggest to him that the DREE monies themselves are carried not in the education estimates. but in the estimates for the other department. When we come to that, I think probably we will be in a position, the minister will probably be in a position to elaborate on these matters \ and certainly 1 by the rate we are going, we will not be reaching that department until sometime in September anyway. That department is the last department . in the estimates.

So by that time, we should have had formulated something that we will be able to make public. MR. CROSBIE: Would the minister permit a question on that point .about DREE, Mr. Chairman? Is it not a fact that as a requirement under the DREE Agreements that these schools be free access schools, they cannot be restricted? They must be public schools 1 in a sense , anyone is to have free access? That is a requirement of the Government of Canada: MR.. ROWE, F.W. Mr.

Chairman, I am not going to get into a detailed discussion on the DREE thing right now, because,as I have said, they are carried not in my estimates at all. as a matter of fact .. ; it is in the other estimate and they will be discussed at that time. I think, we will be in a better position anyway, the Minister concerned with DREE will certainly, I would hope 1 be in a better position at that time; than he is right now,to make a statement on that, but he can speak for himself on that. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE, F.W. Well, I have made that statement.

I am not trying to avoid anything, evade anything I am merely stating this thing. That there is a aubGco111111ittee of Cabinet next week,to meet next week.on this,with the educational anthority,to discuss those very points. No decisions have been taken on a number of these things, as yet. Can I make that any cl•arer? No decisions have been made.by the Government of Newfoundland nor the Government of Canada nor the educational authorities on the matt~~ of title to these schools. There is a meeting next week. MR. CROSBIE: But free access. 2913 +

' May 7, 1971 Tape 544 (morning) PK - 3 MR. ROWE , F. W. This is another .aspect of the whole thing and that can be discussed at the proper time too. MR. ROWE, W.N. Could the hon. minister yield for a mmnent, on that question of free accessability to schools, which is contained in the DREE Agreements, we have had many discussions in the past on it. We had a meeting with the Premier. Me called a meetingtas a matter of fact,and several cabinet ministers, officials of the Govertlll\ent and all the top denominational authorities,to discuss that whole matter.

As a result, that took place about sis months· ago, now I guess. As a result we sought clarification.from DREE from Mr. Marchand, the Minister of Regional Economic Expansion, as to what DREE's interpaetation of that clause or phrase of @ccessibility was.A letter came • 1,.".:. back from Mr. Marchand in which he said quite categorically that: -~e was not aware of nor was he interpreting that phrase to be any different from the situation which obtains under Newfoundland's own legislation res~ecting chools. MR. SMALLWOOD: And further he was not going to butt:-in in our MR. ROWE, W.N.

He had no intention whatsoever of butting-in on the administration of chools or the Constitutional set up respecting schools in Newfoundland. So there is no difference between free access~ as stated in the Agreement, and our own requirement for access to schools under the Newfoundland House of Aaaembly Legislation. MR. CROSBIE: Would that mean for example, say the new school on MacDonald Drive could refuse to accept a pupil who was not United Church, Salvation Army or Anglican? I mean that they would have the same rights in connection with - MR. SMALLWOOD: It is left entirely to us.

They are not going to butt-in. MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: No, no. MR. SMAU.WOOD: He is not going to butt· in on a problem. MR. CROSBIE: niat is ~11 right. It is the Federal Government's money, now can that MacDonald school,for example,refuse to accept a pupil wµo is not Anglican, Salvation Army or United Church? MR. ROWE , W.N. If that possibility exisls under our legisl.ation, the . ~ii ... . .. ...

May 7, 1971 Tape 544 (morning) PK - 4 MR. ROWE. W.N. possibilitJ exists under the DREE Agreement, there is no difference between the DREE money which goes to school construction and the ordinary Newfoundland Government money which goes into the construction of schools. The same policy follows, Mr. Marchand is ,no more at liber':! to break the Constitution of Canada , than the Newfoundland Government are. MR. CROSBIE: In other "70rds they could reject. MR. ROWE, F.W. Mr. Chairman, as appropriate item, I will answer the point raised by"my hon. friend from Gander, vii~~ come to it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 01 carry?

Carried. MR. CROSBIE: The minister still has not answered this very important point about the tax implications of the Government's new policy on school construction. The minia~er salary is the whole sphere of education in Newfoundland. Last night the Premier spoke on this new policy of the Government and the question i• what is the other part of that policy, where will the money come from that the Government of Newfoundland will now need? this year. MR. ROWE, F.W. MR. CROSBIE: That ie the trouble we are discussing educational policy. MR. ROWE, F.W. MR. CROSBIE: MR.

SMALLWOOD: It has nothing to do with these aspects. The minister doe• not want to say what taxes - It is not in this year's estimates. MR. ROWE, F.V. It ia not in the estimates. MR.. CROSBIE: Well, the minister agreed - MR • . SMALLWOOD: The policy is not in this year's budget. MRI. CROSBIE: T bat new tax increases would be required. The minister agreed to carry out that policy. MR. ROWE, F.W. Mr. Chairman, this is entirely out of order,for the simple reason it is not in these estimates anyway. It is not in these estimates.

There is nothing in these estimates refem.ng to that policy of eventual one hundted percent ass1DDption of responsibilitY.when . building schools. Nothing whatever, the Premier referred to it incidentally last night and it had been referred to earlier. There is nothing in these estimates. MR. CROSBIE: No, Mr. Chairman, the Premer did not refer to that incidentally. 2915

May 7 • 1971 Tape 544 (morning) PK - 5 KR. CROSBIE: The Premier annunicated last night,on the estimates of the Department of Education 1 the Government's new policy on the construction of schools. He has only annunicated part of that policy. The other part of the policy is how tne new policy is to be paid for. There is an election coming up· in which people are entitled to know the other half of that policy, the consequences of it. Is it to be a real property tax, as the Warren Commission indicates,and so on? Now, Mr. Chairman, it is one o'clock. MR. CHAIRMAN: Will the item carry? MR.

CROSBIE: No, I will continue to talk~that is all. MR. CHAIRMAN: It is now one o'clock.I will leave the Chair until three. 2916

PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number44 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, MAY 7, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

May 7, 1971. Tape 545. The House resumed at 3 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Page 1. Afternoon Session. MR.SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, in my remarks about education I told the Comnittee what was, what is the policy of the Government with regards to the cost of building and equipping schools for the future.

I said that OUT. policy was to have the Government take over the full cost of doing that and to relieve the parents.,as parents, and the schotl boards of that burden, and to spEead the burden over the shoulders of the whole population, as we spread the burden of school fees over the shoulders of the whole population by putting on a one percentage point increase in the ~ocial Security Assesmen~bringing it from six per cent to seven per cent. In the same way, I said we would spread the cost of school construction and equipmen~ over the shoulders of the whole population. Now, we are asked to say how.

We are asked to say what would be the nature of that,spreading of the burden over the whole population, as we did in the case of the school fe~ What would be the particular kind of taxation we would use? Now, I have two things to say about that. In the first place we are not doing it this year. In the present financial year which began a month ago,we are not taking over the financial burden of school construction and the equipping of schools. We are not proposing to do it in the current financial year, the year that ends the thirty-first of March 1972. In that year we are not doing it. We are not proposing it.

We have no intention of doing i~ lt is not in this y~r's estimates. So, we do not have to find that revenue thia year, because we are not going to spend it this year. That policy will not come into effect this financial year. That is the first point. I hope I have made that thoroughly clear. I do not know how I can make it any clearer. The second point is that we hope to do ~t next year. To be ready to do it in the financial year commencing April 1, 1972 and ending March 31, 2917

Mny 7, 1971. Tape 545 Page 2. Afternoon Session. 1973 in the financial year following immediately after the present financial year. It is our hope, our hope, to be able to do it at that time by agreement of the churches, the denominational authorities of the Province, Now, if we do succeed in putting that policy of ours,that philosophy of oun into effect in the next ensuing financial yea~ we will have to pay for it. How? What will be the method of paying for it?

There are several possibilities and I will name them as possibilities.'fhere is no decision. _These are possibilities, Ko decision has been made, In the first place all or part of it could be paid out of general revenue, without the imposition of any new forms of taxation. Without the imposition .,, of any increased rates in ehe existing forms of taxation, rake it out of general revenue. That is one way.

In whole or in part all of it or part of it, out of general revenue, without putting on any new taxes, without increasing the rates of taxes, that is ~e way we could finance it if that proved to be practical,to do it,in whole or in part, out of general revenue. General revenue.,mean!ng all our income·from the Government of Canada, all our income from taxes imposed on our peop~• by this Bouse and all of it throug~ non-tax revenue, The combination of the lot,that is what I call general revenue. Another possibility is to increase the SSA,,c0111D10nly and correctly known as the sales tax.

We did that to take the p~ace of the school fee, the school fee that had been collected by the school boards from the parents of children in school, the school fee that had been collected to pay the cost of operating the schools, of operating them of running them, We might do the same thing,this is a possibility, of increasing the SSA-. by one percentage point to cover the remaining cost of education, This would spread the cost throughout the whole Province. It would not be an ideal way to do it, which is not good taxation. It wquld be a tax on consumption, 2918

Hay 7, 1971. Tape 545. Page 3. Afternoon Session. Well, it could. I am outlining the possible sources of the money that would be needed for the Government to pay the cost of building schools and of constructing and of equipping them. It could be taken out of general revenue without imposing any new taxes or increasing the rates of existing taxes, if therewer~ enough general revenue to do it in whole or in part, Now if there were not, then the general revenue would be increased by putting on another peE~~entage point on the SSA.

That would bring in more money into the general revenue of the Province, Another w~y, another possibility would be to increase the personal income tax imposed by this House. This House,as you will recall,Mr. Chairman, passed the law some years ago imposing a personal income tax on people in Newfoundland.so you have two governments now collecting income tax, personal income tax, the Govermaent of Canada and the Government of New­ foundland1but the Government of canada collects Newfoundland's personal income tax and passes it over to UII.

Another way to get the money would be to increase the Corporation Income Tax, the tax on the income of Corporations. Another way would be to impose a straight education tax, a flat amount per head or per family, whether they had children in school or not, whether they had children or . not, whether their children were too young to go to school or too old. Regardless of any consideration a flat amount per family which would be, in my view,a very wrong and unfair way to do it, because it would fall on the just and the unjust alike unless it were related to income in which caae it should.be an income tax.

It could be done by a combination of any of these. It would depend on how much money the Government wish to spend to construct . · achoola and equip them. This year we are spending $20 million. Bight millions of that comes out of the pockets of the Newfoundland Govern~ aent and $12 million of it from the Government of Canada,for a total of $20 million this year, I have no doubt that throughout the life of 2919

May 7, 1971. Tape 545 Page 4. Afternoon Session. DREE there will be substantial amounts coming into the Province,into this Government,from DREE for the purpose of building and equipping schools •. But. how much, I ma not able to say at the moment.• When the DREE ~greement is brought down by my hon. friend,the Minister of Community and Social Development,we will have a much better idea of how much money we are going to be getting each year1 for some years to come,frOlll DREE, for school purposes, for the purpose of building schools. We do not know at this moment.

So, how much money we will be able to spend on school construction and equipping schools when we take over the full responsibility f~r it, how much we will:.-be able to spend will depend on how much we have, obviously, and how much we have will depend on bow m11ch we get from D~. It will depend on how much our general revenue in.creases year by year. and will depend on whether we augment.the inccae by increasing existing rates of taxes or put on new taxes altogether. It is not certain which of these it will be.

Whether we will be able to finance it out of general revenue or whether we will have to increase general revenue,by increasing the rate of the SSA. or increasing the rate of the personal income tax.or increasing the rate of the corpor­ ation income tax or putting on a special education tax or a combination - of any two or more of these things, lt is not certain which of these it will be. No decision has been taken.

There is only one decision that baa been taken aQCI there is only one thing that is certain and that is - now this is the one certain thing - we are not going to deal with it until we start getting the budget,a year from-now, approximately a year from now. After we have ascertained how much money we will want to spend on achoo! construction and equipping schools, we will then come to determine and make our decisions as to where the mouey will come from,At that point. we will •ke the decision. It bas not yet beed made. '!'here is no need 2920

Hay 7, 1971 Tape no. 546 Page 1 Mr. Smallwood. to make it as yet. So it is not certain which of these sources or which combination of them will give us the money. Here is what is certain. There is only one thing certain in this picture, no property tax to be imposed by this House. If anybody introduces it, we will vote against it. If anybody proposes it, we will oppose it and attack it. We will condemn it. We are against it. We are against it flatly.

No property tax - this House is not going to be asked to put taxes on people's homes, on their gardens, on their animals, on their boats, on their fishing gear, on their schooners, on their p_roperty of any kind. There is iio be no property tax. It is nice to hear - if the hon. gentleman had not been so ardem.an, an~i­ Confederate, he would have known that the whole policy of the Confederate group (That is us. We are the Confederates), our policy was no property tu. The cartoons that I had prepared 9t'elled it out, one after the other, •no property tax.' MR. COLLINS: l'here is already a property tax. MR.

SMALLWOOD: There is not - not iaposed by this Government, not by this Bouaa. Oh: no. If municipalities wish to - oh! come on-; Come on! Stop this dishonesty!. Stop this llyprocisy! I am talking about property taxes imposed by thia Bouse. There 1a none. If municipalities wish to continue doing what they have done,to impose their own local property taxes for their own purely local purpoee, this Bouse, I have no doubt, will continue to approve •••• Mil. COLLINS: Point of Order, Mr. Chairman. Municipalities are not involved in collecting taxes. MR. SMALLWOOD: Thia is not a Point of Order, Mr. Chairman, MR.

COLLINS: It is the school tax authorities. MR. SMALLWOOD: This is no Point of Order. If aunicipalities HR. COLLINS: (Inaudible). Mil. SMALLWOOD: What 1a this character 1rumbling about over there? What is this IR18lbling'l Mil. COLLINS: Municipalities are not involved in school tax collections. 2921

May 7, 1971 Tape no. 546 Page 2 MR. SMALLWOOD: I am well aware of that. I did not say they were. I did not hint that they were. I did not imply that they were. Nothing can be inferred from what I said along that line. I say this and this is obvious, and I am ashamed that there should arise a need to say it. I am ashamed of it. I am ashamed of this House to have to say it. The fact of the matter is that this House of Assembly has never yet imposed property taxes in ~ewfaundland.

What this House has done ia: When town councils want to impose property taxes for their own local purposea,. we have passed laws permitting them to do so. But the initiative comes from them. The wish comes from them. The desire comes from them. The decision comes from them. They do it for their own local purposes, not for schools, not for education, not to build schools, not to equip them, not to pay teachers' salaries. So, there have never been property taxes imposed by the House of Aesembly,at the request of the Government or at the request of the Opposition or at anyone's request.

Never have there been property taxes imposed by this House on the property of Newfomdland. Row the other one is school tases. Where, in an area,. as for example Comer Brook,where people demand that they have the right to put on a school tax, they demand that they have the right to put on, their school tax for their purposes, where that has happened this House has passed laws permitting them to . do 1t. But this House baa never imposed a school tax. The most that this House has done is what it has done in connection with property taxes imposed by town councils. We pemitted them to do it.

You have in Newfoundland today ten or twelve or more areas where the people locally have indicated their desire to put on their own local school tax. Thia House has permitted them to do it. I will never - I will give my own personal undertaking. I am pretty certain that who - ever succeeds me as Liberal Premier of this Province will take exactly the same position, I will never, whD.e I am Pre-mier of this Province, be that short or long, I will never allow legislation to be put to this House by the Government. I would walk out first.

If the Cabinet wanted to do it, they would make their choice between doing it and holding me. They will not hold me as their leader and u Premier of the Province, if they want to do it. I will give them their chnice. 2922

Mav 7. 1971 Tape no. 546 Page 3 Mr. Smallwood. You can have me or you can have property taxation. They will not have both. That is out. I 8111 under pledge-. I am under pledge to the firemen, to the fire brigades of St. John's that never, if I became Premier, never would we force the fire department to be passed over to the City of St. John's. 1 am under pledge. 1 BIii under public pledge.

I am under public pledge that when Confederation caae, if 1 became Premier. there would be no property taxes imposed by the Bouse of Assembly or by the Government on the people of Newfoundland. 1 reiterate that pledge here today publicly. I have no doubt that the Liberal,vho succeeds me, as Premier, will take exactly the same This means that i.that is one source of revenue that is barred to the Government fen, the financing of school construction. We are going to have to get it out of a general increase, if there should be enough. in the revenue.

If there iB not eno\1$th, we can make it enough by increasing some of the existing tues1 such as the sales tax, the personal incoae tax, the corporation income tu: or a combination of them. Any of these 1a possible. The one thin1t that iR not going to happen is any kind or type or description of property tax.- none. llow let me make one qualification here.

It could well happen, and I am inclined to think that it will happen that in our great forest programme, the development of our forests sou to make them yield more fibre, more wood for the paper mills, so that the paper mills can grow, in that or in doing that we will probably put on a tax on forests. Now that would be a property tu:. Foresta owned by the great paper coapanies - by the paper companies, I think that takes in just about all the forests of the Province.

That would mean Price, BOlfatera, Shaheen, Doyle - I say Shaheen and Doyle because they are the short names for the Shaheen Organization and the Canadian Javelin Organization. Doyle is Ollly twenty-three per cent.of Canadian Javelin - the Javelin Empire. I do not know.how much Shaheen is of the Shaheen Empire. But these four are the paper mill people. 1 feel pretty confident that,as part of paying what th~ Newf~undl