British Columbia Hansard — Tuesday, April 8, 2003

H0408pm-04

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

4th Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Tuesday, April 8, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Volume 14, Number 4 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 4TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council................................................................................. .........................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations.............................................................................. ..................... Hon.

Greg Halsey-Brandt Deputy Premier and Minister of Education ....................................................................................... ..................................Hon. Christy Clark Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................. ...........................................Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries.................................................................................... ..............................Hon.

John van Dongen Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations.............................................................. .................... Hon. Geoff Plant Minister of Children and Family Development.................................................................................... ..............................Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of State for Early Childhood Development.............................................................................. .................................Hon.

Linda Reid Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services......................................................................... .................. Hon. George Abbott Minister of State for Community Charter........................................................................................ .................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Minister of State for Women's Equality ......................................................................................... .................................... Hon.

Lynn Stephens Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of State for Deregulation ............................................................................................. ............................................ Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Energy and Mines................................................................................................... ....................................... Hon.

Richard Neufeld Minister of Finance ............................................................................................................ ....................................................... Hon. Gary Collins Minister of Forests ............................................................................................................ .................................................. Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Health Planning .................................................................................................... ............................................ Hon.

Sindi Hawkins Minister of Health Services.................................................................................................... ................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health ............................................................................................ ...................................Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care ............................................................................. Hon.

Katherine Whittred Minister of Human Resources.................................................................................................... ............................................Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Management Services................................................................................................ .........................................Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Provincial Revenue................................................................................................. ................................................Hon.

Bill Barisoff Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour...................................................................................... .............................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Sustainable Resource Management.................................................................................... ..................................Hon.

Stan Hagen Minister of Transportation..................................................................................................... .................................................... Hon. Judith Reid Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection..................................................................................... ....................................Hon. Joyce Murray LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker................................................................................................................. ..............................................................

John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition ....................................................................................................... ...........................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ........................................................................................... .............................................. Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .............................................................................................. .........................................E.

George MacMinn Clerk Assistant ................................................................................................................ ................................................................... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .................................................................................................. ........................................................ Ian D. Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees........................................................................................ ............................................Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant/Committee Clerk................................................................................................ ............................................ Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms ............................................................................................................... .........................................................A.A. Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................... ........................................

Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian.......................................................................................................... ............................................................. Joan A. Barton Legislative Comptroller ........................................................................................................ .................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca/hansard In addition to printed transcripts, Hansard Services publishes transcripts on the Internet and broadcasts Chamber debates on television.

Party Standings: Liberal 75; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 2. ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ....................................................................... Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L) .............................................................Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)............................................. Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Pat (L).........................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L).................................................................................

North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................... East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ................................................................. Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).................................................................................. Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).........................................Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L)......................................................................Victoria–Beacon H ill Brenzinger, Elayne (L) ...............................................................

Surrey-Whalley Brice, Susan (L) ............................................................................Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L)................................................ Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Hon. Gulzar S. (L) ..........................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Ida (L)................................................................ Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Tom (L) .............................................................

Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ........................................................................... Yale-L illooet Clark, Hon. Christy (L) ..................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ............................................................................. Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ........................................ Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L) .............................................. Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon.

Gary (L).........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L)....................................... Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................... Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................... Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Hon. Greg (L) ..................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) .....................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Roger (L)......................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L) ............................................................ Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L).......................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon. Gordon (L) ........................................................

Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) ...................................................................................Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)...................................................... North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L)............................................................ Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L).............................................................. Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L).................................................

Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...............................Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).......................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L) .......................................................................... Ch illiwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ...........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) ...................................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ..........................................................

Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) .............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ...................................................................................Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L) ........................................................... New Westminster Nebbeling, Hon. Ted (L) .......................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (Ind. L)..................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon.

Richard (L)...................................................... Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L)...................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L) ...............................................................Burnaby-W illingdon Orr, Sheila (L) ...........................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)....................................................................... Ch illiwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ......................................................... Richmond-Steveston Reid, Hon.

Judith (L)............................................................Nanaimo-Parksv ille Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L) ................................................................ Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)..........................................................................Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).....................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L)..............................................West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Hon.

Lynn (L) ........................................................................ Langley Stewart, Ken (L)...................................................... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L) ...................................................... Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L) ................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L)....................................................... West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon.

Rick (L) ..........................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, Hon. John (L) ................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L).................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).........................................................Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Hon.

Katherine (L) ...................................North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)........................................................................... Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................... Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman ..............................................Hon.

Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum.......................................................................G illian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ..............................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North..............................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon......................................................................

John Nuraney Burquitlam ........................................................................................ Harry Bloy Cariboo North ..................................................................................John Wilson Cariboo South .................................................................................... Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ............................................................................. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas .................................................................................

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .......................................................................... Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville .............................................................Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Delta North.......................................................................................... Reni Masi Delta South................................................................................

Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .................................................................................. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin...................................................................Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ....................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ........................................................Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country...............................................................

John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ................................................................ Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley ............................................................................... Hon. Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca .....................................................................Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................... Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows .............................................................Ken Stewart Nanaimo..........................................................................................

Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville ...................................................................Hon. Judith Reid Nelson-Creston.......................................................................Blair F. Suffredine New Westminster ..................................................................Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast ........................................................................................Bill Belsey North Island........................................................................................Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale.......................................... Hon.

Katherine Wh ittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head .......................................................................Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon .................................................................... Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside.................................................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North .............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South .......................................................................

Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley ....................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain.................................................... Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood......................................................... Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast.......................................................... Harold Long Prince George North................................................................................Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................Hon.

Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre......................................................... Hon. Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East .......................................................................... Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ................................................................ Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands ............................................... Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South...................................................................................

Susan Brice Shuswap .............................................................................. Hon. George Abbott Skeena.............................................................................................Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ................................................................. Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers .................................................................. Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ............................................................................... Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge................................................. Hon.

Gulzar S. Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .......................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ...................................................................... Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock ...............................................................Hon. Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview............................................................... Hon.

Gary Co llins Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................................Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings .......................................................................Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington...................................................................Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway..........................................................................Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara....................................................................Val J.

Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena............................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill.............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.................................................................................. Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary.................................................... Hon.

Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ..............................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ................................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .................................................................................. Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Tuesday, April 8, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members....................................................................................................... ............................................... 6123 Introduction and First Reading of Bills ........................................................................................ ......................................... 6123 Court Jurisdiction and Proceedings Transfer Act (Bill 31) Hon. G. Plant Enforcement of Canadian Judgments and Decrees Act (Bill 32) Hon. G.

Plant Statements (Standing Order 25B).............................................................................................................................. .............. 6124 South Fraser perimeter road and 176th Street connector D. Hayer Terrace R. Harris Smithers ski race D. MacKay Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 6125 Competition minister's fishing trips with Alcan executives J. MacPhail Hon. R. Thorpe Groundwater protection on Gabriola Island M.

Hunter Hon. J. Murray Mountain pine beetle control T. Bhullar Hon. M. de Jong B.C. credit rating R. Sultan Hon. G. Collins Coal-fired power plant in Elk Valley B. Bennett Hon. R. Neufeld Comments by Solicitor General J. MacPhail Hon. R. Coleman Compensation for impact of U.S. softwood lumber duty B. Belsey Hon. G. Halsey-Brandt Concession stands at highway rest areas D. Chutter Hon. J. Reid Petitions ...................................................................................................................... ............................................................... 6128 K.

Krueger Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 6128 Estimates: Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries (continued) M. Hunter Hon. J. van Dongen J. MacPhail Estimates: Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management (continued) J. Les Hon. S. Hagen J. Wilson

6123 TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 The House met at 2:04 p.m. Introductions by Members J. Nuraney: I have great pleasure in introducing to the House 36 members of my community from Bur- naby. I would like the House to please make them wel- come. Hon. G. Campbell: I am very pleased today to say that we are joined by Nicholas James Campbell, back from his time in Copenhagen, back from his time at the London Daily Telegraph a n d b a c k i n t h e a r m s o f h i s family, in the province of British Columbia, where he has nothing but a spectacular future. Could we make him welcome. [1405] Hon. R.

Coleman: I have three people to introduce to the House today, two young British Columbians — terrific and talented young people — Kelly Stron- githarm and Desiree Dupuis, along with their friend Bob Hefferman from England. Would the House please make them welcome. R. Sultan: It gives me great pleasure to introduce two prominent West Vancouverites to the House this afternoon. Deborah Spicer is with Angell Hasman and Associates, a very successful realtor on the North Shore. I can give you their cards later. Mr.

Peter Kains is a friend, a prominent West Vancouver business per- son and chairman of my fundraising committee. T. Christensen: It's my privilege to introduce to the House today one individual from my constituency, Joe Pearson, and an individual from Kelowna, Janice Myers. The two of them are down this week on behalf of the Okanagan Mainline Real Estate Board and here for meetings with the B.C. Real Estate Association. Both of them do good work in their communities. Would the House please make them welcome here. Hon. B.

Barisoff: Today I have the pleasure of in- troducing a constituent of mine, Ann Hayes, from South Country Realty. If you have the opportunity to bid on a good Rotary dinner, she does a fabulous job of cooking it. Would the House please make her welcome. P. Bell: I'm very pleased to introduce a realtor and an executive from the Prince George area, Dorothy Friesen and Daryl Muchowski. I understand they were recently in Ottawa witnessing question period, and they are looking forward to today's expedition, so I would ask that the House please make them very wel- come. Hon. S.

Santori: This afternoon in the gallery I'm pleased to have a constituent of mine and a good friend from the beautiful city of Rossland, Ardis Urquhart, who is also the president of the West Kootenay Real Estate Board. I would ask that the House make her welcome. R. Harris: I also have the pleasure of introducing a couple of real estate people from the northwest. One of them is one of my constituents, Lisa Godlinski from Terrace, and Ron Lapadat is from Smithers. Would the House please make them feel welcome. J. MacPhail: I'm pleased to welcome to the chamber today two students from the University of Victoria.

Kate Waters is a law student, and Melanie Friesen is a student in the school of public administration. Would the House please make them welcome. B. Suffredine: It's a pleasure today to have a con- stituent who has come all the way from Creston to at- tend in the gallery. Creston is a community in the heartlands, where they have the best of four seasons recreation, outstanding agricultural land and the home of the Kokanee brewery company that distributes beer all across the country. In the gallery is Scott Veitch, a realtor representing the Kootenays with the B.C. Real Estate Association.

It's great to have him come here and visit. Would the House please welcome him. Introduction and First Reading of Bills COURT JURISDICTION AND PROCEEDINGS TRANSFER ACT Hon. G. Plant presented a message from Her Hon- our the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Court Jurisdiction and Proceedings Transfer Act. Hon. G. Plant: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. [1410] Hon. G. Plant: I'm pleased to introduce the Court Jurisdiction and Proceedings Transfer Act.

This statute is based on a uniform act prepared by the Uniform Law Conference of Canada at the request of the pro- vincial and territorial ministers responsible for justice. The purpose of the bill and the uniform act upon which it is based is to establish clear and harmonized statu- tory rules to accord with the principle enunciated by the Supreme Court of Canada respecting the basis upon which a court in a province or territory may properly hear and determine a matter upon which its decision is sought.

In two decisions, Morguard Investments and Am- can Castings Ltd., the Supreme Court of Canada stated that the basis upon which a court may properly take jurisdiction is where there is what is described as a real

6124 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 and substantial connection between the province or territory and the parties or the subject matter of the proceedings. Another important element of this bill is to provide a statutory means by which the superior courts of Can- ada may transfer litigation from one province or terri- tory to another, in particular to a forum that may be m o r e a p p r o p r i a t e . I n s o m e c a s e s , i t m a y b e a f o r u m outside Canada if the receiving court accepts such a transfer.

This bill is an important part of our continuing com- mitment to law reform and the modernization of law and procedure in a way that I believe is consistent with access to justice and the building of a strong economy. I move that the bill — with all of that said about it and more that will be said about it in due course — be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 31 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

ENFORCEMENT OF CANADIAN JUDGMENTS AND DECREES ACT Hon. G. Plant presented a message from Her Hon- our the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Enforce- ment of Canadian Judgments and Decrees Act. Hon. G. Plant: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. G. Plant: I'm pleased to introduce the En- forcement of Canadian Judgments and Decrees Act. This act is also based upon a uniform act prepared by the Uniform Law Conference of Canada to address changes in the law respecting the enforcement of Ca- nadian judgments.

The purpose of this bill and the uniform act on which it is based is to provide a harmonized statute to accord with the principles respecting the enforcement of judgments amongst Canadian provinces and territo- ries, enunciated by the Supreme Court of Canada in its decision in Morguard Investments Ltd. and De Savoye. In that decision, the Supreme Court of Canada stated that the principles of the Canadian constitution require that the courts of each province and territory of Canada should give full faith and credit to the judgments of courts in other provinces and territories of Canada.

This act will provide that a judgment or an order of the court in another province or territory may be regis- tered in the B.C. Supreme Court by filing a certified true copy of the judgment and that a judgment so reg- istered may then be enforced in British Columbia as if it were a judgment of the British Columbia Supreme Court.

The reports upon which this act is based were pre- pared by the Law Reform Commission of British Co- lumbia and the British Columbia Law Institute, and I want to commend the members of both of those or- ganizations for their hard work over the years in put- ting together a statute that I believe represents a model for good practice in reciprocal enforcement of judg- ments. As is the case with the bill I earlier introduced, this act is also consistent with government's commit- ment to law reform and to the modernization of the administration of justice.

I move that this bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 32 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) SOUTH FRASER PERIMETER ROAD AND 176TH STREET CONNECTOR D. Hayer: I'm happy that the location of the new crossing of the Fraser River between Pitt Meadows, Maple Ridge and the south side of the Fraser River has been finalized. I'm also pleased to see that TransLink is planning a new route connecting the south end of the bridge with the 176th Street interchange and the planned South Fraser perimeter road with input from my community. [1415] As you know, I have been involved in many meet- ings with the residents of the Fleetwood, Fraser Height and Port Kells areas of my riding of Surrey-Tynehead.

They are concerned about the impact the new perime- ter road and connector routes may have on their com- munity. From the discussions and input I have had from the residents and from the plans for the new routes, I think we can achieve a win-win route, one that can minimize community impact and provide a com- mercial truck route along the Fraser River from the 176th Street connectors to the industrial areas of Sur- rey and Delta.

The construction of the South Fraser perimeter road will take the heavy trucks away from the residential area and improve safety and traffic flow, which will save commuters and businesses time and money. With upcoming bridge construction and the south side con- nector routes from the bridge to 176th, we will see a substantial upgrading of the 176th Street interchanges, and this will be a great benefit to both my riding resi- dents and commercial traffic.

I will, however, be closely monitoring the progress of this construction to ensure that all work on the inter- changes, the connector routes and the South Fraser perimeter road have the least impact on the neighbour- ing residential areas and that all reports we receive from my constituents are given careful consideration in the final planning of those routes.

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6125 TERRACE R. Harris: A couple of weeks ago I stood in the House and invited the members of this Legislature and the people of the province to come to Kitimat to help celebrate that community's fiftieth anniversary. I rise today because in the northwest this year we're celebrat- ing another special occasion, the seventy-fifth birthday of the city of Terrace. The town had its founding meeting in 1928. The inaugural party was attended by the male residents of the community. Special guests included Mr.

Curzon, the then mayor of Prince Rupert, as well as dignitaries from Usk and Smithers. After a series of speeches to officially recognize the occasion, the evening pro- gressed with each additional speaker trying to outdo his neighbour, and by the time the last one spoke, they had convinced themselves that the new city of Terrace was the greatest town in the north. Well, Mr. Speaker, Terrace is a great town. It has grown to become the hub of the northwest and is in- deed a great place to live.

It is, in fact, the home of the largest spring salmon ever caught, and I'm sure that comes as much of a disappointment to the members from the North Coast and Vancouver Island North. Throughout the year Terrace is going to be filled with celebrations and events, and unlike 1928, we've come a long way. I'm really pleased to say that we're inviting everyone, even the women, to participate this time around. When the holiday season comes, I encourage every- one to take the circle tour of your province. A trip up the Inside Passage is one that few will forget.

Spend a cou- ple of days in the northwest seeing the beauty of the region and enjoying the events. Riverboat Days on the long weekend in August are an especially interesting time as the community celebrates its history with the Skeena River. Terrace is bordered by Kitsumkalum on the west and Kitselas on the east, and while there, tour- ists will have a unique opportunity to experience the histories and cultures of those communities.

On that note, I'd like to extend Terrace's invitation to the members of the House and to the people of B.C. to come to Terrace this summer — in fact, to the whole northwest — and experience a quality of life that's the envy of many. SMITHERS SKI RACE D. MacKay: The nineteenth annual Schuss Boomer Downhill ski race was held in Smithers on Hudson Bay Mountain this past weekend, April 6 and 7. The race itself was held on Twinkletoes. The run itself is about 2,000 metres in length. Eighty-seven competitors took

part in the race, ranging in age from 64 down to six. At this time I'd like to thank the many volunteers, includ- ing Bob Rozell and Don and Bev Davidson, who helped make this race possible. The teams were made up of three racers, and some of the team names are rather unique — to name a few of them: Three Blonde Mice, Broken Boners, Till the Cows Come Home. Three South African doctors work- ing in Smithers had a team entered, and they called themselves the Hospital Horrors.

Prizes were given out for costumes as well as the total team times, which had to be estimated at the end of the completion of their first training run. Ski racers were clocked by radar at the finish line, and prizes were awarded for the fastest time. This year the course was somewhat slow, and the top speed was 105 kilometres an hour. The Smithers Ski Club would like me to enter a team in this event next year, so I am looking for two volunteers from caucus to join me in a team effort next year. We'll discuss the team name at another time. [1420] Mr. Speaker: That concludes member statements.

Oral Questions COMPETITION MINISTER'S FISHING TRIPS WITH ALCAN EXECUTIVES J. MacPhail: In 1999 the now Deputy Premier ac- cused the former Minister of Economic Development of a conflict of interest. I'm sure that she and others in the House are familiar with the commissioner's ruling. The opposition has learned that last summer while meeting with Alcan, the Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise enjoyed two days of guided sport fishing with senior Alcan executives including Mr. Louis De- lage, an Alcan vice-president.

The Minister of Competition, Science and Enter- prise is the government's lead man on the aluminum file, so my question to the Minister of Competition is this: what official business was he on, and who paid for the fishing trips he took with Alcan executives last Au- gust 16 and 17? Hon. R. Thorpe: Last year I did a 19-day trip around British Columbia — started in Whistler, worked my way up Vancouver Island, across Highway 16 and ended up in Fort St. John. The business aspects o f m y t ri p , t he g o v e rnm e nt p ai d f o r . T he p e rs o na l as - pects of my trip, I paid for.

And for the member's in- formation, I do not fish. J. MacPhail: I remind the minister that

section 7(1) of the Members' Conflict of Interest Act says that the minister must not accept a fee, gift or personal benefit that is connected directly or indirectly to the perform- ance of his or her duties of office. When the Deputy Premier accused the former Min- ister of Economic Development of a conflict, she said he was ethically challenged and insisted that he had an obligation to the House to come clean. The now Attor- ney General said that minister had broken a trust and demanded he be fired. So, again to the Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise: will he table the payment for the two trips he took — I'm sorry; I'll get the dates exactly — in mid-August? Will he table it,

6126 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 and will he reveal what business was conducted with those Alcan executives while on those trips? Hon. R. Thorpe: I take my responsibility as a mem- ber of this House very, very seriously. I make my fil- ings on time. That is public record. I put in the ex- penses that are applicable to the government duty. Personal expenses I cover myself. I follow the rules of this House. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplementary question. J. MacPhail: Well, then on the fishing trips he took with Alcan executives on a boat chartered by Alcan….

Perhaps he can produce the receipts of the trips on August 16 and 17. I remind the minister that in the conflict case brought forward by the now Deputy Premier, the con- flict commissioner cleared the member because the alleged gift was incidental to carrying out his ministe- rial responsibility. The last time I checked, Alcan is in the aluminum business, not sport fishing. It was an Alcan charter that the minister was on.

Unless Alcan was asking the minister to test some new aluminum fishing rod or the latest beer can technology, it's hard to see how taking a fishing trip on an Alcan-chartered boat meets the conflict commissioner's test. Maybe the minister can produce the receipts. I doubt it, but if he can, that's the end of it. The minister is the Premier's lead man on aluminum, not sport fish- i n g . H e ' s i n a p o s i t i o n t o m a k e d e c i s i o n s t h a t d i r e c t l y affect Alcan's operations. He took at least two guided fishing trips with senior Alcan executives.

If Alcan in any way covered the costs of those trips, does the min- ister agree that that puts him in a conflict of interest? Hon. R. Thorpe: I k no w t he ru l e s o f t hi s H o u s e . I make my filings according to the rules of this House. J. MacPhail: No, it's not the filing. Did you pay the receipts? Did you pay the cost of the trip? Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please. GROUNDWATER PROTECTION ON GABRIOLA ISLAND M.

Hunter: Last week I had the opportunity to ask the Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection about her visit to the third World Water Forum in Japan, and I now want to ask her a subsidiary question to focus on a local water issue in my constituency. [1425] Over 90 percent of the residents of Gabriola Island get their water from private wells. Some weeks ago I had an opportunity to discuss the issue of groundwater pro- tection with island residents and heard a number of con- cerns on this subject as well as some suggestions.

Can the Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection tell me what progress has been made on this issue of groundwa- ter protection, and what her ministry is doing with re- spect to Gabriola Island and other areas of B.C.? Hon. J. Murray: The ministry staff are working with a groundwater advisory board. It's made up of professionals and scientists. That board is assisting government in developing regulations for the protec- tion of groundwater. It will be the first time that groundwater is protected by law in British Columbia, so I think this is a very important initiative.

The panel is undertaking consultations now. I'm hoping for a conclusion over the coming months. The Gabriola Island concerns about the safety of their drinking water are ones that I'm concerned about. I know the member has called meetings that my staff have been at — in fact, the meeting that I attended with the group. I appreciate the member's concern. Clean and safe drinking water is a top priority for this gov- ernment, and we're acting on it. MOUNTAIN PINE BEETLE CONTROL T. Bhullar: M y q u e s t i o n i s t o t h e M i n i s t e r o f F o r - ests.

Could he please inform the House of the steps that have been taken to control the pine beetle infestation and whether there's been any success with the attempts to control this pest? Hon. M. de Jong: Thanks to the member. He refers to, obviously, a crucial situation that exists over much of the province. We have, as the member knows, launched a specific action plan that has seen the ap- pointment of a beetle management coordinator — the beetle boss, Bob Clark. We have established specific emergency management zones.

We have allowed for the transference of cut within timber supply areas, and we have allowed some additional streamlining to allow for sanitation logging. The bottom line is that the infestation continues to spread. Over 100 million cubic metres of fibre is impacted. I think it's fair to say we have slowed the spread of the infestation, but it continues to grow. It continues to put a lot of people and a lot of communities at risk. B.C. CREDIT RATING R. Sultan: M y q u e s t i o n i s t o t h e M i n i s t e r o f F i - nance.

Around this time last year I asked how the bond rating agencies had reacted to our fiscal plan. This is important. The agencies indicate to investors whether B.C. has its fiscal act together. Now that they've had a chance to review our recent budget and fiscal plan, to the Minister of Finance: what's their verdict? Hon. G. Collins: The member may know that follow- ing each budget each year, the credit rating agencies come to Victoria and spend a full day each with us being briefed on the plan, on the progress we've made to date. We did that this year as well. I want to thank particularly the two

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6127 Ministers of Health, who provided additional briefings for the rating agencies as they did last year. I'm pleased to say that over the last week or so, we've had a confirmation from all three credit rating agencies — Standard and Poor's, Moody's and Domin- ion Bond Rating Service — of a double-A credit with a stable outlook. We, however, have to continue to work hard to hit our targets.

There's good comment on the good progress we've made so far in our three-year plan but also a very clear message that we have to continue to stay the course and keep our spending under con- trol. We intend to do that. We want to make sure that our credit ratings go up, not down, as they did under the previous government. We're going to continue to work hard to make sure we get this job done. COAL-FIRED POWER PLANT IN ELK VALLEY B. Bennett: My question is to the Minister of Energy and Mines. In the East Kootenay there's a lot of coalmin- ing, as you all know. I've talked about it in this House.

The coalmining families that depend on the coal industry in the Elk Valley and all the businesses that also depend on the coal industry in the Elk Valley have had a question for over a decade. That question is: when will the provincial government allow a coal-fired power plant to be constructed in the Elk Valley, bring- ing hundreds of jobs and an expenditure of between $250 million to $300 million? It's my understanding that this government has made some changes to allow that type of project to proceed. I'm asking the minister today if he could tell this House what those changes are. [1430] Hon. R.

Neufeld: Yes, there's great economy that could take place in the East Kootenays above and be- yond what they do now with coalmining. We intro- duced an energy plan that is inclusive of coal. It's in- clusive of transmission access for people who want to build plants in British Columbia. It is inclusive of inde- pendent power producers to generate our incremental electricity needs moving forward. That's in the energy plan. We've got standards for coal for the first time in British Columbia that are competitive with our neighbouring jurisdictions, which were developed by Water, Land and Air Protection.

We have wide regional support, and it's now up to the private sector. We've done our job. The private sec- tor now will review all that and decide in those pa- rameters if they can actually put a plan together that will make economic sense for the people of the Kootenays and the province. COMMENTS BY SOLICITOR GENERAL J. MacPhail: Yesterday the Solicitor General made comments that were deeply offensive to the first na- tions. Would he like to apologize to the House and, through us, to our constituents? Hon. R.

Coleman: I was asked some questions in a scrum yesterday, and I gave an example which proved to be unfortunate for some people in the aboriginal community. I apologized to them this morning, and I apologize to the House today. COMPENSATION FOR IMPACT OF U.S. SOFTWOOD LUMBER DUTY B. Belsey: My question is to the Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations. A recent announcement by the federal Industry minister to provide funding for those communities that have been hard hit by the soft- wood lumber dispute was welcomed throughout my riding.

The announcement indicated that there would be somewhere around $110 million spent in communi- ties hurt by the softwood lumber dispute. To date, it has become confusing as to whether this money is still available and how a community applies for it. Can the Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations tell the Prince Rupert community adjustment advisory working group if this funding is still available, and what course is necessary to make application? Hon. G. Halsey-Brandt: Yes, indeed, the money is still available. It's $110 million that's going to be spread across Canada.

We're expecting at least half of it to be spent in British Columbia. As the member is aware, there's been an advisory group set up under the mayor of Prince George, Colin Kinsley, to oversee this program under the auspices of Western Economic Diversification. We're expecting their call for proposals over the next couple of weeks. I would remind all members that this is based on calls for proposals from groups within your communities, so it's incumbent upon them to apply for this funding. The Community Futures development corporations around the province will be handling those.

I would suggest, if you or any organizations in your commu- nity have any questions about accessing those funds, getting in touch with those corporations. CONCESSION STANDS AT HIGHWAY REST AREAS D. Chutter: My question is to the Minister of Trans- portation. Each year hundreds of thousands of travellers come through my riding of Yale-Lillooet, and I under- stand that concession stands may appear at rest stops on the highway starting next month.

Some people in my constituency are worried that services at these rest stops will discourage motorists from visiting some of their communities and will possibly impact local businesses. Can the Minister of Transportation tell us why the gov- ernment is moving in this direction, and has she antici- pated the effect this may have on local business? Hon. J. Reid: British Columbia is a huge and very diverse province. We had some concerns with rest ar- eas across the province. We had vandalism at some rest areas. There's the cost of keeping up rest areas. Some-

6128 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 times they wouldn't be in good condition when tourists came. I received a number of complaints about condi- tions, even though they are regularly kept up. We also have problems sometimes with seasonal vendors locat- ing on the sides of roads in areas that aren't safe for motorists to stop. [1435] When we looked at the opportunities, we looked at what neighbouring jurisdictions do with their rest ar- eas, and we realized there was an opportunity to im- prove service to people travelling our highways.

Cer- tainly, in some areas where there are very long dis- tances between communities, it would be a safety issue where people could stop and perhaps get refreshed — a cup of coffee. We looked at how they were done. In some areas service clubs get involved; in other areas it's seasonal vendors. We are starting a program this year that would allow activity at rest areas. We are working with com- munities. We are going to be sensitive to the needs and wishes of communities.

But again, there are many dif- ferent situations, so we're going to look at each rest stop in its situation and look at proposals that come forward and make those decisions. [End of question period.] Petitions K. Krueger: I rise to table four petitions: one with regard to the cosmetology industry, one from the Bar- riere and District Seniors' Society concerning seniors issues, one from a group of constituents concerning B.C. Hydro and another from a group of constituents concerning the Coquihalla. Orders of the Day Hon. G.

Collins: I call Committee of Supply, and for the information of the members, we'll be debating the estimates of the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries. Committee of Supply The House in Committee of Supply B; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 2:39 p.m. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FOOD AND FISHERIES (continued) On vote 10: ministry operations, $49,133,000 (con- tinued). [1440] M.

Hunter: This morning I sat and listened to the Leader of the Opposition in this debate making acerbic and accusatory remarks about the minister, and I want to promise the minister that my questions are going to be a lot more friendly. I'm delighted to see him back around the executive council table. There hasn't been a minister responsible for fisheries, at least in this prov- ince, in my time here that has had more respect than the member for Abbotsford-Clayburn. As I say, I'm delighted he's back. I wanted to start my questioning by talking about food safety and food quality.

I've made some remarks and asked some questions about this before, but I see that we are scheduled to spend another $6.189 million on this activity in the new fiscal year. I am again curi- ous about what progress we are making with the Ca- nadian Food Inspection Agency. I'm mindful that as long ago as 1986, there was a federal-provincial-territorial agreement on integration of food inspection, including seafood. I know that 17 years later, we are still inspecting British Columbia seafood producers who don't export beyond our boundaries.

I'm wondering if the minister can report any progress on getting this file into the hands of the federal government, where the competence is, where Health Canada resides and where they have a program that I think is a lot more beneficial to consumers across Canada as well as in B.C. I'd be interested in how we're making out on that 17-year-old commitment to harmo- nize. Hon. J. van Dongen: In response to the member for Nanaimo, certainly the issue he talks about — trying to harmonize food inspection standards and processes with the federal government — is a critical objective.

It's something that has gone on a long time, as he said. In our food safety branch we've tried to distinguish between food safety issues and food qual- ity issues, first of all. The responsibility of the gov- ernment to protect the public through its food safety programs is critical. Referring specifically to the issue of the relationship with the CFIA, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, and attempting to harmonize standards, we are ac- tively working on a memorandum of understanding with the CFIA. Provincially, that process also involves our Ministry of Health Services.

As he says, I'm hope- ful that we can make better progress in the next little while than we have made in the last 17 years. It is an important issue, and I think it's good that he helps keep it in front of everybody and tries to help move it along. M. Hunter: I want to focus on seafood because I don't know, in terms of agriculture, what we are ex- pending. I know that a few years ago we had three provincial officials involved in seafood product inspec- tions. Is that still the case today? [1445] Hon. J. van Dongen: As the member says, we have inspectors within our ministry. We have six inspectors.

We're currently in the process of adding two inspec- tors. About 10 percent of their time is involved in food safety issues and processing plants.

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6129 J. MacPhail: I know that the members will have a chance to ask their questions. I will be completing be- fore the end of today. I left the minister exploring the minister's responsi- bilities with enforcement and compliance. I'm not go- ing to spend much more time on this issue, the investi- gation, because I have many other issues I want to ask the minister about. There was one part of the letter from Stolt Sea Farm to the Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection that I want to pay close attention to.

A quote from the letter says: "Examining the potential for expansion of the aquaculture industry is considered a key ministerial priority, and sending conflicting messages to industry and, further, potentially affecting public perceptions relative to authorities and efficiencies will only have negative impacts." I'm just wondering whether the minister could say what negative impacts on public perception he is wor- ried about. Hon.

J. van Dongen: I can report to the member that we have always been very clear with the industry that any expansion — if there were any expansion — and even the existing operations were subject to good environmental standards in terms of performance, which would be monitored, inspected and enforced by our government. All of the activity is subject to that, and I want to assure the member of that. J. MacPhail: I wonder whether the minister thinks it's any worse or any better now, after this fiasco and the poor handling of the entire file. Hon.

J. van Dongen: I n f ac t , i f we l o o k at t he hi s - tory of the aquaculture file and if we start out during the period of time under the previous government, we're all aware of the moratorium which was put in place in 1995 and the comprehensive study that was done by the salmon aquaculture review. The previous government put in place 34 new salmon farms before this salmon aquaculture review was done. I think that's a very significant piece of history. The salmon aquaculture review made 49 recom- mendations. The previous government had not done anything with most of those.

We have gone through systematically and put in a new fish escape regulation, put in a new waste management regulation, reviewed all the fish health requirements, put in place an en- hanced compliance and enforcement provision, and put in an MOU between the two ministries so that we have a very comprehensive and effective enforcement process. That's what we've done before we ever talked about the moratorium. In fact, even though we made a decision on Sep- tember 12, 2002, there have been no new licences is- sued.

Part of the requirements that have been put in place is very comprehensive application requirements for a new site or a relocation. We made it a stipulation that any relocations that needed to be done had to be done first. There are sites that were put in place by the previous government where there are environmental issues. They were not relocated, and we are prioritizing those as part of our comprehensive process for estab- lishing and promoting better environmental perform- ance in the industry. J. MacPhail: Gee, I don't know where to start on that.

It's always interesting that when this government gets into a corner and gets in trouble, they go: "We're no worse than the previous government. We're no worse." Gee, is that ever wonderful. Is that what this minister campaigned on? In fact, they are worse than the previous government. The expansion by 34 licences. I love the way this government stands up and repeats it. They've been given their little script, and they were told to repeat that, regardless of the facts.

If indeed the government of the day had not carried on with the groundwork that the then Social Credit government had put in p l a c e , m a n y o f w h o m a r e n o w s i t t i n g i n t h i s g o v e r n - ment, that Liberal opposition would have said: "Anti- business. You have no basis for doing this." So we did. We actually investigated. We put a moratorium on to err on the side of caution. [1450] The minister is dead wrong on the recommenda- tions around the salmon aquaculture review, and I wish he'd stop being wrong — absolutely stop.

The difference between this government and the previous government is that the previous government wasn't beholden to anybody through financial contri- butions from one side of the industry. We actually made a decision based on science. Interjections. J. MacPhail: Oh, I wonder. What's everybody so upset about? Nervous about some events or some- thing? Kind of antsy about what happened? I don't know. You know, as long as you're all doing your jobs properly…. Interjections. The Chair: Order, please. Order, please. Let's stay on the subject. J.

MacPhail: As long as everybody's just telling the truth and doing their jobs properly, nobody has to worry. I just want everybody to calm down. This government comes in and clearly sides with one aspect of the industry. In fact, this is what I'm try- ing to get to the bottom of with this minister. If he wasn't siding with one ministry, shoving them letters, e-mailing them or telephoning them about investiga- tions, why doesn't he just stand up and say what his role is? No, he's stonewalling. He's a hostile witness. " S p e ak t o m y l a wy e r , " he s ay s . " S p e ak t o m y l aw y e r.

" In this case, it's the special prosecutor. The problem is that the special prosecutor's report won't be revealed.

6130 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 Let's carry on, then. Let's just see what's happening in the industry now and this great approach that this minister is taking to fish farming. It's interesting to note that no one is buying the minister's spin about his re- cord versus the previous government's record — no- body. It ain't working for any side of the debate on fish farming. Does the minister think that the industry has a higher standing in the public's eye now than it did un- der the previous government? Hon.

J. van Dongen: Certainly, as I said, we have put in place — right across the board — new, more effective and more focused regulations. We are enforc- ing those. In the coastal communities where aquaculture is a key industry, certainly those communities consider this industry important. They have seen job losses in the forest sector and the commercial fishing sector. If you look at places like Port Hardy, for example, the largest employer is a farmed fish processing plant.

If you add to the farm sector and the processing sector all of the jobs in the service and supply industry, I suggest to you that the people today in those communities con- sider that industry very, very important. We have always believed, and we have always de- veloped policy in such a way as to put the wild salmon first…. We are confident that the wild salmon and aquaculture can coexist, and all of our efforts in terms of policy and enforcement are geared towards that ob- jective. J.

MacPhail: Well, it's interesting that the minister didn't answer the question about whether there's a higher standing in the public eye of the industry now than under the previous government, because he'd have to answer that it's this Liberal government that's brought the industry into disrepute. It's this govern- ment that's refused to support initiatives that would help the industry and protect the environment. It's this government that's brought it into disrepute.

Today is another perfect example of how the reappointment of this minister to the fish portfolio will further damage the credibility of the fish-farming industry. On a side note, what's the market like right now for farmed salmon? Hon. J. van Dongen: The current price of farmed salmon on the world market is fairly depressed, based on additional volumes that have come into the global market from countries such as Chile. We're seeing some firming-up of prices and expect them to improve as time goes on. [1455] J. MacPhail: How does public perception of the industry affect the market? Hon.

J. van Dongen: In our discussions on this is- sue we have always made it clear that the marketing issues are the industry's problem. They're not our prob- lem. What we have said is that our objective is to create conditions where the opportunities exist, but for the farms to get approval for a new site or relocation, they have to go through a very comprehensive process. They have to meet all of our environmental standards. J. MacPhail: Is the minister aware of any comment internationally on the salmon-farming industry here in British Columbia — Los Angeles Times or anything like that? Hon.

J. van Dongen: There are always comments being made internationally and locally about all of our natural resource industries. Our job is to represent the interests of the people of British Columbia on these issues, and we're doing that. J. MacPhail: I wonder what the minister feels about British Columbians taking him seriously now. He actu- ally says that wild salmon are the most important, when his actions show that he's more concerned with the aquaculture side of the industry.

He won't come clean today about what his involvement is with the aquaculture industry, either prior to his suspension or after his suspension. What does he think the perception is today? Hon. J. van Dongen: I n t h e p a s t y e a r w e ' v e c e r - tainly engaged in a lot of activity focused on the wild fishery. I should say, first of all, that the management of the wild fishery is within the responsibility of the federal government. Our interest as a province is to ensure that we maximize the economic benefits to Brit- ish Columbians from the management of that fishery.

We work with the federal government, with the De- partment of Fisheries and Oceans, in a collaborative arrangement to try and ensure that subject to the con- servation requirements of the wild fishery, we promote the best use, the economic benefits and the distribution of those benefits within British Columbia. We have, for example, been very actively engaged with the federal government in a review of the Fraser River fishery. We've also been involved with the Minis- try of Attorney General on issues involving the use of f i s h i n t h e t r e a t y p r o c e s s .

A s I s a i d , w e h a v e w o r k e d hard in this ministry to develop a good, active working partnership with the federal government on any of the issues that involve the wild fishery. [1500] J. MacPhail: I'm wondering what the discussion has been amongst the officials of all of the ministries — the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food; the Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management; the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection; and Land and Water B.C. — since the special prosecutor's report. Hon.

J. van Dongen: In answer to the member's question, I can say that I'm not aware of any particular discussion between the ministries that she mentioned since the special prosecutor's report was filed.

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6131 J. MacPhail: Well, who did review the special prosecutor's report and then learn from it and make changes, if necessary? Or is the minister saying no changes were necessary? Hon. J. van Dongen: As I said earlier, the special prosecutor's report was forwarded to the Attorney General's ministry, and that's what I understand is the procedure. J. MacPhail: I think it will be interesting to see what the results of that special prosecutor's report are — the meaningful results — and what it means for the public in terms of learning anything from that investigation.

Clearly, so far the public doesn't seem to have bene- fited at all from (1) the investigation and (2) the minis- ter being reappointed. I must say it's my view that as of today's discussion, many more questions remain unan- swered rather than answered. I want to switch to a topic now dealing with McLeod's By-Products. McLeod's By-Products is a ren- dering plant in Armstrong. It has been the subject of complaints to both the Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection because of violations by it of its waste management permit.

In February of this year it was ordered by Provincial Court to pay a total of $46,000 in fines and compensation for its conduct. In October of 2001 the Citizens for North Okanagan Clean Air wrote the now Minister — the then-minister and again-minister — of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries, sitting in the minister's chair now, request- ing that he take action against McLeod's. The group then received a reply from the company stating that the com- pany had been contacted directly by the Minister of Fisheries and wished to find a solution to the ongoing complaints.

This group then wrote to the Premier and to the ombudsman complaining of the minister's action. In response, they received a written apology from the min- ister for interfering with this case. McLeod's, through its corporate parent, has do- nated $9,200 to the Liberal Party. All of this took place in the same time frame as the minister's interference with the investigation into Stolt Sea Farms. The two cases demonstrate a pattern of behaviour by the minister. Did the minister write the apology to the Citizens for North Okanagan Clean Air after he interfered with the Stolt Sea Farm investigation or be- fore? Hon.

J. van Dongen: As I indicated to the member, all of the information that was relevant to the special prosecutor would have been available to him. That report has been filed, and I refer the member to the Attorney General for the results of that report. The results were made public. J. MacPhail: I'm sorry. What was the last phrase the minister used? Hon. J. van Dongen: The results of the special prosecutor's report were made public. J. MacPhail: They were made public? I'm sorry, I didn't understand that phrase. What special prosecu- tor's report? Hon.

J. van Dongen: The results of the report were made public in a press release by the criminal justice branch on April 2. J. MacPhail: Okay, the minister is saying…. That's not even the question I had, but my gosh, you almost want to save the minister from himself by shutting down these estimates.

Unfortunately, my job is to ex- plore these issues on behalf of the public. [1505] The minister is saying, when I ask a question about McLeod's By-Products, that those people are supposed to go and find out about the minister's behaviour by reading a news release from the Attorney General about an investigation into Stolt Sea Farm? Let me try to ask the question in a different way. I read out what the minister did. The minister had to send a letter of apology to the Citizens for North Okanagan Clean Air. All I'm asking the minister…. It's got nothing to do with the criminal investigation.

The minister has already revealed that he contacted Stolt Sea Farms. He's already done that publicly. He said it was a mistake. So let's not even worry about the criminal investigation. Did the minister write the letter of apology to the Citi- zens for North Okanagan Clean Air after he made that mistake with Stolt Sea Farm or before? Hon. J. van Dongen: As I said, any information that the special prosecutor felt was relevant, I would as- sume, would have been available to him. The issue that has been raised by the member is also a matter of the public record, and as she said, I've apologized to the individuals.

I've never interfered in any investigation. J. MacPhail: It would be nice to have some proof of that. There's no criminal interference. But it would be ni c e f o r t he m i ni s t e r t o b e ab l e t o p ro v e hi s l a s t s t at e - ment, and he can't. When did the minister make the mistake to which he has admitted publicly? Hon. J. van Dongen: Again, I refer the member to the special prosecutor's report and that process. My conduct as a minister was fully investigated by the special prosecutor. The report has been filed, and the report has been forwarded, in the form of a press re- lease, to the public. J.

MacPhail: I just want to tell the minister that there's been a lot of feedback from this morning, and it isn't looking good so far for the minister. He might want to be a little more forthcoming in his answers. Did the minister act alone in writing the apology to the Citizens for North Okanagan Clean Air in October of 2001? Did the minister act alone in writing the apol- ogy, or did he get advice? Hon. J. van Dongen: I think it needs to be stated that the McLeod's By-Products problem is resolved.

6132 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 Again, that was a problem that went on for many, many years. As minister responsible for agriculture, food and fisheries, when I received the letter, I felt it was important to take action on it and inform the own- ers that there was an issue here that had to be dealt with. I've always supported the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection on that issue, and that issue is now resolved. J. MacPhail: Wow, that doesn't sound like much of an apology to me.

The minister interfered, took a com- plaint from a citizens group and notified the person against whom the complaint is made. He just tried to justify it. Look. I'll tell you something, Mr. Chair. It is the Premier's responsibility to appoint people to cabinet, and it does seem to me that the Premier ― we'll see; we'll see whether this is the case or not — is going to have more questions to answer about the reappoint- ment of this minister to cabinet. It is simply unaccept- able. The questions I'm asking….

The minister tries to defend, justify or obfuscate, but the last thing on this minister's mind is actually answering the questions directly and clearing up some confusion. I was giving the minister an opportunity to say that he sought ad- vice and that he would continue to seek advice after having to write the letter of apology to McLeod's, but none of that is forthcoming at all. [1510] I want to move to the issue of what the minister claims to be their good record on ensuring protection of water — the water quality and the wild fish stock — by his ministry. I don't know.

Does the minister have before him the Fallow Route for Pink Salmon Migration in the Broughton, January 2003 ? I have an extra copy. I can send it over. I wanted to make it clear. I was going to give the minister a copy of this. I have a copy of it. Hon. J. van Dongen: I have a map here entitled Pink Salmon Migration Corridors in the Broughton, Janu- ary 2003. J. MacPhail: S o r r y . I ' l l s e n d m y m a p o v e r . T h i s i s the map I'm working from.

It says: "Prepared by Deci- sion Support Services for Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries." Anyway, that's the map I'm working from; it's probably the same one. I'll just wait, Mr. Chair. The Chair: Leader of the Opposition. J. MacPhail: I'm going to ask my questions based on the map that I have. Is that okay? Questions around the Broughton Archipelago ac- tion plan. In February the Minister of Sustainable Re- source Management was also the Minister of Fisheries while this minister was under investigation.

During that time the ministry brought forward an action plan to deal with the threats facing pink salmon runs as a result of fish farms and sea lice. In doing so, the plan called for a safe migration route. This route, according to this map, begins at the Thompson Sound and travels through the Tribune Channel, then through the Fife Sound and out to the Queen Charlotte Strait. Am I right in that that's the route? Hon. J. van Dongen: Yes, I see the route that the member is talking about. J. MacPhail: Okay. That's the fallow route for pink salmon migration. I'm sorry.

That's the route that the ministry decided to deal with. The route goes directly through several fish farms that the ministry has instructed lay fallow during the migration, and on this particular map the ones that have been told to lay fallow are marked by a star, and then other salmon sites that aren't laid fallow are marked by a circle. How was the migration route de- termined? Hon. J. van Dongen: The route was determined by consulting with the local community as to what ap- peared to be the best route for pink salmon migration. J. MacPhail: By the local community? Who would that be? [1515] Hon.

J. van Dongen: The consultation on this issue took place at a workshop in January 2003, and it in- cluded a broad cross-section of people from the com- munity, including commercial fishermen, citizens, en- vironmentalists and people within the fish-farming industry. It was designed to determine the most logical route from the point of view of the migration of the pink salmon. J. MacPhail: Did the minister attend that meeting? Hon. J. van Dongen: No. J. MacPhail: So, was science used? I know the meet- ing that the minister is talking about, and this report….

It actually looks like maybe this map was presented to the group for their confirmation. I'm wondering: was science used to determine this route? Were there any studies completed? Hon. J. van Dongen: In speaking to the issue of selection of route, there was limited data available through DFO. On the issue of selection of route, the ministry and DFO jointly, in this workshop process, consulted with all the stakeholders in the community. J. MacPhail: The minister and I are working from the same map, but I want to try to explain this so that it goes on the record properly.

The fallow route for pink salmon migration that the minister invoked starts at Thompson Sound and then goes up the Tribune Chan- nel, but the actual route that the smolts follow is this. The Tribune Channel splits into two arms at Gilford

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6133 Island. One arm goes up north through the Tribune Channel, and a smolt route then also goes south around the south of Gilford Island into Knight Inlet. [1520] I'm wondering: what evidence does the minister have that he knows for sure that the migration route of pink salmon smolts only heads strictly north and around Gilford Island and not down to the Knight Inlet? Hon. J. van Dongen: In the process of consulting with the community and DFO, it was certainly recog- nized that pink salmon can take different routes. In es- tablishing the action plan….

The plan was designed to allow strategic fallowing on one of the routes and then look at other options and other management regimes to put in place on the alternate routes that pink salmon could also travel. Things such as accelerating the harvest or coordinating monitoring and treatment schedules on those alternate routes were put in place so that we were able to test two different management regimes. J. MacPhail: Has the minister got any signs…? Sorry, even I can't ask that question.

I was going to say, "Are there signs telling the young pink smolts which way to leave Thompson Sound?" but I couldn't bring myself to ask that of the minister, not knowing how salmon actually write. What evidence does the minister have that the smolts are migrating north of Gilford Island, and is he willing to adjust his fallowing migration route? Hon. J. van Dongen: We went with the best avail- able information at the time in selecting the routes and the management regimes on those routes.

Part of the plan is to increase monitoring and increase research so that in the future we have better data on which to base these management decisions. [1525] J. MacPhail: Okay, but if the minister didn't have the science to start with and if he's not certain the pinks do not use Knight Inlet, what is he doing to ensure that the Broughton Archipelago action plan will be success- ful at all? Hon.

J. van Dongen: In terms of the monitoring program, DFO, together with ourselves — because we have staff involved in that process — are monitoring sea lice levels on pink salmon both in the fresh water at the exits from the rivers and in the marine areas around the Broughton. In addition to that, farms have reporting requirements every two weeks in terms of sea lice levels on their farms. All of that data is being collated to help drive the management regime in this area during the out-migration of the pink salmon. J. MacPhail: What has it shown? Hon.

J. van Dongen: To date, the results show very low sea lice levels in the area. There have been treat- m e n t s p u t i n p l a c e o n a c o u p l e o f t h e f a r m s , a n d a s I understand it, there will be further reports posted on a website in the near future. J. MacPhail: Has it shown anything about migra- tion routes? [1530] Hon. J. van Dongen: The Department of Fisheries and Oceans is monitoring the out-migration of pink salmon smolts from the river and streams, and we are doing standard sampling on both the north route and the south route, those different areas.

At the present time, based on what are really very preliminary num- bers, the indications are that there are more pink salmon going the north route that the member talks about than the south route. J. MacPhail: I have a technical question about the north route. On this map where the fallow route goes from Thompson Sound, through the Tribune Channel and out into the Johnstone Strait, there are two islands: Gilford Island, which I want to talk about, and Eden Island.

I note that there's a fish farm that has been laid fal- low at Eden Island, and there's one that's been laid fallow on the western tip of Gilford Island. In between those two, there's another fish farm that hasn't been laid fallow. Does the minister see — I've got it circled in yellow there — why? It's the lower right-hand yellow circle. Hon. J. van Dongen: The plan was based on strate- gic fallowing along the major migration routes. The farms the member cites that are not fallowed were not on those major migration routes. J.

MacPhail: Based on this map, the one that wasn't laid fallow is right in between two that were. Perhaps the minister could provide the science that excluded that farm from being fallowed. Hon. J. van Dongen: As I said, it was viewed that, generally, the pink salmon would take the northern route — the main channel — and the fallowing was done on that basis. J. MacPhail: Okay, but there's a fish farm south of the one that wasn't laid fallow, which was laid fallow. So help me. Can the minister see it on the map there? My apologies. I've circled it. One fish farm on Eden Island has been laid fallow.

The southern one on Gil- ford Island, the tip of Gilford Island, has been laid fal- low. The one that's between Baker Island and Eden Island hasn't been laid fallow. Hon. J. van Dongen: Sometimes farm sites are fal- lowed for reasons other than this Broughton Archipel- ago pink salmon management plan. Sometimes they may be fallowed for purposes of the Waste Manage-

6134 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 ment Act, for example, and that may be the case for this site. [1535] J. MacPhail: Well, does the minister know? I'll ask my next question: on the ministry map and in the gov- ernment announcement I counted 12 sites that were to be fallowed. How many of those 12 sites were already empty or slated for relocation? Hon. J. van Dongen: One of the sites that was fal- lowed is a site that is scheduled for relocation. At one site, Glacier Falls, the ministry had to force the com- pany not to restock. All of the other sites were fallowed voluntarily. J.

MacPhail: So there were only two of those 12 that had some other direction, and all the rest were in full operation? Hon. J. van Dongen: As I said, on the balance I'm going to say ten. I'm not sure about the exact number, but the member talks about ten sites. The farms voluntarily agreed to cooperate as part of this action plan to fallow those sites and keep them fallow through the critical out- migration period for the pink salmon.

We can't say with any certainty whether or not possibly some of those sites might have been fallowed for other reasons or whether they might have been restocked if the action plan didn't exist. We know that in some cases on those sites, follow- ing normal management procedures, some of those sites would have been restocked. All of those other sites, the ten sites we talk about, were fallowed. That was part of the commitment that was secured from the industry in putting together this action plan. [1540] J. MacPhail: I'm surprised the minister can't give me a more definitive answer about that.

I was told that at least four of them were already fallowed. I assume my information wasn't better than the minister's. On the map there's a site in the Simoom Sound. I've got it circled. It's above the migration route north of the fallow r o u t e f o r p i n k s a l m o n m i g r a t i o n . N o w , o n e f a r m i s t o b e fallowed, but the one that's actually closer to the Tribune Channel is not to be fallowed. What's the story there? Hon.

J. van Dongen: In response to the member's earlier comment — she talked about four sites already being fallowed — I think the point there is that we se- cured commitments from the farms not to restock when they could have restocked during the critical out- migration period. In terms of the member's question, that particular site she referred to is stocked with juveniles, where the science says there's little risk in terms of sea lice. That was agreed to between our ministry and the Depart- ment of Fisheries and Oceans. J. MacPhail: Okay.

Now, the minister will see that I've got, on the right side of the map, an area marked in yellow. There's an arrow to it calling it Humphrey Rock. Why is the ministry allowing Stolt Sea Farm to set up a new farm at Humphrey Rock? It's on the east side of Gilford Island in the Tribune Channel, and it's near the migration route for smolts. Hon. J. van Dongen: The Humphrey Rock site was the subject of an application for a relocation, and that application went in and was received on April 10, 2001.

It had gone through a very comprehensive application process through all of the agencies and was approved by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans — and the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act approval in March of 2003. [1545] J. MacPhail: Could the minister explain why Hum- phrey Rock is getting a fish farm when the local Gilford Island first nations band has been told the fish farms in their territory will be removed? Hon. J. van Dongen: The first nations consultation would have been done on this site by Land and Water B.C., which is under the Ministry of Sustainable Re- source Management.

It is one of the agencies that re- ceives a referral. It's actually Land and Water B.C., which is the single window for applications. It receives the application, and it would have followed all of the applicable consultative processes with first nations. J. MacPhail: That's interesting, because the people of the Gilford village recently wrote a letter to the fed- eral Department of Fisheries and Oceans. It's very rele- vant here — even more relevant pursuant to the minis- ter's most recent answer. I'm going to read it into the record, and I want the minister's response.

The letter was sent to the opposition by the Living Oceans Society, which has been advocating on behalf of the first nations band, and they have asked us to get the answers here. The letter was written yesterday. It's from the — and my apologies to the band for my pro- nunciation — Huksotaniauk-ayquay-ameesh band. It's o n S i m o o m S o u nd , B . C . T hi s i s a l e t t e r t o J o hn D av i s , the regional director general of Fisheries and Oceans Canada: "Dear Dr. Davis: "I am writing this letter to you on behalf of the people of Gilford village.

It has come to our attention that your department has completed its environmental assessment of Humphrey Rock in the Broughton Archipelago and granted licence to Stolt Sea Farm without involving us in this decision. "We are appalled at this. You state publicly that first nations are involved in your process, but we were not. Due to reasons beyond our control, as of January 29 we have been without a chief and have not had the capacity to address this issue the way we would have hoped.

"We have never agreed to any of the fish farms in our territory, but with recent sea lice issues, it is even clearer that your department must exercise the precautionary principle. If this principle is being used, how can you allow more farmed salmon into the

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6135 Broughton when there are so many unanswered questions? "We question your department and feel that your decision-making process is a scam. If you were following this process, you would have waited until we have elected our new chief. This will be happening in May. We ask that you reconsider your decision, direct your department to follow the process properly and meet with us when we have proper representation in May. "This new application is in our traditional territory, and we have valid concerns that affect our resources that we rely on to survive.

The overwhelming evidence of the link between the collapse of last year's pink salmon runs and the sea lice coming from fish farms is reason enough to remove all open-net cage systems from this area. "The fact that this site has been approved shows that we are being ignored. As we speak, Stolt Sea Farm is setting up at Humphrey Rock. This is against all our requests, as we constantly tell you we are opposed to open-net cage salmon farming in our territory. "We, the Huksotaniauk-ayquay-ameesh first nation people, oppose your decision to grant a licence to Humphrey Rock.

We ask that you follow the process that has been set up by your own government, and put this on hold until you have met with us. "To set up a meeting, please contact me as soon as possible. We look forward to a quick response, as Stolt's has plans to put fish in the water at Humphrey Rock in the next two weeks." It's signed by Calvin Johnson. [1550] The application was first made two years ago. What proof does the minister have that they've done any consultation with the first nations? Clearly, the first nation affected hasn't been contacted. Hon.

J. van Dongen: I want to say, first of all, that I cannot speak for agencies other than the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries, but in the process of working through an application, we do rely on the consultative process that is implemented by Land and Water British Columbia for the province. They follow all the procedures and guidelines that are laid out by the province in conducting that consultation with first nations. J. MacPhail: Is the minister downloading this onto the Minister of Sustainable Resource Management for the answers?

I mean, I think it's a bit specious for the minister to slough this off by saying that the Gilford village wrote to Fisheries and Oceans Canada. Yes, they did write to Fisheries and Oceans Canada, but what they said was that they haven't been consulted by anybody. Is the minister passing the buck to the Minis- ter of Sustainable Resource Management? Hon. J. van Dongen: Under the single-window a p p r o a c h t h a t w e ' v e d e v e l o p e d , t h e M i n i s t r y o f S u s - tainable Resource Management, through Land and Water British Columbia, has the primary responsibility for siting and tenuring.

As part of that process, they carry out full consultation with first nations, as I said, following procedures and guidelines prescribed by the province for that purpose. In issuing our licence, we have to be satisfied that the consultation process took place. Again, I can't speak for Land and Water British Columbia in terms of the actual process they engaged in on this case. J. MacPhail: Well, Mr. Chair, through those listen- ing up there, stay tuned. I'll be asking that same ques- tion of the Minister of Sustainable Resource Manage- ment after we finish here. [1555] Now, the Fraser report. Let me just….

Is the minis- ter familiar with the Fraser report, Making Sense of the Salmon Aquaculture Debate , prepared for the Pacific Fisheries Resource Conservation Council in January 2003? I assume the minister is familiar with that. Per- haps the minister could answer: is it not true that the Fraser report's first recommendation was to fallow the entire Broughton? Hon. J. van Dongen: The Fraser report really set out two options. One was complete fallowing of the Broughton, and the second option was a strategic fal- lowing of the Broughton.

Ultimately, the management plan that was put in place, using the best information available from both the community and the scientific community, was the second option. J. MacPhail: But I asked the minister what scientific evidence, scientific input, he had for the strategic fal- lowing, and he didn't have any. It was community in- put. You know, consistency is important on this issue. Perhaps the minister could explain what he sees as the precautionary approach. Hon.

J. van Dongen: When we were talking earlier with the member about the use of the community, we were talking with specific reference to the selection of route and establishing one route where we did fallow- ing and another route where we did comprehensive management of the operations. The overall objective of the action plan was to pro- tect wild fish, and we engaged the international scien- tific community, including people locally from institu- tions such as the University of British Columbia and Malaspina University College, in the development of this plan.

There was a lot of scientific input into this plan from a number of sources and a very broad-based approach. We engaged in an area-based management ap- proach that involved a combination of a lot of different management practices, different aspects such as strate- gic fallowing, which we mentioned, and we accelerated harvest to get more sites fallow. We coordinated the monitoring, and we're working with DFO and the farms on monitoring and treatments.

We backed that up with research to improve the data on which we can base our management regimes. [1600] We're committed to continual improvement, in- cluding auditing for compliance and enforcement and public reporting. As I said, some of the data that's be-

6136 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 ing collected in these early stages will be going up on both websites — the DFO's and our own. Overall, we have taken a precautionary approach on this action plan to ensure the viability of the wild stock. J. MacPhail: Who were the scientists from UBC and Malaspina College, please? R. Lee: Mr. Chair, I would like to ask for leave to make an introduction. Leave granted. Introductions by Members R. Lee: In the House today we have a group of 26 students and their teachers, Mrs. Pritchard and Mr. Austin, from Westridge Elementary School in Burnaby.

S i x p a r e n t s a l s o c a m e w i t h t h i s g r o u p . T h e y a r e M r s . Crivici, Mrs. Brizzi, Mrs. Pandur, Mrs. Tran, Mrs. Finamore and Mrs. Larden. They are visiting the House today to study government, parliamentary procedures and the history of this great province. Would the House please make them welcome. Debate Continued Hon. J. van Dongen: There was a broad-based group of scientists, a list of scientists, involved in this workshop that included Dr. Bill Pennell from Malaspina College and Dr. Scott McKinley from the University of British Columbia. J.

MacPhail: The reason why I asked about the pre- cautionary principle is because the Rio declaration, for which Canada is a signatory and therefore it's legally binding on us, defines the precautionary principle as this: "Where there are threats of serious or irreversible damage, lack of full scientific certainty shall not be used as a reason for postponing cost-effective measures to prevent environmental degradation." That's No. 1. No. 2 is that the Fraser report said, as its first rec- ommendation, full fallowing — complete fallowing.

This minister chose not to go that route, so let me ask this: why didn't his ministry follow through with the precautionary approach on this action plan? The complete fallowing of the Broughton was the precautionary approach. It was the first recommenda- tion of the Fraser report. How does the minister justify that while he also claims to say that wild salmon are his number one priority? He's now just admitted — or I cannot get any more confirmation — that the migration route set up is just a guess, at best, and that there are salmon farms that have been left all over the pinks' habitat. [R.

Stewart in the chair.] [1605] Hon. J. van Dongen: The conservation council's report certainly recommended the precautionary ap- proach, and we've applied that based on scientific ad- vice in the Broughton action plan, including a combina- tion of strategic fallowing, managing treatments on farms based on scientific evidence of sea lice, enhanced monitoring, etc.

I think it needs to be stated that the conservation council also said, in advising a precautionary ap- proach, that to date there is no direct evidence of salmon farms causing the sea lice issue or being the cause of the pink salmon numbers as they unfolded between 2000, 2001 and 2002. All of that information was factored into the scientific advice we got to de- velop the approach that we took. The Chair: The Chair calls a five-minute recess. The committee recessed from 4:06 p.m. to 4:14 p.m. [R. Stewart in the chair.] J.

MacPhail: A c o u p l e o f w e e k s a g o m y o f f i c e r e - ceived a letter from Alexandra Morton. As everybody knows, she sent a letter to all MLAs in the hopes of raising the awareness of what's going on in the Broughton Archipelago, the area we were just talking about. Her letter is largely a response to what she heard during the last open cabinet meeting. However, she does take the time to go through the aquaculture debate issue by issue. My office actually contacted Ms. Morton, and she has given us permission to use this letter to try and get some answers out of the minister.

I'm wondering whether the minister saw this letter. Hon. J. van Dongen: I don't recall the letter. I've certainly seen letters by Alexandra Morton, but I don't recall the letter the member is talking about. J. MacPhail: Has the minister met with Ms. Mor- ton? [1615] Hon. J. van Dongen: No, I have not. J. MacPhail: Okay. Well, we'll go through this then, piece by piece. This was to all B.C. MLAs, and it was at the time when the minister wasn't in cabinet, so I'm surprised: " I h a v e j u s t r e a d t h e t r a n s c r i p t o f t h e H o n .

S t a n Hagen's remarks at the open B.C. cabinet meeting on salmon farming. I believe I am one of the scientists on 'the other side,' and I feel there is additional information MLAs will need to answer the questions of their constituents. "Recent media on salmon farming has raised awareness of this issue considerably, and therefore, if you repeat Hagen's comments" — I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. I'm reading from the letter, but the Minister of Sustainable Resource Management's comments — "for example, that sea lice have always been around, many people will realize the Liberal government is not well-informed.

"I have lived in the Broughton Archipelago for 19 years, studying killer whales and dolphins. I have

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6137 written four books, including one with Random House. I am senior author on five scientific publications in peer- reviewed North American and European journals. I am a B.C. registered biologist, founder and director of Raincoast Research and mother of two in a remote coastal community. "I am the scientist who first reported the sea lice epidemic in the Broughton Archipelago. After years writing over 10,000 pages of letters to all levels of government, I decided to step outside my field and do aquaculture impact research myself.

As a result, I have not only seen all below firsthand but have communicated with the majority of world experts on these various issues. "First, sea lice." This continues from Alexandra Morton's letter: "The minister is correct. Sea lice have likely been around as long as salmon, but the problem is simply that salmon farms have dangerously altered the biology of one marine species of louse. In a nutshell, sea lice die when adult salmon carry them into freshwater during spawning migrations. In spring, therefore, there are no lice in coastal waters to infect the very small juvenile salmon leaving the rivers.

"Today, however, adult wild salmon pass sea lice to salmon farms where sea lice thrive, as all parasites do, on stationary, high-host densities. Even the lights used to promote salmon growth further stimulate lice production. Salmon farms now offer an overwintering haven lice never had before." I'll just stop there for a moment in Dr. Morton's letter, and I'll ask a couple of questions. Dr. Morton has provided quite a specific and technical description of sea lice biology. Is her description accurate? Hon.

J. van Dongen: My staff indicate they are in the process of preparing a technical response to Alex- andra Morton and the letter the member cites. I should also say that Alexandra Morton was a participant in both workshops — the workshop in January that was conducted and then the larger, more comprehensive workshop, I think, in February that included all of the other scientists, including the international scientists and the people we mentioned from Malaspina and the University of British Columbia. [1620] J. MacPhail: Yes, and I think all the more credit to Alexandra Morton for that.

She's willing to work inside the tent. This letter was written after this and particularly after the open cabinet meeting that I think occurred…. The former Minister of Fisheries' presentation was within the last month. Thank you for pointing out just how important Ms. Morton's questions…. Well, she didn't ask these questions; I'm asking them as a result of this letter. This letter is a couple of months old, so I'm going to continue on. What scientific study has the ministry done on sea lice? Hon. J. van Dongen: We have not been previously engaged in specific studies on sea lice.

With respect to that matter, we've been engaged in implementing whatever the recommendations were in the SAR re- port. We are currently involved very actively with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans in monitoring the sea lice issue in the Broughton and using that data to d o f u r t h e r r e s e a r c h o n t h i s i s s u e , a n d w e a r e i n t h e process of putting in place four further studies on the sea lice issue. J. MacPhail: What work has the government exam- ined from Ireland, Norway and Scotland about sea lice issues? Hon.

J. van Dongen: The purpose of our workshop in February was to bring together experts from all over the world, including scientists from Europe, and they brought all of their experience and scientific knowledge with respect to the sea lice issue to that international workshop. That was all input into the development of our action plan in the Broughton. J. MacPhail: Is the minister aware that the Norwe- gian government recently committed to the complete removal of open-net salmon farms from the fjords that are major salmon habitats? [1625] Hon.

J. van Dongen: We are aware that in Nor- way they are engaging in some area management in terms of siting their farms, and this would be part of the siting process that the Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management, through Land and Water British Columbia, will be…. It's within their area of responsibility to take into account all of the factors that go into determining whether or not a site is an appropriate site for a salmon farm, so they would take into account the same kind of factors that Nor- way would be considering in their area management regime. J. MacPhail: M s .

M o r t o n t h e n g o e s i n t o f u r t h e r detail about the differences our salmon face here in the Pacific and how the threat of sea lice is even more se- vere in B.C. I'll continue to read from her letter. "Two of our salmon species, the pink salmon and the chum salmon, are unique. What sets them apart is they do not spend a year feeding and growing in the rivers. As a result, they go to sea four to five times smaller than any other salmon. Unfortunately, the smaller a salmon, the fewer lice it can bear.

So when our little pinks and chums go by the farms and pick up more than one to two lice, they are doomed. I have recorded up to 68 lice per 3.5-centimetre fish. "Much more research is needed to pin this down. It might be that they cannot bear a single louse. Among the 2,000 young salmon I have examined from Vancouver Island to Prince Rupert, I found pinks and chums with lice do not grow properly. My research predicted an unbelievable 81 percent crash of pink stocks in the Broughton Archipelago, and in fact 98 percent failed to return. This decline is even greater than any recorded in the history of this coast.

"The senior Department of Fisheries and Oceans scientists who examined all possible causes found only sea lice linked in all eight of the affected rivers together in this fate."

6138 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 That's a report out of 2002. "The extent of this collapse is typical to Europe and eastern Canada where salmon farms and wild salmon meet in confined waters. "I accept sea lice are not the only problem, but when a phenomena such as this jumps around the planet with one common variable, then that variable — salmon farms — must raise suspicions. When the minister counts 40 sea lice scientists, he is counting the people who published on salmon collapse due to sea lice in salmon- farmed areas such as Norway, Scotland and Ireland.

Nobody is publishing contrary results." I'm just going to pause for a second and ask some questions of the minister. Last year during estimates the minister admitted that in the summer of 2001, there were reports of sea lice infestations. He said in those estimates: "There were certainly such allegations made last summer in the Broughton area, and those allega- tions were fully investigated. The scientists and veteri- narians with both the federal and provincial govern- ments confirmed in their report that there were low levels of sea lice present.

None of the allegations were proven to be valid." That's what the minister said last year, and since then there was a pink crash, and the Fraser report in- sisted on caution, and the government had to do a 180- degree shift in policy. If the minister was aware of the sea lice threat, why did he wait two years to take action? [1630] Hon. J. van Dongen: I think a couple of things need to be pointed out. First of all, the run of pink salmon in the year 2000 was a record run — eight times the pre- vious average.

During the time that salmon aquacul- ture was in place in this region, we saw a significant increase over time in the odd-numbered years in terms of the run of pink salmon. When it became clear that the pink salmon run of 2002 was down very significantly, we embarked on an action plan, together with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, to bring together the best possible infor- mation and put in place this action plan.

We included, as I said, all of the scientific community and the local community to put together the best possible precau- tionary plan that we could, involving identifying dif- ferent routes with different management regimes that will allow us to collect data and better improve our knowledge of the pink salmon run in this area. J. MacPhail: Could the minister explain what Slice is? Hon. J. van Dongen: Slice is a medical treatment that is used to control sea lice. J. MacPhail: I'm sorry. I was talking inappropri- ately. Could the minister please repeat that? Hon.

J. van Dongen: Slice is a prescribed treatment for sea lice, which is medicated and put through the feed. J. MacPhail: Is it a neurotoxin? Hon. J. van Dongen: That's a very technical ques- tion, and the staff I have with me are not able to advise me on that question. J. MacPhail: Well, isn't the minister using Slice or recommending the use of Slice to eliminate sea lice or reduce sea lice, as opposed to laying fallow fish farms? Hon. J. van Dongen: The product Slice is a medical treatment, which can only be prescribed by a veterinar- ian. [1635] J. MacPhail: Okay, sorry.

Slice is being used now to control sea lice at the advice of the ministry, is it not? Hon. J. van Dongen: As part of the Broughton ac- tion plan and the management of sea lice issue, we recommend treatment on farms when they get to a certain point or if the data shows that it's warranted. But the actual treatment itself — the product that's used — has to be prescribed by a veterinarian, and as I understand it, there are some options that veterinarians could use. J. MacPhail: Is Slice controlled under the Canada Health Act? Is it controlled under the Pesticide Control Act? Hon.

J. van Dongen: The product Slice is a thera- peutant, and it is controlled by the Bureau of Veteri- nary Drugs, which is, I'm told, a federal agency. J. MacPhail: I'm advised that it's also controlled under the Canada Health Act and the Pesticide Control Act, and it is considered a pesticide. But I'm happy to have the minister say that's not the case, if that isn't the case. His website does say there are no pesticides used in the aquaculture industry in British Columbia, and I am advised that Slice wouldn't meet that test.

There are lots of people watching out there who will correct the minister if he's wrong — or me — but I'm willing to take the minister's answer for it. Also on the website on the sea lice information page, it says: "Compared to other jurisdictions, sea lice have not yet posed a significant problem for farmed salmon in British Columbia. The ministry monitors the amount of antibiotics and other treatments prescribed by veterinarians in the control of diseases and pests like sea lice." Would the minister consider that state- ment accurate? Hon.

J. van Dongen: I'm going to ask the member to repeat the question, but on the Slice issue, in the application that it's being used on salmon farms, it's considered a therapeutant, and it is under the Bureau of Veterinary Drugs. If the member could repeat her last question…. J. MacPhail: That's the auspices under which it's being used on salmon farms. But it is also, I am told, a

TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6139 neurotoxin. It is controlled under the Canada Health Act; it is controlled under the Pesticide Control Act. It may also need to be prescribed by a veterinarian, but it doesn't mean that the rest of this doesn't apply. [1640] I read this quote out from the minister's own web- site on sea lice information. It says: "Compared to other jurisdictions, sea lice have not yet posed a significant problem for farmed salmon in British Columbia.

The ministry monitors the amount of antibiotics and other treatments prescribed by veterinarians in the control of diseases and pests like sea lice." Would the minister consider that statement accurate? Hon. J. van Dongen: Yes, member, I consider the statement accurate. The industry has to meet very stringent requirements on antibiotics for the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, and they have to provide fish health reports and the treatments they use to our staff in Courtenay. J.

MacPhail: I find it surprising that the minister still confirms that that's an accurate statement after all the recent developments and reports. Let me carry on with Ms. Morton's letter. I'm back to it, quoting from it. "I can tell you that I have been given a very rough ride for making this discovery here. My two years of work on this has not provided me a salary. I completed it with the help of international experts because I am deeply concerned. I have produced two papers at various stages of completion.

Presentation of this work has been requested at five major conferences and workshops — unprecedented in my career and an indication of the serious nature of this event. I am alarmed salmon farming companies clearly chose to ignore the very stringent regulations designed in their home countries to prevent exactly the crash we saw here and will likely see again this year. "For example, despite being considered the leading cause of the biggest B.C. wild salmon collapse in history, B.C. salmon farmers have continued to refuse to reveal crucial data on how many lice they have on their fish.

If they were not a source of lice, I would think that they would make their numbers available and allow me on their farms. In Norway they must report lice numbers on the 15th of every month or face fines in the range of $100,000 daily — depending on how many fish they have — and jail if they fail to comply." Okay, a pause here from Ms. Morton's letter. Is the minister aware of the regulations in place in Norway in regard to sea lice? Hon. J. van Dongen: Yes, we are aware of the pro- gram for sea lice in Norway.

In British Columbia we have amended the conditions of licence, and farms do have to report sea lice numbers, again, to our staff. J. MacPhail: If the minister was aware that sea lice was an issue in other jurisdictions — he just admitted it now, and he has admitted it on his website — why has it taken so long to take any action? This issue has been brewing completely, as Ms. Morton has said, for the last two years. Combine the information out of other countries and the knowledge that pink and chum and B.C. are especially at risk, it would seem obvious that the ministry wasn't doing enough. Ms.

Morton warned of the dangers almost two years ago. [1645] In his opening remarks, the minister said that he developed the most comprehensive regulations for aquaculture. How is it that he's just getting onto this now? When did the regulation come into effect where sea farms will have to report sea lice, and how do those regulations compare to Norway? Hon. J. van Dongen: Sea lice were not identified in the SAR report as a significant issue in British Colum- bia.

When we were aware it became an issue, we took immediate action, and all of the farms in the Broughton, as a condition of licence, have to report their sea lice data to the ministry. J. MacPhail: When did that come into effect? Hon. J. van Dongen: It came into effect this spring as a result of the two workshops that we conducted into the sea lice issue, which included, as I said, a broad base of scientists and community stakeholders in the process. J. MacPhail: The minister uses the salmon aquacul- ture review as the reason to lift the moratorium.

Sea lice weren't a problem reported in the salmon aquacul- ture review. Not surprising — it was completed in 1997, almost six years ago now. Ms. Morton, as a registered biologist, brings it to the attention of this ministry almost two years ago, and this minister acts…. When? Last week the regulations came into effect — April 1? How will the regulation work? Hon. J. van Dongen: In response to the member, the ministry, together with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, did act when the relatively low returns of pink salmon were clear in 2002 as a result of the 2002 numbers.

It should be stated that pink salmon runs fluctu- ate very significantly in nature. The actions that we take to improve the regulatory regime have to be based on some evidence that has some base of scien- tific knowledge to it. We put in place in a condition of licence, under the aquaculture regulation, the re- quirement for these farms to report their data on the monitoring of sea lice on those farms and the treat- ments that they were using. J. MacPhail: Just for the sake of the members of the House, this would go a lot faster if the minister would actually answer my question.

That was the answer he gave previously. What is the regulation? How does it work? How often do they have to report? What's the fine for non- compliance? Is it equal to Norway's? Is it made public?

6140 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003 Has anybody started doing this yet, or was it April 1 that it came into effect — six days ago? [1650] Hon. J. van Dongen: First of all, in answer to the member's question, the methodology that's used is consistent with other jurisdictions. The farms have been collecting the data for the past three months. It has been a condition of their licence since March. They report every two weeks. The first set of numbers will be posted on our website tomorrow. The fines are $2,000 under the regulation, and each day is a separate event or could be a separate fine. J.

MacPhail: Well, I guess that doesn't compare to the $100,000 daily that the Norway regulation has. It's probably not the most comprehensive. Maybe the min- ister should stop saying they have the most compre- hensive set of regulations on fish farms. Recently, when this minister was on hiatus, his replacement stated publicly that aquaculture fines were nonsensical. What is the minister doing to bring some sense, then, to the fines system? Hon. J. van Dongen: T h e a s p e c t o f f i n e s i s w i t h i n the legislation itself.

We are working with the Ministry of Attorney General to seek amendments to the legisla- tion, and we expect to have amendments tabled in the fall with respect to fines. J. MacPhail: That information was all available to the previous Minister of Fisheries, and he still called it nonsensical. Has industry commented on what an in- crease in fines would do to business? Have they offered up any opinions to the minister? Hon. J. van Dongen: I don't recall having any opin- ions from industry on the issue of fines. J. MacPhail: I'm going to go back to Ms. Morton's letter now.

She turns to the issue of escapes — escaped Atlantic salmon. "The minister is mistaken in drawing th

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0408pm-04
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0408pm 04
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d8fffe949aa16342891f60a1c0c5955838d886b4

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