Volume XL Friday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 75 6 December 1985

House met at 10:00 a.m . SPEAKER (McNicholas): er, please! Statements by Ministers POWER: Speaker. · SPEAKER: hon. the Minister of Career elopment and Advanced Studies. POWER: Jould just like to take a moment ask the House to send a letter condolence to the family of the . e Ella Manuel, who was a enth generation Newfoundlander 1m Woody Point, in Bonne Bay. . Manuel was a writer who wrote ·ticularly for children, aiming make them conscious on social ues. She was a writer and earcher for CBC.

She also •mitted a brief to the Royal 1mission on the Status of Women the loneliness and isolation .ed by women in Newfoundland and •rador. November of 1980 Miss Manuel :arne the only Newfoundland woman receive the Persons • Award, .ch is awarded by the Governor 1eral of Canada to honour women have worked much of their 1es to improve the status of 1en in this country. Miss Manuel a pioneer, a feminist and a 1an with a social conscience .1 ahead o.f her time. I am sure colleagues would want to join :h me in sending a letter of 1dolence to her family. BARRY: Speaker . )48 December 6, 1985 Vol XL MR.

SPEAKER : The hon. the Opposition. MR. BARRY : Leader of the The minister was kind enough to give me notice that he would be raising this matter. We gladly join with other members of the House in supporting this request for a resolution of condolence to go to the family of Ella Manuel. I had the opportunity to meet Miss Manuel on a number of occasions. Miss Manuel was a person who - it is rare to find, I guess - in her own lifetime was recognized as somebody who is deserving of the highest esteem. She had obtained the respect of her peers in the teaching profession .

I met her on a number of occasions, at conferences. I had the opportunity to chat with her and I found her to be, Mr. Speaker, a very knowledgeable, but also a very sensitive and understanding individual, understanding of the problems that affect people on a human level . I think that we can point to Miss Manuel as a person who has made a tremendous contribution to our Province and would that we had, Mr. Speaker, more people like here . I think her entire career was exemplary. I think all members should join in this resolution of condolence. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the No. 75 R4048

Q.p.po :si tion. MR' ·~ EfA R RY: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minis .ter of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) , I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs, (Mr. Ottenheimer) whether the P-r·ovi .ncial government has made any approaches to the Government of Canada with respect to the obtaining of a firefighting tug for the City of St. John • s. The minister might be aware that a couple of months ago now, just be-fore the House opened, if I r-e·cal.l, there was quite a serious F~re resulting in a fatality on t~e waterfront. St.

John's firemen indicated that it was a o.e-ry perilous proceed for them to g;et at that fire, there were ce~tain inflamable, and, I believe, explosive materials in the area, and the view was e·x:pressed that a firefighting tug would have been very important in helping tci extinguish that p.articular blaze. Mr. Speaker, as thirrgs progress, and we hope the Harbour will increase in traffic, we are going to see more and more hazardous cargoes being brought into the Harbour. What is government doing to ensure that we have adequate firefighting facilities for that port? ~R. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker. M'R.

SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of ~ntergovernmental Affairs. I'll\~. OTTENHEI MER: M''l!". Speaker, in answer to a question of the Leader of the Opposition, I can certainly inform him and members of the House that the government have for quite a period of time been endeavouring IL404-9 December 6, 1985 Vol XL to have appropriate firefightit equipment, a firefighting tu~ available for the City of Si John's harbour.

I could not say when the la~ representation was made, but know that representations ha~ been made for a period of time That has been something which, c a consistent basis, governmer have endeavoured to have secure here for St. John's harbour. MR. BARRY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of tr Opposition, on a supplementary. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, would the ministe indicate whether there has bee any response received from th Government of Canada or whethe there is any indication this ne era of co-operation an consultation is going to brin results in this particular area? MR.

OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister o Intergovernmental Affairs. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I believe that th latest representations on tha were made by the Minister o Transport. I do not know reall to speak as a fact what the exac response was, so I would have t check with him and inform the han gentleman. I realize the Hous will probably be closing, but will certainly undertake to do i by phone or in writing. Rathe l than spectulate, it woul• certainly be preferable for me b check with the hon. gentleman b No. 75 R4049

what the response was at the e of the latest res entation. But I know that r·esentations have been going on quite some period of time. BARRY: upplementary, Mr. Speaker . SPEAKER: supplementary, the hon. the der of the Opposition. IJARRY: as.sume that the minister would aware if the Government of ada had rejected the concept. 1 ~~ assume that there has been communication of any rejection government up to this point in 1e? SPEAKER: hon. Minister of .ergouernmental Affairs.

OTTENHEIMER: Speaker, I do not think there been any rejection as such, .. the exact reply to the latest 1·resentation I am not aware of, ~o not have first-hand knowledge it. I know that I had an lolvement in it about a year and half or so ago and, of course, 1t was under the former dnistration in Ottawa, and the ililems posed, which I thought ·e not necessarily valid ones, ·e jurisdictional ones - certain :ponsibilities onshore versus tain responsibilities :s.hore. I do not think that was !r entirely valid.

But there : not been to, my knowledge,.~ny ection, and I understand the :ter is still under discussion, I would be speculating to d:ct the latest reaction of the :est discussion without a ·st-hand knowledge of it. . SPEAKER: )\5(), December 6, 1985 Vol XL The hon. the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I would like to table this letter that I received from Mr. Mazankowski, and I suggest the minister should get up to Ottawa this afternoon because there has been a serious breakdown in his intergovernmental relations according to the message in this letter, which basically says, Mr.

Speaker, that the concept of a firefighting tug for the port of St. John's has been turned down by the Government of Canada. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister is aware that the Government of Canada is pointing to the firefighting capabilities of the St. John 1 s Fire Department as being adequate, and they refer to the fact that 'onshore firefighting facilities have been upgraded, however, and a considerable amount of new equipment has been provided to the Fire Department. 1 Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the minister would undertake to ensure that . the contact is made immediately with the Government of Canada so that the minister can be updated. Would the minister indicate why is it that he is so out of touch with what is going on in Ottawa? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, if I were one-tenth as out of touch with what is going on in Ottawa as the hon. gentleman is with what is going on in Newfoundland, I would indeed have cause to worry. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker . No. 75 R4050

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Social Services . In the past couple of days the minister has stated that many of the conditions which were outlined in the report have been taken care of, and that many of these situations are no longer occurring; in other words, steps have been taken to correct some of the things which were mentioned in the report. I would like to ask the minister, Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the parents and relatives of children who are in these institutions, and on behalf of parents all over this Province, would he please, please, stand up and indicate to us and to the whole Province which of these practices are not now going on, which have been stopped? MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to use the next twenty minutes of this Question Period the way we did yesterday. I have answered honestly and truthfully all question put to me.

That question was as k e d o v e r and over and o v e r yesterday and I answered it. Now, there must be some rules in this House to -stop that kind of thing. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: L4051 December 6, 1985 Vol XL Order, please! A point of order, the hon. tl Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY : There is a very simple way the the minister can avoid answerir questions. He can resign . MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there j no point of order. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Gander . MR. BAKER: Mr.

Speaker, I have checked tr responses the minister has give and the minister, in fact, has no ever, ever outlined specificall which of these practices have bee stopped. He is refusing to do s again, and he should hang his hea in shame. I ask him one mor time: Which of these practice are not going on? He has no answered that question ever, a the record will show, Mr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! That question has already bee asked. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, let the that the minister answer that particular MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: record sho1 refuses t question.

The hon. the Minister of Socia ' Services. MR. BRETT: No. 75 R4051

us get the record straight, Speaker. I did not refuse to a.uer any questions. I answered !r'J question that was as ked of yesterday. And if I gave the 1e answer, it is because it is proper answer, and I will 1tin:ue to give that same answer lay. over and over and over tin. Now, if that is what the 1osition want, then that is 1e. But I will get up every 1e and I will say the same thing. B·AKER: ;upplementary, Mr. Speaker. SPEAKER: supplementary, the hon. the 1ber for Gander.

BAKER: Speaker, I realize that the lister has given an answer, and has given the same answer that has given here now today, 11 I re the answer, 11 and that is all Lt we have heard. I think this a serious matter. SPEAKER: ler, please! hon. member is now making a 'ech. BAKER: iisk the minister: In light of ! fact that he could really get tself off the hook by giving us specific answer to this !Stion, why does he not give us :pecific answer? SPEAKER: hon. the Minister of Social ·vices. BRETT: Speaker, this hon. member is on the hook.

Members of the 10si tion have the right to ask ' question they wish, and I have )52 December 6, 198S Vol XL the right to answer it if I wish, and to give the answer that I decide I am going to give. That is my right. MR. TULK : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK~ I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries in his capacity as the minister who is supposed to be responsible in this House for fishermen and plant workers. It concerns the so called Emergency Works Programme that is supposed to be in place for fishermen and plant workers in the Province.

We have seen the hang-ups and the delays. We have seen the hunger strikes that are going on in the Province, and we have seen that there have been all kinds of delays in getting those projects in place. People are still - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the member is now making a speech. MR.

TULK: In view of the fact that there are hunger strikes going on in this Province, the like of which has not been since 1949, and in view of the fact that we are being told that those Works Programmes are now going to be delayed another four to six weeks before anybody actually gets to work because the ·.I_ funds are not coming through from Ottawa - it is going to take some four to six weeks for the funds to get through - I want to ask the Minister of Fisheries, who is responsible for fishermen and fish plant workers in the Province, if indeed he will see that there is a No. 7S R40S2

sense of urgency - the mechanism is already in place - put into taking care of what has been an emergency situation for the past four or five months? MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister of Fisheries . MR . RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, this whole programme was put tog e the r with a s e n s e of emergency and has been acted on ever since then with a sense of em :ergency. I mean, the hon. gentleman cannot have it both ways, Mr. Speaker. There have been 5, 000 jobs, as I understand it, created already in this Province through the Fisheries Response Programme.

My colleague, the Minister of Career Development and Advance Studies (Mr. Power) and I and this government worked ~ery hard to put that programme to~ether. Obviously there are going to be some delays with it, but: we are very pleased with the ~>~Jay the programme is working and ~ will do our best to ensure that every job is created as quickly as possible despite the objections of the hon . gentlemen, Mr. Speaker. MR. TULK : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . M'R ' .. SPEAKER: A supplementary, member for Fogo . M'~.

TULK: the hon. the Five thousand jobs created and yet there is not a single person in this Province working today on that emergency programme. How does the minister explain that? We have hunger strike after hunger strike. PREMIER PECKFORD : ~ point of order, Mr. Speaker . ll...-410 ·53 December 6, 1985 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. t; Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the member for Fogo getting up and giving erroneo1 information. As I understand from the Minister of Care( Development and Advanced StudiE (Mr. Power), many of those 5,0( jobs have already started? MR. FLIGHT: How many?

PREMIER PECKFORD: Five thousand jobs have bee approved for 91 projects, so yc have hundreds and hundreds of jot already created. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: That is not a point of order! H is making ~ speech, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: So let the member for Fogo tel the truth when he gets up to ask question. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: That is not a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I ask the hon member for Fortune-Hermitage (Mr Simmons) to restrain himself. will decide whether it is a pain · of order. MR.

SIMMONS: I will undertake myself if you treat No. 75 to his res trait spuriou~ R4053

Lnts of order the way you treat spurious points of order. ~r only ruling now can be that lt was not a point of order. tt is your ruling. Go give it. ~E HON. MEMBERS: 1e him. SPEAKER: hon. the member for Fogo. TULK: Speaker, have ·you ruled on the Lnt of order? I am not speaking the point of order. SPEAKER: hon. the ·tune-Hermitage ler. SIMMONS: member on a point ·ise on a point of privilege. for of Speaker, as a member of the Jse I think ~E HON. MEMBERS: oh! SPEAKER: ier, please!

SIMMONS: a member of the House, Mr. !ak er, I think I am entitled to ' that you rule on the Premier•s Lnt of order which you did not SIMMS: J rose on a point of privilege. 1t is not a privilege, that is a lnt of nonsense. SPEAKER: the point of order raised by hon. the Premier, there was no lnt of order. · 1E HON. MEMBERS: lr, hear! )54 December 6, 1985 Vol XL MR. BARRY: The member for Fortune-Hermitage is vindicated. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo . MR . TULK: I want to point out to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Rideout) that even though the Premier, the Minister of Manpower and Career Development and whatever else they have thrown in that bucket, have stated that 5, 000 jobs have been created, there are few if any people working. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Nobody. MR. TULK: They are not working. There is no work going on in this Province, Mr. Speaker. So I would ask the Minister of Fisheries, once again, as a person who I believe is not solely interested in playing politics, who perhaps has some interest in the fishermen and fish plant workers of this Province, will he move to try to get the Minister of Manpower (Mr.

Power) the Premier, and his federal colleagues in Ottawa to have some money put into place so that those people can go to work on the projects that have supposedly been approved? Will he move on that? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fish~ries. MR. RIDEOUT: Sooky baby, Mr. Speaker! There are sixty-one people 'working in Bonavista, fifty or sixty in Branch, and twenty-nine went to 'tJJork in Fleur de Lys on Monday. No. 75 R4054

The han. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, s:.a'id nobody was working. The hon. g:entleman is a spoilsport, Mr. Speaker, because we got the programme going. It was a programmE! of this government, done with our colleagues in Ottawa, and it: is working very , very we 11 d:e 'spi te the objections of the hon. gentleman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: l+ear, hear! Mffi . TULK: ~ supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Mre. SPEAKER: ~ supplementary, member for Fogo. M'R'. TULK: the hon. the What a way to get the information out! What a way! S:0M'E HON. MEMBERS : Hle:cH'" • hear ! ~:. SPEAKER: Or,der. please! M'R. TULK: Thank you very much.

One hundred and forty people had to go on a hunger strike! Where are the 5,000 jobs? One hundred and forty p;eople working in the Province t-.ha .t is what we have been told - IJJh'o · had to go on a hunger strike ta get their jobs. S:'(l)M'E HON. MEMBERS: O:t:T, oh! l'tR . TULK: I\I(D'W, I as k the minister to stand ii..nr his place and confess that the ~nister of Manpower misled this lt'ouse when he said 5,000 jobs had heen created. Will he also show some sense of urgency in this matter and get some money into p.lace so that these people can go L..;Q:SS December 6, 1985 Vol XL to work? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, the bottom line j that there have already been 5,0C jobs created under the Spe cia Fisheries Response programme i this Province. Mr. Speaker, ther were ninety-one projects starte in this Province on Monday of thi week. Ninety-one people went t work in Carbonear on Monday o last week, and sixty-one i Bonavista. The hon. gentlema gets up, Mr. Speaker, and says n jobs were created. Mr. Speaker the hon. gentleman is misleadin the House, and I would suggest h is probably doing it deliberatel so he can get a headline in th Weekend Telegram. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The hon. the member for Port d' Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, my question is fo1 the Minister of Career Developmen · (Mr. Power). I ask the ministe1 to take his seat. Mr. Speaker. My question, Mr. Speaker, is ver! simple. I would like to ask thE Minister of Career Development anc Advanced Studies: Has he and hi~ family enough money to seE themselves through thi~ Christmas? If he did not, wha1 kind of a position would he be in? SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. 75 R4055

\r' " hear! EfFORD: u.pplementary, Mr. Speaker. SPEAKER: hon . the member for Port de VE !'. OTIENHEIMER: Speaker, on a point of order . S:PEAKER: hon. the Minister of e>r.·governmental .nt . of order. Affairs, on a OTTENHEIMER: iously the hon. gentleman ~ight to ask a question r Honour to recognize him, hrrically speaking there is p]ementary because, as nding Orders will show, ·plementary arises out of wer given by a minister. EFFORD: Speaker, a new question. SPEAKER: has and but no the a the recognize the hon. member on a I: question.

EFFORD: Speaker, I am amazed at the ~r that is displayed on the 1er side about such a serious . n g . Now, I as k e d that for a :d ial reason, because the dster of Career Development and '·anced Studies just stated that the people are working. SPEAKER: ler, please! non. member is starting to ~e a speech. EFFORD : .1, Mr. Speaker, the committees ~ort de Grave and Cupids got a l36 December 6, 1985 Vol· XL phone call yesterday saying that they will have to wait another four to six weeks before they receive any money . Now I want to know what those people are supposed to do for the next four weeks?

What are they supposed to live on, since the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies said that all of those people have money to start their projects? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, here are the facts as they pertain to job creation in Newfoundland. In the last six or seven months we have put in over $7.5 million for the Summer programme, the job emergency response for fishermen, and the Jobs Strategy programme. We have put $7.5 million into those projects. MR. EFFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR .

SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon . the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: What about the people of Cupids and Port de Graue who received phone calls saying that they will not receive money for the next four to six weeks? That is the question I asked; that is the question I want answered. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of order. The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. No. 75 R4056

MR:. POWER: Mr. Speaker, that poor member has trouble enough doing up questions, so I do not want him to start doing up answers, too. I will do the answer based on the facts in NewFoundland. There have been 5, 00:0 jobs approved in the Canadian Jobs Strategy programmes and ninety-one of those projects started on Monday or had full approvals from· government. If you have full approval from government, you have your money. In some places the Fishermen's Committees or the municipal authorities, whoever applied for the project, may be longer in starting a project.

But this gouernment can only make money available and the federal government can only make money available. The federal government makes money available, it is there, the projects can start and they can begin to receive money. There is no need for a four week de .lay. If there is a problem with a certain committee, then all the member has to do is follow the regular route of making sure that the project gets done as quickly as possible. There is a mechanism in place, Mr. Speaker, to do that. There are 5,000 jobs created so far.

We still have $17 million or $18 million to spend to create another 6,000 or 7,000 jobs for part of Newfoundland that need it . We are doing it as quickly as possible. The Jobs Strategy programmes that are in place this year are in place as early, if not earlier than they have ever been. SOME HON. MEMBER~ ~ Hear , hear! MR. EFF ORD : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member L4057 December 6, 1985 Vol XL for Port de Grave . MR. EFFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to a: the Minister of Career Dev e lopme1 and Advanced Studies what I expects from these committee~ like the one in Cupids, whi• received a phone call yesterdc saying if they wanted money to ~ to the bank and borrow it, ar when they went to the bank tt bank manager said, yes, they wou: get the money if they mortgage their houses. Would the ministE explain how an unincorporate community, a bunch of fishermer can be responsible for $50,000 c $60,000 at a bank? MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Caree Development and Advanced Studies. MR.

POWER : As long as this government and th Government of Canada gives ful approvals for the projects, ther is no reason why the project cannot go ahead. If the membe was really serious, if the membe was interested in serving hi district well, and has a proble with a committee getting a projec started when they have alread received approvals, if the mmembe were really interested in servin his district properly then h would bring it to the department He would get the thing moving th way it should be done. He s impl wants to get a little bit o attention for the headlines i The Weekend. That is all i is.

Programmes are in place This government can only mak money available, only giv approvals, and we cannot go ou and individually start projects i every community. No. 75 R4057

FUREY: Sp ,eaker. SPEAKER: hon. the member for St. Barbe. FU 'REY: Speaker I to the same lister . It is quite a ·ference~ Sir, to announce a 'je ,ct and to have a project t rt:ed . The r e i s qui t e a 'Ference. I have had many phone .ls from my particular district I I they are very worried and they ! ~ery hungry. The ~roblem, Mr. !aker, is with contracts. The •tract has to go from Corner to ·k to the sponsor I the sponsor t.o s i g n it , s end it b a c k to ·ner Brook, Corner Brook sends to St. John 1 s I St.

John 1 s 1loyment Development Branch 1ds it to Supply and Services, ,pJ.y and Services sends it back Enwployment Development, back to • ne r B roo k I b a c k to the msors~ so it is four weeks :ore cash is in people 1 s hands. ' what is this government going do about that before Christmas? 'E HON. MEMBERS: tr, hear! SPEAKER : ler, please! SIMMS: , did the rest of the projects trt? POWER: Speaker . SPEAKER: hon. the Minister of Career relopment and Advanced Studies. POWER: Speaker, there are projects tt began on Monday. They have ~ approvals from government. )58 December 6, 1985 Vol XL MR.

FUREY: They have no money . MR. POWER: This government have done everything that is humanly possible that could be done to get those projects off the ground as quickly as possible, earlier this year than any other year, Mr . Speaker. We cannot as a government department go out into individual communities and decide whether a project starts at 8:00 o 1 clock on Monday morning or 8:00 o 1 clock on Tuesday morning. That is not the role of the provincial government. We have made the money available. They can start the projects. There is simply no reason, Mr.

Speaker, why delays of that nature should have to be tolerated by anybody. MR. FUREY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han . member for St . Barbe. MR . FUREY: Could the minister tell me if that is why I am getting phone calls from the people in Cow Head, those thirty fish plant workers, women who are poor and have nothing, threatening to be part of this human chain of hunger strikes, because when they go to the bank the bank will not give them an overdraft on a verbal contract? Mr. Speaker, they will not give them a loan because who will sign and be liable for $100,000 or $60,000?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Sit down! Sit down! No . 75 R40S8

M'R . SPEAKER: The han. member is making a s·p 'eech. In between he asked one short question, and then carried on with his speech. I ask him now to pose his supplementary. M'R. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, announced a $9. 5 two months ago. m0ney out there, liTirn will this e:mergency money tlntil the other shows up? S~E HON. MEMBERS: this minister million programme Now , there i s no and I want to as·k Province supply to those people emergency money The money is there. there. The money is 1!1JR. SIMMS ; Can you see them in government? "R. RIDEOUT: You have to work for a week before ~ou get paid for a week. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker. MR . SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr . Speaker , it seems with everything that happens in the Province, members opposite want to jump on it, if they think it is a bandwagon going in the right direction. There has been -a very significant job creation programme in this .. Pro v in c e . I t i s in p 1 a c e , it i s ·I ready. We had an emergency in the fishery and this government responded to that emergency with compassion and understanding. We have created 5,000 jobs in the Province, up to last week, with many more jobs to come.

If there L4059 December 6, 1985 Vol XL have been delays in the case individual committees which cannt get a project started, everyo1 knows we have speeded them every way we possibly can. To P' in place another emergency fund , cover the emergency is absolute: unnecessary. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question fc the Minister of Career Developmer and Advanced Studies as well.

T~ minister is probably aware the seventeen fish plant workers i Markland, who worked at the FF plant in South Dildo, wer unsuccessful in getting thei project approved. Let me ask tr minister, is all of that $9. million used up? If it is, i there going to be some more mone put into that so that committee 1 ike the one at Markland can al s get funding? Because, Mr Speaker, the member in Ottawa Captain Johnson, is on record a telling them that they are not i a fishing area. Whitbourne, th first inland town in thi Province, is in a fishing area How can that be?

What can th minister do to rectify th situation in Markland? MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Caree Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: again, it is ver: Mr. Speaker, difficult. including question, All persons here the member who as ked tht have some experience i1 No. 75 R4059

the Legislature and acting as a district member. It is impossible for a minister to be able to say on very precise, specific, one-community related projects that something is going to be done. It is impossible to know about each individual community. Did they apply for a project in Whitbourne? MR. CALLAN: Yes. MR. POWER: Under the Job Response or under the Jobs Development programme? MR. CALLAN: Yes . MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, all I can say is that if a member has a problem with a project, then obviously we can react to it.

I was not aware that there were seventeen fishermen who fished out of Dildo but IJappen to live in Whitbourne - MR. CALLAN: Fish plant workers. MR. POWER: who were not allowed to apply for a project. If they have an application in, then we will be glad to look at it to see if it can be done. Again, Mr. Speaker, we have tried to accommodate every single community that has a problem. But, again, it is impossible for me to respond to individual problems like that in the House. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. L4060 December 6, 198S Vol XL MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, in reference to the specific concern raised by my colleagues from Port de Grave (Mr. Efford) and St. Barbe (Mr. Furey), I say to the minister that despite the rhetoric or amidst the rhetoric there is a concern here. It is a very real concern. A number of people know they have appro v a 1 . They k now i t u e r b a 11 y , they have had phone calls. They cannot trigger the project until they get the contract signed. He will know that.

Is it possible, as the minister will know since he has the documentation on his desk, that the project has been approved, the sponsor has been informed, and to expedite the beginning of the project, for the minister to give maybe a telegram, something on paper, to the sponsors? Because he will know that short of something on paper the banks will not authorize interim financing to allow the project to begin, and those sponsors themselves cannot be expected to put up their own personal assets, houses and so on.

Will he undertake to put something in writing to those sponsors as an interim measure to get the thing expedited? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the . Minister of Career Develo~ment and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, it is quite easy to do. We have tried to speed up the programmes as best we could. That is why they have been coming out, I guess, in batches rather than waiting for all of the programmes to be announced in one big announcement where you could announce every single project together. We have been announcing them exactly as they are approved, as they come to my desk and I sign No. 7S R4060

t~em and they go to Miss MacDonald and she signs them . What happens is an MP or an MHA will notify someone that their project is approved. They will do that verbally, usually over the phone, and the minute that that happens, or even before that happens , there s h ou 1 d be a 1 e t t e r or a t e 1 ex on the way from Miss MacDonald 1 s oFFice giving final approval for their project. The two things go together. Just because an MP calls verbally means that immediately behind that there should be a letter coming and qi~ing formal approval.

So there ~eally is no need · for this go~ernment to get involved in some kind of an emergency sense. There really is no need. The approvals should be there in a matter of hours after the announcement is made. MIR .. W • C A R T E R : Mr . Speaker . MIL SPEA KE R: The han. the member for Tw±llingate . MR. W. CARTER: My question is to the Minister of Career Development and Advanced S tu .d i e s . I t i s a 1 on g t he 1 i n e s of the one asked by my colleague from Fo.r.-tune - Hermitage and it has to do with the Jobs · Strategy programme.

For example, we all know that the $9.S million made a~ailable for the Emergency R'es.ponse programme is going to be UJe~ry much inadequate. In fact, it f.s probably about half enough to cow~r the number of projects applied for. What action will the m'i.rtdster take to ensure that the .To. ,ltl:s: Strategy programme is pushed ahead, is made available to the peoP,le? A lot of fishermen will not be able to get assistance ur.tder the Emergency Response t.4.()61 December 6, 1985 Vol XL programme, so, what happens those fishermen?

Will t minister then make arrangement maybe, whereby they can quali for assistance under the Jo Strategy programme? If so, wh can we expect some action on th, programme? MR. SPEAKER: is just time for a shot from the hon . Minister ( Development and Adva ncE There answer Career Studies. MR. POWER : My regular short answer, Mt Speaker, is basically we have dot just that . We have I gue~ something like $17 million wort of requests for the $9.5 millie funding that we had. That $9. million worth of funding create just about 4,000 fishermen ar fish plant worker jobs in thj Province. Obviously it was nc adequate.

What we have done j that we have directed our staff t accept the exact same applicatior put it into the Jobs Strate~ fund, and over that $35 millie Jobs Strategy, hopefully we wil be able to accommodate all c those persons who have that need fishermen and others in tb Province. MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions ha elapsed. MR. BARRY: A point of order, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han . th Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: I would like to point out to th Premier there is a problem here The minister, I know, has a lot o work to do and there are a lot o No. 7S R4061

..! these projects that he may not be directly familiar with, but Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out to the Premier that there is a cash flow problem. We know projects have been approved but there are communities and there are groups which do not have the documentation to satisfy banks. Now may be legally the minister is correct. Maybe once the minister • s letter of approval has gone out, legally that should be sufficient. But the reality is that the banks, the financial institutions, are not accepting this as adequate security for these communities obtaining funds.

Would the Premier take a look at whether in fact there is a need for some sort of assurance to be sent out? I am sure it need only be a form letter that could be signed in half an hour by the minister and sent out in order to give assurances that will permit cash to start flowing before Christmas to these people? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I do not think that was quite a point of order. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, if I were like some of the members opposite I would just get up and, on a technical point under the Standing Orders, say to the Leader of the Opposition that that is not a point and forget all about it, but I will not do that, I will try to respond. MR. BARRY: We will give you leave to speak. PREMIER PECKFORD: You asked the question. I am not going to need leave to speak. We gave you leave to get up on a point of order, whatever, and I am not going to get up on leave by L4062 December 6, 1985 Vol XL you. I will get up to answer your question. MR.

BARRY: The Speaker ruled there was no point of order, but we would like to hear what you have to say. PREMIER PECKFORD: You have asked a question and I want to answer it even though I do not have to. The long and short of it is if the member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford), or the member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter) or the member for St. Barbe (Mr._ Furey) or any member has a specific problem as it relates to this programme, then I would suggest to them to go down to the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power) before this day is out - MR. BARRY: It is Province-wide.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Just one second! Can I finish the answer? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: You try to answer the question and be responsible and sympathetic to what members of the Opposition are saying, and all you get is an interruption. Now, then, if by going down to the minister and his people this afternoon, the minister sees that it is a Province-wide problem which crops up in Port de Grave, and St. Barbe, and Twillingate and so on, then we will take a look at it.

I am not convinced that it is, but I would like to see, instead of abusing Question Period, members opposite go down to the minister•s No. 75 R4062

·~ -~.:~=~--··- oFFice, sit down, say, 1Here is a . prablem here in St. Barbe, and here is a problem here, they are very common - in other words, the approvals are not being given - so that then we can act on it. But we are no t go i n g to a c t o n i t if , in fact, there are individual, unique problems which are not commonplace all around the Province. If they are, we will do something about it. M:R'. BARRY: It is in your own district. Pi~IER PECKFORD: It is not in my own district. MR'. BARRY: It is in your own district. PREMIER PECKFORD: It is not. It is not. ~R . SPEAKER: Order. please! Order, please!

Tlh :e·re are interruptions from both sides. It is impossible to carry on unless we can carry on normally. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh., oht MR. SPEAKER: Or.-der. please! At this stage I would like to a~knowledge representation from the Federation of Municipalities a~d welcome to the gallaries their President, Bill Dickson, their !E)(.ecutive Director, Doug Smith, an.cl! their Secretary, Woodrow I'IRu.uJ!.let:t. Also with them is Mayor J IC!Ir'OIIIIDe Wa 1 S h . S~E ~ON. MEMBERS: Hear~ hear! L4106l December 6. 1985 Vol XL Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees DR. TWOMEY: Mr. Speaker . MR .

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. DR. TWOMEY : Medico wish t from t~ Car endir In accordance with the Care Insurance Act, I table the annual report Newfoundland Medical Commission for the year March 31, 1985. Petitions MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the member for Burg eo Bay d1Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I hav .e petition from 9 5 people who 1 iv in Burgeo in the area known a Smalls Island. I will read th prayer of the petition. It says 1Whereas Smalls Island has population of thirty families; an ·

whereas the bridge leading to thi Island is a bailey type which ha been in use for thirty year; an1

whereas this bridge is in such state of disrepair that it is n1 longer safe for vehicular traffic and

whereas the provision of water supp1y, fuel oil anc delivery of all goods and service~ to the Island, as well as th1 transportation of the needs of thE residents, is dependent on thai bridge, we, the residents o1 Smalls Island, petition thE Department of Transportation t< effect repairs to this bridgE No. 75 R4063

imm .ediately, before loss of lives o•r' property result from vehicles brwaking through this bridge.' M'r· .. S pea k e r , I wo u 1 d 1 i k e to s pea k to that petition. First of all, I hav .:e here a copy of a letter that wa~s ; sent to the Minister of Transportation on November 21. There are two paragraphs I would 1 i.ke to read before I start. 11 Your department carried out an engineering study on this bridge on April 17 and 18, 1985.

The s tu.dy, contained in your de 'F,):artment' s report 'Bridge to Sm<i'll s Is land, Bridge Site 3-059 • , g·i .v,es several recommendations with re-gards to load limit, tightening up the braces, inspection by a diver, and an annual inspection should be made. 11 Co ;uncil is appreciative of this rep>Ort. However, there is still great concern over the safety fa ·ctor of this bridge and another i~spection is warranted immediately. The immediate question Council would like to ha·ve answered is: Is the bridge sare for snow-clearing equipment, as Winter is close upon us?

If it is not safe, what assistance your department will give us financially to have this problem corrected? Council feels that si~ce the bridge was constructed b;y the Department of Transportation the department should be responsible for mad!.ntenance of same. 11 Mr ·.. Speaker, this inspection was done, as the letter to the m:± ni s t e r s a y s , on Apr i 1 1 7 and 18.. The recommendations at that time were a load limit of not more than 15 tons be put on it and that the top be replaced. The first thing was very easy to do, because you could put a sign up saying that the load limit is 15 tons.

L4!0:64 December 6, 1985 Vol XL But the second thing, the recommendation that the top be replaced was a little more serious because that involved money. The Transportation Department, at that time, refused to do the necessary repairs. The Town of Burg eo, as I pointed out to the Minister of Municipal Affairs sometime ago, had applied and was promised a guaranteed loan of $100,000 to solve a water supply problem that has been in that town since its inception. The money that had been raised through tax revenues had to go to try and correct the water problem. The Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr.

Doyle) agreed that in most towns, outside of the lucky ones like Gander and Grand Falls that had a water supply given them, the revenues that they raised from local taxes are about enough to maintain a water system.

In other words, what the Town Council and what the residents of Smalls Island are saying is that they are now living on an isiand in the middle of Burgeo Harbour, a part of the Town of Burgeo, and pretty soon they are going to have to go back to getting their by boat the same as they had to do thirty years ago, before the bailey bridge was put in, in another happier time in Newfoundland when we had a government that was caring about the people who lived on Smalls Island.

In view of the fact that their application for a grant was turned down by the Department of Municipal Affairs and that the Department of Transportation has refused to do the repairs to this bridge, they are making an appeal based on concern for the safety of No. 75 R4064

the people who live there. Also, with Winter coming they are afraid to take oil trucks over there to supply the necessary oil that they need to heat their homes through the Winter. Also, the Burg eo Town Council is afraid to send their snowploughs over that unless there are repairs done. The immediate thing they would like to have is for the Department of Transportation to go and do a survey to recommend that 1 yes, it is okay for the ploughs and oil trucks to go over it. 1 They want them to say it is safe to do it now.

The town dQes not have the money, so they are appealing to the Minister of Transportation to enact some sort of help in order that the people may carry on in the lifestyle that they have become accustomed to over the thirty years since the bailey bridge was put in place. I think it is well known that the bailey bridge has to be maintained within a period of ten to fifteen y ears , o the rwi s e , it i s u n s a f e . I ask the minister for his response on that. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, in response to the petition pres en ted by the hon. member, I would just like to say that, obviously, in his

preamble and his discussion about the petition, there are a number of correspondences from the department. The department has, in fact , in the past , as was indicated, carried out an inspection and made some L4065 December 6, 1985 Vol XL recommendations relative to the bridge and what would have to be to the tot structure of t, repairs and th , made.

As I understand it, as the end 1 his comments, he asked whether 1 not the department would enga1 the services of one of our sta1 to go down and do an assessme1 and indicate to the municipali i just what the structuri significance or deterioration < the bridge was and what necessat repairs would have to be made. I will certainly undertake to ha\ that particular activity carriE out and report back to the to~ when the results of the particular survey are done . MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fortu ne Hermitage. MR.

SIMMONS: I just want to take a moment t support the petition so abl presented by my colleague fc Burgee - Bay d 1 Espoir (Mr Gilbert) . The bridge connectir Smalls Island to another littl island, known locally as Debbie' Island, is a bridge that I kno very well. Looking · at th petition before my colleagu tabled it would indicate to m that just about everybody on tha island signed that petitio because it is their lifeline an it is their link to th community. It is a part of Burge where, if the bridge were cut off it would be very difficult to ge access by boat.

It is easy i normal times to get from th island to the mainland by boa but, of course, in stormy weathe it would not be. So the bridge i No. 75 R4065

::. -. ---- . -= ---=""- -- their lifeline in terms of rn:e 'd i c a 1, i n terms of e d u cation , i n terms of everything, it is their lifeline to the community and to the Province. The bridge, as the petition notes, was put there about thirty years ago . It is a bailey type bridge. It is the kind of bridge that requires ongoing maintenance. I think, Mr . o:f" a sad maintenance De:f:)artment of I\JiiR. DAWE: t:x .cuse me, D:e par tme n t (inaudible). MR.

SIMMONS: Speaker, it is a commentary on procedures of Transportation - bit the the it of is not the Transportation It was put there by the Department of Transportation. It is within the municipality of Burgeo. Has it been signed over? Has the council taken responsibility for it? MR. DAWE: It has been responsible for years. MR. SIMMONS: Taken formal responsibility for it? MR.. DAWE: Ves. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I am quite familiar 11.1i th the bridge. I know where it is. It is within the municipality of Burgeo.

It was put there by tne Department of Transportation a number of years ago, as the mi n i s t e r j u s t 1 earned . The beauty of new information. I acknowledge it is new information for me, too, but the difference between him and me is that I do not mind acknowledging it. L4-066 December 6, 1985 Vol XL Mr.

Speaker, I was about to say, before the minister got prematurely defensive, it is a sad commentary on the maintenance procedures of the Department of Transportation that roads, for example, like the Burg eo road, which is also a concern of these people, built by federal Liberal dollars, cannot even be maintained. One wonders if this is government by petition, that you have got to be petitioned on every matter, whether it is to do a favour to a council, to maintain a road or to provide snow clearing equipment.

It is a sad commentary oh the way government is run in this Province, the whole crisis management approach of government. You do nothing until you are clobbered over the head, until you get a petition from people. Mr. Speaker, it must be just comforting for the people of Smalls Island to know that the great Minister of Transportation, this great government, would condescend to do them a favQur. How nice, to do them a favour! Is that not nice of them? I mean, should we all not send them two Christmas cards for condescending to do those plebs down there a favour by engineering their bridge? MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. member for Bonavista South. MR. MORGAN: With all due respect, the hon. gentleman is abusing the rules of the House . In standing up to support a petition, he is sparking a major debate by attacking the government. Let us be fair, he is No. 75 R4066

0wt of order. I'IR<.. SIMMONS : Mr.' .. Speaker, to the point of order. Mlf. SPEAKER: To: the point of order, the hon . t:h-e! m~ ·mber for Fortune-Hermitage. MR .. SIMMONS: M'r.'. Speaker, to the point of o.:r'Cie :r·. Just let me sa-y to the member· for Bonavista South that t.hre· A-ssistant Deputy Speakership h·a~s b:een filled. ~ .. SPEAKER: TOJ t.hat point of order, there is rra> RD®fnt of order. The> h>on. · e>Ia .p-sed. member • s time has a1most He has another minute. ~. SIMMONS : ~·.

Speaker, I want to support the pli'\"Ci':fer of the petition and I want ta, tell m-y friend from Bonavi s ta S(!lu:tl!l (Mr. Morgan) that while we ma:de· no hard and fast decisions, we: l!.l:nderstand that there are some e•tr~ red chairs in other parts of th~ Chamber than where he sits nowi.. He should not rush in and do a;J:] that coaxing up to people for p·o s,f.t.:ions that are al read 'Y fi 11 ed, hoe· should not be so trigger hatp 'PJ.!f.

I support the prayer of the pe~tition and I would submit to the Mimdi.ster of Transportation it is n-o>t.: enough to do favours for those p;ea.;p: ·le, they have a need which n:eedls to be addressed. A 1 though it falls within municipal j;uilrii.sdiction, that municipal i toy ~~~li require some government ~ss£stance in order to address the p;r,-a:b. •lem which is immediate. Orders of the Day L4106i7 December 6, 1985 Vol XL MR. MARSHALL: Bill No. 4-6. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. TULK: Mr . Speaker, on a point of order . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order the hon. the member for Fogo. MR.

TULK: I would have hoped that the membe for St. John's North (J. Carter had been in his seat this morning but there is a matter before th~ House which is not being deal with . I am referring, of course to the question as to whether th privileges of the member fa Bonavista South has been breached. I want to say this to th Government House Leader. Th Opposition has indicated to th Chairman of the Committee, th member for ·st. John • s North, on number of occasions that we · ar ready to meet, to write tha report, or at least to seek consensus report. For some reaso or other the member for St.

John' North seems to be trying to auoi the issue. I suspect that th member for St. John • s North want this to hang out because of hi biases against the member fo Bonavista South and because h wants to keep this our of th limelight. He does not want report to come in ·that may not b· as favour a b 1 e as he wo u 1 d 1 i k e i perhaps cutting the legs out fro1 under a member of this House That may very well be the cas• but, Mr. Speaker, I would ask th• Government House (Mr. Marshall) b see that the member for St. John'~ North - MR. SPEAKER: No. 75 R4-067

O!r'der, thlis is :iii±:. is a iif there please! I do not think a point of order, I think point of clarification is such a point. MR' .. TULK: It is a matter of House privileges. MR?.. S P E A K E R : House Leader called I am prepared to as clarification. Th.e: hon. the the orders. ac:c::ept that f!IF~. TU L K : I am on a point of order, Mr. S~aker, because we are talking aJtre;ut the privileges of this House om a ruling that should take place. M'R'.

SPEAKER: You got up on a point You are speaking to a or~er and there does not b'e' any point of order. to me as though the hon. seeking clarification parti-cular issue. Jlil:R'. TULK: of order. point of appear to It looks member is on a N:o. We accept the Orders of the Oa;y;:, no problem. What I am doing is asking the Government House Le·ader, as the person who is responsiqle for seeing what the order of business is and that things are done with government, indeed for this House, to see that th~ member for St.

John•s North ca]ls a meeting of that Committee to deal with the issue at hand, and not to allow him to sit in his seat day after day and this House go on and on and on and on, Forever and a day, without that question being resolved one way or the other. It should be resolved, because it is a matter of the privileges of this House. It should not be left hanging and the member for St. John 1 s North should not be allowed to keep it hanging, unless he is doing it with the consent of people on that side, L4068 December 6, 1985 Vol XL and I do not believe that for a minute. I cannot believe that that is the case .

I wo u 1 d as k the Government House Leader to see that the member for St. John•s North is put in his place and that he does his job. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: My only comment to that is that I am sure the member for St. John • s North, like all members, is quite capable of discharging the duties that have been entrusted to him. MR. TULK: Well, he has not been doing it. MR. MARSHALL: I am also quite sure that member for St. John•s North carry out his duties and not politics with the issue, as hon. gentleman is doing. MR.

TULK: He is playing politics. To point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: the will play the that I have already said there was no point of order. MR. TULK: A new point of order, Mr. Speaker. I want to tell the hon. gentleman that on this side we are more interested in preserving the privileges of this Parliament than in carrying on his nasty kind of comments and the nasty kind of reaction that we are getting from him. This is a very important question No. 75 R4-068

t.Uhi ch has to be answered by this Committee. The member for St. John's North is apparently blocking it, and I am asking him to see that the situation is cleared up. Do it. boy, you are in parliament . M.R . S P E A K E R : Order, please! Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice (Ms. Verge) to introduce a bill, 11

An Act To Amend The Queen • s Counsel Act 11 , carried. (Bill No. 4-6). On motion, Bill No. 46 First time, ordered read time, presently , by leave. MR. MARSHALL: read a a second Now. these are third readings. Mr. Speaker, I want hon. gentlemen to know this is the proceeding: A ~ill is passed, it goes though second reading, Committee and tnird reading. Now, we are going into third reading. M·R. TULK: Oh t ~ MR. MARSHALL: Order 2, Bill No . 8 . MR. TULK: Good! He finally got something straight. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! On motion, the following bills ~re read a third time: A bill, 11

An Act To Amend The Youth Aduisory Council Act 11 • (Bill No. 8). A bill, 11 An Department Of Act To Amend The Finance Act 11 • (Bill l4()69 December 6, 1985 Vol XL No. 56) . A bill, 11

An Act To Amend Tl Liquor Corporation Act, 1973 (BillNo. 55). A bill, 11

An Act To Amend Tl Financial Corporations Capital T< Act, 1983 11 • (Bill No, 37). A bill, 11

An Act To Style Department Of Development As Department Of Development Tourism 11 • (Bill No. 9). Tl Tl At On motion, that the House res ol~ itself into Committee of the WhoJ to consider certain bills, Mr Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole MR. BARRY: • Bill 1 , could you call Order before Order 7, because we ha~ the amendment · on the Workers Compensation Act and we have to s downstairs and dig it UF Otherwise, you just have to dela the thing. MR. MARSHALL: All right, we will call Order No 8. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): Order! A bill, 11

An Act To Amend The Da Care And Homemaker Services Act 11 (BillNo. 18). On motion, clauses 1 through 3 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall clause 4 carry? MR. BARRY: Just on clause 4, would the minister No. 75 Mr. Chairman indicate th R4069

thinking behind this? If authority has been given to the Board, why take it from the Board and g i v e i t to the m i n i s t e r? Where is the minister? MR. BRETT: I am here . MR. BARRY: We are on your Day Care and Homemaker Services Act and the amendment to Clause 4 would remove from the Board the authority to make regulations and would vest that authority to make regulations in the Minister of Social Services ( Mr . B r e t t ) . What is the t hi n k i n g behind taking it from the Board and giving it to the minister of Social Services? Why was it with the Board in the first place?

Normally the regulations would be made by the minister. We do not find it strange that the change is being made, but why was it given to the Board in the first place, and why the change of thought? MR. BRETT: Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: It is a very valid question, Mr. Chairman, and I am afraid I cannot tell the han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) ·why it was vested in the Board in the first instance. Obviously, as the han. gentleman says, it should be the minister who would make the regulations, so we are changing it.

It does not, of course, take away from the Board the opportunity to make recommendations to the minister or to the department. I do not know why it was like that in the first place. Obviously, you will not L4070 December 6, 1985 Vol XL find that in any other department where a board would have the authority to make the regulations. I do not know why it was there in the first place, but it was incorrect and this is simply a matter of correcting it. The hon. member realizes, of course, that the Board will still be in a position to make recommendations. On motion, Clause 4, carried .

Motion, that the Committee report having · passed the bill without amendment, carried. A bill, "An Act Respecting The Preservation Of The Historic Resources Of The Province" . ( Bi 11 No. 7). On motion, Clause 1 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause 2-carry? MR. BARRY : Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Why do we not contemplate some system of bringing in an incentive, as the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) suggested? I guess the example I raised of the astrolabe is the one that brought it home most obviously.

In the astrolabe case, I think the gentleman in question had the thing bouncing around in the back of his pick-up true k for a goodly period of time before he finally got an assessment of the historical significance and the value of the artifact. No. 75 R4070

Why do we not have some system in p:lace which encourages divers, or <Y·1thers, not just those involved in ·· o-ffshore finds but onshore finds a.s.; w.ell, to bring these matters to d~partmental officials? Why not put in place some form of r~cognition, possibly a system s.twch as they have under the f'ederal act. I hring to the attention of the m±nister the fact that this has cmne up. He might have noticed it was. reported in , I think , The ~obe and Mail a couple of days ao~Or that an individual found certain, not archeological, but paleontology finds.

A Canadian dts cov-ered possibly the oldest k.r:rown remnant of the squid encased in ~ a fossil. He brought i-t down to the United States to a show and so 1ld it to a museum in the United States. It sold, I think, for a-round $3,000. He ended up being Fined when he got back to Canada F.GH' bringing that object out of C'.a,nada because it is something that should be in a museum in Canada.

Now, as far as I can gather, the gentleman did it in g,ood faith in that he was not aware that there was a procedure in place under federal legislation f·or getting an assessment of value and for giving the government the o~tion of purchasing. Should we rr10t have the same type of system l.ilirrder our legislation? Should we I<JXD :t have a system where there is a ID'(!) d y a v a i 1 a b 1 e to 1 o o k at an abject, whether it is found on l~nd or offshore, to assess its ualue and indicate whether there is any historical significance? Should not government then be put to the option of purchasing the ttem?

Should there not be some f'orm of objective arbitration for d.is putes if there is a dispute as to value? IL41071 December 6, 1985 Vol XL It may be that individuals are n< entitled to the full value c items found on wrecks, whatev~ about fossil finds, because ther is a long history under U British common law and statu-I law, and also under the laws < other nations. which recognizE originally the king had the rigr to receive all wrecks in hj kingdom.

And then, for a peric of time, there was a grec trafficking in those entitlement and the king would give out t~ right to collect wrecks t individuals, Dukes or Earls c commoners, who were prepared t pay a fee. You found that ther was great wealth to be obtaine from having the right to obtai the proceeds from wrecks . We have a carry-over with respec to salvage, a similar type o system. The right of the Crown t wrecks was more complete than th right entitlements with respect t salvage matters. So it may ver well be that individuals shoul not be entitled to receive th full value of items found o~ wreck.

I know government wil have financial constraints i terms of the money that can be pu up. I think we would all agre that it is not healthy to have situation where, even thoug individuals should not be prepare · to break .the law - an individua should be prepared to be a goo1 responsible citizen unfortunately, we all know tha· greed sometimes is a grea te l motivating factor than honour 01 respect or recognition. I thin ! that the minister could do well b look at putting such a system i1 place.

I do not know if such a syster exists for wrecks but there is for fossils, as we would gather fran this recent case that has come up, No. 75 R4071

where under federal legislation b:he •. value of a find is evaluated a·ncf then the Crown has an option, t-m · buy or let the individual sell to) t hi r d

part i e s , w he t h e r in the country or out. I think it would be , well worth it, Mr. Speaker, if the minister would look at that particular thought in terms of improving this legislation that is now before the House. M1R. CHAIRMAN : st.-a:Il Clause 3 carry? MR < .. MATTHEWS: M1T .. Speaker. M'W .. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: I!. would just like, Mr. Chairman, iE I could, to just react to the rremar k s and suggestions of the ho ·-n. the Leader of the O~position.

As I said very &~ncerely yesterday, I appreciate t.he comments as made by the three hen. members yesterday and this morning by the Leader of the Opposition. I think it has been a most useful exercise. I would certainly just like to tnform the hon. member that I will take his suggestion under ~uisement and go about doing some i.rrvestigation as to procedures tnat are in place and how this wltole act can be improved. I will ~artainly do that and deliberate a-nd consider it very seriously.

I wo ~uld just like to say to him that i£ he has any further suggestions orr any aspects of the bill that c.uw -ld be useful to us in its overall improvement, I would be mast receptive to receiving them sa that in the near future we can implement improvements if they iindeed would be improvements. So L.4KD '72 December 6, 1985 Vol XL I certainiy appreciate his remarks. MR. BARRY: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon . the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY : The other thing that should be mentioned, Mr.

Speaker, is that the minister and government is going to run into trouble with respect to merely designating buildings or sites as provincial historic sites and thereby preventing, for example, a person from building in the area or selling property. You are going to get into the same situation as a result of that Supreme Court of Canada case that I mentioned earlier with respect to the freezing of land. The minister is going to have to tie in this process of preserving historic sites with a system of making sure that individuals are not shafted in the use of their properties.

I mentioned yesterday the example of a stone barn in Brigus that was at one time about to fall down. There is an interesting property out in Portugal Cove that I know an individual has inherited, and I guess it is the oldest house in the Cove. I forget the name of the property now but it is quite an extensive property up behind the community, looking out towards Bell Island. For that type of building, there should be some incentives available to maintain it.

In many cases I what is done in other places is you see these areas tied in with commercial establishments, whether it be a little museum and a souvenir shop or whatever I but there has got to No. 75 R4072

b:e some mechanism from the d::e-pa :r.·tment for funds becoming a·uai.lable to keep these buildings itm a state of repair before they f:a,[U down. I think the owner of thi. .s: one had some problems financially in getting the neces ·sary money to keep a roof on the p.lace. Once the roof goes on a b ui 1 d i n g , t h e b u i 1 d i n g its e 1 f i s not going to last much longer. I would like to ask the minister t~ ) look very carefully at doing more than is being done now in temms ~f seeing money provided for t:h'e.~ me.intenance of buildings such a.s ~ tfudL s . Mre .. ~A ·TIHEWS: Mr ·· .. Chairman. 111rR?. ..

CHAI RMAN: Th ·e hon . the Minister of Culture, lf:e ·cr.-e·ation and Youth. MR. l!'llllTT HEWS: Mr · .. Chairman, again I would just I.iJ(<e: to thank the hon. member and t·eil him that we will certainly g i.v.·e ~ e r y s e rio u s con s ide ration to h~~ suggestions and any other than hre ' JJJight have for improvements to th-:e ~ bi 11 . On · motion, clauses (3) and (4), ca :rJ!"ied. M~ .. BARRY: l'!lfr ·. Chairman. lflfR! .. CHAIRMAN: Th ~e hon. the Leader of the Op ·F.Xos i ti on . M'R .. B)AR'RY: T'h':il.s; is an interesting one, this cl.a;lJilse (S).

I have written the mi rtiist.er a letter from a con-stituent on Bell Island who - and this was sometime ago so I can understand if the minister does not recall it - made a donation of L4Q:73 December 6, 1985 Vol XL certain property, I am not sure · it was to the Archives or to tl Newfoundland Museum and, as wi: happen from time to time, tl question arose as to whether tl individual was entitled to charitable deduction and, if S< how much. Does the ministE recall that? This individual we: completely ticked off by the ver low value that was placed upon t~ object that he donated, or t~ records.

I forget now exact] what it was. Has the ministe given any thought in ter·ms of H acquisition of gifts or bequest and making sure that there is c appropriate tax deduction? I knc the Minister of Finance (Dr Collins) will fight you tooth ar nail, hammer and tongs, he wil c 1 aw and he wi 11 s c rat c h , to k e e every copper of taxes that r can . It is going to be up to th minister to wage an unholy bat tl against the Grinch who stol Christmas, who is going to try Mr. Speaker, to keep the larges amount of taxes payable a possible. But the minister wil have a responsibility. .

Th greater the tax credit that he ca get for donors, the more donation the minister is going to se de 1 i v ered for the benefit of th people of the Province. That i one form of incentive, money i peoples • pockets to save on thei taxes, which will encourage the to donate family heirlooms tha are lying ·around, that might no otherwise be made available to th museums of the Province. So would ask the minister to loo very closely at this notion. On motion Clauses (

S) through ( 10 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause (11) carry? MR. BARRY: No. 75 R4073

Clause (11), Mr. Chairman. M'R~. CHAIRMAN: T~e han. the Leader of the o·p ;posi tion. MIL BARRY: That is the one that says that t.i t l e i s v e s ted i n H e r M a j e s t y . It . says, 1 No person shall sell, e:tc. 1 It seems that here there sl:11ould be some provision for compensation that would tie· into this particular clause. We will approve it for now, but it would be! on the understanding that the m±.mister would take a look at ge~ting a system in place for ca:mpensation. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause (11) carry? o~ motion Clause (11) carried. On motion Clauses (12) and (13) c~rried. M'~ .

CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause (14-) carry? MIL BARRY: Clause (14-), Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Op:fil<J ·Si tion. Mli .. BARRY: Leader of the W:hat is a provincial cultural pr@perty? Could the minister give U$ an example of what is contemplated with respect to a provincial cultural property? I think of the convent at Brigus, f~r example. Would that be cultural property or would that be a h:istoric site, for example?

It was. one of the first places that you . saw the Sisters of Mercy come irr and start a very long and CQ :mmendable career of providing musdc lessons and other cultural LW74 December 6, 1985 Vol XL pursuits for the people, and not just of Brigus, Conception Bay. What are the things the minister would contemplate under this section? MR. MATTHEWS; Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Chairman, that is the kind of properties and sites that we would be looking at under this kind of cultural properties.

I think the one that the han. member identified is certainly very, very much a cultural property. These are the kinds of things we are looking at in the Province, and the home that the hon. member for St. Barbe was born in. MR. BARRY: Oh definitely! MR. FUREY: Mr. Chairman, I have a question for the minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: The minister is aware that the Tablelands of the Gros Morne area on the Great Northern Peninsula is probably going to be designated an international heritage site. MR. MATTHEWS: International what? MR. FUREY: Heritage site.

I wonder is the minister aware of that and what initiatives the Province is taking towards speeding that up? MR. MATTHEWS: No. 75 R4074

M'r. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Chairman, there are a number of areas that we are looking at as international sites of very historic significance in the Province. We are in correspondence with the federal government and other federal aqencies trying to push a number of these. Of course, we have had some problems with the minister in a~d out and one thing and another, b~t we will be following up on tnat very shortly as well. MR. FUREY: Mlr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for St. Barbe. MR.

FUREY: The reason being, of course, that t:he Tablelands, as I pointed out the other day, are the bowels of the earth. When the plates were shifting in the continental ice . age, 600 billion years ago, the middle of the earth moved up top and that is what is called the devil's minerals. As a result, when you drive through there, it is almost like driving through A·rizona during the Summer because all of the land of the Tableland is rust. It is like something out or a Western movie, to be quite honest.

They are trying to look at that site, because of the historic significance of it, 600 bill ion years old, to initiate it as an international heritage site. I appreciate the minister • s support and I am encouraged by it. On motion, Clauses (14) through {37) carried. L4075 December 6, 1985 Vol XL Motion, that the Committee repo1 having passed the bill wi that amendment, carried. A bill, 11 An Public Service (Bill No. 10) MR. CHAIRMAN: Act To Amend Tl (Pensions) Act.' Shall Clause 1 carry? DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Chairman, the hon. the Leade of the Opposition asked a questic yesterday and I told him I wou] look into the matter and brir what information was availabJ back to the Committee. That We in regard to the interest rat applied to premiums which ar refunded to recipients, if the leave public service and therefor are not eligible for deferre pension benefits. The rate in th act is 5 per cent compounded .. should point out that up unti 1977 that was 3 per cent simpl and it was changed to 5 per cen compounded, which was quite change, in 1977.

It has not bee changed since then but we have a actuarial study underway into al aspects of pension plans and tha is one of the ones that will b looked at in that actuaria review. We will be getting tha information in the near future We have not undertaken to make an changes at this time because tha would be wrapped in as part of th total actuarial review . I should point out, though, tha in comparison to what goes on i other jurisdictions, where th interest rates range from 4 pe cent to 8 per cent, we are in th No. 75 R4075

middle range. I guess there are a couple of reasons the interest rates are not higher. One is because the premiums go in at various periods in time when interest rates may be very low. They may vary, obviously, but some of the premiums came in when interest rates, generally speaking, were very low. That is one reason. The second reason, perhaps not a very good reason, is that these contributions are not looked upon as investments, strictly speaking. If you wanted to go and invest, I suppose you would put your money into something else. They are really put in from a pension point of view.

That is probably not a very good reason, but that is the rationale that people dealing with pensions have used in setting interest rates. MR. BARRY: Mr . Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Would the minister agree that right now government is making money on the pension funds, is able to borrow this money and utilize it rather than borrowing externally, which wi 11 cost 8 per c en t or 9 per c e n t? What was the last bond issue interest rate? DR. J. COLLINS: It depends on what market.

If you are in foreign currencies you might be anywhere from 6 to 8 per cent, but if you are in dollars you are up around 10 per cent. MR. BARRY : Basically·, right now the minister, the Grinch, is making 5 per cent L4076 December 6, 1985 Vol XL on the money of the employees of this Province and is providing no service for this. That is horrendous. That is a scandal, is it not? Is the minister prepared to continue this rip off? Is thE! minister prepared to continue to take advantage of the employees of this Province?

They have been stuck with a wage freeze, so is this not adding insult to injury to have their pension fund being made available for the extravagent uses of the minister at this low interest rate? DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, with that attack, I was just wondering whether 1 Grinch 1 was unparliamentary, but I will let that slide by. I might just point out that we do not borrow from our pension fund.

Hon. members may remember that some time ago, in a very restricted way, we did borrow a very restricted amount, under very restricted circumstances. The pension fund is invested by professionals on behalf of the Province and they work within certain guidelines applicable to the federal government pension fund. We do not borrow as a Province from our pension fund. As a matter of fact, by regulation we are restricted from borrowing for our own operating purposes from the pension fund.

I do have to point out though that the contributions to pensions do not satisfy the requirements of pension funds, so there have to be contributions by the employer. I No. 75 R4076

<do not know if the Leader of the <Dpposi tion meant this or not - if l+re did me an i t , he s h o u 1 d no t h au e meant it - when he said we are not giuing back to the employees as much as they put in. Indeed, we are giving back much more than they put in because of our employer contributions on behalf crf each employee in the pension fund schemes. llltR. BARRY: ~ ~ery weak explanation. I!I>Ii. COLLINS: !twas excellent. On motion, clauses (1) and (2), a::arried. lmD:tion, that the Committee report having pas sed the bill without a~endment, carried . ~ ~R'.

CHAIRMAN: «lrder 7, Bill No. 19 . lib bill, "An Act To tirorkers' Compensation { B:i 11 No . 1 9 ) . Amend The Act, 1983". Tlhe hon. the Leader of the ~ ·position . MR. BARRY: l'!ltr. Chairman, this is the Minister ~F Labour's bill, and at this $tage we would like to moue an ~endment. The member for ~onauista North (Mr. Lush), who ~shed to move it, unfortunately tmad a doctor's appointment, I ttl:tink, and could not make it. lili'he r e i s the appropriate p lac e to st:ic k this in here?

It would be lllJilll Clause I, I think, because if ~e go to Clause 2 we are going to l!re. past the section, just to keep the sections in order. Mr. Chairman, we will wait and add a.nother Clause 5 to the bill IL4l077 December 6, 1985 Vol XL before approval of the title. On motion, Clause 1 and 2 carried MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause 3 carry? MR. MARSHALL : Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon. the .President of Council MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Chairman, consequential on H information that the minister ga~ when he introduced the bill, moue that Clause 3 of the bill t struck out and the followir substituted therefore: Clause would then read "Sectio-n 69 of H said act is amended by addir immediately after subsection (ii the following: 'any periodi benefits relative to an injur that a wo r k e r i s en t i t 1 e d t receive under the Canada Pensio Act may be considered as wage that the worker is capable a earning in calculating th compensation to be paid by _th Commission for the loss of earnin capacity' .

" I moue that amendment and it i for the reasons already given i second reading by the hon minister. The hon. minister wil respond, of course. MR. BARRY: Did the minister giu e a reply i Committee about 'On the expiratio of twelve months from the date o commencement of the loss o earning capacity resulting fro: the injury, ' which is what was i the original clause? Could th' minister explain that? MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon . the Minister of Labour. No . 75 R4-077

MR ' .. BLANCHARD: Y'e'so,, Mr. Chairman. As I explained wh~m I introduced it, the original hiLL., said, 11 0n the expiration of tweT~ve months. 11 It was thought w he 11 • t h a t b i 11 wa s d rafted that Canada Pension Plan benefits only cam~ into effect twelve months afte:r an injury. There are a cou~le of ways you can get it, eith~r by retirement or you can g_et benefits from an accident or an. injury. We found out after t.hi .s bill was drafted that they a.an " antedate the payments and s:tar.t from three of four months a:ft.er the injury. So we took that o:u:tt ..

Also <, toward the end of Clause 3, in the initial bill, it said, "In determining the surviving spouse • s entitlement. 11 We just want to make sure that the worker•s l:renefi ts do not go beyond what he wou-ld be able to earn. We do not want to affect the surviving s:pouse • s benefits, so that is a~tered to take care of that too. On • motion, amendment carried . MR '. BARRY: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The · hon. the Leader of the O):)p:o -si tion. MR. BARRY : Mr. Chairman, we do not support th~ notion of reducing payments to vrork :ers • Compensation recipients. They .• are small enough as they are.

We will not be supporting the - s.ection to the ex tent that it ha~ the effect of reducing Wa~~ers 1 Compensation payments. The minister indicated it could increase in some cases, or it c.oul.d reduce. We would suggest t.:he- minister should go back and na~draft it so that an increase is LlJ'G~Nl · December 6, 1985 Vol XL possible, a reduction is not. MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Labour . MR. BLANCHARD: No, it is not altering anything.

In the administrative practice now it is taken for granted tha~ you cannot earn more from an accident than you would earn in your regular earnings. Apart from the fact that there would be no incentive to rehabilitate a person back into the work force, nobody at the present time, because of a computer linkage between Canada Pension Plan payments and Workers• Compensation Commission payments, gets more than their previous pay, or they reduce it. That happens now, at the present time, and all we are doing is making it clear there, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause (4) carry? MR. BARRY: Clause (4), Mr.

Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Clause ( 4), Mr. Chairman, we note that there is a retroactive effect to this clause. However, we do not object to retroactive legislation which provides for benefits, Mr. Chairman. It says, 11 This

section is deemed to have come into force on the first day of September, 1969 but applies only in relation to a worker" who was employed in fluorspar extraction. That is designed, I assume, to perserve the right of the St. Lawrence widows and so No. 75 R4078

Forth. Is it? So it would perserve benefits rather than take away ~ights? MR. ffLANCHARD: Mr. Chairman. MR. CH~ I RMAN: The hon . the Minister of Labour . MR. 81LANCHARD: Mr. Chairman, that was the time of the r·e port , the in v e s t i gat ion i n to all of the illness that occurred from ~rking in that mine. The date ~f 1983 is mentioned there now. So it was anytime after the cessation of operations by Alcan and anytime prior to the operation of a new company. On motion Clause (4) carried. MR . CHAIRMAN: Shall the enacting clause carry? MR. BM~RY : Mr. Chairman. MR. CH'AIRMAN: The hon. the Opposition. MR.

BA ·RRY : Leader of the Before the enacting clause carries, Mr. Chairman, I would like to move, seconded by the member for Fogo (Mr. Tul k) , that the motion before the House be amended to add as

Section 5 the following : • The said act as amended by deleting

Section 21 1 , which gives the Workers• Compensation Board the right of appeal, by adding the following section, •section 21 (1) there is hereby constituted a tribunal to be known as the Workers• Compensation Appeals Tribunal.

(2) The Lieutenant-Governor in Council shall appoint a Chairman of the Appeals Tribunal, one or L4-079 December 6, 1985 Vol XL more Vice-Chairmen of The Appe< Tribunal, and as many members the Appeals Tribunal, equal number, representative < employers and workers respective: as is considered appropriate. (3) •subject to

Section 22, which provides for an appeal the Supreme Court on matters c jurisdiction or law, • the AppeaJ Tribunal has exclusi~ jurisdiction to hear, determir and dispose of any matter or issl expressly conferred upon it t this act. All appeals fro decisions, orders, or rulings c the Commission respecting th provision of health care vocational rehabilitation o entitlement to compensation o benefits under this Act; and (c all appeals respectin assessments, penalities, or th transfer of costs.

(4) The Appeals Tribunal shall no hear, determine, or dispose of a appeal from a decision, order, o ruling of the Commission unles the procedures established by . th Commission for consideration o issues respecting the matter mentioned in Clause (3) (

b) or (c h~ve been exhausted and th Commission has made a fina decision, order, or rulin thereon. 11 I will table that, Mr. Chairman The affect of that would be to pu the Workers• Compensation Appeal · Tribunal in the position of bein1 the final appeal, rather thai having the Workers• Compensatio1 Commission, as it is now, bein1 the final appeal. It woul< require that before an appeal i~ taken to that tribunal, that an~ individual would go through thE normal process of application , getting the initial decision , getting a hearing by the No. 75 R4-079

Commission itself, and it would Gnly be at that stage that the a.ppeal would kick in. It is UJording taken from the Ontario a!c-t. We did not include all the sections of the Ontario act that tie into this, which are housekeeping, as I mentioned, involving compensation and pensions and so forth, for the members of the tribunal. They are various technical matters. We wanted to keep it simple so that t~he principle would be clear. We know the minister has expressed a positive response and we know t:hat he is concerned about the numbers of complaints that are being received with respect to Workers' Compensation.

We ask that he look seriously at this. The minister earlier said he is not sure that this is the complete answer. We would agree with the minister, this is not the complete a.nswer but, Mr. Speaker, this ~ould be a good first step, and if the minister is going to bring in o·ther changes, we commend him for looking at the whole system and will support him in changes to improve the system. But we would sincerely suggest to him that this would be a good, positive first step to take.

It would give a lot o.f people out there now who have lost faith in the system some assurance that there will be an objective, independent body looking at their problems as they occur from time to time. MR .. BLANCHARD: M'r. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The hon. the Minister of Labour. M'R. BLANCHARD: Mr. Chairman, in my remarks yesterday in closing the debate, I addiressed that particular t-40 :8.0 December 6, 1985 Vol XL question, but I want to thank the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I am sincere about well-meaning about sure this it.

I him for bringing it out. he is and thank I want to say also that I am not against that type of an amendment. I am not satisfied with the appeal process right now and I do not think anybody on this side of the House is entirely satisfied with the appeal process. The only thing I am saying is that we do plan, under a provision in

Section 114 of the Workers' Compensation Act, for a committee to be established to review not only the act, but to broaden the terms of reference of that committee and have them look at, also, the administrative practices. Largely, there is a feeling among the people who have complained to me about it, that perhaps it is largely administration of the act and regulations that is causing the prob1em. I see the Leader of the Opposition shaking his head and I do not disagree with his feeling about this. We are very well-intentioned, very well-meaning with respect to the idea of having an external appeal.

I guess, I am saying and I gave you an example yesterday - that, as you know, external appeals are very new in Canada. Up until just a short while ago, there was no provision in any Province for an external appeal. In one of the provinces where they have introduced it, they found five or six months after they introduced that amendment that they had a backlog of something like 1,500 cases. MR. BARRY: No. 75 R4080

The •re must have been a need for it the :n. MR'. BLANCHARD: Obviously, but the thing was brand new and as soon as it came in, everybody said, 11 Well, I am going to appeal my case. I have nothing to: lose. 11 I am not suggesting there is anything wrong with that, but I do not want to say to a worker who has been unfortunate enough to suffer an accident in the course of his employment, ~Look, we are putting in something For you here that is going to give J.IOtll some help out of this . 11 We llllarti: to make sure that it works.

I: am not certain that, taken out oF context, that kind of an aJTler.tdment is the answer to it. M'R .. BAKER: M:r. Chairman. ~R. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The hon. the member for Gander . Mifi. BAKER: l!llir-. Chairman, I am not quite sure ~xactly what is going on here. Let me just review a little bit. Our amendment calls for an i.ndependent appeals tribunal so that the same people handling the case in the first place are not h:an:dling the appeal. I think that is kind of the idea behind it.

Secondly, the minister has irndicated that there is in the act ~tself provision for a committee ta- be set up that kind of handles p~rt of the duties of this tribunal that we are suggesting. Is that correct? Ml". BLANCHARD: N01" that is not correct. Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. 1'1liL CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Labour on 1:..4-081 December 6, 1985 Vol XL a point of order . MR. BLANCHARD: I just want to explain, if yc understood that from me, that i not accurate. The committee tha is provided for is under Sectic 114, subsection (2), in Th Workers 1 Compensation Act.

Tha provision is for a committee to b set up, once in every five years to review the legislation and als review any administrative o policy matters of the board tha are not working. It has nothin to do with the appeal thing. MR . CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: I thank the minister for hi explanation. I think that ther was one thing that he said tha perhaps may be a littl misleading. I think that Sectio 114 says that the Committee may b set up within a five year period and not set up at the end of fiv years.

The point I would like t make with regard to that, Mr Chairman, is as follows: The Minister 9f Labour (Mr Blanchard), who was deput minister before he became Ministe of Labour, has some responsibilit in this regard and had som' responsibility to set up thi· committee to review th' legislation over the past four an1 a half years. One of my points i· this: if we accept the fact tha· the minister says that there is i real problem, he also said he doe: not like to see people no ' perceived to be receiving fait treatment.

I think he said thai the process was felt not to bE fair because the people who madE the original decision would thet rule on the appeal. He mentionec the word 11 fairness 11 • This is m~ No. 75 R4081

problem with it: if, in fact, this was the minister's ~erception, and obviously was LiJhile he was deputy minister, how come this particular

section has not been invoked before now? How come there has not been a review of the legislation pertaining to this one particular point? That leads me to what I started w1th. I am not quite clear on UJ.fu 'a t i s going on here . I t hi n k 11Jhat the minister is saying is that they are not going to support CD!ll.lir amendment. He has never actually said that but I think the jist of his comments is that members opposite are not going to support our amendment. The reason given is that where it was tried in other provinces there was a big backlog of cases.

I think that is what I hear the minister saying ·. ] am wondering is this an instance where, simply for partisan reasons, that members opposite really are not willing to accept a good solid, sound; suggestion or an amendment made by the Opposition, simply because it is made by the Opposition. This is the question that crosses my mind . I know that the minister mas said he is concerned, that he recognizes the problem, but again I go back to the fact that the committee process existed before.

Ir the concern was there that this particular part of the legislation ~as unjust, if there was a real c:-oncern, it should have been dealt L~~~ith through this process, if, in Fact, the process can do it. ~ am wondering why that process has not been invoked before; if it has, why was the legislation not changed to take care of the minister's concerns , the minister who was deputy minister before; and if in fact the non-support of li.4.-082 December 6, 1985 Vol XL our amendment is simply because it is coming from this side? MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Chairman . MR . CHAIRMAN : The han. the Minister of Labour . MR.

BLANCHARD: Mr . Chairman, there are two or three points that the han. the member for Gander (Mr. Baker) has raised here. Number one, he asked why the committee has not been established before. I would 1 ike to tell you that since the original act was introduced in 1950, as a matter of fact there has been a committee struck every four to five years. As the Act says, 11 Shall at least once in every five years from the commencement of the act, 11 so there has been a review every four or five years and recommendations have been made. We have given effect to many of . the recommendations .

The last time the Committee reviewed just mainly the act and they did not really go into any depth of a review of the policies and procedures. Now we are saying that within the framework of that

section we are going to expand the terms of reference of that Committee that we will be establishing . I mentioned yesterday, in closing the debate, that I was going to be taking this matter up with my Cabinet colleagues in a matter of a couple of weeks. The other thing is it is not because the amendment is coming from the opposite side of the House that we do not think it ought to be done. Your amendment may come out in the final analysis to be the way that you have suggested it because, as the han. the Leader of the Opposition said, No. 75 R4082

he has taken it practically u.rerba .tim, I think, from the 01\lta ,rio act. Now, Ontario's experience is brand new. They rra-v.e ' just brought in the process of . a;n o u t s i d e a p pea 1 . T h e r e are u,·ery few provinces which have it . The majority of provinces still do not . have it. We are all looking at it . We are not waiting for any ather province to move on it. ! r·e,peat once more that I would moot. want the workers of this Pro~~Vi.nce to think that they will haue : to continue to go to the same P:·eop:l.e.

As a rna tter of fact, as ii!I!T :ii.r.rt e r n a 1 p o 1 i c y , s i n c e I h a v e hecame minister, I have discussed with the Chairman of the Workers' Compen~ation Commission that idea that he not have the same faces, even while it is as it is now. When the hearing takes place, which : is provided for under the ~~t, one of the commissioners will ChaiF the panel, the hearing, that :iis he :ing held. If in fact there is going to be an appeal from that final ruling, then a different commissioner and perhaps one of the executive directors in the Worker's Compensation Commission would sit on it.

Sor I am personally monitoring the thing. very, very carefully. I jus.t simply think that the a.mendment would kind of take out o.f' context what is being planned l)d.tfthin the framework of

section 1i t 4-.. l.'lf:R . BAKER: Mr . Chairman. M'R: . OMHRMAN: Tlhe ho.n.. the member for Gander . MR. BA'KER : I just want a very brief comment fuFther to my reason for suspecting that, because it is l408ll December 6, 1985 Vol XL coming from this side, maybe th is the reason it is bei rejected . I am not questioni the minister's sincerity, let get that straight right awa What gave me the impression real was a comment made by the Premi• yesterday . It seemed to be a very unusui kind of thing, where the memb1 for Bonavista North (Mr.

Lush), believe, or the Leader of tl Opposition - I forget which pers( now - was talking about tt amendment and happened to mentic that this amendment was pret1 much like the situation in Ontar ] and what has been done therE Right away the thing that was she back was, 11 We are j Newfoundland. We are not going t follow Ontario, 11 and this kind c thing. It seemed to me to be very shallow response to a seriaL situation where the Premier of t~ Province says that, in effect, i does not really matter whethe this amendment is good or not that he does not want to follc Ontario's lead in anything.

Thi was the impression, Mr . Minister that was given yesterday i debate. It was completely out o tone with the rest of what wa going on here. It seemed to be good discussion, a good airing o the situation up until that pain where the Premier some how saw fi to interject himself and agai brought it to the level of pett politics. That really concerne me and I just wanted to give thi explanation as to why I considere that there may be some petty little, partisan political thin going on here but not from th point of view of the minister. MR. BLANCHARD : Mr. Chairman. MR. SPEAKER: No. 75 R4083

~~e han. the Minister of Labour. ~ .. BLANCHARD: M'r.' '.. Chairman, I do not think a~ybody on this side needs to e-x{plain a comment by the Premier. B'u t I t hi n k t hi s d e s e r v e s an e·xplanation because the Premier simply stated that because Ontario d o .e s it does not me an it is necessarily the best. We said the same thing , and I think it was taken in the wrong context when we ta1.Tked about the ILO thing. We s:,a:id we would look at it for the b:e-·s;t way to improve upon it. Just b'.e'c:-ause Ontario did it or somebody ~Lse did it, does not mean that it i.s; be s t .

I s aid to y o u that O~tario just very recently brought in the idea of an outside appeal, and I think that is what the Pr-emier • s comment arose from. The Premier is very concerned about Uris , too . I per s on a 11 y d i s c u s s e d i.t with him since I have been minister. We are all concerned Cilbo ·ut it. Your point is well taken, but I think that should e~plain what was said. M'R' .. CHAIRMAN: Shall the amendment carry? MR. FLIGHT: Na~ Mr. Chairman, the amendment s~all not carry yet. Mi~. CHAIRMAN: Ti':l';e han. member for Windsor IJ-;l!l.e..lila n s . M'W .. FLIGHT : M'r·.

Chairman, I am surprised that t~~ minister is not taking the <a;Ffll!Ortu ni ty to accept this ~rrendment and wipe out what has ~~t to be one of the silliest thdings that is happening with reqards to the Workers• C01npensation Board. He talks a"J:;)~ ,ut sending new faces out to r~present people on the Appeal L410184 December 6, 1985 Vol XL Board. Now, Mr. Chairman, I am going take the minister through a scenario that makes a member of th~ House of Assembly feel silly, let alone the injured worker.

I have had, in the past six months, three or four cases where the Workers • Compensation Board turned down an application for compensation, or disrupted the compensation pay to workers, or reduced it, or refused rehabilitation - any number of things that in the workers • mind left the feeling that they were unfairly treated . So I went, as the member, to the Workers • Compensation Board and I outlined the case using the same facts as the worker would do when he finally appealed the decision. Mr. Chairman, I found myself representing that worker at an appeal hearing in Grand Falls.

I knocked on the hate 1 door of the Mount Peyton, and who ·opened the door? The member of the Board whom I had spent three months dealing with back and forth qver the telephone and sending written correspondence to. Mr. Chairman, I realized the futility of the operation, but the worker did not realize the futility of the operation. I could have taken time to explain to him how stupid and how silly and ridiculous and actually hypocritical this process was about to be, because I knew the worker had been put in a position to drive sixty or seventy miles.

It cost the Workers • Compensation Board a fair amount of dollars to send that member of the Board to Grand Falls, house him in Mount Peyton and probably house him on his way back in Gander, knowing when he left St. John•s he was going to take the same attitude in No. 75 R4084

that appeal in Grand Falls as he took when he made the decision in St . John • s. I will tell the minister this, and it may or may not be important, but I have sat to date on five or six appeals and not one of those appeals was successful in the sense that it changed the original decision not one. There is no way, Mr. Speaker.

I am amazed that the minister is not taking action now to get out of that silly situation by accepting this amendment and p e rmi t tin g an a p pea 1 pro c e s s that is quite independent of the Workers • Compensation Board and independent of the people who made the decision in the first place. It is ludricrous to think that a member of the Workers• Compensation Board, having been involved in the original decision, had set out before him all the facts relating to that particular worker, will then come to Grand Falls and change his own decision. There are blind spots there, Mr . Chairman.

When a member of the Workers• Compensation Board finds himself acting for the board in an appeal process, there is a blind spot, there is a desire to support and uphold the original decision of the Workers• Compensation Board. It is grossly unfair, it is unfair to the workers and it is hypocritical. There is another fact, Mr. Chairman, that has been bothering me for some time. The process is publicized as an appeal board. I have seen case after case where one member of that board, with no support staff, comes in and sits and hears an appeal. How can that be construed as an appeal board?

It is a dictatorial situation where that particular member has nobody there to say, "Let us L4085 December 6, 1985 Vol XL reconsider point. 11 this point or thi Mr. Speaker, if the minister doE not accept this amendment, then find it difficult to believe the he does indeed question tt system. He stood here for fi~ minutes and he indicated that was concerned with the proces~ that he had problems with it, the he was going to look at changir it. I find it difficult to acce~ his sincerity in that. If that j the way he feels, here is hj chance. It is a simp] amendment. It is not political] based.

The minister should accet= this amendment and wipe out tr unfairness and hypocrisy that r is permitting in the Workers Compensation Board, to th detriment of the worker in thi Province. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, if I could just fo a few moments. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon . the President of . th Council. MR. MARSHA LL: I have listened to the ministe and the minister is giving th government position with respec to this proposed amendment.

Wha the minister is quite clearl saying is that nothing is carve in stone; that the minister i going to take that unde advisement; and that there is committee being set up to look a these things which will assess al aspects of this particular issue including remarks that have bee : made by the hon. gentlemen ther• opposite. But the government i: not prepared to make an amendmen· of this nature at this particulat time without having it fully an< absolutely assessed. No. 75 R4085

I can tell the hon. gentlemen there opposite, as the minister !has already done, that when a c:ommi t tee is s e t up certainly their views will be taken into account. I do not want to incite the hon. gentleman, we can talk to Doomsday about this, but the government at this particular time is not go i n g to pas s it , but will take into consideration the remarks that have been passed. M'R . TULK: Mr. Chairman. M:lll. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Fogo. M·R. TULK: On the attitude that is being taken on this bill, I appreciate the position that the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) finds himself in.

He wants to close her down, at the same time he wants to be nasty, which is typical of him. MIL MARSHALL: I cannot avoid that . MR .. TULK: No, you cannot avoid that. I will tell you something else that this government cannot avoid and that is the hypocritical stance that they take on certain issues. I have to tell the Minister of Labour (Mr. Blanchard), as ~ell-intentioned as he might be, that I believe that his stance on this amendment is full of hypocrisy. His stand is full of hypocrisy.

He gets up and he sympathizes after having all those ca .ses pointed out to him - I have all:o cther load of them here which I could go through one by one by one after our going through all those cases of hardship and injustice being carried out today i~ the appeal process - LW86 December 6, 1985 Vol XL MR. MATTHEWS: Now, take care. problem, there committee. MR. TULK: If we would had be Mr. Chairman, try to keep soccer balls quiet there. MR. MATTHEWS: You should not have been down the hotel so late last night. MR. TULK: no no old at I would like to have the hon. gentleman over there quiet.

I have to tell the hon. gentleman ·that his stance is totally full of hypocrisy. He knows the problems are there, he admits that. He stands in this House and admits that he knows the problems are there, he has known that for years, but the two reasons he gives for not accepting this amendment are not at all what the Government House Leader said, that they are going to put it into Committee. Those are not his reasons at all. He says, 11 This is only a band-aid. 11 Well, I hav~ to tell him that if you are bleeding to death, a band-aid can stop you from bleeding to death on certain occasions.

His other reason is that he is somehow going to put it into a Committee later on and he is afraid that he is going to get a large number of people coming back looking for justice. That is what he is afraid of. He is afraid he is going to get swamped. He is afraid the Appeal Board will be swamped. So he says, 11 No, we cannot take this amendment . Somewhere down the road we are going to set up an appeal procedure. 11 I want to ask him a question. I hold in my hand here a letter from No. 75 R4086

tf:ne Workers 1 Compensation Board d'e-~ling with a certain Mr. Collett f'r-olTl : Carmanville whom the Workers 1 Q;omp ·ensation Board tried to force in1to hospital for treatment for an injury where he had a fifty/fifty chance of being paralyzed or not being : paralyzed. He choose anoth·er method of medical treatment for his back problem. He had a brace prescribed for his ~ack. Consequently, his back is be·t·t e r , he i s b a c k wo r k i n g , but the ·.

Workers 1 Compensation Board - t.h11& tribunal, the appeal people - tllne:~ ~ refuse to give him Workers 1 <C'.cmJp ,e:rrnsation for the time that he IJ.Uitls- under a different kind of t:rr'ea ·tment, so he would have to ~~ke their treatment or none at a<ll. H;01i:l' is the minister going to explain to that man that he is go-ing to wait a little while Jlarrger to see that an appeal p,:rr'ocedure, where he can get some jw:s;tice, is put: in place? How is he going to explain to that gentleman, even if he is one of 10,000, that he has no right to an appeal process right now, today?

IF the minister's stance is not full of hypocrisy, what is it? It is full of hypocrisy, the whole s.tance that is being taken by the 10·ther side. It may very well be an issue which could be debated and probably should be debated for th 'e next five or six days until the minister gives in and stops pclaying politics, stops being led by that fellow over there, who ~~11 play politics with anything. ~~~L WARREN: Get ahold on yourself, boy. down. MR. TULK : Sit Ol.d Snuggles is at it again.

He is being led by that gentleman l4087 December 6, 1985 Vol XL over there, who will do anythir politically, and he is really nc concerned about whether people j Newfoundland get justice under H Workers 1 Compensation Act or not He is not concerned about it c all. MR. WARREN: You are making a fool of yourself . MR. SIMMONS: Would the member permit a questio~ MR. TULK: Yes. MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Chairman, about my friend fro Torngat , just to put a quic question to my colleague, does h know what you would call a stuffe toy that has a diaper at both ends MR. TULK: Is it called the Warren doll o the Garfield doll?

In any case, Mr. Chairman, I woul ask the minister to stand in hi place and to tell his colleague that this is a very worthwhil amendment. 11 We may have to chang it later on. We may have to d something else with it but a least the band-aid could stop th flow of blood, and I would ask hi 1 to accept the amendment and b encourage his colleagues to do so. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Carried! Carried! SOME HON . MEMBERS: No! MR . TULK: Mr . Chairman, did you not announcE that that amendment was carried? SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. No. 75 R4-087

MR. TULK: Yes, Hansard will show. SOME HON. MEMBERS: On division. MR. MARSHALL : Mr. Chairman, you do not have division in Committee and the hon. gentlemen do not rule the roost. If the hon. gentlemen want to they c. an say , ' Have it noted it is on d!ivision 11 but you do not have division in Committee. Those ~xperienced parliamentarians over t:here, we will have to move them ~ext time so we can get some sense into the House. M~.

BARRY: We have an enlightened Chairman of Committees. l"f1R, CHAIRMAN: o:rder, please! vrhe same procedure for a division :iin the House shall be followed in Committee of the Whole.' Call in the members. Division 1\l!'R. CHAIRMAN: Rll those in favour amendment please rise: of the r,he hon. the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Flight, Mr. Tulk, Mr. Callan, The hon. Mr. Simmons, ~ ·r. W. Carter, Mr. Gilbert, Mr. K. Aylward, Mr. Baker, Mr. Furey, Mr. D~ecker. 1\ltR. CHAIRMAN: ~11 those against the amendment please rise: T.he hon. Resources 1!..4088 the and Minister of Lands (Mr.

December 6, 1985 Forest Simms), Vol XL the hon. the Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey), the hon. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr . Rideout), the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Dinn), the hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications (Mr. Russell), the hon. the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall), the hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), the hon. the President of Treasury Board (Mr. Windsor), the hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young), the hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews), the hon . the Minister of Education (Mr.

Hearn), the hon. the Minister of Labour (Mr. Blanchard), the hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. R. Aylward), the hon. the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Brett), Mr. Baird, Mr. Hickey, Mr. Patterson, Mr. Reid, Mr. Tobin, the hon. the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Butt), Mr. Hodder, Mr. Warren, Mr. Mitchell. MR. CHAIRMAN: There are eleven for the amendment and twenty-three against. Motion, that the Committee report having passed Bill No. 19 with amendment, carried. On motion, that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr.

Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! The hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report Bills Nos. 7, 10, and No. 75 R4088

1~ passed without amendment, and Bill No. 19 with amendment, and ask leave to sit again. O'rr. motion, report received and adopted, amendment ordered read a f"i.rst and second time. O'n m:otion, amendment read a first a:nd second time, bill ordered read a tbird time, presently, by leave. On motion, the following bills LU.e ·re- read a third time, ordered p;atssed and their titles be as on t:line Order Paper. It\ bi 11, \ij(!l!rkers 1 N-O' .. 19). 11

An Act To Amend The Compensation Act 11 • (Bill A'; b:ill. 11

An Act To Amend The Day Care And Homemaker Services Act, L9qsn. (Bill No. 18). A'\ bi 11. 11

An Act Res pectin g The Pr-e-servation Of The Historic Resources Of The Province 11 • (Bill · Ncr.. 7) . A bill, 11 An Public Service «Bi.ll No. 10). Act To Amend The Adjourned debate of a bi 11, 11 An ~ewfoundland And Ca.rporation Act 11 • P!11'-. FLIGHT: M\r.--. Speaker. M"fi . SPEAKER: (Pensions) Act 11 • on second reading Act To Amend The Labrador Housing (Bill No. 20). Tfre hon. the member for Windsor - B'uchans. M~ .. fLIGHT: l'il!:r .. Speaker, most of the points which needed to be made on this bill were made yesterday, so the rwinister only has to answer most O>f the concerns we have.

I just IJ.ialn:tt to say to the minister that L4089 December 6, 1985 Vol XL we have a big concentration < Newfoundland and Labrador Housir units in my district, and in H adjoining town of Grand Falls. ~ are aware of the blessings, but l.l are very well aware of t~ shortcomings, Mr. Speaker, and oL biggest concern is the way t~ committee system has gotten of the tracks, the committee fc selection is no longer working.

We are having meetings with on] one member of that Committe attending, we are finding tha most of the allocations are nc based on the sole advice of a employee of the Newfoundland ar Labrador Housing Corporation There is evidence that tr allocation, itself, is no longe based on need, it may well b based on the attitudes of a employee of the Corporation. not intend t but we had St. John 1 s Newfoundlan refused t family wbos because the Mr. Speaker, I do prolong the debate, perfect example in week or two ago when and Labrador Housing allocate a house to a house had burned down had no fixed address.

I am running into that sort o thing constantly - not the sam nature - and there is grea frustration, there is grea suffering by people wh desperately need houses. The feel they are not being listene to, or heard, by th repres enta tiv es in the regiona offices of the Housin Corporation. The regional office have evolved into little empires As the member for Grand Falls (Mr Simms) said publicly a few day ago, there does not appear to b any sense of management in th regional office in Grand Falls and people seeking houses fin · themselves at the mercy of No. 75 R4089

person, an employee of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. ~ho, if he does not like your at t.i tude , if he doe s not 1 i k e t he wa~ you present your application. if he does not like the fact that you complained because you are not beir:tg well treated. you will never get . a house. That is basically all I have to say . Mr. Speaker.

I would like to hea .r.' the minister comment on some oF the concerns we have raised and., further, I would like him to -Follow through on the Minister of forest Resources and Lands' reco !mmendation that the regional offices ·be looked at- there is no sense of management in those offices - and that management and leadership will be provided by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. MR. DINN: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the main import of the amendment to the Act has been outlined very adequately by the Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall). To answer some of the concerns expressed by the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight). I concur with what the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands said with respect to marlagement in the regional offices. Of course. the hon. member knows that up to a very short time ago there was no regional office in Grand Falls . We have corrected that situation now. Grand Falls has been moved up to the status of a full L409 '0 December 6, 1985 Vol XL regional office. regional manager very short order.

It will have a in place in a With respect to the case which was brought to public attention, the case of the lady down in the East End of St. John's who had the unfortunate circumstance of having her house burn down, she approached the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation on November 19, she was allocated a unit on November 21, which was the quickest time in which we could get a Tenant Selection Committee in place, and it took something like two days to get an allocation . Fortunately, or unfortunately, the lady misunderstood what was said to her over in the office.

Arrangements were being made by her sister for her to live in her sister's unit. which is also a Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation unit. There is a policy in place with respect to who · lives in a unit . If you assign a unit of two bedrooms to a family, then .YOU cannot have three or four families in that unit. There was a misunderstanding there. That was corrected by myself, personally, and the lady has been looked after. She did not accept the unit which was assigned to her beca·use of the problem with her two children getting back and forth to school.

She will be living with her sister, in the unit which her sister is in now. and she will be assigned one in the location she wants and requires so that her children can go to St. Joseph's School. That situation has been looked after to her satisfaction and. as a rna t ter of fact, Mr. Speaker, everything with respect to that case has been handled since that information was made public on CBC Radio here in No. 75 R4090

S.t ., Iohn's. Mr. Speaker, I move s;e :c-:crn'rl r e ad i n g . 0 n rn:ot ion , a b i 11 , 11 An A c t To Amen~ The Newfoundland And Labra-dor Housing Corporation Act", read a ~econd time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole. House, presently, by leave. (B )ill No. 20). Mo ,t:ion, second reading 11 Am Act To Amend The Alc: .t.m. (Bill No. 40) . OiW .. COLLINS: ~- · .. Speaker. l"m:. S>PEAKER: of a bill, Income Tax Th-e ! n-.c;m. the Minister of Finance. IJR .. G;ULLINS: Mr .. s:peaker I the Province is party t~ the tax collection agreement w.i t:h ~ the federal government.

That means that our Income Tax Act has t:o be in conformity with the ff'ed :er.al Tax Act, so this bill is irrtrodu ced regularly. When the f.eds: change their act, we have to c om ·e>: along and just bring an amendment to make ours continues that conformity . If we do not do that, of course, we will be in violation of the Tax Collection Agreement, which works much to our benefit, so, obviously, it is in the best interest of the Province to do this. I moue second reading. MR. eARRY: Mr ' .. Speaker. M'R. SPEAKER: Th~ hon. the Leader of the Opp~ition. MR. IJ,ARRY: Oh, no! We have here, Mr.

Speaker, about the only thing on the Order Paper which gives us a cha'JT<re to debate the fundamental iss >ue before this Province today, L~n December 6, 1985 Vol XL which is the necessity of reduci1 taxes . DR. COLLINS : There are finance bills on ti Order Paper. MR. BA RRY : Yes, there are finance bills, bt we do not know when they ar coming up. This is one, Mr Speaker, which is going to requir a certain amount of debate.

It j going to raise certain fundamentc issues, such as what should t done in terms of job creatic through stimulation of the econom~ We are going to have to get int the question of why is it that t~ Province has gone meekly alor behind the Tory government i Ottawa which has reduced capita gains , Mr . Speaker, given $500,000 lifetime allowance fo capital gains, which is reduction of tax for the rich an the rich onl -y. Why is ou government meekly following alon behind this? The Province of Ontario, th Liberal administration of tha Province, Mr .

Speaker, ha indicated that it is going to tak up the room that has been provided DR. COLLINS: It may take up. MR. BARRY: Yes, it is looking very closely a taking up the tax room that ha been provided by this reduction i tax by the federal government . would suggest very strongly to th minister that that is the one are where a reduction in tax is no necessary, Mr. Speaker Economists have pointed out that , reduction in the capital gains ta . does not ensure the creation o­ jobs. All it does is ensur' No. 75 R4091

land, it ensures the stock market, ensure the type of we need here in speculation in speculation in fu:ut it does not investment that t:his Province in j-obs. order to create Dl!lring the last election, Mr. Speaker, I think it is generally accepted that we developed a pretty good momentum during that campaign, and we have to say, Mr. Sp :eaker, that our plan for stimulating the economy was a very important element in the de ,uelopment of that momentum, a momentum that in a few more days would have seen our forming the qovernment. Do members opposite know how close they came to being turfed out?

They do not realize. Switching, 1, 631 votes, Mr. Speaker, in twelve districts would have done it. That would have given us twenty-seven seats. The member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) just turned white, he did not realize how close it was. By, the way, these 1, 631 votes plus have now been gathered since the election campaign. MR. SIMMS: I like the timing you used. MR. BARRY: Yes, the timing was a little bit off , M r . Speak e r I i t was a 1 i t t 1 e ~it off. It took us a little while, Mr. Speaker, to get the roll started, but a big part of the roll that was star t