VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. Tuesday, May 5, 1981 NO. 33 r;

May 5, 1981 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Tape No. 1256 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. NM - 1 MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, it is with considerable pride and pleasure that I have the privilege to inform this House of Assembly of what can only be described as a major step forward in the Province's economic development.

While in recent years this government and this House of Assembly has presided over the important changes in the way our people manage and attempt to generate social and economic security from our natural resources, I am today able to announce that another important resource, the people's financial assets and collective consumer credit strengths 1 is being given important assistance by government. Mr. Speaker, it was last August that my department was pleased to assume responsibility for co­ operatives and credit unions in the Province. As a development department we saw our role as developmental.

While we regard the role of inspection and regulation of co-operative societies as certainly important, it was our intention to apply a similar developmental philosophy to co-operatives and to credit union matters as has been our department's practice in the areas of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development programming. Mr. Speaker, government's five year plan has clearly stated that "Government envisages an enhanced role for co-operatives in the future~' Arising from this commitment,I am today announcing the agreement by government to implement phase one of a Co-operative Development Programme. 3505

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1256 NM - 2 MR. GOUDIE: In association with the Credit Union Council of Newfoundland, the Canadian Co-operative Credit Society, the Newfoundland Teache~s'Credit Union, and the Terra Nova Credit Union, government has ~greed to commit up to a maximum of $790,000 in funds over the next · five years to support the consolidation of assets of two existing credit unions into what will be the Province's largest public credit union to be known as the Newfoundland and Labrador Credit Union Limited.

The Newfoundland and Labrador Credit Union will commence operations during this fiscal year with assets totalling $23 million and an existing membership of 7,500 with five branches located across the Province. The commitment by government to this development reflects our confidence in the 38,000 members of the co-operative and credit union movement to continue to build a firm foundation for provincial sovereignty over our financial and consumer credit resources.

Because of the fact that our Province is proportionately more dependent than any other upon national and international sources for private ~onsumer and business credit investment, because of the fact that such a high proportion of consumer credit accounts rest with finance companies resulting in considerable income leakages for the Province, and because of the historical absence of locally controlled and developed financial institutions, government finds it important to assist those Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who are working together co-operatively to build a stronger, more secur~, financial future for all of us.

This decision, in combination with the investment of time, skill and resources from the co­ operative movement, will result over times in increased access to 3506 . ....

Hay 5, 1981 Tape No. 1256 NM - 3 MR. GOUDIE: low-cost financial services for our citii zens , greater returns t o the economy for the local re-investment of finance capital revenues, greater responsiveness by financial capital to the particular needs of the local economy, increased local control over the .savings of New­ foundlanders and Labradorians, along with increased competition in the financial marketplace. 3507 t.:

May 5,1981 Tape No. 1257 AH-1 MR. GOUDIE: Government's investment of these funds into the future of a sound public credit union development programme reflects the confidence which all of us have in the people of the Province to control, manage and develop their own resources. This progressive investment, at a time when there are so many compelling financial needs within the Province,highlights the importance which this government places upon provincial' control and jurisdiction over all our resources,including our financial and consumer credit strength.

It also reflects the confidence of government in the 38,000 people who comprise the co-operatives and credit union movement in all of Newfoundland and Labrador. This is the first in a series of decisions which government will be addressing to assist,within reason and discretion, in the enhancmdevelopment of the co-operative and credit union movement in the Province. I take pleasure today in making this important announcement and offer my congratulations to the people of the co-operative movement for all of the work which they have done to help make this decision both possible and practical.

And just as a footnote, Mr. Speaker, not included in the statement itself, just as an example of the type of financial strength which credit unions hold throughout this country is that on a national scale credit unions are recognized as the fifth strongest financial institution in Canada. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR.SPEAKER (Simms): MR.HISCOCK: Hear, hear! The hon. member for Eagle River. Mr. Speaker, I commend the co-operatives in this Province. As the minister pointed out, 38,000 members are now added to the largest credit unions in this Province who are now consolidating the resources so 3508 -:,"-

May 5,1981 Tape No. 1257 AH-2 MR. HISCOCK: they will have an asset of $23 million and are extending membership to 7,505 branches. The minister of this government is again getting into the cosmetic approach and trying to take credit for this merger that is becoming between these two credit unions • This cosmetic approach of $79o,oro in a five year plan, it sounds great, it sounds like the Council of Women's grant and the Arts Council grant, $790,000 in a grant consolidating these two credit unions.

One would go on to assume that these credit unions would not be able to merge with an asset of $23 million if they never had this $160,000 a year. SOME HON .MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HISCOCK: So, Mr. Speaker, it is a great move on behalf of these two credit unions and I commend the credit unions for taking this progressive step.

But as for the government trying to get on the tail of these two credit unions and their merger to say that it is a result of this $160,000 cosmetic approach that it is getting, then, Mr.Speaker, I do not think the credit unions- in actual fact I think they would be a little bit upset by the fact that a Ministerial Statement is coming out in such a way as to take credit for .this merger. This side again has pioneered- SOME HON.MEMBERS: oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. HISCOCK: -this government has pioneered in the matter of co-ops in this Province and we will continue to press in this matter.

We have many advancements in agriculture and fisheries and in credit unions and co-ops in this Province. So, Mr. Speaker, this side supports this merger of these two credit unions but unfortunately not as the result of the government's initiative. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 3509

.. May 5, 1981 Tape 1258 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! May I - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! We have in the galleries - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! We have in the galleries today visiting us, twenty-two Grade IX students from Stella Marie High School in Trepassey, representing both the districts of Ferryland and St. Mary's - The Capes. We hope they enjoy their visit. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: I would also like to welcome to the galleries two delegations from the Terra Nova district, namely, a delegation from the Town Council of Musgravetown, represented by the Mayor, Mr. Alfred Saint,and councillor Mr. Charles Butt; also, a delegation from the Port Blandford to Winter Brook World Development Association, represented by the President, Mr. Ewart Hall, co-ordinator, Mr. Day, and members, Mr. Max Gill and Mr. Herbert Hounsell. We welcome them today as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Further statements? DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR.

COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have two statements related to collective bargaining and I would ask members of the House to permit me to read them in succession. MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: Agreed? Agreed. Agreed. The first statement refers to the strikes that had been in progress at C.T.T. and W.C.B. 3510

May 4, 1981 Tape 1258 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House at this time of the details of the settlement reached with employees of the NAPE bargaining units at the College of Tradesand Technology and the Workers' Compensation Board. AN HON. MEMBER: I cannot hear you. DR. COLLINS: A new twenty-seven month agree- ment has now been entered into which provides for the following increases - and the dates quoted here refer to the C.T.T. unit.

The W.C.B. unit is slightly different dates, but it is essentially the same agreement. 'April 1, 1980: $1,000 or 8 per cent, whichever is greater; January 1, 1981: $100 on all salary scales; step advancement on the salary scales for employees who qualify; cash bonuses in lieu of employees at the top of their salary scales; April 1, 1981: a 5 per cent increase on all salary scales.

On the date of signing, there· will be a $300 cash payment to each employee; October 1, 1981: a 6.5 per cent increase to all salary scales; January 1, 1982: $100 on all salary scales; step advancement on salary scales for employees who qualify; cash bonuses in lieu of employees at the top of their salary scales; April 1, 1982: $100 increase to all salary scales; June 30, 1982, the contract expires.' Mr.

Speaker, this settlement provides for an increase of about 27.5 per cent over twenty-seven months as compared to about 23 per cent over twenty-four months under government's previous position as an average increase. 3 511

. I r May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1259 so - 1 DR. COLLINS: Because of the staggered introduction of the increases 1 the cost to government will increase less than a half per cent during the first two years of this settlement as compared to the same period under government's previous offer. While the settlement provides for higher scale increases, it also provides a longer term and employees in bargaining units with whom these groups traditionally relate will receive I i increases achieved in the next round of bargaining three months earlier than these groups. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to make a statement now with regard to the teachers. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! Was it not my understanding there was agreement to do both statements? MR. NEARY: One at a time, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I am sorry, there was no agreement. That was my understanding as well. The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, the workers have agreed to the particular items in the contract enunicated by the ministeD, so quite obviously we also naturally agree with the contract that has been agreed to by the workers concerned.

Of course, what this statement does not say, what this statement omits to point out, is the tremendous anxiety and frustration and bitterness that was caused in the settlement of this strike . MR. FLIGHT: What face to get up in this House today. MR. LUSH: What this statement doesnot indicate Mr. Speaker, what this statement does not enunciate, , what this statement does not emphasize - R. MOORES: Like a robber's horse,I tell you. MR. LUSH: - is the tremendous erosion th.at has taken place with respect to the collective bargaining 3512

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1259 so - 2 MR. LUSH: process in this Province by the uncompromising attitude of the government in keeping these workers for eight months - SOME HON . MEMBERS: MR. LUSH: Hear, hear! -treated as dogs. I can only hope, Mr. Speaker, that for the sa.ke of labour in this Province, for the sake of the process of collective bargaining,that we never go through this kind of set of negotiations again.

And I would hope that the government will adopt a more conciliatory, a more harmonious attitude when it is negotiating with the teachers particularly right now who seem to be in a bad situation with the government . So I hope that the minister will take a lesson from what has transpired by the bitterness and by the animosity that took place \~ith this particular strike and will take a lesson from that and come to a quick resolution with the teachers. SOME HON. M.EMBERS : Hear, hear. 3513 . ....

May 5, 1981 Tape 1260 PK - 1 ~~, ~PEAKE~(MR. SIMMS): Further statements? The hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I should say I congratulate the workers on agreeing to this statement that I just read out. The next statement relates to the matter concerning the teachers. Mr. Speaker, I would like to comment on behalf of government on the status of P~gotiations with the NTA in respect of the Province's teachers. Negotiations between government and the school boards and the NTA held last week were unsuccessful in reaching a new collective agreement. MR. MOORES: Surprise Surprise ! DR.

COLLINS: The major issue in the disputes is salaries, although several other issues remaining outstanding. At the conclusion of the last round of talks,government's position remained the acceptance of the Conciliation Board Report which recommended increases of 9 per cent in each year of a two_year agreement. The NTA position was given to us at these talks at a total of 29 per cent over two years as follows; September 1, 1980,10 per cent; March 1, 1981,4 per cent; September 1, 1981 1 10 per cent; March 1, 1982, 5 per cent for a total of 29 per cent.

Increments and upgradings add another 1.5 per cent per annum to the cost of these positions, bringing the total increase in average salary over two years to approximately 21 per cent under government's proposal and 32 per cent under the NTA proposal. The impact of these differences in percentage increases on government's teachers' salary bill and the average teacher's salary are significant.Under the NTA proposal,the expenditure by government during the two year 3514

May 5, 1981 Tape 1260 PK - 2 OR. COLLINS: agreement on salaries and bonuses exceeds that required under the Conciliation Board recommendation by almost $24 million. Under the government proposal, the average teacher's salary would increase from $21,700 per annum at the beginning of the contract to over $26,500 per annum , a total salary scale increase of $4,800 over two years . The NTA proposal would see the average salary rise from $21,700 per annum to $29,000 per annum under the agreement, a total salary increase of $7,800 over two years. Mr.

Speaker, the fact that the demand of the NTA is significantly beyond the Province's fiscal capacity is self-evident. The ability of government to finance salary increases is directly related to the rate of growth in the government ' s revenue base . Public service salaries are paid, for the most part, out of current account revenues. The overall growth in revenues at the outset of the 1981 budgetary process was projected at less than 9 per cent and even after the various fiscal measures introduced in the budget were adopted, the growth rate is only slightly in excess of 10 per cent. 3515

May 5, l9.8l, Tape 126.l, Page . l -- apb DR. COLLINS: These revenue gro1.,rth rates give a general indicati .on of government's ability to finance improvements in public sector salary levels or other expenditure areas.

This: is· not to say that government can adopt any hard and fast rules with respect to salar y settlements for various: public sector groups, which must be arrived at by taking into account a large number of factors related to the individual group, as well as by examining the various interrelationships among the different groups, However, it is fair to say that the teachers' demands present government with a financial problem of such magnitude that we a r e unable to s·ee any immediate resolution, given the constraints of our fiscal capacity.

The increases being sought are also significantly beyond the type of settlements being achieved with other public sector employees. Government would urge both the NTA as well as individual teachers seriously to consider the financial constraints of the Province in deciding on their future course of action in the present labour di'spute. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon .. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, . it is amazing.

If this were the first group that this government attempted to negotiate with you could understand their taking such a naive or either naive - and I have, because of the rules in the House, assumed that they are very naive statements and certainly not the kind of statement that you would expect a Minister of Finance to give after just coming through . the fishermen's strike last year, and the NAPE strike this year, to now dare the teachers.

This is what they are doing on the eve of the vote, the y are daring the . teachers to go on strike, they are daring the teachers by saying that this information that is being presented is going to bankrupt the Province. They are trying to transfer 3516 ... r::

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1261 apb - 'J. MR. STIRLING: the blame to the teachersi attempt- ing to get public opinion against the teachers for the fact that this government has not managed the affairs of this Province properly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STIRLING: They have not developed this Prov- ince, they have not negotiated, they have not got some of the kinds of projects, they have not got the Labrador power projects that could have been going ahead a year ago. I~ here would the extra money come from? No agreement signed on highways.

And this government is attempting to now create the impression that because this government cannot manage properly, that they can­ not budget properly, they are now attempting to blame the teachers for bankrupting the Province. The mismanagement of this govern­ ment, the inability to plan, the inability to negotiate, the inability - to debate, Mr. Speaker . AN HON. MEMBER: You are debating. MR. STIRLING: Debate , Mr. Speaker! Mr. Speaker, this statement, if I were outside the Rouse I would use much stronger language because the Speaker 3 51 7

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1262 DW - 1 MR. L. STIRLING: has to maintain the rules of the House. Mr. Speaker, this statement by the minister dares the teachers to go on strike and it does nothing to let the people of the Province know what the government plans to do for all of the children in the Province who are now faced with this government daring the teachers to go on strike. Now, Mr. Speaker, this statement is definitely not acceptable to this side of the House. SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Hear, hear! Order, please!

I would like to ask hon. members to join me in welcoming to the galleries today a delega­ tion from the town of St. Anthony, Mayor Boyd Noel, Deputy Mayor Joseph Ollerhead and Councillor Charles Budgell. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Any further statements? ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile . MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Health (Mr. House). Would the minister care to inform the House if it is correct that the Premier wrote a letter, a personal letter,to the major hospitals in this Province, St.

Clare's, the Grace and other major hospitals,delivering an ultimatum to the hospi­ tals to cut their expenditure by four percent? Is this correct, that the Premier sent a letter out under his signa­ ture, A. Brian Peckford,and not under the Minister of Health's signature? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. 3518

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1262 DW - 2 MR. w. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge it is not correct. MR. s. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. s. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, have the hospitals, the major hospitals like St. Clare's and the Grace,been informed by the minister or by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) that they are to cut their expenditure this year by 4 per cent? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. W. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, yes, I have written the hospital boards, not the major hospitals, all the hospital boards.

The fact is I do not exactly know what - it is not cutting it by 4 per cent~ It is actually, .Mr. Speaker, actually the increase to the hospital board this year is just over 13 per cent. And the hon. member is giving the impression that it was cut back 4 per cent. I would say, yes, back 4 per cent·from their original request. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: As my hon. colleague states, 'That is sheer nonsense,' Mr. Speaker . Now has the hon.

Minister of Health been advised of the repercussions,of the hardship that these restraints are going to cause in the hospitals, in these major hospitals, especially St. Clare's and the Grace Hospitals? Has the minister had any meetings or been informed of the serious repercussions that these drast~c restraints are going to have upon the operations - MR. J. MORGAN: (Inaudible). MR. S. NEARY: I am talking to the Minister of Health (Mr. House) not the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan). The Minister of Fisheries is an expert on every department.

He is a know-all who knows everything about about every department except the fisheries of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 3519

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1262 ow - 3 MR. SPEAKER {Simms) : Order, please! Order, please : MR. S . NEARY: So, Mr . Speaker, I am asking the Minister of Health- if I can get his attentio .n for a moment - MR. ROBERTS: His understanding is difficult to get ,his attention is not. MR . S . NEARY: That is right. - if he would tell us about the meetings that he has held, if he has hAdany meetings with the administration of the hospitals to discuss the serious repercussions that these restrianst are to have on the major hopsitls here in this Province . ? 3520 .....

May 5, 1981 1"_"';• SPEAKER (~imm s): SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAl<ER: Tape No. 1263 NM - 1 The hon. Minister of Health. Oh, oh! Order, please! The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I said initially that I wrote all the hospital boards, They had made certain requests and we had cut them back by four per cent of what their requests were. And the fact is all hospitals, and I do not say this as a general thing because there may be some a little up on account of programmes that had to be annualized, but something in the vicinity of just between thirteen and fourteen per cent increase.

I wrote letters and I asked them to respond to me about what this would mean in regard to their programmes and when I would get the information back from them I would be meeting with them again. And while this is not necessarily a normal process-- the normal process is for us, as a department, to meet and negotiate and discuss budgets with every hospital board, and this will be done. I will be dis­ cussing any repercussions, but we are not anticipating any. It is not meant to have to cut back on any services. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR. NEARYr: A supplementary, the hon. member Mr.

Speaker, would the hon. gentleman undertake to table all the correspondence between his department and the major hospitals in connection with this matter? I am told, Mr. Speaker, that the hospitals will be now forced to use old, torn-up linen; they will have to use old gloves,that should be thrown away in surgery; there will not be enough nurses. 3521 ...

May 5, 1981 MR. NEARY: to - MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Tape No. 1263 NM - 2 There will not be enough nurses A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The very purpose of the Question Period is to ask questions, not for the hon. member to give information, unfounded as it may be. MR. SPEAKER: Well,that is quite accurate. If .the hon. member has a question,I would ask him to ask it. MR. NEARY: Well, is the hon. member aware of what the four per cent cut has done to the morale of the hospitals?

Is the minister aware that the major hospitals like St. Clare's will not be able to hire Summer staff this year, staff to replace nurses who go on vacation? They will not be able to hire any extra staff. And is the hon. gentleman aware that in the emergency units of some of these hospitals they do not know have properly trained staff, only one trained person in one hospital that I know of, to operate the respirators and so forth, one trained person and the number of respirators is being reduced to five? MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: this? MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

Is the hon. gentleman aware of On a point of order. Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Perhaps it might be as well to refer to Beauchesne, the Fifth edition, on questions, A prohibited question could be hypothetical, "contains inferences, contains imputations, but most of all be a speech however short, nor be of unreasonable length~' Well, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is making a speech obviously within the parameters of 3522

May 5 , 1981 Tape No . 1263 NM - 3 MR. MARSHALL: Question Period. It is not permitted. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : With respect to the point of order, it is an accurate point of order. Also I might add that with respect to asking supplementary questions, there should not be any need for lengthy

preamble and this I believe is the third supplementary question the hon . member has risen to ask. I would direct him to ask his question. I believe he bas asked a question, or several questions there1 maybe he has completed the asking of his question. But certainly it should be as brief as possible. MR . NEARY: There were three or four questions there in one but the final part of the question, Mr. Speaker, is is the hon. gentleman 3523

May 5, 1981 Tape 1264 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: aware that these hospitals like St. Clare's do not have enough staff now, cannot afford to hire enough staff, to cover all the shifts, enough trained staff? MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned, I have contacted the hospitals. Our assessment is that they - you know, in determining the budget, we think that they can carry on without any cut backs and we have asked them to give us information as to how they can handle it under this particular percentage cut. And I am getting that information back.

We do not anticipate - you know, the hon. member making state­ ments about using old sheets and this kind of thing, I think is utter nonsense. MR. NEARY: MR. HOUSE: I am asking you if that is true. It is utter nonsense. That has not come to my attention. And, incidentially, I have received information back from a lot of the hospital boards now and that is not the kind of information that I am getting. The information that went out was reasonably straightforward.

It stated that, you know, they were asking for something like a 17 per cent, 17.5 per cent increase in operating budgets and we tried to cut it back to between 13.5 per cent and 14 per cent and we asked them what they would do in order to meet that. We have no thought of them cutting back on any of the services. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for the Strait Mr. Speaker, another question to the Minister of Health, growing out of his answer. Would he tell us the nature of the 17 per cent increase which he tells 3524

May 5, 1981 Tape 1264 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: us the hospital boards requested? Was that figure one which included any new or expanded services or was that figure the estimate that the hospital boards put forward as to what they would need to operate at the presently existing levels of service? Now, I trust the minister has grasped the question, in which case perhaps he would give us the answer. And I could phrase it another way just to make sure the minister gets it: Is the 4 per cent, cut back from 17 per cent to 13 per cent,that he has told us about, is that a cut back below presently existing levels of service?

Because we all know it will cost more this year to provide the same level of service that was provided last year. MR. SPEAKER ( Simms ) : The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, these budgets are done on an individual hospital basis.

It is done by a team visiting the hospitals throughout the Province during the first part of the fiscal year, and this 17 per cent, as far as I can gather - and I would have to say that I cannot be certain about it - but the 13.5 to 14 per cent is what we would anticipate to take care of existing services and 1 in some cases, some programmes that have to be annualized this year because of the late start last year. 3525

May 5, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Tape No. 1265 SD - 1 The hon. member for the Strait A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The minister did not answer the question. Now I ask him again, the hospitals have given him their estimates which he tells us are 17 per cent over last year in dollar amounts. Would he tell us whether that is their estimate of what they need? I am as familiar as the minister is with what goes on in the Health Department budgeting process.

Would he tell us whether it is their estimate of what they need for their delivering the services, what they need to provide this year to the people of this Province the same level of services as last year - yes or no? MR. SPEAKER: MR. HOUSE: The hon. Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, I told the hon. member, I told this hon. House, that I was not totally aware of - MR. ROBERTS: We know the minister is not totally aware. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the estimates that they made were 17 per cent above and we felt that they could give the same service as last year - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. HOUSE: - with about 13 per cent. MR. STILRLING: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge). Now that we have had this challenge to the teachers delivered by the President of the Treasury Board (Dr. Collins) challenging them to go on strike 1 we can presume that the teachers will have no other choice but to accept that challenge because of the insulting matter MR. MARSHALL: SOME HON. MEMBERS: A point of order, Mr.Speaker. Oh., oh. 3526

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1265 SD - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! The members seem to be in a very frisky mood today, There is a point of order raised by the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: cannot have it their way. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker,the hon. gentlemen Oh, oh. Order, please! There are rules that govern the conduct of the House and one of them is that questions are not to contain imputations. The hon. gentleman is raising a question to the hon. Minister of Education (Ms.

Verge) which contains an obvious imputation,that is,an imputation as to the intent of a statement made by the hon. the President of the Treasury Board (Dr. Collins). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. MARSHALL: That is his own subjective judgement of the nature and the effect of the statement and is an imputation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: there were no imputations. Oh, oh. Order, please! To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! The hon. member for Port au Port. To that point of order, Mr. Speaker, What the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Stirling) was saying was fact. And this is the third time that the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshalll stood up today with spurious points of order to interfere with . the Question Period,which is only a half an hour, Mr. Speaker, and if he would allow this side of the House to get on with the Question Period then we would probably get scme information. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 3527

May 5, 1 981 Tape No . 1265 SD - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : With respect to the point of order, obviously a question should not be argumentative in any event because that clearly is outlined in Beauchesne . The hon. members asking questions are permitted a slight

preamble . I believe the hon . Leader of the Opposition has had a slig ht preamb l e, Now if he has a question I would direct him to ask his question . The hon . Leader of the Opposition . MR. STI LRING : Thank you, Mr . Speaker . I n

summary then, in view of a statement made by the President of the Treasury Board (Dr . Col l ins), would the Minist e r of Educat i on (Ms . Verge) outline for the benefit of this House what st eps she has tak en to as sure the paren t s of t his Province and the students of this Province that they are not going to become the victim s of thi s u nrea sonable dispute caused by this government? SOME RON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 3528 ......

May 5, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (MR. SIMMS): MS. VERGE: Tape 1266 PK - 1 The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, there are three parties to this dispute and the government as one party is doing all in its power to see that a reasonable and fair - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MS. VERGE: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: of the Province will - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! -contract is reached. Oh, oh! Order, please! That is the key to ensuring that - Oh, oh! Order, please! - the students and the parents Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

It is very difficult to hear answers, and I presume when members ask questions they want to hear to answers, but it is very difficult when there is a great deal of disorder in the House. And I would ask hon. members to please restrain themselves and let us get on with the Question Period. The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, reaching a fair and satisfactory and reasonable agreement with the teachers,which will be in the best interest of all the taxpayers we represent, is the key to ensuring that students will not have their classes or their education interrupted, and government is doing all within its power to see that that is achieved. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. Hear, hear! A supplementary. A supplementary. 3529 The hon.

May 5, 1981 Tape 1266 PK - 2 MR. STIRLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, it is because of insulting answers like that that you get people aroused on this side of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! AN HON. MEMBER: Sure. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): Order, please! MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: There is no point in the hon. Leader of the Opposition making comments on a ruling. That is not allowed either. I would ask him to direct his question, please. MR. STIRLING: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker - Order, please!

The Speaker, of course, has the absolute right to interpret anything, but it was not a comment on the Speaker's ruling, Mr. Speaker. I certainly would not want to - MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. member has a question I would direct him to ask his question, please? MR. STIRLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The question I would like to ask the minister is would she be specific in setting out for the benefit of the students - MR. FLIGHT: And the parents. MR. STIRLING: - we are either going to have a settlement,in which case there is no problem, the President of the Treasury Board (Dr.

Collins) has already set out that they are not prepared to make a settlement. The question is, assuming that there is now going to be a strike 1 would the minister please set out for the benefit of the students and the parents what contingency plans can be made to reassure the students that they have not wasted a year's work and what plans have been set out to make sure that they get their grades 3530 ..

May S, 1981 Tape 1266 Pk - 3 MR. STIRLING: and that they are going to be promoted next year? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR . SPEAKER (SIMMS): M$ . VERGE: Oh, oh! The hon. Minister of Education . Mr . Speaker, the President of Treasury Board (Dr. Collins) for government have repeatedly indicated the willingness of government to continue bargaining , to continue negotiating to reach a satisfactory settlement in this dispute . And I along with, I think, the parents and t he students of the Province trust that will be possible . As for a year's school work being wasted,that certain~y wi~l not be the case.

People have done their work from September until now in their school year, it has been a successful year, and there really is not any point of speculating what might happen if classes are interrupted. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MS. VERGE: \ie trust that that will not be necessary. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STIRLING: A supplementary. 35 31 c:

May 5, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : of the Opposition. MR.STIRLING: Tape No. 1267 AH-1 A supplementary. The hon. Leader Mr. Speaker, this is the same kind of situation that caused the government to sit on their hands all through the fishermen's strike last Summer , all the while hoping that something would happen.

Now I ask the minister 1 based on the little bit of information that she has given,can she at least assure the students and assure the parents that if a strike does go ahead that she will take the action that is necessary to guarantee those students that they will be given full credit for the work that they have done this year and they will be promoted and their problems set aside next year? Would she give the assurance that that is going to be done? MR.SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Education. l-IS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, again I am really not predicting that there is going to be any interruption in classes.

Certainly students will get credit for the school work they have done until now in . this school year, of course they will. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity- Bay de Verde. MR.F.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, in view of the high likelihood . of a strike because of the attitude of the government thus far, could the Minister of Education (Ms.Verge) indicate to the House whether she has made any suggestions to the NTA to take care of the serious situation that will be created within the Grade XI level this year? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MsVERGE: Mr.

Speaker, public examinations in our Province are required for Grade Xl students for 3532 ~ ·

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1267 AH-2 MS. VERGE: high school graduation. These public exams det~rmine half the Grade XI student's final marks, the other half being based on the year's work as evaluated by the teachers in their own schools. Public exams are set, administered and marked quite independent of the collective agreement with the NTA. MR. THOMS: We know that. Why do you not answer the question? We know that. MS.

VERGE: Recently a new salary or remunera­ tion rate for the marking of the public exams was established to the satisfaction of the teachers and we are hopeful that public exams will be carried out as usual, that Grade XI students will complete their year's work and be given credit for the successful completion of their courses and graduate from high school. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! A supplementary. The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, we know all that, but can the minister assure this House of what steps she has taken to assure - or can she indicate to this House whether there will be public examinations this year, and whether or not there will be a marking board this year, and whether or not, if there is a long strike, the students in Grade XI, who presumably pass their Grade XI, would get a diploma to show if they have completed Grade XI? What steps is she taking in that direction? 3533 ·~ ·

May 5, 1981, Tape l268, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. THOMS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Education. MS. VERGE: The hon. the Minister - Oh, oh.~' Ab.., shut up, maw·-mouth ... Oh., oh! Order, please .!' Oh, oh! Order, please! · Order 1 please! The hon. the M£nister of Mr. Speaker, I think the whole tenor of the series of questi .ons that h.ave been addressed to me is very disturbing, it indicates a certain expectation of a strike on the part of the teachers and I think it is destructive. I think . most of the people we all represent in this hon.

House very much. hope that a strike will not be necessary and that a satisfactory contract will be settled. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. F.B.ROWE: If y ou want to hear something destructive, Mr. Speaker, if the minister - MR. SPEAKER: MR. F.B.ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. F.B.ROWE: have any contingency plans - MR. SPEAKER: MR. F.B.ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary? Yes, a supplementary. A supplementary? - if the minister does not A supplementary? A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde has a supplementary · quest£on. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. F.B.ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, does the minister realize that it would be much. more disturbing and much more destructive if she has no contingency plans in th.e likelihood of a long•drawn-out strike this Summer? I am asking this 3534 ...·

May 5, 1981, Tape 1263, Page 2 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: questions: Are there going to be public examinations or are there not, if there is a long strike? Will there be a marking ooard? And will the students get a diploma or will they not get a diploma? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER(Simms): MS. VERG.E : Hear, hear! The hon. the Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, I already explained in response to the earlier question that the public exams have nothing to do with the collective agreement • The public exams are set, they are administered and they are marked by teachers - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MS.

VERGE: separate and apart - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: agreement. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: I am not sure, I could not hear. Eucation. MS. VERGE : Oh, oh! Order, please!· - under arrangement~ qu£te Oh, oh~ Order, please! - from the collective Oh, oh~ Order, pleas·e . ~ Order, please .! Oh, oh~ Order, plea~e !' Order, please: · Is the non. Mini~er finished? The hon. the Minister of Mr.

Speaker, I am simply making the point that public exams which are given in our Province now for only Grade XI students, unlike former years, and which determine half the final mark in Grade XI for high school graduation, are given and administered and marked by teachers under arrangements which are quite separate from the collective agreement. The public exams have no bearing on the present dispute. 3535

May 5, 1981, Tape 1268, Page 3 -- apb SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS)_: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: My supplementary, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, pleas ·e !' Order, please! MR. FLIGHT: My supplementary to the minister, Mr. Speaker, is we all know we are withln days of a strike vote that may or may not indicate a strike. The parents do not know, the students . do not know ·, and obviously the minister does not know.

But one of the big concerns that I find, from parents in particular, Mr, Speaker, to the minister, is in the event the outcome of that vote . means a strike, there may be a strike, will the students be required, and only the :ninister makes this deci .sion, not the NTA, not the schools boards, the minister, is there a possibility the students will be required to return to school during the Summer to make up for any time they may have lost as a result of a strike? Will the minister in her capacity as the administrator indicate that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Mini.ster of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, there is no arrangement, no plan, no intention to have classes for kindergarten to high school in the Summer. It is not felt that that would be possible, practical or desired by students or parents. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HISCOCK; Mr. Speaker. 3536

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1269 DW-1 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: My question is to the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge). The average teacher's salary - it is here in the average teacher's salary - how does the minister and the Department of Education get at the averaging? Is this the classroom? Or is it also the school board officials, the supervisors, their superintendents, the principals? And that this here is a deception to deceive the public into thinking that the majority of the teachers in this Province are getting $21,000.

In actual fact they are not getting that at all, they are not even near it. MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, the total salary bill for all teachers, that is all members of the New­ foundland Teachers's Association, classroom teachers, subject teachers, specialist teachers, principals, school board co-ordinators, assistant superintendents and superintendents - the last of whom, of course, are not in the NTA- all of these teachers, totalling 7,800 in our Province, were paid collectively last year $189 million­ plus.

If you take that total salary bill of $189 million­ plus and divide by the total number of teachers of all descriptions, you get an average salary of more than $21,000, it is over $23,000. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor- Buchans has a supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: The minister has indicated that there is no possibility that the students would go back to school. Now let me ask the minister this particularly inasfar as Grade XI is concerned: Assuming there is a loss of time of three weeks as a result of a strike 3537 , .

·' May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1269 DW - 2 MR. G. FLIGHT: vote,how will the students be prepared with the curriculum to cope with a Grade XI exam that has already been pre­ pared? The Grade XI exams in this Province have already been pre­ pared based on a curriculum that ends on June 15th. ,for instance. How will those Grade XI students be prepared to write that exam having missed three weeks of that curriculum? Would the minister indicate to me, particularly inasfar as the Grade XI's are concerned? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MS. VERGE: The hon. the Minister of Education Mr.

Speaker, I think my answers to the previous questions cover this ground as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MS. VERGE: Every effort is being taken by government to reach a satisfactory agreement with the teachers. We certainly hope that interruption in classes for Grade XI or any other grade will not happen and we are not basing our present actions on that expectation. MR. G. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member Mr. Speaker, we have agreed in the Province there may be a strike.

And in the event there is a strike the Grade XI students may lose three weeks of a curriculum, three weeks of school. If there is no strike there is no problem,but if there is a strike there is a problem. How will the Grade XI students, without going back to school after school closes, be prepared to write an exam that is based on a curriculum out of which they have lost three weeks, Mr. Speaker? How will the minister guarantee that those students are in a position to write an exam in Grade XI that is based on a curriculum out of which they lost three weeks in the event of a strike?

Now that is not a fantasy thing, Mr. Speaker, that is facts. If there is a strike they are going to lose time. 3538 .. ·~

May 5, 1981 Tape 1270 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Education. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the hon. the member for Exploits is getting his three week figure,but- M.R. FLIGHT: Or four weeks or five. AN HON. MEMBER: ~1S. VERGE: You mean vlindsor-Buchans . WindiSor-Buch~n"l, I <t!!l sorr'! Exams may be set at any time between now and when they are actually administered. You know, there are a lot of arrangements for evaluating Grade XI students' work.

As I explained already, the present system is one of shared evaluation where half the mark is based on the year's work in any case and there are a number of students in our Province who do not take the public exams. MR. FLIGHT: All Grade XI does. MS VERGE: There are a number of options which are open for evaluating Grade XI - MR. FLIGHT: All Grade XIs write your exams. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, I want to change the subject for a minute and get back to something a little more basic. I would like to ask the President of the Council (Mr.

Marshall) when we can expect to have the Mahoney Royal Commission Report tabled in this House. If hon. members will recall, we were told before the House rose that the Cabinet would study it for two or three weeks and then it would be tabled in the House. When can we expect to have the Mahoney report tabled, the report which, as members know, investigated the wrongdoing and the skulduggery and the corruption that went on in the provincial Department of Public Works for the last ten years in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Executive Council. 3539

May 5, 1981 Tape 1270 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member and this House can be assured that the government will be tabling that report very shortly. It is in the process o f final consideration right now. And the han. member can rest his cotton-pickin' little soul in patience, Mr. Speaker, because this government does not sit on reports - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: - does not sit on Royal Commission reports, not like the one t~."' hon. gentleman sat on with respect to the Holiday Inns in 1971, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: This government puts the reports - any reports that come in are tabled. The Mahoney report is in the process of its final stages of consideration and will be tabled in a very short period of time. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : The hon. the member for Lewisporte. We have time for one supplementary question. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary for the - okay, one question. It is for the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) and it has to do with sitting on reports. A year ago, Mr. Speaker, just as a

preamble, an RCMP investigation was ordered into the Devine contract. That was one year ago, Mr . Speaker, and the RCMP told the media this morning that their recommendations as a result of that investigation were presented to the government six months ago. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. WHITE: Now, where are the RCMP recommendations with respect to that and what action is the government going to take? SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR .• SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. 3540

May 5, 1981. Tape 1270 EC - 3 MR. MA.RSHALL: Mr . Speaker, the hon. gentleman - no\.,. , this is where hon . gentlemen opposite ask questions that contain imputations. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh ! MR . MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I have not heard ~hat a.ny member of the RCMP is alleged to have said , but the report on Devine Advertising is in its final stages, as well, of consideration . It is not the RCMP, Mr. Speaker, neither is it in this administration,any 35 41 · ~ .:;.,..

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1271 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: member of this government, neither will it be any member of the Opposition that will or will not decide whether criminal charges are to be laid in any instance. This is to be decided, Mr. Speaker, at all times by the Director - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL : - by the Director of Public Prosecutions. Otherwise, Mr. Speaker, you have a certain unenviable state in a society whereby people can get pro­ secuted for political purposes or political expediencey. MR. NEARY: (Inaudiblel. MR.

MARSHALL: As the hon. gentleman there opposite would love to have certain people treated. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) last couple of years. MR. MARSHALL: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER (Simms).: The hon. Minister of Forest, Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to give an answer to a question asked this morning in Committee. It is related to the Forest Access Road Programme. The following forest access road programmes will be tendered for my department over the next several weeks.

Bloomfield - 2.5 kilometers, plus a bridge; Twin Brooks- 4.0 kilometers; Bellman's Pond- 5.7 kilometers; Weir's Pond - 1.6 kilometers; and Barrisway- 4.5 kilometers. Other roads will be constructed in the current construction season. MR. HODDER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAI<ER: Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. member for Port au Port. 3542

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1271 NM - 2 MR. HODDER: This seems to be an unusual procedure. In the past whenever a question was asked in one of the committees then it was answered in committee. But the minister is answering the question in the House. I have not heard that procedure before, Mr. Speaker. I would ask the Speaker to rule on this extraordinary occurrence. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Well, the Chair must plead some ignorance here. I did not hear the

preamble. I called for Answers To Question for Which Notice Has Been Given, I presume that is what the minister was doing. If he was not doing that then that is a different matter. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, this morning in Committee there was a question asked on forest access roads on which we did not have the material available. I took notice of it and said I woulq in turn give it to the House. AN HON. MEMBER: Is the Committee finished? MR. POWER: MR. SPEAKER: your estimates? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes. Our estimates are passed. Is the Committee finished reviewing Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I will take that matter under advisement. Any further answers to questions? 3543

May 5, 19.81 Tape No. 1271 NM - 3 ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER (.Simms) : Motion one, the Budget debate. Yesterday the debate was adjouned by the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, when I was interrupted yesterday, I had completed a few preliminary remarks. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: After the performance we have seen from the ministry today - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: - I do not find it strange that anybody is leaving, I find it strange that anybody stayed. MR.

SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member. MR. ROBERTS: Has Your Honour got something to say or was that the limit of Your Honour's intervention? MR. SPEAKER: I was just ~rying to get order. MR. ROBERTS: I am grateful to Your Honour. I do ' not know why it is; I get up to say a few mild mannered 'iTOrds of gentlemanly rebuke to the ladies and gentlemen opposite and they get all uptight. The Minister of Education (Ms. Verge), as nice a soul as ever trod the floor in here,is all uptight today. And the President of the Council (Mr.

Marshall) 1 who is the milk of human kindness personified, is up making nasty references to imputations. I mean,what is wrong with this crowd? Of course, that is the star~ is it not? That is the story. MR. NEARY: They are on the verge. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I find myself in a bit of a dilemma here to say I had finished a number of introductory remarks and sketched in a preliminary way some of the points which I wanted to make, but I have got something else I have got to do today in the interest of a certain voluntary 3544 , .. r:

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1271 NM - 4 MR . ROBERTS: group with which I am proud to be associated. So I shall draw my remarks at this stage to a close fairly quickly . I know that is much to the regret of my friend from Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) who has so littl e to entertain him that he has to try to make poor sport with poor me . But there is some hope because I shall not be moving an amendment but I think my friend from LaPoile (Mr . Neary) has been persuaded to leap into the breach and he will be - I believe particularly if either the gentleman from Stephenville or the gentleman from St. John's North (Mr .

Carter), or even the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) invites him, the member for LaPoile may be pre­ pared to move a modest amendment to a very immodest budget, and that will give of course all of us the opportunity to say a few modest things again. Now, Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to say one or two thinqs . 3545

May 5, 1981 Tape 1272 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: First of all, I wanted to say to the gentleman from The Daily News, to prove that I at least read his copy this morning,that I did not say, and I am not asking for any correction, I just want to be clear that all understand, I did not say-and Hansard will support this and verify it-that I prefer Mr. Levesque 's separatism to the Premier of this Province's separattsm .. What I did say was that Mr. Levesque at least had the intellectual integrity, the intellectua~ honesty to say outright that he is a separatist. And I simply want to have that stand. I do prefer Mr.

Levesque's honesty, intellectual honesty to the Premier's prevarication. The Premier has made- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: - statements two or three times and then he is - MR. J. CARTER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. ROBERTS: This is unparliamentary. Hear, hear! It is perfectly parliamentary, Mr . Speaker. It is the truth, and truth is a defense, truth is an absolute defense in libel, in slander, and even to the hon. gentleman for St. John's North (Mr. Carter). Now, Mr. Speaker, having said that I will resist the temptation to take a part the Minister of Health (Mr .

House) because he will do that to himself, in political terms, but he has not given us the information that he had ought to have given us with respect to the hospitals. My suspicion,and it is confirmed by the minister's evasive and vague answers to the questions posed to him today, my belief based on that is that the government have ordered a minimum of 4 per cent cutback, And the mi.ni.ster may t;~;:y to fudge the point or he may not even realize he is. fudgi,ng tb.e point when he says that that is a cutback from their requests. 3546

May 5, 1981 Tape 1272 PK - 2 ~R. ROBERTS: I suggest to Your Honour and to the House that 17 per cent figure of which the minister spoke is the amount that the hospitals have put in as being the a~ount which they need to operate during this current fiscal year without any cutback in services or personnel. MR. NEARY: That is correct. MR. ROBERTS: Of course it is an increase over last year. The wages have gone up, the cost of everything has gone up, the government have put up the cost of i1ydro, the cost of all the supplies have gone up, the cost of the wages have gone up.

And I would suggest that a 4 per cent cutback will mean a cutback in services, or a cutback in personnel, or both. And I would hope the Minister of Health (Mr. House) participates in this debate, and I would hope when he does so he tells us the full complete and accurate story without trying to fudge around because it will come out.

I have heard myself, since there was some recent publicity in the House about some questions I had asked, I have heard from eight or ten of the hospitals, informally, of course, not officially, but nonetheless we have phones and our numbers are listed; unlike the Premier's, every member of the Opposition has a listed phone and one does get phone calls, one does get information, and the information is that the hospitals are going to have to cut back this year. It is not simply a matter of not expanding, which is what the Minister of Health tried to convey.

My understanding is that it is a matter of cutback because the amount the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) has requested is not enough. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. ROBERTS: And of course, Mr. Speaker, that has yet nothing to do with the harsh reality which the Minister of 3547

May 5, 1981 Tape 1272 PK - 3 MR. ROBERTS: Finance (Dr. Collins) must contend with, and that is the fact that the nurses are negotiating, the hospital workers are negotiating, and the x-ray and laboratory technologists are negotiating, and I understand those negotiations are going to be very, very tough indeed in a monetary, in a financial sense. And, of course, the whole burden of what I said yesterday was to show conclusively that this government is making a bed to lie in, and it is a very rocky and uncomfortable bed. AN HON. MEMBER: Rotten too. MR. CARTER: What would you suggest? MR.

ROBERTS: What would I suggest? I would suggest 0'- ~government, Sir, I say to my friend for St. John's North (Mr. Carter), a government that is first of all concerned with the people of this Province; and secondly, capable to deal with the problems of the people of this Province, and be prepared to work. And I would suggest that all three of those are not present in the present administration. AN HON. MEMBER: They are Liberals. MR. ROBERTS: That is what I would suggest. AN HON. MEMBER: All right. MR.

ROBERTS: And if the hon. gentleman wants to know how to get that I would simply say to him that since he is so intimate with the present Premier, so close to certain portions of the present Premier,that the very least he should do is advise the present Premier to call an election, and let us let the people decide, any time. SOME HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: The Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) erupted . . DR. COLLINS: A death wish. MR. ROBERTS: A death ~ish. Yes, it would be a death wish on the Premier's part. I concur entirely. It would be a death wish on the Premier's part. 3548

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1273 so - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: Nothing would give me more pleasure,and I am sure nothing would give more pleasure to any of my colleagues or to the people of this Province,with the exception of thirty-three temporary MHAs than to know that an election had been called. Now, Mr. Speaker, I do want to touch on one or two other things. HR. CARTER: In which district would you run? I am sorry, the hon. gentleman MR. ROBERTS: erupts again. MR. CARTER: The hon. gentleman, Sir, erupts himself regularly. Where would you run? MR.

ROBERTS: Unlike the hon. gentleman, I have been elected in every district in which I have run. SOII-lE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to talk about just one or two other things very briefly. First of all, the news that the NAPE workers have made a settlement is very welcome to all of us. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR.

ROBERTS: I think I voice the sentiments of most people in Newfoundland and Labrador when I say that the people are angry with the government for making these workers stay out for seven and eight months and they went back to work for an offer that the government could have made them at the start. MR. WARREN: Hear, hear. MR. ROBERTS: But if ever there was a case of a group of men and women callously, coldly, cruelly treating a group of fellow Newfoundlanders, people who are on the very low end of the economic scale ,then that case is shown by this government's treatment of those workers. MR. WARREN: Hear, hear. MR.

ROBERTS: We will see what the government does now with other groups of workers, we will see what the government 3549

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1273 SD - 2 MR. ROBERTS: does with groups of men and women who perhaps have more clout in the economic or in the political sense or in the social sense. Of course, the only party to which this government subscribes is a cocktail party. We will see how they treat these people and we will compare it with how they treated the workers at the college and the workers at the WCB. MR. WARREN: Hear, hear. MR. ROBERTS: These workers, I think we all admire them~ they stuck to their guns with courage and the diginity in the face of provocation - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. ROBERTS: - and they won.

They won a victory, they won a monetary victory and,even more importantly, they won a moral victory. And I would say to the Minister of Finance(Dr. Collins) that if it was not for his pig-headed attitude and the pig-heated attitude of the perpetual pooh-bah from Pleasantville (Mr. Dinn) that strike could have been settled months ago - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. ROBERTS: - and on the same terms.

And I say to the Minister of Finance further that if he persists in that kind of attitude he and his colleagues are going to drive the teachers of this Province out on strike: The kind of attitude we saw in this House today, the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge), the same lady who said, 'Well, teachers need a challenge,' Boy~ How many teachers have come up to me and said that they are going to challenge the Minister of Education, they are going to challenge her! What was the phrase? - the teachers welcome Grade Xll, they need a challenge,they do not have enough to do. AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. MR.

ROBERTS: Oh boy! That tells a great deal about the minister and it tells a great deal about the 3550

May 5, 1981 MR. ROBERTS: associated. Tape No. 1273 so - 3 administration of which she is MR. NEARY: over-paid and under-worked,she also made that statement. MR. ROBERTS : I beg your pardon. MR. NEARY: Over-paid and under-worked. MR. · ROBERTS: She said that too, they are over-paid and under-worked?·well 1 we will find out. So that is ahead. it is a time for the government of this Province to come to grips with reality.

It is time for them, for example, to pay heed to groups like the Newfoundland Medical Association which has made it perfectly clear there is not enough money in the budget to operate our health services this year. It is time for the government to come to grips with statements such as those made by the President of the University, Dr. Morgan, who has made it perfectly clear that there is not enough in the budget to enable the university to operate at its present level of services. DR. COLLINS: What should we do, print it? MR. ROBERTS: I beg your pardon? DR. COLLINS: Do you want us to print it? MR.

ROBERTS: The hon. member suggests, ' What should we do, print it?'. I think they .should start by getting the economy of this Province going. They should start by supporting some policies that do work. MR. MORGAN: That is the Liberal way. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the unemployment, N'hen we look at all the economic indicators, the unemployment was never as nigh during the Liberal years in this Province as in the Tory years, never, not ever, not once. Taxes were never as high, AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: MR. CARTER: Not once. Not once, not ever. Burn your boats. 3551

.. May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1273 so - 4 MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker, the gentleman is not for burning,unfortunately. I want to touch on just one other point. The report of the Public Accounts Committee~ it is too bad the President of the Council {Mr. Marshall) is not here but I hope he is within earshot 1 if he is not within the House. .1\N HON. MEMBER: {Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: Well the Minister of Finance {Dr. Collins) is a very poo.r substitute for many things, including the President of the Council.

The Public Accounts Committee report informed us, and in fact it simply reminded us in this instance,that the Minister of Justice {Mr. Ottenheimer) a year passed had said that a police investigation was being made into a contract that had been awarded by the gov~rnment. In fact the minister, if my memory serves me correctly, ordered that investigation to be made,as is his prerogative and as is his duty.

We are now told that the report of the poli .ce, the report of their investigation, has been in the hands of the minister or his officials;- .and it matters not a wit or a hoot, we can only deal with the minister, we cannot deal with the officials ever since the Crickle(Oo'Wn case-and the minister might care to look at that 3552

May 5, 1981, Tape 1274, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: that that report by· the investigating officer '" has been in the hands of the minister and his officials in the. Justic~ D~partment for six months, in round terms. I did not hear the statement made, but I understand from those who did hear that in fact it was made today by a spokesman for the RCM Police. MR. NEARY: In replying to a question from the CBC. MR. ROBERTS: Replying ~o a question from the CBC radio news or televisi .on news peopl~. Now I would say to the President of the Council(Mr. Marsh.alll that that puts a very heavy onus on him and his colleagues.

I ~gree completely, and, in fact, nobody could question that it is not the police who decide whether charges are to be laid or not, that is the prerogative of the law officers of the Crown. And I say, too, that the minister is wise to delegate that decision and not to take it himself. It would be imprudent and possibly improper for the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimerl or any political level figure to decide whether or not sue~ a prosecution should be laid. Although, of course, the final authority rests, as it must, with the minister.

And simply because it would be politically a dangerous act, does not mean that legally the minist~ is absolved or has the responsibility lifted. But, and this is the important 'but', what we now know is that there was an investigation ordered by the Justice Minister and we now know that the police have mad~ a report. The report must have recommendations in it. It can have three possible recommendations; that there is evidence to support a criminal charge, that th~e is no ~vidence to support a criminal charge, or that further investigations are necessary.

There are only three possible recommendations that the police could have made after they made their investigation. So it is one of thos:e. It is up to the Crown, the law officers of the Crown, the minister and his· 3553

May 5, 198l, Tape l274, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: what to do. officials, to decide But first of all, th.ey have to tell us why they sat on it for six months -. Because we also know that the subject matter of this investigation was intensely, partisanlypolitical and that, Sir, is the danger.

That fact, and it is a fact, the unanimous report of the PAC, signed by seven members of this House representing both sides, all of them members of probity and of integrity, the unanimous report of the House has made it quite clear that that Devine contract, so-called, was an intensely politfcal and partisan matter, a matter, I might add, in which by virtue of the doctrine of ministerial responsibility, many of the present ministers: are involved. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. ROBERTS: MR. LUSH: Premier. Hear, hear~ Right on!' Twelve, is it? Twelve, including the MR.

ROBERTS: Twelve, including the Premier, were in the Cabinet. Now whether they were misled or fooled or not, use the words, •by virtue of the doctrine of ministerial responsibility' - MR. CARTER: MR. ROBERTS: MR. CARTER: in Cabinet? MR. ROBERTS: went on. MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudiblel. I beg your pardon? How about you when you were I am responsible for what Righ± on. And I have never denied it. Mr. Speaker, I will stand by what I did if the hon. gentleman is willing to stand by what his colleagues did. And he was in a cabinet and he 3554 . . ~.

May 5, 1981, Tape 1274, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: did not leave it of his own choice, I might point out. The hon. gentleman from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) left the cabinet at the point of a boot, and the end of that boot was encased in the foot of the then Premier. Dismissed! Dismissed for incompetence. By heavens, that says something. For a person to be dismissed for the Moores' Cabinet for incompetence, how bad must he have been? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker, I am being perfectly serious, and I am saying something that, whether the hon. gentleman from St.

John's Nort~ realizes it or not, goes right to the,heart of the administration, to the integrity of this administration, and the administration of justice in this Province. MR. STIRLING: MR. ROBERTS: He .is on the Committee . Yes. In fact, he is on the Committee, and he signed it, and doubtless accepted it or he would not have affixed h~s signature to it. MR. STIRLING: He very strongly supported it. MR. ROBERTS: We- have the facts. The facts are, first of all, the Minister of Justice .(Mr. Ottenheimer) ordered an investigation.

Secondly, that the results of that investigation have been in the hands of the minister or his officials. And I do not care whether he has physically seen the paper or not, he is the minister, he is responsible for everything that happens in that department, reponsible to this House, and 1 in law, to the people of this Province. It has been there for six months, we are told.

And thirdly, we are told by a Committee of this House, and they have put their evidence in th.eir report and it is unchallengeable, that the matter is intensely political, it i.s an intens -ely political 1 partisan matter in which at least twelve of the 3555

May 5, ~98~, Tape 1274, Page 4 -- apb MR . ROBERTS: involved. present Cabinet were. Now, I make no charges , I cast no imputations and I draw no inferences, but I do say - MR. CARTER: You could have fooled us . MR . ROBERTS: Yes , it is not difficult to fool the hon. gentleman, that is why he is a Tory . -I do say, Mr. SpeaRer , that the ministry , and I do not care. whether it is the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) where~er he is, and whenever he chooses to honour us again with his presence ., and I .do not care whether i t is the President of the Council (Mr . t-tarshall), the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins), or even the Minister of FisheriesOtt . Morgan), let the least among them speak, I do not care who it is, but the ministry has a duty very quickly to make a statement as to what they are going to do . Now, it is what they do. The DPP is an official . They can be guided by his advice if they wish . The DPP is an ~xtremely competent law officer. They might be well advised in the ministry to be guided by his advice . But it is the ministry that decides . 3556

May 5, 1981 Tape 1275 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: All prosecutions are in the name of the Crown, and the Crown in this sense is the Minister of Justice. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! Right on! And the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) or his representative, his spokesman, has got to tell this House very quickly - MR. NEARY! MR. ROBERTS: He was also in the previous Cabinet. Yes, he was in the - no, the Minister of Justice was not, he was the Speaker. MR. NEARY: Yes, he was. He was in the Cabinet too. MR. ROBERTS: Only for a couple of months. MR. NEARY: Well, he was there. MR.

ROBERTS: Only for a couple of months. Oh, yes, he was there as Minister of Education years before that. MR. NEARY: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, of course, and the best Minister of Education we have had in some time. But the fact remains that as it now stands there is a very grave question. The very grave question arises from the fact, and the very grave question is, What has the ministry done with this intensely political matter? Are they going to prosecute? I do not know and I really do not care. That is up to them to decide. I do not have the information.

I do not know what the police have recommended, I do not know what the police have found. I have not the least idea, nor do I care to know. Or have they decided not to prosecute? And I think it is fair and entirely relevant to ask why have they not said something? They have had the report for six months. AN HON. MEMBER: It is a cover up. MR. ROBERTS: Well, it may be a cover up or it may not. There may be legitimate reasons. They may need 3557

May 5, 1981 Tape 1275 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: further information, who knows? All I will say is that there is a very heavy duty incumbent on the ministry and if there is no statement within the next day or so - and I do not care whether it is the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer} or it is an acting minister or other ministers, somebody to speak for the Cabinet - if they do not make that statement then there will be inferences drawn. And there could only be one inference drawn, that the ministry are interfering in the administration of justice for partisan political purposes. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. ROBERTS: MR.

NEARY: DR. COLLINS: slur. MR. ROBERTS: it is a challenge. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! Now, that is the challenge. It would not be the first time. That is not a challenge, that is a Mr. Speaker, it is not a slur, Oh, oh! Order, please! But I will say to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) that his conduct and that of his colleagues is a slur, in trying to hide a report, in trying to hide their action on it. And they have taken no action. Maybe they have decided not to lay charges, I do not know, and I could not care less. That is their job to administer justice.

But I will say to him it is no slur to tell him that the report has been in the hands of him and his colleagues 1in the ministerial sense, for six months and we do not know what they have done. The people of this Province do not know. And I will say again that if there is no statement within a day or so then the people of this Province, and I among them, will draw the inference, the unavoidable, inescapable and correct inference that the ministry are hiding something. Now that is a challenge to him. Let him tell the truth, let him tell the full truth, let him tell the complete 3558 I·.

May 5, 1981 Tape 1275 EC - 3 MR. ROBERTS: truth. I am not saying he has not, but I am saying let him tell it and then we will judge, because this is potentially a most serious matter. MR. FLIGHT: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: This is the matter that destroyed a President of ·the United States. That is what got Richard Nixon into trouble. This is the matter that destroyed the career of a minister in this Cabinet, not telling the full truth.

If there is one - you know, we can have political arguments and we can argue back and forth, and we may be right or we may be wrong, but this goes right to the very heart of the very system of justice by which we live and by which we are governed. And the facts are out. I did not bring them out. I was not even aware of them until I was told of them. I have no access to what the law officers of the Crown do or no access to what the police report or do not report. But I will say to the minister, for he is the only minister here - I am not counting the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) or the Minister of - what is he? Labour (Mr. Dinn). The only important minister who is here is the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). I will say to him - MR. CARTER: Do not be so small. MR. ROBERTS: I am not being small, I am being accurate. AN HON. MEMBER: Truthful. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Fisheries is not important you are saying. MR. ROBERTS: No, fisheries is important, Mr. Speaker, fisheries is important. It is the minister who is not important, but fisheries is perfectly important. MR. MORGAN: Wait until you want something in your district again. You can give Mr. Hickey a call.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 3559

May 5, 1981 Tape 1275 EC - 4 MR. ROBERTS: Mr . Speaker, I am glad that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) made that statement in this House with the Mayor of St. Anthony and two of the councillors here. Let them carry the word back that the Minister of Fisheries said in response to a little tiff that he and I had - and he has grabbed up his papers and has gone home now; he is angry; he has taken his ball and bat and gone home, he cannot be pitcher - but let them carry the word back , the next time I want something for my district he will not give it to me because he is annoyed at me. Oh, fiddlesticks!

Oh, fudgy ! Do they really think the people of the Strait of Belle Isle will be blackmailed by anybody including - not a tin pot tyrant, a tin pot tea kettle . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROBERTS: The Minister of Fisheries! Of course, fisheries is important, it is the minister who is not. Be is self-important. MR. STIRLING: Be tried that out in Bellevue. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, he tried it in Bellevue and the people of Bellevue gave him what for. The people of the 3560 t:

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1276 DW - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: Province will give them what fo;­ the blackmail and the arrogance. Anyway, I was only going to say a few words. But I would say to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) that the point about the ~ MR. H. BARRETT: Tell us about the reservations for tonight. MR. E. ROBERTS: Now my friend for St. John's West (Mr. Barrett) comes ill~pped to a battle of wits. He would be well advised to restrict himself to those things about which he knows something, if, in fact, there are any.

If not 1 I would suggest to him he seek good advice 1 because good advice is what the hon. gentleman needs. Now, Mr. Speaker, I can only say that to give hon. gentlemen opposite words of wisdom is like putting pearls before swine. So I say to my hon. friend,I am about to conclude my few humble remarks and if he will but let me get on with it. Now he is a man of conscience and probity and integrity and I respect him for each and all of that. And I would suggest to him that he might ask of his colleagues . in the ministry, because he too stands in the same political cesspool as they do. MR.

STIRLING: He also signed the PAC report. MR. E. ROBERTS: Yes, he signed, He is Vice- Chairman of the Committee and I am sure he too, wants to know. I am sure he wants to just as I am sure he wants to know when the Premier is going to act upon the finding made in last year's report, unanimously,which said that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) ,as he now is,had knowingly and repeatedly breached the Public Tenders Act of this Province. Which is one of the shining jewels, one of the few, but nonetheless one of the shining jewels in the diadem that sits so askew upon the brow of our Premier. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 3561

:.~ May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1276 ow - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker, I regret that I have to be about my master's business but there are some things which have to be done and there are many behind me who - the best is yet to come 1 I assure hon. gentlemen opposite. I assure hon. gentlemen opposite that the best is yet to come. This is but going before to prepare the way - MR. J. CARTER: (Inaudiblel snake. MR. E. ROBERTS: Hold on now, hold on now. You kn~w, the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) is the only person I know who would call the Prime Minister of this country a snake.

You know, I find that completely beyond the pail.You know, I do not call his leader names. I may criticize their conduct and I do but I think it is kind of shameful that a person who has been elected to this House in all seriousness can call the Prime Minister of Canada a snake and mean it. I mean, he may be chortling over there, but he means it. AN HON. MEMBER: In the House, too. MR. E. ROBERTS: In the House, yes. I find that very hard to take as a Canadian, as a Newfoundlander. I do not care about partisan. I have my own feelings about Mr. Clark, the leader of the Tory Party.

I think he was a disastrous Prime Minister. MR. L. STIRLING: for St. John's North. MR. E. ROBERTS: ~no'~':' any better. MR. L. STIRLING: You should forgive the member Yes, I forgive him. He does not No, no, he is having trouble with his head again, that is the problem. MR. E. ROBERTS: Who, the member for St. John's North, having trouble with his head? MR. L. STIRLING: Again. 3562 •"""'

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1276 DW - 3 MR. E. ROBERTS: The trouble with the head of the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) is he has no head. He has lost his head many times in this House. Mr. Speaker, let me say it has been a pleasure to have these few brief words on the Budget. I think it is a sad and very disillusioning document. I think it reveals the intellectual bankruptcy of this government and the political bankruptcy of this government and what appears to be the inability of this government to cope financially.

All of the concerns of the people of this Province are easily identified, none of them has been dealt with in any way by this Budget. If ever there was a Budget that calls for a general election it is this one. And nothing would give the people of this Province more pleasure than to have the chance to render a verdict. And so I will leave the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) with but one simple thought that even he ought to be able to appreciate because it is simple: That if he believes this Budget is the document that he has held it out to be - MR. TULK: Social conscience. MR. E.

ROBERTS: - the document with a social con- science,then let him wait upon his leader,whenever his leader next returns to this Province from his southern holiday­ ;!R. HODDER: MR. E. ROBERTS: I understand he is in the mental hosrital. No, he is not there. No, no! They have cut back services. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. E. ROBERTS: When next the Premier returns to the Province let him wait upon him and say, 'Premier, let us have a general election. Let us let the people rule on this one'. 3563 . ..... , ·-

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1276 ow - 4 MR. E. ROBERTS: And now that the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) is back and I believe the acting Minister - am I correct, the acting Minister of Justice, the hon. gentleman for St . John ' s East (Mr. Marshall) is acting Minister of Justice? Is that correct? MR . w. MARSHALL: Yes . MR . E. ROBERTS: Okay, I thank him. MR . NEARY: He grugi ngly ack nowledged that . lot.R . STIRLING: rte is not acting very well but he is acting . MR. E. ROBERTS: No, but he is the acting minister.

I say to him,I do not know if he heard what I had to say about the Devine thing,but I think it is incumbent upon him in the interest of the administration of Justice in this Province to make a statement to the House. The police have apparently made a report . They had to recommend one of three things. 3564

May 5,1981 Tape No. 1277 AH-1 MR.ROBERTS: I do not care what they recommended but I do care what decision has been taken. It is of no interest to me, Mr.

Devine or his company or anything else is of no concern to me. 'Vvh_at does concern me is that some recommendations have been made one way or the other, the matter is intensely political, it involves in the ministerial sense twelve members of the present Cabinet, it involves people who were prominent in public life in this Province as well as some who are prominent, and it is a perfect example of a case where the interest of justice and the interest of decency both demand an immediate and a full statement as to what has been done.

And I accept the hon. gentleman's ascertion that it will be done on the advice of the law officers of the Crown. He and I would both recall the late Guy Favreau,a man of honour and of stature who made a frightful mistake in being his own chief legal advisor. He made the right decision but he paid a dear price for it at the hands of the Tory party.

I do not suggest that the ministry should be so foolish as to take decisions on that kind of prosecution, whether to go or not to go, but I do suggest that ~he House should be told what is being done now that it is out that the police have made a report and that it is out that the matter is - MR. MARSHALL: Would the hon. member yield? MR. ROBERTS: Yes. Sure, on this matter. I will be delighted to, of course. MR. SPEAKER (Baird): The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle yields to the hon. House Leader. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, this government is not hesitant to let justice - not let justice take its course but to demand that justice must take its course in 3565

May 5,1981 Tape No. 1277 AH-2 MR. MARSHALL: any matter. As the bon. member will indicate,this is not the kind of thing I know that the hon. gentleman would want to let insinuations pass with respect to it. But as th.e bon. member will understand,these matters are entirely, as to whether or not criminal action is taken, criminal proceedings are taken at any time,lie entirely and absolutely in the hands of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

And if we ever get to the stage where prosecutions are taken either for political expedienc~ 1 · on the one hand or because of political pushing on th.e oth,er hand,we have the type of state, Mr. Speaker, that I do not think any of us have ever had and that we would ever want to have.

Now the position on this 1 as I indicated in Question Period this afternoon, is that it has to go to th.e Director of Public Prosecutions, it has gone to the Director . of Public Prosecutions, it is in the course of investigation and when that investigation is completed 1 immediately, as soon as the Director of Public Prosecutions is completed the House will be informed. But the House at the same time is not going to be put in the position of sitting in trial on the thing. It is going to be informed of the decision of the Director of Public Prosecutions at the time. MR. ROBERTS: MR.

SPEAKER (Baird) : of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. The bon. member for the Strait Mr. Speaker, I heard what my friend from St. John's East (Mr.Marshall) had to say and of course he cannot really be serious when he says that the decision as to whether or not prosecution is taken rests with the DPP. The DPP is a senior law officer. This House does not look to the DPP for the administration of justice, this House looks to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) and to the Cabinet. 3566 ...

May 5,1981 Tape No. 1277 AH-3 MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. ROBERTS: Now I think I know what he means and he means what I said earlier that the Crown; the law officer, the Attorney General 1 may choose to be guided by the DPP1 but I am not going to let the hen. gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) shelter behind the skirts of a public servant. We have no right to question a public servant and we would not dream of it. We would say that it is this ministry that is responsible and we would say that this ministry owes the people of this Province a full and a complete statement.

Now I do not know what the statement should be because I do not know the facts of the matter. The police did one of three things in that report. They either recommended . there be a prosecution, they recommended there not be one 1 or they said further investigation is needed. I have no idea what they said,but I think it is incumbent upon the - and I do not expect us to be told, but I expect the Crown, the ministry 1 to tell us what is being done. It has been around for six months. That is enough investigation. you know,Watergate did not take six months to expose.

I do not know what more is needed,and I am not going to attempt to prejudge, but I think that the minister ought to tell the House and there ought to be a proper statement made in this House so it can be dealt with in the usual way. Now, Mr. Speaker, as I said that is but a few brief preliminary words. We on this side think this Budget is a monsterous document, a sad 1 misshapen, leaderless, dispirited and altogether quite lumpen document. We shall be moving an amendment of no confidence in it.

We shall be voting for it and we hope the gentleman on the other side will approach it in the proper way and that they will ensure that the steps are 3567 ..... --

May 5,1981 Tape No. 1277 AB-4 MR. ROBERTS: taken so that the people of this Province can judge ~ Because,after all,that is what we should have . We have now had two years of this government . Let us have an election and we will see if the minister can convince the people of this Province that he is right or we will see whether we can convince the people of this Province that we are right. One thing is for sure: The minister's budget 3568

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1278 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: is not a step forward, it is a step back, Sir, and a very sad one at that. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : The han. Minister of Finance. MR. ROBERTS: Can he speak in the Budget debate? MR. CARTER: Of course. What do you think? AN HON . MEMBER: Why not? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: I certainly do not question the minister's right to speak, but this debate began on a motion by the minister. MR. NEARY: MR. WHITE: MR.

ROBERTS: That is riqht. So he spoke. And the motion has never been put, nor is it put until the end of the debate. The minister speaks at the end - I am not even sure he can speak at the end. The minister has made his speech. And my point of order is that I do not think he has any right to speak again in this debate. If there is an amendment he may certainly speak. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. ROBERTS: But I raise that as a point of order, Your Honour. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker.

While my hon. friend is checking the reference here, you can only speak once in the Throne Speech debate and only once in the budget debate, Mr. Speaker, and the hon. Minister of Finance spoke, as everybody knows, spoke on opening day, and he has officially spoken. He has spoken for the government, and we gave him the 3569

May 5, 1981 Tape 1278 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: privilege on opening day to bring in the television cameras and the microphones so that he could be recorded. So everybody knows that the hon. gentleman has spoken and he cannot speak twice. If the hon. gentleman can speak twice,then everybody in this House can speak twice, Mr. Speaker. And I submit the hon. gentleman is out of order and if they do not want .to put up another speaker, let me go on as speaker and I will move an amenC: ... .ant so that the hon. gentleman, if he wants to get back into the debate, can do so. MR. SPEAKER (Baird): the House Leader. MR.

MARSHALL: To the point of order, the hon. Well, Mr. Speaker, I will just let Your Honour rule on the point of order. I was just getting up, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, as I recall it, the minister has spoken previously and cannot speak twice unless he is closing the debate. So the ruling is the member has already spoken. MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: to right? I mean MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: to congratulate - SOME HON. MEMBERS: - Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker. Oh, oh! Mr.

Speaker, are you not going left Order, please! - the hon. member was standing. Mr. Speaker. Yes. Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker - Hear, hear! First of all, Mr. Speaker, I want Oh, oh! 3570

May 5, 1981 Tape 1278 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: First of all, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. House Leader. I understood that the hon. MR. MARSHALL: gentleman was up speaking on a point of order, that the hon. member - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: Just a second now. The hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) was standing up on a point of order. The bon. the member for LaPoile stands up on every- thing. He stands up on speeches, he stands up on points of order.

It is my understanding that - I do not know that Your Honour has yet made his ruling on that point of order, and until Your Honour makes his ruling on the point of order, we cannot proceed with the debate. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, to the point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. the House Leader. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt in anyone's mind in this House,including the Government House Leader's (Mr. Marshall) 1 that the Speaker had made his ruling on the point of order and had so informed the House, and Hansard will show such, Mr. Speaker. And not only that, Mr.

Speaker, but the gentleman from LaPoile was recognized as the speaker and he was recognized by Your Honour. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order. There is ~. no point of order. The bon. the member for LaPoile. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, prior to 1972, before January 18, 1972, one of the big points, one of the 3571

May 5, 1981 Tape 1278 EC - 4 MR. NEARY: major points made by the Opposition of that day was that Newfoundland was - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ;..- 3572

May 5, 1981 Tape 1279 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (MR. BAIRD) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: - on the verge of bankruptcy. that she was going down the tube. There was no way that Newfoundland could survive because of the public debt. The present President of the Council (Mr. Marshall), the member for St. John's East,was one of the members who sat in Opposition who condemned the government at that time for its horrendous -they used to refer to it as a horrendous public debt. And there were one or two others, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer), who was also in Opposition at that time.

They went out of their way, spent most of their time, they concentrated practically their whole effort on trying to d~stroy the administration of that day by saying that Joey was going to sink her, she could not survive, the public debt was going to put us under. Now, Mr. Speaker, what was the public debt at that time? What was the public debt ten years ago? Prior to the Tories taking over in this Province on January 18, 1972,what was the public debt? Well 1 I will tell the House what the public debt was at that time.

The pu~lic debt was under $800 million, under $800 million, and part of that public debt 1 by the way 1 was inherited from a previous government, a privious administration. Apart of that $800 million was inherited from a previous government or a previ?us commission. MR. HANCOCK: But we had things going then. MR. NEARY: And, Mr. Speaker, the public debt which the Tories said was going to sink Newfoundland,was going to bankrupt Newfoundland' was less than $800 million. Now, ~r. Speaker, what did we have to show for that $800 million? And I might add, Sir, that $800 3573

May 5, 1981 Tape 1279 PK ~ 2 MR • . NEARY: million debt was accumulated over a period of twenty-three years, twenty-three years. Now, less than $800 million, what did we have to show for it? AN HON. MEMBER: Progress. MR. NEARY: Well,we had hospitals to show for it, we had a university to show for it, we had vocational schools to show for it, thirteen of them, we had a College of Fisheries to show for it, we had a College of Technology to show for it. We had 152 schools built, we had thousands of miles of roads, blacktop which revoluntionized Newfoundland, MR. HANCOCK: The new Trans-Canada. MR.

NEARY: The Tra~s-Canada Highway, about 500 or 600 communities brought out of isolation through a road network that connected them up to the mainstream through the Trans-Canada Highway. We had water and sewerage going everywhere in the Province. What else did we have? Where is that 333? MR. HANCOCK: MR. NEARY: MR. HANCOCK: MR. NEARY: Province. MR. HANCOCK: MR. NEARY: Hold on! Right here, right here. Let me see some more examples. Something dear to my heart. $800 million going to bankrupt the I will find them for you. Yes rhyme them off there. Rhyme them off.

Water and sewerage, public buildings, Arts and Culture Centres. You would not know to listen to this crowd now, Mr. Speaker, the way they dole out their little piddling few dollars to the arts and council groups, you would not know but they were the ones who orgininally supported arts and culture groups in this Province. Every Arts and Culture Centre in Newfoundland today was built by the Liberal Government. AN HON. MEMBER: Right on. 3574

May 5, 1981 Tape 19.279 PK - 3 MR. STAGG: No1 that is not so. MR. NEARY: That is so. Even the one in Stephenville . MR . STAGG: MR. NEARY: revolution in the - MR. HISCOCK: MR. NEARY: That is not so . That is so. And then we had, Mr. Speaker, a Co-ops. - co-ops, in the development of our natural resources, the opening of mines, the opening of industries, and Mr . Speaker, we had one 35 75

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1280 IB-1 MR. NEARY: of the most prosperous periods in our whole history. l'.nc'l yet the debt, the public debt after twenty-three years so we were told by the Tories,was horrendous, it was going to sink Newfoundland, it was going to bankrupt the Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us see what has happened in a ten year period. MR. HANCOCK: r,Je built and rebuilt 6,000 miles of roads. Do not ever let them forget that. MR. NEARY: Yes,we built and rebuilt 6,000 miles of road in that twenty-three years when the Tories said we were going to bankrupt Newfoundland. Now, Mr.

Speaker, by comparison just let us.see what has happened in the ten years of a Tory administration in this Province. Well 1 in ten years the provincial debt has tripled. Now remember - I have to repeat this for the sake of the people who may be making notes- that the public debt prior to January 18, 1972 1 less than $800 million. Since January 18, 1972 1 up to the present time,less than ten years,the debt has more than tripled. And at the end of the present year, at the end of this fiscal year the debt, the provincial debt, will be $3,200 million or, to put it another way, $3.2 billion. MR. THOMS: No~ MR.

NEARY: $3.2 billion. In ten years, Mr. Speaker, the Tories have driven up the public debt by $2.4 billion, $2,400 million. They upped it by $2.4 billion in les9 than ten years. Now remember the whole debt of Newfoundland prior to January 18, 1972,was less than $800 million. Now it is $3.2 billion.In less than ten years they have driven it up by $2.4 billion. And, Mr. Speaker, you would not mind so bad if they did anything, if we had anything to show for it , but they have more than tripled the public debt and not a solitary thing to show for it. 3576

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1280 IB-2 MR. NEARY: How many miles of road have they built? How many schools have they built? How many hospitals have they built? How many Arts and Culture · Centres have they built? How many public buildings have they built? How much water and sewerage? How many trades schools? How many colleges of trade? How many universities? How many mines have they opened? How many new industries have they set up? The answer, Mr. Speaker, is zilch, zero. Mil.. Hl\NCOCK; Only what they have closed and the Liberals have opened. MR. NEARY: Only what they have closed dow~ as my hon. colleague reminds me.

And, Mr. Speaker, during that time we have seen the most blatant examples of extravagance and waste in our whole history. What a nerve and what a and what a face this crowd have! The Minister of Finance must have the face of a robbe+'s horse to come into th~s House and ask for increases in taxes, to ask to have the tax on gasoline changed from twenty-eight cents a gallon to 22 per cent which meant right off the bat,by the way, a four cent a gallon increase. But as the price of gasoline goes up 22 per cent,up goes the tax to the provincial government. The price of permits have gone up.

We are told that big game licenses in the Province this year will cost fifty dollars, a substantial increase. The price of vehicle permits, the price of a permit for your vehicle has gone up substantially. Everything, Mr. Speaker, they have managed to put up everything. 3577

May 5, 1981, Tape 1281, Page l -- apb MR. NEARY: And I might remind the House that this a - MR. TULK: diesel fuel. MR. NEARY: diesel fule Twenty-six per cent on Twenty-six per cent on this is a crowd that went around the Province and said they were not going to increase taxes. They do not call a gasoline tax a tax. I believe if you look at the budget that you will see the MinisteL of Finance (Dr. Collins) saying that we are going to change the gasoline tax from twenty-eight cents a gallon to twenty-two cents. And I might further point out, Mr.

Speakex, that wherever I have travelled in Newfoundland in the last month I am told by the ordinary person in this Province that they did not know, they did not realize that the Provincial Government was taking twenty-eight cents a gallon on a gallon of gasoline for a provincial tax - twenty eight cents. I will bet you there are people on the other side listening to me right now who did not know that the provincial tax on gasoline was twenty­ eight cents, compared, I might say, Mr. Speaker, to the present federal tax of ten cents a gallon.

Most people were shocked when they heard it, that the provincial tax on gasoline was twenty-eight cents, now going to be changed from a flat rate to a percentage rate which gives the Province increases. Ever~tirne that a gallon of gas or a gallon of heating fuel or a gallon of fuel oil goes up in price, the tax to the Province is greater. So why should they not encourage Mr. Lougheed out in Western Canada to drive up the price of gasoline and the price of heating fuel to the consumers in Canada to world prices? ~~y should they not encourage it? That is the real reason, Mr. Speaker. 3578

May 5, 1981, Tape 1281, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: But, Mr. SpeaRer, it was cruel and callous what this government did in their budget. They are making the people of Newfoundland pay for their mismanagement of the last ten years. MR. HANCOCK: suffer. MR. NEARY: They are making them They are making the people of this Province, as my bon. friend says, suffer, suffer because they were unable to cope with th.e problems · o£ thi:s Province. As my bon. colleague, the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts)_ so ably put it in his few remarks there a few moments ago, before he took his seat, Mr.

Speaker, when he referred to the incompetence of the members of this government, they are unable to cope wi:th the problems of this Province. So what they have done, Mr. Speaker, is they have driven the public debt up to $3.2 billion and not a single thing to show £or it. Now, Mr. Speaker, why should I talk so much about the public debt? We.ll, I sincerely believe, Mr. Speaker, that the public debt o£ $3.2 billion, and I have had occasi.on in the las.t couple o£ days to discuss this with financial experts, witfi people who are expert in the field, I believe the public debt, Mr.

Speaker, which has tripled over the last ten years, has control of this Province. This Minister o£ Finance, when I questioned him the other day on the public debt and the rate of interest we were paying on the public debt, and if we were having trouble borrowing and so forth, the minister, like a doctor with a bedside manner, told us that everything is under control. 'Nothing to worry about, everything is under control'. Well, as I say 1 that reminds me of a doctor sitting down by the bedside of his pati:ent who 3579

May 5, 1981, Tape 1281, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: just passed away, or who is just about to take his last gasp, and the doctor goes out and tells the relatives, 'Do not worry about a thing, everything is under control'. Whatever that means, Mr. Speaker, everything is under control. Well, I have a feeling that everything is not under control. And I am told that in the bondmarket today there is a chaotic situation developing that is going to have a devastating effect on Newfoundland's borrowing in the ·future.

The minister, the other day, told us that the interest rate on our borrowing, according to the last bond issue that I believe was floated in Europe, was around 13 per cent, 13.5 per cent. Well, Mr~ Speaker, that may be. It may have been 13.5 per cent a few months ago but it changes. The changes are taking place so rapidly that I am told today that the interest rate,if the Newfoundland Government went to the market today, the interest rate would be 16.5 per cent. Now 3 per cent -they are going to borrow $200 million this year - on $200 million, how much is that? MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: How much, $200 million?

On $200 million. It is $6 million,a difference of $6 million. Since the minister gave me the information the other day on the interest that the Newfoundland Government paid on its last bond issue of 13.5 per cent, it is now, or will be when they go to the bond market again, 16.5 per cent. A difference of 3 per cent of $200 million that they will borrow this year is an increase - only within a matter of a few days - of $6 million. So it will be $206 million. 3580

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1282 GS - 1 MR. NEARY: That is what that bond issue will be. And I am also told, Mr. Speaker, by the people who are in the know 1 that it is going to be very difficult, not only for this Province but for any other province in Canada.

It is even difficult, I am told, for the Government of Canada to enter into any long-term arrangement on the bond market, that the investors are just not putting their money - they have been scalded so often in Canada that the investors, especially in the United States, are not entering into any long-term agreements on the bond market at the present time, no fifteen-year term bonds, no twenty-year bonds. Short-term is all they will invest their money in. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: How long? Pardon? How long?

You are talking about quick turnover of maybe a year, three years, a maximum of five years, less than five years. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: Pardon? (Inaudible) . They have to be paid back and you pay through the nose for that kind of money. The Government of Canada, who floated a bond issue recently, discovered th.at the investors are just not buying long-term bonds and so thi.s government here will be no exception. It is happening to every government,practically,across Canada -will find that the investors want to roll over their money quickly.

They are not p:t:epared to enter into any more long-term bond issues, They have been scalded, they have lost too much money, and the interest rate changes too quickly and 3581 .. . .

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1282 GS - 2 MR. NEARY: so, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that there will be problems unless Alberta again comes to the rescue of the Province and they will probably end up owning us down here body and soul. MR. TULK: Owning the government. MR. NEARY: They will own the government. They are calling the shots now as far as the price of oil in Canada is concerned. Mr. Lougheed pulls the strings out in Alberta and Mr. Peckford, our Premier here, jumps. Every time he pulls the strings our Premier is like a jack-in-the-box, he jumps.

And so if we have to go that route, well 1 then,it seems to me that not only will Alberta own and control Newfound­ land, but there are a number of other provinces in Canada, too, where they will be calling · the shots, and that would be tragic and unfortunate indeed for Confederation with the attitude of the Premier of Alberta. But that is what is going to happen, Mr. Speaker. It is going to be a hard, hard year to float a bond for this Province, to float a bond issue, at any reasonable interest rate. I say it will be 16.5 per cent.

It is that now and I will say th.at they wi.ll not be able to get a long-term arrangement with their bonds. It will be anywhere from a year to three years at the most,I would say, possibly five years. They may be able to negotiate a five-year deal. So, Mr. Speaker, we should spend some time in this H.ouse talking about and sh.owing some conce .rn about the public debt. The public debt - I do not want to be like th.e Tories back in the old days, back in 1972, pre.ach. doom and gloom and say that the Province is on the verge of bankruptcy, say that the Tories are going to put her under, but I will say this, Mr.

Speaker, unless we can develop o~r natural resources in this Province wh.ere we can get additional revenue,we might find ourselves in a very sticky financial situation, and therein lies the problem. While the provincial 3582

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1282 GS - 3 MR. NEARY: debt of this Province has tripled, no new development has taken place, no new industries have been opened up. All they have been doing is attacking individuals and companies and corporations that have been interested in developing in Newfoundland, and they always use the smoke screen, 'Oh, we are not going to be like the Liberals, we are not going to give it away'. Mr. Speaker, that has nothing to do with it, nothing at all to do with it. 'We are not go~~g to develop the Lower Churchill', they said, 'because we do not want to give it away.

We are not going to develop the forest industries and the mines in this Province because we do not want to give it away.' Well, as my hon. friend from the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) said, 'Do you have to give anything away to negotiate?' Negotiation is a two-way street. The government are not always right. The Premier of this Province is not always right. There is another side to every story. MR. WHITE: He says he is always right. MR. NEARY: I know he says he is always - he is so self-opinionated that he would like everybody to believe that he is always right. MR. WHI.TE: linaudible) he is the only one.

MR. NEARY: Yes, he is the only honest one. Well, we tested that honesty and we found out 3583

May 5, 1981, Tape 1283, Page~ -- apb MR. NEARY: that when it is convenient to do or say that, then anybody can operate under these rules, Mr. Speaker. But, Mr. Speaker, I am so concerned about the provincial debt, I am so concerned about the lack of a tax base that we have in this Province - we were steamrolling along right up to ~~72, we were going full speed ahead, and then all of a sudden a dead stop, all of a sudden they slammed the brakes on.

And so what- ever tax base we have in this Province, whether it be from the Upper Churchill- and we can talk all we like about i.t being a bad deal, but there is some income there, s·ome revenue there, there is a community there - the mines in Labrador or the forest industries, whatever tax base we. I have in this Province,the people of this Province can thank the Liberals for it. And it i.s a good thi.ng that we were active for twenty-three years or Newfoundland certainly would . be bankrupt today. And so, Mr.

Speaker, r am so concerned about the publi.c debt, and we are on this side, that I would like to move the following amendment seconded by - if I do need a seconder - my bon . fri .end the member for Lewisporte(Mr.

Whitel: By striking out all the words after 'that' and substituting thereof the following: 'That the House regrets that instead of the Province having control of its public debt, the publi.c debt has control over the Province, given that the debt has. tri.pled in the past ten years (up by $2.4 billion duri.ng that time to a total provincial debt of $3.2 billion) and the House regrets further that the people of this Province have nothing to show for such a drastic increase'. MR. MOORES: Hear, hear! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. HANCOCK: Truer words were said by no man. MR.

SPEAKER (Butt}: May I have the amendment, please? 3584

May 5, l98l, Tape l283, Page 2 -- apb 11R. SPEAKER(Buttl: The motion is in order, The non. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I thank Your Honour for your courtesy. I want to talk now, Mr. Speaker, a few moments about the high cost of living in this Province. Apart from the devastating effect and impact that the tripling of the provincial debt is having on the people of this Province, inasmuch as tne extra taxes that the government are collecting as a result of this budget that was just brought down about a month ago­ as a result of that budget, Mr.

Speaker, I would be prepared to say that a small fraction of the increase £n taxes was necessary due to inflation. Anybody, any fair-minded person would make that statement, that part of the reason for the increases in taxation and the increase in gas-oline in this Province is due to inflation that is hitting the whole world. But 50 per cent of the increase in taxes ·, Mr. Speaker, has been brought about by mismanagement and extravagance and waste on the part of this administration, and th.eir neglect.

And one of the areas that they have neglected, and one of the areas whe.re they have socked it to the consumer by putting four cents on the price of gasoline, is in the area of the cost of living in this Province. We have the hightest taxes in Canada, we have the highest sales tax in Canada, we have the - I believe we are in the top three - highest income tax in Canada. It is safe to say, Mr. Speaker, that we have the highest taxation in Canada and we have the highest cost of living in Canada. And, Mr. Speaker, does the government not realize that everytirne they whack four cents 3585

May 5, 1981, Tape 1282, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: on a gallon of gasoline, that they are driving up the cost of living in this Province, every time they do it? MR . ~NCOCK: They do not care, ~steve ~. MR . NEARY: Do they not care about people, Mr. Speaker? Every time they allow Newfoundland Hydro to increase e lectricity rates in this Province they are driving up the cost of living 3586

May 5, 1981 Tape No. 1284 IB-1 MR. NEARY: for the consumer. That has to be passed on to the consumer. Newfoundland Light and Power Company are not going to dip down and pay it out of the record profits that they made last year, the consumer has to pay it. And the latest round of increases, the latest application by Newfoundland Hydro, we are told by cousin Vic,is being made because Newfoundland Hydro wants to establish a good credit rating for themselves. Somewhere down the line they want to be in a position to borrow $15 million or $20 million, $20 million or $30 million and theywant a good credit rating.

They want the financiers andthebusiness world to look upon them as a pretty nice bunch of guys who have a pretty good credit rating 1 so what do they do? They sock it to the consumers. And, Mr. Speaker, let nobody be fooled by this charade of going down to public hearings down at the Public Utilities Board. It is a sham. It is hypocritical. We have got a similiar situation happening now in connection with the closing of Deer Lake Airport.

This government, to show you how hypocritical they are, they say, 'Oh, we will finance, we will help the groups in Deer Lake finance the preparation and the presentation of their briefs to the Canadian Transport Commission'. Well, I hope that the Minister of Health (Mr. House), the member for Humber Valley does not think that the people of Deer Lake are swallowing that little bit of bait that he is throwing out, a few crumbs that he is throwing out, the pap. I hope the hon. gentleman does not think that his constituents in Humber Valley are swallowing that. AN HON. MEMBER: Sure they are. MR.

NEARY: Sure.they will take it,_Mr. Speaker, the same as the consumer groups who go down before the Public Utiliti