PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 27 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, APRIL 23, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

April 23rd, 1971 The Rouse met at 11:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 364 JM - 1 MR. SPEAKER: Order! Before we take up the first item, Presenting Petitions, I want to draw the attention of the House to the fact that we have in the galleries on the Speakers right today a numbeY of pupils grades five and six from St. Alban's Elementary School, Trinity, Bonavista Bay. They are accompanied here today by the principal of the school, Miss Marie Fitzsimmons and the ~rade five teacher, Mr. D. LaF18Dll!le. I would ask you all to give them a hearty welcome. NOTICE OF MOTION: RON. E.S. JONES (MINISTER OF FINANCE): Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on t01110rrow ask leave to move the House into a Conmittee of the Whole to consider certain Resolutions in relation to the granting of Supplementary Supply to Her Majesty for the financial year ending the 31st day of March, 1971. I give further notice, Mr. Speaker, that I will ask leave on tomorrow to let the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain Resolutions for the granting of Supply to Ber Majesty. I give further notice, Mr. Speaker, that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the Bouse to move the House into a Condttee of Ways and Means.

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: HON. J.:R. SMALLWOOD(PREMIER): Mr. Speaker, question 480 on the Order Paper of April 15th in -the name of the hon. the member for St. John's West. The all8Ver to the first part of the first question is 21,078.aad the answer to the second

part is that, of course, this is confidental commercial information between customers and between supplier and buyer. MR. J.C. CROSBIE: (Inaudible) • MR. S!lf.ALLWOOD: That is rbht, that is right but the second part has to do with 'Price which is classified information. The answer to the second

part is rather lon~ but the totals were 961 men, 961 employed in Lake Melville on the 10,~in~ operation and eip,hty-one of these were not Newfoundlanders, were 1829

~ril 23rd. 1971 Tape 364 JM - 2 HR. S'!.fALl.'JOOD: not livinJ? in f'Tewfoundland or Labrador, they were brought in. Five of them were for management, six were office staff, eight of them were scalers, four of them were foremen, five were mechanics, five were heavy equipment operators, seventeen were skidder operators.

The number of residents of the Province were 880 who were already residents, that is to say they were residents before they ~ot the jobs, that is ninety-two per-cent, Now the third part of the question asks how many men were workin~ on March 1st, past and how many of those men were ordinarily re!d .tiPnt. in N-,f"f'""A­ land. W'ell, the number on March 1st past was 252 and it is not a great deal la~er in nmnber now and it will not be until the snow is gone and they can begin operating on some scale. Of the 252 employed on March 1 seven persons were non-residents, were not Newfoundlanders.

This givea a proportion of over ninety-seven per-cent Newfoundlanders. MR. CROSBIE: Could we have the details and as a further question, Mr. Speaker, when the Premier says 880 is that 880 at one time or during the course of the year? MR. SMALLWOOD: No, not at one time.no. MR. CROSBIE: That is during the whole year there are 880? Mil. SMALLWOOD: Nor was the other number all at one time. The ei~htv-ei~ht n~ whatever that smaller number is of non-residents, they were not all of them working at the one time but throughout the season. These were the two numbers respectively.

HON. !.M. !".ROBERTS(MINISTER OF HEALTH): Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could answer a few more of the questions standing in my naJ'le. First, Sir, question 234 on the Order Paper of March 29~ the hon. gentleman from St. John's East asked me whether the plannin~ cOffllllittee of the Western Me~orlal Hos~ital have determined the type of hospital facility necessary for Western Newfound­ land? I am not quite sure how to answer that, Sir, but perhaps I could answer it by saying the planninr. commi~tee of the hospital,on which were 1830

April 23rd, 1971 Tape 364 JM - 3 MR. RO~'f.RTS: represented the Government, the Hospital Board and the medical staff and so forth,have deterru.ned on a plan for Western Memorial Hospital itself, the re,;ional facility for Western ~ewfoundland and a district facility for the Comer Brook-Bay of Islands area.and the Government, of course, have approved that plan. He went on to ask if architectural and/or conceptual plans have been comr.iissioned and the answer to that is yes. We have already announced that, Mr. Speaker.

He asked what fees and/or remuneration had been paid or agreed to be paid and the answer is at the rate of , seven and one-half per­ cent. I think that is fairly standard. Then the hon. gentleman asked.have either preliminary or final drawings or both been received and the answer is that at this stage we have neither. He asked have tenders been called? Vell, you know we are not going to call tenders without plans. Question 235, Sir, asked about Twillingate.

Have architects been engaged and the answer is yes, my colleague the Minister of Justice made the announcement before the New Year, the firm of Horwood and Guihan. Their fee• etc will be paid at the rate of seven per-cent.

(3) Have either preliminary or final drawings or both been received? I am told we received schematic plans, whatever that might be. I also know that fairly recently the site of the hospital was finally determined. A.~ HON. HEMRER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Something special for Twillingate, yes. Question 239, the member for St. John's West on the Order Paper of March 29; asked much the same question as the hon, member for St. John's.East about Western Me~orial Hospital. He asked however for the name of the , · architects and it is Relanr.er, Blanc and Albert etc. etc.

March 1971 was when they were appointed and the other parts of the auestion I think I have already answered just dealin~ with the one firm - we have made no payments tqdate in this year. 18 31

April 23rd, 1971 Tape 364 JM - 4 ~. CROSBIE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBF.RTS: All ri~ht, before that I can add that of the artount we previously spent on Western Memorial Hospital $140,000. stands to our credit with that firm as a~ainst the plans they are now doing. Is there a supplementary question? MR. CROSBIE: Yes, what was the cost? There have been monies paid out t~date in connection with previous plans and so on. MR. ROBERTS: I have already an~ered that I think, Mr. Speaker, but from memory it was of the order of one-half million dollars over the past five or six years. MR.

CROSBIE: Which is a credit of $140.000 MR. ROBERTS: We are credited ln addition we have the benefit of what- ever can be used of the plans and concepts that have been developed. The member for St. John's West, question 240, asked a question about Twillingate. Re asked were the firm of Horwood, Campbell & Guihan appointed in the year 1967 or 1968, if so, what date were the architects appointed? It is an unuaual question, Sir, because the answer is March 1968 and if memory serves me the hon. gentleman at that time was the Minister of Health, I would have thought he would know about that.

Re then went on to ask;have any plans been received and I have already dealt with that. The schematic plans were received in April 1971, I am told. Were they instructed not to proceed with the drawing-up of the necessary plans and specifications? Those plans were deferred but they have ·now been reactivated. He asks what has been the cost to the Government to date with reference for architects or engineering fees or consultants fees for Twillingate? The answer is $3,637.16, $3,600,000 in round figures. Question 241, Sir, the hon. gentleman from St.

John's West asked me, in essence what he asked was have the Department of Health had any investigations made into the ERCO plant at Lon~ Harbour and. if so, by whom? The ·answer, Sir, is as follows~ yes, an investi~ation was carried out in June of 1970. 1832

April 23rd, 1971 Tape 364 JM - 5 MR. RORERTS: It was made by Mr. C.R. Ross a profession engineer who is an official of the Occupational Health Division of the Canada Department of Health and Welfare. The report of the investigation was sent to me on August 3rd, 1~70. The hon. gentleman then asked would the Government table the report? Well, it is not that I will not table the report, Mr. Speaker, but since I made it public on behalf of the Government at a news conference held in August 1970 it is on the record, it is available. Then the hon. gentleman asked - MR.

CROSBIE: Does that mean the ~inister would table it? MR. ROBERTS: I do not see any need to table it. It is in flf'! file somewhere but if the hon. gentleman wants to look it up in the newspapers it is there if not - MR. CROSBIE: tabled? No, no, not the newspapers, the report itself could that be MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I have already made the full report public. I see no need to table it again but if the hon. gentleman can give me a reason to table it again I would be delighted to go and spend money to have it photostated and sent out. It has been made public,the full report. MR.

CROSBIE: Since the Minister has made some report on it we would like to see the report itself. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I made the full report public not a version of the report or not comments on the report. I made it public to the people of Newfoundland in August 1970 a -tter of three or four days after I received it. MR. CROSBIE: Well, then why would the Minister - MR. SMALLWOOD: He was asleep,I think, he was asleep that week. MR. CROSBIE: Why would the Minister then object to tabling the report here so the members can see the report? MR.

ROBERTS: I have no objection to tabling it but I see no reason to table it that is all. 1833

April 23rd, 1971 Tape 364 JM - 6 MR. SMALLWOOD: It is p11blic knowled.2e now. MR. ROBF.RTS: It is as public as it can be, ~r. Speaker. MR. SPEA'KF.'R.: We 111ust not have a debate either as to whether it should be tabled or not. MR. CROSBIE: published? MR. ROBERTS: Could the Minister refer me to what date the whole report was I think it was AugllSt 8 , unless I get back to the hon. gentleman you know, it was a Thursday or Friday in the week. MR. SHALU:OOD: It was between 10:35 anc' 10:59. MR. ROBERTS: Newfoundland daylight time. MR. SMALLWOOD: Daylight saving time. MR. CROSBIE: Very good. MR.

ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman then went on to ask, Sir, if the Government were satisfied that the workin~ conditions · and environment of the plant at Long Harbour are now adequate etc. with respect to the protection of the health of the employees? Y.y answer would be that acting on the advice that the Government have received we are satisfied that conditions are adequate but let me hasten to say that there are still areas where further improvements should be made in the interests of the health of the employees of that company working at that plant.

Then he asked whether ERCO had carried out the recommendations made by the Government of Newfoundland The answer is yes and so the second half of the question does not arise. MR. CROSBIE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister tell us whether the Government has had any other investigation made since June of 1970? Has there been any follow up or has Mr. Ross gone back again or is there any further report since then? MR. ROBERTS: Yes·, there have been, I can only speak for the Department of Health, there may have been.

I do not know if other agencies are involved or not but there have been further visits by my own officials, Mr. Speaker. I have had several meetinv,s with Kr. LaPerrier who is the manager or I do 1834

April 23rd. 1971 Tape 364 JM - 7 MR. RO'RF.RTS : 6ot know whAt his exact title is but he is the head ~uy out there and I am told by my own environl'lental health officials that the conditions are being improved. I might add that I have also been keeping in close touch with the representatives of the union at Long Harbour and I ~ather they are satiafied. that thin~s are bein~ handled properly and I have, I think, a firm understandin, with Mr.

Parsons,who is the international representative of the steel workers union, they are certified for Long Harbour. and if there are any further problems he will not hesitate,~ to brin~ them to l'le. I think, any of us who know Mr. Parsons know that he will not hesitate to bring forward any problems he encounters. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question. Is the Minister aware that many of the employees at the ERCO plant itself are not satisfied with the conditions there as relates to health1 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I have had no further representations from the employees - 1835

April 23rd,, 1971 Tape no, 365 Page l mrw Mr. Roberts. or from the company. If there are any such problems. I would be most anxious to hear about them, My own officials, as I say, have been - I do not know how often they have been there, but I know they have been keeping in close touch. I also, as I have said, spoken on several occasions with Mr. Parsons and, you know. I will deal with the union, uecause, of course, they are legally representing the men in the plant. But if there are any problem, I would like to know about them.

I might say my friend and colleague the Minister of Provincial Affairs, who sits for the district of Placentia East. has also been keeping in close touch, and I think it is fair to say that he has had no complaints, because he has not been to me with them. He would not hesitate to bring them to me. He always has in the past. Question No. 242, Sir, March 29 - by the hon. the member for St. John's West. He asked me, in effect, if the personnel classification ezercise,for the hospitals in the Province, had been complete4 and if so on what date? Tbe answer is that yea.

The survey of physicians in the hospitals was completed on November J, 1970. The survey of salaries was completed on February 8, 1971. These au'r!'eys are now Teceiving consideration by the appropriate officials both in my own department and in the Department of Finance and in the Treasury Board as well and also by the management of the hospitals concerned. I think it is well known, Mr. Speaker, that the employees are consulted as well. The hon. gentleman asked if there bad been any changes made in the classifications or salaries with reference to hospitals. The anewer is no.

If there are any changes, they will be announced in the normal way,in due course. Yea, I might add, Mr. Spaaker, I am reminded by my colleague, the President of the Treasury Board and Minister of Finance, that the hospital management throughout the Province - the hospital association, through the hospital association, have asked the Government if we would undertake and maintain the plan for ,them. We have agreed to do that. We will be retaining the necessary staff in personnel administration division. AN HON. MEmER: (Inaudible). 1836

April 23rd., 1971 Tape no. 365 Page 2 Mr. Roberts. I am sorry. The personnel classification plan - pay classification plan. It is comparable in every way to the one that applies to the Government itself. MR. CROSBIE: hospitals? MR. RQJIERTS: Do ycu mean that they want this to apply to non-Govemaent It is to apply, yes. I think. they have welcomed that and have worked with us and want us to carry on with it. Question No. 243, Mr. Speaker, by the hon. member for St. John's West. He asked a number of questions about the health resources fund.

I think that I have answered them, but if not, perhaps, he could come back at me. I think l dealt with them yesterday or the day before. MR. CROSBIE: It is $30 million you are hoping to get, is it not? MR. ROBERTS: Yea! Yea, we are entitled to $20 million·aof right, and there is an extra $10 million chunk that we are interested in acquiring. Actually, we are not talking dollars. We are talking of the percentage of the approved costs. But our estimate is $30 million. The hon. gentleman-, Question no. 244, Mr. Speaker •• MR. CROSBIE: There is no collllllitment yet, though, is there? HR. ROBERTS: Oh! no.

Indeed, I will perhaps come to that in a minute. Be asked me if architects have. been appointed to prepare the detailed plans and specifications for the new General at the University? The answer is no. He asked if any application has been made by this Government to the Government of Canada for a capital contribution from the Government of Canada towards the cost of the proposed hospitalt If so, what was the date and what replies have been received from the Government?

We have made no formal application other than about ten days ago we did apply million formally for $1.8 million of which $1.35 .. will come from Ottawa, Hr. Speaker, and that is to be used to prepare the plans for both the new hospital and the medical school, a non-hospital portion of the package. We have not, 1837

April 23rd., 1971 Tape no. 365 Page 3 Mr. Roberts. as yet received formal approval, but I have every confidence and reason to believe that we will receive formal approval. The hon. gentleman asked when does the Govem•nt intend to have~construction commence? The answer is as soon as possible. Mr. Speaker, if I might. perhaps three more questions. The hon. gentleman for St. John's East, Question no. 277. How many psychiatric hospital beds are presently available in Newfoundland and at what hospitals? He then went on to ask how many additional beds have been provided and what is the Provincial average?

I will table a copy of this - it is a list of various hospitals. There are a total of 875 psychiatric beds in the Province at the present time, Sir. Question no. 278, asked by the hon. member for St. John's East; What, if any, changes in connection with the rates of payment to physicians in respect of insured services under the Newfoundland Medical Care Insurance Act have been made or agreed to be made in 1970? The answer is none. The second part of the question, accordingly, does not arise.

The hon. gentleman might rephrase the question and ask about changes. made in 1971, because I think that that is what he might be asking about. There were none in 1970. Finally, Sir, Question No. 280, the inquisitive member for St. John's East. He asked me to list the buildings or parts thereof used by the Medicare Collllllission u of December 31, 1970 for office space or other usage in the course of its duties? As of December 31, 1970, the only building or space used by the ~ledical Care Commission in the course of their duties was in the Elizabeth Towers Building on Elizabeth Avenue here in the City.

The second part of the question: The Medical Care Commission have rented. approximately, 8,500 square feet of space from the owner of the building, Elizabeth Towers,Limited. Rental terms are for a five year lease. with an annual rental payment of $47,466. It is between $5 and $6 a square foot, from my mental arithmetic. Thank you, Sir. 1838

April 23rd., 1971 Tape no. 365 Page 4 HON. J. NOLA.~ (Minister of Supply and Services): Mr. Speaker, the answer to Quacion No. 96, asked by the hon. member for St. John's East, appearing on the Order Paper of March 25th. Was it answered already? All right. Well some of the questions I have answered before while they were on the Order Paper of that day. There was another one that I am not sure if it has been answered. If it has, perhaps the hon. members will bring-it to my attention. It is Question No. 149. The answer is a little lengthy but not too much so I do not think.

The answer to part (1) of the question is $9,184.00. Then in the second question, give a breakdown under the following headings; television advertising, radio advertising, newspaper advertising, refreshments, reception and buffet for invited guests, miscellaneous. I will attempt to answer those. Television advertising for the official opening, December 15 - nil. Open House on January 16 - $210. Radio advertising for the official opening - nil, The open House cost for that ca~egory - $300. Newspaper advertising, the official opening:- I believe the answer to that is zero. For the open-house, it was $824.39.

For the refreshments, reception and buffet for the invited guests about $425 or $450, I believe. The offic:la. opening - the cost there on December 15- was $4,550, Mr. Speaker. It was $4,550. For the,open-house, it was $58,05. Miscellaneous for the official opening, $4,634 and for the open-house on January 16. the answer is zero. Miscellaneous items, by the way, consist of the following items: souvenir ash tray• - there were about 700 to 1,000 of those prepared, I understand - about 700 perhaps. The cost was $2,345.

The descriptive brochures, about 2,000 of those - $1,200. c~N. buses were hired, two of them, and I think the cost there was $146, Mr. Speaker. The Department of Public Works' preparations was $943. The total there is $4,634 for those items. That is the answers to that Question no. 14_9. Question No. 345 - I am not sure if that has been answered or not. HR. MURPHY: Would the hon. minister permit a supplementary questiori? 1839

April 23rd., 1971 Tape no. 365 Page 5 Mr. Murphy, Television and radio advertising, no charge from CJON for the two minute spots the minister did on several occasions? MR.. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I did not say that. The hon, Leader of the Opposition said that. l did not say what stations. There were radio stations involved. I did not say what station or stations, Mr. Speaker. MR.. MURPHY: No, but the question I was asking, I heard him on several occasions on radio station CJON and on television, at least, five or six times. I had television advertising and radio advertising, nothing.

That 1 according to the answeT I got. I probably mistook •• MR., NOLAN: No, I think, I attempted to give the answer. I would be very happy to check it for the hon. Leader of the Opposition and perhaps I should repeat it for his benefit, Television advertising for the official opening, I have the answer, zero here, But for the open-house on January 16th I have $210, Mr. Speaker. That is television advertising. As for radio advertising, again it applies to the open-house on January 16 The amounts there $300. Ia that satisfactory, Mr. Speaker, to the hon ••• ? MR. MURPHY: That is fine. Thank you.

But it is a bit difficult, you know, when you get a lot of figures and try to keep them in the little space you have here, you know. If the answer were tabled, it would be much more satisfactory in a complicated question like this. MR. NOLAN: Well I am about to table the information for the bon. member; MR. MURPHY: Thank you, MR.. NOLAN: As a matter of fact I have a couple of copies of it here that perhaps soneone could take - apparently we have no pages available this morning, page boys, Perh~ps you could see that this is distributed. Excuse me, Mr. Speaker.

The last part of the other question was Question No, 149, incidentally, in connection with the ash trays and so on. I think that is all right. Question no. 345, Mr. SpeakEr. I am not sure if that question was answered or :,ot. The 'question of changing crude prices and this is Question no. 345, asked by the hon. member for St. John's East and also the product prices are under continuous review by the Newfoundland

lpril 23rd., 1971 Tape no. 365 Page 6 Hr. Nolan. Refining Company Limited, the Government's manager. The price changes, to date, to the best of my knowledge and from what information I have been able to ascertain up to this point, have not affected the original feasibility conclusions. Indeed, Newfoundland Refining have changed some of their crude oil contracts, resulting in a mre favo_urable raw material price,according to the information that has been delivered to me on this this morning. That is Question No. 345. MR. MARSHALL: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Could the minister state, categorically, whether any feasibility study has been made, commissioned by the Government and made? MR. NOLAN: I am Dot quite ~ure what feasibility study the hon. •mber refers to. There was obviously a feasibility study in connection with the oil refinery, aa all hon. members of the Bouse are familiir with. What I have said is in answer to Question No. 34S by the hon. member for St. John's East.

And that is that it is lm.der continuous review and that the Newfolm.dland Refining have changed some of their crude oil contracts and in fact they have gotten better prices on the raw material in some instances than they had formerly. Question No. 349, asked by the hon. member for St. John's West. I am not sare if this information has been provided to. the hon. member or not. If it has, I hope he would, Mr. Speaker, correct me. The question, I think is in three or four parts. The &nllW'er to part (1) is $1,090,460.

The answer to part (2) $1 million was recovered from insurance companies, leaving $90,460.00 to b~ met by the commission from its own resources. The answer to part (3), approximately $136,000. This loss incidentally, Mr. Speaker, was not covered by insurance. It is not presently covered to the best of my knowledge. That is Question No. 349. HON. E. WINSOR (Minister of Labrador Affairs): Mr. Speaker, Question no. 421, asked by the hon. member for St.

John's West, appearing on the Order Paper of April 13, I think all of the information requested in that question was answered by the hon. the Premier, when he answered 480. 1841

April 23rd., 1971 Tape no 365 Page 7 MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, part (2) has not been answered. Is Javelin Forest Products Limited recruiting,for work in the Lake Melville area, loggers at this time and if so, how many are needed? What are the wage rates? What are the working conditions offered and housing accommodation available? That part has not been answered. MR. WINSOR: That answer to that, Mr. Speaker, is that they certainly wi11 be recruiting as soon as the weather conditions improve, when they can go ahead with this year's programme. MR.

CROSBIE: Yes, but the question asks: If so, how many loggers will be needed? What are the wage rates? What are the working conditions offered and what housing accommodation is available for such workers who move to the Lake Melville area? Cou1d the minister look that up or see if he can get some information on that for us1 What will be the provision for housing? You know, what are the wages p~id and so on? How many will likely be needed? Would the minister get that information for us? MR. WINSOR: Mr.

Speaker, as this is a private enterprise, it is not easy to get all the information that is requested by the hon. gentleman but I will endeavour to get what I can. On motion, a Bill, "An Act Respecting The Application And Effect Of Certain Acts Passed In The Present Session Of The Legislature Upon The Uvised Statutes Of Newfoundland, 1970, read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Fatal Accidents Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. 1842

April 23 1 1971 T.:ipe No. j66 NC - l On motion, A B111,"An Act Further To Amend The Fatal Accidents Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, A Bill,"An Act Further To Amend The Act 4 Ed. VII Cap. 13 Entitled ··An Act To Provide For The Transportation Of Timber Over Streams And Lakes, And For Other Purposes In Connection With Crown Lands," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Coughlan College Incorporation Act, 1965," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper.

On motion, A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Women's Patriotic Trust Fund Act, 1920 1 11 read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole on Items, "7 to 21". Mr. Speaker, left the Chair .. Committee of the Whole on a Bill "An Act Respecting The Department of Social Services And Rehabilitation," (No. 13). Shall clause 23 carry. MR. ROBERTS: Yesterday in the Committee, one of the hon. members, it may have been the member for St.

John's West, said that this leaked,and what was it aboutl I have since had the matter looked into and I am told that this is not an unusual clause. I am told it was in the Act which will be replaced by this one. I am told that it is in many of the departmental Acts that have been adopted by the House. I am told the reason for it is that, the reason we feel it is necessary,is that the Government think~ we should he told when one of our employees is to be made subject to an action, 3n action for which we might be held responsible in law.

For that reason we think the clause should remain in the Bill.- 1 s I have said, there is nothing new or unusual about it. It has been in existence for many many yeamin Acts of one Department or another. 1843

April 23, 1971 T~ No. 366 NC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: I am told that it is in the Act which constituted the Department of Welfare and which is to be. repealed by this Act. MR. CROSBIE: On that point, the Minister says it is necessary so that the Department will know if there is any action taken for which the Government might be responsible, but a

section says that no action will be commenced unless notice in writing is delivered to the officer, servant or agent of the Department. It does not say that notice should be served on the Department of Welfare or on the Government, so if that is the purpose of the clause, it is not going to carry out its purpose. This clause just says that one month's notice must be given the officer, servant or agent, delivered to him or left at his usual place of residence. So if he neglects to tell the Government about it, there could be a judgment againat the Government and the Government will have no knowledge of it.

So the clause does not meet that purpose. MR. ROBERTS: Mr: Speaker, I am told the action will be against the individual but the question, and as the hon. gentleman knows, actions against the Crown are governed by a series of Acts because in Co1111110n Lav there is no action against the Crown. The law is administered by the Crown unless the Legislature provides. You cannot sue or othecyise take action against the Crown, but I aa told the purpose of this is the reason I outlined and again I say there is nothing new or different in it.

It is felt this is a necessary requirement, that an officer against whom action can be taken be given the notice and I would think it quite possible that he would not COIIDUDicate it, but I think it would be highly unlikely. MR. CROSBIE: But Mr. Chairman, this much about it. Thia can raise complications. Suppose an employee of the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation ia driving on Government business, he 1844

April 23, 1971 Tape No. 366 NC - 3 MR. CRQ_SBIE: may be using his own car and getting a mileage allowance, and he drives from St. John's to Holyrood and on the way knocks down a child or hurts him and a claim is brought against him for damages for personal injuries. Now the person injured does not sue the Government, he sues John Jones who owns the car and who was driving the car. Re is not going to give John Jones one month's notice. It does not even come to his mind that he should give him one month's notice.

But when he get into Court he may be in trouble because the agent of the Department was in the course of his employment while driving on Government business and this clause might be used against him. He is not going to think of giving one month's written notice to the employee. So even if these clauses are in previous legislation, then I think it is time the legal draftsmen for the Government looked at them and got a more sensible clause.

I suggest it should be that if an action is going to be c011m1enced against an officer, servant or agent of a Department and against the Department, for anything done in the course of his employment, that one month's notice be given. But this clause as it tands there now,is much too broad and I do not see why an agent, servant or employee of the Department should have the privileg~ of getting one month's notice before action can be taken when the .. rest :of the population does not have that privilege.

A Civil Servant driving on the highway haa cta.get one month's notice if there is going to be an action against him. You or I or anybody else of the general public does not. So it seems to me that it should be re-drafted to serve the purpose that it is intended to serve. That is, to inform the Government if an action is going to be taken that might result in the Government being responsible. 1845

April 23, 1971 Tape No, 366 NC - 4 MR. CROSBIE: So I think this clause is inadequate and I would like the Minister to discuss that, if he does not mind, with the legal people again and see should it not be re-drafted to serve the purpose intended, MR. MARSHALL: If I could just add a word to that, the Minister is right, that this is ~i other legislation. This type of legislation with respect to notice.but I would suggest that the whole basis of having a

section like this in the Act is purely and simply because the action will be taken against the employee of the Crown itself and the reason for putting in provisions with respect to notice to the Government is to assure that the Government knows before hand that an action is being taken. Otherwise it will have no'means of knowing,a writ can be issued and judgment can be procured against the employee for acts in the course of his service with the Government. I think this is the reason why the hon. member of St. John's West is quite correct, that this

section really,to carry out the :true intent, should provide that notice be given the Minister concerned, MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I can only make two or three comments. I am in the difficult position of not be equitably familiar with ~he legislation that I am sponsoring through the Conanittee. I must say that I am impressed by the points that have been raised.

I had consulted both with the Deputy Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation and I have spoken with the gentleman who is here in the Committee with me, who is a senior official and I have also had a brief session with one of our senior legal officers. I think my-colleague, the Minister of Justice, and I, share the view that we are still not satisfied. We should let it stand again so my colleague will move accordingly that the matter stand• if we can leave the Bill in Committee? 1846

April 23, 1971 Tape No. 366 NC - 5 MR. ROBERTS: I move that the matter stand. Not with a view to finding out why it is in here but with a view perhaps to raising a larger policy issue, because it is in a number of Bills, I am told it is in my own Act in the Department of Health, Highways, and so forth and so on. Indeed I, if you want to get a little radical, I think perhaps the Crown should be open to actions just aa any other body, but as the hon. and le2rned ~e~tle,nen know that is not so, for historical reasons. lut in policy I do not see why the Crown should be immune frOlll any action.

However, we will look at in on a policy view point. I earlier looked at it only from the, you kncn;- wby is it in this particular Act, if it could stand. Sir. Motion, a Bill,"An Act Respecting the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation, report progress and ask leave to sit again, A Bill,"An Act to Amend, Revise and Consolidate the Law Respecting Social Assistance (Bill No.14): MR. ROBERTS: The hon. member for St. John's West said he had some 1111endments to this Bill he wished to move in Committee. Could he let us have a copy of them so we could look at them? MR.

CROSBIE: I have not got them all written out. MR. ROBERTS: Are they long or just the strike out things? MR. CROSBIE: No, they are not long. They have to do with the Appeal Board. MR. ROBERTS: Well, let us go ahead with it and let us see, we may have to let clauses stand, but if they are short amendments we can deal with them one way or another. MR. CRQ.SBIE: Mr. Chairman, ·there are several changes I would like to suggest of course it may be a policy matter and the Government does not want to change them. But this is the

section to do with review and appeals. The first part of the

section applies to Administrator Review Co'll'Dllittee, two Assistant Deputy Ministers and one other member of the Department, who review any complaints that a person effected by a 1847

April 23, 1971 Tape No. 366 NC - 6 MR. CROSBIE: decision of a Regional Administrator may have. They can go to this Review"Board and they can make recommendations. There is a secretary to keep a record of their proceedings and then in subsection (6) the Lieutenant-Governor in Council is to appoint an Appeal Board to be known as The Social Ass~stance Appeal Board, consisting of three persons who are not employees of the Government or any Government Commission, which is very good, and, one of those people shall be the Chairman.

Now any person dffected by a finding or decision of the Review Committee or any applicant for social assistance,who does not agree with what the Review Coaanittee has decided, can appeal to the Appeal Board. As subsection (8) says,"members of an Appeal Board hold office during pleasure," that means Mr. Chairman that the members of the Appeal Board can be dismissed by the Minister or the Lieutenant­ Governor in Council at any time.

But they have no security of tenure I would like to see that changed so that the members of an Appeal Board hold office during a specific term, for good behaviour for a specific term 1 even if it is only a one year term or a two year term. It seems to me that if you are going to have an Appeal Board, the belief of people in the fairness and partiality of that Appeal Board is impaired if people know that the Appeal Board can be dismissed at any time, just at the pleasure of the Government. I feel that there should be an amendment there. I will not move one at the moment, just see what the Minister thinks about it.

That is subsection (8). Then in subsection (13), in other words if there is some misconduct by ·a. aember of the Board or some improper behaviour, naturally the Government should be able to dismiss him. -: 1848

April 23, 1971 Tape No. 366 NC - 7 MR. CROSBIE: Subsection (13) says "a person appealing to the Appeal Board under this

section is entitled, subject to the regulations,to appear before the Appeal Board, either personally or by a representative, designated by him in writing." Now Mr, Chainnan, there I would like to see the words "subject to regulations·• removed unless there is some good reason. I think it should say "a person appealing to the Appeal Board under this

section is entitled to appear before the Appeal Board, either personally or by a representative, designated by him in writing, for the purpose of presenting his case." By leaving in the words "subject to the ngulations" that means that regulations can be passed so that a person appealing is not entitled to appear before the Board, either personally or by a representative. I do not see why the words "subject to the regulations" should stay in there •. It should be a person's right to appear himself before the Board or have someone appoµited by him appear before the Board. That is subsection (13). 1849

April 23 1971 Tape 367 page 1. no, no the power is given to mak.e regulations but - what is that the government bulletin, coming out in technicolor is it? MR.S~IALLh"OOD: Suppose .,.,e are going to announce the election this afternoon, does the hon. gentleman tnink he is entitled to have our manifesto and start copying it, copying it- copy cat - MR.CROSBIE: SUppose it is Martin Goldfarb's report as the results of the poll he is doing now. That would be very interesting to have. MR.S~IALLl,OOD: I would love to have it. MR.CKOS~IE: You will. MR.S~LL\-:OOD: Who hired him to do that.

MR.CROSBIE: We are not all politically innocent. MR.SMALU.:OOD: He is doing studies for this Government as he is doing for the government, not party, Government of Newfoundland and Government of Canada, Ford Company of Canada and half the great corporations of Canada. MR.CROSBIE: Why is he asking questions such as, "what do you think of Ank Murphy"and''what do you think. of Harold Collins? MR, SMALLWOOD: Who says he is asking that? MR.CROSBIE: I have a copy of it I will show the Premier. MR,SliALLWOOD: Oh, not Mr. Goldfarb may~be somebody else - MR.CROSBIE: No, Sir, Mr.

Goldfarb, does anyone want to see a copy - MR.SMALLWOOD: I would like to see it, yes, MR.CROSBIE: These were discussed with the Premier - MR.£B&I~: Order please! MR.CROSBIE: There are no questions about the hon. minister of Education that is the amazing thing. But, to get back to this,Mr. Chairman, I think the words "subject to the regulations" there should come out because this is a

section giving the person entitled a right to appear by hir.tself or by his representatives. Then in subsection 20, it says, ~'the appeal lioard si1all subject to the regulations communicate in writing its finding or decision to the person who appealed.• Now, there again 1850

April 23 1971 Tape 367 page 2. Mr. Chairman, I submit that the Appeal lloard should be directed, it must communicate in writin?. its decision to that person. If we leave in the word "subject to the regulation" again the regulations can provide for cases where the Roard does not have to infclirm the person in writing, so again, I think that that should, those words should be removed and at the end of that clauselthis is a policy matter it says) at the end of subsection 20, that "any decision of the Board is not sub1ect to ap;--eal to or review by a court of law.H Noy, I think that is objectionable, :-Ir.

Chairman, 1 believe that if you are going to have an Appeal Board that you should be able to take an appeal from it on a question of law. For example, the denial of natural justice or if the law has been misinterpreted~ 1o not believe that we should permit an appeal to a court on a question of fact that is for the department or the appeal board to find. But on a question of law or whether there has been a denial of natural justice there should be an appeal there. Those are my points in connection with this,for that section_ so I would like to know how the minister feels about these. MR.ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, some of what the hon. gentleman sa~s is sound. Let me first of all on subclause 8, I think that was ~he first one. I must say I do not really know,and I have spoken to one or two of my colleagues,we think it is entirely reasonable and members of the board should hold office for a term, certainly, on you know the usual good behaviour.I rather like the hon. gentleman's suggestion of the year. If perhaps the law clerk could draft, would that be in order Mr.

Chainnan ' for me to ask the law clerk if he could draft an amendment to make the term, the members of the appeal board will hold office for one year eu~jecttt~ good behaviour.I do not want to take it upon myself to do the drafting. Would that be in order and in due course I will move it. MR.CkAIRMAN: I think we will have to let that stand because even if the law clerk drafted he would want to check with Jastice~on it. 1851

April 23 1971 Tape J6i page J. MR.RO[;[RTS: Well, then we will let that

section stand, the law clerk will make a note perhaps to have it looked into and, yes, I think one year is, you know, I want also to reserve on certainly sections 13, and 20 where the hon. i;:entleman uses the word subject to the regulations. I have looked tt1rough the Act and the only power I can find to make regulations is under 23 and the illustrations are K.L.& M. but I thi ~k his points are well taken but I do not want to see the words taken out unless I am sure that they do not have any other effect. I have learned that to take some words out of

an Act can change other things but there is no thought that regulations would in any way prevent a person from a hearing or is there any thought that re~ulations in any way take away from a person's right to have the decision in writing _. If the law clerk could undertake to have those looked into as well, you know, may be the words should stay in but the principle will clear up.

I also want to reserve Sir, this point about the review to a court of law, as I recall my own training,if that is the right word in law, a court no matter what any Act any Legislature the court can always hear under the prerogative writs, under the certiorari and the quo warranto and mandamus writs, ~andamus is not applicable here. Such things as denial of natural justice, you know the _right to a hearing and the right to notice, this sort of business.

I will ask the law clerk if he could consult with our own legal advisers and we will see if perhaps we should change it. ~- have no objection to appeals on points of law, but the points of law augustly right now and in any minute;as I said my impression and understanding is that no matter what

an Act says.if a court feels there is a pc,int of law involved it will . find ,,a thin edge of the wedge• 'Ihe prerogative writs were invented by the courts in Enp:land several hundred years a~o for just that purpose. As a matter of policy however we do not think appeals from adninistrativ11 matters sho11ld be subject to appeal on facts 1852

April 23 1971 Tape 3(17 page 4. this is true throughout the general structure of appeals. I would rather go at it in another way I would like to see an administrative appeal court. I would refer the hon. gentleman,if he wants some good ideas to ~tr. Justice :1aclure's,.five volUllles ti1ey no~ are, I think these are most excellent an<l I am looking at them very intently and so are a number of my colleagues. As a general matter we do not think the courts of law have any business reviewing administrative decisions~except on points of law,and I do not know if you need

an Act saying a point of law may be referred or not. I think the courts have been quite willing to take the jurisdiction where they feel that certain matters of law are involved. We would also want to reserve on that,Sir, to make sure that the legislation gives effect to the principles I have outlined. MR.lllCl<MAH: Mr. Speaker, I would like to comment just following the hon. minister's statement. I agree that decisions of administrative tribunals on questions of fact probably shoulci not be revia-ed by court~ of law.

I think a very strong case is to be made to make provisions for appeals on points of law and points of mixed fact and law. Because one problem that you sometimes face,~here there is a provision for an appeal on a point of law only, that if you get before a court, that a court will sometimes refuse to hear the appeal because they say facts are involved as well. rt is almost impossible to appeal without some facts forming part of the appeal,in order to 8et the point of law before the court.

Four years ago this House passed an amendment to the Workmen's Compensation Act whicil provided for just that, appeals on points of law and mixed fact and law. I believe that that was one of the r.,ost fon,arJ looking ;t;nencments th.::it c;;is House has passed in a lon!; time and it l1as had a very salutary effect. I can speak - }IR .P-.vi..i.:RTS: Llae of t'.,e salutary effects, we l1ave ci1angetl it a cc:-uple of years ago back tl, tl1e old syster.i - :-tR.IIICi.11,\~: :;o, no. it was in the Spceci1 From ti1e Throne but it was never c1,anged. 1853

' April 23, 1971 Tape 367 pa~e 5. MR.ROBERTS: MR. li ICl'J1A~1: Did we not put through a Bill to end that? We should ~ave. No. No. Ko, definitely not it was a - the salutory effect that that has had, nobody, it can only benefit the workmen it cannot benefit the employer because the employer has no interest in appealing. Only one appeal has been taken _. but I can cite several instances when a request was made for a written decision and the implication was quite clear that there was a further review and the satisfactory decision was rr~de. This is why - and other jurisdictions are now doing the sarr.e thing.

"lanitoba, Saskatche'lo:an did it, the KDP Government did it in s~skatchewan before it went out of office. The Labour Government in England - ~.ROBERTS: Did away with the whole s ystem of administrative - MR.HICKMAN: Right. But they did with special you know - times have changed. There was a time when that sort of legislation was absolutely necessary - MR.ROBERTS: Because the ti.mes they are changing it has already been - MR..HICIOiAN: Yes, because, you know there were abuses. The will of the legislature was being frustrated by the courts on the

interpretation of certain of these, of particularly compensation laws. Now that has changed and the pendulum swung too far the other way. But I can say without any hesitancy at all that workmen have benefitted a ~reat deal and I believe the same thing apply to this type of appeal here. If you lllllke provision for appeals to a court of law on questions of law and mixed fact in law, t'he only person who can benefit from it really will be the social, the recepient of socill assistance.

The courts will not be flooded with appeals but it is a great sobering - MR.ROBERTS: Well it is Damocles sword - MR .HICM.'1A:~: Yes, and if it has the same salutory effect, desirable result, as the Work:nen' s Compensation Appeal ,\mendmen t has,; then I am all for it. MR. BAIi E.L :1r. Chairman, if that clause had sufficient discussion may I

April 23, b71 Tape J67 page 6. revert to another clause, may I have permission bf the House to revert to clause 5 - MR.ROBER.IS~; ~Ir. Chairman, let us polish off the clause we are on before we go back.

All I can say is, without getting into debate on juris- prudence my own thinking is that all administrative appeals should be subject to an administrative appeal court, I think the Government of Canada is now movin~ towards that, Chief Justice McClure has recommended essentially that.in his reports..,.if this clause could stand we will~have a look to - to embody the policy that I have outlined~as long as the Committee are clear that the one thing we do not think is subje~t, should be subject in any way to appeal to the courts,is the policy.

If the rules say a man can only get $100 a month - ~.HlC~\~; Right, MR.ROBERTS: I do not think the courts should have the power to say it should be ~150 and that is a matter for debate in this f>rum and in the House itself and so forth,that is the matter of public policy. But a person's legal rights, indeed, if the hon, gentleman wish to look carefully at the other Bills which we are bringing in, particularly the Medicare Bill;I think we have about seventeen separate hearings on the way up before we can do the things we hope to do under that Bill. Let us let that clause stand.

If the hon. member from Fortune Bay wants to revert to a clause that is quite all right by me, Sir. Motion Clause ·12 stand. MR.EARLi::: Have I permission of the House to revert to Clause 5, MR,CHAIR.~IAN: The hon. membeJShave leave to revert to Clause 5. Agreed. MR.EARLE: ~nen the hon. minister introduced this Bill there were a number of questions which I asked, none of which he replied to, and one was particularly in connection with Clause 5. I am sorry, I must apologize to the House that t.ce went over this so quickly,! skipped it going through.

But the point ,,,.hich I wanted to make on this particular clause,that this 1855

April 23, 1971 1,-ipe 367 par;e 7. is a very r.ipen desi~nation of persons by the :unister and as it is such a sensitive area I thought that the :linister should be restricted to some degree in the selection of the proper type of persons and I think the words, '"the ~1inister r:iay designate" first ·, that if in there could be inserted "properly trained 'lualified or experienced persons" - MR.ROBERTS: Who would determine if they were properly trained, qualified or experienced? MR.EARLE: He might appoint a second cousin twice removed by marriage if if he so desires.

But I think that~this stipulation is put in there the proper type of person would be appointed. ~.ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I was not present throughout this second reading debate in the House. The only question I would raise to - first of all of course if the Minister were so ill-advised as to appoint his second cousin by marriage once removed and that second cousin were not properly trained etc. etc. etc. ~IR .HIC~HAi~: Unless he was qualified then - MR.ROBERTS: Right. The other question - 1856

April 23, 1971 T~e 368 Pk - l HR. ROBERTS: I ~'Ould raise is sill!l'lY, Mr. Chairman, words like properly trained and qualified and so forth are the sort that lawyers send their children to university on. Really they are difficult words. I would think if the minister ever improperly appointed an improper person, there are a number of avenues oren1 whereby protest could be and sh~uld be raised. So I appreciate the hon. gentleman's concern but, I do not think we need to amend the Act in that way. I say, I '-'&S not present during the debate, so I cannot speak to it in any lenJ?;ht form. I do not know·in detail.

MR. ilRLF.: I would have felt far happier, if the minister had answered, as the present member is doing. MR. ROBERTS: Well, I will also ask the persons in the committee, who are not members of the committee, if they will undertake to discuss the point with their minister to make sure, · you know. I would underl.ake to do it myself. But, like the Auditor I would forget. MR. EARLE· Shall Clause 13 carry? On Motion Clauses 13 through~l7 carried. Mil, HICKMAN: Clause 18, ~r.

Chairman, I wish to move an amendment to the Clause to insert after the word "misrepresentation," at the connnencement of line two, well first eliminate the comma, then insert the word, "or'' and then after the word"fraud" eliminate the comma, and delete the words "or any other cause." Mr. Chairman, in moving this motion and in speaking to this 1110tion I am of the opinion that a great deal of hardship has been caused to a number of recipients of social assistance in this Province, as a result of that particular provision.

The provision as it now reads says that, "any 111onies that are over paid to a recipient of social assistance become a debt to Her Majesty. There vas an indication that no hardship has ever resulted because of this." '!-fr. Chaiman. I state,without fear of contradiction 1 that hardship has resulted. And I want to place.before this committee two examples but I would also want it to be understood that I cannot and should not 1857

April 23, 1971 Tape 368 PK - 2 'MR. PICYJ'-W!· include the names. And let me first give you one involving a widow. In this case, the simplest way I can do it is by reading the letter, and leaving out the name. This is a Letter to a widow from a Regional Administrator in the Department of Social Services.

And he says; 'as a result of recently reviewinP- your case it was disclosed that your monthly income from Canada Pension was $80.32 with effect from Au,rust 1, 1969. ~However, we should like to point out that we had assessed your income from this source at a monthly rate of $54.70." And here is the ,, key to it, Mr.

Chairman, obviously ..,e erre_d when the application was completed during August 1969, accordingly we must now review your social allowance,retroactive to Au,ust 1, 1969,and reduce your award from $60.30 down to a monthly rate of $32.68. '' This means. of course, that you have been over.paid the amount of $321.44 during the period. The over payment will be recovered at the monthly rate of $10.00 C01!1tllencing with your August Social Assistance Cheque.'' And it goes on to say. tba~ • this has been done. Now what is $10.00 a month?

Let me take it on a bit further.Here is the letter that was written by this widow's cler~ to the Premier, the Minister of Welfare, and it eventually came down to one of the officials. He says, "I enclose a letter from so and so who wrote the letter for the Reyional Director of Social Services.As you can see,this letter to ~rs. so and so, is somewhat outdated and you may wonder why a mention was not made of it before. t-•rs-. is a widow. She has one daughter who iraduated from the nursing school and is now employed in St. John's.

She has one son who is out of school and who is trying to make some money to 10 back and take a course in business administration. "In a course of a visit to ~,,.. •• Piercy, just this past week she •hawed me this letter and asked me if there was anything I could do? And! will take time to do something. 'What the Regional Administrator does not seem to notice is that this is a .drastic cut in income. How in the Name of pete does he expect 1858

April 23, 1971 PK - 3 r-~. H!CF"'.AN: this widow to maintain her hotr.e, feed and clothe herself and evecythin~ else on $22.68 plus $56.91 from Canada Pension? I can contend if the past had been for~otten and if she receives the $32.68 per month this would be bad enough~ However, the Regional AdJ?,inistrator or his secretary should be held responsible for this mistake, Surely. a Government which can talk so fluently in millions of dollars, a~ your r.overn~ent have been talkin~ in recent days, would not penalize a widow for a ~istake like this.

At the rate of $10.00 a month, it will take another fourteP.n ~onths to correct this blunder and personally, I think. this is a bit too much to expect of this widow. *This letter is to appeal to you to take action at the earliest possible date to have this past debt cancelled. It was not het .mistake, and she can ill-afford to pay this and still eXt>ect to live.- And he goes on to say he is under salacy infhis Province. t feel confident that you know a better ~•ay to treat people than the way this widow has been treated. Well , ~r.

ChaiT'l!!Bn, the answer came back, •·no." 'I am sorry to tell you that there is nothing can be done under the existin~ policy. When an over payment has been incurred, there is no alternative, but to take the necessary steps to cover the amount in full at the rate suggested. Mr. Speaker, we were told that this is not done where hardship will result. Here is full proof positive of a case where undue hardship resulted and where the minister apparently finds himself in a position where he has no discreationacy power to rectify the mistake of an official.

I am no~ saying this as a condemnation of officials in the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation at all. What I am saying is that, indeed, I found them to be most co-operative and highly qualified and most conscientious But, what I do say is that, when yos are dealing with the literally thousands of clair,,s that these peoJ)le have to process in a run of a year, and the many visitations etc. that they have to make, it is enevitable that mistakes will occur. Nov when these mistakes occur. you may argue that if the widows ,ot $20.00 a month more, for a few months than she should have had that 1859

April 23, 1971 Tape 368 }IP. P!Cr.~'PI: she had benefited. But, these people are not aware of the fact that they are bein~ over paid, consequently, they budReted to spend whatever money they receive from the department at that time. Then a few months later . the error is discovered by the officials and this widow is penalized, and she is then given something less than a subsistence allot••ance, This,in rny opinion, is ouite wroni;t. The other case that I want to refer to, Mr.

Chairman, when I expressed disappointment on this particular woman I just cited, let PK - 4 me say that my words are very mild compared to the words of disappointment that were exoressed by the Rev. ~entle~an when the final decision.was received. Let me quote some of them, "it seems to me like I have been given the brush off, as far as trying to obtain justice for Mrs. P. is concerned. These 1tuys have set themselves up as such cold unfeeling administrators that they will not even allow reason to guide them. Justice for the poor and underprivile~ed is as far from their mind, as I am from the moon.

That was a stupid mistake, which need not have happened, had the person who came to get the details done his job. We take a lot that we should not have to take from this kind of administration. What is the point in tryin~ to match a machine that cost the taxpayers millions of dollars. As far as the administrator is concerned, Mrs. so and so, is _just a statis"tic and statistics can be very inhuman at times. , He concludes it by saying; ~sorry for the mood, but I guess I have just taken all the fuddle duddle that I can.'' Now the other one, Mr.

Chairman, I think is even a more striking case, if there is one more so than the other. MR. ROBERTS: Does the hon. gentleman want to make a speech or - I am willinp. to let the clause stand. I think, he has ~ot a point. I would like to finish the Bill before dinner, but, MR. P.tCIO'.AN: All rip.ht, but I can I make this other one, then I will sit down. t-'P. ROBEFTS: Make all you want, you are in order. MR. HICIQ-1AN: One more because there have been queriel about this statement 1 1860

April 23, 1971 Tape 368 PK - 5 MR. HtCKMAN: since thP.n, and I want to get the record clarified. Mr. so and so in 1958 and 1959 was employed as a miner in Tilt Cove. On or about Novetrtber 1959 he was co'l'lpelled to quit his job and return to St. Lawrence due to his wife's illness. At the time Mr. T. had twelve dependent chilc:lren livin~ at home in St. Lawrence. It was necessary for him to return to look after his wife and family durini his wife's illness. He was unemployed from November 1959 antil April 11, 1960, when he obtained a job at the mines in St. Lawrence.

He did not qualify for unemplOY!'\cnt insurance. when he returned hol!',e on Novenber 1959, and he was subsequentally issued a ''dole order amounting to $200.00. '' In any event in Octoher ·24, 1969, Dr. Brian Hollywood of St. Lawrence declared that Mr. T. was unable to continue employment. He is suffering from silicosis and Dr. Hollywood accessed his disability as •·a permanent partial disability of eir.hty percent." This in effect means, accordin1, to Dr. Hollywood, that Mr.

T. is a respiratory cripple from the effects of this disease and is totally and permanently incapacitated as far as gainful ~mployment is concerned. Mr. T. was subsequentally awarded Workmen's Compensation benefits at the rate of $193.40 per month, in addition to the amount it was adjud~ed by the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation that he was entitled to approximately $80,00 social assistance. This was subsequentally reduced to $60~00 as a former dependent that is now attending university •..

In any event, it was decided by an official in the department that the alled~ed over payment _of $200.00 was made in 1q59, should be recovered fr0111 Mr. T. This amount has been recovered in full by your department by deducting $40,00 per month from the social assistance cheque. Mr. T. has no ideas why such over payment occurred. And, indeed, the facts furnished to me was sug,ested that the dole order issued in 1959 was properly p.ranted, and we ask for a review. The word came back that there was an over payment in 1959, that in 1959 when it was discovered that !'r. T. sismed a bond to repay it.

Now this is twelve years later, 1when the man is totally, permanently disabled, and is placed on Workmen's Compensation. And the first thin~ that 1861

April 23, 1971 Tape 368 PK - 6 ~- PtCK~'AN: this denart~ent,which is suppose to be the heart and the soul of the administration of Government~deducts that $200.00 from this man who still has four dependent~children. And this is why, and I gather from the minister's comments that he believes that he has no discreation there. In the same breath he says, we never do it, when it ca•:ses tmdue hard!lhip. This is why. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that if a person deliherately misrepresents the facts, fraudulently misrepresents the facts, then obviously this should be a debt of the Crown.

But any other cause, catches up this business of mistakes on the part of those administerinr this pro~ramme and no recipient of aocial assistance should be penalized for that mistake. ~- ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, f!1Y collea~ue, the minister with the brilliant heart is not here, and so I do not want to ccmmitt us on a matter of policy for which he is responsible. I think, there are one or two things I could say by way of general 3pplication and I think I will move that the clause stand until my colleague can have a detailed look at it.

First of all, you say the principle which the Government have followed generally and I know nothing of the details of the two cases in question, I know of several, indeed I know one in the hon. gentleman's constituency 1when I was the minister,where we went to Treasury Board and got authority to pay it back. We ~ecovered an over-payment, mind you improperly, and the Treasury Board~which has the authorityTfelt that I forget the case, but I am reminded of it. That is because I have a brilliant head and not a brilliant heart, I would guess.

We do have authority under the Revenue and Audit Act to write off the amounts, Mr. Chairman, and it~ our general policy 1 I am told, where we have . made the mistake we write it off and I am quite surprised by this letter from this clerizyman. first of all, The reason for that is twofold, Sir, 1862

April 23, 1~71, Tape 3(,1), Pare 1 -- apb }!R. ROBERTS: - -----... __ _ ~here we make a mistake, where one of our officials makes a mistake, we as the Government feel that we should not penalize an individual. Secondly, there is the feelin~ that to cut a person below the amount specified for social assistance is really in effect makin~ a mockery of the social assistance concep~ which in effect is a guaranteed annual income. Although we have raised it, it is not as high as it could be and as hip:h as it probably should be. Having said that 1 I am not prepared to accept the amendment.

I am prepared to ask that the clause stand until my colleague can look at it and, you know, he is directly responsible, he is more intimately involved with the problem. We would have to have a lookat the Revenue and Audit Act which I think requires us to collect overpayment subject to - we have to• set them up as debts and then we can subsequently write them off.

I know cases,to my own knowled~e,where I have been involved as the member for the district,within the past year.where our officials have made a commitment, and even though they mi,ht not have had the power to do it, they maybe made a mistake, we have honoured that commit~ent. That is a principle I think with which we all agree. I am not too sure I should accept an amendment to the Act, but I will ask that it stand so that my colleague can look at it vi.th a v!ew to seeing if there should be further changes made, ~hether there should be a change in the Legislation or whether it should be done another way.

I think we do feel,Mr. Chairman, that there is some validity indeed, and it is our policy that where we do, where one of our officials do and we are responsible really.we should not penalize a person for that. On the other hand, I assume the hon. gentleman would a~ree that by our mistake and overpayment beyond - when I say an overpayment is made and the person can afford to pay it back,he should be required to pay it back. There is an area obviously in between there which is the area causing the trouble now. I think I sould let my colleaPJe look at it so that he can devise the means to deal with it. 1'~ • .

HIC~!MZ: I would like to hear the hon. minister's views on this otl,er 1863

April 23, 1971, Tape 369, Pare 2 -- apb case I cited, the eleven year old debt. ~'R. ROB[P.TS: The eleven year old debt, you know I really - I followed what the hon. rentleman was sayin~ but I do not know anything about it at all. I would want to be able to review the file and see what the trouble is. Would it be in order to apply to have a write-off made?

I do not know if it has been done, but as a means of getting it reactivated, perhaps the hon. gentleman could ask the person involved or acting in behalf of the person,if he wishes, to apply to the minister or who ever he likes to have the matter reviewed. ~e do write off, I do not know how many, but hundreds literally. We wrote off the other day I know - I know we wrote off fifteen hundred separate bills at the Stephenville hospital that came to a total of $6,227.00. You know, less than four dollars each, old cottage hospital accounts. We write off large numbers of these things. MR.

HICJ..J 'AN: This is not a case of write.off because, the two hundred dollars has been ••. MR. ROBERTS: Well, we might have to write it off by means of - we have done that. to my certain knowledge where w~ in my view, when I was minister, made a mistake I went to my colleagues and got authority and we paid back an overpayment that we had taken back in my view improperly, and that was the Government's view. Perhaps, I do not know anything about the case.

The official I have with me does not know the details, you know, so I am not going to say ·aye,•· or ''nay." I have learned the hard way that there is often much more to these things than meets the eye. MR. CROSBIE: ~--- - ------ - Nr. Chairman, when the minister is - this clause is going to stand, but when it is being considered, if the department does not want to make the full change suggested by the hon. member for Burin, would they consider putting some time limitation on this debt business. For example as the minister knows ••• MR. ROBERTS: Well, six years is the normal ••• !~:_C~~§~J!~.

Yes, to collect an ordinary civil debt is six years, but under tbe present law as it stan·as now they can !!O back unlimited time. I 1864

April 23. 1971, Tape 369, Pa~e 3 -- apb know under the Income Tax Act, they can ~o back unlimited time if there has been misrepresentation or fraud, but only four But only four years otherwise. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, but only four years otherwise, but I think this is worth considering. Also, this is not the hon. 1; .,.~1Jer oo;>osi~e' s fault . but, when the Bill was being discussed at second reading ••• MR. ~ALUs'OOD, (J. R.): (Inaudible) MR. CROSBIE: MR. ROEEP.rs: Right, it is his hon. colleaFue who is not here. With all this Government legislation ••• MR. CROSBIE: That is the point lam coming to. MR.

SMALLWOOD: ------- · (Inaudible) MR. CROSBIE: If the Premier is not careful, I will say it is the hon. the Premier's fault, and I am sure that will horrify him. HR. S?'ALLWOOD: Jo'R. CROSBIE: 1'!11 • sn.r,uroon : fault., . MR. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: MR. HICK!-!AN: It is not the fault of the hon. minister opposite. "The hon. member said, it is not the hon. minister opposite's Well, it is dubious ••• I am onlv a poor city boy, the barefoot boy from Circular Road. With the highest marks ever made by a Newfoundlander in a Canadian Law School. }!R.

ROBERTS: ---- ------ I would not hold that against them, the law schools have improved substantially since then. ?-'ll. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, let us get back on the record here. MR • S?-~L 1mon : What marks did he iet in politics? f"R. CT'OS!BE: White shirt politics? So far one hundred percent. There was a sli~ht interruption in 1969 which we hope to fix up this year. I am doing a suppl~~entary in 1971. ( Inaudible) I ~~uld like to see the results of that poll when the hon. Premier has them. 1865

April 23, 1971, 'Iape 369, Pag:e 4 -- apb MR. ~~\LLW0OD: I do not want to WTeck the hon. ~entleman. I-IR. CROSBIE: I see. MR. ~!ALLHJOD: It is bad enough. I have had to put up with it here in this House, I do not W3nt to make it any worse. MR. CROSBIE: I will have to come over and see him at Russwood Mr. Chairman. Now, to get back just to this po~nt, I brought up the other day, and perhaps there is nothing that can be done about it, but in the case of workmen's compensation and the man who receives short-term assistance while he is waitin~ to have his claim dealt vi.th by workemen's compensation.

In this particular case he had eleven children and he received $265.00 from October 15, to January 15, from the Department of Welfare while he was waiting to have his claim dealt with. When his claim was recognized by the Workmen's Compensation Board it was seventy-five percent of his wages which came to three hundred and some odd dollars. Workmen's Compensation Board deducted everything that had been paid by the Department of Welfare and sent him a cheques for seventy-six dollars. My point is this, seventy-five percent of that man's wages for himself, his wife and eleven children is low enough.

What he got from the Department of Welfare during the three months was pretty low for a man and his wife and eleven children. The minister said a few moments ago, when there is a case of an overpayment you should not take it back if it is going to bring him below the social assistance rate ••• MR. ROBERTS: That was not the case of an overpayment, that was the case of almost of Welfare Department advancing bridge financing. MR.

CROSBIE: -------- Right, well I submit in a case like this, the one I cite, if the effect of the Department of Welfare bein~ repaid by the Workmen's Compensation Board is to bring that ma.n's - in receiving income from the workmen's Compensation Board less than he would get if he wen• livinp. on social assistance, long-term say with eleven children, then the Department should not insist on havini all that i:ioney repaid. Or, if Work?11an's Compensation is too low for example, it does not 1866

April 23, 1°71, Tape 369, Pa,e 5 -- apb bring a man up to the income he would get even on welfare, then the Departnent of Welfare should supplement the Workmen's Compensation. MR. ROBERTS: i!R. CROSBIE: -- - ·-· -----· They will do that, yes. Well, in this case you see they had gotten all their money back from the Workmen's Compensation Board and leaves this man in a very poor condition. Would the minister consider that when he is considering these other problems. MR. ROBERTS: I will have a look into it Mr. Chairman, but I can see some distinctions.

First of all the Workmen's Compensation is related to salary and salary in turn is not related to - you know, I draw the same amount of salary as my colleague the Minister of Provincial Affairs who has a large family, mostly grown now, but with ten or eleven children

whereas I have none. Yet payment to a Minister of the Crown is the same,

whereas, the .., social assistance is payable on the number in family. I will have it looked at, but my quick analysis is not to agree with the hon. gentleman because, if we were to - what the Department of Welfare are doin, in effect is advancing interim financing. They are saying, "well look old man, you have no cash, you must live, here is cash to live on. " If they were not to recover that, now they may recover it in small amounts, there might be a case for that, if they were not to attempt to recover it what they would be doing is giving that man more than he ~s entitled to under Workmen's Compensation.

That to me would be quite unfair to every­ body else under Workmen's Compensation who just got his seventy-fiver percent because he had enough cash or credit and did not have to go to welfare officers. You know, I will make sure to look into it, but I am not overly impressed. MR.

CROSBIE: My point is thou~h, if aa the minister says, Workmen's Compensation is based on your wages and your salary, the maximum you can get is seventy - five percent of what you were bein 1t paid. ~ow where a l!lan with eleven children is only receiving several hundred dollars a month, you know low wages, seventy-five percent of .that is not even as much as he would yet 18G7

April 23, 1971, Tape 369, Page 6 -- apb if he were on social we 1f are. lffi.. ROBE.RTS: ---- ... . . ~ .. -- In that case Sir, he is entitled to more just as - it is not ren~rally realized, but a person working full-time who is not earning as much as he is entitled to under Social Assistance may get a supplemental benefit. There is a irnaranteed a:1z-.ual in..::ome in Newfounc'land. MR. CROSEIE: I will write the department about this fellow. M". ROBE~TS: Yes, there is a guaranteed income.

If the effect of that recovery of the so called overpayment was to reduce the man below what he would have had on social assistance, then it is wrong and it is an administrative decision and it should be set straight. I have no hesitation in saying that at all. If the hon. gentleman has- enough children and little enough income, he too can apply. I am serious, there is a supplemental benefit. 't-'R. CROSBIE: t!R. ROBERTS: Even if you are working you can get the difference. Yes, yes, there is a guaranteed income annually, it is the minimum rate on social assistance.

You do not have tieunemployed to get it, " you have to be in need. Motion, clause 18 stand. Motion, that the Committee report nrneress vn this Bill.carried. Item 9, 'An Act To Amend, Revise And Consolidate The Law Respecting Accident And Sickness Insurance." (no. (9). Motion, clauses 1 to 16 carried. MR. L.R.Ct.:RTIS: Clause (17), Mr. Chairman, instead of the age of twenty-one years, I move it be, ''who has reached his majority.'' I say that because there is some talk about bringing in a Bill to make the age nineteen instead of twenty-one. MR.

CHA rn".A~: · wbo has reached his majority." The motion is that clause (17), subsection (2) read, a beneficiary who has attained the age of eighteen years has ••. ?'T'.. CUl'TIS: -·- --· ·--- · r-:o, the one before it too,. (17-1), the third line. MR. CJ-IA lll.''AN: The

section should read, except in respect his rights as beneficiary, a minor who has attained the a~e of sixteen years has the capacity of a person who has reached his majority 1868

April 23rd •• 1971 Tape no. 370 Page l Kr. Chairman. and sub.section (2) , a beneficiary who has obtained the age of eighteen years has the capacity of a person who has reached his majority. On motion amendment carried. On motion Clause (17) to Clause (43) carriEd. Motion that the committee report having passed the Bill with some amendments, carried. · A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Registration Of Deeds Act." MR.. CHAI'RMA.",q: Thia Bill is standing. We have Clause (4) standing. Ml.. ctlR'IIS: ·1r. Chairman, could we now call it l:00 P.M.? MR. CHAIRMAN: It being now 1:00 P.M., I do lea,re the Chair-until 3:00 P.M. 18u9

PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 N.umber 28 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, APRIL 23, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

April 23rd, 1971 Tape 371 JM - 1 The Committee of the Whole resumed at 3:00 P.M. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! HON. J. R. S!-K.ALLT.moD (PREMI'P.R) : Mr. Chai man, I would like to move that the Connittee rise; report pro~ress and ask leave to sit again presently. On motion, that the COllll!littee rise and report, having passed Bill No. 9, "An Act To Amend, Revise And Consolidate The Law Respecting Accident And Sickness Insurance," with some amendments, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. NOEL: Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and direct me to report having passed Bill No. 9, "An Act To Amend, Revise And Consolidate The Law Respecting Accident And Sickness Insurance," with some amendments, reports progress and asks leave to sit again. On motion,report received and adopted. On motion, Amendments read a first and second time. On motion, Bill ordered read a third time on tomorrow. On motion, Committee ordered sit again presently, by leave. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, I know that we have agreed in this House that we would leave it to Your Honour to express words of welcome to special visitors in the strangers galleries and I have no intention of breaking that rule. However, Sir, today in the galleries we are visited, we are honoured by some very, very special visitors some seventeen or eighteen Newfoundland citizens, twenty Newfoundland citizens from Labrador, Indian people and Eskimo people. They are here in St. John's and they are visiting us this afternoon and I want them to know that they are very, very welcome in the peoples' House.

Their member, the Minister of Labrador Affairs.is able to address them in Eskimo and I am sure that we will all like to hear him do so,after Your Honour has expressed the official welcome to them. MR. SPEAK.ER: I know that all members of the House will join with me in welcoming these twenty citizens from Labrador North to this House of Assembly. 1870

April 23rd, 1971 Tape 371 JM - 2 MR. SPEAKER: I cannot greet them in their own tongue although I suppose that in a few years time the Speaker's office 1 it will be a matter of fact that he will have to be at least quadlingual in order to fill this post but seeing that I cannot do that, my Eskimo and Indian as well is very limited, I would ask the hon. member for Labrador North, the hon. Minister of Labrador Affairs, if he could express the welcome of the Chair and the welcome of the House to these citizens from Labrador North. HON. E. WINSOR(MINISTER OF LABRADOR AFFAIRS): Mr.

Speaker, I do not know how well I can c0111111unicate in the Eskimo and Indian language to the visitors in the gallery but, Sir, before I attempt to do that I would say that those gentlemen are from the northernmost part of our Province. They come here . to attend the Fishery College.at some handicap because of the language barrier, However, they are, I think, making great progress and will return· to their hames that much the wiser for having to attend it here. Some of them are learning how to mend nets and make nets and others are learning small boat navigation.

Sir, the ones that are studying navigation have to traverse in unchartered waters all the way from Makkovik, Hain up as far as Cape Chidley and, Sir, apart from practical knowledge, I think, the p.ractical navigation will be a great asset to them. Illitannamek nakumepugut elipae Labradoremut St. Johnsemut amalgo pitaiagatse auliasamek eliniaveme nakumek. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE: MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! A Bill, "An Act-Purther To Amend The Registration Of Deeds Act." HR. CHAIRMAN: carry? There is one clause left standing, Clause 4. Shall Clause 4 HOR. L.R.

CURTIS(MINISTER OF JUSTICE): I would say in connection with Clause 4, Mr. Chairman, that I have taken the matter up with the Registrar of ,, 1871

April 23rd, 1971 Tape 371 JM - 3 MR. CURTIS: Deeds and he tells me that fifty cents a page is the actual cost and therefore ve could not consider anything less. On motion, Clause 4 carried. Motion that the C.onmittee report having passed the Bill without amendments, carried.

A Bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt An A~reement Made Between Her Majesty In Right Of Newfoundland, Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation And National Sea Products Limited And To Make Provision Respecting The Making Of Certain Monetary Grants And The Payment Of Certain Subsidies And Respecting Other Matters Connected Therewith." Motion that the Committee report having passed the Bill without amendments, carried. A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Companies Act." Motion that the Conmittee report havin~ passed the Bill without amendments, carried.

A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Survivorship Act, 1963." 0a motion, Clausel carried. MR. J.C. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, there is a question o~ Clause Z there. I wonder if the Minister checked it out and made sure it is all righti ROH. G.A. FREClCER(MINISTER OF PROVINCIAL AFFAIRS): Mr.

Chairman, I did check it out and I find that the couple of Acts involved, the Life Insurance Act had section (47) 1 When reference ia made to the sections in question (these are the ones that the hon, ~ember for Burin questioned the other day u being ambiguous) we note both sections cover simultaneous debts with . wordin~ of a similar nature with the exception that section (47) of the Uniform Life Insurance Act refers to section (25) ·sub-section (1) of Life Insurance A~t, 1960

whereas

section (2') of the Accident and Sickness Insurance Act, that is Bill (9) now under consideration, refers to section (24), sub-section (2) of that Act." I believe that when the hon. member for Burin 1872

April 23rd, 1971 Tape 371 .JM - 4 MR. FRECKER: vas questioning it he had not looked through Bill 29, sub-section (2), section (24). You see section (25) of the Life Insurance Act, 1960 has this to sayi "If a beneficiary predeceases the person whose life is insured and no disposition of the share of the deceased beneficiary in the insurance money is provided in the contract or by a declaration the share is payable (

a) to __ the surviving beneficiary,"that is the contingent beneficiary. For instance, if there is a life insurance policy which names say the wife as the beneficiary and the wife is killed in the same accident and the insurer,whether he was killed si1DUltaneously with his wife or not,is considered to be the one still holding the insurance policy. Now he l!light have mentioned in_.his will that there is a contingent beneficiary, for instance his daughter.

Now the two Acts are so worded now that it would revert automatically to the insurer's representative or estate and not to the family of the beneficiary, the wife's family. Now that is basically what it does and it makes it uniform for the two Acts. MR. CIOSBIE: The beneficiary, it is assumed, dies first. MR. FRECKER: It is assumed that the beneficiary dies first and rather than have the policy go to the beneficiaries wife.which might mean the wife's family, if she happens to be the beneficiary it will go back to the estate, the insurer's estate.

I do not knov if I am making it quite clear there but it does two things, it brings our Act into 1873

April 23rd., 1971 Iape no. 372 Page 1 mrw Hr. Frecker. uniformity with the Acts acroes Canada, and it also brings our Suvivorship A ct into uniform practice with our Life Insurance Act. Motion that the collllllittee report having passed the Bill without amendments .-carried. A Bill, "An Act To Repeal The Department Of Municipal Affairs Amendment Act, 1969. Motion that the committee report having passed the Bill without amendment, carried. A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Insurance Conqmnies Iax Act." Motion that the c011111ittee report having passed the Bill without aaendment 9 carried.

A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend "nle Insurance Contracts Act, 19'1." Motion that the committee report having passed the Bill without '• &Mnclment, carried. A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Fire Inaurance Act, 1957." On mption ,Clause (1) carried. Ml.. MARSHALL: With respect to Clause (2), we see here, written notice to be given by the insurer to the insured of fifteen days. I think the intention of the Act is to make it uniform throughout Canada. One of the dangers of having 1miform legislation is that it may not suit the particular province.

Now in this instance I just ask the minister whether due consideration has been given as to whether this is a long enough period of time. We have people today in the galleries from Labrador. I am speaking, particularly, with respect to the remoter areas of the Province. We know 1874

April 23rd., 1971 Tape no. 372 Page 2 Mr. Marshall there that the mail system in the Province is not aa good as perhaps it should be. It sometime takes quite a long period of time for mail to go from one point to another. I am juat wondering whether the minister haa given full consideration. I know you will not have the uniform Act here,but whether fifteen days ·1• really sufficient for this Province • .. . MR. FRECKER: Let me say, Mr. Chairman, that that situation would exist in the North West Territories and the more remote places.

I would be willing to take a chance and say that the Superintendent of Insurance baa taken that factor into account, becau e as hon. members are well aware, ve were very conscious of that factor of distance and communications in Newfoundland, when we ame11ded another Act last year. We gave ten days, when the other province  only gave five for a particulr case. So, I would say yes that if it would please the hon. member I could just put in a pJtone call and make a dobble check on that and let hi• know. Thank you. Are we finished with that Act, Mr. Chairun. On mtion Claue (2) standing, agreed.

On mtion Clauae (3) to Clauae (5) carried. A Bill, "An Act Further To AMnd The Memorial University Pensions Act." Motion that the coaittee report having passed the Bill without amendment, carried. A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Willa Act." Motion that the coaittee report having paaed the Bill without aaandamut, carried. ::. A Bill, "An Act . Further To Amend The Annual Vacation With Pay Act, 1969." Motion that the collllittee report having paaaed the Bill without amendment, carried. MR. FRECKER: Hay I interrupt. I just checked with the officials in 1875

April 23rd., 1971 Tape no. 372 Page 3 Mr. Frecker my department and this question of time did come up at the conference of superintendents and Churchill and a different number of places were diacussed. They felt that fifteen days - bearing in mind modern systeJDS of comanmication and so on, would be adequate. A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Fire Insurance Act, 1957." On motion Clause (2) carried. Motbn that the committee report having passed the Bill without amendment. carried.

A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Community And Social Development Act, 1966." Motion that the committee repott having passed the Bill without -ndment, carried. On motion that the committee rise report having passed Bills: 6, 7, 8, 10, .11, 19, 25, 27, 32, 38, 40 and 42 without amendment, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. NOEL: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report having passed Bills no.6,7,1, 10, 11, 19, 25, 27, 32, 38, 40, and 42 without amendments, cd ask leave to sit ~gain. On motion report received and adopted.

Bille ordered 1:ead a third tiae, by leave. On motion a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Insurance Contracts Act, 1961," r@ad a tt,i!'d tit!!'!, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Fire lnsunnce Act, 1957, read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Suvivorship Act, 1963, 1 · 1 read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper.

On motion a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Insurance Companies Tax Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. 187&

April 23rd., 1971 Taite no. 372 Page 4 On motion, a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Memorial University, (Pensions) Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On mGtion, a BilJ, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt An Agreement Made Between Her Majesty In Right Of Newfoundland, Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation And National Sea Products Limited And To Make Provision Respecting The Making Of Certain Monetary _Grants And The Payment Of Certain Subsidies And Respecting Other Mat~ers Connected Therewith.

"read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion. a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Companies Act.'' read a third time, ordered passed ud title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a Bill, "An Act Furtber ·'lo Amend The Registration Of Deecls Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On 1110tion, a Bill, "An Act To Aaand l'be De1>artment Of Community And Social Development Act, 1966," read a third time, ordered passed and title be u on the Order Paper. 1877

April 23., 1971 Tape 373 PK - 1 On Motion a Bill, ''Im Act To Repeal the Department of Municipal Affairs (Amendment) Act 1959, read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On Motion a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Annual Vacations With Pay Act, 1969," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On Motion a Bill, "An Act Further To .Amend The Wills Act.'' read a third time, ordered passes and title be as on the Order Paper. MR. CURTIS: Order 23.

Motion: Second reading of a Bill, "An Act To Protect Certain Persons Rendering Aid Following An Accident, Or- In An Eme~gency." (Bill No. 24) MR. CURTIS: Mr. Speaker, in moving the second reading of this Bill, I would just like to say that this is one of these Bill's reconunended by the Gushue COll'llllission. It is really a Good Samaritan bill. If there is an accident and you or I or anybody else offers voluntarily to aid 81'l injured man or woman, we,under the present Law, we may become liable in the event of our mistakinglyactin, in some way that we should not have acted in.

Thia Act protects people who good faith reidera first aid or any other aHistance to an injured person. Thia will be followed by another Bill . which, protects such a person too in the event of further injury. I move secor. reading. On Motion a Bill, "An Act To Protect Certain Persons Rendering Aid Following An Accident Or In An Emergency," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. MR. CURTIS: Number twenty-four. · Motion: Second readinit of a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Criminal Injuries Compensation Act, 1968." JIIR. CURTIS: ur.

Speaker, this will cover such a person in the event of a subsequent accident. For instance, if a person is injured on a road and the citizen goes to the help of the injured person and another car 1878

lpril 23, 1971 Tape 373 PK - :2. MR. CURTIS: comes and runs into him, while he is so engaged, he is entitled to protection. The object of this Act is to give him protection. I will move second reading. MR. SPEAKF.R: Is the House ready for the question? MR. CROSBIF.: Mr. Speaker, in connection with this Bill, The Criminal Injuries Compensation Act was passed in 1968, I think, it has been proclaimed fatrly recently, within the last twelve months anyway. No, I think, it was even more recent than that.

I believe, the minister said that - instead of appointing a board, I believe, it is the Workmen's Compensation Board was appointed, as a board to act in this connection IDltil the Government appoints a permanent board. Now there is no need of a permanent board. It is only a board that needs to meet on a rare occasion when there may be a claim for compensation under this. But, I do not think, myself, that the Workmen's Compensation Board is the correct board in administering this Act.

I wonder why the Government just does not C4lrry:.out the original legislation and appoint three people to this Criminal Injuries C0111Pensation Board. I wonder could the minister tell us when it is planned that this is going to be done or is it planned to leave this in charge of the :Workmen's Compensation Board for quite a period of time? For example, the Workmen's Compensation Board does not, none of the c0111111issionera are lawyers, for example. This is a kind of legislation that requires, I think, at least one member of the board to be a lawyer.

And rey own view:is the Workmen's Compensation Board is not the right board. Now admittedly it may not have too much to do, but could the minister tell us how long it is intended to leave this under the Workmen's C0111J)enaation Board? MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. member speaks now he will close the debate. . -MR. CURTIS: I think, Mr. Speaker. the point is well taken, and that perhaps the board to·be appointed should be a separate board, at least containing a lawyer, if not presided over by a lawyer. But ·this is an experiment just to find out where we are.

We only have one real case pending, and we will ·see just how that one fares. We will judge accordingly • .,.,: ., It is difficult to set up a real board, unless we have some idea of the magnitude and number of the cases to come before us. The fact that we 187~

April 23, 1971 Tape 373 PK - 3 MR. CURTIS: have asked the Workmen's Compensation Board to act, in the interim, does not su~gest for a minute that they will do it all of the time. But, they have more knowledge of this kind of thing than any .other board we just pick up off the street at the moment. I think it is a rather good idea. But, purely a temporary measure, and an experimental measure. On Motion a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Criminal Injuries Compensation Act, 1968," read a second time, ordered referred to a C011111ittee of the Whole Rouse presently by leave. MR. CURTIS: Number 38.

Motion:Second reading of a Bill, "AD Act To Amend The Constabulary_. Pensions) Act, 1970," (Bill No. 4) MR. CURTIS: The object of this Bill, Mr. Speaker, is to enable the Govemment to retire a Chief of Police at age sixty ral!her than at •ixty-five, should there be in his opinion a reasonable cause so to do. I move this amendment accordingly. On Motion a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Constabulary(Pensions) Act, 1970,'' read a second time, Ml. CURTIS: Number th1rty-rour. L " Motion" Second reading of a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Statute aw. (Bill No. 17) MR. CURTIS: Mr.

Speaker, this Bill is a~ftry short Bill, the object of it is to make certain obvious corrections in legislation put through some years ago, where there is obviously a printers error, or other careless errors. There is no change in the intent of the Bill, it is as originally passed. I 1110ve second reading. 1880

April 23, 1971 Tape 373 PK - 4 MP-. SPEAKER: Is the House ready for the question? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker. I notice that part of this amendment is to correct an error in the ~ublic ~ervice Collective Har~aining Act of 1970, half the Bill is directed to that purpose. Has the Public Service Collective Bargainini Act of 1970 been proclaimed?

I do not believe it has. ~his is the legislation that the various labour unions in the Province and the Federation of Labour have send me copies of a telegram they send to the Government urging the Government not to proclaim this Public Service Collective Bargaining Act, 1970, until after the Cohen Commission reports. That Act was passed last year by this House, Mr.

Speaker, and at that time I remember pointing out that it did not appear to be a very great ste~ forward in collective bargaining for the civil servants and public servants of this Province; that most of the Public Service Collective Bargaining Act leaves everyting entirely in the hands of the Government all powers in the hands of , the Cabinet.

Under that legislation Government can pass regulations, the Lieutenant Governor-in-Coun~il can, to permit ·: o·r not to perm.it collective bar1taining, to permit groups of employees to go on strike or to forbid them going on strike, does not provide COIIIPUlsory arbitration. In fact, it is not a step forward at all in the collective bargaining process for the public serv~nts of this Province. I wonder, since this is an Amendment to this Bill, whether the minister would tell us, does the Government intend to proclaim that Act or not?

It may be that I am wrong, it is proclaimedi Although, I do not think so, Is it proclaimed, or if it is not, does the Government intend to proclaim it? Or is the Government going to do as the labour bodies of the Province have requested, not proclaim this Act or proceed further until they receive the Report of the Cohen C0111111ission on Labourl Could the minister tell us something on that? MR. E. S. JONES: Mr. Speaker, the Collective Bargaining Act, (Act No. 85) of 1970." It is the responsibility of the Minister of Finance, and in reply to the hon. the 'member for St. John's West this Act has not been 1881

April 23, 1971 Tape 373 PK - 5 ml. JONES: pl"oclaimed. Pe are cognizant of all of the complaints that have come in about the Act,from labour organizations. We are in the process of draftin~ regulations. We are working in close co-operation with representives of the public service, CUPE, N.G.E.A., the Nurses Orgainzation, and others. And as this has been our first adventure into collective bargainin~ in the public service in Newfoundland, the first in our history, and we are not prepared,I would say,to copy bolus-bolus things that have been done in other provinces We are making haste very, very slowly.

We want to be sure, We are fully aware of all these things and I may say that I am very, very pleased with what has taken place within the past few months in our negotiat~ons with various groups representing the public service and hospital employees and others, Things seem to be going very, very smoothly. I can assure this House, Mr.

Speaker, that when we bring in the Collective -Bargaining for the Public Service Act aod .the regulations, we would hope that we would have brought in something that will be completely satisfactory, not only to Government . but. also_ to the representatives of the various groups of employees. On Motion a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Stat~e I.aw," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. MR. CURTIS: Number thirty-five. Motion: Second reading of a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The

Summary Jurisdiction Act." (Bill No. 34) HR.. CURTIS: Mr. Speaker, this is a Bill to amend the claues in the

Summary Jurisdiction Act dealing with an enquiry in respect of fires throughout the country. At the moment it is obligatory for all magistrates to have a magisterial ·enquiry in case of every fire. But there are cases where that is rurely a waste of time and the object of the present Act is to provide that the magistrate or any justice designa~ed by the minister may conduct an enquiry, if he so directs, and shall do it if instructed by the Director of Publi~ Prosecutions. There are cases where it is useless and needless to conduct an enquiry, but this puts the onus 1882

April 23, 1971 Tape 373 !41t. CURT!S· on the Director of .Public Prosecutions. · I move second reading. MR. SPEAKER: Is the House ready for the question? Carried. PK - 6 On Motion a .Bill, "Ari Act Further To Amend The Suuanary Jurisdiction Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a COl!llllittee of the Whole Bouse presently by leave. MR. CURTIS: Number thirty-six. Motion: Second reading of a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Stamp Act.,. (Bill No. 21). MR. CURTIS: Mr.

Speaker, the object to this Bill is just to do away with the nonsense of having every magistrate having to keep a supply of tap• on hand, instead of having stamps now, he will collect the fee me! the auditor we send around to visit the magistrial offices every ,ear, he will see that the monies collected are passed into the department for auamons issued and like thin~s. Just the way you- indicated,doing _,.., with the stamps, which really cost 1110re than they are worth. I 1110ve second reading. 1883

April 23, 1971 Tape No. 374 NC - 1 On motion a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Stamp Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole on aundry Bill, Mr. Speaker left the Chair: Committee of the Whole on Bill, "An Act To Protect Certain Persons Rendering Aid Following An Accident Or In An Emergency." MR.

MARSHALL: Is this Bill broughC in because of instances where doctors, nurses, etc., people rendering aid in accidents have been sued or ia it because of the purpose of having uniform legislation, similar legislation. I mean, does the Govemment feel this is necessary in order to assure that professional people like doctors and nurses will render aid in such circumstances? MR. CURTIS: It allows anybody to render aid, and it protects the doctors and nurses if they are not there professionally. In other words if a doctor passes an accident,he is not going to act unless they have their HCP card, I suppose.

The victim may be too sick to produce this card but that is just by way of accom1t. The whole idea is to protect. No other Canadian Province has this legislation except Alberta. But I thinlt it is good legislation. You read what happens in the States where a woman is attached and everybody looks out the window, nobody is prepared to do anything about it because they do not want to get mixed up in it. Thia is purely to protect. To allow people to feel that they can go to the aid of one another without rwning the risk,of moving a person, for instance ,who had a back injured. You have to move them.

What are you going to do, let them stay there? It is a case of really encouraging people to come to the help of people who are injured. I have no case where it has come up. 1884

April 23. 1971 Tape No, 374 NC - 2 Motion. that the Committee report having passed the Bill. without amendments. carried, A Bill. "An Act To Amend The Criminal Injuries Compensation Act, 1968." Motion, that the Committee report having passed the Bill, without amendments, carried. A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Constabulary (Pensions) Act, 1970." Motion, that the Committee report having passed the Bill. without amendments, carried. A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Statute Law," MR. NOEL: Clause (3) - There are some amendments drawn to my attention.

In subsection (2) the 1110tion is that the words "is deemed to have" be struck out and the word "shall" be inserted in their stead, Carried. On .the third line of subsection (2), "to" in the said subsection (1) came into force," should be "come into force~• delete "came" and insert "come," Carried. On motion clause (3) as amended. Carried. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the Bill, with some amendments, carried. A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Smnmary .Jurisdiction Act." Motion, that the Committee report having passed the Bill, without uaendments, carried.

A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Stamp Act." Motion, that the Committee report having passed the Bill• without amendments, carried. 1885

April 23, 1971 Ta,,e No. 374 NC - 3 On motion that the Committee rise report having passed Bills: 4, 21, 24, 26 and 34, without amendments. Mr. Speaker retumed to the Chair. MR. NOEL: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report having passed Bills No. 4, 21, 24, 26 and 34 without amendment• On motion report received and adopted. Bills ordered read a third time by leave. On aoti~n a Bill, "An Act To Aaend The Constabulary (Pensions) Act, 1970, '' read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper.

On motion A Bill 1 "An Act Further To Amend The Stamp Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion a Bill, "An Act To Protect Certain Persons Rendering Aid Following An Accident Or In An Emergency," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On 1110tion A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Criminal Injuries Compensation Act, 1968·," read a third time, ordered passed and title be u on the Order Paper. On motion A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The SumnuHy Jurisdiction Act," read a third time, ordered passed acd title be as on the Order Paper. MR. NO~: Mr.

Speaker, the Co11111ittee: ·of th£ Whole have considert.1 the matters to them referred and have directed me to report having passed Bill No. 17 with some amendments. On 1110tion report received and adopted. On motion amendments read a first and second time. On motion Bill read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. .1886

April 23 0 1971 Tape No. 374 NC - 4 • ·,-. · Second Reading of a Bill. "An Act to Establish the Newfoundland Law Reform Commission"(Bill No.22): Mr. Speaker. I move the second reading of this Bill. at the request of the Attorney General. It provides for the setting up of a Co111111ission establishing a board to enquire into and report upon the Minister of Justice's recomendations for reformations in statute law and common law and judicial decisions and to conduct such research .as may be necessary for the Commission to carry out its functions.

I understand that similar legislation does exist in other parts of Canada. It seems to be in order and I move the second reading. MR CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker. this is a Bill that I support •. in fact. it was one of the points in the letter I wrote to the Premier before the House met. One of the seventeen point•• it was nailed in the Premier's consciousness because the Premier, on opening day. actually admitted cwo of his objections were in the Speech from the Throne and I think he said that this was one of them. In any event we have to be grateful for small favours.

Law Reform Commissions have been established in such Provinces as Ontario and British Columbia. Mr. Speaker. to do the hum-drum work, not so 1887

April 23, 1971, Tape 375, Pagel -- apb MR. CROSBIE: - ---- Much to recommend sensational changes in the law, or p:reat advances in public policies, but to do the humdrum work of trying to bring the laws up to date, and to correct any inequities that the coumdssion comes across. The trouble with this Bill,however, isr~r. Speaker, that it was obviously drafted quite hastily and there is not much detail in it. For example, the membership of the commission shall consist of one or such greater number of members as the Lieutenant-Governor in Council may prescribe. That is pretty indefinite. MR.

SM.ALLWOOD (J.R.): In the event that the hon. member is defeated in St. John's West, and he should be looking for a job, we are holding it open in case we wish to offer him a job. MR. CROSBIE: I thought that perhaps the hon. the Premier would use his influence and get me something better than that. MR. SM...ALLWOD: Such as a seat in the House of Assembly? MR. CROSBIE: There is a Senate Seat open. MR.~LW.QP..: I did it once before. MR._C!OS~IE_;_ There is a Senate Seat open, perhaps the hon. the Premier will get that for me. MR. ROBERTS: The hon. the poor barefoot boy could p~t himself ••• MR.

CROSBIE: To tell you the truth Mr. Speaker, I do not think I am going .. to be open for a job after the election, I am going to be busy as part of the Government. I will be on the other side of the House. I do not know what kind of Government it will be, but it will not be the present one. MR-.-~_!.WOD..=. No, no one else knows either. MR. CROSBIE: It will not be the present one, you can be sure of that. MR. ~fA!..!.WOO.!)_; What kind of Gove~ent that would be. MR. EARLE: Anything would be an improvement. MR. CROSBIE: All I know.Mr.

Speaker, is that Martin Goldfarb is asking questions about me all over the island, the Premier must think there is some danger. Why would he have me on his list? He does not have the hon. the Minister of Education on his list. He is asking about the Minister of 1888

April 23, 1971. Tape 375, Pare 2 -- apb Health, the Minister o~ Community and Social Development, the Hinister of Economic Development and himself. The Premier is obviously worried about himself. MR.. SMALLWOOD: Just an ordinary human curiosity that is all. MR. CROSBIE: Just a human interest survey. To get back to the Bill,Mr. Speaker, this is pretty indefinite. One, or such greater number as the Lieutenant Governor in Council may prescribe. Now the provinces that have these commissions are also blessed with law schools in their universities. What has happened,Mr.

Speaker, is that in those provinces. they have as members of the commission some members of the staff of a law schooL Obviously this is very helpful,if you have a Royal Commission~to have the law professors and so on as members of it, because, they have the time and the inclination to do the kind of research that is needed if there is going to be any worth-while law reform. We are not in that position in this .· Province.

We do not have a law school, we do not have any law professors, and ·r would like to hear somebody on the other side inform the House as to what kind of person they are envisaging putting on this Law Reform Commission. It is absolutely useless to have a Law Refonn Commission that will not function properly, that will not be active, tqat will not suggest reforms in the law. What I am afraid of.Mr. Speaker, is that this is just a gesture. This is a •refonn gesture but without any serious thought behind it. Perhaps the .hon. the Minister of Justice is going to be the first member, he is retiring this next election.

His record for reform is well known in the Province, but we are not to know that. We do not even know how many people the Government are going to put on it. I think it is very unsatisfactory. All the power in this Bil~as in 111Uch other le~islation 1is going to be left in the hands of the Cabinet. Then it says the Lieutenant-Governor in Council can authorize a payment of such remuneration and expenses as they prescribe. Once again. Mr. Speaker. we are not even to know how much - you see, this can be just another dodge, to appoint somebody for patronage reasons. Somebody that the 1889

April 23, 1971, Tape 375, Page 3 -- apb Government wants to move upstairs, move out of the way as they are no longer needed, but they want a good paying job to appoint them to. This kind of legislation leaves it right open. The legislation does not spell out what the qualifications should be of member•for the Law Reform Commission. They do not have to have any qualifications. If the Government wants to get three or four people out of the vay and give them ten or fifteen thousand a year salary each, if this Bill is passed there is not a thing to stop the Government doing that.

We know the electio~ is coming, we know the Government has many undesirables that it wishes to get out of the way to clear the decks for the election. This can be just another way of doing it. It is most unsati~factory. The Lieuteaant Governor in Council can decide to pay these pe~ple ten thousand a year, fifteen,,twenty-five thousand, the Bill does not spell it out. Then it says that the Lieutenant Governor in Council may allow the Coll!lllission to establish various posts. The Government might be able to stash away twenty­ five or thirty mediocrities.

Either appoint them to the Commission or put them on the Commissioner's staff. It is the function of the Commission to enquire into and consider any matter that they can reform in the law, judicial and quasi-jusicial procedures, direct legal r~search. So Mr. Speaker, this not even the bare bones of a frame--work of a Law Reform Commission.

It appears to me to be a gesture only. and I would like to have some minister on the other side explain whether there are any serious plans for this comission, the kind of people they have in mind to appoint to it, what are the areas of the law they are going to ask them to look at first. There baa been the Gushue Family Law Study,which has done a good job in respect to Family Law, but there are all kinds of other areas. The point is,Mr. Speaker, I am tempted to vote a~ainst the Bill the way it is \JOrded now. Whether I will vote for it or against it depends on whether we are going to get some more details •.

Is it planned to have one member on this Commission or more than one? What qualifications will he need to be a member of the Commission? These are very important. 18~0 . , . .

April 23, 1971, Tape 375, Page 4 -- apb MR. $?-!.ALLWOOD: A Liberal. MR. CROSBIE: That is a frank admission. ---------- MR..:~O~!_I_E..:.. Your would have to be a loyal Liberal. That is one qualification apparently. Loyal Liberals are all right to be on this Commission if they have some qualifications,Mr. Speaker. If they have no qualifications then they should not be on it. Also, when is it going to start its work? Thia is worse than tjuf Pqblic Service Collective 'Bargaining Act there is so much left open.

It was drafted in haste, the Government has accepted my suggestion in -that letter to the Premier, I am sorry that they have not agreed to carry out some other recommendations, a change in the electoral law. When ia the Premier going to reorganize the districts more fairly? When are some of these other changes going to be brought about? One of the first things this C61lllllission should look at before the election, and they should report back to the House before we finish,are the present - the districts in Newfoundland. The inequality in the number of voters in each district.

The number of districts which have 2,000 voters each, St. John's North with about 16 thousand, St. John's West with some 14 thousand, St. John's East Extern fifteen or sixteen thousand, St. Barbe North perhaps two thousand, Labrador South perhaps fifteen hundred - seventeen hundred. These are terrific inequalities ¥.r. Speaker that someone should look at, the ''Joey-mandering' ' of our districts, to get a little more equality. We know that they cannot be exactly even, we know that geography plays a part, but surely we should have a little fairer distribution than that. St.

John's East has I think five thousand odd voters, perhap~ six thousand as compared to St. John's West with twelve thousand, and St. John's North with sixteen and the East Extern with fifteen, and St. John's South with eight or nine thousand. Why the ~iscrepancy even in the City of St. Johns? All of these inequities should be examined. Why does not the hon. the Premier or this Law Reform Commission bring in some new boundaries for our electoral districts? 1891

April _23, 1971, Tape 375, Page 5 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: ----------- The Commission is not appointe yet. ~.:_f_R9?~!E : Well, why does the Government not do it? We do not need a Co111111ission to do it. MR. ROBERTS: That is true, we need the House of Assembly to do it. When is the Government going to change the election laws so we have the present unfairness •••• MR._ RO~~RT§i After the election. MR. CROSBIE: ----- - --- After the election is right. The Government is going to go out anyway, whether they do that or not. MR. SMALLWOOD: We are going right out to the people and then _.come back with a huge majority. MR.

CROSBIE: The hon. the Premier ••• MR.._RO~~!lTSi_ Why get up tight, I mean it is 6nly a matter of months then according to that. ~--C!tQ§~.!_E2_ I wish the Government would call the election they are se quietly confident. If the Government is confident they are ~oing to win the election• why are they having the poll done 1 Why is poor old Martin Goldfarb about. all ovPr the Island asking these questions? MR. SPEAKER: ------ ·- I doubt very much if this is in any way._ related to the principle of the Bill that a Law Reform Commission be established. MR. SMALLWOD: is needed. MR.

CROSBIE: It is the reform of the Tory Party Mr. Speaker, that is what I agree with Your Honour's admonition. It is not related to law reform,Mr. Speaker. We would have precious little law reform if the present bunch are returned. and this Act that has no guts in it at all, no details, it is the final asthmatic spasm of a Government that is not seriously concerned with reform. M!t -=-.!'~Sl~L _:_ Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a few words. This Bill ,as the member for St. John's West has said, is wide open.

Really the effectiveness of the Bill depends upon how effective the Government wishes to make it, and how serious Government is with respect to it. In order to determine this, I would like the hon. minister to indicate what plans really 1892

April 23, 1971, Tape 375, Page 6 -- apb he has for this Law Reform Commission. What position it is going to have vis a vis the Department of Justice? We see co111111issions appointed from