Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 80 (29th Legislature, 5th Session)

29-5-80

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

• THE IEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Monday, April 30th, 1973 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 2193 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honour able members to my gallery where we have the Queen of the Aurora Snow Festival from Churchill, Manitoba and her attendants. On behalf of all the honourable members I welcome you here today I overlooked mentioning her name. Her name is Miss Frances Wokes. We also have 35 students of Grade 5 Standing of the Lansdowne School. These students are under the direction of Mrs. Angell.

This school is located in the Constituency of the Honourable Member for Inketer, the Minister of Mines and Resources. We also have 60 students of Grade 6 standing of the Deer Lodge School. These students are under the direction of Mr Huber. This school is located in the Constituency of the Honourable Member for St James, the Attorney-General. On behalf of all the honourable members I welcome you here today. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable MiniFter of Tourism and Recreation.

TABLING OF REPORTS HON. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (Minister of Tourism, Recreation & Cultural Affairs) (St Boniface): Mr Speaker, I'd like to table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Centennial Corporation including the Provincial Auditor's Report. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Fint Minister. HON EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier and Minister of Finance)(Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I have for the table Volume 3 of Guidelines for the Seventies entitled Regional Per spectives, MR. SPEAKER: Any other Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Oral Questions. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if he can inform the House as to what specific action the government is taking to insure the leg'itimate flow, the legitimate trade in eggs with the Province of B. C. ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON.

SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture and Minister of Co-Op Dev.) (Lac du Bonnet): Mr Speaker, I indicated last week that if measures were to be taken that they would be taken And I would indicate today, Sir, that my Deputy Minister has had discussions in Ottawa with the National Marketing Council who have some jurisdiction in this particular dis pute, so that until we determine what action they are going to take we are not going to take any of our own. MR. ENNS: Mr: Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable the Attorney-Genera!.

In view of his experience in dealing with these matters before the Supreme Court, has he asked hiE' department, his legal people, to consider the legality of the action taken by the "B. C. Marketing Board against the legitimate movement of products from Manitoba to that province.? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. A. H. MACKLING, G.

C. \Attorney-General and Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services)(St James): Mr Speaker, as I indicated in the Bouse last week, the department reepondf' in areas of marketing to the Department of Agriculture and the Minister of Agriculture and close liaison is maintained between my staff and the staff of that department and as and when we're called upon to act we will. . MR. ENNS:_ I direct a question to the First Minister.

Will the First Minister -· un- doubtedly in discussing the whole question of national farm marketing at the soon to be held conference in July is the First Minister prepared to reconsider the position that Manitoba may

2194 April 30, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR. ENNS cont'd ) .. ... wish to take to that kind of a national marketing scheme if in fact the actions of the B. C. government are upheld ? MR. SPEAKER: The question is hypothetical in the latter part. The Honourable Member from Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr.

Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the Attorney-General and ask him if he could tell the House what dif ference he sees in the present situation with respect to marketing of eggs in British Columbia as opposed to that situation which existed when he brought the matter befo re the Supreme Court in regard to the importation of eggs in the Province of Quebec? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney- General. MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm not in a position to make an evaluation for the honourable member inasm uch as I haven't been apprised of all of the facts at this stage yet.

I understand that the Department of Agriculture has or is in the process of determining what the facts are and on the basis of that and what other representations may be made nationally then I assume that there will be further follow-up, and we may be receiving instructions. But that is a matter for the my colleague to determine on the base of the facts that he receives. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Em erson. MR. GABRIEL GIRARD (Eme rson): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the First Minister, I'd like to ask him if he could advise the House as to approximately when the schools boards of Manitoba will be aware of the new pension legislat ion regarding teachers ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the legislation I believe is draf ted and will be intro duced in short order now and that would be the time at which the notice in eff ect would go to all school boards. MR. GIRARD: Yes, I'd like a supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the Honour able the First Minister could advise the House if there is any reason why we could not have the information in form of an announcement befo re the bill is introduced? MR. SCHREYER : Well, Mr. Speaker, that' s a good question. I'm not sure that there is any obvious answer. On the one hand, when the Est imates of the Department of Education are dealt with it presumably could be explained at that time.

If on the other hand we were to make an annolincement prior to the introduction of the legislation: my honourable friends opposite might be critical as they have on occasion in the past in analagous circums tances. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member f or Em erson. MR. GIRARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, in the same regard, I would like to ask the First Minister if he thinks that the necessity of having the information by school boards is not much more worthy than the fear of a little criticism? MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, if my honourable friend is inviting us to perhaps have less traditional solicitude for feelings of honourable memb er opposite perhaps we should accept his advice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture. Can the Minister inform the House whether or not the John Deere Plow Company notified the Farm Machinery Board when it made the announcement on its price increase as a result of the farm equipment legislation effective March 31st? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR.

USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I am aware that the John Deere Company has not fully complied with the legislation that is laid down in this province. MR. EINARSON: Second question, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister: Can the Minister indicate to the House how many farm machine companies have made, or give notification to the Farm Machinery Board that they were increasing their prices for the same reason? MR. USKIW: That is a matter that I've not been fully info rmed on. I understand the Farm Machinery Board is discussing the question with a number of people. MR. EINARSON: Third question, Mr.

Speaker: I'm wondering if the discussions taking place - are any suggestions being made by the machine companies to farmers that they can opt out to this legislation on certain aspects of it?

I April 30, 1973 2195 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. USKIW: The legislation does provide for opting out provisions as far as the farmers are concerned with respect to certain aspects of warranty provisions -- yes. Wnether or not the companies are making that aware to the general P.Ublic is something that I'm not aware of. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. -- The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder could the Minister explain what areas the farmer can opt out on this legislation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR.

USKIW: From recollection -- I'm sure the honourable member could look up the legislation himself- but from recollection, Mr. Speaker, I believe it's in the area of trans portation and labour services which are related to the warranty section. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. LEONARD A. BARKMAN (LaVerendrye): Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister and on the same type of question. In view of the fact that other companies apparently are increas ing their prices does the government have any intention of taking any action to relieve this added burden off the farmers of Manitoba? MR.

USKIW: Well I would hope, Mr. Speaker, that actions that are taken will sort out the problem. I don't know whether they would imply legal action or legislative action at this point in time; we are trying to determine our legal position. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDERSON (Pembina): My question is for the Minister of Agriculture. Does he not feel that this is unfair competition for the machine company dealers along the border when people in Saskatchewan can buy them cheaper? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: My answer to that one is, Mr.

Speaker, that the various farm machine companies who have made representation to the Province of Saskatchewan had indicated to that province that it would be desirable if their legislation would provide something similar to what has already been done in this province . . . �-( Interjection)-- MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. USKIW: . . . and that they are now attempting to persuade the Province of Sask atchewan and Alberta from amending their legislation; and it appears that Manitoba is being used as a scapegoat in the meantime. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, just for further clarification of the Minister's answer. Is it his suggestion that the -- or can he answer me, is it the farm machinery companies intentions to use or to have the government offer them opportunities of advancing their prices of farm machinery, not only in Manitoba but across the prairies? Is the government now teaming up with the machine companies so that the farmers can have higher prices for their farm machineries? --(Int erjection)-- MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, the most obvious answer to my honourable friend is that obviously the companies don't have a great deal of faith in their own manufacturer of their own equipment if they feel that to provide a warranty provision for three years requires that kind of adjustment in value. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. Does he intend to repeal any portions of the Farmers Limit Act during this session? MR. USKIW: I would hope, Mr. Speaker, that all acts of the Legislature are enforced at all times. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS.

INEZ TRUEMAN {Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I have a question to ask of the Minister of Health and Social Development. Since the Federal Government stated at the Welfare Ministers' Conference that there would be no penalty if nursing homes and day-care were made universally available, will the Minister now be taking advantage of the opportunity to provide good quality day care for all the children of working mothers who wish it? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Health and Social Development)(Springfield): Well, Mr.

Speaker, the Conference of Welfare Ministers confirmed the policy of the Federal

2196 April 30, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) . . . . . Governmen t not to penalize provinces that wanted to undertake universal programs, that they would not suffer financially for the amou nt that was payable under CFE, and that would include not only all levels of care pertaining to those that are social allowance recipients, but day care facilities and other programs that this government has announced and will be detailed during the Est imates of the Department of Health and Social Development. MRS. TRUEMAN: I have a further question for the same Minister.

When the decision was taken to raise the family allowance to $20 per child was any consultation held with the Family Planning Associations of Canada and was there any thought given to the implications that this would have as far as the population trends are concerned ? MR. TOUPIN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I can't answer for the Federal Government. I happen to know that my federal colleague Marc Lalonde had a meeting with the Welfare Plan ning Council and many subjects were discussed with them. I don't know if he had a meeting with the Family Planning Council.

We as a province were consulted by means of the Welfare Conference and prior to the confere nce. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON (Gladstone) : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct my question to the Minister of .Agriculture.. And in connection with an

article in the Manitoba Co-O p dated April 26th, I think the answers to the question I asked the Minister the other day are here and apparently it's ... MR. SPEAKER: Question please? MR. FERGUSON: ... Will the Minister answer the question I asked him on Friday in regard to the cost of pumping and distribution of the pum ps, etc. fy'IR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of .Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, if the honourable member has. the answer then obviously I don't have to answer him now. MR. FERGUSON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to have it from the Minister's lips be cause possibly he'll say he was mi squoted in this article. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The Honourable Minister of .Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, the Department puts out a number of brochures and a number of information pieces and I'm not familiar with the one which he is referring to. I would suggest if he has one prepared by the department or if it.'s an advertisement that it must be accurate. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. ARTHUR MOUG (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the .Attorney-General.

Is there any connection between the Legions opposition to the biff y in Memorial Park and the fact that they're being so closely policed by liquor inspectors in their clubrooms ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. A MEMBER: The Legion hasn't objected. MR. M.ACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I consider that to be kind of a muck-raking question, but the answer is no. MR. MOUG: Has there been additional inspectors hired f or policing Legions in the last three week or month ? MR. M.ACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, there has been public awareness I believe of the stepped-up enfo rcement of the provisions of the Manitoba Liquor Control .Act. The number of inspectors have been doubled, not for inspection of veteran's clubs or other clubs alone but of all licensed establishments. This will give a greater flexi bility to inspections and more ef fective inspection of licensed premi ses generally. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member f or Rupertsland. MR. JEAN ALLARD (Rupertsland): Could the Minister, the Attorney-General tell us what the reasons behind this were ?

Was there some sharp increase in criminality in the area or could he explain the doubling of the number of inspectors ? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, there has been continuous complaints from time to time -- various organizations suggesting that ther:e are continuing breaches of the law, the Liquor Control Act; of licensed premi ses ser'ving people when they are already intoxicated, serving mino rs, so on.

April 30, 1973 2197 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR. MACKLING cont'

d) A study was made by the Liquor Control Commission during the past summer employing university students as a result of which very scientific observations were made of breaches of the Liquor Control Act in licensed premises throughout Winnipeg primarily, although com plaints have been received from time to time in various areas of the province.

As a result of this, and our concern, the concern of the Commission and of this Government for strict adherence to the laws and a more mature approach to the consumption of alcoholic beverage, decision was taken to increase the size of the inspectorial staff, and that has been carried out. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. CY GONICK (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Resources. I ask the Minister if the Flyer Coach Industry is still negotiating the sale of its Morris plant? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q.

C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Manage ment)(Inkster): Mr. Speaker, the situation is approximately the same as it was last week. The Board of Directors of the Manitoba Development Corporation is in the process of con sidering that entire procedure and will I am told be making a recommendation to the govern ment. MR. GONICK: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister confirm that the name of the co mpany involved is Sheller Globe of the United States? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I won't confirm that. MR. GONICK: Mr.

Speaker, I ask the same Minister if the government will be taking responsibility for this sale or will it be the MDC? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I thought I made it quite clear in my previous answers that the board will be making recommendation to the government. MR. GONICK: Mr. Speaker, a question to the First Minister. Is it the policy of the government to sell Crown assets to U.S. corporations? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, the problem if there is one remains academic up to this point in time, but I believe that rather than attempt to give an answer that would be of general application that the answer really would lie in the specifics of each particular case, and thus far of course we have not been faced with that circumstance. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY. E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Attorney-Genera�.

Will the increased number of inspectors visiting the various hotels and l drinking establishments in the province, will they also be carrying out the same increased number of inspections of government liquor stores? MR. SPEAKER: The Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: I fail to understand the honourable member's question; Mr. Speaker, I don't know what kind of inspection of liquor stores the honourable member's talking about. The liquor stores that are operated by the Crown agency operate on prescribed hours and they are governed strictly by the law- no sale to intoxicated persons, no sale to minors.

In the event that there are any complaints of that kind then it's a matter of disciplinary measures being taken against staff. Now that always has to be guarded against but I know of no com plaints from citizens that there have been sales made by staff of liquor stores to intoxicated persons or minors. And if there are such complaints I would think they'd be brought to my attention. If the honourable member has any particular specific matter I think he owes it to me to bring it to my attention. MR.

GRAHAM: Will the increased number of inspectors be acting only on complaints or will they be operating as a vigilante corps? MR. MACKLING: Order, please. Mr. Speaker, I would like the honourable member to know that members of police departments are.not vigilantes, and inspectors are not vigil antes, they are entrusted with the administration of laws, and . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. Order, please.

I would like to get some co-operation from fhe members who have a tendency to blurt out and to interrupt pro ceedings; that they would control themselves and if they cb have a valid contribution to make

2198 April 30, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR. SPEAKER cont'd) . . . I'm sure the floor will be yielded. The Honourable Attorney- General. MR. 'MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, just to clearly indicate to the honourable mem ber, that police forces have responsibilities to investigate from time to time unusual behaviour, any breaches of the law. The inspectorial staff of the Liquor Control Commi ssion have an onus to inspect from time to time licensed premi ses at no fixed or regular hours to ensure com pliance with the laws. This is not a vigilante system and I repudiate that kind of suggestion. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin) : Mr. Speaker, I have a question f or the Honour able the Minister of Northern Affairs. I wonder if the Minister can advise whether he or the government has received notice from Hudson Bay Company that as a service to its customers it will absorb some $100, OOO in extra transportations costs that have come as a result of the winter road program ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Aff airs. HON. RON McBRYDE (Minister of Northern Affai rs)(The Pas) : Mr.

Speaker, it's my understanding that the Hudson Bay Com pany, Manitoba Division has made that announcement I think over two weeks ago in the public press. MR. McKENZIE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Have any other com panies notified the Minister of government of similar subsidies ? MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I doubt if the mem ber is correct using the term "sup sidies" . I don't think there is other companies that operate to that extent in Northern Manitoba. MR. McKEN ZIE: A supplementary question.

Is the government prepared to offer some type of service similar to Hudson Bay to those comm unities in the north ? MR . McBRYDE: Mr. Spea.lcer, the entire winter road program is basically a subsidy for northern transportation and to lower costs in Northern Manitoba, as is the airstrip pro gram. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BARKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this question to the First Minister.

Will the government be considering an offer of assist ance, financial or otherwise, to the Government of New Brunswick to help alleviate some of the dangers and hardships that they've gone through in the recent floods around Fredericton ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHRE YER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, of course we would be guided by intelligence reports or reports simply of the nature and extent of damag e incurred; and then too we would want to see what sister provinces, some of them much larger than Manitoba, would be pre pared to do if anything in the circumstance that there was considerable damag e. I refer to the sister provinces of Ontario and Quebec. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture.

Is it the intention of the government or has the government given consideration to the matter of subsidizing farmers in the purchase of weed killer sprays such as tref lan ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I suppose one could put it that way that we have considered matters of that kind. However, we have considered that there are limits to which govern ments can provide subsidization or programs to which they can apply subsidization, and for this current year we are involved in subsidization of chemicals for the control of grasshoppers and army worms. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. MOUG: Mr. Speaker, I have a further question for the Attorney-G eneral. Does the Inspection Department encourage their people to try to purchase liquor before or after opening and closing hours.? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, as with all systems I would imagine that there are techniques used to test whether or not people are abiding by the laws. Now I don't know whether that is one course of action or not but I wouldn't be at all surprised.

April 30, 1973 2199 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West) ; Mr. Speaker, to the Honourable the Attorney General with reference to his answers to previous question's on the additional inspectors. Is it the usual practice of his inspectors to identify themselves to the proprietors of the outlets that they are inspecting ? MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Speaker, it would determine the timing of identification.

If inspectors go into a licensed premi se and announce that they'r e there to watch and see whether or not anyone is going to get served while they're intoxicated I think it would defeat the purpose of having casual inspections from time to time. I think the inspectors go there and it would remain to be determined when they would disclose that they are acting in an inspection capacity; that would be important. If they'r e merely observing then I don't think that they would identify their prese nce necessaril y. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR.

JORGENSON: I wonder if the Attorney General could advise the House if the same determination to enforce the law as is in the case of the Liquor Control Commission will be applied to those who rustle cattle?

MR. l\/IACKLING: The honourable member I think was in this House when I indicated concerns in this area and I think it would be improper for me to indicate the nature of conversations I've had from time to time, but if the honourable memb er persists I can dis close that just last week I and my staff met with represe ntation from the police· and went into the matter very thoroughly, and I'm not going to discuss what was said. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GIRARD: I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Agriculture with regards to the insecticide pro visions by the government.

In his press release of last week, or in the press statement of last week, only one insecticide was mentioned as being stocked by the government. Will there be more than one kind available to the farmers of Manitoba through your off ice ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, for the control of gras shoppers I believe it is only the one. Now I'm not sure whether there have been recent recommendations that may change that, but for the moment it's only the one. While I'm on my feet, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to respond to the Member for Rhine land who wanted to know how many farm workers there were in the province. And the total I have here is about 10, OOO which does include farm family labour. Some 2, 700 of these are full-time emp loyees. MR. GIRARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask another question of the Minister of Agriculture with regard more specifi cally to the gras shopper infestatio n which is predicted to be somewhat serious poss ibly.

I wonder if he would find it advisable to make an attempt at advertising a scheduled time for gras shopper poisoning so that we have as much intensive poisoning in a short time as possible. MR. USKIW: Well I believe, Mr. Speaker, that my honourable friend there is as knowledgeable as I am on the techniques, which is almost nil, but my advisers tell me, Mr. Speaker, that one would have to be on the spot in dif ferent spots at diff erent times of the day and the week and the month to be able to time it precis ely. So one recommendation would not apply to all of the regions, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a· question to the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Services. Is his department conducting meetings throughout the province or have they scheduled meetings to inform the people in this province on the possible changes coming about in restructuring his department services ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, if the honourable mem ber is talking about meetings based on the region or the district pertaining to services offered now by the Department of Health and Social Development and/or the Health Services Commi ssion or new services, meetings are being held on a regional basis to inf orm dif ferent boards and commi ssions and individuals pertaining to prese nt and future services.

2200 April 30, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. FROESE: A supplementary. Are these meetings held on the basis that if they're called for from the local area only or are these scheduled meetings by the departme nt ? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, there are some of both. There is scheduled meetings by the department and there are meetings where I myself or officials of my department go as invited guests to inform the public. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources.

Some time ago the Minister indicated that a: Task Force would be set up to study the recommendations of the Kierans Report on mining. I ask the Minister a question: Has the Task Force been set up as yet? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR .. ENNS: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if the Honourable Minister would be good enough to indicate to the House the make- up of that Task Force, the personnel involved? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, it involves people at the Deputy Minister status in three departme nts. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I would hope the Minister would be a little more helpful. We can go through the departments I suppose but would he not consider naming the persons serving on the Task Force? It is of some interest to . . . MR. GREEN: Well, ·Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that it is not a body which is dealing in any way with the public and strictly an internal group, it is a civil service exercise and I don't think it's good practice to deal with the entire civil service adminis tration or names of personnel in any particular area.

There's nothing sinister about it - the Minister of Labour gives me a word - but it's just a matter that the report -- whatever is done will subsequently have to be accepted by the government as policy and the Task Force has been set up for the purpose of reviewing and giving us information with regard to implications of the Kierans Report. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary question. I can't say whethere there's anything sinister about it or not but the direct question is, the government will then not reveal and not tell us who the memb ers of the Task Force is ? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

That is not a question, that is a statement. The . Honourable Member for Rhineland. . MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable the Minister of Education. Ar� tentative mill rates for school divisions outside of the Greater Winnipeg area available from his department ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON . BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education)(Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I have no knowledge at the moment whether all budgets have been finalized. If they have been finalized then they are available, and if not then they're not available at the moment. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day.

The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Tourism that Mr. Speaker ... MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris wish to place another question. MR. JORGENSON: Yes, I just have one question. Sometime ago I placed a question on the Order Paper to be answered by the Minister and I wonder if the Minister of Mines and Resources could advise me when I could expect an answer to that question, dealing with the Cl ean Environment Commi ssion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I hope within this week.

I have the other information that my honourable friend requested, I'll give it to him personally. If he then wants me to read it out to the House on a subsequent day, I'll do so too. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to raise a point of order and that is: The Minister has offered the information privately. When ques tions are on the Order Paper are they not to be answered publicly?

April 30, 1973 2201 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR GREEN: The one that is on the Order Paper will be answered on the Order Paper. I was refe rring to another . . . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. THOMAS BARROW (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this question to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. If such a Task Force to, look into the Kierans Report is formed, I would offer my services and the Member from Crescentwood free of charge. MR. SPEAKER: Order, pleas e. That's not a question again. The Honourable Member for Cres.centwood. MR. GONICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Minister of Health and Social Development . Is the government contemplating an increase in the fees offered to the doctors of Manitoba ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, there are certain things that have happened since I've been out in Ottawa. I would have to take his question Ullder -- well as notice, and it is definitely a question of policy. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Tour ism that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION prese nted. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Fort Rouge. MRS. INEZ TRUEMAN: I rise on a grievance. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. TRUEMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I rise on a grievance because of an abuse of a statute by the Minister of Health and Social Development who has required assistance to be given to a man whom his advisors declared to be categorically ineligible for assi stance under the provisions of The Social Allowance Act. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MRS. TRUEMAN: Thus a request for aid for the purpose of obtaining a farrier's training, in not one but three differ ent schools in the United States at an anticipated cost of $8, 010 was approved and recommended by the Minister against the advice of his advisors.

Pres sure was applied by the Minister to accom modate this man ' s request and indications are that the money was granted through the Student Aid Program, which of course is currently being admini stered by the Minister of Colleges and University Affai rs . Mr. Speaker, for your informa tion, a farrier is a person who shoes horse s. The sub missi on to the Minister by Mr.

S. , the applicant, who I understand has easy access to the Minister's offi ce, was lengthy and it described his am bitions, the training courses, the relative merits of Canadian and Am erican schools, the employment possibilities as well as the projected costs which included special meals-, car expenses, motels and travel costs, $800. 00 for equipme nt, for an anvil and other blacksmithing tools, $25. 00 a week fo r mis cellaneous expenses and a $533. 00 cheque was issued for books and a down payment on tuition. Farriers' courses are available in Canada, Mr.

Speaker, a good school being located in Saskatoon, and if taken in Canada Manpower would have paid for the course at no cost to the province. However, Mr. S. wished to take three courses in the United States, any one of which would have equipped him to earn a living. The schools were· in Arizona, Oklahoma and Colorado. It's dif ficult to see how any security could be held against the money advanced since the man, and I quote "had" business reverses and owed over $30, OOO. 00. He was hope ful of collecting some insurance from an automobile accident in which he was injured two years ago.

He was holding down two jobs at the time of his application but faced garnishment of his wages. Question must be raised as to how the Minister expected to pay social allowances to a person in the United States. The Social Allowance Act states that the money is payable to resi dents of Manitoba. We must also ask whether there is an eighth regional of fice in the Minister's of fices where favo urites can go bypassing the usual procedures.

2202 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. April 30, 1973 MRS. TRUEMAN: A sense of it being highly irregular and an improper use of public funds has led to the exposure to me of this whole extraordinary situation. The civil servants refused to grant this assi stance except over the Minister's signature. And, Mr. Speaker, the Minister gave them that signature. I would like to read into the public record the memos which came into my hands. The first is from the Executive Director of Operations to the Deputy Minister.

He says, "Our Minister has requested that we give consideration to providing farrier training to a Mr. S. if at all possible to provide this gentleman with the opportunity of becoming self-s ufficie nt in the labour market. Our Income Security Services have made inquiries as to centres for this ty� of training and have provided me with the attached report for the Minister's consideration. If after reading the attached report the Minister feels that we should still proceed with this plan we will take the necess ary steps to make it poss ible for Mr. S. to qualify for this training under Student Aid.

It appears that work of this nature is very demanding physically, a fact whiP-h has led our Income Security people to question whether or not we are doing the right thing in channeling Mr. S. to this type of work considering his physical disabilities. " The second document is from the Executive Director, Income Security Services, to the Assistant Deputy Minister of the Commun ity Operations Division. "SevenJ inquiries have been made and I have been informed that there is one excellent Canadian school located in Saskatoon af filia ted with the School of Agriculture. Another good school is located in South Dakota.

Both schools have excellent reputations and facilities for farrier training. It should be noted that the farrier business is dirty, dangerous and extremely demanding physically. In view of Mr. S. 's back injuries and corrective spinal surgery his desire for farrier training does not appear to be realistic. I believe that the Minister should be informed of these con siderations. If af ter considering these facts the Minister should decide that farrier training is in the best interests of Mr. S. , plans can be made. We would require written confirmation of the Minister's decision for our records.

If the farrier training is to be pursued Manpower should be approached by the regional staff on behalf of Mr. S. and a realistic budget should be established. Would you please insure that the Minister is briefed and made aware of the circumstances surrounding this ma n's plans. " The third document is from the Executive Director of Income Security Services to the Minister of Health and Social Development. "Approximately two months ago Mr. S's original request for farrier training was submitte d. " This is dated October lOth, 1972.

"This plan was rejected on behalf of the Minister for several reasons which are outlined below. Mr. S's medical history, spinal fusion and a history of blackouts was seen as a serious consideration in conjunction with the demands of a farrier occupation which is very ·dangerous and extremely demanding physically. The existence of Canadian schools which offer these courses and have · good reputations and faci lities. If a Canadian school was chosen funding might be obtained from other sources such as Canadian Manpower. You contacted Mr.

McLean approximately two weeks ago instructing him to take the necess ary steps to obtain farrier training for Mr. S. On September.29t h, I interviewed Mr. S. Additional information obtained at that interview is outlined below. He states that his back problems and blackouts are now cleared.

(2) He does not want to pursue farrier training in Canada as he feels it is inferior to the training he can receive in the U. S. A. If he cannot go to the three schools of his choice in the U.S. A. he will not undertake this training. Mr. S. currently has judgments against him self in the amoun t of approximately six to seven: thousand dollars in addition to some small personal debts. Upon completion of farrier training approximately one year in total from January lst, 1973, Mr. S. will require additional funding to establish hims elf in business.

It was explained to him that this fund ing would have to come from sources outside the Department of Health and Social Development. Mr. S. stated that the cost figures quoted for his training are below costs in some areas and are minimum figures required to complete farrier training. Mr. S. is currently emp loyed at two jobs but faces the prospect of garnishee. The total extimated cost for maintenance and farrier training at the farrier schools located in Phoenix, Arizona, Sperry, Oklahoma, and Littleton, Colorado, will be $8, 010. 00. Mr.

S. is categori cally ineligible for any programs of this department except student aid. As the proposed farrie r training at a total cost of $8, 010 per annum is far in excess of normal costs approved

April 30, 1973 2203 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MRS. TRUEMAN cont'd) ..... for this type of training, in addition to the fact that the training will be taken in the U.S. A. , approval for enrollment and this expenditure must be obtained from the Minister. We recommend that Mr. S. not be enrolled as a special case. " -- (Interjection)-- When I'm finished perhaps. "We recommend that Mr.

S. not be enrolled as a special case in view of past health problems and the physical deman ds of this occupation, the excessive cost and the availability of comparable training in Canadian schools and his personal financial obligations (judgment s, garnishees and loans). If you wish to approve this plan would you please sign below signifying approval to enroll as a special case for a total expenditure of $8, 010. 00. " Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health and Social Development gave them the signature that authorized this expenditure. Mr.

Speaker, I call on the Minister of Health and Social Development and the Minister of Colleges and Universities who are responsible for social assis tance and student aid, to disclose the justification for the granting of this large amount of money for this one client, under dubious circumstances, at a time when instructions are out in the regional offi ces to hold the line on welfare expenditures. And, Mr.

Speaker, I've had cases cited to me where a family that has a child with a kidney problem can't get a few more cents to buy more soap to wash bedding; an elderly gentleman who needs more milk for an ulcer diet, having a great deal of dif fic ulty getting it, and I think that the answer has much to e:iqilain and answer for in this case. We must wonder what power of persuasion this applicant had. We have known, Mr. Speaker, that the opportunity for favourit ism existed within the Student Aid Program and now our worst suspicions have been confirmed. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to ask the honourable member a question. Is the honourable mem ber aware that the individual in question, Mr. S. as she calls him, has applied for assistance under Manpower, under my department, both have been considered and neither have supplied that individual with funds to take his course that he has already taken and is back in the province working? I MR. SPEAKER: The honourable mem ber. I I I MRS. TRUEMAN: Mr: Speaker, I dm11t think that that -- I'm glad to hear that this has happened.

I know that the gentleman has. - a mutual acquaintance has spoken to him and knows that he has taken at least part of his course. I don't think that changes the fact, Mr; Speaker, that the Minister was prepared to authorize this expenditure from the Social Assist ance and Student Aid Funds. And while I'm on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I wish to table this document MR. SPEAKER: Is the House ready to proceed with the mot ion ? The Honourable Member for Logan. SUPPLY - TOURISM, RECREATION AND CULTURAL AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 107 -- the Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, The Honourable Member for Roblin, there was one question that I didn't answer on last Friday. He wanted to know why the reports, certain reports that come under our department had not been tabled, and I checked into this, Mr. Chairman. First of all, the Annual Report of the Department, this is something that is not required by law to table, but I agree with the honourable member if we're going to have it we should have it before the Estimates. I think they'll be here this afternoon, they'll be distributed this afternoon.

The Art Council Report was tabled on March 7th, 1973 That was of course to the end of 72. The 73 is not ready yet, It's being compiled. As soon as it comes out it will be tabled. The same thing for the Centennial Centre Corporation, that was also tabled on the same date of March 7th, 1973. The Manitoba Centennial Corporation, that was tabled today and this will be the last annual report for the Corporation because it has been dissolved since then. The Horse Racing Commi ssion, that was tabled on March 7th, 1973. The Centre Culturel Franco Manitoban that was incorporated last year. There is no report as yet.

The building is still under construction so there is 'nothing to report.

2204 April 30, 1973 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. DESJARDINS cont'

d) The Legislative Library. There is no deadline onthe tabling of this report. It's in the process of being printed and as soon as we have it we will report it. MR. McKENZIE: Just one problem, Sir. I haven't got those copies. MR. DESJARDINS: No, no. Well, excuse me. I think that usually when there's a report that is tabled there is a number of copies and at least his Leader would have it.

I know that the past procedure it's not that difficult, if the member wants one badly enough - I don't know which one he's talking about - I can see that he gets it, but normally they get it from their Leader who has a few copies. And then the Lottery Commission. Well that has not been received as yet and I think that I explained this is the House why this was done. I want to mention that because I do agree, Mr. Chairman, that during the Estimate time all the information should be in front of the members as much as possible and we should deal with this.

I thought that we would be into this a little earlier this afternoon but it seems to me that the Conservative Party, as it is their right, intend to have a grievance nearly every day. I don't know, maybe that will slow procedure up, but this is their right. Nevertheless,. I would hope that if there is anything, any queries, that the honourable members do not wait until after my Estimates are finished. If there is anything that they would like to question, like for instance I've changed offices. If anybody wants to know about that or the cost of that, that's fine, bring it out in the open right now.

If you want to know about the Hewak Commission, I think that the honourable members received an answer to their questions. I would hope that all these things come out now where we can deal with them in the Committee stage. Mr. Chairman, I think that the Honourable Memb er from Fort Rouge was going to speak and unfortunately he's not here right now so it's wide open. I think all the questions have been ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution -- the Honourable Member for Osborne. MR. IAN TURNBULL (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, there has been over the last nine months a number of representations made to me about water quality in Whiteshell Provincial Park. I feel that it is incumbent upon me to raise these issues publicly in the Legislature. Sir, I am particularly concerned this spring with the water quality in the Whiteshell and particularly at Brereton Lake because of the low precipitation we had over the winter and because what is generally regarded as the low amount of moisture retained in the watersheds throughout most of southern Manitoba.

I know from previous cor.respondence with the Minister of Tourism and Recreation that the number of fish that have died in the Whiteshell area at Brereton Lake and other lakes, the amount of algae that is in the water there is regarded not as pollution by officials of the government but rather as the result of natural occurrences. Mr. Chairman, that may well be. The increase in algae, the increase in the number of fish that die in the lake may in fact be the result of natural causes.

But those natural causes as explained to me by officials of t:>oth the Department of Tourism, Recreai!on and Cultural Affairs and the Department of Mines, Natural Resources and Environmental Management, those natural causes are based on the amount or the lack of the amount of precipitation that falls in the watershed area. And if that is the case, if the increase in the algae count is related to the amount of water that is flowing through the watershed then it seems apparent, Mr.

Minister, that the amount of algae in those lakes, in the Whiteshell -- particularly Brereton - will be even higher this year (assuming the water levels are lower) than they were last year. And last year as he well knows there were considerable complaints made to him both through my representations and through those of some of my constituents and through agencies of the cottagers in the Whiteshell area. At least that is my understanding. Mr.

Chairman, I think that the Minister should explain to us what programs, what pro jects his department might have under way for the control of algae growth in these lakes for this coming recreational season. If in fact there are natural causes of the increase in algae then surely it would not be too difficult for his department in conjunction with·the Department of Mines to attempt if it is possible to regulate water levels in such a way that we could have a less algae count in those lakes. I am not convinced, Mr.

Chairman, from what the Minister and his officials have said that these increases in algae, the increases in the number of fish that are found dead on the

I I April 30, 1973 2205 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR, TURNBULL cont'd) ..... lakeshores are in fact the result of natural causes . I think that anyone who has been to the lakes in that area realizes that there are, there must be considerable growth in pollution of all kinds in those lakes as a result of what must surely be alm ost an over use of the lakes by power boats and by other devices or mechanization that result in chemi cals being put into the lake.

I think that the Minister might do well to explain to the Chamber and to the people of Manitoba just what his department has done by way of attempting to control pollution of the lakes in the Whiteshell and perhaps other lakes such as Rock Lake although I'm not fam iliar with the conditions in that lake, last year and this year. What has been done, Mr. Minister, to reduce not only the pollution, the solid waste pollution of those lakes but also to control the amo unt of noise pollution that some cottagers in the Whiteshell area claim they are having to bear, claim that they have to suff er from.

As far as I know there has been very little policing of motor boats speeds on these lakes, there has been very little attempt as far as I know to control the amount of oil and gas leakage or spill into those lakes, and there has been no control that I'm aware of, no effective control, of the number of water skiers that may be roaring around the lake behind motor boats.

Maybe all of these controls are not within the jurisdiction of his department but it's my understanding that they are, because the lakes I'm speaking of are in the Whiteshell Provincial Park and that clearly fa lls within the jurisdiction of the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Aff airs. Mr. Speaker, I can recall when I was a teenager going down to lake" like West Hawk where we used to stay, when the maj ority of boats in use on that lake were row boats.

There was one big power boat that I can recall, going twenty years back, it was called the Lady of the Lake I think, and there were a few outboard mo tor boats but very very few. As a matter of fact at West Hawk Lake back in the early fifties one could swim, perhaps you still can swim, from what was the only public dock at West Hawk. The last time I was at West Hawk would be -- oh, eight, no ten years ago -- and even ten years ago swimming through the oil slick off the end of that dock would be virtually im possible.

I ask the Minister of Tourism what his department has done to lesse n the amount of oil slick at West Hawk. What has been done, Sir, to preserve Falcon Lake from exces sive use by power boats and water skiers. There too, swimming fro m the end of what is now a large public dock may be prohibited but it certainly would not be overly pleasant as I recall. I know that from corres;>ondence I've had from the Director-Genera l of the Water Resources Branch that there are practicable methods of controlling algae on lakes in Manitoba.

The suggestion that I have had from the Director-G eneral of Water Resources is that the governmen t could provide technical assist ance for the spraying of water surfaces with copper sulphate. Mr. Chairman, I don't know how ef ficacious the use of copper sulphate would be. As a layman I know that the use of copper sulphate sounds almost worse than the present pollution of the lakes, particularly of Brereton Lake.

But I think that it would be useful if his department could give us some indication as to what advertising or what attem pts the officials of his department have made to research the use of copper sulphate on Lake Brereton in particular and its effec tiveness in reducing algae.

I haven't seen any studies done to indicate how the spillover effects of the use of copper sulphate would be detrimental to fish, people, foliage and what not that might be affected with the use of copper sulphate, I know that the cottages in the area apparently can apply to the Parks Branch of the Department of Tourism and Recre ation for assistance in the use of copper sulphate.

These kinds of voluntary programs of course to attempt to control pollution on a lake are not easily carried out by the cottagers or by the residents in an area and I think surely that given the nature of the problem and the seriousness of tre problem it might be useful for him to indicate to us what his department has done by way of trying to reach out to the citizens and cottagers in that area.

I remind him again that my concern arises not only because of representations made to me by constituents but also because of the apparent lack of water that would be the water sheds in the Whiteshell and this lack of water of course is going to intensify algae pollution. I call it pollution even though his officials don't. Mr. Speaker, I had some other points that I wanted to raise with the Minister. It is my great pleasure -in the su=er to spend as much time as I can up at Hecia Island where I've been going now for seven or eight years, and I have never been able to reconcile myself and

2206 April 30, 1973 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TURNBULL cont'd) . . . . . my enjoyment of that area as it was in its natural state with the programs for clearing and development of that area into a provincial park. Mr. Chairman, it was my understanding that originally the Hecla Island Provincial Park development was based on the use of that area as a marine area; that is in the use of Gull Harbor at Hecla and surrounding safe harbours on Black, Deer and other places, the use of that area by boats, and I assumed small boats.

The program as I understood it three or four years ago was to be carried forward first by the development of adequate harbours, adequate dock facilities in at least Gull Harbour, and for a variety of reasons including the arrangements between Provincial and Federal Governments for cost-sharing that development of dock facilities in Gull Harbour was not proceeded with, at least it hadn't been proceeded with as of last year.

Instead what we had in this area which was supposed to be a marine park, we had the desecration (in my opinion anyway) of an island, the ripping out of trees and the laying down of a golf course. Well the Member for St. George is not here, this Hecla Island Park development is in his constituency, I wonder to what extent the farm community up there will use the golf course. I've always wondered as to what the demand was for golf facilities in Hecla Island. Regardless of my concern there, Mr.

Chairman, the golf course is there, it may be operating this summer and honestly I cannot see apart from the cost sharing arrangements that prompted that development, I cannot see why the golf course was built instead of adequate dock facilites. There is no place suitable in Gull Harbour for docking a small boat. At least there hasn't been in the years that I've been going up there. I say that because there is a small private dock in Gull Harbour constructed I think by Mr. Jones whose family has lived and worked and fished there for decades.

That private dock can be used but in the last few years the high level of Lake Winnipeg has resulted in fact in that small dock being flooded. The only other dock there is a large wharf, very useful for docking the Lord Selkirk, very useful for docking large barges which are used to haul silica sand up and down the lake, but almost useless for docking a very small boat particularly sail boats. It's useless because the distance between the level of the water and the top of a dock is so great that any sailor coming alongside risks demasting his boat if the boom swings over in the lee of the dock and hits the dock.

I think if we're going to have low water this year, and it's obvious that we are going to have particularly low water, that Lake Winnipeg may not be as safe for small boating as it has been in the last decade or so, and if that is the case that the Minister and his department should look very closely at the provision of adequate dock facilities in Gull Harbour and the area around it. If they don't the large dock there may hardly be useful.

If you do dock your boat alongside of it, a small boat alongside of it, you won't even be able to get up on the dock because the dock's going to be ten feet above the deck of your boat. And that, Sir, is a use less docking facility for a small boat.

And yet we've !:).ad the development of Hecla Island Park based on a rationale of using it for small boating, for marine development, and to date as far as I know we have not had any sufficient small boat facilities put in there, except for a series of concrete pads joined together by steel rods which goes down in a place where most people got stuck when they launched their small boats. And those concrete pads of course are a launch facility and not at all useful for docking a small boat.

There is too, Sir, an associated problem which -- a problem that is associated with low water that doesn't fall completely within the jurisdiction of the Minister. It is the problem of navigability on the lake. It surely is apparent even to a hockey playing land lubber like the present Minister, that the lake if it goes down 10 feet or so from where it was (well it won't go down that low, I suppose), it goes down 5 feet from where it has been, the .small boat person is going to have some difficulty in avoiding the rocks which are going to be scattered around the shores of that park area.

And as far as I know, as far as I've been able to deter mine, there have been no new charts published for that lake. In particular, there have been no charts published, no navigation charts published for the area which would be bounded by the boundaries of the new Hecla Island Park development. I think, Sir, that that is regrettable. It seems fairly apparent that boat safety may make or break Hecla Island as a marine park.

If there are in a period of low water as we are going to have this summer a series of boating accidents, the word will get out that Lake Winnipeg around Hecla Island is not a place where recreational boatmen should go; and if that happens, it's conceivable that the Hecla Island Park might need a very long time to

I • I April 30, 1973 2207 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TURNBULL cont'd) . . . . . become attractive to boatmen in this province. And yet, Sir, it is a beautiful site. It is a natural site that certainly should encourage boating in this province. So I would ask the Minister what undertakings he·has had, what efforts his depart mental staff have made to have complete navigation charts made of the water in that park area and how useful these charts are going to be in a period of low water such as we are likely to experience this summer. Finally, Mr.

Speaker, I feel that I have to mention again the problem that Hecla Park has had with the spaces, the lots that have been cleared for use by tent and trailers. The people responsible for clearing those lots, according to the residents of the island, paid very little attention to the folklore or to the knowledge that the islanders had of Hecla Island. So what we had, Sir, was an absurd development. We had the government contracting out and doing contracting work in the area whereby land was cleared of trees so that lots could be pro vided for tents and trailers.

And the government proceeded with this apparently, according to the residents there, without an adequate consideration of the soil conditions that they were tampering with, which meant that when they cleared out an area for tents or trailers the trees left standing around the periphery of those lots were more exposed to wind and that meant that more of those trees were susceptible to be blown down.

Now, a 50, 60 foot tree cracking down on a tent again can be a rather disastrous occurrence and I think that the department might well have given more attention at the time of the development to the knowledge of the residents there and might have put the park, that is the trailer park and the tent part, on the meadows that exist on the island. It seemed to me just incomprehensible that they would clear out bush and trees and leave some meadows without adequate development.

Surely it would have been a better idea almost to lay out the meadow for a tent and trailer park and plant trees there, or transplant trees there, than to clear out trees that are already in existence and then by doing that create a safety hazard for the people that are living there. Mr. Chairman, there are other problem s that in the 6 or 7 years that I've been going up to Hecla Island that I have heard people raise with regard to that development. I won't get into them all.

I think the present Minister has done some good work in clearing up problems that did exist with expropriation of residential homes and the land of residents on Hecia Island, but generally I think that some of the rationale for Hecia Island Provincial Park could have been followed through, that is boat facilities could have been built, that aspect of the park could have been proceeded with before they did proceed with building a golf course and other facilities, which really when you face it, Mr.

Chairman, could be put up in practically any other place in Manitoba and hardly needed to have been put on Hecla Island. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Chairman, I do wish to make a few comments on this department and to the Minister perhaps I can offer some suggestions to him and I hope I don't come in for criticism when one offers suggestions like was noticed here on last Friday. I think that we must appreciate, Mr. Chairman, that Tourism on a national scale is the second largest industry in this country, second to the grain business.

I know the Minister has indi cated to us that it is the fifth largest industry as far as this province is concerned. I wish to say to him at this time that I am very glad to see the Minister in the Department that he is because he has a strong feeling for this department, not only to recreation but as well to tourism and I believe that he has made a good impact on it. But I don't think that we can be satisfied at this point in respect to development of our tourism in this country.

I know that Canadians and foreign tourists spent a total of $3. 8 million last year in Canada and most of this money was spent by Canadians. And surely if we can attract more of these people to this province I think that it would certainly create much more impact as far as creating more jobs and more development of the industry. I know it has been mentioned to the Minister that our Whiteshell and our Falcon Lake area on weekends is really congested. It's almost to its fullest extent.

On certain weekends you'll see camps and tenters, not only in the park but along the roadside outside the park and even along the streets inside the park. Perhaps it's time the Minister can start looking, can we not open several more lakes. They don't have to be fully developed but surely we should be building roads. And I'm thinking of the eastern side of Lake Winnipeg. I'm told, and many people that know that side of the area quite well, that have canoed the areas and snowshoed it, they tell me that that side of the lake is beautiful recreation potential, it's nice country,

2208 April 30, 19 73 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. PATRICK cont'd ) ..... and I cannot see why we don't build a road or at least start building a road on the east side of Lake Winnipeg. I would also like t o see, or would want to see the Minister give consideration to developing a second national park, be it a wilderness park or whatever it is, but I believe that for the last ten years we'v e been talking about we have to sign an agreement with the Federal Government before we allow the government to develop a park and to give away perhaps any natural resources that may be in that particular area.

The answers that we were given before, that we have to survey the area to find out if there ' s any mining resources in there bef ore we want to sign off a certain tract of land, and surely ten years is long enough to find out if there is any great amount of natural resources before we get on the track of developing a second park.

I would say to the Minister it's quite a stretch, you know, that we should start on a road program on the east side of Lake Winnipeg and if .he can get together with the Minister of Tourism I believe -- or the Minister of Highways -- that he would open and tap it to the kind of tourism potential that's probably not even seen in this province. I know that the former government under D. L.

Camp bell that started the park system in this province, the Whiteshell area, has made a trem endous im pact on this province in respect to tourism and in respect to recreation facilities for our people._ But I think it's time that the Minister gives consideration to looking to that great potential that exists on that side. I know that some of the other, f or instance in Cape Breton Island, Fort Louisburg attracts hundreds of thousands of people each year to that Fort.

I know that whe.n tourists come to this province I'm sure that the things that they ask and want to know is, naturally the first thing, what is there to see ? It may be going north in the wilderness, because Manitoba is not only just a stretch of flat land, I believe it's very rich in history and there's much to see. I know that some colleagues would agree with me that Fort Nelson at York Factory certainly has a very rich history. It's changed hands in the early time of this country several times and this in itself would be worthwhile promoting.

I know that there's no road to that poiµt at the present time, but I feel that we should definitely start developing a road on that side of the lake. I mention that while we only rank fifth in this industry, in tourist industry, I think the potential is there. Much greater than what we're doing at the present time. Again let me say that it's no criticism of the Minister, because the Member for Winnipeg Centre the other day when only some good suggestions were offered he took it as this was criticism and this was not criticism. I'm talking about the Member for Winnipeg Centre. Mr.

Chairman, the other point that was I believe raised by somebody, that some of our lakes are really getting overcrowded and it's a good point, that we should establish to what extent are our lakes getting polluted by motor boats and perhaps the type of field systems that we have around the lakes in our cabins that are situated on a lake shore or on a lakefront , be cause I don't believe that there is suf ficien t or proper inspection at the prese nt time. I would like to know what are we doing in this respect.

Is there any checks on the kind ·of plumbing systems that most cabins have and to what extent are our lakes getting polluted and perhaps in some cases by raw sewage, so I think it' s important that the Minister definitely check into this. I k11ow that they're making some good progress in this respect in our province, in the Province of Ontario, and surely that there is enough students available to be able to get the jot to do this type of work.

I know that the Minister has mentioned about our regional attractions and I believe this is an area that a good job has been done in respect to good regional attractions which draw many tourists from not only this province but from all over Canada and perhaps furt her. And I'm ref erring to such things as Lower Fort Garry and Altona Sunf lower Festival, Swan River Stampe de, The Icelandic Festival and the Trappers Festival, Manisphere, and so on.

This I believe certainly has been proven, that when the government started to give assistance in this area that these regional attractions have become quite, not small, but have become quite large and attract many many people to these areas. I know that the Minister mentioned about the Ukrainian Festival at Dauphin, the number of tourists it attracts, and this is indication not only for one but I believe an indication for all of these regional attractions.

So perhaps money spent right here ln Manitoba for these regional attractions is well spent to attract tourists from other parts of the country who spend money in this province. Now there was one more item that was mentioned the other day and I know that it has to do with the Minister of Health and Social Services in respect to the former buildings at Ninette,

I April 20, 1 73 2209 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. PATRICK cont'd) ..... of the Ninette Sanatorium. And I wonder if there is any way that the Minister perhaps can use this building without too much expense on it. I know that this province is very very rich as far as the cultural development is concerned and I can say to him that we're fortunate in this respect, because if you go to cities like Calgary they have very little.

In fact I have talked to somebody just recently who's been transferred to Calgary for the last 4 or 5 years and when you compare their activity in the cultural development as compared to Winnipeg it 's no com parison. When we have such things as the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, the Symphony, the Theatre Centre, the Opera and the Music Festival, Rainbow Stage, very few cities can boast about these things and I think we 'r e very fortuna te. I wonder if there 's any way that an Art Centre can be established at Ninette which is a beautiful little town and it's dying quite fast.

There 's no industry there, it's got a beautiful lake, why can't an Art School be estab lished in those facilities and be promoted. I think this could be done. Perhaps the Minister can review with all our cultural activities and developments what's taking place and can there be such a school established in Ninette. I think it's worthwhile considering, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Chairman, I will not take too much tim e because my colleague has talked on this department, and I just notice where the Province of Ontario is increasing its advertising budget this year alone by 50 percent for promotion of this department , for promotion of tourism, and I feel that the Province of Ontario with the congestion they already have from tourists in the centre part of Ontario, perhaps they don't need much more promotion and we are certainly not stepping up the promotion of tourism in this province the way we should.

The other point that I wish to bring to the Minist er's attention, and I know it's not his responsibility directly, but he has commun ication with the City of Winnipeg and they have the same concern, and that's talking about the greenbelt and curling clubs and perhaps the golf courses. It's easy to say well let the golf cour ses be sold because the membe rs cannot afford to keep up the property tax on it. But I don't think that should take place. It is my information that on per capita basis per thousand people we have less greenbelt in Winnipeg area than almost any of the other cities in Canada.

I think it's most important that we maintain a certain amount of greenbelt area for our citizens, and in case there is a golf course that will be sold and the members will buy some property further away from the city to develop their private club, I believe that one in the city should be purchased by the city and should be used as a public course. I don't think that we should sell at the prese nt tim e and get rid of all our greenbelt area.

The other one, I know the Minister will say that it's the city problem but I think it's also in his area, in response to the tax and asses sment on our recreational facilities, and I'm referr ing to curling clubs. I'm sure it affe cts the rural towns as much as it aff ects the city, and the concern that I have where in a matte r of ten years your tax has, in many instances has tripled or gone up as much as six and seven times.

I know in Assiniboine Memorial Club, from 1966 I know it has doubled in size; the tax that was on it in 63, $1600 and the projec ted tax for this year is $800, and still it's used -- (Interjection) -- A MEMBE R: 800 or 8000 ? MR. PATRICK: 8, OOO. A MEMBER: You said 800 . MR. PATRICK: I'm sorry, 8, OOO.

And the facility is used, I understand at least 40 per cent of the facility is used for high school students, fo r people that are not me m bers, and with the shorter work week, a four-day work week that we're talking about nowadays and some of it is already in practice, we. have to start thinking, more facilities for leisure time and more recreational facilit ies, and we're making it impo ssible for the �mes that already exist by taxing them com pletely out of existence. So it may not be directly the concern of the Minister but I am sure it is concern and he would like to see the facilities improved. Mr.

Chairman, these are just a few points I have, I am not being critical of what the Minister is doing at the pre sent time as I know he has a strong af finity for the department that he's in, but at the same time I don't think we should be satisfied because I think the potential in the tourist industry is, we 're just beginning to scratch it.

2210 April 30, 197 3 SUPPLY -TOURISM MR . CHAIRMA N: The Honourable Member for Point Dougla s. MR . MA LINOWSKI: Thank you, Mr . Speaker . Mr . Speaker , our province is rich in natural tourist attractions . Under the present government these attractions are being further enhanced by extending and improving the various tourist facilities. And to show we on this side can be fair, I also want to commend previous administrations for their efforts in field .

I am sure under the able direction of my honourable friend the Minister of Tourism, still more is being done to enable the tourists, as well as our own people, to enjoy the many bles sings this province has to offer. I feel particularly honoured , Mr . Speaker , to represent a constituency that has a special kind of attraction . Some honourable members may have more mansions or high rise buildings ir their co nstituencies ,others may have more industries. Some rural members can boast of richfarmlands or lakes and wooded areas.

The people of one constituency in Winnipeg may consider fuemselves lucky to have a mint erected in their midst . I happen to represent a constituency that has something of greater value than which can be produced in a mint. As the oldest settled community in Winnipeg, Point Douglas is rich in history. This too should be considered an interesting tourist attraction. Many Manitobans have travelled far and wide . They have toured Europe , they saw the historic sites in London, Rome Athens and in many other citie s. I invite them to come and see the historic sites of Point Douglas .

This may not be as great a scale as those found in Rome and other parts of the world, but just the same, as one of the oldest settlements in this city Point Douglas has an interesting history. I invite you to come to my constituency to walk the same streets the founders of this community walked . Here they built their homes, here they established businesses, here they coped with all the problems of a pioneering community. Today their names are and sharing in the street signs. These names are familiar to us , like McDermot , Bannatyne, Jam es, Alexander, Logan , Sutherland , Higgins and so forth.

Much , of cour se , has changed with the passing of the. years. Old buildings have vanished and new ones erected in their place . I don't know what was on the spot where the Warehouse Theatre is now located , but I notice the stage production which has had a long and succes sful run there, is called "Jaques Brel is Alive and Well and Living in Paris ." The names I mentioned, McDermot, Logan , Higgins and ther rest, are not just street labels. They are the names of people who a century or rn:ore ago were alive and well and living in Point Douglas .

Some of you are no doubt familiar with the story about the oldest home in Winnipeg. It has been in the news a number of times in recent years . In my research I came across a few newspaper clippings . They showed that this home had been built as a log house way back in 1862. It is still being lived in today at 99 Euclid Avenue . I hope the building can be preserved as one of the monuments of the pioneering days . Also the Immaculate Conception Church was established at 1883 . This is the oldest church in Point Dougla s. Some years ago they found many interesting documents in that building .

These were turned over to the Provincial Archives . One of these documents was a copy of the deed made between the Selkirk Estate and Robert Logan back in 1825 . I wish to thank Annie M. Henderson of the Manitoba Historical Society for her great help to me in getting the information about the history of my constituency . Her pamphlet under the title "From Fort Douglas to the Forks" is full of interesting historic highlights about Point Douglas and some other early settlements now making up the great City of Winnipeg. I could go on and on for hours but I don't worry - No . Mr .

Speaker, it is not my intention to give a long lecture on Manitoba history but I do want to stress the historic significance of this old community of Point Douglas . As you know, I come from Poland, a part of the old world where they have a very high regard for matters of historic relevance. Canada being still a relatively new country, we Canadians haven't yet developed a strong historic sense . In other parts of the world special efforts are made to preserve , enhance and exploit certain aspects of historic significance. Special efforts are made to preserve certain buildings and other effects . . . in history .

Millions of tourists must have seen the towers of London or the ruins in Rome . Many have visited the home Shakespeare lived in at Stratford-on -Avon. In any European city or those of Asia , there are many buildings over three, six or seven hundred years old and some even over a thousand. Some of the historic buildings which were demolished in the bombing of World

I April 30, 1973 2211 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR . MA LINOWSKI cont'd) ..... War 11 have been rebuilt at great co st . For example , the capital city of Poland was 85 percent demolished and last year when I visited there, the old part of the city was exactly reconstructed as it was in the 17th century at a great cost . Here in Canada the tendency is to tear down buildings before they were even 50 years old, even if they are still in excellent shape . The Royal Alexandra Hotel had for half of a century been a focal point for many tourists coming to the city, and had become an historic landmark.

I personally was sorry to see it go and I was strongly protesting, but still it didn't work. But, Mr . Speaker, that is now water under the bridge; the old Alex is gone and in its place there is a big empty lot in Point Doug las . My concern now is about the future develop ment of this whole area . Movie actors are not particularly noted for their profound social commentaries, but in the Winnipeg Tribune recently Robert Redford was quoted as saying," I feel our future lies in the past . We have loused up our tomorrows with today's greed, with the technological monster we created that has backfired on us" .

And he added, " Our yesterdays are what it is good to look back upon" . Mr . Chairman, I don't exactly share these gloomy views ofmovie actor Robert Redford . I don't think our future lies in the past, but there is a lot of truth in his statement that we have messed up our world . We have been most extravagant in the waste of our resource s. We have polluted to a dangerous degree our environment. We have mixed up steel scrapyards and heavy industry with the residential areas in complete disregard for the welfare of the people . who live there . Not only in my constituency but in many other areas .

Tourists coming to this city can see many fine sights but they can also see some very ugly sights and some very crazy sights too I' m not talking about St . Vital . By putting the concerns of business before the welfare of the people, all sorts of devilish things are done. A friend of mine has called my attention to what was done by the private real estate developers at the southwest corner of Broadway and Donald Street. Here we had a six-storey apartment building with a small empty lot beside it .

The people living in the block could look out of their window and see the sunshine that is, after all , what windows are for. Then along came the private enterprise developers and put a high rise office building next to this residential apartment building without leaving even a foot of space in between the two buildings. All the windows in this six-storey apartment building have been completely sealed up . If this isn't the craziest and most irresponsible act of building development, then I don't know what is.

Incidentally, this builder had no problem whatsoever in getting a permit from the city to seal off the windows and shut out the light for the people in that block. This is what you get from those who believe the welfare of business and profits must come before the welfare of the people . But no matter how badly we have messed up things, we cannot escape their effects by trying to live in the past, as Redford suggests . However, it is important that we know what went on in the past .

We ought to learn from past mistakes; we should appreciate the good things our ancestors did and tried and avoid the mistakes they made . We are a continuation of the lives of our ancestors. We not only live with the things of today but we also like to get the feel of how our ancestors lived . We read history ; we visit museum s; we wander through old buildings and look at pictures in an effort to recapture some of the atmosphere of the times of our forefathers. How empty our lives would be if all we knew was the present, if all the riches of history were hidden from us.

I hope in the develop ment plans for Point Douglas, high priority is given to preserving the historical mementos of the early settlements . I hope the oldest building there can be preserved in suitable surround ings as a museum . Efforts should also be made to display the old Ross House in a more attractive setting with a bit of park land around it - and I don•t mean a carpark.

In her booklet, Annie Henderson expressed the hope that some day the CP R track will be removed, and she asks, "Is it too much to hope that one day there may be a driveway along the Red River from the forks of Point Douglas with perhaps a small park at either end" ? I too share the hope, Mr . Speaker . In an old Free Press clipping of June 6th, 1959, there is some mention of a Point Douglas improvement plan. Apparently honourable members opposite, when they were the government, at least thought an improvement plan was necessary for that area, but it is obvious the plan never got beyond the paper stage .

I commend the present government for the improvement already made by the creation of a new housing for senior citizens in Point

2212 April 30, 1973 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR . MALINOWSKI cont'd) ..... Doug las, to improve Norquay Park and the Red River banks, but I'm looking forward to fur ther improvement s, for instance park and playground for William Whyte School . I believe this is also on.e of the oldest ones in Point Douglas constituen cy. I'm looking forward to improvements that will suitably preserve what is of historic value but, more important, we also want improvements that will make life better for the people living in this community .

Since we are deali ng with a matter oftourism, I see no reason why Point Doug las could not become one of the interesting tou rist attractions of this city. In concluding my brief remar ks , Mr . Chairman , there is just one other fact about my constituency, that I want to mention . I believe Point Douglas has the distinction of having the most co smopolit an population . Many of the first inhabitants of this country, the Indians, lived in Point Doug la s. Unfortunately they have become displaced people in their own land and their living conditions are far from ideal .

Many of the documents which we have , and many of the descendants of the early settlers hve moved to other areas of the city, but the Scottish, English and Irish who settled there a century or so ago are still well represented, but may be they are now outnum bered by other ethnic group s. Some of the MacGreg ors, Higgins and Jones have been replaced by Burtniaks , Urusk is, Hanuscha ks, Cherniacks , Greenbergs, Kapinski and al :;;o a few Malinowskis . The people whose ance stors came from Asia are also well represe nted in this area .

In fact, the Point Douglas voters ' list reads like the roster of the world's population . Every racial group is repre sented . I am honoured to be their first MLA . I am happy to say they are all living together in peace and harmony . Unfortunately this is not the case in the rest of the world . The people in Point Douglas are very public-s pirited citizens . They take an interest in what is going on. Many are active in all kinds of different organizations .

They hold meet ings to discuss problem s; some have prepared briefs on housing; some have brought their complaints and problems to me; many of them have also gone out of their way to help me . For this I am very grateful . Some of them are also praying with me in my church . Mr . Chairman and honoura ble member s, today I try to refrain from making a partisan speech. All I wanted to do is to remind you of the special features of my constituency.

Since we are dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Tourist and Recr eation , I wanted to make sure that the need for recrea tional facilities and the potential as a tourist attraction of Point Douglas are not overlooked by my honourable friend the Minister of Tourism and Recre ation . Thank you. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Sour is -Killarney . MR . EARL McKELLAR (Souris -Killarney): Mr . Chairman, I'd just like to say a few words on the Minister 's salary .

I'd like to congratulate him and his department on the work they are doing for the Province of Manitoba in promoting touri sm , and I'm sure that there will be very little cri ticism in the House regarding this department because it is one that I think - (Interjection) - Is he ? Well , okay. The Honourable Member for Rhineland is going to speak after me, I gu ess . Mr . Speaker , I only want to rise to say a few words about the International Peace Garden of which I am a member of the Board of Directors and also a member of the executive , and the year that we hope to have in 1973 . Mr .

Chairman , in 19 72 over 500, 000 people visited the International Peace Garden, the biggest year that we've had, in fact an increase of around 50, OOO to 60 , OOO people over the previous year. And I think much of the rea son was because of the increased enrollment in the Music Camp and also many of the new buildings that we have on the International Peace Garden that were not there before , the Eastern Star Chapel and the pavilion that was built back in the Canadian Centennial and these buildings are attracting many people .

Now this year , this coming year, I'd like to announce to the mem bers here that the Royal Canadian Legion are building a $31 5 , OOO athletic building - I think if they're not started right now they plan on starting very shortly, and this building will be a great asset to their four week training camp that they hold in the month of Augus t. It will be a facility that was · badly needed_by them and it will be of great benefit to the Music Camp also during their eight weeks that they hold in June and July . Mr .

Minister , I 'cl like to also say that one of the highlights that we hope to have completed before 1976 , the 200th birthday of the United States, is the Peace Tower , the millio n dollar Peace Tower that we hope to have built . Now I don't know whether this dream will come true

April 30, 197 3 2213 SUPPLY TOURISM (MR . McKELL AR cont'd) . . . . . or not but we 're hoping that it will so that we can celebrate the official opening of this Peace Tower on their birthday that will be held in that year, '1976 . Some of the other highlights that have taken place over the last few years, I think, are the support that's been given by governments as a whole towards this Peace Garden , and I want to thank you, , Mr .

Minister , on behalf of the International Peace Garden Board of Director s, for the support that you've given us in the past towards this worthy project in the Province of Manitoba , and I am hoping that maybe with your guidance in the coming year - if you 're Minister or happen to be one of our -- the Member for Roblin or whoever is Minister of Tourism and Recrea tion - that they will give us considerable more support in 1974 . I think in 197 2 you gave us a grant of $20 , OOO and maybe during your reply you can tell us what the grant will be for 1973 .

The State of North Dakota has been givfog us $45 , OOO a year for the last three or four years, and also considerable supp ort too for buildings in the International Music Camp , so the support from their government has been very worthy and we thank them for it too . Now, Mr . Chairman, there 's also one other very important event that's going to take place in my constituency in the month of Aug ust , and I'd like to announce to all the members who are in attendance that I, on behalf of Mr .

Ray Zelowsky of the Bois sevain Chamber of Comme rce, would like to extend an invitation to everyone here, all the mem bers and their famili es to come to Boiss evain on August 18th to take

part in the Canadian Turtle Derby which will be held on that day in Bois sevain, and I'd like to present - and I haven't got enough bumper stickers here , maybe the page boys could come here - I'd like to present to the First Minister and Mem bers of the Cabinet, and if there's not enough I'm going to have more here anyway for the ones that are short . For the Member for Morris, I'll give him one by Wednesday, I'll have more in here and you can -- I hope to see them on your cars too, whether it's on the bumper or wherever you may put it .

But I'd like to inform the member s that this is something of note, because it did get national pu blicity all across Canada and also all over United States last year . This first Canadian Turtle Derby was held last year in Boiss evain, the 2nd Annual Turtle Derby will be held this year, and al so, Mr . Chairman , I'd like to say for all those curlers in attendance, they're holding a summ er bonspiel on that weekend. So if you don't want to take

part in the Turtle Derby you can come and curl and enter in the mixed bonspiel which will be held on that weekend. And we're hoping many of you will attend , because I tell you this is really some thing whe11 you race your tu rtles in that great event there at a cost of entry of $5 . 00 to race it, and the prizes are worthy of note and I'm sure you will get a lot of fun out of this event. You can take your ,own turtle or you can borrow one on that day, it's up to the individual s what they decide to do about arranging for a turt le . Mr .

Speaker , the idea of the whole thing is to create publicity and I think the Bois sevain Chamber of Commerce have created somet hing unique and unu su al, and I think this is where the pu blicity is, it's come to their great town in southern Manitoba and which will I think be an annual event for many years.

Now the Member for La Verendrye has his Mennonite Museum out there which attracts thousands of people and there 's no sense of us building another great museum to duplic ate, "\ because we do have many Mennonite people in Bois sevain andKillarney district, so I think the Turtle Derby is something unique that will attract public attention for many years to come . So on behalf of the Chamber of Commerc e, I extend this invitation to the First Minister , memb ers of the government and all members of the Opposition, and we hop'e to see you there that day. Mr .

Speaker , I'd also like to say something too about the provincial parks in my constituency: the Spruce Woods Provincial Park and the Turtle Mountain Provincial Park. And I note with interest, Mr . Chairman, where the attendance has dou bled in the year 1972 compared with 19 71, and we had a total of 187 , OOO people enter Spruc e Woods Provincial Park which is 7 miles north of Glenboro on the road to Ca rberry .

They're wonderful parks , serving a usef ul purp ose , between No . 1 and No . 2 Highways and in an area where I think there was for years and years I gu ess , all through history, this land has been there practically not being used and it has come into, finally come into useful purpo se for all the people of Manitoba and all over Canada . Now we do 'have in that great park a desert, and it's Canada's only desert but unfortu nately the Canadian Department of National Defence have a lease on this park and you can go in and

2214 April 30, 1973 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR . McKELLAR cont'd) ..... visit this great desert but you go at your own risk, so if you do, watch out for the stray bullets that might be laying around . I' d like to say a few words about the Turtle Mountain Provincial Park, and the Minister, I think, mentioned this in his opening address , but this was opened last year and I' d like to know what attendance there was there last year, if there's ome breadkdown on the camping facilities and the overnight camping and whether much interest was shown.

I think it's got great potential there in the Turtle Mountain Provincial Park because of the fact that No . 10 Highway runs alongside it and we get hundreds of thousands of people coming from the United States along with the people from Manitoba and other parts of Canada, but it's going to take time to advertise this . It's located about 2 1/2 miles north of the International boundary there at the Peace Garden and I think by the time, when people find out that this park is there , much more use will be made of this park in the future .

Now mention was made of Ninette today and I' d also like to say that it's unfortunate that the lakes in the southern part of the province - I guess maybe it doesn't only affect the southern part of the province, but the lakes and the rivers are suffering from lack of water and I know the Minister can't do anything about that because he hasn't got that much power , but I hope that Mother Nature or somebody up above will take this under consideration during the next few months and give us some rainfall so that the lake levels and the river levels will come back to normal.

The Souris River, which I only live a few miles from it and travel over it every day, is the lowest I' ve ever seen it , in fact there 's hardly any water going over the dam , and it will have a terrific effect on the fishing this summer and also on the tourist potential along it too .

Also that Pelican Lake is terribly low, along with all the lakes in the Turtle Mountains, and this will have , you know, an effect on the tourist potential because of the quality of water, but there's really nothing I know of that anybody can do other than the good man himself up above , and let 's hope that he does the job during the next interval. So, Mr .

Chairman , that's about all I have to say other than that we appreciate everyone who comes through our part of the province, the southern part of the province, and we look forward to seeing all you members down at the International Peace Garden this summer, I hope, becaus'e we have something unique there, a Garden located on both sides of the border in United States and Canada, the one and only of its kind, and I hope that you do come and visit us during the months of June and July either before the election or after the election whichever you find convenient.

I don' t know when the election's going to be , but it's a nice place to spend your summer camping, and we have about 28, OOO people; there were cars camped overnight in the International Peace Garden last summer and there's lots of camping facilities there, so I hope you , once again, I hope you 're able to come and visit us there this summer . Thanks very much . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MRS . TRU EMAN: Mr. Speaker , I hesitate to make two speeches in one day but I have finally recovered from my laryngitis and I guess I '11 catch up for lost time .

I wanted to take this opportunity to enlist the interest and support of the Department of Tourism, Recreational and Cultural Affairs in the establishment of servo . . . memorials on the locati ons of a string of forts that were established by the early explorers who used the rivers as highways. I raise the subject now because of the imminence of Winnipeg 's Ce ntennial Year and this is always a time when we look back into history and pay some homage to our pioneers.

Within the boundaries of the present City of Winnipeg there were five forts, the Fort Rouge , the original Fort Garry, Fort Gibralter, the recent Fort Garry, and Fort Douglas . And it just happens, Mr . Chairman , that four of these forts existed within what are the present boundaries of the constituency of Fort Rouge . Of course I suppose to a certain extent it explains my special .interest. I was sorry that while the Member for Point Douglas was speaking I was called away to the telephone .

I know that he was referring to the history of that area but I don't know whether he specifically mentioned Fort Douglas, which existed in the early days on the point of land that is now known as Point Dougla s. I don't know whether he realizes that in the plans for the redevelopment ot that area around the Cultural Centre, there is provision for the rebuilding of the original Fort Douglas . It was to be re built between the Centennial Concert Hall and the Red River .

Now the plans and specifications for that Fort are still in existence, I believe in England, and they are available and the original Fort could be reconstructed, which I think would provide a great deal of interest

April 30, 197 3 2215 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MRS. TRUEMAN cont'd) ..... for the city and particularly for students to go and visit . But there's one fort that's vanished almost without trace, and that's Fort Rouge . There are few people who know how an area of the city became ever to be called Fort Rouge . But when I was first elected to Winnipeg City Coun cil , I made a point of looking into the history behind the name of this particular area within what was then known as Ward One, which I represented, and some very interesting information came to light .

The first structiire on the site of what is now the metropolis of Winnipeg, was, Sir, the LaVerendrye's Fort Rouge . When that explorer reached the junction of the Ass iniboine -- or at least the Winnipeg River and Lake Winnipeg, he established Fort Maurepas and sent ahead M. de Louv ieres and I think there were seven men, to the junction of the Red and As siniboine Rivers to build a fort at that location.

The Cree nation had asked the explorers to build forts in this area to help them in their defence against the Sioux , who came up from the Dakotas, up between the Red and As siniboine Rivers , and were funneled into this ar ea . When the explorer reached the junction of the two rivers in October , 1738 - that's 235 years ago - that fort had been built and was occupied by him . The Cree nation had asked the explorers for their support in their defence against the Sioux and had ten cabins on the I110rth bank of the As siniboine River but near that point of land, and they had two war chiefs amon gst their num ber .

The point of land between the Af?siniboine and Red Rivers at the foot of what is now River Avenue , was the site of that early fort. I have a map which was taken from a book written by Profes·sor Bryce descri bing those early forts of Winnipeg. I believe he wrote this book in 188 5 and it shows very clearl y that Fort Rouge was the first of all these forts . That fort -- apparently there was a great deal of tim ber .

At that time the banks were covered with trees and the trees extended a considerable distance south , and I believe they only cleared enough land to secure the logs they needed to build a fort and the palisade s. If they had any windows in that fort they were probably made of scraped deer hide . There were many stones, of cou rse , immediately available to make fireplaces .

I checked into this area with the city engineer at the time and he told me that erosion had taken place and that perhaps -- I believe it's as much as 200 feet might have vanished from that point down the Red River , so that the actual site of a fort may have gone, and it mightn 't be fruitle ss for archaeologists to attempt to find at least the pile of stones that made the original fireplace s.

I would urge the government to seize this opportunity of Winnipeg's Ce ntennial to assist it in establishing some suitable monument , perhaps just a cairn, it doesn't have to be an expensive project, but some recognition of those early explorers who built the first structure on what is now the metropolis of Winnipeg . Perhaps funds and workers to clear and beautify that site could be obtained through the PEP or LIFT programs or STEP or RAPP or God knows how many of them there are . There are paths under the Main Street bridge which are used by fishermen and occa sional people who do go out on that point of land.

There are two railway tracks which cross it and if the day co:rre s when the railways move out of the city then perhaps one of those foot bridges at least -- at least one of those railway bridges could be retained as a foot bridge from the north side of the As siniboine to the south bank. I would like to see that land at least mo wed, cleared , cleaned, and somet hing placed there so that stud ents could go and history would be far more real to them if they could actually see some thing which indicates the early history of the area .

I was pleased to see the reJection of the Watts Report by the City Council because it . would have taken much valuable land to be used for high speed expressways and I think it would be a terible shame if some of that land can be recovered for pu blic use , to let it go into such a project. There is so little visual recreation in Winnipeg since we have no hill s, and if we can recover the scenic beauty of the riverbanks for the people , I think that this is somet hing that we should start to do immediat ely. Well the opportunity's here with the City of Winnipeg's Centennial .

I feel that the project is worthy and that time is of the ess ence . The history of Fort Rouge is already obscured in the myths of ancient time s. I believe the LaVerendrye Journals are in existence in the Marine Mus eum in Paris and some are in Quebec , I believe possibly at McGill University, and I'm not certain, but they will confirm the fact that LaVerendrye passed this way and established Fort Rouge in his string of forts through the west . I appeal to the Minister and his Hi storic Sites Advisory Board to give their support to this project.which

2216 April 30, 197 3 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MRS . TRUEMAN cont'd) ..... has been presented to the Winnipeg Centennial Committee where it has been favourably received and is at the present time under consideration . I would be pleased to send these maps and an

article from Fort Lan . . . recently which outlined the project . MR . CHAIBMAN: The Honourable Member for Cre scentwood. MR . GONICK: Mr . Speaker , I just have a few words on the Estimates of the Minister's salary . I want to focus a bit of attention on the culture

section of the Minister 's responsibility.

Last session I had some harsh words for this department and the effect of what I was saying is that too niuch of the cultural dollar was being used to satisfy the cultural needs of a small elite group in the province , more specifically in the City of Winnipeg, and I notice there has been some ple,asant surprises for me in this regard because this summer the Winnipeg Ballet had a series of performances in the As siniboine Park which I attended, and I noticed in the crowd a kind of group of people who I don't usually see at the Centennial Concert Hall, and many of them remarked over the two or three evenings that I attended that this was the first time they had ever seen a ballet and how much they enjoyed it.

So, Mr . Chairman, this is certainly a step, a movement in the right direction, and I hope that these performances will continue even on an expanded scale . I remarked last year that the Manitoba Theatre Centre seemed to do very little of this. I don't know if there's been any corre�tion in this regard . I don't think so . But last year I was critical of the Theatre Centre in being very reluctant to tour the province, the rural areas, northern areas . I don't think there's been any change in that regard .

A problem which has been brought to my attention by many people interested in theatre, has been the limited extent to which the Manitoba Theatre Centre uses Canadian or local - either local or Canadian , personnel in their productions as compared to, say, five, ten years ago. When the Theatre Centre was first being established ten years ago or earlier, it was much more of a local, a Manitoba company and provided tr aining for many fine actors and actresses that have become tops in their field in Canada, and North America in fact,

whereas today you find it very rare , it's very rare to find Winnipeg actors and actresses used in Manitoba Theatre Centre , productions . I know that the Manitoba Theatre Centre has the Warehouse which uses the local people. somewhat more , but even there there is a tendency to use outside performers. I don't have the figures; I think some critic provided these last year in the local press and I don't think there's been any improvement at all in that regard, at least not during the times that I' ve been at the Theatre Centre , at the Warehouse .

It seems to be a rut that the Theatre Centre people are in which is to avoid using local actors and actress es, performers, even where these have been, in my observation - I' m 'no great critic, theatre critic , but I do enjoy the theatre and I think that the local personnel , our local people are very often just as good and sometimes better than any that are brought in. But there seems to be a kind of fetish to bringing in out side personnel both from the eastern points and from American points .

And that, I think, is a problem which the Theatere Centre really does not seem to be concerned about and I don't think that the Arts Council , which is one of the main financiers of the Theatre Centre , seems to be giving any direction to and I wish they wou ld . Similarly, in the same area, the Manitoba Theatre Centre and the Warehouse also seem to be very reluctant to encourage Manitoba Plays .

The performance of Manitoba plays by Manitoba authors - and I don't mean to sound chauvinistic and I don't think this is chauvinistic to suggest that our institutions should be -- there should be some available means by which our local playwrights should have available to them a stage to produce some of their productions , and I know that as a result of the unwillingness of the Theatre Centre , which is heavily subsidized by the taxpaye rs, to do this that many amateur theatre groups have formed in the last couple of years to provide opportunities for local actors and actresses and for local playwrights.

It hink it's a shame that the Theatre Centre seems to give so little attention to our local palywrights , writers, our performers and so forth. I think that they could do much more in this area and seem to be getting away from it rather than encouraging it, as they have in the past . Well, Mr . Chairman, I come to another area which bothers me and many others across the country , and that is in the film area .

And I don't mean in any way to get into the special, the favourite topic of the Member for Thompson but in a different subjec t, and that is that we have built up in the last few years in Canada a sub stantial film industry sub sidized by the

April 30, 1973 2217 SUPPLY TOURISM (MR . GONICK cont'd) ..... Canadian taxpayer to a sub stantial degree . We have a Film Corporation of Canada, I think it is called, which produc es several dozen pictur es , full-l ength movie pictu res a year, which is certainly an important development in the cultural life of Canada . I'm not speaking of the National Film Board, Mr .

Chairman, because that has been around for many many years and they of course are expert at document aries and at sho�t film s, but I'm speaking of a fu ll -length film industry which has burgeoned the last few years and has produced many excell ent._film s.

The problem there is that these film s, while getting very serious and widespread circulatio n outside this country in the United States, in Europe and throughout the world, seems to have very great difficulty in being shown i� this country, and in this Province of Manitoba I know that -- and I'm kind of a film buff -- but I find that it is virtually impossible to see a Canadian film in Winnipeg. Perhaps two or three a year are shown, some of them new, some of them old, but I know that dozens are being made .

I don't say that all of them are excellent, most of them I'm sure aren't worth seeing, just as most films aren't worth seeing, but I'm sure that each year a half dozen, dozen Canadian film productions are available but because they're produced in this country and they are good films because they have received awards from countr ies all over the world , and yet we in Winnipeg are not allowed to see them unle ss we travel to Montreal or somewhere in Quebec , which seems to be the only place in Canada that has a widespread showing of Canadian-produced film s.

I think that the reason for this - and it's quite plain, there 's no problem in explaining it - is the distribution industry of films in Manitoba and in Canada is by and large controlled by two or three companie s; one is a British -owned operation which runs the Odeon theatre, and the other is Famous Pl ayers. And they buy the films in packages from U.S. sup pliers and they're not interested in showing Canadian films because Canadian films haven't had the same exposure in the media and in the film magazines and so forth.

They feel it might be harder to sell the Canadian film , and in any case the other films are much more readily available to the, it's easier to get, so they just don't bother .

And I think that this is a discredit to the people of Canada and to the film produc ers of Canada who simply can't get their films shown in this country un less they are, well , perhaps one or two a year get a decent exposure , but many more good Canadian film s are created and I think that it may be necessary, at the least, for the Mini ster to call in the owners of the local distribution , film distributiun systems and see what they are willing to do to make available to Manitoba filmgoe rs Canadian-produced film s.

Some people in Ontario have recommen ded , the Canadian film artists have recommended a quota system whereby the indu stry, the distribution industry, would be required to show at least a dozen Canadian films a year.

It's not that unr easonable a demand and I would think that un less the distribution industry is willing to implement some policy, to implement a policy which would allow our local population to view Canadian films to a far greater degree than what they have through some voluntary system , that I wouldn 't be at all opposed to some kind of a local requirement, and I think it is within the jurisdic tion of the government to do that, whereby they would show at least, each theatre would be required to show two or three full length Canadian movies a year.

It certainly would be a reasonable request which if they wouldn 't meet on a voluntary basis I think could be required of them in view of the fact that the people of Canada are sub sidizing the indu stry, the film industry, that in order to encourage our culture we have to provide a media through which, a vehicle through which they can express their artistic talents, and this is not being done in the film distribution system in this province.

So I would say that at the least the Minister should call in the indu stry, the distribution industry, see what they are willing to do , in a volunteer basis, in making available to Canadians Canadian film s, fu ll- length film s, and if they are unwilling to mend their ways in a reaso nable fashion, then I think we would be in order in asking the Minister to impose some minimal quota system whereby each theatre. would be required to show two or three Canadian films a year to provide the exposure of Canadian films to the public . Well these are my only commen ts, Mr .

Chairman, on the cultural aspect of the Minister's department . I just have a few brief comments on recreation . Many members have spoken on this and know more about this field than myself, but I have been li stening to the Minister's response to various points. I notice that moneys are finally going to be available from the Province to the City with regard to community club facilitie s, recrea tional facilities . This is something I've asked for for some time . I know that in my constituency the community club known as Earl Grey, which services a very wide area, very large num bers of people ,

2218 April 30, 1973 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR . GONICK cont'd) ..... it's a working class area, it has very very deficient facilitie s, it has no playing field to speak of, it has a small community club with limited staff and very very poor facilities which are supposed to function for a very wide area . The young athletes . are forced to use playgrounds , playing fields of some miles away, Grant Park 's playing fields for their soccer and their football and their baseball . There just isn't the grounds in Earl Grey Comm unity Cl ub . Nevertheless, they do very well .

The soccer team at Earl Grey has done extremely well . There 's an incidfmt that developed there just a few years ago which is worthwhile desc ribing to mem bers to show the problem , it's a simple problem . This team was a championship team and I think it's called the Fort Rouge Soccer Club but it operates out of Earl Grey Community Club . It's a very yo'ung team and it's a championship team . They wanted to go to the Lakehead about two years ago to compete in a tournament and they got together the money for the fee, the entrance fee , but they didn't have the funds to travel.

And the Community club didn't have the money for them ; the Sports Federation didn't have the fund; so finally because I was fairly close to the Community Club and my constituency executive happened to have several members who are also on the executive of the Community Club , they came to the NDP constitue ncy of Crescen twood and asked us to make a donation to their team to get them to the Lakehead, which we did, because had we not they claim they wouldn 't have been able to compete in this tourn ament .

But I think it's ridiculous -- actually we did it because of the need but I don't think it should be incumbent on a political constituency association to send a soccer team to the Lakehead .

Now this $15 , OOO here which is, I sup pose , certainly an improvement, but I know that in our case the main problem is a lack of land; there just isn 1 t the space, because this area of the city was built up a long time ago before the need for recreational facilities was really understood or felt and this $1 5, OOO, even multiplied by two from the contribution by the city , just isn't going to do very much in a constituenc y like this, a community club like this .

And I really think that the Minister should be priorizing and giving priority to certain areas which are particularly badly placed with regard to facilities, so that the money can count for some thing rather than being spread out around the city in small pieces which will not really do very much for anyone .

Some system of giving priority to certain areas of the city each year seems to me wo uld be a -- it may not be politically as attractive , spreading tre money arou nd, but I think it would be in terms of meet ing needs over a period of time with $195, OOO going to one or two community clu bs, seems to me would do a great deal for a large nu mber of people .

whereas that amount of money spread out among many I think it would do very little . I know that the province is requiring the city to also put an input , but I still believe that the problem in most of the poor areas is lack of space and I don't think a Small amount �f money is going to make any difference. W

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-5-80
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 5th hansardpdf 80.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d968b1f1aa9cd0f95048fadde6f89e4dc8e7aa04

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