Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 19B (32nd Legislature, 3rd Session)

32-3-19b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 198 - 8:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 10 MAY, 1984. Pr;nted by the Oflice of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Sieve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, O.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, O.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vie SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Spring field Thompson La Verendrye Mi nnedosa Rhi neland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Aiel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tu xedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirk field Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin- Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Bur rows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Os borne River Heights Flin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP IND NDP NDP NDP NDP IND ND P PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 10 May, 1984. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS HON. J. PLOHMAN: You have to hold the fort until the rest of them get here. MR. D. ORCHARD: We were talking about the Morden Winkler Corridor, the Minister said that it was progressing satisfactorily. Is there a design plan that he's seen? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, P. Fox: The Honourable Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: No. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Is that because none exists? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I'm advised that there are several of them and they're currently , I guess, before the design people in the department. I haven't seen ... MR. D. ORCHARD: Better yet, Mr. Minister, be honest between you and me because there's nobody else around . You haven't seen them because you don't want to look at them, because those plans have been ready for a year. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't know if that was a question but I haven't asked for a lot of things that I don't know exist yet.

Obviously this has never been brought to my attention yet and I haven't asked for it, because as I said, we haven't had the occasion to discuss it. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, you know, that's kind of interesting, Mr. Chairman, that's kind of interesti ng. Because the Minister gave us a nice spiel earlier about how they decide where roads are - traffic counts are figured in and condition of the roads and etc., etc. and that's one of the busiest corridors. lt's not in the best of shape and he hasn't seen it. Well I'm not going to argue with the Minister.

I just want to tell him that I hope the plan is in place, so we've got something to work with when the government changes because that's a priority - not this government's priority, but - (Interjection) - Mr. Chairman, do you hear some cackling and some interruptions that are totally uncalled for? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No . MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm glad you're so hard of hearing. Mr. Chairman, can the Minister tell me if there was any co-ordination between Manitoba Hydro and the 651 Department of Highways along the Morden-Winkler Corridor on the replacement of a hydro line? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: As I indicated earli er, Mr. Chairman, there are several alternative plans that have been develop ed. They're in the department at this time and I'll be asking to look at those and at that time I'll determine exactly what the status is. In terms of hydro line, as I indicated to the honourable member, I hadn't seen the plans and therefore I'm not in a position to comment on a hydro line. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, I hate to inform the Minister but the status of the hydro line is already established. They've put it in.

What I'm asking the Minister is whether there was a co-ordination with the several plans that are in place so that that hydro line won't have to be torn out a year or two from now. Was there co-ordination between the planning and design department who have developed several plans, and the Manitoba Hydro? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would hope there was and would assume there was and I am advised from the department that there was consultation, so we'll take it from that, that there was co-ordination. MR. D.

ORCHARD: So in other words we're not going to have another situation as we did with 432, where the Te lephone System didn't check about future plans on that road, plowed an underground line which had to be removed two years later, which normally is a cost shared item between Te lephones and Highways but in this case wasn't, because they didn't co-ordinate with Highways and we never paid them a nickel to move their own line. lt was an entire loss to the people of Manitoba and the Te lephone System .

The Minister, I take it, is giving me the assurance that will not happen with redevelopment of the Morden-Winkler Corridor. HON. J. PLOHMAN: There are a number of alternatives, as I indicated, in the plans. lt depends on when those alternatives were developed and which one is selected as to whether it would be a problem with the Hydro line as 1 would see it. I would have to review those, and I'm sure there must be some alternatives that would take into consideration the relocation of the Hydro line as it exists, if those plans were developed in conjunction at the time the Hydro line was placed.

So we would have to look at the alternatives that are there, and obviously want to consider that. MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister, I think, is now coming around to the stage where he should have been to start with in saying that he doesn't know whether the Hydro line is ... HON. J. PLOHMAN: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I indicated that. I told him I hadn't seen the plans, and

ThuradaJ, 10 May, 1884 he's quite aware that I hadn't, sd how could I know where the Hydro line is? The advice I have from my department is that this was considered, Mr. Chairman, and there are other alternatives that were developed that possibly may have been developed after, and those will have to be looked at. I say, the Hydro line will be considered, the placement where it has been placed will be considered when we're reviewing those alternatives. MA. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, one point, the Hydro line's already in; any consideration of where the Hydro line is going to be is too late.

What are the later considerations the Minister referred to that may not have been part of the decision as to where to relocate this Hydro line? HON. J. PLOHMAN: l'm'not in a position to say where the Hydro line went if it was located there some time ago. The alternatives that we're looking at are the alternatives for the road and not for the Hydro line obviously. MA. D. ORCHARD: When were those new alternatives put in place that the Minister is referring to? HON. J. PL OHMAN: I said, Mr.

Chairman, that some of those may have been developed after the Hydro line was in place, but I am not in a position at this time to know exactly when they were. If the honourable member would like more information I can get that reviewed and brought forward to the Committee at some later time if that's what he would like, but we don't have those detailed plans in front of us right at this particular time. I would be pleased, as well, to discuss them with the honourable member at any time if he wants to come into the office and discuss those plans. MA. D.

ORCHARD: Well, that's a very kind offer from this Minister because I made the offer to the Member for Lac du Bonnet when he was Minister and I told him I could offer my assistance in choosing a route, and he said, I gave up that two years ago. So, I want to thank you, Mr. Minister, for being so kind in offering to bring the plans up that you've got and we can sit down and take a look at them.

The Hydro line was relocated last fall and would the Minister undertake to provide the information on Monday, or when next we return to the Estimates should we not finish them tonight, to check and see whether co-ordination was done between Planning and Design Department and Manitoba Hydro to get an opinion as to whether their relocated line was secure from future highway development? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I've indicated that I will provide that information.

If we're still in Estimates. we'll have that for the next sitting of the Committee, and if we're not, the honourable member, as I've said, has a standing invitation to discuss this furth er. MA. CHAIRMAN: 3.(

a) and 3.(b). MA. D. ORCHARD: Oh no, not yet, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, 75 south, the twinning project, is there any design work going on around the Morris Town area? HON. J. PLOHMAN: As the honourable member knows the development of a major project like that is done in· incremental steps and the paving contract is out for the first section, another

section is scheduled for grading, and another

section of a suitable contract length is in the survey and design stage. Acquisition is progressing as well along the route. We're looking at progressing with that in an orderly fashion as fast as funds will enable us. There are signficant expenditures there. I can get the exact figures in terms of the actual paving and grading contract. We are not, at this time, at the stage of doing survey and design work and acquisition around the Town of Morris at this time. MA. D. ORCHARD: Thank you. Mr.

Chairman, could I ask the Miniister whether that's going to be done by Planning and Design or is it some Inclination to possibly farm that out to private consulting? HON. J. PLOHIIAN: Mr. Chairman, we're not at that stage where we have considered that matter, in terms of making a decision, whether that will have to be In House or by hiring a consultant. I can't say at this point whether that is an imminent matter that we have to be considering at this time.

We may be looking at that within the next year, but we're not at the point where we'd be progressing along the route to feel we have to have that undertaken at this time. MA. D. ORCHARD: On Highway 75, has the City of Winnipeg advanced any plans to the department on completion of their

section in St. Norbert, from the south boundary of the city up to probably central St. Norbert? Are they going to be twinning their portion of that over the next couple, three years of capital construction? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I'm not aware that they're going to be twinning lt, although this is a matter of some discussion between the department and the city officials. I would have to get a status report on exactly where those discussions are but it is a matter of discussion between the city and the department at this time . 652 MA. D.

ORCHARD: Okay , I'd appreciate that information and when he's getting that information as to the status of talks, whether there are any time projections the city might have in terms of when they feel they might be moving into construction, potential construction

schedule as well? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We're awaiting a decision from the city on a proposal that was made to them with regard to developing that section. Within the city boundaries, it involves the possibility of some trade efts with some other provincial roads that are also within the city limits, and we have made that proposal to them and they haven't made any other counter proposals on it to take over some of those provincial roads. So until we get a response from them on that, we will have to wait for any further developments. MA. D. ORCHARD: I'd appreciate that. I guess the point that my colleague, the MLA for Lakeside, was

Thur.clay, 10 May, 1984 making earlier on, is that we've got a functional four lane coming in from Ston ewall with a two-lane bottleneck in-between . We've made the investment, provinci ally, to try to im prove the transportation corridors and the same thing could happen with 75 and the Minister is well aware, the department is well aware of that. I'm simply asking whether there was any potential scheduling for reconstruction that the city might be looking at, and obviously there isn't one that they can offer to the department. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Right, they haven't indicated that yet but, as the member relates, we are concerned about that, realizing that that would be a

section that would not be developed the same as it would be on both the north and south parts, so we will be concerned about that and have indicated our proposal and are anxious for it to be resolved. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the Brandon area study has been completed and given to the Minister. The recommendations, if I recall them, aren't too favourable to the eastern industrial access. They don't really believe that's necessarily a wise application of construction dollars at this stage of the game; they believe a much wiser appl icat ion would be in im provements of the north by-pass of No. 1.

What are the Minister's thoughts on that? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we have received tha t report and the mem ber is correct that the consultants did not place it high on the priority list, the eastern access. However, that is not consistent with the wishes of the communit y, of the City of Brandon, of the rural muni cipalities in the area, and it is also not consistent with our thinking in terms of the need for an alternate route for hazardous goods into and out of the industrial area of the City of Brandon. So we have placed a higher priority, Mr.

Chairman, on the eastern access than the consultants had indicated to us. In the absence of a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I would ask for some order of the meeting so that I continue and, following that order, then I could say that we are looking, as well, at the matter of the north by pass around Brandon. We are considering interim impro vements that we feel would improve the safety through improved lighting and access, and so on, as it applies to the

section of the Trans-Canada High way that passes through the north end of Brandon. Those would, upon completion of that, we feel that they would suffice for a number of years into the future. So a by-pass at this point in time is not a high priority. MR. D. ORCHARD: A north by-pass. HON. J. PLOHMAN: A north by-pass. So we are looking at proceed ing with some functional studies in the area of the eastern access to determine the best route, that hasn't been determined yet.

How ever, there are several routes to be considered, there is some difference of opinion yet, and we want to develop the study to determine the best route, and we are going to be proceeding with that this year with the hopes that we can then proceed with acquisition in the very near future . 653 MR. D. ORCHARD: When the Minister indicates that, I believe he said we put a higher value on the eastern access than does the consultants; by "we" does the Minister mean he, and the MLA for Brandon East, and the government; or, by "we" does he mean he and the department, the experts in the department? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I would think that there is fairly general agreement on that point amongst all of the groups that the member has mentioned. MR. D. ORCHARD: Fairly general agreement. I don't like to badger this freshman Minister, but does ... HON. J. PLOHMAN: it's been two years now, so it's okay. MR. D. ORCHARD: So I can badger you then, fair enough. Is the Minister saying that the department believes the eastern access is a priority over redevelopment of the No. 1 North on the north side of Brandon? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, that's the case.

That does not mean that the department and myself feel that there shouldn't be any planning for a northern by-pass, should that be necessary at some time in the futur e in terms of planning, and we have to look at that but, in the meantime, we feel that the matter of hazardous goods, transportation to and from, as I said, the industrial area, Simplot and so on, the industrial area of Brandon, is very im portant and, therefore, ranks of higher im portance.

I think one of the matters that would come to bear there, of course, is the usage of such an access and would increase in usage if it was closer into the city, in terms of providing a way for people travelling to and from the residential

section to the industrial section, and that has some bearing on the usage, obviously, and would have some bearing on the urgency of having it constructed. We are looking, as I said, at both of the routes, three of the routes that were proposed by the consultants, but a route closer to the city would certainly have some advantages in terms of usage and, therefore, would be a very im portant consideration in dete rmining the urgency of that route. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Can I ask the Minister if the Department is carrying on with surveys, designs, plans for the Assiniboine River crossing south of Shilo, and replacing the Treesbank ferry? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We have not placed that, as the mem ber would kno w, in the program as far as proceeding with the bridge and the operation of the Treesbank ferry will continue. There are plans in the department that would provide for a crossing there, but that has not been a matter that we have priorized this year to proceed. MR. D. ORCHARD: Could the Minister explain the reduction of five SMY's? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: We're dealing with the elimination of two regular positions or departmental positions and

Thursday, 10 May, 1914 then adding one regular position, that the decrease of five. The decrease in the two regular positions will mean that some of our design work will have to be done in the district offices which we feel they can carry out and so, again, would not result in a great deal of loss of planning ability in the design in that area but would simply have that trans ferred to the districts and I think they'r e capable of doing that.

The four departmental positions are mostly on data collection for traffic counts and so on and we're looking at having some of that work done in alternate years, not doing as much of it at this time and not doing as many studies in the areas, similar in the same areas every year but will reduce the number of studies in data collection that we would have, but not to the point that we would not have the information that we require. MR. D. ORCHARD: Are those positions presently filled? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. Mr.

Chairman, if I could, the addition of one position that I didn't elabor ate on is Planning Engi neer , and this will help us with the preparation of our annual Hig hways program and the development of a three-year Highways program which we are working on. The five positions were filled positions and the individuals involv ed will be redeployed within the department. MR. D. ORCHARD: Where will they be redeployed when you're dropping 30 positions overall? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: That hasn't been finalized at this time. lt may be within the department, it may be within other departmen ts, but they are sched ule d for redeployment and that hasn't been finalized as yet. MR. D. ORCHARD: When do they get their last pay cheque? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We have five months yet, until I believe the end of September before that has to take place. MR. D. ORCHARD: And if they're not redeployed by then, what will be their status? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We fully expect that they will be redeployed.

We will make it a priority in filling of positions that people on the redeployment list are given first priority to fill those positions, provi ding they have similar qualifications, they could be trained for those positions. MR. D. ORCHARD: The design engineer that's being hired,. is that a newly recruited position from outside the Civil Service? HON. J. PLOHMAN: lt probably would be a graduate at the entry level. MR. D. ORCHARD: lt won't be filled by a redeployment from this department or another department? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That I can't say, Mr.

Chairman, conclus ively, it's possible that if ther e was a suitable 654 person on the redeployment list that may happen, but that was not the intention when that position was added. I say that it cannot be ruled out because of the consideration for people on redeployment lists. MR. D. ORCHARD: So, Mr. Chairman, we've got six people that in five months time, if they don't get reployed, are getting their last pay cheque, at the same time, we're bringing in a brand new person. That would be a fair assumption if there is no redeployment. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, there are a number of if's in there. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Only one. HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, there will be redeployment because I've indicatej;l there's first priority and we've every reason to believe tha t these people will be redeployed. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, that's an interesting position that the Minister puts out, but I can see why he doesn't need too much capacity in Planning and Design.

When you take a look at the consistent reduction"in highway construction that this government is funding, they don't need much of a Planning and Design capacity but, unfortun ately, that cannot last forever and it will be int erest ing to see next year, as we approach the Estimates, to find out if these six people did, in fact, get redeployed. That's all the questions I have on this section, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have one or two questions that I'd like to ask of the Mi nister and I ask it in direct relationship to some of the activities that are taking place, particularly in the southwest region, dealing with the oil haulage that's taken place in the last two to thr ee years, and the kind of deterioration that has taken place within the road system in the southwest. I would ask the Mi nister, dealing with that, I see that in the acquisition of right of-way that there is a small piece of right-o f-way being purchased for the north end of 256. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, just before the Honour able Member for Pembina leaves, I think maybe I should raise a point - I believe the Member for Virden was not here when we discussed and agreed, I believe that we would discuss the Capital program . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: He's discussing planning, future planning area, th ree-year plan for the area. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, he's referring to Acquisition/ Construction in the construction program. I think that, if he's making direct reference to that, we should deal with that under the construction program, when we get to there, as opposed to a Planning and Design function. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I guess I was going to make a comment about the acquisition and design.

Thursday, 10 May, 1984 The major thrust of my question, I hadn't got to it yet, and that was, what is the government doing and what are the overall plans of the government to have a longer term road building strategy for that particular community because it is going to cost a lot of money? I would think there must be some kind of program, I would hope there is some kind of plan or program in place that's going to rebuild the road system and accommodate the kind of haulage that has taken place or to repair after the haulage that has taken place. If I'm out of order, then I'll go to another section. MR.

CHAIRMAN: We had agreed earlier in commit tee that all those relat ing to Capital expenditur es will be taken up under that item. All those expenditures related to Capital assets will be taken accord ingly under that section. The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Then if we're talking about planning, Mr.

Chairman, let us go to another area of concern, and that is, the plans that the Department of Hig hways have put in place to rebuild and to accommodate some of the farm community that have had to move grain longer distances because of some of the rail line rationalizing and the change in the recent freight rate structure that we're seeing taking place, and some of the weights that may be transferred onto some of the highways.

Have the Department of Hig hways given any consideration to the kind of usage that will be used on some of these highways, or have they not bothered to put in place any program or plans to look at the kind of extra work that's going to have to be put on these roads? Has there been any work at all done in that area because I know this Minister of Hig hways, this government, have made the case, as I'm sure many governments have, to the Federal Government that when the Crow rate changed and additio nal charges went on to the railroad system that there would be a transfer onto the highways?

Are we able to substantiate those arguments or is the department able to substantiate them? Have they made plans for it or are we just carrying on at the same pace? Does this Minister have any imagination at all as to what may or may not take place within Manitoba? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think our government has shown a great deal of imagination in this area ar.d action as well, and I will relate that. I just want to comment briefly on the first issue that was raised by the honourable member with regard to the highway system as it affects and services the Waskada area.

We are looking at the imp lications to the highway system of the pipeline that is scheduled to be put in place and how that will alter the traffic patterns there. Once we have determined that, we'll be able to be in a position to priorize the roads in that area that will need upgrading because of the increased traffic due to the oil in that area.

Insofar as the transferance of cost from the province to the Federal Government, as the member may be aware, our Transport ation Division has comple ted a study that would indicate the transferance of costs in the neighbourhood of $52 million to the province as a result of rail line abandonment. However, we haven't 655 been successful despite our best efforts to have the Federal Government partici pate in the transferance of costs because of the shift from federal jurisdiction of the rail lines to the province up to this date in terms of dollars.

What we have been successful in doing is having the inclusion of the study of rural transportation needs, particularly as it applies as well to rail line abandonment and how that has affected travel requirements and road requirements in the various areas of the province where rail line abandonment has occurred. We have successfully had that put in place in the transportation subagr eement that was signed just recently, and a major study that will involve federal provincial officials will be done to document those costs that are transferred to the provincial jurisdiction.

Then, of course, we'll be in a better and stronger position to have the Federal Government exercise its responsibility with regard to those transfers of costs. So we're moving in that direction with this study that we'll document in addition to the study we've done already provincially. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, if the Minister will allow me to make this point - again, if he wants to comment - that because there is a pipeline being built in the sout hwest I don't want him to think that that will fully do the kind of service to that community that has to be done.

There's still going to be a pretty massive amount of heavy traffic with the movement of heavy equipment, drilling equipment, service equipment that will be continually going over those roads. I would hope that the Minister doesn't think that he's going to get off the repair end of it because the roads have depleted to the point of major construct ion. As wel l, the acquisition of this 256 right- of-way of the north end, I think there could have been a justification made for the rebuilding of the south end of 256 and 83 Hig hway which has taken the same kind of weight that knocked the north end of 256 out.

I would as well asked the Minister if he has taken the time to take a tour through that area and travel on some of the roads that have accommodated the millions of dollars that he and his government have been recepients of, the millions of tax dollars coming off the oil industry, that the people there can hardly understand why there hasn't been some reinvestment done in the commun ity.

Certainly the pipeline I'm sure will take some of the weight off, but I do believe that it's incumbent upon any government - and I don't care what political stripe they are - to reinvest some of the funds into the infrastructure to make sure that it's able to be maintained. I have one further comment, Mr. Chairman. I'm glad my colleague, the Member for Pembina, raised the ferry crossing. lt may not be a priority item in the mind of the Minister and the government but for the community of Wawanesa and those people on both sides of that river and that area, it is a priority.

There is a lot of money sitting in the Shilo Camp where the German soldiers come over to do their exercises. By not having a bridge on the Assiniboine into Wawanesa and some of the towns, it has virtually cut them off from getting revenue from the kind of resources that are there to accommodate them. So I make the case for Wawanesa and those southern communities because it is directly

Thursday, 10 Mar, 1984 cutting them off from access to the kinds of funds that are sitting in Shilo and it's deterring the growth of the communit y. They make a good case for it. it's a priority in my mind and I would hope the Mini ster would repriorize it in his. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(

a) and 3.(b) - Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, just to make a few comments on some of the statements of the Honourable Member for Arthur, in terms of the road system in the area - I was just going to say that sometimes it seems that the Honourable Mem ber for Arthur can read my mind, and when he's talking about how important it was that we still consider that there will need to be uprgading of those roads in that area, that's exactly what I was thinking. I did not feel that by putting in place a pipeline we were going to elimina te all the need for improving those roads.

So we're right on the same wave length there. In terms of the tour of the area, I hope to be able to do that this summer. I would certainly like to contact the honourable members. I know they'd want to assist and make sure that I get to the right places and I will be letting them kn ow that I'm there. - (Int erjection) - Of course we will do the right things once we're the re, with the honourabl e memb er's help, Mr. Chairman. In terms of the Treesbank area, I've said that we will be looking at that and considering it again in next year's program.

There's only a certain numb er of dollars to go around, as the honourable members have lamented. Therefore we are unable to include it this year. But that does mean that it is important. MR. D. ORCHARD: I just caught the last comments the Mini ster was making in response to my colleague's questions on Federal Government funding on areas highly affected by rail line abandonment. The Minis ter probably isn't aware that the Transportation Division when I was Minis ter undertook probably one of the best studies I've ever seen on that.

Last year when I asked the former Minister as to the status of that, I believe he told me that it was being updated, current figures put in, etc. etc. Now the Minis ter is telling us that they've got this major breakthrough that they've got it int o their transportation agreement with the Federal Government and they're going to study it some more. My God, it's been studied to death - and this government pride s itself on being such skillful negotiators with their buddies in Ottawa. You've had your nu mbers. They were upda ted by your former Mini ster.

If there is ever a pre ssing need for road reconst ruction, it's in areas that have been affected by rail line abandonment with grain hauls increasing from five to six to seven miles to 15 , 20 and 30 miles. lt doesn't need any more study; it needs money and it needs money from the Federal Government. The Federal Government, sir, I submit is talking about western economic initi atives as a result of having the new Crow legislation passed. They're talking about bucks for Western Canada. That's an ideal target and you were equipped, in 1981, with good numb ers. I give my across-the-road budd y, Mr.

Uskiw, credit in probably making them better figures last year. You 656 had them in front of you for your negotiations with the feds and you didn't use them. All you've got is an agreement to study the study again and it's already been studied twice. I know that we've got to have something for people to do, but you're cutting people out of Planning and Design . Why don't you go back to Ottawa and take your shoe off and pound the table and say, I need money for rail line aband oned road reconstruction. lt's been studied for five years and they've got the pool of money. They admit that it's a necessity.

What was the need for more study? Why not action? MR. CHAIRMAN: The member is imitating something that happened in the United Nations many years ago. Mr. Minist er. HON. J. PLOHMAN: . I'm glad to see that the member is concerned about this matt er. He made his point and it's good to see that we have his support in any dealings that we have in negotiations with the Federal Government.

Of course, he would want to be sure that any policy that his federal coun terparts might put in place over the next few months as they approach a federal elec tion , that they would of course be gu arante eing that any Federal Conservative Government would be very willing to put in money and to assist provinces with this matter. I would suggest that's where- policy conferences - this honourable member should be banging his shoe on the table and making sure he gets results. In the meantime, failing that, and I would ask just before I comment on that further that the member had that study in his hands.

The transportation division had arrived at a figure of some $52 million, that I'd indicated earlier, as a result of that study. I would ask the member what kind of results he got with that, as a result of that study , and I didn't see any results.

Before we get into that, I would like to mention that what is important is that a formula has to be established in terms of these transferences of costs. lt's one thing to have the provincial study that says that there is, indeed, increased cost to the provincial infrastructure, to the highway system, because of increased truck haulage and use of the roads, but it is another thing to quan tify that in terms of a cost-sharing formula. That is why it is im por tant, we feel , an im portant development, a significant one, to have the Federal Government engaged in this joint proposal, joint study.

We will use, certain ly, the studies that were done by the province. We will want to use those as a basis for inf ormation, but we also have to arrive at a formula and it's important that we have the Federal Government involved in that. I would mention one other area. The Membe r for Pembina was chastising the government for cutting back expenditures on highways which, of course, isn't the case this year, there's an increase.

However, we have put in dollars in the area of branch lines to prevent the abandonment of branch lines. it's one thing to inc rease the road costs by building new roads in areas where branch lines have been abandoned. However, it is another to provide for the development of a low centre-of-gravity, lightweight rail car that can be used on branch lines, as well as on the Churchill line, and

Thu�y. 10 May, 1984 there will be - in areas where they have not been abandoned - it will prevent abandonment. I said that very clearly. The member is not listening because he doesn't like to hear this. He should also be aware that we're spending $20 million provincially , $20 milli on federal ly, on tha t endeavour. That will create jobs in this province and will more than compensate for the $25 million that he's been throwing around here with reckless abandon, that he says the province has taken out of the highways project to put into the Jobs Fund, which isn't the case in any way.

We are putting some dollars back in, and into the other areas of transportation. We have to look at it in a broader perspective and not just at highways. If we can prevent abandonments, because they will not have to be upgraded to the standards of hundr ed-tonne hopper cars so they could accommodate hundr ed-tonne hopper cars, that will be to our benefit, to the benefit of the rural people in Manitoba and it will prevent us from having to upgrade more roads and incur greater costs in tran sfers from the railways to our highway system. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I just want to remind the Mini ster that that highway study on the effects of rail line abandonment was ready approximately early 1981 to mid- 19 81. lt was del ivered to the Mi nister of Transportation in Ottawa. Has he met with the Minister in Ottawa to present the facts on rail line abandonment to the present Minister or the former Mini ster? His talk about low-centre-of-gravity hopper cars doesn't do anything for the areas in which rail line abandonment has already taken place. That's what we're talking about. it's not future abandonment we're talking about.

We're talking about abandonment that took place in the early '70s, the mid-70s. The Minister cannot avoid that issue with talk about a development in the future of low-centre-of-gravity hopper cars because you can't run them where the rails have been pulled up. That's the area that the roads need to be redeveloped in. I realize that's news to the Minis ter. He's agreeing, that's news. Amazing. Mr . Ch airman , I ju st want to simply close by encouraging the Minister to use all his persuasive powers to speed the study and get the results under way. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Without getting into more debate on this issue, I want the honourable member to kn ow. He asked me a question , have I met with the Federal Mini ster? I don't know if the Chairman heard that. I met with the Federal Minis ter in Ottawa as well as in Winn ipeg and we've discussed all of these issues and I think that we are moving in the right direction. I agree that we have to move as quickly as possible and we intend to. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(

a) and 3.(b)- pass. This relates to Planning and Desig n, Salaries and Other Expenditures. Resolution No. 97: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,702,800 for Planning and Design for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1985- pass. 657 Moving on, 4.(

a) and (b), relating to Maintenance - Highways and Airports, (

a) Maintenance Program, (

b) Mechanical Division. Maintenance Program - 4.(a), one at a time. The Memb er for Arthur. MR. D. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister when he has approved or is it his policy to have cut back the maintenance of our highway system to maintaining the roads at a less than what has been traditional for maintaining and grading of our roads. I know that in a lot of the roads that I spoke about earlier, particularly 256, that there had been a policy of his government to reduce the maint enance, to cut back on the expenditures spent on it. When did that policy come into place, Mr. Chairman? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The policy, I guess, that the member is referring to is not one that has officially come into place in the way that the honourable member has put it here. There has been an increase in the Maintenance Program this year by some $600,000 for highways. We have considered, as well, that damages to the road system as a result of spring breakup has not been as severe this year as it has been other years. That will reduce the costs that are required for repairs in that area.

We will have to make some minor reductions in some areas of maintenance to fit within the budget as outlined at $50,881 ,000, very small reductions in some areas. We have also looked at having the districts tender out, rather than allowing just the hiring of private individuals who assisted in this area in the past years on an hourly basis. We have asked them to tender that, and that has resulted in some cases in lower costs to the department.

This is one of the areas we want to have expanded, so that it is just a more efficient way of doing it rather than doing it just on an hourly basis, doing it by tend er, and that has resulted in some areas in significant reductions. As a matter of fact, 50 percent in a contract, for example, on the Tr ans-Canada Highway in tilling where that was done on an hourly basis by having tenders submitted, reduced the cost by 50 percent. That's just one example, and it is made up of small things like that that the honourable members think are fun ny. MR. J. DOWNEY: I didn't say it was funny. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: These all add up to very important main tenance of our system, and we are concerned with maintaining our road system as much as possible and upkeeping it. Certainly, in times when we cannot expand our highway system as much as we would like and engage in as much new construction as we would like, we would like to maintain what we've got. Outside of the reductions in roadside mowing, which may be required in some areas on some of the less travelled gravel roads, and in terms of gravel that would be provided, there are no serious reductions in any of the areas. MR. J. DOWNEY: What are the criteria, Mr.

Chairman? What did the department use as criteria as to the numbers of times per week that a drag goes up a road?

Thursct.y, 10 May, 1184 Is it the traffic? Is it the condition of the road? Is it the dollars and cents that are available? What are the current criteria? Because I know out of the Virden District Office, there were instructions, say, a month or two ago, went out from that department to reduce the num bers of times a week or a month because it was only once a week, I think, at that particular time that the drag went up and down 256. What are the criteria? Is it the money that's available, the condition of the road?

How do you determine the number of times a month or a week that a drag goes up a particular highway? I know there was a policy implementation of reducing the number of times per month that that drag went up there, and it was in a deplorable condition, Mr. Chairman. I would ask the Minister, what are the criteria? HON. J. PLOHMAN: First of all, Mr. Chairman, there has been no reduction in the dragging area of the budget. So that is not something that the honourable member knows then, it's something that's speculation; it is not a fact. There has not been a reduction in that area of the budget.

So I think the honourable member should check as to what priorities were being employed by the individual that he may have talked to. In terms of the schedule, it is based on the road conditions. There is a

schedule that had been set up many years ago, the standards of the roads that we are dealing with, and it has been in place for a number of years. That same

schedule is followed now as it has been in the past when the honourable member was a member of the government. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I am telling the Minister that there was a policy went out from the district office to reduce the num bers of times that the highway was dragged. He isn't giving me the reason for that, and I would certainly take from what he said tonight that we can expect the kind of policy to continue.

He is not assuring me that the roads will be maintained based on need, but on the dollars and cents that are available in the budget; that he is not going to shift more funds if a particular road needs it; that the road will continue to be deprived of the kind of maintenance that's needed. HON. J. PLOHMAN:: That's right. The

schedule is based on traffic flows, and, as I indicated, the condition of the road, other standards that are applied; those schedules have been in place for a number of years and they are being retained by the department. There has been no change in that. I have to get further details from the honourable member as to what dir ective he is referring to so that we could have that looked at. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I did make some requests of the department and I do believe they have increased the number of times that they have been maintained in the past while, because of a need for it.

I have one other area of concern, Mr. Chairman, and I want to place on the record my concerns today because of the amount of driving that I do back and forth to the constituency. That is the increased numbers of bottles and garbage that's being dumped along our highway systems in this province, cans, bottles and that type of thing. I think it is a situation which should 658 be dealt with.

I think there would be a possibility of room to implement a program of clean-up of our highway systems, whether it be through so-much-a mile payment to a 4-H Club or some kind of youth group to clean up the bottles and the cans to help add money to them. I know it has been done in Alberta at particular times to help clean up some of the highway sys tems. lt is getting to be a very, I would say, unattractive and dangerous situation.

I would think if a program like that were implemented, you would save a lot of money as far as your own maintenance and equipment, tires and that type of thing, but would encourage a lot more farmers to mow and to keep the grasses and the forages cleaned up along our highway system. I would seriously ur ge the Department of Highways and you to pick up an idea like that and try and encourage some clean-up, because it's just going to continue to get worse and I think it's to the point where it'is a disgrace. HON. J. PLOHMAN:: Yes, I share the honourable member's concerns in that area.

As I indicated earlier, I am amazed at times how much we think alike. I want the member to know that I am very concerned about the neglect and garhage along the highways is some thing that we will take very seriou sly, the suggestion that is made. The maintenance crews are responsible for that clean-up as it exists now and, if it isn't being done in the way that it should be, we would like to look at that further and perhaps follow up on the suggestion that the member was making. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a) - The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, has the graveling standard on provincial roads been reduced? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we will be looking at the lower travelled roads in terms of the amount of gravel that is put on them. I don't know whether you could call it a lowering of standards, but it is certainly one that we will have to look at in terms of those roads that are not used as freq uently, and ascertain whether the amount of gravel that's needed on those roads is as much as it has been in the past without jeopardizing any safety. We're going to reassess that and in some areas there will be some reductions. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Then the yards per mile standard, or whatever the figure was, is likely to be reduced this year to accommodate a $50.8 million maintenance budget? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I do n't think. from my und ersta nding, it's a general rule there will be a reduction in the standard but, as I said, individual situations will be considered where there may be some isolated conditions of reductions. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay, prettied up, however you can do it, there's going to be less gravel on some roads.

Now, is this a proper place to question the Minister on his rationalizing the second ary road system into two tiers and standards related to both of these to make our dollars go farther?

Thuraday, 10 May, 1984 HON. J. PLOHMAN: I think that if we wanted to look at that whole area and have some general discussion on it, it might be more appropriate in the area of construction, but I would n't have any difficulties if he wants to raise it at this particular time. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, let's talk about it now then. There's 8000 miles, roughly, of PR's and I assume those are the ones that you are talking about. Have you any idea of the split between your two tiers? What stage are you at in developing this program? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: This is a program that we are embarking on at this particular time. lt will be identification of the principal road systems that would be a Tier 1, for example, if you wanted to use the words Tier 1 and 2, would be at one standard, and then those other roads that would lead to the principal road system would be graded to a lesser standard, a secondary standard. There would really be, as we've ind icated with the wording that I used, the two-tier system, based on the rationalization of the road system in a particular area. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now, Mr.

Chairman, when the Minister ind icates a lesser standard of maintenance on the Toer 2 roads where are we starting from? Are we starting from present mainten ance standards being applied to Tier 2 roads, and an increase in maintenance standards being applied to Tier 1 roads, or are we applying current standards to Tier 1 and then reducing our mainten ance on Tier 2? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We would be looking at reviewing the standards as they apply now.

We're not talking - and I think this is why I was somewhat reluctant to discuss it here, as opposed to the construction program - as the honour able member is aware, there are thousands of miles of road estimated at a cost of about $1 billion of roads in our PR system that have to be upgraded. What we're looking at is the upgrading that's necessary on those roads. We would be upgrading them to two different standards based on how they fit into the grid in the particular area. Just like we have a PTH system, which is a major grid, we'll have a secondary system with major and minor portions of PR's.

The standards would be reviewed in terms of how they apply at this time, perhaps we would be looking at slightly narrower tops or narrower shoulders, not to quite the same standards as apply now to all PR roads. In other words, to make our dollars go further, as I indicated. MR. D. ORCHARD: Is it safe to assume that with this rationalized two-tier system that, once identified, you will unde rtake a different level of maint enanc e between the two tiers? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That is possible, but that is not the thrust of our policy or our efforts at this particular time.

The major thrust at this time would be in terms of the upgrading of those roads and the priorities that should be given them and the standards that should apply. MR. D. ORCH ARD: Mr . Chairman, the Min ister ind icated that hiring by book rate is being thrown open 659 to tendering. Are all aspects of the book rate being opened to tender or just certain areas? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The equipment rate, if that's what the honou rable member is referring to when he talks about book rates, that is not being discontinued. We will have to always do a lot of hiring of equipment at those book rates, as the member refers.

However, in certain areas where work, in maintenan ce primarily, and we 'r e talking about construct ion versus maintenance, as well, in maintenance areas where the specific job could be tendered, as opposed to hired, farmed out, on an hourly basis, we would like to see that happen in order to achieve lower rates or lower costs to the government and it has been shown that that is the case. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Is it fair to assume that, with this program the Minister's talking about, that departmental staff which are hired in the summer will not be hired, and that those jobs will be performed by a person who wishes to bid on it? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, we're not talking about in house personnel here in terms of hourly, we're talking about work that is hired out to the private sector on an hourly basis, as opposed to being done on a tender basis. There are certain kinds of maintenance jobs that are done by the private sector that can be tendered, as opposed to farmed out on an hourly basis.

That is the kind of thing that I was referring to, MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Minis ter, could you indic ate to me what you expect your cost escalations to be in traffic, gravel, asphalt for patching and the number of supplies that the mainten ance division uses. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Asphalt is, I believe, in the area of 10 percent increase this year. I don't exactly know what the gravel costs are.

I could find that out for the honourable memb er, but there have been some significant increases in this area, and there have been some decreases because of the tight market this year, this past year; it has assisted us, especially in the construction area where we have been able to get very good tender prices. MR. D. ORCHARD: I'm talking about maintenance material costs. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't have the costs for our maintenance materials but I gave the honourable member a figure of approximately 10 percent and that would probably be a reasonable figure for many of the materials that we required.

I would like to find out and to clarify if it's lower than that. I should point out to the member that we've had Base Course C - if the honourable member is interested, there's a decrease of 4.5 percent this year; Base Course A, 5 percent decrease; Bituminous Pavement, 2. 7 percent decrease. Those were decreases in last year's figures and as far as materials are concerned, we're anticipating an increase in asphalt prices this year. MR. D. ORCHARD: Could the Minister then indi cate to us the SMY reduction?

ThuradaJ, 10 MaJ, 1984 HON. J. PLOHMAN: The reduction is a total of 14 and that is in equivalent SYs, based on the possible recalling of seasonal emplo yees slightly later and laying off emplo yees at the end of the summ er, seas onal employees a little bit earlier. lt will not affect the numb er of people hired; it will affect some of the seasonal emp loyees in terms of the length of time that they're empl oyed by the department. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I guess it would be fair to say that a number of emp loyees who have worked a numb er of years have been on recall with the department , will have a lower income this year. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Those that are recalled later and terminated for the year earlier would be of course the lesser seniority ones and there would not be a great deal of effect there when we look at the fact that we're dealing with about 1 percent of the total employment in that area in terms of a reduction, so there will be some in terms of the ones with the lowest seniority. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Would the Minister agree that with asphalt costs going up about 10 percent this year, probably paint costs going up, etc., the Base Course C, Base Course A. that he's talking about, as far as I know, is generally applicable to construction tenders under the construction budget. He didn't know what the traffic gravel increase would be but we could say maybe it's break even.

But, given that he has got cost increases which may range from 5 to 10 percent for materials, he has to assume a flat wage package and, given that he's only got $600,000 to work on, I think the Min ister would have to agree that there is going to be less maintenance undertaken on Manit oba's highways this year for the second year in a row. HON. J. PLOHMAN: First of all, Mr.

Chairman, based on the information that I have, I couldn't agree with the figures that the honourable member is placing on the table here because, from the inf ormation I have, the information gravel, to date this year, the indications are that it is down in cost to us. Of course, that's very imp ortant when you balance that to the total materials that we require. Asphalt is up but, with mainten ance gravel being down, the overall increase would not be in the neighbourhood of 5 to 10 percent I wouldn't think. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, then how would the Minis ter like to just get those figures so we know what we're talking about, then I won't be spe culating, then he won't be speculat ing. Those figures have been available in past years to the Min ister a• Estimate time, what the estimate of increase in cost of the maintenance materials is. Let's stop the speculation and get the figures out here. HON. J. PLOH MAN: I don't know whether the honour able memb er did have all of that information in past years ... MR. D. ORCHARD: I'll get you a book and show you. HON. J. PLOHMAN: . . . as he is indicating, the previous year's figures.

What we have in preli mina ry 660 ind ications, in the very early part of the construction season and maintena nce of our roads, we found that the maintenance costs of maintenance gravel is down. In terms of what percentage, I haven't got that exact figure. I'm informed that it is down this year. I'm also informed, and I think this is significant, that the damage as a result of spring breakup this year is less than av�rage and normal and that, of course, will be very good news to the honourable member in terms of the requirements for asphalt patching and so on on our road system. MR. D.

ORCHARD: So then could we assume that the roads are going to be better maintained this year then? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I would say, Mr. Chairman, that there would n't be an appreciable difference in the maintenance overall. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Mini ster, to the Minis ter, we have a problem north of Portage la Prairie on public PR Road 249 and 227 leading from No. 240 west to where they meet onto No. 16 highway.

I brought this to the attention . of the department the last year or two. lt seems that the condition of the hig hway has deteriorated to the extent that it, with any wet weather conditions at all, becomes almost impassable. lt has been pointed out to me that the cause for this is the fact that the heavy truck traffic over the last year or two has pounded the highways that I have mentioned, 249 and 227, pounded them out and push them into the ditch actually with the heavy truck traffic hauling material across to No. 16 Highway.

As I said, it has been pointed out to me, in fact, I personally was caught on that road after some rainy conditions last year and it was, at that particular time, almost imp assible. I'm wondering, Mr. Min ister, if it cannot be taken into your consideration here, after I've saved you money this afternoon by asking you to withdraw a program on 242, I think it was. I'm wondering, Mr. Mini ster, if you can't make an effort to improve the conditions of these two short strips of road in that area?

As I've pointed out, the farmers, not only the farmers, there's a heavy lot of traffic going from east to west on there that is having plenty more trouble than they should be. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chai rman, I thank the honou rable mem ber for bringing that concern to my attention and I will certainly instruct the department to give those sections of road, 249 and 227, special attention as a result of the information that he's brought forward and perhaps some increased maintenance will at least make the road a little more passable and usable at this time until upgrading can be under taken on that section. MR. L.

HYDE: I appreciate what you're saying. I realize that money is not as plentiful as we would like them to be. But, if at all, that you could crown that road to a point where it'll run the water off, rather than retain it at the centre of the road, and put a gravel on there. lt will ease the problem for the time being. HON. J. PLOHMAN: As I have ind icated, we will unde rtake to review the condition of that road and

Thursday, 10 May, 1984 unde rtake some impr oved maintenance to enable the road to stand up for a short time yet until such time as it can be reconstructed. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, before we leave this, the Mi nister ind icated it's 1 percent of staff that is involved in this later hiring, earlier layoff. What's the total staff complement under this

section including part time and departmental, etc.? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The total SY's allocated to this

section is 1, 190, almost 1, 200. So, when I used the 1 percent figure it is slightly low, I guess, between 1 and 2 percent. I did not say that only 1 percent of the employees would be affected, I said that the result of the reductions in the length of time that they would be working would be 1 percent in terms of the total SY's. MR. D. ORCHARD: So how many will be affected? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The equivalent amount of time of 14, or between 1 and 2 percent will be the reduction in the total SY complement. lt may be that a much larger number than 1 percent will be affected slightly.

Ob viously a larger numb er would have to be affected by whatever the case may be, one or two weeks shorter, in their time that they're employed by the department and that adding up, from a number of employees, would add up to 14 SYs. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)- pass? MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, before you pass that, I just want to make an enquiry on Page 8 of your project

schedule for'84-85, the Hig hway P.R. 430, 12.5 miles, the second lift of construction gravel there, that's to the St. Ambroise Beach. No, I'm mixed up on that and I'm sorry. Okay, I pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)- pass. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the Minis ter is going to provide us with those estimates of maintenance component cost increases. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr . Chairman, I think the honourable member should specify exactly what he wants us to get for him. I had indicated to him that mai ntena nce gravel was down sligh tly from the preliminary ind ications . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: What's slightly? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: . . . this early in the construction season. it's very difficult to determine a trend as yet, other than to say that they're down in terms of exact percentages, because it's a very small part of the total needs that have been in the process of being acquired at this time. We could get that information within the next few weeks, in terms of an actual figure that we're coming out with. I will ende avour to provide that information to the honourable mem ber. 661 MR. CHAIRMAN: Moving along, the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCH ARD: Before we move along, Mr .

Chairman, the Minis ter is now telling us that when he put a figure of $50,88 1, 400 down for Maintenance, that the department didn't provide him with any estimates as to what the cost incr ease for the components required in the Maintenance Department were. He's indicating that he didn't tell him what the guesstimate and price increase, decrease was. That's simply not factual, Mr. Chairman. No department will propose the spending of almost $51 million without estimating as to what their cost increases are going to be. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member is finally making himself clear.

What he's asking for is an estimate of what the department . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: Exactly, that's always what I've asked you for. HON. J. PLOHMAN: . . . not what the actual increases are, in terms of experience. I've ind icated, in terms of experience, at this time that the maintenance gravel seems to be down, not up. However, the estimates of those figures, we can provide the honourable member and that was on the basis that the estimates were made. Obviously we have figures . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: Well then, would you share them with us please? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The honourable member did not ask for estimated figures. MR. CHAIRMAN: Settle down. We might as well take the next item . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: Would the Min ister kindly provide us with the estimates of what the increase in maintenance component costs are? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I indic ated on at least two, maybe three - you'd have to go back in Hansard already - to find out that, yes, we will get him that information, but I do not have it here right with me now. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reasonable enough. The Memb er for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, will the Mini ster have them here Mon day? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: There'll be no problem having them here Mond ay. MR. CHAIRMAN: The next item is 4.(

b) and 4.(b)(1), 4.(b)(2), 4.(b)(3), all relating to Mechanical Division, Salaries and Wages, Other Expen ditur es, Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations. MR. D. ORC HARD: Mr. Chairman, is there any equipment purchase in� here?

Thursday. 10 May, 1814 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, under Capital Assets, Acquisition of Physical Assets, would be the Section, 8.(e), where new equipment purchases would be allocated. MR. D. ORCHARD: Is the Minis ter satisfied that with a level expenditure on (b)(2) that the equipment will be properly maintained? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, is the honourable member referring to 4.(b)(2)? MR. D. ORCHARD: Th at is correct, Mr. Chairman. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I thought he was referring to (d). Yes, Mr . Chairman, we feel that the mechanical equipm ent requirements will be met under the existing budget. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Could the Mi nister give us the department's estimate on the increasing cost of repairs in this section, not the actual, just what the department estimated. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I'd like to congra tula te the honourable member for being able to put his questions properly. Now we'll be able to proceed, I think, a bit more quickly. In terms of Estimates, I'd have to get that information for the honourable member . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, would the Min ister make that information available on Monda y? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, we'd be pleased to provide the estimated percentage increases for parts that the department has made in preparation of these Estimates. MR. D. ORCHARD: Th ank you. Mr. Chairman, the Mini ster might be interested in reading the title of the book. lt says "Main Estimates," and any time one asks for clarification of costs, he assumes the Min ister is not so bloody thick-headed that he realizes that it's an estimate he's asking for. But unfortunately, we're not so blessed with a Minister that has that level of intelligence. MR. CHAIRMAN: No imputation here about personal character. MR. D.

ORCHARD: He knew what I was asking for, Sam. Can you pass that appropriation, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(

b) Mechanical Division, 4.(b)( 1) Salaries and Wages; 4.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures; 4.(b)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations- pass. We move on to Item 4.(c)( 1) , 4.(c)(2) and 4.(c)(3), Warehouse Stores, Sal aries and Wages, Other Expenditur es, Pu rchases, and 4.(c)

(4) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, is the saving and expenditure in (c)(2) accomplished by, I believe, the 662 final year of the implementation of the Comput erized Inventory Program? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, that is correct, Mr. Chairman. Th e system is in place and this is just to maintain and upkeep that system. There is an appropriation amount there, but it is a significant reduction from the previous year. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Has the department, with the inventory system, been able to reduce the value of inventory which was, if I recall correctly, one of the major saving areas to the department tha t was proposed to us when we adopted that program? Has that been achieved, by and large? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is the case in the Warehouse St.ores figure of 786,600 last year versus 474,700 this year, and the impact of that will be felt even more so over the next coming years, but that is reflected as a reduction of some $300,000 in Warehouse Stores in that line.

I just might make a comment that I wasn't here at the time, the honourable member may have been Minister at the time this program was initiated, but it would have been rather more significant if he had perhaps begun with this systems program in the mechanical area as to opposed to in this Warehouse Stores where the amount of total dollars is much greater and, therefore, a much greater efficiency could have been achieved. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I thank the Min ister for acquiring instant wisdom in the nine months he has been Minister, wisdom that wasn't available amongst this group of staff that are sitting behind me, because they didn't recommend doing anything other than put in the Warehouse Store package. So it is really encouraging to know that we have such bright, astute people that, after nine months, they can take on 35 years of experience and solve more problems in the department than they have been able to. Mr.

Chairman, the Minister indicated that the savings have been achieved through pur chases, and he mentions a $300,000 reduction. Could the Min ister explain how Purchases, in line (3), are up by $220,000, and that the reduction of some $400,000 or $300,000 is achieved primarily from a higher recovery from other appropriations, and that he didn't exactly have his information correct in his last answer? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would like to just take a moment to get some additional information on this. Mr.

Chairman, I think the honourable member will find that he compares the figu res in terms of the purchases last year and the recoveries this year, or issuance of parts would probably demonstrate the fact that the system is in place and the inventory is down. First of all, I might add that in (3) the $5,28 0,000, that increase there is largely due to increased costs in those parts. In addition to that, he might notice that last year the recoveries were lower than the pu rchases, in other words, there was overstocking taking place. In line (3), he will notice that the purch ase was

Thursday, 10 May, 1984 $5,060,000 versus a recovery of $4,860,000; and this year, while the purchases have increased, the recoveries have more than compensated for that by approximately $80,000, so we can begin to see the effects of the decrease in the invento ry. MR. D. ORCHARD: Which is what I indicated, Mr. Chairman. Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(c)( 1) , 4.(c)(2), 4.(c)(3) and 4.(c)

(4) Warehouse Stores, Salar ies and Wages, Other Expenditur es, Purchases, Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations-pa ss. 4.(d)( 1) , 4.(d)

(2) Northern Airports, Salaries and Wages, Other Expenditures -t he Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the Recoverable from Canada was on which airport? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I indicated Norway House. MR. D. ORCHARD: In the Other Expendit ures, I take it that includes costs of maintenance for those airports, is that correct? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, that is correct, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: And do the Minister's estimates of gravel cost, etc., etc., indicate that he will be able to, with $1 2,400 less money this year than last, be able to maintain the same standard of maintenance? HON.

J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we anticipate that to be the case. The decreases that are there are attributed largely to a reduction in travel costs with regional managers assuming greater responsibilities and the benefits of the previous year's insulation program that will result in lower heating costs in many of these facilities. MR. D. ORCHARD: So the Mi nister is not concerned that the safety of the users of these airports will be lessened from last year? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't think that it would be correct to characterize it as saying that I am not concerned.

I certainly would be concerned about the safety, but I do not feel that there will be a reduction in safety that can be attributed to any decrease in this appropriation. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, before we pass this item, where do we discuss construction of airports? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Under 8.(e)( 1) Other Projects. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(d)( 1) , 4.(d)

(2) Northern Airports, Salaries and Wages, Other Expenditures- pass. 4.(e)( 1) and 4.(e)

(2) Marine Services, Salaries and Wages - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to bring all my hockey fans up-to-date. Edmonton just beat the Islanders 1- 0. Fine job. 663 Mr. Chairman, on the Marine Services, are the user fees up on the ferry services this year? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I believe that none of the ferries have user fees at this time. They were eliminated last year. The increase in salaries is attributable to the fact that these are hourly people as opposed to dealing with the 27th pay period. MR. D.

ORCHARD: We still have the same number of ferries in the same locations, doing the same work, the same hours of operation? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, in terms of the numbers and so on and doing the same work and so on, that is the case. However, there was a rather longer season last year and that experience would account for the fact tha t we've allo cated more dol lars in the Other Expenditur es areas for this year. But it certainly was a good long season of operation last year. MR. D. ORCHARD: Any contemplation of expansion of the grain services? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, there's a possibility that we could be expanding there with the M.V . Charlie Sinclair , which is mothb alled at this particular time, formerly used at Cross Lake and we're looking with the study at this time as to where it could be utilized and that is a possibility for next year. MR. D. ORCHARD: Do any of those potential new locations require a dismantling and move of the ferry? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, that is a possibility and we have a consultant that is advising us on the possibilities and how it would best be achieved. That is the study that I was indicating is ongoing at this time. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Does tha t ferry have to be split if you move it? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I guess I would know about the same amount as the honourable member when it comes to splitting ferries or boats and moving them. I understand that it can be done. I haven't personally had the experience of doing it. MR. D. ORCHARD: Pity. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(e)( 1) and 4.(e)(2) relating to Marine Services Salaries and Wages and Other Expenditures pass; 4.(f)( 1) ; 4.(f)(2) relating to Winter Roads 100 percent Provincial, and Shareable - the Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHA RD: Which winter roads are now shareable, the ones in the north end into Indian Lake, etc.? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the lower section, of course, were the ones that were shareable previously and we've added the northern ones to Cross Lake and Oxford House, God's Lake Narrows, Split Lake - not the ones at the very top. But the ones at Cross Lake,

Thursday, 10 May, 1984 Oxford Ho use, God 's Lake Narr ows, have been approved for cost-sharing - a $300,000 inc rease in the recoverables from the Federal Government. MR. D. ORCHARD: So the only one you're 100 percent provincially funding now is the South Indian Lake winter road then, is it? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, two of them, Split Lake, York Landing and South Bay to South Indian Lake. MR. D. ORCHARD: Who's doing the contract ing? Are you still having nativ e construction companies do the contracting? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Yes, in the southern area, Norwyn Construction has undertaken that work for the last number of years, a native construction company and that has continued this past year. I believe a number of the others are all communi ty-owned undertakings. MR. D. ORCHARD: You simply negotiate with them. You don't have any formal tendering. it's still negotiating band by band. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, that is the case and this year we were of course fortunate enough to be able to hold our dollars at the same level as last year. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Did any departmental equipment have to be used to get the roads through this year, with the thaw in February? HON. J. PLOHMAN: There was a difficult season with the mild weather in February. There wasn't departmental equipment that was used but they did bring in some private contractors to assist us, but in Norwyn Construction section. MR. D. ORCHARD: But not at any cost in addition to the government. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: There was an incre ase in some costs that we had to allow there for Norwyn that, as I recall, was cost-shared with the Federal Government, in the neighbour hood of $64,000 total of approxima tely $32,000 each share because of the extra assistance that was required to be brought in to get that road open. so that we could achieve what we did in terms of 95 percent to 10 0 percent of the requirements for fuels and so on, that were required in those communit ies be brought in. MR. D. ORCHARD: Yo u indicate 95 percent to 10 0 percent.

Were there some things that some haul commodities, some freight comm odities, that the entire requirement was not delivered on the winter roads? The question I am asking is, does there have to be any supplemental transportation by air? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I guess when I used the figures 95 percent to 100 percent - there are always additional things that perhaps could be brough t in but we exceeded the haul by a significant amount over last 664 year in both cases, both the north and the southerly commun ities there was a significant incr ease in the haul - this year in particular the north one over last year. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 4.(f)( 1) ; 4.(f)

(2) Winter Roads - 100 percent Provincial, Shareable- pass; 4.( g)(1) ; 4.(g)(2) - Other Jur isdictions - Gross Expenditures, Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations - The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Could the Minister give us a breakdown of the Gross Expenditur es and what they are? My memory fails me. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Other Jurisdictions include Hydro, MTS, LGDs, munic ipalities, privat� parties and so on and it's credited to Gene ral Rev enue, and that expenditure in'83-'84. was $2,689,9 00.00. lt's projected for 198 4-'85 to be $2,335,000.00.

That's slightly less than the amount of work that we will be doing, and thus recovering from other jurisdictions. MR. D. ORCHARD: Is the reduction amongst Crown corps., or where is the main reduction? HON. J. PLOHMAN: lt varies from year to year, of course, the kinds of work that has to be done depending on the circums tances and situations, but we would anticipate that Manitoba Hydro would be the area where there would be the largest reduction. MR. D. ORCHARD: Is that because of the Jenpeg Road and that being in place? HON . J.

PLOHMAN: lt would depend on the requirements that they have in a particular year, and the requirements for construction of roads is down from previous years. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(g)(1} , 4.(g)(2). Other Jur isdictions, Gross Expenditures, Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations- pass. Resolution No. 98: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $60, 11 8,000 for Hi ghways and Transportation, Maintenance, Highways and Airports, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 85- pass. Item No. 5.(a}, 5.(b}, 5.(

c) Air/Radio Services, Salaries, Other Expenditures, Less: Recover able from Other Appropriations. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Cha irman, the Mini ster mer .ti ons in his introd uctory remark that fleet rati• 1alization is currently under way. Could the Minister inri1c ate what the fleet is now? I understand you added a Piper Chieftan, I think it was, I'm not familiar with the name of the plane, but for the Northern Court Service, primarily. How many planes have you got on staff and what does your rationalization inv olve? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, the total number of aircraft is 15 and there are three CL-2 15 water bombers; 1 Cessna Cita tion; Piper Navajo Chieftan, Piper Aztec, one of each of those; Cessna

Thur8day, 10 May, 1984 Skymaster, 1; de Havilland Otter, 2; Turbo Beavers, 5; and de Havilland Beaver, 1, for a total of 15 . Now, as I indicated in my introductory remarks, as the member referred to, we have a new manager in that area and one of his major undertakings will be to review the aircraft, as they exist now, in terms of the recoveries that we get from those aircraft and the utili zat ion of those aircraft, and then make reco mmendations to us as to what airc raft we believe should be di sposed of and what the additional requirements would be.

When he has comp leted that study he will be forwarding those recommendations to us and we will review them and, at that time, make the decision with the view to making those for next year's Estimates. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has three water bombers, 21 5's; he's purchased one more, I guess, and agreed to lease another one. The purch ase price I understand is right around $6 million. Is that correct? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I believe it is $6 million, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, on the lease end of it, I understand it's a 20-year lease.

Is part of the agreement that the government maintain the lease for the 20 years and keep that plane in the air for 20 years? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I will provide details of those arrangements, Mr. Chairman, as soon as I put them in perspective here. The agreement is that Manitoba would purchase one and lease the other on $1, on the condition, of course, tha t it does purchas ed. The airc raft that will be purchased by Canada is schedul ed for deliv ery in May 1986 and Manitoba will be responsible for operating costs estimated to be about $500,000. per year.

The aircraft to be purchased by Manitoba is scheduled for delivery in April 1988. Manitoba has agreed to a prepayment

schedule commencing 24 months prior to the deliv ery date based on a cost of $6. 1 million, this will be done over a number of years. Now, terms of the number of years that it has to be kept in the air, that the honourable member referred to, something like 20 years, I don't have any specific knowledge of that being the case at this time. I could probably get more information in terms of the length of that agreement. in terms of any requir ements of usage of it over a certain period of time, but that is not indicated in the information that I have at this time. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister has given us some very useful information. He's indicated that the Government of Canada is going to own the plane and he's got a dol lar-a-year lease. The offset on it is that Manitoba purchase another plane for $6. 1 million and start paying for it two years before we get it.

I think the most significant information the Mi nister has given us is two things; first of all, that it's about a half million dollars a year to operate that aircraft, the leased one that's coming at a dollar, but I would assume the Min ister was the one that ended up signing that lease agreement unless the authorities changed. 665 I know I signed for the purchase of a couple of them back in'80 and'81.

I find it difficult to understand how the Minister would not know how long they have to keep a plane operative at a cost estimated to be $500,000 per year and he doesn't know whether they have to keep it operative for one year, two years or three years. The reason I toss out the figure of 20 years is because his colleague, the Mi nister of Natural Resources, indicated that it was a 20-year term on the lease aircraft.

Now, maybe I'm expecting too much but I would think the Minister whose department negotiated this lease and the purcha se would at least have known how long he was committing the taxpayers of Manitoba to .5 million of expense per year. I find it almo st unbel ievable that the Min ister wouldn't know that because I'll ask him a simple question. When the fifth plane comes in 19 88 and is delivered, can the Minister then take his plane, that he's got leased for $1 .00 per year and leave it sit on the ground, transfer his crew to the plane he buys and will be delivered in 1988 and use only four planes?

Is that in the cont ract with the Government of Canada? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the primary lead department in negotiating the lease was the Department of Natural Resources who will be utilizing the water bomber primarily. In terms of the details, I could get the details. lt has been some time since I signed that and I have to admit that I don't know the exact length of the lease and I don't expect that the honourable member would have had that information with him either. I don't have it with me at this time and I can get that information for the honourable member.

I can say that if the honourable member is suggesting that the costs of $1 .00 are exorbitant he could certainly say so. I think it's a good deal for Manitoba and we would certainly be able to utilize all of those water bombers at certain times to protect our forest reserves in Manitoba and I don't know what he's suggesting by referring to the $500,000 cost to operate. Naturally there's a cost to operate and that was one of the conditions we agreed on when we entered into this contra ct with the Federal Government. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, you kno w the Minister, when he's got himself a little bit of a difficulty or a memory lapse or whatever, he makes stupid statements. I never mentioned one thing about $1 .00 a year. I asked him about $500,000 per year and I asked him how long he was required to keep a leased airc raft operational at $500,000 a year. He said it was a long time ago when he signed that Order-in-Council. Well, I have one here that says the purchase was passed December 21, 1984. 1t was Order-in-Council 14 07. - (Interject ion) - well, now, it must be 1983 then. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Do you want to see it? Good. In 14 08 is the other one which deals with the lease. Now if those were passed in December, is the Minister telling me that he doesn't remember how long he committed the taxpa ye1 s of Manitoba to .5 million per

Thursday, 10 May, 1984 year cost? Does that kind of money mean nothing to the Min ister, that he forgets, doesn't know, can't remember? MR. CHAIRMAN: Can the Min ister obtain th at information? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I've ind icated that I would be pleased to get more details for the honourable member if he wishes to have that. As I indi cated, the first plane is scheduled for delivery in 19 86, so what the member is talking about in terms of expen ditur es will not be incurr ed until at least after that date. So we're talking at least ... MR. D._ ORCHARD: So that made it easier to forget. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: . . . down the road and again, if the honourable member feels that those costs are exorbitant, I didn't make just reference to the $1 .00, I made reference to the $500,000 which is an average operational cost for that kind of a plane and the activities that it would engage in in the protection of our forests. If he feels it is somehow a bad deal for Manitoba, he should say so. I don't think it is. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I just want the Mini ster before he gets himself deeper into the glue. lt's bad enough having a memory tha t do es n't remember how long he's going to spend $500,000 per year on the people of Manitoba; but his colleague, the Min ister of Na tu ral Resources, in response to questioning this week, indicated the department had said that they could certainly use one more to bring the fleet up to four; but five, well that was maybe different; but seeing as how they could get it for $1 .00 a year, they took it.

Maybe they didn't really completely need it, but because they were saving the capital costs, I assume they made the decision to go for it. That would make the next decision of .5 million operating cost a year very important to anybody who has any fiscal respon sibility. So I look forward to finding out what kind of a deal this Min ister signed on behalf of the people of Manitoba and has forgotten. Now I would ask the Min ister, and I may not be asking something that's within his com petence because apparently the Natural Resources Department did the negotiating.

But did the Minister have his department investigate the advisability of keeping the three existing water bombers' staff operational in house and take the Federal Government offer and farm it out to one of the private aircraft firms in Winnip eg and simply have those aircraft available on a demand usage at X number of dollars and avoid the fixed costs of crew, and maintenance crew, that are involved in owning and having those planes in house? Was that cost an alysis done by the department's air division? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, as I indicated the problem, if it is that that the honourable member is referring to, won't occur until after May, 1986 and there can be the staffing requirements that are required to operate the fleet as a whole, involving the three water bombers that we already own in addition to this one that will come on line in 1986 and another in 1988, 666 there's plenty of time to work out the details of staffing for the operation of these water bombers and that, of course, will be done in the most efficient way possible.

In addition to that, I might mention that the operating costs for our fleet that we currently maintain that we recover from other departments when they're being used, is somewhere in the neighbourhood of 45 percent which is of course of the cost, so it much less than the private sector would be able to offer any of these services. So we'd have to look at that as well in terms of whether we could get a better deal by having the private firm operate that plane for us and lease or pay a certain cost or fee for them operating it.

That is certainly something that could be considered and will undoubtedly be looked at before we get to the point of having to actually get involved in the operation, since it is at least two years down the road. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the Mini ster's answ er. lt seems as if - and I don't want to put words in his mouth - he is thinking that maybe that is something they should take a look at, because it is something that we were going to take a look at.

I don't think you have to have an ideological set of blinders on to say, well, if it in volves the private sector and they're going to make a profit, we shouldn't do it. If it's an efficient way to own two more fire protection aircraft, then it should be investigated and you should have that kind of a cost analysis done so you can make an in formed choice on how to handle th ose two additional aircraft. I say that, based on the comments of the Minis ter of Natural Resources who said his department had found that there was a definite need for one additional water bomber, but not necessarily two additional ones.

If the offer - and I don't think the Federal Government really cares who takes or where the $1 lease aircraft goes as long as they've sold the one. The whole idea is to create employment in Canadair in Montreal. A final question on that, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister ind icate whether the agreement that was struck, I believe in'BO or'8 1, whenever we bought the third one, I think it was, I forget now; but anyway we had an agreement with Canadair that certain portions of the tail section, I think it was, was to be manu factured in Winnipeg and I don't even know the name of the aircraft manufactu rer.

I can't remember who it was. The idea was that there was an initial set that were going to be done for a given run of aircraft and then if the production went up at Canadair then there would be another run-through and we'd get those. Now is that manufacturing offset still in place with this pu rchase of an additional aircraft? HOI'·. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I cannot give the enct details of tha t but I kno w that du ring thE negotiations with the Federal Government on this issue, the Economic Development Department was very much 1nvolved in ensuring that we got as much benefit to Manitoba in the production of these planes as possible and any other spin- off benefits that there could be. That was a very imp ortant consid eration of our government in undertaking those discussions. Exactly what was finally agreed upon in terms of the benefits that Manitoba will get on that, I would have

Thursday, 10 May, 1984 to provide those details at a later time. But I can tell the member that we were very conscious of the need to do that and considered that in our discussions. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, could the Minister - I don't imagine he has it here now - but could he provide us with an hour s-flown-per-plane last year? The department keeps those and if he could just table one, that would be fine. I have no further questions on this section, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(a), 5.(

b) and 5.(

c) relating to Air/ Radio Services - Salaries, Other Expenditures, Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations- pass. Resolution No. 99: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,4 23,900 for Highways and Transportation, Air/Radio Services for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1985- pass. The next item is Item 6. 6.(aX 1) , 6.(aX2l relating to Motor Vehicle Branch - Management Services: Salaries and Other Expenditures. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, there is a lumping of SMYs in (a), (

b) and (

c) on the Min ister's handout sheet. MR. CHAIRMAN: Do we want to consider all this together? MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, my question will have to because that's the way the information was given to me. MR. CHAIRMAN: We will take them all together. 6.(a)(1), 6.(a)(2), 6.(b)( 1) , 6.(bX2), 6.(c)(1) , 6.(c)

(2) Ma nagement Services: Salaries and Other Expenditures: (b), relating to Driver Licencing and Vehicle Registration: Salaries and Other Expenditures; (

c) Safety: Salaries and Other Expenditures and there's a (

d) too. We might as well take it. MR. D. ORCHARD: No, we won't take that one, Mr. Chairman. That one's the good one. When the Minister indicates that there's 1.1 1 SMY increase overall, (a), (

b) and (c), are there any reductions in (a), (

b) or (

c) and additions in the other or has one of (a), (

b) or (

c) received 1.11 more SMYs? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, there's an overall increase of 1.11, as the member has referred. This is attributable to the fourth vehicle inspection unit that 1w as established this year. There's a requirement for 13 .1 2 SYs for that fourth vehicle inspection unit and this was accomplished by only increasing by 1. 11. There were 2.01 SYs that were reduced in this area. One regular position in the Driver Licencing

section was vacant and elimina ted and 1.01 SYs were removed that were term positions and used to support additional staffing requirements as required. Those 1. 01 term SYs were reduced and, as I indicated, the one vacant in the Driver Licencing section: so both were vacant of course, so we end up with a net of 1.1 SY increase. 667 MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister has incorrectly described the additional vehicle inspection unit as "establishing" it - it's restoring it. lt was established in 1980 or'8 1, was de-established last year and is now being re-established, preferably restored at the request, I might say, of a number of members in his backbench and government benches last year who were shocked that the department was cutting safety spending. Mr. Chairman, when we're into Ma nagement Services, Other Expenditures are dropped down significantly. Is that because of the licence plates or what is the reason for Other Expenditu res dropping? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, that is the reallocation of admin istrative costs to the Manitoba Pu blic Insurance Corporation, so that presently the Driver Licencing and Vehicle Registration and insurance are distributed on a formula basis, 45 percent by MPIC and 55 percent by the Motor Vehicle Branch, on a ratio basis.

I suppose that rather than having this ratio, which is not accurately reflected, the transactions that are conducted by each of the departments in the Ma nitoba Public Insurance Corporation and the Motor Vehicle Branch, that they be possibly reallocated on the basis of actual transactions made by each department, which would more accurately reflect the administration of those two areas. That will result, and I am sure the honour able member will be pleased to see that, in a reduction. it's unfortunate that he was not able to take some moves in this area when he was Minister.

You see a reduction here and transfers to the Manitoba Pub lic Ins urance Cor poration where they more appropriately belong, and we estimate them to be in the neighbourhood of $2.7 million, $2.8 million. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, what is the cost sharing now, then? What's the portion MPIC will be picking up and what's the portion that the Motor Vehicle Branch will be picking up? HON. J. PLOHMAN: lt is on a 45-55 ratio as I mentioned. Currently the Motor Vehicle Branch would pick up approxim ately $8,430,700 under the proposed scheme, which would more accurately reflect the administration of these areas.

The Motor Vehicle Branch would be paying $5,638,7 00 and that's where the reduction of $2,792,0 00 occurs. In terms of the costs that the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation picks up, we would have to do a little calculation here. The $8,430,000 reflects 55 percent of those costs; so 45 percent would obviously be something less than the $8 million that the Motor Vehicle Branch is cur rently picking up. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the Minister is wise enough to know that it was 45-55. I am merely asking him is it 8-20 now; is it 75-25; is it 60-40? What's the percentage breakdown now? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: lt won't be broken down on a ratio like that. lt will reflect accurately the transactions that take place by each of the departments, and those exact figures have to be determined by the Department

Thursday, 10 May, 1884 of Finance. However, \hey are estimated at this time to be in the neighbour hood of $2.8 million, a reduction for the Motor Vehicle Branch. If we want to set that up on a ratio basis, that could be worked out in percentage terms, but that's not the basis for sharing of costs in the future. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, th e Min ister demons trated his newness in the House when he indi cated, I believe, that when I was Mini ster I should have done something.

If he only was smart enough to maybe listen instead of talk, he would have known that the 45-55 was established by our administration and I believe I was Min ister when it happened. What it did was, in terms of staff negotiations with Mr. Peter Dygala at the time representing Motor Vehicle Branch, and with the former general mana ger of MP IC, they established a breakdown of 45-55, which I believe replaced a 20-80 sharing, where 20 percent of the cost was picked up by MPIC and 80 percent was picked up by Motor Vehicle Branch. Mr.

Chairman, it's in teresting that this Mini ster is so proud of this, because I am surprised that they got this spy, a former ML A for St.

Johns, Saul Cherniack, because when we brought in what was considered on the criterion that they negotiated to be an equitable sharing of 45-55, there was the greatest amount of screaming and crying and howl ing from the then opposition members in the New Democratic Party, that we were raping Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, that we were just causing untold additional costs that weren't justified, that weren't warranted, that we were going to throw the costs of insurance up because of this terrible cost formula that we brought in. The argument always was, Mr.

Chairman, that M PlC's rates were lower because they were being subsid ized from the Motor Vehicle Branch, and we rectified that Now it's in tere sting that we now have a New Democratic Government who, two-and-a-half short years ago, screamed and hollered about bringing in equitable sharing and charging their beloved Autopac more, now coming up with a system where they are going to take $2.8 million additional out of MPIC according to some formula that they say is reasonable � and legitimate, presuma bly. - (I nterjection) - That's right, the Minister cannot tell us what the formula is, or what the percentage breakdown or what the cost sharing is going to be, but it's going to be $2.8 million.

I find it absolutely intriguing to see the change of heart in the New Democratic Party from the days of Saul Cherniack in opposition bemoaning an equitable sharing that we brought in to the stage today where the New Democratic Government all of a sudden is so desperate for cash and for money and to try to save dollars and reduce their deficit, that now they are foisting additional costs on MPIC. They are the ones that are raping Autopac and the vehicle insurers of Manitoba. What a difference a little bit of financial trouble makes to these people.

I supp ose it boils down to what my colleague, the MLA for Fort Garry said in his speech back about 10 days ago - that famous line from the movie - "Who are these guys?" These New Democrats are not the New Democrats that defended Autopac to the hilt, that said we were going to ruin Autopac by bringing in a 45-55 sharing, 668 and now they are pulling $2.8 million to keep the operating deficit of the government down to what they call acceptable levels while transferring the costs to the driving public of Manitoba.

This is some gang of tr icksters, shifters and characters that can change like chameleons with the times. lt's absolutely incredible, Mr. Chairman, and it boils down to what the MLA for Fort Garry said, is these people are without principle, they don't stand behind one principle for Autopac, whether they're in government or opposition. Their principl es can be bent like silly putty. If they decide they have to show in their Budg et that they're operating deficit is down they'll go to the Crown corps, Autopac, they'll pull $2.8 million out to bring down the operating deficit.

They will fabricate any reason possible to justify it. But I only ask the Min ister of Highways now, in his newness to this House, to go back and read some of the famous moaning and crying speeches of Saul Cherniack and the criticism we took for bringing in the cost-sharing formula which now this Min ister has abandoned and is taking $2.8 million more out of the driving public of Manitoba. I find these people almost laughable and almost a joke. it's incredible, Mr. Chairman. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I'd be pleased to add ress some of the issues that were raised by the member if he'd care to listen.

Naturally when MPIC was first established in was in its infancy and there was a need to make sure that the administrative costs were as low as possible to establish the public insurance corporation, to get it off the ground. That was a natural thing to have happen, however, when Mr. Chern iack would have been referring to a concern that he had about the sharing of administrative costs at that time, that the honourable member is referring to when he was in government, he has to remember that this should be put in perspective.

There was a Government of the Day in this province dedicated to the destruction of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corpora tion. lt was their stated intention and so there was much reason to be suspicious of that government and what they were doing.

However our government, our party is the one who established a very successful public corporation for insur ance in this province and, of course, everyone is fully aware that it wouldn't be us that would want to every dismantle a company like this, like his government and his leader at that time was set on doing, until it was proven otherwise, so the concerns were very real. The concerns were very real and let the honourable member say it's a lie and let them defend the public corporation; let them defend Autopac at this time, I'd be glad to hear it However I will say to them . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

The Mini ster has the floor, the member has had his turn. Point of order. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. Would you ask the Min ister to withd raw his unpar liamentary word, and I'm not going to repeat it because it's unpar liamentary and I don't like using unpa rliamentary words.

Thursday, 10 May, 1984 MR. CHAIRMAN: I have heard at least two words that the member had used which I ignored. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now the Chairman can ignore when the Min ister is using unparliamentary language, is that what you're telling us, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: No, I'm not ignoring it. MR. D. ORCHARD: Then will you ask him to withd raw unparliament ary language please? MR. CHAIRMAN: Which one? MR. D. ORCHARD: At the risk of being unparliamentary he said, it was a lie. Is that unparliamen tary, Mr. Chairman? Would you ask him to withd raw it please? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The word "lie" appears on both lists, both parliamentary and unparliament ary, it depends on the context. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman. on the point of order, will you check Hansard and the context with which the Minister used "lie" when Hans ard comes out and then make a decision as to whether it was parliamentary or not? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Point of order - the Honourable Min ister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek was the one that made reference to a lie saying that what I was saying was a lie.

That was my reference and I certainly didn't use it in the context of calling anybody else a liar. I want to finish my remarks on this issue very briefly. The honour able member. as I said, Mr. Cherniack and the opposition of the day have every reason to be concerned about the intentions of the prev ious government with regard to Autopac and there's no doubt about that. In addition, I want to point out that we are not proposing th at MPIC in any way be subsidized by the Motor Vehicle Branch.

That is not what is being proposed here, only that each branch of government, M PlC and the Motor Vehicle Branch, pick up their costs that are incurred in admin istration for the transactions that they undertake. That is all that is being proposed here and if the honorable member is suggesting, in his comments. that we are asking the MP IC to subsidize the Motor Vehicle Branch then he should mak that statement on the record; that is not the case. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I will quote from the Minister's opening statement. lt says, "in addition, MPIC will be requir ed to absorb a greater share of admini stration costs ." Not my words, his. Mr. Chairman, can the Minister indicate whether, when this new cost sharing which pulls $2.8 million more out of Autopac, will that influence the insurance rates of the Manitoba driving public? 669 HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't have any reason to believe that they will effect the insurance rates, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister is saying that this $2.8 million of additional costs that MPIC is going to pay is not going to impact on the licence and insurance rates to Manitoba motorists offered by Autopac. HON. J. PL OHMAN: Mr . Chairman, I think the honourable member is aware that Autopac is in a healthy financial situation at this time and that will not be a situation that will effect negatively the insurance rates. I might mention, as I have indicated previous ly, that MPJC is just being asked to assume those administrative costs that are legitima tely theirs.

So, ther efore, if the honourable member is suggesting that the Motor Vehicle Branch should be subsidizing the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation forever then that's fine, that's his statement. We feel that they should be equally distributed at this time when MPIC is financially able to do that. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay. Mr. Chairman, I think the Minister finally got down to it. He said, Autopac's healthy and, in fact, the government is not healthy so, ther efore, this is the time to pull the money out of Autopac and put it into an unhealthy government. That's what the Minister just said. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I did not say that. On a point of order, I did not say that. MR. CHAIRMAN: For clarification on the record, the unparliamentary word was not used by the Minister, it was used by the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. D. ORCHARD: Oh, Mr. Chairman, you're saying that the Minister did not use that word on the record. Are you saying that, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: You can check the record. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, please do. A MEMBER: No he said you can. MR. D. ORCHARD: No, he will, he's the Chairman, that's what we're paying him for. Mr.

Chairman, the Minister has got down to really the nuts and bolts of it, Autopac's healt hy. He's trying to tell us it's not going to have any impact on the rates. If it doesn't have any impact on the rates then this extra $2.8 million is going to reduce the profits, the net income. Is that right? Would that be a fair assumption? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr . Chairman, I'd ask the honourable member to repeat that suggestion. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I didn't make a suggestion to the Minister, I was asking him a question. He has a little difficulty discerning between the two sometimes.

The Minister said that this $2.8 million, in

Thursday, 10 May, 1984 additional cost to Autupac, will not effect the insurance rates in Manitoba because Autopac is healthy . I ask him, will it lower Autopac's profit? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman . A MEMBER: I thought we were discussing Hig hways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, we are not discussing the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation here, and that's what he's asking me to speculate on. What we are proposing is tha t the Ma nitoba Public Insurance Corporation pick up its share of admini strative costs, that's all. That is an acce ptable method of any company operating.

So, I would say to the honourable member that it's not my place to comment on what it will do to the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. Certainly the rates are the lowest in Canada. People have benefited from the Public Insurance Corporation here in Manitoba over the last 10 or 12 years and certainly they will continue to benefit with the lowest rates in Canada. I'm sure that will be the case. If at some time there need to be in creases by the corporation, they will make those decisions. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, if I follow the Minister's answer, it isn't going to impact on insurance fees charged to Manitoba motorists. lt isn't going to impact on the net income. This sounds so good it can't be true. Could the Minister find not only $2.8 million but about $480 million that he can pluck out of the air like this that won't affect anybody, anywhere in Manitoba and elimi nate the deficit, because this is a money tree. He can just go along and pick $2.8 million out of Autopac. - (I nterje ction) - my frien d, we are discussing high ways.

We're discussing highways from the standpoint that this boy and your government is taking money out of Autopac and he says it's not going to have any impact. it's interesting that this Minister now has found a money tree called Autopac. This is incredible. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. There are certain rules of relevancy that we have to follow. Under Rule 30 of our rules: "S peeches shall be direct to the question under consideration . . .

"Under Rule 64.(2), "S peeches in the Commit tee of the Whole House must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under discussions." Under Rule 39, the Chairman of the commi ttee may call the attention of the committee to the conduct of the member who persists in irrelevance or repetition, may direct h1m to discontinue his speech. These are some of the rules. Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, as relevant as I could be to the subject at this time with the comments of the honou rable member, I know that it is very annoying for him and his colleagues to see a healthy Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, something that they, of course, would never have predicted when it was formed here in Manitoba and that does irk them and bother them, but it has been successful and that is the case. 1 would just ask the honourable member - and he'll say, well, I'm the one that's supposed to answer the 670 questions - is he suggesting that the Motor Vehicle Branch and the government, Department of High ways, should be subsidizing the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation at this point?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The question should be directed to the Minister, not the Mi nister asking the question. lt's a rhetorical question, I suppose. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, in response to the rhetorical question, I just find that this Mi nister and this government are frauds because here they are, they're taking an entire reverse position from three years ago where . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Point of order being raised. If the member would like the other members of the committee to retract their words he might as well provide example by retra cting his own word. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I will if it's unparliament ary, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: lt is. MR. D. ORCHARD: Is it not on both lists, Mr. Chairman? 1t wasn't me that mentioned two lists. Mfl. CHAIRMAN: it's on both lists. lt depends on the context. MR. D. ORCHARD: You're right, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: So as long as we stay civilized and orderly and define the context. The Memb er for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Right. Thank you. I just find the actions of this government to be very very strange. Autopac is healthy , the government's not healthy. They pull $2.8 million out of it.

Next year, if the government still isn't healt hy, maybe they'll pull $5 million out of Autopac. Who knows? They might pull the entire $8.5 million of admin istrative costs. Autopac has now become this gove rnment's money tree that bails them out of problems. - (Interje ction) - Your money tree. Saul Cherniak will be proud. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, let's pass this then, if you want to finish tonight. MR. D. ORCHARD: Are you going to pass (a )(1) and (2)? MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(a) ( 1 ), 6. (a)(2) rela ting to Management Services: Motor Vehicle Branch - Salaries and Other Expenditures- pass; 6.(b)( 1) , 6.(b)

(2) Driver Licencing and Vehicle Registration: Salaries and Other Expenditu res- pass. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister indicates there is no change in staf fing, if I remember correct ly, in the Driver Licencing. But there

lbursdsy, 10 May, 1884 have been a numb er of people from the Steinbach area, from Winnipeg, that are complaining about lineup s for driver testing. Has the Min ister received any complaints? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I have on occasion received some complaints in that regard as to the fact that people have felt they've had to wait in line for driver testing and as I und erstand the situation, there are times when, in order to make most efficient use of staff, that appointments are taken.

There are also periods when additional appointments are made or when people can come in to take tests that aren't on appointment because some people do not show up at appointment time or are finished sooner than would have been anticip ated and so others are scheduled, and that, at times, does lead to some bottlenecks in that area. However, it has been an area that we have expressed concern about when the complaints were received and I believe that it is functioning relatively smoothly at this time.

There can always be improvements made, but it is not on the basis of staff reduction, but a desire to utilize staff in the most efficient way possible. MR. D. ORCHARD: If we get complaints, the advice we can give to people wanting a driver test is to make an appointment, and is that system in place in Winnipeg as well as in all of the driver testing areas in rural Manitoba? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes , Mr. Chairman, that is the case. MR. D. ORCHARD: So, once they make the appointment for 10 in the morning or whatever, it's their job to be ther e, and is tha t appointment guaranteed?

There is no way that they're going to come there and find out that they're out of luck? MR. CHAIRMAN: There are certain th ings that are not within the control of the Minis ter to gu arantee . Mr. Minis ter. . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, that certainly would be the intention that appointments would be kept promptly by both parties.

Of course, we all realize that whenever appointments are made, as the honourable member would realize or even at this time when he makes appointments, sometimes meetings run longer than he had planned. lt happens in other public offices in areas of appointments for professionals, doctors, dentists, lawyers and so on. Sometimes it doesn't happen that the appointment is kept right on time. We would hope that that would be the case and make every effort to make that the case. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I am not expecting the Minis ter to sign in blood an agreement that if an appointment at 10:00 o'clock is made that it's going to always be kept , because there are extenuating circumstances, but that is the route to take throughout all of Manitoba now. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is the system that we would like to promote. 671 MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(b)( 1) . MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, are driver licence fees going up this year? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Not licence fees, no. MR. D. ORCHARD: Are the costs of driver licences going up? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Not licences or licence fees.

There's no increase in that. MR. D. ORCHARD: Did the minis ter indi cate how we go from $3, 19 9,000 in drivers licences in the fiscal year ending'84 up to $4,686,200 fiscal'85, a 46.5 percent increase in revenue if there's no increase in the fees? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I would just like to ask the honourable member to the

section that he is referring to, so that I can make reference to it. MR. D. ORCHARD: Detailed estimate of revenue of the Province of Manitoba for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1985, Page 4, Highways and Transportation, (b). HON. J. PLOHMAN: I would like to, Mr. Chairman, look• at this further to give a definitive answer, however, the one area is that the drivers licences were equalized last year. The female licences were increased to be equal to male licences.

They'r e all treated equally and I know that a number of our members are very adamant that be the case, and we felt it was reasonable and it was the case. That did result in some significant increase in revenue which was not reflected completely in the previous year's income, but will be reflected in a full year this year. MR. D. ORCHARD: Unless there are no other questidns, that one could pass, Mr. Chairman. MR. CH AIRMAN: 6.(b)( 1) -p ass, 6. ( b)(2)- pass. Relating to Driver Licencing and Vehicle Registration, Salaries and Other Expenditures. 6.(c)( 1), 6.(c)(2), Safety, Salaries and Other Expenditures- pass.

MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, under the Driver Education Program, the Minis ter has indicated in his statement that its cost will be substantially funded by M PlC. Is this where th e

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-3-19b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 3rd hansardpdf 19b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d9ab7ba9bcd130799c6dd50bfccf502babf12431

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