Manitoba Hansard — 5 December 1988 (Sitting 91A, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-91a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

�-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) REVISED 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the · authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 91A -1:30 p.m., MO NDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1988. ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOI3 A LEGISLATIVE ASSE:MBLY Thirty�Fou rth Legi$latur e Members , Co nstituencies and Pol itical Affil iation NAME AI,.C OcK, Reg AN�US,John ASHTON, Steve BURRELL, ParkeF CARR, J11mes CARSTAIRS, Sharon CHA RLE S, Gwen CHEEMA, �ulzar C HORNQPV SKI, William CONNERY, Edward Hon. COWAN, Jay CUMIII INGS, Glen, Hon. DE RKACH, Leonard, Hon. DOE R, Gcuy DOWNEY, James Hon. DRIED�ER , Albert, Hon. DRIEDGER, Herold, L. DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. E;DWARDS , Paul E NNS , H11 rry ERN ST. Jim, Hon. EVAN$, Laurie li!VANS, '-eo"ard FILMON, Gary, Hon. FI NDI.AY, Glen Hon.

GAIJDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold GRAY, Avis HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAI(, Harry HARPER, Elijah HE'-WER, Edward R. HEMPHILL, Mauree!l I(OZAI(, Richard, J. '-AII!IO UREUX, Kevin, M. MALOWAY, Jim MANDRAKE , Ed MANNES$, Clayton, Hoo. McC RAE, Jami!S Hon. MINENI(O, Mark MI TCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ltfEUFELD, Harold, Hon. OLESON, Charlott e Hon. ORCHARD, Donald Hoo. PANKRATZ, Helmut PATTER SON, Allan PENNER, Jack, Hon. PLOHMAN, John PRAZitfiK, Darren ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROCH, Gilles ROSE, Bob STORIE, Jerry TAVLOR, Harold URUSKI, Bill WASVLVCIA-LEIS, Judy VEO,Iva CONSTITUI;NCY Osborn�a St.

Norbert Thomps<;m Swan River Fort Rouge River Heights Selkirk Kildonan Burrows Portage la Prairie Churchill Ste. Rose du Lac Robli n-Russell Concordia Arthur Emf1rson Niakwa Ai el St. James LakE)side Cllarleswood Fort Garry Brr;�ndon East Tuxedo Virden St. Boniface Minnedosa E!li ce Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Gimli Logan Tn:mscona lnkster Elmwood Assiniboia Morris Brandon West Seven Oaks River East Rossmere Gladstone Pembina La Verendrye Radisson Rhineland Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Turtle Mountain Springfield St. Vital Flin Flon Wolseley lnterlake St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, December 5, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, may I direct the attention of Honourable Members to the public gallery, where we have from the Bonneycastle School, twenty one Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. Munro. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Fort Garry (Mr. Laurie Evans) . We also have with us today from the Daniel McIntyre Collegiate, seventeen Grade 10 students under the direction of Mr. Rudy Rohs.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Ellice (Ms. Gray) . We also have with us today from Ashern Central School, thirty Grade 11 students under the direction of Mr. Moroz. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Interlake (Mr. Uruski) . On behalf of all Honourable Members, we welcome you all here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MIC Advisory Role Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition) : My question is for the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mrs . Mitchelson) . For years, Mr.

Speaker, the Manitoba lntercultural Council has been an advisory body to Government on ethnocultural matters but that has only been one aspect of their position. They have also been an advocacy group on behalf of the needs f its members and a group which allocates Lotteries revenues to its communities . On Friday evening, the Minister of Culture, Heritage , and Recreation (Mrs . Mitchelson) indicated that she believed the council's role should be primarily advisory . My question to the Minister , is it now her policy that MIC should be limited to an advisory role with Government? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): I thank the Leader of the Opposition , for that question. I want to indicate , when I was invited to come and address MIC, that was the message that came across quite clearly bec ause that is the reason MIC was set up. It was set up in legislation as an advisory body. There has been no decision made on whether MIC will remain an advisory, an advocacy and'a funding body.

I do want to indicate quite clearly ttiat rather than maki ng it a political issue - and I would like to just ask the crit ic for the New Democratic Party whether -~ she was invited on Saturday to their general meeting, their business meeting . I know that I was not invited as the Minister responsible, and I question why the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs . Carstairs) would want to be there and make it a political day jnstead of having a group and an organization that had their business meeting and having the Leader of the Opposition be present at that meeting . *

(1335) Mrs. Carstairs: Unlike the Minister , I was sufficiently interested to sit and listen only to their discussions · and did not participate in any way, Mr. Speal5er, but just sat and listened. Motions Presented Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): On Saturday, the council passed a series of motions. One of those motions was the call for the election of a chairperson from among their own members. Another was the hiring of the executive secretary by the board, and the third was the legal authority to distribute Lotteries revenues.

Can the Minister tell the House today, will she support the motions passed, I might add, unanimously by the members of the lntercultural Council? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): I think, when those decisions are made by this Government , we will certainly let the Opposition and MIC know what those decisions are. Chairperson Appointment Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With another question to the same Minister , three names have been put forward by MIC to be the chairperson of this lntercultural Council.

Will the Minister today tell the House if she will choose the new chairperson from that list of three submitted by MIC? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): I want to indicate that as of this date, this morning , no one from MIC has been in touch with me to indicate who those three names are, and it is unfortunate that the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs . Carstairs) has those names long before the Government of the Day that has to make those decisions has those names, so I look forward to MIC coming forward to me with those names .

I have not seen them so I have absolutely no idea_. who they are . When I g et that information , thoie decisions will be made. Executive Secretary Hiring Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition~ with a new question . 3737

Monday, December 5, 19Qjl Mrs. Sharo n Carstai rs (Leader of the Opposition): With a new question to the Minister of Culture , Heritage and Recreation (Mrs . Mitchelson), in this spirit of openness with which this Government came tv office , we assumed that they were interested in Ii. dialogue . We also assumed they were interested in an arm's length relationship with agencies such as the Manitoba lntercultural Council. The Minister stated on Friday evening that a public competition will be held for the position of executive secretary of MIC.

Can the Minister tell us today who will conduct the interviews and the selection , and will MIC be represented on this panel? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): I think I clearly indicated to MIC that MIC would be a part of that process . I have been very open and honest and I want to indicate to the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs . Carstairs), when I did meet with MIC on Friday evening , I spoke in great length about the audit that was done.

The Leader of the Opposition may have her ideas on what she would like to see happen at MIC but quite clearly I indicated that MIC in the past - and it was pointed out by the Provincial Auditor, I might add , who spent some $31 ,000, a little over $31,000 going around the province holding public hearings on the Task Force on Multiculturalism .

The Government - and it was the forme r Government that commissioned that Task Force on Multiculturalism-spent over $100,000 on that report to get information from the communities on development of a multicultural policy, and quite clearly it was the former Government that commissioned that report, not MIC. The Auditor questioned , and with some justification, why they would spend some $31,000 , so I asked the Leader of the Opposition if that is the kind of- Mr. Speaker: Order, please ; order, please . *

(1340) Ta!~ Force Resignation M~s. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): . With a supplementary question , the Minister speaks about- the task force . Can the Minister tell the House today why Dr. Tsai, the former chairperson of MIC resig _ned from the task force and refused to allow his name to be associated with the task force 's report? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): I received a letter from Dr. Tsai giving his reasons for why he resigned . He clearly resigned after the fact .

After he had met in all the meetings and had the final report presented to him , he decided at that time, for whatever his reasons were , that he did . not want to have his name associated with that task · force report . So maybe the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs . Carstairs) has more information that she has not . expounded on. If she wants to give us her reasons why she thinks Dr. Tsai resigned , maybe she could provide that information . Mrs. Carstairs: Can the Minister table today in the House the letter from Dr.

Tsai indicating his reasons for not wanting to have his name :associated with this task force report, .and has she had discussions with Dr. Tsai as to his reasons so that she can perhaps find out his concerns why the task force report did not reflect the delega1ions made to it? Mrs. Mitchelson : Mr. Speaker, I have absolutely no problem tabling that letter in the Legislature . I will find it and I will bring it forward and table it in this House . But I want to clearly indicate too that when I spoke to MIC on Friday evening, I asked them quite clearly why Dr.

Tsai, who is a not a member of MIC any longer, was allowed to send this letter out to all members of MIC with public funds, with taxpayers ' money. That letter was sent out by a body that is funded by the Government, by the taxpayers of Manitoba to advise Government. There was a letter included by a member who was not even a member of MIC at taxpayer s' expense going out to the community. So, Mr. Speaker , 1 I have no problem tabling that letter. Rafferty-Alameda Project U.S. Corps of Engineers Report Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Penner) . On October 12, the Minister indicated that he was hopeful and wanted the U.S. Corps of Engineers Environmental Impact Study to includ e downstream effect on Manitoba . The Army Corps of Eng ine ers Report is completed, it is ready for publication. Can the Minister confirm that there has been no downstream effect in terms of Manitoba in that report from the Army Corps of Engineers? Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): I have not seen the Army Corps of Engineers Report, so I simply do not know what it is in it. As soon as we get it ... . Manitoba's Interests Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition) : Mr. Speaker , perhaps the Premier (Mr. Filmon) can answer the second question then . The Premier ot Saskatchewan , Mr. Devine, has written the Governor of North Dakota dealing with Saskatchewan 's concern s abou t the Rafferty-Alameda Proj ect and says categorically that we will proceed notwithstanding any concern that North Dakota may have because we have the requisite approvals to proceed in Canada in terms of that dam .

Has the Premier written a similar letter outlinin g Manitoba 's concerns to the State of North Dakota, Governor Sinner, and has he followed up on any other concern on the downs tream effect of the water qualit y, ' especially considering what is going to come out of the Army Corps of Engineers Report? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): First and foremost, we have consistently maintained that our role is to deal with the federal Government vis-a-vis The Boundary Waters Treaty Act of 1909 and the jurisdiction that it has over the downstream flows that come to us not 3738

Monday, December 5, 1988 from Saskatchewan but from North Dakota. Our jurisdiction is between ourselves and North Dakota with the federal Government's being responsible for that Boundary Waters Treaty Act . We consistently have said that we are out to protect Manitoba 's interest to ensure that we maintain the quality and the quantity of the flows downstream that come to us from North Dakota . That is where our jurisdiction is. That is where we have continued to meet and consistently put forward Manitoba 's position saying that we must protect our quality and quantity of water downstream as it flows out of North Dakota into Manitoba . •

(1345) International Agreement Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): The Member's own technical report clearly demonstrates that the issue of water quantity is greatly ) jeopardized by this project ,

Section 7, Page 7. My question to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) , in the Minot News on November 21, it is quoted by the reporters dealing with this issue that the international agreement affecting the Rafferty-Alameda Dam will be signed shortly . Can the First Minister confirm (

a) that there is an agreement that is going to be signed, and can he guarantee us that there will be an environmental impact study in terms of the downstream effect on the Rafferty Alameda Dam as part of that agreement and not the wishy-washy monitoring committee that the Minister of Natural Resources has talked about in this province? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, you know , !he monitoring committee is precisely the approach !hat the NOP Government took in place vis-a-vis Limestone .

They constructed a more than $1.5 billion major project involving flows of 75,000 -80,000 cubic feet per second on the Nelson River without an· environmental impact study, and their answer to it was to have a monitoring of the flows after the construction of the project. That is precisely the approach they took on a project of a magnitude that might be 100 times the magnitude of what we are dealing with in Rafferty and Alameda , and they felt that was a good approach . Now he is suggesting that it is not the kind of approach , that somebody should have.

The fact of the matter is that we will contir, ue to press strongly vis-a-is the agreement between Canada and the U.S. for assurance that our flows will be protected in terms of quality and quantity . That is where we will put our efforts, because that is where they belong and that is where they have the most opporttmity for success. Federal Environmental Study Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): We know how desperate the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of this province is to protect his Tory .friends when he starts talking about something totally unrelated to the Rafferty-Alameda Dam .

My question to the First Minister, will he give Manitobans the guarantee that he will not recommend the signing of an international agreement that provides for a wishy-washy monitoring body and secondly, Mr. Speaker, will he give Manitobans the guarantee , his persona l guarantee, that if the U.S.

Corps of Engineers do not provide for water quality assessment downstream to the Manitoba -North Dakota border , that he will write the federal Minister of Environment, the new federal Minister when they are sworn in, and demand that before .any other action take place a federal environmental impact study be guaranteed in this province, as tias always been required in terms of this project? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): I repeat , this is the Leader of the Party that did not think it was necessary to have an environmental impact assessment review -for . a project that is 100 times the size onhe Rafferty and Alameda. They did not think it was important enough to introduce that kind of project on to the Nelson River with environmental impact assess_rnents . They are the same people who were prepared to give a licence for the development of a potash mine without any environmental impact assessment review . That is the same Party. Talk about hypocricy!

That is what we-are dealing with , with this kind of question . We will assure the people of Manitoba that our efforts will be there to ensure that we get at least the same minimum average flows that we have been entitled to under previous agreements and that the quality of water flows downstream to Manitoba will not be adversely affected . Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): I was tempted to say Tweedledum and Tweedledurhber , but- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! An Honourable Member: This is only Monday! Federal Assurances Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): My question is for the Minister of the Environment (Mr.

Connery) . Since July this year, the Liberals have been attempting to get the Filmon administration to take seriously the potential for negative impacts from the Rafferty-Alameda on Manitoba . As a result of the expeditial approval process, the degree to which this Government is prepared to stonewall on an issue as complex and serious as this, while disheartening and disturbing , is nonetheless educational. It illustrates only too clearly how Conservatives are only too eager to get on the environmental buzzword bandwagon . We hear " sustainable development, environmental concerns ." .

We hear about " round tables " but the telling truth is we have got lethargy , lip-service and lies. Mr. Speak•~~ "Order, please; order, please. · Mr. Taylor: My question to the Minister is, given .Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would ask the Honourable Member for Wolesley (Mr. Taylor) to withdraw the unparliamentary remarks he has just made . 3739

Monday, December 5, 1988 Mr. Taylor: I would just point out to the Speaker that it was not addressed to any particula r Member . Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Mr. Taylor: I will submit the terms - -.Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Unequivocally withdraw the remarks . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please . I am having difficulty in hearing the Honourable Member for Wolseley. Mr. Taylor: I withdrew the word " lies," and said a major deviation from the truth . Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Member for Wolseley . Mr.

Taylor: My question to the Minister is, given the non-compliance of Environment Canada with its own legislation and a breach of a promise to conduct an environmental impact assessment, and the Grasslands Park fix , just what form of reassurance did t his Government get from the feds and when will he be tabling that here in this House? Let us see that assurance . Let us see what it looks like . *

(1350) Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker , the line of questioning from the Liberal Party is certainly somewhat unrealistic.

Given the fact that we have continually stood in this House and told ·the Members opposite exactly the form of assurances that we have sought from the federal Government, the forms of assurances that we have been given by the federal Government , we have tabled letters in this House indicating that We will have the quality assurances that have been given us under the 1909 agreement , given ttie assurances that we will have the quantity under the 1959 agreement - I give up. We have indicated continually where our negotiating posit ion has been and _what we are asking for.

We are asking for and we have negotiated con stantly towards an ongoing monitoring of the water quality in the Souris River. I simply cannot understand what oth er assurances the Honourable Membe r of the LiQeral Party opposite wants, because we have been given all the assurances that our interests in the Rafferty -Alameda project will be maintained by the federal Government : FEARO Consultations Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker , I will agai n · attempt to question the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Connery) .

It has been clearly pointed out that the Federal Environment Assessment Review Office was never even questioned about Rafferty-Alameda . What assurances do Manitobans have as to the environmental soundness of this project , giv en that the Federal Environment Assessment Review Office was never even questioned , let a'ione requested to produce a study of any sort , an analysis of the facts?

I would like to see what it is that we have, other than this crazy little blue book that raises more questions than answers , that we have an EIS out in Saskatchewan that is totally beyond any comprehension, and that the EPA in the U.S. has asked North Dakota to redo theirs . What assurance s, and I would ask it of the Minister of the Environmen t (Mr. Connery) if he would please .. . . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order . Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr.

Speaker , again we have received assurances from the federal Government in writing that Manitoba 's interests in quality and quantity will be maintained . I am sorry, I do not know how much plainer I can say that for the Honourable Member opposite to be able to understand. If there is anything else that he would indicate to me that we should be doing or that I should be saying in a more simple language than that , I would like to hear from him . Funding Request Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Wolseley,. with a final supplementary question . Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker , an earlier question referred to Governor Sinner 's letter that he received from the Premier of Saskatchewan . Some Honourable Members : Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Taylor: The quest ion i s, is this Minister of the Environment (Mr. Conn ery) familiar with this COD lett er th at has been sent sayin g that all environmen tal concerns have been answered and, given that they have, would you please be so good as to send on your money or is h e going to save his comment s for the Senate hearings here in Winnip eg and we will get the full scoop then? *

(1355) Hon. Jack Penner (Minist er of Natura l Resources): Again , Mr. Speaker, I am not sure what the Honou rable Member opposite is getting at. He i s now indica ting that who is supposed to send what money to whom? I am not sure, because it is my unde rstand ing that the federal Government has no financial int erest in t he Rafferty -Alameda Dam. There are no federal lands involved in the Rafferty-Alamed a proje ct so, for that reason , I am simply not sure of wher e t he Honourable Member opposite is coming from in his lin e of questioning or what he is trying to get at. 3740

Monday, December 5, 1988 Sewer Explosion Compensation Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker , my question is for th_e Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme) . A sad story of Mrs . Bishop who is a 76- year-old senior citizen . She is one of my constituents who has suffered and continues to suffer as a result of a gas explosion in my constituency on August 24. She suffers from facial burns, burns to both her hands , has some loss of movement in her both hands and , above all , she continues to suffer from mental stress due to the failure on the part of the City of Winnipeg to compensate for her claim . Mrs .

Bishop also suffered the problem of financial loss - her loss of clothing, her loss of groceries , and the expense of home help . Mr. Speaker , there is also an outstanding bill of $150 .00. My question is to the Minister of Urban Affairs . The City of Winnipeg has stated that the injuries were due to illegal dumping for which the city has no respons ibility. Could t he Minister tell us who is responsible for ~ compensating Mrs. Bishop 's loss, if not the City of f Winnipeg? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I will ask for the up-to-date report on this Incident from the City of Winnipeg . Investigation Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan) : Mr. Speake r, on August 25, Mrs . Bishop said in the Winnipeg Free Press that, no, t hey will do nothing. Bishop said the city will only talk cheap talk-and it could have been her death , Mr. Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Environment (Mr. Connery). Was there any investigation of this incident and , if so, what are the results? Could he provide the results to this House today? • Hon.

Edward Connery (Minister of the Environment and Workplace Safety and Health) : I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I was reading some notes and I thought he was address ing the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) . Could he repea t the question ? Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, in view of Mrs . Bishop's Injuries - my question is to the Minister of Environment , (Mr. Connery) - was there any investigation of this Incident and, if so, can he report that investigation to this House tod ay? If there was no investigation, why was the investigation not done? Mr. Connery: I will take that question as notice . Mr. Cheem a: Mr.

Speaker, this again is a sad story, because none of them know what is happening in the City of Winnipeg , and none of them know what is• happening - Mr. Speaker: Order, please ; orde r, ple ase . The Honourable Minister of Urban Affair ~, on a point of order. Hon. Gerald Ducharmti (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speake r, he got up on a question that he pr_flsented to the Minister of Urban Affairs. I told him I had asked for a copy of the report . He now is broadly saying that no one understands his problem with the City of Winnipeg . I would ask him to withdraw that comment. Mr. Speaker: Order, please .

The Honourable Ministe r does not have a point of order. Safety Measures Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker , my final supplementary , again to the Minister of Environment (Mr. Connery) , can the Minister of Environment now tell us what measures are in place to ensure that this type of disaster , which causes suffering and grief to people like Mrs . Bishop , will not occur in the City_ of Winnipeg and other places also in Manitoba? Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of the ·E:"nvironment and Workplace Safety and Health):" Mr. Speaker, once again , I will say I will take that question as notice .

Ruttan Mine - Leaf Rapids Fire Investigation Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): Mr. Speaker , I have just been informed by a number of constituents that the entire underground shift at the Leaf Rapids Mine , Ruttan Mine in Leaf Rapids , are refusing to work because of a toxic waste fire which was started in the dump last week . I would ask the Minister of the Environmen t and the Min ister responsible for Workplace Safety and Health (Mr.

Connery) if he can. provide a status report to the House as to the extent of this fire , the extent of the injury which has been done to the health of a number of workers there who have reported to the hospital , and what action his department will be tak ing to ensure ·that those workers are able to exercise their right to refuse to undertake work which they believe to be unsafe or unhealthy without fear of any reprisal or penalty . Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of the Environment and Workplace Safety and Health) : Mr. Speaker , indeed that is a serious concern that we have at Ruttan .

They were using some rock that had been used from the open pit and they were crushing it and using it to create roads in the mine area. There was an overhang because of the frozen nature . There are beams and papers and so forth that were very close to that particular overhang and the company thought that if they lit the material on fire that it would thaw the overhang and fall down so that there would not be a hazard . What they did not realize is that, and they should have, there are changes in wind direction that happen on a r_egular basis.

The wind changed and the smoke blew into the intake for the fresh air ventilation for the mine . Some _. of the miners did get some smoke inhalation .-,As a precaution, they were taken to the hospital. ' Now the department is investigating it but , to my knowledge , there has been no injury to worker s. They did have some smoke inhalation . The morning crew refused to go on until they were assured that th is would 3741

Monday, December 5, 1988 not happen again, Mr. Speaker, and I do not blame them . •

(1400) Mr. Cowan: Well, the fact is that what is burning there is a dump that has been used since the mine was started 1n _the early 1970's and contained within that dump are all the waste and the hazardous materials that are deposited in such a dump in close proximity to a mine . That is what is on fire now. The workers there want to know what hazards exist in that fire, what materials they are being subjected to, what hazards they may be subjected to because of that fire .

I would ask the Minister if he is prepared to send the necessary personnel immediately by Government jet to Leaf Rapids to find out what exactly is on fire in that dump, what hazards the workers are subjected to under those certain wind conditions? -(Interjection)- I am sorry? The First Minister (Mr. Filmon) said something from his seat , Mr. Speaker. I am sorry I missed it. Perhaps if he would like to stand and put that comment on the record . Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Would the Honourable Member kindly place his question now? Mr.

Cowan: Yes, I was in the midst of a question when I was interrupted by the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). I would ask him to pay attention to this because this is a very serious matter for my constituents and those in the area . Worker Safety Mr.

Jay Cowan (Churchill): I would ask the Minister if he is prepared to immediately have the Government jet take the necessary Workplace Safety and Health and Environmental people up to Leaf Rapids so they can immediately investigate the substances that are in tha1 fire and provide some information to the workers who are quite concerned as to what hazards they would be subjected to if they had to work under those conditions? Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of the Environment 11nd Workplace Safety and Health): Again , what total hypocrisy . That Member for Churchill (Mr.

Cowan) was at one time the°' Mfnister of Environment. The material in those dumps did not accumulate in the last six months : They have been accumulating for years. They did absolutely n_othing about it. I have asked my department to investigate the fire. I did not ask them to only investigate the fire at Ruttan and the -dump at Ruttan . I have asked them to investfgate every dump site and every mine around so that we know what is in there . Mr. Speaker, they are going up there. I have asked them to investigate in case there is some chemical in there so that we know what is .in it.

Maybe he was talking to my employees this morning because that is exactly what we discussed . Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Churchill, with a final supplementary question. Mr. Cowan: I can assure the Minister that I have talked to a great number of people this morning about this , including those people who are responsible for ' protecting the health of the workers . ,.. Fire Investigation Mr.

Jay Cowan (Churchill): I asked the Minister, because he has not yet given any direction to my knowledge or to the knowledge of any of those workers or any other individuals in the community to have someone · go up there and check that fire out immediately to determine what is burning at the present time . If he will not undertake that activity immediately , will he not, at this point in time, confirm that those workers have the right to refuse to do unsafe work without any fear of reprisal or penalty? I would like him to do that in this House so that there is no doubt whatsoever.

There is that concern in the community right now. Can he also ask his staff to determine how they intend to put that fire out, which I am told could possibly burn for a month or more? Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of the Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): Once again, Mr. Speaker, that direction has been given . The direction to investigate the fire and all of the dumps up North has been given in spite of the previous Government's inability and unwillingness to do anything. We are doing it. Work Refusal Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of the Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): Mr.

Speaker, I said in the first question I do not blame the workers for not going into an unhealthy workplace . They have the right to stay out . They have the right and we will see that they are protected . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please ; order, please. Liquor Control Board Right of Appeal Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): My question is for the Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae) . From time to time, • residents of a community will come into conflict with the operator of a liquor establishment in many , communities . Such disputes are dealt with by a licensing board.

If the operator is dissatisfied with the ruling of the licensing board , they may appeal it to the Liquor Control Board. Mr. Speaker, the residents do not have such a right of appeal. My question for the Attorney-General , knowing that he has been approached by one community in particular, what action has he taken on ' their behalf? Hon. James Mccrae (Attorney-General): Perhaps the Honourable Member would like to let me know what group he is referring to? Mr. Lamoureux: That would be the Weston Residents' Association located in my constituency, in answer to the question . 3742

Monday, December 5, 1988 Mr. Mccrae: Regarding the Honourable Member's question, I will take notice of the question . The Honourable Member knows though, I suggest that the new Crown Accountability Act, Bill No. 37, will also have a part to play in this whole process. Weston Residents' Association Meeting Attorney-General Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): This community residents group is very frustrated. They too do not have the right of appeal. Was the Attorney-General (Mr. Mccrae) prepared to meet with the Weston Residents' Association to discuss their concerns and see what he can do about it? Hon.

James Mccrae (Attorney-General): Mr. Speaker , I have told the Honourable Member I will take notice of his question, and I will take his question as representation as well . Liquor Control Act Amendments Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): Mr. Speaker , when can we expect the Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae) to come forth with some type of amendments to the legislation, that we can see the rights of the residents at least at equal with the rights of business? Hon. James Mccrae (Attorney-General): The Honourable Member 's question is a representation . Refugees Claim ProceHing Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan) : Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security (Mrs. Oleson) . I think we all know that it is clear from the backlog of thousands of people who are claiming refugee status in Canada that something has to be done to improve the processing of the claims . We currently have a very elaborate process that has a number of hearings and a number of appeals that allow people to stay in Canada for several years before their case is dealt with . Clearly, the procedure has to be improved and speeded up . Has this Government been consulted by the federal Government?

Were there any discussions? Did they talk to them about the changes in the procedure? Did they support and agree with those changes, and how many Manitobans do they think will be affected? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security): Mr. Speaker, I will have to take the specifics of that question as notice , as of course the Member realizes it is a federal responsibility . Immigration ultimately -is a decision of the federal Government , but I will take the question as notice . Ms. Hemphill: Mr.

Speaker, we are ·quite aware that it is a federal responsibility but we are also aware that when major changes like that are taking place , they usually have consultation and discussions with the provincial Governments to both inform them and get reaction from them about how they feel about · both policy and procedural changes. Fair Hearings Ms.

Maureen Hemphill (Logan): While the Minister is taking that question as notice, would she also ensure to her and their Government's satisfaction that in speeding up what could be 70,000 applications that may be in place by January that there will be a very fair process and a fair hearing for everybody so that people will not be sent back possibly to dangerous situations because they are speeding up -the process so quickly that they cannot possibly do justice to them? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of E-mployment Services and Economic Security): · Mr.

Speaker, we do not want people to suffer because of the length of time of the process and we all, of course, want the process to be fair. As I said before, I will take the question as notice. Ms. Hemphill: Mr.

Speaker, one final supplementary, I am wondering while the Minister is looking into this situation, one that has thousands of people actually in Manitoba and in Canada very worried, very frightened, very concerned because they do not know what the changes are going to be and how they are going to affect them, would the Minister, after she receives the information, make some effort to provide to make contact with the refugee community in Manitoba to give them information about what the process will be, and what steps the federal Government and the Government of Manitoba is going to take to make sure that nobody is sent back who should not be sent back?

Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Speaker, the Member should realize, as it is a federal responsibility, it would be up to the federal Government to provide information to people . But I will look into what I can do to expedite this matter for those people because I do realize that they do have a great many concerns. •

(1410) Lead Exposure Standards Stop-Work Order Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of the Environmenf and Workplace Safety and Health)): Mr. Speaker, there were two questions asked on November 30 that I did not have the detail to. One was to a company that aske,d· for an exemption for the level of lead in the blood. Of course, the answer-he asked if there were any stop-work orders or any improvement . There were no stop-work orders . There were seven improvement orders and they have basically been completed. We have had excellent cooperation with the company . 3743

Monday, December 5, 1988 Emission Levels Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of the Environmen t and Workplace Safety and Health): The otber 'was to do with lead in the soil. The question was, has the department had any tests of the emissions and the soil Jevels surrounding the company that is in a residential area or close to a residential area? Mr. Speaker, lead in air routinely measured at four sites in Winnipeg to identify urban air quality , levels of lead in air measured at these sites has been well below provincial guidelines and standards since 1979 .

Three lead-in-air surveys have been conducted within the vicinity of Winnipeg's secondary lead smelters . Daily sampling took place June , July and August of 1979. Some exceedences (sic) were found at Canada Metal , fewer at North West Smelting & Refining, and no exceedences were found at Canadian Bronze. Between 1980 and 1984, regular samplings at four compass directions were carried on at three smelters in the city. Exceedences around Canada Metal were fairly frequent until June of 1981, thereafter only the occasional exceedence, improvement due to enhanced maintenance at the plant .

In the vicinity of North West Smelting & Refining , fewer exceedences were recorded , and at Canada Bronze only three exceedences during this time frame . Monitoring was discontinued because of the improvements and acceptability of air quality . Stack sampling was carried out as recently as 1986 at locations at lead emissions . Results have been consistently low, well within limits . Compan ies are now obligated by law to do sampling every three years , the responsiblity for hiring and paying for testing- Mr. Speaker: Order, please ; order , please. It seems like it is a very detailed answer.

I would ask the Hqnourable Minister if he would not mind just tabling the document . Dennison Mines ~otash Development • Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): My question is for the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) . The · Dennison Miries Corporation apparently decided not to proceed with the potash development along with the Canamax , Manitoba Government , i n western Manitoba. My question simply for the Minister of Mines is, will he please tell this Hpuse what additional percentages of th~ Dennison deal did the Government of Manitoba · have to unqerwrite in order to get this project unde r way?' Hon.

Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines) : Mr. Speaker, the Member for Niakwa (Mr. Herold Driedger) indicated that Dennison no longer wishes to pFoceed. There was never any discussion with Dennison with respect to the amount that the Manitoba Government would have to underwrite . We were , of course, disappointed that Dennison chose not to proceed , but that is of their own choosing and we are continuing to look for other developers .

Reso~rce Development Future Projects Mr. rierold Driedger (Niakwa) : That is refreshing, 1989 was to be th e year of decision regard ing the development of a potash mine in Manitoba . The year is now nearly over. Can Man itobans expect a decision whi ch will benefi t resource development in western Manitob a in our province this year ? Did I s ay 1 989? An Honourable Member : Yes, you did. Mr. Herold Driedger: I suppose you are going to attribute that to the Liberal computer, too . Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): I did understand the Member's question and I took it as 1988 .

We are continuing, as I said, to look for developers in the project . The Manitoba Government , since we took office in any event , never had any intent ion of being the lead in the development , and that has been said in this House over and over again. We are still of that mind. However, we are doing two things . We are look ing for markets and we are looking for developers - actually three things, we are looking also for investors .

If we can put a consortium together , we wilf do that at our first opportunity but, at this poin t in time , we are in the process of looking for developer s and looking for investors . Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired . WRITTEN QUESTIONS Mr.

Storie - - On what date did the Minister of Education receive a copy of the Department of Education - Adult and Continuing Education report "Progress in Literacy "? - On what date did the Minister meet with the staff who produced the study to go over th e recommendations of the study , the research completed , the status of current literacy programs , an participants? - List the rationale that the Minister has used for refusing to increase funding to each of the following literacy , organiz ations, despite the fact that there has been an increased federal commitment to literacy training : The Pas Friendship Centre Birch River School Brandon Friendship Centre Inc.

Manitoba Metis Federation S. W. , St. Lazare Journeys Literacy Program Thompson Reading Aides Counci l Salvation Army Winnipeg Adult Education Centre Camperville Adult Education · Committee Dauphin Friendsh ip Centre The Selkirk School Division No. 11 Man itoba Melis Federation S. E. Region, Powerview Pluri-Elles (Man .) Inc. 8 ,okenhead Educational Authority, Scanterbury Rossbrook House. 3744

Monday, December 5, 1988 - List the organizations that requested the Minister to establish a Task Force on Literacy after the Department had just completed an unpublished study of literacy . - List the literacy workers and organizations who have praised the decision to spend $300,000 on a Task Force on Literacy rather ttian increasing spending on literacy programs in this province. - List the anticipated percentage of the $300 ,000 that will be spent on salaries and expenses of the participants of the Task Force and itemize budgeted salary for each participant. - List the amount of new funding for literacy training that the Minister or his Department has received from the Federal Government since May 9th , 1988.

ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Cummings), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr.

Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Workers Compensation Board, Civil Service , and the Department of Natural Resources ; and the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenko) in the Chair for the Department of Finance, the Department of Legislation, and Executive Council. (*

(1430) CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-WORKERS COMPENSATION Mr. Chairman, Harold Gilleshammer: We will continue with the discussion of the Workers Compensat ion the Member for Thompson . Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I just had a few concluding comments . We have had some discussion In this committee about the Workers Compensation Board. I suspect that we are going to have increased time, in terms of discussion in the upcoming committees In the next number of years, because essentially some of the changes that are needed at the Workers Compensation Board are essentially in the process right now.

I have expressed my concern that maybe some changes that are not needed either , as far as the interests of injured workers are concerned. But I do want to put on the record the view of the New Democratic Party that action has to be taken and taken soon in response to many of the recommendations that were in the King Task Force Report . - I would like to remind committee Members that task force repor t was certainly not the only review that was initiated by the New Democratic Party Government.

In fact, there were several reviews in a various number of areas , ranging from the Compensation Board generally to rehabilitation , reviews and changes that were made necessary by the fact that the previous Conservative Government had ignored some of the problems, many of the problems . In fact, even when they did initiate a review, the Lampe Commission, I believe, out of the 129 recommendations , only two were enacted at that particular point in time. It took a series of reviews of particular areas to deal with the concerns of injured workers in the upcoming number of years between 1981 and 1988.

I think we are at the same juncture now. The King Task Force Report was the most comprehensive review that was enacted . We had committed ourselves to action during 1988 in response to the task force report . I think it is important to point out the task force report resulted from the views. of Manitobans that were expressed throughout the province, particularly by injured workers .themselves . I think the task force dealt in a very realistic and a very comprehensive way with some of the problems that have developed with Workers Compensation .

I would like to also , in urging that we do responq to the task force report, urge that in dealing with the financial situation at the board that we not , either directly or indirectly , have changes that are made to Workers Compensation that really only reflect the bottom line and are not in the best interests of injured workers . I raise that concern because , quite frankly , I remember some of the pressure that the NDP was put under because of the so-called deficits rising out of the unfunded liability, an unfunded liability incidentally that exists with virtually every compensation board across the country.

If anything, I think the concerns over the financial bottom line did tend to create , I think, regular concern amongst injured workers that they would somehow be the victims of any attempt to balance the books . I argued then when we were in Government and I argued once again in Opposition that the fundamental bottom line has to be the interests of the injured workers themselves.

In fact, if the previous Government can be faulted anything at the Workers Compensation Board, it was not I think that the compensation premiums were increased too much but they were increased too little, because they did not reflect the increasing needs of the board to deal with the concerns of injured workers.

I would certainly put on the record today and put on notice this Government that we will oppose vehemently any attempt to balance the books at the workers' expense , and any attempt as well to roll back some of the clauses I have introduced over the last number of years to improve the lot of injured workers in Manitoba . I have outlined a number of those during · the Estimates procedure . As· I said, we perhaps have dealt with Workers Compensation more briefly than we might have done in· other ytiafs .

I can indicate there will be an extensive examination of the Workers Compensation Board , . particularly in the upcoming year, if this Government • does proceed with some of the areas that it has outlined as having concerns about The Workers' Compensation Act; • Because , as I have said before both outside of 3745

Monday, December 5, 1988 the Legislature and in the Legislature , we are concerned that some of the changes the Minister is contemplating and this Government is contemplating would put compensation back by 10, 20 and 30 years and would affect literally dozens if not hundreds of injured workers . .. So with those brief comments, I would like to indicate once again that we will be watching very closely and I make no bones about our particular interest in watching the Workers Compensation Board . It will be in terms of the situation facing injured workers and their families. Hon.

Edward Connery (Minister responsible for The Worker Compensation Act): I thank the Member for his comments and concerns, and of course they are concerns that we accept also . The Lampe Report, of course , the Member should know that it had just not been out that long and of course the Government changed, so the previous Government did not have the opportunity to implement more of the Lampe Report. I will say to the Member that I went to a dance last night-not last night, Saturday night-with the Workers Comp people, and the morale there was extremely different than it was in the previous year or two .

The comment was that they were sold out this year where last year they were begging people to come and they just did not have a very good turnout . So I think it is important for you to know · that the morale is much better, and that is significantly good for the injured workers when the morale is good . The product ion is much better and I think it is just better overall.

The deficits, as we have mentioned, you know the deficits of the Workers Comp have to be reduced and, in talking with our new administrator, Graham Lane , and with the members of the commission , we can eliminate a lot of the deficit and cost by just an improved administration . As the Member might not agree , but when we took office the Workers Compensation Board was a rudderless ship with a_.J_ot of people missing.

Maybe they were in .the process of doing it because they did have, an implementation team that we maintained on and it _ was a good implementation team , and we appr _eciate the efforts of that team , so we also appreciate the previous Government for putting those sorts of people on in place . He mentioned to us about our concern about balancing the books and, yes , we all are concerned about balancing the books because in the long run the consumer pays for the cost of Workers Compensation .

The consumer pays for the bulk of payroll tax, so while we talk about who cares if it is the employers who are paying it, in reality it is the consumers and a lot of times people who really cannot afford large increases. So that is one of the concerns . But the balancing of the books will not take place on the backs of injured workers .

I will say to the Member , while he has concerns, I think we are to be assessed after we produce the legislation and maybe have had a year of operation to see if what we have introduced is work ing in the best interests of. the people of Manitoba , but especially the workers ·of Manitoba . Mr. Chairman: Are the~e any final comments then on Workers CompensatiQn? This then will conclude our discussions of Workers Compensation . Thank you very much . SUPPLY-CIVIL SERVICE Mr. Chairman, Harold Gilleshammer: At this time then , we will move to the discussion of the Civil Service .

We will begin with a statement from the Honourable Ministe r responsible. Hon. Edward Connery (Minister responsible for The Civil Service Act): It is obvious by only one from each Party that there is not an awful lot of interest in the Civil Service. I do not know if that is good news or bad news and I must say there are none except myself , so th_ere is only one from each of the three Parties who are here today, and I guess we are all mandatory. I am the Minister and you each are the critics . Mr. Allan Patterson (Radi on): Quality instead of quantity. Mr. Connery: Yes, we have the quality .

I thank the Member for Radisson for that comment. I have a prepared-and I guess we did not prepare copies , did we, for the other Members? Sorry about that . We did in the other ones and we have not got them. - (Interjection) - I know and I should have copies and I forgot to ask. Maybe we can get copies and then at least they will have them for after, if not while, because it will take a minute or two and we do not want to waste the time .

In introducing the 1988-89 Budget Estimates for the Civil Service Commission, I would draw attention to the 70th Annual Report of the Civil Service Commission for the fiscal year 1987 to 1988, which was introduced into the House September 23, 1988. This report explains the organization , programs and activities of the Civil Service Commission over the past fiscal year. I would also draw the committee 's attention to the Supplementary Estimates information which has been provided by the Civil Service Commission to provide additional detailed information and clarification to the printed Main Estimates.

This information provides supplementary background, organization, program and financial information designed to assist the Mem bers with the Estimates review now before us. As indicated in the printed material, the Budget Estimates for the Civil Service Commiss ion are comprised of three main components . These includ e the salary and operating expenses of the Commission as set out in item 1; the Government's contribution to the various Civil Service benefit plans as listed under item 2; and the Provincial Payroll Tax as set forth in item 3. As can be seen from the Main Appropriation expenditure

summary, the largest area of increase within 3746

Monday, December 5, 1988 the Civil Service Commission's Estimates is associated with items 2 and 3, the Civil Service Benefit Plans and the levy for the payroll tax. With respect to the various Government benefit plans, the majority of these are fixed through statute or collective agreement. Similarly, the payroll tax 1s calculated based on the payroll for Government employees employed under the authority of The Civil Service Act. •

(1440) With respect to program activities within the Civil Service Commission, much detail is provided within the text of the 1987-88 Annual Report. For the benefit of some of the newer MLAs, I would point out that in the area of collective bargaining, the Government is currently in the midst of a three-year agreement with the MGEA which expires September 21 , 1990.

This agreement provides for a wage increase of 3 percent in each of the first two years and a cost-of-living adjustment in the final year. 't Having assumed responsibility for this portfolio in May of 1988, there is one area in particular I would like to specifically address in my opening remarks and that is the important area of affirmative action . First, as a general comment, it is important to realize that the Government as an employer is operating in a limited to no-growth environment. As the annual report indicates, the number of competitions in 1987-88 was down from 939 in 1986-87 to 836 in 1987-88.

I am advised that turnover and vacancy rates within the Civil Service are generally down as well compared with the previous years, in the area of 3 percent to 4 percent as compared with the norms of up to 8 percent to 10 percent. The Manitoba Civil Service is no longer, and has not been for some years, an area of employment growth or expanding employment opportunities . However, at. the same time that employment opportunities are limited , interest in Government employment remains high. In 1987-88, for example, there were 23,666 applications for the 836 competitions held across all Government departments.

These figures emphasize that competition for available vacancies is very keen with an average of approximately 30 applications per competition. More dramatically stated , this means that each applicant has 29 chances out of 30 of not winning a given competition. As a result of these ratios, on average in any given year, there are approximately 800 to 1,000 successful applications as compared with 22,000 to 24 ,000 unsuccessful applicants . Another interesting fact, Mr.

Chairman, is that approximately 55 percent of all appointments through the competition process go internally to existing employees with the remaining 45 percent going to external applicants. This further limits the number of positions available to the general public and, more importantly, directly impacts the speed at which affirmative action target group representation can be - increased within the Civil Service, ,.

As a result, with approximately 1,000 vacancies available in a giveri year, if 55 percent or 550 go to internal applicants, this leaves a potential ,,total of only 450 vacancies available to external applicants. It is this pool of 450 positions which must be used to_ increase affirmative action representation. Unfortunately, other than women, the target groups on average comprise only 10 percent to 15 percent of applicants for these positions . As a result, Mr. Chairman, the increasing target group representation is difficult given the limitations on the number of positions available for external employment.

The available positions must then be shared among the four target groups ; not to mention the non-target groups which comprise a much larger number of total applicants. With a total Civil Service of approximately 18,500 , it takes 185 new appointments to effect a 1 percent change in any group.

The higher 55 percent success rate for internal applicants is due to many reasons incluqing : promotional and seniority provisions within the collective agreement; _ employment security 11nd- redeployment measures which give first preference to internal staff affected by organizational change, program or budget cuts; the obvious advantage relevant and specific internal Government experience has with the selection process .

While these factors may be understandable, the previous administration agreed to a policy whereby positions within the administrative and clerical components below the administrative level of Officer 2 (currently $37,000 and below) are restricted to internal candidates only. As a result, such working level categories as Administrative Secretary 3, Clerk 3 and 4, Accounting Clerk 1 and 2, Accountant 1 and 2, Administrative Officer 1 and 2, etc., are not available to the external public, including of course affirmative action target group members.

Because these are some of the most highly populated classifications in Government, collectively they can represent from one-fifth to one-third of all Civil Service competitions in any given year. They also represent classifications where target group members could logically hope to gain accei;s to a career in Government. In my opinion, Mr. Chairman, it ~could be argued that this policy , agreed to with the MGEA by the previous administration, constitutes a systemic barrier by not allowing external target group candidates the opportunity to apply for these positions.

Attempts to justify the policy have stated that these restrictions were imposed in order to increase the promotional opportunities for existing clerical employees who are predominantly women, and that is a justifiable concern . While this may be well-intentioned and is obviously favourable to internal employees, the contradiction is this. If the competitions are restricted to internal applicants, then only internal applicants can apply. External applicants are totally shut out. If, on the other .-tiand, the competitions are open to the public, then bbth internal and external applicants can apply.

One group is not disadvantaged at the expense of the other. If the internal applicant is judged through the selection process to be the most meritorious for the c9mpetitions then, fine, they will be granted the position . If, however, an external candidate is judged to be the 3747

Monday, December 5, 1988 most meritorious , then they will be granted the position and surely the best interest of the public will have been served. Mr. Chairman, if we are truly talking about affirmative action, about fairness, about openness , and ~about equity with the selection process , then surely we would not be implementing systems which benefit one group, internal employees, to the direct disadvantage of the very groups we are trying to attract in greater numbers to the Civil Service , i.e., external target group members from the visible minority, Native and disabled communities, and also to women.

This is what was approved under the previous administration as a component of their Affirmative Action Program through agreement with the MGEA at a time when total employment opportunities in Government were at best static and at worst, decreasing. Mr. Chairman, these ..are some of the reasons why, in our commitment to move affirmative action ahead in Government in a realistic way, we are not going to simply duplicate what we view as the mistakes of the former administration .

The Opposition have attempted to create a tempest In a teapot over the fact that we have elevated the function of affirmative action coordinator by incorporating those responsibilities within the role of Assistant Deputy Minister of Human Resources Management. The fact is, Mr.

Chairman, if we are truly serious about integrating affirmative action into the relevant Government systems, then that is exactly where the responsibility for affirmative action should reside, with the central area in Government which is accountable for the staffing systems, employment counselling and support systems , staff development training functions, etc., which directly support the implementation of affirmative action in Government . An Opposition critic has tried to suggest that the Assistant Deputy Minister will not have the time, given his other priorities, to devote to that affirmative action.

What that person fails to realize, Mr. Chairman, is that under the previous administration the former affirmative action coordinator was one position without staff support or direct .responsibility over the important programs and "functions which are necessary to effectively implement affirmative action in Government. . The Assistant Deputy Minister has reporting to him some 43 staff; including managers and professionals responsible for administering the staff, employment counselling and training and development systems of Government.

All of these staff are now directly involved in providing services, support and activity that is required to ensure the monitoring and implementation of affirmative action in Government. This is the area in Government wh.ere Human Resource management policy is ,.developed and through which all staffing actions and procedures, including affirmative action, are audited. These areas of implementation must be integrated in order to have any real impact across the Government as a whole. Mr.

Chairman, it is with these initial remarks that I wanted to address some of the preliminary comments to set the record straight with respect to this one important area of responsibility under this portfolio. Thank you . Mr. Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Minister . We will now ha..ve the customary reply by the critic of the Official Opposition , the Member for Radisson (Mr. Patterson) . Mr. Patterson: Thank-you, Mr. Chairman . I would like to ask the Minister some questions and address som e of the things that he mentioned in his opening statement a little later on . Mr.

Chairman: We can have you ask the questions after the staff joins him. Mr. Patterson: I would just like to say it is a pleasure for me to be here in the position of Opposition Critic with the Civil Service Commission . I have had some , as with the Department of Labour, considerable contact with people in the Commission over my years as a professor at the University of Manitoba . Your Assistant Deputy Minister, Mr.

Gerry Irving, has been up every year to. address my labour relations ' classes and John Cumberford has similarly been up at the university , and I think it is one aspect of the Government people generally or the Civil Service Commission in this respect , that it is very, very useful to students at the university 19 have practitioners who are out there in the "real world " come up and tell them something about it. I would just like to commend the Commission , it s personnel, for that type of thing .

I have some things to bring up on affirmative action and the selection process that probably gets better as we go along, but that will do for the moment. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. •

(1450) Mr. Chairman: Thank you. We will now hear from the crit ic of the Second Opposition Party (Mr. Ashton). Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Thank you , Mr. Chairperson .

During the Estimates' discussion in term s of the Civil Service, I will be raising a number of concerns about the way in which this Government has treated • the Civil Service generally , whether it be indicated by some of the treatment of individual s, some of the statements that have been made , or what I feel has been an attempt on their part , especially in the ord er of affirmative action, they create a smoke screen around their clear lowering of the level of priority that this Government is giving to affirmative action .

I will be dealing with that fairly extensively in the limited time that we do have available . I want to begin by saying that there is a really poor atmosphere, I would say, particularly in certain segment s of the Civil Service. It is interesting the Minister referred earlier to morale of the Workers Compensation Board .

I can say in talking to civil servants that not just the actions of this Government but some of the comments, and comments made by the Minister himself , have contributed in some cases to people having , I would say, basically a climate of fear in their departments , other cases not quite as serious as that , but there is a sense of uneasiness . I was in Portage , for example , last week , the home constituency of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Connery), 3748

Monday, December 5, 1988 and was talking to people , civil servants , who indicated for example that, because of the statements that the Minister had made with regards to pink slips-and I realize the Minister issued an apology and so he should have issued an apology, but only after pressure from the MGEA and the New Democratic Party-of people, for example, who were afraid to work in the election in Portage, this last federal election, because of fear for their job .

That is, I think, an indication of the kind of atmosphere that has developed in the Civil Service as I said because, in this particular case, of some pretty careless comments by the Minister . Even though he has apologized, I really feel that the consequences of those statements have gone beyond even what the apology can rectify. So I will be raising my concern about what is happening in the Civil Service as a result of that. I will also be talking about some specific instances .

I mentioned that the Minister of Labour apologized for his comments, but I raise the concerns of a couple of his departmental employees who are very concerned ;'t. about statements that were made to them by senior iJ officials in his department after the statements came out about the pink slips. They were very concerned about statements that were made to them and questions as to who would report it, the comments about the pink slips, to the New Democratic Party and also asking the question who would report it to the union.

I can indicate once again, if one talks to the individuals involved , that this had a very major impact on them.

I talked to one of the individuals involved just earlier today, who has been suffering health-wise because of the comments that were made in the aftermath of those comments and , once again, I think is indicative of how the approach of this Government has created , and I do not mean to overstate it, but there is certainly an uneasiness among some people and, yes, even a fear among others because, no matter what the Minister likes to use as justification for the statements he made, there can be no doubt in my mind , having talked to civil servants at the time and since that time, they worry that the Minister was not joking, that people do have to worry for their jobs because of the agenda of this Government.

So I will be raising that particular concern . I referenced affirmative action a few minutes ago . I will be talking about the fact that the Government has done a great deal of finger pointing, trying to blame the previous NOP Government, when the Minister full well knows there were major initiatives taken by the New Democratic Party in the area of affirmative action.

What I find particularly bizarre is the logic or supposed logic of the Minister in suggesting that by eliminating the affirmative action coordinator , a move incidentally which was condemned not just by the Opposition-in fact, I condemned it as soon as I became aware of it-but also by Professor McDonald , for examp _le, who was the chair of the recent Task Force into Multiculturalism , made a number of recommendations in regard to affirmative action and clearly said that the· move by the Government to eliminate the affirmative action coordinator 's position flew in ·the face of the kind of recommendations that ·task force had mad·e, and further it- flew in the face of what was needed to move affirmative action ahead.

So I am going to be talking about the reality of the Government's moves and also the reality of the fact that the Minister has repeatedly refused to give an indication of where this Government is going to go in regard to affirmative action in terms of targets. So we have no way of judging the Government, even by their own standards . I think that is extremely unfortunate on their part. I will also be raising questions about what this Government's plans are jn regard to contracting out because that is a long-standing concern · of civil servants in particular.

I think many Manitobans who do not want to see us go down the road of other provinces where they have privatized , where they have contracted out to the point where services have suffered . I know in British Columbia the way tbey suffered and _in Saskatchewan under the ideological agendas of the Parties in power in those particular provinces. · I will be raising those sorts of concerns as well. The bottom line of the comments I will be making in Estimates, Mr.

Chairperson, are that I think this Government has to rethink the way in which it deals with the Civil Service , I think in the same way it has to rethink the way it is dealing with working people generally in this province .

I raised those concerns in the area of discussion under the Department of Labour, but I think the combination of some of the statements that have been made in terms of pink slips, some of the individual treatment that people have received , some of the smoke screens that we have seen developed in affirmative action and the lack of the commitment on the part of this Govl)rnment, not Id' proceed the same ideological ways of the right-wing Governments in terms of privatization, those are all areas that have created, as I said , an. uneasiness in the Civil Service and-I hate to use this term, but-a climate of fear among some people .

When I hear people in the Minister 's own constituency who are afraid to campaign in an election because of the pink slips comments, and I know one person particularly came under a great deal of pressure from her parents who said, do not get involved in the election . After those kinds of statements, it is pretty clear your job could be on the line.

Now whether that was the intent of the Minister or not , and I do not think it was the intent of the Minister to have people affected in that way, that has been the consequence and I think it is going to take the Minister a considerable amount of work to regain what trusts, if any, the Civil Service - and I do not mean just in the general sense but the individual sense-what l~vel of trust they have in terms of the Government because it has suffered in the six months that this Government · has been in office .

Mr.-,Chairman: We will allow the staff to come to the table at this time and proceed with item 1., the Civil Service Commission . This provides centralized personnel management services to all departments of Government and agencies, boards or commissions • whose staff are appointed under The Civil Service Act . 3749

Monday, December 5, 1988 The Commission is responsible for recruitment and selection , classif ication plans , pay plans , personnel policy and benefits adminis t rat ion, managemen t development , staff trai ning, employee health and counselling and the provision of leadership and :;upport to depa rtments in the implementation of ~ff irmative action plans and programs . Through the Labour Relations Services Division , the Commission provides . for negotiation of collective agreements, contract adm inistration , public sector coordination , compensation research, and provision of consultative services.

In addition to responsiblility for an appeal function, the Commission performs an audit function , provides advice to the Minister responsible on matters concerning personnel administration, and is responsible for implementation of pay equity in the Manitoba Civil Service in line with pay equ ity legislation . The Commission also provides for the Temporary Assignment Program, a small core of executives and senior managemen ! professionals who can undertake a variety of temporary priority assignments within the Manitoba Civil Service . 1.(

a) Executive Office:

(1) Salaries , $295,300-the Honourable Minister . *

(1500) Mr. Connery: I would like to introduce staff first of all. We have Paul Hart, who is the Civil Service Commissioner . We have Gerry Irving , who is the Assistant Deputy Minis \ er, Labour Relations ; Terry Edgeworth, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Human Resources, the man who is going to see that affirmative action does well within the Civil Service - I hope I am not hanging you out , Terry-Bob Pollock, Secretary to the Civil Service Commission Board ; and Audrey Clifford, Manager of Administrative Services . So this is the staff that we have with us today . Mr. Chairman : On item 1.(a)

(1) Salaries. Mr. Ashton: On a point of order, Mr. Chairperson . Mr. Chairman: A point of order . Mr. Ashton:· Since we have limited time , I am wondering If we ·might deal with all questions and then perhaps pass items line by line , as we have to do, and then have our closing comments . The reason I am raising that is because I do know we are under a severe time constraint. Mr. Chairman: We have to proceed line by line. Mr. Ashton: No, I am suggesting we have the discussion ,Jnd then at the end of the discussion . . . Mr. Chairman: Go to Research and Planning . Is there a l ine there? Do it all. Mr.

Ashton: Do all the discussion , pass every item , then go back to the necessary closing comments . Mr. Chairman: l.(a)(1)-pass ; 1.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures , $52 ,700 - pass ; !.(b) - Administrative Services ,

(1) Salaries , $774 ,600-pass . Mr. Connery: You are in the Supplementary , to the Mem ber for Radisson (Mr. Patterson) . Look in your Est imates Boo k. It is in your Estimat es Book by the line . 4:· Mr. Chairman: 1.(~)

(2) Other Expendi tures, $460 , 100- pass ; l.(

c) Human Resource Management Services,

(1) Salaries , I,603 ,500 - pass; 1.(c)

(2) Other Expenditures , $758,200 - pass ; 1.(c)

(3) Less: Recover able from Other Appropr iiltions , $129 ,000 - pass ; 1.(

d) Ca reer Development Program :

(1) Salaries - pass. Mr. Patterson: Are there not details for each of these? Mr. Connery: I think we need to decide where we want to discuss the issues while we have staff here . It does not matter what area it is in. I look here and there is no Research and Planning sector . Mr. Ashton: Excuse me, Mr. Chairperson ; if the Liberal critic-I would certainly agree that we deal with RII the items under this line item , and then pass everything and then go back to Minister's Salary . Mr. Chairman: There is no Minister 's Salary in these Estimates . Mr. Connery: I am donating my time here . Mr.

Ashton: Now we cannot move to reduce the Minister's Salary. Mr. Patterson: I would just like to argue the detail s as we go along and try to get - these should be on the order here . For instance , where is Career Development Program? Mr. Connery: Pages 46 and 47 in the Supplementary. Mr. Chairman : Under Career Development Program , 1.(d)(1) - pass ; 1.(d)

(2) Less: Reco verable from Other Appropriations - pass; 1.(

e) Temporary Assignmen t Program,

(1) Salaries $131 ,300 - pass ; 1.(e)

(2) Less Recoverable from Other Appropriations $131 ,300 - pass. 1.(

f) Labour Relations Services : ( 1) Salaries , $655 ,300 - the Member for Radisson . Mr. Patterson : In the matter of affirmat ive action, the thrust of what the Minister said in the House in Question Period and what has been said in his opening remarks largely gives the impression of approaching affirmative act ion as being something that is connected only with selection , particularly for outside competitions .

Now I realize full well, i f the facts are facts and we · are limited to this pool of 450 new applicants , there is only so much can be done, although everything needs to be done in the matter of affirmative action in those roughly 450 selections but , nevertheless , affirmativ e action also should be taking place int ernally. I do not know the exact breakdown , but a very significant proportion of females for one , outsid e of any of the other target groups such as visible minorities and 3750

Monday, December 5, 1988 handicapped and so on who are already in the Civil Service and affirmative action does not apply. It means that steps have to be taken internally to see that the various target groups that are already within the Civil Service are prov ided with means to progress up the ladder and to make full use of their capabilities through special training programs, either internal or external , being given the opportunity to perform in other areas , be it transfers , promotions and so on.

So I would like to ask the Min ister just what specific actions are under way internally to redress some of the past discrimination , shall we say? Mr. Connery: The same criter ia for external or internal bulletining is the same for people to get the job . The Member knows that there are points and people are assessed and given points all the way through and then, if it is an affirmative action target group , whether it be a woman , a Nat ive person , a physically handicapped or vis ible minority , they are given additional points for being of that target group . So if l

i) everything is equal , then the affirmative action person would get that particular job but, with the low numbers coming from the outside, unless there are affirmative action people already internal, then it is difficult to promote them internally . I understand the concern of MGEA employees who are in the Civil Service. Now that they are in, they would like to promote people up through the ranks . It is a legitimate argument but it does restrict people from the outside getting into the Government , so we have to accept that reality .

I have difficulty as the Minister when I look at the bulletin board and it says " an equal opportunity employe r" and then it says "for internal people only," for existing Civil Service staff. I find that sticks in the craw just a little bit that that is taking place. Mr. Patterson: Mr. Chai rperson , I would point out that what the Minister has just described is the internal selection process , given that ind ividuals , be they part of the target groups or not , have certain qualifications that are evaluated and scored and then the target groups get something extra .

The question I raised is, wha t is being done to enable these people internally in the target groups to improve themselves, to qualify for higher-level positions? Mr. Connery : Okay, there are two programs , Career Pathing and Career Development for people within the Civil Service who need assistance to move up, so we have that.

It is available only in Winnipeg at this point , but the department is working to move it outside of Winnipeg also so that we can help develop people in other cent res, whethe r it be up North possibly or - it is a pilot project in Brandon , so we will see how that works outside of Winnip eg. Mr. Patterson: Are the target groups being sought out internally to identify them and get across to them that these th ings are available? Are they being .encouraged to take advantage of it? Mr.

Connery : Yes, they are. fn fact , when I first assumed office , t here was one of these people , target groups in our office getting developmen t so that they could move on either to permanent employment or to betier employment. So this is an ongoing process. *

(1510) Mr. Patterson: In carrying out - if I may revert to this as I have done occasionally in others, to my professorial background , i n management , the Minister has stated that this is being shoved down into the departments . Now that , of course, is where implementation of any policy , be it affirmative action or any other policies in any organization has to take place . It is the line managers down throughout the hierarchy who have to car ry it out.

But just to quote from a personal textbook that 1 · used in my previous incarnation as a professor in this particular area, in the various steps , seven stej:>s in this particular case that are laid out in setting up a good affirmative action program, it is pointed out that-if I might just quote : " Anyth ing less than total backing from top officials raises questions about the sincerity . of the organization's commitments in the eyes of Government agencies, courts and employees.

To exhibit this commitment forcefully, company officials may make raises , bonuses and promotions dependent on each manager 's compliance ." This applies, as I say, to any policy . I might just carry on to the final step here of establishing controls.

It says: "Personnel specialists and line managers must perceive their awards as depending upon the success of the affirmative action program ." In Government bureaucracies , be they municipal , provincial or federal , they cannot operate with quite , you might say, the ruthlessness of the private sector, but nevertheless what mechanisms are in place to see th~t the lirie managers down throughout the hierarchy see the implementat ion to the degree that they can of affirmative action as being an essential part of their job, and that their awards and punishments being somewhat dependent on it, along with other factors in the job of course?

Mr. Connery: A couple of comments, I am surprised the Member would say that the private sector was ruthless. I would hope that when he makes his next question he would withdraw that from the record . I am sure it was an inadvertent statement , because I do not consider the private sector "ruthless ." I also do not agree with the comment that affirmative action was shoved down into the department . The Member should know there is extensive tra ining for managers , as dealing with affirmative action and how affirmative action should be progressed with .

The · Member should know there is a body of three Deputy Ministers and thr~ people from MGEA who are on a committee . T~re is also another internal commit tee made up with all the departments. There are some 52 people there on a committee for affirmative action. It is in the personnel departments where people are hired. So you can have as many positions you want. If you do not ha\te the people in the personnel departments understanding the requirements of affirmative action 3751

Monday, December 5, 1988 .. and how to progress with aff irmative action and affirma tive action hiring , it is not goin g t o take place . So it is whe re the action is, is where you have got to have the emphas is. This is what we have done . , We are not only concerned about affirmativ~ action within the Civil Service, as you know . We are pushing the Crown corporations to ensure that they are also concerned with affirmative action and are following procedures . In fact, the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) himself, personally, has contacted all of the Crown corporations , telling them that affirmative action is a major part of this Government's program and asking for their full support to implement affirmative action . So I think, personally, that affirmative action will work better when it is in these departments . We will be monitoring departments to see that each department is following it. I know it is more difficult in certain departments which traditionally men are hired because of the nature of work , and so it is more difficult within some departments .

In others , it is more easy to attain and really should be able to exceed the target groups . What is the target for affirmative action? I hate setting goals and numbers because I always feel that then you stop when you have achieved that number . Of course, the realities are, what is the percentage of the affirmative action target group within the work force? Of course it has been identified.that women are about 50 percent. Natives are in the 10 percent area . Visible minorities are, I believe , 6 percent and 7 percent for the physically handicapped .

Those figures though are now told to us to be unrealistic , that when you are talking about those able to enter the labour force , in some instances , maybe those numbers are not there because there are not the people really wanting to enter the work force . There could be a disparity between those people who are wanting to be in the work force and the general make up of the population as a whole . Mr. Patterson: · I in no way meant, Mr. Chairman , to denigrate the private sector , I apologize .

What I had intended to do, it was a bit of a slip , I should have said "ruthless " wain n quotation marks . · At a:ny rate, and I think the Minister has said just what I was getting at , that it is the people down in the departments who have to carry these polic ies out.

It needs to be seen as part of their job and that their annual or semi-annual performance evaluation and the extent to which they will get any standard or merit increments, that their results in implement ing affi rmat ive action will be taken into serious consideration, along with other things in • their evaluation of how the , departments are run .

Unless there is this kind of pressure from ·the top, be it in the public sector or the private , things are not likely to happen because in any bureaucracy, be it private or public , if things are reasonably satisfactory and there is no particular impetus for making some change , the changes are difficu _lt to implement. Also , so far as affirmative action is concerned, the Minister was alluding to various percentages in the labour force . What we really need to be concerned with is the relevant labour market.

Manitoba Hydro , for instance , in hir ing new engineers ar(il trying to get its pro portion of female . engin eers up from what it is, if anything. I canno t say that while 40 percent or 50 per cent of the work forc e is female , so we want 50 percent female engineers . Until such tim e as t he Engineering Faculties in the various univers ities start turning out significant numbers of female engineers, that type of targ et canno t be met . The Minister also refers to target s and quotas, which I do not look at as being exactly the same thing. A quota is, if I may define it, any number .

So if we say some particular department has a quota of we must hire, out of the 20 individuals they are going to hire , 10 must be female or whatever , that is a quota. But a target would merely be saying that over some , say, reasonable time period of, let us say, five years that we want to achieve such and such a percentage of some group in this particular" department or unit .

If that percentage is, say, 40 percent , if it ends up at 38 percent or 42 percent , we would not say that the target was particularly overshot or undershot, and at any one particular t ime-well , it would not necessarily be implemented evenly over the four or five years or whatever the time frame of the particular target is. I would just appreciate the Minister's comments on that. Mr. Connery : It is not quotas per se, and that word gets used I know , and there are target s, but targe ts also have to have a number to them and number s almost then become quotas.

You do not want to stop at a number or if you overshoot , so what , if the peop le are the re and capable of doing it. But built right into the manager 's job description is affirmat ive act ion and how they will deploy affirmative action is part of the manager 's job description . So affirmative action is right there at the top . *

(1520) Mr. Patterson: It would , therefore, be individual manager 's performanc e, and this particular

section of his or her duties would be given some weight at the annual performance evaluations and remuneration. Mr. Connery: You can be assured that it will be. If there is a sector that is not producing the desire d results , then there will be follow-up work with thos e particu lar groups . In some particular instances , ther e might be a reasonable rationale for it not happenin g, like we say different departments and , as you say, engineers . If we said 50 percent of the engineers had to be women, are there enough women engineers out there to do it?

So if they are of equal qua lity or equal ability , then a woman would be given the advantag e of that. This is quite interesting to -a young woman came into my office and she was doing a r eport . I think she was in university and wanted to know a little bit about affirmative action. So we had some discussion . She said, you mean to say that a woman of affirmative action - and this woma n was not an affirmativ e actio n target group member - would get a preference over me? I said, if you all had the same number of points after assessing your capabilities, experience and all of 3752

I Monday, December 5, 1988 the other things required , you were equal , then the affirmative action person would be hired . She did not like that s o much if that affirmative action person was a woman . But I said the reverse happens when it is a woman competing against a male . Then if you are competing against a male, you would get those extra points and you would get the job, and so she liked that . So there is a little bit of difference here as to how it affects people . Mr.

Patterson: I would just like to move on to the matter of selection and the general thrust of the Civil Service being appointments and promotions impart ially on merit . I am not faulting the present Government in this respect . Actually , I am going back to the previous NOP administration. It would appear that in some cases the selection process has been-how shall we say? somewhat overridden .

In one particular case that came to the public's attention roughly a year and a half or so ago in the selection for French translators , a woman who was head and shoulders, from what one could tell from what was in the media, above virtually any other applicants was told that, well, the position had be filled , she was not qualified , and so on. I believe the ease l do not know if it has been settled yet or not . I understand the individual brought suit .

I would like to just inqu ire about that and also ask the Minister what steps have been taken to see that the selection process is not circumvented in that particular case. Mr. Connery: That particular case, of course, is not an affirmative action concern. It was of a different concern . It went before the Human Rights Commission . To our knowledge , we do not know where it is at, if it has been adjudicated or if it is just sitting there . I do agree with the Member for Radisson (Mr. Patterson) of the impotence and disregard the previous Government had for affirmative act ion.

It was given lots of lip-service but, in reality, it was not given very · much firm direction to ensure that it took place. Mr. Patterson: I was not referring to affirmative action in this particular case . I just thought that the selection , process is such whereto any knowledgeable individual P In personal matters , to which I would lay some modest claim, would very quickly conclude from what was in the media at the time that the normal selection process had just been circumvented and others, I do not know how many, had been appointed to this job or jobs .

The then Government and Civil Service Commission certainly had egg on its face . I am just asking the Minister if he will assure us there would be no interference in the selection process as set up for the Civil Service and that only strictly political aP,pointments would be made in a unilateral or political manner . Mr. Connery: Once you start to pol itic ize · the Government and politicize departments , you get in severe trouble . We saw that · in the Workers Compensation Board where it just ·went awry.

The department officials - and ·of course you have • to always remember that the press do not necessarily report all avenues ' or all parts of a concern. The department advises me that the selection was made ,... with all appropriateness and all of the factors take n into consideration in the ir belief that the appropr iate person or the best person was hired at that time . While a person raises the allegation of impropriety in many respects, it maybe was not there, similarly to the allegations of impropriety from the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) which was just a lot of smoke but there really is no fire . Mr.

Patterson: Along the same lines , there was some mention made in connection with, I guess, the Environment Estimates the other day about an excellent individual in the Minister's office who did not appear on the statements here . I would just like to ask the Minister what process was followed in the hiring of that particular individual. Was that an external competition that was opened to all? ·· · · Mr. Connery: It was a term employment. That is •not open to the selection process in .the term appointment .

If I could add, it was done through the Civil Service and through the same proper procedures that would be done in the case of a term employment. Mr. Patterson: Just a matter of clarification, that could be ministerial at discretion but handled by the Civil Service Commission? Mr. Connery: Departmental discretion in appointing these people , it was done through that process . There is no impropriety in the hiring process. Mr. Patterson: I will just ask for clarification here. A term position would mean that an individual is not then part of the Civil Service? Mr.

Connery: There are permanent positions where competitions are held . Term positions are not because it is a term position so competitions are not held in term positions. There are quite a few term positions within the Civil Service. Mr. Patterson: What process is followed though if a term position comes up? Doe.s the Civil Service advertise it or can the Minister or whoever is responsible for making the decision merely appoint someone that he or she thinks is qualified , and the Civil Service then just processes the hiring? Mr.

Connery: Within the process, if you have a permanent person in the Civil Service and a term position comes up, they are not likely to apply for that position because they already are on. People with full time employment are not interested in term positions . There are a lot of term positions within the var ious departments that are brought on for a specific reason, a specific time , a program .

I could read for the Member : Appotatment of Temporary Employee: where an employing authority requires an employee for a specific period of time or until the occurrence of a specific event, the Commission may authorize the employing authority to employ a temporary employee for the period of time or until the occurrence of the event, and the 3753

Monday, December 5, 1988 employing a uthority shall furnish the Commission with partic ulars of the employme nt a nd the temporary employee employed . My concern is the delive ry of program and of course our department is very varied and very comple5c. If we do not deliver the program properly and if we are not proactive instead of reactive , proactive in the sense of doing things before incidents happen - I think an example of one of those is the family that almost perished in a wood-burning incident where they had a wood stove .

I have asked our department to put out a calendar of events coming up so that we warn people about these sorts of things in advance . Say late October we would put out a news release on wood-burning stoves . Once a year, I think we should be flagging the radon situation. It should be in the fall when radon is at its most dangerous height because of the lack of air movement during the winter . So the delivery of program to the people of Manitoba is paramount and that requires enough people to do the job adequately . *

(1530) Mr. Ashton: Mr. Chairperson, I have a couple of questions in terms of affirmative action . I would like to ask the Minister if he can provide this committee with statistics outlining the representation of various target groups over the last number of years, perhaps even a 10-year period so we can get some idea of the current trend both in terms of the overall number of employees who are part of the various target groups , and also in regard to the number of hirings in each year. Mr.

Connery: Before we get into that , I want to take the opportunity to reply to the Member for Thompson 's opening remarks, where he was talking about pink slips and that people were concerned and all of this . I can assure the Member that the fact is that you can always find · somebody who will say, yes I was scared , yes I was worried . The fact is that in all the departments that I went through and our being light-hearted with people and putti~g .. people at ease that we were not out to do aft of these bad things that the Opposition were · saying we would .

Not once did the Deputy or director e..,er say, maybe your words are not in taste or maybe you ai:e worrying somebody . So there really was not that sort of thing but you can always find somebody to say, yes, I was . As far as people being afraid to work in an election, that is ludicrous , absolutely ludicrous to make the suggestion that anyb9dy-(lnterjection)- the Member says so_mebody was scared . Does that Member want ' to mention wtio · that person is? You can bring in all kinds of statements with no substance behind it, then you have to - Mr.

Chairman: On a point of order, the Member for Thompson , would you state your point , please ? Mr. Ashton: I asked the Minister a question in regard to affirmative action and how he is attempting to justify his statements in regard to pink slips . If the Minister wants to deal with those items now , I will be more than glad to because I have a series of questions rela ted to that item . But usually I th ink the process is, whe n a'ques tion is asked , tti,e answer is to that question not to some other item tha t is on the Minister 's mind .

Now if the Ministe r wants to get into a free- for-all, I do not think that is·necessarily in the best intere sts of the committee , but I would like to ask that the Minister confine his answers to the questions that were asked and perhaps save any general commen ts for the fin al comment s in' committee . Mr. Chairman: The Member does not have a point of order . The Honourable Minister . Mr. Connery: Okay, I will back off that at this point and will get into the statistics on it.

If the Member has the statistics that we have for affirmat ive action , you can see visibly what they are, that there has been progress in achieving additional affirmative action target groups . Is there a question on the numbers? Mr. Ashton: I asked if the Minister had the figures (tl available for the last 10-year period. · Mr. Connery: No, we do not . When was affirmativ e action officially? It started out in 1985 when they started to keep records . Prior to that, records were not being kept. There were some bulletined in 1986 whe n the records started to be kept.

So we only have records going back for that period of time . Mr. Ashton: I find that interes ting, Mr. Chairperson, because every time the Minister talks about affirmative action he talks as if he has indication of the number of appointments the last number of years , every time he criticizes the previous Government. Yet, we find out now that it is only since actually the New Democratic Party started the process that records have been kept.

I think if the Minister bothered to check with peopl e who were around during the Sterling Lyon years , he would have found t here was virtually no affirmation action program , if any, and that great gains were made under the New Democratic Party. He can be critical all he wants , and I would join him in saying that more needs to be done . But I find it interesting that one minute the Minister talks critically of the previous Governmen t, when we find out in actua l fact it was th e previous Government that started affirmative action in the real sense of the word in Manitoba .

The Conservative Government , part of that had virtually no record in that area. I remember when we came into office, and a good example is the depar tment of Northern Affairs, a departmen t that deals virtually exclus ively with Native ·communities . There were a handful of Native peopl e working in that department. Today, there are many Native people working in that department , which only to my mind makes sense both in terms of employmen t equity and in terms of that department itself , but I find it very surprising .

I have a further question to the Minister though , and perhaps he can provide me with this informat ion. That is in regard to board and commission appointments . 3754

Monday, December 5, 1988 I know this question has been raised in the House . There has not been a complete response yet in terms of the Government as a whole. As the Minister responsible for affirmative action, I was wondering if he could indicate what appojntments this Government has made in terms of affirmative action appointments, both in terms of women, visible minorities, the handicapped; also, not just the number of appointments generally, but also the number of chairs that have been appointed by the current Government in regard to the breakdown in terms of women and the other target groups. Mr.

Connery: I am told that those appointments do not come from out of the Civil Service . Mr. Ashton: The Minister is responsible for affirmative action. That was basically relayed to us in the House by the Minister responsible for Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mrs. Mitchelson). I am asking the question in terms of affirmative action generally. I realize it is not the Civil Service per se but it is affirmative action.

If the figures are not available, I was wondering if the Minister could provide that to myself and perhaps the Liberal critic in writing, once again, the breakdown of appointments by the current Government in regard to affirmative action . I must admit I do have an agenda, I suppose, on that particular issue. Once again, this is one area with significant inroads made by the New Democratic Party. The number of women who were appointed was nearly doubled from the previous Conservative Government.

There was a significant increase in the number of women appointed to positions, senior positions, chairs of boards, and also a significant improvement in the number of Native people and visible minorities and handicapped appointed to boards . I want to get some indication of what this Government has done . The Minister likes to talk about its record. Can he perhaps give us those statistics when they do become available? Mr. Connery: I am quite proud of our record . I think what it will show is that we have surpassed the previous Government.

I think, unlike the previous Government , we have attempted to ensure that all target groups are represented in as many boards and commissions as possible . With the Civil Service Commission itself , we have two people, one from the Native target group , and one that is a visible minority on the Civil Service Commission. I think we have four women and three men, so we have more women on it. We have exceeded the target group on that. But all through the other various boards and commissions, we have continuously strived to appoint as many visible minorities, handicapped, Native and women on boards and commissions .

I think what it will show in the end is that we will have appointed more of these people to boards and commissions thari probably any previous Government . . ~, . Further, I would hope that in·the next round we dan from these various groups. At times, it is difficult to find a target group person or from one of the particular categories for- *

(1540) Mr. Ashton: They do not have to be Tories. Mr. Connery: Now the Member said they do not have to be Tories. I can assure you ·that there are · not all Tories on these boards and commissions. There are Liberals and there are sorrie NDPers who are on boards and commissions. I say to the Member that I resent the indication that you have to be a Tory. I can tell you what the criteria is to be on boards and commissions with our Government is that you have got to have the ability to do the job. That is th~ first criteria . I think we have done exceedingly well irr making ·sure that the appointments are quality . In the Civil Service, we wanted to make sure that we did have a cross

section of people. I think we have achieved that very well . When we look at the makeup of the Civil Service Commission, it is a very well made up board . Mr. Ashton: Mr. Chairperson, I asked a very straightforward question . I realize the Minister did not have the information . It is obvious from his comments he does not have the information . I am wondering if he will commit himself to providing myself and the Liberal critic with information as to the current appointments that had been made by the Government, and a fair number have been made to boards and commissions.

I am not referring to one specific area, I am referring to across the board. He is, once again, the Minister responsible for affirmative action. Can he provide Members of this. committee, in writing, with a report on the current appointments, specifically as they relate to affirmative action for the Government as a whole? Mr. Connery: When we have completed all of our boards and commissions, there is no question that we will be doing a final tally of all. I think particularly the Premier (Mr. Filmon), if I remember-and I have not done a tally personally.

There were 40 percent women on boards and commissions, I think was the number that we achieved at that point . When we finally finish, then of course we will have it. There is some difficulty in some boards and commissions . I can tell you the Manitoba Environment Council, who basically submit their own representation as far as affirmative action goes, is not satisfactory to me. I spoke to them on Saturday. I complained about this particular aspect, that I expected in the future to see more from the affirmative action group , that there was not near the female representation on the commission.

I think they have very valued judgments when it comes to the environment. I am not satisfied with some of the boards but, some of them, we do not make the appointments. They are selected by certain groups · and they make those appointments. I have sp9kEin to Dr. Rollo before . I said, look, we need more people from the various sectors that make up the mosaic of this community even improve 011 that until we achieve the full amount Mr. Ashton: The appointment of people to boards of and when we have sufficient time to find enough people • commissioners is on an ongoing basis, so I do not 3755

Monday, December 5, 1988 ._.. understand the comments of the Minister in regard to waiting until the proc ess is finished . One of the reasons I am interested, for example, is the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) indicated how many women had been appointed, so presumably somebody somewtiere is keeping track of that . He indicated there were 40 percent that had been appointed. The Minister has just indic~ted that, and that was some great increase over the period in which the NOP was in. Well, I checked the figures .

The last figures I saw were basically that the number of appointments under the NOP was about 42 percent. So the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) is obviously finding the figures but does not know what happened previously . I am asking this Minister, and I will ask once again , if he will find out the current statistics in terms of appointments to boards and commissions, and provide it to this committee specifically as it relates to affirmative action . Now, I also have some further questions relating to a subject that the Minister jumped into when he referred to the pink slip comments that he made.

I want to indicate to him that the person who indicated that to me was in his own constituency of Portage, in terms of fear, in terms of working for the election , and the Minister has to remember that it was not that long ago in this province that many people did receive pink slips from the previous Conservative Government. There was a great deal of fear in.the Civil Service during the 1977 to 1981 period . So people are looking at what has happened in the past, and they are looking at the statements that have been made by the Minister .

What I want to ask the Minister first of all in regard to this-and I indicated at the start that he had issued an apology, and so he should-I would like him to indicate who did he give his apology to, and has it been communicated to all civil servants . Mr. Connery: The apology was sent, not because something wropg was done but in case somebody misinterpreted my statements , and that was the reason the apology was sent. There was no intent and of course the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) knows that . He talks about -pink slips . I can go back to an

article in -the ·Free Press prior to '86 when the now-Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer) was absolutely violently mad ovel the firings of the NOP Government of civil servants, and there were humongous numbers. It went on to say that the Sterling Lyon Government who was supposed to have done all of this really had done very little because they were vacant positions . So we have to look at it in the context of realities and facts. The Member is not arguing realities and facts, but trying ·to put .misinformation on the record . Mr. Ashton: What misinformation?

The Minister had better withdraw that comment. If he is talking about putting misinformation on the record, we stated in the House, we said that comments had been made about the pink slips . The Minister initially denied that. He came outside of the House, acknowledged that those statements had been made and issued what we thought was an apology. Now we find in committee on December 5 that it was not really an apology according to the Minister . It was just a clarification . According to the reports I had seen-, it was taken as al'.l apology . It was certainly expected and taken as that by the people involved'.

Now the Minister is trying to " fudge " his way out of it. If he wants to talk abou t misinformation , he should check . He confirmed the allegations himself. So what is he talking about misinformation? The only misinformation on the record was his initial statement in the House when he tried to deny that such statements had been made . I wanted to ask again ii it was communicated to all civil servants . I also want to refer to an issue that he has alluded to, and that is related to the subsequent harassment that took place of departmental employees. I raised this in the House. I talked to the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) very shortly afterwards , and I appreciate, Mr. Chairperson, if you could ask the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) to go and deal with some of the pressing concerns in his department, rather than harass us in committee here. I think the Minister would be better advised putting his time to use, for example, developing a decent AIDS policy in this province, rather than coming into this committee to harass us. I want to talk about what happened . I discussed this with the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon), who incidentally was aware of the individuals involved and some of the circumstances when I discussed it with him about one hour after it having been raised in the House . The First Minister subsequently indicated that he had talked to the senior officials , but I would like to ask if the First Minister or the Minister talked to the employees involved in those particular circumstances, either at that time, or have they talked to the employees involved subsequent to that. Mr. Connery: It would be inappropriate for the Minister to speak to those employees . There is a process for making change.

There was no harassment of the employees. Since there was only one deputy, there was a need to redeploy those two - I guess the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) does not want to hear the answer because he is not listening . Mr. Ashton: I was getting somebody who is asking me Mr. Connery: "Boxcar Harold " is not quite the one to get your advice from . There is no harassment of those employees at any one particular given time . Mr. Ashton: Have you talked to employees? Mr.

Connery: I would not talk to employees because, if they want to - there are many procedures that an employee has the right to go through to file a complaint. They can go to the Civil Service; they can go to their union ; they can go to their personnel department, if they are concerned that they are being harassed . There has been absolutely no harassment of those employees and in fact we said to the MGEA, if you think those people have been harassed and you have got a concern , then take it to the Labour Board . We would be quite pleased to have the Labour Board resolve the problem .

We feel that is the area that it should be dealt with . 3756

Monday, December 5, 1988 When it first is raised in the Legislature, rather than going through the process that you have for employees who have a concern and feel that something wrong has been done, there is an appropriate process to go through. None of these processes were pursued and it arose in the House io a political fashion, so it is quite obvious that the whole situation is of a political nature for the NOP to try to score points, and there is no question that they scored some points because the press will report something like that.

The facts of the matter are that it has never been taken to the Labour Board and they have that process of doing that . My Deputy and I have both said, if you are concerned that there has been something wrong, then there is due process and go through the due process. *

(1550) Mr. Ashton: The Minister confirmed that he has not talked to the employees involved. I think that is obvious . The First Minister (Mr. Filmon) did not talk to the employees involved , yet the First Minister went into the House, subsequent to allegations being made, and saying he had no qualms or whatsoever in saying that the allegations were unfounded . Quite obviously , the Minister and the First Minister were not interested in getting all the facts and the information .

This Minister also knows that the MGEA and the employees involved have been in discussion with the Government in terms of some of the specific concerns of the employees particularly related to the fact that senior employees have been in dead-end positions or seeking real positions under the current circumstances . If the Minister wants to make accusations involving myself, you know, I have less problem with that because I can deal with the Minister 's allegations . The allegations that were made by the employees are part of a-they are signed affidavits , Mr. Chairperson .

They are sworn affidavits outlining the circumstances that took place . They are very serious concerns that were expressed by those lo:,g-time employees in the department . He can attempt to argue in terms of credibility on this particular issue with myself, although as I said his own comments on issue about pink slips where he denied the comments in the House when they were raised by the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs . Carstairs) . He can do that if he wants, but what concerns me is the situation facing those employees .

They have been going through due process trying to negotiate back and forth between the various lawyers involved and various officials , but this Minister and the First Minister have not been interested in getting to the bottom . I even made it clear in the House tt:,at I do not like the comments about the pink slips , 'that this did not relate specifically to the Minister . I made it clear that he was not at the meeting. So I do not understand why he has not gotten to the bottom of it and I think, if he checked with the employees involved, they had been very fearful for the situation there . That

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-91a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 91a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	d9b9413dbd7a5f0f4951a5ae7b7901b449f4f49a

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