Manitoba Hansard — 13 February 1974 (Sitting 15, 30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-15

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LE GISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2: 30 o'clock, Wednesday, February 13, 1974 Opening prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 343 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 30 students of Grade 5 standing of the Riverview School. These students are under the direction of Mr. R. Roch. This school is located in the constit uency of the Honourable Member for Osborne, the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Af fair s. On behalf of all the honourable members l welcome you here today.

Presenting Petiti ons; Reading and Receiving Peti tions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements. The Honourable House Leader. TABLING OF REPORTS HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Manage ment) (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, in the temporary absence of the Minister of Public Works and the Minister of Health and Social Development, I would like to table the report of the Board of Internal Economy. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUE L USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (L ac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table the report of the Milk Control Board of Manitoba, and the first annual report of the Water Services Board for the year ending March 31, 197 3, and the annual departmental report. MR. SPEAKER: Any other reports? Ministerial Statements. Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills: Questions. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. ORAL QUE STIONS MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK ( Leader of the Official Opposition) (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question before the Orders of the Day is to the First Minister.

I wonder and it relates to the Estimates that were tabled yesterday - I realize that there will be information furn ished to the House in time - but I wonder if he can confirm that there will be no increase in the per capita grants be given to the municipalities and particularly to the urb:m areas. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Well, Mr. Speaker, it would be in a sense unusual to confirm or deny something in connection with revenues that are to be re vealed in the budget la ter in this session.

Still I believe I can do so quite properly in this case, Sir, because as the Honourable Leader of the Opposition is aware we announced last year that the unconditio nal grant formula was being revised, and is now revised, on a basis of the yield of five percent of the personal and corporate income tax to the province being payable to municipali ties. That will increase and accordi ngly there will be an increase over last year in the unconditional grants based on the formula. MR.

SPIVAK: Well, I wonder then if the Premier can confirm ttat this is the only additional support to be given to the urban areas and the municipalities. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I couldn't confirm that because that isn't correct. In addition to the natural increase in the unconditional grants due to the formula,upon which it is based, there are also grants under the Special Municipal Forgivable Loan Fund of sub stantial amounts to urban municipalitie s and other municipali ties as well. MR.

SPIVAK: I wonder then if the First Minister can confirm as a result of the studies undertaken by the government that this will mean a very substantial increase in the taxes to be levied by the urban areas, particularly in this coming year. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, that too cannot be confirmed because to a con siderable extent the level of spending is something to be determined by the decision making process of the respective urban municipalities; and furthermore of course one has to really make an assessment nationwide to see whether any increase here would be undue. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, I w onder if the light of the First Minister's statement, and in the light of the statements that the Minister of Finance has made in this House as of last week with respect to the inability of the municipalities to be able to meet their req uirements, whether in effect he has not placed as a result of the statements in this House, the municipali ties and the urban areas with an undue ....

344 February 13, 197 4 ORAL QUE STIONS MR. SPEAKER: The question is argumentative in that context. I'm sorry, it's an argumentative question in that context. The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. IAN TURNBULL (Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services) (Os borne): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The other day the Member for Lakeside asked me a question about a purchase that he had made in the basement of this building from the Canadian National Institute for the Blind.

I've had the matter investigated, I find that the attendant there, Sir, regrettably made an error; that the error has been rectified according to the Public Relations Department of the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, that the bars have been segregated now. All bars marked will be sold at the price marked; all other bars will be sold at 12 cents. I shall say to the Member for Lakeside, Sir, that I have taken the trouble to find three cents to give him as a refund for that purchase. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS (La keside): Mr.

Speaker, on a matter of personal privilege, was about to indicate to the Honourable Minister and thank him for his investigation, that it was not going to be my intention to ask for a refund, rather indeed perhaps send the Institute of the Blind a suitable donation instead. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. I. H. (IZZY) ASPER (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Health and Social Development. Can he indicate whether the government intends to extend medicare coverage to cover treatment by practicing physiotherapists in Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON.

SAUL A. MILLER (Minister of Health and Social Development ) (S even Oaks): Mr. Speaker, I'll have to take that question as notice. MR. ASPER: While the Minister is taking it as notice, I wonder if he would also take as notice and answer the question, if his department has conducted an investigation into the number of referrals by doctors to physiotherapists for treatment, and to what degree financial costs of physiotherapy is being borne by individuals as a result of it not being covered by med icare. And if I may put one which would have been my other supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, that he may take as notice, how the government accounts for the fact that referrals of patients to chiropractors is covered under medicare but referrals by doctors to physiotherapists is not covered under medicare. MR. MILLER : Well, Mr. Speaker, I take the first question as notice; I'm not prepared to take all the other questions as notice, I wouldn't want to be misunderstood. Physiotherapy is covered if one is in a hospital, that I do know.

I don't know whether any figures are avail able to me or to anyone that I would be aware of, that how many doctors are referring to how many physiotherapists patients for treatments. I'm not sure who would have those figures because if there are physiotherapists in private practice, if he is charged, that would be something between the doctor and the patient himself.

As to why the physiotherapists have not been covered and why chiropractors have been covered, that was a decision taken in this House in 1969 by the Legislature of the day, and that's the way it has been, except that I know the physiotherapists - physiotherapy is covered for someone who is getting treatment in a hospital and that's where it stands today. MR. ASPER: Well, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister . - Does the Minister regard it as an inequity in that a citizen in Manitoba can go to a chiropractor and be covered under medicare but cannot go to a physiotherapi!lt and be covered under medicare. MR.

MILLER: Well, Mr. Speaker, that's a matter of opinion whether it's inequity or not, whether the chiropractors and the physiotherapists in the same position are considered in the same way or not is really open to question. Whether physiotherapists should ever be on a fee for service

schedule is another question again; maybe they should all be employees of hospitals, in which case they would simply have one of the services provided in the hospital like nursing. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Honour able the Minister of Agriculture. I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister will undertake to have the Manitoba Hog Marketing Board supply this House with a tape of today's hog sales,

February 13, 19 74 345 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. ENNS cont'd) ... with the information of actual payments made by packers and the actual moneys paid to producers by the Board on that same day. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: I think, Mr. Speaker, that information is availabl e. The daily newspaper reports the prices at which hogs sell on a daily basis. So I don't think it requires that kind of intervention, unless I'm misreading or not hearing the honourable .member correctly. MR. ENN S: W ell, Mr . Speaker, I repeat the question and I think it's a fairly simple question.

The Manitoba Hog Marketing Board has I'm sure a daily record of purchases made by packers and equally daily records of it s moneys paid out to producers on any given day, and I'm simply asking for that information for a day. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr . Speaker, I am not sure whether this House has the authority to require a marketing board to table any information I don't think so because the marketing boards operate under the Natural Products Marketing Act and are autonomous from government. So I can't see how the House here could obligate them to table any information whatever. MR.

ENNS: A supplementary question to the Minister of Agriculture. Mr. Speaker, will the Minister consider having before the Agricult ural Committee the chairman of the Manitoba Marketing Board then as the parent organization of which members may direct specific questions dealing with the operations of this board or any other board? MR. USKI W: Mr . Speaker, I don't know whether that is possible or not. I could check into the matter. I don't recall whether there's ever been a precedent in that respect.

I don't believe any board, any producer board elected or appointed, has ever had to appear before a legislative body because that would infer some politica l interference in the affairs of the board. So I would have to check that out very carefully before I would want to give that com mi tment, Mr. Speaker. MR. ENN S: Mr. Chairman, a final supplementary question.

In view of the fact that the Chairman of the Manitoba Development Corporation, which expends some considerable amount of public moneys in this province, is prepared to come in front of a legislative com mi ttee, will then not the Minister make it a point of asking and ascertaining whether or not somebody speaking for the Manitoba Marketing -- for the boards, will appear before the Agricultural Committee when it's sitting. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I think that the proper procedure would be for the Manitoba Marketing Board to appear before a Committee of the House because that board is responsible to the government. But I think the analogy that my honourable friend introduces is not at all accurate in that the marketing boards, either appointed or elected, do not depend on public funds. They fund themselves and they run their own business, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rou ge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Mines and Resources.

Is the government presently considering the granting of funds, or the leasing of Crown lands, to the new Economic Development Corporation being formed by the President of the Manitoba Indian Brotherhood? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, there have been discussions between the government and the representatives of the Manitoba Indian Brotherhood relative to resources available for development by people in isolated communities and specifically for people representated by the Manitoba Indian Brotherhood. MR. AX'WORTHY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Could the Minister then confirm whether the government in fact has frozen the granting of independent leases to individuals on the east side of Lake Winnipeg? MR. GREEN: Ho, Mr. Speaker, there is no freezing in the commonly expected use of that term. We have continued in every area of resource to deal with resource leases with policies that change from time to time but there is no freezing in the term that would normally be understood by anybody hearing it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle· Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle - Russell): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Attorney-Ge neral. I would like to ask the Attorney- General what steps he is taking to relieve the backlog of people held in remand at Headingley Jail? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General.

346 February 13, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General) (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware that there is an undue or unusual backlog of people held in Headingley Jail in respect to re mands. I'll certainly inquire further into the question - the matter rising from the question. MR. GRAHAM: Has the Minister received any communication from people who have been held in Headingley Jail on remand in the last few weeks? MR. PA WLEY: Not that I'm able to recall.

It may be that correspondence has been received within the department from residents of Headingley JaiL Tt ere may very well, and probably because of the member's question, there may very well be correspondence but it has not been brought directly to my attention as of yet. MR. GRAHAM: A final question, Mr. Speaker, again to the Attorney-General. Can the Attorney-General investigate into the operation of Headingley Jail and find out why people that are held in remand are not given guidance and recreation facilit!es which are available to the inmates of Headingley? MR. PA WLEY: Mr.

Speaker, Headingley Jail falls under the entire area of correc tions and in Manitoba that responsibility is with the Department of Health and Social Services, so I would suspect that the Minister of Health and Social Services would take your question as notice. MR. GRA HAM: Mr. Speaker, may I then direct that question to the Minister of Health and Social Services? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I'll take the question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question was to the Minister of Northern Affairs.

He is absent and I believe this is the third time since the Session has begun that he's been absent for the question period. Now Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, I don't know who the acting Minister is and in the absence if he can be identified, I'll ask the question of him or of the First Minister. The Attorney-General says he's the acting Minister. I wonder if he can indicate whether part of the winter roads program has now completely stopped. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would have to take that question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris.

MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the Minister of Agriculture and ask him if he could tell the House the reasons why an application for a loan by Dauphin Hog Farms which had been originally approved was sub sequently rejected. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I recall that the rejection on that one was based on the lack of a more than one-year certificate from the Clean Environment Commission. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

To the First Minister relating to the Estimates that were tabled last evening. In view of the criticism in the Provincial Auditor's R•,,port of the -- or the statement that the method of presenting this information to the House in the traditional form is inadequate, could we have some assurance from the First Minister that before too long in the debate in the Es timates that he will table in the House the back-up financial data in the form recommended by the Provincial Auditor? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, there has been some misinterpretation of the Provincial Auditor's comments -I suppose largely as a result of the way in which it was presented on the front page of one of the newspapers. Let it be very clear, Sir, that the Provincial Auditor was making proposals or suggestions as to format of presentation, which I indicated in the Throne Speech Debate, this government is intending to bring forward - changes in format in the presentation of the Estimates, but in the meantime we have followed the traditional format. MR. ASPER: A supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, is the First Minister saying that he does not intend to furnish additional information but rather simply change the form in which the information is presented? MR. SCHREYER: We are proceeding department by department to make changes in the format so that in future years, starting with next year, there will be at least some departments,

February 13, 1974 347 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SCH REYER Cont'd) .. .. and eventually all, that will be - the estimates of which will be presented in a program budget system manner. In the meantime we will proceed with the format as it has existed up to now. MR. ASPER: Well, Mr. Speaker, to the First Minister.

In view of the statements that are contained in the auditor's report, relatiJJe to responsibility for spending not being effectively managed by this Assembly, will the First Minister simply indicate whether he is prepared to table, in furtherance of that worthy objective, the backup material to the Es timates so that the debate can be that much more meaningful? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, perhaps there can be some improvement in that con nection when the format is changed.

In the meantime my honourable friend is free to proceed by way of question and answer just as we have put estimates through this House for the past 100 years. MR. BOB BANMAN (La Verendrye): I direct my question to the Honourable the Minister in charge of the Manitoba Development Fund. Has the government made a fire insurance settlement with regard to Columbia Forest Products at Sprague? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the honourable member for indicating prior to us coming into the House that he wanted information on that subject.

I asked him to put the question in open house so that my own filing system will be able to take it more readily as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, my question would be to the Honourable Minister responsible for the Public Insurance Corporation. Could he inform the House if Autopac is considering reviewing its policy with respect to restricting the Autopac agents from carrying on their business in the various supermarkets and shopping centres throughout the city? HON. BILLIE URUSKI (Minister Responsible for Manitoba Insurance Corporation) (St.

George): Mr. Speaker, I would be pleased to hear representations from the Agents Associa tion whether they would want to open up this whole area of agencies, and the like. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister inform the House also the policy of Autopac with respect to providing U-Drive vehicles for policy holders whose cars are being repaired and are therefore unserviceable. MR. URUSKI: I'll take that as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce.

Can the Minister inform the House has the Misawa Home Construction Company at Gimli resumed operations? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the position as I understand it in regard to the activities of that company are in the same position as they were when the question was asked about a week ago. MR. PATRICK: I have a supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister perhaps take the question as notice if he hasn't - has the company got many houses in stock at the present time? MR. GREEN: I don't have to take it as notice, Mr. Speaker.

There are consistent panel modules, there are considerable of them in stock at the present time to my knowledge. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources and Environmental Management and it deals with the Manitoba Development Cor poration and Misawa Homes. I wonder if he can explain the nature of the special warrant given by the government to Misawa Homes in the past little while dealing with its operation. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'm unaware of a special warrant.

I am aware that there was an advance by the Manitoba Development Corporation to the Misawa Homes Corporation within the last six weeks. This advance was for the purpose of maintaining the existing op eration at its present level pending a review by the Development Corporation and Misawa Japan as to the future of the company.

348 February 13, 197 4 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPIVAK: Well then, my question to the Minister is: was the Executive Council involved in that decision? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the decision vis-a-vis this advance was discussed by the Development Corporation with the Executive Council and in accordance with guidelines as between the government and the council and the corporation, if the corporation is making an advance of moneys which were not' scheduled in the original program, it cannot make that advance without the consent of the Minister.

The corporation recommended the advance to the Minister and the Minister approved it. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, I just want to understand the Minister - does that mean that once the

schedule of loan or participation is approved, that that

schedule must be followed and no additional change can be made without the approval of the Executive Council? MR. GREEN: If it is an ad�ance, Mr. Speaker, to an existing corporation which was not included in the original projections of the company, then the Development Corporation will not make the advance without getting the approval of the Lieuten ant-Govern or-in-Council. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker11 wonder if the Minister ca:n confirm - does this apply to all loans or does it apply only in those situations in which there is equity participation. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, it is intended to apply to all loans.

Trere is presently discussion between the Development Corporation and the Minister relative to whether this should apply at a certain level of operations or whether it should apply universally. MR. SPIVAK: Well then, the Minister then is confirming that the original loan. or original . pL"oposals, are handled by the Manitoba Development Corporation as an independent board and after that decision has been made the E"Cecutive Council is involved. MR. GREEN: No, Mr.

Speaker, the Manitoba Development Corporation is a board of persons responsible for the implementation of a development program which the government accepts full responsibility for.

In accepting full responsibility for that, a board, of what I consider to be very talented and experienced people;is set up to administer this policy and they administer it in accordance with guidelines which have been established as between the board and the government, and one of those guidelines is that if the corporation is going to make a second advance to a corporation which was not included in its original anticipated program, that they will not make that advance without first advising the government and obtaining the consent of the Minister. MR. SPIVAK: Yes.

I wonder then if the Minister from these guidelines that he's refer ring to - and I think this is frankly new information to this House - has this been in operation for some time, from the very beginning as far as the government is concerned? MR. GREEN: No, Mr. Speaker, the guidelines that I'm referring to operated for a time on a less formal basis since I became responsible for the Development Corporation last February, I believe, and were formalized in the fall of this year, but there is still some dis cussion on various parts of it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister means last year.

The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I ask another question and this will be the last ques tion. Then I take it that when the Manitoba Gazette indicates an additional loan or an amount being handed to a company, or given to a company by the Manitoba Development Corporation, whether it is by way of loan or additional purchase of equity, if it's over and above the initial transaction that transaction will have had to receive the approval of the Executive Co uncil. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I have tried to put it in my words and the honourable mem ber - I would prefer if he uses it the way I said it rather than the way he has now confirmed it. I have given him what the understanding is between the Development Corporation and myself.

An additional - it can't apply in the way the honourable member has put it exactly because it is possible that the Development Corporation could take the position that it does not recom mend a certain advance and if knowing that recommendation the government says that the ad vance should be made, then the government is entitled to ask the Corporation to make that advance it being fully understood that the government is doing that on the basis of its consid erations and contrary, or not with the reco mmendation of the Manitoba Development Corpora, tion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface.

February 13, 197 4 349 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. J. PAUL MARION (St. Boniface): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask leave of this House, Mr. Speaker, to make a non-political announcement. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed? (Agreed) The Honourable Member. STATEMENT MR. MARION: Thank you.

The official activity, winte.r activity of the City of Winnipeg, will commence on Sunday with the parade of the Festival du Voyageur which starts at 2:15 at Cathedrale and Des Meurons Streets and proceeds to the Civic Centre at Main and Rupert, after which of course from Monday on to Saturday inclusive there will be a number of activities in St. Boniface that will be reminiscent of yesteryear and the joie de vivre of the former voyageurs. I would like to offer, to extend an invitation to each and every member of this House to come down and partake of these festivities.

Pm certain that they will enjoy them immensely, and if I can be of service as a guide or as a host to any of the members who have never come to St. Boniface to enjoy these festivities, I would be --(Interjection)-- no, no·

interpretations needed, no interpreters needed; Pm sure that most of our people in St. Boniface are bilingual. But really I would like to in a most warm way welcome all of the members of this House to come down and enjoy of these festivities which will be .carried on from, as I mentioned, Monday night until Saturday night; they conclude with le bal du gouvernant. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ORAL QUESTIONS cont'u MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Labour.

In view of the report released this week by the consulting firm of Marsh and McLennan which says, and I quote:"That there is risk of fire of tragic scale, exists in several Canadian cities which have high rise buildings".

In view of the increasing number of high rise buildings coming up in the City of Winnipeg, will the government be prepared to undertake a proposal to this Session of the Legislature to compel the high rise buildings to have automatic sprinkler systems and will they also bring in proposals to give financial assistance for the introduction of early warning systems and automatic sprinkler_ systems in apartment blocks in the City of Winnipeg. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Mr.

Speaker, I too read this morning's paper where there was the first indication of tt e ma tter raised by my honour able friend for Fort Rouge and I read it with a great deal of interest, as I'm sure that he did likewise. Answering the second part of the question as I understand it his question was, would we be prepared to subsidize the installation of sprinkler systems in apartment blocks. I think the answer, properly, to that, Mr.

Speaker, that at the present time I have no intentions of recommending to my colleagues in Cabinet and the government that they should subsidize the builders of apartment blocks and high rise blocks. I think this is properly a charge against the entrepreneur who is erecting the buildings. Insofar as the first part --(Interjection)-- Well I was interrupted by his Leader and maybe I can answer the question of the Member for Fort Rouge without the interjection of his Leader in order that we may have the record straight. As far as the first

part is concer ned Mr. Speaker , I have indicated publicly that I've -- I am gravely concerned insofar as high rise apartment blocks are concerned and other, whether they be business installations or high rise apartment blocks, and we are undertaking a study as to whether or uot we should make recommendations that there should be a prohibition at a certain height or an intensified sys tem of fire prevention within the blocks that are being erected. But I want to say, Mr.

Speaker, to my honourable friend that the blocks that are going up at the present time do have to conform with the federal building code as well as the local building codes of the municipalities. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Will the Minister then undertake to insure that at least as a minimum in the buildings erected by the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation that automatic sprinkler systems and improved early detection systems will be introduced. MR. PAULLEY: Again, Mr.

Speaker, I say that all buildings that are being erected by government or by private corporations have to conform with the building codes nationally, provincially, and municipally; and I don't know at the present time, Mr. Speaker, of any provincial building that is going up beyond I believe seven floors - Pm subject to correction by my colleague, the Minister of Public Works.

350 February 13, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. AXWORTHY: I'm afraid the Minister didn't quite understand the import of my question. MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR.

AXWORTHY: I'm afraid the Minister didn't understand the import of my question which is: that because present codes are inadequate would the Minister be prepared, and would this government be prepared, to bring in specific action, concrete action, to improve the safety standards in apartment blocks being built in the City of Winnipeg, and to assist those who while conforming to existing laws may need help in upgrading the safety standards and early detection devices. Now that doesn't mean - subsequently that also can mean . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, it could be just ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR: PAULLEY: It could be a matter of

interpretation or a difference of opinion as to whether or not there is inadequacy in the building codes of Canada and Manitoba in construction that's going on. It appearsthatmy honourable friend has some disagreement, He may be more proficient, or professional; in this particular area than I but I rely on those experts who have brought forward the present building codes. Insofar as retroactivity of by-laws, I explained that the other day, and I' m sure if my honourable friend --(Interjection)-- Yes, you miss a hell of a lot in here. I would suggest to my honourable friend that he read Hansard and my remarks. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, after that exchange it is with some trepidation that I ask a question of the Minister of Labour and askhim if the somewhat modest compilation of his report is because the Minister of Agriculture used up all the red ink in the printer's bureau? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: My question is to the Minister of Health and Social Development. I asked certain questions yesterday in connection with the drug substitution plan. I believe he to ok some of them as notice.

I wonder if he is in a position to give the House any additional information. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: No. Mr. Speaker, I found on going back to my of fice that I couldn't really understand the import of the questions and I decided to wait for Hansard to come out so I'd know what the Leader was talking about. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Northern Affairs I direct a question to the acting Minister and also the Minister of Tourism.

Is the government considering imposing landing fees for aircraft on northern airstrips which are controlled by the Manitoba Government? MR. SPEA KER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, the question is to the Attorney-General. MR. SPEAKER: I'm sorry. Order please. The Honourable First Minister wish to reply? MR. SCHREYER: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker. I merely want to indicate to the Honourable the Member for Portage la Prairie that we'll take his question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr.

Speaker, one of the great issues of moment is a question to the Attorney-General, the answer for which is breathlessly awaited by all of Canada. . . . . MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR. ASPER: Does the Attorney-General have any information to give to this House on the status of the appeal or the non-appeal of the Government of Manitoba to the Supreme Court of Canada on the decision in the case relative to Last Tango in Paris? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, a decision has been made not to appeal the MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for SWan River. MR. JAMES H.

BILTON (Sw an River): I too am waiting breathlessly, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed, Sir, to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs having reference to considerable correspondence from myself. Has the decision been made to extend the present

February 13, 19 74 351 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. BILTON Cont'd) ... 12-hour daily telephone service in Cowan to 24-hour regularly? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR. TURNBULL: I have the problem that is raised by the Member from Swan River under consideration. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. MARION: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Honourable the Minister of Education. I wonder if the Minister concurs with the in-house study report that was published by the Manitoba Teachers' Society respecting ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I would like to inform the Honourable Member that something that is outside of the procedures of this House makes no difference whether the Minister concurs or not and therefore should not be brought up as a question. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Finance I direct a question to the First Minister. Is the government considering this session to making changes in The Mineral Tax Act with respect to farm relatives who rent or lease the land to relatives? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: W e ll, Mr.

Speaker, I think that that would be a matter which really should be left to the Budget Address. MR. SPEAK ER: Orders of the Day; Motions. MR. GREEN: Orders for Return. ORDERS OF THE DAY- ORDERS FOR RETUR N MR. SPEAKER: Orders for Return. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honour able Member for Brandon West, THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following information:

l) what was the total amount of money spent on travelling expenses outside of Manitoba while on official business in Canada, by each Minister of the Government, in the year 1973; 2) how much was spent by each Minister on each trip; 3) the nature of the official business; 4) the names of all persons accompanying the Minister on each trip. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, perhaps I could indicate in respect of this Order for Return and all other Orders for Return that appear here that they are accepted subject to the usual constraints relating to time and cost. MR. SPEAKER: Very well. The Honourable the Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Souris Killarney, THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following informa tion:

l) how many trips were taken outside of Manitoba on official government business by Max Hofford, Chairman and General Manager of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation, and appointed Chairman of the elected board of the Manitoba Hog Producers Marketing Board; 2) what was the destination of each trip; 3) the nature of the official business; 4) the total cost of travelling for each trip; and 5) other expenses relating to each trip. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, by leave of the House I would like to move, seconded by the Member for Birtle-Russell, THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following information:

l) how many farms acquired by the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation have been disposed of, up to December 31, 1973, by

352 February 13, 1974 ORDERS FOR RETURN (MR. JORGENSON Cont'

d) a) resale;

b) lease;

c) lease option. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Bran don West, THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following information: 1) on how many occasions between January 1 and December 31, 1973, were aircraft leased, loaned or government aircraft used by the Premier and Cabinet Ministers; 2) in each instance;

a) who used the aircraft;

b) what was the type of aircraft used;

c) what stops were made by the aircraft during the period of use;

d) what was the total mileage; and

e) what was the cost to the taxpayer. 3) in each instance;

a) what were the names of all passengers on ea<:h flight; and

b) their reasons for being aboard. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, by leave, I move, seconded by the Member for Lakeside, THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following information:

l) how many farms have been acquired by the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation up to December 31 , 1973:

a) by foreclosure;

b) by direct purchase. 2) in what municipalities or local government districts are these farms located; 3) what was the total cost of purchase. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan River, THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following information: 1) what were the names of employees on the ministerial staff (including the Office of the Premier) who in 1973 submitted travelling expenses; 2) in each case, what were the amounts of travel expenses; 3) what were the destinations; and 4) the nature of the official business. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin again. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, I move, again seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan River, THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following infor mation:

l) what was the total amount spent on travelling expenses by each Minister of the Gov- ernment while on official business outside of Canada in 1973; 2) how much was spent by each Minister on each trip; 3) the destination for each trip; and 4) the nature of the official business; 5) the names of all persons accompanying the Minister on each trip. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I just want to indicate that we believe that this means the amount of public money spent by each Minister, or moneys of the Province of Manitoba. MR.

SPEAKER: After that clarification is it agreed? So ordered. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Souris-Killarney, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following information:

February 13, 1974 353 ORDERS FOR RETURN (MR. JORGENSON cont'

d) l) what surveys and/or feasibility studies have been made relative to the incorporation of Crocus Food Products Ltd. as a Crown Corporation; 2) what was the cost of those surveys and/or studies; 3) what firms or persons conducted the survey; 4) have agreements been reached with existing dairy plants for the supply of whey and skim milk for processing purposes. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. MR. EARL McKELLAR (Souris-Killarney): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lakeside, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing, for each department of government, a list of all the grants paid out during the years 1971, 19 72, 197 3. 2) the nature of each grant. 3) the recipient of each grant. 4) the address of each recipi ent. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: As I .indicated at the outset, subject to the usual constraint of time and cost, we would accept these Orders.

This particular Order, Sir, is one which I believe duplicates information already on the public record in that grants made are made by Order in- Council in most cases, and I am wondering if my honourable friend is asking here for an enumeration of those grants, including those grants that are specifically enumerated by Order in-Council, and which are on the public record. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. MR.

McKELLAR: Yes, I would say the ones that are passed by Order-in-Council are public knowledge and I guess there's really no way I could expect the government to have dup . . . . , but any other grants that are authorized through government departments, I would say that's the information I would like. MR . SPEAKER: With that clarification, is it agreed? Very well. The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. ARTHUR MOUG (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, there's been a slight error or omission in the last line, No. 6 - perhaps the word "miles" should have read "of northern roads" and I'd ask leave of the House to add that in at the present time. In subsection 6. MR. SPEAKER: Would the honourable member first of all read the total motion? MR. MOUG: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Sturgeon Creek, THAT an Order of the House do issue for Return showing the following information: 1. Total amount of miles of Northern winter roads built by Me Ke Se Construction Company Limited during the winter construction season of 197 2- 73. 2.

Contract price per mile of the above construction and actual price paid upon com pletion. 3. Total Amount of money paid to Me Ke Se Construction Company Limited during the winter construction period of 197 2-7 3 and total amount of money still due and payable for this period. 4. Cost of similar construction per mile during the winter construction season of 1970 71 and 19 71-72. 5. Cost of similar roads for moving pulp for CFI constructed by others than Me Ke Se Construction Company Limited. 6.

Total amount of miles - and this is where I wanted to insert "of northern roads" com pleted and in use as of January 31, 19 74. MR. SPEAKER: With that amendment, moved by the Honourable Member for Charles wood, seconded by the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek, the motion as read with the amendment. Is it acceptable? MR. PA WLEY: Yes, it is accepted on behalf of the Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. So ordered.

354 ADDRESS FOR PAPERS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. February 13, 1974 MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Brandon West, that an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor praying for copies of all correspondence between Government of Canada and Government of Manitoba re the Matter of Providin g Compensation to those Farmers and others in the Cowan Area who experienced financial and personal losses in Spring of 1973 due to the flooding conditions of Drake River and the Duck River. MOTION presented. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, that's agreeable subject to the existing reservations between two governments. I wonder if, and I don't have the recollection of it right now, if there is no correspondence between the Government of Canada and the Government of Manitoba, then I take it that you won't - that it won't be necessary for me to ask .Canada to release the information. We'll just give you what we've got? MR. SPEAKER: Agreed? So ordered. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan River, that an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governorpraying for copies of all correspondence between Government of Canada and Government of Manitoba, pertaining to the Deve lopment of Hillsburg Community Pasture, located in Duck Mountain Provincial Park, which is scheduled to accommodate approximately 2000 head of livestock and to be completed in about 3- 1 /2 years. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: It's agreeable, Mr.

Speaker, subject again to the concurrence of the Govern- ment of Canada, if that should prove to be necessary. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed? So ordered. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Minnedosa, that an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieuten ant-Governor praying for copies of all correspondence between the Department of Health and Social Development (or any other department of government), and the Ontario College of Physicians and/or R.

Potter regarding emergency help if Doctors in Manitoba were to withhold their services. MOTION presented and carried . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Gladstone, that an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor praying for copies of all correspondence between Mr. Toupin and/or Mr. Synder, and any province with regard to emergency help if doctors in Manitoba go on strike. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: (Agreed) So ordered.

The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, if in fact such correspondence exists, there is again the routine caveat that should be registered in any request for papers involving two or more juris dictions and that is obviously the concurrence of the other jurisdictions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader wish to indicate where we proceed. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, would you call the second reading of bills in the order in which they appear on the Order paper. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Bill No. 2. The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. SECOND READING - GOVERNMENT BILL S MR.

PA WLEY presented Bill No. 2,

an Act to amend The Department of Urban Develop ment and Municipal Affairs Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister.

February 13, 1974 355 ANNOUNCEMENT MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, before proceeding to describe in principle the matters contained in the bill, I'd like to just spend a few moments to deal with a matter which has occurred just recently within the Department of Municipal Affairs, that I would like personally to have the opportunity to say a few words about, and that is the retirement by a long- standing public servant of the Province of Manitoba and my Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs up until the 31st of January this year, Mr. McDonald, Frenchy McDonald.

I would like to simply say that during my period as Minister of Municipal Affairs, and I'm sure also during the period that Mr. McDonald served as Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs for at least two other previous Ministers of Municipal Affairs, that he left a very deep imprint upon the development and structure and understanding as to Municipal Affairs within the province, and I think that with Mr. McDonald's retirement from public service that he will leave behind a gap that will be most difficult to fill. I would like to just mentionby a little side note, that personally, Mr.

Speaker, I will find it a little bit more awkward that in the past as Minister of Municipal Affairs, I can recall district meetings and some of the Union of Manitoba municipalities, and I think honourable members probably can recall some of them, when I would be giving the report to municipal reeves and councillors, Frenchy McDonald would usually be seated in the middle of the audience and during the usual question period when very sticky questions would be asked of myself, and I wouldn't know the answer, I would quickly glance down to the audience and pick out Frenchy McDonaid and there with the slightest movement of his head either backwards - I mean sideways or up and down - I would know which direction it was safe for me to proceed in the answering of the question.

I can remember during estimate review too, when honourable members across the way would be asking questions that would be beyond my modest capacity to answer, and I would be fumbling through papers and what not, I would of course very quickly seek out Frenchy McDonald in the gallery and with the faintest signals, which were unknown to honourable members across, I would be able to indicate to him that it was urgent and desperate that I receive a message from heaven on high very quickly, and faster than anybody I know he would be able to get that message down to me in this Chamber. So, I say this, that Mr.

McDonald leaves behind a record that is rarely, I think rarely excelled and a little bit of soul within the department of Municipal Affairs, and that department is very much the better for having him as its Deputy Minister during the, I believe, six years that he served as Deputy Minister. GOVERNMENT BILL S cont'd MRo PAWLEY: The bill that we are dealing with here is one that is primarily essential for the purpose of bringing the act into the intent of executive government organization. The title to the act and the title of the department have both changed.

The Minister is not designated by title because this is not done under the above act. The second change in the bill provides for the establishment of our committee called The Municipal Advisory Committee.

Now during the past several years there has been an advisory committee which has been made up of representatives of the Union of Manitoba Municipalities, the Manitoba Urban Association, the Manitoba Secretary Treasurers Association, and we've met on a reasonably frequent basis to deal with various items of concern to government or to any one of the organizations involved; and we've dealt with many different areas.

I can think for instance this month of the Advisory Committee meeting that we'll be dealing with this month ; we're dealing with many different problems common to us all, some problems involving the Department of Mines and Na tural Resources dealing with some of the resolutions that occurred from the Union of Manitoba Municipal convention.

We're dealing for instance with the Secretary Treasurers' pension plan proposals, and also a complaint from the Union of Manitoba Municipalities for instance about the lack of legal services in rural Manitoba; and we take the occasion at these Advisory Committee meetings to invite representatives from other groups such as in this case the department, the other department that is involved, or the Law Society, to be present in order to deal with some of the problems that municipal people are discovering in their own way.

Now there has really been no legal authority, proper legal authority for such Advisory Committee meetings up until now and this bill provides that there will be in fact such a committee to encourage this continued participation and fills in some of the weaknesses of

35 6 February 13, 1974 GOVERN MENT BILLS (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) ... . the present act. For instance, the present act doesn't provide that the Mini ster of Municipal Affairs shall be a member. So this is updating and upgrading the present act, making it possible that out-of•pocket expenses for people coming into these meetings will for instance be covered.

Under the present Municipal Act the Mini ster is required to levy upon various municipalities and local government di stricts the costs of certain services such as the premium for municipal employees' bonds, the cost of providing the provincial municipal assessment, and the adminis tration of local government districts. The procedure in actually making these levies has been quite cumbersome in that the Mini ster has been required to issue a certificate and a statement with respect to the levy upon each municipality or local government district.

Several sections of the act are amended by this bill in order to make it clear that the Minister will issue one certificate rather than individ ual certificates for each municipality; such certificate will provide for all of the levies and will cause a statement of those levies to be sent to each municipality and this of course is mainly a procedural matter directed towards streamlining the procedures.

Another amendment is one that is made necessary in order to allow the Mini ster of Municipal Affairs to have sufficient discretion to carry out Recommendation No. 4 of the report of the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs to the Legislature in 19 72, and this recommend ation was as you will recall, that the burden of supporting the cost of Wi nnipeg local government district head office be removed from the residents of LGDs and be carried by the province itself. There are a number of other minor corrections which brings this act into line with changes that have been made in other legislation up to date.

This is a bill that I want to say should probably have been passed during the last session of the House but because of the pressure of events was not dealt with. In the main, it deals with structural and technical changes, and I would urge the support of the House in approval to it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Speaker, without passing comments on the actual contents of the bill which undoubtedly we will want to peruse and study, I would nonetheless like to respond and concur with the Minister with respect to his remarks re the resigning of his Deputy Minister, Mr.

McDonald - retirement. I wouldn't want the public record to show that there was any hesitation on the part of the official opposition to recognize, as indeed the Mini ster has recog nized, the outstanding service this particular man has made to the people of Manitoba, to us as members of the Opposition, to us as members of government at one time, I think it can be safely said about this man that he provided that kind of a forward and open door policy as a senior civil servant that we expect and do indeed find in most of, if not all of our senior positions of government. Mr.

McDonald' s tenure of service is one that is not only appreciated by those of us in direct contact with him in this Legis lature, but I think as was evident the other evening at a retirement dinner that both the Mini ster and myself had the pleasure of attending for a brief moment) will surely be felt in a much wider and broader circle , namely the whole of the municipal people throughout the length and breadth of this province. Mr.

McDonald brought to the office of Deputy Mini ster of this important department the kind of ongoing concern that I think really was perhaps somewhat over and above the regular call of duty you might say; the Department of Municipal Affairs with its many regional conferences and meetings in different parts of the province put a considerable extra burden on a person who was prepared to dedicate himself to that service . Mr. Frenchy McDonald as we knew him, was to be seen at virtually all these meetings.

He was respected and really liked as a friend in the civil service by all municipal people, by all politicians in this House. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for sturgeon Creek. MR. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, I would like to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for LaVerendrye, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. HOWARD PA WLEY (Mini ster of Municipal Affairs)(S elkirk) presented Bill No. 3,

An Act to amend The Local Government Districts Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I believe it was in the winter months of 197 1- 72 that the

February 13, 1974 357 GOVERNMENT BILLS (MR. PA WLEY cont'd) . . . . Municipal Affairs Committee of the Legislature, 29th Legislature, held extensive hearings throughout both the southern and the northern parts of Manitoba hearing the views , complaints and proposals of the residents of Local Government Districts.

The Local Government Districts in the main were divided into two groupings: one which was the industrial local government districts, those communities, generally mining towns, that related for their existence upon one industry whether it was a mining company or, such as in Snow Lake, or for instance upon the existence of a utility such as Manitoba Hydro in Gillam , or southern Local Government Districts which were primarily rural in nature.

I think that honourable members will recall from the briefs presented and the views expressed to the members of that committee that there was a varied reaction from one local government district to the other as to what they felt would be better done for their community. We certainly found that in some local government districts there was more or less a status quo attitude - they would express views generally satisfied with the present nature of things.

There were other local government districts that were not satisfied and indicated that they wanted to move towards greater say, greater power on the behalf of those that represented them through their advisory committees, and there were some local government district representations tended to be a consensus on some LGDs that said we would like to move into complete municipal entity status like other municipalities within the province , so there was really, one could say, no set pattern throughout the entire province.

If one was to say anything, he would find that there was more of a desire for greater power and municipal status among northern LGDs than there was, I suppose, among southern LGDs I think that all honourable members of this House would concur that we ought, as an objective and as a standard of conviction, to insure that we would bring about, as soon as we could within the province of Manitoba, circumstances by which every Manitoban would have complete, free involvement at the municipal level and that surely the concept of government-appointed administrators should be something that we would want to set aside as something that belonged to another age.

I think that's the objective that we would be all - and that was the impression that I had from the Municipal Affairs Commi ttee- the objective that all members of that committee share. Practic.ally speaking, there were areas where this at the moment would appear not to be an objective that could be realized , and in some LGDs ways and means would have to be explored further of attempting to speed up that process to the fullest self determination by people living within LGDs.

The Bill before us gives to the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council the right to transfer to the Advisory Committee of a Local Government District specific authority that may now be vested in the Resident Administrator of the Local Government District. Where the arrange ment in many Local Government Districts now brings about a similar effect, this amendment will make it possible to clearly define the authority and responsibility involved. Now we all know the responsibility of an Advisory member elected within the LGD is restricted to advising.

There is no jurisdictional responsibility either of a small or a higher level - it's simply advisory. The amendment here will make it possible that the Lieutenant-Governor in-Council will be able to transfer to Advisory Committees, and I would trust that it would bring about a change even in that connotation, resident advisory committee members, community council members , responsibilities within certain clearly defined areas for the managing and governing of the affairs of the Local Government District in which they reside.

So we would be able to move with the ultimate in practicality, within the circumstances that we are working with, to achieve the objective of self- determination for as many residents of Local Government Districts as possible. Another provision of this Bill is one which makes it mandatory that an annual meeting within the Local Government District and where there are wards, within each ward annual meetings , for the purpose of explaining to the electors of the local government district the affairs of their district.

One of the fi'ndings was that there were in many LGDs considerable misunderstanding, all introduced by the fact that there was a lack of communication between, in some cases, between advisory committee members, administrator and the residents of the Local Government District. Where we found that religiously regular meetings were held within a Local Government District to explain, there was a better attitude, a better relation ship between the residents and the administrator and the advisory committee. So that rather than leaving it as it is presently in the Local Government Districts Act, sloppy in this regard,

358 February 13 , 1974 GOVERNMENT BILLS (MR. PA WLEY cont'd) ... . this provision is to insist on the holding of regular annual meetings in the LGD as a whole and in the individual wards in order to deal with the matters pertaining to the local affairs of the district involved. The prohibition against the Local Government District borrowing money by the issue of debentures or other evidence of long-term debt for capital projects is being repealed by this Bill.

It will then be possible by Order-in- Council to make the provision of the Municipal Act dealing with the creation of such debts applicable to any Local Government District where it seems appropriate to do so. These amendments really are all the reflection of the recom mendations, I believe I can say I think unanimous, of the Committee of Municipal Affairs which held the hearings in Local Government Districts. I regret that we were not able to have this legislation dealt with last year. I think it is long overdue.

It is now quite some time, I believe a year and a half, two years, since we completed our hearings, and with the passage of this legislation I would hope then that we will be able to develop the means by which we could take each Local Government District, examine it, examine the wishes and wants of the people within that L. G. D. pertaining to municipal affairs, in order to elevate them if it's possible to a higher form of self-d etermined local government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR . ARTHUR MOUG: Thanks, Mr. Speaker.

I just wanted to make a brief comment on the Minister's remarks because certainly something has to be changed throughout all the Local Government Districts that I was part of that committee and we had visited. I think that the advisors to the Administrator are in a very, very weak position. There is no possible way that they can get any of their wants satisfied unless they happen to bump into a real good natured Minister. I know we stopped at Ste.

Rose in one of our early visits of the committee and I asked one of the advisors that had been elected some year or two years before , how the Advisory Board worked out. Well he said the day after he was elected-- and I can't use the language that he 'used, it is somewhat unparliamentary-- but he said that he had phoned the Administrator the day, after he was elected as an advisor and said that he would like to meet with him, and the Administrator told him in no uncertain terms, "If I want any advice out of you.) I'll phone you.

" So I think that it's a very weakened position in the first instance and it certainly gives nobody any initiative to go out and try and be part of the Advisory Committee and to work toward the aims, and I'm sure the committee we were on and the government today is trying to do, because I think that even right in the City of Winnipeg here the Advisory Committee have fell flat on their face in comparison with what they were some two years ago.

I know that the meeting they had out our way to set up a new Advisory group for 1973 , there was just not enough people if you had appointed them all as advisors to fill the slate, not even people coming there to watch the happenings or to nominate other people. I think that the meetings that we had in thenorth there, there was a fair turnout to some of those meetings, but I think simply because the Committee was there.

I think if it was going to be a meeting to appoint or elect advisors that they would have been poorly attended meetings as well, although in the north possibly those people find more time to go to those meetings than people would around the city, but I think from the word I got out there and from the questions I asked people, that the turnout to the meetings was always bad.

So I think that if the intent of this Bill, as the Minister says, is to take some authority from the Administrator and to delegate it to the, or put it on the shoulders of the advisors , I think this may create some interest, but as it stands now certainly the advisors are not being listened to; they serve no purpose in most cases. I think that this was the pattern that you could see right throughout the north and eastern and western portions of the province where we met with the committee · with these people in the LGDs.

I think that this may be a step in the right direction but I think that more responsibility has got to be put with the advisory groups. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. FRANK JOHNSTO N : Mr. Speaker, I would move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Morris, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. Bill No. 4. MR. PAWLEY presented Bill No. 4,

an Act to amend The Municipal Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion.

February 13 , 1974 359 GOVERNMENT BILLS MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , this is the type of bill that I was alluding to a little earlier this afternoon. Right now I wish I had Frenchy McDonald up in the gallery so I could signal to him in order to assist me in dealing with what I expect may be questions arising from the details of this bill. It' s in general very technical and procedural but it' s not the easiest bill to compre hend. The bil l deals with the qualifications of candidates for municipal councils. While the

section has been redrafted in part for better clarity, there is only one significant change in respect to qualifications of councillor s. Ther e is now provision that a councillor must reside for six months immediatel y prior to hi s nomination in the ward in which he wishes to run for office. As the law now stands, by mov ing from one ward to another within a municipality any time between approximately the first Wednesday in Apri l and the flrst Wednesday in October , a person disqualifies himself from election as a member of council for any ward in that year .

It also provides th at a candidate be a resident of the municipality for a period of not less than six months. When the new Municipal Act was pa ssed in 197 0, it pr ovided for the first time for tri- annual elections. The Act, the old Act, however , gave the municipaliti es the choice of opting out of tr i-annual elections and retaining the annual election in the case of aldermen or councillor s, and the bi- annual election in the case of mayor s and reeves.

The wording of the old Act - or the pre sent Act, I'm sorry - before this propo sed change, did not make it clear that a municipality could repeal its by- law and return to the tri- annual election if it desired, and an amendment propo sed in the pre sent bill makes it clear that the municipality can repeal its bylaw. In order to get in step, the first tri-an nual election will be held in October 1974 and the pr opo sed amendment therefore requir es a municipality wishing to switch to the tri- annual election, to pass its bylaw pri or to the first day of September 1974.

The bill also provides an amendment which deals with tre question of quorum s. The pre sent

section does not appear to allow for a situation where the quorum is reduced by reason of non-attendance pur suant to a member of council who's appealed against the decision by a court to di squalify him from office. The pre sent Act cover s the situation where a councillor may have forfeited his seat on conviction for an offense under the Act, and during the time hi s case may be under appeal he is not entitled to sit on council. The proposed amendment in this bill would empower the minister to use the provi sions provided, pending final decision on the appeal in order to reduce the quorum.

So we are allowing for a reduction i.n quorum pending the results of any appeal to the courts , arising from a disqualification of a councillor . The proposed amendment also clarifies the ambiguity concerning the day on which council holds its fir st meeting after election. The amendments also provi de for changes insofar as the use of the words "at its fir st meeting in each year". These words cause some confusion now that the fir st meeting of the council following election is not held at the first of the calendar year.

The propo sed amendment would requir e that councils being elected on the tri- annual basis would be required to comply, taking declarations of qualification and declarations of office once each three year s following the regular election. Co uncils that have retained the provi sion for election of some member s every year would be required to take the declarations annually at the fir st meeting follow ing the elections.

The bill also provides with a procedural matt er , where there is no quorum at the end of one-half hour beginning of the meeting of council, and prov ides that a meet ing may be held later the same day if there is a quorum pre sent. The bill also prov ided that the clerk shall record the re sults of each vote showing the number of votes cast in favour of and the number of votes cast against, by council. The pre sent provision is contrary to the usual practice in conducting night meetings.

Ordinarily the number of votes for and against a motion are not required to be recorded unless there has been a request for a recorded vote. This amendment was requested by the Manitoba Municipal Secretary-T rea surers Association. The Act now ma kes it mandatory for a council to advertise in the Manitoba Gazette and in a newspaper to fill the po sition of clerk , treasurer , secretary-tr easurer or manager.

This requir ement is repugnant to councils that have followed the good administrative practice of bringing along, within the staff of the municipality, persons qualified to succeed senior officers of the municipality who lead municipal service. In cases where the position is to be filled from within the staff, an advertisement as now required by the Act is misl eading to prospective applicants and may raise doubts in the minds of some residents of the community as to whether

360 Febru ary 13, 1974 GOVERNM ENT BILLS (MR . PAWLE Y cont'd) .... or not the council has full confidence in the person who is finally appointed from among the staff itself. The proposed amendment removes the mandatory requirement for council to advertise. The next amendment deals with a municipality acquiring land in another municipality. The approval of the Municipal Bo ard is now required. This should not be necessary where the rural municipality and a town are acquiring land jointly for such purposes as a regional library or , for instance, a joiat community centre.

The original intent was to provide for circum stances in which a municip ality was acquiring land in another municipality for purposes that might be contrary to or not compatible with the interests of the residents of the municipality in which the land was located. The proposed amendment means that the approval of the Municipal Bo ard is not necessa ry where two municipalities are entering into a proj ect jointly. Another amendment deals with changes in government organization and the removal of premiums for health services insurance. The next amen dment deals with questions of social assi stance.

It is the Legislative Counsel 's recommen dation that these subsections should be repealed and replaced complet ely. Another amendment deals with the amendment dealing with the procedure before passi ng borrowing bylaws. The present Act provides that after council hears re present ations for or against a proposed bylaw , it may decide not to proceed with the by-law or it may proceed and give� the bylaw first rea ding.

The proposed amendment gives council a third alternative of amen ding the bylaw , and instead of abandoning the project council can proceed again to advertise it taking into account represe ntations that it had recei ved at its hearing pursuant to first rea ding. Further amendments propose to make it clear that a council may withdraw an application for approval of a bylaw any time after it has been submitted to the Municipal Board, and that the Bo ard is not bound to hold a hearing.

The old Municipal Act also provided that a third re ading should not be given to a borrowing bylaw unless at least two weeks had elap sed since the clerk had declared the results of the voting of the ratepayers. Si nce a vote is no longer requir ed, a delay of two weeks between second and third re ading appears to serve no useful purpose and only pro longs the already lengthy procedure involved in obtaining authority for a money bylaw. It should be noted that the bylaw will already have been the subject of a hearing by council and by the Bo ard.

Further amendments re move the necessity of a municipality applying for authority to over expend its budget as long as the re venues of the, municipality are equal to the expenditures. This allows greater maneuverability in the case of program s, the cost of which is largely recoverable , such as for instance winter works. Also we have within this bill an amendment to the present Municipal Act dealing with the action which counciL may take on a local improvement bylaw after hearing repre sentations. The law at the present time allows council to give the bylaw first readi ng to proceed or to abandon the bylaw.

The proposed amendment makes it clear that instead of abandoning a pro ject the council can proc eed again to adver tise it, taking into account repre sentations that it has recei ved at its hearing. Further amendments deal with the Municipal Act in respect to making it clear that a municipa lity may withdraw its application for appro val of its bylaw at any time after it has submitted it, and that the board need not in such circumstances hold a hearing. Strangely enough, that isn't the case at the present time.

Further amendments deal with the application of insurance moneys on property which is damaged or destroyed and where taxes are unpaid. It is not now clear that insurance moneys must be applied to taxes owing on perso nal property destroyed by fire. The pr evious Municipal Act did not make this pr ovision. A further amendment provides for Leaf Rapids Corporation to pay grants in lieu of taxes. A further amendment deals with tax sale proce edings. In 1919 a group of suburban municipalities, including East St.

Pa ul, were granted by legislation exemp tion from the necessity of publishing a list of tax sale lands in a newspaper. Publication in the Ma nitoba Gazette in the case of those municipalities was sufficient. In 1934 Ros ser Municipa lity was added to this list. In 1972 all of the municipa lities but East St. Pa ul and Ro sser were eliminated. Administrative officials of the two municipalities were contacted a year ago and they said that they could see no reason why they should have this special privilege. It

February 13 , 197 4 361 GOVE RNMENT BILLS (MR. PA WLEY cont'd) .... seems reasonable that landowners from these two municipalities should have the same protection as landowners elsewhere. This amendment deals with the date upon which a tax sale must be completed in the event that it has been postponed. The present Municipal Act provides that the tax sale be held not later than the 15th day of December. It does not therefore seem reasonable that a tax sale that has been postponed should be required to be completed before the 15th day of December.

Further amendment has to do with the return that must be filed with the District Registrar of the Land Titles Office by the secretary-treasurer of the municipality with respect to tax sale lands. The Municipal Act provides that each municipality is liable to the District Registrar for all losses and damages sustained either to the Assurance Fund under The Real Property Act, or on account of incorrect certificates given by him in consequence of an error in a return The

section goes on to provide that the treasurer of the municipality is personally liable to indemnify the municipality for any loss incurred on account of such an error. However, the present

section of the Municipal Act provi des that the Minister of Finance shall pay any judg ment recovered against the District Registrar on account of an error in a certificate. The Manitoba Municipal Secre tary-Tr easurers Association points out the inconsistency between these two sections of the Municipal Act. The proposed amendment would make this provision consistent with the provisions of the City of Winnipeg Act. Now, Mr. Speaker, those are the proposed amendments in this bill. They'll require considerable research, I suspect, by members of the House.

There will be plenty of opportunity during Committee stage to deal with these amendments in more detail. I expect there will be another and possibly a second further bill containing amendments to The Municipal Act, pro bably dealing with matters of some degree more substance than these, although these are all amendments that are required in order to better streamline and develop procedures and meet the requests of the people in the field in Municipal Affairs. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F" JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I would move, seconded by the Honourable Member from LaVerendrye , that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. Bill No. 5. BILL NO. 5 MR. PAWLEY presented Bill No. 5,

an Act to amend The Garnishment Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. PA WLEY: Mr. Speaker, these amendments to the Garnishment Act are also overdue. One of the saddest plights, I think that we have in respect to the administration of justice is the fact that we have in the province, as of course everywhere else I suppose within the western hemisphere, increas ing numbers of unfortunate wives who, due to circumstances, find them selves separated from their husbands, having to maintain support for their children.

And I think within our society there is probably no other group that find it more difficult or more distressing with the burdens that they must carry to raise their family.

Now these present amendments are intended to provide some improvement, some degree of assistance in reliev ing at least some of the burden that wives must carry, particularly when they have to deal with husbands who quite frankly seem to share no sense of conscience or concern for ensuring that their family is supported and maintained; an attempt to place a little bit more teeth with in the Garnishment Act to provide some extra support to wives that find themselves within this type of situation, in order, Mr.

Speaker, to also provide some lightening of the burden upon the state where the state finds that because there are people within its jurisdiction that seem to want to chase or to maneuver out of their responsibilities by not providing support, it places additional burdens upon the public treasury.

Now these amendments provide some techniques to strengthen the Garnishment Act to assist in the placing of the responsibility for assistance where it belongs, in the husband that has been adjudged to be responsible for certain maintenance orders by the courts, and this is the start in that direction, to strengthen ing the Act in that direction. One of the first amendments provided for is one which provides that a garnishing order

362 February 13, 197 4 BILL NO. 5 (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) ... . is continuing. At the present time, the present Act follows the general rule that garnishing is effective for only seven days after service of the process, so the unfortunate wife has to have the garnishing order served presently, that garni shing order remains effective for only seven days, then lapses, she has to serve a second garnishing order or a third garnishing order, a repetitive garnishing order if the defaulting husband continues to resist payment, and this is certainly far from satisfactory.

The amendment provides that once the garnishing order is served it will continue to be effective either on a weekly or a bi-w eekly or semi-monthly or monthly basis as the case may be, so that the wife does not have to repeat the issuance of the garnishing orders and the costs that are attendant to that. The further amendment provides - and this is also a . . . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker , may I ask a question for clarification on a point the Minis ter has just rai sed, or should that properly fall into the ... MR.

SPEAKER: Well I believe it would be much more efficient to our procedures if the member kept his question for the end. The Honourable Mini ster proceed. MR. PAWLEY: A second amendment to this Act provides that a garni shing order will take precedence over other debts owed by the judgment debtor. The basic exemption of $1 00. 00 per month allowed to the judgment debtor is the present situation. This provides that the garnishing order will enjoy priority over other debts that may be garnished for by judgment debtors.

And I think considering the social, the family problems that can occur because other judgment debtors are also moving in upon a judgment debtor's assets, in this case the defaulting husband's assets, I think that we would generally welcome this type of legislation. Also the present Act, procedure in it does not provide a remedy to collect arrears in excess of one month, and another purpose of this amendment is to provide regular payments for the maintenance or alimony. I should point out here that this procedure cannot be used to collect arrears.

It can only be utilized in order to collect current payments that are owing. It should be noted that where there is an order for maintenance or alimony the only exemption allowed to a judgment debtor is $1 00. 00 per month without regard to other circ um stances. The present rule as set out in

Section 6 provides that 70 percent of the wages are exempt with a minimum of $1 00. 00 per month for a single person or a minimum of $1 65. 00 per month for a person with dependents. Mr. Speaker, I leave this Bill for consideration of the House with the amendments con tained therein. I look forward to the comments of members and also to suggestions that may be made during committee stage as to other ways by which the present Garnishment Act may be improved in respect to this area. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Mini ster a clarification question only. When he refers to the husband and wife in the many times during here, in light of the marriage that took place in the city here last night where two homosexuals were married, which one would be considered to be the wife and which one would be considered to be the husband? MR. SPEAKER: I believe the honourable member is asking for a legal opinion and that's not according to our procedures. MR.

PA WLEY: . . . in answer to the honourable member that I wish I had a legal or Frenchy McDonald up in the gallery who could very quickly get the answer down to me . MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Morris, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carr ied. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism, Recreation andCulturalAffairs. HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Tourism , Eecreation and Cultural Affairs) (Spring- field) presented Bi ll No. 14 ,

an Act to amend The Amusements Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion.

February 13, 1974 363 BILL 5 MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, the amendments to the Amusements Act being introduced remove problems experienced during the past first year of the operation of the Film Classifi cation Board. It's actually to permit schools, colleges, universities, to show certain films they now have in their film libraries without having them classified in cases where the films are used in classrooms where no admiss ion fee is charged and where the general public is not invited to attend.

The existing legislation allows for no exception to the rule that all films must be classi fied by the Film Classifi cation Board before being shown in a place of amusement. In addition, most universities, colleges, and schools already have fairly large film libraries of unclassified films. The costs would be excessive to those institutions if all these films had to be classified by the Film Classifica tion Board. While this was being done by the board, if it became necessary to do so no commercial films could be classified, the Board simply does not have the facilities or the time to do it.

If, on the other hand, these organizations wished to show films to the public and charge admission, then the film so shown would have to be classifie d. The government itself, different depart ments of government, has many films which are developed and used for promotional and/or educational purposes which have not been classified. The amendments to the Act being proposed would permit these films to be classified without a fee being charged.

Because lt is considered necessary to amend the Act in any case, it is advisable at the same time to clarify a technical legal point by including in the Act the provision for a person under the age of 18 years old in a place of amusement when a film classified as Adult, Pa rental Guidance is being shown, provi ded he has written permissi on from his parents or guardian to do so, which appears in the regu lations at present. The other amendments are to correct numbers referring to other sections of the Act which are incorrectly designated in the existing Act. Thank you. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Brandon West, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carrie d. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would propose that we now move to the Pri vate Members' Resolutions. I believe the Member for Fort Rouge wishes to introduce his--I think he's just in the ante chamber if one of the honourable members ... MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR . JORGENS ON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might just ask a question of the House Leader.

It is now 4: 20; would it be the intention to adjourn this debate at 5:20 rather than the normal closing hour of 5:30? MR . GREEN: I would think, Mr. Speaker, that by the rules we could proceed to 5:30, but if what I expect to occur occurs, then there will be probably three 20 minute speeches, and if at that time honourable members wish to adjourn I wouldn't certainly be against it. PRIVATE MEMBERS1 RESOLUTIONS MR. SPEAKER: Very well. The House has decided we are in Private Members' Hour. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Assiniboia, the following resolution:

WHEREAS the recent Provincial Election revealed a number of serious problems in the present election machinery in Manitoba; AND WHE REAS faulty enumeration of voters, inexperienced election officia ls, and unen forceable provisi ons of the Election Act resulted in unnecessary irregularities and voter dis enfranchisement; AND

WHEREAS considerable reform of the election procedures is required to make the Manitoba election system more effective, realistic and democratic; AND

WHEREAS it is in the best interests of the people of Manitoba that certain reforms be instituted at this Session of the Legislature;

NOW THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the government consider the advisability of introducing legislation to achieve the following principles:

36 4 February 13, 1974 PRIVATE MEMBERS' RESOLUTI ONS (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) . 1. There should be created a permanent Independent Electoral Commission, presided over by the Chief Justice of Manitoba, and including two other independent and non-partisan people, who would be responsible for conducting provincial elections, and be responsible for the hiring of election officers, carrying on and training and overseeing application of the Election Act; 2. There should be established a permanent voters' list; 3.

Voting should be by machine, in order to eliminate the problem of spoiled ballots and the necessity of judicial recounts and court scrutiny of ballots irregularly marked; 4. Once the official nominations have closed, a permanent advance poll should be con tinuously open which is in a location readily accessible to all who wish to vote in advance of the formal polling day. 5. Where a Returning Officer exercises his discretion to refuse an elector the right to a mail-in ballot, a system of appeals to the Electoral Commission should be permitted; 6.

That the residency requirement for eligibility to vote in a Manitoba election be reduced from twelve months residence to sixty days residence within the province; 7. The publication of the results of public opinion surveys or polls during the period after the writ has been issued for an election should be made an election offence; 8.

The Labour law of Manitoba should be amended to protect and make more available the right of all Manitobans to offer themselves as candidates for public office without fear of having their employment terminated, or thei r career potential with their employer adversely affected, including employees of the Crown, Crown corporations or Crown agencies; 9.

Immediately upon the issuance of election writs, the new Electoral Commission should send to every Manitoba voter a letter outlining their rights and privileges as a voter, including information on registration procedures, residency requirements, advance poll procedures, mail-in ballot procedures, time of voting, the residence and address of electoral officer s and all other pertinent information to ensure and encourage maximum participation in the electoral process ; 10.

That the requirements of the present legislation relative to the restrictions on the amount of spending of funds during an election campaign and disclosure of that spending be strengthened and made enforceable by the closing of existing loopholes and ambiguities; and that the maximum allowable spending between a candidate and his party be increased from the present 489 per voter allowance. 11.

That a special committee of the Legislature be immediately struck to prepare recom mendations to this House on the entire subject of campaign expenses and the extent to which these campaign expenses should be contributed to by the public whether through the provision of funds to the candidates or the provision of services, and including consideration of the allow ance of tax credit for contributions to political parties. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, thank you. I would like to begin this debate, Mr.

Speaker, by indicating that this resolution we have proposed is the consequence and result of what I co.nsider to be a fairly widespread process of consultation with members of the public and with our own party, that because we had received a number of expressions of concern during the election period about the handling of certain aspects of the election and some of the inade quacies of the present election system, we decided that we would not only seek our own counsel but seek the counsel of members of our party and therefore have discussed it in a fairly wide range, and I would like to repeat for the members of this Assembly some of the basic concerns that that process of consultation that has taken place over the last four or five months has revealed.

I think the first major reason for introducing this resolution into this House is that there is a general cli mate, both in this community and I think generally throughout the different demo cratic systems, about the present state and conduct of politics, and certainly the whole question of the political morality of our time and the ability of the voter to clearly express his choice without fear of impediment and to do so on an equal and equitable fashion, is a matter of some pronouncement in the public mind, and I think that there's a number of people who are becoming increasingly sceptical - at times even suspicious - about the effectiveness and the openness of the election system, that there is a great deal of cynicism and certainly a good deal of negative

February 13, 197 4 365 PRIVATE MEMBERS' RESO LUTIONS (MR. AXWOR THY cont'd) .... . comment from pundits and analysts and com mentators, con cerning the problem of maintaining a democratic system that is relevant to our time, and I think, Mr.

Spea ker, that reflects itself in the very specific issues of the roles during the last provincial election in the province of Manitoba, concerning specific abuses that I think mem bers, all of us who ran for election - I expect that's the only way we got here - had to face, and I would point out, for example that in the last election the number of spoiled ballots in the pro vince of Manitoba increased to the number of 2750 which is well over 1, 000 increase from the 1969 election. It's also important to notice, Mr.

Speaker, that in the case of four or five specific con stituencies the number of spoiled ballots could have changed the outcome. Now what that sug ge sts to me, Mr.

Speaker, is that in fact the spoilage of a ballot, which is to my mind the sacred right of a voter to express his or her preference - is in fact being somewhat impeded by the system, and there is obviously something wrong when there is such a very strong in crease over past election statistics, and I think that part of the problem can be attributed sim ply to the fact that times and conditions change, that we now are dealing in constituencies which are much more mobile, much more transient, where people are --they are less stable, where the information they receive about candidates is less sure; where simply by the pure act of demography there are many more elderly people now voting , simply bec ause there are far more elderly people with us; the perc entages have gone up in the last ten years from about 10 per cent of the population to close to 16 or 17 perc ent, and in some ridings, including my own, where people over 65 in some area s of the constituency amount to 25 or 30 percent, the proce dures that we have set out and conventionally been used are no longer adequate to enable for the swift dispatch and clear expression of their preference.

So I think what has been revealed is that beca use of the change in the community and the change in soci ety, that a number of the traditional measures that we have adopted or used in this province are no longer adequate. The fact that people now move much quicker means that the provisio n for advance polls and advance ballots are no longer as adequate because people just simply are not as stable or in the same place as long as they used to be.

I certainly found this again in my own riding where a number of people found that beca use of the advance poll only being a week before election, that a number of those who were going on business trips, going on vacation, or for other reasons would be away from thei r place of residence, would find it very difficult to vote, and were in fact disenfranchised. I think that this, Mr.

Speaker, is the basic principle and commit ment that we are trying to introduce in this bill - that we must guard against the disenfranchisement of every single voter of the province; that if there is one voter for some reason of an impediment in the elect oral system who is denied his right to vote, then we, the Legi slature, are not doing our job in properly being stewards and trustees of the democratic system of the province of Manitoba.

I think that is the basic thrust of this resolution, that we would ask members to consider carefully how we can adapt and revise and change the system so that we can make it relev ant to the kind of contemporary conditions we are, and to make sure that we can remove any impedi ment, any handicap, to a voter expressing his clear right. And Mr.

Speaker, I have been most impressed, as a new member of this House, listening to the declara tions of concern and commit ment by more experie nced and, I was go ing to say, more elderly members of the House but I won't use that term, about the rights of Parli ament and the rights of this House, so I think, Mr.

Sp eaker, that that is something that I hope in time I will be able to understand as well as some of my other colleagues, but what is equally impor tant is not simply the rights of this House, but the rights by which we arrive at this House, and it deserves as much attention and as much investigation and as much care and concern as mem bers display and as is applied to the protection of the proced ures and conventions of Pa rliament itself, it is equally as impo rtant to protect the rights of the voter. And so Mr.

Spea ker, in terms of the substance of our resolution, the first and major proposa l we make is the necessity to establish in the Pro vince of Manitoba an independent elect oral commission, presided over perhaps by a Chief Judge.

In doing some research on this particular aspect we find out that there are--o ther democra tic system s do use the concept of the Independent Electora l Co mmissioner, and it is designed primarily to display an independ ence, both in the administration of the Election Act, so as to completely eliminate any question of partisan advantage and to completely eliminate any suspicion that the election machinery is

366 February 13, 197 4 PRIVATE MEMBERS' RESOLUTIONS (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ..... being manipulated or being used for specific self-interested purposes of one party or the government in power. India, for example, has a form of election commissioner. The same thing is true in Great Britain where they use the Speaker of the House, who is more of a permanent Speaker than we enjoy in Canada. Other systems in Europe are also moving towards this kind of posi tion. And the importance, Mr.

Speaker, of the Independent Electoral Commiss ion is this, that not only is it an over-seeing body, but it has a capacity to employ a permanent election agency in the province, so that we are simply not forced every three or four years when an election rolls around, to gear up the machinery, to oil it up, to quickly go out and try to hire people and find someone who's prepared to be an Electoral Officer, but would under the notion of the Independent Commission provide .in the province a set of permanent election offici als, one per constituency, who would be required at least once or twice a year to take some training, to go through a review, and to be available as well for the conduct of elections whenever they're called.

So it's simply not a matter of a forced draft, of trying to get people mobilized very quickly but that you would have available people who already have some training, some under standing of the system and they can bring it into effect without any particular confusion or chaos. I must pay my compliments, Mr. Speaker, to the present officials of our election system for the way in which they are able to operate under duress and under the compulsion of very quick timing.

I think that the fact that they are able to perform as well as they do under the extreme conditions that they must operate under is a credit to them. But I think it is incum bent upon us to look at ways of eliminating those particular problems, and I think that there are a number of people in the community who are retired or semi -retired who would be more than interested and more than committed to the electoral system who would be prepared to serve as a permanent election officia l for a constituency and acquire a sense of responsibility for the conduct of those activities.

Tied in very closely with the concept of the Independent Election Commiss ion is the exist ence of a permanent voters' list. Now again, Mr.

Speaker, this is something that has been adopted increasingly by different electoral systems throughout the democratic world; and again we find that in Great Britain, for example, where there is a permanent voters 1 list which is reviewed once a year, where the election list is kept up to date, that it serves first to eliminate many of the inconsistencies and omissions that now occur under our present system where again, because of pressure of time and events, one is forced to try an enumeration in a very short period of time, when the enumerators many who try to do an honest and fair job are simply not capable of keeping with the changes.

And again, I could recount to members of this House that in my own downtown constituency, after there had been a sweep through two or three times of enumerators, there was still 50 or 60 percent of the people left off the list simply because these were people who work during the day time, live in apartment blocks and therefore were not available when that person came around to knock on their door. Now a permanent voters' list would elimi nate that problem by making sure that there would be a consistent and continuous role. Mr.

Speaker, it would also serve one other major advantage, and that is it would be available pre-municipa l elections as well, and I for one, and I think other members of this House would share with me the great dissatisfaction and in fact, great unhappiness with the conduct of the by-elections in the City of Winnipeg last year when they were using an election list that was over two years old. In my area of the ci ty, Mr. Speaker, people were - in many cases 40 and 50 percent of the people were off the voters' list.

Now to try and pretend that that is a way to conduct an honest, open situation just makes no sense at all, and therefore we feel very strongly that the introduction of a permanent voters' list is absolutely essential to our system now. Mr.

Speaker, there are many other proposals in that whole question of correcting the abuses in the system that are contained in the motion and as the passing of time goes on I unfor tunately don't have time to deal with them in great length and I hope that other members will deal with them in debate and that my colleagues in this caucus will be able to provid e greater elaboration. I did want to mention before leaving it, Mr.

Speaker, probably the knottiest and thorniest problem in the conduct of present elections is the problem of finance; how does one insure that the conduct of elections is not unduly influenced by the power of money. I think that is an issue that is uppermost in the minds of most voters and I would suggest that probably in this stage the role of money can't be eliminated, but we should look at very carefully how we can try to

February 13, 197 3 367 PRIVATE MEMBERS' RESOLUT IONS (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ..... equalize the benefits of. And I would only mention in pass ing, Mr.

Speaker, that if one looked at the last election results and correlated them with the amount of money spent, . . . there is a direct correlation between the amount of money and the results, because our friends across the way spent the most and they got the most seats; and my friends to the right spent the second most and they got the second most seats; and unfortu nately we as Liberals who must rely upon our meagre resources, well part of the results can be explained that way now. Fortunately, Mr.

Speaker, I would point out that was not the case in my own constituency where my opponents out-sp ent me by considerable sums, but that was simply an aberration which was very fortunate. What I would like to point out though, Mr. Speaker, is that the question of finance is also a ques tion that relates to the basic right of the voter to know, and in this day and age if a voter is to make a de cent and respectable choice he must have information about whom he is voting for. And that requires, Mr.

Speaker, that in this day and age when the costs of simple information are so heavy we find ways of providing support, and therefore we are recommending to this House that a special committee be set up to look at the various ways and techniques by which campaign finance can be both made more equitable and more fair in terms of a voter s' interest; and therefore we suggest that on the one hand that the government provide basic services, services which they already have, looking at things like telephone services, the right to basic information and mail ing so at least the voter knows and can be guaranteed that they will have one piece of information that says who that candidate's name is and what he stands for.

And in this day and age to - again I can use only my own riding which has close to 16, 000 or 17 , 000 electors - one mailing pretty much consumes all the money that you'r e allowed under the present financial li mitations. In other words, the provisions we have in the Ele ction Act right now are just not realistic, they just do not enable you to provide the minimum of information. The second thing we would like to recommend to this House is the require ment to encour age people to support politics which we think is a fundamental essence of democracy, by enabling them to get some allowance on their tax system.

This is a system which was introduced in the United States about three years ago, and the importance of th is, Mr. Speaker, is they have had a major impact upon encouraging and facilitating the donation of money by small, sort of small ordinary people. They are eliminating in many cases and they are finding that where as before only one or two percent of Americans would contribute to a politica l campaign is now getting much closer to 10 or 15 percent and the numbers are going up, simply because it's there and one can make a deduction and it makes some sense.

The third thing we would like to recomm end is a raising of the li mitations, simply so that it can be reali stic. The way the law now works is that it almost, and I say almost, Mr. Speaker, because I wouldn 't want to make any specific allegation, almost encourages people involved in the electoral process to break the law; that if they are to provide a basic service of information as to what they are and who they stand for and the Party they represent, then the li mitations now are far too constricting.

I think that those amongst this House who have studied the law and jurisprudence would know that the worst kind of law is the one that encour ages people to br eak it, and therefore we think that we should revise those limits to make them far more realistic. Mr. Speaker, I have come close to the end of my time, and I say unfortunately we aren't able to provide the full expansion and the full elaboration of what I think is one of the most im portant and serious issues that we could face at this session, and I would only ask the members of this House this, Mr.

Speaker, to remember that while they may in fact have disagreements with some of the specifics of the proposal, remember that what we are aiming at here is a commitment by this House to properly become stewards and trustees of the democratic elect oral system of the Province of Manitoba. We don't necessarily ask for agreement on all the specifics, but we would like the agreement of this House on the specific and basic principle that we must improve and change our electoral system to bring it up to date. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

368 February 13, 197 4 PRIVATE MEMBERS' RESOLUT IONS MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Morri s. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, without in any way rejecting the seriousness of the prob lem raised by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, I reject a good many of his recommend ations, simply because they're unworkable. It is a typical example of someone who attempts to correct a problem that does exist, and we all admit it exists, by over reaction, like killing a potato bug with a sledge hammer.

And I would like to deal with the particular suggestion that he has outlined in his resolution from 1 to 11-- deal with thos e that I want to speak on. He talks of the appointment of an Independent Ele ctoral Co mmission to supervise the divis ion of electoral boundaries within this province. Well, Sir , I've had my experience with the old method of having politi cians carve up constituencies and I've had my experience with the new method of appointed comm issions ... MR. SP EAKER: Order, please. The honourable member want to raise a point of order ? MR. AXWORTHY: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I did not recommend the development of an inde pendent Commission to devise boundaries, it's the conduct and administration of the election. MR . SPEAKER: That is not a point of order. That is a matter of explanation. MR. JORGENSON : As I say, I had my experience with both kinds and if I had my choice I would take the politi cians , because if I'm going to get carved up I want somebody who is an expert to do it, who can do it with a scalpel rather than with a hacksaw and an axe.

It seems to me that the mess in many of the boundaries that we have created in this province has been cre ated by those so-called independent comm issions, so therefore I'm a little bit afraid of indepen dent commissions, I like people to do those things who have a stake and who have a responsi bility and who has some knowledge of those things; and also people who are answerable to the elected members. Now, Sir , there are one or two things, however, that I would certainly agree with as far as the recommendations made by the honourable member concerned.

One of them is the appointment of a permanent Returning Officer. Sir, the situation that the Elector al Officer of this province had to deal with, the calling of the last election was an incredibly intolerable one. This House sat until well after 12 o' clock on the night that the election was called. The Clerk of this House, who is also the Returning Officer, worked here until I don't know how early in the morning completing the business of the House and then immediately had to start working on making the arrangements for the election. No man, Sir , should be asked to do that. A MEMBER: A woman maybe ? MR.

JORGENSON: And they want to make some arrangements and make some changes that will enable somebody to deal with an election when it is called, and almost invariably elec tions in this province are called right after the sitting of the Legislature, so it means that some body should be working in advance of the calling of that election, making the prepara tio ns; and the creation of an office of El ectoral Officer quite the reverse of what we have today.

Where you have the Cl erk of the House acting as the Chief El ectoral Officer and then get somebody in to help him, there should be a Cl erk of this House, and the sole responsibility is the Clerk of this House, and another person whose responsibility is the job of the Chief Electoral Officer, who between elections can assist the Cler k, at the same time carry on the work that is necessary to maintain those papers and that amount of work that is necessary to keep everything up to date so when an election is called it can be called without the kind of mess that V\e run across during the last election.

But, Sir, that wasn't the problem in the last election. The problem was a very simple one, it's a problem that is characteristic of this government - the appointment of people to do jobs that they were not competent to do. It's a problem throughout the gover nment service and most of the problems that they'r e encountering are a result of placing people in positions that they're not capable of fulfilling. But, Sir, even if they were, even if they were, Sir, how could you possibly expect--a nd I'll just take one example, and that in the case of Springfield--h ow could you possibly expect)where a Mrs. R. S.

Sellen on the 25th of April, she had been the Returning Officer in 1969, did a good job, and I think maybe even previous to that, she had been allowed to remain as a Returning Officer and on April 25th which was a month before the election was called>bY Order-in-Council of that date her appointment was reconfirmed; on April 25th she was notified that she was going to be the Returning Officer, and like good Returning Officers, contrary and unlike the ones that my honourable friends appointed, she went around and arranged in advance for all the enumerators, the polling places, all the work that needed to be

February 13, 197 4 369 PRIVATE MEMBERS' RESOLUTI ONS (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) ..... done in advance of the election - tha t's how you prepare for an election, you appoint somebody who knows he has that responsibility and begins to carry it out long before the election is called. Sir , if you wait, and this is what most of the Returning Officers that my honourable friends appointed, this is what they did, they waited until the elec tion writs were issued, because you see, Sir, prior to that time, they don't get paid.

They wanted to make sure that they got everything that they could out of this appointment, by waiting until the election writs were issued before they started doing any work. In my own constituency, Sir, not a single enumerator was appointed until the date the election writs were issued. And then she tried to run around by herself, driving - can you imagine driving through a constitu ency the size of Morris and attempting to get all the enumerators appointed and the lists in be fore the date they were supposed to be in so they could be printed ? I got mine two weeks after I was supposed to get the voters' list.

I never complained because I understood the situation. I've gone through this mill before and it didn't bother me too much, but I tell you it did bother those who were running for the first time. Well, Sir, on as I said, on the 25th of April Mrs. Sellen had her appointment confirmed by Order-in-C ouncil, but on the 23rd of May, which was the night before the election was called, another Order-in-C ouncil chases her out of her job and reappoints someone else, a Mrs. Margaret Isabel Richardson. That name, that name, from the Minister of Tourism and Recreati on, sounds like a very familiar one.

She was appointed the day before, there was no hope, no hope that this person could possibly go through that constituency, have the constitu ency organized, have the Returning Officers appointed and have the work done that was neces sary to do so that those who were given the responsibility of enumeration and the Returning Officers knew what they were supposed to do.

The fact is, Sir, that the Returning Officers who know what they're doing will do that job in advance, much in advance of the date of the election writs being issued, and when the election is called, all they do is place a telephone call to each one of those enumerato rs, and they say, you can start enumerating, I'll be around with the papers for you to sign and the job can begin immediately. There's no delay, there's no prob lem. But that isn't the entire answer, I'm willing to admit ; there are other problems. My honourable friend mentioned the question of spoiled ballots.

Well, I think there was a suggestion that came out of Wolseley that I thought was an excellent one, that all the ballots be printed in black, one circle, only one place that a mark could possibly go, and that would eliminate the problem of spoiled ballots . Mind you, Sir, there are some people who go to the ballot boxes to deliberately spoil ballots. I don't think we should deprive them of that fun, or of that right. There's a lot of people who want to sh ow thei r contempt for the democratic sys tem in that fashion; let them do it, who worri es.

But I suggest, Sir, that if there's going to be any effort made to remove the incidence of spoiled ballots, the suggestion that emanated out of Wolseley is about as good a one as I have ever heard. But the one problem that I find in my area is the question of people's names being missed off the voter s' list and the difficulties that they have to get their names on the list again.

I don't think there's any sense or any reason why a C ourt of Revision has to be held on a speci fic day and the person who may live 30 or 40 miles away - well, not that far, that's stretching it a little bit too far, but 20 miles away - has to drive tha t distance in order to get his name placed on the vote rs' list. Why can't he just phone in to the person who is doing the enumera tion and say, look you've missed my name off that list will you please put it on, I'm so and so. That can be verified. I don't th

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-15
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 15.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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