Manitoba Hansard — 20 April 1978 (Sitting 25B, 31st Legislature, 2nd Session)

31-2-25b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Vol. XXVI No. 258 26 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker 8:00 p.m.Thursday, April 20, 1978 Printed by P.N. Crosbie - Queen 's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, April 20, 1978 Time: 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Warren Steen: Order . Some week and a few days ago when we last left this particular Item, we left on page 10, 7. Marketing, (

b) Manitoba Marketing Board:

(1) Salaries $124,000. The Member from Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Mr. Chairman , I asked a question of the Minister in the House. The reason I asked the question in the House is that we are having some difficulty in getting answers in Committee here, and I thought perhaps if we asked the question on the floor that we might get some answers, but I was unsuccessful.

The question I asked was: In regard to the checkoff on beef, the proposed checkoff, whether it has been stated by the Minister that 85 percent of the producers at the present time are supporting the proposal that the Minister puts forth setting up a special organization that would be able to checkoff. At the time theM inister indicated that he would give us these answers in Committee and I am hopeful that he will. I would like to ask him which associations are supporting this checkoff on beef? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture . HON. JIM DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr.

Chairman , I have not checked to clarify the fact that I do not know for sure whether I said that 85 percent, that would be an estimated figure, if I did say it that was an estimate . The number of organizations that have indicated their support other than the Manitoba Cow-Calf Association, the Manitoba Beef Growers. There has certainly been indication from the Manitoba Farm Bureau, from the different organizations that there is support for the checkoff .

I do believe, however, that we are discussing the Estimates of Marketing Board of which there is no beef organization that comes under that , so I think it is the $124,000 that is in question at this time. MR. ADAM: Where would we be able to ask this question? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet on a point of order . MR. SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Chairman, on a point of order . TheMinisterallegesthat we can't discuss the question of a beef checkoff under this Item. The Manitoba Marketing Board is directly responsible over all marketing agencies appointed or elected by producers .

Therefore, under what pretext is the Minister suggesting to us that we cannot discuss the proposed beef checkoff under this Item? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , because it is not a marketing organization, in fact, it is a proposed promotion and organization to promote and do research for the livestock industries . It does not come under the control of the Manitoba Marketing Board . MR. CHAIRMAN: On the same point? MR. USKIW: Yes, on the same point. Then perhaps the Minister would care to clarify for us, under what authority such an agency would function , and who would be its supervisory body? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr.

Chairman . The supposed program would be an organization that would be certainly controlled by the beef producers themselves, as has been proposed. And the time that we'll discuss this will be when the legislation is introduced to the House on the same. MR. CHAIRMAN: On the same point? MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman, on the same point of order . The Minister of Agriculture is suggesting to us that we cannot discuss the possibility that a commodity group can organize themselves under the present Act and function under the Natural Products Marketing Act and under the supervision of the Manitoba Marketing Board .

Until that is a fact by law, taking beef out of this sphere of legislative influence , I suggest to you that the Minister is wrong , that this is indeed the only place where we can discuss marketing boards with respect to any commodity, whether they are now under the umbrella of the Marketing Act or not. MR. CHAIRMAN: On a point of order. The Member for Roblin . 1035

Thursday, April 20, 1978 MR. McKENZIE: On a point of order , Mr. Speaker , before the debate goes any farther . I would like the Minister of Agriculture to give me some background on this Jackie Skelton, this organizer for the -and I'm not sure if it was the National Farmers Union or the Manitoba Farmers Union- but certain allegations have been made on a hot-line show that she's a communist , and it was documented on this hot-line show as of yesterday , that she's a card-carrying communist and has been affiliated with that type of political organization . She's in this province stirring up all kinds of problems.

Now I ask you , Mr. Minister , does she represent the National Farmers Union or the Manitoba Farmers Union? (Interjection)- No, I'm not talking to the members opposite . Let them have their day. l'm on a point of order . I am directing my question ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Order . We had a point of order and ... -(Interjection)- Can I stop you for a moment? We are on ?.(

b) Marketing Boards. The Member for Lac du Bonnet feels that the Minister should be discussing some new legislation that he's planning to introduce, and the Minister says that it should be discussed, in his opinion, when the legislation is introduced. That is my understanding of the point of order . MR. McKENZIE: Well, Mr. Chairman , may I further my point on the point of order? This Jackie Skelton , Mr. Janssen and others have been here talking marketing boards for the last month . Now, I asked theM inister of Agriculture , who does she represent? And what is her philosophy, or where are we going? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose . . MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman , on a point of order . Honestly , Sir , what does an open-line show have to do with these estimates that we are talking about? What does an open-line show have to do with what we're discussing here? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order . To the Member for Ste. Rose, you'll notice and you 'll recall that I did stop the Member for Roblin and I tried to explain to him my understanding of the point of order, and he says, " I'm on that subject ," and away he went again . All right , back to the Member for Lac du Bonnet on his same point of order . MR. USKIW: Yes.

On that point of order , Mr. Chairman , that until the Minister removes any commodity from the jurisdiction of this Act and from the jurisdiction of the Manitoba Marketing Board , then I feel that we have the right to discuss the question of marketing boards without any restriction, whether the commodity is now operative under that

section or whether it is yet to be, or proposed to be. MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. The Member for Gladstone on the same point of order . MR. FERGUSON: Thank you . I would expect we could possibly discuss this under the same criteria as we had last year with Crocus Foods , where the former Minister of Agriculture imposed a $96,000 levy without anything from the public . MR. CHAIRMAN: Well , I am of the opinion, as Chairman, that under Marketing Boards, that we have a fairly wide latitude -(Interjection)- Can I have your attention , please?

I'm saying that I am of the opinion that when we are discussing this item of Marketing Boards that we should have a pretty broad latitude . If the Minister chooses not to answer a particular member's question , I think that's his business . And so, I think that we could now get back to Item 7.(b)

(1) Marketing Boards , and if- all right , the last Minister of Agriculture did in fact collect some ninety-some thousand dollars, as indicated by my department , for the establishment of Crocus Foods , and was refunded, I believe . But certainly was, at his wishes , certainly collected by the Manitoba Marketing Board .

I would also like to mention at this time that we are certainly in the procedure of voting on the salar ies for the Man itoba Marketing Board of $124,000, and would feel that to be able to carry on the procedures of the Provincia l Producer Marketing Board, that we should have the salaries voted for to carry on with the ones that are now in place , to talk to future legislation is not the time to do it.

In fact , there will be opportunity fo r the members opposite to certainly discuss that when it is introduced to the House , and only think that it would be proper that , in fairness to the department and the people here, that we carry on with the Estimates . MR. ADAM: Yes, Mr. Chairman , I disagree with the Minister on that point.

This is the only opportunity that we will have to discuss beef, which comes under the Natural Products Marketing Act , and this is the only item in the Estimates that we can see that we can discuss this particular situation . 1 would like to suggest to the Minister that the membership of the Cow-Calf Association is probably down so drastically , it is not anywhere near4 ,000 as he suggests . It would be lucky if there is forty . It may be less than a hundred at the present time. In fact I understand that Mr.

Friesen has made a statement , whether it is correct or not , that he doesn't even have a member in his own area that belongs to the Association, except his own membership . 1 would like to ask the Minister then if he could give us a figure of how many members there are in 1036

Thursday, April 20, 1978 the Manitoba Beef Growers? Since he is a member himself perhaps he could give us that information . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I think in fairness I don't have the exact numbers of individuals that are members of those organizations , however , I do believe that in speaking to the Manitoba Marketing , the salaries we are speaking about here, that there is no moneys certainly in here for the proposed organ ization, that in fact it is not the place to debate it, that there will be an opportunity to debate it in the House .

There are no funds in place to control the beef industry as was proposed a year ago. We do not propose a Marketing Board , which will be under the Manitoba Products Marketing Act, and certainly it is not the place to debate it. I have said many times we have individuals involved here that are doing a job of overseeing the Producers Marketing Boards, and we are discussing the salaries of those individuals . We cannot assume what will be taking place in future legislation at this time . MR. CHAIRMAN : Just before the Member from Ste. Rose starts again .

It is quite different talking about items that are within the department's day-to-day operation or trying to discuss anticipated legislation that was mentioned in the Throne Speech that the Minister hasn't introduced to the House . There are two differences and we can debate fully the Manitoba Marketing Board as far as the department's day-to-day operation is, but antic ipated legislation the re is no way the Min ister can tell you. It is a fact of life . I think the Member for Ste. Rose hasn't finished . MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman, perhaps you could clarify for the Comm ittee here, just where will this Item appear in the statutes and under what

section of the Department of Agr iculture? MR. CHAIRMAN: Well maybe the Minister can answer. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , that will be in the proposed legislation and certainly it is very difficult to discuss it now . Mr. Chairman, there is no money allocated for that particular livestock organization and certainly it is not time to debate it. MR. ADAM: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask theM inisterwhatchangesdoes he plan as far as the Hog Marketing Board is concerned?

I unde rstand that there has been some public statements made, not to the House but to the press, and I wou ld like to know just what changes are anticipated there? MR. DOWNEY: I would certainly invite the Member for Ste. Rose to certainly tell me some of the statements that have been made to the press . MR. ADAM: I am just looking at some of the items that appeared in the press. MR. DOWNEY: I would like him to look at them and read them . MR. ADAM: I understand that there is going to be a change in the bidding system of the hogs and so on. Could the Minister clarify that fo r us? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Cha irman.

I believe that is a Hog Marketing Producer Board decision, if he reads it correctly . MR. ADAM: Could the Minister give us any information on that? The Minister has been involved because the head lines said so here, page 62. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I would invite the Member for Ste. Rose to read how the Minister is involved if he is certainly indicating that he is. I would like to state at this time that it is not the intention of the present-day Minister of Agriculture to direct a Marketing Board which is certainly appointed to look after the dut ies that it set down to do , an elected board .

The Producer Board , and also the Manitoba Board , s not to certainly dictate and have the heavy hand of government on it that the last Minister of Agriculture used it for . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , on a point of privilege . MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay , state your point of privilege . MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, on a point of privilege , the Minister has just indicated that the Minister of Agriculture somehow had control of an elected body , and I would like to point out to him that there is no way, other than through the regulations that allow any group to assemble in the orderly marketing system, is there ministerial control. I would like to ask theM inister to point out to me where, since we have had an elected board, Hog Producers Marketing Board, where there was any undue interference on the part of the Minister after the Board was elected. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture. 1037

Thursday, April 20, 1978 MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , I think I could clarify the statement that I did say it was the Manitoba Marketing Board , the government arm of the marketing board , that the Minister was certainly influential in the past. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the same point? MR. USKIW: Yes, I would then ask theM inister to clarify for me what purpose is going to be served in the sense of the continuation of that agency . Since this Minister no longer wants to have any responsibility in that connection what is going to be the purpose of carrying on with the Manitoba Marketing Board? What is the role?

And is that Board responsible to theM inister , or to whom is that Board going to be responsible? MR. CHAIRMAN : The Min ister of Agriculture answer . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , the Manitoba Marketing Board is the overseer Board of all the producer Boards , and certainly has hearings from those individual boards and groups of people , and is to make a decision on the basis of the hearings that it has, and certa inly is to recommend to the Minister what they feel is the best for the producer Boards , and the control over them .

I do not say, and I do not bel ieve that it was the Minister to direct the Boards to operate to the end that the Minister's wishes are to be ... MR. USKIW : Mr. Chairman , on a po int of privilege . I want the Minister to tell me one instance because he has alleged that there has been ministerial interference in the normal operations of the Marketing Board in Manitoba- I want him to cite me an example , or I want him to withdraw that. MR. McKENZIE: That is not a point of privilege . MR. USKIW: It certainly is a po int of privilege . Let's have the facts on the table. It's a bunch of nonsense . MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman , at this particular time , I do not have any particularly documented evidence , but I do have verbal indications from members in the past, from individual people, producers , that , in fact , there was interference by the past Minister of Agriculture in the operation of the Manitoba Marketing Board , and influenced what their direction was. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , I ask the Minister again . He has made an allegation that there was ministerial intervention with respect to a producer-elected marketing agency .

I want him to tell this committee what the nature of that interference was, or he should withdraw that statement. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , I did not indicate that it was a producer-elected board that the past Minister interfered with . I did say that there was intervention by the Mi nister on the Manitoba Marketing Board - not the producer-elected board- the heavy hand over-top of influencing that Manitoba Marketing Board- not the producer elected board , the Manitoba Marketing Board which was under the direction of the the past Minister of Agriculture . MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman , the Minister of Agriculture is suggesting to us here today that he is not going to have any jurisdiction over the Manitoba Marketing Board , and if that is so, then this item should not appear on this paper , Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: I, at this time as Chairman , feel that the Member for Lac du Bonnet doesn't have a point of privilege , because I feel that the Minister has answered the question. Let's go back to the Item . The Member for Roblin , on the Item in the book . MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Chairman , I'd like the Minister to advise the committee and the agricultural industry of this province , very quickly , has the former Deputy Minister offered his name as a candidate for the NDP Party in this forthcoming Federal election? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , you should ask the Member for Roblin to quit making an ass of himself . He's already done it amply this evening . MR. McKENZIE : May I ask the second question , was he defeated in that nom ination? Mr. Chairman , I'll get off the point of order and deal with the matte r that is before us- Marketing Boards .

May I very skillfully ask the Minister , has he met with Rudy Usick in the last seven days? Has Rudy Usick been circulating a petition around th is prov ince dealing with marketing boards and matters that are of great concern to all the producers of this province? And has Rudy Usick, and I can't judge 1038

Thursday, April 20, 1978 if others of that political philosophy have, left the number one question on that circular , that they are circulating around to the producers, "Are you in favour of one Marketing Board for all the producers of this province?" I suggest to you, Mr.

Chairman, and to the Minister that I have had the occasion to meet with Rudy Usick on the last weekend , and when he was confronted with that question , "Are you in favour with one marketing board to represent all the producers of this province?" Rudy Usick said, "Yes I am" Then ~e asked him very skillfully, why are you circulating this meaningless petition, going around getting producers' signatures on this form, when that question is not on the petition? And that should be, in my opinion , Mr.

Minister, the number one question, because all this menial stuff that they have on that petition doesn't mean nothing if, in fact , that number one question is there. So when you talk to some of these producers, and this is how they've been misled bythisformerMinister, and this great philosopher from Ste. Rose, and the former Deputy Minister over the years, that they got this great judgment that they represent all the people . I tell you, Mr. Chairman , and Mr. Minister, they represent maybe 2 percent of the producers - the cattle producers . Well, let them have their wildest imaginations.

Now I want to ask you some more questions on this very gut issue, Mr. Minister, because we're being badly misled in this Legislature and in this province by this Jackie Skelton. Now I ask you again- is she a cattle producer or is she a political organizer? My information tells me, what I heard on the hot line, she's a communist and she's a political organizer for the farmer's union, and that's fair ball.

I understand that she doesn't come from Manitoba at all, she comes from another jurisdiction , but she's here and she used hours and hours of my days in my caucus and all my caucus colleagues, to try and tell me that she represents the cattle producers of this province . I submit to you, Mr. Minister , she does not. Now, let's deal with the other matter on this Referendum. And we've debated yesterday for hours, and the day before, and all weekend with this crowd. I submit to you , Mr.

Minister, that I am an MLA for Roblin constituency, and I'm sent here to deal with matters that come across this table or that Chamber in there , and I don't have to go back to the people in my constituency on a referendum any time. They sent me here for four years to represent them . I have the right to vote, and if they don't like me they can throw me out. Now these people that come to our caucus room and say that we don't have that right. I just ask you, Mr.

Minister, "Do we as MLAs have the right to stand up and vote and represent the people of our constituency , and not on every issue that comes up go back to the people for a referendum?" I submit to you , and I want your answers , Mr. Minister, I'm very very serious , because I'm tied in the horns of a dilemma, I don't know whether to believe Jackie Skelton or you . Do I have to go back and have a referendum in Roblin?

They 've sent me here three or four times, and I'm telling my people that I don 't have to go back and have a referendum , because I represent them for the next four years , and if they don't like me they can throw me out of office . - (Interjections)- Now the other thing , Mr. Minister , and I wou ld like , with leave MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . MR. McKENZIE: I would like with leave to go on beyond my twenty minutes if I could, Mr. Chairman, because this is a very important matter.

We have the MLA from Rudy 's constituency here and I would like to hear him speak about his philosophy and his wisdom in that great jurisdiction of Minnedosa . Mr. Chairman , it really annoys me whe re th is great thr ust from Ste. Rose and this former Minister that , you know , try to brainwash us with Cro cu s Foods and all these dreams of that Left Wing crowd , and are holding up this Committee here for hours and hours and hours over a matter of Marketing Board . I submit to you , Mr. Ministe r, you should call the question and say, "Join us boys ." And cattle went up four bucks yesterday .

What more do we need? Thank you , Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agr icu lture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Cha irman , I certain ly appreciate the comments and we will try and answer the questions from the honourable member . The first qu estion , I believe , did I meet with the ind ividual mentioned , and I did meet with him last Saturday evening . The question was not really put, I th ink , Mr.

Chairman, whether we agreed that we wanted a marketing board but one livestock organization or a beef cattle organization not with marketing powers , but certainly an orga nization to represent the beef cattle in Manitoba . It was a consensus that certainly the people in Man itoba needed one organiza tion . But , in fact, there was certainly concern that they would like to have a referendum .

In fact , the need for a referendum was expressed by those individuals and certa inly my answer to the fact that , do we need another vote or do the individuals involved in the livestock or the beef industry , what wou ld we in fact vote on? And certainly it is not our desire as a government to bring in a marketing board for beef cattle, but in fact to have one livestock organization in the province which would represent the beef cattle producers. It certa inly would be their own organization , funded by themselves , and controlled by themselves. And that is the question I believe .

Certainly if the members opposite will carry on to pass the Manitoba Marketing Board salaries to govern the boards that are already in place, they will have an opportunity in the very near future , I can assure them to debate the proposed legislation for a Beef Cattle Organ ization in the province . So I would certainly indicate at this time that if we could carry on and I would like to call for the vote on the Manitoba Marketing Board salaries and put it on the table at this time . 1 think it has been 1039

Thursday, April 20, 1978 debated long enough . MR. USKIW: On a point of order. Is the Minister really telling us that there is a limit to debate on his Estimates? Mr. Chairman , the Minister just finished saying that we have debated enough and he wants to put the question . I ask whether this Minister wants to limit debate on his Estimates . MR. CHAIRMAN: You 'll notice- to the Member for Lac du Bonnet- just a minute , I'm answering the Member for Lac du Bonnet. What I try to do as Chairman is keep a tally of people who indicate by a show of hands that they would like to enter the debate .

What I also try to do is when one member starts a short question and answer period with the Minister is to continue with that particular member . I am not going to call fo r the vote on the issue because the Member for Emerson has been waiting very patiently to talk , and the Member for Lac du Bonnet was the next person on the list. MR. McKENZIE: Well , Mr. Chairman , I'm still on the same point of order . MR. CHAIRMAN: All right , on the point of order . MR. McKENZIE: On the same point of order I just ask the members of this Committee , is Sam Uskiw , or the Honourable Membe r for Ste.

Rose, or- I apologize for naming him- the Member for Lac du Bonnet , are they ever going to change their minds? Never . They 'll stay here and keep us all summer debating philosophy . My gosh , we've had that jurisdiction representing in this province for eight years , and they know what the answer - they got the answer loud and clear .

The other thing , and the one that really hurts me, I never thought that the Deputy Minister, the former Deputy Minister , would offer his name as a - I never thought he was political, he's now offered his name as a candidate , he was defeated , now what more does the Member for Lac du Bonnet and the Member for Ste. Rose want? They 've lost the election . The ir Deputy Minister has offered his name as a candidate . He's been defeated . And I submit to you , Mr. Chairman , the vote be called . MR. CHAIRMAN: Well , let's get back to the item. The Member for Emerson . MR. DRIEDGER: Mr.

Chairman , I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture . Is it not true that both the president of the cow-calf operation jointly with the president of the beef growers issued a statement in the Co-operator a week ago last Friday indicating the ir support for a proposed check , volunteer check-off system , and now , to set the record straight , Mr. Chairman , the Member for Ste. Rose accused the president of the cow-calf operation of Man itoba the other day of having 3 head of cattle , and I want to set the record straight , as I did in the House the other day , he has over 300 head.

Now , in view of that kind of a statement , and , in view of the fact that the former Minister of Agriculture totally reversed his position with the broiler operators before the election till after the election , I'm just wondering what kind of validity there is in the criticism that he presents . - (Interjection)- It's a complete reversal , Mr.

Minister , and I would agree with you that actually I think the debate is sort of, you know , it could go on for months and be very meaningless because I don't think they 're qualified to really criticize some of this because they do a complete reversal and talk about things that they do not have any facts on- like from 3 to 300 difference in head of stock ; from ~ yes, we're going to sign the National Marketing Board , no, we're not after the election , this type of thing . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture . MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman , the Member for Emerson , in regard to the press release, it could be quite true. I think I did read that press release and so I suppose that it is true . I know that they've certainly indicated their support as have many individuals , and certainly in the indication that I've had from the former administration 's inquiries held across the province that the Manitoba beef producers were desirous of a self run organization representing the beef industry so -(Interjection)- The Member for Ste.

Rose says they have always been , so it is now the intent of the Progressive Conservative Government to certainly carry on and listen to the producers in the province for what has not happened in the past eight years. We're listening to them , working with them , instead of certainly having the heavy hand of government dictating to them what would certainly satisfy the whims of their socialist ideas. So I think that it is time that we did proceed and debate the Marketing Board salaries .

In answer to the Member for Lac du Bonnet who said I did call for or wo uld like to see the end of the debate , no, I certainly welcome all the debate on the Estimates that are in this coming year. I certainly look forward to prov iding programs with this money for people in the agricultural industry . I th ink it is time that they

part icipated as farm producers and farm organizations to the point where they aren't only , as I said just a few minutes ago , dictated to, but certa inly participate in this one , and the most important indus try in the Province of Man itoba . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Membe r for Lac du Bonnet's turn . 1040

Thursday, April 20, 1978 MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Roblin amuses me to no end because on this very issue he suggests that we are the elected people, elected to the Legislature to make decisions and therefore he is not interested in holding referendums on every question that comes up. I would like to remind the Member for Roblin of a meeting that took place in Grandview during the discussions , during the discussions on the last referendum, on the last question put to a referendum; namely, whether we should have a producer marketing board or not.

And it so happened thattheMemberfor Roblin was supposed to be the guest speaker at that particular meeting , Mr. Chairman , until a few people found out that I was in Dauphin , and decided to invite me to participate in that meeting. Mr.

Chairman, I would like to point out to the Member for Roblin , who has escaped us for the moment, that the guest speaker turned out to be about a two minute speaker , and that the Minister of Agriculture of the day , addressed a large crowd of about 200 or 300 people, outlining the options that were then available for the people in that referendum, not dictatorship, but a referendum on the question . The Member for Roblin stated , in his two minutes that he took up of that meeting, that he was for marketing boards if that was what the people wanted. If that's what the people wanted.

And of course the referendum was to determine whether that is what the people wanted . Now he comes here and he suggests that e don 't need a referendum, we know , after we had a very similar proposal go down to defeat in 1974, exactly this proposal , for a beef check-off to finance a beef organiz ation in this province. A MEMBER: It was a marketing board . MR. USKIW: It was not a marketing board, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order . The Member for Lac du Bonnet has the floor . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , there were two referendums for the benefit . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order . The Member for Lac du Bonnet has tue floor .

MR. USKIW: For the benefit of our newcomers , there were two referendums. One was in 1974, and that particular referendum was put together , not by the department, but by the Beef Growers Association of Manitoba . It was their terminology , their vote , and the department helped them carry it out , as is the responsibility of the department through the Manitoba Marketing Board . That question did not carry . There was opposition to it at that time , overwhelming opposition at that time to that proposal. As a matter of fact, very few people voted on it. Subsequently, Mr.

Chairman , we had another vote going all the way with a beef marketing board . That too was overwhelmingly defeated . So we had two referendums, one for a beef check-off, whose sole purpose was to finance a beef organization in Manitoba - that was the limits of their terms of reference- to finance the association. That did not carry. That went down to defeat. A MEMBER: Not overwhelmingly. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , I believe there were roughly 5,900votes that voted forth at measure, out of a registration of about 7,900. I may be out somewhat. Not very much . We have staff here that may recall the figures , Mr.

Chairman. I suggest to the Minister that we have the secretary of the Marketing Board here and he should ask him whether he could clarify for us just what the results of that referendum were. I would appreciate that contribution from the Minister if he can -(lnterjection) the first referendum, yes, and he will find out that that vote did not carry. Not only were the people disinterested and didn't bother registering for it, but those that voted were far short of their majority to have it established . So we have had two opportunities in an effort to determine what the beef growers in this province wanted.

Both of them went down to defeat, Mr. Chairman . If that was not the history , then I would not so much question the method through which this Minister is now introducing the beef check-off . But Mr. Cha irman , this Minister wants to do it by legislation . He wants to legislate , he wants to use the heavy arm of government to force people to belong to an association whether they want to or not, and he is afraid of a referendum . If he was not afraid of a referendum, he could have one tomorrow . Mr.

Chairman , this Minister is afraid to put this question to the beef producers of this province , knowing that it was defeated once, and the likelihood is that it would be defeated again . MR. DRIEDGER: It would not. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman , the Member for Emerson says it would not. I suggest to him that he should try and find out. Because if he is right, then we are all satisfied, because the majority of producers would have made a decision democratically . It would have not been something that was forced upon them by the government of this province .

That is at least a measure that should be undertaken by this Minister who claims , Mr. Chairman , to believe in a much freer society . Here we have the contradiction, the irony, that we're going to have a freer society, but he is not going to allow the producers a chance to make a decision for themselves , despite the fact that they had voted on a similar measure , and voted against it. 1041

Thursday, April 20, 1978 Mr. Chairman, there is one other irony here, and that is a very tragic thing for ou r society today. That is that not only is this Minister denying the producers to make a decision today, but he is going to take the possibility of producers ever setting up a marketing board in this prov ince under this legislation , by removing beef as a commodity under the Natural Products Marketing Act. Mr. Chairman , that is a basic discriminatory action against one commodity group. That is discrimination of the worst kind . We have it in a federal statute too .

It is not what you would call a democratic approach, because I would have assumed that all parties that believe in a democratic society would at least want to allow the producers of any commodity to make that determination . But here we have a government that is going to foreclose that opportunity. The reason they want to foreclose it, Mr. Chairman , is because they don't trust the election of officers . Yes, this Minister suggests, Mr. Chairman , that when he sets up this beef organization by legislation , that there will be an election of a board of directors . But Mr.

Chairman , he doesn 't trust the motives of people that wil l be running for that office . And therefore , Mr. Chairman , he wants to preclude in advance the possibility that that board of directors may go to the Minister of Agriculture , may go to the Manitoba Marketing Board and say, we want to extend our powers. We now want to go beyond just funding an organization. We want to do something in the area of marketing . This Minister wants to preclude them from that opportunity . Mr. Chairman, this is absolute hypocrisy . It's undemocratic, it's not worthy of a democratic system , whatever.

It's an intrusion in the affairs of the beef producers of this province who should have the right to determine that particular question by a referendum, in particular because they have already voted on it once, and they have turned it down . Therefore that makes it all the more important that we give them an opportunity to decide the question again . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I'm certainly pleased that the former Minister of Agriculture went back into history, and certainly I would like to just go back and enlighten him briefly on some of the history that did take place in the province of Manitoba , in rural Manitoba. I certainly don't think you have to look too hard- as of last October 11th, certainly to see the decision that was made by the rural people of Manitoba on how they accepted his particular philosophy and his way of certainly putting forward the programs and legislating and his way of working with farm people , and certainly the Department of Agriculture .

I would like to also compliment the Member from the Roblin constituency, when it was brought out that he was in fact invited to speak to a group of individuals in his constituency, his constituency, and that the Minister of the day was certainly appraised himself to come along and intrude into the meeting and sell the program to the individuals . .. MR USKIW: Mr. Chairman, on a point of privilege . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , on a point of privilege . The Minister of Agriculture has suggested to this Committee that the former Minister intruded upon a meeting. Mr.

Chairman, in my comments, I indicated that I had an invitation from the people who sponsored the meeting. - (lnterjection) That's correct , I was on the radio program . -(1 nterjection)- No, no, that's not the point. I was asked if I would be prepared to attend and I offered to attend . It meant an extension of my time in that area but, Mr. Chairman, it was not an intrusion, it was an invitation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , I do apologize if the member did say that he did offer to attend . I misinterpreted it that he intruded . I do apologize .

He did in fact invite himself to the meeting . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , on a point of privilege. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet, on the same poin t. MR. USKIW: No, we're not accepting that' Mr. Chairman. That's nonsense. Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Agriculture has no basis for his accusation. I have indicated that I had been invited to a meeting at Grandview and that is the sum total of it. I don't appreciate , Mr. Chairman, the kind of sidetracking, the kind of commentary around this table which is, by the way, typical of the Conservative members since they have been the government, very typtcal.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , I will go back to the po int where he did say that he was. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman , just on a point of order , I am finding it difficult to hear the Minister of Agriculture and theM inister for Lac du Bonnet for all sorts of interruptions by other members around the table . 1042

Thursday, April 20, 1978 MR. CHAIRMAN: Well , it's been that way all night ; you should have joined us earlier . TheMinisterof Agriculture . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , for clarification for the Member for Selkirk , I do believe it is the "Member " for Lac du Bonnet , and not the "Minister" if I heard him wrong , because it is difficult to hear.

I just would I ike to clarify that I did think that I heard the Member for Lac du Bonnet say that the Member for Roblin was invited as guest speaker and in fact he found his way to the meeting by invitation after the individuals knowing that he was in the area, whether that be classif ied as intrusion or self-invitation, but he appeared at the meeting .

The meeting , in fact , was certainly in regard to the implementation of a compulsory marketing board by the government of the day and the Member for Roblin spoke certainly with his philosophy and he, in two minutes , certainly had the following of, well , I guess in proportion to the province , he had 77 percent of the people supporting his ideas. The Minister of the day spoke for quite a long time, as indicated by the member himself, and he picked up approximately 23 percent of the people .

So I do think that we have to give a lot of credit to the Member for Roblin , in factthat in two minutes he certainly could say what the last Min ister of Agriculture said in many minutes .

So we will carry on from there to some of the facts that were brought out , that in fact in that 1974 referendum , there were seven thousand and some voters of which approximately five thousand and some voted on a promotion program for the beef producers in Manitoba, that at that time, which was in fact not particularly in line with the proposal that is today, butut it was handled by the Manitoba Producers Marketing Board , or The Natural Products Marketing Act , which in fact is not our proposal.

Our proposal is to remove it from The Natural Products Marketing Act, which in fact was not voted on at that time but was indicated on March of 1977 that 77 percent of the fourteen thousand and some eligible to vote , of which twelve thousand and some defeated that marketing board philosophy by 77 percent. Let us go back a little further into history which the ind ivid ual talks about the implementation of programs .

Certainly the records show that when the compuls ion of marketing hogs through the indication that the Ministe r had said previous , that he did not certainly influence the Producer Marketing Board , I do believe it was his direction that all hogs in the Province of Manitoba go through on a compu lsory basis through the Man itoba Producer Hog Market ing Board , that in fact it was legislated or certainly compelled by him to do so, that they did not have a voluntary marketing system but in fact he instructed them that that was what they had to do. And from that time forward, Mr.

Chairman , the production of hogs in the province has certainly declined. I would like to say that probably there are more reasons than the compulsory , but that was one of the reasons that certain producers quit the hog marketing business because it was the heavy hand of government getting directly involved in the marketing of the producer 's produc t. I think we can look at all the commodit ies that the ind ividual opposite was involved in and certainly did not have the complete desires of those people produc ing those products . When he talks about int rusion by himself , I think I have indicated one

part icularly good case and that's the Producer Hog Market ing Board where he did influence what happened with that particular board . I would also like to say, Mr. Chairman , that we are at this time not certainly dictating to the farm people and the farm organizations . We are discussing things with them and when he says, he makes a comment that we are going to remove that -I do not say that we are going to remove that. I do believe that we will discuss it. This is what the Manitoba Marketing Board is to discuss with them .

That is why we are certainly asking for the $124,000 for wages for the individuals who are working for the government at this time and controlling the producer marketing boards or in fact working with them as the overseer body of them and certainly relates to the Minister of Agriculture . So I think, Mr. Chairman, when we get back to the salaries involved that we are debating , the people who are employed by the Manitoba Marketing Board , it is a structure in place and we certainly need the people to carry on with the objectives of the producer boards . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pemb ina is next on my list.

MR. ORCHARD: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . I have two questions . First of all , can the Minister of Agriculture indicate the nature of the vote for a beef checkoff in 197 4? Was not the vote as to whether the producers were in favour of a compulsory checkoff and today we are talking about a voluntary checkoff? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , I have said this many times , that when the legislation is placed on the table , there will be a good opportunity to debate it.

I do believe , and I can state at this time that the main difference in that particular referendum is the fact that the beef producers organization would have been placed and remained under The Natural Products Marketing Act which in fact at any time the government of the day or any day would have been able to implement at their wishes , a compulsory market ing board , which in fact the 1977 vote pointed out very clearly that it was not the desire of the beef producers of Manitoba to have any need for any compulsion of a marketing board or any danger of it until in fact it is debated through the Leg islat ive Assembly in the Province of Manitoba . 1043

Thursday, April 20, 1978 MR.

ORCHARD: The second question: I find some of the dicussion regarding marketing boards, particularly some of the comments from the Member for Lac du Bonnet rather strange to follow.ln his earlier statements both here and in the House , he indicates that contrary to what the Member for Emerson would indicate was an election promise or an election statement that he would sign the poultry marketing agreement , and now , because of some event, maybe on October 11th, he has changed his heart and all of a sudden is finding Manitoba participat ion in the National Poultry Marketing Agency somewhat abhorrent.

I find his position rather untenable when it comes to the vote on Manitoba marketing boards because if the Poultry Marketing Board turned into a money press or a printing press to make money for the major corporations in poultry production in Manitoba via the marketing board , I find the Member for Lac du Bonnet is going to have a great deal of difficulty voting "yes " to an appropriation for $124,000 worth of salaries supporting Manitoba marketing boards when in fact they can turn into this evil and very despised , according to what he has said over the last couple of months , method of making corporations the dominant force in food production .

If that is where the member's logic lies and how he finds marketing boards to be quite evil now when he is not in power and doesn't have to make the decisions, I think he is going to really be tearing himself apart when it comes to voting the appropriation of $124,000 for such a corporate-mongering type of an organization . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose is next. MR. ADAM: Thank you . Mr.

Chairman , I was prepared a half-hour ago to move away from this particular topic but , Sir , you allowed the Member for Roblin to bring it back in, to the delight of the Minister of Agriculture who kept it going for another half-hour . So I would just like to say, Sir , that since you have allowed it back into the discussion here , perhaps we should carry on a little longer . I would like to say that for the last eight years we have heard the favourite cliche of the Conservative party and that is, "freedom of choice. " That is one of their cliches .

Now we find , Sir, that the Minister does not follow this very very favourable cliche that the Conservatives have been using for so many years , this freedom of choice . The checkoff , as I see it, will be compulsory ; it will be automatic , we are told . I have all the press and the statements that the Minister has made himself at the Manitoba Stock Growers meetings that he attends quite regularly . I want to say that it is supposed to be an automatic checkoff of the shipper or the producer 's returns. Therefore it becomes compulsory .

It will necessitate spending time and money to try and ask for your money back again , stamps and time and money . And it will be, of course , worthwhile for a large shipper to write in for his refund but I suspect that many small shippers will not bother with it so you will end up with the large shippers asking for their refunds and the small shippers not. Now , I would like to ask, you know , the Minister is trying to leave the impress ion that he has unanimous support , or almost unanimous support for this kind of a proposal.

I suggest to him that if that is the case, he would not have the Member for Roblin , the Member for Birtle-Russell and he himself out in the country drumming up support for this kind of a proposal if he was so sure of his ground . I understand the Canadian agriculture movement is also opposed to this proposal. I suggest to you, Sir, very likely, I think the independent livestock producers are also opposed .

So you have two organizat ions already , I believe , that are in opposition and I believe also that the majority of the members of the Manitoba Cow-Calf Association are also opposed, except for the leader who has been seconded from the Manitoba Beef Growers . A MEMBER: Idle speculati on. MR. ADAM : There's no specula tion about that whatsoever. I am suggesting to you , Sir , there is more than what meets the eye behind this and I would suggest to the Minister that you would be well advised to have the vote on it because it was turned down in 1974.

If he in fact believes in freedom of choice that we have heard so much about from the Conservative members , well , here is his chance to prove and practise what he preaches , or practise what he preached. But getting back to this hog marketing, I am reading from an

article here . .. MR. CHAIRMAN: The subject is Marketing Boards . As long as you mention marketing boards at least once every five minutes , I won 't rule you out of order. You know , if we don't have a little fun in this Committee , we will never keep a quorum ; they will all want to go back into the other one. The Member for Ste. Rose . MR. ADAM: The Minister 's name is mentioned throughout th is

article here, and one of the paragraphs indicates that the processors- the meat processors say that hog prices are too high in Manitoba , and I'm just wondering , does the Minister subscribe to this since his name is all throughout this article? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , the mention is that my name is mentioned all through a newspaper

article - I certainly have no control over what people print in newspapers and I do not - 1044

Thursday, April 20, 1978 (Interjections)- could I have order please, Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman , they did , in fact, write my name in the paper and I certainly do not believe that hog prices are too high , and I don 't believe that , if the

article were read , I never indicated or said it in anyth ing that I indicated to that meeting , and certainly would look forward to improved prices in all commod ities in agriculture for the large and small producers , the ind ividuals who are certainly the major part of the Province of Manitoba and add to the basic industry in the province.

So I do not believe that anywhere in that article, that I have indicated that that is the case, but certain ly I do not have any control over what is written and I do not believe that it is stated that I have said that, and I did not say it, and in fact I would like to see continued strong prices for all agriculture commodities. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson is next on my list. The Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman , I was late coming in, and from the debate I have heard here tonight dealing with the Manitoba Marketing Board , and insofar as the particular Bill that theM inister is going to bring into the House , I would suggest that that would be the place to debate that so far as that is concerned, and I think what we are concerned about is the salaries for those people, as the Minister indicated , in regards to the Manitoba Marketing Board .

If there is some area of complaints about the way that Marketing Board is operating , I would suggest the members would be justified in making some comments or even criticisms . But I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we should get on with Estimates, and deal with the subject at hand. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(b)(1)-pass- The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, in listening to the Minister respond to my last contribution, I find it rather interesting that he has not been fully informed either by his colleagues or even by the staff who were in charge of the particular referendum in 1977.

The Minister expressed the view that his colleague , the Member for Roblin , and I were somehow on opposite ends on that question . As a matter of fact , in the time that I took at that particular meeting, I didn't make one statement that supported the proposal that the producers were voting on. All of the meetings that were held by myself , in that particular campaign , had to do with explaining to the producers the question that was before them - why are we having a referendum , what is the meaning , what will be the meaning of the results of that referendum in that the decision was their own .

The departmental resources were not used in promoting the concept. As a matter of fact , Mr. Chairman , the departmental people were advised to stay away from it, because it was controversial , and that we didn 't want to have the department accused of having taken any particular position on the question. -(lnterjections)- MR. HYDE: Who mailed out all the pamphlets? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please , order please . The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: The department, Mr.

Chairman , at no time , suggested to the producers that they should vote for the measure , they merely illustrated the reason for the question being put , the history of the research that went into the formu lation of the question , and that the decision was purely the decision of the beef producers of this provin ce. And that was the role that I played in any meetings that I was invited to , and in particular the one in Grandview . At no time , in that evening , did I suggest to anyone that they should vote for that

part icu lar measure , and so the Minister of Agriculture should note that for any future debate , that it was not a questio n of the Conservat ives with one point of view , and the New Democrats with another point of view . Logically , I think it's fair to say, that , yes, as an individua l, I believe in the concept of orderly marketing of agricultural products , but I also believe that where there is no consensus , no visible consensus on the question , that that can best be decided by the people who are going to be affected by it, and that is why we had two referendums .

Because it was my view, in spite of the fact that the committee of farmers - committee of twelve - recommended that we implement the measu re withou t a referendum , despite that recommendation, Mr. Chairman , it was my decision to have a referendum because I didn 't believe . MR. DOWNEY: Not on the recommendation . MR. USKIW: Oh yes, because I didn 't believe , Mr. Chairman , that there was enough consensus out in the countryside on such a fundamental chang e in marketing of beef in Manitoba . That is the reason for the referendum.

It would have been much easier , on the part of the government , to have gone ahead with the recommendations of the committee - much easier , Mr. Chairman, much easier- because the committee did recommend that we should move ahead with a partial approach until we had an elected board , and at that stage we cou ld go all the way with a full-fledged marketing board operation .. And since , Mr.

Chairman , we were moving on that question from Day 1, with an elected Board , that we weren 't even proposing to appoint an interim Board , a provisional Board , that it was to be elected from Day 1, therefore the total question was put and all its ramifications spelled out. None 1045

Thursday, April 20, 1978 of the implications were hidden , Mr. Chairman . They were spelled out very precisely so that people would have an opportunity to make a decision based on all of the facts that were available at that particular time . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa . What's your point of order ? MR. DAVID BLAKE: Mr. Chairman , we have discussed this thing in the last half hour, this same point has been discussed over and over and over again .

I suggest that the former Minister of Agriculture is fil ibustering this particular Item , and surely the comm ittee can move along to some more important business as far as the department Estimates are concerned . We've listened to this story over and over and over again , it has become a broken record , and I know we are not going to stifle debate in this committee , but it has become absolutely ludicrous to sit here and listen to the former Minister and the Membe r for Ste . Rose repeat the same argument over and over and over again .

They got their answer in the rural areas last October 11th , and they refuse to accept it. Now , I suggest , Mr. Chairman , that we try and move things along to some more productive debate than what we've been hearing in the past half-hour or hour . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet on a point of order . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , in my twelve , thirteen or fourteen sessions , I can 't remember , I don 't recall ever, Mr. Chairman , where a member of the Assembly has suggested that there should be a termination of debate . Never , Mr. Chairman.

I find that appalling , that this government is now trying to stifle debate . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Selkirk on the same point. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman , I'm amazed with the Member for Minnedosa , because like the Member for Lac du Bonnet in the pasteightyears , I do not recall of any instance where there has been an attempt to terminate Estimate review with regard to any department.

All it demonstrates to me is that the Member for Lac du Bonnet , in his logical fashion , must very well be getting to the Member for Minnedosa, and the Member for Minnedosa must be commencing to feel some embarrassment by some of the inconsistent and illogical positions that he and his party have been accepting . MR. CHAIRMAN: For the benefit of the Member for Selkirk , I have been as fair as I can to everybody here and I've tried once in an hour and fifteen minutes to put the question , so I am not trying to stop the debate . The Member for Lac du Bonnet back on the subject. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman , I would now like to ask the Minister of Agriculture , how does he interpret the role of the Manitoba Marketing Board? What is their function? Who do they report to? Who gives them direction? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Min ister of Agriculture . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , Number 1, they report to the Minister of Agriculture ; their function is to oversee the Producer Marketing Board , that's Number 2; what was the third question? ' MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. Would you repeat your questions please? MR. USKIW: What is their role? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , to oversee the Producer Marketing Board .

I'd like to speak to one other thing . I think , of course , to go back to the Man itoba Marketing Board, the purpose is to pass the salaries of the individuals who are involved in the Manitoba Marketing Board .

I wou ld just like to bring forward what the Member for Emerson certainly clearly indicated some days ago , what in fact the last Minister of Agriculture in the Province of Manitoba and in the last administration had said at a meeting prior the last elect ion , that in fact if he were elected , he would certa inly be signatory to the Nat ional Bro iler Ag reement , and in fac t has completely reversed his position since not winning in the last election as government.

So , I think , some of the things that he is indicating here , if it holds true to what is on the record , certainly brought forward by the Meer for Emerson , I think we have to question some of the th ings that are certainly being stated by the Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , I gather , and I would like the Minis ter to correct me, that it's his

interpretation that the Manitoba Marketing Board reports to him . Is it his inte ntion that the Manitoba Marketing Board follow any poli cies laid down by the Government of Man itoba? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , as I've ind icated , it is certainly the responsibil ity of the Manitoba Market ing Board to report to th e Minister of Agriculture. 1046

Thursday, April 20, 1978 MR. USKIW: I asked the Minister, is it the responsibility of the Marketing Board to follow the policies laid down by the Government of Manitoba and in particular , the Minister of Agriculture? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , as I have indicated, it is their responsibility to report to the Minister of Agr iculture and work under the regulations that are laid down for them , and advise the Minister on what they recommend. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I now ask the Minister whether that isn't undue interference on the part of the Minister in presuming to have the Manitoba Marketing Board report to him , and to take direction from him from time to time . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , I did not say that. I said it was the responsibility of the Manitoba Marketing Board to report to the Minister . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicated that the Board would have to function in accordance with the regulations provided to them by theM inister of Agriculture, and the Lieutenant Governor in Council.

I now ask him whether they are going to be exempt from having that kind of surveillance from the Minister and the Lieutenant-Governor in Council? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, no they are not. MR. USKIW: Well then, Mr. Chairman, I would liketheMinisterto answer me why he suggested that the same role that was played by the last Minister was, indeed, a dominant role and a dictatorial role over the Manitoba Marketing Board? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I believe it is very easy to clarify that they were acting under the regulations as laid down by an Order in Council , in fact , they will not be trying to promote the philosophy of government but , in fact, acting under the regulations of government. MR. USKIW: Can the Minister of Agriculture cite to me, Mr. Chairman , an example of any change in the terms of reference that the Manitoba Marketing Board now operates under compared to what it did six months ago? Come on, tell us what the changes are. A bunch of nonsense. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture . MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I would say that it would be quite fair to say there are no proposed regulatory changes, no changes in that regard and certainly as I have said the Manitoba Marketing Board or the overseer board of the Producer Market ing Boards listening to recommendations from those Producer Marketing Boards , and in fact if the Man itoba Marketing Board is doing the job, it will recommend to the Minister what probably are the desires of the Producer Marketing Boards and then could be acted upon.

It is not in fact in reverse as I have indicated the previous Minister has done, it was in the reverse that the philosophy of that previous Minister was to dictate to the Board and to the Producer Boards what his desires were. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable ember for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: On a point of privilege, Mr. Chairman , this Minister only a few moments ago failed to produce any shred of evidence to suggest that. I asked him to do so, and, Mr. Chairman ' this Minister corrected himself on a very similar statement here this evening . Now he repeats it again . Mr.

Chairman , I don 't believe that this Minister knows what he is saying here tonight. Secondly, I want to ask him whether it is his intention to allow the Manitoba Marketing Board to function independently of the Minister of Agriculture , so that there would be no ministerial interference . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , I have stated many times, I do not feel that when he is questioning the credibility of the present day Minister of Agricultu re when we have evidence of his. MR. USKIW: Well show us the evidence . MR.

DOWNEY: Well I have pointed out the interference with the Producer Marketing Board, in fact with his direction to certainly make it a compulsory marketing board , that all producers had to market their hogs through the Producer Market ing Board No. 1.

It is also in regard to the last statement that I have stated many times that it is the Manitoba Marketing Board that recommends to theMinisterthe desires of the Producer Marketing Board and the Minister at that time can certainly make the final decision but not in reverse- the Minister tell the Marketing Board to tell the Producer Board of his particular philosophy and desires and I th ink I have stated that many times and certainly would hope that we could carry on and certainly discuss the salaries that are before us in the Manitoba Marketing Board . 1047

Thursday, April 20, 1978 MR. USKIW: You don 't wan.t to discuss substa':lc.e, you just want to talk about salar ies. We're talking about much more than salanes. Mr.

Cha1rman, 1t IS very amusing to watch the Minister try to squirm out of some of his own statements . . 1 would like to now deal with the comments made by a number of people here and in particular 1 bel1eve the Member for Emerson havmg to do , and indeed the Minister made some comments with regard to this , having to do with a mee~ing held during the election campaign with broiler producers, wherem 1t 1s alleged that I had committed the government to signing a national broiler marketing plan . Now , Mr. Cha 1rman , that was not so. We had a meeting in Grunthal there were a good number of producers there , Mr.

Chairman. ' MR. DRIEDGER: Point of order , Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson . MR. USKIW: What's the point of order , Mr. Chairman? MR. DRI.EDGER: I wonder , in view of what the Minister just said , can 1 bring witnesses to su.bstant1ate h1s statements here, or h~w d.o I substantiate it. Right here now , it's word against word , th1s type of th1ng and I would l1ke to bnng m the people that he talked with and have him substantiate the statements that he made here.

That he promised that he would sign it before December and after the election he stood up and the announcement was made by the present Minister of Agriculture he said he would have never signed it. ' MR. CHAIRMAN: I would think that's a disagreement of opinion rather than a point of order . Back to the Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , I tried to illustrate for members opposite but perhaps I shouldn 't fault them, they haven 't been around that long and they don 't know how things functio n. But they will learn .. Mr.

Cha 1rman , after they have made a numuer of errors , they will learn how the system funct1ons . Mr. Chairman , at that particular meeting , I was asked why I was refusing to sign the national broiler marketing plan . Not that I went there to tell them I was going to sign it, I was called there to explain why I was not signing it, Mr. Chairman . And the opportunity to sign it , Mr. Chairman , was in July at the Victoria Conference of Ministers . And at that time , we decided that we wo uld not sign that agreement.

And we raised a couple of objec tions ; we raised a number of objections , but two were very important to us. One was, that within the plan was a provision that would give cons ideration to provincial self sufficiency , an argument that we fought in Ottawa with the Federal Government when they tried to bring that measure into their legislation when the original legislation was passed in the House of Commons , and were successful in deleting that reference from the Nat ional Act, Mr. Chairman .

We were not about to compromise our position with respect to one commodity after having fought for so long to make sure that that is not the way in which we are going to share the Canadian market with respect to any commodity . So that was one provision that was unacceptable to us and we were not prepared to sign that document , as long as that provision was there. The other one had to do with a reference to quota values and we were not prepared to sign a national marketing agreement for broilers that spelled out any possibility of quota values because , Mr. Chairman , it is our

interpretation that that in the end results in increasing the cost of production and making the industry less competitive and therefore we would have never signed the document that would allow , that in fact not only allow but would enshrine in the agreement a measure for quota values . Those are two very serious objections on our part. The meeting in G runthal , I had indicated , and again , we spent about an hour or two together , I had indicated that we could not sign the agreement as it was presently worded .

Secondly , had we been successful to change the wo rding , I wouldn 't have wanted to allow an agreement to take place that would provide for a monopolistic situation , as it existed then in Manitob8 to continue . And the example I raise has to do with poultry , with eggs, rather . When we set up the Egg Marketing Board in Canada on a national basis and indeed in Manitoba , Mr. Chairman , we asked the big people to step aside . A MEMBER: I don 't doubt that. MR. USKIW: That's right , we did .

We put a limit of 25,000 hens on a unit of production so that we would have more units of production in Manitoba and so, Mr. Chairman , that the industry would not be concent rated in the hands of a few people . Mr. Chairman , I can tel l you I have great compliments tog ive to Labatt's and Ogilvie 's. Real compliments , Mr. Chairman . I'll tell you why. Because they were about the largest egg producer in Manitoba , and their man came here, I believe his name was Peter Arnold who is now deceased , the late Peter Arnold , and he said to me, "Mr.

Minister , we respect what you are doing , we don 't want to fight with yo ur governme nt, perhaps we shou ld sell our barns off to the producers and we should be in the process ing end , but we shouldn 't be in direc t production. " That's really th e co-operat ion we had from Labatt 's which I commend them for , Mr. Chairman . 1048

Thursday, April 20, 1978 Mr. Chairman, I am not prepared to support a monopoly measure for Canada Packers as this Minister is proposing to do; for Champ Foods , as th is Minister is prepared to; for Friendly Family Farms , which this Minister is prepared to do. Eleven production units happen to represent 48 percent of our production. Forty-eight percent of our production by eleven producers in this province, Mr. Chairman, and they call that farming . A MEMBER: Is that true facts, or is that the same as Grunthal? MR. USKIW: Those statistics are about six months old .

That legislation, the Natural Products Marketing Act was never put on the books to give increased monopoly power to people who already had monopoly power . That was put on the books to provide for bargaining position for many producers producing small or average amounts of production per farm , not, Mr. Chairman, to enhance the position of large corporations, national corporations, and multi-national corporations . It's a perverted exercise to say the least. It's a measure that should be stricken off the books, Mr. Chairman.

And if this Minister wants to deny a commodity group an opportunity to participate under the Natural Products Marketing Act, it shouldn 't be beef that should be taken out, it should be broilers . If any commodity should not come under the jurisdiction of this legislation it should be broilers, because that's where the industry is concentrated, fully integrated . It is not owned and operated by ordinary farmers outside of a handful of people, but is controlled and monopolized by huge corporations and they don't need the protection of the state, Mr. Chairman.

They don't need the protection of the state and that's what this Minister is trying to do. He is trying to give protection to the big people and he is removing it from the little people. He is denying the little people an opportunity from ever getting together to use that piece of legislation to their advantage . And that is why, Mr. Chairman , we take issue on this particular appropriation . MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I will just comment briefly because I think that the past Minister is certainly trying to point out his credibility with the farm people and the way agriculture has gone in the last eight years in Manitoba, and I don 't think the farm people certainly did not let him down in the Province of Manitoba or his government on October 11th. They in fact told him how credible they were with the farm people and certainly I continue to look forward to many years of prosperity in the agricultural community working with the farm people and not dictating to them.

So I think if it's credibility that he wants to argue, they told him last October 11th how credible he was. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina is next on my list. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . Just before we pass this, I would like to commend the Member for Lac du Bonnet for wiggling around and making sure that he almost denied saying what he said at Grunthal but not quite denying it.

I would also like to point out to the Member for Lac du Bonnet that in his comments that the recommendation for a marketing board came from a twelve person group , I think the record must show that that twelve man group or twelve person group was a group appointed by the former Minister of Agr iculture, not a duly-elected group, and with potential true representation of the farming committee and the beef industry, that those appointees could have fallen victim , and I only say this in pure speculation , could have fallen victim to the political bent of the former Minister of Agriculture and his desires for marketing boards despite the fact that he has admitted tonight that they are evil.

The second thing I would like to point out , that the Member for Lac du Bonnet in his term as Minister of Agriculture and particularly in the referendum vis-a-vis the Marketing Board of some year and a half ago, or a year ago , although he says today that he maintained a completely neutral stance, strictly providing the information to whomever wanted that information, I only have one comment to make.

That being that in my area, the only meeting that the Minister of Agriculture of that time attended was a meeting called by one Rudy Usi8 who was definitely in favour of the marketing board and he had the Minister of Agriculture there to provide information to the meeting. But , when requested to come to an a-didate meeting or a meeting of the people opposed to the marketing board, he was somewhat scarce and hard to come by. He would not go to a meeting that was against the marketing board. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , on a point of privilege. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet.

What is your point of privilege? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , all of the invitations were accepted from whichever side they came , I was prepared to attend every meeting . I couldn 't attend two in the same night if there were any, and I don't recall any that were turned down .. I don't recall any. I recall a lack of invitation to a number of meetings from the anti-group . Yes, I can recall that, Mr. Chairman, but I don't recall an incident where there was an invitation where I was not prepared to go, not once . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet again , please. I mean the Member for Pembina, sorry . MR.

ORCHARD: I wouldn 't like to check back in the former Minister of Agriculture's invitation book 1049

Thursday, April 20, 1978 because I am quite sure that it won 't show invitations that were declined or if it did, it might not indicate that he went- if he had a choice of two meetings to go to , one that was an all-candidate and one that was a Rudy Usick meeting , where he might have been? I'll leave that up to the Minister to decide but I fully suspect it would be a Rudy Usick meeting in favour of the vote .

Furthermore , the information that came out with the ballot , that non -bias piece of information, I believe some three pages in length , had every indication that a marketing board was the Messiah to the cattle industry . It was written by the Department of Agriculture under the authorization of the Minister of Agriculture and if it wasn't, then he didn 't know what his department was doing .

If a three page document that went out saying all the advantages of a marketing board did not indicate that the Minister of Agriculture was very pro marketing board for beef, then I suggest that he took 77 percent of the beef producers in Manitoba for fools that they weren 't, because they could interpret the meaning , the full message that the Minister of Agriculture delivered during his attendance of meetings and during his mail-out with the ballots . MR. CHAIRMAN: Next on my list is the Member for Emerson . MR. DRIEDGER: Mr.

Chairman , I have a question to direct to the Minister of Agriculture but for clarification 's sake, when the former Minister of Agriculture , the Member for Lac du Bonnet , indicates that we have a lot to learn here as new members , I would just like to say that if a total distortion of facts is what we have to learn , then I don 't know whether I want any part of it. - (Interjection)- I'll bring you facts . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order , order . The Member for Emerson , carry on. MR. DRIEDGER: Mr.

Chairman , the question is, to the Minister of Agriculture, what is the procedure in terms of let's say the Manitoba Marketing Board and then the various producers ' marketing boards? When a producer marketing board makes a recommendation to the Manitoba Marketing Board , what is the normal procedure? I am referring in terms of when they recommend a transfer of market share quota in the dairy industry and it was disallowed and the Milk Producers Marketing Board at that time was trying for an orderly transfer of quota . I'm just wondering, Mr.

Minister, could you indicate what the procedure has been in the past on this? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , in regard to that -I'm sure the member oppos ite is well aware- the producer boards would certainly recommend to the Manitoba Board what thei r desires were and the Manitoba Marketing Board in return would recommend to the Minister in fact what was desirous of the producer marketing board . I can certainly see where that has not changed at this time, that that is still the procedure in which we are carrying out. 68 -03 MR.

CHAIRMAN: Is the Member for Emerson finished? The Member for Selkirk was next on my list. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to suggest to the Minister of Agriculture that he is the Minister of Agriculture and that he ought to not assume the role as though he was the critic of the Member for Lac du Bonne t. He should attempt , I would think , if we are to have a constructive discussion , to attempt to deal with the pertinent points raised by the Member for Lac du Bonnet.

It seems to me that theM inister of Agriculture is exposing the weakness of his position by rather than dealing with the arguments presented by the Member for Lac du Bonnet, he instead wishes to refight the old election campaign of last year, then even relate back to incidents much earlier than the election campaign of last October . All that that demonstrates , and I'm sure it will demonstrate in time to Manitobans , is that the Conservative Party basically does not have an agricultural policy except insofar as that agricultural policy is geared toward bettering the interests of agribusiness in Manitoba .

I thought the former Minister of Agriculture asked a very pertinent question to the Minister of Agriculture and I was looking forward to his answer , if in fact a major segment of the producers in any particular segment of agriculture are controlled, are few in number and control a major segment of that industry and use the framework of a marketing board in order to protect a monopoly position? Does he apply one set of rules there and a different set of rules where the number of producers are many and covering a larger area? I think that is a very pertinent question .

What is the position of this government on marketing boards? Is it one position if it favours and betters the lot of a few in the agribusiness , or is it geared towards encouraging the development of family farming in Manitoba? I want to say this , that it is my view that the former Minister of Agriculture , the Member for Lac du Bonnett , encouraged the development of family farming in this province . As a result of doing that , and the result of doing that , Mr.

Minister , he ran into difficulty with the agribusiness, with Ogilvie 's and the packing houses and the others in the agribusiness in this province , along with their allies in the Progressive Conservative Party in Manitoba and the expressions by the Member for Pembina , the expressions by the Member for Emerson indicate to me very very clearly that there is complete and total lack of understanding of basic farm policy on their part.

I want to , for one , in this meeting this evening indicate that I think that theM inister of Agriculture , by abdicating any attempt to answer the Member for Lac du Bonnett . is acknowledging the basic weakness in the Conservazive Party 's position . 1050

Thursday, April 20, 1978 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I think it shouldn't be too hard to answer the particular member . In fact , it was the last Minister of Agriculture who allowed that particular situation to develop , which certainly has developed over the past eight years , that he allowed that to happen . econdly , it is the intent of this government to certainly encourage the family farm un it owned by the farm people themselves, not by that big family government of NDP that was buying all the land in the past eight years .

Number three, in answer to the fact that the last Minister did not get along with agribusiness, in fact he got along with large corporations because he just recently stated how well he got along with Labatt's, Mr. Chairman, so I would like to close with that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Springfield is next. MR. ANDERSON: Mr. Chairman , I think this discussion instead of discussing the Estimates of the Manitoba Marketing Board , has got into a question of confidence or non-confidence in various Ministers of Agriculture . I would point out , Mr.

Chairman , that I represent a rural constituency and it is a point of pride with me that I did take the time to talk to a lot of farmers in my constituency. It is my opinion that the former Minister of Agriculture was perhaps my most substantial asset in terms of my election and -(1 nterjection)- He certainly was. Mr. Chairman , I am stating my opinions and I am not responsible for conclusions drawn by others . I suggest to you , Mr.

Cha irman, that the family farmers that I represent, stated by their ballots last October that they had no confidence in the previous Minister of Agriculture , his policies and his administration. On that basis , I think we got a very clear indication of how the farmers in my constituency felt about the matter. I think the present Minister of Agriculture has a certain mandate to proceed and a vote of confidence from the farmers of Manitoba -(Interjection)- I guess he will have to take his chances . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Selk irk. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman , again , as the Member for Springfield is rehashing the last election again , I don't intend to do that. But I'm still awaiting from the Minister of Agriculture some reference -he laughed , he jeered at the statistics presented to us by the Member for Lac du Bonnett , but he has made no effort , he has made absolutely no effort to speak to those statistics except to jeer at them. He has seven members of his department present.

He has made no effort to deal with those statistics, with the very substance of the presentat ion by the Member for Lac du Bonnett and I think, again, that the Member for Lac du Bonnett certainly has asked a question which concerns me a great deal as to whether or not in this particular instance , the mechanism of the marketing board is being utilized in order to protect the lot of a few that are engaged in agribusiness . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture . MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman , I thought I indicated in the past many hours of debate on the Manitoba Marketing Board that in fact it was certainly in place to look after and certainly the control body or the overseeing body of the producer market ing boards , and that was the role of it. Certainly there is no intent to change that ; that in fact is the mechanism that is in place . That is what we are debating and the wages of that particu lar mechanism .

As far as the staff who are behind me, they have been very patient , sitting here waiting to answer some quest ions of myself within the depa rtment as it relates to the Estimates tha t are before this very body this evening and have done for many days. I am sure that they are quite prepared to answer me on anything that relates to the programs ; that they are here as support ive staff as I am sure in the past eight years they were here for the previous individual and certain ly are quite prepa red to carry on with the Estimates .

However , I do not believe that they came here to listen to the members opposite to continually , continually philosophize and try to dominate the farm people with their philosophy that was so certainly explained to them or indicated to them on October 11th in numbers of support that they got from the farm commun ity. I would like to just back to the fact that we are here and I have answered him , that the Man itoba Mark eting Board is in place as an overseeing body of the producer marketing boards . -(1 nterjection)- The Membe r for Lac du Bonnett says, "Right ," agreed I have answered the question . MR.

CHAIRMAN: 7.(b)(1)-pass- th e Member for Lac du Bonnett. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , now that the Minister has indicated he is prepared to give us the statistics , I ask him how many broiler producers there are in Manitoba and can he give us a breakdown on the production of the integrated operations, the agribusiness operations as distinct from the people who are bona fide farmers , and their production totals? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture . 1051

Thursday, April 20, 1978 MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , in answer to the first part of the member 's question, I believe he has answered in previous statements some of the statistics in the latter part and I would have to check out the percentages of the numbers of producers holding control of certain amounts of it. I do believe that there are approximately 112 present producers in the broiler industry .

The last report that I had, there were approximately 70 producers of broilers or potential producers of broilers which he, and these were small producers, which he in his philosophy would not allow into the industry with his philosophy that they could not enter the industry. But it is our intent, with the entry of the national agreement , that we do allow those people to produce for export markets , for markets which they themselves individually can accomplish or the producer marketing board can accomplish or create or develop .

So it is our intent to help those 70 small producers get into the industry which he was not able to do. I certainly would look forward to the developdevelopment of more broiler industry and more broiler producers , of small producers in the Province of Manitoba , which in fact he had not indicated he was prepared to do. MR. USKIW: Well , Mr. Chairman , the Minister is tremendously amusing . He is not giving us the answers . He told us that there were 112 producers . I would like to know what percentage of production is produced by the top 11 producers in this province , of the total? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, as indicated by the Member for Gladstone, it is approximately the same as it was six months ago but I do believe it is approximately 48 percent produced by 11 producers. That is approximately the figures that I have. But I would indicate as I have done so many times that the previous Minister of Agriculture allowed that particular situation to develop . It is our philosophy that we allow the 70 producers to eventually enter into the production of broilers and at that time we would have some 200 producers in the broiler industry . So that is the intent of our government of today . MR.

CHAIRMAN : The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , I would like to now ask the Minister through what method he is now going to introduce 70 new producers . Is he prepared to eliminate all the quota regulat ions that now exist , and have existed in this province for the last number of years , to allow any number of new producers into this industry , because he is telling us that they were under some undue restriction by the previous Minister . I want to tell him , Mr. Chairman , that the Minister not once restricted anyone from production in the broiler industry .

The broiler producers ' marketing board may have denied people quota . That's right. I want to know whether this Minister is now going to open up the flood gates, whether he is going to allow anyone to get into the broiler business or whether the present quota limitations are going to continue . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , I certainly would think that it would be immediately impossible to say that we would , as the Member for Lac du Bonnet has indicated , that you would open the flood gates and certainly cause hardship to some of the producers that are in the industry .

I think the number 1 thing that I'm concerned about when I have stated that there are 112 producers of broilers in the industry , that it is not , in fact , the 12 larger producers or the 11 , but it is the 100 that I'm concerned about , the 100 small producers which he, in fact , was not interested in and , in fact , as I've stated, it is our concern that those additiona l 70- odd could enter into the production of broilers . The production of those particular people would certainly add to the employment of the Province of Manitoba .

I would hope that , with the agreement of the Federal Board and the encouragement of our government and our marketing branch, that within very short order ... But let me also put on the record, Mr. Chairman , that it took the last Minister of Agriculture eight years to get us in the situat ion that we are now in with regard to the few individuals that are producing such a large percentage , and he allowed that to happen .

I would hope that we wouldn 't take eight years to get us out of that , in fact I would look forward to a much shorter period of time , and I can assure you that we are very concerned about the small producers . In fact I do think that in the coming months , with our philosophy, that we will be able to open up some of the restrictions that were certainly placed upon the producers by the former Minister of Agriculture . MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman , I would ask the Minister whether or not he is going to allow new producers into the production of broilers even if the present Broiler Producers Marketing Board do not wish new ones to be allowed in. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , as I have indicated for many days now, and our government have certainly indicated to the Province of Manitoba, that it is the desire of our government to work with the producer boards of the Province of Manitoba which he was not prepared to do. He did not listen to any producer board whether it be dairy, whether it be bro ilers, or egg marketing boards . He did not listen .

The Egg Marketing Board tried for two years to have a meeting wit h the former Minister of Agricu lture and were unable to do so. I would like to also say, Mr. Chairman , that it is the desire of our government to listen to the producer marketing boards , not dictate to them with the heavy hand of government which he had placed on them in the past eight years . 1052

Thursday, April 20, 1978 MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , I asked the Minister very precisely, and I would appreciate a direct answer , since he is going to allow for new production to take place I want to know whether he is remov ing the present restrictions which keep people from entering into the production of broilers. I want to know whether I can get into the broiler business tomorrow , or next month, or whether I could have gotten in yesterday . What is the policy of this Minister? He keeps talking about a restr iction on the part of the previous government which is not correct.

If there was a restriction it was on the part of the Producer Marketing Board with whom the government did not interfere in that regard . I want to know whether he's removing any restrictions on production , whether he is changing the regulations which have empowered the Broiler Producers Marketing Board to funct ion to date, and what those changes are. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , as I have indicated , that we are, in fact , talking to the Producer Market ing Board.

In fact there have been discussions taken place that they were , as a producer marketing board , made up, I would have to indicate, of farm people , not of large corporations as he has indicated but certainly of farm producers, family farm units who make up the Producers Marketing Board. It was a unanimous desire of that board, or vote by the board to enter into the national agreement and it is our intent, as I have stated in entering the agreement , if an individual can develop a market on his own , an export market , that they will be able to produce broilers for that market.

So we are not restricting them from entering the broiler business if, in fact, they want to go in and get a market for themselves in an export market , either individually or collectively as a board . Those were the terms on which we said we would enter the national agreement in marketing for broilers . MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman , I asked this Minister whether or not he is going to allow my colleague, the former Attorney-General to get into the production of broilers at any time that he chooses, not because he has developed a market that doesn 't exist today , but because he is going to be more efficient than the existing producers that we have in Manitoba right now . And I want to know whether this Minister is going to allow the freedom of opportunity to anyone who wants to get into the production of any commodity . MR. DOWNEY : Mr.

Chairman, it would be very difficult for the Minister of Agriculture today to allow the Attorney-General of the past to enter into the business of broilers because, in fact , some of the regulations that were in place left bias that the former government discriminated against individuals who were not farmers and certainly we still have those regulations . As we have said some changes in the regulations certainly are anticipated .

They have not been tabled - one of them being the Farmlands Protection Act which certainly was left and certainly drawn so loosely that it really, in fact, did not do anything that would help the farm people. So I would just, you know , go back to the very fact as I've said , we're debating the Manitoba Marketing Board which is the overseeing body of the producer marketing boards and that is the job that they have to perform . MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(b)(1 )-pass- the Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR.

USKIW: I ask the Minister of Agriculture again whether anyone around this table, or any existing producer , can either enter into production of broilers or any other commodity that is restricted now , or increase their existing prod uction? Is it possible , or will it soon be possible, for anyone , any new person , to get into the produc tion of a commodity now regulated by the Marketing Act , or is it going to be possible for existing producers to expand without restriction their productive capacity in the production of any of those commodit ies now governed by this marketing board? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman , I would hope that it would soon be possible that the farmers and the producers of this province could expand and we could certainly have new producers enter into the production of these commodities. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , I've been hoping for that for many years . Mr. Chairman , I've been hoping for that for many years . MR. DOWNEY: I know , but you couldn 't accomplish it, Sam, and you had all the power in your hands . MR. USKIW: I want to know whether this Minister is going to remove the regulation that has denied it from happening , that has disallowed it, Mr. Chairman .

I want to know whether there are any changes in regulations that are going to allow new people to enter into the production of any one of these commodities which are now regulated , or whether the Minister is merely hoping , Mr. Chairman , as I was merely hoping for a good number of years , that the markets would somehow expand and that there would be room for more people in the industry.

I want to know the difference and so far this Minister has not been able to give us the difference between the existing operation , as he inherited it, and the operation that he foresees and the regulations that will apply under his terms of reference. 1053

Thursday, April 20, 1978 MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , I think in answer to the member, it is, as I've said , our intent to work with the producer marketing boards and I'm very sure that with our philosophy and the desire of the people to produce . .. MR. USKIW: What's your philosophy? Tell us what your philosophy is. MR.

DOWNEY: Number one , the philosophy is that we work with the producer organizations; we do not work in opposition by buying land and completely having the heavy hand of government completely over top of them and we will certainly hope to encourage more people into the production and we certainly look forward to the involvement of the producers , not the dictatorship of socialism that was on them in the past eight years. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7. (b)(1)-pass- The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Agriculture is obviously in a very untenable position . He is in an untenable position , Mr.

Chairman because he would like us to believe that new found opportunities would be advent of his government, that people would have more freedom to do things that they want to do, but Mr. Chairman , he refuses to change one regulation that has restricted those people for the last 20 years in some commodities , for the last 10 years for other commodities, for the last three or four years for some of those commodities. He refuses to commit himself to relaxing those regulations which have restricted production in Manitoba . Mr. Chairman, it's a phoney argument that he is putting forward .

He is not changing anything. He is not changing anything , Mr. Chairman . He is not changing anything . Everything is carrying on as is, but he is attempting to operate on the pretext that it is changing, that something is going to happen.! have been patient , Mr. Chairman , I have been waiting since the 24th of October because now that I have a little more free time perhaps I would be interested in getting into the poultry business, back into the potato business , Mr. Chairman , which I gave up my quota in 1969 for obvious reasons . But, Mr. Chairman , this Minister doesn 't want me back in the industry .

This Minister doesn 't want me back in the industry. He wants to maintain the same regulations , he wants to maintain those regulations to keep people like myself and the Member for Ste. Rose and the former Attorney-General from getting into the agricultural industry . And yet , Mr. Chairman , he tries to suggest to us that this is all in the spirit of some new-found freedoms- that we are much freer in Manitoba by some point in his imagination . I don 't know , Mr. Chairman , what it is that has changed since October . I don 't know , Mr.

Chairman , what has changed since October 24th with respect to the operation of the Manitoba Marketing Board , with respect to the regulations that were on the books then and, Mr. Chairman, this Minister can't even indicate to us what changes he is going to make to those regulations . What he is telling us is that he is going to take away freedom from people who have yet to date not used that legislation , and he is going to foreclose that opportunity to them. That is the only thing that he has told us, which is indeed a change of policy , but it's a denial of freedom , Mr. Chairman .

It's a denial of basic human rights in this province with respect to the peoples ' opportunities, the peoples' desire to bargain collectively in the marketplace . It's a denial of their basic rights as was established many years ago by this legislation and this Minister is talking about new freedoms , holding all of the existing restrictions and adding new ones- adding new restrictions . We are now in a position where we can't even ask this Minister to form new marketing boards to cover those commodities that have not yet been set up under a marketing board operation in this province.

I ask this Minister then , Mr. Chairman , whether he is going to allow add itional marketing boards to be formed with respect to those commodities that are not yet marketed in that way in Manitoba . MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(b)(1)-pass . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , I have asked the Minister a question. Is this Minister going to allow the establishment of new marketing boards in this province or have we seen the full lot of them? Is this the end for people who want to bargain collectively , those commodities that are not yet handled in that manner .

Will those people be given an opportunity to use the Natural Products Marketing Act? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , as I indicated prior that when he makes a statement of where is the freedom , I think it is very plain to see that number one , that the producers have the freedom to discuss with the Manitoba Marketing Board , and theM inister , and our government , some of their ideas and it certa inly is not as I said earlier, dictated to them what should take place by the last Minister, but we are certainly in discussion with them .

I cannot particularly say that there will not be any producer marketing boards in the future development , in fact those are things that no one can predict in the future . It is not our intent at this time to implement , as government , any marketing boards for commodit ies that are not covered. Certainly we are continu ing to discuss with producers in the Province of Man itoba what their desires are. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , I then ask the Minister whether or not he wo uld allow for the 1054

Thursday, April 20, 1978 establishment of a Marketing Board if he had a request from any particular commodity group at this point in time , for the establishment of such an agency . ' MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , just as I have stated , the purpose of the Manitoba Marketing Board is to take recommendations from producer organizations , from marketing boards , and if there were a recommendation come forward , it would certainly have to be considered. I am not saying it would be or would not be, that is the process , and at this time there is not , so it is completely a question that might happen in the future . MR.

USKIW: Well then let me be more precise . Should the beef growers of Manitoba present a submission to the Manitoba Marketing Board and through them to the Minister , or either way, for such an arrangement for the marketing of beef in Manitoba, is it reasonable to expect that this Minister wou ld allow them an opportunity to use that legislation in that way? A MEMBER: That 's really hypothetical. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(b)(1 )-pass ; 7.(b)(2)0ther Expenditures , $37,000. The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: I would like to ask the Minister what is the procedure now for getting into the broiler market?

Would a producer wishing to enter- so far all we've heard from theM inister is pie in the sky . He's hoping that someday there will be a pie up there that somebody can latch on to. There's no direction, there doesn 't seem to be any willingness on the part of the Minister to go in any direction as far as the broiler market. He has mentioned that there are 70 producers that he wants to bring in to the broilers . How do these 70 producers get in within the next , say three months? Do they have to buy a quota- how do they get in? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture . MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman , I did not say that there were 70 that I particularly instructed or that I want them in. They are desirous of producing the product. The process is not changed on how you get bro iler quota as of today and certainly as indicated in our negotiations with the Producer Marketing Board and the Nationa l Board , is that if there is a market developed individually , collectively , by them or their Board for export markets that they would be allowed to go ahead and produce for that market. If they did that within three months then they would be allowed into the industry . MR.

ADAM: If the Minister is going to allow them in, how is he going to allow them in? A MEMBER: You have to know the mechanism . MR. ADAM: What is the mechanism? MR. DOWNEY: The mechanism is through the Producer Marketing Board and through the Manitoba Marketing Board. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, what was the mechanism before? What has changed in the mechanism now? I would like the Minister to illustrate for us. What has changed? MR. DOWNEY: As I have said , Mr.

Chairman, that the change in fact is that upon entry to the National Marketing Board the individuals or the collective organization as a Producer Marketing Board would be able to produce for that market that was developed by them . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the Minister is answering in a very hypothetical way because we have not yet entered into a national plan . As I understand it, I want to know what has changed in the procedures between October 1st and today in terms of the entry of producers in the production of broilers in Manitoba or any other marketing board commodity . What has changed to date? MR.

DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , as I have indicated, the entry to produce today has not changed since the first of October until today . MR. USKIW: Well then, Mr. Chairman , I ask the Minister to explain to me how he was able to sitthere and allege that somehow there was some undue interference before the change of government in this regard when he now tells me that nothing has changed and the rules that were there still apply and the functions of the various agencies still apply . How is the Minister able to tell me those two things, two opposite statements , the same evening, Mr. Chairman? MR.

DOWNEY: I don 't believe that I said there was any interference in the Broiler Marketing Board but I did indicate that there was interference by the previous administration in the marketing 1055

Thursday, April 20, 1978 procedure of hogs , and it was in fact changed to be a compulsory marketing board . MR. USKIW: Mr. Cha irman , I would like the Minister to indicate to me that since the hog marketing regulations were altered to make hog marketing compulsory through the board , wheth.er there ~as ever been a presentation to the Manitoba Marketing Board or to the Government of Mamtoba askmg that those regu lations be removed or asking that the board be dissolved or that we have a referendum on it. I would ask the Minister to indicate that to me. MR.

DOWNEY: 1 n answer to that it is indicated to me that there was in fact a group of individuals that contacted the previous admin istration to explore the very fact that there could be possibilities of calling for a referendum on the compulsion of hog marketing in Manitoba . MR. USKIW: 1 wonder if the Minister could then indicate to me what the Manitoba Marketing Board 's position was with respect to such a request. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , I do not believe it got to the Man itoba Marketing Board . MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(b)(2)-pass ; 7.(c)Agricultural Products Marketing Comm ission, $8,000- Member for Lac du Bonnet.

MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , I wonder if the Minister could explain to us what is intended with regard to that particular commission . My understand ing was that it is being dissolved and yet there is an amount of money allocated. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , the money in place is anricipated for the winding down of the Agricultural Products Marketing Commission , there were some commitments in the selling of buckwheat to Japan I believe , and it was in the winding up of this particular program . MR. CHAIRMAN: ?.(c)-pass . .

Resolution 14: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $426,800 for Agriculture- pass . The hour being 10:22 I suggest Committee rise. SUPPLY - MINES AND RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN: I would direct the honourable members to page 57, Resolution 81 , Mines , Resources and Environmental Management. We are on Item I. (a)(2) . The Honourable Member for Inkster . MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman , I don 't know whether the Minister is going to have his staff available to him this evening , because there was one matter which I think he may need their assistance on. Mr.

Cha irman , just before the adjournment hour the Min ister , I think , made it fairly plain to the Assembly that he would not substa ntiate any part of the alleged massive reduction of expenditures whi ch were going to be spent by the previous administration , but which the Conse rvatives came to the rescue and reduced them by $300 million . That this Minister , in any event , was not going to substant iate any of those expendit ures in his department by identifying what those reductions were .

I did ask him what the vacancy rate was and what the existing staff level was, and I wonder if the Minister would give me, for my information , once again the total number of reduced staff man years from last year to this year in his department. He did give it in his introductory remarks. I can't remember them all. I wonder if he could just give me the global , the total figure . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Minister . MR. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman , I believe the figure is 35 staff man years . And while I'm on my feet , Mr.

Chairman , I would like to make it clear that what I have said that I am prepared to do, is that I am prepared , fully , to discuss the printed Estimates that are before us; and that within those Estimates there wi ll show some reductions in expend itures from the previous year. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman , I'm sorry if I caused the Minister to demur with my remarks which I thought did not contradict his .

I understood theM inister to say that he would discuss the reductions which appear on the printed sheets , but that he would not discuss the alleged reduction of several hundred millions of dollars which the Conservative administ ration claimed it was able to effect by reducing departmental estimates . I have another question , but I wonder whether the Minister would go this far, and I will not be push ing it very hard if he doesn 't. When he came to office , was he able to determine that any departmental estimates were approved of by the Ministe r of the Department , when he came in- 1056

Thursday, April 20, 1978 wh ich he then reduced? MR. RANSOM: Well, I have no hesitation in saying , Mr. Chairman , that the Estimates process obviously had a long distance to go before the final Estimates were arrived at. I do not know to what extent the previous Minister had dealt with the Estimates to that point. I know that they have been through staff to some extent , and that some efficiency cuts , I believe was the term that was used, had been made by that point. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Chairman , what the member is confirming is that without a hoo-hah, without a Task Force , without the assistance of the Great-West Life Assurance Company , that there was an efficiency cut on existing expenditures within the department prior to the change in administration, and that there was no Ministerial approval of departmental Estimates that he knows of, when he came to power . That is what he has indicated . If I am wrong , I wish the Minister would correct me. MR. RANSOM: Well , Mr. Chairman , I'm not going to contradict the honourable member .

All I'm saying is that when I assumed the responsibil ities for the department, there was a set of Estimates that was substantially along in the process of preparation , and that we have advanced them from there , and the figures that are before us show that we substantially reduced it from what it was last year. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman , I will deal with this substantial reduction in due course. In terms of efficiency , we know that there was an efficiency exercise gone through prior to the Conservative administration, and I will concede in every way, Mr.

Chairman , in every way, and I will argue, that there has been a reduction in an area in which there was a profound difference of opinion between the Conservative administration and the New Democratic Party administration with regard to mineral exploration . And I will concede that, Mr. Chairman , and I ask the Honourable Minister to concede that that is not an efficiency change , that is a change in objectives and philosophy, and we will argue as to whether that will save the government money , save the public of Manitoba money .

I'm going to argue it's going to cost us money- and I don 't expect the Minister to agree with me- but in terms of efficiency of administration, Mr. Chairman , now I want to show what has happened with regard to efficiency. I want the Minister to concede , which he's going to have to do by the figures , that when you have a department of 750 people , and a 10 percent vacancy rate, which is on a consistent basis, then all you are paying for is 675 people .

And the 10 percent vacancy factor gives a department the opportunity of both losing people and picking them up in a certain fashion, and in accordance with certain deliberation, in accordance with making sure that they are not rushing into things, but doing it in a particular way . And I'm not even saying the right way. I'm merely saying that it means that you are doing it in a particular way . When you have a department of 675 people, and a vacancy rate which is less, Mr. Chairman, it doesn 't necessarily mean you are saving money . It merely means that the pressure to fill positions is much stronger and , Mr.

Chairman , what you wind up with - by the member 's own figures- is the same number of people employed . We were told that 35 people have been reduced from last year's staff man years, that last year there was a 10 percent vacancy factor which means 75 people were not employed . When I asked how many are employed this year , the member said that there are 43 vacancies on the regular staff and virtually none- virtually none- on the term staff . Which means, Mr. Chairman , there has been a reduction on the vacancy feature of 33 people .

The honourable member says that he has 351ess staff man years , but he is paying for the same number of people . He is paying , Mr. Chairman, within one or two by merely reducing the vacancy factor and increasing the pressure to fill vacant positions . He can declare a reduction in 35 staff man years but still pay the same number of people . Will the Honourable Minister admit that what changes under those circumstances is not the number of people that you are paying for , but the pressure and the anxiety with which old positions are filled? Because, Mr.

Chairman , those are the figures that the Honourable Minister gave me. He said that we have 43 vacancies,

whereas last year he would have had 75, that there are 35 people less employed in the department and therefore , Mr. Chairman , we are back to the same number . I suggest , Mr. Chairman, that in capsule form what we are seeing in one department is happening throughout the government. That with a staff of 17,000 people there is always a certain number of vacancies and if those vacancies are 10 percent- and I'm not suggesting that they are the same figure in the other departments as they are in this department- then there would be 1,700 at anytime not employed .

And if you have reduced your staff man years by 1,000 and have reduced your vacancy feature from 10 percent to 5 percent- which is what is done here- there is the same number of people employed . Now, Mr. Chairman , don 't misunderstand me that I would say that that means nothing has been done . I believe that this administration wants to employ less people . This administration has a peculiar notion that a nurse working in the hospital- male or female- is less productive and of less value to society than an attendant working in a massage parlour- male or fema le.

Because one is in the publ ic sector and one is in the private sector , and anybody who works in the public sector is a drone and anybody who works in the private sector is wonderful. The Min ister of Labour said yesterday something which will, Mr. Cha irman , go down to haunt this government and to bring that one person in ten maybe to reconsider , the kind of decision that they 1057

Thursday, April 20, 1978 made and I accept that dec ision although I tried to change it; the honourable members on the other side talked as if that dec ision once made indicates that we are wrong and they are right. What the honourable members forget is that that decision is up again for judgement every four years and what they fail to realize is that what they talk about as now being the will of the peop le of Manitoba and that these are the policies that were voted for , they are the identical policies that they went to the public with in 1969 and were rejected on.

So when you are praising yourse lf at having satisfied the will of the people- and really Mr. Cha irman , it surprises me most when it comes from people like the Member for St. Matthews who talks about the people in his constituency which are by a hair , 50 percent, what he would call socialist , and 50 percent Conservative , that they have spoken with one voice. MR. DOMINO: Give the Liberals some credit. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman , in the last election the Liberals held their left and their right collapsed .

If the honourable member wishes to interpret it in another way , let him do so because it will only cause him more trouble next time when he doesn 't know what he is up against. -(lnterjection)- Mr. Chairman , I will say that in 1969 we can analyze what has occurred differently . What I do say, Mr. Chairman , is that in 1969, and you can go back to your publicity , go back to your literature , go back to the campaign material , you will find that the same policies which you now say are self-evident to the people of the province of Manitoba , were rejected by the people of Manitoba . But , Mr. Chairman , what is w

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-2-25b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 2nd hansardpdf 25b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	da3e606bf8ae900cc1c4fece9a3ce53d30c32a8b

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