'!OL. 1 ?RELDUNARY UNEDITED T?ANSCRIPT HOUSE GF ASSE.i.'1BLY' FOR THE ?ERIOD: lO:OO a.m. - 1:00 ?.:n. FRIDAY, NOVE!-1BER ? , 137? NO. 27

November 3, 1979 Tape ~lo. 977 JW - !. The House met at 10:00 A.H. :·tr. Speaker in the c:O.air. HP_. SPEA::E.R: Order, please! Yffi. SPEAKER: The hen. the ?remier. ??~~IER PEC~ORD: ~!r. Speaker, members ?f this hen. House have been given the solemn responsibility to represent their constituents and to safeguard the best interests of the people of ~his Province. !f they are to discharge this responsibility objectivel;', they must !:e independent me.:nbers 1 free from financial and moral commit~~ents.

A Bill to be introduced during this session of the Legislature .,..ill go a long way to ensure that :-:on. meml:-ers are elected to this House without having to incur such constrain:s.Cnce they are here it is a different matter. I believe this han. House has a respcnsi­ tility to ensure that members who are elected here receiv·e compensation =crr~ensurate with their duties and responsibilities and to ensure that in ser;inq the people of the Province they do not have to endure undue personal and family hardship.

In aCdition, I !Jelieve it is necessary to ensure the compensation structure of ~a~bers does not prohibit capable and interested citizens :rem seeking fUblic office and serving in the highest public Positions in this ?rovince. Given t.his, ~r. Speaker, :;: feel it is an or;r:crtune :irr.e to detecnine whether the compensation that members of this House receive reflects the reality of cur times. Accordingly, with the ~onsent of the Leader of the Opposition and his House Leader,: propose ':.o this House an independent ccn:mittee to '?.Xal'\ine into che remune::-at.ion of :nembers of this hen. House.

I propose an independent ::crrsnittee because it ·...,culd not be right nor wculd it seem ::'ight for :neml::ers to decide upon their pay. The committee would have ttl.e following terms of reference, "!n relation to the Provi.11ce's exist:inc i'inancial :;,~nacitv ~o er.c;:uire into and make recotrrnendations upon: 1

a) remuneration -~-'':J.Lle to r:-ep!:ers o:f the House cf Assembly, including the amount of re:r.uneration payable ,if any, to members of the House of Assemtl'[ serving as membe:-s of ccrnmittees; and (b) ;'\dequa::y of 2xpenses payable t:) memters of ~he !lcuse of Assel'lbly."

Noven-.ber 9, 1979 Tape No. 977 DYI - 2 ?P~~IER ?ECY20PD: with the ,:;onsent of this House, Professor Gar Pynn, Director of the ?.J. Gardiner Institute of Small Eusiness Studies at Me.."!lorial Dniversit? b.as indicated he will Chair the committee. Ser-Jing with :·tr. ?ynn would be :·tr. Gonzo Gillingham, International rtepresentative for the Carpenters and Joiners of America, and}~. Len ~illiams, former President of the ~.T.A. and now teaching at :1e.'T.orial University. I am sure that this committee,representing the business world, labour and the academic community will work with dispatcband present a report that is equitable and objective. SOME HON. !£'-lEERS: Hear, hear! 2463

nover.ber 9, 1979 ~-· SPE&XER: (Simms) !A.R. JAMIESON: Tape No. 978 AH-1 The hen. Leader of the Opposition. ~1r. speaker, may I begin bY acknowleC.ging the full co-operation that has been accorded to us by the Premier and ~~e members opposite and the House Leader in the discussions leading up to this announcement today.

I think there is nothing more chat I need to aCd 1 really, to the Premier's statement. r think it is entirely approp7iate that there be an independent group examine this issue and I have full confidence that they will do a job which will not only reflect ~~e responsibilities of members and also provide reasonable expenses and incomes for members 1 but at ~~e same tL~e the fact that this is an independent group will, I am sure, be acceptable to the general public. Consequently, therefore, I am more than happy to endorse the statement made by the hen. the Premier this morning.

I ~~ink it is perhaps an appropriate time for me to add just one word 1which again I do in G,e full knowledge that the matter is under examination, and ~~at is ~~e question of facilities wi~~in ~~is building for me~~ers, r would suggest probably en Oo~, sides, I am grateful to the Speaker for having himself,indeed,taken an interest in ~~is matter, ! believe at the instigation of the Premier.

I must say ~hat I hope, and I realize that there are difficulties with regard to,perhaps,overcrowdinq at ~~e ~ment, but I gather ~'1at plans are unden.'ay, and certainly I hope that something can be done with dispatc, not rnerely<incidentrlly for, if you wish, the comfort or L,e convenience or 1 indeed 1 eve~ L~e capacity of members to work accurately and well, but, also, to receive ~~eir constituents and people who come here to ma~e ~e9resentations and ~he like. So I merely conclude by saying that we are very pleaseC. with this announce~.ent. SOME HON • !-!EMBERS: Hear, hear! !-llt.

SPEAKER: The hen. :1inister of '!'ranspcrtaticn and Cotrmunications. MR.3?VTT: !1r. Speaker, I wish to advise t..~e

November 9,1£179 Tape no. 978 AH-2 !-!R. BPETT: bon. members of this House that I now have the results of the survey and ~~e recommendations of the Committee established ~o review ~~e extenc of persons driving automobiles in this Province without third party liability insurance. !·1err.bers will ::ecall that some months age concerns were raised by merr.bers of the public anC by the press that an unusually high percentage of Newfoundland motorists were driving without third party liatility insurance as is prescribed ;:,y law.

As there 'i.'as a relatively large discrepancy in the figures put =or~~ by various parties involved. a committee comprised of representatives of Government and the insurance industry was established to investigate ~~e effectiveness of enforcement of the compulsory vehicle insurance legislation. I am pleased , !!r.

Speaker, to announce today that ~~e COmmittee has completed an extensive four phase survey of Newfoundland motorists and have determined that in excess of ninety-three per cent of vehicle owners are not in contravention of the Highway Traffic Act wi~~ respect to the carriaqe of proper automobile insurance. ?RE.'UER ?ECKFORD: Wbat is that, ninety-three? ~!R. BP-.!:TT: Ninety-t.'"lree. 2465

November 9, 1979 Tape 979 EC - 1 MR. BRETT: !t is possible that this percentage could be even higher, but the Committee has judged that the additional effott. required to determine this was not justifiable. This minimum of 93 per cent compares very f~vcurably to figures established by the P~~ and the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary through periodic spot citecks. The police forces have determined respectively that approximately 97 per cent and 95 per cent of ootorist.s have proper vehicle insurance. The Committee, Hr.

Speaker, has also made seven recommendations with respect to the administration of the compulsory insurance legislation in the Province. While the recommendations have not yet been officially accepted by Government, they will be studied in detail to determine if it is in Gover~~ent's interest to accept and implement the recommendations. In

summary, ~,e recommendations put forth by the Committee were: ll that the procedure for the reporting of insurance offences to tile Registrar of Motor Vehicles be revised and that the Registrar en5ure that such information is included with the Abstracts of Drivers' ?.ecords and t.l-tat he provide an annual report of the number of insurance offenses each year; 2) that Government consider establishing, on an ongoing basis, the spot checking of insurance coverage u conducted in Ute survey; 3) that Government not implement a ccmputerizad system for the monitoring of carriage of proper vehicle in$urance; 4) that Government consider making it mandatory to show proof of insurance at th.e time of application for licencing a vehicle; 5) ~~at an ongoing publicity and education programme be implemented to make the public aware of tile insurance requirements for vehicles; 6) that the present method cf providing ~stracts of drive:rs' Records t:Je improved; anci 7) t..~at Govern.'nent:. review the adequacy of the third party liability limit. currently required by legislation and also consider whether or not accident benefits should be cade a part of the requirements for compulsory insurance.

MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. BENNET'T: The hen. ~'1-e member for St. Barbe. Mr. Speaker, 1 would like to 2466

November 9, 1979 Tape 979 EC - 2 MR. BENNETT: congratul01.te the hen. the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett) for this piece of information. Since this h.a.s only just been passed to me u I came into the hon. Howse, I would like to be given a chance to review, but in the meantime, I ...,auld like to lend my support to it. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Before moving to Oral Questions, on beh.alf of han. members I ...,oulci like to welcome to the gallery tod•y Mt~.gistrate Langdon, in c..~arge of the provinch.l court in Gander. I a.m. sure hon. mambers would like to welcome him today. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. JAMIESON: Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Spt!A.ker, may I take advillltOI.ge of the Premier 1 S inVitation yesterday to talk about the fisheries? Since nobody else seems to be doing very much talkL"lg about them, at least not on the other side of the House, l'll.1lY I just preface my question by recalling the comments of the hon. the Premier of .a. few days ago, first of all indicating 2467

:~ove:n.ber 9 1 1979 Tape No. 980 SD - 1 MR. JA..'1IESON : ~l;.e suspension of loans under the Fisheries Loans Act:. and the fact that there is, I believe, his words were, ~a thorough review of Fisheries under way•.

Since we were given, this Hause was given, some time ago, a mas~er plan for the Fishery called 'Fish is ~~e Future' as well as an enormous and,I suspect,a very costly document called ~~e Kellogg Report,plus a mass of other review information, does this mean ~!;.at we are starting from square one or just exactly what is involved in the 1 I believe I am quoting che Premier correctly, in the ongoing or ~~orough review of the !isheries policy? . "iR. SPEAKER: {Mr. S inuns) PRE.'1!ER PECKFORD: The hen. the Premier • Yes, I thank the hon. ::.eader of the Opposition far posing a question on the fisheries.

In the last five or six years more money has been spent an ~~e fisheries than ever before in our nist:.ory in any equal period of time,and a large thrust has been made again in the present Budget to it:.. I ~'link the Department:. of Fisheries Budget has increased percentage-wise :nore t...'1an any other budget in the government in ~l;.e present fiscal year. So, it shows an ongoing, concrete co~~ittment by ~~is goverr~ent towards fishery and fishery matters. 'I'",.;o points ~re relevant, :1r. Speaker 1 as it relates to t.he question posed by the Leaae:r of ~"le Opposicion.

One has to do with ~~e review 1 specifically on t.he Fisheries Lean Board ar~ its activities. As most han. members know, as mas::: people around the Province know, ~ tremendous upsurge in the fisher] has occurred in the l~st number of years, due partly to ~l;.e 200 mile l~~it anti ~any other factors as well - multi-species now bein9 marketable in t:.he world, and a whole bunch of other reasons which I will not go into r~w. The fact of the matter remains ~'lat there has been a large increase.

This was seen as tae funds fer the Fisheries Loan Beard increased draw4tically over the last nu.."\ber of years, .Suffice it to say r-~w =.hat last year in new monies to ~,e Fisheries Loan Board, $5 million was allocated which goe:l along ..,.ith =..>;,e ;nonies ti'.a<: come back frcr.r t:.he fisner.nen on existing loans ::;aking many ;;;ere millions available each year ior ::,us disposition, for new applicat.ions 1 :or fishing facilities - boats and net't:ing and sa an. This ;r2sent fiscal year, we 2468

Novem.bar 9, 1979 Tape No. 980 so - 2 PRE!UER PECKFORD: increased that to $8 million and have additionally increased it beyond that amount, I think to somewhere around Sl2 million. So there is more than double the amount of money to the Fisheries Loan Board this year over last year. P.owever1 that-_ has not kept pace with ~~e number of applications ccmina ~nrward and there are six or seven or eight hundred applications now outstanding. ~hat we are doing are twu things in the Fisheries Loan Board, Mr.

Speaker; one, rPViBwing all the activities of the Fisheries Loan soard 1 and we advertised for a Chairman because tb.e Ch.airman had resigned.

We are doing a full review an it, it '""ill be completed by the end of November and a statement on the ongoing activities of the Loan Board for the remainder of this fiscal year will be made at that time and we will try to, undoubtedly, priori.ze the applications that are available to do them on a need basis. for example, if there is ~ fisnerman who has his fishing licence and has o~~er financial arrangements made and what is needed is a pocket or gap of money to fill L~ the whole application form, well, that fisherman must come before others who are just initially starting and have !".O packages put together, if you .,.,.ill.

We must priori.ze the needs of chose. We will not be able, obviously, Mr. Speaker, perr~ps

November 9, 19i9 Tape No. 981 NM - 1 ?RE.'UER PECKFORD: to take care of ever1 single last application between now and March because that would mean - I L,ink the application value is somewhere around $20 million to $30 million- around $~0 million to $30 million ~f ~ew applications outstanding right now that have to be dealt with in addition to the ones already dealt with;in total value. That is one :...~ing. The o~~er thing is the ongoing review as it relates to policies of ~~e government for the next four or five years as part of our five year plan.

The government right now is about three-quarters the way through that review. There is an additior.al review on today of a department,for example_ this afternoon 1 and that should be completed by the end of the year and a five year plan issued. It is in that context that all the voluminous doc~~ents ~~at the Leader :;;f the Opposition mentioned are new being reviewed so that we have,as a government,a clear objective ~n aims and goals for the Depar~ent of Fisheries as we will for other departments in place ~y the New Year. :1R. SPEAKER (Simms): Opposition. HR. JP.J1IESON: A supplementary, the hen.

Leader of the /iell, Mr. speaker, may I just say in passing t!"tat I did :lOt seei< to interrupt the hen. the Premier but I wonde~ with regard to ~~e ?oint of Order that was raised yesterday '::::.y c.he hen. t..b.e House !:.eade:- about speeches in Question ?eriod 1 whetJ1er it ought not to appl:? to answers as well as to questions. :<lay I at the same time, however, say this, that I ·,.;ould like to know specifically if the doc~'nent to '<Jhich I nave referred, which talked about a five year J:)lan, and that was t·,.;o years ago, does t."lat mean now •,;e are talking about a ~ree year plan or are we talking about starting ==om square one?

The ?Oint ~~ac I ~~making ~s ~hat with enormous fanfare ~~e ?remier's predecessor and the former :1inister of ?isheries said !::.at "!:hey had :.he answers, t..I'J.a-c <;.,his was t..h.e ::ive jear fllan, t:.'lat c.his ·,.;as the review process and it is writ:-::.en clearly and unmistakcably and involves some very, ver7 sr:;ec.lfic ::.hings. 2470

November 9, 1979 'l'ape No. 981 HR. NEARY: T""<>v sent a nice coloured. pamphlet t.o every household in Newfoundland. HR. JAMIESON: YPs, and it .,.as widely dis- tributed. For instance, I want to ask the hon. 'che Premier in a specific way, is the matter of the superport" for Harbour Grace being reviewed, for example, because that was one of the things that was specifically spelled out as being a clear·cut cornmitmer.t of the government? • "l.R • .SPEAKER (SIMN.S) : P R£:;.'1IER PECKFORO: The honourable t."le Premier • :tr.

Speaker, all policies are being reviewed, as I indicated some time ago, as they relate to this. The plan that was presented, ·~e~~er it was a three or four - this government today and tomorrow, last week and this week and next week will be, and until the end of the year, reviewing all policies and plans of all departments to ?resent a fiue year plan from here on forward. ~e are looking at a UH - 2 five year plan from now.

We are not interested in looking, necess­ arily, at a plan ~~at started two years ago; we are going fr~~ now as a government to trj to develop five year plans, The "superport" concept !las been discussed wi~~ DREE, the Department of Fisheries in Ottawa 1 no later t.han t'NO or three days ago. 3uc the wnole quescion on policy of fish- eries,as it is for tourism, as it is for forestry,is being leaked at. 2471.

~ove~~er 9, 1979 Tape No. 982 DW - l PREMIER PECY~OPn: t:ocumcnr;.!l that have been researched and presented, the reports that have been made are all under review for all departments and we will be announcing in due course our policy objectives on fisheries for five years,by the end of the year. !1P .• S. NEARY: MR. SPEA..'I{ER (SIPJ-tS) : :1P.. S • NEARY : A supplementary, !1r. Speaker. The hen. member for LaPoile. !1.:::. Speaker, I want to came back to just one aspect of the questions asked by my colleague, the hon. Leader of the Oppcsiticn. : want to deal with the Fishery Loan ~card.

I will stan: out by askinq ,who is the han. gentleman ~yin~ to cod? Obviously, the Fisheries Loa~ Beard is in a mess. Word is leaking out that all the money was spent Cefore the election. The Premier tried to blame it on the fishermen on the board, Arthur i'licks c;aid this morning it is the fault of the politicians for mak~ng ~bber stamps out of the me1nbers of the Fisheries Loan Beard. Is there a review going on or is it an investigation, ~~uld the han. gentleman tell us? :1."0.. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PF.'!:'•1IER PECKFOP..D: Mr. Speaker, there is a review going on.

I did not say at any time and I de not know if somebody has alleged this inside this House now by the statement made by the metrber for LaPoile {Mr. Neary) 1 or people outside -I did not blame it on the fishermen or blame it on anybody.

The fact of the :natter is the increase in fishing activity i:1 this Province has increaser' the r.umber of applications to the Fisheries Lean Board to ~he extent that it is totally impossible in a short period of time, over 600 or 700 applicctions, given the fact t!->at we ;;,ave spent double the money that •.Je had last year already, t,o deal with it, until we totally review and priorize the applicatiors a!ld get a view as to ·..;hat kinds of monies we are going to !:e talking about .for the next twelve to eighteen months so that we can budget prcFerly on it.

There is no devious, weird and wonderful investigation going on, there is no blame being laid. The fact o£ the matter is that ~he .fishery is mushrooming. ;.;e have to be a!::le to reac-: ar'.d react in a way which shews sor::e planning and some .foresight, ana that is what we are about right now . :1.tt. S • ~EAF.Y : .l\ suppler..entary, :-tr. Speaker. ~72

November 9, 1979 .:-'.R. SPEAKER: (SI~.HS) !1R. 5. NEARY: all he wants, Sir~ Tape No. 982 ON - 2 A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. The han. gentleman can try to whitewash it fact of the matter is that the Fisheries Loan Board is in a ::1ess and that:. the government had to take drastic measures of curtailing the operations of the Fisheries Lean Board and we lost the minister in the pracess 1 who is now out running in a federal campaign - :·nt. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. S. NEARY: -and the question, ttr.

Speaker, is this, that fishermen, fishermen in my own district looking for engines and new boats cannot get their applications processed at the moment. Something drastic must have haFpened to stop that sort of thing. Is the han. gentleman being pushed in the direction of oil or is the whole Fisheries Lean Board situa~ion in a mess? When will the fishermen be able to get their applications approved? The ti."l'le is new, it is urgent, they -,.,ant their applications approved now. When will they be able to get them approved? The hen. the Premier. PRE!·!IER ?EC:!CFORD: :tr.

Speaker, i£ the hen. the :nember for LaPoile (Xr. Neary) has any additional information on the ?isheries Loan Board to back up and substantiate his allegations of it bei~g in a mess, I "NOUld appreciate the information. I ask the m~~er for LaPoile now i.E he !"las some information would he please provide it to the Actir.g Hinister of Fisheries (Hr. Goudie) 2473

November 9, 1979 Tape 983 EC - 1 PREMIER PEC<FORD: or provide it to myself or some other member of tha government so that \ole can pursue that - if he ha:s th.1.t. If the hon. the member for LaPoil.e {Mr. Neary) .,.,ants to make .t.llegations 1 would he pleue suh:stantiate them so that \ole ca.n make sure that after this rl!view is over th.at W'e have the full knowledge of the Fi.sheriea Loan ao.a.rd. I th.ink that is wry, very important. And the onus is on t..~e member for LaPoile n01o1 to provide that kind of infor.ution t.o this House or to the -government.

If he W<l.nts t.o m.ke al.ll!gations, ll!t him back up his allegations, becau:;e that is very, very importoa.nt. MR. NEARX: The Minister of Fisheries (inaudible). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECK.FORD: We had a lot of reh.abilitation on Bell Island back a few years ago when the hen. member was minister of a certUn department. SOME HON. !-mMBEF!S: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: {Simms) Order, please! PREMIER PEOCFORO; I woul.d not like to see just the fishermen of Bell Island get first-class traatment on this kind of a MR. NEARY: Tell us SOME HON. ME."iBERS : !1R. SPEA.I<ER: MR.

STIRLING: about the $100,000 on .'-iount Scio House. Oh, oh! Order, ple•se! Thl! hon. the member for Bon•vist<l l~orth. Thank you, Mr. Spe.aker. I would like to respond to the Premier's challenge.

There happens to be a. member of the board from Bon01.vista North representing 150 fishenen down there and he has said - I ·would like c;,.e Premier to 01.dvise whether or not he was .a.ware of t.'lree points - l} "\1e were overruled by political higher-ups." To be specific, the quote from .a. rember of t.he bo.a.rd W'U, •Two days before the l.as-:: federal election 1 we got messages to •pprove loOI.Ils we had illready turned down." Was the Premier OI.Wa.re of t.'lat political interference? MR~ SPEAKE?.: The hen .. th.e Premier.

November 9, 1979 Tape 983 EC - 2 P F.EMIER PECKFORD: No, Mr. Speaker, I Am not, but if the hen, the member for Bonoi.vista Nort.'l (Mr. Stirling) 1 or his people ~<~ho have communic.ated that info.t"lMtion to him will cormnunicOlte it to me, I would be ve:ry happy to receive it, bec.au.se I think that is the kind of information which is very va.lu.able to us in our review of the Fisheries Loan Board and the kind of mand.ate it will have in the future.

I th.ank the hen. the member for Bonavista ~orth for t.i.e info.nution, and if he has more information like t:hat that can be validated, I would be very h-.ppy to receive it. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: ( Sil':uns) A supplementary, the hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: Also, the member on the board representing fishermen from Bonavista Nort.~ says, ~I checked on the next meeting, when tb.e next meeting 1o10uld be held, and no one knew. I was told by one officioi.l that he did not know whether we had a boud or notr everything is in such Ol shambles." MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! I should point out to the hon. the member for Bonavista North, Standing Order 3l{

d) which s~ates cle~ly ~~at 'Oral questions mU5t not be prefaced by the reading of letters, telegrams, newspoi.per ex~:::act.s or

preambles of any kind." I would suggest that is what you are leading into, so I would direct you to ask Your question. MR. STIRLING~ Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I take your direction. Could I say, though - and I accept your direction - 2475

Nove~~er 9, 1979 Tape No. 984 NM - 1 MR. STIRLING: that the ?remier had asked for any such evidence and it was in giving such evidence that I quoted, I would ask the question now is the Premier aware that a member of the Board was told recently that t.""ley did not know '#hen the next meeting would be, did not know 'Nhet."ler they had the board and whethe:: or not the board was in a shambles? Is the Premier aware of that? ~R. SPEAKER {Simms): The hon. the Premier. ?RE!1IER ?ECKFGRDt I am aware of it in the -.;ay that the han. member for Eonavista North (Hr. Stirling) puts t.l-te question.

I am aware that communication between the Fisheries Loan Board and the fishermen indicated that they were not sure when there '#ould be another :neeting at which new applications would be discussed 1 and approved or rejected,because we are into the process of review and therefore additional applications •,.;ould not be studied and passed or rejected. I am aware of it on that basis. I am not aware that the Fisheries Loan Board is in a shambles.

I a~ aware that all the money has been spent f8r this year and therefore we are reviewing all the whole Fisheries Loan Board acti•Jities to try to determine :.ow we are going to handle ::he backlog of applications bet'#een now and t,h,e end of March. Mr. Speaker. !1R. STI?..L!!:'G: A final supplementary. MP.. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition, !1.11.. JAktiESON: ~r.

Speaker, may I ask the hen. the Premier if in his review or investigation,or whatever wording he wishes to apply to it,·will he study Hansard for the Summer session and read: t.'l.e answers given by the ~'len Hinister of Fisheries with regard to the future of t:.he Fishe:=ies Loan Board 'dhich certainly, :: suggest, indicated that matters ;...ere •,;ell in hand and that i..ndeed t.1.e government: had a very comprehensive and ongoing ;?rogramrne which '..tas :tot in any jeopardy.

I think it is reasonable to put ::hat question t.o -:.~e Premier and c:.o ask lcim if he Wlll look at L~at and ::o tell us what happened between Ausust ~,d !1overr.ber, ~R. S?EAKZR (Sir.nsl: The hon. tlte ?remier. 2476

November 9, 1979 Tape No. 984 NH - 2 ?P£.'1IER ?ECKFORO! I am aware of Hansard, Mr. Speaker, and any salient information contained by any minister of the day as it relates to the activities of the Fisheries Loan Board of course will be accommodated in the overall study that we are now involved in. MR. E'. ROWE: The han. me~ber for Trinity-Bay de Verde. Mr. Speaker, a supplemen~ary to the Premier.

In view of the information that has come out here ~his morning with respect to the confusion with respect to the five year plan and the superport, the confusion within the Fisheries Loan Board, if in fact there is a Fisheries Loan Board, and the strong feeling, Sir, the very strong feeling amongst the fishermen of this Province that the emphasis, the philosophical emphasis of this government has switched completely from t~e fisheries to offshore oil and gas, and the fishermen feel ·~ery worried about this - M.'ti.. NEARY: Right on. Right on. 2477

~Ioverr.l:::er 9,1979 Tape No. 985 All-1 !1R. F.R'JWE: - will ~~e Premier indicate to ~~e House whether he is intending to appoint a full-time ~~nister of Fisheries right away instead of putting it off until Christmas or after Christmas or sometime in the New Year? I might just re-emphasize for the Premier's information tha~ I have spent a considerable ~~aunt of time in my district over the past couple of weeks, Sir, and ~~e fishermen are terribly concerned ever all this confusion, number one, and secondly, the apparent shift from- SOME RON. MEHBEPS : Ch, oh! HR.F.

ROiiE: This is the seriousness with which the hen. members opposite, Sir, treat such an important matter. I would suggest ~~at it is important that the Premier of ~~is ?rovince appoint a full-time Minister of Fisheries straightaway very week, particularly when you look back at the emphasis ~~at was put on the fisheries over the past eight or seven years. XR. SPEAKER: (Simms) The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: .Mr.

Speaker, as ! mentioned in response to questions and allegations made by the member for LaP~ile (M.r.Neary) yesterday, t.~e Opposition will not succeed in trying to divert us away from t.~e fisherf and from forestrJ and from tourism in this hen. House. If they want to try and divert us they •..;ill not. SOME HOU. MEMEEF.S: Hear, hear~ PP..E.'!IER PECKFOPD: There is no way t.l-tat ~'1e :nember for Trinity-E~y de Verde (Mr.F.PDwe),or any other me~ber on t.~e opposite side is going to stop us from doubling our budget on the fishery. ~. J.i\J1I'E'SCN: ~1R. SPEAKER: The hen. Leader of ~1-te Opposition. !1R.

JJI.JliESCN: A point of order. A point of order has been raised. Mr. Speaker, •wnat is sauce for the goose, is sauce for t.~e gander,' and I suspect the government, new that it is getting goosed 1is doing the very things which t....'1e hen. t:J1e House Leader objected to and I ask !or a ruling en your part as to whether 2478

Noverr..ber 9, 1979 Tape no. 9135 AH-2 MR. JA.I.f!ESON: it is appropriate for the Premier to make a speech in answer to a question. P RE!iiER PECKF0P-D: ~R. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : Premier. P~~IER PECKFORO: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order. The hen. the I was not making a spee~~. I made two sentences. I issued two sentences and it took me somewhere around seventeen or eighteen seconds, if anybody was trJing to listen to me, and I do not consider that to be a speech. I think ! was completely in order and consistent with the line of questioning that was being presented by the opposition.

SOME HON. ~MFEPS: Hear, hear! ;1R. SPEAKER: To the point of order. The Standing Orders 31 and all ~~e subsections therein contained are very clearin Cealing with answers to questions and so on. The minister, in fact, may not even answer ~~e question if he does not wish to. I would suggest that the hen. the Premier, in my opinion, at ~~at ?oint in ~ime was preparing to answer the question asked by the hon. member for Trinity­ Bay de 'Jerde (Mr.F .Rowel. A supplementary. The hen. mel'l'.ber for Trinity Bay Ce Verde, followed Cy tb.e hen. :r.err.ber :Zor t!"le Torngat Mountains.

MR.F.?Oh"E: New that all the •Jiclent turbulence ~as settled down, would the Premier mind answering the question I put to him wi~~ respect to when he is prepared to appoint a full-time 2479

:-klvember 9, 1979 Tape No. 9~Fi SD - 1 MR. F. ROWE: mini.ste:r and does he: feel the same urgen~f about that appointment as the fishermen of this Province? !iR. SPE.P-.KER: (Hr. Simms) PREMIER PECKFOP.D: The hon. ~~e Premier. Yes, ~. Speaker, as soon as possible there will, number one, be a full-~ime ~inister of Fisheries. The ma~ter is of such importance now tha~ the full Cabine~ and Planning and Priori~ies Committee of Cabinet are studing ~~e ;ishery and are administering the Department of Fisheries.

It is such an important matter right now that the full Cabinet is totally involved in it, day by day, and in due course ar~ in due time there will be a full-time Iiinister of Fisheries put into that depart:rnent 1 no question about ::hat .. The reason why I did not answer the ques~ion earlier was simply because ~he !'.on. member from Trinity- Bay de Verde (Hr. F. Rowe) was trying ~o divert me away from the fisher,{ and that he will not do. MR. F. RO'iot"E: MR. SPEA.I<;ER: Trinity~- Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

A point of order, ~~e han. member for The hen. the Premier is questioning the motives of a han. member of this House during the Question Period, and ! suggest ~~at he is completely cut of order with these kinds of remarks and ask him to retract it. SOME HON • :~MEERS: Oh, oh~ PREMlE?. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, ~~e han. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde indicated in his questioning that somehow or other ~~e government was more interested in offshore oil and gas than in fisheries and therefore it was in response - SO!-'.E HW. XEHEERS: Hear, hea:. PREMIER PEC:<FORD: and therefore, ~r.

Speaker, it was in resp-onse to that kind of question, it was in response to that kind of state.:nent ~~at I indicated w the han. we::ilier that in no way was the :ne..'"lber for Trinit:t - aay de Verde going to divert ~'tis governr.~ent away f=cm t.'i.e fishery. near, hear. 2480

November 9, 1979 Tape !-lo. 986 so - 2 MR. SPEAKER: (Hr. S.L."lmS) To the point of order, my ruling would be that there is clearly a difference of opinion between hon.members in this particular case. and not a point of order. The han. member for Tornga t !1ountains. Mr. Speaker, in light of che attention focused on health care in Labrador, in particular in Goose Say during the past week or so, I believe it would be appropriate to ask a question to the :-1inister of Health (Mr. w. House).

Also, in conversations with many l.'esidents of t.'le area, there is an apparent understanding that patients are having difficulty in getting referrals to hospitals outside of Labrador 1 to specialists that are not available in Goose Bay • If this be the case, would the minister instruct doctors in the Lake Melville Hospital, in particular 1 to refer all patients whose medical conditions are beyond the expertise of local doctors? M..Ti.. SPEAKER: !1R. fl. HOOSE: The hen. Hinister of H~alth. :1r. Speaker, I just do not k."'lcw e."'actly how to respond fully to that question.

It is very difficult. :'hat hospical, the Melville Hospital, of course, is a primary care unit. r~ cooes under the Grenfell ~ission, it is aperaced by the Gxenfell Xission,and the regional hospital is in St:. Anthony and they do have a full slate of specialists in the hospiea1 and they visit there periodically. And, of course, doctors do refer patients and I th.ink it is not within the ambit of the Department of Health to direct the hospital that works under a Board to refer patients. ~81.

November 9, 1979 Tape No, 987 NM - 1 HR. HOUSE: There is a mechanisrn 1 i£ there is negligence or anything of that nature, to deal with the problem. The facts, I think, stem from a little bit of a controversy that has happened in the past couple of weeks "Nhich we are aware of and we are investigating. Also, there '.vas a public meeting last night in Goose Bay at which the member for the area was in attendance and, of course, ~~ey will be confronting me later with some suggestions.

But the fact is that I cannot direct doctors to refer all patientsj that is a medical opinion and ~~e department cannot make that decision. MR. SPEAKER (Simms)~ Torngat Mountains. MR. NARREN: A supplementarJ. The han. me~ber for A supplementary. If doctors do refer patients from Labrador to hospitals on the Island portion of the ?rovince,woould the minister assure this House that any patients who would be referred to doctors an the Island would not have to pay any more for transportation to that hosptial than patients on the Island portion of w~e Province: HR.

HOUSE: I cannot give that assurance fully but T must advise that the •;thole !l".atter of transportation to hospital is under review and ·....-e are moving in that direction, the di:::ection you sugges'ted. HR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: for Torngat :·1ountains. A final supplementary. A final supplementary. T,he han. mernber In light of che two answers that I got :.:::om the han. :1-inister of Health, which to say the least ! believe 'tJere very •;ague, I would ask the minister has he considered, as of today, instituting a public enquiry into ~ealt.'! care in Labrador:' SQ!.i~ H0!1. :1E!1EERS: Hear, hear! :1?..

SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Health. :-m. HOUSE: :Olell, of course, anything of t-hat nature you always consider when ::ontrovers.tes an.se. :.:e have :10t dete!:::'lined c:hat we are going ~a have an enqui!:'!. :ve are investigating the matter that was in question, 1::: was on television a couple of weeks .:tgo. :·ie are

November 9, 1979 Tape :-:Ia, 967 NM - 2 MR. HOOSE: i~vestigating that and 1 of course 1 we 'Hill be taking a look at t..'le results of the meeting that was held last night. 1'-f.R. SPEAKER (Simms): M.tt. JfoJ1IESON: The hen. Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transportation and Communications and it flows from your indulgence yesterday in permitting me to make a comment about the potential hazard with regard to the overpass at Sunnyside, Come By Chance, but also ! understand as 'Nell from some of the residents of Arnold's Cove, that with regard to the turn off at that location, that there is also a hazard.

I can confirm, as I believe the han. minister can, t..i.e Sunnyside, Come By Chance one because I have driven over it half a dozen times since it has been open. 'Nonder if he would be good enough to indicate to t..'le House what he indicated earlier 1 publicly,that they were looking at it. Is there some immediate solution or something that can be done in the immediate future to alleviate that problem 1 particularly because of the school buses and the like? HR~ SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Transportation and Ccrnmunicaticns. Mr.

Speaker, ~s I indicated publicly sone time ago,we were under the impression that ::unds were to be made available through t~e TCH agreement to construct overpasses at Come 3y Chance, Arnold 1 s Cove and Sunnyside ar.c! unfortun.ately the funds did not come t.'l.rough. In the case of Come By Chance and Sunnyside we had already started construction of t.'l.e fcur lanes and it was gone coo tar to stop it. ~o we did what you see there now. 'He !lave tt"o lanes an each sic!e with the medilli~ in the centre.

We have to agree that even though it is ;?robably better than what was ~here before, it is dangerous. 5o 'Jihat we ars doing, for the inforwation of the non. member, we are going to bar of£ c:he :.we lanes on the Sunnyside porti.on, we are going to bar that of£ altogether and - no I ar:1 3orry, we are going to have one lane on each side. In other words, we are going to go back to exactly '"'hat it 'Has before. 1'hat is what we are golng to :io. :-1e will bar of£ one lane 2483

November 9, 1979 Tape No. 987 NM - 3 going West and one lane going East and this will leave more space, so as a bus or car comes out of Sunnyside or Come By Chance it. 'Hill only have to c:::"oss one lane of traffic and then there will be a larger area in the middle where the bus or car can stop and watch for oncoming traffic. But in a nutshell, what it ~ill be is we are going back to what it was in the beginning, one lane going West ~~d one lane going East. :1.tt. JA.'1IESON: A supplementar7. MR. S?EJI...KER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

JA.."1IESON: ! am not especially competent as an engineer to know '!lhet."ler this is an appropriate answer or not. It is clearly something less 1 r am sure, than would be desirable. I ~onder has the minister or any of his officials consulted, i£ not

NOVe.n".ber 9, 1979 Tape No. 988 DH - l MR. l). JA~1IESON: tori th the town ::ouncils and the like =utperhaps school boards or others who w.ay be interested in the areai And is it known to the minister whether or not they feel that this is the best alternative under the circunstances!

I make the point because I '"'auld hope that there would be some kind of consultation so that we will not have to find out six or eight or ten weeks £ram now that what was done was pot satisfactory or not the best tr~t could be done under the circ~ilstances. !n shor; has there been consultation and is this solution satisfactory? :.!R. SPEAKER: The hon, Minister of Transportation and Communications. :1R. C. BRETT: To the best of my knowledge there was no consultation with the council in that area, This recommendation was put to me by the engineers.

I do not think it is the best solution; the best solution would be the overpass both at Arnold's Cove and Come by Chance/ Sunnyside. But at least. it is as it was before and -r do not :=eally see 'Nhat else can be done. It was suggested that:. we would put lights there but ! do not think that this wculd Lrnprove the situation all the r::uch. Really,! do not see any alternative but to put it back as it was before. 3:n the :neantime, '"'hen we go to Ottawa leaking =or a new TCH agreexr.ent we will be requesting money for the overpasses at both Sunnyside/Come by Chance and .'\rnold' s cave. • li,N HCN. ~~ER: :1R.

SPEAK.ER: A supplementary . Order, please! The time fer oral Questions has expired. ?RESE!lTING ?£PORTS BY STANDI~iG AND SPEc:AL CCM.."1ITTEES :1R. S?!':'AXER: The hen. ~inister of Lands and Forests. MR. J. :-!ORG;'J..N: Mr. Speaker, ! .,...ish to tahle a report, It is not really from a standing or special carnmictee of chis House because of the fac~ cha~ these reports are :rom experts in the field we ;,ad :.o avail of in this case, who are ?ederal Goverr-'Tient employees. T~ey are from the ?ederal

Novetrtber 9, 1979 Tape No. 988 OH - 2 E'orestry Service. We engaged them to carry cut a special study on the infestation in the forests of our Province especially with regard to the budworrn situation, so :r now hereby table this report and, of course, make it public accordingly. NOTICES OF Y.O'~'ION ~. SPEA~R (SU!!v!S): The hen. President of the Council. :-m. '.1. YI~.RSHALL: Mr. Speaker, under Standing Order 87 of the rules of this House, changes in the complement of membership of Standing Committees may be effected merely by a notice signed by the Government House Leader.

As all members are aware, there is a vacancy in the Standing Committee of the Public Accounts Committee.! think it would be entirelj inappropriate 'Nhen you are talking about, despite the rules; cf ""hen a ;:;ermanent vacancy in the Standing Committee for :r.e just to do it merely on tho basis of a letter. So, consequently I am going to crive notice of motion nov .1nd I hope, with the consent of the House,that •,;e can also pass the :r;otion immediatelv, -r move that the han. me.'!'lber for Lewisporte (Hr. 'Nhit.

e) become a ~ember of the Public Accounts Co~~ittee succeeding the farner metrber for Eurgeo - 3ay d' Espoir. (!"'.r. Simmons)- I could say, ~r. Speak!!r, that if this motion is passed we wculd ask the members of the Public Accounts Cctr.mittee here to get together this morning for the purpose of selecting a new Chairman_ since "'e are all anxious that the proceedings of the ?ublic Accounts CotrJnittee proceed expedi tbusly. SOME HON. :.W!-.1BEF.S: :m. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! Ycu have heard the motion, Is it the pleasure of the House then to adopt that said motiort:' Those i.n favour 'aye', - :1R. S.

HE,\RY: It is a debatable rr.otion, I presume. ~1..!1.. SPEAKER: Yes, i~ is debatable. Oh, ::~h! The hon. member :or LaPoi~e. \·Jell, ! do ::10t want t"' delay the proceedings, Sir, !:.:ut there is some::hing ::l:at has concerrer' :ne i.l.baut the ?ublic Accounts Ccmmittee and :;rocedure :or some time and ! think now is the time :or rr:e to 2486

November 9, 1979 Tape No. 988 DN - 3 :-!,R. S. NEARY: get it off my =hest. I want to congratulate my colleague, the member for Lewisport:e {}!.r. Hhite), if the motion is passed, for becoming the new member of the Public Accounts Committe. I think he will make a very good addition, a very qood contribution to that committee. But, Mr.

Speaker, the thing that concerns me about the Public Accounts Committee is the fact that they have no authority; as far as I can see, to make recotr~endations against mll1isters who violate the ?ublic Tendering Act and I am referring specifically to the violations of the Public Tendering Act by the present Minister of Lands and Forests U".r. _;;. Morgan) when he was :.tinister of - MR. W. MARSHALL: A point of order 1 Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEA."<ER: The han. President of the Council. }".R. W. ~.ARSF.ALL: The purpose of this motion, notice of motion given# is purely and sL~ply to replace a m~~er on the committee.

The adequacy of the proceedings and how they relate to 2487

November 9,1979 Tape No, 989 Aif-1 the House I suggest , ~r. Speaker, are other issues and i! the hen. member wishes to bring them up, indeed the hen. me~~er can bring them up at various points in time by substantive motions if he wishes in the House itse1f,or for that matter if t.~e hen. ll'ember1 as an~· hen. me:nber ir. this House1 if he '"'ishes to attend the proceedings of the Public Accounts Committee himself* Anybody can, any member that is,can attend al~~ough it is only the memberzhip t.i.emselves -who can vote on issues.

But the han. member now is out of order because what re is really doing is debating the effectiveness or otherwise of the Public Accounts Committee per se and this motion is a motion for the replacement of a member. !1R. NEARY': MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) me~ber for LaPoile. ~R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. To the point of order. The hen. Mr. Speaker, I would submit to Your Honour that I am not out of order because the hen. gentleman says I am out of order. I am completely in order. Mr. S~eaker, we are appointing a new member to the Public Accounts Committee. That is a-major decision of this House.

The ~on. gentleman has been trying to suppress debate now in this House ever since we met last Summer. The hen. gentleman has managed to ship the estimates out cf Confederation Building into the boar~ rooms of various buildings around St. John's and now he is trying to suppress debate on a major decision in ~~is Rouse. l~r.

Speaker, I would submit to Your Honour that this gentleman, my colleague who is being appointed to the Public Accounts Committee, Sir, wiH be restricted in his activities and I have ever; right to tell the House hew I think he will be restricted. !t has a direct bearing on his appointment and I would sutmit to Your Honour that I am completely in order. :-m. SPEl·..KER: Han. rnemters 1 I •o~ould like to ac!jcurn for fiv·e ~inutes to consult some precedents. 2488

November 9, 1979 Tape 990 E:C - 1 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order, please! With respect to the point of order raised by the hen. the President of the Council, there are a few points I would like to make. First of all, it is a substantive :notion, u everybody is aware, md it. is debatable, therefore. The rotion, however, is to tlppoin.t • substitute member to a par--~cula.r commi. ttee .md the question arises, How relevant is debate pertaining to the effectiveness of said committee. as it:. applies to this particular notion? And the parliiii.Jllentary reference that I have used in t.~is puticul.a.r case is Beauchesne, Fifth Edition, Page 98, Paragr•ph 299, which points out that "

l) Relevancy is not easy to define. In borderline cases the !-f.ember should be given the benefit of the doubt." Therefore, I would have to give the benefit of the doubt to t.i.e hen. the member for LaPoile (Hr. Ne•r.

f) and ask him to continue. But may I remind the hen. member t.~at he should confine his remarks to t:.he motion it3elf, which is t.he •ppointment of a. member to said committee. The hen. t..i.e member for LaPoile. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Thank you, ~r. Speaker. It is a great day for democracy, Sir. '!he hen .. gentleman, the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall), is hellbent on restricting debate in t.~s House .nd muzzling the Opposition. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, we are now in t:..'1e process of appointing a substitute member for the Public Acco\Ults Committee to take t:.he place of a mtlll who is now out campaigning in a :ecieral by-election, !1r. Roger Simmons, who I believe, Sir, should be recognized and commended by members on be~~ sides of this hen. House for the wonderful job t:..'1at that gentlem.an did as Chairman of t.'1e Public Accounts Committee - absolutely outstanding! SOME HON. MEMBEP.S: MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Newfoundlanders should be ever grateful to Mr. F.cger Simmons for tile · ... onderful job that he did, in t:..i.e face, 2489

November 9, 1979 T<~.pe 990 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I might say, of an attempt by the government to do a hatchet job on Mr. Siimi'Cins back in 1977, when the hon. gentleman was Oltirm.ut of the Public Accounts Committee and was o1.ccused of plo1.yi.ng politic:s with the Public Accowtts Committee, was accused by hon. members, who held senior positions in the government of that day, including the Premier of the Province, who seemed to have some kind of a personal vendettot against Mr. Simmons. But anyway 1 he carried on <and the next thi.n.g we lolew ._.. b.ad two Public Accounts Committees going - we had the government Public Accounts Committee, which wots a complete fuce, and 2490

November 91 1979 Tape No. 991 SD - 1 M. S. NEARl': we had the real Public Accounts Committee even though they only i"'.ad three nembers, they ....ere outnumbered, outvoted by the government sham committee, they, nevertheless, carried on 1 anci I believe my hon. colleague tr~ me~er for Baie Verte- White Bay (!1r. T. Rideout) was one of t.he members who carried on 1 and they did the best they could under the circulnstances. Will t:.h.at happen new, Mr. Speaker( Will it happen again? E".ren with us putting a new man on, although I do not believe my colleague from tewisporte (Mr. F.

White) is new, I believe he served on the Public Accounts Committee once before. I do not know what:. happened that he got off the Public Accounts Committee,whe~~er he became disillusioned, frustrated or what. Mr. Speaker, putting t.he member for Lewisporte back on the Committee certainly meets with my approval and I am glad to see that we have a man of experience going back on the Public Accounts Committee. aut, :1x.

Speaker, I have a few questions t:.o ask and I want hen. members to dwell for a mcment on these questions because I t..,_ink t.."ley are very significant and very important questions. what happens :o the member for Lewisporte and what happens to my colleague the member fer Baie Verte (!tr. T. Rideout) and what happens to my colleague for Bonavist:.a North (:-tr. L. Stirling) when they encounter wrongdoing on the par~ of the minister? What can 1 ~. Freeman \'lhite' do about. :hat? ·.'~hat can he do about. it? I know I should not refer to him by his full name but what can he do about it?

Can t..,_e ~ember for Lewisporte,or any other member of t..,_e Commiteejrecommend that the Justice Jepar~ent investigate the activities of ~~at ~~nister who broke ~~e law? :.-m. MORGAn: Who are you referring to? M. S. :'lEARY: :·!R. :«JRGAN: :.LR.. 5 • ~lEARY : r beg your pardon. Who 3.:re you .ce.:::erring ~a? What am I referring ~? ~r. Speaker, if t.'1e han. gentle.'tlan would just be a little patient, just be a litr:.le ;::ati~nt L>e :..on .. gentlema."\ ...,ill get - You said 't~t' m~nist:er. :·Jhy could you ~ot ~a~e him?

November 9, 1979 Tape !lo. 991 SD - 2 HR. S. :U:ARY: Mr. Speaker 1 there were a number of ministers,~o my recollection, a number of ministers who have broken the law of this land. .:1-R. SPEAKER: (.'1r. Si.-n."t!

S) Order, please! Order, please! The han. m~~er,again! must point out 1 should be relevant to the motion which is to appoint a member to a committee. I would ask him to stick to that parl!icular vein. Mr, Speaker, I am asking the government eo t.ell me, I am asking the Minister of Justice (t>l.r. Ottenheirner) to tell me what auc~ority this substitute member will have? Will he have C~e authority to deal with ministers who admit wrongdoing, who admit that ~~ey have broken ~~e law of ~~is land, who admit that they have broken the laws of this Legislature?

That,perhaps,and if I may call ~~e hon. member to order aaain, is a question that :night be rr.cre appropriate!" asked durinq Question Period and not during debate on this particular motion. The hon. member may continue, ~ -~~: Well, M.r, Speaker, ! do not know what ather -..ay ::: can get at this. We are talking a.l::::out one of our colleagues who is going to be appointed to the ?ublic Accounts rnmmittee and ! want to know -..nat authority the hen. qentle:nan will have. We are now having a debate on his appointment 1 and I want to know -..nat authority he will have..

How does he go about - and I a:n not asking Your Oonour, I am asking the people on ~~e o~,er side of the house to give me the explanation - how does he go about dealing with wron~~oing, admission by a minister, that he has broken the law? How does my colleague deal ··lith that? Does it go into l!he annual report of t."J.e Public Accounts Committee which will be tabled in ~~is House? Anci if it does go into the annual report, l!hen how will it be dealt witl;.? or can my colleague, if he wants to make a 2492

November 9, 1979 Tape No. 992 NM - 1 HR. NEARY: minority report, if nobody else on the committee agrees wit.h him, can my colleague, the member for Lewisporte (Mr. fl11ite) make a minority report? Can he ask the Hinister of Justice, for instance, can he ask L~e Minister of Jus~ice for advice, for counselling? Z know ~he ~inister of Justice acts as the Attorney General who will give legal advice to the government, but can he give advice to the Public Accounts Committee and my colleague whom we are going to appoint new?

Can my colleague go to the Minister of Justice and say, "Look, a minister has ad.-nitted that he broke the law"? Noboby is above the law~ Nobody can break the law, not even a minister, dod the Cabinet cannot absolve a minister for breaking the law_, no more than the Canadian Legion can, no ~ore than the ?ublic Utilities Board can, no mare than the Sports Recreation can, nobody but nobody can absolve a minister for breaking the law. So what happens, :1r. Speaker, when a minister admits t.a my colleague that he has broken the law?

Does the Minister of Justice then give advice to his colleague and say "You must take action, he must be placed under house arrest, he must be disciplined, he must be suspended !:rom the Cabinet "? 1-lhat is the procedure? That is all ! am asking. we have a case before us where a min~s~er has admitted breaking the law but he adds that he was ~solved by the Cabinet. The Cabinet cannot absolve a :ninister. 11.'?.. :40RGAN: Name the minister. MF.. HICKEY: He is not allowed to under the rules. :1..l'<.. NEARY: The Speaker just told me ! could not do it.

I would :1ot :nind doing it 1 Your Honour,but I want to obey 'lour Honour's ruling. l suggest to the hen. member that that ·;~auld be "Jery w~se and ask hi!:'l to continue. So, :1r. Speaker, r:1.y ;:;r:..me concern, ~y maln concern about even appointing a subst~tute, t~e reappoint:..~gaf :he :ne~.ber for Lewisporte - 2493

November 9, 1979 MR. STAGG: HR • .HORGAN: Tupe No. 992 NH - 2 How cOme you did not get on the Committee? ~ They would not have him on the Committee. He bawled and roared to get on the Committee; they would not have him on the Committee. :.m. S?EAKER ( S inms) : :.rn. 110RGAN: the Cerr.mittee. :1R. SP~KER: MR. MCRGAN: job, like he was made fer it. HR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for LaPoile. YI.R. NEARY: Order, please~ He scraps and roars and bawls to get on order. He wanted to get to be Chairman, take 'Roger's' The hon. member for LaPoile has the floor. Mr.

Speaker, we are well used new to the minister who is a source of embarrassment to the present Premier. There are t•.vo ministers, two hangovers - ~1R. S?EAKER: Order, please~ The han. mewber ~~cws that he must be relevant to the motion. I have already reminded him on three occasions and I would ask him to please continue. HR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the only thing that I csn say, Sir, is that if the Public Accounts Committee- if :ny hon. colleague that we are appointing now is going to do an ef!:ective job on that Ccmmit~ee, then we must know, and ~e must :eel in our hearts that this House is since~e, ~at ~is House is not just going to whitewash abuses of the law, is not going to tole~ate a ~iniste~ breaking the law, that there is going to be no whitewash as we saw this morning on the !!'isheries Loan Board. These matter:s have to be -iealt ·Nit.h, ;.tr.

Speaker, because the pubL .. c of ':his ?rovince, t..."le public when they hear a mi~ister admit that he broke ~~e law, t...~en what repercussions does that: have on the general public of ::his ?rovince? Do they not :=eel ::hac ~hey can also break the law?

November 9, 1979 Tape :1o. 992 NM - 3 It is a very serious matter, ;.tr, Speaker, a ver] serious matter indeed and something that has to be dealt with by this House or by the Premier. The law has been broken. There has been an admission that the law was broken ~at on one occasion, en two or ~~ree occasions and it has to be dealt with. ! hope that my hon. colleague, whom we are now putting on this Committee, will see to it ~hat there will be no whitewashing in the future, that the Committee will have some teeth when they uncover wrongdoing, chat it will be thoroughly investigated.

There will be an attempt made by my colleague to find out if the recipient of political patronage, for instance, contributed to the election campaign of the party in power, or if the reci?ients of these goodies donated to the candidates involved in the leadership convention. These ~~ings have to be looked at, Sir. ~nat were the reasons 2495

Noveli'..ber 9,1979 Tape No. 993 ~Ji-1 MR. NEARY: for these goodies being doled out, bY_-:_passing the Public Tendering Act;; Was there any wrongdoing? They have to be investigated. l':e just cannot ignore them. ~·7hat were the reasons? Then,having discovered the reasons 1 what action? There is no excuse for breaking the law, Mr. Speaker, that is what I am saying. No excuse for breaking the law. And a minister cannot go down l:::efore my colleague , the member for Lewisporte (Mr.Nhite) or any other member of the Committee and say, 'Yes 1 I broke the law but Cabinet knew about it.' He cannot be absolved.

We have seen too much of this, Mr. Speaker, in the past 1 too mu~~ of it and we are going to have to put an end to it and the only way to put an end to it is to have a fullfledged debate and let us find out if the government are going to- if my colleague, ~~e substitute that we are now appointing,if he does a good job, a thorough job fer ~~e people of this Province, as! know he will, if he uncovers wrongdoing and scandal,will the government then start to sulk and say, 'Well we are not going to go along with this. 'rle want to get rid of hirn; get him off the Committee/as they did with Mr. Sitr.mons?

Is that what ~~ey will do?- Start to sulk again and come out publicly and say the opposition is playing politics with it? Is ~~at what they indend to do? The real test, Mr. Speraker, and I will end en this note, ~~e real test will come next week. The law has been broken- we know ~,at; there has been an admission of it- absolvedby the Cabinet so we are to:d,which I doubt very much. MR. SPEAKER: (Sir.~

s) Order,please! The hen. merr.her, I believe, is continuing to st::ay from the motion itself and not being relevant, so I would ask him to please be relevant to the motion and to conclude his remarks if that is what he wishes to do. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I conclude my remarks by saying that I hope that my colleague from Lewisporte (!1r. 't:hite), Sir, will put what I am saying to ~,e test next week and the only way he can put it to t.,e test is to press for some act.icn aga!.nst t!lis 24S6

Nove!t'ber 9,1979 ~R. NEARY: the law of this land. MR. ~.OP.GAN~ MR. SPEAKER:(Sirerns} Forests. Tape No. 993 AH-2 minister who has admitted breaking Mr. Speaker. The hen. minister of Lands and :.m. !1QRGA:h Mr. Speaker, I was not going to get involved in this debate. It is merely ~,e appointment of a merrber to ~~e Public Accounts committee, a very appropriate and straightforward resolution. However, the words of the last speaker prompt me to get to :ny feet because I am, on Tuesday morning 1 appearing before the Public Accounts Committee. Mr.

Speaker, I have to say in ~~e outset that today when you are in public life you are subject to abuse and innuendo, MR. JAMIESON: ~1R. SPEAKER: of the Opposition. MR. J}J<i!ESON: A point of order. A point of order. The Leader Wi~~ respect, sir, the hon. member is surely inconsistent wi~, your own ruling on this matter. There was no reference made to the hen. merrber and I suggest that he,toqis straying well from what we have learned from your own ruling , Sir. ~R. MRSHALL: Hr. Speaker, first of all ~~e hen. merrber has hardly said much more than a coup!e of dozen words so we do not know what he is going to say.

But I would point out to. f'onr Honour ~,e fact ~~at the hen. rr.ember for LaPoile(!A.r.~rear;) was given a certain latitude to be able to rr.ake certain staterr.ents which had obvious, if they ~97

November 9, 1979 Tape 994 EC - l HR. MARSHALL: were not direct references to the bon. minister,( they were certainly the innuendoes that we have been accustomed to from the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), in which he: has become quite skilled - SOME EON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: - .nd that the hon. the minister should be entitled to say a few words in reply thereto, since it formed a large: part, and perhaps the only part, of the debate from the hon. the member for LaPoile. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAICZR: (Simms) I would certainly agree that the hon. minister is entitled to make a few remarks. I would like to point out once again that the area of relevancy is a very difficult area for the Chair to determine. I would only emphasize a.qain that tb.e motion is to appoint an individuoill, an hon. member of this House, to a particular committee, and I would ask any members participating in the debate to try to keep their comments pertaining to the motion. 'l'be hen. the Minister of Lands a.nd Forests. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, as ! was s.aying, subject to innuendo - but not i.lw.ays does the member of t..'le House of ,:\ssembly expect the innuendo to come from one of his own peer!! in the House witb.out, first of a..ll, his own peer being given the c.'l.a.n.ce: to put forward his own evidence, hi!! own documentation and his own total information and argument regarding a comment made in the Auditor General's report. ln alleged contravention of the Public Tendering Act is the charge and I .am involved.

Surely, the right of the individual is to stand before the Public Accounts COmmittee, ',<~hich is the scrutinizer of the ;._uditor General's report. That is t.\;e role of t.'1e Public Accounts Commit:tee, a non-partisan group acting in a non-partisan way. That is their role, Mr. speaker, to scrutini:te the report by the Auditor General, to scrutinize whether th.e Minister of Transportation in 1976 contravened the Public Tendering Act 2498

November 9, 1979 Tape 994 EC - 2 MR. MORGAN: or net. Let them decide, but only decide a.fter listening to the minister concerned, to his deputy a.t the time, his officials and .all of them, a.nd then decide. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGANt But do not condemn a man before he is given a c:h.ance to put forward h.is ovn documentation. Do not stand and condemn one of your own peers before he is allowed to submit evidence accordingly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Heu, hear! MR. MORGAN: Because today I can stand, Mr_.

Speaker, in this Assembly a.nd s"Und a.nywhere in this Province ..nd say; I did not o1dmit to breaking any law beco1use I am convinced, Mr. Speaker, I did not break ;any law in this Province. I am convinced of that. SOME HON. ME."iliERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order, please! MR. MORGAN: And on Tuesday morning, Mr. Spe~er, when t.~e member for Lewisporte (Mr. F. White) - today we are appointing him - when he sits in his place on t.~e Public Accounts COmmittee he ca.n zero in a.nd question me en every det.a.iled,intim.ate question he wants to pu1:. to me on that matter.

The same wit.'l t."lte member for a.Ue verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout) - we are talking about the Public Accounts Committee - t.'lat is their role. OUr own members on t.'le gcvernlnt!nt side, I want them to do the same t.b.ing, zero in on 'Jim !-forgan' who was t..l;en t.'le Minister of Transport•tion, but only after they gather all evidence and only after they hear all r have to say. And every scrap and tittle and jot of information regarding what ! did in Transportation or in Tourism or in any other portfolio will be laid out to t..~e public. 'Morgan) does not hide any-::..'ling - he never did.

But only then let the Public Accoun~ Commi~tee molke a report to this Assembly saying that the Minister of Transportation, l9i6,contravened any act of the law, only th~n. : ~ake exception to t.'le innuendo,which is alw•ys the role of th.e last: speaker, to cast this kind of innuendo on any individual in t.'le House, outside 2499

~cvemher 9, 1979 MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) MR. MORGAN: T<~.pe 994 the House, Order, ple..se! EC - 3 It is tot<llly wrong, Mr. SpeAker. So, Mr. SpeAker, in the future, when this House of Assembly appoints a committee, let not any individuU member of the House try to take the role of th<~.t toe...l committee. And the last speaker this morning tried to take the role of the total committee - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: - tried to take the place of that committee, He was drzwing his analysis and conclusions and making c:harges and accusations and innuendoes. But th.e reo1.l reason, Mr.

SpeAker, I know it, members of the Public Accounts Committee know it und I think all members of the House know it - t:he hen. gentleman is tot.ally upset because he was not given the opportunity by his own colleagues and his own side of t.."le House of Assembly to be appointed to the Public AccoWl.ts Committe~. That is the reason why, ~·!r. Speaker. :-m. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The hon. minist.er is again beginning to stray illld tile only power I have is to call t.."le members t.o order if they cio 2500

~:over-.ber g, 1979 Tape No. 995 stray and ask him to please be rele•.rant to t~e rr:otion at h<lr.C .,,hich, again, is to ar;paint a rr.e!':'.ber to a cor.nittee of t..".is House • The han. rin~ster. ;•.r. Spea.!::er, thar.k you for your r'l.:ling.

I tdll say again t.~at if we as ~erbers of the r;ouse are going to utilize and use ccmrnittees for at1y :;urrcse.- Select Corr.mittee:.>: ! a:;; looking at t."'le matter regarding a ne;.; flag for t.'lc Province - in t.l;is case, a cc::-:.;.it-:.ee of this P..ouse of Assenbly to scrutinize not only the Auditor General's rer-crt but all gcvern­ r2nt zpcndir.g of all depar~~ents, let's not any one of us attem?t to be better t.~an t.l;e six or seven members of this House who are going to do that ver; jab. Thank ~tOu, !lr. Speaker. ~'R. SPEA.v..ER: ~he hen. LeaCer of the Opposition. \!R. D. JAHIESOH: '-1r.

Speaker, I had net intenCcd to partici- pate nor ·Hill r to anv qreat extent, I think the matter raised by ':he mer..1::er for i:,aPoile, (~~r. s. ~ca:::

y) a:;d the b;:tsic questior, ·;;hich he raiseC, is er.tirelj lesitimat:e and reall:: i': is something tha': perhaps we ought to at some stage in t."'le proceedinqs of this House, examine, nar.ely, what does har::pen after the Public Accounts Committee reports. However 1 I want simply on this occasion to tell t:;.e hen. minister, ::mC. I ':ell hi!:'! categor:.call:,: ur.C: unequivocally that his allegation, speakir.g of innuendoes, wit.~ =egard to the ctjective, 3-S ~e puts it, of the ben. rr:errJ;ez:- for LaPoile with regard t::> t:.e cor.r:'.ittee is totallJ unt=ue! Totally and co~letely untrue!

I can assure t~e han. rr.errber that t.'i.ere ·,.;as no r<:.presentation lt',ade, that,in fact, we discussed it •,.;it!"lin caucus - indeed I think ! art'_ ::-easonable in r.1akinq ':.his stateMent ·,;i::.h regard to the r.:er..bez:- !:or Lewisporte (!•.r. ;.;~ite) - anC the decision '42S: ~ade · .. :ith re~ard t.o hir:t ber-ause he hi'J.d been on t.'l.e corr.mittee before, that he was, as the ~etrber for LaFoile has< said, an expe~ienced merrber of t.,e camit-::ee, and I d!scussed it. uith hif'l personally and that was t.'"l.e :)nC: and onl7 reason vhy ::hat no..:ina tion •...ras as it was. ;. .. :'l~ I thir.f: it !.s coui te irhl!;?ropriatc for soneene who has sr;ent a large an:n.mt of tirr.Q t.all:ing atoct ir:r.uendo to .;:roceed on ::.o a blatant a11d O;?en cor.rnent ·,rhich can '='nly l:c intcrrr<::!:teC as being an innuendo. ! do not raise this as a pa~nt of o::-Cer, I am par~ici?atinJ

November 9, 1979 t.m. D, Ji'l_"!!ESON: is simply not a t-¥Ue stat~~ent. :-m. SPEAKER {SI!-!MS): MR. W. YJ\RSfLUL: Tape No. 995 DW - 2 The hon, President of the Council, 1-!r. Speaker, just a few words. I too had not intended to get into the debate but there are a few things that require I think,comrnent frcm the government's point of view ani~Y· This is a motion to appoint a m~~er to the Public Accounts Comnittee. That me~~er 1 af course, must be an Opposition member and we are happy to join in the motion =or his appointment. I will just let it rest on that.

The House will pass it on the nomination of the Opposition and be glad to do it. Now1 there were a few T~estions that came out about the operation a£ the Public Accounts Committee and I do not think I can let the opportunity go without talking for just a few moments as to the function of tZ.,e cornmi ttee. First of all, the function a£ this comrni ttee is ne,,< to the Provi..."lce of !'Jewfoundland. wnen the hen. gentlemen there ofposite werP over on ~he ather side there was no Public Accounts Committee and : think this is something that should be borne in ~incl.

The ?ublic Accounts Committee was established when the rules of this House were initially reformed, at a ti."t'.e when 'tie assumed the of:fice of government-or the previous administration of this party assumed the office of gover~~ent. It has operated effectively since and I do not think that there has been - by and large it has operated very effectively.;ut. re;:;ardless of what went on in the past, 'Hhat ·..,.e are really concerned with as a :::rovernment is what goes on in the future.

And I want to assnre ·c.u~ r:ouse t:nat as far as the gover~~ent is concerned it remains ccmmitted to the proper and effective operation of the Public Accounts Committee, particularly in its role of sc~~tinizins the affairs of government and the actions of ministers and the action of the govern:nent i tsel5'. ;,;;e have absolutely nothing to be afraid of and we certainly welcome this particular c~~itr.ee.

I would suggest though that remarks of the tenor that were r:1ade by the hen. the member :=or La?oile "-'hen he '-Has speaking -.:cry l.ndica"C:tve of a •,.;ay in which ':he ?'.lblic Accounts Corr.mittee can i::sel£ beccme ineffective. And, although perhaps T should no~ enter into this, I can say that if that is the attitude of

Nove.."llber 9, 1979 Tape No. 995 DW - 3 ~-· W. H.;RSHALL: the hon. me..'llber for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) I support the nomination of the member for tewisporte {Mr.Nhite) much more heartily tr~n I would support the nomination of the hen. me~er for LaPoile {.,.M.r. Neary) had he been the person that was named. Now1 what does r.appen wit!'! respect co this ccnttnittee? rhe hon. the Leader of the Opposition asks what happens to this committee when the report is made, what is the purpose of it. The purpose of it is quite obvious; 2503

Novemcer 9, 1979 Tape No. 996 SD - l as I say, is to examine the role and the functioning of ~overnment. When something happens which ought not to happen, as does occur from cime to time, ~ recort is made and the report is fil~J in this House and the report is made public ,and the government is subject, then, to public condesr~tion or other~ise.~ich is one of the basic ways in which ~,e gcverr~ent answers to the electorate and the people of this ?rov~,ce.

The Public Acccunts Ccrrmittee and the report of the Public Accounts Committee has been handled in ~,e same way as it is handled in other Legislatures and,indeed,~,e Parliament of canada. A."l.d anyt:.hing we can do to strengthen its function and strengthen its effectiveness we certainly will do and -..;e ·.,.ill do it gladly. But I have to end, ! ~,ink, on this note 1 vis~a-vis ~,e remarks made by t.~e hon. member for LaPoile (Hr. S.

Neary) 1 to this end and just suggest to :Um t.he Public Accounts committee, you know, is there for the purpose of seeking au~ the tru~~ and information and ~ot ~o te used as a lever far accusations and innuendo a;air~t people. ':'hat is ~,e reason, ~'le sole and entire reason why the Public Accounts Committee at one period of time appeared to break do·,..n. 'l'he han. the member for LaPoile, indeed ~".e hon. members opposite, i£ t.. ... ey have not learnec anyt...'"ting £:rom the last -ali!C'Cian, it should be very clearly ·,..ritten in ~'teir hearts and in :.:teir ninds t.'tat. che people of Newioundland do not appreciate mud slinging, do not appreciate accusations and they vdll continue to take what is now becoming their accustomed place on the other side of Your Honour, on t.'le present siC.e of Your Honour, if they continue in that vein. >1R.

SPEAKE.?.: Oraer, please~ The han. ?res~dent of ~'le Council,being the mover of ~~e original motion,has closed ~'te Cebate. Is it ~'le pleasure of t.'le House then t:tat the said :notion be adopted? Those in favour 1 Aye' contrary ·~ay', carri~d. ".<le are still untie::: Notices of :O!otion believe.

~1ove:nber 9, 1979 Tape No. 996 SD - 2 ORDERS OF THl=' DAY :-lotion l. Motion, t.he hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environtnent. to introduce a bill, "An Act To Protect The Environment Of The Province Ey Providing For ~nvironmental Assessment," (Bill No. 59), carried. On motion, Bill No, 59, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, ~~e hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend, Revise And Consolidate The Law Relating To The Establishment And Administration Of Municipal Government In The Province 1 " {Bill ::o. 58), carried.

On motion, Bill No. 58 read a first time, ordered read a secor~ time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. th.e :1inister of Finance to introduce a bill, ".~"1. Act To Amend The Gasoline '!'ax Act, 1978 (No.2)" 1 (Bill No. 63) 1 carried. On motion, Bill No. 63 read a fizst t~~e, ordered read a second tL~e an tomorrow. :10tion, ~he hon. t:..•vz :1inister of Labour and .:-tanpower to introduce a bill, "An Act To A.mend The Cc::upation<ll Healt:.h And Safety Act 1 " (3ill :.Jo. 52), carried. On motion, Sill No. 52, read a first ti::;e,orde::ed read a second time on ':cr..orrow. ~05

November 9,1979 Tape No. 997 AH-1 Motion ,the hon. the Hinister of Tourism to introduce a bill, "An Act For The Establishment Cf ;. Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council," carried. (Bill No. 56) On motion, Bill Ho. 56 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion , the hen. the Minister of Health to introduce a bill, ":in Act Respecting The Newfoundland Optometric Association And Governing The Practice Of Optometry In The Province," carried. (Bill No.57) On motion, Bill No. 57 read a first time,ordered read a second time on tcmorrow.

Motion , ~~e hen. the ~inister of Healt.~ to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting Denturists," carried. {Bill No. 40) On moticn,Bill No. 40 read a :'irst time, orCered read a second on tomorrO'!,o.'. Motion ,the hen. the Minister of Health to L'ltroduce a bill, "An Act To Amend 'Ole Medical Act, 1974," carried. (Bill No. 54) On motion, Bill No. 54 read a first time, ordered read a second on tc~orrow.

Motion the hen. the Minister of Education to introduce a bill, "An ,'\ct '!'o Ar,,end The ~1emorial University (Pensions) f>.ct," carried, (Bill So. 53) On motion , Bill No. 53 read a first time, orC.ered read a second ti:r,e on tomorrow. Motion the hen. the ~inister Of ?ducation to introduce a !Jill, "An Act To A.'nend The :-iernorial University Act," carried. (Bill Ho. 61) On motion, Sill :-to. 51 read a first tir.-e; ordered :-ead a second tirne on tomorrow. 2506

~ovember 9,1979 Tape No. 997 AH-2 Motion , the hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Jl.ct To Change The ~~arne Of The Constabulary Force Of Newfoundland To The Royal newfoundland Constabulary 1 " carried. (Bill No. 51) On motion,Bill No. 51 read a first time, ordered read a second time en tomorrow.

Motion be hen. the :Unis"ter Of Mines And Enerqy to introduce a bill, "An Act To Repeal '!"he Government­ Atlantic GYJ?surn, Linlited- Lundrigans Li:t'<ited (Agreetr'.ent) Act, 1969,'' carried. (Bill ~1o, 55) On motion, Bill No. 55 reaC a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow, Motion , the hen. the :<~inister of :'isheries, (Acting,) to introduce a bill, "1m AM- .,.,,... '"·mend The Fisheries Loan Act," carried. (Bill ~io, 60) On rocticn, Bill No. 60 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. :-tR. SPEP..KER: (Simms) Order 11. Continuing debate.

Second reading of a bill, ''An Act To Reform ':'he Law ?~specting The Property Of MarrieC Persons." (Bill No. 1) The hon. ~,e ~inis~er of Education. MS.VE?GE: ~r. Speaker, I would like to continue ~~e remarks which ! began yesterday in strong support of this bill,

an act to reform the law dealing wit.'-1 matrirr.onial prop:rty. It is my strong conviction that this ~ill constitutes a long overdue reform which will greatly benefit the families of cur Province. 2507

November 9, 1979 Tape No. 998 NM - l !15 VERGE: The law is relevant to and important for three stages of any marriage; first and foremost, for an ongoing more or less happy marriage, secondly, upon termination of a marriage through death of one's spouse; and third, upon termination of a marriage through separation or divorce, and I think we have to recognize its importance for the first two stages of a ~4rriage which are considerably the ~est important for the majority of married couples in our Province. Something that we also have to acknowledge is ~~at we 3ave now, at this moment, matri~~nial property law.

There was matrimonial property law when our parents were married and when our grandparents were married. This was a law which evolved in England from feudal times over the centuries to the nineteen~~ century. It was developed in a commercial context without any regard to the needs of the family in an era when indeed married '<~omen were treated like inf~~ts ar.d lunatics as being in law incapable of even owning property let alone sharing and managing it or disposing of it.

In the 1880's in S:ngland and then later in Newfoundland 1 legislation was passed given married '<~cmen, for the first tirne the right:, t.o own property. That !.s 'Nhere the progression of the law ended in Newfoundland until now. ::n England, however, there was reform fifteen or twenty years ago moderni=ing matrimonial property law and now, at long last, this is being achieved i~ our own Province.

This law which has existed for so many years provides basically that 9roperty is mine if I paid for it with my own money. '!'here are a couple of exceptions 'Nhen there is a written title dcc~ent sayi~g that the property is owned by not only the person ·,.;ho paid =:or it but also t.he spouse, such as :nay hapf'H~n ·Nith a deed of conveyanl'e :or a :natrimonial home wh.!.ch is registered in the t.WO names. !his, however, is the exception =ather than the rule.

In Newfou.'1dlar.d, until che past ~'"n years or so, t.he ;;ractice followed by la"w-Jers and Justices af t.he P12ace in preparing deeds and !Jills of sale. 'Nas to simply specify t.he husband's 2508

Nov~~er 9, 1979 Tape No. 998 NH - 2 MS VERGE: name, nobody ever gave any consideration to putting the document in both the husband and wife's name. It was not a matter of discrimination, it was simply a tradition and lawyers being tradition and precedent bound simply followed this practice without giving it any thought. There can be another exception to the - 'it is mine if I paid for it wi~~ my own money rule' where the courts could find a trust, a complicated legal device.

So that,now,for us, for our parents and our grandparents, when they were married and until now, whether we knew it or not1 we were bound by a system of matrimonial property law which was not at all suited to the needs of the family.

And I would submit t~at this present law which is about to be reformed runs counter to the expectations and the desire of the vast majority of ~ewfaundland couples who,an taking their marriage vows in a Christian marriage ceremony, have the expectations and t.he intentions that t.hey ·were embarking upon a union of sharing based on mutual trust and generosity, and not a union where ownership of property was determined by technical commercial rules of property law where there was a tracing of who paid for which asset with whose money.

As I mentioned yesterday, over the course of the past several years in my law practice in Corner Brook and in my '#Ork with women's groups, I had :':irst-hand knowledge of many injustices ~hich resulted 2509

November 9, 1979 Tape 999 EC - 1 HS VERGE: from the application oftllis present hw which is about to be reformed. lnequities existed in ongoing happy marriages. I mentioned a case yesterday where a married couple after many years of marriage, encountered difficul.ties. The husbiind had a drl...nking problem which led to financial difficulties. To alleviate those difficulties he put a mngage on the family home where he and his wife and children had resided for many years. This was done without the signature of the wife and, indeed, wi~~out even her knowledge or her consent.

The first that she knew .lbout the mortgage was a year later, after the husband had defaulted in the mortgage payments, when one day she had to leave her sickbed to go to answer the door, to discover the finance company employee threatening to foreclose on a mor-tgage which she had not previously even known about. This was a marriage where there was never any thought given to separation or divorce and where the wife coped with a bad situation in the best way t.~at she knew how, to try to be kind and loving to her husband and to provide as best she could for her children.

She ended up having to borrow money from her mother to pay off ~,e mortgage. Injustices also have resulted in cases where a spouse has died, sometimes without a Will - in many cases 1 without a Will when the provisions of the Intestate Succession Act came into play saying that property of the deceased spouse ~as to be distributed among the surviving spouse and children.

Often tb.is causes hardship for the surviving spouse, who, in order to get title to t.~e matrimonial home and other proper'ty transferred to her, has to get th.e written consent of t..'le children, which is often cumbersome where children are scattered around the world 1 and has to go through an expensive legal procedure.

There are ot.'ler cases where deceased spouses have Wills sometimes not m.king adequate provision for t.,e surviving spouse. '<4e all know about cases where a man dies wi til a iiill, leaving t.~e matrimonial home to one of the children who is not prepared to look out to t.~e best interest of his or her mct..,er and who proceeds 2510

November 9, 1979 Tape 999 EC - 2 MS VERGE: to sell the house out from under the mother, the :oother having helped maintain and clean that very home for thirty, forty or fifty years of married life. Suddenly, in her old age, she is forced to leave ~~is home which she always regarded during the course of the marriage as just as much her home a.s her husband's home. There are other cases, again, whic..'l we all know about where a husband dies with A will, leaving the house and other property to a third party outside members of the f.am.i.ly.

A husband might leave his house, for example, to his girlfriend rather than his wife, and at the moment there is nothing that wife can do about it other than perhaps a.pply to the court for mV.ntenance out of the estate funds. MR. THOMS• varied. MS V"ERGE: She could also apply to have the Will She can apply to have the Will varied to get maintenance for herself, but there is no provision under ~~e existing Family Relief Act for her to get a share of the property, other than on the basis of a monetary payment for her maintenance.

The third circumstance where injustices have occurred - and this is the one that has received the ll'ICISt publicity - is when a marriage breaks up through separation or death.

We all know about cases which went to court in Western Canada - ~ese are the high profile cases that the media devoted a. lot of coverage to, pri.marily and notably ~~e Murdoch case involving the Alberta f.rm wife who worked for lt'WlY years wit.~ her husband side by side on the farm in iUherta making it ;1. successful and viable business, Because .she could not est.Olish to tb.e satisfaction of the majorit'"f of the Supreme Court of Canada that she had :nade a financial contribution to the acquisition of that farm business, despite the fact ~~at it was clearly established that she had Cevoted many years of hard work and labour, the court ruled ~'lat ~Sll

November 9 1 1979 Tape ~10. 1000 DW - l !-'.S • L • \tERGE : she had no ownership interest whatsoever in that property. This case became a rallying cry for reform in this area of the law. Something that we overlooked though is that there had been cases which went to our o~~ Supreme Court of ~ewfcundland which pointed out just as great injustices. Back in 1975 there was a case involving a couple who lived in Port de Grave, Conception Bay,which was ruled on by~~. Justice Mifflin of our Newfoundland Supreme Court.

That was a case where the husband applied to the court for a declaration that he was the owner and r~d an ~~elusive right to possession of the =~~ily house. The couple in question had been married for thirty years, they had married in the 1940's, they had lived together for twenty-five years, they had ten children, Mr.

Justice Mifflin found, as a matter of fact,that the wife had been an excellent homemaker, During the early years of their marriage land was purchased on which the home was built, the bill of sale for the land, as is typical,was put in the husband's name alone, then a house was constructed 'Nith the labour of not only the husband but also the wife, Again, the trial judge found, as a matter of fact 1 that the wife had physically helped construct the house.

However, during the course of the marriage, during the twenty-five years that the couple were together the wife devoted her full time to household management, including housework and management of the husband's paycheck and care of the couple's ten children. She did !'lOt ·,;ork outside the heme and she did not receive any independent income. The only income received was that of the husband 1 therefore,the only money which was ?Ut into the purchase of the land and the building materials was that earned by the husband.

Bec~use of this pa~tern of income earning and cavrnent for the heme, the court ruled that there the wife had no interest in the heme and therefore the hus~and's claim for exclusive possession succeeded. The result ·1·:culd have been that the wife and pres~~bly the children who are left under her care, after thirty years o£ :r.n.rriage, after having made an excellent contribution as a hcmernaker,.w"Culd have been put out on t:he street. Another case '4bich went to our supre!ne Court, and •,.;hich received !airly •,.;idespreaC publicity in the St. John's area involved a :::.::uple who lived in st.

John's and wl',ose cir-::u."'Tist:ances were slightly di!ferent. 2512

NoVe.."t'ber 9, 1979 Tape ~-;o. 1000 ow - 2 $. L. VERGE: In their case in the early years of the ~arriage when the tr~trimonial home was purchased, the wife worked outside the home for pay. She continued to do this until her first pregnancy. However, agair. the deed of conveyance for the home was put in the husband's narr.e alene , and in that case the judge , ... as unable to find that the wife's income or any part of it was used to ~ake a downpayment on the house or to ~ake the mortgage payments.

Uer income had merely been used to purchase groceries and clothing, therefore, because of this technicality, again, the court r~d to rule tr~t this wife had no interest in the matrimonial home. And ~n the reasons for judgement in that case Yx. Justice ~oel Goodridge of our Supreme Court made some comments on the matrimonial property law and I quote,.~Mr.

Justice Goodridge said it all underlines the need !or legislation to impower a court to create proprietary interest in one's spouse, in property •Jested in the :;arne of the other in appropriate cirCU.'llstar:ces. _ Few married couples enduring the first warmth of their marriage foresee the darker days ahead for some of them when unhappy differences will divide them but not their :natri.'nonial wealth. The wife in most cases sacrifices her income value on the labour market but will provide econcmic value to the husband even if it consists only of housekeeping.

In other cases, she will work and contribute her ear:;ings to the marriage unless she can establish a trust, a difficult 2513

November 9, 1979 Tape No. 1001 NM - 1 :15 VERGE: out at the end of the marriage wiser, perhaps, but penniless." And he concluded by saying that the present state of the law requires th.at a judge reject what may be in any ordinary sense of justic~ a fair claim for relief. And there have been many oL~er cases in this Province which never went to court. Many of these cases came to my personal attention, one of them through a letter which ! received last Fall and with L~e permission of the woman who wrote me I will quote from some of that letter.

The woman wrote to me, "I heard that you .,.,.ere an the Status of 'Women Council. ! have left my husband after ~~irty-three years of marriage. He says I do not own anything t.here. He has fifty-five acres of land and a lovely home. 1 helped put every nail in it, not money but labour. I left because he was not creating me right. Three months before I left him he drove me out of his !Jed and was going cut at night until one, two and three o'clock. He would not ~aka me back so I would have a :.ouse to rear up my t:,.;el ve year old daughter in. The welfare got me a two bedroom house bu~ it is not furnished.

P.e gave me one bed, an old ~/ belonging to my brother and my broken washer and says that is all I get from him. He pays $100 support for the daughter. I have six children, four of them are marr:!.ed. I wish that law would get ?assed ::or Newfoundh.nd. Do you think it will be passed before coo long?'' which I received about this time last year. This is a letter The Opposi~ion members, particularly the han. member far Grand 3ank (Hr. L. Thorns), raised some technical points suggesting L~at there may be some shortcomings in the bill and I '.Vould like to go c:,.rough those points one by one.

I might say at the outset tJ1at I :ccga::::i ~is points as somewhat obscure and I was puzzled by his ment~oning at least scme oi them. the :JppasitJ..On, suggested that th::!.s refor.:n r:1ay in scme ,.vay sanction or encourage people to li·Je ':oget~er !.n 'nhat:: is usually ;:alled a ccrr:rr:on :<!514

November 9, 1979 Tape No. 1001 NH - 2 MS VERGE: law relationship. This in ~o way will achieve ~~at ~esult. In fact,now,a couple living together in a common law relationship, or business par~~ers, or a brother and s~ster, or any other pair of people may order their property rights anyway they please by going to a lawyer and syste~~tically having ~itle put in both of their names. So this law is not going c~ change the end result which may be achieved by a couple living common law. it 'Hill simply perhaps make it a little neater and tidier for them to do this. A second point 'Hhich he made deals with the definition of matrimonial home in

section 4 of the act. He suggested that there might possibly be a loophole because the definition would only cover homes which were occupied by both spouses on the date ~he act cernes into force. But I would point cut ~hat seC'tion 5 (

c) of the act states clearly that the act applies not~ithstanding that the matrinonial home was acquired before ~~is act comes into force. ?oint three 'Nas the question of the act nat covering ?roperty acquired after separation. Prevision -::an be made ::or spouses regarding circ'.lmstances that develo9 after separation through the existing provisions dealing with :naintenance under The !-laint.enance Act of the ?:::evince, or the Di',rorce Act. A fourtb point he mentioned about

section 42 dealing with wills. That

section I would $imply submit states t.'lat an agreemem: under the act may be enforceable notwiths1:anding that it does not comply with the tecimical .::equ.:.rement:s for witnessing and so en of u~e Wills Ac~. .;nd a final point which he made related to .sect~on 36 ·nhich st;;J.tes that minors may cnly have a nar:::iage ::ontrac::: wit:."'l -::our~ :1pproval. The age of majorir.y in our Province now is ninet:een, not t·t~en::y-one as it '.lsed t:o be and which the hen. :r,err.ber fer Cirar.d 3a;l.k {!·tr. T!i.oms) 3Uggest:ed it sdll 1.s, .~lso t~e age =:or :na::.::iage I :iid not ;;w;gest :::he age ·nas twenty-one. 2515

November 9, 1979 Tape No. 1001 NM - J MS VERGE: Okay. Also the Sole~lizatian of t1arriage Act says that a couple have to be sixteen years of age t:.o get a marriage licence without parental consent and I would submit for any couple unde~ the age of nineteen in 2516

Nove!T'.ber 9 1 1979 Tape No. 1002 MS VEP.GE: this Province who get married, who might want to have a marriage contract, ~~at it is in their best interest and in the general good for them to have to go before cou~ to get approval for a marriage contract. Final!~ I would like to take issue with suggestion by opposition me[l'l.bers that t..'"lis be delayed fer another week or a few days for some lawyers to have more imput.In rny experience there has never been a reform measure which has gotten more discussion, debate, report and l~tter writing in ~~e histort of the Province.

It stems from the late 1960's when Gushue and Day, David Day, one of the lawyers mentioned by the hon. member from Grand Bank (Mr.Thoms), produced their report on family law in which they recommended this kind of reform. In the Throne Speech of the Winter of 1977, government announced its intention to do this. Ads were placed in newspapers throughout the Province by the former Justice Minister inviting public ir.put from January of 1979 through the end of March last year. Last Summer of 1978, a questionnaire was circulated at random to people throughout t.;e Province to assess !)ublic opinion.

Last December of 1978 ~~e Throne Speech reaffirmed government's intention to introduce this bill. In May of 1979 1 a predecessor bill 1 substantially the same as t.~is en~ was introduced and debated in t.;is House of Assew~ly and received widespread publicity. In June of this year there was a discussion, a panel discussion at the Law Society annual ~r.eeting in Corner. ! was one of ~~e panel me~~ers and at t.~at time sc~e of the lawyers present were asking for trore tirr.e.

They had had four and one half mon~~s and ! .,.auld submit that if the ordinary citizens cf t.~is Province could sutmit their corur,ent and input on this bill 1 surely the members of t.;e legal profession have had ~ore than ample opportunity and t.~ey had been specifically rer:uested. There is nothing to be gained by delaying t."'lis irr.por"t.ant reform legislation another day. To concluC!e I would like to say t~at ! regarC tr,is act as one of t~e ~est sigr.ificant pieces of ~eform legislation in the history of the Province. I think it will 2517

!'lovember 9, 1979 Tape No. 1002 AH-2 MS VE?GE: bring in line a body of law to meet the expectations and needs of the vast majority of families of our Province. SOME EOU, MEMBEP.S : MR. SPEAKER: {Butt) MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear! The hen. me~~er for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, I wish to have a few words on Bill ~io. L ".;n Act To Reform The Law Respecting The Property of Married Persons." And I want to first of all congratulate my colleague, the member for Grand Eank {Mr.Thoos) on tne magnificant presentation th.at he made yesterday in this debate.

My bon. coEeague told t.'"1e House that ...,.e here in the Opposition agreed with the principle of this bill. At least that is what I understood from the ::on. gentleman, that we had caucused and t.."le hen, gentleman •.,:ho ~s the spokesman for Justice matters in the House told ~~e ~ouse that we approved of the principle. And then the hon. gentleman went on to point out some of the weaknesses in t..I-J.e bill,which is his duty, ~r. Speaker, to show the House the weaknesses. If they are valid t..~en t..~cse weaknesses should te rectified.

There were one or two other people 'dho participated in t..~is debate includi-:'lg the Minister of Education (~s Verge) who just took her seat. And I would have to say t..~is about the hen. lady, Mr.

Speaker, tha~ probatly t..~is bill would not be before the House today, despite the Premier trying to eli~ aboard the hen. madam's bandwagon and the Government House Leader trying to leave the irnpressicn ~hat he is the master ~ind behincl this bill 1 I believe the real fcrce be::ind this particular legislat:.ion is the :.l:inister of Education {HsVergc). ,\s a !t'.atter of fact, I had an opportunity refore the hon. minister bec~~e engaged in public life or political life - not public life because ~he hon. minister was very ac't.ive in public life, the Status of Wcr.1en, long before she got in politics, and I had the opport~~ity and the privilege to sit down across the table, do~~ i~ the Cpposition office and assure 2518

November 9 1 1979 Tape 1003 EC - l MR. NEARY: the hon. mini..ster and her colleagues that the Opposition would go along with any legislation that was worthwhile in the interests of furthering the rights of vomen in this Province. I think the hon. minister confirmed that yesterday. But then the hen. minister, .after saying th&t she more or less ~proved. of the Opposition•s endorsement of this kind of legislation, went on to say that: after listening to the debates of members on this side of the i'Iouse, that th.e hon. minister was having grave doubts.

Well, I want to reiterate what I sUd as the spokesxun at that time, that illlY legislation that is in the intere:st of furthering women • s rights in this Province 1 the Opposition are for it, as my colleague stated yesterday, without reservations. And because we Stillld in our places in this hon. House and point out: weaknesses in legislation or show the government where they can improve legislation, or show the government: what action should be taken after the legislation is passed, it does not mean that we are aga.inst t..i.e principle of any bill.

And if I had to vote solely on the information that was given us by the hon. minister this morning before ahe took her aeat -if the hen. minister was trying to convert the House, t..."""fing to persuade members of the House to vote for this particular bill, then wi~~ all due respect, the hon. minis~er did not do a vecy good joh this morning, except tell the House a few horror stories. That is not the reason for bringing in ~~is bill, Mr. Speaker, that is Motherllood.. We could all stand in our places in this hon. House and tell hair-raising stories, that would not be any problem at all.

I was Minister of Social Services for three and one-half years in this Province, and I guarantee you, I could tell a few hair-raising stories during my time in the political life of t.his Province. 1 will be starting M'f eighteent.h year t.b.is month as a member of the House of Asseir.bly, There are quite a few st:ories I could tell. So if the hen. minister was trying to persuade us this morning to vote for this bil!. and that was all the arguments that we had, the only arguments the minister put forward, then I am a!raid t..'"lat the bill ~19

November 9, 1979 Tape 1003 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: would have a. rough passage, _because that is not the kind of argument that would persuade me or I doubt if it would persuade my colleagues to jump for joy for this particular bill. rne bill, Mr. Speaker, as hon. members are aware and alluded to, but only very mildly, is, r suppose, one of the most significant pieces of legislation ever to come before a Legislature in Canada, let alone Newfoundland. It is a major piece of legislation, it is a major reform, it is a bill that is going to affect the lives of every married person in Newfoundland. MR.

WARREN: And those not married. MR. NEARY: And those not turried. It is going to affect the future of my chl.ldren and your children and chl.ldren who are not born. It is, Mr. Speaker, the most significant piece of legislation ever brought before the Legislature of this Province. That is what we are deallng \oiith, and we may as well face it. It is going to affect the life of practically every Newfoundlander and every Labradorian. MR. THOMS: And that is what the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) wants us to put through in a (inaudible). MR. NEARY: Yes, that is right. Hy hon. friend is absolutely right.

I was coming to that. But I want to go back to the minister again - \oiith all due respect, the ministe~ in telling us these horror stories, Mr. Speaker, was not very convincing, not very persuasive on why we should vote for ~~is bill. Because the minister, really, in ~elling these stories, is admitting failure, is admitting defeat, is admitting a very serious weakness in our society - that is what. t.'le minister is doing. If we were going ~o correct ~~e situations ~~t the minister referred tc in quoting t.'le judges of the court, if th.e minister ...,as going to do that, Mr.

Speaker, if we were going to correct that kind of situation, we ...,auld no~ need a piece of legislation that affects t.~e life of everj Newfoundlander, we could bring in a piece of legislation t.o deal e:xclusi vel v with t.I-J.e ki..'"lCs of situations the minister described t.'lis morning. But this 2520

sove~ber 9, 1979 Tape No. 1004 DH - 1 piece of legislation af:!:ects every ·man and wor..an, every r:1arried rr:ar. and wor.:an in the Province. .:md I •;.~as hoping that tJ;e minister in her remar.~s would tell us why it ;.;as necessary to brin? in a :::1anket piece of legislation affecting every married man and •,,roman just to correct the situations that developed ~~at ~~e minister described ~~is ~rning. So, ~. Speaker, let us first of all accept ~,e fact that ~,is leq~slat~an is r.~re important and r.~re significant than han. me~bers have indicated so far in their speeches.

I have to describe it myself as probably ~,e most significant, the most far-reaching piece of legislation ever to be brought before a Legislature in this country, bar none. Now that may sound like a mou~~ful but it is true! And my han. friend ask, ~,ere=ore =ar a few days. The han. gentleman did not say, 'We want a Select Committee.' The ~on. gentleman said, 'Take a few days, let the reaction set in.' And '•'C have no indication, ~r. Speaker, so far, a;:::art frot'l the St.:..tus of Ho~.en and one or t· .. :o other gro\.~PS, we have no indication that adequate representation was made in connection wi~~ ~~is bill.

I understand that the canad~an Bar represcntati•Je in Newfou.-J.dland has now made represe::.tation, has now :r1ade !t this verJ day in connection with ~~is bill. That is something ~,at should Ce looked at.

I presume the representative of the Canadian Ear Association is no slouch I C.o not i<now who the gentleman is but I ·woulC assume ~'l.at any input that the representative of t:.'l.e Canadian Bar Association r:d,qht have in connection with thi3 ~ill should certainly be looked at by t:.'l.e a~~inistration. r ~Duld t.~ink that .:~.ny input t.'l.at ~'l.e churches ;.,iqht like to ha·;e on this !::ill shedd :Ce looked at. !::ut anytady, -..·hether it be an i."'ldiviCual, whet::er it be ar: ort;ani=a"t.ion or a grout: or a c!:ur::h or a 3ociety, I feel tr.at they should he give:1 a fe-d Cays to have so~e i."'lput in this Cill if ~~ey so desire, and i£ th~y Co not ~esire, •Nell and :;cod.

But they sl:ould be given the O!;?por;:u.o;i't.y, beca~se, 2521.

Nave:nber 8, 1979 Tape No. 1004 !B-2 !-!R. NEARY: very lightly, very briefly, said, 'Well. after the bill goes through, before July lot of next year, when it beco~es the law of this land, we are going to have an educational programme.' Well, that is well and good but what kind of an educational progra~e are we going to have? Mr.

Speaker, r would like to have the governm~~t elaborate on the kind of an educational programme they are going to conduct to make the people of this Province aware that the govern."llent is now stepping into their daily lives, that we are now going to r.ave a bill of all bills that is going to regiment and run the lives of people in this Province-not that there is anything against it, I wonder if it is necessary. The ?rime Minister of Canada once said that the goverr~ent should not step into the bedrooms of the nation.

This crowd here are quite prepared to step into the lives of every married couple in this Province without giving a few days g:race,as my hen. friend says, ~o find out if the bill can be improved, if it needs amendment, if it needs cha~ges. 2522

November 9, 1979 Tape No. 1005 NM - 1 :.m,. NEARY: Does that mean we are against the bill? ~o, Mr. Speaker, Hy hen. friend said we are for the principle of this bill and the government can t·.dst and turn and play politics all they want. Nhat I am concerned about, 3ir, if have any concern,and ! am just as broad- minded as anybody in this hon.

House and I am all for reforms just as much as anybody else, but what I am concerned about, Sir, is the fact that outside of those who are directly involved, outside of those who have seen the pitfalls, 'dho have seen t:.he horror stories, who know about this case or ~~at case, apart from that group, ~~e average Newfoundlander, the ordinary Newfoundlander whose life will be affected by thin bill, will not become conscious or aware of the implications of this bill 3ntil several years from now. Maybe some ~£ ~hem ~ay never become aware of it. .~d ~~at is what I am concerned about.

I am all for t:he ~ill, all for it as long as Newfoundlanders understand what it is the government is doing. The government say they are going to carry on an educational programme. ~ill that just be in the urban centres? Will they be able ~o reach out to ~ral Newfoundland? Will th~y be able to get into Grand Bruit and Petites and LaPoile and Grey River and Bay d'Sspoir and into Southern Labrador?

W~at kind of an education prcgra.'T'Jt'.e? ~ill th£ly be able to reac~1 all these people or will these people l1ave to wait unt:.il a crisis develops in the family as a result of ~~e bill before they cc~e conscious that ~,e law of this Province governs what happens to their property and :::o t.'teir heme? W1lat a shocker it is goi:Jg to be, ~r.

Speaker, :or the ordi:1ary New:oundlander in rural iiewfoundlanC- a.:1d I know that this could be twisted and interpreted but r have to say it because it is a :'act:. and when you state :act:.s in this House then :tou should not: be cri tici;:ed or condemned :'or it; everybody has their opinion and their right and their pcsition have a :'ee.!.ing r:~yself that the a!.'"dinary person, the average person i:l rural )1e•;.;rfcundland ,·,.hen he

November 9, 1979 Tape :io. 1005 NM - 2 :-m..

NEA.l:l..Y: wakes up some morning or she wakes up some morning and discovers that the old man decided he was going to leave his property, hi::., heme, to his favourite san or favourite daughter, did ~ot know a thing about this piece of legislation, ~h~ educational prograrmne that we heard about did not reach him1 then all of a sudden some o~~er sen or daughter comes along and says, "Hold en new~ The old man might have meant well - he is qone now he is not here to defend himself - but he did not own that, he only owned fifty pe!: cent of that home, What about the other fifty per cent?" tihat about it?

Is that to be sneezed at or laughed at? I am all for a victory for the Status of Women. I am also fo= fai!:'ness to the ordinary ~~ewfoundlander. The tradition in Ciew-:cundland 1 ·,.;hether- and I am not a male chauvinist, ! de not ~now why I have to keep apologizing. But apparently if you get up and you try to talk a little common sense in this House somebody •..;ill get up and t•,.;ist it or turn it to say, "Ch,you a!:'e against women, you are against 1:hat." I am not against it. I am merely pointing out the pitfalls and the weaknesses. But ~ would say t!:adicionally, my hen. friend from St.

John's East (Mr. ~arshall) is a rr.aster at t.~at, a master at it, at t."'e smea.:: tactic. It will catch up with him eventually. It will catch up with him. But, Mr.

Speaker, I would think myself, and I could be wrong, pe1:haps the people who are listening to me ::auld say, "No,boy,you are all wrong." But r believe, Si.:;, that :::.he tradition ir'> ~ewfoundland, now ;.;hether it be right or wrong is :>.ot for me to say and r- am not:. passing judgement on it, ! wane that understooci 1 but I believe the tradition is that ':he ·,..roma.'l. has tZ'le attituC.e <:hat the ski;:per, ~he man, <:he :isher.nan, the logger, she has t..'te attitude 1 tiell boy, he looks af~er t..~ings.

Maybe my han. friend will say c~ey are ceo easy going, c...'1e wome:1; naybe t:hey are. 3ut I a!n only stating :1 :act 1 2524

~loveno.ber 9, 1979 Tape No. 1006 SD - 1 MR. S. NEARY: what t:.he tradition is in this Province. aaybe it needs to change but 1 t is there, that the woman says, "Well, the skipper is in charge, boy , 11 :-:e .,..ants a few repairs done t.o the roof, t."le skipper does it. He is in charge, he owns it, he is ~'le master of his home and he can do what he likes wi~~ it. That is a fact- unless I am crazy, unless I am completely stupid, I have gone all over ~,is Province, I ~~ink I ~~w Newfoundlanders and r..abradoriar.s fairly well, and 1 would think, :-tr.

Speaker, unless t.hat educational programme is going to be better then what we have seen in the past of educational progra~mes, can reach out to every family, every home in Newfoundland, unless it can do that, Sir 1 cb.en t..'le ordinary person is rural Uewfour.d.land ,and in urban Newfoundland in a good many cases, outside t:he group t.'lat I am talking about 1 are going to get an awful shock, a terrific shock. I would say that most members of t.his House will voce for t."le legislation, agree with. t.."le principle of it, because to say ocherwise, to do o~~erwise will be like voting agains~ motherhood.

You ·~uld be accused of being against women. MR. AARSHALL: Is t:he mem.ber for !..a.Poile championing the cause of t.~e Law Socie~y? :-l.R. S. N'EARY: :io, I am r..ot char:'.pioning the case of t.~e Law SociBty, ! am championing my own cause. ! do not need to champion anybody 1 s cause in this House, I am suite capable of taking care of :nyself and looking after myself, ! listen to ever,t"body. I listen, I have a very, 'Jerf sensitive ear. I listen, liscen, listen. Apart: from bel.ng able to talk 1 I also listen. That is somet..~.ing t.'1.e hon. gentleman never learned.

The hen. gentleman talks but does not. listen. ~!R. E. ?..OEERTS: :·tR. S. NEARY: (Inaudible) That is not worth list::ening co. It is no ~rouble t.o know, :tr. speaker, t.~at t.'1.e Premier is r..ot in his seat or the han. gentleman •.;auld have to be reprimanded in caucus fer t."la~ kind of a st.a.t.e!':'ler.t, 2525

November 9, 1979 Tape No, 1006 so - 2 :1R. S, NEARY: There are a few embarrassments on the o~~er side to the born again Premier, One of tham is the hen. gentl~~an, ~~e member for Sonavista - the minister ! was talking about this morning - and ~~e member for St. John's East Extern (Hr. T. Hickey) and they will be dealt with in due course. (Inaudible) I beg your pardon. (Inaudible) A.~ HON , :-!E!,fBER t :tR. S • NEA.l:t% AN HOH. HE:.mER: !1R, S. NEARY: The minister thought I was talking about and you know what thought did.

So, Mr. speaker, I would hope tha~ the government would give us some indication of what kind of an education programme they are talking about, Are they going to send somebody around the Province with slides, with a film? Are they going to buy television time? Are ~,ey going to write a letter to evert household in Newfoundland? ~hat kind of an education programme? Do not just brush over it very lightly when we are talking about scme~~ing tnat is going to affect ~,e daily lives of just about every Newfour.dlar.der. ar.d. my hen. friend says take a few days.

I think it would be very worthwhile Oo take a few days, ~ake a few days before third reading, in between second and tr~rd reading. That means, in case anybody is concern=d, ~,a~ it is going to go through the House, ~~e bill is going to ;o ~~rough as is, amended or other~ise. It is goir.g to go through the House.

Well, ;-;~ty not take a few days between second and third rea.ding?3ecause once the Lieutenant-Governor puts his o;ignature on the bill then it becomes 1:.he law of l:he land r do no~ believe in procrastinatiot: but I certainly believe in making sure ~"lat t..~e people of t..~e Province know what it is tl1at is happening in the Legislature, that they know the kind of laws ~~at are being brought down governing their personal activities. ~ewfoundlar~ers always took great pride in the fact -maybe with the -..orld changing. television, permissive society and so fort.~, maybe Newfoundland is a lit.tle late catching up - !-iewfoundlanders always took great. pride in :he fact t:ha.c they were good familt ?eople, good family :;:eople, good living ~::.ristians, I do not. knew if '"'e can say c.hat anymore. '..:J.cr. hear about. all the ar~ed robberies t:ha~ are ~aking piace in t.his 2526

Sovember 91 1979 Tape No. 1006 so - 3 ;.t."t. S. NEARY: Province and all the crime and all ~~e bad examples that have been set, I am beginning to '""onder if we are just not running ten years behind ot."ter parts of Canada and t.'1e united States and it is only r~w it"is catching up and maybe we need quickly, as quick as we can, maybe we have tn pass it this very day, this piece of Legislation. ~aybe we do; maybe there is something I do not ~~ow. 2527

November 9, 1979 Tape 1007 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: The hon. the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) certainly was not very persuasive in his presentation, getting up and flinging out a few statistics at us and defending ~~e Law Society. Mr. Speaker, this bill could be a re4l nightmare. It could be. Whether or not it will be - MR. MARSHALL: Are you against this bill? MR. NEARY: No, ."tr. Speaker. The strange part about it is, in cue the hen. the member for St, John's East. (Mr. Marshall) has any doubts, I am voting for it. I am not going to go down and ask Mr. A. B. Walsh or Ch.arbonneau Associates - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: - or Mr. Craig Dobbin or any of these people that I should voce for, I can make up my own mind. AN HON • MEMBER: How about John Doyle? Well, he would certainly need to have a long microphone between here and Panama, Sir, for me to get his reaction. But if the hon. gentleman asked the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer), I am sure the hen. the !1inister of Justice would be very happy

U) give him an update on that particular gent.leman. Or he ~y not be so happy, I am not quite sure. But anyway, Mr.Speaker, t.."le important thing, the point I am trying t.O :nake is that t:"l.e smooth passage of this bill t..l-t.rough the i..egislature and the support of the Opposition should not be interpreted as meaning t..~at - A."i HON. MEMBER: {Inaudible). ~R. NEAm.'! ~o, ~~at is not it at all - not be interpreted as meaning ~~at it is going to be all clear sailing from now en once ~,e law is passed, because it certainly is not. I can see so many implications in the bill.

I may not have ~~em ~fself. r am hoping ~hen my wife takes ever ~~e mortgage - I will not have a roof over :rr; head• she will continue on, a.s she 2528

November 9, 1979 Tape 1007 MB - 2 MR. NEARY: has agreed, and p,ay the mortgage - that is fine no problem with me. There ...,ill pcobably be no problem wi~~ rny hen. friend, ~~e Minister of Education (Ms. Verge), no problem at 41.11, bu~ it is going to create an awful headache and a lot. of problems for an awful lot of Newfoundlanders who traditionally feel that the man is the caster of his own holl'le. You cannot wipe that out overnight, you cannot: change it overnight. You can bring in all the horror stories you want, you cannot change that thinking overnight- it is there. I do not know what: the rush is, M.r.

Speaker. What difference is another week going to make or another two weeks? What difference is it going to make? Will it make a difference to the by-election in Burin-St.~ George's? No, Sir, it will not because I would submit in that particular riding- MR. WARREN: They think so • MR. ~EA.?.Y: The government may think so. They are deluding themselves, they are living in <'. fool's paradise. As a. :nat:.ter of fact, if t."le people in that: riding, I would submit to t.~e House, including the women, knew that this legislation was going through the House, th.ey would probably vote against the Tory candidate.

It is not going to get one vote in t.~at riding, if that is what ~~e han. gentleman t...'"links, And not only that, but if the government is using it t.c distrac"t. attention from t.he real problems in this Province - t.~e real issues of unemployment, of high electricity rates, of high gasoline prices, the high cost of living, high heating fuel, increase in crime and vandalism - trying to distract from t."te real issues by bringing in t.~is kind of legislation, t.~en that is not going to work eit.>ter, no rore than t.~e go~rnment. putting all its eggs in one basket on offshore oil and gambling on Newfoundland~s future.

It is not going to '""ork. That will not work. So we ha,.-e to examine t.~is ?ieee of legislation on its own merits, not whet.~er 2529

November 9, 1979 Tape 1007 MB - 3 HR. !'lEARY: or not it is going to distract from the fact it is going to take the government three or four or five years to put grade XII into our high schools, when we have grade XII across Canada, grade XIII across Canada, had grade XII in Newfoundland years ago. I have a. brother who took grade XII at St. Bon's College; and it is going 2530

November 9, 1979 Tape No. 1008 GH-1 MR. NEARY: to take ~~e bureaucrats and the mandarins and the politicians three to five years to bring Grade XII back to Newfoundland. It is not going to distract from that kind of procrastination, they can delay that. Grade XII is only going to affect a handful of students, but they can delay that for three to five yearsr let us phase it ln, But a bill, Mr. Speaker, that affe=ts G~e daily lives of just about every Newfoundlander and ram it G'lrough as fast as you can - what is the hurry, can the minister tell us? Has the minister made a ccmmi~~ent to her colleague?

The minister's cctr:.ll~ent is to this House and to this government and not r~ming major legislation through the House affecting the lives of eve~ Newfoundlander in a day or two. We only star~ed debate on this bill yesterday. The goverr~ent could argue G'lat, ·.;ell, we had a thorough debate before t:I'l.e House prorogued and we had a general election. As a ~atter of fact, Mr. Spea~er, I made ~~e last speech in G~e House. :-.m. THO!>'.S: :vm. NEA.R.Y: And there have been major cha"lges, teo.

I made ~~e last speech in the House on this bill, and at 4:00 o'clock ~'lat after::1oon- I finished my speech at 1:00 o'o:lock - and at 4:00 o'clock that afternoon che Premier went and called an election, so the bill was left up in the air. Since then, as my han. colleague points out, there have been ~ajar changes made in ~~e legislation 1 and it was a good G~ing bec~use the govern~e