VOL. 3 NO. 34 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT t .. •. . I . ·l i• ~ HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. J WEDNESDAY, APRIL 19, 1978 :I

April 19, 1978 Tape 1216 IB-1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Before calling the first routine order, I am sure hon. members would wish me to and would join with me in congratulating the hon. member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) on his outstanding accomplishment. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I hope we will not all be expected to emulate him. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. . I" :T j PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, if I may I would like to do two at the one time, one which I have here to table.

I believe the House of Assembly would like to acknowledge the fact that two very prominent Newfoundlanders are in Ottawa today where they are being invested with the prestigious Order of Canada. I refer,of course,to Mr. Cam Gordon Eaton and Dr. Leonard Miller. Mr. Speaker, the Order of Canada was created to recognize outstanding achievements and merit in every major field of endeavour. I cannot think of any two men more deserving of this award. Mr.

Eaton has been involved practically all his life with worthwhile community endeavours too numerous to mention and,as all member are aware,was awarded the Military Cross for his services overseas during the Second World War. Dr. Miller is another outstanding Newfoundlander who has been involved in many worthwhile community projects and endeavours and was awarded the Citizen of the Year in 1971, the year he retired after a prominent career in the civil service. Mr. Speaker, ,f I know I speak for all members of the Rouse in extending our congratulations to these two fine Newfoundlanders. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Rear, hear! PREMIER MOORES: The second thing, Mr. Speaker, I wanted to mention was what you brought up in the beginning. We have paid tribute to our hon. colleague from Kilbride (Mr. Wells). If one remembers the physical shape that gentleman was in just a few short years ago and the

April 18, 1978 Tape 1216 IB-2 PREMIER MOORES: amount of cigarettes and other evils that he participated in at the time, it is absolutely not only a credit to himself but,when we talk about participaction and we talk about the fitness of our youth,and in his case.is an example of fitness to adults.! think it is very rare that we have seen someone with the self determination and the self discipline to have made an achievement of running in and finishing in the Boston Marathon, that very prestigious race.

And I think the man. deserves a tremendous amount of personal credit and is a credit and an example to all Newfoundlanders. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, to deal with the last mentioned matter first, it is just goes to show, Sir, the lengths that some hon. members will go to to get away from this House. AN HON. MEMBER: And the speed with which he did it. ~ f~ .. MR. W. ROWE: And the speed. We are all tempted, I am sure, Sir, sometimes to enter the Boston Marathon if only we could get a respite from the Rouse of Assembly.

But, Sir, we would like to add our word of congratulations to the hon. member. As the Premier said,it was not long ago, Sir, that he could have made a considerable amount of money posing as a before picture for GASP. And now, Sir, of course,he is the picture of health, of vibrant youth. He looks like a man of about twenty-five over there.

I will not disclose his real age, Sir, but he has taken twenty years off his life at least-or twenty years off his age at least and added, I am sure, twenty years on to his life by the actions that he has taken over the last two or three years, and we would like to add our congratulations to this magnificant feat. I do not know, . 'Jut perhaps the hon. member, who had obviously done research in the field,can tell us how many other Newfoundlanders have participated in and finished the Boston Marathon. MR. WELLS: A good many over the years. MR. W. ROWE: A good many over the years. That is encouraging as well, Sir.

Maybe we will all get into it. Maybe the next election we will be

April 19, 1978 Tape 1216 IB-3 MR. W. ROWE: decided on bow many on both sides of the Rouse can get involved in and participate in and stay in the distance for the Boston Marathon. MR. NEARY: There is a many Kelly about sixty who has been running .,f in them for years, I think. MR. W. ROWE: That is right. Sir, so our congratulations to the hon . member for Kilbride (~tr. Wells). I ~ould like to join "'lth the Premier in also extendin g tribute to ~rr. Campbell Eaton and Dr. L.A. Miller , two fine gentlemen, Sir , great representatives of the Newfoundland and Labrador community. Mr.

Eaton, of course, is perhaps most prominent in the way he has handled his jcb or his position as Chairman of the General Hospital Corp.oration. Ele is involv .ed with the Gen.eral Hospital generally in running that institution . Of '· I

April lg, 1978 Tape 1217 EC - 1 MR. W. N. ROWE: course, he is a very prominent businessman as well ancl :hnrolverl in other service and charitable groups, and we extend our congratulations and tribute to him . Dr. Miller, Sir, is a special case altogether, because anybody who served in the government leading up to 197l,or was a member of this House or had anything to do with the Department of Health can only remember Dr. Miller's participation there, Sir, with respect and warmth, a warm feeling.

I rel!lember myself sitting down as a young backbencher back in 1966 in his office just after getting elected, Sir, and the compassion! After so many years of service he was not casehardened at all. I believe he was deputy minister from 1949 onward, from Confederation onward.

So the compassion and dignity and humanity which emanated from the man could not fail to impress anyone who had anything at all to do with him. ·I remember calling him on a couple of occasions when there were emergencies in my former districts, or on Sunday nights, late, talking to him and no sense whatsoever cf having been disturbed or any sense that he did not want to be bothered at that particular time - always eager and willing, Sir, and ready to do his job and to actually take

part in and show the compassion and the humanity and the dignity which anybody knew he possessed in any event <rho had anything to do with him. So I would like to join with the Premier in extending our congratulations and also to send the tribute of this House to these two gentlemen, Mr. Campbell Eaton and Dr. L. A. Miller. SO}~E HON. MEHBERS: Hear, hear! r I , i I I' .,

April 18, 1978 Tape 1217 EC - 2 PRESENTING PETITIONS MR . . SPEAKER: The han. the member for Haunt Pearl. MR. N. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce two petitions,actually, on behalf of the han. ! ' the Premier, the first one from 562 residents of the ., I district of Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. Their petition, J Mr.

Speaker, reads as follows: "l-le, the under signed :i residents of Ramea, Newfoundland, do hereby protest government's decision to reduce the number of teachers allocated to school boards throughout the Province and 1: do hereby request the government to review its decision until such time as a thorough studv can be undertaken and completed on this matter." Does anybody want to speak on it before I do the second one - shall I do one at a time? MR. SIMHONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I am very pleased to see that the member for Mount Pearl has the agreement of the Premier to table this petition. This is the one which was the subject of the matter of privilege I raised in the House a week or two ago. And the history behind the petition is that I suggested to the people concerned that ' I this is such an important issue, the matter of the education cutbacks is such an important issue that at least one of their petitions ought to be addressed directly to the Premier. And we were watching for it.

I knew when it was circulated, at what date it came here, and it was my concern on the matter that the petition had not been presented that prompted me a week or so ago to raise the matter of privilege.

April 19, 1978 Tape 1217 EC - 3 MR. SIM}fONS: This issue, in this case being petitioned by 561 people in my district in the town of "Ramea, is an issue that is going to mushroom. We are going to hear from people all over the Province, all over my district and all over the Province. It is not the only one the Premier is going to get. I believe in sharing things around. And I am disappointed that he himself did not see fit to stand and present the petition - no reflection on the member for Mount Pearl (Mr.

N.Windsor); it is part of his responsibility and I accept it in that spirit, But I would have hoped that the Premier would have seen these petitions, not coming from his own district but from another district at the direction or suggestion of the member for that particular district, that they come into the hands of the Premier so that the Premier of the Province could be identified with the prayer of the petition. I will have a look at the petition later to see who signed it, whether it was the member for Mount Pearl, who is presenting it, or the Premier.

And as much as I am very happy to have the signature of the member for Mount Pearl on the petition, I would hope also that the Premier of this Province would see fit to associate himself with it. I am a little concerned about the method here. We can wonder out loud I~ . · .{ .. ! li -~ ' l' I . ' ,s . . [' I J -:: ) f r

April 19, 1978 Tape 1218 IB-1 MR. SIMMONS: if the petition would ever have been presented had it not been for the matter of privilege I raised a week or so ago, but that is a matter of speculation now. The real question is, is the Premier shying away from this important issue? Is he using the route that has been used today to disassociate himself from a very crucial issue to the people of Ramea and to the people of every community in this Province, Mr. Speaker? It is an issue that is not going to go away,I tell the - Premier. It is an issue that he is going to hear from many thousands of people on.

I say the same thing to the Minister of Education (Mr. House). He just does not realize what a bombshell he has set off here with his agreement, I suggest, passive agreement - I am sure he did not advise these cutbacks - but with his passive agreement in Cabinet to allow these cutbacks in education at this particular time, he set off quite a bombshell. He is going to be hearing about it for a long, long time to come. Now, Mr. Speaker, hearing about it is not enough. Are we going to get a select committee of this House or are we not?

Are we, as members of this House , going to have the opportunity to hear what is on people's minds about the subject of education cutbacks, education quality, the equality of educational opportunity?

What is wrong with the propo~al that we set up a select committee in the next few days to address itself to this whole question to give five or six or seven members of this House the full opportunity to receive briefs, to talk to people around this Province and to make recommendations to this House on the subject of the educational cutbacks and the quality of education, make appropriate recommendations so we can, as a House, be guided in the kind of action we take to ensure that the quality of education in this Province at the elementary and secondary level is not being adversely affected by the present policies of the government.

I think the quality is being adversely affected by the policies of the government and I think before it goes too far to a point where it is irretrievable, I think we ought to take - ~ I ' f ! . - l I • i ~ i; ~ ~ I' i • ;

April 19, 1978 Tape 1218 IB-2 MR. SIMMONS: some action. And I believe the appropriate action right now in the face of the numbers of petitions we are getting - scarcely a day goes by, Mr. Speaker, but we talk about this issue - in the face of the numbers of petitions we are getting and in the face of the very genuine concern that exists in all parts of this Province on the subject, let us have the government introduce or make the proper move to have a select committee appointed, a select committee of this House to do the work that needs so badly to be done. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Baie Verte-•fuite Bay.

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I just want to take a minute or so to support the prayer of the petition presented by the hon. member for Mount Pearl (Mr. Windsor) on behalf of the five hundred- and- some-odd residents of Ramea. I think it is an opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to point out that the drastic cutbacks in education in this Province proposed by the minister and the government are going to hit education in Newfoundland where it hurts the most, and that is in the rural parts of this Province. It will be inequitable certainly in the way that the share is going to be apportioned throughout the Province. Mr.

Speaker, when we talk about the quality of education in this Province and if Prince of Wales Colle~iate or Bishop Fields College or Brother Rice High School lose a teacher, it will mean that instead of having three classes of music a week they may be cut back by one. It would mean they may be cut back in one physical education period a week or one industrial arts period a week or something of that nature. But when you take one teacher out of a school in Woodstock, Mr. Speaker, it means that you have lost your kindergarten programme.

Or if you take one teacher out of the high school in Englee where you have forty or forty-five grade nine, ten or eleven students, it meRns that you put two grades, IX and X or X:and XI in the one classroom. That is where it is going to hurt, Mr. Speaker. It is not going to hurt in the larger centers in this Province. It is going to mean that the rural ·. r: i I· t.

April 19, 1978 Tape 1218 IB-3 MR. RIDEOUT: areas of Newfoundland will not have an equal opportunity and the same opportuniry to a qualiry educa t ion that you will find anywhere else in this Province. And that is where the Minister of Education and this government are doing a disservice to the rural areas of this Province when their theme of development is to develop the rural areas. So the i nequity and the unfair treatment that the rural areas of this Pr ovince are going to receive through this policy cutback in educa t ion has yet to come to light. And I would · I . ! I hope that, as my colleague suggested, that we will have a.n opportunity ., I• I i .. • i t _, I ~ I t y

April El, 1972 Tape ~ro. 121::' ;r.: - 1 ::CR.. RIDEOl:T: throug!1 a select committee] or sorJe o th.~r means in this :rouse, to fully analyze t~e rest:lts of tl1is particular pro:;ra=e. It is the rural areas of this Province that are going to be r.urt. It is :lot going to be the urban centres, and it is tl1c people in those areaa ~~hose chil<~ren are not going to have t;1e sa.::c opportu:J.ity £or a reasonable education that you are going to fi:l.d in the urban areas. !!1at is ''hat ,,,e are talking about and that is why I H!l.ole-heartedly support this petition. The hon. member for Le•~isporte. '!R. HHITE: ::r.

Speaker, I just want to speak briefly ' r to support this petition, because I feel I :nust,in view of the ' fact that t!lere are :;oing to be some teacher cut :,2.cks in n~· area next year, particularly in the small rural areas t1.uJ.t the -;entle:aen •·rho have spoken before ~e today have ?Ointe-:1 out. I .! ., I just 1o1ant. to ~e~tion a lettzr that I received i:: t::e z:;.ail today, :rr. S!Jea1:er, ,.}rith reference to this particular petition and it comes from the Integrated Elementay School at Comfort Cove~ :Te•·rsteac, and it ties in Hith t!'lia petition, '~r. Speaker.

It says th"-t, "'Juring t!'le last three yeers t!'le Gor.~fort Cove School and t!'le !.oon Bay School have sh2.rec the sa"!e physical education teacher." And I mig:'lt ;mi:1t out to "ton. ~entle:::en that I went to this P"-rticnlar school an-i •·rit.l-t the tal'< of ;:>hysical education 'here in this Honsc.e today, tbis is rather i:-1nortant.

"In fact," th"' letter says, "durin~ the :'·:!St s~ve!' ~'ears tha': t~is scltool h."s been or>ened we have all,ays haci a physical eJucatiun school seven years ago, -:.;c r,vill Le "''-~ .. ::hout a pt~ysical e~l..:.c.ation program::1e far our five. to t~irte.en year old students wi:en t~H~Y GlOst need. it.'' ' 1' T::at is prpgress £or yo~, ti1et is prog~ess. :~o~-~, ;.lr. Speal:'"r, I just cca:-.t to support tll:.s petitior. anci poin;: out my ccncern t:lat ti:.e rural areas of t!lis ?rovince r

Tape :;o. 121? u_ .. - 2 lvill be mast adversely affected by this. :hny of us who 1.;-ent to scl~oo1 in rural areas, :~r. Speaker, realize tile prognss that has been made in eJucation during the last ten .years. The sci1ool that I went to >·;hen I finished grade eleven there, there 1.;as not a single teacher on staff 'lith IilOre than one year university training. Today in that school, ::r. Speaker, there is not one teacher un staff ~'ho does not have a ~•iversity degree.

So it is very important and I support the call tl~at has ~een ma:Oe by my colleague here for a select committee of t:·J.is i::!ouse to study all aspects of the quality of education in :'ewfounciland and I think it is encilubent on members here to get on with the job. T'.1e han. member for Hount Pearl. MR.. N. WINDSOR ; ::r. C~1airnan, I asl: leave to i:o.trocluc~ a secane: .. pe!:ition,on behalf of the c1on. the Prer.:ier, from some 583 residents of the co=unity of :\orris Arm.

Sir, that petition is, ''cle, the undersigned concerned citizen~s of :~orris Ar:n, hereby 3ubmit a petition to the govern.'llent of tl2wfoundland, asking for their It .I i~ediate attention to improve and pave our road in the to1;n !. of :~orris Ar~..'' .. Sir, I support this petition and ask that it be laid o.:m t:'le table of the House and referrerl to the department to ~Jhic:1. it relates. T!:J.e hon. ::~ember for Le•·;isporte. ~- T:IIT3: :ir. Speaker, I-"'" ::;lad as ~··.all ~:1at tt.e IJ.e.T.ilier for ::aunt P·22.rl C~r. :; .. ~ri~dsor) has presented this petition in t:~e ::au;:; e.

I ;;ave the petition to t"u: I·:rc~ier. It Has ":>rous;1t into St. John's to we by a Gclegation fro::. ~:o::-ris Ar1:1 .S,:,u.th and I ;·Jill say, :rr. Speakar, that T t!1in~'- tile prayer of the petition ~1as alreatiy been met. ::e had a long weeting ~ .... it:1 t!'_e :~inister of Transport<J.tion and Co=unications an:l vrith ::is officials,and I l.Leard the :.iayor of ]orris .-\rLJ. on t:-:1e air tod2.:r· ;;iving :;.is vie-::-s on

April 1~, l97S Tn.pe :ro.. 1219 ·'·" . 3 :CR. ~<.UTE: wh.::t Has discussed at t:1e neeting and t~e ·' res:'onse t!1at :1e got to the meeting and I support this petition, l:r. Speaker, and I am glad to say that it is our feeling that '~hat is contained in it will be carried out starting this year. Pf\LS:W~TI:~G RZPORT::J JY ST!~X~I~~G A~7D SPECI..-i..!. COI~~TT:S:SS : The han. :rinister of Transportation and Co~.unications. 1;r. Speaker, I table t!1e annual report of tCJ.e C.A. Pippy Park Connission for 1975-77. Tile !ton. !:inistcr cf :"orestry a.nd :'.sricult~re, and President of the Council. :~r.

Speaker, I ''ould lic:c to t.::J.ble ' :clevelop=:ent .~reas .'.n:endr:tent "?.e:;ulations, 1978. ,, ; ~lCTICES 0F :~OTIC':r: ~ : :!'.. S P ':.\!CEP. : The hon. neDber for Grand Falls. ,k < :!r.

Spe~ker, I •vould like to sive notice that ~ on to!'!orrow I "ould li'-'.e to !!love a notion, $econded by the '10n. :ne;,'!Je!' for :!ount Scio, as follows: 11 ~·1hereas t~e need.s an<! r<!quirements for puhlic serrices in 'ie:·7foundL:mc1 far exceed t~. e i 1~. 1: financial cspability of the Province. despite the e:;;ces£ive )!. 1'. ' t= burden on tCJ.e peo::>le of t~-:e Province, .:.nC. '"hereas t;1e feneral ' ,, ~ :;o're=:"lent .'\ccepts the conditions of Term 29, with the paymeut if_ :~ annually of $3 million to assisc in the developm~~t of p~~~c ' l " 5ervices in t~is Province to a level conpara!:>le to t.1ose existit'!g · ~ ·~ . in t~1.~ ot~er Atlantic Provinces, ·and ""l=:ereil::; t : ~e $S mllior.~. translateU i ' i..'"lto 1~70 t~ro.s ~.;-oulJ approxi~ate ~o:.....e ~35 million, ~2 it therefore to t:1e faderal gover=er:t in su,?port of t:1e renei;otiation of :::1e :.enefits curra::Cly ·~ei••g received by t:1e ?rovince on the aforesaid ::.tentioned cor:stitution;ll power. i·ir. ~p.;aker, I :.:.r.ow I am not alloweci to refer to anythin6 Ueyond che @OViag or givi~g ..

,~;nil 19, 197S Tape do. 1220 J:i - 1 ~l.R. LUllDRIG.A.'!: notice of ti1e lllOtion but I do hope that bearing in Jaiud there are a large number of orders on the Or<.ier Paper and resolutions that we can &et to that particular resolution with a bit dispatch. ORAL QliESTIG:IS: dR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. :;a. \~.:1. ::Ww"E: Sir, I would like to direct a question to the 'linister of Iiealti1.

He may recall tl1at two or three days ago I asked ~ about the hiring procedures used by boards representing the public interest and answerable to the cinister, a.•d ti1ere£ore the minister to this <louse, such as the General Hospital. Sir, I hope the minister does not take my words and twist theJa around. We had a man who heads up the hospital board i1ere get the Order of Ca.>ada today so I an net talking about the quality of t'1e people concerned on these board:>. I \<ant hiru to tell us, Sir, what procedures were used ui1e.n they hired :rr.

Syrett as the medical director, the library director or whatever it was, .a very \<.ey position in any event - :redical records director. :·ilL II. :L ROlfE: ;]edical records director, !·fr. Speaker, T,;hat procedures \<ere used by the board? Surely the minister has by now haci the presence of :ilind and th;! concern to make sor..e et·,quiries ::o the Hospital .i?.oard to find out what procedures w·ere used to hire :rr. Syrett as tile medical records director, a highly illlportant position. :rn.. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of "ealth. :r.K •• 1. COLLI~lS: :ir. Speaker, .:J.S I indicated to the hon.

"'eulber, I think it was the Leader of the O;o;>osition, two days ago that under the General iiospital Cornoration Act and under the: i-!ospital' s Act tha boards ancl the ad:nir.istration of the hospital who derive their authority from the boards have the right to o'lire and fire and so on and so forth. I undertook at the ti~e,or I gave an undertaking to g;ive the matter some consideration ·.;hich I am doing and should have the information momentarily. I was in my district yes::.er c ay welcow.i~g ., .i ,I •I

April 19, 1976 T;J.pe ~ -~o. l22U J:I - 2 :.:z. Lang out t!"tere, a very fine ger.tl=an and it is too bad we cio not i1ave i:lore lih.e i1im on the oti1er sicie of thi:; iiouse, :rr. Spea!.;;er. 5ut .:~.s ..;oon as I .;et tile information ti1en I :vill debo.te ~;i1eti1er it su.oulu be cabled or not,but I certainly will ;;ive it every consic!eratioa ami I will get b.:~ck to the hon. me!liberl ho;x:fully tccorroH . • lR. SPEAYJ:R: A supplell!eutary, the Leader of the Opposition. Hr. Speaker, that is IJ.Ot good enougi1.

Tl1e :!iuister of lleal th, Sir, is res;>onsible to the ;>ub:iic througi1 this liouse of ~sew.bly,aud i1e is telling us tnat i1e itas aot yet i1ad the concern, iu view of very serious allegations, l1e has not i;ad the concern, Sir, or taKen the time, five w.L•utes to pick up the phone,to find out how b1is ;;entleD<<..n was hired. He as :rinister of Health cioes not know, Sir, i1o:'l a boarci,which is ~esponsible to lli::1 1hires its '-"'Y responsible officials. I am [lOt askL<g i1:Un, Sir, ::o ir,terfere in tr1e i1iri.ng or firL•g.

I ar.1 asking i1im to tell r..e as a mewber of tile liouse 1 anu tilis house of Asso.!Llbly representing the people, how the responsible officials of an important bociy such as the General liospital or any otiw.r i1ospital, how these officials are hired. i>hat are tile procedures? Hm; are tile public ;:-rot~cted a;;ainst peopl£ such as ;'lr. Syrett who apparently used fraudulent :.leans ia order to obtain a ili~iliy responsible position and ~se that, Sir, parlay t~at pusition into an eveu .aore responsible position which has led to somt; ver)• devastating results?

Does the cinister have to rise in t itis House aac! adt.:it that he does uot know llow t;1ese !<ey officials are i1ired by these boards, which boards g.re responsible to nim anci through i1im to t:1is leo use of Assembly, :1r. Speak<:r? The hou. :!inister of r;ealth. :.c:::.. "· COLLn;s: :rr. Speaker, I cannot let those ra'larks ,>o unci1allanged. T~1e auswer I gave to the Leader of the Opposition v;as quite factual, straightforward, '"nci that is that the uospit.:J.l boar ds have the right to hire ar:.d fire people on tvhatever position that ;.;e approve; for them 1 .I I I l· L i, I· . ii !~ ···~ ., ,. ! r i

April 19, 197\S T~e :o. 1220 JM- 3 a.nd this gover=ent, :.rr. Spaal~r, has never become 1: I• involved in tryir~ to dictate the people who are hired,which was the l practise· during the past adoinistr:ltion witil which the hon. the Leader of the. Opposition l:lust be very fauiliar wit.h. I gave the han. Leader of the Opposition the undertaking that I would get all the relevant information and after I have seen that, and that is in the process of being made available to l:le, after I have seen that then I will decide if in fact it should be tabled in this han. House. Htl.. ll. :<. RQ)/E : Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. c . ' f

April 19, 1978 Tape 1221 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I would point out that there is always the danger with supplementaries that the matter can lead to debate and I wish to underline the matter that rules do not permit debate. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. N. ROWE: Thank you, Sir. In view of the public urgency of this kind of a matter, will the minister indicate to the House when he will be in a position, Mr. Speaker, to tell us what the procedures for hiring and firing responsible officials of boards of institutions are?

When will he be able to give us this information? MR. H COLT INS: HR. NOLAN: MR. NEARY: ~fR. SPEAKER: supplementary, Hnnefullv tomnrrnY. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. }fr. Speaker - Some han. member asked for a I did not hear which one. The han. the member for Conception Bay South, I will hear a supplementary and then the han. the member for LaPoile. HR. NOLAN: With your permission, Mr.Speaker, I would like to, as a

preamble if I may, suggest to the han. minister on my question, that this morning his colleague, the Minister of Municipal Affairs, on CBC indicated publicly that he had taken action in his ministerial capacity to interfere with the development of hundreds of housing units in Cowan Heights administered by the St. John's Housing Corporation because it might interfere,and would interfere possibly with lots already

April 19, 1978 Tape 1221 EC - 2 MR. NOLAN: held by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. I am sorry if I confused - the St. John's Housing has the lots on Cowan Avenue. Now these are two corporations which the minister have taken direct action in, and perhaps rightly so. How can the minister then suggest that this minister has the authority to exercise control over what a corporation of the provincial government will do, and this minister wants to wash his hands of the whole Syrett affair?

And if he is going to take this position, the Premier of the Province cannot renege on his responsibility to take immediate action. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: I will recognize the hen. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: There are a number of ministers on the government side, Sir, who have two and three and four dep~~tments to look after and the government seems to be crumbling, falling apart. MR. NOLAN: Could we have desk signs, please? MR. NEARY: And, Mr. Speaker, the whole civil service seems to be demoralized.

But I do not think the Minister of Fisheries has more than one portfolio, but something seems to be happening. In the minister's department we have two high ranking officials who have, I believe, submitted their resignations recently, namely, the assistant Deputy Minister of Fisheries in charge of facilities, Mr. Joe Burden, and Mr. Dave Greeley, Director of Fisheries Development - two top ranking officials of the Department of Fisheries. Could the minister first of all tell us if it is correct that these two gentlemen have submitted their resignations or have indicated to the . ~ " ' ' -=!

April 19, 1978 Tape 1221 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: minister that they are going to resign? And if so, could the minister tell us the reason? Are they leaving voluntarily or under duress? What is the reason? Or is the government falling apart? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, certainly the two gentlemen in question, the assistant Deputy Minister, Mr. Burden, and Mr. Greeley both have indicated their intentions of leaving to enter private business, which is their right. Mr.

Burden, of course, who has been a very competent assistant Deputy Minister, a very competent civil engineer, has indicated his desire to enter private practice in that profession, and Mr. Greeley will be going into a private business as well. Certainly, it is not under duress. Both gentlemen have performed extremely valuable services to the department. ~e are sorry to see them go. But, as I said, for the reasons that they have given there is not much we can do about it. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~R. NEARY: A supplementary to the hon. the Premier, Sir.

Would the hon. the Premier tell the House, in view of the fact that the whole public service seems to be demoralized because of the threat of layoffs hanging over their heads of 300 jobs, plus the fact that ministers cannot handle the portfolios that have been flung at them, two and three and four - the Minister of Finance, for instance, who threatened to resign a year ago because he could not handle Finance, and now we have one minister handling two huge portfolios, Justice and { .

April 19, 1978 Tape 1 221 EC - 4 MR. NEARY: Finance - NR. W. ~. ROWE: Plus House leadership. ~R. ~EABY: - plus Rouse leadership. And the ministe r ~ho could not handle Finance has no~ three departments to look after . Would the Premier indicate to the House if there are any more resignations of top ranking public servants ~bo hav e eith er threatened to resign , indicated that they are going to resign? And ~hat does the Premier intend to do about this ma tter that is causing gross inefficiency

April 19, 1978 Tape 1222 IB-1 MR. NEARY: in the various departments and in the Public ServicLas a result of the heavy burden that is placed on the shoulders of one or two or three ministers in the Cabinet? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, that is a foolish question. First of all,there are no inefficiencies, there is no great unrest,as the bon. member would say. The fact is that the portfolio of Finance last year was coupled with Treasury Board,which makes it very different from just the portfolio of finance alone. There are no threatened resignations from the ministry.

There are no threatened resignations - there may be some, I am no idea - from the senior civil servants. The replacement of the people who will be laid off 1 I would suggest, Sir, in the main will be done by attrition,which is the logical way to do it. So the only people who will be basically resigning from the service are people who already know they are going to be leaving either for retirement or for other reasons. It is the sort of question, Sir, that, you know, I suppose basically should not be answered because~as I said~it is too damned stupid to answer. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER: I will hear one additional supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is rather a stupid question,alright,when we see the mess that is in the Department of Public Works. All the evidence is coming out now, Sir. I would like to ask the Premier that question, to elaborate and to tell us whether that mess is straightened out and whether they are now calling public tenders. But I will leave that for another time. I want to ask the minister about the Minister of Consumer Affairs (Mr. Murphy). Who is now handling that responsibility? Will the minister be coming back to the House?

Will he be returning to his duties or has the minister- •··ho I understand is not feeling well, and I am sorry to hear that, that is rather unfortunate - haE he now taken up permanent residence in Sarasota? Will the gentleman be coming back ·I I ·( .I . ! I

April 19, 1978 Tape 1222 IB-2 MR. NEARY: to Elizabeth Towers or has the gentleman indicated that he wishes to retire from the Cabinet, remain in the House until the election is called and_ then drop out of politics altogether? What is the story on this particular minister? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I am sure when the minister gets back, which will be shortly, by the way, that will be answered. In the meantime the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary~ his good friend and colleague in the House, the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation (Mr.

Hickey),is looking after Consumer Affairs and the Environment, and I know,knowing the relationship between those two gentlemen,there ~~11 be absolutely no problem getting any information about that department from the hon. minister. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight), followed by the han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons). MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the han. Minister of Industrial Development (Dr. Farrell).

The previous minister, the present minister's predecessor, indicated in the House that he was not prepared to establish Buchans Development Corporation as recommended in the- that was one of the top recommendations in the Buchans Task Force Report. Would the minister care to indicate as to what his position is on establishing such a corporation? Does he hold the same view,or is he prepared to establish,as recommended ' the Buchans Development Corporation? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Industrial Development. DR. FARRELL: Mr.

Speaker, in answer to my han. friend, I had a meeting with the Buchans Task Force Committee, I believe approximately, they were in here three or four weeks ago. And I have had communications with them. We discussed this whole area in industrial development, an industrial development officer and a development corporation. And they set up the Steering Committee}which I received some word from - if I remember these details correctly now, approximately a - I ~ I I .I I , .. I i I. ·I' I .,. I . i~ !~ " ' !~. '· r

April 19, 1978 Tape 1222 IB-3 DR. FARRELL: week ago to get a meeting set up to continue on the negotiations.As far as my feeling is, yes,I would like to get that type of corporation established and give them every assistance possible to industrial development. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ·j MR. FLIGHT: I wonder if the minister would be prenared to be specific.

Quite apart from the Buchans-Howley road or the Hinds Lake Development ., Corporation, is the minister or his department considering any form of industrial development that would have the effect of shoring up Buchans economy in view of the fact that the economy, the mines,are destined to close in March, 1979? Is there any industrial development I to which consideration is being given now~or just what is the minister's ! attitude towards the Buchans scene? .I " MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial Development. DR.

FARRELL: We are in the process right now of defining any area in the Buchans area where we can help them in any development possible 1 wherever it is~and that is where the process is right now. And we are willing to assist in any area from any resource policy position of this government; we will be willing to go ahead. And that is what we are hoping to do and that is what we will be doing in the near future. Hopefully we will be getting together and initiating some of that. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, would the minister indicate if they have pinpointed any one particular development that the government is prepared to fund or pursue? Can the minister name for the House, of all the recommendations the

April 19, 197 3 Tape i{o. 1223 J:·l - 1 :!R. FLIGHT: Buchans Task Force have put, of all the possible developraents,industrial and otherwise,that could have been undertaken to shore up the Buchans economy when the ~ine closes, can the minister indicate to the House of any one,specific underta~:ing by '~ay of developraent th2.t he is :rN'are of and t'1at his department is looking at and puttir1g in place L< Buchans and jn the Buchans area? C.!R. SPEAKER: The han. :Iinister of Industrial Development. DR. T. FARllELL: ~!r. Speaker, no.

Because that, I feel, is up to tile people and that is \That they are <vorking on, the committee out there, end when t:<ey come to us >le 'N'ill certainly supply all our expertise, all the nelp we can in every way as far as development areas, development offices,advice, "hich clirections to c;o in,anu that is t ~1e approach tile are going to ta.h.e.

As I said in an initial wec;ti:"iz; with lilt•• tl-,e resource policy group - I am sorTy I cannot be any more specific at c;1., moiCce.~t . - we are hoping to initiate,as soon as we get tiue c1nci iu tb.e ne;;'t we:ek or so., a further meeting on what t~1e coTill:.•ltt.e.e bave s~t Uk>. The han, w.ember for 3urgeo-Eay J 'Espoir • ~.;\. r .. sr:;::o:1s: .1.1r. Speaker, ~vllu u.cec.i.s tLH:! Los ton _!aru.trion, l:JC. ll.:l.Ve our e::...:ercise over here. ~~ir. Spo::ak.er, I ~1ave a qui:.stioi.L for th~ :1oG.. the Premier.

It relates ~a t~"le Ter1n 29 of the Terns of :'nion betKeen l·ieufou.ndlanti u.nc.l C.:1r~o.tia. I lli.l -:;onci.E=.riilb if t~1~S Premier could ir:dicate 'vheth'"r the provL<ce has ;.J.J.de any represent:J.tion to Otta,,a on the subject of the provisions of Ter<OJ 2~? ~-ill. SPEAKER: The llon, Pre:aier.

Pt:Z.:.·:IER :-:OORES: The ar.swer is for a consiuersble lell;;th of tir.:e ,.,c: nave beeu talking to v;;.rious officials in th~ Dc:part:.1e·c,t cf Fi~,a:J.cc: ia Ottawa 1 ar.<l J.lso at t!1e mi.<istc:rial level,just: m: t:1e ba:;is of the ...ao!:ica that r.vaoti put toda:,..", because in fact if ·,;e tak~ the true !:le.::lni..J.g of Terw 29 it is something that is really or;.e of attitude '-lith ;;overr.r.ent. There is a reason :J.nci a tecimical case after r:i1e commissior., I guess - What year ·.11.:r::: it, the commission -wa.s? ., - i I ' • i ,,

A;:>ril 19, 1978 Tape He. 1223 JO!- 2. MR. HICKMAN: 1957. PR£1IER ;.,QQP..ES: 1957,which put this figure on it but certainly if ~1ere ·..as a chang<: of attitude in Ottawa that was sympathetic to the real meaning of the Term 29 itself,it could very easily be translated in 1977 dollars and this nas L:Jeen not so:nething we >1ave made <. lot of publicity about but something that,and I do not think you can because it is not a matter of one government going against another governmen~; It is something that we have been working very strenuously on wit;l our Federal counterparts. liR. SI:li!ONS: A supplementary. ;IR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. :1.~. SI:-li·IONS: :tr. Speaker, I wonder would the Pre;nier in<iicate lifr.at tho: nature of the representation is to Ottawa? \vhat I am getting at in effect for ltis guidance in answerint; the question, I am uot •;anting l1ir:1 to spill tlu: Jeans in te=s uf anything wilich is private,or lms i:ly uecessity to be kept private,but I am wondering if the representatiou to Ottawa is by way of renegotiatinb the provision.;; of Tern. 29 or in terms of l1avin~ the present dollar fi;;ure trar.slated into c:res.:>nt clay dollars instead of 1957 dollars? ·' :·lR. SPE.i\l.XR: The hen. Premier.

PREi.!IER ;!QORES: :rr. Speaker, the raain tru.;;t was to i1ave ::he 1 57 dollars converted into '77 dollars or '78 Jollars. The terms itself I \>Jould su~est ·.;ould be very difficult to do. As far as the level of ne:;otiation is concerned 1 I personally i1ave talked to the Pr:ii:le ~iinister about it and it has ;;one to the level of the offici<J.ls of finance. So there have been quite a fm" people involved in it. ,,..." SPE.AKEl~: A final supplei!!entary.

The Premier has i~dicatecl he ;las talked to the Pri::~e :-!inister of Canada on this su!:>ject, Could he indicate just hmv recent ·- tlmt particul<:.r discussion was anci c.lso 1·:i1ether any time tablE has been .1ailed down for a res;>onse or for a furt:1er meeting on the subject'? Il:R. SPEAIXR: The :wn. Premier. Pf..E:[IER :•[OOP.ES: lir. Speaker, I a.-n not sure of the exact date but

April 19, 1978 T01pe :~o . 1223 .1!-1 - 3 P!m:·tiE:t !!OO.:illS: ic wc:s around early Febr:.~ary . It was since Chr ist,.as or shortly t!lereaft;;r . As I S3.id ,ic 1~as done on a ne~:eralized basis . It uas taken down co the officius to stud; e :<actly wil.at ci1e bplicac.ions ;.-ere ami 'Jhat the potentials were. Ic i1as :1ot :;one beyond that but it is :1ot something we ~vc forgott2n . It is something t3a t we are very ~uch in communication auout . :!a. SPEAKER: The hon . meober for Daie Ver te-w1dte Say followed b~ Trinit y- Bay de Verde. :ofR. RIDI:OUT: Trumk you , .:r.

S;>eal:.:!r. ··'i GUC:>tion is !:cr c::e .'ii.::.:.:Sce:r of Transporcatio:1 anc:l Co=unicatious . The minister sign ed the Trat:s · Canada l!i~;h1·.•ay agree:lllent yesterda y 1.1iti1 his re.:;eru CO:JUteryart i.l Cru~der , arui I '"onde r il tne mi.I:iscer is r.ow ir: tile ?OSition to give the !;ouse aoLte incica tior: as to -..;i'lat areas vf ~uc Tr ans·Ca;:c.cia l:igh1:ay work 'dill begin on c:us year . :;e know t:1at so:ne areas are in far ~'Orse :Shape thz.:t .);:::ers .

So I wor.cer :.£ ti:c r..iu:.:Ster coul..i l"t us have so:ne word of wilac arees o f the Trans-Ca."t<.ca !:ig :11~y ~ork will ~egin o~ tUi~ yc~r ~ow ic vi~~ of ~e fact ~hat cjc :·IR. SP::.:<.ER: ·r:,e oon • ..Unis:e ·r of TraLspo:rt acion a~.d Co=unlc .:tti or.&. I I ., ! i: r ' . ~~ I! '• H , I ~· f r

April 19, 1978, Tape 1224, Page 1 -- apb MR. DOODY: I hope to get that

schedule before the House at a fairly early date. Some work on the actual construction will being this Summer - it will probably be late this Summer - other areas we probably will not reach on until the following year: it depends on how much pre-engineering and design work has to be done. The actual

schedule of work, when it will commence and what the staging and dating of it is, I do not have available at the present time. It has been worked on has been in the process of being brought up to date during the past several weeks and hopefully we will have a comprehensive report for the House in the near future. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, there was some concern that when the first work was done on the Trans-Canada Highway it may not have been done to the standard to which it ought to have been done because the first sections of the highway were done under a fifty/fifty agreement.

In view of the fact that the wor:, is to be carriedout now over the next three or four years will be carried out on a fifty/fifty cost shared basis, can the minister tell the House whether or not the work that will be carried out will be the maximum, up to the top standard rather than the minimum standard? In view of the fact that it is on a fifty/fifty cost shared basis what standard will be used in the work that will be carried out on the Trans-Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DOODY: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, one of the principles behind the Government of Canada's willingness to enter into this agreement with the Atlantic Provinces was to bring sections of the Trans-Canada Highway in the .. I I .1

April 19, 1978, Tape 1224, Page 2 -- apb MR. DOODY: Atlantic Provinces up to a common standard, the highest standard, a standard that can sustain certain trailer and tractor and axle weights whi~h would facilitate the shipment of goods from one point to another in Canada at a relatively uniform rate and with less transshipment charges and so on. So it will be brought up to the highest standard rather than to the lowest permissible standard. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, the minister indicated to the House previously that when the deal would be signed there would be a reopener clause in the agreement pending the submission of the Sullivan Royal Commission. I wonder if the minister could tell the House what type of clause that is? Does it have to have the agreement of both governments to be reopened or can it be reopened at the request of the Government of Newfoundland, or exactly what . does the agreement say? Are we into a closed situation or can it be reopened at our request? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister. MR.

DOODY: I would be only too happy to table a copy of the agreement so that members can have an opportunity to look at it themselves, but it is by agreement of both ministers that the agreement can be opened. MR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I had indicated that I would only hear one additional supplementary, which I have heard. The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F.B.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health, Sir.

In view of the great number of letters and phone calls we are getting from people who cannot afford the three dollar ward fee for the fifteen days totalling forty-five dollars, could the minister

April 19, 1978, Tape 1224, Page 3 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: indicate whether there are any people who are being turned away from hospitals if they cannot afford the ward fee? If not, what procedures are being used to admit these people who cannot afford the ward fee to the various hospitals in the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. MR . H, COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, I would appreciate seeing the letters that the hon. member alludes to.

I have not received one myself, but in response to his question the senior citizens, of course, are exempted from the requirement and I do not know of any case in Newfoundland, and I am not looking forward to ever hearing of one,where anyone will be refused admission to a hospital. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. F.B.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I did not ask the minister whether he had received any letters or telephone calls; I stated quite clearly that I had received letters and telephone calls and I asked him what the procedures were for entrance or admission to hospitals if they cannot afford it.

Could the minister indicate, Sir, and answer the first question first? Could he further answer another question and that is, in the case of people who presumably are, as I understand some have been admitted to hospital and cannot afford to pay the •1ard fee, upon release is there any chance that these people's names could be forwarded to the Credit Bureau over a period of time for non-payment of a fee that they cannot afford to pay? MR. SPEAKER: MR. H. COLLINS: The hon. Minister of Health. Well, Mr.

Speaker, every hospital develops their own criteria in terms of how charges are applied and how collections are done. I want to reassure the House and the hon. member who is asking that never has anyone been denied

April 19, 1978 Tape No. 1225 NM - 1 UR. H. COLLINS: hospital admission in Newfoundland and I do not see that happening now. I believe that from the reports which I am getting, the people in the Province realize the situation we are in and that people are co-operating to thefullest degree. MR. ROWE: A supplementary, Nr. Speaker. UR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. UR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, could the minister undertake to find out from the various hospital boards or corporations, whether or not there is a chance of these people having their names submitted to the Credit Bureau, number one; and could the minister also answer, Sir, whether or not if a person stays in a cottage hospital for a period of,say,ten to fifteen days , which is the case in some cases, and then is transferred to another major hospital,such as the General Hospital, whether that person has to pay for the fifteen days in the cottage hospital and then c turn around and have to pay for the additional fifteen days in the larger hospital? }IR.

H. COLLIN::i: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the $3 charge applies for [. ' ; a period of fifteen days, up to a maximum of $45. In the event that a person ran up the fifteen days in any given hospital, and was discharged but was required to come b8ck again for further treatment to the original problem, whatever that might have been, if that happens within a sixty day period then there is no charge. If ~t should be after a six ty day period we are negotiating with the hospitals now to see how to handle that.

With regard to the hon. member's question in terms of were a patient to spend,say,twelve days in the Brookfield Cottage Hospital and then be transferred to the General for another twelve or fifteen days, in any given year the total of fifteen days, whether he is involved in one hospital, two or three, or five. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River, followed by Bellevue.

April 19, 1978 Tape No • 1225 NM - 2 MR.. STRACHAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question for the Minister of Health. Two or three weeks ago I brought up the situation concerning the cost in Labrador to people who are ill and have to be flown out of Labrador,. and I used the maximum example I had which was $1,460, where a stretcher case had taken up three seat on an EPA plane and had to pay the co&t.

The minister at that time said the situation was under review and as I understood it, there are two possibilities; either that the hospital is upgraded to a regional hospital, as he was talking about,and trying to get staff in there, and that is obviously down the road. I am wondering if the minister could give us any results or whether they are going to take into consideration helping to pay the people in the middle?

Because we understand that people who are on welfare or in cases of hardship, are paid; we understand that people who are on high incomes,for instance, and working with }IDT or DPW are also paid; but the people in the middle who are trying to be independent people are the ones who have to pay these high costs. So I am wondering whether the minister has taken into consideration trying to fund some of these high costs, at least part of it, if not all of it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

The problem to which the hon. member alludes is a very serious problem and it is not confined to residents of Labrador only. You will find it all over ~~e Province and in fact all over the Nation. People who are removed from any given area to hospitalization on the emergency basis, at least as far as Newfoundland and Labrador is concerned, we have~I suppose,probably the best air ambulance and road ambulance service in existence anywhere. People who are referred from a given hospital to another hospital,say,in Labrador to the Island, or from the Island part of the Province to Nova Scotia or to Toronto or Montreal

April 19 , 1978 Tape No. 1225 NM - 3 HR. 11. COLLnlS: -or to th~ Uni.ted States, for that matter- if it is not of an emergenc:y nature then of c:ourse they are required to pay their own transportation c:osts. I can apprec:iate the hon. llli!lllber's c:onc:ern about thf\\ saw-off or· the dividil!.g line between .wha_t is c:ommonly referred to as the _ilidigent person. and the working poor and spmetimes there is only a few c:ents involved t .here.

I c:an tell the hon. melllber that the whole matter is being reviewed and.,as I indic:ated to h:im last week, the best solution we see to the programm:e is to be ab.le to develop the proper types of llll!dical se,:vic:es in any given area. That would c:ertainly reduc:e the need for transporting people to another area. I would c:ertainly be willing to disc:J,I$s it with him be~use we want to get bis input i.J;lto it as well. We c:an all identify the problem. SoJUetimes the solution to the problems,of c:ourse,are more diffic:ult . . but it is a c:onc:ern with llS and we do bope to ·be able t_·.

APRIL 19, 1978 Mr. H. COLLINS: of the Province. ~·e l·•ill nursue. :~. NOLAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NOLAN: MR. SPEAKER: AN RON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NOLAN: Tape 1226 PK ·• 1 to provide better services in the Labrador

section And I think that is the answer, the solution which Mr. Speaker, ORDERS OF THE DAY It being Private Members' Day­ Mr. Speaker. Does the hon. member have a point of privilege? No, Sir. I meant the hon. member for Conception Bay South. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If I may,with your permission I would like to address the attention of the House to this morning's Daily News , April 19, and on page 3 we have under the headline "Speaker's Office To Control Phone Bills", and I do not want to get into any kind of a debate one way or the other on this matter. Mr.

Speaker, I merely raise it now because in addit;on to the inaccuracies that were tabled here in the House yesterday, the Daily News has now done us the honour of bringing in their own inaccuracies, and I hope when they are informed of the corrections that they will give the correction or corrections the same prominence that they have given the item that "they have here on page 3. In my own case, for P.Xample, I notice opposite my name and my alleged credit card number- MR. DOODY: that article? MR. NOLAN: SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. NOLAN: Speaker. MR. DOODY: SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR.

NOLAN: Excuse me, are the credit card numbers shown in Yes. Yes. I will glady send it over to the hon. minister, Mr. Then the numbers should be changed. Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, I hate to interrupt! But in the item ., c

April 19, 1978 Tape 1226 PK - 2 Mr. Nolan: from _Tile Daily News I am now credited- T was yesterday with $36.41--r ar. now credited with $3,224.9~. and I- AN RON. MEMBER: That is more like it. MR. NOLAN: -did not make that mumber of calls overnight, Mr. Speaker. So therefore I ask The Daily News to please correct it. And it is up to any other members where there might be inaccuracies opposite their names,perhaps they might also want to draw to the attention of the newspaper in question any inaccuracies that might be involved. Other than that I have no complaint, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. F.

ROWE: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to draw this out, Sir, but essentially on the same matter of privilege: I yesterday was credited with $3,332.55, and today I am credited with $36.43. So I would just like to bring this to the attention of the House,Sir, and ask the appropriate newspaper to make the correction. MR. NOLAN: permit me? MR. SPEAKER: MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, if you would be good enough to The hon. member for Conception Bay South.

May I also draw to the attention of The Dailv News and to the hon. the House if they would be good enough to inform us, the Premier, the House Leader opposite, and all of us,who our new colleague is, G. Gosse, MHA, credit card number 018-0174, $646.33. Now Hho is that. ~·r. Sneaker? MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: I was just going to make a suggestion, Mr. Speaker, that the proper documents be forwarded to The Daily News and they make the corrections or it is going to take all afternoon for everybody to explain their own points. SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR.

SPEAKER: Hear, hear . On a point of personal privilege, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for LaPoile.

April 19, 1978 Tape 1226 PK- 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I think the most important point, Sir, that has come out of this whole matter is the fact that not all of the credit cards, but a substantial part of the credit card numbers of members have been published in the newspapers, which means now that it would be very easy for anybody in this Province, if they wanted,to use a combination of numbers to find out the members' credit cards and use their credit cards. So I do not know how we are going to deal with that matter, Mr. Speaker. I think we should all be issued new credit cards. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! Before calling the motion,just in case perhaps some bon. members were not here at the very beginning when I did I. .. mention that the tele"hone company has been instructed to cancel these credit cards and to issue new ones. These are no longer I operative because obviously the numbers are public knowledge. With respect to inaccuracies, all I can say ~ s that the media do have access to- · I understand, did in fact get-a copy of information that was tabled. Once it is table~ it is I ·r accessible to the media.

I understand they did in fact get a copy of it, and what happened thereafter, of course, I do not know. Motion 5 the Adjourned Debate . The hon. Leader of the Opposition had adjourned the debate. MR. W. ROlolE: Mr. Speaker, I adjourned the debate the last Private Members' Jay on the amendment nresented by the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall), a gentleman who in his usual partisan fashion could not resist the

April 19, 1978 Tape 1227 EC - 1 MR. H. N. ROI~E: temptation to use what should be essentially non-partisan, what should be a motion which shouid go through the House in unaltered form and have the unanimous support of the House, He could not, of course,resist the temptation to move an amendment which got rid of one of the recitals.

Now, Sir, the main motion has to do with the development of Labrador and Labrador's resources, and as I indicated the last day, Sir, the last time we spoke on this motion, in the field of resource development I consider the salvation of this Province, Newfoundland and Labrador, to lie in two fields; one would be the rational,optimal development of the fisheries around the Island and in Labrador,bringing the fishing industry from its present value of something over $100 million a year - $120 million/$130 million a year value up to $1 billion a year, which according to studies and expert opinions can in fact be don·e if the right moves are taken.

And of course, one of the dangers under the present administration is that the wrong moves are being taken and the right moves are not being taken. And we will have a debate on that when the next motion on the Nordsee proposed takeover is debated as well.

The other salvation, Sir, for the Province, not pie in the sky, but realistically, is the rational, sensible development of the Labrador resources including,first and foremost, the hydro development of the Lower Churchill and the other five rivers flowing from Labrador into Quebec and the other basins as well, and getting back our fair share of the value of the Upper Churchill power currently worth to the Province of Quebec some $800 million or more per year, one half of which, at least, this Province should be getting on a yearly basis. That move has to be made as well, Sir.

April 19, 1978 Tape 1227 EC - 2 MR. W. N. ROWE: We have to have a government which has the courage, the fortitude,to take the right moves. Pull the switch, I said last time, Sir, if necessary - not necessarily pull the switch, but pull the switch if necessary to make sure we get our fair share of the value of that power for this Province. AN RON. MEMBER: pull the switch. MR. W. N. ROWE: linaud~bie) I wish the hon. member had a switch I could pull. I would do it, Sir, with alacrity. Mr.

Speaker, the other important thing about this resolution is that we are talking about the development of Labrador resources not as they have been traditionally developed- mainly for the benefit of other parts of Canada, other parts of the United States, for people elsewhere_ but to develop Labrador's resources for the use of the people of Labrador and the people of Newfoundland.

And, Sir, the resolution states that the strategy should include developing the hydro resources as a source of power for the industrial development of this Province, particularly Labrador, and for our Province's domestic and commercial use with any surplus power being made available to other provinces of Canada on a short-term, recallable basis. Surely everybody can agree with that, Mr. Speaker.

And we also talk about the development of a fully serviced, fully fledged port, Port Labrador on the Labrador coast,for obvious reasons - we do not need to get into details on that anymore-and the processing within Labrador of the Labrador raw materials, not shipping everything out of Labrador, hydro and raw materials for processing elsewhere, but do it in Labrador. And, Sir, also we mentioned the assurances that the native peoples and the settlers in i

April 19, 1978 Tape 1227 EC - 3 ~R. !L N. ROHE: Labrador,and the people who would settle in Labrador , obviously, if suc h a development were to take place, assurances to these people that these developments will take place only after consultation with people living there and consideration of the methods to protect the environment in that most delicate part of our Province and most beautiful part of our Province. Those are the main points, Sir . And the hon. the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) never got to these points, these important points which can be, c .. t '\' J

April 19, 1978 Tape 1228 DW - 1 MR. 1-! .N. ROlo!E: with the developr-ent of the fishery and some other developments as well, the salvation of this Province. Never got to that, }'r. Speaker; could not see past his partisanship, !·'r. Speaker; had. to rise in his place after his colleague the member for Naskaupi district (J.Goudie) and other members and the Premier himself had already stated publicly that they were going to unanimously support the Opposition in this resolution. They were going to go along with us, }lr. Speaker, on this resolution. After th~s was _Publicly stated, the member for St.

John's East (H.¥arshall) had to get up, Sir, break party ranks,and make an ammendrnent which shows his true partisanship and his inability to see aroand partisan matters and deal with the real substance and problems facing this Province. A point made in the

preamble to the resolution, ¥r. Speaker, is that the Government of Canada and the party supporting the Government of Canada presently,and I would submit after the upcoming federal election,that party and that govern­ ~nt has indicated that they are prepared to take these bold new steps with regard to the development of the last frontier left in Canada of great hydro energy,a great resource development. The government is prepared to do it, Hr.

Speaker, and that point has to be made publicly, Because owing to the partisanship and the kicking out and lashing out of members opposite against the Government of Canada at every opportunity to make a fe'" political Brownie points which they have failed to make in the eyes of the people of this Province, owing to that attit•1de, l[r. Speaker, He have not gotten as much from the confederation we have with Canada as we ordinari!y might have gotten.

We have not, we have not got it, Sir.Because instead of in a ?ard-nosed, sensible, man-to-man fashion sitting down with the Government of Canada and negotiating things and policies and solving problems facing the Province,what ue have, Sir, is a political statement made. If something does not materialize overnight the ¥inister of Financ~;}linister of Justice will rise in his place, Sir,anrl he will say the Government of Canada is to blame. Other members in the government ..

April 19, 1978 Tape 1228 DW - 2 HR. W.N. ROWE: every second day will rise in their place, _Hr. Speaker, and say- MR. HICKMAN: Lassard said if anv man cl'!n- e>ot <'- CO"" a~ --~,.t Jetter? MP • ~·1. N • Rm-IE : Let me give the hon. minister a letter. Which of these Cabinet ministers stand ont in your mind for doing a good job, ¥r. Speaker, in the Province? And then the ~inister of Justice's name is mentioned here,and he is among the highest_. And what do you think, Mr. Speaker, what percentage of the people of this Province oolled believe this minister is doing a good job' He is one of the h5~hest. Sir. A.~ RON.

ME}<]!ER: Ten; MR. W.N. ROWE: A little higher then ten. MR. NEARY: Twelve. MR. W.N. ROWE: A little higher than that. MR. NEARY: It cannot be any higher than fifteen. MR. w. N. ROl-lE: You are getting warm now, Mr. Speaker. 17 per cent ofi the population think that that minister is doing-and he is r; one of the top ministers~ In other words, Sir, 83 per c~nt of the population do not think he is doing a good job.That does not necessarily mean they think he is doin~ a bad job,but they do not think he is doing a good job. So if I were that hon. minister- What about his own constituents? MR.

FLIGHT: 87 per cent (Inaudible). MR. W.N. ROHE: Well,his highest-it is interesting ··his highest percentage is in St. Jchn's area,rhat is what brings it up, Sir, to 17 per cent.In the area-·not in his own constituency-but in the area in which his own constituency is located,less than 12 per cent think he is doing a good job as a Cabinet ministe_r. MR. FLIGHT: V.'hat? MR. NEARY: Resign, resign! MR. W.N. ROWE: This is one of the top ministers, Sir, and he has the gall, Sir, to heckle and bicker in this Bouse of Assembly. I I .I

.\p'dl 19 ' 1975 ! a e 1228 DW - 3 _MR. RICKMAN: Mr . S ~ eaker, on a point of order. I a,!!k that the lion. gentleman. to table the document to whjc 1 h he just referred and read from . SOME HON. MEMBERS.: Oh, oh! MR. HICKMAN: He is oblig4ted to under the rules. MR. NEARY: He did not read it. T!1e hon.gentlelnan did not read it. MR. HICKMAN: You will have to do it, MR. W.N.ROWE: I was referring to notes, Mr, Speaker. '1-lR, PECKFORD: No, he took it out and said, "I have a letter." I said talking of letters. I have notes - MR. FLIGHT: If he tables it you will all be ashamed.

MR, HICKMAN: Is it the apple salesman you are talking about , Mr. (;oldfarb? '1-lR. FLIGHT: I,f he tables it you will all be ashamed;. only you are ashamed now, '1-lR. W .N.ROWE: I will table it, Sir, in due e<>urse. That hon. membeT did not even rate, Sir, unfortunately. Now the minister of - what other ministers? There are no other ministers in the House, Sir. MR. PECKFORD: You walked into it, 'Bill'. You walked into it. I .i • ' I ~ I ' ·r . ~ i "I. ,. I I i; '

April 19, 1973 Tape No. 1229 Al'l-1 J1R. I?. RQT..JE: Oh, ~r. S-peal~er! There is one of the leadership candidates over there. ~1R. NEARY: What did he do? Two per cent, is it? ~. ril. Rmvr:: No, no! liR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Is the hon. member speaking on the point of order? A."ll HON. ~ER: Is that '·That it was? "R. w. Rmm: That '~as not a point of order, ~~r. Speaker . l'R. SPEAKER: Order, please! I will rule on it. To my knowledge the han. member read and quoted figures from a document and I feel it should be tabled. SOME HON. li.E:"BERS: Hear, near! ~r.

Speaker, I have no document in my possession, Sir, which I quoted from any figures. I have some hand- written notes which I have made myself and - MR. J. CARTER: We need the documents. :1R. W. ROIVE: Sir, I have not read from any docu~ent. ~IR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To my knmdedge the non. member read from a document stating certain - V,_R. NEARY: A few notes in his inside pocket. ~!?... F. ROHE: That is a new one. AN HON. ~MBER: Do not table them. I am not going to table them. I have nothing to table! I referred to a few notes. NoH I can table every thin!!; on my desk here. }fR.

NEARY: Table what is on mine, too, so I can get rid of it . ~. W. ROHE: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry - HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have made a ruling that the documents read ~y the han. member be tabled. If he wishes to challenge ny ruling he may do so. MR. \J. RO\VE : I do not have ~,ything to table. Al~ RON. !:IEI1BER: Table your cheque book. Give him a blank cheque, boy. !ffi.. H. ROIVE: Mr. Speaker, speaking on a point of o~der. ' .... v

April 19, 1978 Tape ~o. 1229 .AH-2 }'R. \</. ROlffi: I hope tha~ Your Honour is not making a mistake in this regard. I have referred to certain notes which I have, I have.referred to this, I have referred to my memory. I have nothing to table. If I was reading from a letter and saying that it allegedly came from something or other, Sir, I could easily - or name somebody or said I had a letter or '.ras reading from a newspaper, I am reading from a few notes in my pocket or a few notes here, I mean, I have nothing to table. I am sorry, I have nothing to table. l~. HIC~·!A.'l: Mr.

Speaker, may I just refresh the han. Leader of the Opposition's mind. He opened his remarks by saying "Speaking of letters, l~r. Spearker, I have a letter -" and he pulled it out. SOME RON. ~ffi~1BERS: ¥R. SPEAKER: St. John's East. l'R. l>'ARS?.ALL: No, no! Order, please! The han. member for On the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Now, ~·!r. Speaker, these are the precedents of the House and - if I could have Your Honour's attention. SO'ffi HON. ~ffi~·!BERS : Oh, oh! MR. !1.1\~Srt..-\LL: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order.

The han. gentleman '.rhen he is referring - when he was speaking in debate, referred to 'vhat vras said, what is thought by the people of Newfoundland, he quoted a percentage - the Minister of Justice - and he was referring to a document which he had in his hand. And I refer Your Honour to Beauchesne, page 134,

Section 159. And the authority is undoubted, ~!r. Speaker. Documents t'tlat are referred to in debate in this House must be laid before the table of the House. And I refer you to this authority,

Section 159 (3) - perhaps Your Honour may Hish to - although Your Honour has already made a ruling - if my

interpretation is correct perhaps Your Honour will wish to adjourn after hearing this and consider it, but it is a very important: point. "It has been admitted that a document which has been cited ought to be laid upon the table of the House, if it can be done without injury to the public interest. The same rule, however, cannot be held

April 19,1 978 Tape No. 1229 AH-3 MR.M.\B.SHAAL.: to apply to pTi.Vate lette:r ·s and lllelllOJ:anda. On the 18th of May, 1965, the Attorney-General, on be:lng asked by M:r. Ferra:rd i.f he would lay up.on the table a written s.tatement and a letter to which he had r~ferred on a previous day i.n answering a question-" and then it .goes on, But the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that if a document bas b.een quoted i.n this )iouae it must be laid upon the table of the House if it can be done witbout injury to the public interest.

Now, the bon. g.entleman was referring to some document, s~ d~cument which apparently had certain statements in it relating to some opinion,wbat have you,or otherwise with respect to m.iniate'rs in this House, members of this House, , and not only would that not be .. I

April 19, 1978 Tape No. 1230 NM- 1 MR. MARSHALL: injury to the public interest but I would say it would be very much a matter within the public interest that this information should be known. Now,you know,the rules of this House are not here for the

interpretation of members as they see fit. If a member stands in his place in this House and he reads from a document, he reads from it and he is really the guarantor as to the authenticity of the document itself, and he is responsible for it, and that is the reason why this rule is set down. It has been enforced time and time again, that where a member refers to a document in debate in this House it has to be laid on the table of this House.~d I would ask that the rule be enforced in this case and the hon.

Leader of the Opposition, who was obviously referring to a document, he quoted from a document at the time, be required to lay it on the table of the House so it becomes public knowledge what he is talking about. MR. NEARY: We will lay the member on the table of the House if he keeps that up. SOME RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. W.N. ROWE: We are on another point of order now, MR. HICKMAN: It is not a point of order. MR. W.N. ROWE : Well he raised it as a point of order . Now I would like to know what citation it was that the hon. member referred to, Mr. Speaker? Sir. MR.

HICKMAN: Page 134, paragraph 159, sub-paragraph (3) and also sub-paragraph (5). UR. W.N. ROWE: Okay. It has been admitted that a document which has been cited ought to be laid upon the table of the House if it can be done without injury to the public interest. The same rule, however, cannot be held to apply to private letters or memoranda. Now, Sir, I have received ~orne private memoranda from various sources concerning the popularity of this minister. In my own good time I will make it public. I have already made some of it public.

April 19, 1978 Tape No. 1230 NM- 2 MR. HICKMAN: That is right. MR. W.N. ROWE: I cited some information from this private memoranda, Sir, but I have it by memory only. I have a note scribbled down here, Sir. You know what it says, Sir? It says - MR. HICKMAN: It is a wonder you did not preface it by saying, "speaking of a letter I am without." MR. W.N. ROWE: "Hickman - seventeen per cent, Sir." That is what I said. I apologize for mentioning the hon. gentleman's name. But, Sir, I scribbled down a note based on a private memorandum, which I do not have in my possession, which indicated that the hon.

Minister of Justice was considered by seventeen per cent of the population to be do~ng a good job. That is what I mentioned. A private memorandum to me, a private memorandum is not a public document. It does not fall within this rule here. As a matter of fact it falls within the rule that I• the same rule however cannot be held to apply to private letters or memoranda:' I received a memoranda from somebody else, completely outside of this House, indicating how unpopular the most'popular minister of this government is, how unpopular he is.

Seventeen percent tb~nK he is doing a good job, twelve per cent in his own district. Now, Mr. Speaker, if I am required to table my memory or a scrap of note that I may h~re have on my possession, you know, I think we are lowering the dignity of the House to say the least, lower than even the hon. minister's popularity has already brought us. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for St. John's East. MR. MARSHALl.: Not so, Mr. Speaker, not so.

The hon. member was referring,as we all know, which has been quoted before in the press yesterday and on television, to a memorandum which he has in his possession, name some poll or some documentation that came to him which related to the popularity and/or otherwise of this government, and he referred to it. It could not have been out of his own memory. He quoted figures. They correspond with what was there before the press. It cannot be deemed to be, Mr. Speaker, I ·I -i

April 19, 1978 Tape No. 1230 NM - 3 MR. MARSHALL: it caiillot be deemed to be other than a document. It cannot be deem.!!d to be in a private nature, be~:ause it is not a correspondence that is private to the person doing t.he letter itself. It is a document to whiCh he ref.erred,and if you go on further in BeaucheJJne you will see ''The point of order that a member should lay on the table, a da~:Uillent which he quotes, should then be taken when reference is made to that doc:Wl!ent,'' And reference was made, l'.r. Sp.eaker, to a docWllet1t.

And the fact that members in this House get up and refer to a document, and may not have tabled it in the past, does not mean that thi$ is not a r~quiremerit. It is one of the rules by which this Legislature operates and surely of all people, the Leader of the Opposition is going to comply and comply with that rule that is e1111:rounded into our rule:;. c i j, I r . .I .. f ,~ ,, ' ,· r ., .. f. i

April 19, 1978 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Tape 1231 PK - 1 MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, this is a serious situation we have on hand here, and it is a matter of

interpretation by Your Honour. And two points have come out. MR. MARSHALL: Not so, not! MR. F. ROWE: And I say, "Not so, not so!" to the hon. member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall). Sir, Beauchesne,

Section 159 (3), page 134, says, "The same rule, however, cannot be held to apply to private letters or memoranda". Now, Sir, the fact of the matter is that this is a private document that has been provided to the Leader of the Opposition to which he referred by memory. A private letter, document, memorandum or whatever you want to call it, it is private. And Beauchesne says quite clearly, "The same rule, however, cannot be held to apply to private letters or memoranda". Now, Sir, the bon. Leader SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. F. ROWE: If I could be heard, Mr. Speaker! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. F.

ROWE: There have been many cases I can remember in this House, I cannot pinpoint the date, but I can remember sitting here over the past five and a half years where bon. members have read from, actually read from letters. And when this point of order came up they did not have to table the letter, not on the clear rule here, but based on the fact that the member simply stood up and said, "I did not read the letter," whether it was private or public, "I simply referred to it." Got off the hook on that easy way out.

But here it states very, very clearly, "The same rule, however, cannot be held to apply to private letters or memoranda." Now, Sir, this is clearly a private memoranda or document which has been provided to the Leader of the Opposition, and I submit, Sir, that he does not have to table this particular piece of information if he desires not to.

April 19, 1978 Tape 1231 PK ~ 2 MR. PECKFORD: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (Mli. YOUNG): The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: There is no way, Mr. Speaker, that the Leader of the Opposition, nor the member for Trinity Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) can weasel out of this situation by trying to throw a red herring across the House as it relates to privacy, Mr. Speaker. It is common knowledge now since yesterday that the Leader of the Opposition has made public AN RON. MEMBER: No. MR. PECKFORD: - the document to which he referred.

The saliant information in the document to which he refers. So if the han. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde is going to try to insist now this late in the day that this is a private letter, a private memoranda between somebody not named to the Leader of the Opposition, well then it is a bit late in the day to so do, because the Leader of the Opposition has already indicated the contents of that so-called private document. Number two point, Mr. Speaker, is on the question of what happened in this session or in sessions before now as it relates to han. members reading documents.

The only time I remember it coming up was in my own particular case last year when I was reading from a document as it related to legal opinions given to the government as it related to the Upper Churchill contract. And on that score the Speaker ruled that it was not in the public interest to so table that document. It was the only time that it occurred,to my experience in the House, and hence the Leader of the Opposition has no alternative but to table the information which I am sure he is going to do right now. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG) : Order, please!

I feel that I have heard enough argument, and to my knowledge the last reference to a piece of paper that the han. the Leader of the Opposition showed out that he read from was not the piece of paper I asked the han. gentleman to table. I would ask the han. member is he willing to table the document that he quoted from? I .I ·I

April 19, 1978 Tape 1231 PK - 3 MR. W. ROWE: No, Sir, because it is against the rules of the House to be required to be tabling notes and so on. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG) Order, please! I have no alternative. I would like to adjourn the House for about five or ten minutes so that I can get the information that I need. RECESS ..

April 19, 1978 Tape 1232 EC - 1 NR. SPEAKER:(Mr. Young) Order, please! I would like to quote from Beauchesne; Item 3: "It has been admitted that a document which has been cited ought to be laid upon the table, if it can be done without injury to the public interest. The same rule, however, cannot be held to apply to letters or memoranda." In my opinion, the han. the Leader of the Opposition was quoting from a document, but the han. member in discussion says that he was not quoting from a document, but informed the hon. House that he was quoting from notes and I have to accept the hen. member's word.

The hen. member has five minutes left and I would ask him to continue. MR. H'. N. ROWE : Your Ho~our has put me to a lot of work now for nothing, because these are the notes that I quoted from. But I did take the liberty of going downstairs, Sir, and getting the document itself from which I had made some notes, the document I am citing from. And, Sir, it shows the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs in answer to the question which of these cabinet ministers HR. HICKHAN: HR. SPEAKER : 11R. HICKr!AN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order has been raised.

The resolution that is presently before this House is a motion to amend the resolution by striking out one of the recitals as it deals with Labrador, and I submit that under the rules of relevancy, the popularity of the hen. the ~inister of Municipal Affairs is not in any conceivable way relevant to the developing of Labrador hydro resources or a fully serviced, full-fledged Port Labrador or processing within Labrador of raw materials or assurances that these developments will proceed; nor is it at all relevant c

April 19, 1978 Tape 1232 EC - 2 MR. HICKMAN: to the national convention of the Liberal party, which is the motion presently before the House, because I have heard it on very good authority that the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs is not a Liberal. MR. W. N. RO!.JE: (Inaudible) HR. HICKMAN: We would not have him anyway . just wish he would not. And I do submit that the rules of relevancy beyond all reasonable doubt if the hon. gentleman, the Leader of the Opposition, were permitted to pursue along the lines of his rather nefarious and totally unattached - MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Young) Order, please!

I feel chat the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was not irrelevant and I would ask him to refrain from quoting from the documents. MR. W. N. RO~o/E: Sir, the reason why this government is in such disrepute in the Province partly relates to its Labrador policy. And, Sir, if there is any doubt about the fact that this government has fallen down on the job with Labrador policy, all we have to do is refer to this document - MR. NEARY: Table it! Table it! MR. W. N. ROWE: - this document, Sir, which indicates quite clearly, Mr. Speaker, that - AN RON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: order. MR. l-1'. N.

ROWE: the Premier? - 9 per cent - SOME HON. MEMBERS: ~!R. l'l. N. ROWE: - point of order. No, we have ruled on the paine of How many people are impressed with \lha t? - of the population are very impressed with Premier Moores. MR. PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: MR. PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order has been raised. I did not hear Your Honour make a ruling on the point of order just made by the Government ,I

April 19, 1978 Tape 1232 EC - 3 MR. PECKFORD: House Leader as it related to the re~evancy of the talk now that the Leader of the Opposition is making, and if that has been so ruled, Mr. Speaker, I would wish to submit an additional point of order. MR. SPEAKER : (Mr. Young) I did make a ruling that the han. the Leader of the Opposition was not irrelevant - AN RON. MEMBER: vTas not? MR . SPEAKE?..: - was not irrelevant and I would ask him to refrain and he agreed, and I asked him to continue. AN RON. MEMBER: So continue it. PREMIER }!OORES: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER : A point of order.

PREMIER MOORES: Maybe the han. the Leader of the Opposition would agree that it may not technically be a point of order that the l,goo sample survey we have, we could table them both the same time and have a debate on the subject. MR. l~. N. ROl~E : ~es, I would like to see that. }!R. SPEAKER: I feel that is not a point of order, but - MR. W. N. ROWE: That is right, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: - more or less a matter of opinion or an explanation. HR. NEARY: Table the document. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. N.

ROWE: Anyway, Sir, the point I was making is that this government had no Labrador policy until they were dragged kicking and screaming into having such a policy, emulating hours after we presented it to the Liberal convention in Ottawa and then a private member's motion in this House was required, Mr. Speaker, to get this government to mention anything about the development of Labrador. And, Sir, when I have an opportunity to wind up the debate on this motion, Sir, I am going to indicate by quoting from this document, now

April 19, 1978 Tape 1232 EC - 4 MR. W. N. ROHE: a public document because it is getting to the press. MR. NEARY:· Are you going to table it? MR. W. N. ROWE: If His Honour requires me to table it, I will certainly table it. MR. NEARY: Does the member have to table the document, Mr. Speaker? MR. W. N. ROWE: What I did not want to table the first time, Sir, was some notes which I had scribbled down here, so I went downstairs to get the document itself, which I do not mind tabling. UR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Young) I am sure the hon. member is reading from the document, ~·e knows the House rules well enough to table it. ~1R.

W. N. ROWE: I do not mind tabling it if members require me to table it. HR. NEARY: -Yes, table it. MR. W. N. ROWE: Sir, when I wind up this debate on Labrador policy, what I shall do, Sir, is give some tangible evidence, scientific evidence as to the unpopularity of this government for a variety of reasons. One of the reasons is its bankruptcy of ideas with regard to the proper development of Labrador.

And the unpopularity of the government is clearly evidenced by this document, Sir, which I have here, and which I will gladly table because I intend to cite from it to show that the government is, in fact, very unpopular• I~ l-.p.,t for 'under twenty-five' voters: Rowe 40; ~oores 20~ is most concerned about the issues. All of these things, Sir, are very important, I think, in the public interest.

The party most likely to vote for -'If there were a provincial election tomorrow which one of the following parties would you be most likely to vote for?' And of those answering, Sir, Liberal or Conservative - 58 per cent indicated they would vote

April 19, 1978 Tape 1232 EC - 5 ~!R . !~ . ~ . ROI~E: Liberal, 42 per cent indicated they would vote Conse r vative before, Mr. Speaker, two weeks before the abysmally bad, disastrous Budget brought down by the Xinis ter of Finance, two weeks befo re that when the Premier thought be was riding high. Sir , that is WhAt r::J>e scientific poll shows. HR . NEARY: He hit an air pocke t. MR. W. N. ROI·IE: And one of the reasons for it, Sir, is that Labrador was not even mentioned in the Throne Speech,or mentioned casually, nor was it mentioned except casually in t his blueprint. And the evidence then , Sir, of this abysmal I I .I .. ;-: I

April 19,1978 Tape No, 1233 AH-l MR. W.ROWE: neglect of a very important part of our Province shows up in this scientific report here, Sir, which shows that the Province has very little respect or feeling of popularity - MR., SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. W.ROWE: - for the particular party which now forms the administration. 1 will go into further details, Sir - 1 know my time is up;_ I will go into further detail when I wind up the debate, MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, it give me - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order has been raised. MR.

NEARY: Your Honour made a ruling there a few moments ago that any documents that were referred to in this hon. House would have to be laid on the table of the House, My hon. friend the Leader of the Opposition referred to a document, Sir, and 1 would ask Your Honour - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The page is here from the document. SG!E HON, MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. AN HON, MEMBER: Can I speak to that point of order, HR.. SPEAKER: I feel it is not a point of order. MR. PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to have the opportunity to speak again in this debate.

There is an amendment now made to the resolution, a very important amendment in my view. It has been the contention of the Leader of the 6pposition, the member for Twillingate (Mr.W.Rowe) that we have or the hon. member for St, John's East (Mr. Marshall) has by this amendment introduced partisan politics into an otherwise non-partisan resolution. Now, Hr, Speaker, how the Leader of the Opposition can make such a charge when in one of the recital~ nf ~is resolution there is mention off the Liberal Party of Canada and ... ·I f ·I . , I ' I. I· · I' I :l .. I t·

April 19,1978 Tape No. 1233 AH-2 MR. PECKFORD: thereby can contend that his resolution is non-partisan,completely and absolutely escapes me. If the Leader of the Opposition uses that kind of logic to try and win debating points in this han. House,I should say that the quality of debate will continue to degenerate, Because what the han. member for St. John's East 01r.Marshall) has done, he has done the very thing that the Leader of the Opposition should have done in introducing the resolution in the first instance and that is kept all parties out of it. Now remember that the member for St. John.~s East (Mr.

Marshall) did not say, "Let us delete reference to the federal government or the Federal Liberal Party and replace it with the Federal PC Party and its avowed positions as it relates to Labrador development." No, he just asked for the deletion of any connection with any political party. It is interesting, Mr. Speaker, to note that it is the Federal Progressive Conservative Party that has said talking about policy,that it will turn over jurisdiction to the offshore oil and gas resources to the Province of Newfoundland.

Now if the federal government, the Federal Liberal Party which is now the Government of Canada,wants to do something tangible to show how willing they are to allow Newfoundland to develop its resources whether they be on land or in the seabed,the most concrete way that that can be done today is not through a tokenism resoluton at an annual meeting of that political party, of that national political party; if they really want to show how interested they are in giving Newfoundland and Labrador a chance to develop,do not do it through a general motherhood resolution at a national political convention which forum deals with just about every kind of resolution under the sun in every political party.

It binds them to nothing, there is no obligation on the Federal Cabinet, upon the federal government, upon the House of Commons or anybody else to follow through on that resolution. If the Liberal Party of Canada is serious,I challenge that party and that government to submit to the claims now being put forward by the Government of Newfoundland and ., ,.

April 18 , 1978 . Tape No. 1233 Ali- 3 MR. l'ECKFORD: Labrador as it relates to offshore resources. There is the way they can do it now. Let us not talk about tokenism, let us not talk about resolutions to a natioual political party, let us put that kind of so-called interest and concern that Mr. Trudeau and the Federal Liberal l'arty has for Newfoundland into action now before they call their election.

Let them say to the people of Canada 1 let them say to the people 6f Newfoundland today. tomorrow.that we will f.orget about this court ca'se.that we will forget about th.e jurisdictional dispute and that we will allow the Province of Newfoundland ... to have some say over the development of its offshore resources, ., !" j;

April 19, 1978, Tape 1234, Page 1 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: because at the present moment, Mr. Speaker, the federal government's position on that very vital issue is that it will give Newfoundland and Labrador no real say in the development of those resources. So, Mr. Speaker, this whole business about the silly resolution, this foolish resolution, this tokenism resolution by the federal Liberal Party means nothing. It is absolutely useless, it is tokenism.

And if they were really serious about wanting to help Newfoundland, if they were really serious about wanting to devel~p Labrador there is one • .,ay you can go about that it; you can stop the silly, foolish resolutions which which go through every political national convention 1 whether it be Liberal, P.C., NDP, Communist or whatever 1 you can stop that and not use that as a reason for trying to prove that the federal Liberal Party has some great interest in Labrador. They can put it into action now. Right now! Today! Tomorrow!

That is the way we would like to see the federal government translate its so-called concern. We would like to see them translate it now into action sothatwe can get on with the business of getting offshore resources developed in a rational, sane manner and in tune with the priorities of the region and of the Province. That is the way it can be done 1not with this tokenism resolution.

Not only then does the Leader of the Opposition swallow that hook, line and sinker because the Leader of the Opposition happened to get a meeting with the Prime Minister which, of course, totally overwhelmned him and therefore he thinks that because this is a resolution coming out of the national party convention that it is suddenly going to change the face of Labrador. Because he is so overwhelmned with the Prime

April 19, 1978, Tape 1234, Page 2 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: Minister and had a meeting with him, big deal ': He had a meeting with the Prnne Minister, that is something, I know. That is something! That is not goingto get us action in Labrador, · that is not going to get us a fair deal on offshore resources, this tokenism. And the Leader of the Opposition then to stand up and to say, We want a non-partisan resolution, Mr. Speaker. We want a non-partisan resolution and then to introduce the political situation into it of one party in Canada. That is non-partisanship? What the member for St. John's East (Mr.

Marshall) did was to legitimately introduce a resolution with no political party involved in it. He took it out of the hands of the politician or political party and put it squarely in the hands of reason, in the hands of common sense and let it stay there. That is why, Mr. Speaker, I wanted to get up today and support the amendment as put forward by the member for St. John's East. Mr. Speaker, let us just look at it.

Let us just look across the way here for a second to that hon. crowd on the other side, this hon. crowd that now has all the great love, oh; their hearts are swelling for joy and pride to get at developing Labrador. The Leader of the Opposition, the present Leader of the Opposition 1 the member for TWillingate (Mr. W.N.Rowe), member, cabinet minister in the former Liberal administration in this Province for a number of years: the member for Fogo (Capt. Winsor) who was a cabinet minister in the former administration; the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary), a cabinet minister in the former administration; the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan), all involved and very much a part of

April 19, 1978, Tape 1234, Page 3 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: the decision making process - MR. NEARY: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman was just reciting ministers in the former administration and I resent the fact that the hon. gentleman left out his colleague,the Minister of Justice, - the Minister of Finance, the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Hickman). I resent that, Sir, the hon. gentleman was in the Cabinet. He may have been a non-member of that Cabinet, insignificant, ineffective, but he was there in body.

He might not have been there in spirit but he was there in body. He sat to my left for over two years. The hon. gentleman sat to my left hand incapable of making a decision, incapable of giving the government - MR.SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: - the legal advice that it needed, but the hon.gentleman was there. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. If any hon. gentleman could imagine anyone getting to the left of the hon. the member for LaPoile and still survive, then he has a very vivid imagination. The rule in law is called confess and avoid.

I confess that for three horrendous years I sat in a cabinet not of the Progressive Conservative making, and about one year of that, as I recall, the hon. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary), who had been waiting years and years to be invited in 1 came in. Other men, Sir, with great distinction- the hon. the member for Port de Grave (Mr. Dawe) was the Minister of Municipal Affairs, as I recall it, and oh, there were many others in that cabinet.

And I do not know if it is a point of order, that when the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy starts referring to those who had served, the multitude who had served in the =abinet of the previous administration that h~_is in breach o f

April 19, 1978, Tape 1234, Page 4 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: one of the rules of this House when he refrains from giving the entire list, because if he does there is a great list starting with the hon. Leslie R. Curtis,and going all the way down through. It is up to Your Honour to direct - I I . .

April 19, 1978 Tape No. 1235 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: I think I have heard enough learned submission on this point of order. ~here is no point of order. MR. PECKFORD: · Thank you, Mr. Speaker, very much. All I was trying to do was to indicate that the predomenence of people who were closely associated with policy making in the former administration reside now on the opposite side from myself. And, Mr. Speaker, this hon. crowd over there, the hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary} who made a shambles of every portfolio he was in. MR. NEARY: That is not true. MR. PECKFORD: It was a public disgrace at the time.

Everybody recognized it as such. This hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) can now piously stand on his feet and talk about how much he wants to do for Labrador,and the han. member for LaEoile knew nothing more about Labrador than I know about the other side of the moon. made a shambles of every portfolio he was in. He was a disgrace not only to his own colleagues, he was a disgrace to the people of Newfoundland. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! All hon. members on both sides who have not already spoken will have an opportunity to speak,but that opportunity will be exercised one at a time. MR.

PECKFORD: The hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) was a disgrace. I remember time and time again, as a private citizen in this Province, involved on the periphery of politics, listening He to people in his own party,as well as people in other parties, ashamed of the hon. gentleman, ashamed of the hon. member for LaPoile, because of his incompetence as a minister. I heard of people who, all around the Province at that time - (I~udible). Fisheries scandal (Inaudible) c

April 19, 1978 Tape No. 1235 NM- 2 MR. PECKFORD: - who were trying to recommend to the then Premier of the Province, trylng to recommend to the then Premier, "Get rid . of that hon. member from the Cabinet. He is incompetent." MR. NEARY: We got ministers MR. PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. MR. PECKFORD: The hon. member for LaPoile seems to be awfully sensitive now and will not allow me to speak -I in silence. ·! MR. NEARY: I will let the hon. gentleman, if every now and then I MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please: There is no doubt every hon. gentleman has the right to speak without interruption. I ask hon. ·! members to observe that. MR. PECKFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is getting rather touchy now. We are getting back home now, Mr. Speaker. When we start to indicate on this side some incompetency that might have occurred over on the other side, all of a sudden now, ~fr. Speaker, we get it thrown across the House, we get the innuendo thrown across the House. MR.. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I still cannot speak in silence here and a point of order is in order. MR..

SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no disputing the fact that every hon. gentleman has the right to speak without interruption,and when he insists upon the observance of that right, and points it out to the Chair, then obviously the Chair must require its observance. So I do draw this to the attention of hon. gentlemen. MR. PECKFORD : I remember clearly the kind of development opportunities that the han. the Leader of the Opposition, the hon. member for LaPoile and others in the then government of the day did for Labrador. I remember them very well, because I was in Labrador at the time.

I spent some time in Labrador and I was in Labrador at the time. And I know the kinds ,. of things that they tried to do for Labrador. To cite one real,stirling,

April 19, 1978 Tape No. 1235 MR. PECKFORD: classic example, Mr. Speaker, I remember clearly in a place known to the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) , in a place called Mary's Harbour, Labrador­ which this administration is now going to put on the map, NM- 3 and other places in that area in fishery development, in rural development- I remember that there was some concern being expressed by the government of the time that they had better do something in a number of places in Labrador if they wished to get re-elected. Now, Mr. Speaker, there was no great policy as to fishery development.

There was no great policy as to trying to get some secondary processing from primary resources. There was no great policy to try to assist, through some Rural Development scheme to help the people develop a realistic and worthwhile development there. But rather it was decided, even though there was no road around the community, it was decided it might be a real good idea, it might be a fantastic way to buy a few votes or whatever, it might be a ~ood way to develop the Coast of Labrador by putting a bridge across the river. ru<..

NEARY: (Inaudible) MIL PECK.FORD: By putting a modern, in those days, fairly modern bridge across the river to join up both sides. Now, Mr. Speaker, it just so happens that most of the people in Mary's Harbour, Labrador, at that time, as is even true today, went back and forth across the harbour in boat. They had some small paths there but they did not bother to go across the bridge. The bridge was a white elephant. I do not know, I guess today it might have some use and needs to be repaired if it has not been.

This was the kind of economic development, this was the kind of industrial development that was practiced by the hon. gentlemen opposite, the hon. gentlemen who now profess to have such a love for that great land called Labrador.

April 19, 1978 Tape 1236 PK - 1 Mr. Peckford: This is the hon. group that want to form the next government of this Province. And the han. the Leader of the Opposition, if he had his way, and he w~s around long enough in those days, would have had them all resettled in any case, Mr. Speaker. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

PECKFORD: And this is the group now that piously stand on their feet and try to pretend that 1966, 1967, and so on no longer exists, that their previous record in economic development, that there previous record in industrial development, that their previous record in rural development, in Labrador, is one to be proud of. They have not changed, Mr. Speaker. They have not changed they still have their spots. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I cannot be selective in application of the rules, and the point about the han. gentleman wishing to speak without interruption was made a couple of times, I think it was made specifica]lv toward the han. gentleman for LaPoile, but as I say when the rule is made, the rule is there for everybody, and I think I have to draw to the attention of the han. gentleman behind him, and to his left, and to the han. member for Windsor- Buchans as well, The rule applies for all han. members on both sides. MR. PECKFORD: Now, Mr. Speaker, to continue, it was mentioned by the han. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) in his addre~~ last week or the week before when he was speaking on this resolution or on the amendment to it, that the han. Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources in Ottawa had offered SO per cent of the cost of doing a deal on the Gull Island clearing. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is totally untrue. In no way,shape, or form, in writing, or verbally has the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources in Ottawa offered that kind of a proposal. That is not true. What I have already indicated to this han. House on a number of occasions was, Mr.

Speaker, to just review and to make sure it is clear in everybody's minds is that this Province said to J .I l ~ I ,. · ' \S· ,. I, ' .. f i

April 19, 1978 Tape 1236 PK - 2 Mr. Peckford; the federal government, Federal government you have $60 million that you are going to spend in Canada Works programmes in this Province. We do not think that all of the money in those Canada Works programmes is spent in a wise manner, number one, and number two, spent sometimes on projects that are really to the benefit of the people in whose areas they are going to be built. So federal government we still recognize you have a bit of a political problem here.

These Canada Works programmes are controlled to a large measure by your members and so onJ so we are not saying scrap completely the Canada Works programme 1 we know you would not agree with that in any case. However, of the $60 million that you have available, at your disposal, would you consider, would you just even consider using $10 million of that $60 million.

Take the other $50 million and use it as you are going to use it, as you have used it in the past, as you are using it now, but take $10 million of the $60 million, just $10 million one-sixth of it, just take $10 million of the $60 million, and put it aside just for a major resource development work programme for the Gull Island clearing. That is what we asked for, Mr. Speaker. That is what we asked for. We were told at the time by the bon. the Minister for DREE, we were told at the time by the hon. Minister for the Environment, we were told at the time by the hon.

Minister for Energy>Mines and Resources what a fantastic idea, tremendous idea. lfuy did we not think of it ourselves? And we put forward then on paper, several weeks later, that proposal. There was no talk, Mr. Speaker, of contributing $8,000 per job, therewas no talk of fifty-fifties, there was no talk of seventy-five-twenty-fives, ninety-tens, in anyone's favour or against, or one hundred per cent, it was perceived as an opportunity to perform an experiment on make work programmes in this country.

That is how it was perceived, that is how it was developed, and the federal government procrastinated for months on end about that project. I ,I b. f l

April 19, 1978 Tape 1236 PK - J Mr. Peckford: Now if the Federal Libe ral Party, Mr . Speaker - ~IR. NEAR'! : (Inaudible). MR . PECI<FORD: - if the fed .eral government wants to do something for unemployment in Atlantic Canada, and wants to do something about unemployment in Newfoundland and Labrado r, they can either put u'o or shut uo. DR. l"ARRELL: I:Iear, hear ! MR. PECKFORD: They can take part. only part one-sixth oi the expenditur ,e that they are going to spend in any case, it is not extra money and put it into a particular resour ce development act:ivi ·ty, and try it out.

And if when the $10 million is spent and 300 to 400 jobs are created, it did not work to the satisfaction as it was supposed to work, ::hen you cancel it. You would not be any worse off than now witL«,,..e of the mon.ey that is being spent. A lot of it, I agree, is being spent a lot better than it was two or three years ago . I agree. r t it would have put 300 to 400 loggers to work for thre ·e or four years if it was stretcl>ed out over a three year period, $10 million a year . That would take the total cost of the Gull Island clear.ing into consideration . That would have done it .

There was no talk of splitting it. There was no talk of 50 per cent . And it lay in Ottawa for six or eight months,

April 19, 1978 Tape No, 1237 NM- 1 MR. PECKFORD: and now we have had to go back in response to a programme that the federal government offered-seven months later-which deals with providing 8,000 to 10,000 jobs on a project which is going to cost $25,000 to $30,000 a job. In order for us to get $2 million we have to spend $4 million, And we do not have that kind of money, that is why we went to them in the beginning, that is why we thought they agreed to it in the beginning, not to be told six or seven months later that this is no longer the way we are going to look at it.

They wanted to have their cake and eat it too, to use the full $60 million on Canada Works as they saw fit and yet to come back in a way that would perhaps be perceived by Newfoundlanders, who do not know too much, that is all, it is an insult, to come back then with an offer which was supposed to camouflage and diffuse the whole issue so that they would not be perceived as opting out of a good idea. That is what they did, Mr. Speaker. That is what they did. They used another programme which ostensibly, superficially looks grand, offering you $6,000 to $8,DOO per job.

What is wrong with you Newfoundland you will not accept $6,000 to $8,000 per job? Only, Mr. Ottawa, that per job costs down there are going to run $25,000 or $30,000 a year because of the terrain, because of the environment, because of the climate, because of the kind of activity that you are performing down there, that is why. So when you scale it down, when you get at the guts of the issue we see what happened on Labrador development.

And yet the hon. gentlemen opposite want us to believe that a pious resolution with motherhood clauses in it, passed by the Federal Liberal Party, is suddenly going to be the panacea for Labrador power development, for Labrador economic development. Absolutely crazy, Hr. Speaker, it holds no wei2ht at ;oJ.l, If the federal government were eager and serious about helping us in Newfoundlann wtth development in Labrador, they could agree tomorrow morning, without hurting them one little bit, forgetting I .I

April 19, 1978 Tape No. 1237 NM - 2 MR. PECKFORD: their $11 billion deficits, and forgetting the eighty-six or eighty-seven cent dollar,and forgetting the million ·people unemployed, forgetting all the rest of the things that the Liberal Party of Canada has succeeded in doing to this Country over the last decade. It is interesting to note that that same Liberal Party of Canada is the party which said ten or eleven years ago that they were going to unify this Country, number one, that they were going to bring some just society into thi~ country. And what have they done, Mr.

Speaker1 In a decade they have disunited the Country. The Country has never been more disunited than it is today. The very Mr. Trudeau from French Canada who said he was going to unify it1 this is the man who has seen the dollar degrade and now this is the party which says, in a resolution to its convention, that it is going to give some attention to Labrador. This is the party. MR. W.N. ROWE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. MR. W.N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, my point of order is that the minister is not now being relevant.

He would be more relevant if he read The Evening Telegram, and read the headline on page three whi~h said, "Labradorians Frustrated With The Government." MR. PECKFORD: That point of order is facetious and foolish. MR. HICKMAN: Not only is it not a point of order, Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: ------ Lang and Doody, sign up an agreement. MR.. HICKMAN : - he is taking advantage of the point of order and I would ask that Your Honour take the necessary action, whatever that is. There is no doubt that the rule of relevancy applies and the subject under debate is the deletion or not of a

preamble to this resolution on Labrador. I think the hen. gentleman's remarks extended for some period over the merits, or lack thereof, of the

April 19, 19 78 Tape 1238 DW - 1 MR. SPEAKER: Liberal Party or the Liberal Govern- menta pe.rformance during the past eleven years may have well and, in fact,did stray from the subject. So the hon. gentleman's remarks do have to be related to the subject under discussion. MR. B. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I was just trying to point out .~ the weakness of the Liberal Party of Canada in developing or unifying this country and I was trying to compare that with their same weakness,their similiarities,and same weakness in trying to do something in Labrador.

We have been a part of confederation since 1949 and the National Government has a commitment both jurisdictionally and otherwise to do something for creating jobs and unifying this country, and one way that it can be done is through the proper economic development of various regions. In any case, Mr; Speaker, if I am allowed to proceed. 1r.

Speaker, I indicated a couple of times in the last number of weeks that contrary to what the Opposition,who did nothing for Labrador for a long while when they were in the government,contrary to their state- ments that we had not put forward a comprehensive plan for a transportation system in Labrador which could enhance the economic development of Labrador, I suggested on a number of occassions that we had put a proposal before DREE so to do,to develop a plan for Port Labrador which would help expedite the whole business of trying to get some of the resources to a central location for processing,for shipping out,for export of the finished product this kind of thing.

I have been questioned a number of times, Hr. Speaker, about the validity of those remarks and I want to table, put on the table of this House a copy of the original proposal that was put before DREE for the Port Labrador study. There are other back- up technical,private technical considerations that enter into it, Mr.

Speaker, that prevents me from providing some of the additional informationalthough I would only be to willing to give it to hon. members opposite privately because it contains cost data which is competitive,cost data which would expose the group that did some of the back-up work for us and expose those prices-nod we should not 1 of course,do that-but I shall table the

April 19,1978 l1R.B. PECKFORD: Tape No. 1238 W-2 original document. Now this, Mr. Speaker, is for all and sundry to see that the Newfoundland government did­ it was in a letter from the Deputy Minister of ~lines and Energy to the DREE. people on September 23,1976 -put a proposal on Port Labrador on the table which was rejected. And secondly, in 1977 to re-submit it with a back-up technical proposal giving cost data precisely, minutely what we were going to do in that so-called study that we wanted to get underway on Port Labrador. Not to be undaunted, Mr.

Speaker, not to feel defeated and deflated by those two rejections we have now, Mr. Speaker, within the proposals being put before DREE for the subsidiary agreement on Labrador, we have put that proposal back to them again through that other medium by going through the proposal that is going up from the Department of Rural Development through the Intergovernmental Affairs people. So this is the third now that we are back to the DREE people on this whole proposal of Port Labrador, MR. F. ROWE: Will you table the letters in reply? MR.

B.PECKFORD: I have not got the rejections but the reason I have not got the rejections was-- MR. HICKHAN: Sure if the hou. gentleman asked for it. Ask :~ if he asked for it. HR.PECKFORD: If the han. gentleman is asking for it I shall table it. So, Mr. Speaker, when I get a page of someghing- if somebody will take this proposal and lay it on the table of the House. Now, Mr.

Speaker, talking about what this administration is or is not doing for Labrador and as it relates to comments in the Evening Telegram of today's date from the Labrador Resources Advisory Council, I mean, let il go on record that this government is funcii;;g the Labrador Resources Advisory Conncil, that in meeting• with them yesterday and in-their annual report we are consulting and co~operating with the Labrador Resources Advisory Council on almost every given day.

Secondly, Hr Sn"'""'""r", it is this government that through the Department of Rural Development which has, and we will get into this tomorrow, a total , •

April 19,1978 Tape ~o . 1238 OW- 3 !iR • .S.PECKFORO: budget of around $16 million close to 60 per cent of the budget of the Department of Rural Development is going to Labrador , to one region of this P-::ovince and so it should . Over 50 per cent of the total 11umber of dolla r s in this Department of Rural Development will be going to Labrador . We have developed a fairly comprehensive proposal that is now before ORJ::J:: for over $100 million to be spent in the Labrado r area to, as Mr. Flower's of the Labrador Resourc~:; s Advisory Council says, change tile face of Labrador. This is what we are doing .

We have establish ed a very real presence through-the former minister has a lot to take credit for here - a p r esence in Labrador and put a man ther e ~th clou t, an ADM in the I I 1: .. t 1 I· t. ! '

April 19,1978 Tape No, 1239 AH-1 MR. PECKFORD: from St. John's. We have taken pretty major steps. It can be argued, Mr. Speaker, that we have shown our lack of faith in Labrador by cutting the budget of the Labrador Resources Advisory Council from $100,000 to $50,000. Let me only say there,}~.

Speaker, that they still have $10,000 or $11,000 left from last year to spend which will bring it to $60,000 number one, number two,they have a proposal before the government right now for another $30,000 to take the DREE proposals that we have put together before DREE and go to every community in Labrador to get the input from the communities ~d then come back to us with a si~e proposal, if you want to call it :I that, and we have agreed to let t~em have a look at that proposal and to give us their input. The question of the $30,000 will be resolved before another seven days are out.

So we are trying to do what we can to tune in with the real needs and ~spirations of the Labradorians, the people in 1abrador, with the Inuits,with the Eskimos, with the Indians, with the settlers and with other peoFle in Labrador, and we will continue to do what we can. If the people of Labrador and the Labrador Resources Advisory Council are frustrated,so am ! and so is every Newfoundlander in trying to get this Province developed in a sane and a,rational manner so that we will get something out of it.

It is a frustrating business, It is not a matter of the Labrador Resources ~visory Council being frustrated with government or government being frustrated with the Labrador Resources Advisory ·' Council, it goes beyond that, Mr. Speaker, it goes into the range of !· ! how do you take a large land mass of 114,000 square mile~ or whatever l it is,and a few thousand peop1e,and a government in St. John's that is strapped fo