·:1 Volume XL Tuesday ~ .... ~ c'lt. .. -'!; ..... _L,.,._o lo tz81, #. ": ~.. ~ "-r"f .. "'~'\..':"li .... )\ l'"t. 't2f0 ¥~,. :• ., ' ~-~-¥ "' ,/ .... J :.o..._ ;;. > ::-::~ ... 1 5 Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY . OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas . ;~,; ,-;.: Number 12 14 May 1985

The House met at 3:00 P.M. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise o~ a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: ·A point of privilege, the hon. the member for Bonavista South. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I am hoping to be able to establish a prima facie case of the breaches of my privileges as a member of this hon. House of Assembly. I will do so and at the same time table a letter I sent to the Premier of the Province this morning, which he was notified of yesterday.

Unfortunately, he is not in the House today, but the way the rules work I have to bring to the attention of the House at the first opportune time any breach of privilege. Mr. Speaker, I can best explain the bre?ch of my privilege by reading the contents of a letter given to the Premier, to yourself as Speaker, to the Minister of Justice (Ms Verge) and the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) • I understand the Deputy Premier has seen the letter and has read same. I will then file the letter, Mr. Speaker, in the House, naturally, after quoting from it and make it public.

Since my appointment as Minister of Transportation in 1975, I commenced keeping my personal ministerial files, adequately locked and secured, in a number of filing cabinets. These files were taken with me when I moved from the Department of Transportation to the Department of Tourism and L584 14 May 1985 Recreation, from there to the Department of Forestry and from there to the Department of Fisheries. All of these filing cabinets were adequately locked and secured on the fifth floor of Atlantic Place in the Department of Fisheries with my former ministerial secretary, Mrs.

Gertrude Pike, who is still working in the Department of Fisheries, holding the keys. Yesterday,. on May 13, when I wished to obtain information from these files, particularly as it relates to the ongoing RCMP investigation in connection with matters pertaining to the offshore surveillance and foreign overfishing, I was shocked, Mr.

Speaker, to le ·arn that all of my personal ministerial files, including my personal ministerial fisheries files, including Cabinet documents, including documents to P and P, including documents to Treasury Board, including documents involving the Resource Policy Committee of which I was Deputy Chairman, and other records regarding fisheries policies, fisheries issues, my personal opinions on fisheries policies, matters pertaining to a whole range of fisheries issues, in these files had been destroyed. Upon speaking with my former ministerial secretary, yesterday, around twelve noon, Mrs.

Pike informed me - that she had spent days - I repeat, days; and evidence in the Department of Fisheries and employees there tell me it was more like weeks destroying files, doing nothing else but that day in and day out, taking my files out of my cabinets, which were locked with a bar going down through the handles of the filing cabinet fastened with a padlock, plus the lock on R584

the cabinets - she was holding the keys, - and she did nothing else for days but take my files out of these cabinets, put these files through a shredding machine, and filed the remains in garbage bags which were taken away for disposal. Mrs. Pike also confirmed to me that prior to the destruction of any of these files the matter was thoroughly discussed with the Deputy Minister of Fisheries, Mr. Ray Andrews. This leaves the clear impression with me, Mr. Speaker, that the instructions to enter, to sort through and then to destroy my files were given by the Deputy Minister, Mr.

Ray Andrews, despite the fact that he has now confirmed to me in three different telephone conversations that he made no effort whatsoever to contact me to discuss my files, the removal of the filing cabinets, or the disposition of these personal ministerial files from the Department of Fisheries. After having Mrs. Pike as my ministerial secretary during the years I served in Cabinet from 1975, I know she is the kind of person who would never destroy a file of such importance, government documents, without having instructions from a high authority in the department, or someone in authority.

The breaking into of my personal ministerial files and the destruction of same by Department of Fisheries employees, Mr. Speaker, is, I tell the Premier, a very, very serious matter. Upon learning yesterday of the destruction of these files, I immediately brought this matter to the attention of the Minister of Public Works and Services, the hon. Haig Young, to ask him if his department was aware of any L585 14 May 1985 removal of files from the department, or if any of his officials were notified with regard to destruction of the files. Mr.

Young confirmed to me no one in his department was notified and there was no communication from Fisheries to the Department of Public Works. I then, of course, immediately brought the matter to the attention of the hon. Minister of Justice (Ms Verge), discussed it with her on the phone r and asked her to bring the matter to the attention of the Premier. I also, at the same time, called the Premier. I could not reach him so I talked to the Premier's Assistant, Mr. Sullivan, and told him all the information I am now putting forward. I have also discussed the matter at length by telephone with Mr.

Ray Andrews, and he has confirmed to me that my files were being destroyed over the past number of months and that .a number of these personal files were destroyed since election day, April 2. That was confirmed to me by Mr. Andrews and also confirmed to me by my former ministerial secretary in the department, Mrs. Pike.

My present secretary, who works with me in the Government Members' Otfice, has confirmed to me as well that there were no conversations with her from the Department of Fisheries, there was no consultation, there was no notification, no contact or communications regarding the removal of my filing cabinets from Fisheries, what I was to do with them, none whatsoever regarding the files that were sitting in the Department of Fisheries on the fifth floor of Atlantic Place. I discussed the matter with the R585

then Minister of Fisheries, the hen. Joe Goudie at the time, and Mr. Goudie informed me yesterday that he was not aware at any time that my personal ministerial files were being destroyed. However, he did say, he indicated to me he will inform the RCMP accordingly, that when he returned to the office a number of days after the election campaign, when he returned to the Minister's Office, Department of Fisheries, he ind~ed did see this Mrs. Pike using the shredding machine with massive documents and constantly, constantly feeding the documents through the shredding machine. Mr.

Goudie confirmed that to me yesterday afternoon. Of course, Department confirm to so. And other employees of the of Fisheries can also the RCMP that this was I am saying to the Premier, as I am saying to the House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker, surely we must all agree that these kinds of files with individual, political, personal comment, and also government documents, not only are the responsibility of individual ministers over the time they serve as ministers, but are also strictly and solely in the ownership of these individual ministers, is owned by the individual persons.

And when a minister ·leaves the Cabinet, or a member of this House leaves politics, these kind of files can be taken with them forever and a day, they are privately owned. I think members in this House today who are former ministers can attest to that, that these documents are strictly privately owned by the individual who has sworn for life the oath of secrecy by serving in the Cabinet. And based on that, Mr.

Speaker, I L586 14 May 1985 want to repeat that there were many personal notes regarding fisheries matters, particularly over the last four years these files, and these files and notes were kept in these filing cabinets, notes which I would not want, in many cases, departmental employees to even see because they were not of the nature that they should see administering and running a department.

And because of the fact that -these files were, as I said, strictly personal property, and because I have not received a satisfactory explanation, Mr.Speaker, from departmental staff who were involved in the destruction of these files, I feel that my privileges are, indeed, if not violated are being impinged upon as a politician and a member of this hon. House.

Because these documents can, if I want to use my own personal documents, sure, I may not be able to use in a public ·forum the contents of Cabinet papers which are secret, Planning and Priority papers which are secret, Treasury Board documents which are secret.

Information I gathered over the years, my views on policies, my views on issues in fisheries, which are important and resulted from meetings with delegations in my office, including meetings with delegations on a matter now before the public and now before the RCMP through an investigation, ·all these kinds of records, which I could use in this House of Assembly and outside the House of Assembly as a politician, now I cannot go back to these records to verify the things I said and the things that I did at the time I was Minister of Fisheries. Therefore, Mr.

Speaker, my rights as a politician are being impinged upon. Mr. Speaker, I am almost R586

willing to say there have been seriously violated, because I could not be a minister without being a member of the House of Assembly, I could not become a minister without sitting in this han. Chamber, and, therefore, my privileges by sitting here have now been seriously and I say again, possibly violated. impinged upon Mr. Speaker, Now, Mr. Speaker, I say that this information I have referred to the Premier, this letter, I want to table in this han. House so it is public. My files are gone but I want to have assurances that this kind of action cannot repeat itself to any other member of this House of Assembly.

That is the key issue. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, in considering my case, I certainly hope, Sir, that you will consider it a prima facie case and that you will arrange to take the necessary actions to ensure that no such impingement upon the rights of a member of this House ever takes place again. Thank you. MR . BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, we have a very serious matter raised by the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan), the former Minister of Fisheries.

I think that it is one of the most clear-cut examples that I have seen, in the years L587 14 May 1985 that I have been in the House of Assembly, of a prima facie breach of the privileges of a member of this House. Now, one might say this is something which occurred with respect to the papers of a minister. However, M:r. Speaker, we are all aware that except in very rare and unusual circumstances a minister is drawn from this House the mirdster is a in carrying out his minister he is linked to this House and, as a matter of MHA, and duties as inextricably of Assembly, fact, Mr.

Speaker, he is accountable Assembly. this House to this House of And how can a member of of Assembly be held accountable for past performance or how can the administration of which he formed a part be held accountable - and I know the member will not do this - if members of the administration of which he was a part are able to stand up and say, 'Oh, we do not remember what took place on this communication. We do not remember the contents of this particular correspondence because the files have been shredded'? Now, Mr. Speaker, this is not just a hypothetical situation.

If we think back, a few days ago when I was questioning the Premier and asking for the tabling of the very information which I understand the former minister was going to look for in his files, when I asked for the tabling of the correspondence that took place between the former minister and the Government of Canada on the matter of the behaviour of foreign observers, I was wondering why we did not get a commitment from the Premier to table this correspondence. Now, it is very unfortunate that the Premier is not in the House today because the former minister, the member for Bonavista South (Mr.

Morgan), has been too kind, he R587

should not have stopped at the Deputy Minister. Mr. Speaker, I make this statement knowing full well that it is a serious matter to raise, but I raise it, knowing that the deputy minister of a department does not act except with the instructions of the minister and/or the Premier in this type of situation. And we have, as I understand from the member for Bonavista South, the acknowledgement by the then minister, his successor as Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Goudie), that he gave no such instructions. Well, Mr.

Speaker, the Premier of this Province is going to have to give certain assurances to this House with respect to this matter, particularly when one considers that, as I understand the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan), some of these files were destroyed after the election. How could the Deputy Minister of Fisheries know that the member for Bonavista South might not be the next Minister of Fisheries within a matter of days after the election? Nobody but the Premier, Mr.

Speaker, could know that those files would not have been immediately necessary for the member to continue in his position as Minister of Fisheries if he happened to receive - that appointment following the formation of the new Cabinet after the election. So, not only is there a prima facie case of a breach of privilege of the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan), there is a prima facie case of very serious interference by the Premier of this Province with those privileges. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, when one considers that files, when they are contained in L588 14 May 1985 an archive of this nature, are known as the official memory of government, when one considers, as the member for Bonavista South just set forth, that it is virtually impossible to remember all the transactions . on which you engage as a minister, all the details of correspondence, what has happened here, Mr. Speaker, is an attempt to obliterate, to destroy by shredding, the very memory of the then Minister of Fisheries, the official memory, in any case. We now have a situation where the member for Bonavista South is left exposed.

If he is called upon to answer for his conduct during the time he was in Cabinet, either during the course of the present administration, or, as may be the case in the not very distant future, as we have seen in the case of certain witch-hunts carried out by members opposite, in the event of a change of government, Mr. Speaker, it is these files being held by the minister which are his protection, and really his only protection in terms of explaining why he acted in a certain fashion when he acted. And, Mr.

Speaker, that is why these files are the personal property of a minister and that is why, when a member leaves the Cabinet, he takes those files with him. I took my files from the Cabinet of Frank Moores, I took my files from the Cabinet of the present Premier, I have them in my possession, secure, but there are in my files Cabinet documents of the time, whichever, they are my files, my property, and the same privilege was there for the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan). Mr. Speaker, we had a situation in the United States where we had a similar type of destruction of records of government and that was R588

known as Watergate. There are shades of this creeping in in this particular situation - MR. J. CARTER: You are starting to get slimey now. MR. BARRY: - a saltwatergate by the sound of it. Mr. Speaker, I say that where we have such a serious interference with the privileges of a member of this House, in the detail that has been set forth here, we do have a prima facie case established which Your Honour should so rule upon so that the appropriate motion could be taken. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I had not intended to get up and speak on this point of privilege before listening to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition's (Mr. Barry) remarks, because the hon. the member for Bonavista South did a commendable job of doing it and put the position foursquare. First of all, Mr. Speaker, may I just point out that when one raises matters of personal privilege or privilege of the House I think that the procedure is that a prima facie case is to be established and there is to be really no real debate on the substance of the privilege such as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) conducted.

But, be that as it may because he conducted this I just want .to make a few remarks. Obviously the matter raised by the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) is a matter of some real L589 14 May 1985 concern to everybody in this House, including the government. Whether it is or is not a breach of privilege of individual members within the terms of the strict rules of Beauchesne does not mean to any degree that the government and particularly the Cabinet of this Province, will not treat the matter as a matter of very real concern and it will certainly be looked at. But I want to touch, Mr.

Speaker, on the innuendo cast by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has made a charge, really, in this house that the hon. the Premier in effect ordered the papers shredded. The hon. member for Bonavista South did not even indicate it and did not state it, but the hon. gentleman, in his mad rush and his obvious and apparent dislike, distaste and jealousy of the Premier which drove him across the House was motivated to make that particular charge. I want to say categorically, Mr.

Speaker, that . whatever happened - and we will be looking into it - there was no deliberate attempt to obliterate any record of this government. This government happens to stand very proud of each and every scrap of record that it has, and the records kept by the member for Bona vista South consti t·ute a very real part of it. The hon. gentleman gets up with his innuendo saying, the former Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Goudie) did not do it because he said he did not do it, so, therefore, he invites us to think that the Premier ordered it. That is completely without any foundation whatsoever.

It is motivated by the gentleman's meanness of spirit, his jealously - MR. BARRY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. R589

!. MR. J. CARTER: No point of order! SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, no. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A point of order, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: The Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) is now attempting to attribute motives. Let the member get up and say what he has to say without attributing motives. What I have said, Mr. Speaker, I stand by,. that the Premier has a duty to come in and indicate whether or not he gave instructions to the deputy minister. Now that is not innuendo, that is a bald statement of fact. Let us not have any imputation of motives because that can cut both ways.

If the Government House Leader wants to have this House degenerated into a bear pit, that can happen. But let us have the Government House Leader abide by the rules of this House. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, first of all, you cannot raise a point of order when a point of privilege is being considered by the House. I did not question the hon. gentleman's motives. What I was doing was drawing attention, Mr. Speaker, to the consistency of the actions of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL : Now I will conclude. I will not L590 14 May 1985 get emotional and in a great deal of rage, and all the rest of it, like the hon. gentleman did. I will just say this: The hon. gentleman said he took his files from the Moores government, he took his files from the Peckford government, but the best thing, Mr. Speaker, that he removed was his good self from the Conservative administration.

The type of innuendo he has cast in addressing this point of privilege should just go to show what the mettle of the hon. gentleman is, the whole reason for being of the hon. gentleman and, why he finds himself on the other side of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! On that point would like to of privilege, I take that matter under advisement. I would like to study this letter and I would like to study the submissions made today and consult authorities on the matter. I hope to have something further to say in the very near future on the matter.

Statements by Ministers MR. BUTT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment. MR. BUTT: Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement on behalf of my colleague the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Bill Matthews), but, before doing that R590

I know that all hon. members would like to join with me in welcoming back to the Chamber the very colourful and personable member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms). SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BUTT: Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform hon. members of Government's position in regard to the concerns recently expressed by the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council. In a letter of May 13th, 1985 to the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth, the Council expressed its fear that preliminary Budget Estimates do not indicate that the Council will receive the amount of money it had requested for the 1985-1986 fiscal year.

It must be appreciated that government has many competing demands for its limited financial resources, and requests from the Arts Council for funding will be given the same serious consideration afforded to other groups which depend upon government for support. Government is, of course, not in a position to divulge to the Arts Council the amount of money it has awarded for the next fiscal year. All interest groups must wait for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) to bring down his budget, and government will not be held to ransom by any group requiring funding, regardless of the worthiness of their demands.

Government is proud of its contribution to the arts in the Province, and has shown its good faith by continuing to introduce new funding programmes for the arts in a period of severe fiscal restraint. L591 14 May 1985 The Arts Council has also expressed concern that government has not transferred the administration of sustaining funds for drama groups and publishers in this Province to the Arts Council. In the Spring of 1984, government announced that allocations of $100,000 for sustaining grants to the Performing Arts Organizations, and $120,000 for the 1984-1985 Publishers Assistance Programme.

In August of 1984, the Premier and the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth, met with representatives of the Arts Council and, at the Arts Council's request, agreed to initiate discussions between the department and the Arts Council in regard to transferring these programmes to the Arts Council's jurisdiction. This has not been done to date because of strong letters of objection which have been received by the department from recipient groups in regard to the transfer of these programmes. 'l'oday . I am tabling some letters for the information of hon. members, Mr. Speaker.

Recipient groups are concerned both that the Arts Council may not follow established criteria in awarding the grants, and that much of the money assigned for grants may be taken up in administration costs. The Council's budgetary projections for 1985-1986 would seem to bear this out, as it has requested the amount of $27,000 to administer programmes which were administered by the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth last year at no additional expense. Mr.

Speaker, the 1984-1985 budget of the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council shows that 59 per cent of their total budget of $225,439 was listed as an administration cost, with only 41 R591

per cent, or $93,439 being provided in the form of grants. This ratio of grants to administration costs is looked upon with concern by grant recipients who feel that the high administration cost is at their expense. Contrary to the opinion of the Arts Council, government has no evidence to suggest that recipient groups consider its direct administration of these funds as contrary to the principle of 'arms-length' funding. Funds are administered by a Grants Committee which is representative of interested groups, including the Arts Council.

Government must therefore reject the Arts Council's contention that its efforts are directed towards 'undermining the financial and philosophical credibility of the Council with its public' • There is no such sinister plot, Mr. Speaker. Instead, in the face of such strong objection from those groups who· tend to benefit most from the programmes, government has had no other choice than to delay the implementation of its decision.

Government's role is to be fair to all parties involved, and to ensure that the transfer of these programmes, when effected, is made in the climate of agreement and co-operation and not of disharmony as currently exists. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am totally confused to tell you the truth. It does not surprise some people, . I suppose. I am a L592 14 May 1985 rookie.

I had discu$sions this morning with the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council and their mandate, I assume, is to establish itself as a source of funding for arts in Newfoundland. If I may read it, the council is impowered by the act, Bill No. 56, 'to carry on a full development role as advisor, initiator, commentator, sponsor, organizer, director, critic, . fund raiser, promoter, producer, investor, purchaser and contractor.' Now we were just told that ov~r half the budget goes to administrative costs. Well, the budget is very li~tle. MR. BUTT: Fifty-nine per cent. MR. K.

AYLWARD: Yes, 59 per cent - they are not getting very much anyway and that is going to be required to run the place. I was down there this morning, that is automatically going to be done • They are not getting enough money to even distribute basic support and make an effect. MR. DAWE: Government's grant They are supposed own after that. MR. DECKER: is seed money. to find their Oh, excuse me. But talking about established criteria, they have a panel and the twelve members of the executive are established people in the arts.

They are all intending to resign in the very near future because of the interference or the not giving of the mandate by the provincial government. MR. FLIGHT: Political interference is what is it. R592

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. K. AYLWARD: Well, you are either going to have the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council do its job or you are not going to have it do its job. You either take it apart, like will probably happen now - they are just going to give it up - or you put the money in and you let them do it in the way that you set it up. Yoli set it up. You put it there for that purpose. You do that, or I do not know what you are going to do. It seems like you are just trying to have the best of both worlds. MR. TOBIN: What is your suggestion? MR. K.

AYLWARD: My suggestion is let them do their job. SOME HON. MEMBERS: dh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. K. AYLWARD: There will be a lot more questions on this, Mr. Speaker. Thank you very much. oral Questions MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon. the Leader of the Opposition I would like to welcome to the visitors' gallery forty democracy students from the Whitbourne Central High School with their teachers, John L593 14 May 1985 Gosse and Roy Gosse. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) when it was that he first became aware that a decision had been taken to destroy the personal files of the former Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan)? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I shall respond to the question wishing to be very open with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Barry) in all matters, but I would just like to point out that it is a matter of which Your Honour has seized, having taken it as a matter of privilege, and I would have though the Leader of the Opposition, having been a Deputy Speaker of this House at one time, would have known the rules sufficiently enough not to have raised it. But I can say, Mr. Speaker, for what interest it is to the hon. gentleman, that I became aware of it, I believe, yesterday afternoon when the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) advised me of it. MR. BARRY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon.

Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: the R593

Would the Government House Leader indicate to this House whether it is the official policy of the present -administration . to have this sort of systematic destruction of the personal files of a member of a former administration, a former minister of government in this Province? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! I would have to rule that this question is out of order at the present time. It is a matter of privilege and I will rule on that matter later. MR. BARRY: That is a matter of information, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: You are questioning the Speaker! MR.

SPEAKER: I have ruled that matter out of order at the present time. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, with respect to Your Lordship you have ruled that question out of order, but we would like to have an opportunity to speak to a point of order before there is a ruling from time to time. Let me see if I can rephrase the question, Mr. Speaker, or pose another question. Maybe the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) could tell us if there is this intention to systematically destroy the memory of government, should this not have been according to Mr. Orwell, carried out in 1984 instead of 1985?

Did you not miss it by a year? MR. SPEAKER: The han. President of the Council. L594 14 May 1985 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, what a great attempt at humour. Ha, ha, ha. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, it is not the policy of this government to order the destruction of files, as the han. gentleman discovered when. he was deposed from the Cabinet by the electors of Burin-Placentia West, when he was in the Moores~ government. MR. TOBIN: Placentia West. MR. MARSHALL: Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: He could never win Burin. MR.

MARSHALL: And when he left the Cabinet in a fit of pique over not being able to get an offshore deal because we would never get an offshore deal. So, Mr. Speaker, he has his files. MR. BARRY: I wanted a good offshore deal. MR. MARSHALL: I have not heard the han. gentleman define one that is better. The han. gentleman ran away from it because the han. gentleman did not have the courage to turn around and try to negotiate it. Now the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, there certainly is no policy, there never was a policy, there never will be a policy with respect to that.

As I say this government, contrasted with many others throughout our history, is very proud of its records and R594

wants to keep them for posterity. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Government House Leader would tell this hon. House whether he has any ideas about what it is that the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) might have had that members of the present administration would want to keep covered up, would want to have obliterated, would want to have destroyed, would want to have shredded? What does the member for Bonavista South have on members opposite? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: I will answer the question. Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Bonavista South has nothing on the hon. members on the government side at all, and he has no desire to have anything on the government side. I suggest that the hon. gentleman contain his jealousy, his hatred, and his obvious chagrin over the fact that he wanted to be the Premier. Do you remember he wanted to be the Premier as he said it in his campaign advertisements. It was the only policy the hon. gentleman had during the campaign: "I want to be Premier." That is what he said over and over again.

So the fact of the matter is he cannot be premier, he never will be premier, Mr. Speaker, and he should control his distaste and dislike for the present holder of the office who is doing such a good job. L595 14 May 1985 MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that have Orwell' s 1984 for the have Animal not only do we 1984, we have Province, but we Farm for the Cabinet. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) would make contact with the Premier, wherever he might be, and would the Government House Leader undertake to carry out an investigation - so that there will be no time wasted when the Speaker brings back his ruling on the prima facie case - to determine on whose instructions the Deputy Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Andrews ) acted in shredding these files? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I do not even know why I should respond to the question. I have responded.

I tried to respond initially in a serious vein when replying to the point of privilege on the matter, saying that the government does not treat the matter lightly. The government is not prepared to cast innuendoes, as the hon. gentleman did, and insinuations, trying to reflect upon the characters of individuals and people in government, or anybody in the public service or anywhere else. RS95

We just say we take it seriously and we will look into it. I say to the hon. gentleman, no, we are not going to conduct a wholesale investigation unless it is necessary. We will make an inquiry and what have you, and, as I said, the records of this government are here for everyone to see and they will be forever and a day. MR. TULK: Some of them are. records are not. MR. MARSHALL: The Fisheries As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, I think posterity will be very interested to study the records of the hon. gentleman when he was Minister of Mines and Energy, particularly as it affected his approach to the offshore negotiations and with respect to hydro matters. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Tomorrow, May 15, Mr. Speaker, about 12,000 Newfoundland fishermen will be taken off the rolls of unemployment insurance.

We all know that in most of the coastal areas of the Province, ice conditions are such now that fishermen will not be able to get back to their boats; in fact, in my own district of Twillingate - and I carne back from there last night - the ice is right up to the shore , and I think the same kind of situation prevails in most of the communi ties, certainly on the Northeast Coast. L596 14 May 1985 Mr.

Speaker, I asked the Premier a question on May 8 as to what action, if any, was being taken by the government to have their federal counterparts provide an extension for U.I.C. benefits in the event that ice conditions did, in fact, prevent them from fishing. The Premier replied that a letter had been sent to the federal government by the then Minister of Fisheries, Mr. Goudie, on March 12, asking that the benefits be extended. In view of the fact, Mr.

Speaker, that fishing will not get back into full-swing, that the benefits will be discontinued tomorrow, May 15, and in view of the fact that many thousands of fishermen will be denied or deprived of a chance to pay their bills and to buy the necessities of life, will the Acting Premier tell the House if they have received a reply to their letter of March 12, as indicated by the Premier when I asked him the question on May 8? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: I want to clarify, first of all, there is no such thing as an Acting Premier.

There is no such thing as a half-Premier at all. I could never measure up, I could never half measure up to the Premier, or the hon. the member for Twillingate (Mr. w. Carter) for that matter. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: I am very glad to respond to a question from the hon. the member for Twillingate and I would hope that my answer will make him feel R596

a bit more comfortable than he has looked since he went over and sat on the Liberal side of the House. And from the conduct of his leader today, I can understand why he would feel very, very uncomfortable. Mr. Speaker, the question that the hon. gentleman raises is a matter of real concern because of . the ice conditions on the Northeast Coast, the West Coast and Labrador. There has, to my knowledge, been no response received, but, certainly, I know the Premier will be following it up, as will the government. MR. W. CARTER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: the I think the rna tter, Mr. Speaker, is sufficiently serious, certainly to the people affected, the 10,000 or 12,000 fishermen who on May 15, will be without an income, that it should hardly be the matter of a joke on the part of the Deputy Premier. Mr. Speaker, I gather from his answer that there has been no reply to that letter. Am I to assume then, Mr. Speaker, that there has been no further communication with Ottawa with respect to the discontinuation of unemployment insurance on May 15? MR. SPEAKER {McNicholas): The hon.

President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, that is not so, we take the question seriously and obviously it is a very serious matter. But the fact that there L597 14 May 1985 has been no reply does not mean there has not been follow-up. There has been follow-up on it and there will continue to be and we hope we will get some response shortly. As a matter of fact, as I look at the labour flash sheet that the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) used yesterday in the House, it shows that, particularly on the Northeast Coast, unemployment is much higher than it was last year.

And a lot of that, of course, is attributable, as we know, to ice conditions. In April 1984 it was 22.9, and in April 1985 31.2. Certainly-when the ice, hopefully, is dissipated at the end of the month or early in June we will see most of these people back to work again and, hopefully, sooner rather than later. In the meantime, we will be following up the matter and we will continue to pursue the federal government. MR. W. CARTER A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I have to remind the Deputy Premier again that time is running out.

Tomorrow is the last day. Would he table copies of correspondence or copies of any communication he has had with Ottawa in recent days or weeks with respect to this very serious problem? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: I have not had any direct communication myself but, of course, he means the government so I will have to take that under advisement. We are making R597

representations in all areas including this and I do not really know whether it is really going to serve our ends to have correspondence of this type tabled at every instance. So I cannot say definitely that, yes, we will table it. I will have to look at the correspondence and see the nature and the sensitivity of it and what have you. But I will take that question under advisement as well. However, the hon. gentleman can be assured that we are pursuing the matter and we will continue to do so.

As a matter of fact, the Premier is in Ottawa today talking about various matters and I have no doubt that that will be raised as well. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: My question is also to the Deputy Premier. In view of the fact that the ice conditions are creating problems on the Northeast Coast and particularly in Labrador, and is a perennial problem each year, can the Deputy Premier instruct the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Brett) that if there is no extension to the UIC his department should step in?

There is only one more day, as the member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter) said. If something is not done everything will be disrupted and there will be great hardship. Last year, Mr. Speaker, the season was late on the Northeast Coast, was late on the Labrador Coast, and the fishermen ended up making less money. As a result of that they are now starting a new fishing season season and funds are extremely low. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, this is a very, very L598 14 May 1985 serious matter.

I ask the Deputy Premier if he would impress upon Ottawa that while ice conditions for the Northeast Coast are probably serious one year to the next, they are a permanent reality on the Labrador Coast. Could Labrador be exempt each year? Could we have the May 15 date changed? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether we can predict climactic conditions to that extent.

I know that the matter is of concern because of the ice conditions which are beyond everybody's control, which preclude people from prosecuting the fishery. · But I can only say to the hon. gentleman that we will do everything we can to alleviate any hardship which arises as a result of these factors and do everything within our power to see that they be mitigated. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I am glad to hear the minister, the Deputy Premier or whatever he is, say that he is concerned about this situation that my friend from Twillingate (Mr. w.

Carter) has brought to his attention, that tomorrow fishermen along the Northeast Coast, the Coast of Labrador and I guess the R598

West Coast of Newfoundland are going to be without an income. It is not enough for the Deputy Premier, the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) , to sit there and say that there are ongoing discussions. The Premier is in Ottawa today and I understand the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout) is with him - I could be wrong on that. But in any case, if he is, would the Government House Leader undertake to send the unanimous concern of this House in a Telex to the Premier this afternoon so that he can give it to the Prime Minister, presumably, or the federal Minister of Fisheries and Oceans (Mr.

Fraser) or the federal Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Beatty) or whoever happens to be concerned, expressing our concern in this House about the fact that tomorrow our fishermen are going to be without an income? Would he also in that Telex ask that the period for UIC benefits be extended until the fishermen can fish? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr.

Speaker, I want to say first of all that the Premier sat in this House yesterday and the Premier just as much as anybody else is well versed and has been confronted with these problems and concerns and I have no doubt that there is absolutely no need of me running off and sending him a Telex. I mean, he obviously knows. I am also advised, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power) has been in touch with the federal Minister of Employment and Immigration (Ms MacDonald) and she has indicated L599 14 May 1985 that she is and will do to meet the that this affect. MR.

FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: aware of the problem her utmost to attempt concerns and problems particular situation The hori. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, since the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies is in correspondence with the Minister of Employment and Immigration I would like to ask him about this time situation.

It is my understanding that the federal legislation that established the variable rates for entry to unemployment insurance at ten weeks in our Province, because of our employment rate, to larger numbers of weeks for qualification in other provinces, is sunset legislation which is due to end this month,the month of May, and if there is no · change to it the period of eligibility for the people in our Province will now increase and perhaps as high as fifteen weeks will be required in order to be eligible for unemployment insurance.

Since I think all of us can appreciate the devastating impact that will have on us my question is, first of all, is this sunset law still due to come into effect this month? Secondly, if it is, what representation has our government made to the federal government to see that that provision does not actually come to pass in our Province? MR. SP.EA.KER: The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: R599

Mr. Speaker, as on all of these issues - and it appears from the other side of the House that it seems that they want to run the government by Telex or by some kind of a strange new method this government has been doing its work consistently by the Telex method that they seem to favour so much, by letters and in personal contact with the federal ministers in Ottawa.

For the first time in my time in politics you can at least talk to federal ministers and explain a problem in Newfoundland, because they never seemed to be able to listen before, especially . the Liberal colleagues and Liberal friends of the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) '· who never paid any attention to the problems of Newfoundland. We now have persons in the ministry in Ottawa who are willing to listen to us about the problems which we have which are very specific to Newfoundland.

As it relates to the UIC problem mentioned, we have talked to the federal minister many times, and we have her assurances that no major changes are going to be made to the UIC system without full concurrence, full deliberation and discussion with the Province, unless all the provinces have lots of time to be able to have input, so that we can show our individual problems in Newfoundland as the Western Provinces can for their farmers. There are not going to be any major changes. The legislation which runs out this month is not going to be changed unless this Province has a fair input.

Assurance has been given to us on several occasions by the federal minister and certainly as in the question earlier, there is no need to try and conduct business by Telex because this government and the Government of Ottawa can do our business in a L600 14 May 1985 much better form. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The han. the member for St. John's East Extern. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Social Services. Last year while the boarding house situation in St.

John's was raging, a registered nurse was hired to monitor the conditions in those boarding houses, the quality of care, nutritious diets, and so on. Information came to me over the weekend to the effect, Mr. Speaker, that his department has taken this position and assigned it to another component of the department. I would ask him to tell the House if this is correct? Also, Mr. Speaker, if it is, I would like to know what system is going to be put in place to monitor those conditions, a commitment which was given by the department last year to the Community Services Council and to the City of St. John's? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I am going to have to take that question under advisement. I was not aware that her employment had been terminated. I will have to take it under advisement and I will get the answer from the han. member tomorrow possibly. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. the R600

member for St. John's East Extern. MR. HICKEY: Would the minister, when he checks this matter out be good enough to inform the House also about the number of boarders presently occupying hotel rooms in the City of St. John' s and surrounding areas, and the cost of such services? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hen. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, obviously I would not have the exact figures in my head.

I know the cost is considerable and I know that the number of people probably is more than it should be • Again, I do not have the exact number but I will get that information for tomorrow. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I address my question to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe). On the morning of March 29 of this past year there was a press conference attended by the hen. John Crosbie and the Premier of this Province. At that press conference a new highways agreement was said to have been signed.

The highways agreement was $180 million, the largest in the history of this Province. This House was told, Mr. Speaker, on May 10 that a road's agreement amounting to $181 million would be signed within two weeks. Then again, Mr. Speaker, yesterday, I believe, the Premier referred to L601 14 May 1985 $20 million. In view of these discrepancies, I would like to ask the Minister of Transportation are there indeed three agreements? Do we have $361 million plus the $20 million? Is there an agreement, Mr. Speaker? If there is no agreement, I should like to ask the Minister of Transportation when will one be signed?

MR. SPEAKER (McNichola s}: The hen .. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I will make an attempt to answer the hen. member's question. I have not heard the question asked in that sort of a way before. It was alluded to in the House by the member for Gander (Mr. Baker) · last week, but it goes to show just how inattentive members opposite are to announcements that are made. It was confirmed in a press conference between our Federal Minister, Mr.

Crosbie, and the Premier, sometime in late March that there was an agreement on two phases of a three-pronged request that the Province had in to the federal government for a number of months, overlapping at least one other federal administration that had been in place. It was a request at that time for pretty close to $500 million - about $470 million. It involved a request for funding for the Trans-Labrador Highway, a request for funding for the Trans-Canada Highway, and a request for funding for secondary roads. The Premier and Mr.

Crosbie announced that an agreement would be drawn up and signed that would be allocated for two of those projects, one an amount of money that would be earmarked for the Trans-Labrador Highway, and the second part of it R601

was an agreement that would be signed relative to the expenditures on the Trans-Canada Highway. Those two amounts total $181 million. That amount is firm, and that is the agreement that is in the process of going through the necessary budgetary processes, both federally and provincially. That is the one that has been agreed upon, it is ironclad, the only thing left to be done with it, of course, is the necessary signatures and financial approval to go ahead and call tenders for the first year of that agreement.

We are ready, as a department and as an administration, to call those tenders as soon as we can get the necessary financial alithori ty, both from the federal government and the provincial government, and we should have that authority within the next ten days to two weeks. MR. SIMMS: Good answer! MR. DECKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A supplementary, the member for the Strait Isle. MR. DECKER: han. of the Belle Mr. Speaker, I want to say to the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe) again that on March 29, in that press conference, the Premier said that $81 million would be spent this coming Summer, and that that level of spending will be maintained throughout the life of the agreement. I understand the life of the agreement to be six year, and six time $81 million is $486 million. Is there, indeed, $486 million? Will the Minister L602 14 May 1985 of Transportation explain to us how you can get $486 million from an agreement which was, I believe, at one time $180 million? Or was it $181 million, or was it $20 million? There is something wrong with the mathematics, Mr.

Speaker, and I would like for the Minister of Transportation to explain to this House just what is going on with this highways agreement. Was March 29 just something to do with politics because there happened to be an election going on at the time? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, again I doubt very much if I am able to explain to the hon. member the mathematics involved, nor, in fact, the philosophy involved in transportation negotiations in this Province or anywhere else. · I think I adequately explained it.

Even my colleague, the newly seated Minister of Forest Resources and Lands, indicated that I gave a good answer, albeit a long answer, to the first question. I think his initial question, as well as the one he just asked, was adequately answered the first time I spoke. MR. HISCOCK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A supplementary, the hen. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: My question to the Minister of Transportation is, seeing that the $181 million agreement was going to be signed, during the election campaign an argument broke out in Red Bay and the PC candidate for R602

the district of Eagle River said that money for the Red Bay road was set aside, and another PC candidate also said it was set aside. In view of the fact an agreement has been signed in the am~unt of $181 million, can the minister of Transportation tell this House whether the PC candidate will be able to make good on his promise that the money for the Red Bay Road -is part of that $181 million, and that the Premier will back up _ that candidate? Or was the PC candidate leading the people of Red Bay down the garden path? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, it is very, very difficult to get it through, but I will just go through it very briefly again - as briefly as I can - and try to do it in the kind of baby talk that hon. members opposite will understand. I indicated a year and a half ago, at least, the Province put forward a proposal through the Department of Transport in Ottawa, a three phase proposal, or a three prong proposal.

One dealt with the Trans-Labrador Highway, which is a very specific project that started about two years ago~ the other dealt with an ongoing project that we have been involved in for the past eight or nine years with regard to trying to improve and upgrade the Trans-Canada Highway that was inadequately constructed back in the 1960s. The third phase was a project for secondary road reconstruction and building that normally would have been handled under the old Department of Dree before they got out of the business.

When that department L603 14 May 1985 dried up and became the Department of DRIE, the responsibility for secondary roads went to the Department of Transport. We have agreed upon two of the phases in that road proposal, one dealing with the Trans-Labrador Highway, one dealing with the Trans-Canada Highway, and we are still carrying on negotiations with regard to the secondary roads programme which, Mr . Speaker, involves proposals for roads on the Straits as well as it involves proposals for secondary roads right around this Province. MR. HISCOCK: So there is no agreement. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please!

The time for Oral Questions has now elapsed. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. DR. TWOMEY: Under the provision of

Section 37 of the Newfoundland Medical Care Insurance Act, I am pleased to table the Report of the Newfoundland Medical Care Commission for the year ending March 31, 1984. Petitions MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, to the hon. House of Assembly, I beg leave to present a R603

petition on behalf of 262 residents of Burgeo. The prayer of the petition is; "We, the undersigned, anglers of Burgeo, Newfoundland, believe that the federal government's catch and release programme will be damaging to salmon stocks and to angling sportsmanship. We request that the government immediately cancel this programme for Newfoundland and adopt a programme that serves the best interest of anglers and promotes conservation of stocks.

We, therefore, propose that the government re-enact the 1984 regulation with one exception, that caught and release salmon not count toward the bag limit of grilse, and that this petition be presented to the provincial government for discussion with the Government in Ottawa." As I present this petition, Mr. Speaker, I agree with the content and the prayer because I feel it is a concern of all sports fishermen in the Province of Newfoundland.

I know there has been some studies done on this catch and release programme, but as nothing has ever been proved conclusively that it does not damage an already endangered species like East Coast salmon. They have done studies where they have checked the rivers and brooks and say, "well, we cannot see many dead ffsh in the brooks." You would not expect to with the amount of predators around. There was a study done on the salmon in British Columbia, which is an altogether different species than the one we are talking about here. They carne in with some figures but, again, they were not conclusive.

The rules which they are using for sports salmon fishermen this year will certainly take away from the L604 14 May 1985 tourist industry because the fishermen can go to the pools, they can stand around the pools and fish all day, and they can stay there until they claim their two fish. So what the people of Burgeo are asking is that we return to the same proposals that were put forward and the rules that were followed last year, meaning that they can catch two fish and then move on to give someone else a chance in already crowded pools.

I support this petition and I ask that the petition be placed on the table of the Bouse and be referred to the department concerned. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The bon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak in support ot" this particular petition. I think, Mr. Speaker, that there is something seriously wrong with the kind of situation that we now have on our rivers in Newfoundland.

I think that if you have a regulation like we are operating under now, where a sports fisherman can go on a river all day long, hook fish, play them and release them, that they can continue to do this for as long as they want. Eventually, of course, they have to make a choice of which two salmon to take. Mr. Speaker, I have had some experience with salmon. I worked for three years very closely on salmon and I happen to know quite a bit about them. I know that when a salmon is hooked and played to exhaustion, that salmon will most likely and very quickly die, R604

regardless of what they are like at the time they are released. The kind of hooks that are used is a factor and a lot depends upon exactly where they are hooked. If they are hooked simply in the corner of the mouth, it is probably not as bad as· if they are actually hooked through the roof or the floor of the mouth. ·However, when a salmon is played to exhaustion, unless there is some very special care taken with that salmon~ it will almost certainly die.

With this programme, there is no education available for the sports fisherman to indicate exactly what they have to do with the hooked salmon before they are released or exactly how they can revive the salmon and bring it back to a shape where it can then survive. I think, with this type of regulation, we will find that salmon will be turning up dead along the shores of our rivers very often. We are going to start destroying a resource that we can ill afford to destroy. And, Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out another anomaly in the way that we have handled the situation with regard to salmon in this Province.

I would like to relate what is happening on the rivers and the regulations for the rivers with one of the things that has to happen with fishermen outside the rivers, the fishermen who have their herring nets out or their cod nets or whatever. If they get a salmon in their net, Mr. Speaker, and the salmon is dead, they have to throw it overboard. They cannot take it and eat it. They have to throw this dead salmon away - a wasted kind of situation.

Equate that with a regulation which now allows sports fishermen to hook and play as many salmon as they wish in the L605 14 May 1985 run of a day and, then release them and, in effect, kill salmon. I am wondering, Mr. Speaker, if these regulations are not a little mixed up. I think they certainly need to be changed so I have no hesitation in speaking in strong support of the petition that was just presented. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. North. member for Bonavista MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, under

Section 23 of our Standing Orders, I beg leave to move the adjournment of the House to discuss a matter of extreme, urgent public importance. And the matter, Sir, is the unfortunate and devastating plight in which our fishermen and their families will find themselves in as of tomorrow, 15 May, which is the terminating date for UIC benefits to fishermen.

Whereas the unfavourable weather conditions are compounded by Artie ice throughout many parts of the Province, and particularly the Northeast Coast, will prevent fishermen from prosecuting the fisheries, hence, the loss of UIC income will cause severe financial hardship to fishermen and their families. The purpose of this motion, Mr. Speaker, is to debate the severity of this matter and to request the federal government to extend this date so as to bring fishermen to personal bankruptcy. MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. R605

.. :zu • MR. MARSHALL : The provisions with respect for the adjournment of the House and the matter of urgency are dealt with on pages 91 and 92 of Beauchesne. I quote from Paragraph 285, "The Standing Order appears clear that the question be specific and must require urgent consideration. It must deal with a matter within the administrative competence of the Government and there must be no other reasonable opportunity for debate." Now this is not within the administrative competence of the government anyway and there are plenty of other opportunities to debate.

"The 'specific and important matter requiring urgent consideration' , for the discussion of which the adjournment of the House may be moved under S. 0. 26, must be so pressing that public interest will suffer if it is not given immediate attention." Now I attention, Paragraph this rule draw your particular Mr. Speaker, to 287, "Urgency within does not apply to the matter itself, but means 'urgency of debate', when within the ordinary opportunities provided by the rules of the House do not permit the subject to be brought on early enough and public interest demands that discussion take place immediately." Now, Mr.

Speaker, this consumed a part of the Question Period and it was, in effect, debated then. While it is a matter of concern, there is no 'urgency of debate' with respect to it. And the big thing is it must be a matter within the administrative competence of the government. And what the hon. gentleman is asking is something that is within the administrative competence of the federal government, so it is L606 14 May 1985 clearly out of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me point out to the Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) that we believe on this side of the House that the motion put forward by my friend for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush) is of extreme importance to this Province. It is of utmost importance of some 12,000 to 15,000 fishermen living along the Northeast Coast of this Province who tomorrow - and that is what makes it urgent, not ten months from now, tomorrow - will have no income as a result of a federal government action that cuts off - and I will address his other point in a minute, Mr. Speaker - that cuts off their income and that leaves them without a penny. Now, what are we asking the government to do?

We are asking the government in the resolution to make representation, to ask their federal Tory buddies, their counterparts in Ottawa, to see that this is extended. It is surely within their competence to do that. To send, as the Minister of Career Development (Mr. Power) said, a telex to Ottawa saying that we in this House consider it urgent enough to have a debate on it this afternoon, to push for a change of regulations and a change of rules. But, Mr. Speaker, it is typical of the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) that he has no conscience when it comes to the poor people of this Province.

As long as he can keep peace between himself and Ottawa, between himself and his Tory buddies, the change of heart that he has had is amazing. So, Mr. Speaker, we submit to you that the Government R606

House Leader is wrong in saying there is no 'urgency of debate.' There is an urgency. There is an urgency with 12,000 to 15,000 people in this Province not having an income. And, therefore, the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) , if by no other means, should give leave of this House to debate this very urgent and very pressing matter. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please!

I would like to draw han. members' attention to Standing Orders, No. 23.(c), nthat the bon. member proposing this motion would hand a written statement to the Speaker, who, if he thinks it is in order and of urgent public importance, reads it out and asks whether the member has leave of the House.n I do not have tha~. Number two, I presume we are dealing with Interim Supply, where there is ample opportunity for bon. members to deal with the matter. I must rule that that is not an order at the present time. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, before we get to Orders of the Day, I would like, pursuant to Standing Order 84 (a), to advise the House that the Committee established under 84 (

a) has reported and, that, I am making L607 14 May 1985 pursuant to the following motions with respect to the constitution of the Committees of the House: To be members of the Government Services Committee are the bon. the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) , the han. the me~er for Humber West (Mr. Baird) , the han. the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren), the bon. the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Greening), the bon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Decker), the han. the member for Gander (Mr. Baker l and the bon. the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush). AN HON.

MEMBER: That is for Government Services. MR. MARSHALL: That is Government Services. To be members of the Social Services Committee: The bon. the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) , the bon. the member for Trinity- Bay de Verde (Mr. Reid), the han. the member for Burin Placentia West (Mr. Tobin), the bon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Mitchell), the han. the member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter) , the han. the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan), the hon. the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock). To be members of the Resource Committee: The bon. the member for Carbonear (Mr.

Peach), the han. the member for Burin Placentia West (Mr. Tobin), the han. the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) , the hon. the member for Humber Valley (Mr. Woodford), the hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Simmons), the han. the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) and the hon. the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk). To be Accounts members of Committee: the Public The hon. the R607

member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) , the hen. the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush), the hen. the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) , the hen. the member for Humber Valley (Mr. Woodford), the hen. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Mitchell), the hen. the member for Humber West (Mr. Baird) and the hen. the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter). MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): the (Mr. the President of Marshall) members for the has the The hen. Council announced Standing Services Committees, Committee, Government Social Services Committee, Resource Committee and the Public Accounts Committee.

Those in favour of the motion, 'Aye•. ALL HON. MEMBERS: Aye. MR. SPEAKER: Carried. Orders of the Day MR. MARSHALL : Motion 1, Interim Supply. MR. SPEAKER : Motion 1, Interim Supply. On motion that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): Order, please! L608 14 May 1985 Shall the resolution carry? MR. BAKER: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The hen. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Mr.

Chairman , adjourned the particular item I believe debate last day. that I on this I would like to continue with my train of thought and then I would like to get back to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) for just a few minutes. I was talking in terms of the effect of certain measures instituted by the Department of Municipal Affairs on municipalities in this Province. I went on to discuss the effects of the new Student Summer Employment programme and the effect that that was having on municipalities in the Province. The fact is, very shortly, Mr.

Chairman, students, thousands of them, will be looking for jobs, and their main employer in the last couple of years, the municipalities, will not be able to hire them. There will not be enough jobs with the municipalities to really make it worthwhile. The stress in this year's programme, Mr. Chairman , has been placed on the private sector, and there are some real difficulties with this stress. First of all, private employers hire the students that they need during the Summer. They hire them on the basis of economics. If they have a business that requires Summer students, then they will hire them as needed.

This programme, however, particular stresses the R608

fact that private businesses, if they are to avail of the Summer Student Programme, must, in fact, be hiring students surplus to their needs, which means that they will have to be putting extra money into the programme and spending extra money, spending money that they do not need; and I would submit to you that these private businesses, Mr. Chairman, are not going to spend money that they do not need to spend and, hence, will again not take advantage of the programme. The only way, Mr.

Chairman, that they will take advantage of this programme and spend the money that needs to be spent on Summer student employment is if they use this money to hire people that they would ordinarily hire, which means that this whole programme, this Summer Student programme that is claimed to be creating 6,000 Summer student jobs, will, in fact, create very few Summer . student jobs in excess of the normal ones that would exist. So we find then, a situation that is going to be very bad for the students this Summer. I am glad to see that the Minister of Career Development (Mr.

Power) is listening with bated breath and with great interest. It is always nice to see his smiling face. I would suggest to the minister that he go and check some other figures that I am sure he has not checked and that the people at the Canada Employment Centres will not be able to check, and that is the number of applications from private enterprise that are really supplanting regular employees that they _ hire on every Summer. This is something that he would like to gloss over. However, Mr.

Chairman, we will soon see L609 14 May 1985 thousands of students protesting at the minister's door because they do not have Summer jobs this Summer. AN HON. MEMBER: You are hoping. MR. BAKER: I do not hope • I hope they all get jobs, and I only wish that government had provided the money through the municipalities to hire the students that they hired last Summer. MR. SIMMONS: There are 29 businesses in Grand Falls. We are cleaning her. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh . MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): Order, please! MR. BAKER: I am glad to see you back again today. Mr.

Chairman, in my concluding remarks, I would like to refer to some statements made by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) in his little ramble yesterday. The Minister of Finance talked in terms of the Opposition holding up the pay cheques of the civil servants, Mr. Chairman, and the time was coming when they had to make out the pay cheques and it took time to do that. And they would not be able to do it because the mean, nasty Oppos ition was daring to speak to this particular Interim Supply Bill. I would like to Minister of Finance that there inform the (Dr.

Collins) were other opportunities to have money available before now. Number one, R609

there was no need of the election that was just called. The budget could have been brought down a month ago. There was no need for the Premier of this Province to do his polls to find out, two years and eleven months into his mandate, that all of a sudden he could see figures on the polls that showed that he would get a majority, which would give him another four or five years in office. This Province is being governed by polls.

We could have had a budget, it could have been passed by now, and these civil servants could have been paid except for this particular consideration by the government, which includes the Minister of Finance. So the blame, if there is any, for late pay cheques, or the inability to provide pay cheques, belongs squarely on the shoulders of the government. And, Mr.

Chairman, I do not like to hear threats like that coming from the opposite side, statements that are threatening to us in the sense that if we dare speak on this Interim Supply legislation, we are causing some great harm to all these people, all these civil servants out there. We would not want to cause them one bit of harm, Mr. Chairman. My suggestion to the Minister of Finance is, if that is his concern, a little bit of planning a month ago, or two or three months ago, would have ensured that we . would not be in the situation right now where we have to try and rush something through. Mr.

Chairman, these are the few remarks that I want to make at this time on the Interim Supply legislation. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): L610 14 May 1985 Before recognizing the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle), I would like to, on behalf of all hon. members, welcome His Worship, Mayor Ackerman of Glovertown, in the great district of Terra Nova. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Mr.

Chairman, I cannot say I was very interested today in what the hon. member . had to say, but I listened with some interest yesterday to what the hon. gentleman had to say with respect to some of the cutbacks that government has been forced to make to municipalities over the last three or four years. Mr.

Chairman, I guess what I would say to the hen. gentleman today is roughly the same thing that I said to him and the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities back in October, at their annual convention, and that was simply that hopefully some of the cutbacks that government has been forced to make to municipalities over the last couple of years will be short-term cutbacks, and that there will be some measure of relief offered to municipalities all across the Province as the economic conditions in the Province generally improve. Now, having said that, Your Honour, I might say to the hon. gentleman }=or Gander (Mr.

Baker) that he certainly does not appear to be well informed about all the improvements and all the fine progressive steps that this government has made over the last R610

five year period to municipalities all across the Province. But, Mr. Chairman, .I am not going to be unkind to the hon. gentleman, because I know he is a new member, and I am going to give him some time to do a little bit of research on all the great progressive steps that this government has implemented for municipalities, in general, over the last five years. And if he wants to know anything about those great progressive steps, Mr. Chairman, all he has to do is to come down to my office and I will take an hour or so to show him around and to educate him about everything that is being done in the Province. Mr.

Chairman, I will give him some time, as I said, to find out that it was this government, back in 1979, which brought in the new Municipalities Act, and it was this government, Mr. Chairman, in 1980, which brought in the new grants formula which saw, incidentially, Mr. Chairman, operating grants and grants to municipalities in this Province go from $30 million, in 1979, to $71 million in 1984-1985. Mr. Chairman, all that happened with the stroke of a pen.

You might say it went from $30 million up to $71 million virtually overnight, and that happened because of the change to an administration which is very, very sensitive indeed to the municipalities, in general, and felt that municipalities should be able to offer some level of service to the people they represent. It was this government, Mr. Chairman, who brought that in.

Now, getting around to the hon. gentleman and his constituency of Gander: The hon. gentleman was a member of the Town Council in L6ll 14 May 1985 Gander, he was also an executive member, I believe, of the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities up to his election to this hon. House. Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman knows that back in 1979 Gander, for instance, was operating on a $180,000 operating grant. With one fell swoop, Mr. Chairman, back in 1979-1980, Gander went from $180 ,, 000 of an operating grant up to $909,000. Now, Mr.

Chairman, can you imagine that, going from $180,000, back in 1979, up to $909,000, an increase of $729,000? So I really do not know, Mr. Chairman, what the hon. gentleman is talking about when he says that we have not been fair to municipalities in general. As a matter of fact, I will agree with the hon. gentleman that there is much more funding needed for municipalities all across this Province. I have had the opportunity in the last six, seve .n or eight months, however long it has been that I am a minister - since October - to visit approximately 180-odd municipalities right across this Province - MR.

BAKER: 180 already? MR. DOYLE: 180 since Dctober. - and I can say to the hon. gentleman that there is some level of concern being expressed by municipalities; they feel that there is not enough funding being made available by government to address all of the needs that they have. And I could not agree more. But, at the same time, Mr. Chairman, I have to repeat what I said to the Federation back in October, that, hopefully, when economic conditions improve in the Province, some increased level of R6ll

assistance will be made available to municipalities in general, and that some of the cutbacks that we have been forced to make to councils in the Province will be short-term cutbacks. Hopefully that will happen, Mr. Chairman. Again I would remind the han. gentleman that it was this government, again back in 1979, which brought in that very progressive piece of legislation called the Tax Incentive Grant, which gives forty-five cents to every single municipality in this Province, Mr. Chairman, who has the property tax system in place, if they collect - MR. BAKER: It is forty cents now. MR. DOYLE: No, it is not.

It went from fifty cents down to forty-five cents. Municipalities will be given forty-five cents for every dollar that they collect in property tax. In the han. gentleman's own riding, in Gander, Gander this year will collect $1 million in tax incentive grants from this government, Mr. Chairman, because they will be collecting approximately $2 million in property tax. So they will collect, on top of everything else, $1 million in tax incentive grants from this government. Mr.

Chairman, the han. gentleman did not mention that, because that was a good progressive step, he wanted to mention the fact that government is charging .0002 per cent of the value of the taxable role for assessments in the Province. I might mention to the han. gentleman that that is a matter of some controversy and a matter of some concern, as well, L612 14 May 1985 to municipalities around the Province who have the property tax system in place, and I am in consultation with the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities, with Mr. Dickson and its Executive Director, Mr.

Smith, and we are discussing that particular problem to some degree and we are hopefully going to come up with a maybe a more equitable method. Mr. Chairman, the han. gentleman did not want to mention the fact that Gander is receiving all this funding from government, he did not want to mention the fact that his colleague's district of Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward) this year will collect $630, 000 in tax incentive grants from this government. The han. gentleman did not mention that. MR. DINN: Would you repeat that figure again? MR. DOYLE: Stephenville will collect $630,000 this year in tax incentive grants. MR.

DINN: That is amazing! MR. KELLAND: It is amazing that we are getting any money out of them, that is right MR. DOYLE: Mr. Chairman, where is the han. the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick)? He is out there somewhere. Maybe he is not aware of the fact that back in 1979 Labrador City was operating on an operating grant of $191,000 per year, and as a result of the new grants system by in by this government, today Labrador City is receiving $1,320,000. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): Order, please! R612

The hon. the minister's time has elapsed. MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. the member for Bona vista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman, I want to address the matter of urgency that I tried to raise a little earlier. His Honour said we would be given ample time in this particular forum, under this par~icular heading, to debate it, and, Mr. Chairman, I want to do just that and I want to raise two issues: First of all, I want to raise the very extreme, urgent situation in which the fishermen of this Province find themselves with respect to the termination of UIC, tomorrow being May 15. Mr.

Chairman, I do not know what could be any more urgent than that, when we have this situation happening tomorrow. We on this side of the House have tried to point out the urgency and extreme importance of the government acting immediately. As I look under that head, Mr.

Chairman, and see $6. 5 million being allocated for fisheries, I am wondering to what extent this government is going to try to influence their federal counterparts to see that this regulation is not enforced tomorrow; I am wondering to what extent this government will use their considerable influence with their federal counterparts to ensure that the date for receiving UIC benefits will be extended to a reasonable time, when fishermen of this Province will be able to harvest fish, when they will be able to prosecute the fisheries, Mr. Chairman, in safety.

And that is not the situation now, as we L613 14 May 1985 have ice all around our coast, particularly the Northeast Coast of Newfoundland and fishermen just cannot get out to fish. Indeed, lobster fishermen on the Northeast Coast have had extensive damage done to their pots already. I do not know whether other members are finding that, but on the Northeast Coast alone, the area with which I am familiar, already there have been 1, 000 pots damaged since the season began. This was as of the weekend, when I was there.

Fishermen are finding it very, very difficult to keep on fishing this species with the tremendous loss of lobster pots. Only this weekend it was brought to my attention that we have a lobster pot bank, or a lobster pot pool, and I find that the fishermen just cannot afford to buy these lobster pots. I think they are selling for seven dollars each. Now, I was talking to one fishermen in particular over the weekend who has lost sixty pots, and that is just about going to ruin his ability in terms of doing anything with lobster fishing this season.

In order for him to be .able to carry on, it means that he is going to have to outlay something close to $500. MR. TULK: How much are they charging for traps, do you know? MR. LUSH: Seven dollars per trap. In addition to that, the fishermen have to buy their own ropes and whatever other gear they need. So it is going to cost this particular gentleman, who has lost sixty pots, practically $600 to get .back into lobster fishing this season. DR. COLLIN S: R613

. ~ (Inaudible). MR. LUSH: I just pointed out to the hon. minister, if he was listening, that they have to buy extra equipment. The lobster pot by itself is no good. They have lost everything, so they have to buy ropes and other equipment needed. All they get is the naked trap and a naked trap is no good, it requires ropes and other equipment that they have to find themselves. Now, Mr. Chairman, these lobster pots were built, manufactured, made, under a programme developed by Social Services, this great programme that they talk about. These lobster pots were made under that programme, so why, Mr.

Chairman, are they now trying to bleed and exploit the fishermen of this Province by trying to sell them back to them for $7 a trap? Mr. Chairman, if this government wants to do something, if they want something in their purview, if they want something immediately under their jurisdiction, here is something they can do : They should immediately cut the price of these lobster pots by at least 50 per cent, if not give them to them. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. TULK: They are rotting away anyway. MR. LUSH: That is the other side of the coin. These lobster pots are being kept and they are just rotting, Mr.

Chairman. So they should do something immediately for those fishermen who had their lobster traps destroyed by ice in the last few days to make sure that these fisherman can get back L614 14 May 1985 into lobster fishing and see if they cannot do their best in this crucial time, rather than charging them $7 for these pots which were built by Social Services. DR. COLLINS: Would the hon. Bonavista North a question? MR. LUSH: Yes, sure. the (Mr. member for Lush) permit MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: There is an alternative to what the hon. member is suggesting.

We could do what the previous Liberal government did, we could suggest the lobster fishermen burn their boats. Would you consider that alternative? SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman, I was kind enough to yield to the hon. gentleman. Let the hon. gentleman know that that is the very last time that I will yield to him, in all sincerity, to ask an intelligent question. For the hon. gentleman to come up with that sort of stupid question, it is the last time that I will yield to the hon. gentleman.

Let that kind of question go out to the fishermen of this Province to let the fishermen of this Province know how sincere the hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) takes their particular situation, the plight that they are now in. Mr. Chairman, I certainly hope that somebody will address that question, and that they will rise and say they are going to do something about these two sets of circumstances that I have alluded R614

to, one, UIC being terminated tomorrow, and, secondly, the cost of lobster traps to the fishermen of this Province who lost many, many traps due to ice conditions in this particular season. Mr. Chairman, I have another point to which I want to allude. Is my time running out, Mr Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: You have five minutes. MR. LUSH: to go! I have my points very that I shall Oh, five minutes time to develop adequately and proceed to do. sure that bon. are not missing essence of what today. I want to make gentlemen opposite the pith and the I am requesting My third point, Mr.

Chairman, relates to fishermen, and it is this very callous, this very inconsiderate move made recently by the federal government to have this mandatory buy-back of salmon licences from part-time fishermen in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. LUSH: Let me explain, Mr • Chairman. We have a particular classification of a part-time fisherman who is serving his apprenticeship trying to become a full-time fisherman. Now, all bon. gentlemen should know how it is that a person enters the fishery today. First he has to come in as a part-time fisherman to establish his criteria to become a full-time fisherman.

Well, now, Mr. Chairman, we have this very inconsiderate move by the federal government to take away the salmon licence of the part-time L615 14 May 1985 fisherman, the fisherman who is trying to become a full-time fisherman,. and this is going to further erode his position. He is never going to become a full-time fisherman if we take away this right. Mr. Chairman, I said it was an inconsiderate move, and let hon. gentlemen listen. I said it was an inconsiderate move. Yes, indeed, a callous move. When did they notify the fishermen of this?

About six or sven days ago, when most of the fishermen in this Province .had their licences. They were notified six or seven days ago, the letter was sent out from the federal offices on April 25. MR. POWER: They knew about it before that. MR. LUSH: If they knew about it, how come they had their salmon licences? Most fishermen were in possession of their salmon licences, they spent money to prosecute the salmon fishery this season. They spent their money and then they get this letter saying they had to surrender their licences, Mr. Chairman, by the end of this month, by the end of May.

Now, I would suggest, in view of the circumstances I have described, the part-time fisherman who is trying to meet the requirements to become a full-time fisherman, is the classification I am concerned with. That is the classification I am concerned with, the part-time fisherman who is aiming to become a full-time fisherman. MR. POWER: (Inaudible) the fellow in the fishery for a year {inaudible) take it away for thirty years. There is no salmon (inaudible) R615

MR. LUSH: The point of the matter, Mr. Chairman, is that we have part-time fishermen who are trying to become full-time fishermen. If that is the way it, well, then, calssification fishermen. the minister wants just rule out this of part-time What should have been done, Mr. Chairman, is there should have been some appeal board set up so that a fisherman could demonstrate that he was trying to fullfil the requirements to become a full-time fisherman.

There should have been an appeal board so that this particular fisherman could have been able to demonstrate the amount of income that he was getting from the fisheries. Mr. Chairman, now we know the story, now we know why there is no action being taken on this; the government have no concern over it, they do not want these part-time fishermen there. They do not want any part-time fishermen, they want the licences removed from these par~-time fishermen who are trying to meet the requirements to become full-time fishermen. Now we know! Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if hon. members opposite also know the three options provided under the buy-back programme? The one I want to refer to now is the first one: When a person surrenders the licence, the first option is, without any receipts or anything at all, they will be given $750. Do hon. gentlemen opposite know that with old age pensioners this is going to be counted as income and that they are going to have this taken out of their cheques? MR. MORGAN: The buy-back? L616 14 May 1985 MR. LUSH: The buy-back is going to be counted as income.

This is very, very serious, and I am glad to know the member for Bona vista South (Mr. Morgan) is listening, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. LUSH: I will get a on that, Mr. later. chance to elaborate Chairman, a little SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. CHAIRMAN: By leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. CHAIRMAN: By leave. MR. LUSH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I shall not be long.

If I can just explain that: This first option is a $750 buy-back, and, as I have explained, fishermen do not have to submit any receipts for this, it is just a matter of surrendering their licences. MR. POWER: There are about 4,000 (inaudible). MR. LUSH: Yes, there are three options, I foget what they are, but the first one is $750 when the licence is surrendered without any receipts or anything to say what the person made last year, or whatever. If they did not keep any receipts, there is an automatic buy-back of $750. But, Mr.

Chairman, what is going to happen is that this will be counted as income, and it is R616

certainly going to hurt an old age pensioner to surrender his licence when it is going to be counted as income. What he is really going to get out of that is about $300. Now, why does ·this have to be counted as income , Mr. Chairman? Here we have fishermen who fished in this Province for thirty and forty years and, now, here they are saying they going to buy back their licences for $750 and it ends up not being that at all, it ends up that this is going to be taken out of their cheques for however long this is considered as income, and one can be sure that it is going to be around 50 per cent. MR.

CALLAN: It should be a capital asset. MR. LUSH: That is right. It should be a capital asset and not considered as income. We do not know about this yet, but I think, also, it is going to be considered income for all fishermen - people who are on UIC. That has not been clarified yet. I have tried to get it clarified, but if it is counted as income in the one situation, how can it not be counted as income in the other? But it is surely counted as income with old age pensioners. Mr.

Chairman, that is another issue to which hon. members should be addressing themselves to see that there is no hardship brought on people as a result of having to surrender their salmon licences. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon.the member for Bonavista South. L617 14 May 1985 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, just a few brief comments. I understand the . hon. gentleman is going to return to the same point.

It is a bit of a concern to me as a member from a fishing riding that with these licences to fishermen they were so late in being notified of the change, that no part-time fishermen would be allowed to fish. It was late for them with regard to expenditures they had put forward as fishermen.

Many of them in my area replaced their fishing gear, put new nets in place and that kind of .thing, getting geared up to go fishing this Spring, and added to that was the problem, which I find in my riding, that these part-timers, although they were now part-timers, they were on the verge of becoming, in some cases, full-timers - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Right! MR. MORGAN: - because they were after serving two years and were going into three years.

Therefore, if they were given adequate notice of the change in policy they would have been able to retain their licences by becoming full-time fishermen and they would not have had to have the outgoing expenditure of additional funds to prepare for this year. That, Mr. Chairman, if of concern to fishermen.

I was hoping that the matter would have been clarified at the federal level for the fishermen, but, as it now stands, I think many fishermen are still confused because they are not sure that they can appeal as part-timers before losing their salmon licences, and maybe be able to retain them, and they are not sure if they can transfer their R617

part-time licences. For example, one chap in Red Cliff, in my own district, is a full-time fisherman. Two of them fish in the one boat for salmon, and the licence is held by the part-time fisherman. Now, both of them are tyring to make a living from the salmon fishery by fishing in the one boat, and what that full-time fisherman wants to know is if he can have that licence transferred from the part-timer, who fishes in the same boat, to him, a full-timer, and he cannot find out if there is a policy direction on that. Mr. Chairman, I am inclined to agree with the member for Bona vista North (Mr.

Lush) , because in this case, in the two parts of the bay, fishing is the only part of the economy they can depend on out there to make a living. It is an important issue and I must admit there has been no clarification of this policy by Ottawa, at least clarification to the level of the fishermen, so they can deal with it adequately. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Right! MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman, if I may be able, again, to elaborate on this point a little more and what I recommended.

I have done so now for the past week or so and I do not know whether the government has taken any action on this. I have recommended one of two steps. One is that they ask the L618 14 May 1985 federal government to cancel that programme this year in view of the fact that they brought it out so late. I said, Mr. Chairman, that I saw a letter that was written April 25, and this would have been somewhere around May 8, the first week in May, when this particular fisherman received this notification and, as the hon. the member for Bonavista South (Mr.

Morgan) so ably said, this gentleman had made investments for the salmon fishery this year and now he gets this notification the first week in May saying that he has to surrender the licence. Now, in addition to that, as I said before, for old age pensioners this is going to be counted as income and they are going to have to pay taxes on this, so they are not indeed getting $750 at all. It is going to be closer to $300. It might be applied to all fishermen. It might be income. We have not been able to get an answer on it. People were hazy on it. They did not know.

It seems like it was just a spur of the moment decision for such a big thing as with this part-time salmon fishermen who has to make a considerable outlay to take

part in this particular fisheries and so late in the year, in April, when the fishermen are all ready to go, when they have made all the preparations, when they have certainly spent their money for whatever gear they are going to need, an on the spur of the moment decision. Yes. I was just checking to see whether that sounds rhythmical, and musical, Mr. Chairman, and whether it is coming out right, an on the spur of the moment decision that was made, as I say, late in April. In view of that, I have asked the provincial government to do two R618

things: one, either to contact their federal counterpart and cancel the programme for this year in view of the fact that it was made so late in the season, or, secondly, set up some sort of an appeal process. And this is not new, I believe this might have been done when the hon. member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) was Minister of Fisheries on another occasion when there was a mandatory buy back of licences. The federal government of that day set up an appeal process and this is what should be done now. And it is not too late, Mr.

Chairman, it is not too late, but if the government procrastinates, it will be too late. And I am asking the government now, in view of the circumstances by which these harsh measures were brought about, I am asking them now to at least work on behalf of these part-time fishermen and ask the federal government to set up some process of appeal whereby these fishermen can go ·to an appeal board and state their case, and state whether this is going to interfere with their ability to become full-time fishermen, what it means in terms of loss of income and a whole score of things, Mr. Chairman.

That can be done to help these fishermen now, who are certainly in a very frustrating situation. That is the least that the government can do to demonstrate their concern for these part-time fishermen throughout Newfoundland and particularly on the Northeast Coast. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Mr. Chairman, I am beginning to wonder, Sir, if my hearing is not L619 14 May 1985 impaired. I do believe, Sir, that I heard someone from the other side of this hon. House ask what is a lobster trap? This was when the previous member was speaking first.

I hope my hearing is impaired, though that would .be a terrible situation for one so young to have, one who is a part of such a young, vibrant group on this side of the House to be infli .cted with a hearing loss which normally comes with the aged, as I see facing me on the other side. So I hope, Mr. Chairman, that I did not hear this question: 'What is a lobster trap?' I could not have because if I did, Mr. Chairman, then we have no hope of ever coming to grips with the problem of unemployment in this Province. So let us hope, Mr.

Chairman, that I misunderstood and that no one was stupid and silly and ignorant enough, no Newfoundlander surely, to ask what is a lobster trap. I want to speak to this bill for interim supply. The Department of Health, Mr. Chairman, is asking for $161,027,800. What an immense amount of money the like of which none of us as individuals will ever hope to lay our hands on if we live to be a million. Just about $162 million for three months. It is unbelievable.

It makes me ask where does this kind of money come from that we can talk about $162 million for one insignificant department of the government, a department of government which should not even be a department of government? We do not need a separate Department of Health. How can we talk about $162 million to be thrown down the drain for the sake of three months by an insignificant department of our government? It makes me ask where does this kind of money come from. Is there a machine that R619

. .:. prints out this money that we should take it and have so little respect for it and so little regard for it that we just treat it as if it were mere paper of no value and of no significance? Where does it come from, Mr. Chairman? Let me tell you where it comes from, Sir. It comes from the poor widow in Red Bay who, when her cheque comes in from the government at the end of the month, after she pays her light bill, after she pays for her groceries, after she pays for her fuel, she puts aside a few cents, Mr.

Chairman, to save for some garment of clothing and after saving for four or five months she finally has enough money to go to the shop and buy a dress for herself, Mr. Chairman, and, compliments of the bon. the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), she pays 12 per cent of her purchase in a retail sales tax. That is where this money is coming from, Mr. Chairman, that the bon. members are so flippant about, this money that the bon. members will not even dignify with their presence without scoffing because someone gets up and points out the silliness of this demand for $162 million.

That is where this money is coming from, Mr. Chairman, the poor widows in this Province. Where is this money coming from, Mr. Chairman? It is coming from the lumbermen around this Province, who, for the greater part of a year, five days a week, get out of bed at 6:00 a.m. in the morning to go into the woods, no matter what kind of weather we have - the rain, the frost, the snow; and then in the Summer the hot sun and the flies. They go in and they sweat and they toil because they are the people who generate this money. It is the L620 14 May 1985 sum total of their work put together, Mr.

Chairman, that is what money is. When they come to pick up their pay cheques at the end of the week there is a substantial deduction taken out and part of that money, Mr. Chairman, is included in this $162 million that we are going to take and spend on a department of this government which should not even be a separate department of this government. That is where this money comes from. Where does this money come from, Mr. Chairman? This money comes from the fishermen of our Province that this side of the House has so gallantly demonstrated we have so much care and concern for.

It seems that we are the only ones in this Province who care that, come tomorrow, there will be 12,000 people in this Province with no income. That is where this money comes from. It comes from the fishermen whom the other side of the House would not even permit us to put aside the normal business so that we could discuss them and hopefully arrive at some solution because we are full of ideas over here. We are the young. We are the government in waiting. We are the ones who have the answers and we are just waiting for the opportunity to put them in place. I tell the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) thank goodness we have not got to wait much longer because every day is a day closer to when this government in waiting will become the government and all of this will be thrown out one side and you will have someone who cares for the woman in Red Bay, who cares for the lumberjack, and who cares for the fishermen. We are a government in waiting and we are a government who cares, Mr. R620

Chairman. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Bear, hear! MR. DECKER: We care where this money is coming from. Where is this money coming from? Oh, Mr. Chairman, it grieves me to see the flippancy on the other side of this hon. Bouse. I thought I was coming into a Bouse where people were concerned, where people cared, where people genuinely came here to serve, but I see this Bouse of service becoming a Bouse of masters and a Bouse of Lords which was never meant to be. We are put here as servants and let us never forget that, Mr. Chairman.

The day that we forget that we are here to serve the fishermen and the widow and the lumberjack - AN BON. MEMBER: Send someone collection. MR. DECKER: around with the You will take the collection. It will probably go up by 10 per cent in this budget, Mr. Chairman. You have been grabbing the collection for the last thirteen years. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): Order, please! The hon. the member's time has elapsed. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition •• MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.

Decker) is so inspirational I felt that I ' L621 14 May 1985 should step in and say a few words and answer a few of the questions that have been raised by the member. Mr. Chairman, the member asks: 'where is the money coming from and where is the money going?' Well, I will tell the member where some of the money is going. The Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey), I am sorry to say, just .left the Chamber. I assume he is still outside where he can hear me. Well, he received a letter a :few days ago, I received a copy, I think the Premier received a copy as well of the lady - MR. PATTERSON: Was it a 'Dear Abbey' letter?

MR. BARRY: No, it was not a Dear Abbey letter. I will show it to the member for Placentia and we will listen as to whether he agrees to what happens. We are talking about the daughter of a women who is in hospital writing in to explain what happened to her mother or her mother-in-law, I think, it was. This was an elderly lady in a hospital in this Province who was dying. There was nothing that anybody could do for her. Her condition was so bad that just to touch her \•muld cause her flesh to erupt in blisters. She was in extremis. And the staff of that hospital insisted on sending her home. AN RON.

MEMBER: To be fed with a syringe. MR. BARRY: She had to be fed with a syringe. Her son had told the hospital that he could not look after her in that condition, that it was just impossible. There was nobody here-R621

AN HON. MEMBER: Name names. MR. BARRY: Yes, the names will be named. I am not going to name them now because I do not want to embarrass the family. Well just let me go into the - AN HON. MEMBER: Name the hospital. MR. BARRY: No, I am not going to name the hospital either until it is investigated because that is not fair. But the Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey), and I have sent him a letter just in case he did not receive a copy that I received. MR. J. CARTER: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. AN HON. MEMBER: He is not allowed to eat in the House. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The hon. member for St. John's North. MR.

J. CARTER: I think the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) could eat his words. That certainly would be parliamentary. This is absolutely out of order. This is McCarthy-like tactics at their very worst. If this situation - which I agree with the Leader of the Opposition certainly is outrageous - if this situation did occur, then the people who have perpetrated it, who are responsible for it, the names should certainly be forwarded to the appropriate department.

They need not be mentioned publicly in this House, but they should certainly be forwarded to the department so that action can be L622 14 May 1985 taken, and unless the Leader of the Opposition is prepared to do that, he should not use this kind of, I hope it is an imaginary, situation, but he should not even mention it unless he is prepared to follow through. Because if the reverse is the case, then this is the worst kind of slur on a government or any institution that one could possibly bring up. AN HON. MEMBER: True. MR. BARRY: That is very interesting, that point of order, Mr. Chairman.

For the gentleman's information, if he had been listening and not asleep as he usually is in this House, he would have heard that I have already sent names, dates, and the correspondence to the Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey). He has it. MR. J. CARTER: So why are chattering on about it in the House? MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): To that point of order, there is no point of order. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, we see from that an attitude. The member wanted to know who are the perpetrators?

He should look at himself for that sort of callous disregard for any sort of serious issue in this House. Now what we are talking about here is a policy of this government that is causing administrators of hospitals and leading medical personnel to engage in this sort of activity. Members have not heard the full story yet. Here is R622

~e f~l s~cy. ~e s~ bfu~s the hospital that he cannot take his mother in that condition. Despite his protests, they load the lady aboard an ambulance with no contact, with no telephone calls to find out if there is anybody on the other side. They bring the elderly women in an ambulance to her son's home - AN HON. MEMBER: Unconscious. MR. BARRY: Unconscious. I do not know if there is anybody home there or not, but in any event they refuse to take her into the house. She was brought back to the hospital. The daughter-in-law wrote a letter.

She was so outraged at this callous disregard for human decency, she wrote a letter when the mother was brought back to hospital. The lady died before the letter could be sent, within a matter of a. day or two days later the woman was dead and her daughter-in-law said, she decided to send the letter anyhow in the hope that this sort of incident would be avoided in the future. Now, how many incidents like this are going on in this Province today because of the incompetence and the negligence and the bad government policies that we have with respect to the administration of health in this Province?

Now, it is time for the gloves to be taken off. Now that is only one point. Now I will give you another one here, and I will be sending this to the responsible minister. I get dozens of letters like this, I am getting fed up with them. Here is a letter concerning Workers' Compensation. And this is a real test of whether there is a heart L623 14 May 1985 in this government. AN HON. MEMBER: You were fed up and you left. MR. BARRY: Yes, you are right, I was fed up when I left. You are right I was fed up. But I tell you I am getting more and more fed up.

Listen to this letter now, a gentleman writes me, and I have seen correspondence from him before, and I have written the Workers' Compensation Board on his behalf before. ~ere is a gentleman who has lost a finger, I believe, he is in the member for St. George's (Mr. Dawe) riding. He was working in the woods - MR. DAWE: I know the case very well. MR. BARRY: - or in a sawmill and he has lost a finger. I will just read a paragraph · from the letter that he is receiving from the claims adjudicator. They copied me. 'Since the surgery to the left ring finger on January 21, 1985, Mr.

Madore has been requested repeatedly by Dr. Rowe to exercise his fingers. However, it is evident from the medical evidence that Mr. Madore did not follow the doctor's advice and his hand is still very stiff. Consequently, temporary total disability benefits have been te~inated on the claim as of April 26, 1985. ' Now just picture that. The man goes, in his hand is still stiff, and the conclusion is that he has not been exercising it enough. There is no question he still cannot use it for a day's work. Now, a similar incident has just related to me by the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) , another Workers ' R623

""" Compensation case. He goes to a doctor. The worker has had a back injury, and the doctor advises that in order to move from where they are at this point, the doctor would have to operate on his back and remove certain discs or fuse certain discs. The doctor says, there is only a fifty-fifty chance of there being an improvement, and, in fact as we all know, and as the doctor pointed out there is a very grave risk to the patient whenever you get into a back operation that the condition could in fact be worse.

That individual, because he said, 'no, I will not have that operation, I want to have a back brace and try that, try exercise, try a brace for six months, ' he was cut off. Now, I am not raising that because of this one isolated incident, I have been getting and I got up in this House last year and I told the then minister responsible who is responsible now? Is it under Manpower or is it under Labour? AN HON. MEMBER: The Department of Labour. MR. BARRY: It is the Department of Labour. Well, I will be sending the minister a copy of this letter, and I am regularly sending letters.

You may have gotten one or two in the last day or so, if not, you will be. Because there is a steady stream of letters from individuals who I believe are not, and from what all correspondence indicates, are not being treated fairly by the Workers' Compensation Commission of this Province. And I am not saying it is deliberate, in the sense of a conspiracy. What it is is callousness. What it is is individuals dealing with rehabilitation officers and they L624 14 May 1985 have the lives of these citizens in their hands.

You have a claims adjudicator down there looking at an individual and making an assessment as to whether or not he is exercising his hands enough, for God's sake, when he goes home. You have a similar thing happening with respect to unemployment insurance in this Province. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. BARRY: I will continue on after we hear the enlightened remarks of the hon. member for St. John's North. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: It is now abundantly clear, after extensive research, that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Barry) was elected by the refuse of his constituency and because of that fact - MR. BARRY: I beg your pardon? Could you repeat that please? I am not quite sure I understood it because I want to be re-elected for the rest of my natural life. Could you repeat that? MR. J. CARTER: I believe that the hon. gentleman was elected by the refuse of his constituency and because of that - MR. BARRY: That is fine now. I will make sure that that goes to every door in the cons .ti tuency. MR. PATTERSON: Run against me when you want to get defeated. R624

MR. J. CARTER: - and because of that represents elements the scum therefore, important constituency, dregs SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. J. CARTER: fact, two in and he, very his the And I think that there could not be better proof than when unfortunate people write very sad letters to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry ) , hoping to get some serious consideration, and all he does is bring them up and try and play politics with them. I think it is disgraceful, it is disgusting and it is abominable. I think the whole thing is shabby, shabby, shabby. I will tell you I think the bon. gentleman ought to resign.

MR. BARRY: Mount Scio is, from now on, a safe Liberal seat. MR. PATTERSON: Not if you run against me. MR. J. CARTER: The hon. gentleman ought to before bringing up these cases and trying to make political tricks with them. resign tragic cheap Now we are on Interim Supply and traditionally the gloves are off, any topic can be raised and I suppose, I am sure in fact, the Leader of the Opposition is going to try and play with all the civil servants of the Province by unnecessarily delaying the passage of Interim Supply so the cheques will be held up.

And by that means I am sure he will guarantee his re-election many times. He may not even guarantee his L625 14 May 1985 nomination kind of fee if he plays that trick and yet I am absolutely certain , that that that is certain, just as I am standing here, precisely what he is going to do. Now we have put Estimates Committees. be barrels of time together the There will to discuss everything, even the sensitive issues, quietly informally and thoroughly. MR. BARRY: Do not bet on that. MR. J. CARTER: · most and And yet I am sure the Leader of the Opposition will not even turn up to those sessions. MR.

PATTERSON: He ran out last year on the Fisheries one, remember? MR. J. CARTER: Oh yes, not interested at all. Only interested in making ·cheap political points. It is disgraceful and I am ashamed that the hon. gentleman is in such a position. I just hope that he will have a change of heart before the time for Interim Supply runs out and the civil servants and various other people, who receive government cheques, will not have to wait for them. And I would just request him to show a little bit of decency and a little bit of concern.

That is how he can show his real concern for people by closing off the debate as soon as possible so that Interim Supply can be passed. It is shocking. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The hon. the Lead