British Columbia Hansard — Tuesday, November 17, 2009 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) (H1117pm-04) (H1117pm 04)

H1117pm-04

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

First Session, 39th Parliament o FFicial rePort o F Debates of the Legis Lative a ssemb Ly (hansarD) the honourable bill bari So FF, SPeaker iSSn 0709-1281 Tuesday, November 17, 2009 Afternoon Sitting Volume 8, Number 4

Pro Vince o F britiS h colu Mbia (entered c onfederation July 20, 1871) lieutenant -Go Vernor h is h onour the h onourable Steven l. Point, obc First Session, 39th Parliament SPeaker o F the leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y h onourable bill barisoff eXecutiVe council Premier and President of the executive c ouncil ......................................................................................................h on.

Gordon c ampbell Minister of State for intergovernmental r elations ....................................................................................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance .......................................................................................................................... h on. c olin h ansen Minister of State for the o lympics and a ctn ow b.c. ....................................................................................................... h on.

Mary Mcn eil Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation .....................................................................................................h on. George a bbott Minister of a dvanced e ducation and l abour Market Development ............................................................................ h on. Moira Stilwell Minister of a griculture and l ands ...................................................................................................................................h on.

Steve Thomson a ttorney General ...................................................................................................................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc Minister of c hildren and Family Development and Minister r esponsible for c hild c are ............................................h on.

Mary Polak Minister of citizens' Services and Minister r esponsible for Multiculturalism and the Public a ffairs bureau ...........h on. ben Stewart Minister of c ommunity and r ural Development ................................................................................................................h on. bill bennett Minister of e ducation and Minister r esponsible for early l earning and l iteracy ......................................h on.

Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of energy, Mines and Petroleum r esources .....................................................................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Minister of State for Mining ................................................................................................................................................h on. r andy h awes Minister of environment .......................................................................................................................................................h on. barry Penner Minister of State for c limate a ction ...........................................................................................................................................h on.

John Y ap Minister of Forests and r ange and Minister r esponsible for the integrated l and Management bureau ........................... h on.

Pat bell Minister of h ealth Services ...................................................................................................................................................h on. k evin Falcon Minister of h ealthy l iving and Sport ...................................................................................................................................... h on. ida c hong Minister of h ousing and Social Development .................................................................................................................h on. r ich c oleman Minister of l abour ................................................................................................................................................................ h on.

Murray c oell Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General .....................................................................................................................h on. k ash h eed Minister of Small business, t echnology and e conomic Development ................................................................................ h on. iain black Minister of t ourism, c ulture and the a rts ...................................................................................................................... h on. k evin k rueger Minister of t ransportation and infrastructure ...................................................................................................................h on.

Shirley bond leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y l eader of the official o pposition ...................................................................................................................................................c arole James Deputy Speaker .................................................................................................................................................................................... l inda r eid a ssistant Deputy Speaker .............................................................................................................................................................c laire t revena Deputy c hair, c ommittee of the Whole .......................................................................................................................................... h arry bloy c lerk of the l egislative a ssembly...................................................................................................................e.

George MacMinn, obc, Q c c lerk a ssistant ..................................................................................................................................................................................r obert Vaive c lerk a ssistant and l aw c lerk................................................................................................................................................. ian D. izard, Qc c lerk a ssistant and c lerk of c ommittees ................................................................................................................................. craig h.

James c lerk a ssistant and c ommittee c lerk .................................................................................................................................... k ate r yan-l loyd Sergeant-at-a rms .................................................................................................................................................................................

Gary l enz Director, h ansard Services ............................................................................................................................................................Jo-a nne k ern a cting l egislative l ibrarian .......................................................................................................................................................... Peter Gourlay l egislative c omptroller ....................................................................................................................................................................... Dan a rbic

alP habetical liS t o F MeMberS a bbott, h on. George (l) ........................................................................ Shuswap a ustin, r obin (nDP) ................................................................................ Skeena bains, h arry (nDP) ....................................................................Surrey-n ewton barisoff, h on. bill (l) ............................................................................Penticton barnett, Donna (l) ................................................................ c ariboo-c hilcotin bell, h on.

Pat (l) ..................................................... Prince George–Mackenzie bennett, h on. bill (l) ...................................................................k ootenay e ast black, Dawn (nDP) ................................................................n ew Westminster black, h on. iain (l) ..................................................... Port Moody–c oquitlam bloy, h arry (l) ......................................................................burnaby-l ougheed bond, h on.

Shirley (l) ...........................................Prince George–Valemount brar, Jagrup (nDP) ................................................................ Surrey-Fleetwood c adieux, Stephanie (l) ...........................................................Surrey-Panorama c ampbell, h on. Gordon (l) .........................................Vancouver–Point Grey c antelon, r on (l) ..............................................................

Parksville-Qualicum c hong, h on. ida (l) ..................................................... o ak bay–Gordon h ead c houhan, r aj (nDP) ........................................................... burnaby-e dmonds c oell, h on. Murray (l) ....................................Saanich n orth and the islands c oleman, h on. r ich (l) ...........................................

Fort l angley–a ldergrove c onroy, katrine (nDP) .............................................................. k ootenay West c oons, Gary (nDP) .........................................................................n orth c oast c orrigan, k athy (nDP) ..................................................... burnaby–Deer l ake Dalton, Marc (l) .............................................................. Maple r idge–Mission de Jong, h on.

Michael, Qc (l) .............................................. a bbotsford West Dix, a drian (nDP) ............................................................Vancouver-kingsway Donaldson, Doug (nDP) ......................................................................... Stikine e lmore, Mable (nDP) ................................................... Vancouver-kensington Falcon, h on. k evin (l) ..........................................................Surrey-c loverdale Farnworth, Mike (nDP) ............................................................

Port c oquitlam Fleming, r ob (nDP) .......................................................... Victoria–Swan l ake Foster, eric (l) .......................................................................Vernon-Monashee Fraser, Scott (nDP) ............................................................a lberni–Pacific r im Gentner, Guy (nDP) .........................................................................Delta n orth h ammell, Sue (nDP) .................................................... Surrey–Green t imbers h ansen, h on. c olin (l) ..................................................

Vancouver-Quilchena h awes, h on. r andy (l) ..................................................... a bbotsford-Mission h ayer, Dave S. (l) .................................................................... Surrey-t ynehead h eed, h on. k ash (l) ...................................................... Vancouver-Fraserview h erbert, Spencer (nDP) ..................................................Vancouver–West end h ogg, Gordon (l) ............................................................... Surrey–White r ock h organ, John (nDP) .......................................................................

Juan de Fuca h orne, Douglas (l) ..............................................c oquitlam–b urke Mountain h oward, r ob (l) .....................................................................r ichmond c entre h untington, Vicki (ind.) ..................................................................Delta South James, c arole (nDP) .........................................................Victoria–b eacon h ill k aragianis, Maurine (nDP) ........................................e squimalt–r oyal r oads k rog, l eonard (nDP) ........................................................................... n anaimo k rueger, h on. k evin (l) ..................................... k amloops–South Thompson kwan, Jenny Wai ching (nDP) ...........................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant l ake, t erry (l) .....................................................k amloops–n orth Thompson l ali, h arry (nDP) ..........................................................................Fraser-n icola l ee, r ichard t . (l) .......................................................................burnaby n orth l ekstrom, h on. blair (l) .......................................................

Peace r iver South l es, John (l) .........................................................................................c hilliwack l etnick, n orm (l) ........................................................k elowna–l ake c ountry MacDiarmid, h on. Margaret (l) ..................................... Vancouver-Fairview Macdonald, n orm (nDP) ....................................c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke Mcintyre, Joan (l) ..................................................West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Mcn eil, h on.

Mary (l) .................................................Vancouver–False creek Mcr ae, Don (l) ............................................................................. c omox Valley Mungall, Michelle (nDP) ..........................................................n elson-creston Penner, hon. barry (l) ............................................................c hilliwack-h ope Pimm, Pat (l) ..........................................................................Peace r iver n orth Polak, h on.

Mary (l) ...............................................................................l angley Popham, l ana (nDP) ...................................................................Saanich South r alston, bruce (nDP) ................................................................

Surrey-Whalley r eid, l inda (l) .............................................................................r ichmond e ast r outley, bill (nDP) .................................................................. c owichan Valley r outley, Doug (nDP) ............................................n anaimo–n orth c owichan r ustad, John (l) ........................................................................... n echako l akes Sather, Michael (nDP) ......................................... Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows Simons, n icholas (nDP) ...................................

Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast Simpson, bob (nDP) ...................................................................c ariboo n orth Simpson, Shane (nDP) .....................................................Vancouver-hastings Slater, John (l) ..............................................................boundary-Similkameen Stewart, h on. ben (l) ........................................................... Westside-kelowna Stilwell, h on. Moira (l) ...................................................... Vancouver-l angara Sultan, r alph (l) .....................................................

West Vancouver–capilano Thomson, hon. Steve (l) ........................................................k elowna-Mission Thorne, Diane (nDP) .................................................c oquitlam-Maillardville Thornthwaite, Jane (l) .......................................... n orth Vancouver–Seymour t revena, c laire (nDP) .................................................................... n orth island van Dongen, John (l) .............................................................a bbotsford South Y amamoto, hon. n aomi (l) ................................. n orth Vancouver–l onsdale Y ap, hon.

John (l) .............................................................r ichmond-Steveston liS t o F MeMberS bY riD in G a bbotsford-Mission .............................................................h on. r andy h awes a bbotsford South .....................................................................John van Dongen a bbotsford West ...................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc a lberni–Pacific r im ..........................................................................

Scott Fraser boundary-Similkameen .....................................................................John Slater burnaby–Deer l ake ................................................................... k athy c orrigan burnaby-e dmonds ......................................................................... r aj c houhan burnaby-l ougheed ............................................................................ h arry bloy burnaby n orth .............................................................................. r ichard t . l ee c ariboo-c hilcotin ........................................................................Donna barnett c ariboo n orth ................................................................................ bob Simpson c hilliwack ...............................................................................................

John l es c hilliwack-h ope ...................................................................h on. barry Penner c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke .................................................. n orm Macdonald c omox Valley.................................................................................... Don Mcr ae c oquitlam–b urke Mountain .....................................................Douglas h orne c oquitlam-Maillardville...............................................................

Diane Thorne c owichan Valley ................................................................................ bill r outley Delta n orth ......................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ...............................................................................Vicki h untington e squimalt–r oyal r oads .....................................................Maurine k aragianis Fort l angley–a ldergrove ...................................................h on. r ich c oleman Fraser-n icola........................................................................................ h arry l ali Juan de Fuca .....................................................................................John h organ k amloops–n orth Thompson .............................................................t erry l ake k amloops–South Thompson ............................................ h on. k evin k rueger k elowna–l ake c ountry ...............................................................n orm l etnick k elowna-Mission .............................................................. h on.

Steve Thomson k ootenay e ast .......................................................................... h on. bill bennett k ootenay West ............................................................................ k atrine c onroy l angley.......................................................................................h on. Mary Polak Maple r idge–Mission .....................................................................

Marc Dalton Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................Michael Sather n anaimo ......................................................................................... l eonard k rog n anaimo–n orth c owichan ......................................................... Doug r outley n echako l akes ..................................................................................

John r ustad n elson-creston ........................................................................Michelle Mungall n ew Westminster ..............................................................................Dawn black n orth c oast....................................................................................... Gary c oons n orth island .................................................................................. c laire t revena n orth Vancouver–l onsdale ........................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto n orth Vancouver–Seymour .................................................

Jane Thornthwaite o ak bay–Gordon h ead ............................................................ h on. ida c hong Parksville-Qualicum ..................................................................... r on c antelon Peace r iver n orth ................................................................................

Pat Pimm Peace r iver South ...............................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Penticton................................................................................... h on. bill barisoff Port c oquitlam ..........................................................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–c oquitlam .............................................................h on. iain black Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast ................................................. n icholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie .............................................................h on.

Pat bell Prince George–Valemount ...................................................h on. Shirley bond r ichmond c entre ............................................................................ r ob h oward r ichmond e ast ................................................................................... l inda r eid r ichmond-Steveston .................................................................... h on. John Y ap Saanich n orth and the islands ........................................... h on.

Murray c oell Saanich South ................................................................................ l ana Popham Shuswap ...............................................................................h on. George a bbott Skeena .............................................................................................. r obin a ustin Stikine .......................................................................................

Doug Donaldson Surrey-c loverdale .................................................................h on. k evin Falcon Surrey-Fleetwood ...............................................................................Jagrup brar Surrey–Green t imbers ..................................................................Sue h ammell Surrey-n ewton ................................................................................. h arry b ains Surrey-Panorama ..................................................................Stephanie c adieux Surrey-t ynehead ...........................................................................

Dave S. h ayer Surrey-Whalley.............................................................................. bruce r alston Surrey–White r ock ....................................................................... Gordon h ogg Vancouver-Fairview ............................................. h on. Margaret MacDiarmid Vancouver–False creek ........................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Vancouver-Fraserview ..............................................................h on. k ash h eed Vancouver-hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-kensington .................................................................Mable e lmore Vancouver-kingsway..........................................................................a drian Dix Vancouver-l angara ............................................................. h on. Moira Stilwell Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .........................................

Jenny Wai ching kwan Vancouver–Point Grey .................................................h on.

Gordon c ampbell Vancouver-Quilchena ..........................................................h on. c olin h ansen Vancouver–West end ................................................................Spencer h erbert Vernon-Monashee ...............................................................................eric Foster Victoria–b eacon h ill .......................................................................c arole James Victoria–Swan l ake.........................................................................r ob Fleming West Vancouver–capilano ............................................................. r alph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ........................................................

Joan Mcintyre Westside-kelowna ...................................................................h on. ben Stewart Party Standings: l iberal 49; n ew Democratic 35; independent 1

CONTENTS t uesday, november 17, 2009 a fternoon Sitting Page Routine Business introductions by Members ..................................................................................................................................................... 2423 Statements (Standing order 25b) ......................................................................................................................................... 2423 blader unners youth employment program J. kwan South o kanagan r ehabilitation c entre for o wls J.

Slater r itchie bros. a uctioneers r . c houhan k amloops a irport expansion t . l ake Women's ski jumping at olympic Games D. black r esponse to house fire by Macey Finlay-Podner M. Dalton oral Questions ......................................................................................................................................................................... 2425 c losing of adolescent mental health unit in Fraser Valley a. Dix h on. k. Falco n M. Sather r elease of police video of c layton Willey b. Simpson h on. k. h eed M. Farnworth l egal aid funding for Frank Paul inquiry case J. kwan h on.

M. de Jong l. k rog Government action on poverty reduction M. k aragianis h on. M. Polak M. e lmore Gravel extraction from Fraser r iver V . huntington h on. b. Penner Petitions .................................................................................................................................................................................... 2430 l. Popha m G. c oons S.

Fraser Orders of the Day c ommittee of the Whole h ouse ............................................................................................................................................ 2430 bill 18 — a ssistance to Shelter a ct S. Simpson h on. r . c oleman r eport and Third r eading of bills ......................................................................................................................................... 2451 bill 18 — a ssistance to Shelter a ct

c ommittee of the Whole h ouse ............................................................................................................................................ 2452 bill 14 — h ousing and Social Development Statutes a mendment a ct, 2009 S.

Simpson h on. r . c oleman b. r alston r eport and Third r eading of bills ......................................................................................................................................... 2461 bill 14 — h ousing and Social Development Statutes a mendment a ct, 2009 Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 2461 e stimates: Ministry of a ttorney General h on. M. de Jong J. kwan l. k rog

2423 tueSD a Y , noVeMber 17, 2009 The h ouse met at 1:33 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Routine Business Introductions by Members R. Chouhan: t oday in the gallery we have Mr. Stephen branch, vice-president of marketing and sales strategy from r itchie bros. Please join me to welcome him. R. Austin: t oday we have a number of guests join- ing us in the gallery from the l angley school district to meet with opposition Mla s to share their concerns about what's going on there. The first person is bruce n orthway, who is a P ac president.

We also have two members from cuP e l ocal 1851, a xel h oelterhoff and Dale t renaman. We also have the president of cuP e 1260, Donna Mason, joined by k elly Dussin, also from cuP e 1260. We have Susan Fonseca, president of the l angley t eachers a ssociation, and Gail c haddock-c ostello, vice-president of the l angley t eachers a ssociation. Please will all members of the h ouse join me in making them most welcome. J. Horgan: h on.

Speaker, it's a pleasure to rise and introduce two guests of mine who had the privilege of being in your office today and had the privilege of ac- tually going up to the home of the ink-stained wretches in the press gallery. it was a delightful visit. n o harm was done. i have all my fingers and toes. With us are Shawn o'h ara and his spouse, e lizabeth o'h ara.

They bought an auction item at John Stubbs middle school to come and have lunch and meet the good people of the l egislature. i hope that we will be as entertaining as possible. [1335] Statements (Standing Order 25B) blaD erunnerS Youth e MPlo YMent Pro Gra M J. Kwan: our community had a dream 15 years ago, a dream of inclusivity, a dream to give voice to at-risk youth in a tangible way, a dream that is rooted in the belief that everyone should be given the opportunity to maximize their potential. This dream became reality for some 3,000 young people under a program called blader unners.

Since 1994 blader unners has provided support, helped place participants at construction sites and secured train- ing opportunities for them. GM Place was the first private partner in this program. one of the early participants was c hris c ardinal, who started with the program in 1996. t oday he is a r ed Seal–certified cement mason with boSa c onstruction. Working together, developers, labour unions and civil society organizations have proven that at-risk youth ages 15 to 30 will succeed if given the opportunity.

With an 88 percent job placement rate, 32 percent female par- ticipation rate and 66 percent aboriginal participation, blader unners is an incredible success story. in the late 1990s blader unners was given the PeP n et award in Washington D.c., for excellence in youth em- ployment programs. t oday blader unners is sought after by cities like n ew orleans, c algary and t oronto as a model for community economic development. i would like to recognize the founders of the program — people like Jim Green, who conceptualized it, and Garry Jobin, who has been a tireless advocate for young people in the Downtown e astside.

Garry has vouched for the participants in court, he has shown up at their doorsteps to make sure they get to work on time, and his cell phone is on 24 hours a day. r ecognition is also in order for all the partners, job co- ordinators and the blader unners who went through the apprenticeship and got their trades training. i would like to ask all members of the h ouse to join me in thanking them for their hard work, dedication and commitment and for the wonderful success of the program over the last 15 years and, hopefully, many more years to come. South okana Gan rehabilitation centre For o WlS J.

Slater: i am fortunate to live in and represent a very unique area. The o kanagan and Similkameen along with the Thompson valleys are home to 14 of the 15 owls that are found in british c olumbia, which can be seen at various times throughout the year. Sorco , the South o kanagan r ehabilitation c entre for o wls, is a non-profit society whose mandate is conserva- tion through rehabilitation and education, for orphaned birds of prey. k en Fujino is the centre's facility manager, along with a volunteer board of directors whose purpose is to treat and care for injured and orphaned birds.

These birds are also known as raptors. Some examples are owls, hawks, eagles, vultures, falcons and osprey. once the birds are capable, they are released back into the wild, and 98 percent of all orphaned chicks that are brought into the centre have been released. t wo great horned owl fledglings have been nursed since February 2009 and were recently set free, one in k elowna and one in n aramata.

Several species of birds that have been restored to health at the centre are red- listed, which means they are facing global extinction. british c olumbia's only endangered owl, the burrowing owl, is found in the o kanagan grasslands. n ot only does

british c olumbia Debates2424 t uesday, n ovember 17, 2009 the well-known burrowing o wl Winery pay tribute to its distinctive bird by naming their winery after it; the owner, Jim Wyse, has volunteered his time and skills to assist in making habitats for these endangered birds. a s mentioned before, Sorco is a non-profit soci- ety that has been operating since 1987. l ike any other society through the province, most of the work is done by volunteers who struggle with funding their organ- ization and activities. u nfortunately, Sorco is not a zoo, and visitors are not able to drop in. h owever, they do visit schools and various organizations regularly as part of the society's educational program.

They do have an adopt-an-owl program and will be looking for addi- tional members and fundraising opportunities. i encourage everybody to go to www.sorco.org to learn more. ritchie broS. auctioneerS R. Chouhan: r itchie bros. a uctioneers is one com- pany that does not need much introduction. e stablished in 1958, it held its first auction sale in the boy Scouts hall in k elowna.

From a very humble start, r itchie bros. has become the world's largest auctioneer. [1340] t oday r itchie bros. has over 450,000 customers in over 200 countries. in 2008 its gross auction proceeds totalled $3.57 billion a merican. n ow it is expanding its base to c hina and india, a true success story. on o ctober 29 at the grand opening of its brand-new global headquarters in burnaby-e dmonds, i had the privilege to meet with Mr. Dave r itchie, the only one of the three founding brothers still actively involved in the company.

Mr. r itchie and Mr. bob a rmstrong, the chief operating officer, gave me the tour of their beautiful and environmentally friendly headquarters. it's truly a state-of-the-art building. it has a floor area of 160,000 square feet, which includes a fitness cen- tre, cafeteria and in-house day care centre. The design includes lots of natural materials, such as the timber columns, laminated wood beams supporting skylight ceilings at the top of a three-storey atrium. The management has taken every possible step to make the workplace comfortable and enjoyable for its 312 employees.

Mr. a rmstrong told me that one of the company's objectives is to empower its employees and address environmental issues. r itchie bros. has proved to be a very responsible corporate citizen. i hope Mr. Stephen branch, whom i introduced earlier, has enjoyed his trip to the l egislature. Mr. Speaker, i wish r itchie bros. every success and a very bright future. kaMloo PS airPort eXPanS ion T. Lake: i rise today to speak about a tremendous success story in the k amloops-Thompson region that began over five years ago and is one of the keys to the economic success of the region.

The opening of the newly expanded k amloops a irport at Fulton Field was held a few weeks ago, and it marks a new era in connectivity. a longer runway allows non-stop flights to all parts of n orth a merica, facilitating business travel, helping fam- ilies and friends see each other more often. it creates a safer and more efficient provincial wildfire control cen- tre. in fact, a record 765 aircraft movements were logged at the k amloops a irport in a 24-hour period as crews battled wildfires throughout b.c. a larger terminal now greets historic volumes of pas- sengers who are treated to building accents and beautiful art that reflect the culture and history of the Shuswap people.

Double-digit increases in passengers put k am- loops a irport in very exclusive company as one of the few growing air terminals in canada. Visitors from around the world can now fly into k am- loops to ski at the renowned Sun Peaks r esort, home to the a ustrian men's downhill ski team, or to golf at c an- ada's best course at t obiano. r esidents can connect to cities and resorts the world over using the three airlines that now serve the airport.

Fulton Field was named after wing commander John "Moose" Fulton, awarded the Distinguished Flying c ross for his brave bomber missions that claimed his life in 1942. i think the Moose would be proud of the little air - field that has grown to be such an integral part of the economic and social well-being of his hometown. t he c oquihalla h ighway opened up the k amloops region in the 1980s, and now the expansion of k am- loops a irport at Fulton Field provides the next level in safe and efficient connectivity to the t hompson valleys. i hope the h ouse will join me in congratulat- ing the k amloops a irport a uthority Society and its president, city councillor John o'Fee, for having the vision and determination to complete this tremen- dous project.

Wo Men'S S ki Ju MPin G at ol YMPic G a Me S D. Black: The 2010 o lympic Games present an oppor- tunity for us to showcase british c olumbia to the world. o ur province and c anada will be presented to the en- tire world audience through the international media. u nfortunately, the image of the Vancouver games is be- ing tarnished by gender discrimination. i was dismayed last week to see that women ski jump- ers have once again been denied the opportunity to compete on an equal footing with men.

Ski-jumping is the only winter o lympic event that does not include a competition for women. e ven though c anada has a c harter of r ights and Freedoms that prohibits gender discrimination, the female ski jumpers have been told

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, n ovember 17, 2009 2425 that our courts have no authority to ensure they are able to participate in the o lympic Games being held in b.c. and funded by c anadian taxes. [1345] one of the stated missions in the o lympic charter is "to encourage and support the promotion of women in sport at all levels and in all structures with a view to implementing the principle of equality for men and women." Sadly, for women ski jumpers, these words are meaningless and ring hollow. o ver 130 women from 16 countries are registered as international ski-jump competitors, and hundreds more compete in local and national competitions. h owever, their achievements and the hard work they've put into developing their sport are not being recognized. it's ac- tually unbelievable that these young women are being so blatantly discriminated against in our country. a s a b.c.

Mla, i am deeply ashamed that such a pub- lic display of discrimination against women will take place in our province in a few months. i simply can- not understand how it's possible that the international o lympic c ommittee is above c anadian law and that neither our federal nor provincial governments can en- sure women's equality in sport. it's sad that the 2010 o lympics will go down in infamy as the last o lympic Games in history to discriminate against women. re SPon Se to hou Se Fire bY Mace Y Finla Y-Po Dner M.

Dalton: i would just like to take a moment to recognize the courage of a young british c olumbian who last night saved the lives of her entire family in a fire which burned down their home. Macey Finlay-Podner is only nine years old. a fire had begun to spread in their Mission home as a result of an overturned candle used during a power outage. When she woke up to the crackling sound of the fire, she slung her two-year-old brother over her shoulder and carried him safely outside.

She then ran back in, yelling and waking up her family, who escaped with only the clothes they were wearing. i talked to a Mission fire captain on the phone today, and he acknowledged that the house was burned down when the fire department arrived. The family would have perished had Macey not taken the action that she did. She told the fire chief that she had been learning about fire safety in her school. i have talked to the Solicitor General, and we will be presenting this wonderful little Missionite a certificate for her vigilance and extremely heroic action.

Would the h ouse join me in applauding this young girl and wishing her family the best as they recover from their difficult situation that could have easily been a total tragedy. Oral Questions cloS in G o F aD oleScent Mental health unit in Fra Ser Valle Y A. Dix: The Fraser h ealth a uthority will be closing its adolescent psychiatric unit in a bbotsford on n ovember 21, transferring existing patients to Surrey's existing beds and leaving much of the Fraser Valley without a critical health service. The purpose is to save $1.1 million, though the excuse is a staff shortage.

The Fraser h ealth a uthority just opened the unit before the election, and many youth and families served by the unit are distraught by its closure. c an the Minister of h ealth tell this h ouse on the basis of what medical evidence did he take the decision to close 38 percent of adolescent psychiatric beds in the Fraser h ealth a uthority? Hon. K. Falcon: The member is right to point out that there were significant staff challenges there. only two of the six beds were actually operational.

They were having a very difficult time bringing in the kind of staff neces- sary. r ather than operate at that low level of capacity, what they have done is merged that unit with the Surrey Memorial adolescent psychiatric unit to look after all the patients across the region. i realize it is not a perfect solution, but given the dif- ficulties and challenges that Fraser h ealth had in trying to properly staff the unit, it was the appropriate decision given the fact that there are not unlimited funds available. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. A.

Dix: What they're doing is leaving adolescents in need of acute care mental health services in the Fraser Valley to wait. That's what they're doing. This isn't in- novation in health care. They're doing it to save $1.1 million. That's according to the Fraser h ealth a uthority. The minister doesn't have to believe me. h ere's what Derryck Smith, former president of the bcMa, former head of psychiatry at c hildren's h ospital, professor of psychiatry at ubc, says: "This is a really unacceptable situation.

This unit just opened. t eens will continue to be underserved here. h aving young teens admitted to adult units simply does not work. it is often a dangerous situation for kids. The recruitment problem is a sham. i've never seen any evidence of a serious attempt to re- cruit doctors here." [1350] Does the minister think it's acceptable, contrary to all the evidence, to be placing children and youth in adult psychiatric beds because of the fiasco in the Fraser h ealth a uthority's budget? Hon. K. Falcon: a gain, here we have this mem- ber talking about fiascos. This is the same member, of

british c olumbia Debates2426 t uesday, n ovember 17, 2009 course, that opposed the construction of the brand-new $355 million a bbotsford r egional h ospital and c ancer c entre that we built. The issue is actually pretty straightforward. only two of the six beds have actually been in use. That is a 30 percent capacity. They've had a real challenge in hiring the specialized youth and child psychiatry officials to be able to staff the unit.

What they have done in the interim is invest $400,000 to enhance the local adolescent crisis response pro- gram and develop an adolescent day treatment program locally. n ow, those that require in-patient bed services will be utilizing, as i mentioned earlier, the ten-bed ado- lescent psychiatric unit at Surrey Memorial h ospital. That is ensuring that they are maximizing the dollars and the services to patients. Mr. Speaker: Member has a further supplemental. A.

Dix: h ere's what they said before the election: "The adolescent psychiatric unit is of major significance, be- cause the only other one in the region is in Surrey and is usually full. r ight now if a teen in the Fraser Valley needs in-patient care, there's usually a long wait, and they often, in the end, end up on an adult unit." That's what they said before the election when they were doing press releases, when they were announcing the hospital and opening the hospital that was built at 300 beds that's currently operating at 236 beds. That's what they said before the election.

This is risky for youth. it's risky for health care. c an the minister explain to the community, to the families of the patients and to the public why it's abandoning its election pledges to adolescents in need of care in the Fraser h ealth a uthority? Hon. K. Falcon: it's always interesting to hear the member opposite lecture government about the short- age of qualified medical professionals in our health system. a s the member would well know…. in fact, he was chief of staff to the nDP government at the time that actually did not add a single… interjections. Hon. K.

Falcon: Just a minute. …new training space for doctors or nurses at any time in the 1990s for the entire decade — not one. So what does that mean? a ll the listening audience and those that are watching television will know that to train med- ical professionals, especially doctors, takes up to seven or eight years and sometimes longer. What we have done is doubled the number of training spaces for doctors, doubled the number of training spaces for nurses. o ver 15,000 new nurses have been trained and educated.

That is why i won't take any criticism from that former chief of staff of an n DP government that cut spaces for professionals. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. Member. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. M. Sather: Well, here's what's a fiasco. The minister wants to talk about a fiasco. it's opening a bunch of new beds, opening a new hospital and then less than a year later closing them. That's a fiasco for you. n ow, the minister will know that adolescent mental health services are shared between his ministry and the Ministry of c hildren and Family Development.

There's also a joint committee that deals with these issues. c an the minister tell this h ouse: did that committee approve of his decision to close these beds? Hon. K. Falcon: i've been trying to explain to the members opposite that over the next three years, in spite of the fact that there will be a 20 percent budget increase for the health care authorities, including Fraser h ealth — 20 percent — there are still pressures within the system. What we have asked…. [1355] interjections. Hon. K.

Falcon: Well, you know, Members, you can either listen to the answer or not listen. but if you're go- ing to yell and interrupt me, then i don't get to answer the question. interjection. Hon. K. Falcon: i'm trying to answer the question, Member. Y ou'd think the members might actually listen to the answer. i know they don't like the answer, but they have to listen to the answer. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Minister, just take your seat for a second. c ontinue, Minister. Hon. K.

Falcon: i've been very upfront with the mem- bers that in spite of a record 20 percent increase in the budgets, there are still pressures. When there are pressures in the system that require the system to say we need more than a 20 percent increase, we ask them to do better with the dollars they have. So when they have a psychiatric….

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, n ovember 17, 2009 2427 interjection. Hon. K. Falcon: Just a minute. When only two of the six beds available at the a bbotsford r egional h ospital are being utilized, when they know there is a real challenge in spite of recruiting internationally and nationally for child youth psycholo- gists, then it actually makes sense to ensure that those patients can be moved to the ten-bed unit at Surrey Memorial while they add new services locally to deal with them on an out-patient basis. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. M.

Sather: W ell, the Fraser V alley is getting shafted by this minister. First he closed addiction services for youth, and now he closes psychiatric services for youth. h e has this false premise about lack of recruitment when the doc- tor, the ubc psychiatry professor who i wager knows a lot more about psychiatric services than the minister does, says he's seen no effort whatsoever to recruit for that hospital. a year ago Fraser h ealth was emphasizing how critical this adolescent psychiatric unit was. it described the unit as significant. it was one of only two in the l ower Mainland.

Without it, youth are left without any help or they go to adult services, which is also dangerous for them. instead of defending a program closure that's based on a false premise, will the minister listen to clinical ex- perts and reconsider this bad decision? Hon. K.

Falcon: The member opposite talks about how hard done his area is. i certainly didn't hear those comments when they tripled the emergency department at r idge Meadows h ospital. i didn't hear any criticisms from the member. c ertainly, i've heard no criticisms now that there's a new Pitt r iver bridge, a seven-lane Pitt r iver bridge and a new Golden e ars bridge, which allows connections between the new $355 million a bbotsford h ospital and c ancer c entre. n o — suspi- ciously quiet on those issues. i find that interesting.

The fact of the matter is, you know, that these mem- bers, in a $15 billion health system, like to run around and see if they can find something here or there to try and suggest to the public that there are cuts when there are increases. The fact of the matter is a tripled emer - gency department in that member's hospital, right in that member's riding. The fact of the matter is a new $355 million a bbotsford h ospital and c ancer c are c entre, the first hospital in british c olumbia in 35 years, built by this government. relea Se o F Police ViDeo o F cla Yton Wille Y B.

Simpson: on July 21, 2003, c lay Willey was ap- prehended by the Prince George rcMP , and he died while in police custody. a coroner's inquest into his death revealed that Mr. Willey was hog-tied, dropped from a height onto his face and chest and tasered sev- eral times by police while he was bound. There are three different video files of this incident, and concerns were raised yesterday that key moments have been edited out of those videos. Will the Solicitor General commit today to release the full unedited versions of these videos to the public? Hon. K.

Heed: This is a very, very tragic event, a tra- gedy for the family to view the video and relive what Mr. Willey experienced during that time. it's also tragic for the police officers, because nobody wants an event to conclude that particular way. [1400] i'm advised that the head of the rcMP for british c olumbia has reached out to the native leaders. i am ad- vised that they have arranged to meet with the family on n ovember 30 to discuss the incident, to view the video that's available and determine what the next steps are.

This is, in my view, an appropriate course of action to ensure that the family's wishes are adhered to. B. Simpson: Mr. Speaker, 6½ years after the incident, e division has finally conceded to sit down with the family, the b.c. civil l iberties a ssociation and the u nion of b.c. indian c hiefs to review the entire file. i spoke with one of the family members today, and she said they don't need to see the video again. The family already has that embedded in their minds. What they want is for the public to see the video, and they see no reason to wait.

The family wants the video released to the public in its full, unedited fashion and do not need to wait till the end of the month to have that happen. Will the Solicitor General commit today to adhere to the family's wishes and have that video released to the public? Hon. K. Heed: a gain, this is a very, very tragic and delicate event that has taken place — circumstances that have to be dealt with in an orderly fashion. i believe that the responsible thing and the respectful thing is that the rcMP sit down with the family.

They've arranged a date, i'm advised, of n ovember 30 to discuss this unfortunate incident, to review the circumstances surrounding it, to review the video and work with the family to determine what the next steps are. M. Farnworth: This tragedy is something that has happened too many times in british c olumbia and that has left the public too often with questions that are un- answered. one of the things that is clear is that the public must have confidence in investigations that have taken place and in the transparency of investigations, and that all the information is on the table.

british c olumbia Debates2428 t uesday, n ovember 17, 2009 My question is to the Solicitor General. h e stood in this h ouse and said he wants to respect the family's wishes. Well, the family's wishes are clear. They want to see that video released so the public understands what happened. Will he commit to make sure that that is done? Hon. K. Heed: We truly believe in transparent and accountable processes, but i can tell you that in this very, very unfortunate set of circumstances we want to work with the family.

We want to ensure that the family is very well aware of what the circumstances were that have taken place surrounding this unfortunate incident, what the video does show and, again, work with the family on next steps to ensure, truly, the family wants this video released, as we move forward. Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. M. Farnworth: The family believes it's in the public interest. The public has seen too many of these situa- tions take place in this province.

The public wants to know that all the information is on the table during in- vestigations and that transparency is one of the first and foremost priorities. So my question is to the Solicitor General again. The family believes it's in the public interest for the video to be made public. Will the Solicitor General commit and ensure that those wishes in fact take place and that that video is released to the public? [1405] Hon. K.

Heed: We need to respect the family wishes here. i am advised that the rcMP is sitting down with the family on n ovember 30 to determine what the best, most respectful course of action is in regards to these unfortunate circumstances. a fter n ovember 30 i'm sure we'll have a clearer direc- tion on where we want to go with this particular video, based on what the family's wishes are, and that the pri- vacy concerns have been met, any legal concerns have been met and investigative concerns. leGal aiD FunD in G For Frank Paul in Quir Y ca Se J.

Kwan: Well, the family has spoken on that case. h ere's another family that's calling on the government to act. The opposition has learned that yesterday the government has withdrawn funding for legal represen- tation of the family of Frank Paul and the First n ations l eadership c ouncil of b.c. in the government's ongoing legal challenge of the Frank Paul inquiry. c an the a ttorney General explain to this h ouse: why is this government going back on its commitment to the family of Frank Paul? Hon.

M. de Jong: i want to assure the member and all members of the h ouse that the government takes this matter and these matters very seriously, has endeav- oured to ensure that there is a process in place, that the interests of all parties are properly respected and will continue to take that approach to what has also been a very tragic episode. Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. J.

Kwan: The a ttorney General didn't answer my question. l egal representation for the Frank Paul family and the First n ations l eadership c ouncil at this junc- ture of the Frank Paul inquiry is essential to getting at the truth and essential to finding out what happened in the death of Frank Paul. it has been more than ten years. Why is this govern- ment trying to stop the family from accessing justice, and why is this government trying to stop the family from finally getting closure in the death of Frank Paul? Hon.

M. de Jong: in fact, that's not the case. a t every step along the way, members of the h ouse will know that the government has endeavoured to ensure that there is an opportunity to fully participate, that the facts that led to these tragic circumstances are before those adjudicat- ing them and before the public. That continues to be the approach that the government intends to take. L. Krog: The cost to allow this family to continue to be represented in this most awful of circumstances is very small in comparison to this budget.

So i'm ask- ing the a ttorney General: will he today agree to restore the funding so that the Frank Paul family and the b.c. leadership council can be represented? Hon. M. de Jong: The member will know that at every step along the way we have endeavoured to en- sure that there is a means by which the information relating to what has taken place is made available, that there is meaningful participation. That continues to be the principle that will guide us as we move forward on this matter. Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. L.

Krog: it's a very simple request. it's a very sim- ple question. it's a yes-or-no answer. c an the a ttorney General do the right thing today and agree to continue to provide the funding so that this family — in one of the most well-known and notorious cases in this province's history — might get the representation they deserve. Hon. M. de Jong: The member knows that the gov- ernment hasn't been in any way reluctant in the past to ensure that there is meaningful participation and a

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, n ovember 17, 2009 2429 meaningful opportunity for people to participate in the determination of what took place in these tragic circum- stances. That has been the guiding principle in the past and will be the guiding principle going forward. Go VernMent action on Po Vert Y re Duction M. Karagianis: Food banks c anada today released its HungerCount 2009. it shows that once again a record number of british c olumbians were relying on food banks here in this province. in March, during the count, almost 90,000 people relied on food banks for assistance.

More than 30 percent of those people were children. Y et this government refuses to follow the lead of provinces like Manitoba, Quebec, ontario and n ewfoundland, which are all implementing poverty reduction strategies. [1410] My question today is to the Minister of c hildren and Families. h ow many children and families have to deal with hunger in this province before the government will institute a poverty reduction strategy? Hon. M.

Polak: c ertainly, after reviewing the report, we're aware that not only is british c olumbia facing challenges due to this economic downturn and the re- sulting loss of jobs that impact families, but in fact, if you take a look at our neighbouring province of a lberta, they have seen an increase of 61 percent in usage of food banks compared to british c olumbia's 15 percent.

We recognize, certainly, that there are challenges out there for families, and our ministry, along with the Ministry of h ousing and Social Development, continues to monitor caseloads very carefully and respond accord- ingly as we see those needs arise. Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. M. Karagianis: i'm actually not talking about a lberta. i'm talking about british c olumbia and what exists here.

More than 27,000 children relied on food banks to fill their bellies in the month of March. u nder this govern- ment, we've had the highest rate of child poverty for six years in a row, and now, this year, we have record-break- ing numbers of families looking to food banks to meet their needs. The n ew Democrat government in Manitoba, l iberal governments in Quebec and ontario, a c onservative government in n ewfoundland….

Provinces of all polit- ical stripes are taking concrete action to reduce poverty. a gain to the Minister of c hildren and Families: when will this government commit that british c olumbia will implement a poverty reduction strategy? Hon. M.

Polak: Well, i am very pleased to report to this h ouse about the most recent successes we've had in reducing child poverty. one of these comes from one of the most recent reports — September 10, 2009, the mar - ket basket measure report on low income in c anada. it reports that not only have we seen a 41 percent decline in overall poverty since 2000, but in the single year of 2006 to 2007 that rate dropped by 18 percent. M. Elmore: Despite this most recent statistic, six years in a row british c olumbia has had the highest rates of child poverty, and we continue, despite those statistics…. interjections. Mr.

Speaker: Just take your seat. Members. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. c ontinue, Member. M. Elmore: Despite that statistic, b.c . remains to have the highest level of child poverty. That's the reality in b.c . The minimum wage has remained stagnant for eight years, social assistance hasn't kept pace with increasing costs and 10,000 households are waiting for affordable housing. This food bank report shows the number of people using food banks in this province has jumped by 15 per- cent in just one year: 27,000 children in the one month of March relying on food banks.

My question is to the Minister of c hildren and Families. Will this government commit to implementing a poverty reduction strategy today? Hon. M. Polak: a s a result of a number of initiatives that we've taken, we've seen those rates go down. i can talk about a couple. in 2007 we raised the rates across the board for all clients of social assistance, giving them some of the highest rates in all of c anada. We've also budgeted an additional $160 million this year for what we anticipate in caseload increases. it's important for the members, if they really want to tackle child poverty, to look at the numbers.

When we compare to other provinces — and they love to trot out "last place in c anada" — we're talking about a 0.1 percent difference. [1415] The reality is that in terms of child poverty, using the most recent report on the market basket measure, we have seen a drop from '06…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Minister, just take your seat. Members.

british c olumbia Debates2430 t uesday, n ovember 17, 2009 interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members on both sides of the h ouse, please. c ontinue, Minister. Hon. M. Polak: if we're going to be serious about tackling child poverty, i would recommend that the members be serious about doing their research. When we take a look at the measures that the government of c anada and other agencies send us, it is clear the initia- tives we've undertaken are working. For children under the age of 18, Members, in one year's time — '06 to '07 — the poverty rate dropped by 17 percent. Gra Vel eX traction Fro M Fra Ser riVer V .

Huntington: l ast week emergency management b.c . announced that the province will proceed with gravel ex- traction along unspecified portions of the lower Fraser r iver from January to March 2010. The province has in- sisted that this is all about public safety and reducing the flood risk. h owever, a former regional director with the Department of Fisheries and o ceans has stated that there is a general lack of information that demonstrates that gravel removal has reduced or will reduce flood hazard.

Similarly, the federal environment commissioner said in a report earlier this year that engineering and scientific studies concluded there was no reduction in the flood profile after gravel removal and that gravel removal would not significantly affect the potential for flooding. My question is to the Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General. What scientific studies has his min- istry used or conducted to justify the removal of gravel for flood protection measures? interjection. Hon. B. Penner: Thank you for the intervention from the member for Delta n orth.

The b.c. government is committed to flood protec- tion, and certainly, given the recent weather events, the last 72 hours, we can see that our investments are paying dividends. it's important that we continue to maintain our flood protection programs in british c olumbia but that we do it in a balanced way. in the 1990s we know that the other party did put a moratorium on gravel removal and walked away from a federal-provincial funding program for flood protection in the province. o ur government ran on a commitment to restore our protection programs and to return to a well-managed, environmentally sustainable and bal- anced gravel removal program in order to advance flood protection.

That has been our commitment, and that has been what we've delivered. [end of question period.] Petitions L. Popham: i rise to present a petition. i present the h ouse with a petition signed by hundreds of people op- posing the hS t . G. Coons: i'd like to seek leave to introduce a petition. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. G. Coons: i present the h ouse with a petition signed by hundreds of people opposing the hS t and wanting to scrap the implementation. S. Fraser: i also would like to present a petition. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. S.

Fraser: i present the h ouse with petitions signed by hundreds of people from a lberni–Pacific r im and Parksville-Qualicum opposing the hS t . Orders of the Day Hon. M. de Jong: i call in c ommittee a, c ommittee of Supply, for the information of members, the estimates of the Ministry of a ttorney General; and in this cham- ber, committee stage debate on bill 18, the a ssistance to Shelter a ct. [1420] Committee of the Whole House bill 18 — a SSiStance to Shelter act The h ouse in c ommittee of the Whole (Section

b) on bill 18; l. r eid in the chair. The committee met at 2:24 p.m. on

section 1. S. Simpson: c ould the minister describe for us who might constitute a "community representative"? [1425] Hon. R. Coleman: Madam c hair, just before we start, to my left is c heryl May, who's the manager of hous- ing policy for the ministry, and Molly h arrington is to my right. Molly is the assistant deputy minister of policy and research. The community representative is a person that is re- sponsible for making the call with regards to extreme weather alerts with regards to opening additional shelter.

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, n ovember 17, 2009 2431 For instance, in Victoria that is a contractor with the c ool a id Society. S. Simpson: a gain, maybe just a little bit of elaboration on a community representative. So could the minister tell us what kind of organizations might a representa- tive come from? a re there a variety of places that might identify a community representative?

Who might they be? h ow does that designation happen? is it people who are representative of some particular organizations? i'm just trying to get a clearer sense of, when it's a community representative, who it might specifically be in different communities. Vancouver is one place. it's a big city. There are lots of options. in smaller commun- ities it may mean something entirely different. Hon. R. Coleman: i'm happy to give the member the entire list after the debate today, but i'll give him some examples.

For instance, in a bbotsford it is the respon- sibility of Dave Murray, the a bbotsford c ommunity Services food bank, who sits on a committee within that community. There's a committee within every community. it in- cludes law enforcement, service providers and shelter providers who set the standards with regards to extreme weather triggers. Then they have a person that's chair of that committee that is a person that actually triggers the strategy. For instance, in abbotsford it's that individual. i'll pick another community.

Wendy t yrer, who is with e vergreen h ouse, is in c ampbell r iver. in cranbrook it's c apt. k irk Green of the Salvation a rmy. in Dawson creek it's Martha Funk or Sheila h anshaw, who are with the h ousing r esponse n etwork in that community. in Fort St. John there's another captain with the Salvation a rmy. There's a list of communities from small to large across b.c . that have these. For instance, Port h ardy has Joyce and k eith c ousins, who are Salvation a rmy, and also Sgt. chris Stewart, from the rc MP , who would make that trigger decision in that particular community.

There's a number of them across b.c ., whether it be the Sunshine c oast or t errace or Vernon or Squamish or the n orth Shore or Port c oquitlam, Port h ardy, Saltspring, Mission, n anaimo — those sort of things. So a number of these committees are already set up across the province. They trigger the shelter already to- day, and they would be the ones that would trigger. S. Simpson: Moving to the next definition, "emer - gency shelters." c ould the minister tell us whether there is an intention to distinguish different kinds of shelters?

The purpose of this question is — as we know, and we'll get into this further on in the bill, for sure — that dif- ferent shelters provide different kinds of capacity. We'll have a discussion about the no-barrier shelters, the heat shelters in Vancouver that allow people the abil- ity, obviously, to bring possessions and things with them. o ther shelters don't have that capacity. There are other distinctions among shelters. is the sense…? is "emergency shelter" just to be a catch-all, or is there truly to be any distinguishment be- tween the quality of shelters? [1430] Hon. R.

Coleman: This is a definition within the act, so it's intended to capture all government-funded and privately funded emergency shelters, including perma- nent and extreme weather beds. So all the shelters are captured under the definition of emergency shelters. S. Simpson: Moving to extreme weather conditions.

For the purposes of this definition and determining what that is, other than…. i know that later in the legis- lation it identifies that the community representative for the minister determines whether there are extreme weather conditions. h ow, though, is this to be determined? is there some particular meteorological trigger or something that trig- gers what a community representative for the minister looks at to determine that this is an extreme weather condition for the purposes of this legislation? Hon. R.

Coleman: The extreme weather conditions are when the weather conditions are set out in an extreme weather response plan that is filed with b.c . h ousing or, for areas without plans, the weather conditions that would be prescribed in regulation. S. Simpson: it says that in relation, the weather re- sponse applies, and it talks about the conditions and a plan. Then it says that "any prescribed conditions that are not addressed or identified in the e xtreme Weather r esponse Plan, or (

b) in relation to a geographical area to which no e xtreme Weather r esponse Plan applies…." it says that there are conditions where, if there isn't a plan, there's some determination of what the weather is. There's something that triggers that when there's not a plan. What triggers it? Hon. R. Coleman: Where the committees exist in communities, we had the plans in place. e ach commun- ity is a bit different, because the committee locally has made the decisions. i will give you an example, using burnaby, where their extreme weather response working group would have this definition.

Weather conditions are deemed severe enough to present a substantial threat to life or health of homeless persons. Factors include, in burnaby, temperatures at or below minus 2 degrees c elsius with zero with windchill — temperatures are not absolute and are flexible to other weather conditions — or freezing rain or significant snow accumulation or severe wind warning.

british c olumbia Debates2432 t uesday, n ovember 17, 2009 So what would happen outside of not having those committees…. b.c. h ousing would be monitoring what the weather conditions were in communities across b.c. where this may be necessary. They will be encouraging, obviously, additional com- munities to get their own extreme weather committees together and work with us. They're working, through the regulation that they're working on, to be able to give them the flexibility to make that call or to advise the minister when that call has to be made when there are communities that don't have a committee. S.

Simpson: i appreciate the minister's comments that those communities that don't have a plan in place will be encouraged to do what it takes to make the plan or put a plan in place. We can probably expect that to some degree, there are a significant number or at least a number of communities that for whatever reason may not have a plan in place.

The minister wants to tell me that we can deal with this question later on under the alerts. i'll be happy to deal with it there. but where that plan doesn't exist, where it's not clear who the community representative is, then what would define an extreme weather condition in those communities? or would it just be a discussion? Would that be a case where the minister would have to talk to whoever he would talk to and then make a deter- mination on what extreme weather was? [1435] Hon. R.

Coleman: i'm happy to describe to him the work that's ongoing with regards to that before this win- ter season comes in. basically, what we've done is…. in every region of the province we have examples of trig- gering situations by community groups that are already in the process to have people in place. We're blending those triggering processes that we have in places like Fort St.

John, Dawson creek, Prince George, Quesnel or what- ever into the regions and breaking the province into two regions for the purposes of developing the regulation. one would basically be the coastal area of british c olumbia, which would stretch from certain areas of the o kanagan down to the coast and up through the interior because of the different humidities and what have you. The second would be the north and central part of the province and the eastern r ockies.

That will then come into the development of a regulation that will have two measurements in areas where there aren't committees in place using the information we have amassed from the groups we already have that have them in place. Then the regulation will be developed as a standard for that to be used by b.c. h ousing with commun- ity groups in situations when the weather gets to those levels in those communities, because they don't have a community group. That would then allow them to be able to make the decision, because that particular com- munity doesn't have the triggering mechanism or what have you.

The regulations are in development now on that basis and should be completed fairly shortly after the legislation is completed. The regulations would go forward based on that type of information. if you take, for instance, the Fra- ser V alley, you would look at l angley, a bbotsford, Surrey, c hilliwack, Mission and say: "What are their community plans triggering?" i don't think there are many in that area, but let's say one community — for instance, Pitt Meadows — didn't have a triggering mechanism and didn't have a com- munity group that was doing it.

Y ou could say: "Well, that's the average of this area, so this is the triggering mechanism for this area." This is the standard in place, so when it hits here, it hits there too. S. Simpson: Moving to "e xtreme Weather r esponse Plan," the next definition, it says here in the legislation that it "means a current plan, filed with bc h ousing, of a person who has entered into an agreement." c ould the minister tell us: who might be that person? Hon. R.

Coleman: The term "person" in this context means the broad group of people that would be making the decision with the chair, which obviously triggers it with regards to making the submission to b.c. h ousing. For instance, in each of these communities there is somebody who is actually the person that makes the deci- sion. but the person in this case is the community groups that have come together to build the plan and to have in place the measurements they will measure by when they want to trigger the extreme weather response. S.

Simpson: Maybe there's some legal reason for this. but could the minister tell us why it talks about a person and not an organization or organizations? it speaks spe- cifically of an individual. i interpret it that way. Hon. R. Coleman: it's because "person" is defined in the

interpretation a ct as being more than just a single- entity person. S. Simpson: Maybe i have to go back and read the

interpretation a ct. i'll be glad to do that on another day, but not at the moment. if there's a committee in a community, wherever it may be, that deals with extreme weather…. We know, for example, in Vancouver at the heat shelters a com- mittee was struck by the city, which brought a number of different interests together. They worked, i know, with the minister and the government in developing and get- ting support for the heat shelters and putting those in place in the case of Vancouver. That committee and whatever decision that commit- tee makes — would they be, for the purposes of this,

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, n ovember 17, 2009 2433 essentially the person identified here? or would the per - son be the "community representative" identified earlier who is in fact an individual? [1440] Hon. R. Coleman: t o try and get this for the member, the "person" is the broader community group, but there is an individual who is designated by that group as the person who is the decision-maker that would inform in the case of a situation with regards to extreme weather. They've come together as a group.

They've identified, for instance, in Vancouver, when weather conditions are deemed severe enough to present a substantial threat to life or health of homeless persons.

Factors include "temperatures near zero with rainfall that makes it difficult or impossible for homeless people to remain dry; and/or sleet, freezing rain; and/or snow accumulation; and/or sustained high winds; and/or tem- peratures at or below minus 2 degrees celsius." That group of people, which are service providers and people from the community, probably law enforce- ment in Vancouver — i don't have the list here — have come up with this as the standard for that city. That's the person.

The individual, though, is identified and designated by that group as the person who actually makes that call. in the city of Vancouver, for instance, making that call is done by an individual who would represent that group. i don't have them right in front of me at this moment. i'll get that for the member. but that's essentially what it is. S. Simpson: Just so i've got this right, and i think i've got it right. in those communities that have developed a committee, you have a committee made up of any num- ber of interests that play a role.

Then there is a community representative who has that authority designated by the minister. That community representative, presumably, comes out of that committee. is it the committee that will identify and designate that community representative, and then that will be validated by the minister? o r does the minister choose who in that committee will be that community representative?

Does it come from the bottom up, or does it come from the minister down as to who it is that is that representative? a s the minister might know, it may be that the chair of the committee is not the person who is the community representative, for any number of reasons of logistics or other reasons. They have somebody else who maybe is more appropriate for that, so it may not be the chair. Who makes that decision? Does the committee give the minister a name and say, "This is our choice," or does the minister say: "h ere on your committee is the person that should do this"? Hon. R.

Coleman: n o, i don't make the decision. n either does b.c. h ousing. it is done by the group at the grassroots level that makes the decision. Y ou're right. it may not be the chair of the group. it could be an individ- ual that is designated by them. They sign an agreement with us on extreme weather conditions for additional shelter space that would be triggered. When that's trig- gered, it's triggered by them. For instance, in V ancouver it's a gentleman by the name of James Pratt.

James Pratt actually makes that call on behalf of the group of people that has established what those conditions for an extreme weather alert would be and would then trigger it based on those parameters that have been established by that community organization. S. Simpson: Moving to the definition of "person at risk," is there any distinction — i don't see it here, and i don't see it as it relates to

section 5 — from a person at risk as a person who would be identified as somebody who would be covered under the Mental h ealth a ct?

We know that under the Mental h ealth a ct police and other authorities have a certain ability to deal with issues around somebody who would be captured under the Mental h ealth a ct and may not be in a position to, necessarily, look after their own interests, versus some- body who would not be deemed to be under the Mental h ealth a ct. i assume, in large part, that the a ssistance to Shelter a ct would cover it. is there any distinction around "person at risk" be- tween somebody who would be deemed under the Mental h ealth a ct versus somebody who wouldn't? [1445] Hon. R.

Coleman: This is not intended to rewrite the Mental h ealth a ct. it's not intended to replace it. it's in- tended to have a tool to get people to come from the street to the shelter. The Mental h ealth a ct is always there as a tool for police if they wish to use it in situa- tions where they think it would be appropriate. S. Simpson: is the minister saying that a "person at risk," then, could be somebody who could be deemed or triggered under the Mental h ealth a ct or somebody who would be deemed not to be covered under the Mental h ealth a ct? it sort of is a…. it's the much broader net. Would that be a fair

interpretation? Hon. R. Coleman: There are folks on our street who wouldn't actually fall under

section 28 of the Mental h ealth a ct but who still need our help. They could be addicted to drugs or alcohol. They could be on the edges of what would be the edge of mental illness. it wouldn't maybe break them to the strength of

section 28 of the Mental h ealth a ct, but at the same time, they may need our help. in actual fact, the genesis of this bill was the death of t racey in Vancouver. The coroner actually identified that one of the challenges was that she was not at a level

british c olumbia Debates2434 t uesday, n ovember 17, 2009 of exhibiting issues that would have had her be able to be dealt with under the Mental h ealth a ct.

Section 1 approved. on

section 2. S. Simpson: h on. c hair, if we move down to, under

section 2: "(2)(

b) if, in the opinion of the community representative, extreme weather conditions exist, issue an extreme weather alert in the prescribed manner." c ould the minister tell us what the prescribed manner would be? Hon. R. Coleman: i'm going to try and take some latitude without breaking some issues with regard to the development of regulations, because there are two par - allel pieces of work going on, but until regs actually go forward to cabinet, they are still deemed to be confiden- tial. So i'm going to try and stay fairly broad, but i think i can answer the member's question. What this

section describes is a process for a commun- ity representative to issue or cancel an extreme weather alert. That extreme weather response plan, which actually is the alert, is filed with b.c . h ousing as the designate and with a community representative identified who's respon- sible for issuing the alert. That protocol is in existence by an already-existing relationship with b.c . h ousing as to how that notice goes and how it's handled.

Then the plan describes the weather conditions under which an alert would be issued for that geographic area. if that community representative believes that the weather conditions described in the plan exist, they may issue the alert, and when the alert is issued, the com- munity representative notifies all police forces within the geographical area covered by the extreme weather re- sponse plan and notifies the minister. When we refer to "notifying the minister," in this particular case it would be the crown corporation responsible. Y ou're informing b.c. h ousing.

When you're informing b.c. h ousing, you're informing, by virtue of that, the minister.

The alert is in effect until the weather conditions no longer exist and/or the alert is cancelled by the community representative. in the event that a community representa- tive fails to cancel an alert, the minister — and that would be b.c. h ousing again — may cancel the alert, and must inform the appropriate police forces of that cancellation. [1450] a s we develop the reg…. basically, we already have this in place for the alerts. t o do the next level of re- sponse, we'll use a similar format as what we're already using to do the alerts, and that is: the date of the issuance; the time of the issuance; the description of the extreme weather conditions; the description of the geographical area in which the alert has taken place; the name of the person issuing the alert — which is all required today; and then the names of the persons or entities who will be notified in the communities.

What this basically does is put into the legislation our ability to put into regulation what we're doing today under the alert side of this, saying for the purposes of this particular act…. S. Simpson: So just to confirm here. it will deal with not having to deal with this later on. is it the minister's intention that his authority will essentially…?

Will he designate, as much as the minister designates, his au- thority to Mr. r amsay and his officials at b.c. h ousing, and will they act on behalf of the minister in terms of operationalizing this legislation? of course, it all poten- tially comes back to the minister for final decisions, but will it be Mr. r amsay and his officials who will make this act operate? Hon. R. Coleman: i think it's probably better de- scribed as the ministry will make it operate.

That is authority that's given through the ministry to the crown. it's not going to be the minister making the decision. it will be delegated down to the appropriate people who are dealing with this in this particular case, because b.c. h ousing handles all the alerts and all the shelter man- agement and implementation across b.c. in cooperation with our non-profit partners. They are the logical people that would actually handle that piece as well. S.

Simpson: c an the minister tell us, to the degree possible here, what the expectations may be about how if there's a decision to…? if an extreme weather alert is put in place by the community representative and the pro- cedures are followed, what is the expectation about how that gets advertised in the community so that the com- munity is aware that that alert has been put in place? a re there resources for communications? is there expectation there will be PSa s on the radio or advertise- ments or something that kind of gets the word out that we have an alert in place? Hon. R.

Coleman: There's one thing that i've got to say here. There is actually a very good system today that does this. So there's no additional stuff being added as far as what information has to be passed. a ll of this is a system of rigour that's been established over the last two to three years, where we have the community groups, we have the designated person, we have the protocols for communication, we have that all take place. The police are informed, the community groups are informed, all the shelter providers are informed, and lo- cal newspaper and media are informed. That's how it has been working.

This is basically describing what we're al- ready doing. The maturity of the piece that is the extreme weather strategy is actually very good in many communities, and

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, n ovember 17, 2009 2435 i've been very amazed as the minister to watch this when it has been activated, even in my own community — how quickly the cops show up, the church halls open, the meals are on, and there's extra space for people in severe weather. it just — boom! — happens. it happens because these guys are all pretty well coordinated, and they know what they're doing. They immediately inform. That's all coordinated by b.c. h ousing in these proto- cols and these agreements that they have with these groups, and it's actually pretty well done. S.

Simpson: i appreciate that many of the systems that are in place…. i've certainly seen some of them operate.

There's a fair amount of coordination — local govern- ments and others. but clearly, with bill 18, the minister has introduced a very significant new wrinkle. [1455] a s the minister may or may not know, we clearly have a situation where the…. e arlier today i know that at the b.c. n on-Profit h ousing a ssociation's annual confer - ence, they passed a resolution at their annual general meeting to talk about and to make a request that there be substantive consultation with organizations there — the organizations that are members there — on the develop- ment of the regulations before they go forward. i think, as those groups realize, as regulatory changes or those things might happen, it could affect both the way those groups do their work and the way some of this works. i know they've made that request there, and that's part of my asking some of these questions about processes. i know they are going to have significant questions that they hope to be part of the conversation with the min- ister or the minister's officials, in terms of development of those regulations. a gain, it's because a significant amount of bill 18 is done through regulation. i know that there is some concern there in relation to that.

When we look at

section 2(3), it says: "The minister may cancel, in the prescribed manner, an extreme weather alert issued under this

section if the community representative does not cancel the extreme weather alert…" etc. c ould the minister tell us under what circumstances or what the thinking is here of the minister and in the legislation that…? Presumably, this would be a case where the minister, or b.c. h ousing on the minister's behalf, would overrule a community representative and make a decision to change the position of that commun- ity committee. if that's not the intention, then maybe the minister could correct me on that. but what's the think- ing for

section 2(3)? Hon. R. Coleman: We are going to consult, and we are consulting with shelter service providers and people involved in that side of the housing business. We're not necessarily going to the entire body of the b.c. non- profit, which might be operating a family social housing project in a community that has nothing to do with shel- ter or homelessness or mental health and addiction. o ur intent is to get these regs done and consulted with and dealt with so that we're ready for this winter if we pass this legislation now. i thought maybe just to contextualize this for the member….

There are 32 communities in b.c. that have plans in place. The majority of our larger communities have plans in place. a s a matter of fact, 82 percent of the communities with populations over 35,000 people have plans in place for this particular thing. t o answer the member's question, i'll just use an ex- ample. it could be for any reason, but let's say, for instance, the c omox V alley. "t emperatures near zero with rainfall that it makes it difficult or impossible for homeless people to remain dry." That's one of the conditions for their par- ticular issue with regards to their alert.

Then they add: "a nd/or sleet, freezing rain, snow accumulation, sustained high winds, temperatures at or below minus 2 c elsius. Feedback from clientele of the various facilities may also be considered." now, they trigger this. n ow, let's say the individual got sick or the weather changed and went up to 10 degrees c elsius, and they de- layed actually changing the time frame when they would actually move out of these shelters, which are there for these, basically, extreme weather triggers.

Then the ability is on the management basis — in this case, it's b.c. h ousing — to say: "Guys, the weather has changed. it's no longer required. Y ou haven't advised us of this, but we can see very clearly that this is changing. Therefore, we can use our authority to say that this trig- ger doesn't exist anymore." We don't run into it often, but i think it's probably just a management tool in case we ever did run into something like that. S. Simpson: h ow might that work? c ould that work in the reverse?

For example, if the local community thought that the extreme weather alert wasn't necessary, and the advice to the minister from his staff was that it should be continued, then does it work in reverse? c ould the minis- ter say: "no, i'm overruling, and it's going to continue"? Hon. R.

Coleman: Y eah, theoretically, i suppose it could, but our intent here is to be able to have…. o bviously, if c ampbell r iver says, "We've reached the threshold," we say yes, because we already have a proto- col in place with them on what that threshold is, and we trigger because they advise us that they want to trigger. [1500] i think it would be disappointing if we ever had to use the reverse of what the member described, where we have to step in when we have a protocol in place, because obviously, that group would not then be neces- sarily doing the job that they committed to do on behalf of the citizens of that community. in my time as minister, i don't know of any time where that has happened, where a community group has failed

british c olumbia Debates2436 t uesday, n ovember 17, 2009 to trigger when things hit. if anything, they will actually…. if there are other circumstances, they will trigger early versus late, because they'll err on the side of caution. on the reverse side, i don't think we've had the prob- lem either. but in a community, for instance, where there is no group, then i guess it's 100 percent our call anyway at b.c. h ousing. So if it's a community that really needs to have something triggered and we trigger it, we're pay- ing. We pay all the bills when this happens.

We pay the rent, the shelter, the costs and all that. We would have to make the decision when the weather changed to not do it, because we don't have any com- munity group giving us input either way. So i do think it's really just a safeguard to make sure that the program and the plan work. it's what we have in place today as to how we manage the system today, that we do have that ability, because it's necessary to have that rigour of disci- pline within a program like this. S. Simpson: i just want to bounce back a bit.

The min- ister, in answer to the previous question, had provided a little bit more information around numbers of com- mittees. i think he had said there are 32 communities that have committees in place today. i think that's what i heard the minister say. So how does that, in terms of the province…? Those 32 committees — are those mostly, could the minister tell us…? o bviously, you have committees in places like Van- couver that absorb a whole lot of the population — and in the l ower Mainland. h ow many of those committees are outside the l ower Mainland versus the ones that are in the l ower Mainland? Hon. R.

Coleman: l ots. What happens is if you have a major community like Vancouver, often that proto- col actually affects r ichmond and burnaby and what have you. but for instance, the interior in the o kanagan is pretty well covered. l ike i said, 82 percent of com- munities with 35,000 people or more in population are covered already today by committees. The island is cov- ered basically from Port h ardy to Victoria. The north is basically covered into, you know, the northwest; north- east would be Dawson creek and Fort St. John, which would be the two major communities up there.

That sort of thing. t errace is covered. Those types of things. There's actually a pretty good number of groups that are. a t the same time, because we have…. For instance, the north is probably not as good an example, but cer - tainly if we triggered in k elowna, we would know that we would be triggering in Penticton, o liver, o soyoos and Vernon, because that whole valley is pretty much the same for weather. e ven o liver. o soyoos may not have a committee in place. We'd know that they would be able to be triggered if we thought it was necessary for shelter in those communities if we had an identified need.

So that's basically how it works.

Section 2 approved. on

section 3. S. Simpson: l et me just ask for clarification from the minister here. is the intention of

section 3 to deal with those communities that don't have committees, or are there other circumstances under which the minister sees

section 3 being triggered other than what might be in communities that have no committee? Hon. R. Coleman: i think the member probably cap- tured it pretty well in his question. basically, the provision allows for the law to be applied equally across the prov- ince by allowing the minister to issue an alert in areas that do not have a plan. it also allows the minister to issue an alert in areas that have a plan in two circumstances. [1505] The two circumstances where he would, basically, would be where the weather conditions are not described in a plan.

That allows us to say: "We can go outside the agreement with you." That would be a situation where the plan maybe doesn't have the factors of high wind or a particular weather event that's going to have a severe effect on a community. basically, that really goes into areas like severe flood issues. Flood issues aren't necessarily covered, but in some rural areas of b.c., in conjunction sometimes with emergency preparedness, we need to move very quickly on some shelter space for people.

So that allows us to bring in an overlapping plan and coordinate with that. a lso, the reason for the provision…. a s the member says, if the community representative does not declare an alert despite extreme weather conditions, we need the ability to do it so that we can make sure that measurement is there. but it is basically this provision, as the member described at the beginning of his question, for us to be able to put the plans in place in communities that don't have a plan. For instance, if Williams l ake had a plan, but Quesnel didn't.

Quesnel and Williams l ake and 100 Mile are all sort of in the same weather pattern. it would allow us to do Quesnel and 100 Mile in that area based on the conditions of Williams l ake. So we would probably use what has triggered the plan in one community and say: "o kay, what else in the geographical area needs to be ap- plied immediately?" We would do that. S. Simpson: The minister talked about the sort of weather or things that might be unique.

So does the minister see this section, then…? o ther than in those communities that clearly don't have a committee, that can't provide advice or don't have a community repre- sentative because they don't have an infrastructure to do that, so the minister or the minister's staff are play- ing that role….

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, n ovember 17, 2009 2437 in addition to that, just so i'm clear on the minister's answer, that might also include other kinds of weather conditions other than what we might kind of reasonably expect from this, which would be a question largely of cold and things that come with cold weather — snow and that. There would be other kinds of weather condi- tions? Does that also get captured by this in what might be extreme or different kinds of unique weather? is that what the minister is thinking? Hon. R. Coleman: n o, we're not contemplating a whole bunch of other stuff.

We're basically contemplat- ing being able to react during severe cold weather with other weather conditions affecting it so that we would be able to put the plans in place in communities that didn't have plans or to make sure the plans were in place. i guess there could be mitigating circumstances sometimes with regards to these. i don't have all of those answers today — what mitigating circumstances may have a group say to us: "in actual fact, even though it's not zero degrees tonight, we've got other mitigat- ing things like wind and a very, very heavy rainfall and some other issues happening in our community, so that we would like to activate earlier." This gives us the lati- tude to be able to do that.

Section 3 approved. on

section 4. S. Simpson: u nder "Delegation by minister," it talks about, in subsection (1), the minister being able to dele- gate to an aDM or to the ceo of b.c. h ousing. in subsection (2) it talks about delegating authorities under subsection (1) in writing and "…may include any limits or conditions the minister considers advisable." c ould the minister give us some idea about what kinds of limits and conditions might be considered ad- visable there? Hon. R. Coleman: Y eah, i can. basically, we talked about this earlier. i mean, we have to have somebody we can designate who is the minister's representative.

That's why this reg identifies…. That's why earlier i said it's the ministry or b.c. h ousing because i knew this reg was in here, to be able to have it either-or. basically, the limits and conditions are that they would have to follow the protocols that are in place with re- gards to regulation as to what an extreme weather event is. if they wanted to go outside what was in regulation, they would have to talk to the minister. [1510] S.

Simpson: i mean, there's always some catch-all, i guess, for the minister to kind of be able to go out and make determinations outside, and the regulations might explain that to us later when they are prepared and released. is the expectation in terms of the limits or con- ditions…? it's not so much that you might remove some authority from your designate as much as limiting their ability to go past or use greater discretion. is that what the minister is saying? Hon. R.

Coleman: n o, it's more a matter of clarity and, basically, transparency on the direction that's given to the person that's making these decisions. it also al- lows the practical operations of the law by allowing individuals other than the minister or deputy minister to issue and cancel alerts. i mean, you have to have the transparency of here's the regulation, here are the parameters, and this is the dir - ection from you. Y ou now have the authority to do this, and the transparency is that you have to follow through with that.

That's basically saying why this designation is here, and that's why it also says that the minister "may include any limits or conditions the minister considers advisable" because that is making sure whatever the reg says and whatever the policy is, that that is the policy and reg that's being delivered.

Section 4 approved. on

section 5. S. Simpson:

Section 5(1) says: "if an extreme weather alert has been issued under

section 2 or 3 and is in effect, a police officer may assess whether a person is a person at risk." What kinds of assessments will the police officer use to determine if somebody is a person at risk? Hon. R. Coleman: Section (2) basically outlines that assessment. if the alert has been in place, the first sec- tion says that if there's an alert in place, the police officer may assess whether a person is at risk. That gives them the authority to do the assessment. in the assessment piece, which is the second section, it identifies that the person is in the geographical area covered by the alert.

The person is 19 years of age or over, and in the opinion of the officer, the person is suffering physical harm or at risk of physical harm due to extreme weather conditions. Then, also, obviously it says that other conditions must be considered and that the risk assessment may be prescribed by regulation. We have some work on the regulations with our service providers to do, but this basically gives us the parameters to build that reg so that we can actually have it clear for the law enforcement community to understand it. S. Simpson: The key to these, of course….

The geo- graphical area is pretty much an easy one to determine. Whether somebody is 19 or not is a judgment call, but in most cases it will probably be pretty evident.

british c olumbia Debates2438 t uesday, n ovember 17, 2009 but 5(2)(c), "the person, in the opinion of the po- lice officer, is suffering physical harm or is at risk of suffering physical harm because of the extreme weather conditions." is the minister planning to…?

What's the re- sponsibility on the police to make that determination? is there a liability at hand here for police who make that determination and decide, let's say, for example, that somebody seems to be doing okay, but it turns out they're not doing okay, and we suffer another tragic situ- ation? is there a liability on the police officer who has made that assessment if the assessment goes badly? [1515] Hon. R. Coleman: a s the member notes, this is en- abling legislation, so the police officer has the latitude to make a decision. The legislation can be used or not.

Police officers already have a duty of care, and this legis- lation, in our opinion and everything we've got, does not extinguish or add to the duty of care that already exists for police officers. it's just a tool for them — to have one more tool they can use to make a decision with regards to the assessment of an individual. S. Simpson: We'll assume that in this instance the po- lice are doing this, and if they choose to do this, they will use their best opinion.

They will do that. i guess the question i have is: if a police officer enacts this part of the legislation, makes a judgment call, decides that somebody, in fact, isn't at risk for any number of good reasons, maybe, and in fact it turns out that that was an error, is there a liability for the police officer there under this legislation, or is there a liability under other legisla- tion for the police officer? Hon. R. Coleman: n o, because the duty of care is the duty of care. it's there.

Police officers have to make these assessments all the time. it's one of the biggest challenges of being a police officer, which i think people forget. They look and see somebody that does enforcements or investigations but don't realize that they're actually an individual who is asked by the public in many cases to go out on our streets and make a snap decision on maybe 15 or 20 or 30 seconds' information in situations that are highly dangerous to them and other people. They're also asked to go out and be the front-line social worker and the front-line caregiver in many com- munities.

They actually develop skills to assess people. They're also fallible, and so they may not get it right every time. but the fact of the matter is that they asked for some tools. This is an additional tool, but the duty of care is there either way when they come across some- body that's in distress or could be in distress. Their job is to try and deal with the situation as best as they can and do the assessment as best as they can. if they make an assessment that they don't think some- body is at risk with regards to this particular piece of legislation, they would make it either way.

They would make that assessment based on their experience and their abilities. i know, having done the job, that it's a tough one. i know that making the assessments is tough, and i have a lot of faith in these folks to try and make those to the best of their ability. This is just a tool to allow them to do one more thing out there, because they're asked to make the assessments on, basically,

section 28 of the Mental h ealth a ct. They're asked to make assessments with regards to people's drug addictions or their alcohol addictions, their mental ill- ness, their health issues all the time. This doesn't have them do any of that. it just basically in extreme weather conditions says: "in addition to what you see, because of the weather, is this person's life at risk, and do you feel that they need to come inside?

Then you should talk to them about it and try and get them — and you have the authority to take them — to a shelter." o ur assessment, as we went through those questions with regards to preparation of the legislation, is that it did not change what the member described. S. Simpson: c ould the minister tell us why the deci- sion was made to have this be police…? l et me just back up one sec. The minister has said in comments previously that nobody is being forced to do anything here, that the po- lice will come and make an assessment of the individual.

They may determine that they are at risk, and then they can use reasonable force — and we'll talk later about reasonable force — and take that individual to a shelter.

Whether the person chooses to stay or leave the shelter is at their own discretion — as to whether they choose to stay at the shelter — though i don't actually see this in the bill, and we'll talk about that. [1520] if that's the case, if you're not compelling people to stay at a shelter, could the minister tell us why this is exclusively police officers, and why there was not the engagement of community outreach workers, the people like on the committee, the organizations that do that work? it might be more appropriate in larger jurisdictions. but those people who do that work every day as out- reach workers — why aren't they playing a role under this legislation, and why is it the police?

Maybe the min- ister could explain why it's the police. Hon. R. Coleman: e verybody plays a role in this. There could be an outreach worker who says, "i have a person under the Granville Street bridge that i'm afraid will freeze to death tonight," and so calls the po- lice. They've got the vehicles. They've got the training. They've got the ability to do this. it is a law…. We've discussed this at length. The people that are out there on the streets doing the other work are partners with the police in all of this, and they would just contact the lo-

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, n ovember 17, 2009 2439 cal police officer to say: "i think i've got a situation here." Police officers come and assess it. They talk to them. They talk to the individual, and they make the assessment. We've chosen, whether the member…. We could dis- cuss this all afternoon, but that's the decision we made as to who would have the authority, because that is the body that has authority for, basically, other forms of incarceration or arrest or compelling people to go to things and who are also trained to handle situations if they become difficult.

So they are the folks that we feel should be the front line. in talking to a number of chiefs, they felt the same way. They felt that an untrained person that didn't have the vehicle or that didn't have the ability to understand and to protect themselves in a different way with regards to someone who may have other issues would not be good for public safety. They felt that if there was going to be a power given, it could be to the police officer. So the police officer's opinion comes into it because they're the front-line worker that is dealing with this, and they also have the training. S.

Simpson: We know that there are community workers out there who deal with people who are home- less and with people who have other challenges around mental health and addictions and that every day. They're pretty skilled, generally, at dealing with those folks and pretty skilled at being able to assess them. The police, as the minister will know, are not social workers. That's not their job. They are law enforcement officers, and their job is to enforce the law and protect people's public safety and security.

That's what they do best. i know that there is some concern on the part of some police about whether this is adding a role that may or may not make sense for them. but i'm sure they will do the job if it's the job that they're given. in the assessment that's being done…. This assess- ment may be an assessment around health. it may be an assessment in a number of areas. i know that in the case of mental health, it is not uncommon for the police, if they have a concern about mental health, to bring mental health workers in to make that assessment.

Sometimes the police aren't prepared to do it themselves, unless of course there's an overt risk of some harm being done to somebody else or somebody doing harm to themselves, and then they intervene. but in other instances, they're inclined often to bring mental health support or out- reach workers to play here. i guess the question i have is…. What we see under

section 5, "a ssessment if person is person at risk," is that nowhere in here does it talk about any of those people who bring skill sets that the police, quite frankly, don't have — and it's not their job to necessarily have. n owhere in there does it require them to play a role in making that assessment for somebody, particularly somebody who's resistant to proceed to a shelter. if the police come upon somebody and say, "We have a shelter that we're prepared to take you to," and they say, "h ey, that's great. l et's go," that's one thing. if they come upon somebody who says, "i'm not interested" for any number of reasons and is resistant….

We'll probably talk about this later. it's in the assessment that they'll make this determination. Somebody who is resistant to pro- ceed and go to the shelter, do the police…? [1525] The question is: why aren't they bringing, or why aren't the police obliged to bring, any of those other resources to the table in that assessment to determine whether, in fact, they should be proceeding to use that reasonable force that's talked about later on in the bill? Hon. R. Coleman: They do that already. i mean, they have relationships with outreach workers. They have re- lations with other health providers.

This provision, for the member's information, is very similar to the pro- vision that already exists for law enforcement in the Mental h ealth a ct. it's not like somebody has developed a new provision. The police today don't actually do their…. if there is a mental health issue, they take the person to a hospital, to medical practitioners, under

section 28. in the case of someone like the situation we had in Vancouver last year, that wouldn't have qualified under

section 28, and there was no authority to take them anywhere. a ll this is, is a tool to say, "l et's give somebody the au- thority to take them, when they might be at risk of dying, to at least a shelter to make a decision whether they will come in from the cold during extreme weather condi- tions" — a very finite period of time with regards to that. i know the member made the comment that they're not social workers. but i can tell you, if you ask people in the 23 Sro s that we have in the Downtown e astside, where each one is like a beat for the police officer and every one of our clients, they are more than just a police officer. [c. t revena in the chair.] but because of that relationship on the social side as well as the enforcement side, crime comes down, there are better results with regards to the people that may end up towards criminality, and the understanding of their issues is much stronger.

Without that integration relationship in law enforcement with regards to those people at risk…. Y ou fail the system if you think it's just going to be somebody in a uniform doing the route of certain things, because that's not the job that they deal with every day. S. Simpson: Police, i guess, are like everybody else. Some of them are better at certain aspects of their job than they are at other aspects, the same as everybody else.

british c olumbia Debates2440 t uesday, n ovember 17, 2009 i've certainly talked to people on the street and people who work closely with those folks who are on the street. They tell me that some police officers function in the way that the minister has suggested, and they build collab- orative relationships with homeless people, with people who are in distress. They build those relationships and have some confidence of those people. o ther police of- ficers, not so much.

We know as well that in the instance of folks who are resistant — for reasons that may be sound or not, but people who are resistant — and concerned about inter - action with the police, particularly if they think they're going to be taken away somewhere by this, there can be conflict there. That may be conflict that isn't necessar - ily going to occur with somebody who isn't in uniform.

Maybe sometimes it's the relationship of the uniform that does it and may have absolutely nothing to do with the individual officer, their personality and their ability to engage. a gain, i guess the question i have here is on the narrowness of this assessment process, to narrow it down to putting that obligation on the police officers to make that assessment, particularly in the instance of somebody who is resistant. c learly, again, for somebody who they assess is at risk, they say: "h ey, do you know that we've got a shelter you can go to?" The person says: "Great, take me." i'm ap- preciative of that. o bviously, it's a non-issue, and they're happy to get a ride. in the case of somebody who is not so inclined, or somebody who is concerned about their goods, and their goods may or may not…. i know that hasn't been sorted out entirely — at least, it's not in the bill — about their goods and whether they go with them or other concerns they have about going with the police in a voluntary way.

They have other challenges. [1530] The question, again, i have is: is there any tool here, or what tools are available to the police, to be able to have that broader assessment done before they get to using the reasonable force that we'll talk about in a minute? Hon. R. Coleman: So it's two o'clock in the mor - ning. it's 10 below zero. Somebody's going to freeze to death, and the member would like us to phone the mental health worker and this person and that person to come down to do an assessment as to whether some- body should be told that they have to go to a shelter or at least to the door of a shelter.

That's probably a philo- sophical debate that we could do all afternoon. i'm fine with that. i'll deal with the questions as they come at the end of each one of those debates. The fact of the matter is that you cannot…. The com- ments the member made about some good police officers, some bad police officers. Y ou could say the same thing about great nurses and not so great nurses, or doctors or mental health workers or whatever the case. everybody brings a level of expertise to the job they do.

Some are bet- ter at it than others. but the one thing i know we can't do is legislate perfect behaviour in this world, because if we'd learned that, we would have do

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H1117pm-04
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H1117pm 04
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	da8a8d2c7ebad4252229d00f91607d2c0d1974bb

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