Province of Alberta The 27th Legislature Fourth Session Alberta Hansard Wednesday, March 2, 2011 Issue 6 The Honourable Kenneth R. Kowalski, Speaker

Legislative Assembly of Alberta The 27th Legislature Fourth Session Kowalski, Hon. Ken, Barrhead-Morinville-Westlock, Speaker Cao, Wayne C.N., Calgary-Fort, Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees Mitzel, Len, Cypress-Medicine Hat, Deputy Chair of Committees Ady, Hon. Cindy, Calgary-Shaw (PC) Allred, Ken, St. Albert (PC) Amery, Moe, Calgary-East (PC) Anderson, Rob, Airdrie-Chestermere (WA), WA Opposition House Leader Benito, Carl, Edmonton-Mill Woods (PC) Berger, Evan, Livingstone-Macleod (PC) Bhardwaj, Naresh, Edmonton-Ellerslie (PC) Bhullar, Manmeet Singh, Calgary-Montrose (PC) Blackett, Hon.

Lindsay, Calgary-North West (PC) Blakeman, Laurie, Edmonton-Centre (AL), Official Opposition House Leader Boutilier, Guy C., Fort McMurray-Wood Buffalo (WA) Brown, Dr. Neil, QC, Calgary-Nose Hill (PC) Calahasen, Pearl, Lesser Slave Lake (PC) Campbell, Robin, West Yellowhead (PC), Government Whip Chase, Harry B., Calgary-Varsity (AL), Official Opposition Whip Dallas, Cal, Red Deer-South (PC) Danyluk, Hon. Ray, Lac La Biche-St. Paul (PC) DeLong, Alana, Calgary-Bow (PC) Denis, Hon.

Jonathan, QC, Calgary-Egmont (PC), Deputy Government House Leader Doerksen, Arno, Strathmore-Brooks (PC), Deputy Government Whip Drysdale, Wayne, Grande Prairie-Wapiti (PC) Elniski, Doug, Edmonton-Calder (PC) Evans, Hon. Iris, Sherwood Park (PC) Fawcett, Kyle, Calgary-North Hill (PC) Forsyth, Heather, Calgary-Fish Creek (WA), WA Opposition Whip Fritz, Hon. Yvonne, Calgary-Cross (PC) Goudreau, Hon. Hector G., Dunvegan-Central Peace (PC) Griffiths, Doug, Battle River-Wainwright (PC) Groeneveld, George, Highwood (PC) Hancock, Hon. Dave, QC, Edmonton-Whitemud (PC), Government House Leader Hayden, Hon.

Jack, Drumheller-Stettler (PC) Hehr, Kent, Calgary-Buffalo (AL) Hinman, Paul, Calgary-Glenmore (WA), WA Opposition Deputy Leader Horne, Fred, Edmonton-Rutherford (PC) Horner, Doug, Spruce Grove-Sturgeon-St. Albert (PC) Jablonski, Hon. Mary Anne, Red Deer-North (PC) Jacobs, Broyce, Cardston-Taber-Warner (PC) Johnson, Jeff, Athabasca-Redwater (PC) Johnston, Art, Calgary-Hays (PC) Kang, Darshan S., Calgary-McCall (AL) Klimchuk, Hon. Heather, Edmonton-Glenora (PC) Knight, Hon. Mel, Grande Prairie-Smoky (PC) Leskiw, Genia, Bonnyville-Cold Lake (PC) Liepert, Hon.

Ron, Calgary-West (PC) Lindsay, Fred, Stony Plain (PC) Lukaszuk, Hon. Thomas A., Edmonton-Castle Downs (PC), Deputy Government House Leader Lund, Ty, Rocky Mountain House (PC) MacDonald, Hugh, Edmonton-Gold Bar (AL) Marz, Richard, Olds-Didsbury-Three Hills (PC) Mason, Brian, Edmonton-Highlands-Norwood (ND), Leader of the ND Opposition McFarland, Barry, Little Bow (PC) McQueen, Diana, Drayton Valley-Calmar (PC) Morton, F.L., Foothills-Rocky View (PC) Notley, Rachel, Edmonton-Strathcona (ND), ND Opposition House Leader Oberle, Hon. Frank, Peace River (PC) Olson, Hon.

Verlyn, QC, Wetaskiwin-Camrose (PC), Deputy Government House Leader Ouellette, Hon. Luke, Innisfail-Sylvan Lake (PC) Pastoor, Bridget Brennan, Lethbridge-East (AL), Official Opposition Deputy Whip, Official Opposition Deputy Leader Prins, Ray, Lacombe-Ponoka (PC) Quest, Dave, Strathcona (PC) Redford, Alison M., QC, Calgary-Elbow (PC) Renner, Hon. Rob, Medicine Hat (PC), Deputy Government House Leader Rodney, Dave, Calgary-Lougheed (PC) Rogers, George, Leduc-Beaumont-Devon (PC) Sandhu, Peter, Edmonton-Manning (PC) Sarich, Janice, Edmonton-Decore (PC) Sherman, Dr. Raj, Edmonton-Meadowlark (Ind) Snelgrove, Hon.

Lloyd, Vermilion-Lloydminster (PC) Stelmach, Hon. Ed, Fort Saskatchewan-Vegreville (PC), Premier Swann, Dr. David, Calgary-Mountain View (AL), Leader of the Official Opposition Taft, Dr. Kevin, Edmonton-Riverview (AL) Tarchuk, Janis, Banff-Cochrane (PC) Taylor, Dave, Calgary-Currie (AB) VanderBurg, George, Whitecourt-Ste. Anne (PC) Vandermeer, Tony, Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview (PC) Weadick, Hon. Greg, Lethbridge-West (PC) Webber, Hon. Len, Calgary-Foothills (PC) Woo-Paw, Teresa, Calgary-Mackay (PC) Xiao, David H., Edmonton-McClung (PC) Zwozdesky, Hon.

Gene, Edmonton-Mill Creek (PC), Deputy Government House Leader Officers and Officials of the Legislative Assembly Clerk W.J. David McNeil Law Clerk/Director of Interparliamentary Relations Robert H. Reynolds, QC Senior Parliamentary Counsel/ Director of House Services Shannon Dean Manager – House Proceedings Micheline S. Gravel Parliamentary Counsel Stephanie LeBlanc Committee Research Co-ordinator Philip Massolin Sergeant-at-Arms Brian G. Hodgson Assistant Sergeant-at-Arms Chris Caughell Assistant Sergeant-at-Arms Gordon H.

Munk Managing Editor of Alberta Hansard Liz Sim Party standings: Progressive Conservative: 67 Alberta Liberal: 8 Wildrose Alliance: 4 New Democrat: 2 Alberta: 1 Independent: 1

Executive Council Ed Stelmach Premier, President of Executive Council, Chair of Agenda and Priorities Committee, Vice-chair of Treasury Board, Liaison to the Canadian Armed Forces Lloyd Snelgrove President of the Treasury Board, Minister of Finance and Enterprise Dave Hancock Minister of Education, Political Minister for Edmonton Iris Evans Minister of International and Intergovernmental Relations Mel Knight Minister of Sustainable Resource Development Luke Ouellette Minister of Transportation Rob Renner Minister of Environment Verlyn Olson Minister of Justice and Attorney General Yvonne Fritz Minister of Children and Youth Services, Political Minister for Calgary Jack Hayden Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development, Political Minister for Rural Alberta Ray Danyluk Minister of Infrastructure Gene Zwozdesky Minister of Health and Wellness Ron Liepert Minister of Energy Mary Anne Jablonski Minister of Seniors and Community Supports Len Webber Minister of Aboriginal Relations Heather Klimchuk Minister of Service Alberta Lindsay Blackett Minister of Culture and Community Spirit Cindy Ady Minister of Tourism, Parks and Recreation Hector Goudreau Minister of Municipal Affairs Frank Oberle Solicitor General and Minister of Public Security Jonathan Denis Minister of Housing and Urban Affairs Thomas Lukaszuk Minister of Employment and Immigration Greg Weadick Minister of Advanced Education and Technology Parliamentary Assistants Evan Berger Sustainable Resource Development Manmeet Singh Bhullar Municipal Affairs Cal Dallas Finance and Enterprise Fred Horne Health and Wellness Broyce Jacobs Agriculture and Rural Development Jeff Johnson Treasury Board (Oil Sands Sustainable Development Secretariat) Diana McQueen Energy Janice Sarich Education Teresa Woo-Paw Employment and Immigration

STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Standing Committee on the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund Chair: Ms Tarchuk Deputy Chair: Mr. Elniski DeLong Forsyth Groeneveld Johnston MacDonald Quest Taft Standing Committee on Community Services Chair: Mr. Doerksen Deputy Chair: Mr. Hehr Allred Anderson Benito Bhullar Chase Johnston Notley Rodney Sarich Taylor Standing Committee on the Economy Chair: Mr. Bhardwaj Deputy Chair: Mr. Chase Amery Dallas Fawcett Hinman Johnson Lund Taft Tarchuk Taylor Woo-Paw Standing Committee on Health Chair: Mr.

McFarland Deputy Chair: Ms Pastoor Forsyth Griffiths Groeneveld Horne Lindsay Notley Quest Sherman Swann Vandermeer Standing Committee on Legislative Offices Chair: Mr. Mitzel Deputy Chair: Mr. Lund Bhullar Blakeman Campbell Hinman Lindsay MacDonald Marz Notley Quest Rogers Special Standing Committee on Members’ Services Chair: Mr. Kowalski Deputy Chair: Mr. Campbell Amery Anderson Bhullar Elniski Hehr Leskiw Mason Pastoor Rogers VanderBurg Standing Committee on Private Bills Chair: Dr.

Brown Deputy Chair: Ms Woo-Paw Allred Benito Boutilier Calahasen Dallas Doerksen Drysdale Hinman Horner Jacobs Kang Lindsay McQueen Morton Redford Sandhu Sarich Taft Xiao Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections, Standing Orders and Printing Chair: Mr. Prins Deputy Chair: Mr. Hancock Amery Berger Calahasen DeLong Doerksen Forsyth Groeneveld Hinman Jacobs Leskiw Lindsay McFarland Mitzel Notley Pastoor Quest Sherman Tarchuk Taylor Standing Committee on Public Accounts Chair: Mr. MacDonald Deputy Chair: Mr.

Rodney Allred Anderson Benito Calahasen Chase Dallas Elniski Fawcett Griffiths Groeneveld Kang Mason Sandhu Vandermeer Xiao Standing Committee on Public Safety and Services Chair: Mr. Drysdale Deputy Chair: Mr. Kang Boutilier Brown Calahasen Cao Forsyth Johnson MacDonald Rogers Sandhu Xiao Standing Committee on Resources and Environment Chair: Mr. Prins Deputy Chair: Ms Blakeman Anderson Berger Boutilier Hehr Jacobs Marz Mason McQueen Mitzel VanderBurg Select Special Ombudsman Search Committee Chair: Mr. Mitzel Deputy Chair: Mr. Lund Blakeman Hinman Lindsay Marz Notley Quest Rogers

March 2, 2011 Alberta Hansard 141 Legislative Assembly of Alberta Title: Wednesday, March 2, 2011 1:30 p.m. 1:30 p.m. Wednesday, March 2, 2011 [The Speaker in the chair] head: Prayers The Speaker: Good afternoon. Welcome. Let us pray. We confidently ask for strength and encouragement in our service to others. We ask for wisdom to guide us in making good laws and good decisions for the present and future of A l- berta. Amen. Please be seated. head: Introduction of Guests The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Transportation. Mr. Ouellette: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It g ives me great pleas- ure to stand and introduce to you and through you to all members of the Legislature today a school from my constituency. We have 26 grade 6 students from Spruce View school in Spruce View, Alberta. They’re accompanied by their teacher, Ms Teri Patterson, and parent helpers Mr. Kevin Newsham, Mrs. Cari Smith and Lincoln, and Mrs. Julie Roy. As I ’ve said in this House many times before, it’s great to have children here to watch the proceed- ings because, as you know, they will be our leaders of tomorrow. I’d like them to rise. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon.

Minister of Service Alberta. Mrs. Klimchuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It ’s a pleasure to rise today to introduce to you and through you to this Assembly a very enthusiastic cl ass from St. Vincent elementary school. The class made their way from my constituency of Edmonton-Glenora to take in a tour of the building and to witness the excitement of question period. I had a great picture with them. I would like to acknowledge the teachers, Mrs. Angela Whelan and Mrs. Kimber- ley Elvidge, and the parent helpers, Mrs. Christine Lucadello and Mrs. Kelly Mis.

I ’d like the class and the teachers and parent helpers to rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly today. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Whitecourt-Ste. Anne. Mr. VanderBurg: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On your behalf I ’d like to introduce to you and through you 17 grade 5/6 students from the Fort Assiniboine school. They are accompanied this a f- ternoon by their principal, Kerry McElroy, teacher Charlene Assenheimer, program assistant Fleur Whitley, parent helpers Kim Cross and Ellen Carlson.

They are seated in the members ’ gallery, sir, and I’d ask them to please rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Rural Deve l- opment. Mr. Hayden: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to introduce to you and through you to the members of the Assembly Erin Shaw from the Athabasca-Redwater constituency. Each year one outstanding 4-H member is chosen at the provincial 4-H selection program as the recipient of the 4 -H Premier’s award.

Recipients represent Alberta 4 -H and its members at various events regio n- ally and throughout the agricultural community throughout the year. The 4 -H club i s Alberta ’s oldest youth club and also A l- berta’s largest youth club, with over 400 clubs province -wide. Erin is in the House today as a recipient of the 2010 Alberta 4-H Premier’s award, and Erin is seated in the Speaker ’s gallery with her mother, Karen, and her sister Tegan. I would now ask them to rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of the Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Strathcona. Mr. Quest: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It ’s a pleasure to introduce to you and through you to all members of the Assembly two A l- bertans who are making a difference in the lives of those living with cancer, Dr. Brent Saik and his fiancée, Janelle Trenchuk. Last month the world’s longest hockey game took place at Saiker’s Acres, in my constituency, to raise money for the fight against cancer: 40 dedicated players, 241 straight hours, which became the world ’s longest hockey game. My wife and I stopped by a couple of times to cheer them on. I know the Premier and his wife also had a chance to stop by.

The Premier tells me he reco g- nized a familiar face on the memory wall dedicated to people who lost their battle with cancer, and it was a very moving experience. I think it’s safe to say that all members here today were moved by the dedication and commitment of everyone involved in the world’s longest hockey game. Through their efforts they’ve raised hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight the disease that’s touched the lives of many Albertans. They ’re outstanding Albertans. They’re seated in your gallery, Mr. Speaker , and I ’d like the members to join me in welcoming them to the Legislative Asse m- bly.

The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Seniors and Community Sup- ports. Mrs. Jablonski: Thank you. Mr. Speaker, today I have the priv i- lege to introduce to you and through you to all members of this Assembly the members of the provincial Persons with Develop- mental Disabilities Advisory Committee. We ’re all very fortunate to have PDD program stakeholders and senior PDD program and community board staff bring their extensive knowledge and exper- tise to the table to discuss issues that are very important to the PDD community. I would now ask that each member rise as they are introduced.

I am pleased to introduce Colin Atkinson, a family representative from Camrose; Keith Moore, a famil y represent a- tive from Grande Prairie; Donna Desjardins, a family representative from St. Paul; Dale Peterson, with Catholic Social Services in Edmonton; Joan Lee, with the Vecova centre for di s- ability research in Calgary; Krista Staples, with the Taber Special Needs Society; Ann Nicol, CEO of the Alberta Council of Disabil- ity Services; Bruce Uditski, CEO of the Alberta Association for Community Living.

My board CEOs are Dale Drummond, from the northeast r e- gion; Cheryl Bjorklund, from the northwest region; Hart Chapelle, from the Edmonton region; Wayne Morrow, central region; Alex Hillyard, Calgary region; and Leigh Bremner, south region. From my department Dave Arsenault, my assistant deputy minister, and Jim Menzies, director with the PDD program branch. Mr. Speaker, all these provincial advisory council members are truly dedicated to the PDD community and are partners in our quest to help each person with developmental disabilities to live their best life.

Please join me in giving the traditional warm we l- come of the Assembly to our guests. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Fish Creek.

142 Alberta Hansard March 2, 2011 Mrs. Forsyth: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It ’s my pleasure to intro- duce to you and through you to all members of the Assembly two Wildrose candidates: Mr. Bob McInnis, who is the candidate for Calgary-Fort, and Mr. Bill Jarvis, who is the candidate for Calgary-South East. I am delighted to be able to join them at our leader’s dinner tonight, and I would ask them to rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Airdrie-Chestermere. Mr. Anderson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to intr o- duce to you and through you to all members of this Assembly Mr. James Lockhart. This is his first time in the Legislature, and I assure you that I have assured him of the good behaviour of the people of this House. James and his family live in the beautiful town of Chestermere. He is a very successful entrepreneur, a good friend, and a strong advocate for change in Albert a. I ’m glad to see him here, and I ’d ask him to rise and receive the warm wel- come of this Assembly. head: Members’ Statements The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-North Hill. Natural Gas Revenues Mr.

Fawcett: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With the tabling of the budget last week a stark reality hit us. Alberta is facing a signif i- cant reduction in resource revenues from natural gas. This is largely due to the emergence of shale gas development across North America. A result is that gas prices have been deflat ed, and demand for natural gas has been undermined.

This has put pre s- sure on Alberta revenue, which pegs natural gas royalties at around a billion dollars for the new budget year, quite a different picture from previous years, when natural gas royalties br ought anywhere from $4 billion to $5 billion into government coffers. This fiscal challenge facing our province mirrors that of indi- vidual Albertans – constituents, friends, and family alike – who have been hit hard personally either through loss of a job or de- creased business activity. Mr.

Speaker, I ’m glad that we recognized certain challenges to the natural gas industry in Alberta through the competitiveness review last year, making royalty adjustments that will allow A l- berta gas companies to remain competitive. Looking forward, we must turn our attention to strategic cha l- lenges and opportunities surrounding market access.

First, we must develop a strategy that will ensure continued access to eas t- ern markets as many in the industry are concerned over t he threat of losing market share to the Northeastern Marcellus shale gas play. 1:40 Secondly, we need to seriously determine the strategic needs, costs, and benefits of gaining greater access to Asian markets by exploring the development of liquefied natural gas terminals on the west coast and pipeline access to these ports. Bill 1, the Asia Advisory Council Act, is a good start on this. Finally, Mr.

Speaker, we must look strategically at our own backyard, at how we can utilize natural gas for applications b e- sides heating our homes and businesses. For example, it may be worth promoting natural gas as an alternative fuel source for vehi- cles. This would also help lower greenhouse gas emissions. Talking with many individuals involved in the industry, it’s clear that there are a number of strategic challenges and opport u- nities for natural gas in Alberta and western Canada that we must embrace.

Going forward, I hope that these become priorities for this government as well as the newly established New West P art- nership. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Airdrie-Chestermere. Whistleblower Protection Mr. Anderson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The health minister is demanding the good doctor from Edmonton-Meadowlark disclose the source of his recent allegations of impropriety by top-ranking government ministers and health officials.

Now, there is no doubt that such serious allegations require proof as undoubtedly, if true, such crimes and misdemeanours would almost certainly result in electoral annihilation for this government at the next election. I do not know whether these claims are in whole or in part accu- rate. I do not have any such evidence. However, this is what I do know and am sure of: I watched last fall as the reputation of the doctor from Edmonton-Meadowlark was smeared in public and in the media for questioning this government ’s abysmal record on health.

I listened to a recorded message on the doctor ’s cellphone stating that the parliamentary assistant for health had called the head of the AMA, who was trying to rally support for having the doctor’s mental state evaluated, which, of course, could result in him losing his licence to practise medicine. I’ve talked with professionals who have had their licences r e- viewed by their professional organizations after speaking out in opposition to this government.

I know of many who have been intimidated with the prospect of losing their job because of their involvement in volunteering or assisting the Wildrose Alliance. These things often go unsaid. But make no mistake. They go un- said not because they don’t happen but because of a culture of fear and intimidation that exists in every corner of this province as it involves this 40 -year-old government. Whether it be the loss of government contracts or munic ipal funding or professional l i- cences, the last year in opposition has opened my eyes to the sad reality that this province has become a company town.

To the minister of health and the Premier: I challenge you both. Grant signed immunity from prosecution or loss of position for any breach of confidentiality or otherwise for any person willing to step forward and substantiate these allegations. I assure you: your refusal to not do so will speak volumes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Athabasca-Redwater. North West Upgrading/CNRL BRIK Project Mr. Johnson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I ’m pleased to rise today and acknowledge a very exciting announcement that occurred two weeks ago.

That announcement was from North West Upgrading and Canadian Natural Resources, which led to an upgrader being built in Alberta ’s Industrial Heartland. This is not only an u p- grader and refinery but also a project that will see the development of the first major carbon capture and storage proje ct in the prov- ince. Enhance Energy will build the Alberta carbon trunk line to deliver carbon dioxide captured from the new upgrader, to be used for enhanced conventional oil recovery, all while producing some of the greenest diesel barrels on the planet, derived from Alberta’s oil sands.

These projects were called a major economic development tur n- ing point in the local media. This is a landmark announcement for the value-added sector in our province and for agriculture, that depends on a reliable supply of diesel at harvest time.

March 2, 2011 Alberta Hansard 143 Mr. Speaker, these two projects are part of our Premier ’s vision to advance Alberta’s capacity for refining bitumen, which will provide jobs for Albertans and maximize the value of our r e- sources for future generations. All of this couldn’t be done without the bitumen royalty in kind program. BRIK is an innovative way for our government to encourage growth of the value -added sector without a large direct investment or costly tax credits, that are becoming common in other jurisdictions. Mr.

Speaker, my constituents and I are thrilled to see this pr o- ject go ahead, and I want to thank the Premier, the Minister of Energy, and all of caucus for their hard work on this project. But a special thanks needs to go to the many Alber tans, including mem- bers of the Alberta Industrial Heartland Association, who have also put in years of hard work to see this $15 billion 8,000-job dream become a reality for Albertans and for Alberta companies. The Speaker: The next speaker on my list is the hon. Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark, whom I shall call forward. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Rutherford.

ACT High School CPR Program Mr. Horne: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. As hon. me m- bers may be aware, February was Heart Month across Canada. During that time information arrived at my constituency office highlighting a national organization working with great success to save the lives of Canadians who suffer a heart attack, thousands of Albertans among them. I am speaking of the ACT Foundation, founded in 1985 to promote citizen training and proficiency in cardiopulmonary resuscitation, or CPR. In recent years ACT has focused its efforts on training youth through its high school CPR program.

Working in partnership with the government of Alberta, A CT has established CPR trai n- ing programs in 315 high schools across the province. Each year, Mr. Speaker, over 45,000 youth are trained by classroom teachers trained themselves in CPR. As a result of this initiative alone over 255,000 Albertans stand ready and willing today to help save the lives of their fellow citizens. More importantly, these same young people take this life -saving knowledge and share it with their friends, their families, and their communities, inspiring many others to make the commitment to train in CPR techniques.

In addition to achieving competency in these life -saving skills, the program also educates students about how to prevent cardiac disease, in theory through understanding the causes and risk fa c- tors and in practice through th e adoption of healthy lifestyle habits. Mr. Speaker, the high school CPR program is an excellent ex- ample of what we can achieve when we commit ourselves as schools, families, and communities to a proactive plan to reduce the impact of cardiac and other ch ronic diseases.

It is an excellent example of what is possible through the meaningful engagement of Albertans in health and health care. I want to commend ACT, its partner organizations, and esp e- cially students and staff in our high schools for their comm itment and for their leadership. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Highwood. Canadian Wheat Board Mr. Groeneveld: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Do we Alberta grain farmers see the light at the end of the tunnel, or once again do we have a federal freight train speeding right at us?

I rise today to bring this Assembly ’s attention to Bill C -619, which has been introduced in Canada’s House of Commons. This bill amends the Canadian Wheat Board Act and gives western farmers the option to mark et their wheat and barley as they choose. Currently farmers in Alberta and other western prov- inces are obligated to sell their product to the Canadian Wheat Board only. The passage of this legislation would bring a major benefit to all Alberta and western grain farmers since the current system allows farmers in eastern Canada to market their grain as they choose.

When the amendment is passed, western producers will be given the choice to opt out of participating in the Canadian Wheat Board for a minimum of two years. These same producers retain the right to return to the Canadian Wheat Board with notice if they so desire. Mr. Speaker, this bill strikes a balance and offers alternative marketing outside of the Canadian Wheat Board. Alberta farmers work hard to grow their various products, and they should be able to sell their products to the purchaser of their choice, as should happen in any truly free-market system. Mr.

Speaker, I encourage all members of this House to work with and encourage their counterparts in the federal government to support this bill to ensure equity for all Canadian farmers. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark. Innovation and Change in Government Dr. Sherman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Failure can be divided into those who thought and never did and those who did and never thought. For too long we’ve heard the argument: do not limit gov- ernment, and it will take care of you; keep quiet, and you will be rewarded; disobey, and you will be punished.

I am sad to say that Alberta has become a company town, where good public policy loses out to poor decisions made in secret. However, something is happening all across Alberta. Change is in the air. Albertans expect their government to be honest, to care for the most vulnerable, and to serve the public interest while at the same time protecting their individual rights and freedoms. Albertans refuse to accept the way that things have been done and that this is the only way t hey can be done. The people of this province want progress, they want to be happy, and they need their lives to get better. But change, Mr.

Speaker, does not always have to be incr e- mental. Sometimes drastic examples are required to shake people out of their complacency. With so much at stake at this present time Albertans need to be reminded of the greatness that they are truly capable of achieving and that they are entitled to receive.

The future of Alberta is a place where we innovate and educate our children with excellence; a society built on honouring and supporting our elders; government that is more accountable to the people, from whom it derives its power, and that is fiscally r e- sponsible enough to get the best deal for the taxpayer; a land where indigenous Albertans recover their dignity, shake off the shackles of poverty, and take their place amongst our best and brightest. Alberta is the best place in the world to live . . . [Dr.

Sherman’s speaking time expired] 1:50 head: Oral Question Period The Speaker: First Official Opposition main question. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Health Care System Governance Dr. Swann: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In 2008 the government

144 Alberta Hansard March 2, 2011 fired Alberta ’s local health regions and replaced them with the health superboard. In doing so, they failed to establish appropriate accounting controls, the most basic bookkeeping necessary to keep track of the billions spent on health care. Alberta ’s Auditor General has condemned the government for this failure, and only recently has the government agreed to follow the Auditor Ge n- eral’s advice. But the work won’t be done until 2013, another two years away and nearly another $20 billion in inadequately r e- corded spending.

This government continues to mismanage the public purse. To the Premier: how can you say that there is not a crisis . . . The Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, because there is . . . [interjection] Speaker’s Ruling Timing in Question Period The Speaker: Yesterday afternoon I said t hat this House was developing bad habits. I talked about the Oral Question Period. We know what the phrase was. That was 45 seconds, 10 seconds beyond what we had, and we ’re going to keep going because I ’m going to bring in as many members into question pe riod as I po s- sibly can.

Premier, you have 35 seconds. Health Care System Governance (continued) Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, very simply, yesterday the minister of finance told this House that according to many accountants, various professional organizations across Canada – he said to this House and to Albertans – we have the best books in the country of Canada. Dr. Swann: I guess the Premier disagrees with the Auditor Gen- eral, then. Is that what he’s saying? How can the Premier assure Albertans that billions of dollars in vital health care funding has not been wasted as the financial controls are missing in action? Mr. Stelmach: Mr.

Speaker, because we have the good work of the Auditor General, that reviews the books not only of the A l- berta government but also of the regional health authorities. If there are any areas that we can improve, I know that the minister has read the report very carefully and will undertake to make those improvements. Dr. Swann: Well, in fact, they ’ve agreed to but not until 2 013. That’s a problem, Mr. Speaker. Are mismanagement, lack of financial control, and increased ER wait times what your government had in mind when you di s- missed health regions and promised Albertans better health care? Mr.

Zwozdesky: Not at all, Mr. Spea ker. What we had in mind was to streamline the services, to reduce the costs by $500 million or $600 million annually, and to pump all of that straight back into health care so that we could meet some very important targets such as reducing wait times for hip surgery by 60 per cent, such as making more continuing care options available to seniors with a 68 per cent increase in the number of people moved out into a p- propriate settings, and by ensuring that 90 per cent of patients have access to important medi cal services in the cancer area.

That’s what we had in mind with the Canadian . . . The Speaker: Second Official Opposition main question. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Health Care Services Dr. Swann: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Although this government continues to ignore the facts, Alberta Liberals know very well that quality health care remains the most important issue in the minds of Albertans, yet two-thirds of Albertans believe that the health care system is in a state of crisis.

To the Premier: when you continually claim that health care is not in crisis, are you sa y- ing that the experiences of two-thirds of Albertans are wrong? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, the question is the same one that was asked last week by the hon. member. Ver y clearly, 62 per cent of Albertans said that they get the health services when they need them, and they ’re very satisfied with the health services. That came in two different polls that were done in the province of A l- berta, and I happen to believe what Albertans are telling us. Dr.

Swann: While conveniently ignoring the two -thirds that said that it’s in crisis and that 6 out of 10 have correctly identified that bad management is the main issue impacting health care today. Why won’t the Premier start listening to Albertans by giving them the health system they deserve? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, in fact, that Environics poll that he’s talking about, the headline on it, which I ’ll table if I can find it here quickly, said that 60 per cent or more of Albertan s were satisfied, very satisfied, or somewhat satisfied with health se r- vices.

It also said that there were some improvements that needed to be made. Of course there are. Every health system in the world can benefit from improvements. But it also indicated that there was a drop of 20 per cent in terms of the number of people sur- veyed who said that health care is not that seriously in jeopardy at the moment. So take a look at the whole poll if you would, please. Dr. Swann: Well, Mr. Speaker, when Alberta’s new hospitals and clinics do open up, will there be health professionals to staff them, or will they sit empty for months, as the Mazankowski did? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr.

Speaker, as facilities open in this province, be they health facilities or others, they are fully staffed in the year that they ’re operating or expected to be operating, and they are funded accordingly. That’s what we have built into our plan, and I would encourage the hon. member to please take a look at more evidence of that in the five-year health action plan, where it’s very clearly spelled out. Even the opposition can follow it, I’m sure. The Speaker: Third Official Opposition main question. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Provincial Borrowing Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The finance minister was confused yesterday. It clearly reads in the fiscal plan on page 80 that over the next three years this government plans to borrow over $3 billion on behalf of the Alberta Treasury Branches. It ’s not a laughing matter with your performance, sir. Now, to the minister of finance. I ask again: why is this government borrowing this money now? I thought you were out of the business of being in business. Mr. Snelgrove: Mr. Speaker, I even went out with the hon. me m- ber and showed him in the financial statement where he ’s misreading.

We are borrowing money on behalf of Alberta Trea s- ury Branches. It ’s a bank that ’s completely owned by the government of Alberta, and they in turn loan that money out to their clients.

March 2, 2011 Alberta Hansard 145 Mr. MacDonald: Isn’t this a bit unfair? How can an organization or an enterprise like the Canadian Western Bank, which is located here in Alberta, compete whenever you ’re giving your Crown - owned corporation this kind of a sweet deal? Mr. Snelgrove: Mr. Speaker, there are di fferent philosophical choices we can make. If the opposition believes that the Alberta Treasury Branches should be sold or shut down, then they need to say that, to ask Albertans if, in fact, they have no interest in the bank that ’s provided services all o ver Alberta for decades.

We believe it is a solid resource for the people of Alberta, and we ’ll continue to support it. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you. Again to the minister of finance, and this is quite interesting: where on the go vernment of Alberta’s books will this $3 billion liability over three years be recorded? Or is it on someone else ’s books and you’re hiding it because you’re embarrassed? Mr. Snelgrove: It will show as an asset of the Alberta Treasury Branches, which are i ncluded in our consolidated financial stat e- ments. Federal Public Building Renovations Mr. Anderson: Mr.

Speaker, part of being a fiscally responsible government is to maintain a balanced budget by ensuring that core programs and critical infrastructure receive needed funding while less important initiatives are shelved until they become necessary and affordable. An example of where this government has failed in this regard is the building of new MLA offices at a cost of $275 million, including $115 million in this year ’s budget. To the f i- nance minister: how does he justify spending $115 million on new MLA offices during a budget crisis, an ER crisis, and a school shortage crisis? Mr. Snelgrove: Mr.

Speaker, the total cost of the federal building, which will house some MLA offices but also the departments of finance and others when it ’s done, is $115 milli on. For the hon. member to suggest that we’re spending $115 million on MLA offices is simply absurd. Mr. Anderson: It’s on your own website. Look it up if that ’s possible for you. So new MLA offices are more important to this minister than new doctors, new schools, or balanced books. That’s very interesting. My next question.

Given that we have a $6.1 billion cash shor t- fall this year and given that our provincial savings are being drained at an alarming rate, will this finance minister mothball these new MLA offices and instead focus on cutting the deficit or, if that’s not important to him, spend it on new schools or nurses or something that benefits Albertans; you know, the people who pay the bills? Mr. Snelgrove: Mr. Speaker, the share of the budget for the fe d- eral building is less than 5 per cent. So we could stop that. It would cost much more to restart the program down the road.

But what they need to tell us is: what hospitals in what communities, what schools in what communities, which highways in whi ch part of Alberta are they going to quit working on now? It ’s just that simple. What projects are you going to stop doing? Just tell us. Mr. Anderson: Start with the $115 million. It would appear this government’s focus is on upgrading opposition offices prior to the next election. Go figure. Final question.

Given that this project clearly should not have been undertaken during this period of skyrocketing deficits, will he disclose to this House a list of all planned infrastructure pr o- jects for the next t hree years so that we can do exactly what he’s saying, so that we can go through line by line and look at the pr i- orities and look at where we can cut? Show us the list. Come on. We’ll show you where to prioritize. 2:00 Mr. Snelgrove: It’s generally accepted that for every billion do l- lars of infrastructure spending, we employ 10,000 Albertans.

If the opposition thinks that that is just insignificant, they need to talk to the people on the construction jobs. They’re at 5 per cent that they said they co uld stop. Five per cent. They ’ve got to find another two and a half billion to match their ‘ fudget’. Are they going to tell 25,000 Albertans that they ’re going to put them out of work? Is that what they’re trying to do? The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edm onton-Highlands- Norwood. [interjections] The hon. Member for Edmonton- Highlands-Norwood has the floor. I want all members to know that the television cameras go to him.

Nobody else can see you, hear you, or anything else. Cancer Treatment Wait Times Mr. Mason: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Dr. John Cowell, the head of the Health Quality Council of Alberta, says he ’s willing to in- dependently investigate accusations that long wait times for cancer surgery resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Albertans, but the h ealth minister has refused to let the Health Quality Council get to the bottom of these serious accusations. My question is to the minister.

Why is the minister refusing to allow the Health Quality Council to investigate serious allegations of cancer p a- tients dying while waiting for surgery in Alberta for the past decade? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, I ’m not denying anyone anything of the sort. What I am asking for is that the hon. member who brought forward these allegations stand in this Assembly and then stand out there, where it really counts, and live up to those alleg a- tions or withdraw them. Mr. Mason: Well, Mr. Speaker, the minister can hide behind the hon. Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark, but he is accountable to this House.

Given that this minister s aid yesterday that cancer surgery wait times improved dramatically since 2006, it’s clear that the mini s- ter knows the numbers from before 2006. Will the minister give us the numbers for wait times on cancer surgery from before 2006? Mr. Zwozdesky: I can certainly try and get that information. I don’t have it at my fingertips. What I ’d like this hon. member and other hon. members to know, and in particular the member who raised the allegations, is that Alberta Health Services, Mr. Speaker, does have a policy, and that policy has many parts to it that deal with this issue.

One of them is called a duty to disclose, and here is what it says. “Any member of AHS Personnel who has a reasonable basis to believe that Improper Activity has occurred or is occurring wi thin AHS is required to disclose the information on which the belief is based.”

146 Alberta Hansard March 2, 2011 The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Mason: Thanks very much, Mr. Speaker. I think I should get another question since he’s more interested in . . . The Speaker: Hon. member, you have 35 seconds with no pr e- amble, and you’re eating up your time. Mr. Mason: Yeah. Thanks. Given that the minister won’t allow an investigation, won ’t divulge facts at his disposal about wait times and cancer deaths, allegations of a cover -up seem valid. T o the minister: will he admit that there is indeed a cover -up and that he is orchestrating it as we speak? Mr.

Zwozdesky: You know, I always appreciate a little bit of humour when he ties in some of my professional musical bac k- ground. Thank you for that. Mr. Speaker, there is also a clause in here that talks about pr o- tection from retaliation. It reads: “AHS will not take or condone any adverse action . . . against any AHS Personnel or other ind i- vidual who . . . in good faith and without malice or desire for personal benefit, reports Improper Activity in accordance with this policy.” That’s pretty much verbatim from what’s in here.

With respect to the cancer issues and any wait times and so on that he has asked about, I will look into it. The Speaker: Thank you, hon. minister. And you will table the documents from whence you quoted, correct? Mr. Zwozdesky: Absolutely, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: Okay. The hon. Member for Calgary-Currie. Regional Planning Mr. Taylor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Good on the government for introducing Bill 10 yesterday, but this is kind of like the new royalty frameworks that they introduced after getting the original new royalty frameworks so wrong.

Wouldn’t it have been better to avoid all the anger, hostility, and confusion by ge tting it right the first time? And there was a template for this. Ontario ’s Places to Grow Act offered a sound basis for regional planning that kept landowner rights intact and did not give monolithic power to the Ontario cabinet. To the Premier: why did t his government so grossly overstep its boundaries in implementing legislation for regional planning when other effective examples existed within Canada? Mr. Stelmach: Actually, Mr.

Speaker, I’d argue with the member in terms of whether the land planning in Ontario that he talked about is a better policy. I vehemently disagree. Anyway, we heard from all industry and Albertans that we have to protect a very finite land base, protect our water, our air, and also, most importantly, the quality of our land. As a result, we consulted Albertans for a number of years. We put a bill together called Bill 36, and that bill was debated here in the House. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Taylor: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Why should Albertans, who certainly don’t seem to feel like they were co n- sulted or at least listened to, trust this government to restore landowner rights in Bill 10 since it was the same government that introduced bills 19, 36, and 50 in 2009 that infringe on landowner rights? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, Bill 19, Bill 36, and Bill 50 actually supported landowner rights. I don’t know where the hon. member is getting that. He should take the time and have a look at Bill 19. It actually protects landowners. For years this government steri l- ized land before they bought land for large transportation projects.

Now we have to buy that land or remove all restrictions within two years. That definitely enhances landowner policy. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Taylor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, sinc e the first r e- gional plan under Bill 36 will involve the lower Athabasca area, which contains a great deal of land that requires conservation, and given that the failed Alberta parks act last fall was pulled because it was more about commercial development in parks than protec t- ing them, what measures will this government take in this regional plan’s conservation efforts that will restore Albertans’ trust? Mr.

Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, that is the purpose of the land-use framework, to make sure that Albertans come together and decide what they want to see in their own community. I ’m not going to allow some of this opposition to allow these decisions to be made in court. If we don’t get together as Albertans and decide what we’re going to do with our communities – and I don’t want any doggone judge that ’s going to listen to evidence from outside the community or outside this country to implement policy for Albe r- tans. It’s not going to happen under my watch. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo. Capital Infrastructure Benefits Mr. Bhardwaj: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have tra v- elled all over Alberta and have seen some of the incredible work being done in our province regarding the investment in infrastruc- ture. We’re building world-class institutions, opening schools and hospitals all over the province, and providing jobs to thousands of Albertans. My questions are to the Premier. With a $6.6 billion commitment to capital projects in Budget 2011 what does this investment mean to Albertans and Alberta’s economy?

Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, not only does it mean a lot of jobs, but it also means that all of the infrastructure we ’re building is an economic enabler. It ’s going to help us move our goods and se r- vices competitively to market, it’s going to build the schools that are absolutely necessary, and it ’s also going to provide first -class health facilities across this province. It’s a good investment. The money is coming from the cash reserve in our sustainability fund. It’s being paid for, and it’s going to support the next generation of Albertans. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr.

Bhardwaj: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My next question to the Premier again: how many electricians, boilermak- ers, construction workers, and other Albertans would be out of work if the decision was made to defer the infrastructure inves t- ment as is being talked about in the House? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, the deficit is around $3.2 billion, and that’s all in infrastr ucture. The operational part of government is balanced, but it’s the money we’re spending on infrastructure. For every billion dollars involved in infrastructure, it’s about 10,000 jobs.

So if we were going to balance and erase the $3.2 billion

March 2, 2011 Alberta Hansard 147 deficit, it would be on the backs of about 30,000 Albertans who would not have a job today. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Bhardwaj: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My final question to the Premier again: what would it cost this government to wait another year to build these critical infrastructure projects? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, I can ’t give a definite answer in terms of what the inflation may be over the next couple of years, but I do know that we ’ve learned from the past.

While we were paying off the debt , which was a good idea, we were very def i- cient in infrastructure. As a result, at many times we were paying as high as 25 per cent inflation on the infrastructure to catch up, whether it was roads, schools, hospitals built in this province. By investing the money that we have in cash today and building the infrastructure, we’re going to save hundreds of millions of dollars, number one.

Number two, if we wait another couple of years, we’re going to run into the same 20 to 25 per cent inflation be- cause the economy is picking up and we ’re going to be competing with the private sector again. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo, followed by the hon. Member for Strathcona. 2:10 Electricity Generation Mr. Hehr: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With Alberta ’s electrical generating capacity already insufficient, two generators, Sundance 1 and 2, ceased operating. This is a time when we are already dependent on imported power.

To the Minister of Energy: does the minister agree that without these two generators it will further escalate electricity prices? Mr. Liepert: Well, Mr. Speaker, that ’s the same question that the member asked I think a week ago. I ’ll assure the member that the Alberta Electric System Operator is confident that as we move forward, we will be able to meet the needs of Albertans.

But I think it’s a good time, also, to ensure that members of the oppos i- tion, I assume, are now going to be much more supportive of our Bill 50, which is ensuring that we have the transmission that will transmit this electricity around the province. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Hehr: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Given that the Alberta Electric System Operator predicts potential energy shortfalls with- out these two generators, does the minister believe we have enough capacity to avoid the potential for blackouts? Mr. Liepert: Mr.

Speaker, I don ’t know where the member is getting his information from, but I talk to the Electric System Operator on a regular basis. The Electric System Operator is not predicting blackouts because of these two generators coming of f- line. In fact, the output from the two generators will be pretty much made up by the new Keephills plant that comes on in April. [interjections] The Speaker: Okay, boys. You know, you can hide, but you will be found. The hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo. Mr. Hehr: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I appreciate that the new Keephills plant is coming online, but it does not meet the gener a- tion capacity of old Sundance 1 and 2. Given that and that we need more capacity, are we looking at building more load capacity down around Calgary like many experts have suggested? Mr. Liepert: Well, Mr. Speaker, the member is indicating in his question that somehow it ’s government that builds generating capacity. It is not the government. We have a deregulated gener a- tion system in Alberta. If the private sector believes that the capacity is required, I’m sure it’ll be built. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Strathcona, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. Northeast Anthony Henday Ring Road Mr. Quest: Thank you, Mr Speaker. This morning the Premier announced that the province is moving forward with the final northeast leg of the Anthony Henday Drive. My constituents and many others are very pleased to see this project moving ahead. My questions today are for the Minister of Transportation. While completion of the ring road is critical for economic development for the entire capital region – I’m sure we all agree – my question is: why is this project being built as a P3? Mr. Ouellette: Mr.

Speaker, this final leg of Edmonton’s ring road will be Alberta’s single largest transportation or highway construc- tion project to date. This is a very complex project, and a P3 gets it done as one project, not a whole bunch of little ones. The benefits are cost savings for taxpayers, a guaranteed price, and a guaranteed delivery date about three years quicker than conventional delivery. The contractor takes on the risks of inflation, and we get a 30-year warranty on the work. And let’s not forget all the jobs. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Quest: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My first supplemental to the same minister: does the minister have any idea what the total pr o- ject cost is going to be? Mr. Ouellette: Mr. Speaker, starting today, we’re asking for qualified P3 groups to come forward, and then we will pick the top three out of all of those qualified groups. To ensure a fair, competitive bidding price, we will not release that cost until after we get – about a year from now we ’ll actually get the contract, and that’s when the total price will be made available to the pu b- lic. We know industry is anxiously awaiting this project because they know Alberta’s . . .

The Speaker: The hon. member. [interjection] Okay. But I reco g- nized the hon. Member for Strathcona. Mr. Quest: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My final question to the same minister. The minister has said that this is a very extensive project, and I understand it includes more than the last nine kil o- metres of the ring road. What do we need to do south to the Whitemud and on parts of the Yellowhead? Mr. Ouellette: Mr. Speaker, the

section of Anthony Henday Drive from highways 16 and 14 must be upgraded because of the increased traffic volumes there. We are putting extra overpasses or interchanges in the Sherwood Park area to handle all of that tra f- fic, and it makes perfect sense to include that work while we’re doing a P3 project. This government is building the right things at the right time to ensure that the province’s . . . The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre , followed by the hon. Member for Grande Prairie-Wapiti.

148 Alberta Hansard March 2, 2011 Caribou Conservation Ms Blakeman: Thanks very much, Mr. Speaker. The woodland caribou is categorized as threatened under the Wildlife Act, and the number one thre at to its survival is industrial development of its habitat. When a government-appointed scientific subcommittee recommends that woodland caribou be listed as endangered, the Endangered Species Conservation Committee insists on the lesser category. To the Minister of Sustainable Resource Development: what fact-based evidence does the deciding committee have which trumps the scientific subcommittee recommendation? Mr.

Knight: Well, Mr. Speaker, quite honestly, I don’t have any of the information that the mem ber opposite speaks about. What I can tell you about the caribou conservation measures in the pro v- ince of Alberta: we’re working closely with the federal government and with the committee that we put together in the province of Alberta. We realize this is an iconic species in the province of Alberta. When we move forward with regional pla n- ning such as the lower Athabasca, in those plans the member opposite will see some very positive work moving forward with respect to conservation of caribou.

The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Blakeman: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Back to the same minister. What other information, aside from science, does the minister consider in classifying endangered species? For ex- ample, with the grizzlies it was the input of hunters . So what is it that the minister considers for the woodland caribou? Mr. Knight: Well, Mr. Speaker, first of all, I don ’t set whether or not a species in the province of Alberta would be considered to be at risk, threatened, or endangered.

We rely on a co mmittee that does that kind of work, and they use the science -based work and data that they gather with respect to the issue. All I would do is agree or disagree at the end of the day with what may be presented to me. At this particular point in time I hav e not been presented with any information that would force me to make a decision. Ms Blakeman: They still report to you, Mr. Minister.

Again to the same minister: can the minister explain why dec i- sions which have a favourable outcome for the sectors of industrial and agricultural committee members like the Alberta Forest Products and CAPP and the Beef Producers seem to carry more weight in decisions made by the endangered species co m- mittee? In this case these members ’ activities are the number one cause of the shrinking caribou habitat. Mr. Knight: You know, Mr. Speaker, there are two things here. Now the member has moved away from the idea of the decrease in numbers.

The number one cause of decrease in numbers was originally the question that was asked. Now we ’ve got this about the decrease in the area. There’s no real decrease in area of critical habitat for caribou. We work in the areas where caribou are pr e- sent and prevalent, but there is plenty of critical habitat for caribou in the province of Alberta, and we will move forward to protect it. Air Quality Monitoring in the Three Creeks Area Mr. Drysdale: Mr.

Speaker, this morning residents of the Three Creeks area northeast of Peace River were again subjected to odours emanating from the significant ener gy industry activity in the area to the point where some of them evacuated their homes. This is clearly an alarming situation. My first question is to the Minister of Energy. Is he concerned about the level of industrial emissions in this northern airshed, and is he pursuing activities to address this? Mr. Liepert: Well, Mr.

Speaker, our department through the E n- ergy Resources Conservation Board and the Department of Environment has been working with the residents of Three Creeks for some time now monitoring emissions and odours. The actions to date include conducting extensive air monitoring and sampling and providing residents with canisters to capture their own sa m- ples. Throughout all these initiatives the parts per million are consistently within provinc ial limits. Monitoring of new concerns this morning showed zero parts per million of H 2S, and there were no evacuations other than those that were voluntary.

The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Drysdale: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My second question is to the Minister of Health and Wellness. Is he concerned about the allegation of health impacts to the residents of the area, and is he doing anything to address this situation? 2:20 Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, I’m always concerned when the issue of health in Alberta arises.

As a result of that we have health personnel under my umbrella who are working very closely with the ministry officials in Energy and in Agriculture and in Sustai n- able Resource Development to study the situation to come up with some suggested solutions, as the Minister of Energy just me n- tioned. We are always concerned with air quality and testing and surveying, and that ’s why we’re going out into the field to meet with those individuals as we speak. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Drysdale: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My third question is to the Minister of Energy.

Can he assure this House that his depar t- ment is working to resolve this issue with the same urgency that he would if it were occurring in a large urban environment? Mr. Liepert: Absolutely, Mr. Speaker. There is a protocol that is in place. It was developed jointly by the residents of the community along with the Department of Environment and the ERCB. It was followed this morning, and working with the Minister of Enviro n- ment we’ll continue to monitor and respond in a timely fashion. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Fish Creek. Confidentiality of Name Changes Mrs. Forsyth: Well, thank you, Mr.

Speaker. The government ’s first and most important duty is to protect our citizens. Jane and Janet Doe obtained unpublished, secure name changes five years ago, the first sign of life after living in fear for more than a de c- ade. Imagine their horror when they found out the Alberta Gazett e had published the name change and that a simple Google search would’ve found it. The minister has issued an apology, but it doesn’t go nearly far enough.

To the Minister of Service Alberta: why was no consideration given to settling this matter instead o f letting it drag out into a lawsuit when you have already admitted fault? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mrs. Klimchuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With respect to this situation, the moment that we were made aware of the situation,

March 2, 2011 Alberta Hansard 149 we immediately removed the name from electronic copies of the Gazette and took steps to ensure that it didn’t happen again in the future. We’ve also been informed that the individual has obtained legal representation, and we are waiting for a response from the lawyer on this matter. Mrs. Forsyth: Well, Mr. Speaker, again to the same minister: have the changes referred to in your apology letter of Ma rch 16, 2010, been implemented, and if so, can you provide the House with written proof of this compared to the original legislation? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mrs.

Klimchuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Indeed, with respect to the checks and balances we have put in place, those were put in place immediately. I ’m happy to provide that information to the member so that she can see what we’ve done. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mrs. Forsyth: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again to the same mini s- ter: Minister, can y ou assure this family that they will be fairly compensated immediately so that they can put this ugly ordeal behind them for good? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mrs. Klimchuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Of course, we take the privacy of Albertans ’ information very seriously – and I do as minister – and I would like to assure all members in this Chamber that we will continue to do that. As the matter is with the lawyers at this time, I will wait until we hear from the lawyers. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity. Logging in the Castle Special Management Area Mr. Chase: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In yesterday ’s prayer you painted a picture of the bounty of Alberta ’s natural and human resources, entreating us to rededicate ourselves as wise stewards, when you stated: “In our mind’s eye let us see the awesome gran- deur of the Rockies, the denseness of our forests.” Given SRD ’s proposed clear-cutting in the Castle -Crown, all Albertans will be left with is a mind’s eye memory. My questions are to the Minister of Sustainable Resource Development. How can you justify clear - cutting in the Castle? Mr. Knight: Mr.

Speaker, quite honestly, the area that we’re talk- ing about here is a C5 management area, and there have been industrial and commer cial operations, particularly from the point of view of timber harvesting, in that area for over 50 years. If you look at a proper forest management program going forward, I think that it’s very clear that the management plans that have been in place have protected the area very well. If you look at the type of forestry, the old-growth forest that ’s there, some management plan is required from the point of view of the infestation. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr.

Chase: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I ’m all in f avour of ma n- agement. It’s clear-cutting that I’m opposed to. Again to the Minister of Sustainable Resource Development: why are you using the pine beetle infestation as justification for the corporate mowing down of every piece of vegetation in what is a diversified forest? Mr. Knight: Well, Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that in the area two-thirds – two-thirds – of the area is off limits to logging. Two-thirds. Sixty-six per cent. I don’t know what kind of a mower this individual has. Two-thirds of the area is off limits.

Of the one- third that remains, less than 1 per cent per year is harvestable. Mr. Chase: One per cent per year after year after year after year of one-third has a damaging effect. Has work on the land- use framework been deliberat ely stalled so that every piece of Crown land in this province can be e x- ploited before regional plans are implemented and enforced? Mr. Knight: Mr. Speaker, year after year after year after year we continue to plant two trees for every one we cut down. The Speaker: Hon. Member for Calgary -Varsity, my prayers are prayers of hope. The hon. Member for Calgary-Mackay.

Alberta Innovation Voucher Program Ms Woo-Paw: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Nanotechnology has big potential for Alberta, and I ’m concerned th at we may not be fully capitalizing on these new ventures. At the recent nanotechnology conference participants told me that they were frustrated by the government’s hit-and-miss support for the indus- try. For example, they can get innovation vouchers, but they cannot find the market research expertise they need to use these vouchers. My questions are to the Minister of Advanced Educ a- tion and Technology.

What are you doing to ensure that the innovation voucher program is achieving its goals and helping nanotechnology companies access the market research they need? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Weadick: Well, thank you. I’d like to agree with the member that nanotechnology is indeed one of those bright spots in the future of Alberta. The innovation vouchers are an important part of connecting our entrepreneurs, our nanotechnology people with great ideas with the researchers that are doing the work. This pr o- gram is extremely important. We ’ve just finished the second round of vouchers.

We are now starting t o get feedback on the first round of vouchers so that we can continue to make the pr o- gram work better. I would like to assure the member that market research can be done using these vouchers. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Woo-Paw: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. My second question is for the same minister. Why doesn’t the government commission market research in nanotechnology that all businesses and other researchers can access? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Weadick: Thank you.

The National Institute for Nanotec h- nology does do some generalized market research, which is available to the public. However, specialty market research for particular items is a priority of the company doing it. It’s very specialized. So those companies do their own market research to ensure that the product they ’re working on is marketable and will fit within the market. Ms Woo-Paw: My final question is again for the same minister. What is this government’s strategy for nanotechnology research and development in this province?

150 Alberta Hansard March 2, 2011 The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Weadick: Well, thank you very much. Nanotechnology is one of the key areas that this government is focused on. As you know, in Alberta we’ve had some phenomenal breakthroughs, and we ar e considered global leaders in nanotechnology. Dr. Rob Burrell at the University of Alberta has done incredible work on nanosilver and its use in diabetic ulcers, in burn victims, and also in the treatment of very important types of pneumonia, where other drugs can ’t be used.

They ’re also now doing research on nanoplatinum and gold to see what other things can be done in Alberta. You ’re going to hear shortly some exciting news about nanocrystal. Homeless Management Information System Mr. Hehr: Mr. Speaker, I have been surprised at the minister of housing’s characterization of privacy laws in the province and how they apply to the nonprofit sector. To the minister of housing.

I am sure the minister knows that nonprofits like the Calgary Homeless Foundation are not subject to the FOIP Act and that no one can be made subject to the act by contract, but some privacy protection can be put into contract. Would the minister agree? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Denis: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. As an es teemed fellow member of the bar I ’m sure he knows that not every que s- tion can be answered yes or no.

He ’s quite correct that nonprofit organizations are not subject to the privacy legislation; however, when you have a contract between organizations like my self and the Calgary Homeless Foundation, they can be subject to the pr i- vacy act. In fact, that is exactly the case. We have that contract signed. People’s privacy is in fact protected. Mr. Hehr: Well, I thank the minister for that answer. It gives a little clarification.

Given that the minster said that the project to track the homeless will provide privacy protection by contract, can he explain what kind of measures have been placed in the contract to protect these things if the Calgary Homeless Foundation violates them? 2:30 Mr. Denis: Again, Mr. Speaker, as I answered the previous me m- ber who asked me this question, the Member for Calgary -McCall, in the last couple of days, the privacy act, in fact, does not apply to nonprofit corporations, but it does apply when you have a con- tract, and we do have that contract.

The FOIP Act does apply in dealings between us and the Calgary Homeless Foundation. In fact,

section 39 of that particular act states that there ’s no disclo- sure of personal information without c onsent. People in these organizations and homeless people that we provide services to are in good hands. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Hehr: Thanks, Mr. Speaker. I look at this privacy legislation and want to know: what are the contractual stipulations that will be put into force should the Calgary Homeless Foundation violate the principles? Mr. Denis: Mr. Speaker, I’ve answered this question repeatedly.

Today I want to mention one more time that March is actually the second anniversary of the 10 -year plan to end homelessness. Instead of dealing with answers and questions that I ’ve already gone over, I think this member actually should join us in celebra t- ing the fact that we have housed over 3,000 formerly homeless people in this province. Speaker’s Ruling Legal Opinions The Speaker: I know that both the hon. Member for Calgary - Buffalo and the hon.

Minister of Housing and Urban Affairs are distinguished members of the Law Society, and I know you’re having a good time with this exchange, but you both real ize – don’t you? – that questions requiring and involving a legal opinion are void in the question period. Why don’t you guys just go and have a coffee. Okay? The hon. Member for Athabasca-Redwater. Highway 63 Emergency Services Mr. Johnson: Thank you, M r. Speaker. Highway 63 is busy, r e- mote, and widely regarded as one of the most dangerous highways in Alberta.

Last June the admirable group of half a dozen volu n- teer firefighters from Wandering River who ’d responded to emergencies on this highway reached t heir breaking point. They were unable to continue covering this 150-kilometre stretch spa n- ning parts of three counties. Since municipalities are responsible for emergency services, my questions are for the Minister of M u- nicipal Affairs. Can the minister te ll my constituents what he ’s doing to ensure that Albertans travelling the Wandering River

section of highway 63 still receive emergency assistance when they require it? Mr. Goudreau: Mr. Speaker, we’re very well aware of the chal- lenges along this stretch of highway, and we ’ve been doing a fair amount of work on this particular issue. We ’re providing ongoing support to municipalities, including $500,000 annually for fir e- fighting training and $50,000 for recruitment and retention tools. Specifically, we have helped Athabasca county identify new r e- cruits and are supporting firefighters to deal with stresses and issues along that stretch. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Johnson: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. Given the uniqueness of this issue and the fact that it came to a head eight months ago and that the Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties passed a resolution three years ago requesting that the Alberta government set up staff for emergency response on highway 63, can the minister tell my constituents why the government has not yet stepped in with a solution to this problem? Mr. Goudreau: Mr. Speaker, we do need a sustainable solution – and I re -emphasize a sustain able solution – and that’s why we’ve got a cross-ministry working group.

They’ve provided recommen- dations on the highway 63 issue, and we ’re presently reviewing them. As we know, providing these services is a municipal r e- sponsibility throughout the provinc e, but that said, we want to ensure that the right tools and supports are available at the m u- nicipal level. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Johnson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I ’m glad the minister has some strategies to deal with this important issue, but can he give my constituents a timeline? When can my constituents expect to see some solutions coming forward on this issue? Mr. Goudreau: Mr.

Speaker, the timing will depend on the num-

March 2, 2011 Alberta Hansard 151 ber of solutions that we ’re presently looking at. Those solutions are there to support these communities and others in the delivery of emergency services at the local levels. Our solutions will co n- sider ongoing recruitment and retention, driver behaviour, and the right tools to ensure that emergency services are retained and i m- proved. Some actions should come in the very, very short term here while others will no doubt take much longer. Physician and Family Support Program Dr. Taft: Mr. Speaker, we all know there’s a shortage of doctors in Alberta.

My question is to the Minister of Health and Wellness. I give him that heads -up so that he ’ll pay attention today. There’s a shortage of cancer doctors. There’s a shortage of family doctors. There’s a shortage in many rural areas. The Alberta Liberals want to attract and keep doctors here. To the Minister of Health and Wellness: one of the successful innovations in health care delivery in Alberta has been the physician and family support program, so why is this government threatening to cancel it? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, I ’m not threatening anyone.

I a s- sume he ’s probably referring to the AMA negotiations. They ’re our lead negotiators for Alberta Health Services, for Alberta Health and Wellness, and for the Alberta Medical Association. They’re at the table, I think, even as we speak , possibly. I ’m not sure. They are negotiating, and the process, from what I unde r- stand, is working. I met with the AMA president last Friday. They raised some concerns. Those concerns were passed onto the a p- propriate sources, and hopefully they ’ll have a resolution, hon. member. Dr. Taft: Well, the minister is responsible.

Given the dramatic shift in the gender balance of our physician workforce toward a majority of women physicians, will this min- ister promise Alberta ’s women physicians that the physician parental leave program will be sustained? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, there are a number of important programs that have served physicians well, and that ’s why they’re negotiating right now. From the AMA ’s perspective they ’ve brought their issues forward, I’m sure. From the Health and Well- ness perspective our negotiators have brought those things forward. But there’s a lot more on the table than just the programs.

Those are important programs, and in a perfect world, yes, I ’d like to see them all continued. Dr. Taft: Again to the same minister. Being a doctor brings with it immense stress. Given that the physician support program helps doctors who are dealing with stress, trauma, grief, bereavement, abuse, addictions, and even suicide, will the minister promise here and now – stop dancing around it and just make the promise – that funding will continue for these programs that he ’s acknowledged work so well? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, I ’ll state it again. I ’m not on the negotiating team.

I ’m not at the negot iating table. We have an agreement that is going to expire prior to the end of March. I know the negotiators are there. They ’re dealing with the fiscal realities of our province. There are some difficult decisions that they’re wrestling with. Let’s give th em the proper due and the credit they deserve and the time that they need to sort those things out because that’s what they’re doing. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lacombe-Ponoka , followed by the hon. Member for Drayton Valley-Calmar. Supply of Diesel Fuel Mr. Prins: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

You know, the weather may be very cold outside, but the crop farming season is, hopefully, right around the corner. Many of my constituents use diesel fuel to help fuel their farm equipment, and every year they seem to get caught up in a diesel fuel shortage. My questions are to the Mini s- ter of Energy. What assurances can the minister provide so that Albertans won’t have to face diesel shortages in the future? Mr. Liepert: Well, Mr. Speaker, neither I nor any member of this Assembly can stand here and guarantee that we won ’t have a die- sel shortage.

The reality is that Alberta ’s economy is probably the fastest growing in all of North America, and that ’s going to put increased strain on our capacity. I do think it ’s important to point out, as the Member for Athabasca-Redwater talked about in his member’s statement, the North West upgrader refinery and the importance of that. By 2015, hopefully, those diesel shortages will no longer be around. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Prins: Thank you. That ’s true. It’s not just the farmers; it’s the oil and gas, transportation, and forestry industries. They ’re all affected.

It’s been brought to my attention that the cost of diesel fue l is also going up. Can the minister confirm the cause of this increase? Mr. Liepert: Well, I think the cause is pretty simple, Mr. Speaker. It’s supply and demand. I’d maybe add one other thing. I think there ’s some speculation that ’s going on. As you are well aware, we’ve got the international disruptions that are happening to the marketplace in the world. The price of crude is going up, and that obviously will have an impact on consumer prices. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Prins: Thank you very much. This is a critical issue.

I would hope this is not true, but are there any plans to regulate this indus- try? Mr. Liepert: Well, I assume that the member is referring to reg u- lating prices, and in essence that ’s a very simple answer. The answer is no. I can assure this Assembly, Mr. Speaker, that if there is one way to guarantee a shortage of diesel, that would be to regulate retail prices. In all likelihood what would happen then is that less crude would be refined into diesel, and we ’d have even greater shortages than what might be occurring. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Drayton Valley-Calmar.

Oil Sands Image in the United States Mrs. McQueen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The political and eco- nomic unrest in the Middle East has wreaked havoc on oil prices and has cast a spotlight on the need for stable oil sources. I unde r- stand that the Minister of International and Intergovernmental Relations has recently returned from a trip to Washington. My questions for the minister are: have American counterparts ’ views on Alberta oil sands changed given these present circumstances? If so, how? 2:40 The Speaker: The hon. minister. Ms Evans: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. That ’s an excel- lent question.

I ’m really confident as I stand here today that they

152 Alberta Hansard March 2, 2011 have got the total picture of the fact that we provide a third of the world’s oil, that it’s going to mean 343,000 jobs between now and 2015, and that a great part of their GDP, both from the crude oil manufacturing opportunities and the value -added GDP – it’s al- most $ 100 billion between now and 2025 if the oil sands are developed. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mrs. McQueen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister. Can you tell us: how does a situation in the Middle East and north Africa change the way Alberta advocates to the United States? Ms Evans: Actually, Mr.

Speaker, we’re trying to stick very much to our same message of a safe, secure source of supply, but fr e- quently we ’re getting people making that kind of commentary about their concerns. In America, for ex ample, they were talking about what other places we might market our oil if the Keystone pipeline weren’t going ahead. They’re very conscious of China. In the Middle East they ’re very conscious themselves of buying a l- ternative sources, like Kuwait ’s petrol eum group looking at Alberta as an opportunity for the future in order for them to have a secure supply. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mrs.

McQueen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Finally, to the same minister. I’m glad you mentioned Keystone. How does the chang- ing view of Alberta ’s oil sands affect the passage of important infrastructure projects like the proposed Keystone pipeline? Ms Evans: Mr. Speaker, when I was meeting with the governors at my last meeting on Monday afternoon, prior to returning home, they had calculated that 250 businesses along the American side of the lineup of the routing on that pipeline would benefit from Keystone. They’ve looked at that. They ’ve looked at the jobs. They’ve looked at the economic opportunity.

Expanding the pipe- line infrastructure means that they will be able to provide more for their markets. So I saw huge support, especially from all of those alignments on the routing, with the possible exception of some concerns still from Nebraska about the particular alignment. The Speaker: Hon. members, that concludes the question period for today. Nineteen members had an opportunity to participate. There were 114 questions and responses. In a few seconds from now we ’ll continue with the Routine. In the interim happy birthday to the hon. Member for Calgary - Montrose, whose anniversary actually was yesterday.

He’s now one day older and wiser. head: Presenting Petitions The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo. Mr. Hehr: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I ’m presenting a petition actually spearheaded by my neighbour Mr. Rick Bartlett, who is currently suffering from MS. His petition reads as follows: We, the undersigne d residents of Alberta, petition the Legisl a- tive Assembly to urge the government of Alberta to expedite the approval of the Liberation Treatment (angioplasty) developed by Dr.

Paolo Zamboni so that all patients including those with MS, suffering with chron ic cerebro-spinal venous insufficiency (CCSVI) can receive the treatment. I can inform you that Mr. Bartlett has received the treatment in Poland and is claiming a significant benefit from the treatment. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. head: Introduction of Bills The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Lougheed. Bill 203 Alberta Get Outdoors Weekend Act Mr. Rodney: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request leave to intr o- duce a bill, that being the Alberta Get Outdoors Weekend Act. Mr.

Speaker, this act will encourage and promote the direct and indirect benefits associated with outdoor activity. It purports that the benefits of increased outdoor activity can be far reaching and extend well beyond the areas of physical and mental well -being. The proposed legislation serv es as an educational tool for all A l- bertans on the natural heritage and lifestyle benefits associated with Alberta’s outdoors. It sets aside the second weekend of April of every year as Alberta get outdoors weekend. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. [Motion carried; Bill 203 read a first time] head: Tabling Returns and Reports The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health and Wellness. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. As prom- ised during question period today and in accordance with the long- standing tradition of this House, I am going to table five copies of a policy document titled Safe Disclosure. Essentially, it comes from an Alberta Health Services policy document that describes their policy called Duty to Disclose and also their policy called Protection from Retaliation for having disclosed anything. Thank you.

The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lethbridge-East. Ms Pastoor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As per your request yeste r- day, I’m tabling five copies of the

article from which I had taken the quote during question period. I have two other tablings. Again, these are letters and my cheques that I send monthly to a food bank in support of having AISH pay- ments match MLAs’ raises. For January it was to the Kainai Food Bank, and for February it was the Crowsnest food bank. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Currie. Mr. Taylor: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I ’m pleased to rise today and table the requisite number of copies of another le t- ter from a constituent of mine whose medical doctor is speaking out in support of the Alberta Medical Association’s physician and family support program and in support of continued government funding for that program. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity. Mr. Chase: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am tabling e -mails from the following individuals who are seeking the preservation of the Castle wilderness: Elaine Gryba, Chris O ’Brien, Helen Ilijoic, Ivan Taverner, Jacqueline Norton, Sarah Pasemko, Jason Abt, Laura Bentley, Eliz abeth Atherton-Reid, Dudley Booth, Neil Jennings, Joan Jochim, Andrea Becker, Bruce Botchar, David Gloag, Susan Sinotte, Andrew Paul, Riley Swendseid, Janet Rob- inson, Jack Boyle, Pat Lucas, Mary Trumpener, Caroline Saucier, S. Rynard, and Bertha Ford.

March 2, 2011 Alberta Hansard 153 Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have several hundred more e- mails that I will be tabling. head: Tablings to the Clerk The Clerk: I wish to advise the House that the following document was deposited with the office of the Clerk. On behalf of the hon. Mr.

Olson, Minister of Justice and Attorney General, a letter dated Feb- ruary 15, 2011, from the Minister of Justice and Attorney General to the chair of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and Services, attaching a report dated February 2011 entitled Disclosure of Infor- mation Regarding Leadership Contests: Discussion Paper and Cross-Jurisdictional Comparison, prepared by Alberta Justice. head: Orders of the Day The Speaker: Hon. members, it now being 2:48, if you go into committee, will you be out of here prior to 6 o’clock? Have a happy afternoon. 2:50 head: Committee of Supply [Mr.

Cao in the chair] The Chair: The chair would like to call the Committee of Supply to order. head: Main Estimates 2011-12 Finance and Enterprise The Chair: Before I go any further, I would like to speak about the speaking order and the times. The minister or any member of Executive Council acting on the minister’s behalf may make open- ing comments not exceeding 10 minutes. For the hour that follows, members of the O fficial Opposition and the minister may speak, and then for the next 20 minutes the members of the third party, Wildrose Alliance, if any, and the minister may speak.

For the next 20 minutes the members of the fourth party, the NDP, if any, and the ministe r may speak, and for the next 20 minutes the members of any other party represented in the Assembly or any independent members and the minister may speak. Then after that any member in the Assembly can speak. Within this sequence members may speak more than once; however, speaking time is limited to 10 minutes.

The minister and a member can combine their time for a total of 20 minutes, but the member has to indicate to the chair at the beginning of the speech that he or she wishes to combine their time with the minister ’s time. The hon. Minister of Finance and Enterprise. Mr. Snelgrove: Good afternoon. I ’m certainly open to whatever suggestions the opposition may have on the give -and-take. It ’s worked very well in the past, so if that’s okay with them, then we’ll do that.

I see we’re starting a little early, so I ’m not going to introduce my staff who were going to be here; either that, or they know something I don’t. Either way we ’ll certainly want to acknow l- edge the fact that there’s a great deal of wo rk that goes into the department, the budgeting and the work they do. I would like to thank them for that. As one of the government ’s largest ministries Finance and E n- terprise’s mission involves providing expert economic, financial, and fiscal policy advi ce to government.

It also includes providing effective tax and regulatory administration to enhance Alberta’ s future prosperity. The ministry is responsible for a number of core businesses: budget and fiscal planning; investment, treasury and risk ma n- agement; tax and revenue administration; enterprise, which includes industry and regional development and economic deve l- opment policy; and the financial sector regulation and policy.

There are also a number of other parts of the ministry, including the Alberta Capital Finance Authority, the Alberta Pensions Se r- vices Corporation, ATB Financial, and the Alberta Securities Commission to name a few. What all of this adds up to is a solid team working to help meet the goals contained in our business plan. You will notice that the business plans have been streamlined and shortened, which in no way means that we are any less committed to meeting our goal.

For instance, goal 1 of our 2011-14 business plan deals with providing economic, tax, and fiscal advice that supp orts strong, sustainable government finances. The priority initiatives here in- clude developing a long -term plan that will ensure Alberta ’s prosperity. This means continuing to strengthen our fiscal fram e- work and all of its components, including a savings s trategy. Other priorities under this goal include encouraging economic diversification and strengthening Alberta’s fiscal resiliency.

It also includes working with the federal government to ensure that tax structures enhance the energy sector ’s competitiveness and its contribution to both our economy and the country ’s economy as a whole. Goal 2 of the business plan deals with Alberta having a co m- petitive and productive economy. Initiatives for this goal include implementing actions under the Alberta Compet itiveness Act, implementing strategies to encourage value -added activities, and implementing regulatory reform initiatives to enhance our co m- petitiveness and productivity.

I think we’ve proven our commitment to this goal through all of the work that ’s already been done on the competitiveness initi a- tive. We created a Competitiveness Council to identify Alberta ’s competitiveness gaps and developed meaningful actions to address them. The council has already released a benchmarking analysis and will release its full report later this summer. As another exa m- ple, Productivity Alberta, in place since 2008, has been working with industry and other government ministries to make sure the programs and services we deliver are optimally targeted, devel- oped, and delivered.

Goal 3 of the business plan focuses on revenue programs that are administered fairly, efficiently, and effectively. Priorities u n- der this goal include advancing electronic commerce for our tax and revenue programs, helping people to understand the fair ness of our tax system, which will encourage compliance, and making sure we ’re as effective as we can be to manage collections and program compliance. Alberta’s tax system continues to be the best in the country, with Albertans and Alberta businesses paying $11 billion less than they would under any other province ’s system.

This goal is about supporting this tax system by encouraging payment, making it easier for payments to occur, and making sure we’re proactive about collections and compliance. Goal 4 o f the business plan deals with sound investment, trea s- ury, and risk management. The priorities here involve providing effective leadership in government -wide cash and debt manag e- ment as well as risk management and providing our investment manager with investment strategies for achieving optimal inves t- ment performance.

As an example of how we ’re meeting this goal, we provide our investment manager, AIMCo, with overall investment guidelines to follow as they manage nearly $70 billion of investments for the government of Alberta. This includes the heritage savings trust

154 Alberta Hansard March 2, 2011 fund as well as public pension funds. Within those guidelines AIMCo returned 7.5 per cent on the heritage fund’s investments over the first nine months of 2010-11, meeting the benchmark. Goal 5 of the business plan focuses on policy and regulatory oversight for the financial, insurance, and pensions sectors that is effective, fair, and in the interests of Albertans. The priorities here are to work with other jurisdictions to improve retirement income adequacy as well as maintain a provincially -based securities regu- latory system.

It also includes monitoring and regulating the financial services sector to ensure affordable, efficient, and fair systems for insurance, pensions, and other financial services. What this means for Albertans is that we will continue to fight for their interests on the pension front, working to make sure that Albertans can retire with some assurances of a reasonable retir e- ment income. It also means we will continue to stand up for our right to regulate securities at a provincial level instead of the sin- gle federal regulator Ottawa is pushing on the provinces.

We will work to make sure that Albertans can access affordable and eff i- cient financial services, including insurance. The final goal of our business plan deals with accessible fina n- cial services for Albertans. Our priorities here include making sure that ATB continues to operate on sound fiscal and business pri n- ciples and ensuring that ATB operates with a comparable regulatory and financial framework to similar financial institu- tions. The priorities also include maintaining appropriate lending, funding, and risk management policies for the Alberta Capital Finance Authority, or ACFA.

ATB is a valuable part of the prov- ince’s network of financial institutions, and this goal is about keeping ATB strong not only for the clients but for all Albertans. When it comes to the ACFA, it provides an opportunity for certain nonprofit groups such as municipalities to access capital a t a reasonable rate, meaning they can borrow with the province ’s preferred credit rating backing them up. This is key to helping municipalities build and grow at a reasonable cost to their citizens as we will continue to support the ACFA in this role.

The heritage fund 2011- 14 business plan is included with the Finance and Enterprise business plan. The fund’s business plan is approved by the heritage fund standing committee and has two goals. The goals deal with ensuring that long -term returns are maximized at a prudent level of risk and that the heritage fund aligns with the fiscal goals of the province. Now that we ’ve gone over our business plan, I ’d like to take a few moments to provide you with some of the highlights from Finance and Enterprise estimat es. Our revenue is forecast to i n- crease about $698 million from Budget 2010.

This is due to increases in a number of areas, including $495 million in corp o- rate income taxes due to improved corporate profits as we come out of the recession, $80 million in net income from the Alberta Treasury Branches, $45 million in personal income taxes as A l- bertans’ income continues to grow, and $35 million in fuel tax due to increased consumption. These increases are somewhat offset by things like a forecast decrease in investment income as market volatility continues and a decrease in some of the federal funding due to specific programs being completed.

Our expenses increased just over $106 million from Budget 2010. This increase is made up of a $39 million increase in pr o- gram expense and a $68 million increase in debt servicing costs. The increase in program expenses is related to things like $14 million in the teachers ’ pre-1992 pension plan based on updated actual evaluations, $20 million in investment management cost s, and $1 million increase in the transfer to the access to the future fund.

These increases are partially offset by reductions in the depar t- ment due to general budget restrictions and reduction to the enterprise division relating to regional economic dev elopment alliances, for example. The increase in debt servicing expense relates to increased borrowing by ACFA for local authorities and direct borrowing the government is doing for capital purposes. These increases are partially offset by reductions in d ebt servic- ing costs of $23 million as we pay off the province ’s debt as well as the ongoing repayment of school construction debentures.

This brings me to the end of my presentation. I believe we have demonstrated our commitment to achieving the goals in our bus i- ness plan, including actions we’re taking to meet those goals. I am also confident that we ’ve explained some of the reasons behind our revenue and expense numbers, and I ’ll look forward to the questions that follow. 3:00 The Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr. MacDonald: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I would prefer if we could have, hon. minister, a question and an answer. This has worked out in the past; you’re absolutely right.

With other ministers I am not confident in the exchanges, but cer- tainly with this hon. gentleman I would prefer that. Before we start, I would just like to say officially on the record that I appreciate the hard work you put in on behalf of the taxpa y- ers and citizens of this province. It ’s a difficult time we ’re going through. I have had the opportunity to visit the Assembly and the Annex at a very early hour in the morning, and I look over in the parking lot, and it ’s the hon. minister’s truck, I believe, that I see. It’s not parked there overnight.

You’re coming to work very early in the morning on behalf of taxpayers, and I would just like to express my gratitude to you for that. Now, that being said, we certainly have our differences, and we have our questions with this budget, and I think the hon . minister understands that. The first question I have relates to a statement that was made in the throne speech and on the production figures or the estimates that are made in the budget and in the fiscal plan. In the throne speech it states – and I’m going to quote, Mr. Chai r- man. This is from page 5, and we ’re talking about enhanced oil recovery here.

It is estimated that an additional 1.4 billion barrels of oil can be produced using this technology. To put it in more familiar terms, Alberta could produce more conventional oil in the future than it has already produced in the past. This could generate up to $25 billion in additional provincial royalties and taxes. Now, in the fiscal plan on page 49 there are a number of oil assumptions, and we all know the important role oil, gas, and bitumen play, the price for these products, and the effect it has on our budget. I ’m going to go to conventional crude oil production.

It indicates that for 2010 -11 we had 471,000-barrel -a-day produc- tion, and it’s going to remain relatively flat or steady across to the year 2013-14 at 459,000 barrels a day. It ’s interesting to note, before I get to the CAPP, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, statistics here, that we see in the third -quarter forecast and in the se cond-quarter forecast for this current fiscal year, 2010-11, where there is a 47,000 -barrel-a-day increase in conven- tional oil production.

That indicates to me that for some reason this year it’s going up, but the CAPP forecast for the future is much less than what you have in your assumptions. CAPP is forecasting that for the next 10 years we will have light and medium conventional crude oil. We will have production rates in thousands of barrels a day, roughly 300,000 barrels a day, going down by the year 2025 to 200,000 barrels a day. Yet the gover n- ment makes this statement in the throne speech that we’re going to

March 2, 2011 Alberta Hansard 155 get these billions of dollars in extra royalties and taxes from an increase in production, from enhanced oil recovery. That ’s not reflected in CAPP ’s estimate, and CAPP ’s estimate, for the r e- cord, is from June 2010, s o I would like an explanation of how all this fits together. How can that statement be made?

Then at the same time, if we go to page 101 of the fiscal plan, we will see where with carbon capture and storage – I was a fan of this going back many years because I think this is part of the sol u- tion – we are spending $518 million over the next three years, $2 billion in total, and three of the four projects that are mentioned on page 101 indicate that as a result of the CO 2 capture, we’re going to have enhanced oil recovery.

If we’re spending this kind of money at this time on enhanced oil recovery – there’s a contradic- tion here – why is CAPP saying that production is going to go down, yet in the throne speech this government indicates it ’s go- ing to go up and that we ’re going to get $25 billion from that increased production? Thank you. I hope I sort of . . . Mr. Snelgrove: No. Exactly. I get exactly what you ’re saying, and I guess that ab solutely enhances why we have to go to this enhanced recovery.

On their own, if the drilling industry or the oil production industry was left to what we ’re doing now, there is no question that the conventional oil production would significantly drop off because they can’t get that oil out using the conventional methods now. If we are not in the middle of this game, to use that, to gather that carbon and to work with industry to get it to those old fields, to inject it and to reinvigorate those fields and ac tually, you know, produce the oil, we would be absolutely where CAPP is saying. The hon. member would be absolutely right.

Our con- ventional oil would probably drop down, you know, in this program to the 200,000 barrels a day for sure. Now, this is not unp roven technology. It works, we know it works, and I know the hon. member has talked about it. By co- ordinating these activities and partnering with business on the capture and the pipeline to the fields, to a certain degree we’re feathering our own nest. We are going to give those companies the opportunity to produce that oil. On both accounts you’re right.

If CAPP was left, if that industry was left, production would decline, yet with the significant i n- vestment we’re making, we’re going to be able to maintain the production levels probably around that half a billion barrels a year. On both ones you’re right, but I think you helped make our arg u- ment that it’s really important to continue with enhanced oil recovery. Too much of the discussion really got to be about car- bon sequestration, just pumping it down with no other purpose.

That’s why the multiple benefit here of investing in that techno l- ogy and enhancing the oil recovery actually works for the taxpayers very well. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you.

Am I correc t in assuming that the higher production value predicted by this government for the next two fiscal years than what is predicted in CAPP ’s 2010 report, where they indicate we would have around 300,000 barrels of conventional crude oil production a day – and you were indicating that we will have close to 484,000 or 471,000, depending on what year – that 170,000-barrel-a-day increase or amount of production, would be potentially from enhanced oil recovery? Mr.

Snelgrove: Hon. member, you did quote that that w as a CAPP document from June of 2010, and I think we would both agree that the situation around oil has changed dramatically from just about a year ago, you know, in the price. We are bouncing around now at around a hundred dollars a barrel, and the solidi fy- ing of solid oil prices and the economic growth requiring the de- mand is quite different than it was.

I absolutely am not going to question CAPP from June of 2010, and I would look forward to what their projection numbers are when their report comes out i n June again this year and see what their numbers are to that. We take the numbers from the drilling applications that come forward, so we may even have more up-to -date information than CAPP itself would have because they are reported to by the co m- panies, yet we know before the action even happens how many applications are there for well sites. 3:10 Mr. MacDonald: Thank you very much.

Now, this increase or this assumption of this increase in conventional crude oil produc- tion: if that is coming from enhance d oil recovery, from CO 2 sequestration, what, if any, would the projections be from this government in increased production that would come from the new process of fracking, with the new technologies for fracking old, mature fields? Do you anticipate that any of the money or the increase in production that ’s mentioned in the throne speech is possibly coming from the new technology that allows old, mature fields to produce just as much in the future as they have in the past? Mr.

Snelgrove: That is a good point. With the horizontal fracking that they can do now and the technology they ’ve got to chase that drill bit where they want to go and frack up into the seams, abs o- lutely. I can tell you – and I know you know I live out in the heavy-oil capital of the coun try – that what they ’re doing in the old fields or even on old sites with the new technology is abs o- lutely going to contribute to this production of what were previously thought depleted fields. So the hon. member is abs o- lutely correct in his assumption th at that technology is going to contribute greatly to this.

Even in the heavier oils and stuff that may not be enhanced, just what you’ve pointed out is directly related to an increase in production and the opportunity for much less of a footprint on the la nd to recover significantly more oil from the fields here. You’re right. You’ve got it. Mr. MacDonald: Mr. Chairman, I would like to note that this is an economic advantage because the rights -of-way are already there. The production facilities are already sited.

So the costs for the companies should be significantly less, and hopefully we will see a substantial amount of money flow to your treasury or to your bank vault, wherever it is in this building. I hope you have to use a wheelbarrow to get it all in there. And he can count it. I ’m sure he won’t miss a penny. I would like to ask, now that we ’re on that subject, about the business plan.

In the business plan on page 54 you note – and I think this is quite controversial – the performance measures for the combined tax and royalty rates for Alberta ’s natural gas and conventional oil production in comparison to similar jurisdictions. Now, of course, we know this is a new performance measure. Last year there was hardly one, and the year before that it was a r ange of up to 25 per cent, which, of course, we know was seldom if ever met. The three- year target for natural gas, for a combined royalty and tax rate if I ’m reading this correctly, is around 39 per cent. That’s the royalty and the tax.

We all know the price of natu- ral gas, and I agree with your remarks from the other day at the Hotel Macdonald on natural gas and the immediate future for natural gas. Conventional oil: you were indicating that there is a 43 per cent take on this whenever we’re compared to some other jurisdictions, which go unnamed in this performance measure. My question. I

156 Alberta Hansard March 2, 2011 did some math on the throne speech here, and if we are to get this $25 billion from an additional $1.5 billion increase in production at the market prices that you quote – $89 in the budget, $89.40 or whatever it is – that’s a combined tax and royalty take of 22 per cent. I would like to ask the minister: if we were to produce this oil and collect this $25 billion, do you think that is within the pe r- formance measure that is mentioned on page 54? Mr. Snelgrove: What exactly is your question? W hether 22 per cent is the right royalty rate? Mr.

MacDonald: Looking at this statement from the throne speech, 22 per cent would be $25 billion. That would be 22 per cent of the total value of that oil if it was produced now, at today’s prices, and we know that the price is going to be much higher over that period of time. Hopefully, it will go up at least a little bit. My math indicates that $25 billion is a 22 per cent take, combined royalty and taxes, and that is not nearly what you were anticipa t- ing you need in your performance measure on page 54 of the strategic business plan. Right? Mr.

Snelgrove: To be clear, you’re talking about the government of Alberta business plan, not the department of finance business plan, which is okay. Mr. MacDonald: This one. Mr. Snelgrove: Yeah. That’s right. Mr. MacDonald: That’s part of your budget. Mr. Snelgrove: That’s okay. I’m just pointing out for someone that might be watching and trying to understand but looking at the finance business plan. We have to use what the number is today for price. I think you’re probably right.

When the carbon capture and sequestration is in effect – and we’re dealing with prices 25 years or 30 years from now – I doubt very much that it will be a hundred million dollars. But it will be relative because I doubt that our costs will stay static, too. I mean, if the oil goes up to $140, it’s very likely that with inflation other things will not put us in a significantly different situation. If that’s the math, if you’re asking me if 22 per cent is the number, okay. But we are dealing with a li ttle bit of hypothetical projections here.

You know, we’re saying that if oil is at the price it is and our royalty rates what they are now, that’s what we would generate. Mr. MacDonald: I can live with that, but this hypothetical projec- tion is in the throne speech, which is the blueprint for the future as articulated or written by this government. Now, I would like to go back to the fiscal plan and again talk about royalties, and this is on page 49 of the fiscal plan. I see your oil assumptions again for crude oil and bitumen.

If we were to do a calculation at your projected price and your projected production levels, do the math and then look at what you’re anticipating to get, or are forecasting, in royalties with conventional crude oil, the calculation that I have indicates that we’re collecting on average $10.89 a barrel in royalty on conventional crude oil production. That is, again, a lot less than what would be measured by this performance measure in the business plan.

So, again, at these cu r- rent pri ces is $11.00 a barrel royalty in conventional crude oil production adequate in the minister’s estimation at these current production levels and price projections? Mr. Snelgrove: If the hon. member wants to have the discussion about the royalty rates, I guess that’s okay because it’s his time. Mr. MacDonald: Well, it’s your document. Mr. Snelgrove: That’s right. All of the percentages and all of the issues around – keeping in mind the difference between bitumen royalties and oil prices. Keep in mind that i n the throne speech it does say that it could produce.

So you have to base it on assumptions, and our assum p- tions are based on industry projections – I mean, I know you know that how we do it is by averaging – from a collection of about a dozen different g roups that give us the projections. So we use them. Are they right or wrong? We have to do something, so we use the same methodology that we have for years, and if you e x- trapolate them out, those are the numbers you get. So we could have a discussion about whether we should be charging more ro y- alty or less royalty.

Especially for somebody who’s got a background in labour and actually knows how to – we also have to keep in mind the people that are working, which contributes to it, too. If we have the discus sion about the royalty rate, I think we also have to ask ourselves: is it not as important to make sure that the sector that we’ve got has the opportunity to have a job as opposed to putting a royalty rate that may return more from oil, but if it’s not produced or if the wells aren’t drilled, we don’t get anything? 3:20 The Chair: The hon. member. Mr. MacDonald: Yes. I can appreciate the hon. minister’s point.

I’m reading again from the provincial budget brief from CIBC, which had a lot to say about the potential borrowing habits of this province. The minister is absolutely right. They state in here that “rising activity in the oil and gas and other sectors are expected to contribute to an increase of 41,000 jobs in 2011.” That certainly is positive. I’m sure that whenever you were doing your calculations for this budget document, oil was trading around $80 a barr el. This morning on the way to work it was over a hundred dollars a barrel, and that was west Texas intermediate.

That’s not Brent North Sea crude, which is . . . An Hon. Member: It’s $114. Mr. MacDonald: Yeah. For sure, and the price of the product is creating a lot of this activity, and this is certainly, I agree with the hon. minister, good activity for the province. Now, the royalty rates in the fiscal plan for bitumen. Your bi- tumen production estimates are almost bang on with CAPP’s going out into the future for both mining and in situ bitumen pr o- duction, so that’s interesting. Their conventional crude oil rates are declining, but you’re on the same page as far as bitumen pr o- duction.

There are projects that are supposedly in payout. The projects up by Fort McMurray that will be in payout are going to be a fa c- tor in increasing the amount of revenue that we take in in bitumen royalty. Now, you know the laws, and I don’t. When they go into payout and then decide six months later to add another stage to their facility, do they go back to the old royalty rate? Mr. Snelgrove: For their expansion? Mr. MacDonald: Yes. Mr. Snelgrove: It would fall under the royalty write -off rate, or the start-up, but once that facility has achieved payout, it stays at payout.

The documents that deal with these are this thick, and they address all sorts of issues around what’s allowable and what’s not allowable.

March 2, 2011 Alberta Hansard 157 You also made a point for us that we’re trying to use in our budget projections, that it is easier to predict bitumen because of the fact that it is a mine that they can’t move away. When these companies, regardless of what company, come into northeastern Alberta and invest billions of dollars in that mine site, they’re committed to the project

whereas with natural gas at the drop of a valve they can pick up their half -ton and go to Saudi Arabia and get gas. They can get it anywhere. But they can’t move those mines or those big in situ projects; they’re here. They know that when they make that investment, they’re going to be operating them for 60 or 70 years, likely, in some areas or until it’s depleted, and then they just move the well pads a little bit. We do have, I think, more certainty when we talk about royalty from bitumen.

Obviously, the price of oil can fluctuate, but we’ve taken one of the things out because in natural gas you have pr o- duction and price uncertainty. With bitumen you will still have some price uncertainty, but your production levels will be, to your point, easier to predict with an amount of certainty just because of the nature of the production of bitumen. We do have a little more certainty in the projections of bitumen than we ever would have with natural gas. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you for that. Mr.

Chairman, to continue along that line, we look at what occurred with Kearl Lake and Imperial Oil and the fact that they decided to have $250 million of steel fabrication done in South Korea – right? – at a time when many of the steel fabrication shops in Calgary and in Edmonton were idle or working a modi fied week just to keep their key e m- ployees around.

Do you think that we should continue that practice of allowing this work to go offshore at the same time that we are giving royalty and tax breaks here and particularly – you can understand this coming from a rural constituency – when a country like South Korea, if my research is correct, has an 80 per cent duty to protect their local farmers from the products that we grow and would like to export to them?

How is it fair that they can subsidize their steel industry in that country, protect their farmers from competition from Alberta growers and producers, yet we allow Imperial Oil these tax co n- cessions and royalty concessions to ship this work offshore? Do you think that if we really want to create a lot of jobs in this prov- ince, we should be doing that work here? Mr.

Snelgrove: I don’t think it’s fair to point to Imperial Oil and say that they’ve got something in South Korea and that’s bad, when if you and I got in our cars and went to Walmart and saw all of our neighbours and friends taking out the TVs: they’re made in China. If we went out and got in probably a third of the vehicles here, I’m sure they are Hyundais, that are made in South Korea. If you look at the equipment on our roads: Samsung. You know, if we start to say what we can and cannot buy from around the world, we lose.

You know, if you go back to the 1850s, China and India at that time accounted for 40 per cent of the world’s trade. Then they changed their regimes and, especially China, decid ed that they were going to stay home, and they literally turned their economy around. A hundred years later they were less than 6 per cent of the world trade. You can tell by the standard of living in China that it did not serve their country well to close their borders. We could have a dozen days here of discussion about the merits of free trade.

Now, I wholeheartedly agree with you that we need to work with them about some of these barriers to agriculture and their protection, but we can’t do it as a cou ntry when we hide behind the Wheat Board and all of the supply management areas of agr i- culture that we protect. In my world as, I’m sure, in yours that’s called blow and suck. We can’t ask other countries to do som e- thing that we’re not prepared to do ourselves. But we need to work on it.

Because these are big vessels and they got world attention and the route that they’ve got to go to get here and the fights in Mon- tana and Idaho, it’s easier to say: well, gee, that would be simpler if that was built here. But I can assure you that Imperial Oil went around the world to get the best price and in some cases the best technology to do it. Would I like to see them here? Absolutely. But would I say to business, “You have to buy local”? Boy, that would be a tough call to make. Mr. MacDonald: That’s certainly interesting.

I would hope that at some point in the future if we were to reduce those trade barriers for agricultural products that South Koreans, among others, have, then situations like what occurred with Impe rial Oil and their Kearl Lake modules – and I read in the newspapers that they’re now being reduced in size so they can travel on the interstates up to Montana and then on up to Fort McMurray. It’s in no one’s best