Manitoba Hansard — 2 May 2001 (Sitting 23, 37th Legislature, 2nd Session)

37-2-23

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LI No. 23- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 2, 2001 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. ASPER, Linda Riel N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky, Hon. Inkster N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise Seine River P.C. DERKA CH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charles wood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. Wolseley N.D.P. GERRA RD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PENNER, Jim Steinbach P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia N.D.P. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Joy Fort Garry P.C.

SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosano, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

111 9 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 2, 2001 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mani toba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Yvonne Krahn, C. Des Ender, Ann Rizebol and others, praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro (Mr. Selinger) consider alternative routes for the additional 230kV and SOOkV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. Kenaston Underpass Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Crystal Barenz, Sybill Portz, Lloyd Portz and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) consider reversing his decision to not support con struction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Jerry Gordon, Chad Wrixon, Melanie Carrette and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) con sider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), I have reviewed the petition. It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth: THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul has the highest concentration of high voltage power lines in a residential area in Manitoba; and THAT the R.M. of East St.

Paul is the only jurisdiction in Manitoba that has both a SOOkV and a 230kV line directly behind residences; and THAT numerous studies have linked cancer, in particular childhood leukemia, to the proxi mity of power lines. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro consider alter native routes for the additional 230kV and SOOkV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. Kenaston Underpass Mr. Speaker: The Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen), I have reviewed the petition.

It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is 12 times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and

11 20 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 200 1 THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection burn up approximately $1. 4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over eight tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Morris (Mr. Pitura), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: The Clerk, please read.

Madam Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the Province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is 12 times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection burn up approximately $1 .4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over eight tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIO NERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. * (13 :35) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Comm ittee of Supply Mr. Conrad Santos (Chai rperson): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bi1116- The Farm Practices Protection Amendment Act Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour and Immigration (Ms. Barrett), that leave be given to introduce Bill 16, The Farm Practices Protection Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia protection des pratiques agricoles), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Ms. Wowchuk: This bill allows the Farm Practices Protection Board to review its own orders and to change, revoke, or replace an order if it considers it an inappropriate action. The intention is to allow the board to move quickly, responding to technical change. The amendment will also remove time limits and board members' terms of appointment and amends the provision that sets out the board's procedural authority. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the gallery where we have with us from Minnetonka School, 26 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Larry Patrick. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Riel (Ms. Asper). Also, seated in the public gallery from Maples Collegiate, 16 Grade 9 students under the direction of Ms. Sheryl Peltz. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for The Maples (Mr. Aglugub).

Also, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today His Excellency

May 2, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 21 Lennart Alvin, Ambassador of Sweden to Canada. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD The Maples Surgical Centre Government Position Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the Government's policy around The Maples Surgical Centre seems to change from one day to the next. One day the Premier says, and I quote: I am proud of the fact that our Minister of Health (Mr.

Chomiak) drew the line in the sand that said no to a private, profit company from British Columbia from coming into this province. We say no to private public health care. The next day his Minister of Health says that Doctor Godley should negotiate with the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. So I would like to ask the Premier what his position is today. Does he agree with the Minister of Health or does he have yet another position? * (13 :40) Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Unlike the member opposite, I do not invent terms for my own political purposes.

The member from Kirkfield Park has repeatedly changed the terms of the audit that was released yesterday, the Price waterhouse audit, the due diligence, Mr. Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: The Pricewaterhouse due diligence, when it was identified- An Honourable Member: Oh, you are changing the terminology. What is it? Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

They keep changing the terms for their own political benefit because they cannot face the truth that this purchase was deemed to be in the benefit of $1. 2 million for the people of Manitoba, and it would double the number of patients available for surgery at that centre. Unlike members opposite, we make good decisions for the people of Manitoba and we make good decisions for patient care, something that never entered into their minds for 11 years in Manitoba. Workers Compensation Cases Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): I am delighted to hear the Premier's prepared answer.

I did not ask about the Pan Am Clinic, however. The WCB operates at arms' length of the Government and is outside of medicare. It has always negotiated the quickest care for its clients, be that at a private clinic here in Manitoba or outside of the province. Why is the Premier allowing his ideology to prevent the WCB from accessing The Maples Surgical clinic for care? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I am not aware that the clinic has any patients to date. Mr. Murray: I would like to table a February 7 letter from the WCB to Doctor Godley. I will quote the portion from the letter.

It says: In our discussions with Government, they clearly do not want the introduction of private hospitals in Manitoba. Therefore you should not include any WCB clients as part of your planning. Will the Premier be contacting the WCB to say he is sorry for his original directive, inform them that The Maples Surgical Centre is not a hospital, inform them that his policy has changed yet again and that the new directive from this Government will allow Doctor Godley's clinic to negotiate directly with the Workers Compensation Board? Mr. Doer: I was expecting to hear sorry from the Member for Kirkfield Park.

He has had a caucus last week that alleged and stated that I was, quote: a fishing partner of Dr. Brian Postl. I have been expecting an apology for the last three days, and if this person was a leader he would have apologized, but he is cle arly not. If anybody is going to say they are sorry it is to the

11 22 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 200 1 Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) who, for the last 24 hours, has been stating that the good will benefit or proposal in the due diligence was a "bonus." Members opposite know [interjection} Mr. Speaker: Order. * (13 :45) Mr. Doer: Members opposite would be fully aware that on top of the $17 0 million purchase price for Centra Gas for bricks, well not even bricks and mortar, but for pipes, there was a $65- million good will payment to purchase the Centra Gas company by members opposite, Mr. Speaker.

It is time they started being honest with the people of Manitoba. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. May I remind all honourable members, when the Speaker rises, all members should be seated, and the Speaker should be heard in silence. I would ask the full co-operation of all honourable members. The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question. Mr. Murray: On a new question, Mr. Speaker. Ideology is driving this Government's decision making, and it is clearly having a negative impact on their ability to deliver quality health care to Manitobans.

The Premier sends patients out of province to private clinics for overnight treatment on a regular basis at great cost to taxpayers. I would like to ask the Premier: What is the diff erence between The Maples Surgical Centre and the out-of-province private clinics that he sends Manitobans to that cost millions of taxpayer dollars annually? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, this is the crux of the issue, because the member opposite should know that when there was a recommendation from CancerCare Manitoba to send patients down to the United States before the election campaign, the former government would not do it.

They put political objectives ahead of patient care. After the election, our Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) put health care for patients ahead of politics. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, we learned today that a nurse from Pinawa, a Workers Compensation client, has been off the job since January awaiting knee surgery. The Pan Am Clinic has informed her that she could be waiting for up to six months for that operation. I think it is interesting that she could get into The Maples Surgical Centre if this Government would do something, because her doctor works at The Maples Surgical Centre.

So can the Premier indicate why his ideology is preventing her from going to see The Maples Surgical Centre for quicker care? Mr. Doer: This is where politics again trumps patient care when it comes to the Tories. They put a cap on the Pan Am medical clinic when they were in office. They paid money, including for-profit and patient care as part of that cap. They then have the cases for Workers Com pensation Board going to the Pan Am Clinic. As part of our agreement, we are going to double the surgeries and remove the Tory cap on patient care. Mr. Murray: Mr.

Speaker, the Premier spends mill ions to send patients out of province to private clinics for overnight treatment where he could get the same service right here in Manitoba. His ideology is blocking progress, and it is blocking improved access to care closer to home. Mr. Speaker, can the Premier explain why he spent $7.3 million to buy the Pan Am Clinic, when all he had to do was to allow a clinic to perform more surgeries? Mr. Doer: We have not, quote: Spent $7.1 million.

The due diligence is continuing, unlike members opposite who spent $32 milli on on SmartHealth, spent tens of mill ions of dollars on frozen food. We have put the information forward. The proposed purchase of the Pan Am Clinic by the Winnipeg Health Authority is on top of-[interjection} Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, they were opposed to bricks and mortar. I guess they are opposed to the Victoria Hospital's capital renovations. I guess they are opposed to the $52-million renovations at the Brandon General Hospital that they announced and cancelled six times.

I guess they are opposed to the $15 0 million for the Health Sciences Centre.

May 2, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 23 We believe in a multiple approach clinic that is cost-effective according to the numbers. We are spending less money on doubling patient care at a clinic than they spent on a U.S. con sultant of $4.5 million to fire a thousand nurses. * (13 :50) Workers Compensat ion Board Use of Private Clinics Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Premier a very important question of policy. The Workers Compensation Board operates outside of medicare. It is funded by premiums from WCB. Its health care is not part of medicare.

It has always contracted for medical services. I would like to ask the Premier today: Can he assure the House that his Government will not give political direction to the WCB and allow them to continue what they have been doing for decades, purchasing health services for injured workers from wherever they think they can get it best to expedite the return of those workers to the workforce? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated yesterday, we could maintain the status quo.

We could go the way the Conservatives want us to, go to private clinics, private hospitals, U.S.- based system or we can try a different way. We could go towards a system that would meld the best of the private with the public. WCB clients can go to where their treatment is offered. Contrary to what members opposite are saying, the letter from the WCB indicated in our discussions with Government they clearly do not want the introduction of private hospitals in Manitoba, a policy that was supported by that member opposite in this Legislature, and until recently, I thought they supported as well. Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Speaker, the matter of the WCB purchasing health care is not within the purview of the Minister of Health, it is the Minister responsible for WCB (Ms. Barrett). I am asking the Premier (Mr. Doer) whether or not he will assure Manitobans that the Workers Compensation Board, which pays for health care out of WCB premiums, will be allowed to continue to purchase, without inter ference from the Government, on behalf of injured workers to speed their return to the workplace? The question should be answered by the Minister responsible for WCB. Mr. Chomiak: You know, Mr.

Speaker, members opposite first went fishing and alleged something that we know is not true; then they attacked the doctors yesterday; now they are talking about political interference. Members opposite do not have case, so they are just spinning around and spinning stories. On this issue specifically, I want to indicate- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Opposition House Leader, on a point of order? * (13: 55) Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Beauchesne's 417 : Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. Not only do we have a Minister of Health who is provoking debate, we have got a First Minister (Mr. Doer), who I would expect more from, answering to a member on this side of the House. He is shouting across: I will never answer your questions, Darren. What is this Government coming to? Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, you will note in the member's question that the member was insisting and demanding that the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board answer the question, something that the member does not have right to do. Mr. Speaker, I was explaining why it is important from a policy standpoint for the Minister of Health to deal with that question.

11 24 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 2001 Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order. I would like to remind all honourable ministers that a point of order is a very serious matter, and I would like the full co-operation of all honourable members, please.

The honourable member does have a point of order, and I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable minis ters that according to Beauchesne's Citation 417: Answers to questions should be brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and to not provoke debate. * * * Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, The Maples clinic the members so strongly support, the doctor from B.C. who has come in here, who runs a for profit system in B.C. that members are supporting 10 0 percent, that clinic has been authorized by the College of Physicians and Surgeons to operate as a clinic. They can operate as a clinic.

If referrals are done there, they can do those kinds of referrals; but we told them, contrary to what he wanted to do in the first place, we were following the policy of members opposite as well, that we do not want private hospitals in Manitoba. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier (Mr. Doer). Will then he confirm to the Workers Compensation Board today that they are perfectly free to negotiate with the Godley clinic to provide service for injured workers since they are outside the medical system and they are funded by Workers Compensation Board premiums? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, although the members are very strongly advocating for that one particular for-profit clinic from B.C., in the letter to that clinic from the WCB, let me quote a letter that the members handed out: Further to your pre-sentation on January 24, we wish to confirm that the WCB funds physicians, not clinics, and only physicians operating in centres that are approved by the province. Pan Am Clinic Purchase- Business Plan Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Cha rleswood): Mr.

Speaker, it was confirmed yesterday by Doctor Post! what we feared all along, that there was no business plan produced around the sale of the Pan Am Clinic. Could the Minister of Health tell Mani tobans, without the support of a business plan, what exactly did he base his decision to buy the Pan Am Clinic on? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Over the past 11 years that I have been a member of this House, I have never seen a due diligence report that I recall that has been tabled in the Legislature. I have never seen a due diligence tabled before a deal was finalized, Mr. Speaker.

I have never seen it provided to members opposite. The due diligence report states, and I quote-and members now are challenging Pricewaterhouse. The base case net present value of the 5-year cash flow projection for the existing facility is $5 .1 million. Com paring the purchase price of 3.9 to this value indicates a net benefit of the acquisition of 1. 2 which indicates that the acquisition is fair from a financial point of view of the WHRA. First they fished for stories Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr.

John Loewen (Fort Whyte): I ask the minister to put factual information before the House because the same report says: We do not express an opinion or any other form of assurance on the financial statements of Pan Am or any financial or other information or operating or internal controls of Pan Am. It goes on to say: We express no assurance of any kind of any such information. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Fort Whyte, he does not have a point of order.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable members a point of order should be a breach of the rules or the use of unparliamentary language and not to be used for debate. * * * * (14 :00) Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): As I indicated, the due diligence was very clear, and

May 2, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 25 this information was provided to the public, something that I have not seen in my years in this Chamber, Mr. Speaker, which was an openness and providing the documentation. It is interesting that they were against the doctors yesterday. They are against Pan Am Clinic, and- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne's 417 : Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. Mr.

Speaker, if you listen to the question and the answer, I will leave it up to you. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): The Opposition is getting up on all these points of order that are just so frivolous. They love the sound of their questions. They do not like the sound of the answers and the truth. That is what this is about. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order.

Beauchesne's Citation 417 : Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and to not provoke debate. * * * Mr. Chomiak: The due diligence report by Pricewaterhouse, a world-respected firm, goes on to say: Through a review based on the base case financial projections for the existing facility, the acquisition is economic and fair from a financial point of view to the WRHA. Purchase -Department's Position Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Cha rleswood): would like to ask the Minister of Health if his department supported the purchase of the Pan Am Clinic. Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, from the first initial meeting that we had with other Health ministers one of the most difficult issues facing all governments was private clinics. It was faced across the country. Alberta went the Bill 11 route. Ontario is now saying privatize, privatize, privatize. As early as last year, I was saying that we in Manitoba wanted to develop a made-in Manitoba solution which would see the melding of the private sector with the public sector in order to increase capacity for surgeries while retaining integrity of a universally accessible access system.

In addition, I indicated at the time that we had a Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation report that indicated that when you run private beside public, the waiting lists go up. Based on that, we made a policy decision: we would try a made-in-Manitoba approach. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, the minister did not answer my question and I would ask it again. Is it not true that his department's staff recommended against the purchase of the Pan Am Clinic because it was a bad deal for Government? Mr. Chomiak: With regard to the specific statements of the members opposite.

First they said it was a deal because we were fishing buddies with Brian Postl. That was proved wrong, Mr. Speaker. Then they said this was a deal for the doctors there because they are getting a bonus, and they are proved wrong. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne's 417: "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." The question was very clear: Did the department approve the purchasing of the Pan Am Clinic? Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order. Mr.

Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the member in his statements did not even reflect the actual question, but I will try to confine my remarks to the specific question.

11 26 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 2001 Mr. Speaker: On the matter raised by the honourable Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne's Citation 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and to not provoke debate .. *** Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, this is the first time I have ever seen a due diligence report provided to the public. They provided all of the information for determination prior to even a final agreement being signed, and if the member has information I wish she would table it. Pan Am Clinic Purchase Mr.

John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, the Doer government's ideology has forced the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority to make instant millionaires of Doctor Hildahl and Doctor Lukie by purchasing a building assessed at $1 million for $2 .8 million. Why did the Minister of Health instruct the WRHA to proceed with a $2 .8 million purchase of a commercial building when he could have leased the space required to double day surgeries for only $24, 000 a year? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, dealing- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, there were two independent appraisals done by independent and licensed appraisal individuals that determined the value of the building. Members are now questioning, I assume, those independent appraisals and are going with their own information which has been suspect throughout this entire process, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Loewen: Why did the minister not insist that Doctor Hildahl and Doctor Lukie maintain ownership of the building or sell it privately to realize a fair market value instead of paying $2.8 million of taxpayer money? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, as I have indicated earlier, we are trying to do some innovative new approaches to health- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, for the past decade during the Conservatives' terrible handling of health care, we have been forced for the past 18 months to rebuild the system. Now we are being innovative, and I will rely on the words of the surgeon yesterday who said not only will it attract more surgeons and retain surgeons, but he will be able to double the number of surgeries he does. Mr.

Loewen: I would ask the Minister of Health to explain to Manitobans why he spent $2.8 million of taxpayer money to create two mill ion aires instead of using those funds to provide more services to Manitobans. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, that is in sharp contrast to earlier questions from members opposite when they wanted us to give money to their private clinic that is coming from B.C. for profit; but I will rely on Coopers and Lybrand, I will rely on WHRA and Brian Post!, and I will rely on those physicians and surgeons who said they will be able to double their surgeries and they will stay in Manitoba.

Point of Order Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, for clarification I would like the Minister of Health to correct the record. I believe that the firm that they used this time was Pricewaterhouse, not Coopers and Lybrand. Maybe he could get his facts and his information correct before he comes to the House. * (14:10 ) Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, two points on that. I believe they merged Price Waterhouse and Coopers, firstly, and, secondly, there are no mill ionaires created. The only mill ionaires created were under the MTS fiasco. Mr.

Loewen: With regard to the minister's statement on the same point of order, he should read his own report which clearly indicates, from PricewaterhouseCoopers, that Doctor Hildahl

May 2, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 27 and Doctor Lukie received $2.8 million. If that is not creating mill ionaires, what is? Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson), it is not a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. Health Sciences Centre Out-patient Pharmacy Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My question to the Minister of Health deals with his new, innovative, made-in-Manitoba, high cost, low-quality health care system.

This concerns issues being raised by parents of children with cancer who are in the gallery and one of whom is a constituent of the minister, and it needs to be taken seriously. Children with cancer are being put to extra time, extra risk, extra inconvenience by the closing of the out-patient pharmacy at the Health Sciences Centre. I ask the minister when he will end the new services shuffle from one institution to the other instead of having things in one place. When will the minister reopen the out-patient pharmacy at Health Sciences Centre? Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minist er of Health): As I indicated yesterday, the out-patient services were as a result of a national shortage of pharmacists, and the action was taken by the WRHA to consolidate the services. An inter departmental intergroup was put together to deal with these issues. Services were transferred to Misericordia and a transportation system is in place to have the prescriptions delivered from Misericordia hospital to the residences and follows the same procedure that was in place at the Health Sciences Centre. Mr.

Gerrard: Perhaps the minister would provide some justification to the parents who are in the gallery as to why this system is so superior to the earlier one, which was all the service at one place compared to the new system which is a shuffle back and forth and back and forth. Mr. Chomiak: As I indicated yesterday, there is a national shortage of pharmacists. There was a need to consolidate services, to preserve the services that were off ered by pharmacists. There is an interdepartmental working group that is working on this to try to see how we can best provide the service.

The services were transferred to Misericordia hospital. There was transition and assistance put into Misericordia hospital. A transportation system was put in place so people would not be inconvenienced. There may have been, in the transition, some difficulties, and we will work on it. We will try to improve the situation. There is ongoing dia logue and ongoing process to deal with this situation. Mr. Gerrard: I ask the minister, once more, if it is correct in my

interpretation of his answer to the urgent needs of children and parents with cancer and other conditions that instead of having a simple system which would provide clear and quick access to drugs, the minister has indeed created a much more complex system and is seeking to spread the blame instead of taking the responsibility where it should be, on your shoulders, and making sure that the Health Sciences Centre pharmacy is open. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, the WRHA made a recommendation because of the shortage of pharmacists to consolidate the service and to allow for in-patient services, to not provide the retail service and to redirect services into the community- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, if the members- Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, and to redirect their retail and to provide out-patient services at Misericordia hospital, which was not a preferred option but was the only realistic option that could be entered into by the WRHA given the existing conditions of a shortage of pharmacists. Mr.

Speaker, no one likes these situations. That is why we are training more doctors. That is why we are training more nurses. That is why we are expanding all of our training programs so we do not get into this position down the road. Mould and Asbestos Abatement Program Dauphin Project Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauph in-Roblin ): My question is for the Minister of Government

11 28 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 200 1 Services. This Government established a mould and asbestos abatement program which undertook a pilot program in the Dauphin Regional hospital. Could the minister tell this House the reasons for the establishment of this program and when the work is expected to be completed in Dauphin? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Transp ortation and Government Services): This program, I think, is evident of the kind of innovative approach we are taking as a govern ment. We have a major problem with mould.

We put together a training program that has trained 17 people now who are experts in mould and asbestos abatement. We are completing the pro ject in Dauphin, and I am also pleased to say, Mr. Speaker, that we have saved the provincial government $1 20,000 over the alternative costs of doing it. So we are saving money training people and dealing with the major problem we have with mould. Health Sciences Centre Out-patient Pharmacy Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

I wonder if the Minister of Health might explain to this House why he has closed the pharmacy at the Health Sciences Centre and the cancer patients and the transplant patients are now having to pay for the services of getting those drugs. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I was advised this afternoon when I checked into that, that in fact there is no additional charge for the patients for this. That is what I was advised. Mr. Laurendeau: I wonder if the minister might check on whether there is a charge if it is being delivered to the patients' homes because there were some charged this morning.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker- Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When I checked into it this morning, I was advised that there is no difference in terms of charges that are applied than had been applied in the past. Pan Am Clinic Purchase Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health. This Government has made a horrible decision as it relates to the purchase of the Pan Am Clinic. Manitobans have paid an enormous price to get no more services than they were getting prior to this Government taking over the Pan Am Clinic.

I want to ask the Minister of Health specifically what services, besides lifting the cap, Mani tobans can see an enhancement in as a result of this purchase. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, as was indicated by the WRHA yesterday, we will see expanded services provided in the Pan Am Clinic. We will see pressures off the tertiary care and community hospitals so that they are able to do more high level surgery and put a capacity through the Pan Am Clinic. We also see a strategy where doctors and surgeons-and one came on air yesterday to contradict the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Murray) and was very clear that we would be retaining surgeons and we would be doing a double number of services, and that it was not what the member opposite characterized it as, as a bonus. * (14 :20) Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell the House why a Dr. Peter MacDonald said that the reason they decided to sell the Pan Am Clinic was because of fear, and I repeat that, because of fear of this current Government's anti-private clinic stance? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, I will not even attempt to deal with a quote from someone else, because I have heard so much that has been inaccurate from members opposite. I will indi cate that that same physician and surgeon on radio yesterday said that this matter would help maintain physicians here, would attract physi cians here, and he would see personally a doubling of the surgeries that he is providing.

May 2, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 29 Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I can understand why this minister is having difficulty with this issue. I want to ask the minister whether or not the services, in terms of doubling the number of patients that are going to be served because of this purchase, could not have been achieved had simply the cap been increased rather than having to spend $4 million on the purchase of this clinic. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, there are different options. We could maintain the status quo and keep the cap on imposed by members opposite.

We could have kept the cap on the members opposite put on. That is status quo. Mr. Speaker, we could go the private route and pay private for-profit that members clearly want to advocate, or we could try an innovative approach, one-time capital purchase integrated into our system, operate, keep the doctors here, double the surgeries, which is not too bad for a one-time investment in a system and that has clearly been indicated that it would be finan cially viable by the due diligence done and by the WRHA who after all are the operators and do make these decisions for their patients. Mr.

Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Mr. Speaker: Order. I have a ruling for the House. On April 24, 2001, during the Budget debate, the honourable Acting Deputy Speaker took under advisement a point of order raised by the honourable Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Rondeau) concerning language allegedly spoken across the House by the honourable Member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Maguire). The Acting Deputy Speaker took the matter under advise ment in order to examine Hansard and ascertain what was on the record. I have reviewed the Hansard of April 24, 2001.

At the time of the point of order, the honourable Member for Arthur-Virden did not have the floor, nor was there a record in Hansard of the words complained of being attributed to the honourable member. Therefore, I must find that there is no point of order. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Pan Am Clin ic-Pu rchase Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, this Government has once again enraged the people of Manitoba by simply throwing their hard-earned money away without a sound business plan and without any foreseen benefits. The purchase of the Pan Am Sports Medicine Centre was an unnecessary waste of taxpayers' money.

The Doer government's preoccupation with their political ideology has clearly clouded their ability to make sound business decisions. Instead of weighing the ef fectiveness of all possible options for expanding health care services, this Government chose to buy the Pan Am Clinic with no evidence that this was the best decision for the betterment of health care in our province. This dangerous precedent leaves Manitobans to wonder whether this Government intends to purchase every private clinic in the province, thereby sending the cost of health care soaring to unprecedented levels.

Will the people of Manitoba benefit from the purchase of private clinics or ju st the buildings' owners? Furthermore, this Govern ment, knowing that the public would not approve of the details of the purchase, inten tionally avoided disclosing important infor mation about the deal. When asked, on several occasions, to tell Manitobans what was pur chased with taxpayers' money, they repeatedly omitted the fact that they chose to give $700,000 to Pan Am physicians.

The Doer government refused to explain why they purchased a building for $2 .8 million when they could have doubled the number of day surgeries by renting the same space for $24,000 per year. Mr. Speaker, this Government knew full well that the people of Manitoba would not support this move if they were given all the information. This too leaves the people of Manitoba wondering what other details of this backroom deal is this Government hiding.

11 30 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 200 1 Public Schools Capital Program Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to draw the attention of this House to the $45 million in new capital funding being provided to our public schools for the upcoming year. The focus of this year's capital improvements will be repairs to Manitoba's 700 existing schools. I am most pleased to celebrate the sod turning at the long-overdue new gymnasium at George Waters and St. James Colle giate, which gym they had been sharing for far too many years.

This Government inherited a backlog of schools that require major architectural, me chanical, electrical and structural improve ments. These outstanding needs are being addressed in this Government's first two budgets and that commitment will be continuing in the years to come. This year's public schools capital announce ment will create more than 13 00 jobs throughout Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, $1 3.87 million of the $45 million will be allocated to much-needed repairs, with the remainder being put toward new capital projects.

Over the past two years, the capital funding of this budget has totalled over $10 0 million, representing an important step in addressing years of neglect under the previous government when capital budgets fell to as low as $1 8.3 million in 1994-95. This round of public school capital is providing $1. 2 million to a $1 .6-million gym nasium project at St. James Collegiate, with the remainder of the funding coming from St. James-Assiniboia School Division.

The signi ficant investments that are being made by this Government today will help to ensure that our children will have safe and comfortable environ ments in which to learn well into the future. This funding for public school capital will help to ensure that our schools and our young people are ready to meet the challenges of the 21s t century. * (14: 30) Agricore Elevator Opening Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I rise today before the House to speak to an event that has recently occurred in the constituency of Lakeside. April 27 marked the official opening of Agricore's new south lake high through-put elevator.

The concrete elevator follows a trend that has changed the prairie landscape and devastated smaller rural communities over the past decade. Despite the fact that Agricore is a Canadian farmer-owned agribusiness, each such mega-elevator spells the demise of a number of smaller elevators. In this case, the sacrifice was five smaller elevators which had been located in the communities of Warren, Teulon, Stonewall, Netley and Selkirk. Smaller elevators find them selves unable to compete with these new units.

Agricore and their competitors claim that larger elevators allow for greater efficiency in terms of higher through-put and have special crops handling and marketing capabilities and reduced overlap at the management and administrative levels. However, losing an elevator often spells the demise of smaller communities where the loss of rail lines and other agricultural-related busi nesses often follow suit.

Agricore and the Department of Agriculture should take into consideration some of the negative consequences that these mega-elevators have on small towns and local farmers who are often inconvenienced by longer hauling distances and inflexible service, also, the people who are left unem ployed as a result of these amalgamations. Reggie Leach Hockey Tournament Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): I rise today to draw the House's attention to an event which occurred recently in my constituency, the 3rd annual Reggie Leach Classic Hockey Tournament.

No doubt many of us will recall the Riverton Rifle, who played with the Stanley Cup winning team of 19 74-75. As a result of prac tising for up to eight hours a day with a lead weighted puck, Reggie developed one of the most fearsome slapshots in the history of the game and set the record for the most goals in a Stanley Cup playoff series at 19 , in the '75-76 season. He did this at a time when there was one less playoff round than there is today. The record still stands. Reggie's accomplishments in the game of hockey are many, in fact, too numerous to relate

May 2, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 31 in two minutes, so I will stop at this point. Indeed, his hockey accomplishments, extra ordinary as they are, are not really what I want to highlight today in the Legislative Chamber. Instead, I would like to emphasize the fact that, rather than resting on his laurels, Reggie is putting his fame to very good use in sponsoring tournaments such as this one in Riverton for the benefit of minor hockey. In addition, he is also a motivational speaker about the perils of drug and alcohol abuse based on his own personal experiences earlier on in his life.

It is for this more than anything that I think Mr. Leach deserves the acknowledgement of the House today. His return to his roots, and his dedication to today's youth show him to be a true humanitarian and a real hero in my eyes. Achieving success and fame in the sports arena is a laudable thing, but it pales in comparison to seeking selflessly to improve the lives of others. Mr. Speaker, my hat is off to the Riverton Rifle, Mr. Reggie Leach, one of the Interlake's finest sons. Thank you. Pont Provencher Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Monsieur le president, aujourd'hui je parle du Programme Infrastructures Canada-Manitoba et le pont Provencher. Le pont Provencher est important. C'est un pont tres important pour les citoyens de Saint-Boniface, les citoyens de Winnipeg et les citoyens du Manitoba. La question aujourd'hui, c'est Ia priorite du gouvernement NPD. Le pont Provencher est une priorite pour Ia ville de Winnipeg. Le pont Provencher est une priorite pour le depute federal de Saint-Boniface, !'honorable Ronald Duhamel, et pour le gouvernement federal.

La question aujourd'hui, le pont Provencher est-il une priorite pour le NPD? Est-il une priorite pour le minis tre des Finances et !'honorable depute de Saint-Boniface (M. Selinger) a cette legislature? Le pont Provencher est important pour Winnipeg, le pont Provencher est important pour le Manitoba. II est temps que le gouvernement NPD nous indique si le pont Provencher est son priorite. II faut prendre une decision. M. le president, pourquoi le gouvernement NPD hesite-t-il a prendre une decision? Translation Mr.

Speaker, today I am speaking about the Canada/Manitoba Infrastructure Program and the Pro vencher Bridge. The Pro vencher Bridge is important. It is a very important bridge for the citizens of St. Boniface, the citizens of Winnipeg and the citizens of Manitoba. The question today, Mr. Speaker, is the NDP government's priority. The Pro vencher Bridge is a priority for the city of Winnipeg. The Pro vencher Bridge is a priority for the federal member for St. Boniface, the Honourable Ronald Duhamel, and for the federal government. Today's question: Is the Pr ovencher Bridge a priority for the NDP?

Is it a priority for the Minister of Finance, the honourable Member for St. Boniface (Mr. Selinger) in this Legislature ? The Pro vencher Bridge is important for Winnipeg and for Manitoba. It is time that the NDP government indicate to us whether the Pro vencher Bridge is its prio rity. A decision need s to be made, Mr. Speaker. Why does the NDP government hesitate to make a decision? * (14: 40) ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Just a couple of notices, Mr. Speaker. First, it will be the intention of the House to deal with condolences next Wednesday.

Second of all, it will be the intention to deal with the second readings on the Order Paper tomorrow, and then it would be the intention to go into Supply following the second readings. Third, the Standing Committee on Agriculture will meet on Monday at 6:30 p.m. in Room 255 to consider the motion referred by the House to that Committee. Before moving Supply, Mr. Speaker, would you see if there is unanimous consent of the House to vary the sequence of consideration of Estimates as outlined in paper 11 3 by setting

11 32 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 200 1 aside the Estimates for Executive Council in the Chamber

section in order to consider the Estimates of the Department of Industry, Trade and Mines. This change is to apply for today and tomorrow. Mr. Speaker: For information, Condolences will be considered in the House for next Wednesday; and tomorrow second reading of bills, then Supply tomorrow; and the Standing Committee on Agriculture for Monday night at 6:30 p.m. Also, is there unanimous consent of the House to vary the sequence of consideration of Estimates, as outlined in the sessional paper 11 3 by setting aside the Estimates for Executive Council in the Chamber

section in order to consider the Estimates of the Department of Industry, Trade and Mines? This change is to apply for today and tomorrow. Agreed? Is there agreement? [Agreed] Unanimous consent has been granted. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, this is to advise the House-l do not believe consent is required but there will not be a sitting of Supply in 255 for this afternoon. I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Smith), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr.

Speaker: Is there agreement of the House for only two sections of Supply to meet this afternoon? [Agreed} It has been moved by the honourable Attorney General, seconded by the honourable Minister of Consumer and Cor porate Affairs, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Agreed? Agreed and so ordered. * (14 :50) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Con current Sections) CONSERVATION Mr. Chai rperson (Harry Schellenberg): We will call the committee to order.

I just want to notify that only members and the minister's staff can sit at the table; others must sit back further in the audience, please. Thank you. Good afternoon. Will this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Conservation. When the committee last sat, it had been agreed to have a global discussion on the entire department, and once all questioning was completed the committee would then pass all lines and resolutions. We are on line 12. 1 Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $458,800. Shall the item pass? Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): believe the minister was going to report back to the committee on flows for the Assiniboine River diversion and projected capacities from yesterday's questioning. Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): Yes, yesterday I made a commitment that I would endeavour to get information in response to the member's ques tion regarding the diversion channel from the Assiniboine River to Lake Manitoba.

Prior to construction of the Portage diversion, I guess, flooding of the Assiniboine River between Winnipeg and Portage Ia Prairie appears to have been a regular occurrence, and I understand ex tremely severe, as well. This unusual land formation resulted in flooding and made it difficult for water to drain back to the river following a flood crest. The water eventually would drain back through other drainage systems, but I guess while it was doing that it would delay crop planting by weeks.

So in order to alleviate that situation and to reduce flooding in Winnipeg, this 18 -mile-long channel was constructed from the Assiniboine River at Portage going north to Lake Manitoba. Mr. Chairperson, the diversion capacity is at 25 000 cfs from the river to the lake. There is a fail-safe

section of about 3000 feet in length where the capacity is 15 000 cfs. The fail-safe

section exists to prevent, as the member pointed out yesterday, overtopping and erosion of the

May 2, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 33 main dikes on both sides of the channel under extreme flow conditions. So the capacity for that channel is 25 000 cfs. At the fail-safe section, 3000 feet in length, the capacity there is 15 000 cfs. I believe that is what the member was asking yesterday. I think also another question that he was asking was I believe the silting. I think he said the channel is shallow and therefore it does not work properly.

The information that I have as a result of getting staff to do research for me, apparently a detailed survey at the Portage reservoir was carried out this past winter. Less detailed surveys of only a few cross-sections were done at least three times in the last 10 years, I am told. We have not had the time to do an in-depth comparison as yet, but it appears that the reservoir has reached the state of equili brium. Silt that is deposited in the spring and summer is eroded in the fall and winter whenever the reservoir is drained and flow is confined to the conduit.

The reason for this winter's detailed survey was so that a staged storage curve could be developed for the reservoir to aid in the springtime operations, and the contour plan of the recent survey should be available shortly. I believe those were the questions that the member was asking yesterday to which I could not respond immediately. Mr.

Faurschou: I appreciate the minister's rapid response in this regard, and I think I would like to reserve further questioning of the minister, not at this time, but potentially we can review the results of the survey once complete because I do believe it is a valuable asset for the Portage la Prairie area for water retention and potential irrigable waters. I would appreciate if the minister and I could get together sometime. So, with that, Mr. Chairman, I would like to defer to my own colleague for Virden. Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Chairman, further to that, I just wondered, maybe I missed it.

I would like to ask the minister if he could give us an update. I think I asked a bit yesterday, as well, on an update of the banks of the diversion, construction-wise or their present condition, or did we answer that? Mr. Lathlin: I thought we did answer that. Mr. Maguire: I wonder if he could just give me a quick update on it. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I am advised that, whenever the fail-safe

section is utilized, some erosion takes place, and then repairs are done afterwards. Apparently, these repairs have not been that effective over the long term. It keeps happening, I guess. A further assessment of repair needs and protective measures will be undertaken this coming summer. A cross-section of surveys will also be undertaken to determine whether the capacity of the lower region of the diversion has diminished over time due to siltation, so I believe, yes, we are doing some thing.

We are reviewing it, and probably by the fall time we should have a good picture of whether there needs to be further work in order to make it more ef fective or whether whatever it is we are doing now will be sufficient. * (15: 00) Mr.

Faurschou: Within this study, will there be consideration of additional low-flow capacity constructed through the drop structures, in other words, a lower piping within the drop structure so that you could draw down the water to a lesser level, because the lower channel has been eroded and a lot more water stays in the channel over winter and ultimately a lot more ice is in the channel when spring water run-off start flowing into the channel from the river.

So you are already starting with a lot more ice, and when you are talking about your survey work, the drop structures already have a pipe through them to draw the water down, but because of the erosion the lower channel is deeper now so that consideration should be given to install piping through the drop structure so that you can draw the water level down within the channel to a greater degree.

This has been a consideration, but seeing that the minister has referred to an overall study of the channel itself, please be inclusive in studying the drop structures as well and perhaps for he inclusion of lower water level piping installed in these drop structures. Mr. Lathlin: I would like to advise the Member for Portage la Prairie that apparently we are going to be looking at that situation at the same

11 34 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 2001 time that we are looking at these other issues. I am advised by my staff that we should complete that work by this coming fall. So probably by fall time we will have a better idea. Mr. Maguire: So the study that you will do will be comprehensive to the Assiniboine River diversion. Is there anything that the minister can provide to me at this time in relation to the quality of the banks near the outflow end of the diversion as it approaches Lake Manitoba?

I guess my question is in relation to the quality of the original structures or the comparison of what we have today with original structures. How much flooding has occurred perhaps over the last few years? Has this spring's high flow through the Assiniboine diversion been an excess problem and what developments might have come out of this spring's high water? As my colleague from Portage has pointed out, there was a lot of ice that went through the facility this spring with the boom. It certainly did not catch it all.

I am wondering, you know, you indicated that the gates and structures were fine yesterday, but my question is more in regard to: With that much ice going through it, it certainly was not designed for that, and so are there any other complications that maybe we want to be aware of or things to watch that you can tell me now that will not necessarily come out of the study this fall? Mr. Lathlin: I believe we are talking about the overflow section. We are talking about that part of the channel, the fail-safe

section that is about 3000 feet in length. I think we talked about that yesterday as well. [interjection] Yes. I thought the Member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou) was asking us to pay that part of it, but I understand that we are continuing to work on those banks to stabilize. I am not at this time aware of any other major problems other than that part of the channel that we talked about yesterday. Mr. Maguire: I guess I would just like to switch for a moment if I could just to get a better handle on the amalgamation of the departments and that sort of thing, Mr. Minister.

I would like to ask the minister, Mr. Chairman, if he could provide me with any details on the organizational chart, I suppose, in regard to additions that he might have included. I do not know if this is the same flow chart we had last year or not; it is right at the front of the supplementary information provided. If he could inform me which councils and committees might have been added over the past year and to give us some background on that if there is any. * (15:10 ) Mr. Lathlin: Yes, I can give the member some information with regard to the work that has been done to date on the integration ef forts.

Let me say this. I think in my opening remarks I touched on some of this yesterday where I talked about, you know, we had steering committees. We had talked to as many staff at all levels as we could because we wanted to make sure there was staff support for the integration process. So it has been a long exercise. I myself found it not frustrating but I was I guess wanting to get the job done as quickly as I could because you are dealing with a department that is being amalgamated, and then there are ongoing issues that you have to deal with on a day-to-day basis.

At the same time you are trying to integrate the two former depar tments. We have a new organizational chart. We have added two advisory groups to the already several advisory groups and boards that we have. The Aboriginal Resource Council was established as an advisory group to the minister with issues having to do with First Nations, Metis people. That council consists of, I believe, 16 members. We have members from all across the province, and we have two elders serving in that council at the present time. We have another group that has been added. That is the Manitoba Round Table for Sustainable Development.

Actually that group was really reconstituted, I guess. In the round table we have some of the former members of the former round table. Then we added on former members of the Manitoba Environment Council. We put those two together and that is what we have today, the Manitoba Round Table for Sustainable Development. I should also say though that we have a new division called the Environmental Stewardship division. Under that division we have

May 2, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 35 Environmental Approvals. By the way, this new division is headed up by an assistant deputy minister. Under the ADM we have Environmen tal Approvals, we have Sustainable Resource Management Branch, and then a third box in that chart is the Aboriginal Relations branch. The Environment and Natural Resources regions are now combined. We have a single set of seven regions, and that includes headquarters here in Winnipeg. Mr. Maguire: I would like to thank the minister for that update on some of those whole new areas.

Can you indicate to me the number of meetings that the Round Table for Sustainable Development, you know, maybe outline a bit of the work that they have done since you recon stituted it last year in regard to the combination of the old Sustainable Development group and the Environment Council? Mr. Lathlin: I am going to guess here, because I do not have the exact information, but I know, I think we have met, oh, maybe five times since we reconstituted the round table. At the last meeting of the round table I posed a question whether, you know, because in between meet ings we have committee meetings.

At the last meeting I think a couple of committees did not, could not complete their reports in time for this big round table meeting. So I asked the question whether we were meeting too often, you know, do they want more time in between so that they can do their committee work in the interim, and they said, no, we want to stick to the schedule. They were fine about it. Now I have ju st been handed some information here. Yes, it has been five times that we have met. Mr. Maguire: So you have mentioned a schedule, Mr. Minister. Have you got a schedule? Do they hold regular meetings? Mr.

Lathlin: We meet as a round table about every two months. As I said earlier, in between the regular meetings there are subcommittee meetings that are held. Mr. Maguire: Are there other subgroups, I guess, within the round table now that are meeting on specific issues, and how many would there be? Mr. Lathlin: Yes, there are several subcommittees that have been charged with certain responsibilities. I do not exactly remem ber the names of the committees. Mr. Stan Struthers, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr.

Acting Chairman, rather than trying to guess the exact names of those committees, I would like to propose to the member that I get him the names of those committees. I know we have committees because I meet with them and they give us reports. Could I propose to the member that I get the names of those com mittees? I prefer to get the exact names rather than trying to guess. Mr. Maguire: Yes, just a follow-up to that, I was going to ask the minister the kind of work that each committee does, and if they have any reports could you make those available to me as well. Mr.

Lathlin: Yes, we could make those reports available. For example, I believe I have already tabled the annual report for the Manitoba Round Table 1999-2000. That has been completed. I have tabled that in the House, but in addition to that I can give you some of the work that the various committees are doing. I know for sure one of them is an education committee, outreach. I sit on two committees as well, so I can give you that information. Mr. Maguire: That would be fine, Mr. Acting Chairman. I do want to continue with this line of questioning, but my honourable colleague from St.

Norbert has come in and would like to ask a few questions. He just has a few points that he would like to make with the minister in regard to the general discussion that we are having. So I would turn it over to him. *( 1 5:20) Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Mr. Minister, I wonder if you could just bring me up to speed on the floodproofing that is occurring within the city of Winnipeg. I will bring you up

11 36 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 200 1 to speed a little bit on what the problem is we are having. The City of Winnipeg is in control of the diking program for the city of Winnipeg, but under the agreement we had struck we would retain 20 percent of the EMO funding until such time as they had proved that they had put in place a structure or signed of f that they were going to flood proof their properties. The problem we are having on Lord A venue in particular is one area. The City is, I cannot say dragging their feet, but it is taking a little longer than it should have.

We have some money that is being withheld from some of the homeowners, varying from $5 ,000 to $40,000 that is owing to them by EMO which cannot be paid to them until such time as they have either agreed to the floodproofing or applied for the floodproofing or have the dike in place. Well, they would like to apply for the diking program, but they cannot because the City is saying they fall under the principle of their diking program.

So I was wondering if the minister could speed this process up a little bit, seeing as the residents are prepared to sign letters that say they are willing to dike if the City does not. Could they not get the same criteria established with them as the people in the rural areas did, where they signed off and said they would construct over a period of time the dike, so they could receive that extra allocation from the EMO? Right now we are withholding these funds. They would even be prepared to use some of these funds toward building their dikes.

All it takes is an approval from your department, sir, to say that you are willing to accept their signatures saying that the dike will be built. We did it in the rural areas, it worked, and I do not see why we should be holding it up. In this case of this one, it is the City that is the roadblock right now. Mr. Lathlin : I wonder if the member could give us, maybe not now but immediately afterwards or sometime during today, more specifics, those issues we can look further into, those files and see if we can move them along faster than they have been. Mr.

Laurende au: If the honourable minis ter's staff would like, they can look at Lord A venue as the first experience. On Lord A venue we have got a number of residents-as a matter of fact, one of them is an MLA. It is the Member for St. Vital, Linda Asper. She is one of those that is being withheld her funds right now, and she agrees that, you know, they are prepared to put in the program but let us have our money. The whole street actually on Lord A venue from one end to the other from Linda's house right down to the end, they have all agreed that the diking should take place.

They are saying just let us sign off and say that, yes, it will, but the City is the roa dblock. The City is saying, well, we have to have approval first. Well, there is a meeting this Thursday on the diking proposal. It is actually going to happen on the 3rd so that is this Thursday for their diking proposal. But if somebody disagrees, then they will each have to do it individually. All I am saying is why do we not let them at least sign on or sign off on an individual basis rather than being held hostage by the City of Winnipeg. That is what the City of Winnipeg is doing.

It is holding a number of them hostage right now because, I mean, they are sitting on $40,000 that should be coming back to them, that is owing to them at no fault to you, Mr. Minister, but at the fault of the City for saying, no, I am not going to let you sign on to the dike program. They were not allowed to sign the dike program because the City was, in ef fect, saying this is where a city primary dike or secondary dike will be established on these properties, which was not fair in this case where you would take a whole street and say, no, you cannot even sign on.

They are afraid that if they do not get signed on or do not get this approval in a hurry, they are going to fall outside of the diking program which is coming to an end. They had been told that many times. You have to remember this is '97 now, and EMO basically is going to finally close all these claims, and they will not be able to get their funds. So they are a little concerned that these funds will not flow, and they will fall outside of the dike program. We have some on Trappistes road. We have some on St. Pierre. We even have some in the Fort Garry area, some on St. Mary's Road.

There are a number of private residents who have run into this problem because they

May 2, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 37 ended up with the City having to construct the dike. Kilkenny, King's Drive, Parkwood Place, these are all areas that are affected. It is not, again, due to your department, sir. It is because of what the City has done, saying they are going to be responsible for the primary dike. What we are saying is if the City is going to be responsible for this primary dike, then let us get them to sign it off so these people can at least get their money from the EMO. I mean, it has been since 19 97, and in all fairness I think they have waited long enough.

They suffered during the 1997 flood and I think that they should have that money back in their pockets. They spent the money already and there is no reason for them not to have recouped it. Everybody else was able to in the rural areas. Everybody in the city who built their dikes have already been able to recoup that 20 percent, and there is no rhyme or reason to us holding this money away from these people. Mr. Lathlin: Okay, I will make a commitment to the Member for St. Norbert to look into those files with a view to making them move along so that they can come to a successful conclusion. Mr.

Laurendeau: I do not mean to put the minister on the spot here. Do not get me wrong, but could I get a commitment, Mr. Minister, that their files will not be closed and that the oppor tunity for floodproofing will not end because they are being held hostage by the City of Winnipeg at this time? I mean, I think it would be appropriate for us to take a stand here and say, no, their files will not be closed. They will not fall out of the floodproofing program because of what is happening in the city.

I think that they should have an opportunity, if the floodproofing pro gram for the city fails, to step back up to the plate. Mr. Lathlin: Yes, we can advise the member that during this Estimates process here, our commitment is, although we cannot definitively say it today without knowing all the details of those various files, that I will make a com mitment to the member that we will check on those files and move them along. Mr. Laurende au: I appreciate that, Mr. Minister, and I will bring your words to the constituents of St.

Norbert, and I am sure they will be happy to hear that you are very suppor tive of their initiatives. * (15: 30) Mr. Maguire: As I said, in asking some questions in regard to the organizational chart that the minister has, we will be looking at some other areas there as well, but you did indicate in your comments yesterday about some of the positions that are held by- you have outlined the deputies and their responsibilities in these areas, and you have outlined the names of some of the retirees, some of the new staff that you have hired.

I wonder, first of all, if I could ask you to provide me with an equivalent flowchart, organi zational chart of this from last year just for comparison purposes. You have indicated to me some of the departments, but if I could just get a flowchart on that or an org chart from last year, a comparative, it would be a help. Mr. Lathlin: Yes, we can make available a copy of the flowchart from the former-! guess I will have to say the two former departments, and then we will give the member a copy of the organizational chart outlining the amalgamated Department of Conservation. Mr.

Maguire: I guess some of the areas that I will be asking about are further detail in regard to some of the groups or departments within the organizational chart that is here. You have pointed out to me some of the new ones. I would just like to get some further detail in regard to staffing in those areas. You did indicate yesterday in your presentation that there are some positions being filled. In total over 15 0 staff are participating on these teams. I would like to, if I could, get an indication of who are the heads of some of the departments that you have.

You have a whole host of them here, and it would take some time to go through them, but I would like to, if you could, provide me with some detail on each of these in regard to staff, each of these committees or each of these sections of departments. I wonder if you could indicate to me who- I will start with, we were talking about it with the

11 38 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 2001 Assiniboine River Management Board, if perhaps you could provide me with a, or I do not know if you have this in a chart anywhere, but I would ask who the chairman or the assistant deputy is in regard to those areas. I guess these boards, they will not be assistant deputies, they will be chairmen, Mr. Chairman. But can the minister indicate to me who the chairman is on the Assiniboine River Management Board? Mr. Lathlin: I would like to start off by advising the member that under the box, where the minister's position is outlined, there are several boxes here.

Some of them are advisory groups. Some of them are boards. Even some of them are Crown corporations. For example, I will just give you a sampling. Under the minister, we have the Aboriginal Resource Council, the Venture Manitoba Tours Limited. We have the Ecological Reserve Advisory Committee. We have the Saskeram Management Area Advisory Committee. We have the En dangered Species Advisory Board, the Greater Winnipeg Dyking Board, the Arbitration Board of Forestry Branch, the Manitoba Water Com mission, the Assiniboine River Management Board, the member is referring to, and that is chaired by Mr.

Dickson, the Lower Red River Valley Water Commission, the Lake Dauphin Advisory Board, the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Corporation. That is just to give you an example of the types of commissions, boards, advisory groups that are under the box of the minister. These groups are, the majority of them are Order-in Council appointments, and they have their mandates. They have regular meetings with the minister and give advice to the minister as well. None of these people, I do not think, have any line relationship with other staff in the department. I should also, Mr.

Chairperson, advise the Member for Arthur-Virden that many of these boards have a long history in the department being advisory groups. When I came along I wanted to, as part of my orientation into the department, find out how long some of these boards had been in there. I found out that many of them have been there for a long time. Also, many of them have not been particularly active. You know, they would meet every so often, while others met on a regular basis and had regular contact with the minister. Then there are some who told me when we came on that the meetings with the minister were very, very irregular.

One to the things that I had to think about when I first came on was, you know, is this the best way to do it? I know there is always a need for good advice from people, grassroots people, but I, as part of our reorganization, wanted to make sure that we did not have groups here in an advisory role that had become irrelevant, obso lete, but we have most of them here. Mr. Maguire: Can the minister indicate to me perhaps which committees or boards might have been dropped? I know some of them have been reoriented in your term. Can you indicate to me if there are any that have been dropped? Mr.

Lathlin : Since I have been minister, the only group that has been dropped as a result of our reorganization is the Manitoba Environment Council. As I said earlier, half of the current Manitoba Round Table for Sustainable Develop ment is comprised of former members of the Manitoba Environment Council. The other half is comprised of members ofthe former Manitoba Round Table. Mr. Maguire: Yes, that committee, then, the Manitoba Round Table for Sustainable Development, is that the one still chaired by Mr. Dubois? Mr. Lathlin : I am sorry, Mr. Chairperson, I did not hear. * (15 :40) Mr.

Maguire: I am asking if that Manitoba Sustainable Development Round Table was still chaired by or is being chaired by, is that the one by Mr. Jack Dubois? Mr. Lathlin : The Manitoba Round Table is chaired by the minis ter. The vice-chair is Mr. Dubois. Mr. Maguire: Yes, you are quite correct. I am just wondering, of the councils and committees and boards that you have there, how many of

May 2, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 39 those positions are paid positions and what kinds of salaries are involved in them? Mr. Latblin: Mr. Chairperson, I can advise the member that most of those people who serve on those boards and commissions, advisory groups, are unpaid. We can, however, provide a list of any boards where people get honorariums. These people, when they come to Winnipeg, are paid for their expenses.

In the Manitoba Round Table, I know this because I was asking that question one day, most of the round table members, although there is an honorarium that they could get, most of them do not want it. They do not want to get paid, but we pay for their expenses. For example, if we meet outside of Winnipeg, we pay for their trans portation, meals and accommodation costs. The honorariums that are being paid and those who accept the honorarium payment, those rates are governed by a standard Government rate. Cer tain boards are paid so much a day, but the rate is not uniform. Some will get less. Some will get more.

I believe there are three categories that determine how much. For example, if you and I were sitting in the Manitoba Round Table, I think that would be the highest or maybe even the medium amount that we would get paid. There are other commissions and boards where they get paid more. I think some commissions and boards go as low as $50 to $70 a day. Then there are many commissions and boards where they do not get paid at all, except for travel costs. Mr. Maguire: I am going to move for the time being to the departments.

Under the deputy minister's part of the flowchart, you have the four deputy ministers outlined. You named them. Well, yesterday they were in attendance with us. I appreciate that. I wonder if we could look at ju st some questions, if I could get information in regard to the staffing of those departments at the present time. Maybe we could start with things like salaries, as well, but I would like to look at getting information from the minister. Mr.

Chairperson in the Chair If he could tell me the different structures of the departmental staffing, as well as some of the political staffing that he might have in each of those areas. Fi rst of all, I guess I would ask if the minister could provide me with the naines of his politica l staff in the department. Mr. Latblin: With the deputy and the assistant deputy ministers, of course, I think the member would be aware that there are no politica l staff in those divisions. In the minister's office, however, as the member will again be aware, people have been appointed through Order-in-Cou ncil.

Now, what do I have. I have one special assistant, and then I have one research assistant I believe the title is. Okay, so I have one special assistant and one constituency assistant in my pol itical office here in Winnipeg. Then, of course, in The Pas I have one constituency assistant there helping me out in the riding. Mr. Maguire: I wonder if the minister could just provide me with the names of those people at this time, if he has the names of his executive assistant and support staff on the political side, if he could indicate to me their names. Mr.

Latblin: The staff that I have here in Winnipeg are Glen Holmes and James Martin. Mr. Maguire: I wonder if the minister, while he is naming them, could just give me their titles as well. Mr. Latblin: I did that already. For example, I said Glen Holmes is the special assistant. James Martin is the constituency assistant. In The Pas, I have one other political staff member, but she is under the member's allowance category, so I do not know if you want that as well. That is all the political staff that I have right now. * (15 :50) Mr.

Maguire: Can the minister indicate to me what the salaries are of those special assistants? Mr. Latblin: The special assistant, Glen Holmes, is $50,000; the constituency assistant, James Martin, is $44,000. I am sorry, it is very important that I have this right. You see, I am new to this too. Glen

11 40 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 200 1 Holmes is the special assistant. James Martin is the executive assistant. The one that I have in The Pas is a constituency assistant, but that is member's allowance. Mr. Maguire: Thank you for clarifying that, Mr. Mini ster. That was what I was looking at, just to get the clarification of the titles, who they were and what their salaries are, just to get a bit of an organizational idea and picture of some of the department. That is what I am looking at in regard to the questions that I will have in the dif ferent areas here. I am going that route.

I guess I am looking for now under the assistant deputy areas and the deputy areas, I mean, I am assuming that we know who obviously the deputy and assistant deputies are who are here with us. I am looking for more detail in regard to some of the other departments that you have, the other groups that you have here under Regional Opera tions, under Con servation Programs, under Stewardship and Corporate Services and looking at if I could get some detail.

I will be asking questions on some of the players involved there, some of the people involved, if I could get some of the staffing from the minister in regard to who they are in the various areas. First of all, I guess the best way to proceed would be to ask the minister.

I know he indica ted in his remarks yesterday that there are some positions that have not been filled, some that are being filled right now, but I wonder if the minister could, first of all, in regard to the flowchart, indicate to me if there are any heads of those departments that are left open at this time under the assistant deputy minister level. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, I can advise the member that, for exa mple, under the Assistant Deputy Minis ter of Regional Opera tions we have seven regions.

Because of our integration, our amalgamation of the two former depart ments, when we developed this new organi zational chart to reflect the integration, the staff I guess essentially had to apply for the jobs under the new integrated system. In other words, if I were a regional director, I would have had to reapply for that position. Other people were given the opportunity to apply as well. That staffing action has been completed, but we are at the point now where I am not sure what it is, but we will be announcing those successful candidates I guess because of the staffing action requirements.

You know, I am not at liberty to say today because of the staffing. I do not know if there are regulations, but our plan was to announce them on Tuesday, the director for the Headquarters Operation, the Northeast Region, the Northwest Region, the Central Region, the Western Region, Eastern Region, and the Red River Region. There are going to be seven directors announced. Mr. Maguire: So I would ju st like to get it clear from the minister that next Tuesday your intention is to announce the new heads of each of those departments or each of those regional offices. Mr. Lathlin : Mr.

Chairperson, yes, that is in fact what I am saying. Next Tuesday I will be in a position to announce the new appointments. Mr. Maguire: So, if I understand the minister correctly, all of these positions have been tendered positions that are being filled. Mr. Lathlin: The competition for these positions was internal to the department. Mr. Maguire: The minister indi cated in his remarks yesterday-and it is just for my information. I am not familiar with the personnel as much as perhaps some of my colleagues that have been here longer. You mentioned that Mr.

Bill Podolsky and Merlin Shoesmith had retired or have left their areas. Can you indi cate to me which departments they were involved in and what their position was? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Shoesmith was the Assistant Deputy Minis ter of Programs and Services under the old org chart. He decided to retire. Bill Podolsky was the Executive Director of Admin istration under the old structure. That structure, because of integration, reorganization, that sec tion was eliminated. Mr. Podolsky decided to retire so we do not have that position any more under the new organization. Mr.

Maguire: If I could just get clarity on that, that Mr. Podolsky was the Executive Director of

May 2, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 41 Administration. Was it in regard to Natural Resources or Environment? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Podolsky's position was in Natural Resources under the former structure. * (1 6:00) Mr. Maguire: The counterpart then and Executive Director of Environment in the past, could you give me the name of who that person would have been? Mr. Lathlin: I think the member is asking who the other person was on the Environment side. Mr. Maguire: Yes. Mr. Lathlin: That was Wolf Boehm. Mr.

Maguire: I look at the flow chart and I was going to ask who the heads were of each of those regional areas but I guess we will be finding out on Tuesday. So the minister I guess cannot tell me at this point is this ju st a restructuring of the committee and many of these people will have to reapply for their jobs under the new department, that a number of the people who held these jobs in the past will be reapplying for them. I guess I am looking for information in regard to the numbers and staff that would be in each of those regional offices and that sort of thing as well.

We may get into that later in some of the inf ormation. Mr. Lathlin : I want to advise the member that the reason that I am not able to say today who those new regional directors are is because I understand the candidates themselves have not been told yet. So we are going to be offering them the job and then probably the next day we will be in a position to make an announcement. Under the old structure we had II regional directors. We now have 7 regions and therefore we had to select from the II who our regional directors would be. We are pretty well com pleted, I guess, that part of the staffing process. Mr.

Maguire: Can the minister ju st explain that a bit to me? If you had II regional directors, that would have been some in Natural Resources and some in Environment previous to that, could you give me the breakdown on that? How many were there? I am assuming that, from the supple mentary question as well, does that seven that you are talking about include the six listed here plus regional Headquarters Operati ons? Is that the seventh one? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I am advised that, under the old structure, Natural Resources had six and Environment had five. Mr. Maguire: Mr.

Chairman, can the minister confirm for me that the seven regional offices that they have now under the new offices of Regional Operations include the one that would be the Headquarters Opera tions? Mr. Lathlin: Yes. Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chairman, can the minister then indicate to me who the chairpersons of those Il departments are today? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I am sorry. I do not understand that question. Mr. Maguire: I know you are realigning, Mr. Chairman.

I am ju st asking the minister, through the realignment, I know you are moving to the seven regional offices and he has indicated that there are six from Natural Resources, I believe, and five from Environment. I was just wonder ing if the minister could name for me the persons who are presently heading each of those six in Natural Resources and five in Environment. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, right now, because we are integrated now, there is no Natural Resources, there is no Environment. That is gone.

In place of that, we have six regions, I guess, including the one in Head quarters in Winnipeg, and that makes it seven. The names of those people who were in the former Natural Resources Department are: In the old northeast region, in Thompson, under Natural Resources, was Don Cook. Under the old northwest region, Natural Resources, we had AI King. In that same old region, I will say former region, in Environment, we had a fellow by the name of Steve Davis. In Brandon, in the Park-west region, in Environment we had Bernie Crisp and in Natural Resources we had Bob Wooley. In southcentral region, in Environment,

11 42 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 200 1 we had Leslie MacCallum. In eastern Interlake Region, under Environment, Dennis Brown. In the eastern region, under Natural Resources, we had Bob Enns. In Environment, in the Winnipeg Region, we had Dave Ediger. In headquarters, central region, under the former Natural Re sources Department, we had two vacant regional directors positions. So that gives you all of the former regions, I guess, and the names of those people who occupied those positions. Mr. Maguire: Thank you, Mr.

Minis ter, so I assume then that those people are all presently employed as of today but are reapplying, some of them who wish to, for the positions that you are going to announce on Tuesday. Mr. Latblin: Out of those people, we will be announcing the successful candidates on Tuesday. The unsuccessful candidates are not going to be laid off. That has been our position right from day one. We are going to redeploy them to other important work in the Department of Conservation. At this time I only know of two people who have decided to retire, and those are Mr. Shoesmith and Mr. Podolsky.

An Honourable Member: They are all moving to Dauphin. Mr. Maguire: The Member for Dauphin says they are all moving to Dauphin. I would invite a few of them to come to the southwest. A little further southwest than you are. Mr. Minister, can you indicate to me, then, what kind of contracts these people would have? You have indicated that they were on a tendered basis. If I am correct there, can you indicate to me what types of contracts they would have? Mr. Lathlin: The member keeps using the word "tendered. " I do not believe that is the right term.

I believe the right term is you develop a statement of qualific ations, you describe the job, and then you post it, you advertise the position either internally or as an open, wide competition, and then people apply under the Civil Service Commission. So they are not really contracts. They are full-time civil service positions. They become civil servants or government workers. * (16 :10 ) Mr. Maguire: I guess my question is, then, I was ju st assuming, have these been tendered outside? I mean, they are open contracts, anyone could apply for them, or are they internally posted? Mr.

Latblin: No, these positions that we have just been talking about, the seven regional directors were all internal competitions. We did not go outside. Mr. Maguire: Can the minister indicate to me who makes that decision and why that decision was made? Mr. Latblin: When we started the integration work, the amalgamation of the two former departments, it was important that our employ ees were made to feel that because of integration there was a lot of uncertainty. People did not know if they would have jobs once integration had been completed, implemented and so on.

So we made a commitment that we would not lay anybody off as a result of integration. Rather, we would try to redeploy them into other positions within Conservation. So that is the main reason why we did not go outside. But I also have to advise the member that the Civil Service Commission is a very huge player in this area to make sure that we follow the rules and regulations. Any new positions are being advertised nationally, such as the Abori ginal Relations Branch director. That was a new position. That was advertised nationally. The regional director positions are not new.

They are a consolidation of existing positions. So there fore we have stayed inside for those positions. But any new positions we went national. Mr. Maguire: Thank you for that, Mr. Minister. It is just a realignment, as I understand it, of what you have got within the department in setting up these regional offices. Can you indicate to me if any of those will be moved from their present locations? I guess some of them have to be, with the combination of Environment and Natural Resources. Number I, are any of them vacant today?

It would not sound like they are, but I wonder if the minister could indicate to me if any of those positions are vacant at this time, Mr. Shoesmith's and Mr. Podolsky's. Mr. Latblin: I will start by saying that we are not going to be physically relocating or moving

May 2, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 43 offices from where they are now. They will stay there, wherever they are now. I believe the member was asking are you going to be moving people around because, obviously, as I indicated to him earlier, there were 11 positions from the two former departments before. We are appoint ing 7 to the new organization. The movement that is going to be happening will be lateral movements. For example, I will just use The Pas as example-if we move somebody to, say, Lac du Bonnet, where the office is, those movements would be lateral.

In other words, they would be moving to an equivalent position, I guess is a better way to put it, but we are not going to be relocating or closing down the offices, wherever they are located now. Any person who is being moved, of course, will be advised. Hopef ully, all of them will move laterally, but there may be cases where the person may not want to move. We could come to that, but right now our intention is to not put anybody out in the cold. We will move them to other positions in the department. Mr. Maguire: Before I follow that up, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to know is there any other reclassificati on in regard to what is expected of these indivi duals? Obviously, they will be taking on some combined responsibilities, from Environment to Natural Resources, in these regional areas. I am assuming then that from the statement the minister has made, if there is a Natural Resources person and an Environment person in the same community-! guess there would have to be at this time-that one of them will get that job if they both applied, or somebody else could, I guess. Well, no, this one you are saying is internal so one would therefore get the job.

Can you just indicate to me is the role and responsibility expected to be the same or what kind of reclassification has taken place? * (1 6:20) Mr. Lathlin: I can indicate to the member that there will be cases but very few cases where there will be some reclassification, but mostly all of the jobs will remain at the same level. At this time I am not sure which positions are going to be reclassified.

We have not gotten to that stage yet, but I can tell the member, yes, because we are amalgamating, we are integrating two former positions into one function, two functions into one function, in some cases there might be a need to reclassify. Mr. Chairperson, I would also like to add that the regional director classifi cation of the former Department of Natural Resources, that is the classification that will be retained. That will be our base. Mr. Maguire: That is a help, Mr. Minister.

So it will be the regional director level of salary expectations and that sort of thing then that will be there for the new positions of regional direc tors under the Regional Operati ons department? Mr. Lathlin: Yes, that is correct. Mr. Maguire: Can the minister ju st give me an outline of some of the responsibilities that they expect that those new regional director positions will entail then? Will they have to have the familia rity of both areas, I am assuming Natural Resources and Environment, that they will be responsible for in those areas? Mr.

Lathlin: The regional director position is a management position. Any manager, any director, any regional director usually has to perform management functions, and those are planning for the overall organization in that region, that regional organization, planning, directing, controlling. Those functions remain the same wherever you go. Whether you are in a band office, or whether you are in health or even in private industry, those functions remain the same.

But, in our case, because we are integrating and in order to follow the spirit of integration, that regional director in The Pas will be responsible for both Environment and Natural Resources. Mr. Maguire: Can the minister just indicate to me then if there are any changes and maybe just give me an indication of the communities that these offices will be located in, from each of the seven departments?

11 44 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 200 1 Mr. Lathlin : The Headquarters Operations, of course, is located in Winnipeg at Saulteaux. The Northeast Region is Thompson. The Northwest Region is The Pas. The Central Region is Gimli. The Western Region is Brandon, and the Eastern Region is Lac du Bonnet. We will have a new region, and that will be called the Red River Region. Mr. Maguire: I wonder if the minister could ju st give me an indi cation which part of the river that one is going to be located on. Mr. Lathlin: Right in the middle, no, I am just kidding.

The Red River Region, for the time being, is located in Winnipeg. There is a sub mission to the Treasury Board. Once we get Treasury Board approval, then we will be able to make a decision as to where the Red River Region will be located. That particular region being located in Winnipeg has offices, not just in Winnipeg but, for example, in Winkler, Selk irk, Portage Ia Prairie. So those are some of the of fices that will be attached to the Red River Region. Mr.

Maguire: So it is the minister's intent, if I could try to paraphrase, that there is presently offices in those communities, or they will stay there as well, or will a central office always be in Winnipeg for that Red River area, or will you be looking at some place like Morris or otherwise to put an office there in the heart of that region? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, whatever offices are there now, they will remain there. Once we get Treasury Board approval, we will then be in a position to assign the regional office to a com munity, and that is what has not been decided yet.

Once we have that approval, then we will be in a position to assign the regional office. I want to also indi cate to the member that this new region will cover the area from just south of Se lkirk, will include Portage Ia Prairie, Carman, Manitou, Winkler and Steinbach, and on the eastern side of the region, the border will start ju st south of Beausejour all the way down to the U.S. border just west of Sprague. This new region will represent the Red River Water shed. * (1 6: 30) Mr.

Maguire: Having said that then, the other regional offices that are there are purely regional offices, there are other offices within those areas as well, or are they just more specifically located to those cities and towns and the work is done out of them? Mr. Lathlin : Mr. Chairperson, yes, let us see, the regional of fices located in a community, let us take Western Region, for example, Western Region covers the area of the Saskatchewan Manitoba border all the way down to the American border.

It comes up north just west of Manitou, west of Portage, it takes in Neepawa, McCreary and along Lake Manitoba, Winnipeg osis, Mafeking, Swan River, Roblin, Russell, Virden, Melita, Souris and Brandon. Now in some cases the regional office also serves as the district office, but in most cases there is a regional office and we have district offices as well. Just as further information to the member, I understand we have 60 offices outside of Winnipeg. Mr. Maguire: In the realignment I guess then my question to the minister is: Will there be any regional offices that are presently there being closed? Mr.

Lathlin: No. Mr. Maguire: Or being relocated? Mr. Lathlin: No. Mr. Maguire: Will there be much realignment, if any, of the district offices at this time? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, the answer is no. Mr. Maguire: I would like to know, if I could, has there been any amalgamation of personnel obviously there must have been some in some of the regional offices-but also much shift of personnel in the district offices as we have moved towards the amalgamation of these seven regional offices? Mr. Lathlin: Mr.

Chairperson, you know, when I was explaining the situation in The Pas, for example, that is the regional office for the Northwest Region. I believe The Pas also serves

May 2, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 45 as a district. In the same office, we have the district office for the Northwest Region. The regional director, who will be appointed there, will be in charge of everything. There will be no environment office or resources office. The regional director will be in charge for both areas. One of the things that I tried to do as a result of integration is that I wanted to make sure that the regional offices and the district offices had enough field people.

I gave the direction that if there is going to be any movement of people, I would rather have the people go to the regional offices and district offices because that is where the front- line workers, in my opinion anyway, should be. I do not feel that we should have an oversupply of workers in headquarters. I think where we are going to need people is out in the districts and in the regions. So we have tried to do that as much as possible. Mr.

Maguire: Well, I guess I would just like to know then, as well, from the minister, it is a bit up in the air I know, because there is some realignment going on here that will be an nounced very soon, as he has indicated. Can you give me an idea of the number of personnel in each of the offices? Are each of them the same? How are you going to establish that?

Will the personnel, other than the directors who are presently involved in each of these regions, after the announcements have been made, you are looking as some of the unsuccessful candidates for these seven regions then working in the district offices, or you have indicated that they will move laterally? What kind of role would you see them playing, and would it be in the district offices? I assume that would be a differ ent position that may not be seen as a lateral move.

First of all, could the minister explain what types of positions will be there for those unsuccessful candidates, and will those be new positions or are they ones that are presently avai lable? Mr. Lathlin: I believe the member started out by asking me a number of positions in the regions. Maybe I will answer that first. At Headquarters Opera tions, we have 60.5; in the Northwest Region we have 48; in the Northeast Region we have 48; in the Central Region we have 79; in the Eastern Region we have 73 ; in the Western Region we have 10 7; in the Red River Region there are 66; and in the Fi re Program there are 58.

That is in Regional Operations only. Now, as far as redeploying people as a result of integration, I think or at least I thought I made it clear earlier when I said it has always been our intention right from day one, when we started to work on integration, not to lay people off, rather to try to find them other employment within the department. For example, those unsuccessful regional director candidates will be assigned to other senior positions because of their experi ences.

There is no point in assigning a regional director with all that experience and training to do something else that would not be self fulfilli ng. What those other responsibili ties will be right now, I cannot say, because we still have to discuss this with the people who are going to be involved. These are not new SYs, although they may be new functions. * (1 6:4 0) Mr. Maguire: I guess I am just assuming then that they will be still in the Department of Conservation in their roles. Mr. Lathlin: The answer is yes. Mr. Maguire: I am going to defer to my honourable colleague from Ste.

Rose, who has some questions in this area as well. Barring him getting all the answers in the next short while, I understand that we are going back in the House at five to private members' resolutions. I will maybe continue with some of these questions tomorrow or whenever we meet again, if that is okay with the minister. I would defer to my col league from Ste. Rose. Mr. Glen Cummi ngs (Ste. Rose): If I am being repetitive I am sure the minister will point it out. I meant to be here earlier. How many vacancies is the department carrying right now on perman ent positions? Mr.

Lathlin: Currently there are 60 vacancies, but 15 of those 60 vacancies are in recruitment status, I guess. Mr. Cummings: The 15 that you singled out, are those NROs?

11 46 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 200 1 Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, 3 out of those IS are NROs. Mr. Cummings: Will that 3 bring the NRO staffing to a full complement? Mr. Lathlin : If we fill those 3 NRO positions, we would still have 6 vacancies. Mr. Cummings: Is it the intention of the department to recruit for those vaca ncies immediately? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, it is our intent to of course fill those 6 vacancies, but we have to go to Treasury Board to get approval. Mr. Cummings: Did the department receive the funding in its global budget to fill all 60 vacancies? Mr.

Lathlin : We are budgeted for 98 percent of the salaries, I understand. I remember this from Treasury Board, as well. This is a normal turnover allowance that is given to departments so we are funded for 98 percent. Mr. Cummings: Yes, I can appreciate that there may well be a mandated vacancy. I just wanted to be sure. In light of the total number of NROs, as an example, that the department employs, I guess I would be interested in what that number is. If there is stiii going to be 6 vacant positions, that could stiii be a vacancy rate of about 5 percent of NROs. Mr. Lathlin: Mr.

Chairperson, there are a total of 14 0 NRO positions. Mr. Cummings: Well, I would encourage the minister to fill those vacancies. Can he confirm that he has had a number of resignations or retirements from people who are working in the lower levels of that side of the department who were hoping to be in a position to be trai ned to be NROs? Did the vacancy rise in some of the lower qualifications of that section? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I apologize to the member, but I did not quite get his question. Perhaps I could ask him to give it to me once more or rephrase it. Mr.

Cummings: Well, I am not trying to make it circuitous. What I am really interested in is whether or not the pool of qualified members that they have in the department who might well be eligible to be promoted to NRI, if that pool is shrinking. Mr. Lathlin: If I understand the member's question, the answer is that our pool of lower level trainees, seasonal workers, I guess, has always been around 80, and I understand now is down to about 40.

I should also mention to the member while I have this opportunity one of the first questions I asked when I was given the orientation into the department-we were talking about human resources-was to try to ascertain whether there was a succession plan, because in just about every orientation that I was given the dif ferent departments or divisions coming in practically all of them told me that we have an aging population in Conservation, and in a very short time there is going to be a whole bunch of employees retiring.

So I asked the question to see whether we had a succession plan in place. * (16: 50) There was some sort of a succession plan in place, I guess, but when I looked at the ages of the workers and you look at the seasonal number of workers that you had I was not convinced that was the best succession plan that we could have. So now we are working towards developing a succession plan I hope wiii address the human resource needs of the department down the road, rather than scrambling whenever there is a retirement.

As a matter of fact, one of the things that I also noticed was people who had retired for quite some time, we were asking them to come back because we were very short of people, and oftentimes the advice I got was, yeah, but that is the only person who knows how to do that job. It is very important that we get him back. I ju st thought that was not a very good way to operate. When I retire I do not want somebody to call me and say please come and work because we do not have anybody else qualified. So now, hopefully, in a very short while we will have a succession plan in place, so that we

May 2, 200 1 LEGISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 47 do not run into those kinds of problems. They can be very disruptive. Mr. Cumm ings: Still focussing on the enforcement side, switching gears a little bit to what used to be the Environment, in terms of environmental officers on the ground, how many environment enforcement officers does the department have? Mr. Lathlin: Roughly 60. Mr. Cummings: Are those all categorized as environment officers, or are they people who can enforce The Environment Act but in fact have other

definitions in the department? Mr. Lathlin: I understand that those 60 people are in fact environmental officers. Mr. Cummings: Are there any vacancies in that category? Mr. Lathlin: Out of those 60 environmental officer positions, we have 3 vacant positions, and we are recruiting for them currently. Mr. Cummings: I do not think I can let the minister's comment about hiring back some grey-haired employees go entirely unnoticed. Actually, there are still a few of them here. But I agree that both departments need a good succession policy, and I have no quarrel with that.

I was, however, interested to know if there was an ongoing recruitment program for the NROs and for the four environment officers. Public health inspections, of course, there is a limited number, as I recall, of people who actu ally are public health officers. Are there vacan cies in that area? Mr. Lathlin: I can indi cate to the member that, yes, there is an ongoing recruitment program in place. We are trying to be more aggressive in our recruitment; that is, going to places like Keewatin Community College, the universities to seek candidates for our vacancies. We also, since I have been in the department, Mr.

Chairperson, developed an Aboriginal employment strategy for the Department of Conservation. We have Cabinet approval and we have hired an Aboriginal employment consultant who is doing the same thing, actively recruiting Aboriginal people to Conservation, particularly in those areas where there are a high number of Aboriginal people, trying to recruit them into front- line work. Mr. Cha irperson: Order, please. The hour being 5 p.m., committee rise. INDUSTRY, TRADE AND MINES * (15: 00) Mr. Chairperson (Conrad Santos): Committee of Supply, come to order please. This

section of the Committee of Supply has been dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Industry, Trade and Mines. Would the minister's staff please enter the Chamber now. We are on page 10 0 of the Estimates book, Resolution 10 .1 (

d) Policy, Planning and Co ordination ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $457,200. Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): I will just get my page here; 10 0, you said. Mr. Cha irperson: 10 0. Mr. Tweed: Mr. Chairman, I am wondering if I might ask the minister if her department had any involvement in the purchase of the Pan Am Clinic. Hon. MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minist er of Indust ry, Trade and Mines): No. Mr. Tweed: So then there will be actually no active involvement by staff or personnel and also no financial assistance or services provided? Ms.

Mihychuk: We have no relationship with that project at all through the department. Mr. Tweed: I thank the minister for that. We will pass a few lines. Mr. Cha irperson: Item 1 0. 1. Administration and Finance (

d) Policy, Planning and Co ordination

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $457 ,200-pas s;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 65,6 00-pa ss.

11 48 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 2001 1. (

e) Manitoba Of fice in Ottawa (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $11 9,400-- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $11 6,400--pas s. l. (

f) Manitoba Bureau of Statistics (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $758,800. Shall this item pass? Mr. Tweed: Just in regard to the Bureau of Statistics. I think last year we talked that there were some vacancies, and I know the minister gave me a list yesterday. I notice she did not mention it. Am I assuming that all positions are full? Ms. Mihychuk: That is correct. There are no vacancies in this section.

In fact, we have increased staff years by two positions by the conversion of service contracts into permanent positions, and the net cost of these positions is zero as the required salary funds of $78,000 were transferred from operational expenditures. The demographic analysis position will enable the enhancement of Manitoba Bureau of Statis tics demographic program including the review, comments and suggestions for more effective ways of measuring Manitoba's population that will flow from the 200lcensus figures.

I just want to also, for the record, indicate the importance of having Manitobans complete the census. Not only does it provide vital information that allows government of no matter what background or political affiliation to make sound decisions that are best for Manitobans, and No. 2 that for every Manitoban not counted, we will lose $32,000 in revenue. I believe that Manitobans and I am sure the member across the way would agree, we deserve all the federal dollars that we can get here in Manitoba.

So I encourage all Manitobans to be sure that they fill out their forms and ensure that anyone who may not be aware of the importance to pass on the message. Mr. Tweed: I thank the minister for that paid political advertisement for Statistics Bureau of Manitoba. I am sure we will get a chance to discuss that in greater detail in the House at some point. So I am seeing an increase in Salaries and Employee Benefits. That is the conversion of two new positions into full-time positions that were previously under contract. Is that correct? Ms. Mihychuk: Yes, that is correct. Mr.

Tweed: So, then, the $60,000 is Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations. You are saying that the two contracts that were previous were of a value of $30,000 each. Ms. Mihychuk: The salaries for the two positions are actually covered under Other Expenditures, Appropriation I 0.1 (f)(2), and you could see there was a reduction from $1 69,000 down to $85,000. The $60,000 is monies that we recover from other departments for services provided. Mr. Tweed: The $60,000 came out of the Other Expenditures? Ms.

Mihychuk: The salaries for those two positions came out of Other Expenditures Sup plies and Services, where you see the decrease in the expenditure from $1 69,000 to $85,000. Mr. Tweed: Could I ask the minister then, if not today at some date, to provide me a list of all people that are employed by the department under the classif ication of Other Expenditures? Ms. Mihychuk: There are no other positions that would be under that category so just for the record. there are no other circumstances like the one that we have just discussed.

I do have the copies of the job postings for Geological Services, and I will pass them over to the member. Mr. Tweed: I thank the minister for the job postings. So, then, throughout the rest of the review of Industry, Trade and Mines, there are no other areas where th

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-2-23
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 2nd hansardpdf 23.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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