Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 18 (37th Legislature, 3rd Session)

37-3-18

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

� � Third Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LII No. 18 - 1:30 p.m., Thesday, April 23, 2002 (Revised)

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HA WRANIK, Gerald HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEV AKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTO$, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosano, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Lac du Bonnet Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Ross mere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

659 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, Apri123, 2002 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Mr. Speaker: I am pleased to table the Annual Report of the Office of the Children's Advocate for the period April 1, 2000 to March 31, 2001. Hon.

MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines): I am pleased to table the following 2000-2001 annual reports, copies of which have already been released in accordance with the intersessional procedures: The Co-operative Loans and Loans Guarantee Board; the Cooperative Promotion Board; the Economic Innovation and Technology Council; the Industrial Technology Special Centre, Special Operating Agency; and the Annual Report for Manitoba Industry, Trade and Mines. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from Immanuel Christian School 11 Grades 9 and 11 students under the direction of Mr. Jeff Dykstra. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli). Also in the public gallery we have from Archwood School 20 Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. Connie Stanley. This school is in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Budget Manitoba Hydro Profits Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Yesterday, for the first time, Manitobans learned that the Doer government plans to raid Manitoba Hydro to the tune of some $288 million. Mr. Speaker, $150 million of that was used to balance last year's books. How can the Premier, how can he honestly stand in his place, how can he stand and tell Manitobans honestly that the books last year were balanced? Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): I find it passing strange that members opposite would be feigning indignation in this House after you consider that, first of all, this Chamber witnessed a major breach of a democratic mandate when they reversed the position in 1995-96 and sold the Manitoba Telephone System. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. * (13:35) Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. They sold the Manitoba Telephone System and put the one-time breach of trust with Manitobans directly into the rainy day fund, to show it in the rainy day fund.

The total between the debt payment and the amount of money that went into the rainy day fund, the debt payment for health capital, I believe, was $415 million. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, we have seen what this Government has a history of doing. We have seen it before. First, with MPI, they see $30 million. They go in and they raid it. Take it away, we are going to spend it. Now we see that Manitoba Hydro has some profits, so we better grab those, not to look ahead but to balance the books from last year. That is unconscionable.

660 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2002 My question to the Premier is: Has he learned anything from MPI, and did he consult with Manitobans before he thought of raiding another Crown corporation? Mr. Doer: The term "first" should be used for members opposite with the sale, the unconscion able sale of the Manitoba Telephone System. That money was transferred into the former government's budgets to balance their budgets. Since that time, the Manitoba Telephone System has increased the rates since the Crown corporation- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the rates from the Manitoba Telephone System have gone up over 66 percent since it was privatized by members opposite. The members on the board of directors that were receiving these major benefits from stock options and the brokers in this province were the main benefactors. When we built Limestone back in the 1980s, we said that the revenues would mean a lot to the future of Manitoba Hydro and to the future of Manitoba. Members opposite said that we would only get 3 cents a kilowatt-hour. It is now at 4.3 cents a kilowatt-hour.

It makes good sense to invest in a long-term vision which we did with Limestone. This was the mothball party of Manitoba. This is the sell-off party of Manitoba, and we are here for all Manitobans. Mr. Murray: My question goes to the spend party of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. Hardworking Manitoba families have to live within their means. They understand that. That is something that is very fundamental to hard work ing Manitobans. There are no special privileges. Unfortunately, that is something that the Doer government does not understand.

I ask the Premier again today: How can he honestly look at Manitobans and say that, yes, we took $155 million to balance the books last year, how can he honestly tell Manitobans that is a balanced budget? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, members opposite took $100 million, $185 million and $185 million out of the rainy day fund. We have yet to take- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, that is for a debt repayment of 75, 75 and 75. We have had two debt repayments of $96 million, another $96 million in debt repayment.

We, for the first time in 41 years, have- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. * (13:40) Point of Order Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, I am sure the Premier would like the facts to be correct on Hansard. The debt repayment was 75, 150 and 75, not 75, 75 and 75. He should acknowledge that. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, we expected the member was getting up to apologize once again. The Opposition begins a session with an apology.

That talks to how pathetic they are coming back into the House. That is no point of order, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Fort Whyte, he does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister had the floor answering a question.

April 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 661 Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I am glad members opposite have confirmed that it was $470 million out of the Fiscal Stabilization Fund in the last three fiscal years. Hardworking Manitobans, the tax increases in the city of Winnipeg for school ratepayers was 60 percent. Since we have been elected, it is down 14.4 percent. In Fort Garry, it was 49 percent. It is down 2.2 percent under our Government. In St. James-Assiniboia, the taxes went up 48 percent; school taxes, the education portion, 9.9% decrease.

In the Agassiz School Division, the taxes went up 112 percent in the 1990s. They are down-oh, they are up 7 percent in the year 2000. I want to be accurate. If they think their 112 percent is worth defending, let them go ahead and do it. In the Beautiful Plains School Division, tax increases up 64 percent in the 1990s; down 4.4 percent. That is our record, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question? Mr. Murray: A new question, Mr. Speaker. Did the Premier say that Hydro debt was up $300 million? That is under his watch.

By raiding this Crown corporation, they are stealing our children's future. My question for the Premier- Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Premier is: Why is he forcing Manitoba Hydro ratepayers to pay for his spending habits? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Public Accounts will show that our first three years in office, our first three budgets, the spending increases are lower than the last three years under the previous government. Those are facts.

I would have thought today the Leader of the Opposition would have stood up and dealt with all those predictions he had made sitting on that little scooter of his waving around little props. Income taxes are going to go up. Wrong. Green taxes are going to go up. Wrong. Gas taxes are going to go up. Wrong. Sales tax are going to go up. Wrong. You would think the member opposite would stand up and apologize for this pathetic photo op that he had last week. Mr. Murray: Mr.

Speaker, it is very clear that since the Premier has been in government they have seen a billion dollars of new revenue come in and they have spent every penny of it, every last single cent. * (13:45) Every time a dime would come in, the Premier would spend it. Unfortunately, when the dimes stopped coming in, he kept spending. Why is the Premier forcing Manitoba Hydro ratepayers to support his spending addiction? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the numbers on spending are quite favourable relative to the other members. They keep using the false numbers that they use in their hyperbole.

Any opportunity to look at the Public Accounts will show the last three years the revenue increase was approximately at about a 3% rate increase, and their spending was quite a bit higher because they drew more from the rainy day fund. Today Nesbitt Burns said: In a challenging economic environment, the Minister of Finance presented a prudent and responsible plan in today's Budget Address. Manitoba did not backtrack on its commitment to control spend ing, pay down the debt and continue to trim the taxes. Again, the priority areas of health, education of families and communities will be benefiting.

The Government deserves credit for tackling their pension liability which will be fully funded in just under 30 years. Mr. Speaker, for the first time in 40 years, we have tackled the long-term liability. This liability was $1.2 billion in 1990. It was $2.7 billion in the year 2000. For the first time in 40 years, when we hire a jail guard, the pension liability will be paid for by the employer, this Government. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, raiding Manitoba Hydro the way that this Government has done is unprecedented. Manitobans will not stand to have this Premier use Manitoba as his personal slush fund.

It is unprecedented. It is outrageous.

662 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2002 I ask the question to the Premier: Why then, Mr. Premier, have you decided to make Manitoba Hydro your personal slush fund? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, again we did not get an apology from the Leader of the Opposition. Closing rural hospitals, no; putting a user fee on home care, wrong. I have never met a person in my life that has been so inaccurate in the predictions before a budget. The Manitoba Hydro corporation is an asset for all of Manitoba.

The revenue that was generated from the Limestone dam, which was predicted in the 1980s by a previous government would generate revenues for future Manitoba generations to have the ability to have a heritage that would be very positive, members opposite voted against Limestone. They called it lemon stone. They said it would never make more than 3 cents a kilowatt-hour by the year 2000.

Just like they are wrong in their budget predictions, they are wrong today; 4.3 cents a kilowatt-hour, $400 million a year in export revenues, built by previous NDP governments for the benefit of all the people. * (13:50) This Budget is for all the people of Manitoba, for health care for all the people of Manitoba, for education for all the people of Manitoba, for children of all Manitobans, for tax cuts for all Manitobans, not like the telephone system that was sold only for the privileged Tory few. Budget Manitoba Hydro Profits Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): Mr.

Speaker, when we got the six-month report, the financial report, from the Province of Manitoba, we were told that an increased transfer will be required from the Fiscal Stabilization Fund, estimated at $140 million. Less than two weeks ago, on CBC, we were told that the Fiscal Stabilization Fund may be raided to the tune of $200 million. My question is: Why did you not choose to come clean with Manitobans as to your true intention when you as recently as two weeks ago were talking about the Fiscal Stabilization Fund when you had already raided Manitoba Hydro? Point of Order Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, just two points. I wonder if you could remind the Opposition when they have a question it should be addressed to the Speaker, and, as well, it would be worthwhile for the Opposition to indicate what minister they are asking a question of. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposi tion House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne is quite clear. The question is put to Government, not any individual minister. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, I would like to remind all honourable members that questions and answers are put to the Speaker, through the Speaker, and also that questions are put to the Government and it is up to the Government who they choose to answer the question. *** Mr. Speaker: The question has been put. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): thank the member opposite for the question. would like to congratulate him on his new responsibilities as the official Finance critic.

The decisions and the information presented in the quarterly reports were the best information available at the time. The decisions we made in the Budget are reported in the Budget, and that is what we stand on today. Mr. Jim Penner: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Finance: In that case, how is it possible to raid a fund like the reserves in Hydro retroactively? Mr. Selinger: The books are not closed on the '0 1-02 fiscal year in the province of Manitoba. All decisions were made within that fiscal year. Mr. Jim Penner: Mr. Speaker, I would still like to have an answer from the Minister of Finance

April 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 663 as to how we can go back and take last year's profit to balance the books after we find out that we do not have a balanced budget. Mr. Selinger: As I indicated, Mr. Speaker, we made a decision, based on the extraordinarily strong export profits of Manitoba Hydro, to take a transfer from it to balance the books for the '0 1-02 year to preserve the Fiscal Stabilization Fund, and all of that has been duly reported to the Legislature. Budget Manitoba Hydro Profits Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr.

Speaker, the third-quarter financial statements for Manitoba Hydro, December 31, 2001, and the preliminary third-quarter financial results that were distributed by the Minister of Finance for the Province of Manitoba towards the end of March, neither of those indicated that the Minister of Finance was going to demand that Manitoba Hydro contribute $150 million to the general revenue of the Province of Manitoba. * (13:55) I would like to ask the Minister of Finance when he informed the board of Manitoba Hydro that the Doer government was going to require Manitoba Hydro to contribute $288 million, $150 million of it retroactively, to the Province of Manitoba's general revenue.

Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Manitoba Hydro is treated like every other citizen of Manitoba. They get the information when the Budget is released in the Legislature. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Finance for further clarification because, given that the financial statements published December 31 by Manitoba Hydro indicate that they only have $14 million in cash, did he not feel it was his responsibility to consult them prior to demanding they pay $150 million retroactively which they do not have? Mr.

Selinger: The forecast profit for Manitoba Hydro for the '01-02 year was $99 million. The revised forecast is for a profit of $209 million. We have decided that a transfer in the order of $150 million is reasonable and appropriate and will allow Manitoba Hydro to once again have a strong profit and an increase in the retained earnings. Mr. Loewen: The matter before this House is where is Manitoba Hydro going to get $150 million in cash to transfer to the Province of Manitoba given that at December 31 their cash balance was $14 million.

How much more is Manitoba Hydro going to have to borrow, not only to pay $150 million retroactively, but the $288 million altogether? How much is Manitoba Hydro going to have to borrow? Mr. Selinger: As I have just reported to the Legislature, the projected net income for Manitoba Hydro for the year '01-02 is $209 million from which the transfer payment will be deducted. Of course, this was based on the strong export sales into the United States market because previous governments had the foresight to build the Limestone project specifically for export purposes. Minister of Finance Conflict of Interest Mr.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr .. Speaker, when the Minister of Finance, desperate for revenues because of overspending, came calling at Manitoba Hydro, who was the minister responsible for protecting the ratepayers of Manitoba Hydro? Do you not have a conflict of interest in this? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): fully expected somebody to raise the question of conflict of interest, and I would advise them to be very careful in the language they use. There is no pecuniary benefit to any member of this Government or any member on the other side.

All decisions were made in the best interests of Manitobans, all Manitobans. Manitoba Hydro Public Utilities Board Review Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, this issue calls out very loudly for some third party to review this move by the

664 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2002 Government. Will the minister take this to the Public Utilities Board for review? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Manitoba Hydro currently is going through a review at the Public Utilities Board, but where the review is going to occur is in this Legislature and in front of the people of Manitoba whom we are elected to serve. Mr. Gilleshammer: The rates for Manitoba Hydro have not been reviewed by the Public Utilities Board since the mid-1990s.

Will the minister not do the honourable thing as an honourable minister and have this reviewed by the Public Utilities Board? Mr. Selinger: As I indicated, Manitoba Hydro currently is going through a review at the Public Utilities Board. Unfortunately, the former gov ernment did not take any information to the Public Utilities Board during their term of office. We plan to improve the frequency and the accountability of Manitoba Hydro to the Public Utilities Board, and we are willing to debate in this Legislature the decisions we have made to make this Budget work for all of Manitoba.

Budget Health Expenditures Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): In the Budget last year, the Minister of Health estimated Health expenditures for the year just completed of $2.587 billion. In the Budget presented yesterday, we learned that the estimated Health expenditures for last year will be $2.686 billion, or $99 million more than were budgeted. My question to the Minister of Health: How is it that the minister missed his target by almost $100 million? * (14:00) Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for River Heights for that question.

As I recall in this Legislature, the Member for River Heights stood up and asked me to pay the doctors of Manitoba more. The member asked us to pay the nurses more. The member asked for more coverage on Pharmacare. The member asked for more community-based services. All of those are in the Budget and are cost drivers in the Budget. Mr.

Gerrard: My supplemental to the Minister of Health who has missed his targets for two years in a row and rather badly, I ask the Minister of Health: When is he going to learn to hit the target better and what areas of health care budgeting, what parts of the Budget, were responsible primarily for running over budget so much? Mr. Chomiak: One of the major cost drivers for the past several years in health care has been the Pharmacare budget that has been rising at double digits.

I remind the member opposite that he campaigned twice as a federal Liberal cabinet minister on a promise of a national pharmacare program that I have asked for year after year, and we are still waiting. I say today if the federal government were to give us 50-50 on Pharma care, then we would be able to expand the program and deal with the increases that have occurred. Mr. Gerrard: My supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I ask the Minister of Health, given the lack of credibility in his Budget Estimates of the last two years, what will the minister do in the present year to make sure he is closer to the Budget targets that he has presented? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): The members opposite know the major issue of overexpenditure in the last couple of years was doctors' billings. It went up over $200 million. On the fiscal side the second-largest over expenditure was in the area of pharma ceuticals. The member has already indicated that.

The issue of regional health authorities has gone down from about $75 million three years ago to about $25 million, $22 million now. Some of the health authorities now, for the first time ever including the city of Winnipeg, are balanced for the first time in literally decades, and I want to pay credit to the Minister of Health. I am absolutely shocked that the member opposite is doing with health care what he did

April 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 665 with the new downtown entertainment centre, saying one thing one day and another thing the next day. He talked about more money for doctors, more money for drugs, more money for nurses, and today in his comments in one of the newspaper articles he argues that we should not have any increases in spending for the health care system. This sounds like the echoes of the Liberals in British Columbia. Budget Mosquito Control Program Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): My question is for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

In yesterday's Budget, a commitment was made to work with the City of Winnipeg and adjacent municipalities on a mosquito abatement program. Can the minister explain to the House what this program will entail and what benefits it will bring for those living in Winnipeg and adjacent municipalities? Hon. Jean Friesen (Minister of Inter governmental Affairs): I would like to thank the Member for St. James for her question.

I am delighted to be able to tell the House that the Province has been able, as part of its support for the City of Winnipeg, to commit $880,000 to support a comprehensive mosquito control program. This will take place in two phases. The first phase will be a mapping phase which will cost about $100,000 to identify the breeding grounds of the nuisance mosquitoes. The second phase will then move on to larviciding. This is an area, I think, where there is general support, a sustainable and preventative option for Winni peg and its region.

I want to pay tribute in announcing this to the municipalities and the City of Winnipeg for the way in which they have worked together on this issue over the past number of months. I think that co-operation speaks very well for the kind of co-operation we are hoping and antici pating as we move forward in our planning for the capital region. Thomas Sophonow Wrongful Conviction Compensation Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, Thomas Sophonow was awarded $2.6 million to compensate him for enduring three trials and four years in jail for a crime he did not commit.

Is the Doer government prepared now to pay Mr. Sophonow its 40% share of the $2.6 million? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am certainly pleased to confirm that the Manitoba government is committed to paying Thomas Sophonow the amount that Commissioner Cory had recom mended as the province's apportionment. Mani toba has already made a payment of $100,000 to Mr. Sophonow at the time of the release of the recommendations, had already paid $75,000 in addition to that at the time the inquiry was held.

We, of course, have paid for the full costs, over $4 million I believe, of the inquiry itself. I can advise, Mr. Speaker, that currently representatives of the Province and the City are in discussions with a view to how to deal and get an expeditious payment of these amounts that need to be paid. We need to be, of course, sure that Manitobans are not asked to pay for a cost which is the responsibility or for which insurance coverage is available. Mrs. Smith: Can the minister now assure Mr. Sophonow that the Doer government will pay now, Mr.

Speaker, and negotiate with the City of Winnipeg later so he can expect a cheque in the mail? Mr. Mackintosh: We certainly want to see and we are committed to an expeditious payment of the amounts. That is why we are in discussions with the City. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, I believe there are discussions taking place today. Mr. Thomas Sophonow is owed this amount, and we are committed to ensuring that according to the recommendations of Mr. Justice Cory the payment is made as soon as reasonably possible. Mrs. Smith: When will Mr. Sophonow receive the cheque in the mail, Mr. Speaker? Mr.

Mackintosh: The members opposite should well know it is important to ensure, if there is insurance coverage, that the payment be made according to that. They should also know that if payment is made up front it is our advice that then there will likely be no recovery from the

666 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2002 insurance companies, who we believe have some liability here. So we are proceeding as quickly as we can. We are committed to making sure that Mr. Thomas Sophonow is paid as according to Mr. Cory's recommendations. Budget Harness Racing Industry Mr. Mervin Tweed (furtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, yesterday we saw a government present a Budget to Manitobans with absolutely no vision. Today we find out that not only have they no vision but this Government has killed an entire industry, an industry that employs over 500 people directly and indirectly.

My question for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines: On behalf of the harness racing commission people who are here today in this House, why did you kill this industry? Hon. MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines): Well, it is a very curious day when the Opposition across the House is asking for us to spend more. I do not know if they are aware that it was a very difficult year and a very difficult budget. Many departments and programs were reviewed very carefully.

We have made a decision instead of continued expenditures, as they are requesting, that we had to take a review, and this was one unfortunate reduction that we had to make in the Budget. Mr. Tweed: A new question, Mr. Speaker. The bottom line is that this minister, in her decision making, has killed an entire industry in the province of Manitoba. I would like her to go out and speak to the people in Holland, Glenboro, Carman, Deloraine, Portage la Prairie, Killarney, Miami, Wawanesa, Minnedosa and to all rural Manitobans and explain to them why she killed the harness racing industry in the province of Manitoba.

Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Speaker, as the member across the way would know, harness racing has seen a decrease in participation that has been fairly dramatic, both in attendance and in participation, in fact since 1997 a 50% reduction in support from local Manitobans for this sport. Mr. Speaker, after analyzing the conditions of the Budget and the support by Manitobans, a decision was made. * (14:10) Mr. Tweed: On a new question, Mr. Speaker, and I will go right to the Premier (Mr. Doer) on this.

Perhaps if we were to unionize the Manitoba harness racing commission, would the Premier step in and save this dying industry that this Government has killed? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Speaker, as the members opposite may remember, although it is very difficult for them to reflect on the past, in 1996 the members opposite reviewed the industry. This was after there was an attempt to bring the harness racing industry into Assiniboia Downs. Unfortunately, that did not work. In fact, the members opposite looked at a three-year bridge.

In 1999, funding for harness racing was to cease. This Government has worked with those individuals to try and find any further options. Unfortunately, participation in harness racing has seen a dramatic decrease since 1997 by over 50 percent. Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, Mani tobans are choosing other venues. We choose to invest in rural Manitoba that supports all communities through programs like drainage, highways, health care and education. Mr. Tweed: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to refer the Government to page 41 of their Budget, where they talk about Festival du Voyageur, $319,000; Folk Arts Council, $301,000; United Way, $2.2 million; harness and quarter horse race support, zero. The minister refers to big money. We are talking $491,000. She has killed an entire industry in the province of Manitoba. I ask the Premier (Mr. Doer) to get involved. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 410 says that supplementary questions require no

preambles. I

April 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 667 did not hear the member get up and announce that he had a new question. Would you please remind the member of the rules, that there should be a simple question in a supplementary question? Mr. Speaker: The Member for Turtle Mountain, on the same point of order. Mr. Tweed: Mr. Speaker, I was clearly making the facts clear to the Government of Manitoba that by cutting this grant they have killed the industry. I am asking them on behalf of the people here and the people of rural Manitoba for the Premier to get involved. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. I would just like to remind all honourable members of 409(2). The question had been put. *** Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Speaker, I think the point is that the Government had to look at programs very seriously. This is a sport or a hobby by a group of individuals in rural Manitoba. We have worked with them and have bridged funding from where the Tories, where the previous government had looked at suspending funding in 1999. We worked with the individuals and unfortunately tough choices had to be made.

After a full review of the harness racing sport, it was decided that given Manitobans had reduced their support for this that this was the proper decision, a very tough one. It is regrettable that tough choices have to be made. Harness Racing Industry Meeting Request Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): On a new question. The mtmster talks about consulting the industry and the people of the province of Manitoba. The harness racing commission found out about this cancellation of the program last night at five o'clock.

If that is the minister's idea of consultation and discussing with the industry, I think we have to reflect and look back and see what we can do. I ask the Premier (Mr. Doer): Will he take a personal involvement in this issue and meet with the harness racing people today who are here in the Legislature to resolve this issue? Hon. MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines): I hope that the members of the Harness Racing Association understand my door is always open, and I have met with them many times.

I have met with the association and individual members many times over the last two and a half years. Mr. Speaker, decisions in the Budget are kept till Budget day. I do not know if this is a new concept for members opposite, but decisions were made and announced in the Budget that was presented yesterday. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Harness Racing Industry Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): I rise today to bring forward an important issue of absolute disgust that people in rural Manitoba are feeling towards this Government. Mr.

Speaker, last night at five o'clock an industry in Manitoba closed its doors because of a decision that this Government made. The decision that this Government made will put approximately 500 people out of jobs in Manitoba. Let us bring it down to the real facts. These are real living people working and making a living and contributing in rural Manitoba who today are out of work. The horse racing industry has a long tradition in the province of Manitoba. It existed in this province for 80 years.

In the past few years this organization has worked diligently with groups and governments to enhance their opportunities for the survival of their industry. The owners currently bred mares three years ago that are prepared this year to race, and a decision on a whim of this Government, they decided to pull the plug on this industry. I ask, and I have asked today, that this Government go out and meet with the

668 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2002 communities where there is no longer this industry, where this summer 11 communities will no longer have a weekend of harness racing in their communities. They lose all the economic opportunities that are presented to them, and we have an industry and trade minister of the province of Manitoba who is supposed to fight for the industries in the province and is supposed to support the business industry in this province.

Merely closing the door and saying well, it is not important to anybody and it is not important and perhaps it is not just important to rural Manitobans. I am absolutely disgusted. I share the disgust with the Manitoba Harness Racing commission, and more importantly, with all rural Manitobans who have been shunned by this Government. * (14:20) Mosquito Control Program Ms. Nancy Allan (St. Vital): I rise today before the House to recognize our Government's announcement to fund a comprehensive mosquito larviciding program.

As a result of this program, Manitoba summers will become even more enjoyable for residents and tourists alike. In partnership with the City of Winnipeg and 10 surrounding capital regional municipal ities, the Province will assist in reducing mosquito populations throughout the area. The plan calls for an aggressive larvicide program in a six-kilometre radius that circles the city of Winnipeg. Currently the primary phase of the program is underway with a $100,000 aerial mapping program that is targeting various mosquito breeding sites in the area.

By eliminating mosquito breeding sites, we effectively target the pests before they become airborne. By doing so, we not only stand to reduce the mosquito populations more efficiently but we also do so with less need for chemical fogging. This program serves to eliminate mosquitoes in a more effective and environ mentally safe manner and complements our province's efforts to reduce the potential impact of the West Nile virus. The recent announcement is the culmination of several months of consultation with a technical committee created by the Province.

Members of the City of Winnipeg, surrounding municipalities, the Manitoba government and the University of Manitoba have worked together to develop this comprehensive strategy. I would like to thank all those who have contributed to the process, and I would like to again applaud the Government on its leadership role in this important partnership. Like all Manitobans, I look forward to summers with fewer mosquitoes. Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry Training Exercise Deaths Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, as we are all aware, on Thursday, April 18, a tragic friendly fire accident in Afghanistan killed four Canadian soldiers and seriously injured another eight. I would like to take this opportunity to express my sincerest condolences to the families and loved ones of these soldiers who gave their lives for our country. I would also like to wish those injured in this tragic accident a speedy recovery. Among those injured was Cpl. Rene Paquette, who resides in my constituency of Fort Garry. He suffered a concussion, a bruised lung and two ruptured eardrums as well as shrapnel wounds.

I was relieved to learn that Corporal Paquette was recently transferred out of the intensive care unit in Landstuhl, Germany, and was reunited yesterday with his wife, Lauren, and their newborn daughter, Breanne, in Edmonton, Alberta. I would like to wish Corporal Paquette a speedy recovery and a very happy reunion with his wife and daughter. I understand Breanne was born while Corporal Paquette was overseas. I wish he and Lauren many hours of enjoyment and fulfilment as they experience the joys of parenthood. Mr.

Speaker, our military personnel continu ously risk their lives to safeguard the freedoms and securities that we as Canadians hold dear. As we saw last week, the dangers of being a soldier are not always foreseeable, but they are always present. The price we pay for freedom is indeed dear, and it should not be taken for

April 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 669 granted. The men and women in the Canadian Armed Forces risk their lives for us to defend our freedom. In return, our soldiers deserve our utmost respect for the duty and honour they display on our behalf each and every day. Not only should they be commended for their service, they should be reminded of how much Canada values their dedication and commitment to preserving our freedom. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Financial Foundation Resource Centre Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, a new financial services centre that increases opportunities for residents of low-income neigh bourhoods in Winnipeg to improve their economic well-being, will celebrate its grand opening in the North End on Friday this week, located at 607 Selkirk A venue in Point Douglas constituency.

With the focus on helping people save for assets like housing, education or small business start-up, the Financial Foundations Resource Centre will offer innovative services including the Winnipeg Saving Circle Pilot Project, the leam$save National Demonstration Project, the Housing Individual Development Account Project and the SEED Winnipeg "Build a Busi ness" Program. The programs utilize 3 to I matching savings incentives to assist low-income families begin the process of overcoming poverty and learning money management skills within a peer-to-peer environment.

Alternative Financial Services, a coalition of individuals and organi zations that includes SEED Winnipeg Inc., the North End Community Ministry, Assiniboine Credit Union and the United Church of Canada created financial foundations. Louise Simbandumwe, SEED Winnipeg's program developer, recently accompanied a graduate to make his down payment on a house. He had saved $1,700 in one year and was matched with three times the set maximum of $1500, so he basically received $4,500 to add to his $1,700, which gave him over $6,000 toward the purchase of his first home.

"He was thrilled, to say the least," she commented. Although spots in the Housing Savings Programs are currently full, Simbandumwe says there are several vacan cies in the savings program for education. The coalition is looking to expand matched savings programs throughout Winnipeg and raise awareness of their services through the city's many financial referral agencies.

Financial Foundations Resource Centre has received funding from the Province of Manitoba, the Mennonite Central Committee, the National Literacy Secretariat, Thomas Sill Foundation, United Way of Winnipeg, Investors Group, The Winnipeg Foundation, local investment towards employment and two anonymous philanthro pists, and we thank them for their support. Manitoba Book Week Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): I am pleased to rise today to draw attention to the fifth annual Manitoba Book Week Gateway to the Best, April 21 to 27.

Every April the member publishers of the Association of Manitoba Book Publishers in partnership with a variety of sponsors and supporters from the Manitoba book community present Manitoba Book Week. This week-long celebration of Manitoba publishing is held in connection with Canada Book Day and Brave New Words, the Manitoba writing and publishing awards. Exciting Book Week events include launches, readings, displays, events for children, French language events and a variety of other activities. Most events are free of charge and take place in a variety of venues all over the province.

Each year between 70 and 90 titles are published in Manitoba. Manitoba publishers produce a varied range of books, including works of fiction, non-fiction, drama, poetry, the spoken word, educational materials, children's books and how-to guides. They publish works in English, French and Cree. Many books are by Manitoba writers that tell Manitoba stories. Manitoba Book Week gives book lovers a great opportunity to meet these authors, participate in contests and enjoy Manitoba-published books. It is exciting to see, Mr.

Speaker, that an event which revolves around one of the province's culturally dynamic industries is already in its fifth year. I wish the organizers of

670 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2002 this Manitoba Book Week success and encourage all Manitobans to see for themselves the talent our province has produced. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you canvass the House to see if there is leave for a motion to be brought forward regarding rule changes? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed} Mr. Mackintosh: I move, seconded by the Member for St. Norbert (Mr.

Laurendeau), that effective immediately the rules, orders and forms of proceedings of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba be amended as follows- Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. 1. THAT effective immediately, the Rules, Orders and Fonns of Proceedings of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba be amended as follows: writing to the Clerk's Office by th e Whips or Whip's designate of each recognized party. (

c) by adding the following after the new Sub-rule 83(2): Notice of Substitution Required-83(3) The Whips or Whip's designate of each recognized party must provide the name(

s) of the Member(

s) resigning from the Standing Committee and the name(

s) of the replacement Member(s) 30 minutes prior to the commence ment of the meeting. Filling of Vacancies at Committee Meetings- 83(4) If the 30 minute filing requirem ent for Committee substitutions has passed, the Committee may fill the vacancy by a majority vote of the Committee. The Whip or Whip's designate, following the completion of the Committee meeting must file official notification with the Clerk's Office of substitutions made during such meeting. (

d) by deleting Sub-rule 121(2) and substi tuting the following: (

a) by deleting Sub-rule 75(1 3) and Bill for Incorporation-121(2) substituting the following: Reports of Committee of Supply-75(13) The Chairperson of the Committee of Supply shall report to the House items passed during the consideration of interim, main and capital supply, and shall also report at the conclusion of the estimates process, all resolutions passed and the concurrence motion. The Chairperson shall report matters of privilege re ferred by the Committee as well as incidents of grave disorder. (

b) by deleting Sub-rule 83(2) and subst itu ting the following: Committee Membership Substitutions-83(2) Substitutions to the membership of any Sta nding Committee of the House must be provided in Every Private Bill for

an Act of incorporation or an amendment of any such Act shall be in a form approved by the Law Officer. (

e) by deleting Appendices A, A-1, B, C and D and substituting the following: APPENDIX A MODEL PETITION TO THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA: These are the reasons for this petition: (or: The background to this petition is as follows:) (Briefly summarize the problem or grievance and any necessary background information)

Apri123, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 671 We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: 4. We ask you to pass an Order-in-Council to jill the vacancy. The two members of the Legislative Assembly giving this notice (Set out the action the Legislative Assembly is are: being asked to take or not take) (Please Print) Signature of member Signature of member Name Address Signature NOTE:

Section 25 of The Legislative Assembly Act states: Notice of vacancy caused in any other way than by resignation 25 Subject to

section 71 of The Controverted Elections Act, in any case of a vacancy in the representation of an electoral division created in any other way than by resignation, any two members of the Legislative Assembly may give notice of the vacancy to the Lieutenant Governor in Council and request the I NOTE: A minimum of three signatures is required for the I passing of an order in council for the filling of the vacancy �s�ulT!�Ic��=n=t�ex=e= c=u=ll�·o�n�o�if�th�e�p�e�t=u'=o�n�·--------------------��u�n�d�er�T.�he�E�k�c�tl�·o�n�A�c�t· �� APPENDIX A-I NOTICE OF A PETITION FOR A PRIVATE BILL This is a notice to the public that ------- (name of the petitioner) will present a petition for a private bill to the Legislative Assembly at this or the next session of the Legislature.

The private bill will do the following: (In the space below, describe the bill, state what it is intended to do and specify any exceptional provisions that the petitio11er proposes to include in the bill) Date Signature of the petitioner or (petitioner's lawyer) Address of the petitioner or (petitioner's lawyer) APPENDIXB NOTICE OF A VACANCY IN THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY To the Lieutenant Governor in Council: I. In accordance with

section 25 of The Legislative Assembly Act, this is notice of a vacancy in the electoral division of �---�--�----------0 ame of electoral division). 2. The member who is vacating the seat is: 3. The reason for the vacancy is: APPEND/XC RESIGNATION OF A MEMBER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY To the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly: I, ___________________________ (narrre of rrr ember) intend to resign my seat in the Legislative Assembly for the electoral division of ---------------------- (name of electoral division). Date Signature of the rrr ember Two witnesses are needed: Signature of first witness Signature of second witness NOTE:

Section 22 of The Legislative Assembly Act states: Resignation of member 22 Any member of the Legislative Assembly may resign his seat, (

a) by giving, in his place in the assembly, notice of his intention to resign, in which case, after the notice has been entered by the clerk of the assembly in the journals, the seat of the member thereupon becomes vacant; or (

b) by addressing and causing to be delivered to the Speaker a declaration of his intention to resign, made in writing under his hand before two witnesses, which declaration may be so made and delivered either before or during a session of the Legislature, or in the interval between two sessions, and upon receipt thereof by the Speaker the seat of the member thereupon becomes vacant.

672 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2002 2. THAT the following plain language wording be permanently adopted for use in the House (

a) Motion to resolve into Committee of Supply to read: THAT the House resolve into Committee of Supply (

b) Motion to res olve into Committee of Ways and Means to read: THAT the House resolve into Committee of Ways and Means (

c) Motion to resolve into Committee of the Whole to read: THAT the House resolve into Committee ofthe Whole (

d) Wording spoken by the Speaker and the Clerk for Royal Assent on Financial Bills: Your Honour, The Legislative Assembly of Manitoba asks Your Honour to accept the following Bills: In Her Majesty's name, the Lieutenant Governor thanks the Legislative Assembly, and assents to these Bills (

e) Wording spoken by the Speaker and the Clerk for Royal Assent on Non-Financial Bills: Your Honour, at this sitting, the Legislative Assembly has passed certain Bills that I ask Your Honour to give assent to. In Her Majesty's name, His Honour assents to these Bills. 3. THAT the staff of the Clerk's Office be author ized to produce revised rules incorporating all amendments, additions and deletions. Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh), seconded by the honourable Member for St. Norbert (Mr.

Laurendeau), that effective immediately- Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. Motion agreed to. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, would you also canvass the House to see if there is an agreement to allow petitions to be presented in either the old or the new format for the balance of this session with the understanding that for sessions in the future the new format will be required? Mr.

Speaker: Is there agreement of the House to allow petitions to be presented in either the old or the new format for the balance of the session with the understanding that for sessions in the future the new format will be required? Agreed? {Agreed] ADJOURNED DEBATE (Second Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: To resume debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), that this House approve in general the budgetary policy of the Govern ment, standing in the name of the honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, yesterday we saw the NDP government introduce their third Budget. I think a lot of Manitobans had some expectations. I think that after two and a half years in government, Manitobans were expecting this Premier (Mr. Doer) to show a little bit of leadership.

They were expecting to see some hope and opportunity, and they were hoping that in this Budget document there might be some vision, some vision not only for where our province is going but perhaps some vision so that young Manitobans-instead of what we have seen, young Manitobans leaving our province for other provinces throughout Canada, I think Manitobans were hoping in this Budget finally they might be able to see some leadership and hope and vision. * (14:30)

April 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 673 People in rural Manitoba were hoping that perhaps finally after two budgets this third Budget might give some hope and opportunity to rural Manitoba. They hoped that in this Budget they might see a government that was prepared to understand that at the end of the day they have to make some tough decisions on behalf of the taxpay ers of Manitoba to secure the future. That is what a budget document should do. Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair So during the course of this, Mr. Deputy Speaker, what did they do?

Well, they are telling us that they had some problems. They had some problems, and, frankly, it was a bunch of red herrings. What did we see? Well, they talk about the fact that September 11 had come, while we hear that Manitoba's economy has been steady because of its diversification. Then we find out that there is an overpayment from the federal government that has to be paid back. I think at some point you have to ask the question: Was the Minister of Finance, the federal Minister of Finance standing on the front steps saying please give me the money now? The fact of life, he was nowhere to be seen.

The unfortunate problem is that this Govern ment did not recognize and was unable to acknowledge that the revenues were not keeping up with their expenditures. In other words, like most families would understand, it is that they were spending more money than was actually coming in, and for hardworking families they understand that as a problem. Unfortunately, the Doer government just does not get it. It was the right time to realize that when you have spending pressures, it was the right time to tum off the tap, but the Premier (Mr. Doer) did not.

As a matter fact, for every thin dime that came in, the Doer government spent it. The problem is the thin dimes stopped coming in and this Government continued to spend and spend and spend. It was time for this Premier to stand up in front of Manitobans and say we spent too much money; it is time for us to look at our priorities. But he did not. What did he do? He increased spending by an additional $250 million. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, looking at the history of this Government, they have had close to a billion dollars of new revenue come in, spending every thin dime.

So we look at this Budget and what do we see? Well, out of nowhere this Doer government decides that, whoops, looks like we are not going to be able to balance the books from last year; looks like we are short. What are we going to do? Well, they have a solution, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is a solution that has never been done before in Manitoba. It is a solution where they went into one of the Crown corporations, and you think they might have learned something. The history of the Doer government, they have already had their hands in the cookie jar with MPI and they got caught.

Manitoba ratepayers were outraged, and, in fact, they did the right thing. They did the right thing. But now, what do they find? Well, they find that it looks like we are not going to be able to balance the books; looks like we are going to have to run a deficit. But wait, magically what happens? Well, here comes Manitoba Hydro, the unsuspecting ratepayers of Manitoba Hydro. There is a surplus there, Mr. Deputy Speaker, a surplus in Manitoba Hydro. So what does the Doer government do? They go in like bandits and they raid it.

They raid $288 million, take it out, and they take $150 million of that to balance the books from last year. This is not about looking forward, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This is about saying if we do not take $150 million from Hydro to balance the books from last year, we are going to be in a deficit. The books will not be balanced. The Minister of Transportation (Mr. Ashton) is going to have to take a pay cut because they will have not abided by balanced budget legislation. So, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, now what we see, we see our futures, the children's future of Manitoba, the opportunity that Manitoba Hydro provides for our children's future, we see this Government going in and raiding it. It is unconscionable. It is unprecedented. It shows one thing that I believe all Manitobans are starting to realize. That is that there is not a revenue problem in Manitoba. The problem is

674 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2002 that the Doer government has a spending problem. That is the reason that they have to go and raid a Crown corpor ation. Mr. Speaker in the Chair You know, Mr. Speaker, it is interesting. If there is excess revenue in Manitoba Hydro, this could be novel, and I hope members opposite listen, because this could be a novel idea. Maybe they could have paid down more of Manitoba Hydro's debt. Now, that is novel. That is a novel approach over there.

Maybe with that surplus of money there is a possibility that they could have said Manitoba families we know are the highest taxed west of Quebec, continually punished by this Government for not being competitive, maybe we should take some of that excess revenue and we should reward the hardworking men and women of Manitoba. Well, Mr.

Speaker, that amount is inter esting, because that some $750 that would have been given to hardworking Manitobans if, in fact, this Government would have rewarded those hardworking Manitobans instead of raiding the money like bandits because they have the inability to balance the books from last year, insuring that they put the money instead towards what would have been a deficit. Manitobans will not stand for this Premier to adopt their surpluses in Manitoba Hydro as his personal slush fund. That is not on. Manitobans will not have it. Hardworking Manitobans, Mr. Speaker, understand.

They understand the way they run their family, that you have a certain amount of money corning in and you have got to be careful and budget so that you do not exceed that, but not this Government. This Government thinks they have special priv ileges, special opportunities. They can just go out and look at a Crown corporat ion and raid that money to pay off the books from last year. We have heard the discussion come up, well, this is really a safety valve. Manitoba is not just a safety valve that the Premier can open at any time to feed his spending habits.

That should be done on the basis of responsible spending. * (1 4:40) One thing, Mr. Speaker, between us and that party over there, we believe that spending taxpayers' money is a privilege and something that should be looked at very carefully. They believe on the other side that spending taxpayers' money is a right. That is a difference between the Doer government and our party on this side. What else do we see in this Budget? Well, we find that there is a tax gap that continues to widen. We know full well that in the past Manitobans over the past decade have seen hope and opportunity in Manitoba, but no more.

That has ended. In fact, for the first time in our history, in the history of Manitoba, young men and women have moved out of Manitoba to every other province in Canada except Saskatch ewan. That is not a record that I think anybody can feel good about. Now you look at Saskatchewan. Well, it is interesting that in 1999 a middle-income family of four in Manitoba, they were paying $200 less than the same family of four residing in Saskatchewan. That Manitoba family was saving $200 more because it was better to live in Manitoba.

Now we see in this Budget that the middle-income-earning family in Manitoba is paying $800 more than that same family in Saskatchewan. So, in other words, there is a penalty on that family in Manitoba. They are paying more money than that same family in Saskatchewan. That is a shame, Mr. Speaker. That is incredible. You have got to know that all across Canada every government is reducing personal income tax, but not this Government. No way. No way are they going to reduce personal income tax. What they are more intere sted in is spending and spending. The result of that is very clear.

Young men and women are leaving this province because being competitive is not a priority for the Doer government, and that is unfortunate. In his election promises, of which he made numerous, one of them, of course, was to end hallway medicine, which we know he has failed. But one of his election promises when they said elect me and I will fulfil all these commitments, I will fulfil all of these promises with just over $6 billion of expenditures in a year, just $6 billion, well, last year, Mr. Speaker, in the Budget alone, he spent $6.88 billion, an over expenditure of some $880 million.

Now that we have seen that Budget, he says he is going to spend $6.99 billion. That again is another $800

April 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 675 million more than what he said he would spend in 1999. Well, $800 million could have made Manitobans more competitive by reducing personal income tax, something that might have kept us competitive with those other provinces in Canada. We know that this Premier (Mr. Doer) cannot keep his promises; he will not keep his promises; he is unable to keep his promises. This is a Premier that says one thing with the word "promise" in it, and then he fails to deliver to Manitobans. That is the record of this Premier.

For example, he said elect me and I will end hallway medicine. I will end hallway medicine in six months with $15 million. On that basis, this Premier has failed. He also said we will make our communities safer, we will make everybody's community safer, our streets safer, not to worry. Well, lo and behold, since he has been the Premier, the Hells Angels have moved into Manitoba. That is what he has done. By the way, Mr. Speaker, those guys ride Harleys. That is the kind of community safety that this Premier is trying to introduce into Manitoba. We will not have that. That is not safer communities.

That is not allowing our young men and women to say: I want to stay in Manitoba; there is hope and opportunity. That is bullets flying down Broadway, live ammo being shot in daylight, people's lives in jeopardy. That is the kind of safety that this Premier talks about. On a competitive basis, it was always a discussion about, well, what about Ontario, what about Alberta? There are two provinces, and he would say, well, you know, be careful about competing with those provinces because somehow that is a difficult thing to do. Why is it difficult?

It is difficult because the Doer government has a spending habit and does not understand that competitiveness is a priority for keeping young men and women in Manitoba. What we hear from the Doer government is, I hope, fingers crossed, take a big breath, I hope that we might be able to compete with Saskatchewan, because, boy, if we can compete with Saskatchewan we are really going to rev it up and we are going to do a great job. Well, Mr. Speaker, I think everybody in this House would know, and for the record I will say I am from Saskatchewan. Being able to {interjection] That is right. Punnichy, Saskatch ewan.

There could be a prize when you say that name right. Mr. Speaker, it is incredible and it is most, most unfortunate that the Doer government's bar to compete is to say, gee, I hope we can compete with Saskatchewan. Let us compete with them in curling, absolutely, but let us not set our bar so low on the competition, the competitive side, that on personal income tax we fall further and further behind Saskatchewan. It has become a struggle. It has become a struggle for us to even keep up with our province in Saskatchewan. So, Mr.

Speaker, you look at a budget, you look at a budget and you say: What have we got for rural Manitoba? What have we got for education? What have we got that keeps our young people in Manitoba, and what are they looking for? What are all young Manitobans looking for? Ultimately, from a government they are looking for some hope, some future, some sense that they can take pride and put a stake in the ground and say: Manitoba is where I want to live. It is where I want to live and I want my children to live, because there is hope and opportunity and a sense of pride of saying: I am a proud Manitoban.

Well, Manitobans are concerned, and after yesterday's Budget they have every reason to be concerned. Manitobans deserve more from this Doer government. They deserve more in terms of an economic growth strategy. I know that members opposite have some difficulty under standing what a budget is or what an audit is. I understand members opposite have a difficulty saying, well, I have created jobs. This is what I have done. I personally have created jobs, because I know what an entrepreneurial spirit is all about. There is risk. There is reward. I have had a chance to experience that. I have.

I have had that opportunity, unlike members opposite. That is exactly the difference between the leader of that party and myself. Clearly, all Manitobans want to see, all Manitobans are looking for is some sense of vision, some sense of openness, some sense of ability to say, yes,

676 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2002 Manitoba is a place that I want to invest, Manitoba is a place that I want to be proud to call home, and Manitoba is a place that I believe there is a future. * (1 4:50) So yesterday, Mr. Speaker, in the Budget we saw no vision. We saw no hope. We saw no opportunity. We saw none of those things, whether it is for young Manitobans, whether it is for rural Manitoba, whether it is for an oppor tunity to keep real jobs. People that are looking for high paying jobs here in this province of Manitoba, all they saw was zip, zero, nada, absolutely nothing. Mr.

Speaker, I think that again there has been a huge missed opportunity, a huge missed opportunity. Instead of giving a vision for economic development-! will say this again because I think it is important, something called entrepreneurial spirit. There is a word that unfortunately is not in their dictionary on the other side. It is a marvelous thing. They should try it. They should try to encourage it, because what it means is that it is not the Government that goes out and supports everything, it is individuals, because they have an opportunity, that if they put some capital at risk, there may be a reward.

That entrepreneurial spirit is what drives members on this side of the House and will always drive members on this side of the House. That is one of the differences between that party and our party, because we believe in free enterprise. So, Mr. Speaker, it is for that fundamental concern, along with every single other concern that I have outlined here this afternoon, that I have an amendment to the motion. I move, seconded by the Member for Steinbach (Mr.

Jim Penner), THAT the motion be amended by deleting all the words after "House" and substituting the following: Therefore regrets this Budget ignores the present and future needs of Manitobans by: (

a) failing to offer Manitobans any vision for an innovative, successful and sustainable future; (

b) failing to provide a long-term personal income tax reduction strategy that addresses the fact that middle-income Manitobans are the highest taxed west of Quebec; (

c) failing to provide a sustainable provincial spending plan; (

d) failing to provide Manitobans with timely disclosure of the $1 50-million retroactive tax imposed on Manitoba Hydro in order to avoid a deficit in the 2001 -02 budget year; (

e) failing to provide an economic development plan to provide sustainable economic growth in Manitoba; (

f) failing to provide any incentive for young people to remain in Manitoba despite recent information showing that Manitoba suffered a net interprovincial migration loss of 4549 people in 2001, up 4 7 percent from the previous year; and (

g) failing to provide adequate supports to Manitoba's agricultural sector. As a consequence, the Government has thereby lost the confidence of this House and the people of Manitoba. Motion presented. Mr. Speaker: The amendment is in order. Hon. MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines): Mr.

Speaker, I stand today to put a few words on record on our third Budget, one that provides balance and provides a vision for the future, a budget that not only keeps promises, promises to support health care, to enhance education, to rebuild our cities across Manitoba and to provide hope and a future for families and youth.

This is a budget that does that, as well as continues on our promises to be competitive with other jurisdictions by lowering taxes for Manitobans, and thirdly, by continuing our concerted effort to pay down the debt and deal with our pension liability, something that the previous adminis tration refused to deal with in their 10 years of mismanagement and avoidance. It is a pleasure for me to stand today and be in a position to be part of a government that has

April 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 677 dealt with a very challenging year. Mr. Speaker, we have seen unprecedented challenges over the past year, including a significant U.S. global slowdown that many U.S. economists would argue was a recession. We had the September 11 attack on the United States and the resulting impacts which not only threw the United States into a serious downturn but impacted the world around in every country, including our own province of Manitoba. In particular, hard hit was the aerospace sector,· a sector that we are very proud of.

The third largest aerospace sector in Canada is home right here in Manitoba. This sector has been impacted very, very dramatically by the events of September 11 and the U.S. slowdown. We have seen a significant downsizing in our large industries in aerospace, and we have seen an industry that has struggled through other hardships. But right now, that is a sector that we have seen significant adjustments. We are confident that this will be a short-term reaction to the events and it will recover. However, we have seen a very dramatic effect for aerospace.

In addition, we have seen very protectionist measures on behalf of our large neighbours to the south. The Americans have challenged us in softwood lumber, in steel industries, and the Wheat Board, once again. Mr. Speaker, this is again not only very difficult to deal with but has very real consequences on the people who work in our forestry industries from The Pas to Pine Falls to southeast Manitoba to downtown Winnipeg where Roslyn Nugent and her company remanufactures softwood lumber into value-added products.

Each and every sector in the forestry industry has been hard hit by the softwood lumber challenge. * {1 5:00) In addition, the U.S. launched a challenge for steel industries that had captured Manitoba Rolling Mills in Selkirk. Working with the federal government, we were able to get Manitoba and Canada excluded from that provision, fortunately, for the Manitoba Rolling Mills plays an integral part of a diverse and strong economy in Manitoba. The Wheat Board challenged over and over and over again by the Americans.

This is a service to rural Manitobans for growers that has been challenged and proven to be not a subsidy over and over again, Mr. Speaker. This again is going through the process of another challenge. Low metal commodity prices has impacted the mining sector. Corporate income tax is sharply declined because of the situation over the past year. In fact, if you look at the projected loss of corporate income tax, we see a loss of $230 million expended from last year's estimate 2001- 2002 to this year's estimate of 2002-2003.

That type of drop in revenue is a very challenging issue for a relatively small province with limited other opportunities for meeting the shortfalls. In addition, we saw challenges in our bus sectors both with New Flyer and Motor Coach Industries. We are very proud to say that we have worked with both of our leading bus manufacturers to come with what we believe is a satisfactory conclusion to those files. In fact, we are doing due diligence on the Motor Coach proposal right now. We are hopeful that we will see an expansion of Motor Coach.

Actually, we will be proud to welcome movie stars into Winnipeg to take their brand-new motor coaches from the Pembina plant in Winnipeg as they drive off in highly sophisticated, up-front, modem motor coaches. So we are going to be seeing a heightened activity in the bus industry in Manitoba. {interjection] And it works well with our film industry, as the Minister of Advanced Education (Ms. McGifford) points out. Another challenge that we have been facing, of course, is in health. I find it shocking and dismaying when I hear the Member for River Heights (Mr.

Gerrard), who is a physician by training, suggest that there should be no increases for the health care budget. Mr. Speaker, it seems absolutely untenable, given that we have an aging population. We have new and modem technologies that people expect and deserve, and we have the discovery of inventions in health in terms of drugs and innovation that can save lives and make our lives much more meaningful and practical. So for a person who is a physician to suggest that we should not invest in health care is a very disappointing and, I think, a damning statement from the individual from River Heights.

Perhaps it is true that he has been morphed over our period that we have not been in the

678 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2002 House, and he has gone from a liberal-thinking Liberal into this new radicalized Liberal, much more akin to the extreme right-wing members of the Liberal Party that we see in the province of British Columbia. They cloak their name under Liberal, but the policies that we see implemented are hack and slash, very radical adjustments to that province with little regard to forethought or to the people that live there.

I do know that the Liberal Party of Manitoba is reflecting on its future, as we all do and rightly so, and perhaps this new vision of the Liberals is like we have been hearing, the more radicalized Liberals. They are looking to make their mark on Manitoba's history. For instance, in B.C., they are closing down virtually every or maybe every other rural hospital. Is that what the member from River Heights is suggesting? One can only speculate, but I would suggest, from his comments today in the House, that that indeed is the route that the radicalized Liberals are supporting.

Now, those are some of the challenges, and I think everyone, all members of this House, all Manitobans realized it was a very, very tough year for governments across Canada. We have seen some very drastic decisions by other provinces, including raising very dramatically health care premiums. Other provinces have increased taxes. They have slashed services. They are cutting hospitals. They are slashing civil services. They are canceling debt payments. Well, we have said no to all of those. We have said no to health care premiums. We have said no to tax increases. We have said no to slashing services and programs.

We have said no to cancelling the debt repayment and we have said no to selling a Crown jewel. This was a strategy, Mr. Speaker, that the members opposite think of very fondly. They have a very fond memory or strategy of selling the Crown jewels when things get tough. The former government did exactly that when they were faced with a challenging time, which they were; there was no doubt about it. What they decided in their great wisdom was to take a Crown corporation, at that time Manitoba Telephone System, and put it on the selling block. There were winners.

The Province received a windfall that they socked into the rainy day fund, used immediately. Apparently it was raining. They took the money out, $400 million-plus, to mend some serious breaches of funding. They used those profits or that sell-off for balancing the Budget. Then there were those members that were on the board of directors that got a healthy payoff and there were the brokers and those in the know that did very well on that plan. * (15:10 ) Well, I am very proud to say our Govern ment refused that strategy and said, no, let us look at a more reasoned approach to balancing a budget.

Let us look at a more reasoned approach to meeting the challenges of dramatically reduced revenues, a balanced budget legislation, which we support, and our commitments to supporting education, health care, youth. Let us see how we can manage our financial situation in a way that both addresses the emergencies and looks to the future in a balanced and positive way. A major part of our bridging strategy was indeed ·g oing to our very successful energy Crown corporation. Mr. Speaker, we can be very proud of that legacy. We invested in it. We believed in it. We built it.

We built Limestone, and now we are very proud to be selling clean, efficient, and effective power to the United States and across Canada. Those profits that we receive from that power corporation are going to help us at a time when we are seeing unprecedented losses of revenue from corporate income tax. So, is it reasonable to look at our power corporation? Is it reasonable for Alberta to take taxes from their oil and gas industry? This has been the norm in the Conservative jurisdiction of Alberta year after year after year.

This is how they balance their budget, this is how they reduce taxes, and this is how they stimulate the economy. Nothing wrong with that strategy, Manitoba just has not done it. Alberta does it. B.C. does it. B.C. takes a dividend from their power corporation. Saskatchewan, our neigh bours, have also done the same. They use oil and gas revenues. I believe last year it was in excess of $800 million to the provincial revenue. That is a very healthy situation.

April 23, 2002 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 679 As Minister of Mines, who is responsible for the oil and gas industry, I am very interested in expanding our opportunities in our petroleum fields, but unfortunately we have just a small portion of the great wealth that Saskatchewan and Alberta have naturally. Alberta in fact last year had over $8 billion of oil revenue that they enjoyed and used to build a strong economy, one that has reduced taxes very strongly, but one that is heavily reliant on a fossil fuel industry that we know has a sunset date coming fast and rapidly.

So we have seen other jurisdictions looking at Crown corporations as a source of revenue to help balance, help provide wealth, help provide services to their people. Manitoba, at this time of unprecedented challenges, is looking at an option of taking a portion of the export revenues, the money that we are getting selling off additional supplies to the United States and using that to help us deal with very challenging times. I think it is logical. I think it is supportable. I think Manitobans appreciate it. Would they want to see rural hospitals closed as the Member for Kirkfield Park (Mr.

Murray) suggested or predicted? He suggested in his vision that we were going to-or perhaps that was his sugges tion, what he would have done, really, because this was his speculation. He knew that there was a very difficult year. He speculated, he predicted the Budget would include increased sales tax. He predicted an increased gas tax. He predicted closing hospitals. He predicted increased home care user fees. Mr. Speaker, I think that you can see that each one of his predictions was wrong, wrong, wrong.

In fact, what we have seen is a Budget that not only deals with challenges but provides hope and a future for Manitobans. Now, let us look at Manitoba's economic situation and see if we are doing well or poorly compared to other jurisdictions. Although members across the way and those here are fully aware of our statistics, not many of them choose to cite them. I am surprised that they do not ask me questions in the House. I am available every single day to talk about the economy.

I would be very pleased to talk about the statistics that show our unemployment is either the lowest or second lowest in the country for the past three years. That is a very strong indication that there are career opportunities here. In fact, there are jobs aplenty in Manitoba. Do they ask me about Manitoba exports? They have never asked me a question about our exports. Did we see a drop in Manitoba like the Canadian average saw a decrease of 2 percent? I have never had a member ask me from across the floor. Well, you know, the scenario is very different in Manitoba.

Exports have actually risen by 7.4 percent in 2001-2002 at a time of a severe crisis in the United States and globally. So a 7.4% increase in exports in Manitoba. That is a very good statistic. It shows that there are many. things happening in Manitoba in a very positive sense. Power sales: Our power sales and the revenue has been doing quite well, thank you very much, up 12.6 percent; housing starts up 15.7 percent; retail trade up 5.8 percent; farm cash receipts up 17.2 percent. Things are good in Manitoba. [interjection) Things are good, says the member who represents the Virden area.

You know, if I look at my own riding which is in an older part of Winnipeg, I can tell that things are going well in Manitoba from my neighbours who are talking about their home values. House values have risen in my riding alone by 20 percent. Mr.

Speaker, that is a fantastic testament to a strong economy, one with confidence, one that shows that there is a future and hope here. * (15:20) It is very unfortunate that members across the way do not want to talk about the economy or those statistics, but it is a pleasure for me to stand up today and put them briefly in my Budget speech and talk to Manitobans through this avenue and to members opposite just in case they missed the statistics, the good news. I am very pleased to talk about that. The situation this year did cause us to look at every line item in the Budget, Mr. Speaker, over and over again.

I can assure you that every program, every expenditure, was reviewed, evaluated, because we knew that tough choices

680 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2002 had to be made. We knew that government had to be smaller. There are many, many departments, including my own, that have taken dramatic reductions, 6.6 percent less for my department, Industry, Trade and Mines. What we have had to do is look at the programs and services that we offer, prioritize, evaluate and decide on what we can afford and what we cannot. Tough choices have to be made for a tough government.

There is no point in being in government unless you are willing to make some tough choices, and I am proud to say that we did, but we are also very fortunate in not having to do drastic measures that other provinces have had to take. Not only have we reduced government expenditures in most departments, except for those departments that are keeping our election promises, to youth, to education, to health care, to families and for rural Manitoba for our highway strategy. Mr. Speaker, we have seen governments reduce their expenditures in department line items.

Number 2, we have increased vacancy rates from 4 percent to 6 percent, maintaining our workforce that can provide essential services but keeping the flexibility and providing financial savings to the province. We have also reduced or limited the amount of discretionary spending that departments have. All of these measures have meant that government expend itures have been reduced to just over 2 percent, and that is at a time when you are seeing health care demands rising at over 7 percent. That, I think, is a commendable record and one that we have not seen for many, many years in Manitoba. Mr.

Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair So when we look at issues of competitive ness, the members opposite are always crying out we want more. We want more. We want more tax cuts. We want more services. We want more. Well, you know, it is very difficult in a time where many members who were in Cabinet in the previous government know that choices have to be made, that programs that you want to implement may have to be delayed.

The tough choices might mean some reductions, but the tax cuts are an important measure of being competitive, and it is important that we are comparable to jurisdictions in Canada because, as we are looking at promoting Manitoba as the place to invest, to grow businesses, to come and move to, we must be comparable to other jurisdictions.

If you looked at the Budget document, the Manitoba Advantage 2002, you can see that, for a number of different sectors, Manitoba and Winnipeg play out very, very well, house prices, cost of living, overall retail price differential, the capital expenditures on recreation and culture, which is extremely important for all of those young people involved in the knowledge-based economy, monthly industrial electrical bills are the lowest in Winnipeg. Second lowest is Vancouver, Montreal.

I think what is significant is that ours are the lowest and puts us in a situation that makes us comparable and competitive across Canada. Let us not forget we are often quick to jump to Alberta as a comparison. Let us not forget that Alberta-[ interjection] Alberta, as B.C., has levied a health premium of over a thousand dollars a year per individual, and that comes on top of other taxes. So it is very important to look at all measures when you are comparing jurisdictions.

If you look at health premiums in B.C. for a family of four earning $40,000-now, this is a family that is working perhaps in a manu facturing facility, perhaps one member is working in the service sector, and they have two children. I think this is fairly typical of the people that live in my riding. Mr.

Speaker, if you look at the numbers you can see that the amount of personal income tax, and then if you add on health premiums, and then if you look at child benefits, property tax credits, retail sales tax, gasoline tax, mortgage, property tax, home heating, electricity, auto insurance, telephone, for that family of four, of each and every province in Canada we are the most affordable location of any jurisdiction in Canada, including Alberta. Alberta's costs are $1 2,450. In Manitoba it is $1 0,386.

I think that you can look at that comparison and we come out well for a number of different categories including families.

April 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 68 1 We are not going to say there are not improvements that could be made. We must continue on a regular basis to be competitive and make steps towards being comparable with other jurisdictions. We have to look at the whole picture, both in personal income tax, in property tax, education support levy, our electrical costs, our child care benefits. They all play into the cost of living in Manitoba, which plays out very favourably to all jurisdictions in Canada.

I am very proud to announce that Manitoba has launched a new initiative for the mining sector, the flow-through share program. We believe that this will help junior companies and exploration teams raise private sector capital to do advanced exploration, to get projects started. The mining sector, which amounts to 3.5 percent of the GDP, is an important sector for Manitoba and has, when commodity prices have been higher, brought in well over $40 million a year in mining tax alone.

This is a sector that not only employs many, many people in Manitoba, pays one of the highest wages of any sector, and has built northern Manitoba in a great sense of the word. So we are proud to initiate the flow-through program for mining. This is a program that tops up the federal program and has been instituted in other jurisdictions. I think this, along with the Mineral Assistance Exploration Program that we have, the MEAP program, means that Manitoba is viewed very, very favourably to any other jurisdiction in Canada, perhaps the most favourably.

Now that we have flow-through as well as the MEAP program, I think that we can be assured that exploration will be enhanced and promoted, and our mining industry, which is dependent of course on exploration, will have a future in upcoming years. In addition, we have taken over 4000 individuals off the tax rolls. We continue to cut small business taxes, we continue to increase the threshold. This year alone it moves up from $300,0 00 to $325 ,000.

So, as the tax portfolio keeps on going down, I think that there is no denying we have continued our promise to be competitive, to reduce taxation, reduced it in small business taxes, corporate income taxes, personal income taxes, property taxes, education support levy, mining flow-through shares and the dropping of many individuals from paying any tax at all in Manitoba. Debt repayment is another important component of a balanced portfolio when you look at a fiscal regime. I am very proud to say we continue to do that. Manitoba has been in an enviable position across Canada of having a relatively small debt.

Even so, I do not think there is anyone on this side that likes to pay interest on debt incurred. Debt is sometimes brought forward because of projects like the floodway, emergency situations, the Depression, and other reasons for incurring debt, times of trouble or reduced incomes. Many governments have incurred debt. * (15:3 0) We build hospitals; we build educational institutions; we build roads, airports. These are all important pieces of the infrastructure necessary for being a modem and vibrant economy, but there is no one on this side that likes to pay interest on debt.

So we continue on the strategy to reduce debt and to recognize our responsibility for the pension liability, a respon sibility ignored by the previous government and one that we have tackled, a responsibility that means that it will take us some time, but we are accepting it, that we will take measures to deal with the debt and the pension liability. I have to commend the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) on his recognition that it is wiser to pay down to move into the pension initiatives and that that indeed is a more innovative way of dealing with both the debt and the pension liability issues.

In terms of a strategy or a business plan, a plan for the future, I think that the Government can be proud of the steps it has taken. During the election in 19 99, we called Manitobans together in a Century Summit. The Century Summit brought together for the first time in over a decade leaders from every sector, Aboriginal leaders, women leaders, business leaders, educators, labour leaders, to the table in one collective voice, and from that meeting, we came

682 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2002 with a vision for Manitoba. The recommendation was one to move into the knowledge-based economy, that Manitobans should adopt knowledge-based economy sectors and that we should use the tools of education, that we should use our tools of immigration, and that we should use our energy advantages to build Manitoba into a knowledge-based economy. Those recommendations have been worked on by each and every department in this Government from Agriculture to ITM, from Family Services to Advanced Education.

Each and every member of the puzzle has a role in bringing and moving our economy into the knowledge-based economy through strategies like the nutraceuticals. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Deputy Speaker, can you- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Ms. Mihychuk: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I know that the members opposite are anxious to speak on the Budget, and I look forward to their comments on the record, but please ask them to restrain their comments until they have an opportunity.

I only have a few more issues that I would like to put on the record that talk about the innovation strategy that we are preparing, that talk about how we move the educational resources that we are investing in, how we take that intellectual property and create economic growth. That is a strategy that has been adopted by successful communities all over the world: Singapore, Ireland, Denver, Dallas, Minneapolis and now Winnipeg. We can say that we get it. We understand that the future for tomorrow is about intellectual property. It is about knowledge.

It is about our ability to use our knowledge in a way that creates jobs, opportunity and hope for Manitobans and, in particular, young people. I know that members across the way are talking about interprovincial migration. We had a recent report that showed that we lost approximately 3000 individuals to interprovin cial migration. It is disappointing, and we want to stop interprovincial migration outflow. In fact, we are doing a fairly good job. Overall, our record over the past three years is 30 percent better than the previous administration's record.

In fact, there were many years when over 10 000 Manitobans chose to leave under the previous Filmon era. Now it is down to 3000, but even that is disappointing, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is true that we do have members from Manitoba who choose to go to other provinces. Some of it is unavoidable. Some of it, I encourage. Many of us travelled after university. I went to school in Ontario, lived in Newfound land, had a very good experience, learned about other places in Canada but came home when I had an opportunity.

That is part of the Manitoba Comebacks program where it invites Manitobans to come back because we have a number of opportunities for Manitobans to fill. In fact, two focus groups conducted in Calgary and Minneapolis showed that over 50 percent of those individuals were looking to come back home. With a career opportunity in Manitoba, they viewed this as a positive move, wanting to come back to Manitoba where they see a positive future for themselves and their families. The Century Summit said invest in education, invest in immigration, move into the knowledge-based economy.

We are very proud to say that we will be announcing our inno vations strategy very shortly that highlights the specific tools and methods that we are going to use to get there. It is important to include all members of society. It is important to include everyone because to move an economy forward into the knowledge-based economy requires everyone to agree. It requires rural Manitobans, northern Manitobans, urban Manitobans, young, old, business and labour.

I think that this co operation exists in Manitoba, and for that reason I believe that the recommendations of the Century Summ it will be played out in an economic platform that we will be presenting this year that moves Manitoba forward for a bright and prosperous future for Manitobans. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to begin today by welcoming our newest member of the Legislature, the

April 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 683 Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Hawranik) and I want to congratulate him on winning the riding very handsomely in the area where the NDP- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, when the election was called, the Premier (Mr. Doer) could not wait for my good friend the former MLA from Lac du Bonnet to resign before he quickly ran over to the Speaker's Office to call the election-what was it?-20 minutes after the resignation was handed in.

They were so confident that they were going to win the election that they could not wait to call it. You know, the people of Lac du Bonnet were wiser. They were smarter. We have to give them much more credit for choosing a candidate to represent them who not only sits on the right side of the House but indeed represents the values and the objectives and the hopes and dreams of the people of that constituency, and I sincerely want to congratulate now my colleague, the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Hawran ik).

Manitoba has a history, a very rich history, and every year we enter into a time of economic beginning, if you like, for the province in a fiscal year with a speech from the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) who lays out the financial plan for the province. Mr. Deputy Speaker, over time I think there are certain principles that we have always adhered to, principles that Manitobans hold near and dear to their hearts, principles that Mani tobans want to ensure that governments appreciate and acknowledge.

Those are things such as ensuring that we live within our means as a government, ensuring that as stewards of the Treasury of this province we do what is honourable in terms of how we spend the money, and also that we are careful in how we raise the funds as well so that we do not overtax the citizens of our province. * (15: 40) Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, all of that went out the window this Budget, because if we look at how this Government has decided to balance its books, it is somewhat deplorable. I will speak about that a little later.

One of the other things that I have found very curious in the lead-up to this Budget was, I guess, the lack of sensitivity to certain sectors of our economy. I have to say that rural Manitobans had a right to fear what this Government was going to do in the Budget, and they expressed those fears in weeks and in days leading up to the Budget. Indeed, we saw those fears were warranted when the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) made his speech in the House here yesterday. It is unquestionable that we have lived over the last two or three years or the last four years in a time of economic buoyancy in our province.

Our economy has outperformed in many instances what the national average has been. We have in the past been only second to Alberta, I think, in the province of Manitoba, and that was in the years when we were in government. In the 1999 election we predicted that we would have an economic growth in this province that would measure a billion dollars over a period of five years. During the election in '99 we signaled how we would spend those monies. Half of that money would go to repaying the debt that was incurred by the NDP party in this province.

The second part of it was going to go to ensure that our social programs that Manitobans need were going to remain strong and were going to remain what Manitobans needed. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the NDP during the election campaign scoffed at the idea that we would even think that our economy could grow by a billion dollars over a period of four years. They said that was im possible. Where are you going to get the money?, said the then-leader of the NDP, now the Premier (Mr. Doer).

Well, two years of government by the NDP show that the economy did not only grow a billion dollars over the course of four years, it grew a billion dollars in two years. That is not our numbers, that is the Government's own numbers that speak to that. The revenues of this province have grown by a billion dollars. All we have to do is go to the statement of revenues for the Province of

684 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2002 Manitoba for the past two years and you will see that evidence in the books. Now, the question is: If we have had such growth in this province, then where did the money go? Where was the money spent? It is sad to say that our party, who had promised to pay down the debt using half of that billion dollars, could not do it, but this Government blew that half-billion dollars on other things. Now, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, health care is important, and I am not going to suggest that health care has ever been overfunded, but there is more to health care than simply throwing money at it. This Government threw a half a billion dollars at health care in two years, but did it save anything? Did it improve anything? Did the waiting lists decrease? Did the times for surgery decrease? To date, we have more people in the hallways in the hospitals of this province than we have ever had since 1999. We have more people waiting for surgery, waiting for procedures in this province than we have ever had.

A promise that was made to the Brandon General Hospital to put in a CAT scan to improve the facilities there is still being waited for by the people of Brandon. So where did the money go? The money was wasted. When the Government faces a challenge, when it cannot balance its books, it can no longer draw on those increased revenues because it has built those increased expenditures into the base, and it finds itself in trouble. So they reach out. At first the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) said, well, we are going to have to reach into the rainy day fund. Okay.

That is the fund that was created for that purpose. That fund was put in place for days when the economy did not grow and days when you had to reach into that pot, so to speak, to make sure that you, I guess, lived up to the expectations that Manitobans had of you. So this Government decided on an alternate route. Not only was it going to take money out of the rainy day fund, but they were also going to start double taxing Manitobans and double taxing the ratepayers who buy hydro services today by raiding the Hydro coffers of this province.

Now one would think that Manitoba Hydro has bushels and bushels of money in its coffers. The reality is that the earnings of Manitoba Hydro, the saving account of Manitoba Hydro, stands at about $14 million, and this year the Government has demanded from Manitoba Hydro that they want $15 0 million, $75 million for last year because they could not balance their books and $75 million for the current year when they say they cannot balance their books. Mr. Deputy Speaker, this is a time when you have a buoyant economy. This is a time when the economy of this province is doing very well, thank you.

I have to acknowledge all of the business people, all of the entrepreneurs, all of the working Manitobans who contribute to the economic wealth of our province because they have done a good job. Manitobans have done an excellent job in ensuring that our economy is strong. Mr. Deputy Speaker, one of our slogans in the years that I was with government was that we wanted strong communities. We wanted strong rural Manitoba. We wanted strong cities. We wanted a strong economy, and we got it, but what did this Government do? It sold out Manitobans. The Government likes to blame everybody else for its woes.

Two and a half years into its mandate, it still cannot take responsibility for anything. As soon as you point something out to this Government, they have someone else to blame for it. They will go back two and a half years and blame the former administration. They will go to the feds and blame them. Failing that, they will blame Manitobans, but they will never take responsi bility for their shortcomings and for the things that they do to the citizens of our province. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have a government that says it is only going to increase its spending by 2.5 percent.

Well the economy, according to them, is only going to grow by 1. 7 percent. So we have a government that is getting itself into trouble because it has no plan. It has no vision. It has no idea where it is going. Now I am going to ask where are they going to get the money once Manitoba Hydro runs out of it, because this is not sustainable. It is not $15 0 million, as we see in the books of the Province right now. You have to look at the other aspects of it. They are going to use $1 4.7 million, I believe it is, to build roads in northern Manitoba out of Manitoba Hydro.

April 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 685 Mr. Deputy Speaker, last year they increased water rates, which are going to take another approximately $10 0 million into the coffers of the Province, so where is Manitoba Hydro going to get all this money? It is not just $50 million or $75 million a year. This is starting to add up to something like $280 million over a three-year period from Manitoba Hydro, but on top of that you have to add the water rates, and on top of that you also have to add the northern roads which are there as well. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the question is how long can this continue, because Manitoba Hydro does not have a bag full of money. Members opposite talk about the profits of Manitoba Hydro. Who are these profits made by? These profits are contributed to by the ratepayers, the people who buy the services from Manitoba Hydro. Now we are saying that they should be double taxed. If you are going to say that, well, the profits are going to raise by $12 0 million or whatever it might be or $210 million, I think is the number the Premier (Mr. Doer) used, then should that dividend not go back to the rate payers?

Should the ratepayers not be seeing something out of that if there are going to be those excessive revenues coming to Manitoba Hydro? Manitoba Hydro has an obligation to its ratepayers. It has an obligation to the rural people and the people in urban Manitoba. We have talked about the need for three phase service in all of rural Manitoba. Even Saskatchewan has it.

I can go across the border, and I live close to the border, and I can locate anywhere in rural Saskatchewan and have three phase power. * (15: 50) Members in the House may not know what that means, because in rural Manitoba, if you can get onto three-phase power it means that your savings vis-a-vis your operating costs are very substantial, because you can run equipment on three-phase power for just pennies as compared to what it needs on single-phase. Now, if you are going to do something for Manitobans, why would you not look at extending services to the people who pay for those services?

But this Government has cut that off. They have not allowed Manitoba Hydro to do what it is supposed to do. They have raided their purse. They have raided their bank account, a bank account that does not exist, because Manitoba Hydro is going to have to go to the bank to borrow the money to be able to pay the Government. Now, do Manitobans really understand that? I think that they do, because I did not expect the reaction that we received after the Budget.

I was getting calls from Manitobans all around the province who said: Is this true, can this really be, , is it allowable, does the law allow for the Government to raid the Manitoba Hydro bank account to pay for last year's mistakes? My colleague from Burrows says the answer is yes. Any government can give itself that power, but is it ethical? Is it ethical?

I ask the Minister of Finance, is it ethical that he is the Minister of Finance and the Minister responsible for Hydro, and does he then have a meeting with himself and say, now, as Minister of Finance I am going to tell the Minister of Hydro to hand over $75 million? I am going to tell myself to hand over $75 million from Manitoba Hydro. When we talk about a conflict, I think Manitobans would see this perhaps not as a conflict in the real meaning of the term, but more importantly as a breach of ethics and how government is supposed to do its work. Mr.

Speaker in the Chair If the Minister of Finance was so confident that this was the right approach to take, why would he not take this measure to the Public Utilities Board, a third party, which can call forward witnesses, which can call forward experts to determine whether or not this is a proper process in doing business in Manitoba? What does the Minister of Finance fear from taking that approach and taking that route to determine whether or not this is an appropriate route to take for funding the shortfall of this Government in this period of time? Mr.

Speaker, in the Budget, one of the issues that the Government did highlight was the fact that corporate taxes for the province of Manitoba were going to decrease by something in the neighbourhood of $230 million. Now, Mr. Speaker, if that is in fact true, if this projection is

686 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2002 lived out, what is that really going to mean for the province of Manitoba? What is it going to mean in the business community? Do you think that any business will operate simply without making a profit for the purpose of staying in business? I do not think so. That is not sustainable. Businesses are going to take action, and they take action very quickly.

They either decrease their employees that they have in their companies, their work force, or they are going to reduce the output that they have from their companies, because they will not stay in business simply by churning their wheels. So, Mr. Speaker, I think this is a signal. It is a signal that the Government should take very seriously, because it could very well mean that those corporate profits or those corporate taxes that are received by this Government are going to fall further in the future year.

If we start looking at this Budget department by department, I can see that there is an increase in what money is going to be flowing to the City of Winnipeg. I do not have any qualms with that provided that it is sustainable, provided it is needed. We want a strong city. We want a core area in our city that we can be proud of rather than ashamed of. We want to ensure that crime rate in our cities is dropped. We want to ensure that things like car theft, things like prostitution, are wiped out, if we can, in our city. This is our city. This is not somebody else's city. We are all Manitobans.

We are proud of our city, and we want to make sure that it is a strong city. At the same time, we want to ensure that all the other smaller cities in our province remain strong, that all the other communities remain strong. I cannot help but think that our rural representation by the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk), the Minister of Intergovern mental Affairs (Ms. Friesen) has been snubbed. These people have forgotten their responsi bilities to rural Manitobans.

The Minister of Agriculture, when she was in opposition, used to wring her hands and say, boy, if I ever get the chance to become Minister of Agriculture, I will stand up for Manitobans. I remember the days when we gave out a $50-an acre payment, and she said it was not enough; they would do better if they were in government. Mr. Speaker, since she has been in government, she has done nothing, absolutely nothing, to help rural Manitobans, to help Manitoba farmers. Do not take it from me. You ask any farmer out there, and they will tell you the same.

They are somewhat embarrassed that they do not have a strong spokesman for them in the Legislature of this province. They are embar rassed about the performan ce of the Minister of Agriculture in this province, and that is not me speaking. You talk to the farmers. The farmers came to the Leg here. They lobbied this minister for support, and what did she do? She did not come out. When she did, all she could do was blame the federal government, and then she ran back inside. She was gone. At first she did not come out. When she did come out, she spoke briefly, and then she ran back in. She was gone.

She was so busy. She was so busy doing nothing. Mr. Speaker, that is typical of this Government. Rural communities, they are the heart of rural Manitoba. These are small communities that are striving to exist in an economy that seems to be passing them by. These are communities that depend on the quality of life to sustain themselves, that they have always been able to market. The quality of life in a rural community is special. The quality of lif e in a rural community is close to family. That is what is important about rural communities.

During our years in government, we worked very hard to ensure that we gave these rural communities every advantage to be able to survive, succeed and to grow, and it was happening. There was an excitement in Manitoba. In the next few days, we have Rural Forum happening. I am sad to say that the results of Rural Forum have been less than successful in the last two years. As a matter of fact, it seems to be changing its focus because all of a sudden this Government does not have as its priority to ensure that we have strong rural communities, Mr. Speaker.

Like the farmers, these people are facing a very difficult time with this Government in power. Today we saw another blow when we were made aware by the harness racing association of

April 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 687 this province that the Minister of Industry Trade and Mines (Ms. Mihychuk) has cut their funding- An Honourable Member: Callously. Mr. Derkach: She cut it callously, yes, without consultation. Now that is typical of this Government. We have seen the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) break the law. He broke the law. Not once, not twice, but three times now he has broken the legislative act of Manitoba as it pertains to The Public Schools Act. He has gone out and broken the act, but he said he is doing it in the interests of Manitobans.

He does not have the mandate, for example, to amalgamate school divisions. He does not have the mandate without going through the Board of Reference, without striking a Board of Reference. Mr. Speaker, how is he proceeding? Does his Premier (Mr. Doer) not see what this man is doing? Manitobans are not going to tolerate that. This Minister of Industry Trade and Mines is ignoring the importance of consultation, the importance of working with Manitobans. I am told that the harness racing association of Manitoba has something in the neighbourhood of 500 people working directly or indirectly in that industry.

That is 500 people who depend on horse racing in this province for a living in one way or another. Now we may say, well, they do not depend on it solely, but every penny that comes into a household is important whether it is from a part-time job or from a full-time job, and there are 500 people who work in that industry who are going to be impacted by this minister's callous decision. * (16 :00) Mr. Speaker, I found it curious today that back-to-hack to this issue was the mosquito issue.

We are prepared to spend a million dollars fighting mosquitoes, but we could not support 500 people who depend on jobs in the horse racing industry by providing a grant of $491 ,000. There is something wrong with our priorities. There is something wrong with our attitude. There is something wrong in how we view the people who make up this province. The minister in her address to the Budget just now talked about the high-tech industry. Yes, it is an important one, Mr. Speaker, but married with that are the traditional economic industries, the traditional economic engines that drive the economy of our province.

She just killed an industry in one fell swoop. Yes, she killed an industry. You know, it is not just the people who raise horses. It is not just the people who look after those horses, but it is the people who grow the feed for those horses, who provide the nourishment for all of those horses. I am told that in the horse racing industry today that it costs about $20 in hay costs alone to keep a horse for one day. These are specialized animals. So therefore, somebody has to do that, so therefore, you are affecting somebody else's income. That is hardly a way to diversify our rural economy.

Whether it is northern or whether it is just southern rural, it does not matter. It is the rural economy of our province. So, Mr. Speaker, where are the real priorities of the Government? It is certainly not in looking after rural Manitoba. Of particular interest to me yesterday in the minister's address was that he made specific reference to northern Manitoba as a separate part of rural Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, you, yourself, are from northern Manitoba. There has been a lot of money invested in northern Manitoba, and I think that is fine.

I think that is just fine, but we should not do that at the expense of others. We should not be looking at where we can cut programs from other Manitobans so that we can indeed help our friends. That is not the approach that we should take. We look at the area of health care, an extremely important area in Manitoba. Every body can agree with that. In the last two years we have put more than half a billion dollars into the health care field to try to shore up some of the shortcomings, but we have not outlined a plan for Manitoba in health care.

We have not outlined a vision for where we are going in health care in the province of Manitoba. Repeatedly, the critic for Health on our side of the House has asked the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) for his plan, for his vision, but nothing has come forward. Now I hear, and the minister has not denied it, that we may have a

688 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2002 consolidation of regional health authorities in rural Manitoba. Specifically, Marquette Region al Health and Southwest Regional Health may be somehow merged. Whether it is with Brandon or who it is with, we do not know. I asked the minister in Question Period yesterday whether he has any evidence, whether he has any proof that indeed these regional health authorities are not doing their job, because what is the threat if you combine even larger regions together? The threat is that you do not have representation from these small communities .

There is nobody to speak for people who come from Gladstone or from the Swan Lake Reserve or from my community of Russell or wherever it might be. The decisions are made in remote locations, and you do not have that representation. Now, in Winnipeg it is quite different, Mr. Speaker. In Winnipeg it seems to be all right and I am not attacking Winnipeg for this, but I am just showing the difference-to have the local boards. Yes, those were established long ago. We kept them in place for each hospital in the city of Winnipeg except the Health Sciences Centre.

On top of that, we have another layer of government in health care in the city of Winnipeg called the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. Now, the numster talks about reducing costs, administrative costs, and if there has ever been a duplication of costs, the evidence is here in the city of Winnipeg. The big dollars in health care are spent here in the city of Winnipeg. They are not spent out in rural and northern Manitoba. The costs in rural and northern Manitoba are fairly small vis-a-vis the Budget, because we do not have those specialized services.

We have to come into the city of Winnipeg for those specialized services, and now the minister says I am going to find further savings by inflicting greater pain on small rural communities. My colleague the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cununings) asked the question the other day of the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) with regard to emergency services in the small hospital of Gladstone. The minister said, oh, no, we cannot do that. Mr. Speaker, there are people from outlying communities around Gladstone who have to travel as long as 71 kilometres to Gladstone alone to receive emergency services.

If we do not restore those services, those same people will have to travel 90 to 100 kilometres to get emergency services. Now, what does that say to a person who might have a heart attack and lives 50 kilometres or 100 kilometres from an emergency service? What are his chances or her chance

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-3-18
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 3rd hansardpdf 18.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	db09e925187bec1ea0344115987f020c03d52a90

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