Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPL Y - HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (V irden) : I call the Committee to order , and I'll recognize the Member for Inkster the courtesies , and then followed possibly by a ruling , but a courtesy to the Member for Inkster, I' 11 let him finish his remarks. MR. GREEN : Mr. Chairman, I don't wish to speak by sufferance, Mr. Chair­ man. If I have a right to speak , I have a right to speak. MR. DESJARDI NS : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman. saying that you will recognize the member as a courtesy. right.

I don't know what you mean by courtesy , and -- ( Interjections )- - What do you mean by I think it is his I'd like to know. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well , I recognize the right , and I call on the Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: Okay , Mr. Chairman. I would like to conclude. If there are any problems , Mr. Chairman, with the items - if my friend, the Member for St. Boniface will just pass the Estimates Book, I would indicate that we have proceed­ ed , as I understand it , just so that there is no misunderstanding as to the item that I am speaking on, the last item we dealt with was l.(

a) Minister 's Compensa­ tion. That was passed. The next item that was introduced was the global item, Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty $1 ,573,600.00. Actually , I thought that I was on the last item, $149 ,160 ,200.00. But it really doesn 't make any different, Mr. Chairman. If the $1 million had not been passed globally , that is a motion that goes to Committee on which one can speak.

The Minister 's salary has been closed , and I am speaking on the global item, $1 ,573,6 00 ; and I understand that there will still be another global item to discuss , which I thought I was on , but it really doesn 't make any difference because both are global items. Mr. Chairman , I wish at this time to come to the defence of the Minister of Highways and Transportation, because I think that the Minister has been abused by the majority members of this committee. I think that it is not unusual for a member to ask for confidence in a Minister.

That was done , and the vote was in favour of the Minister by a majority vote in the House. But the members of the majority apparently are of the opinion that the Minister cannot defend his salary ; and I understand that the Minister has not spoken on his salary , that there have been no speeches. --( Interjecti on)-- Mr. Chairman , he spoke to introduce his Estimates. He spoke to introduce his Estimates. Mr. Chairman, there was a motion in the House with regard to the Minister 's salary , which was defeated , and there has been no further debate on the Minister 's salary and I charge , Mr.

Chairman, the members of the Conservative majority , of lacking confidence, not in the Minister receiving his salary , because they voted for it obviously in the House , I charge them with lacking confidence in him being able to defend the receipt of his salary , which is probably worse, Mr. Chairman, than had they voted the other way. Because to vote for a Minister 's salary and then to suggest that he cannot defend it , just means that he gets his salary with­ out being able to defend it. Now I, Mr. Chairman, don't happen to have that low a regard of the Minister.

I am not really way up there either, but I do not have as low a regard for the Min­ ister as is obviously been displayed by a majority of the members of the committee who say , and this is the first time in parliamentary history that I am aware of - when I say parl iamentary history , Mr. Chairman, I'm not going outside of the con­ fines of this House - but I know that when we used to discuss Estimates between 1966 and 1973 or 1974 when the rules were changed , the Minister 's salary was al­ ways first. Therefore, in the days before I came , and when the Member for St.

Boniface was a member , it would also be the case that the Minister 's salary was always first. And therefore, the Minister always had to de fend the receipt of his salary. When the change in rule was made , Mr. Chairman , it was made on the basis that a more - 1601 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 rational analysis of the expenditures would take place if we dealt with the items, item by item, but that the Minister would then be able to deal with his salary only as the last item. And in order to protect the last item, Mr . Chairman, and this is particularly something that the House Leader should be listening to be­ cause , you know, the House Leader is a fine gentleman I think, but he has adopted his freshman year as House Leader and has been given the enviable responsibility , Mr. Chairman, of doing some particularly obnoxious thing. And it 's true.

I mean, he was asked to go to Rules Committee and force through a rule of which there was a considerable amount of accommodation , which was denied , and subsequently had to be reversed. - Now he's been asked , and I will be corrected if I am wrong, to make the first motion , Mr . Chairman, of closure on the Minister 's salary based on a five-minute debate and one speech having preceded that debate. The Minister 's motion having gone through , the Minister 's salary was confined to a speech made by the Member for Ste .

Rose and a five-minute speech. • .no, I have to include a motion made by the House Leader, which took of course no time at all , then the Leader of the Opposition 's speech for five minutes , and of course , the irresponsible and uncon­ trollable outcries of the Member for Lakeside , the Minister of Public Service, who of course couldn 't be gagged , Mr . Chairman, in any way by any closure motion. The Member for Lakeside has said , "You can't impose closure on me.

Perhaps you can close it on those weaklings in the opposition, those fine people who will obey the rules after closure has been imposed , but you're not going to impose closure on me, and I'm going to speak to the press from my seat in the Legislative Chamber, telling them that those people are all wrong." But to become somewhat more serious , Mr .

Chairman , not that I'm not serious up until now, but to become somewhat more serious , if the Attorney-General will look at the rules, he wi ll see that there is room for two closure motions, actually three , on any single item, and I'm sure the Minister has cottoned onto this, he can move that the item be moved forthwith, in which case that is dealt with. On all of the items leading up to the Minister 's salary , he can move a motion setting out a specific period of time to conclude all of those items.

But the Minister 's salary was left out , because the people on the Rules Committee said , that no matter how much you move closure up to the Minister 's salary , you will have to have a separate debate on the Minister 's salary, and if you want to move it , there has to be a separate motion.

Now, what the Attorney-General has done , is that he has been so fearful of the capacity of the Minister of Highways to be able to deal with his Estimates and to be able to just ify his salary , so certain that if he let the Minister open his mouth , the entire Conservative administration will fall down like a house of cards, that he said , we can 't under any circumstances let this guy talk ; we can't. And therefore , Mr . Chairman, what the Minister had said was, at the cost of having to go to the public and say that , we pulled a new one.

We have , for the first time in Manitoba parliamentary history in any event , we have imposed closure on the Minister 's salary with a five-minute time limit , after one speech. Now I ask the Attorney-Genera l, because this is not the last time we're going to be here, I ask him to look at those rules, the three rules that I have sug­ gested , and indicate whether this type of procedure was ever contemplated , whether it was necessary under the circumstances, and whether it will get him anywhere. Because , Mr .

Chairman , if we are not able to get this Minister to talk during this particular debate, is the Attorney-General aware that on second reading of the total bill to vote supply , we go into committee, and in committee you are able to again go through this procedure . And the fact is, Mr . Chairman, that if the Min­ ister will look, he will see that on second reading of supply and into committee, in the closing days, that it is very rarely debated . It 's not as if the Opposi­ tion , particularly when it 's nice outside and the moon is shining and it 's warm, that they want to prolong debate.

But they can be provoked to prolong the date . I want to tell the Attorney-General - I'm going to come clean and I'm going to make an honest admission - I had no intention of speaking today . He provoked me into a 30-minute speech for nothing, which none of you would have had to endure , and it has been an endurance. It has been an endurance. And therefore, Mr . Chairman , I tell the Attorney-General that he is - for his own good - he has proceeded with this rule in such a way as not to accomplish what is a perfectly legitimate result. - 1602 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 Mr. Chairman, there was an argument in the House today. I'll reveal it to my friends of the New Dem ocratic Party because it was something which I - it 's not as if I have raised it for the first time. When the bells were ringing for more than 15 minutes, or so , and there was a suggestion that the opposition could keep the bells ringing forev er, I said , not on your life they can 't.

And I said , that in no way is the opposition entitled by the Whips saying that they're not ready to stop the parliamentary procedure from continuing; and that if the Speaker, or the Chairman , came to the conclusion that the Whips were merely delaying a vote and not legitimately trying to get members into the House, that the Chairman could call a vote. And , Mr. Chairman, I say that - not out of love for the New Dem ocrats or love for the Conservatives - but out of love for the parliamentary system, which I do not want to see anybody interfere with.

And , therefore , those people who think that they can prevent a vote by not appearing and saying that the Whips won't let you in. I can tell you that when I was the House Leader, I went to the Speaker and I said , they've had a reasonable length of time; unless they give you an explanation as to why they need more time, I am asking you to take this vote. And I would defend the right of the government to do that today. So , do not get the impression that these remarks are being made on the basis of being for government or anti- government.

They are being made for the purpose of having our parliamentary system operate in a way which is sensible. And I defend the closure motion. If the members of the opposition had decided that they were going to debate the Minister 's Salary in such a way as to obviously convey to the public that they are not engaged in meaningful debate, then the Minister has a right to come in and say , "Look , you 've got one hour more , you 've got two hours more, you 've got the remainder of tonight's sitting , and then we 're going to ask you to vote".

There would have been probably some postured outcry , but the government would have been right - and they would have been seen to be right , Mr. Chairman. And I'm not saying this for the first time. The Member for St. Vital , the Member for Kildonan, I don't see any others here on the Rules Committee --( Interject ion)- ­ Well , all right , the Member for Minnedosa has heard me say this before, both from the government side of the House and from the opposition side of the House.

That if the Attorney-General is going to cause the members of the opposition to be seeking out time for the purpose of debating , then it will not result in a good process, and what is more, will accrue to the disadvantage of the government in power, which of course I am delighted to have happen. But I don 't know why he is delighted to have it happen. I say further, Mr. Chairman, and I plead with the Att orney-Gen eral , there is still one item on which the Minister 's salary can be debated , and there is abso­ lutely no doubt about that.

Because when we were discussing putting the Min­ ister 's salary at the bottom in Rules Committee , all of us agreed that even the Minister 's salary is over, there is still one item. And we all said that, it should be no surprise. We said there is still one item, and that is the total amount , and there could be a debate on that item, and that debate of course is subject to the normal rules of parliament. So , Mr.

Chairman, in summing up , and just because I don't wish to take more time than is absolutely necessary to make my remarks , and I trust that every word that I said was necessary to the debate that we are particip ating in, I charge the government , Mr. Chairman , and condemn the government , for degrading their Minister of Highways, who, Mr. Chairman, I'm sure could do much better than they expect of him, if they will only let him. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. DON ORCHARD (P embina) : Mr.

Chairman, since the Member for Inkster 's remarks won't be corrected by members of the opposition, I would ju st like the record to stand clear that in the dying hours of yesterday 's session , when the item of the Minister 's salary was being debated last evening, the Member for Ste. Rose as critic for the department presented a motion which we voted on this after­ noon in the House. And after that motion, I decried him for making such a das­ tardly motion, such an unjustified motion , such an unwarranted accusation , and - 1603 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 such a terrible position to put on the record . That was last night when I defend- ed my salary , Mr. Chairman , and I don 't want the Member for Inkster to be putting the wrong impression on the record . So I would just like to correct that, that in fact last night I defended my salary to the utmost degree and there was no reply from any member of the opposition once I had justif ied my salary , Mr. Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: Committee, if I could just have your ear for a moment .

During the dinner hour, I, with the assistance of other people , looked at the Rule and for what it 's worth in my judgement of it, it would appear that when Rule 65 (1 5) and (16) was drafted , it was evident that the intention was that passage of the two motions, i.e. , the department and then the Minister 1 s salary , was to preclude further debate on the department's Estimates. MR . GREEN: Speaking to the point of order , there is nothing in the Rules to say that . I have described the rules . And furthermore , the Rules Committee considered this very point , Mr .

Chairman, not more than a month ago , and we all agreed that after the Minister 's salary was voted on, there was a motion for the global item; there was a motion. You put the motion, Mr. Chairman. You said , "Resolve that there be granted to Her Majesty the sum of $1 ,573,6 00.0 0." You put that motion. That motion is debatable . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR . ARNOLD BROWN : Mr . Chairman, unfortunately we have a lot more people in here tonight than what we had in here last night, and I believe that this is where some of the confusion is originating. Last night, the Member for Ste.

Rose , after considerable debate and so on , he made what everybody would have considered was his closing speech of the Estimates. He made that speech, and at the end of that speech, he moved to reduce the salary . Now traditionally, that has always been the last item of debate from the opposition, that the last item of debate was reducing the salary. At that time, Mr . Chairman, we asked the members opposite whether they were through debating the Estimates, and we received that assurance that they were. The Member for St . George gave us his word that they were through •• MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows on a point of order. MR . BEN HANUSCHAK : Mr . Chairman, on a point of order, I have no recollec­ tion of being asked for any assurance that there would be no further debate. MR . BROWN : The Member for St . George gave us that assurance. Now, I don 't know, if he has not been ·talking to you , that's something that we cannot help . But the Member for St . George gave us his word that they were through debating the Estimates of Highways , and he said , "tomorrow afternoon we'll go into the Legislature . • 11 MR . CHAIRMAN: One member at a time .

The Member for Rhineland on the same point of order . The Member for Rhineland. MR . BROWN : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. The Member for St. George said that we were going to go into the Legislature this afternoon, we were going to have two votes, we were going to have a vote on reducing the Minister 's salary and then we were going to vote on that particular appropriation to complete the Estimates. Now this is the verbal agreement that we had with the members of the opposition last night.

I am certain that the Member for Inkster did not know of this, be­ cause we 've always respected his word ; a word was a word , and we 've always been able to respect his word . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Inkster on a point of order. - 1604 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 MR . GREEN : Yes, Mr . Chairman, surely the honourable member is not saying that my word , or that the official opposition is, if I didn 't do what they said , it 's not breaking my word . I am not ••• MR . BROWN : What I said , Mr . Chairman, was, I do not believe that the Mem­ ber for Inkster knew of this agreement or this arrangement , but nevertheless , this arrangement had been made. I am certain that the Leader of the Opposition , when he charged in here this afternoon and starting tilting windmills, was aware that this agreement had been made. We expect agreements to be honoured.

If we can not have agreements honoured when they are made with opposition members , then I don 't know, then we 've come to a real sorry state in this Legislature . We had no inten­ tion, and we still have no intention, really , of invoking closure . That never was the intention. You had every opportunity last night to debate these Estimates. But it was your motion that closed debate last night, and it was your assurance that you were through debating the Estimates of Highways. Now that is why we find ourselves in the position that we 're in at the present time.

We have debated 20 hours and 25 minutes up to last night, the Estimates. I believe that everybody must realize that that is many more hours than we 've ever spent on the Estimates of Highways . It was 14 hours and 50 minutes last year . We are 6 hours above the Estimates of which they usually are . So you had ample opportunity, really , to debate the Estimates, but it was really your decision last night to cease debating these Estimates. So therefore , Mr . Chairman , we really have no alternative but to cease debating the Department of Highays Estimates and to vote on them. MR .

CHAIRMAN: Is the Member for Rhineland making a motion? --( Interjection)- - Then indicate - do you want to put the question , is • The Honourable Member for Rhineland . MR . BROWN : Why don't you call the next item. Actually we passed (l) (a) ; we passed (l) (b) ; we passed all of them. The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR . USKIW : Mr . Chairman, the Member for Rhineland is obviously confused . We have voted on the question of the Minister 's Salary , we are now voting on the global motion representing some $1 .5 million of expenditures and that is a debat­ able motion. So far, Mr .

Chairman , we have had only one or two comments on that item, and the Member for Rhineland suggested that is sufficient debate. Now, perhaps it would be sufficient debate if we didn't have the interlude of the last couple of hours , Mr . Chairman. But let not the Member for Rhineland suggest to us that some members should be precluded from making a contribution on this motion. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste . Ro se. MR . A.R. (P ete) ADAM : On a point of order . My recollection - and I think I am correct that the government members would not allow a Yeas and Nays vote last night.

That's because it was after 10 o'clock. Therefore , the committee should have rose or moved on to another item, and there was no other item to - so, there­ fore, except this motion now that we 're on, the global figure. The Member for St . Vital suggested to the Chairman that he take it under advi sement. The Committee of Rules was meeting this morning at 10 o'clock and they could be discussed there to find out on what grounds we were standing on that particular question.

That 's where the argument arose , and there were members on this side of the House - I spoke about , perhaps, 10 minutes or less ; and the Minister replied , perhaps, with 5 minutes reply . There were other members on our side of the House that wanted to make their contributions on the Minister 's Salary , but we had to dispose of that motion. There was a motion before the House to reduce the Minister 's Salary , and that motion had to be dealt with. And there was an attempt made last night to defeat my motion and also to pass the global Estimates.

There was an attempt made , and we had to argue for half an hour or more to try and resolve that ques­ tion last night which was resolved today . And my understanding is that we would go into the House, and we would deal with that motion to reduce the Minister 's Salary , and that we would come back here, and - 1605 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 then deal with the main motion, and that was his salary, --( Interjection )- - The $15,600, the $15 ,6 00 , that 's what that is. I have no recollection that there were any deals made. I have no recollection of any deals made last night. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows. MR . ADAM : Well, we ' re on the point of order, and I don't know where we stand at the moment. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows. MR . HANUSCHAK : No , I was not going to speak on a point of order . I was going to • MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste . Rose . MR . ADAM : Are we on a point or are we off that? MR .

CHAIRMAN : No . MR . ADAM : Okay . I just had a couple of more items that I wanted to ask the Minister, that I asked him a question last night in regard to a question of turn signals on motorcycles, and I wonder if he could elaborate more on that par­ ticular question . I know that he doesn 't have any assistant here , but when I got home last night at 12 o'clock I did have more information on this particular sub­ ject . There was a letter waiting for me in the mail from the Antique Motorcycle Club of Manitoba .

I'm not sure whether the Minister is familiar with this group , but I would like to ask the Minister if he could , perhaps , elaborate on the time limit for the antique bikes , and the older model bikes , if he can deal with that. Or , if he can't deal with it tonight, perhaps he could give me that information tomorrow, but I would like to read this letter into the record . MR . ORCHARD : Don 't bother, it 's already been solved , Pete. MR . ADAM : Well, perhaps, if there is a solution ••• MR . ORCHARD : Absolutely . MR . ADAM : I wonder if the Minister could give us that information.

I think I think I'll put that letter in -- ( Interjection )- - I'm asking the Minister a question. MR . ORCHARD: You 're debating the motion. MR . ADAM : I'm debating the motion , the global figure. Mr . Chairman , the letter is addressed to me and it said : "Dear Sir : I am writing you in regard to the legislation to be declared as of April 1, 1980 requiring turn signals on all motorcycles . We , the Antique Motorcycle Club of Manitoba , would like to urge you to support an amendment of this law to include a cut-off date , exempting older motorcycles .

We suggest a cut-off date of 1969 , and depend our correspondence with Mr . P. De Galla on this subject . As you can see , he seems to see no objec­ tions to our request , but has doubts about the possibility of passing an amendment before April 1, 1980 deadline . We have been lead to believe that such an amend­ ment is being prepared , and would urge you to do anything in your power to speed passage of such an amendment. As a club, we have no obje ctions as a cut-off date later than 1969 , but would have serious reservations should an earlier date be proposed .

We would appreciate any reply you can give us indicating your intentions in this respect ." Now, I wonder if the Minister could just elaborate on that. MR . CHAIRMAN: I wonder if the honourable member would give us a date of that letter. - 1606 -

Tuesday, 25 March, 1980 MR . ADAM : March 18, and I just received it last night. MR . CHAIRMAN: Thank you . The Honourable Minister. MR . ORCHARD : We ll, Mr . Chairman, I want to tell the Member for Ste. Rose , we have been in communication with that organization. MR . ADAM : Not yet , I never MR . ORCHARD : We told them last week, Mr . Chairman, that an amendment was coming forth which would exempt all motorcycles from 1974 and back from the re­ quirements of turn signals. That organization had that information by phone, confirmed by letter. That amendment , Mr .

Chairman , is going to be made retro­ active April 1, 1980 . The speedy passage of that amendment is, indeed , in jeop­ ardy when we consider the waffling tactics of the opposition. MR . ADAM : Oh, come on, come on, now. Mr . Chairman, the letter was sent to Ste. Rose , not to the Legislature , and that 's why I didn't get it any sooner . But I only got it when I got home last night. It was brought to me from Ste. Rose . The other item I wanted to - just a short item - if the Minister could clarify it for me again , in regard to the five-year restricted licence. There is no re­ course , is there?

We have established that conclusively , there's no recourse for this fellow? else? MR . ORCHARD: No , there is no recourse. MR . ADAM : Mr . Dygala , the Registrar, cannot look at that case , or anyone MR . ORCHARD : No , Mr. Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN : The Member for Emerson. MR . ALBERT DRIED GER: Mr. Chairman, all Estimates and expenditures have been approved item by item, they have all been initialled and there is no further moneys to be approved . I move that the question be put on Resolution 80 now. QUESTION put , MOTION carried . SUPPLY - FITNESS , RECREATION AND AMATEUR SPORT MR .

CHAIRMAN , Morris McGregor (Morris) : I call the Minister of Fitness , Recreation and Sport . HON. ROBERT (B ob) BANMAN (La Verendrye) : Thank you , Mr . Chairman. I have a few brief opening remarks with regard to the operation of the Department of Fitness , Recreation and Sport . MR . CHAIRMAN : The Member for St . Boniface. MR . DESJARD INS: Mr . Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would allow us a bit of information , so that we don 't have the same comedy of errors that we 've had this afternoon and tonight. Is it the intention of the Minister to include the Lottery at this time?

If so, will we wait for the Minister 's Salary or could we get some information before, because I think it is practically impossible , as far as I am concerned anyway , to really look at what is being done in this depart­ ment. Because there is a lot of revenue from the government that is spent for some of these programs , and I think there has been an agreement with the Sports Federation that they are taking the responsibility previously held by the Minister. While I'm at it , I wonder if the Minister could indicate if there will be a closure motion when we get to his Salary .

I would like to know what to expect. - 1607 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 MR. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, in light of the exercise that we all got , this being the Department of Fitness , maybe we should go through the same exercise again. But in reply to the honourable member's question, I think he is quite right, there are a number of items within the Estimates' structure itself, as we go through the di fferent areas , that hinge on Lottery revenues. If it would be acceptable to the members of the committee, in dealing with the agreements and the Manitoba Lotteries Commission, if we could leave that up to the Minister 's Salary. MR. DESJARDI NS : The agreements.

MR. BANMAN : The agreements and the operation of the Manitoba Lotteries Commission , which is under me. I don't there is a special line anywhere because it 's ... MR. DESJARDI NS : But as far as the money, the revenue from the Lotteries and the programs that are run , you will explain it ••• MR. BANMAN: I think that 's the only fair way of doing it. If we would leave it to the end, you wouldn 't get a true picture of what is going on. So. as we go along.

Before commenting specifically on our programs, I would like to say that it has been very rewarding to be responsible for this particular new department of government. It provides the opportunity to meet and work with people of all walks of life, from all parts of the province and from all areas of interest.

I would particularly like to today commend my staff , both the field personnel as well as the administrative people, along with the Deputy Minister and the Assistant Deputy Minister , who have done a tremendous job in bringing this particular department together and contacting so many people throughout Manitoba. Over the last year , I had opportunities to be involved with several particular sporting events.

One of them, which I attended last summer, was the Western Canada Games, where I saw such things as Grant Towne here of Manitoba win the gold medal in the marathon , Sylvia Burka perform outstanding feats in the speed-skating events, and saw gold medal play on behalf of our basketball, volleyball and hand­ ball teams. Need less to say , this brings a special kind of satisfaction and pride in seeing our Manitobans perform in such outstanding fashion.

These are a few of the more spectacular happenings , but it is equally rewarding to see the increasing number of people throughout the province engaged in such activities as cross�country skiing , jogging , cycling and many of the other recrea­ tional activities which help keep Manitobans physically fit. Our goal is to br ing a certain amount of joy , personal satisfaction and the many other benefits that come to people who are engaged in leisure activities. One of the main principles of our operation is assistin g people to assist them­ selves.

This is best achieved by supporting municipalities, community organiza­ tions , recreation agencies and sporting associations. There are a number of programs of support , but as we go through the Estimates, we will see that there are a number of major ones , one of which I announced the other day , the Sports Facilities Aid Program, and the other one which has caught on really well over the last number of years is the District Recreation Program.

Sports Facilities 80 will provide , as I mentioned in the House the other day , $2 million from Lotteries revenues for the renovation and upgrading of sports' facilities, with a view to increasing community use of such facilities and yet decreasing the operational costs and energy consumption. The District Recreation Program enables small communities to combine their resources to hire a full-t ime recreation direction to conduct their programs and operate their facilities. In the past year , six new districts were formed , bringing the total now up to 18 .

In dealing with fitness , we want to continue our practice of working co-opera­ tively with agenc ies providing physical fitness opportunities. This includes recreation commissions , community centres, sports groups , "Y"s , summer camps and other groups that are encouraging people to stay active. We are also cooperating with organizations such as the Manitoba Heart Foundation , which is offering a program of fitness which is called Fitness in the Workplac e, and we are presently - 1608 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 reviewing a program named Cooperate Challenge , which encourages business esta­ blishments to become involved in competitive games. In addition to these projects, support will be given to special programs I have referred to in the past , such as Frontier Games, an athletic program for children throughout the north ; Bird 's Hill Day Camp , operated for children deprived of their summer vacation opportunities, water safety instruction , the Manitoba mara­ thon, senior olympics, and so on.

These are but a few of the projects offered to encourage Manitobans to become active , to become fit and to experience the benefits of physical well-being as well as the jo ys of participation. A major project which we have had a positive effect, I believe, on the sportin g community in the last year, is the relationships which we have developed with the Manitoba Sports Federation in the 61 provinc ial amateur sports body . The Federation , by means of the revenue earned as a partner of the Western Lotteries Manitoba • MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for St . Boniface. MR .

DESJARDI NS : I hesitate in interrupting the Min ister , but better now than later in having to repeat it . I turned on Page 51 , we' re looking at the Department of Fitness, Recreation and Sport and it 's got two lines. We were talk­ ing about certain things under the Minister's Salary ; there isn 1 t even a Min­ ister 's Salary ; forgot he's getting his pay later on. MR . CHAIRMAN: To the member, 52 is Minister 's Compensation. MR . DESJARD INS : Oh , I'm sorry . Yes , I've got it now. I thought there was no Minister ••• I'm sorry . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR . BANMAN: Only half, Mr . chairman.

The other half comes from Co-Op Developments. While the Federation is carrying out its function in assist ing sports bodies, our department with its regional services will link up with the efforts of the communities and its organizations, and give assistance to development of activi­ ties at the local level.

My department will continue to provide direct ass istance to provincial sport associations for sports development programs ; grants will be available for cli­ nics, coaching certification , athletic aid , travel to and hosting major champion­ ships , and a regional development program to involve more rural people. And I'm pleased to report that the Gimli Training Centre has been in full operation to serve as a residential training site for sports and cultural groups.

In co-operation with the Gimli Development Corporation , the centre has been operating on a break-even basis with an annual saving of about $50 ,000, and has seen increased use . Also the Sports Inj ury Centre is being successfully operated at the Refit Centre. This program is unique in Canada and is receiving national recognition for its treatment of athletic injuries. The program has treated over 5,0 00 ath­ letes in the seven-and-a-ha lf month period and has received many glowing compli­ ments for its service.

My department, in conjunction with the Advisory Council, is reviewing a plan to expand the service and to include a Prefit Program which will offer a ph ysical appraisal to check the capability of athletes in their different performing skills . In conclusion, I would like to state that we have enjoyed a very successful year , I believe . The major program thrusts have seen a good effort on behalf of all the groups , the community groups , regional groups and the provincial agencies.

I would also like to pay tribute, as I mentioned before, to my staff, and we look forward to the 180s with great expectation and are confident that we can encourage the provisions of fitness, recreation and sport opportuni ties for people in all segments of our population. MR . CHAIRMAN: l. (b) (l)- -pass . The Member for St . Boniface. - 1609 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 MR . DESJARDI NS: Mr . Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minis ter, does this cover the salary for a staff of how many? MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR . DESJARDI NS : And I intend to ask the Minister the number of the staff on every item, so I wonder if he could advise us, compared with last year. MR . BANMAN: Yes , this provides total staff man years of five . It 's the same level as last year . If the member would like , I could probably ju st send him a

summary of the total staff man years. MR . DESJARDI NS : Yes , that would be better. Is last year on that also? MR . BANMAN : Yes , it 's a comparison. MR . DESJARDI NS : Thank you. Mr . Chairman, I'd like to find out now what is happening , what has happened to the Minister 's Advisory Committee on Fitness and Amateur Sport . There was a committee. There is

an Act that allows this. The committee has been sent. I never heard that the committee was disbanded . The former Minister chose to name another committee - why I' 11 never know - another committee to study the whole question of sport when they had a Fitness and Amateur Sport Committee, which was duly named by Order-in-Counc il - and never rescinded - and it was felt also that if the Minister certainly had every right to name extra members, other members , or to replace some - but this was never done - now I'd like to know.

I'm not talking about this Minister 's committee, which is not governed by any Act, just the committee they put together chaired by Mr . Daly and I have all the respect, I'm not knocking that committee at all - but I'd like to know if the Advisory Committee on Fitness and Amateur Sport that was there three years ago , if it still exists, and in fact what are the names of these members? MR . BANMAN: Mr . Chairman, the committee, as I understand it from my ex­ perience with regard to this when I took over , that the committee had expired .

There were two members who were serving on that committee; as part of that commit­ tee were serving on the WLMD Board of Directors ; in other words , were representing that particular association. And the funds for that third were accruing to the department. What has happened is, with the advent of the Manitoba Sports Federation jo in­ ing , those two members were resigned from WLMD , and at present there is no Advi­ sory Council such as the member points out that is reporting to the Minister. MR . DESJARDI NS : Mr .

Chairman , I understand that, and I'm not opposing this, that the Sports Federation replaced that committee as one of the partners that was intended from Day One. But the Sports Federation chose not to accept that in those years , and then they've had a change of heart when they couldn 't make a success of their own lottery. But that is something apart from that. That is an Advisory Committee for the Minister on Fitness and Amateur Sport . That was a name. That Commi ttee was a name to represent this group on the lottery thing. It was only until the Sports Federation made up their mind .

We didn 't want to see sports lose anything . So that Advi sory Committee was asked to make recommendations. It was quite active . But this committee was there before this committee, it 's been there for years . In fact, I think this Act was brought in by the former Conservative government and I would like to know why, if the Minister said that committee doesn't exist , was that Order-in- Council rescinded? If not, that committee does exist , in fact . And if my memory serves me right, they were not named for any period of time.

I would advise the Minister if he is not - and it seems obvious that he is not discussing with that committee - that he is not getting the benefit of their recommenda­ tions. I recommend, and maybe I should wait till he gets his information. MR . BANMAN: I'm advised , Mr . Chairman , and I have worked under the impression that the terms of the particular appointments were expired and there has not been another body appointed. - 1610 -

Tuesday , 25 March, ·1980 I should point out to the member that there are regional councils right now that are in place dealing with some of the rural problems. We do have a sports' medicine group that is advising the Minister with regard to the sports medicine aspect of the thing, and we do not at present have an advisory council of the nature that the member refers to in place. MR . DESJARDI NS : Mr . Chairman, I'm not too sure about that. I don't want to argue with the Minister , and I don't fault the Minister for that . This was done by a previous Minister .

But I would ask that he che ck, because if he did have to go back to the original Order-in -Counc il when these members were appoint­ ed , and if there is no period stated, they are a member until the Order-in-Counc il is rescinded , and I doubt if that was done. Now, apart from that, I would suggest to the Minister that he should name a committee. He named other committees in the community recreation which existed before, but I don't think that they would replace that committee. I'm not saying that he should stay with these people.

If he wants to change the committee, he certainly has the right ; they have a mandate to govern and they can do what they want . But I think that that committee is provided by the Act; that committee could be very helpf ul and I think that the Minister should see first of all if that committee was rescinded . If not, I think that he should resurrect this committee and name some of the members , because I think that they could be very valuable . It 's an overall committee that would still help. I know that there is another committee on sports medicine, but that 's only one phase of it.

I know there are committees for different communities, for community recreation, but I am speaking mostly now for fitness and amateur sports. And I think that the Minister should have a look at that - I don't fault him at all , this was done before - first of all , to check and see if actually that committee does not exis; maybe they're not meeting, but I think they exist, and if this committee doesn 't exist , I would suggest to the Minister that he look very seriously at naming a committee. It 's provided by the Act; there's no Act, noth­ ing changed .

I could - in fact, if the Minister is not familiar with this Act - well, I can find it after anyway. He knows - it 's The Fitness and Amateur Sports Act. So I think that there is a real value for these people. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR . BANMAN: Mr . Chairman , I'll undertake to check. It was my under­ standing that the terms had expired ; if that is not the case , I agree with the member that the proper steps should be taken to rectify that. I take his advice with regard to the forming of such a group as possibly a good one.

I guess one of the things we've managed to do in the last little while because of the two depart­ ments coming together, is to coordinate some of the efforts before you had the department scattered in two different areas , which did cause some problems dealing with recreation. I think that the member will agree with me that there is, in many instances, very little difference between recreation, fitness, and sport . If somebody is doing some physical activity for their own pleasure in their spare time, it 's recreation, it can help them in their fitness and also be part of a sport .

And so I will check whether that term has expired and exactly where we stand with that. MR . DESJARDINS : Mr . Chairman, I wasn't going to bring up this point , but the Minister did , and I would like to say a few words on that. Again , I can accept that the department is together, but I can see nothing wrong with the way it was before . You have community recreation. It talks about all the recrea­ tion. It could be readin g , it could be painting , it could be anything else. It is mostly recreation. And Fitness and Amateur Sports is something else.

If it was the Department of Health. • .I think that we were making an effort to provide more programs on fitn ess. There was very little done , if anything, in the prov­ ince before that . This was being done, and then with amateur sport . So I can't say that it 's wrong to have it all together , especially now that the Minister is not. .previously there was the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs , and it didn 't fit there any better than it did in Health. I think part of it fit in Health. Now that there is a Minister of Fitness and Recreation, there is no problem.

But I don 't like the term "scattered" as if it wasn 't - 16ll -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 important , because I think we set up a department, a directorate of Fitness and Amateur Sports, and I think in many ways, the Minister - and that doesn 't prevent him from cooperating with the Minister of Health, but I think a lot of it can be done , some of the things that are being done now. Because when you talk about fitness , let 's not just think of fun and games.

That is certainly part of it, but fitness is also a proper diet , and it 's many things that are now done - preventive medicine, if you may , and that also , there is no reason in the world why different departments of the same government can't cooperate. And I hope that this is being done . I hope that the Minister - because there was a committee named ; we were working in the direction of having cooperation from different departments, includ­ ing the Department of Education. You have the Department of Education , where you should more in the field of athletic sports than we 're doing now.

So I would hope that the Minister. .and this I think would even prove my point or add weight to my point , where the Minister should have an advisory com­ mittee on fitness and amateur sports, and maybe some of the Ministers, such as the Minister of Education , the Minister of Health, should participate in. I wonder if ••• there is no reason to delay the first few items, but where are all the programs that the Minister referred to in his opening remarks? I would like to get into that now. The first , General Administration , is mostly just administration. Am I right , Mr . Minister? 69. MR .

BANMAN : That's right. MR . DESJARDINS : There's no programs or anything there. MR . BANMAN : It 's the second main appropriation really that ••• Resolution MR . CHAIRMAN: 1. (b) ( 1 )- -pa ss ; 1. (b) (2 )-- pass ; 1. (c) (1) --pass ; l. (c) (2)- -pass ; l.( d) (l)- -pas s. The Member for St . Boniface. MR . DESJARDI NS : Mr . Chairman, on just - an explanation of Research and Planning. Is that strictly the planners within the departmene? What is their role? What are they doing? MR .

BANMAN : They serve the two departments, both co-op development , as well as this particular department, and have been working on such things as the RehFit Centre , things dealing with the Gimli Training Centre , things along that line. MR . DESJARDI NS : What do they do at the RehFit Centre? MR . BANMAN : The Sports Injury Centre ; I'm sorry . MR . DESJARDI NS : Oh. They are mostly the staff of the Minister, and assist him in his responsibil ity in both departments then. MR .

BANMAN : That's right , and also look after questions about different research projects dealing with things that will arise within the department . MR . DESJARDI NS : The Minister then would be well advised to do the same thing as has been done in his salary , and maybe to have the true picture here , pay part of the salary under his other department. I don 't think that Fitness and Amateur Sport should have to pay for research that are doing any part-time work. I think that maybe that should be noted , or has that been done? · MR . BANMAN: Mr .

Chairman , last year we had more or less the same thing come up , because of the two departments. I guess there is no magical way , you either leave it in co-op or put it in here. We did transfer 4 clerical staff that were in the Department of Fitness last year , to the Co-op Development , to sort of level it off a little more, and we feel it 's a pretty good blend . The other thing that I should point out in the next item - no, it 's the item before that.- is the administration and personnel, because both departments are relatively small , they - 1612 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 each don't have their own unit and the administration and personnel unit is housed within the Department of Fitness , Recreation and Sport . MR . DESJARDI NS : Well, Mr . Chairman, I'm glad that the Minister explained , but then that doesn 't present what is being done in this department. If this department, and a number of places, are paying for work being done for the Min­ ister, but in his dual capacity ; that is not a true picture of what is done in Fitness and Amateur Sports.

It is difficult , but maybe it should be paid 50 per­ cent by each department , not all loaded in one department. It 's not presenting the true picture , Mr . Chairman. MR . BANMAN : Well, I gu ess. MR . DESJARDINS : I'm not going to insist on it too long, but I wish that the •• MR . BANMAN: As I mentioned, there is no magical formula to the thing . It 's there, it 's worked fairly well, and we've achieved a certain scale of economy by using the personnel for both of them. • • MR .

DESJARDINS : No , no , I am not suggesting that you change that at all ; so much the better, if you can get that kind of work with the staff. My sugges­ tion is that the cost , the dollars , represent the work that is being done in this department. The same as if you look at the first line, the salary of the Min­ ister , they don't say , well all right, it 's working well, there's two departments, and all the Minister 's pay is shown in there.

There's part of it shown in the other side , on consumer , and I am suggesting that the same thing should be done on the staff of the Minister 's that are working for both sides . I am not suggesting that he should change the working of the department at all . It 's just for the Estimates, for the budget . MR . RANSOM: Yes, it would be breaking down some SMYs maybe to half staff many years and that type of thing, so ••• MR . DESJARDINS : So , you ' re breaking the Minister in half, I am sure you can break other people in half. MR . BANMAN: It could be done. MR . CHAIRMAN : l. (d) . MR .

DESJARDINS : Excuse me, just back on this Research and Planning. I think the previous government was moving towards doing more in Fitness , and we had a man that was brought in as the director of fitness for the province. I under­ stand that the position is no longer there, and I think this is a step backwards. I wonder, is there a full-ti me man that is provided ju st with the fitness of work­ ing with free enterprise?

Has that been done , they would move in towards the free enterprise, to try to get these programs through ••• offer these programs maybe to large firms that might cooperate, maybe give 15 minutes a day to their staff to work out , to get in shape . It seems to me that there is nobody doing that work , certainly not on a full-t ime basis. MR . BANMAN: Within the Estimates, there are two staff man years dedicated to that, and the one position is filled right now by Syd Glenesk. The other one is being bulletined right now, and I understand there is a lot of interest being shown in that particular job.

I think we've got something close to 60 applica­ tions for that particular job . MR . DESJARDI NS : That is only for Fitness and Amateur Sport? MR . BANMAN: It 's strictly dealing with fitness to go work with people like the Manitoba Heart Foundation who put on clinics. There is a movement now to try and get the larger corporations involved in having their own in-house programs - 1613 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 dealing with things such as the Manitoba Marathon and all the other fitness pro­ grams , to try and coordinate and give them a hand. MR . DESJARDI NS : I am very happy that that has not been discontinued. Then my information is probably not correct. MR . CHAIRMAN : Is the Member for St. Boniface finished? The Member for Transcona. MR . WIL SON PARASIU K : Mr . Chairperson, ju st to follow up on what the Member for St .

Boniface was raising , do these people who are trying to encourage, basi­ cally the private sector, to promote physical fitness amongst their employees, is this also being extended to municipal employees? Is it being extended to getting school boards to try and promote physical fitness amongst their staff? Specifi­ cally , what is the government , as an employer of a great number of people, doing to promote physical fitness amongst provincial government civil servants, as a preventative measure more than anything else? MR .

BANMA N: Dealing with the group such as the Manitoba Heart Foundation, as well as the larger companies that are getting interested in promoting fitness, we are working with them to get people interested in pursuing their own leisure activity which is of benefit in a fitness nature to them.

We 've seen things like the Manitoba Marathon, which has really caught on, they expect over 8,0 00 runners this year , and many of the people , as the member will probably have noticed around the building and everywhere, are starting to run now, and corporations are encour­ aging their people to get involved and get actively fit. As I mentioned before , the one position has been place now for a short while. We are advertising for another one, and we hope to become more involved in a number of these areas as time rolls along. MR .

PARASIUK : Yes, again, I would like to ask specifically , what is the government doing as an employer in this respect, and is the Department of Fitness , Recreation and Sport , pursuing this particular dimension with government? The Minister mentioned that you can see an increasing number of people conceivably civil servants, around the build ing, say , jogging.

Is the govern ment providing any facilities whereby civil servants who may want to go out and jog in the morn­ ing, or partic ularly jog at noon, have a place where they can shower, and have a place where they might be able to have a gym suit hung up , you know , a sm all locker room area in the basement, either of this building or the Woodsworth Build­ ing or the Norquay Building.

For example , if you just take the complex right around the Legislative Building , I would hazard a guess that we might have some­ thing in the order of 5,0 00 civil servants working in this particular area , and I think it would be quite easy for the government to set an example as an employe r, possibly working in conjunction with the Department of Public Works , for example, to set aside a bit of space in a basement somewhere for locker facilities and for shower facil ities.

For example , a credit union, the Transcona Credit Union , just opened a facility recently , about a year ago , in Transcona, and I was quite impressed with their efforts in this respect in that in the basement of their new building , they had a little exercise room, and they had a little shower room where people could in fact indulge this, because unless you start providing facilities like that, a lot of this will just be empty rhetoric , especially for people who are working in of­ fices.

I think you need some other facilities like showers , like lockers , unless of course we are going to just rely on , say , the YMCA nearly , or the YMHA. But both of those require the payment of yearly fees of some significance, and I think if you are wanting to induce fitness among people , primarily as a preventative measure in terms of health, then I think the government has to go a bit further and set greater examples than it has to date in this area. I'm wondering if this particular department is doing anything specifically in this respect with the government, as an employer. MR . BANMAN: Mr .

Chairman, as I mentioned before , we are in the process right now of recruiting another person. This is possibly an area that can be - 1614 -

Tuesday , 2 5 March, 1980 explored and possibly will be explored by this addit ional person. The account to date is simply that there have not been any facili ties installed , whether it be for the Members of the Legislature here or for anyone else. A lot of the members here , as well as some of the other areas , have been running at places like the RehFit Centre and have been going to the "Y" , like the member mentioned. Others, on the other hand , do have the problem , if you go out for a jog on a hot day , it makes it pretty hard to come back to work after that without having a shower.

So , all I can say right now is that I take the member 's suggestions and see what we can come up with once we have this full-time person hired on staff to co-ordinate and work together with the corporations as well as one of the largest corporations in Manitoba , namely the government. MR . PARASIUK : I think there have been a couple of private companies that have taken the lead in this respect.

I think that in the Richardson Building , there is a facility there for people to undertake exercise and I think that the government can go a bit further than it has to date in this respect, and I will be asking you questions as we progress on this matter. MR . CHAIRMAN: l. (d) (2) - the Member for Inkster. MR . GREEN: Mr . Chairman , on the subject of fitness - and the Member for St. Boniface touched on it - I am quite concerned with the procedures that are now taking place in the confines of the College of Physicians and Surgeons with res­ pect to Dr. Schwartz. I intend, Mr .

Chairman, to relate it to this department in a meaningful way , if I can . The pretense or the suggestion is that the doctor is being considered solely on his professional merits , and I certainly hope that that is the case and I'm not going to condemn without any evidence, but I do know it to be a fact that there has been and will continue to be a debate in the medical profession with respect to that kind of medicine, which is desi gned to keep people well, as opposed to that type of medicine which is there for the purpose of curing the ill .

Certainly , that is a necessary thing, but the medicine that is designed to treat people who have fallen to some type of sickness has - and I don't think that I will be criticiz ed by the profession for saying this - has resulted in some doing the easy type of thing, the prescription of antibiotics, the pushing of drugs , on the basis that there is an easy solution ; and there has been less em­ phasis on living in such a way that your body does not subject itself to illness.

I think that it is a difficult fight that this man has against him, and I note that there are other doctors throughout the country who do not regard it as a simple issue , and feel that the man is being unjustly dealt with. Now, I don't know whether he is being unjustly dealt with or not , but I do know that there is a debate within the profession on this issue . And I look at the department that we are engaged in, and the Member for St . Boniface touched on it , it is one that is designed for the purpose of encouraging people to stay well. I just wonder, Mr .

Chairman, I know that some of the practitioners will have a very difficult problem engaged in the field of orthodox medicine - I am just wondering whether there is anything that doctors with this particular philosophy, which I think is admirable , can be a feature of this department. Now, I don't think it should be dismissed as something as belonging to the Health Department because we are talking about fitness , and the program that the Member for Transcona is talking about , the program that the Member for St . Boni­ face referred to , deals with the area of fitness .

If fee-for-service medicine is going to be difficult - I'm not saying that peoplle shouldn't usurp their right to engage ••• and suffer sometimes , and again I don 1 t wish to accuse the College of doing anything because , despite what has been crit icism in the paper, I'm not aware . What I am worried about is that there is no suitable avenue , or that avenues are not closed to people who think this way , and there are respected medical authorities who will say that the orthodox medicine is not helping people , it is not designed to do so .

If the area of fitness is one which the Minister has within his jurisdiction, is the use of such practitioners somewhere in his program , either in the research area or in the practical ends that my friend, the Member for Transcona , is refer­ ring to, are there avenues to deal with doctors of this kind? By the way , I real­ ly believe that it 's not new, that the Christian Scientists believed much the same - 1615 -

Tuesday , 25 Mar ch, 1980 thing, and I'm not certain that they were not right, or are not right. Because I think that much of our illnesses cure themselves if we treat ourselves properly , and this is what the doctors are saying . Well, it 's a question of how you live and what you eat , you know, early to bed , early to rise , makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise. Mr. Chairman, I am very very concerned that these people get caught in the establishment system and are unable to operate with it , and I want to know whether there is avenue for the operation of such skilled people within this area? MR .

BANMAN : By way of background , I can maybe relate to the member - and the Member for St . Boniface is knowledgeable on this because he had quite a bit to do with setting up that particular , and providing some of the funds for the Sports Injury Centre. The Sports Inj ury Centre was moved roughly a year ago to the Reh­ F.it Centre, to a new home, there at a site where there is a certain doctor by the name of Wayne Hildahl who is very interested in sports medicine.

One of the things that this particular group that the Research and Planning people are look­ ing at right now, and are pretty excited about , is an injury prevention program which would check out an athlete to try to predetermine whether an injury would be sustained in a certain endeavour, whether it be jogging or running or whatever. The group involved in this is dealing , together with a group of individuals who are on a Sports Medicine Board and the makeup - I believe there is somebody from the Department of Health , and a number of people involved .

This would be more or less our first sort of step , if this materializes into sort of an injury preven­ tion type of program - we call it PreFit , if you want a short word for it - but it would basically deal , in the begin ning, to check it out , to see how it affects the athletes. And this would be carded athle tes, in other words, people who would be treated at the Sports Inj ury Centre normally for injuries that they sustained during an athletic event.

We are looking at that , and the department as well as the group involved are pretty excited with that , because it would be one of the first thrusts in that way , I understand , in Canada. MR . GREEN: Mr . Chairman, I'm pleased that the Minister sees the relation­ ship I'm talking about , and I say that with regard to the Injury Prevention Pro­ gram , what he describe s. I'm glad that the public is doing something in that area . I want to try to relate it to the general fitness program. Mr .

Chairman, I believe our medical bills are going up at very quick rates, and I believe that one of the greatest avenues or possibi lities in reducing our tradiitional medical costs would be in the area of keeping people well. If this department has got a fitness program - and I'm not even suggesting that there be something massive - could they include as part of the fitness program , some pilot projects or other thrusts - could they include it in their research - as to even taking , Mr .

Chair­ man, a sample group of people and have them subject themselves to a program de­ signed to prevent their illness and compare them with a sample that doesn't, and see what happenes to their medical costs and to their physical being. Because there is a great need for cancer research - I'm not certainly going to minimize the kind of things that are sought for in this area - but I suppose that if we could have half the people who now smoke , not smoke , that would do much more for the elimination of cancer than all the cancer research. --( Interjection)-- Pipes apparently are not that bad .

So that's only a small example about how illness could be prevented. I wonder whether the Minister would not consider some of the medical authorities who are oriented in this directi on being part of a fitness program to deal with keeping people well.

You know, there was a friend of mine who argued that our medical insurance scheme was a bad scheme, because it paid a doctor when he cured an ill­ ness , and there should be a scheme whereby a doctor has a certain number of people and he gets paid for every one of them that doesn 't come to see him - that if you get paid for those who don't come to see you , you will find a way of keeping them well. And there are --( Interjection)- - yes, my friend , the Member for St . Boni­ face , says it 's not that farfetched. The Kaiser Clinic Program is a presentative , medical care program.

It 's much more sophisticated than than and can't be dealt with that simply but , nevertheless , there are avenues for looking around . I think the area of fitness , you know, the word "fitness" is one which involves everything - 1616 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 that I'm talking about , and I wonder whether the Minister wouldn 't see whether some research shouldn 't be gone into this, not only from the physical point of view - I note that Mr . Glenesk knew him when he was with the YMCA. I know a lot of physical fitness buffs , and they are all certainly going to provide valuable service; but also I'm talking about from the professional medical standpoint , are there people in this area who could be of service to the department? MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for St . Boniface. MR .

DESJARDI NS : Yes , I think that in answer to the Member for Inkster , that the Minister wouldn 't have too much trouble finding this information. He could start by looking at the RehFit Centre , which has been in operation for less than a year , approximately a year, and you 've had some people that were very bad , bad cases of heart problems - and there's no greater killer , I think, than heart disease. There are two programs there . There's a program as the Minister knows, a program of rehFit and a program of prefit .

And some of these people that could hardly walk around the track are now running 5, 10 , 15 miles ; and it is because of these type of programs. I would hope that the Minister is co-operat ing , is work­ ing - I don't see any sign of that , but the Minister I'm sure that he welcomes the RehFit Centre. I'm pleased that weren't gone too far down the pipe that the previous Minister could not cancel the grant that had been committed to them of $250 ,000 , that made it possible for them to build this RehFit Centre.

And I think it is a very good centre and I would like to see the government work with these people , Research, the Department of Health, and the Department of Fitness and Amateur Sport . Now, I am also concerned - the Minister spoke and it 's clear the Minister wants the same thing that we want , and he wants the same thing that the previous ad­ ministration wanted. But what is the Minister doing , what kind of money is there for those programs . We 've have talked now about a full-t ime, maybe two, people working in Fitness, but that is vague. What is done?

We had announced in 1977 all kinds of programs for fitness , and those were frozen . I'd like to know what is being done. If the Minister tells me that this has come later, fine. If the Minister tells me that this is money from the Lottery , that 's fine also ; and this is why we said that we would ask you to be flexible , Mr . Chairman, that we be allowed to discuss money from the Lottery if they deal with the programs that the Member for Transcona and the Member for Inkster have talked about . On the Sport and Injury Centre, the Minister said that I had something to do with the setting up of that.

Well, I wish it was right , but I can't take any credit for that. The only thing is the Sports Federation - we 're doing it. You ran out of funds , and the program is going to go belly-up and we accept it, to take it over. The intention was and it is now, it has to be transferred to the RehFit Centre. And I would hope that the research that they're doing - there is something else, the Minister is certainly on the right track when he says that they're looking to prevent , to see what can be done, either in the exercise, or warming up , or for the kind of condition to be to play different sports, for instance.

And I would hope, I hope that the Minister just forgot to mention it , and I hope that they're looking at equipment also . That is a very important - and , for instance, a doctor told me years ago that the equipment for a hockey player was no go od , the pads were bad . Because the pads for the defenceman were just prepared or made in order to stop a pu ck, a shot. The worst accident , the worst thing that happened to a defenceman , was when a defenceman fell to his knees, the hard pads were hurting the knees and the knees were being hurt because of the design in the pads. I'm giving an example .

There's different helmets that could be of more of a menace than anything else if they 're not designed properly . I know that this is being done by other people , but I would hope that this would be one phase that this Research Committee will be looking at. I think it is a very important phase . I would . like the Minister to tell me if it 's shown some­ where else and then I will wait , but I would like to know the concrete programs that the Minister has on Fitness and Amateur Sport , such as the ones that were announced and they were frozen by the former Minister.

I would like to know if any of these programs that were through lottery money, and I wonder what is being done . If it 's somewhere else, fine; and if it 's - 1617 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 further down, all right, I accept the Minister on th at. There is nothing from the Lottery coming on this, for those programs? MR . BANMA N: Mr. Chairman, the item is dealt with in 2. (e) , which is Fit­ ness Development, on the next page , just on the other page . That's the figure out of the Estimates, and when we get to it, there are some funds committed out of lotteries with regard to that . MR . DESJARDINS : So , all fitness, we can get back to Fitness Programs on 2. (

e) then. MR . BANMAN: Yes. MR . DESJARDINS : Okay , fine. MR . CHAIRMAN: l. ( d)(2 )- -pass ; l. (e) (l)- -pass. The Member for St . Boniface. MR . DESJARDINS : Mr . Chairman, what is the situation there? I believe that this has been transferred - this responsibility has been transferred to the Sports Administration. Is my information correct? MR . BANMAN: That 's right , Mr . Chairman. There was $287, 400 which was allocated last year with regard to this item. This will be taken over by the Manitoba Sports Federation as they take over their responsibilit ies.

What happen­ ed was that we set up a joint committee right now. The department was responsible for the moneys until the end of this calendar year and after that, they take over and we 111 fund that particular program from their share in the Western Lotteries Manitoba Distributors . MR . DESJARDI NS: So , this is more or less a trade-off with the Sports Federation , and they are responsible to run the program and also to finance the program. So this is a saving to the government, then? MR . BANMAN : Well , yes and no.

Before the $800 ,000 was coming to the government via Advisory Council on Fitness and Amateur Sport and ••• MR . DESJARDINS : There was a line in the • • • The programs that came from Lottery were programs that could change if the lottery revenue ever dried up and certain responsibilities were accepted by the department. If my memory serves me right, this was definitely the department that paid and through the Estimates. It wasn't through lottery money at all. MR . BANMA N: Yes, I agree. MR . DESJARDI NS : So , it is a saving , in effect , to the government.

So when you say that you 're giving a partnership to the Sports Federation, they, in fa ct , they were getting that Sports, not Sports Federation as such, but Sports through the Advisory Committee, we 're getting programs, but they didn 't have to pay it - so this is a saving of the government that hasn't been replaced . MR . CHAIRMAN : 2.( a)(l )- -pass ; 2 ••• 1. ( e)( 1 )- -pass ; L (e) (2)- -pas s. Resolution 69 , MR . DESJARDINS : Excuse me , Mr. Chairman. Is there a program on this one? Are there any programs , or is that strictly administration? MR . BANMAN : Administration. MR . DESJARDINS : All right .

MR . CHAIRMAN : 2. (a) (2) --pass ; 2. (b) (l)- -pass ; 2. (b) (2)- -pass : 2. (c) (1)- -pass. The Member for Transcona. - 1618 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 MR . PARASIUK : program is? Yes, could the Minister describe what this particular MR . BANMAN: Well, Mr . Chairman, with regards to recreation and , I gu ess, this goes back to when - a number of years - we have two offices in northern Mani­ toba , The Pas and Thompson, at which we have a recreational consultant . Any programming that is carried in the north, including the running of these two offices, is done through the Northlands Agreement. In other words, it 's cost­ -shared on a 60-40 basis. It 's been that way for, I understand , a number of years.

Any programming with regards to that secretarial staff and all that is covered under the Northlands Agreement and is cost-shared . MR . 2. (4)- -p ass. CHAIRMAN : 2. (c) (1) --p ass ; 2. (c) {2) --pass ; Oh , pardon me , yes , 2. (c)( 4 )- -p ass. 2. (c ) (3) --p ass ; MR . DESJARDINS : department . 60 percent from Cana da , the rest from the provincial MR . BANMAN: That's right, Mr. Chairman. MR . DESJARD INS: But it 's administered by your department . MR . CHAIRMAN: 2.( d) (l)- -p ass . The Member for St . Boniface. MR . DESJARDINS : Mr . Chairman, this is going to be quite difficult.

I think the committee could not be accused of stalling on this. We 've passed a page already . It would be real helpful if some kind of document was prepared by the Minister , giving us the different programs under Sport Development , Recreation Resources Development and Fitness Development, either of that is financed through his Estimates here or through the lottery. It 's going to be very difficult if we have to write everything down. I wonder if the Minister has prepared anything as was done in • • • MR . BANMAN : I've got a

schedule here, Mr . Chairman. The member will appreciate that a few of the items are projected from lotteries, have not received Order-i n-C ouncil approval , and are feelings of some expenditures that the depart­ ment might want to make , and I'll give him that . But this is not a ••• MR . DESJARDI NS : Well, may I make a suggestion? Can I make a suggestion and I make this in all sincerity , and in the spirit of co-oper ation. Could copies be made , because I'm not the only member of this committee?

Could copies be made and I wonder if we could suggest that the committee rise at this time to expedite matters, and whether we could look at this and maybe finish that tomorrow after­ noon. I'd like to have the information , the information of all the programs in these di fferent fields and , also , the finance here or finance by lottery , with the proviso , of course , that the Minister is saying everything has not received the final approval. We 'll accept that , but that's where the Minister is recommending to Gabinet that these expenses meet these programs.

I wonder if the Minister , in a spirit of co-operat ion, if I could move that the committee rise , and if copies could be immediately , though, so we can have it to look at tomorrow, before we come back to committee. MR. BANMAN: Yes, Mr . Chairman, we don't have any trouble , we can give the - what lottery ones, we 'll have some copies run off. Again , I just reiterate the problem that I do have . There are certain things on here that we are project ing, and certain organizations that have been requesting certain funds from us. MR . DESJARDINS : We can have that , and when will we get the copy on Lotteries? MR .

BANMAN: This is Lotteries. - 1619 -

have • Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 MR . DESJARDINS : Oh, well, when will we have copies , I thought you said you MR . BANMAN: No, they 're making some right now. MR . DESJARDINS : And what about your other programs on the departments? MR . BANMAN: The other programs , we can get that for you tomorrow, too. MR . DESJARD INS : Tomorrow morning , could there be - and then we could go in dif ferent caucus rooms? MR . BANMAN : I think so. MR . DESJARDI NS : Well, with that understanding , I move that committee rise . MR . CHAIRMAN: There 's a motion on the floor that committee rise . All in favour? (A greed ) MR .

BANMAN: We 'll deliver it all tomorrow morning . MR . DESJARDI NS : Ok ay . MR . CHAIRMAN: Committee rise . SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR . CHAIRMAN, Mr . Abe Kovnats (R adisson) . MR . CHAIRMAN: This committee will come to order . We are in the Department of Natural Resources. I would direct the honourable members to Page 78. Resolu­ tion No . 104 , Item 5. Parks (a) (

l) Salaries--p ass ; (2) . The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR . HARVEY BOSTROM : Yes, Mr. Chairman. While we're on this

section I would like to get some more clarification from the Minister regarding the plans he has for the development and maintenance of the resources within our provincial park system. I note he has a brief note heading this up , says, for the healthful enjoyment , cultural , educational and social benefit of the people of Manitoba .

I would ask him what polic ies, if any , he can tell us that he has adopted or is in the process of adopting , the processing of developing for the achievement of that object ive , that is to manage the resources of the parks for all the people of Manitoba and above all to protect and conserve those resources for the future Manitobans . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (S ouris-Kill arney ): First of all , Mr . Chairman, let me distribute a bit of information I have here on the policy guidelines covering Indian Land Entitlement and a list of courses attended by staff .

One question was raised under the personnel

section of Administration and the other under consider­ ation of the secretary to the Indian Land Claims sub-c ommittee. With respect to the policy matter question that the honourable member raises , Mr . Chairman , I'd be happy to take a few minutes to outline the general directive under which the department is operating. And the general statement of policy is, of course , that the provinces provide outdoor recreational opportunities for Manitobans and to preserve unique or representative natural and cultural re­ sources.

And then we have listed a number of general guidelines or steps that should be taken in order to achieve those general objectives. One of those is to establish a parkland classi fication system which identifies the principal purposes of each park and a system which can be readily identified by the pub lic . At the moment we have a number of classif ications of parks that - 1620 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 the classification of which does not readily inform the public about the general intention, the purpose of those parks. Secondly , we want a parkland system that will be developed by designating lands as parklands ensuring that future generations receive them under use patterns that are sustainable without causing irreparable damage to the natural or cultural resources, and one that addresses parkland recreation in a systematic way within the context of the total spectrum of outdoor recreational opportunities available to Manitobans . The term "outdoor recreational opportunities" here includes natur­ al and cultural

interpretational opportunities. And also , by preparation every five years for Cabinet or Provincial Land Use Committee, approval of a master plan for each park land explicitly describing the overall. objectives of the park , and the opportunities and the facili ties which it is to provide . 5. The system should ensure that the public has an opportunity to participate in the planning process and that master plans will reflect government policy direction.

Then more specifically , parklands will respond firstly , to provincial interests for rare , scarce or special forms of recreation ; and secondly , to regional demands and priorities. It will provide high quality recreational opportunities. It will provide opportunities for outdoor recreation in terms of consumptive uses , such as hunting and fishing, and non-consumptive uses, both of which are considered to be equally legitimate.

The system will provide interpretive facilities and programs, and it will accommodate commercial utilization of resources where it does not lessen future recreational use-potential or unduly compromise the primary purpose of the parkland . Mr . Chairman, I think those are fairly explicit policy statements. Before the Committee rose at 4:3 0 this afternoon, the Honourable Member for Rupertsland was alleging that we did not have any policy direction in place, and furthermore, that we had delegated that responsibility to an outside consultant . I would like to point out to the honourable member, Mr .

Chairman , and to the committee, that that allegation is totally without foundation. That in fact what was consulted and was contracted out to consultants, was the task of developing a planning strategy for the parks , essentially a recipe to be followed in achieving the policy direction of government. That was something which was required in order to allow us to proceed with the development of these lands which have not previously been developed. To interpret that report as being a policy document , is simply inaccurate . I have a copy of the report here, Mr .

Chairman , which I would be happy to provide to the Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR . CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR . BOSTROM : Mr . Chairman , I think the Minister has admitted in recent public statements that he still does not have a policy with respect to the de­ velopment of the provincial parks as they relate to the individual provincial parks.

His colleague, the present Minister of Fitness , gave us a commitment more than a year ago , I believe it was in his first term as Minister responsible for that department , that he would have a policy planning process in place that would pro­ vide us with a master plan for the Whiteshell Provincial Park , to use one ex­ ample.

As I understand it , as we are sitting here in the year 1980 , two and a half years after the Progressive Conservative Government has been elected, we still have not received such a plan , so that people who are interested in that park , people who have cottages in that park , people who may have existing busi­ nesses in the park, and the majority of people who use the park for day use or general recreational use , still do not know what this government's intentions are regarding the future development of that park , and it raises concerns in many people 's minds.

I don 't have to remind the Minister that the Jarmoc fiasco , which his colleague dragged us through in the House here regarding the proposal to set up a massive condominium unit in that park , is something which is still not dead as far as - 1621 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 people are concerned , because it has come to our attention that this gentleman is going around to talk to the various local government groups in eastern Manitoba .

I know for a fact that he has been to talk to a number of municipal councils , a number of reeves and councils, and also local government district councils, and at each of those he has made a presentation, making it appear as though his particu­ lar condominium proposal would be something that would be of great economic advan­ tage to the area , without of course explaining that there are serious environmen­ tal considerations and very serious environmental concerns with respect to that project. So , Mr .

Chairman, he is, by not providing full information, eliciting resolu­ tions from these local governments in support of his proposal . I would wonder, Mr . Chairman, why this gentleman would be still doing that two and a half, well, at least two years after we wrestled a commitment out of this government to post­ pone that particular development, and forced them after much debate in this House to back down on that commitment which they made to that individual to allow him to proceed to develop a massive condominium development in that park. Mr.

Chairman , the very fact that this individual is still proceeding, certainly makes us on this side believe that this government is still holding out some hope to that individual , that he wi ll be some day allowed to proceed with his develop­ ment. That, Mr . Chairman, in our opinion is contracy to any kind of proper en­ vironmental considerations regarding the development of the Whiteshell Park . I don't need to remind the Minister that it is very unpopular with the general public and the general users of that park - his particular proposal is a very unpopular one and one which very few people support . Mr .

Chairman , when the Minister says that he has policies, I'm wondering why we are not aware of those po licies and why the community and local government groups in the east side of this province are not aware of those policies, why he has not made it clear to Mr . Jarmoc in no uncertain terms that his development is unac­ ceptable and wi ll be unacceptable under any future policy which his government adopts with respect to the development of the Whiteshell Park. Mr .

Chairman, I think it is unfortunate that it has taken this long for the government to even get to the point where they have what he calls a development planning strategy in place, which is supposed to provide the guideline for a policy development for Manitoba 's provincial parks . I'm wondering , Mr . Chairman , why the Minister , in establishing this policy planning framework and the master planning strategy which he had hired environ­ mental and socioeconomic consultants to do , by the name of Interdisciplinary Systems Limited ••• MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister on a point of order. MR . RANSOM : Yes.

Have we moved to Park Planning , to Item (b)? MR . CHAIRMAN : No, we're still on Salaries. MR. BOSTROM : Mr.

Chairman, I'm asking questions under Administration, because in this case I think it is of some consideration that we should look at the reasons why the Minister found it necessary to contract this kind of work out to outside consultants when he has a group within his own department that he was describing to us yesterday called the Resource Allocation Group , where he has , as he mentioned to us, a senior resource planner; he has the former director of parks ; he has a staff in there that are capable of putting together plans and strategies for his department to look at .

So I would like the Minister to answer that question specifically as to why he chose to contract this work out and not do it within the department with the resources which he has in the- department . MR . RANSOM : In order to get the job done , Mr . Chairman . I don 't seem to be able to communicate to the Honourable Member for Rupertsland what policy means. I just gave a statement of policy which, when I discussed it with the Naturalist Society or with the Wildlif e Federation, and with other people who are interested in this sort of thing, they seemed to understand that as a statement of policy .

I'm sorry if I don't seem to be able to get it across in a fashion that - 1622 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 the Honourable Member for Rupertsland could understand . He seems to be interpret­ ing policy as what I would refer to as a master plan for a park , and that is a procedure which we , some two months ago , in releasing some background information and the report which I just gave to the honourable member, in which we gave a commitment to begin to develop those plans.

I'm not happy that we don't have such plans in place , but I can tell you that we have made more progress in two and a half years getting those plans in place than the previous administration made in eight years , because there was not a single park plan that was approved by the elected people of government and put in place. I think that is what is necessary , Mr .

Chairman , and that the statement of general policy which I outlined to the committee, provides the general direction within which individual master plans will be developed , and the public will have an opportunity then to have an input into the development of those plans , the preliminary ones, which will have been prepared according to those general guidelines. With respect to his specifics concerning Mr . Jarmoc, I do not control Mr . Jarmoc 's activities . If he chooses to go and promote a project with the local municipal councils, that is his business .

I don't plan to interfere with propo­ sals or statements which he may wish to promote with municipal councils. But I have said that there will not be such developments take place within the White­ shell, or within any other park , until such time as there is an approved master plan developed for those parks . MR . BOSTROM : Well , Mr . Chairman, the Minister is certainly confused when he claims that there were no plans in place when his government took office, because there certainly was a plan for the specific park that we' re discussing , and that is the Whiteshell Provincial Park .

And that plan I know of personally because the department I was responsible for had a hand in assessing it , in dis­ cussing it w ith the park planners of the day , and the resource people , the re­ sources personnel in our department, had the opportunity to put in certain amend­ ments to it in terms of ••• MR . CHAIRMAN: To the honourable member , Park Planning is under

section (b) . I have allowed debate on it under Administration , but if you would care to get to administration rather than just park planning, and we can discuss it under item (b) . Unless you discuss it now, then it won't be allowed under (b) . It would be repetitive. The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR . BOSTROM: Well, Mr. Chairman, there is such overlapping matters here. I certainly don't intend to repeat under Park Planning what I say here under Administration, but certainly the administration of this

section is concerned with park planning , it 's concerned with program management, it 's concerned with park maintenance, and so on, so there's aspects of those things which I would consider dealing with here, although there may be some more specific questions as we come to each one of those. In this case , we 're talking about developing master plans ; and in this case , I'm not sure what the title was used at that time, but there was a plan put together by the department responsible for parks .

It was, as I said , one which had input from the various other departments that were concerned , and it did have the concurrence, I believe, of the groups that were interested in that particular park . And in fact that plan, to my recollection , came to Cabinet and was approved by Cabin et . And in any case , The Parks Land Act states that it is not necessary for such a plan to come to Cabinet , because the Minister of the department can approve a park plan under The Provincial Parks Act .

So that I know for a fact that the Minister of that department at that time had approved that plan , and I believe he also brought it to Cabinet for app roval as a matter of courtesy to his Cabinet colleagues. The question I was asking the Minister , I think he answered partly in that why he had to contract the work out for the developing of the planning strategy to outside planners. His very short answer was to get the job done. Well , Mr.

Chairman, I suggest he could have got that job done at a much less cost if he had used the existing staff within his department; a staff, I might add , that were involved in developing plans like this under our administration, and in fact had a - 1623 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 plan for the Whiteshell Park , which could have been simply updated through bring­ ing it to public attention and having public hearings , public input , into that plan in order for it to probably be more in tune with the feelings of people at this time, that it could have been done by existing staff within his department, and he would have had that entire portion of work done by now. Instead , all we have in front of us is a planning strategy. We still do not have a plan for that park .

And I would like to ask the Minister further, to why he chose outside planners ; how did he come to choose this particular group of planners , which he contracted the work to? Was there a competition for the selection of this planning group? And further to that, what was the cost to the government of doing this study? MR . RANSOM: There were proposals called for, Mr. Chairman, and this group was selected. I believe that the cost figure was approximately $22 ,000 , plus or minus a bit .

I would be quite grateful to the Honourable Member for Rupertsland if he could table a copy of the master plan that had received approval from pre­ vious Minister or from Cabinet. I· would be most interested in seeing such a document. MR . CHAIRMAN : (1) --pass. The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR . BOSTROM : We ll, I assure the Minister there is such a document and it 's in the files of his department, if he would simply ask his officials. I brought it to the attention of this government two years ago when we were discussing this item in the Esti mates at that time .

And I received app roximately the same kind of stonewalling from the former Minister as we received from this Minister , on that issue . I would like to know, further, if the Minister intends to use outside consult­ ants for the follow-up work that is required in developing individual master plans for the Whiteshell Park and/or other parks within the system. I think this is a question of administration , Mr . Chairman. Does he intend, through the Parks Branch of his department, to hire outside consultants for this work? Or will he use existing staff within his department for that purpose? MR .

RANSOM: It is my intention to primarily use in-House staff, Mr. Chair­ man , but if there is a necessity to get some input in an area of expertise that is not available within the department , and is not required on an ongoing basis, then it would make sense to go out to get it. If I might just return for a moment to the question of the master plan , I have to advise you , Mr . Chairman , that I don't seem to be able to find such a plan.

But I would assume that , had one been passed and approv ed , that it would have been a public document and would have been fairly widely distributed to make the public aware of what the government 's policy is. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find one , and no one has come forward with one yet . I certainly would appreciate it if the Member for Rupertsland could provide one. MR . BOSTROM : Mr .

Chairman, I attended a meeting at the time that the Jarmoc issue was being discussed in the Legislature , a meeting that was held at the Health Sciences Centre and which was attended by some 500 people , all of whom were concerned about that proposed development in the Whiteshell. At that meet­ ing , representatives from the Naturalist Society and other groups in fact referred to the plan that I am referring to, and recommended it to the government in a resolution that was passed unanimously with the exception of one individual at that meeting that night.

A resolution was passed unanimously suggesting to the government that they use that particular plan as the basis for a future plan for the park. In other wor ds, take that plan, update it and make it into a proper plan for the park, with public input into the process. I was aware of the document. A wide number of people who were present at that meeting were aware of that document . So , Mr . Chairman, why is the Minister not aware of the document? I believe the former Minister of the department admitted such a document existed , and in fact if we go through Hansard , we will see that he - 1624 -

Tuesday , 25 March , 1980 did admit such a document existed. His argument was different than this Min­ ister• s. His argument was simply that the document had not been passed by Cabi­ net; the plan had not been approved by Cabinet. I pointed out to him at the time, as I point out to this Minister , it 's not necessary for that kind of a plan to be approved by Cabinet. The Minister has that authority under the Act . But I'm quite sure that even that part of it was completed as well , and it was also passed by Cabinet.

In any case , that documents certainly exists , and I recommend it to the Min­ ister , which hopefully would save him time and money in developing a new master plan for the Whiteshell Park. If I can find it in any of my files, I certainly will make it available to the Minister . Mr . Chairman, I take some issue with the Minister 's using of outside planners for developing park plans , particularly when he has people within his own depart­ ment.

I believe the Minister is indicating a certain policy change in terms of the direction his government is going , an implicit policy change , since the take­ over of the Progressive Conservative administration. One reason I have for think­ ing that , Mr . Chairman , is that he has replaced the Director of Parks with a new Director of Parks . He has taken the old director and transferred that person into the resource allocation unit which we were discussing in his Estimates.- I believe that 's the name 0f it , Resource Allocation - and hired a new Director of Parks .

I would ask the Minister if it is simply a coincidence that the new Director of Parks in Manitoba was recently a partner in the firm of Interdiscipl inary Systems Limited , which is the same firm that completed the study for his department for the master planning strategy which we are discussing here today . I would ask the Minister further , in the selection of this individual for the position , was there a competition involved and if not , why not? MR . RANSOM : Yes, indeed there was a competition , Mr . Chairman. I believe we advertised nationally , seeking a new Director of Parks.

The individual in question did not come from the group of applicants that applied for that job as a result of the national advertising campaign , but it subsequently came to our attention that he was interested in the position and employment with the govern­ ment, and our interviews , etc., he satisfied us that kind of person that we were looking for and had the management experience that we thought was necessary for this job. The report that we had provided was, of course - that contract was let considerably in advance of that event taking place, in terms of hiring a director .

I must go back once again to the plan, Mr . Chairman, that the honourable member refers to because first of all , I believe he said to us that it was a plan that consisted of government policy direction, and that it had been approved by the Minister , at least , if not by Cabinet . Subsequently , and I think the record will show, he said that it should have been upgraded into a proper plan, which I can only assume means that it was an improper plan at the time that it was prepared.

If, in fact there was policy , was a plan approved by the Minister , I would assume that that would be a public document and that we would have no difficulty in find­ ing it . Now, what is available for many of the parks is background work that has been carried out by the planners .

They have made recommendations concerning zoning and possible uses that they saw as bein g appropriate or inappropriate within par ks , but not a statement of government policy as such to guide the planners in the work that they were doing , let alone one final plan being approved and having a Min­ ister 's signature on it as saying this is the government-approved plan. MR . CHAIRMAN: 1. --p ass. The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR . BOSTROM : We ll, Mr .

Chairman , I was simply being kind to the government in saying that they could have used the existing plan that was in place and , in quotation marks , I think I should have said they could have turned it into a proper plan since they seem to not even want to recognize or admit its existence, never mind the fact that it was indeed a proper plan, and one that was developed through consultation with the various departments that were concerned with re­ source development , and had very carefully mapped out the areas within the park that were suitable for their various uses. It was a very detailed document .

I'm surprised that the Minister has , to date , not been able to find it. It probably - 162 5 -

TUesday , 25 March, 198 0 went the same place that most of the information regarding the Jarmoc incident went. When we asked for an Order for Return, there didn't seem to be very much information available . The Minister 's department has been practising file burn­ ing, or book burning , or whatever they do to destroy such files - shredding may­ be . It possibly could be no surprise that there are certain files that are miss­ ing. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister on a point of order. MR .

RANSOM : Is the honourable member saying that we did not provide com­ plete information to the House on the Order for Return? MR . BOSTROM : I am sa ying , Mr . Chairman, that there was very little infor­ mation provided , and we believe that there was significant addit ional correspond­ ence which passed back and forth between the individuals concerned and the govern­ ment, which was not provided , yes , I believe that. MR . CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Minister on a point of order • . MR . RANSOM: Mr . Chairman, I heard reference to burning of documents.

Is the honourable member suggesting that there were documents burned , destroyed , by this government? MR . BOSTROM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am only suggesting that there is cer­ tain information that is missing , and this park planned for this Whiteshell is one that the Minister apparently can not locate. So somehow that document has disappeared . MR . RANSOM: Mr . Chairman, on a point of order, the point of order had nothing to do with the plan .

The point of order had to do with what seemed to me to be an allegation that we had not filed complete Orders for Return, that we had in fact burned or destroyed documents. I would like the honourable gentleman to either make that challenge and to make it stand up, or withdraw it . MR . BOSTROM : Mr . Chairman , what we have here is a difference of opinion as to what information was supplied . I simply stated that I do not believe all of the information was supplied. MR . CHAIRMAN: Order please . I have been listening very carefully to the debate , and I don 't think that I can rule it as a difference of opinion.

It ap­ peared to be stating facts that were known , and I would hope that the honourable member could produce some documentation as to those statement of facts, or with­ draw his remarks . MR . BOSTROM : Mr . Chairman, there is one definite fact that I can state , and that is the plan for the Whiteshell Park did exist . It was a plan developed by the department and it did exist . And if it 's missing now, then something happened to it . MR . CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Honourable Minister on a point of order. MR .

RANSOM : The point of order was with reference to materials to do with the Jarmoc case , was what the honourable gentleman was referring to. He has alleged that we filed incom plete Orders of Return and that we burned or destroyed papers . That is a very serious allegation, and I think that the honourable gentleman should either be prepared to substantiate it or withdraw it. MR . BOSTROM : Well, Mr. Chairman ••• MR . CHAIRMAN : Welcome. To the honourable member, I would agreed with the Honourable Minister in regard to the statement of facts that were attributed to the Honourable Member for Rupertsland . - 1626 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 MR . BOSTROM : Well, Mr . Chairman, the same point of order. I do not believe that I said the government burned files or shredded documents. I simply said that there were certain information that does not seem to be availab le, and I did not know what happened to it . That is what I believe I said . MR . CHAIRMAN: Before I make a complete ruling on it, I would have to have another review of Hansard to make sure whether , in fact , the remarks were made, and in what manner. The Honourable Minister . MR . RANSOM : I was going to suggest, Mr .

Chairman, that we review the record , and if the record in fact says that, then I trust the honourable member will withdraw. MR . CHAIRMAN: A ruling on the point of order after I have had a chance to look at Hansard on those remarks . The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR . J. R. (B UD ) BOYCE: To the same point of order , Mr . Chairman , I am glad to hear that you are going to review what was said , because in listening to the debate, I heard the member say , "I believe" in his remarks . And it would be a sorry state of affairs if a member in this House couldn 't stand and say I be­ lieve.

He may be in error , but I think the records will show that he said , "I believe that it was incomplete" and then went on to suggest why it may have been incomplete. MR . CHAIRMAN: To the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre, if that was the remarks made by the honourable member, I would be inclined to agree with you, but I will not be able to make a ruling ; my memory isn't that good and I would have to have a look at Hansard before I was able to make a complete ruling on that. (1) --pass . The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR . BOSTROM : We ll, Mr .

Chairman, I was, before being distracted , comment­ ing on the Minister 's handling of the department with respect to parks and I believe that, at the risk of being accused again of saying the wrong thing, I believe the Minister stated that there was a competition for this position, and that after looking through the interviews , or not interviews but the applications of people who applied for the position of director of provincial parks , all of those applications were thrown out , and the Minister made an appointment of the incumbent, who coincidentally was a partner in the firm of Interdisc iplinary Systems , which is the same firm that did the study for the Minister 's department.

And I would ask the Minister why he did not re-open the competition, since the incumbent did not apply in the first instance when the position was advertised. Why did the Minister not re-open the competition and allow other people to apply , as well as the incumbent , who was appointed without further interviews? MR . RANSOM: The competition was on a national basis. It was advertised nationally , and it did draw some applications , and it was fairly widely known that the position was open because there was a parks conference held in Winnipeg at the time that the competition was open.

And as he , I am sure will acknowledge, that the app ointment of senior officers such as a director, are by Order-in -Counc il, and are not the regular type of Civil Service appointment , and that in fact , no competition. • • MR . BOYCE: I wonder if we could have order . I can't hear the remarks the Minister is. • • MR . CHAIRMAN : Order please . The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre on a point of order. MR . BOYCE : Yes , could we have some order in the House? I can't hear a remark that the Minister has made . - 1627 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 MR. CHAIRMAN: I've got to agree with the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre . Could we have some order please? We have people . I'm trying to control this committee, but the recording apparatus is not picking up. I see that the gentleman who is in charge of the recording apparatus is having great diffi­ culty trying to di fferentiate between who is speaking , and I would ask the honour­ able members to please give a little bit of consideration to the honourable member who is standing at his place and speaking , and we will be able to carry on if we will be given that consideration.

The Honourable Minister . Excuse me ; the Honourable Member for Virden. MR . MORRIS McGREGOR : Mr . Chairman , it was moved that the question be put on Resolution 80 , the Ayes and Nays were called for, and a count-out asked for. MR . CHAIRMAN : On Resolution 80? MR . McGREGOR : Yes. MR . CHAIRMAN: You've heard the motion. All those in favour , stand . Ayes and Nays only? Excuse me , I'll retract that last statement. the members. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY please Call in MR . CHAIRMAN , Abe Kovnats (R adisson) : The motion before the House is that the question be put on Resolution No . 80.

A COUNTED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas 24 ; Nays 20. MR . CHAIRMAN: I declare the motion carried . The Honourable Member for Em erson. MR . ALBERT DRIED GER : Mr . Chairman, since the resolutions in the Estimates of the Minister of Highways have all individually been passed , would that conclude the Estimates of the Minister of Highways? MR . CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Inkster on a point of order. MR . GREEN: Yes, Mr . Chairman. There has been a motion passed that. the question be put . There's been no question put .

There's been no resolution passed . --( Interjection)-- No , not in here. You 've got to go back. You go back to the other room. MR . McGREGOR: Mr . Chairman, on the MR . CHAIRMAN: Is this on the point of order? MR . McGREGOR : Yes, I believe so. As I understand it , this afternoon that Resolution was read into the book, at 4: 15 this afternoon. --( Interjection )- - MR . CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Kildonan on a point of order. MR . PETER FOX : Possibly I can help you , Mr . Chairman. There was a motion made - we were on Resolution 80 - that the previous quest ion be put .

That motion asked to have a Standing Vote . We have now taken that Standing Vote in respect to the previous question. The motion is still be fore us and we can have the vote on it here, if you like, to expedite matters for you . But it has to have a vote of this Supply Committee. QUESTION put , MOTION carried . - 1628 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 MR . CHAIRMAN: To the honourable members , I guess that completes the De­ partment of Highways and Transportation and I will make an announcement if some­ body will advise me what the next department is that 's going to start in the other Committee room. -- ( Interjection )- - Ok ay , so the announcement is that the Depart­ ment of Fitness and Amateur Sports will commence in Room 254 immediately. SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES (c ont.) MR . CHAIRMAN: This Committee is back in order. Item under discussion is (a) (

l) Salaries-- pass; (2) . - the Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR . BOSTROM : Mr . Chairman, when the committee broke up , or was interrupted I should say , we were discussing the appointment of a Director of Parks and the way in which it was handled by the Minister. I believe he said , and I stand to be corrected , that there was a competition for the position.

And then I heard him say that there was an adverti sement for the position and that subsequent to that all of the applications were disregarded and the Minister and Cabinet decided to appoint the incumbent to the position , as the new Director of Parks . I wonder if the Minister could confirm that that is the way in which the events took place and if he could confirm or in fact if he could tell us why he did not have another competition, which would allow a degree of fairness into the process and allow perhaps other qualified people to apply for the position.

I would also ask him if the former incumbent of the position, the former Director of Parks , if he was allowed the opportunity of applying for the position. MR . RANSOM : Mr . Chairman , perhaps the honourable member didn 't hear earl­ ier when I outlined what had happened in terms of the position being advertised nationally and there being a Parks Conference held here in the city at the time that the competition was open. It was widely known that the position was in fact open. I believe that some interviews were held.

It was decided that we did not have a suitable applicant for the job and through what could be termed as a direct search the Cabinet chose to appoint Mr . Derek Doyle as Director of Parks, and that as an Order-in-C ouncil appointment. And of course it would not have been neces­ sary or required to hold any type of competition to fill those positions which are made by Order-in -Counc il. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR . BOSTROM : We ll , Mr . Chairman , at least it 's on the record that the government is operating in this fashion in filling posit ions.

I would point out to the Minister and to the House that this is an approach which the First Minister continues to derate and criticize every opportunity that he has, and that is the appointment directly of people who may , as a result of their association with members of the government , or whoever in the government, be accused of having been appointed for other reasons than merit. I don't the incumbent here, but certainly the fact that an appointment was made without competition. MR . CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Minister on a point of order. MR .

RANSOM : The honourable member is alleging that the appointment was made because of some connection with people in government. I suggest that he should withdraw that remark. MR . CHAIRMAN: I was listening to the debate. The inference might have been there, but I don 't think the actual accusation was there. The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR . BOSTROM : Well , Mr . Chairman, all I'm saying is, that when appointments are made in this way , the suspicion can be raised and the suspicion can be there - 1629 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 in the minds of the public , in the minds of opposition members , as to why a parti­ cular person was chosen when there is no obvious open competition for the posi­ tion. I remember the press, I believe , commenting on this, and questioning the Minister on this at the time of the appointment , and I think the Minister had some difficulty at that time explaining , as he's having difficulty explaining now, how they came about to select a particular individual who hadn 't even applied for the position. So , Mr .

Chairman, there have been some recruitment process that cer­ tainly is not following the Civi l Service Commission route in terms of a recruit­ ment selection and appointment method that takes into account a merit principle , and looks at various individuals before making an appointment. So , Mr . Chairman, I just throw that out as being something worth noting, when one considers the public attitude and much-proc laimed attitude of the First Min­ ister towards this kind of process.

I hope the Honourable Minister will remind the First Minister of his statements in the House regarding the hiring of indivi­ duals , because the same kind of appo intment process used by the New Democratic government was berated by the First Minister ; and individuals appointed in a similar fashion - which I don't say is a wrong way of doing it because the Cabinet and the Minister has the authority to appoint individuals to positions like th is. But you can't have it both ways , Mr . Chairman.

You can't accuse one government of doing something wrong in following that process , and then follow that process yourself and hope to be above suspicion. So , Mr . Chairman, I just remind this Minister and this government of what may be considered a very hypocritical attitude on their part , a very hypocritical public attitude on the part of their First Minister, when he gets up in this House and , as the Honourable Member for Inkster just said , talks about rat-infested nests, etc. , etc., the fact that people are - anybody who is hired in this fashion by the New Democratic Party government , Mr .

Chairman, was accused of being a New Democrat and a New Democratic Party supporter. In this case , Mr . Chairman , the Minister has admitted that the individual involved has been almost handpicked , hand-selected by some reference to himself and certainly , Mr . Chairman , we would be naive to think that there was not some recommendation by people that are close to the Minister, who would say that this particular individual is qualified for the position and he has the right attitude towards the policies that we want to pursue . So , Mr.

Chairman, I would just say that if these people and this government, Progressive Conservative government , are going to follow that policy of selection, and recruitment, and appointment , let not the kettle be calling the pot black or whatever it 's called . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR . SAM USKIW : Mr . Chairman, perhaps the Minister would want to elaborate on the abili ties or whatever of the person appointed , to satisfy members in this House that the appointment was based on some very rational reasoning on his part . You know, I note that the man is an engineer.

I don 't know what that has to do with parks development in Manitoba or parks administration. So , perhaps the Min­ ister has information that he might want to provide for the benefit of members on this si de . MR . RANSOM: Mr . Chairman, I'd be happy to provide the honourable members with a detailed background of the person involved . He is an extremely well quali­ fied person in the field of multi-disciplin ary resource studies and environmental studies , management of personnel and management of studies . I'd be happy to provide most of the background . MR . CHAIRMAN: (1) --pass ; (2) --pass ; (a)-- pass . (

b) Park Planning ,

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Minister . MR . RANSOM : Mr . Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: We have been following a routine - to the Honourable Member for St . George - where the Minister will introduce each item as it comes up . The Honourable Minister. - 1630 -

Tuesday , 25 March, 1980 HR . RANSOM : •• to say , Hr . Chairman , that there are 31.05 staff man years in the Estimates before us, and that's the same number as were approved in 1979- 80 , and I believe that we have in fact been discussing the Park Planning for the last while . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St . George. MR . URUS KI : Mr . Chairman , I regret I didn't catch your eye as you were finishing the work on the Administration

section and going into the Planning. I wanted to understand the process that the department went through in the selection of the Director of Parks , when they advertised the position nationally , as the Minister had indicated . I presume that there was, in the advertising of the position that interested applicants apply , that there was in fact a bulletin with a competition number and the like. Was that competition ever held , Mr . Chairman?

Could the Minister indicate whether a competition was actually held , or were the applicants that did apply , were they notified that no longer was the government continuing this application, or what procedure was followed? MR . RANSOM : With respect to the first part of the question, Mr . Chairman, yes , individual people were br