LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA Thursday, 19 March, 1981 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Bir tle­ Russell): Presenting Petitions ... Read ing and Rec eiving Pe titions ... Presenting Repor ts by Standing and Special Committees Min isterial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion ... Introduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: At this time I would like to introduce 25 students of Grade 5 standing from the Robert Smith School, under the direction of Mr. Cartlidge.

This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. On behalf of all the honourable mem bers, we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, a qu estion to the Minis ter of Educa tion.

Can the Minister of Educa tion confirm that a letter was mailed from his department by the Assistant Deputy Min ister of Education on March 11 of this year which reads in part: "P lease note that the information provided above is in respect of only the special needs element of the operating support component. Additional information regarding Immigrant Children Language Support, Vocational Equipment Support is expected to be available soon".

Could the Min ister inde ed acknowledge that all the information that is requi red for school division boards to complete their budgeting, their assessing of the levy that is required pertaining to school financing has not yet been made available to the school divisions in the Province of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Education. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, quite correctly there are some refinements that have not been worked out to this point, but certainly school boards have a very good indication of the amount of revenues that will accrue to them in the coming year. MR.

PAWLE V: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister advise when the additional information as referred to in the letter by the Assistant Deputy Min ister of Education, will be made available to the school divisions so they can indeed finali ze with precision, their estimates of requirement for the forthcoming year? MR. COSENS: Soon, Mr. Speaker, very soon. MR. PAWLEV: Then, Mr. Speaker, further to the Min ister.

Can the Min ister advise why this Education 1875 Support Program was announced in January of this year when all the information was not then available to be provided to school divisions, in order that school divisions could do the necessary budgeting, so they could provide public information, so they would be able to assess the needs withi n their particular school division for the forthcoming year, when we find that still in March the Min ister and his department have not provided to the school divisions the information that is necessary?

Why was it announced in January while we still have in March, a lack of information needed? MR. COSENS: Mr. Sp eaker, the honourable member refers to some very minor portions of the program as far as total dollars are concerned, and certainly there have been indicators provided to school boards as to the amount they will receive. What hasn't been completed to this point of course, are the regula tions that would go vern these particular amounts. This is what in fact the honourable member is alluding to. Certainly I don't think it has caused any great inconvenience. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, would the Min ister further acknowledge that there is still no uniform budgeting or accounting procedure in place within his department pertaining to this program? MR. COSENS: That's quite correct, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for ln kster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to di rect a qu estion to the Honourable Minis ter of Health. Can the Min ister of Health advise whether the cit izens of Mani toba who happen to li ve in Shamattawa are now secure with regard to the provision of health services and educational services which appeared to be disrupted some weeks ago? HON.

L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): I can't confirm that in any definite way, Mr. Speaker, but we have been in touch with Federal Medical Services since the difficulties arose at Shamattawa and they have assured us that they would be meeting the needs and requirements of the area. I can't offer any more confirmation at this point on that subject but I' 11 certainly check it. MR. GREEN: Is the Min ister of Health able to say what is the current situation with regard to those ci tizens of Mani toba who happen to li ve in Shamattawa?

Do they now have staff available to meet educat ional and health service needs such as are being provided to other citizens of our province? MR. SHERMAN: No, Mr. Speaker, I don't think I have current information that can permit me to give the honourable member that assurance. All I have is the assurance from National Health and Welfare and Federal Medical Services, that they are addressing the problem and that they akno wledge their responsibility to provide those services. I know that

Thu rsday, 19 March, 1981 some medical and nursin g servic es are being provided on an itinerant basis from neighbouring communities. I don't think permanent services have been re-established to this point. MR.

GREEN: I wonder whether the Minis ter of Health would consider it of benefit to the citi zens of Ma nito ba who reside in Shamatta wa, or other similarly potentially problem communities; whether it is possible to have some contingency plan negotiated with the Federal Go vern ment, whereby we as Manitoba legislators, can rest assured that the services would be supplied if there is a disruption, and that the Federal Government would meet its fiscal responsibility for paying for the costs, so that we are not in a position of having one group in our province totally at the whims of whether or not the Federal Government is able to provide the service.

MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have located my latest information on the Shamattawa situation and I would just like to respond to the Member for Inkster by advising him that Medical Services and Health and Welfare Canada do confirm that they're serving the Shamattawa community with nursing services on an iti nerant basis, and the same applies to physicians services, and they intend to continue this until the problem is resolved. They say that they're negotiating with the Chief and Council to resolve the problem and when it's resolved, the nurses will be returned on a permanent basis.

In answer to his last question, Mr. Speaker, I would have to say that at this juncture I don't feel that it would be correct for the province to take dir ect action, pending a further report from Federal Medica l Services, as to the outcome of their discussions with the Chief and Coun cil. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. If I may interrupt at this time, we have 23 students of Grade 6 standing from Chancellor School, under the Direction of Miss Maria lpsics. This school is in the constituency of the Ho nour able Mini ster of He alth.

On behalf of all honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon as well. ORAL QUES TIONS (Cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minis ter of the Environment.

I would ask him if he has received a report from his staff that the citi zens from Manitoba who were at the meeting held last night in Kenora, to discuss the proposed mine mill development on Hi gh Lake which flows into Shoal Lake, which is the water supply for the City of Win nipeg, if he is inf ormed that the citizens who were at the meeting are still concerned and certainly were not sure from the information provided at the meeting that the min e operation would include Winnip eg's water supply.

I would ask the Mi nister also in view of his statements yesterday, if he is also aware that the Ontario Government informed the meeting that this meeting was one of the final steps in the approval 1876 process and that they expected to approve this mining application within a couple of weeks. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nis ter of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. GARY FILMON (River Heights): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have received a report from my staff members who were in attendance. As well we are in possession of several copies of the consulting engin eering report on the proposal.

We also are aware that the Ontario Mi nistry of the Environment spokesman in attendance said that his government would not approve the proposal until all the concerns have been dealt with. I also have been informed that tentatively they have suggested two weeks for a response time for our go ver nment, outlining our concerns on the matter.

I have asked our Deputy Mi nister, in view of the fact that the current Mi nister of the Environment was not seeking re-elec tion in today's Ontario election and in view of the fact that there may be a time lag between the appointment of a new Minister, I have asked my Deputy to wire his counterpart, the Deputy Minis ter of the Environment in Ontario, asking that they not imp ose any such time limit as two weeks but rather they give us sufficient time, whatever that may be, to respond fully to the proposal, after we have had a chance to analyze compl etely the consulting report and all the information which was garner ed at last evening's meeting.

MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Memb er for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Min ister, in view of his statements yesterday at the Legislature, why the Mini ster failed to request information on the proposed mine mill operation from the Ontario Government and the mining company, as he assured us he would do approximately a week ago during his Estimates, I must point out to him tha t this information was available to his department and to himself through the Government of Ontario and it was advertis ed in the Press that this information was available. MR. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I'm informed that this report was not available to our staff until yesterday; that in response to our expression of concern in the proposal that we were obviously informed of the meeting, invited to attend and provided with the information at last evening's meeting. In fact the repres entativ es of the Ontario Min istry of the Environment ind icated that it was their problem, that we were not able to get all the full information until yesterday, and that they are more than willing . to co­ operate with us in doing whatever is necessary to allow us to review and respond to this proposal. MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Memb er for Rupertsland with a final supplementary. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, it appears that the Mi ni ster is relying very heavily on the Ont ario government in this respect and I would ask the Mi nister if he is satisfied that he can depend on the Ontario government to protect the water quality for

Thursday, 19 March, 1981 the citizens of Winnipeg, and I ask this when in view of the fact that we already know that the Ontario government allo wed the disastrous pollution of the English Wabigoon water system where people as well as fish and wildlife are suffering from the disastrous results of their lack of concern for the environment? MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I have to point out to the member that this prop osed develo pment is taking place in the Province of Ontario and so, obviously, I am not in a position to impose any constraints on the Province of Ontario or anybody else there.

We are very concerned about the possible ill effects and want to be assured that there will be no negative effects for the people of Winn ipeg and the people of Manitoba as a result of this development and we are doing everything possible to ensure that, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mem ber for Burrows. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Honourable Min ister of Education to assist us in dealing with the Interim Supply.

Could the Min ister indic ate to us whether the $70 million of additional money, to which he made reference in his January announcement, is contained within the Estimates of his department which have been tabled in the House, and if they are, where? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, by coincidence, I've just being glancing at the incredible arithmetic of the Member for Burrows in his remarks on March 17 and I must say to him that in his addition he leaves out about $1 48 million in his computation. If he can't find 70 million, he can 't even find 148 million in his figures, Mr. Speaker.

But, yes, in answer to his quest ion, Mr. Sp eaker, the 70 million is in my Est imates and the taxpayers of Manitoba are benefiting from that 70 million. MR. HANUSCHAK: A supplementa ry, Mr. Speaker. Would the Min ister be good enough to indi cate under what appropriation in his Estimates the $70 million can be found? MR. COSENS: The log ical pl ace of cour se to discuss this, Mr. Speaker, is in my Estimates but it is under the head ing "School Grants and other Supp ort". MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Speaker, a further supple mentary to the Hono urable Min ister of Education and I pose this question to him with the hope of giving him sufficient notice before we deal with the Estimates of his department. Would the Minis ter be good enough to provide the House with a school division by school division breakdown of all grants paid by the Provincial Government to each school division for the year 19 80, and the anticipated grants to be paid on a school division by school division basis, of the various categories of grants proposed for 19 81. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

May I suggest to the honourable member that detailed information of that nature could best be provided by an Order for Return. 1877 The Honourable Min ister of Energy. HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege. I'm referring to an

article in the Winnip eg Sun of Monday, March 16 th, which I am quoted directly as making two statements that I think ought to be corrected. One, it refers to the Mandan Line to Nebraska that has been under some negotiation between Man itoba Hyd ro and the Nebraska Public Power District, states that because of ob jections by environmental groups , the installation of the so-called Mandan Line would be delayed. Mr. Speaker, I've never suggested that the Mandan Line is being dela yed by objections from environmentalists. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, -(l nterjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order pl ease.

The Honourable Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. PAWLEV: Mr. Speaker, I think we need your gu idance in respect to this, because on various occa sions when we have brought up matters pertaining to correcting newspaper accounts you have ruled, and I think correctly on those occasions, that they were not points of privilege. In any event, they should be raised at the first available opportunity. MR. SPEAKER: Before I can rule on any point of privilege, I must hear the point that is being put forward by the honourable member. (ln terjection)- The Honourable Min ister of Energy. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, the point MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Questions of privilege take precedence over points of order. The Honourable Min ister of Energy. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, the second direct quote, it's a direct quote in quotation marks, "The Mandan Project means we build plants on the Nelson River about two years sooner". Quite the opposite, Mr. Speaker, was said. So it's not only in error, it's out by some 18 0 degrees from the facts, and I think it's too important to not be corrected at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mem ber for Kildonan on a point of order. MR. PETER FOX: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, my point of order is that the question period should not lose time because of a matter of privilege. Secondly, I'd like to point out to you, Sir, that if a matter of privilege is not a matter of privilege and has been stated during a particular period of time, a point of order should take precedence over a matter of privilege, to point out that it isn't a matter of privilege. (I nterjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please.

Points of privilege ought rarely to occur in the Chamber, and when they are raised the y should be accompanied by a substantive motion of some type, for the House to take action. Therefore I would have to rule, since the honourable member did not bring forward a substantive motion, I would have to rule the point of privilege out of order.

Thursday, 19 March, 1981 The Honourable Member for Church ill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Mi nister of the Environment and follows upon the questioning by my leader yesterday and the Member for Rupertsland today.

As the Min ister ind icated in his Estima tes that he wants the technical in formation on potential environmental pollution sources to be available to all Manitobans and as he ind icated in this question period that he has a report from representatives of his department in respect to the meeting which was held in Kenora last night to determine the mine development on High Lake, is the Mi nister now prepared to table that report whic h was made available to him by his consultants or by his empl oyees within the department so that the people of Manitoba can have that technical information available to them? MR.

FILMON: Mr. Speaker, the report from my officials was a verbal report. The consulting report is a report that's been made available to our department and I would think that it would be very important for my officials to review that as quickly as they can and as thoroughly as they can and perhaps after that time we might consider the matter of making it but not until they've finis hed dealing with it. MR. COWAN: Well, Mr .

Speaker, it's a relatively easy matter to make xeroxes, but that notwithstanding, I'd ask the Minister as he indi cated when we discussed this matter during the Estima tes over a week ago that he would check to see if any federal money was involv ed in this project because if it was, in fact, in volved he suggested that the Province of Manitoba would have a way to deal with the project by invoking the Federal Environmental Assessment and Review process.

I would ask him now if he has undertaken to find out if federal money is inv olv ed with the project and, in effe ct, the province can bring forward their case before that particular body because of that reason. MR. FILMON: There does not appear to be federal in volvement at the moment, Mr. Speaker, we'll continue to keep an eye on them. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Mem ber for Churchill with a final supplementary. MR. COWAN: I'm not certain whether the Mini ster is saying that he has checked or that he doesn't know of any federal money.

I'll give him an opportunity to clarify that and as well I would ask him if he agrees with the statement that was made by Robert Dodds, the person who did the consulting report .. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. Questions of agreement in someone else's statement are hardly questions that elicit information in this Chamber. The honourable member care to rephrase this question? MR. COWAN: Thank you for your guidance, Mr. Speaker, I certainly would.

I'd lik e to ask the Minis ter if he can comment on the statement by Ro bert Dodds, the consulting firm, which said that you could dump 100 barrels in the lake and you wouldn't find a trace at Shoal Lake, when talking about some of the 1878 toxic chemicals which might represent a potential pollution hazard as a result of mining activity in the area. Can he commen\ on that statement which is reported in the Free Press, made by the person who has been entrusted to do a consultant's report on the potential pollution effects of this particular min ing activity? MR.

FILMON: I'm having my officials review all of the information that has been provided, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is add ressed to the Honourable Mi nister responsible for Hi storical Resources and I wonder if she could advise the House what the current status is with regard to Caron House in Ch arles wood please? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Cultural Affairs. HON. NORMA L. PRICE (Assiniboia): Mr.

Speaker, the Member from Fort Rouge knows that Caron House comes under the jurisdiction of the City of Winnipeg and at this point I haven't been asked to enter into the situation. MS. WESTBURY: Gi ven that Caron House is in the City of Winnipeg and is under that consideration, would the Mi nister advise, Mr. Speaker, whether any assuranc e has been given to the Cha rles wood Historical Society as far as restoration is concerned.

They have a guarantee of some federal money but there is some concern that there may have to be a cut back on some of the re storation, of cou rse restoration not coming under the city, particularly, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Mi nister can tell us what her advice is concerning the future restoration of Caron House. MRS. PRICE: Well, Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned before I have not been approached by the Historical Society at this point but I'm sure that, if and when they do come to me, that we'll certainly listen to their suggestions and talk to them about it more. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St.

Boniface. MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minis ter of Health. Could the Min ister tell us when he'll stop monitoring and hid ing behind the ins pector and do something about the scandalous situation at the St. Adolphe Nursing Home? Is the Minis ter aware that the nurses are doing their best but with lack of support staff they have to wake the patients up at 4:00 in the morning to start, they have to wait for hours for meals?

Is the Mini ster aware that they are left in filth and wet and that the relatives of the patients there are quite concerned for their loved ones with the situation that it's in? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'm certainly aware of those allegations and I'm certainly responsive to the

Thursday, 19 March, 1981 concerns raised by the Honourable Member for St. Boniface and I want to assure him that I have the same concerns and tha t is why we ha ve had Standards Division officers from the Commission on site at the St. Adolphe Nursing Home quite regularly in recent days and on spot-check bases whereby th ey (; Ome in at various time s of th e da y, at un scheduled times of the day and night. I'm not going to pretend for one moment that the situation is ideal at the St. Adolphe Nursing Home, it isn't, and it never is in a health facility where an indus trial dispute is taking place.

I have to say to the Honourable Member for St. Bon iface that on the basis of the very careful monitoring that's being done, the reports that are gi ven to me, the standard of nu rsing care is considered adequate and certainly considered up to standard but I would also want to make the point, Sir, that probably a very large reason for that, an explanation for that , is the work being done by the professional nursing staff at the home.

I think the professional nursing staff is doing a tremendous job in going the extra mile in maintai nin g the level of care there and orienting new and unfamilar staff with the residents. That situation is an extremely difficult one and should not be and will not be permitted to continue any longer than is possible. I'm hoping for a resolution of that di spute as sincerely as the Member from St. Bon iface is. MR. DESJARD INS: Mr.

Speaker, is the Min ister aware that the nu rses the mselv es say that the standards aren't fair. that they can 't cope; and is the Mini ster aware of some of the thin gs that are happe ning, lik e the patient being wakened at 4:00 in the morning to start their bat h. Is the Minis ter saying that we are exaggerating? I think the Minis ter said tha t yesterday, that tho se were not tr ue, th e statements that we've made. Is the Minis ter aware that some people have lost up to 10 pounds since this thing has been going on? Is the Minis ter aware that the people are very concerned; the relatives are very concerned.

I'm not taking sides on the strike, my concern is for the standards. Will the Mi nister endeavour to do something immediately himself, not just rely on somebody else and monitor for another thr ee months? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my answer to the Ho nurabl e Member for St. Boni face is yes, I am aware. I am aware of the alleged situations that exist there and I'm aware of the real situations that exist there. I have in front of me reports from our own Standards Officers and I have reports that have come to me from the professional nu rses on site.

My office has discussed the situation with the physician who tends to the residents of the home. I have communications in front of me from the Manitoba Organization of Nu rses Associations and the answer is yes. I am aware. The Honourable Member for St. Bon iface knows as well as I do that we"re talking about 66 residents - 42 of them personal care residents - and that one doesn 't entirely hold all the cards in these situations. We have to have beds for th ose residents.

What we need in there is a resolution of that ind ustrial dispute and we need some relief for the professional nursing staff that is working so hard. We're attempting to ach ieve that short of getting into a situation where 1879 somet hing arbit rary or somet hing sudden might happen which would find us without the capacity at the moment, to accom modate th ose particu lar residents; nor if possi ble, Mr. Speaker, do we want to have to move those residents and the honourable members kno ws why, I'm sure.

It is always a very di fficult and tr auma tic thin g to trans fer elderly persons and we are on the job I assure him, round the clock, attempting to resolve it and I'm just as concerned about it as he is. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for St. Boniface with a final supplementary. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I think that the situation of standards have been allowed to go down so badly that it is a shame. I suspect . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Then fu rther to the Min ister of Healt h. The Memb er for St.

Boni face asked the Mini ster if he would ackno wledge that in deed residents were being wakened at 4:00 a.m. in the morning to be washed and prepared for the day in contrast to the usual 7:00 to 7:30 a.m. awakening. The Minis ter indic ated he had many many reports and was monitoring the situation. If that be the case, Mr. Speaker, will the Min ister advise this House whether or not it is tr ue from a read ing of his reports, that inde ed the residents in that home are being wakened at 4:00 o'clock in the morning to be washed and prepared for the day? MR. SHERMAN: My information, Mr.

Speaker, is that such is not the case. There are di fficulties in assoc iation with the operation of a health facility where an ind ustrial dispute is taking place, obviously.

The professional nursing staff is hard-pr essed and hard-worked at the present time and I understand completely that there are emotional circumsta nces and situations that give rise to a considerable number of criticisms and complaints and we take none of those criticisms or complaints lightly. 1 can tell him that our Standards Officers have been in there as recently as the middle of the night through which we have just come, at 4:00 and 5:00 o'c lock ·in the morning unanno un ced , and th ey assured me that the level of care is all right.

That is not to say, Sir, that with new staff on hand, and unfamiliar staff on hand, and re sidents who are unfamilia r with the people who are looking after them , that it's a happy situation. It isn't a happy situation. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, then further to the Min ister. Is the Minis ter then in deed informing this Chamber that the information that he is reporting to us, inf ormation from the Emp loyment Standards Officers, has ind eed origina ted with the professional nurses to the effect that the allegations referred to by the Member for St. Boni face are incorrect?

Is that what the Minis ter is indicating, that the source of that in formation is inde ed with the profe ssional nurses in that home? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Sp eaker, I don't think it's necessary for me to repeat everything I'v e just said. Obviously the Leader of the Opposition didn't listen.

Thursday, 19 March, 1981 MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Leader of the Opposition with a final sup plementary. MR. PAWLEV: Mr. Speaker, then I ask the Minister of Health if indeed he will commence to listen, to listen to the real concerns involving the residents of that home, and the matters have been brought repeatedly to the Minis ter's attention. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osb orne): Mr.

Speaker, on March 5 the Me mber for Elmwood asked me some qu est ions relating to ch ange in bulle ts used by the Winnip eg Polic e Force , and asked me if I would review that matter and consider referring it to the Manitoba Police Commission. Mr. Speaker, I have consulted with the Winnipeg Police Department who have done a thorough study of the ammunition used by the department and have decided upon the use of a bullet which is less likely to pass through the body and harm third parties.

At the same time they have rejected the us e of ammunition which, while it would not pass through the body, would be likely to have serious explosive effects on contact. I point out, Mr. Speaker, to the Mem ber for Elmwood that the Police Department regulations set out extreme conditions which must exist before a police officer is entitled to discharge his firearm. In fact

Section 93(2) of the Wi nnip eg Police regulation states that a use of a firearm by a member may only be justified when on reasonable and probable grounds in the carrying out of a legal duty: (

a) his life is in danger; (

b) the life of another person is endangered; (

c) he is in danger of grievous bodily harm; (

d) another person is in danger of grievous bodily harm and then only if a less violent means is not adequate or possible. Mr. Speaker, the Police Department have decided upon a bullet which has been used successfully by other police officers and is less violent than used by other police departments. I'm sure that the possibility of a bullet passing through a body and endangering others is much less probable with the ne w information. In view of this study and report, Mr. Speaker, I don't think it is necessary to refer this matter to the Manitoba Police Commission. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Min ister of Health. Has the Minister's staff informed him that as a result of my questioning him about the broken windows, the poor maintenance of the St. Adolphe Home, which the Minister called inaccurate, has the Mi nister's staff informed him that as a result of those questions, the owner of the St. Ad olphe Home brought in lum ber and new windows today to clear up the gross inaccuracies of the Min ister in this respect? MR. SHERMAN: No, I haven't. Mr.

Speaker, nor do I intend to do so because if I did so it would be totally inaccurate. The operator of the St. Adolphe Nursing Home has responded to the findings of Workplace Safety and Health inspectors despatched earlier this month by the Department of Labour; has responded to meetings held between myself, the Min ister of Labour and the Ma nitoba Health Se rvices Commi ssion; and has responded to orders and instructions that have been directed to that operator by my office and the Health Services Commission several days ago. MR.

PARASIUK: I would like to ask the Min ister, rather than defend the owner of the St. Adolphe Home, would he please look at the Mini ster of Labour's records in this respect and find out that in fact the work orders were issued last February, and that the work orders are now only being responded to after questions have been raised on this matter in the House? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr.

Speaker, we were aware that some maintenance work, some upgrading work was taking place and yesterday I had one of my senior officials go in, in conjunction with one of the Workplace Safety people, in conjuction with a person from the Health Services Commission. We were made aware of the fact that the majority of the corrective measures that were required to be done had been done and the remainder will be done by noon tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Transcona with a final suppl ementary. MR. PARASIUK: Yes.

I'd like to ask the Minis ter of Health, if in vie w of the terrible emp loyment standards record of the owner of the St. Adolphe Home, and in view of his not complying with work orders promptly with respect to maintenance, is the Min ister of Health still actively considering a request from the owner of the St. Adolphe Home, to build more private profit-making homes and continue this type of care? Is the Mini ster still actively considering that request to build more private profit-makin g homes by this person? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, this gov ernment starts from no ideological prejudice or bias against -(I nterject ions)- That's very interest ing, that premature laughter, Mr. Speaker. it starts from no ideolo g ical prejudice or bias with respect to proprietary operations in the nursing home field, unlik e members opposite. Th ose proprietary operators who build to standards and oper ate to standards and demonstrate that they perform according to standards, are encouraged to participate in our health care system.

Any proprietary operator who does that will receive fair treat ment from this government, not from the previous government. A proprietary operator who does not, will not receive consideration by the government. -( Interjection) MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. I would hope that all membe rs, having onc e aske d a question, would give the member who is answering the question the courtesy of at least listening to him. or if you don't want to listen to him, allow me thE cou rtesy to listen to him. The Honourable Attorney-General. 1880

Thursday, 19 March, 1981 MR. MERCIER: Mr . Speaker, just to respond to a question from the Member for St. Johns who raised the matter again yesterday or the day before with respect to Orders for Return which are outstanding, I believe the Min ister of Labour filed one of those Orders for Return yesterday, and I'm advised that those matters are all under active consideration by the Min isters involved. I would suggest that if he has any questions about delay involved, that he refer the specific Order for Return to the indi vidual Mi nisters. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR.

SAMUEL USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I would lik e to ask the Min ister of Finance just when it is that he intends to bring down the Budget. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi ni ster of Finance. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Sou ris-K il la rney): Mr . Speaker, when that date is set, the House will be the first to know. MR. USK IW: Mr.

Speaker, I recall the Min ister indi cating that it would be an early Budget and I now think it is going to be a late one, but notwithstanding that I wish to ask the Mini ster, why it was that he was unable to extract a better inter est rate from the Lougheed admin istration on the $11 0-odd millions that were borrowed from the Province of Alberta of our own money, Mr. Sp eaker, money th at was extracted from the Province of Manitoba through oil revenues? MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, first of all, I believe my previous comment with respect to the Budget was that it would be earlier than last year and I expect that will be the case. Secondly, the rate of inte rest which the province obtained from Alb erta through its Heritage Fund is better than could be achieved on any market. The members opposite have a curious attitude towards what is theirs and what belongs to the rightful owners of it, and one of my colleagues raised the question of what type of interest would they expect to get from Saudi Arabia. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet with a final supplementary.

MR. USK IW: Mr. Speaker, I raise the question in light of the fact that the Premier of this province is so much in bed with Lougheed that it seems to me MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. There seems to be far too many trying to ask questions all at once. I recognize the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I again want to point out that the question is very germane since the Premier is so closely tied in with Loug heed on the constitutional issues, on energy issues and it seems to me that he should be able to extract a better deal for Manitoba with respect to borrowings of capital from the Province of Alberta. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Sp eaker, I assured the honourable member the rate that was achieved on 1881 that loan was a better rate than could be achieved anywhere else on the market.

I might point out that there is an item in my Estimates which I pointed to when I intr oduced them two days ago, $27.5 million I believe, Mr. Speaker, which is as a result of a loan taken out by those members opposite for Hydro a mere five years ago; $27.5 million that the taxpayers of the pr ovi nce have to pick up today as a consequence of the borrowing policies pursued by those members opposite. It doesn't surprise me, Mr. Speaker, that Premier Lough eed stands shoulder to shoulde r on many issues with our First Minis ter here.

When he first stood alone on the Constitution a few months ago, he was alone; there are seven other Premiers who have joined him now. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Question Period having expired, we will proceed with Orders of the Day. The Honourable Government House Leader. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, if I might first of all indi cate some changes in committee meetings which I've discussed with the Honourable Opposition House Leader, tomor row aft erno on, the Pub lic Utili ti es Commit tee which is meet ing will consider only the report of the Manitoba Telephone System.

On Tue sday, Ma rch 24, at 10 :00 a.m., Mr. Speaker, there will be a meeting of Public Utili ties rather than Economic Dev elopment; and Pu blic Uti liti es could th en complete the report of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. Then on Thursday, March 26, at 10 :00 a.m. next week, Mr . Speaker, the Commit tee on Economic Devel opment would meet as sch eduled, but to consider only the Manitoba Forestry Resources Ltd. Then, Mr.

Speaker, due to the lack of availability of the Mi nister, the meeting of Public Utilities for Tuesday, March 31 will be cancel led , but the Comm ittee will meet as scheduled on Thursday, April 2 and Friday April 3, to consider the Manitoba Hydro Report. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minis ter of Finance, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the Hous e resolv e it self into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. That wou ld be two Commi ttees, Mr. Sp eaker, Interim Supply would be considered tomorrow after Bills. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

MATTER OF GRI EVANCE MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Yes, Mr . Sp eaker. I rise on a Matter of Grievance with respect to the handling of the environmental aspects of the concerns raised by the Opposition in the last few days regarding the prop osed mi ne-mill complex which is to be established on a lake called High Lake, which is one of the tri bu taries lead ing in to the Shoal Lake Reservoir which forms the water supply area for the City of Winnip eg. Mr . Speaker, -(I nterjecti on)-

______ ______ ______ __ __ __ __ __ T�h�ursday, 19 March, 1981 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I find it very difficult to listen to the honourable member. If honourable members care to carry on private conversations, I would suggest they do it some other place or in a very low key. The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I ·'ind that it's typic al of the Pr og ressive Cons ·�rvat iv e Government in Manitoba when matters regarding the environment are raised, that the First Min is te·r of this province, from his seat, calls these motions 3larmist.

The entire history of this government since they have been in office has been dismal with respect to all of the envi ronmental concerns in the Pr ovince of Manitoba. We only have to look at the dis astrous handling of the MacGregor spill, the inatte ntion to other problems such as the lead pollution in the inner city, the lack of concern fo · other environmental matters like acid rain, the di� posal of PCBs. In the first few months of this gover nment's operation, Mr.

Speaker, we saw they were ready to set up a major condom inium project, or allow a co ndominium pr oject on Wh iteshell Lake, which would have been disastrous to the environment. It was only after protests in this House and protests by the public in Manitoba that that was turned back, and it took them th ree years to tell the people of Manitoba that they weren 't going to proc eed with that, Mr. Speaker. This is where they had some access and some respon sibility dir ectly for the environment.

Now we have the City of Winnip eg water supply, which could be in jeopardy by a project which is to be established on the shores of High Lake. Mr. Speaker, this matter was raised in this Legi�lature by my colleague the Member for Churchill during the Mi nister's Estimates, and we find it alarmin� l that the Mi nister, in spite of his assurances that this matter would be looke d in to, at this late stage in the development of this applicatio n he's only no w starting to look into it. Mr.

Speaker, as I pointed out in my que•stions to the Mini ster this af ternoon, th ere has been an advertisement in the press for the past WE!ek, from March 11 th to March 18 th, which pointed out to the Min ister and to anybody else that wanted to look, that there was detailed information and sLJpporting data on the proposed tailings area ava lable for review by the public at the Town Offices in Kenora, and at Robert Dodds Ltd ., Thunder Bay, Or tario. Mr.

Sp eaker, given the Mi ni ster's assuranc£!S to my colleague during the Estimates process. we expected that he would have instr ucted his staff to make sure that they obtained copies of this information. Mr. Speaker, he assured us in the question period yesterday that this proposal was at a very early stage of development and in fact it would be quite okay for his staff merely to go to this meeting in Knnora and act as observers, and listen to the concerns. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I went and attended that meeting in Kenora last night and I found out, to my di�;may, that the Ontario Government were prepared to approve this project within a couple of weeks, tha·: this was one of the final stages in the application process for this mine and for this milling operation. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, when I raised the qu estion in the meeting - and I might point out, Mr Speaker, 1882 that I was the only one from the Legislature at that meeting, there were no PC representatives there - the representatives which the Mini ster sent were junior members of his department who were not empo wered to make any rep resent ations at th at meeting, simply to be observers. Mr . Speaker, this was the hearing, this was the only hearing that was scheduled for this project. After this hearing, Mr.

Speaker, it was fully expected by the Ontario Government that they would merely answer the concerns that were raised at this meeting and they would go ahead with the project. Well, Mr. Speaker, the voice from Ma nitoba, from the Manitoba Government, was silent. There was no one at that meeting to make any kind of br ief or submission on behalf of the Manitoba Government when yoLJ consider a project which could impact on the entire water supply for the City of Winnipeg. This is shocking, Mr. Speaker, this is really shocking.

This Mini ster can't dodge this issue and say he was not aware of it, because he was made aware of it. He had the opportunity to act, to obtain the information, to have his staff have at least a week of lead time to look over this information, to analyze the information and to app ear at the meeting and protest in the strongest possible terms the millin g complex bein g app roved without a proper environmental impact study. Mr . Speaker, there are many questions that are raised in this report.

I happen to have a copy of the report handed to me only on Tuesday, and I' ve had the opportunity just very briefly to look over the report. As a layman, Mr. Speaker, I'm not prepared or able to comment on all the technical information which is in the report, but it appears to me that there's inadequ ate inf ormation, particularly with respect to the possible contaminants that may enter into the water supply system. In any case, Mr.

Speaker, I would think that the government should be concerned that here we have, as the only basis on which to make a representation, a report which was pr epa red by a consulting company for the mining company. They're working for the mining company to prepare an application to the Ontario Government for approval for a milling complex. So. Mr . Speaker, these people work for the mining company and they're going to continue to work for that mining company once the mill is in operation. So, Mr.

Speaker, it's in their interests to promote the mining application, and to make it look like there's nothing to be concerned about. Mr.

Speaker. at that meeting last night I got the di stinc t impr ession from the mining company engi neers, who were the main sponsors of the meet ing and of cou rse, the mining company thems elves, who were rep res ented by Ma rk Smer chansky, Sr., who is the president of Eco Explorations Limited, I got the distinct impressions that they were there to simply pat the people on the back and say don't worry, don't worry at all because everything will be all right, don't worry we're not going to pollute your water supply. Mr .

Speaker, I don't want to depend on that kind of analysis to protect the environment and to protect the water supply for the City of Winnipeg. I wouldn't think that the Mi nister of Environment should be ready to accept that kind of advice and technical analysis. He should be pr epar ed to ha ve his

Thursday, 19 March, 1981 department go over all the available information. Further to that, Mr. Speaker, he should be raising some serious concerns with respect to relying even on the Ontario Mini stry of Environ ment to recommend to him whether or not there should be a mining complex allo wed on that particular lake. The record of the Ontario government is certainly not a very favourable one. If you see what they are proposing to do with respect to this particular complex it gives even more concern.

At the meeting last night when the concern about whether or not there would be any danger to the water supp ly, the environment person who was represen ting the Ministry of Environment commented that the mining company would be doing the monitoring and that the staff of the Minis try of Environment of Ontario would monitor the mining companies' monitoring. Mr. Speaker, that's not good enough.

The y propose as it points out in the report, that they will pull some 90,000 gallons per day out of High Lake, push it through the millin g process, god knows what contaminants are going to enter that water while it's in the milling process. it's going back out into the tailings area, through the tailings area and back into High Lake - 90,000 gallons a day. The mining company in their interim report, propose to monitor that water supply or that discharge of water from the milling process once a week. Mr. Speaker, every week there's hundreds of thousands of gallons of water that go through the system.

Any one of those days could be a dangerous day as far as a spill or discharge from that system and they propose to monitor the discharge once a week. The lake into which this discharged material is entering, which is essentially the water supply for the City of Winnip eg, they intend to monitor that about three times a year. Mr. Speaker, I would hardly think that would be adequate, just from a layman's point of view. I would not be satisfied and I should think the Min ister should not be satisfied with that kind of monitoring. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, we would question a number of the things within the report and I want to go into some of those individual items which are of concern. They're using a chemical called sodium cyanide in the system of milling and I would expect that this is a pretty toxic chemical. Mr. Speaker, although I'm not aware of all of the properties. I don't believe that we should depend on the mining companies advice or the mining engi neers who are working for the mining company, their advice, as to whether or not this is a dangerous chemical to the people of Man itoba.

I would think we should want to have some kind of independent analysis of that to ensure that what they're telling us is the truth. Mr. Speaker, during the presentation by the mining company engine ers last night, it appeared to me that they were trying to give out as little information as possi ble . They had put together a fai rly comprehensive report which they had presented to the Minis try of Environment. This report was questioned at the meeting because one of the Indian bands in the area, Shoal Lake, managed to get a copy of this report and had pointed out the number of discrepancies in the report.

They said oh, all of your concerns will be answered, that's the answer they got at the meeting. Mr. Speaker, they tended to claim that this report was only an interim report and that the Minis try of 1883 Environment had information that answered many of the concerns in the report, although they never brought those answers to the meeting. I would say on the whole, Mr. Speaker, that it was a fai rly misleading kind of meeting and certainly one which left concerns in the minds of all those who were there.

There were a few residents from Manitoba by the way, that took the time to drive down to Kenora and make presentations at the meeting and ask questions. I talked to those people at the coffee break during the meeting and after the meeting, and they told me they were not happy at all about the presenta tion. They were concerned about the information that was presented and the lack of information that was presented. The bottom line, Mr.

Speaker, the last Manitoba person to speak at the meeting said that he simply did not believe the information that was presented to him by the mining company and the mining company engi neers. There was one person at the meeting, a Mrs. Lamb, wife of Mr. Barney Lamb, who had first­ hand experience with the operation of the Ontario Department of the Environment and had good reason to belie ve that you could not always trust the actions and the words of the Department of the Environment. The Lambs if you may recall, Mr.

Speaker, had property on the English Wabigoon River system that was subject to disastrous pollution in spite of their having been assured by the Mi nistry of Environment that there would be no pollution to that water system. She spoke at the meeting, Mr. Speaker, and she said that she would not put her faith and she would not want to have her water supply protected by the Ontario Minis try of Environment. So, I think one should keep that in mind, that one must question the information that is presented by this mining company and their engine ers and also by the Minis try of Environment. I would say, Mr.

Speaker, just to go through some very specific examples that there a number of very serious concerns. They talk about the mine being opened for only four years. However, there is no gu arantee anywhere in the report, ther e is no discussion in the report of there being any ongoing supervision of the mine-site in the tailings area to ensure that there's not some lasting pollution or lasting contamination of the water system after the mine is closed. There's no discussion about that, Mr. Speaker. They only talked about the four years and they said, don't worry it's only going to be operating for four years.

They admit in their report, Mr. Speaker, that there could be a failure of the retaining damn, which could result in a spill or a flow of water from the area. They admit also, Mr. Speaker, that there's danger of underseepage from the retaining damns around the tailings area where the mine is pouring their effluent. On top of that, Mr. Speaker, they're pouring out of the tailings area some 90,000 gallons a day back into High Lake and just to give you some perspective on that, Mr. Speaker, 90,000 gallons a day is like having 15 tanker trucks pouring the effluent into the lake, 15 tanker trucks every day.

He mentions in the report, which is publis hed in the Free Press today, that if you poured 10 0 barrels of oil or a 10 0 barrels of this effluent in the water you wouldn't notice the difference downstream. But, Mr. Speaker, what if

Thursday, 19 March, 1981 you're pouring not 100 times 45 gallons but 15 truckloads, 90,000 gallons a day, every day of the year for 365 days times four years. That's a lot of water, a lot of effluent going back into the system and I should think it would have some impact on the environment and the Mi nister should be concerned about that. Mr.

Speaker, another thing whic h the report add resses and which was no t answered at the meeting, not answered satisfactorily, is th at the dis charge from the tailings area will take place into natural peat at the site and I quote from the report where is says, "which tends to precipitate heavy metals from the effluent in transit to the point of discharge from the area. So they're counting on the peat to be their filter for the heavy metals coming out of the milling process.

They also point out in the report that they did an analysis of the peat area itself and they found high levels of arsenic, natural arsenic, in the peat surrounding the lake. In fact they admit in the report that the arsenic levels in this peat are higher than that permitted for normal healthy use of water and, Mr. Speaker, they propose to spill 90,000 gallons of water through that peat which will wash, I would think, would wash some of that arsenic into the lake, into the water supply system. Mr. Speaker, that should be a serious concern of this government.

They talk about the danger of acid mine drainage and their comment on that is seepage over time will probably not occur at this site. Well, Mr. Sp eaker , probability of acid dr aina ge no t occu rring, I would think, is too imprecise for anybody to take a chance on this happening. There has to be better safeguards than someone saying it probably will not occur. They talk about trace metals. They say that they will monitor for trace metals and they say that subsequent remedial measures will be taken if they find any. Wel l, Mr.

Speaker, they should know before the fact and they should ha ve adequate safeguards in pla ce before the fact, rather th an saying th ey will te st and then take remed ial measures. I would think that should be a bottom lin e in any instructions to the Government of Ontario in terms of their looking after this project. As I mentioned earlier, Mr. Speaker, th eir monitoring program appears to be totally ina dequate. They talk about check ing the tailings effluent weekly; they talk about checking the water discharge from the area monthly; and they talk about checking the water in Hi gh Lake th ree times a year.

They say that they will take remedial measures if contamina tion occurs and the n th ere will be treatment. Well, Mr. Speaker, it's too late, after the fact, to have treatment if there's contamination. I would think the bottom line for the Ma nitoba Government, and that should be made very clear to the Ontario Go vernnent, that ther e must be no contamination of the Winn ipeg water supply. Mr. Speaker, even on the application for approval that is designed by the Onta rio Mini stry of the Envir onment they ask the mining company to ind icate the proposed route to, and ultimate point of waste di scharge. Mr.

Sp eaker, the y seemed to conveniently overlook th at there will be waste discharge into High Lake; they simply answer that the waste discharge will be dis charged into tailing cells. Well, Mr. Speaker, it certainly came out in the meeting last night that there would be some very 1884 significant waste dis charge from those tailing cells further on into the Lake. The application to the Min istry of Environment also asks them to describe the facilities and precautions taken to prevent dis charge of contaminants through the operations or by accident and, Mr . Speaker, they did not do that.

Th ey are using a dang erous chemic al in the pr ocess - cyanide. And, Mr. Speaker, th ere are no precautions taken for an accidental spill of this chemical, certainly not outli ned in the report. Mr. Speaker, I have to give some appreciation to the Chief and Council of the Sh oal Lake In di an Reserve for bringing this matter to our attention and being at the meeting la st ni ght and making a presentation to the meeting to in dicate the kind of concerns that they had with respect to the dangers to the environment and to the water quality.

It was Chief Herb Red Sky and his council from Shoal Lake India n Band who were th ere making a kin d of presentation which I would have thought that the Mi nister of Environment in Ma nitoba should have had his staff making. It's really a sad case, Mr. Speaker, when we see a Minis ter who is so cavalier about the environment and who is obviously just ignoring his responsi bilities in respect to protecting the water supply of the City of Winnipeg. Mr.

Sp eaker, with respect to the engineering consulting firm that prepared the report for Eco Explorations Limited, a company which is applying for approval to establish the mine mill and waste disposal facility on the shores of High Lake, I don't think we can accept thei r report, their information, as a final word on the potential environmental dangers. I think that we ha ve to ha ve an in dependent environmental assessment review of this.

I think th ere should be a comprehensive enviro nmental impa ct study made on this pro posed min e mill complex and the Mini ster should make this demand of the Ontario Government. He should make it very clear to them that as far as Manitoba is concerned we do not want any mine mill complex set up on Sh oal Lake before there is an ind ependent compr ehensive envi ronmental impact study do ne. And in view of the fact, Mr.

Speaker, that this is the water supply for a city of over half a miliion people, it's too late after the fact to say: Oh, we're sorry we were wrong, we didn' t do a proper assessment of this project. It's too late then, Mr. Speaker. We must know before and this is not such an overri ding great economic project that some delay in its approval would be providing any great hardship to anybody. At the meeting in Kenora, Mr.

Sp eaker, as I mentioned, the Sh oal Lake In dian Band were in attendance, the Kenora District Labour Council were in attendance and they both made it very clear that, although they were concerned about employment and they wanted de velopment in the area for emplo yment reasons, the y were not opposed to development but, Mr. Speaker, they wanted to be assured that the proper environmental safeguards were in place. That took priority and I thought that was a responsible attitude on their part.

They were representing the Kenora area and the residents that live in and around the Shoal Lake area and they were saying, sure we want jobs but the environment is more imp ortant. the environment must be protected. We don't want a mine established here

Thursday, 19 March, 1981 that 's going to contaminate the area for the period of time that it's in operation and perhaps for dozen� of years afterwards_ So, in this particular case, Mr. Speaker , we're talking about the impa ct on the water supply for, not only the people of Winnip eg but the people living in that area.

I would think in the case of this Mini ster, he should be particularly concerned about the impact on the water supply for the people of Winnip eg and we have heard no concerns expr essed on that side about this, in fact, the Min ister did not take the opportunity to have his staff review this report before the meeting.

He should have ensured that they had •a copy of the report; he should have ensured that they went over the report, analysed it as much as they could and they should have been at the meeting · requesting the Min istry of Environment to hold off on the approval of any application until there was a proper study done. Mr. Speaker, there was no word on that and, in fact, my impression from the meeting is that the staff who were there from our government were told: You are only observers and you are not to say anything at that meeting.

The City of Winnip eg representatives who were there at least asked some questions and made some comments. They made the request in fact that they be allowed to comment on the process before it was approved; they were given a very vague commitment that, yes, we'll give you a couple of weeks to get your comments in to us. Tha t's the impression I got from the Minis try of Environment official who was present He felt, oh, yes. that's no problem, you send us your comments, as long as we get them within a couple of weeks. Mr. Speaker, this is not something which can be assessed in two week s.

In fact the Mini str y of Environ ment official who was there ind icated that even with their approval process, they had started talking to this mining company in October and it was now March and they were almost at the stage of approving it, tha t's some six months that they've been looking at it.

I rather criticize the Mini stry of Environment official who was there last night for not having informed the Government of Manitoba sooner in view of the fact that this was the Winnip eg water supply that they were talking about But he pointed out to me tha t they had made the advertisement in the press; it had been in the press for a week and the in formatio n was availabl e to the Mani toba Government if they wanted to pick it up. Mr. Speaker, he ind icated tha t they didn't pick it up, so I think the Mini ster has been di sreg arding his respo nsibil ities in this regard. Mr.

Speaker, I think that it would be ironic inde ed if the Province of Ontario allo wed the establishment of a mine mill which would allow contaminants to enter the water supply system for Winn ipeg when the case of the international waters, with respect to the Garrison Diversion project, when there's a concern over water quality, automatically the IJC clicks into action and we get an independent review of the activities of whic hever party is proposing to change or impa ct the water supply. Mr.

Speaker, in this case we don't seem to have any mechanism and the Mini ster doesn't seem to be concerned about putting into place some kind of a mechanism to ensure that Manitoba's concerns are dealt with and that all of the questions are answered and that people are assured that there's no t going to be any deterioration in their water supply. 1885 I think it's ind icative, Mr. Speaker, unfortunately, of the attitude of the Pr og ressiv e Cons ervative Government in Manitoba towards the environment They just do not seem to have sufficient concern; they do not give it a priority.

Obviously, they've gone through several Min isters now looking for somebody who would be an advocate for the environment; each one of them to date has been a di saster and, Mr. Speaker, this Mini ster seems to be following in the footsteps of his pr edecessors in tha t reg ard. (I nterject ion)- Well, Mr. Speaker, seeing that the Mini ster of Natural Resources is speaking from his seat, I would think that he should be concerned about this too. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): I am, I've had sleepless nights about it. MR. BOSTROM: Yes, well, Mr .

Speaker, we certainly have not heard any words of concern from the Mi nister of Natural Resources. As far as I kno w there were no representatives of the Minis try of Natural Resources at that meeting last night. High Lake happens to be a water that carries over on to the Ma nitoba side of the boundar y_ In fact, I am informed that the Manitoba Department of Natural Resources has stocked trout in that lake and, Mr.

Speaker, I would think, if for no other reason, even if the Mi nister of Natural Resources is not concerned about people and about water supply, maybe he should be concerned about the fish and he should be seeing if this mine mill complex will impact on the water supply so as to provide a deleterious effect on the fish. Mr.

Speaker, just thinking about that and think ing out loud for a moment about that, the Minis ter may be able to impose upon the Federal Government to invoke The Fisheries Act in terms of protecting the environment in that area because I belie ve th ere are fairly wide powers under The Fisheries Act, for the Federal Government that is, and the Minis ter of Natural Resources could play a role here in protecting the interests of Manitoba and assisting his colleague who doesn't seem to be very concerned about this matter.

The Min ister of Natural Resources could ask the Federal Government to ensure that the fish population in that lake is not harmed and in so doing he could protect some of the residents of Manitoba from having harm done to their drinkin g water. MR. ENNS: I spoke to the Mi nister yesterday in Regina about that. MR. BOSTROM: You did, that's very good. Mr. Speaker, I think that this matter goes beyond this particular mine mill complex and that is why we are highlighting it because this is only one small mine that is being proposed on the shores of the High Lake-Shoal Lake area. But , Mr .

Speaker, I'm informed that there is another mine being prop osed on an island in the middle of Shoal Lake and very possibly there are other developments around that lake which could impact in the future on the water supply in that area. So, Mr. Speaker, I think we should be very vigilant and make sure that each one of these as they come on stream are looked at and ana lyzed in terms of their impact on the total picture, in terms of their impa ct on the totality of the water system. I don't think that we can look at this as just

Thursday, 19 March, 1981 one small milling complex that may not have a very significant effect because, Mr. Speaker, it may be that this is only one of many that will be approved over the next several years which will impact on the water suppl y sytem of Manitoba. One alone may not have a great significant effect but taken in totality a num ber of them may have a very serious and disastrous effect. This is the ki nd of thing that I think possi bly happened on the English Wabigoon River system and I think that point was made very well by Mrs.

Lamb who was at the meeting last night who personally suffered the results of the lack of attention and the lack of vigila nce on the part of the Ontario Minis try of the Environment and the Ontario Government, in general, with respect to that water system. She was telling me that she did not in any way trust the water quality or the environment in the hands of the Ontario Government for good reason. So, Mr.

Speaker, I think the bottom line is that we have to say to the Province of Ontario, to the Government of Ontario, that for the protection of the people of Winnipeg we must oppose any proposed project which has the possibility of contaminating the water supply and this includes any projects which cannot give an absolute gu arantee against accidental spills or flows of contaminants into the water supply. If the project has any danger of accidentally affect ing the water system it must not proceed; that is our view. Mr.

Speaker, in that regard I believe that the Minis ter should immediately take action to demand that there be a full environmental impact review of this project, an environmental study which would be done by an independent authority . MR. SP EAKER: Order pl ease. The honourable member has five minutes. MR. BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I'm concluding my comments.

I would simply say that it seems very ironic that when this government was approached some 12 months ago, 12 -13 months ago, to provide the Shoal Lake Band with the opportunity of having access across Crown land to an area where they wanted to develop cottage lots on Shoal Lake, which could have been of some recreational benefit to Manit obans, some Manitobans, in fact I think they were even prepared to negotiate on giving up a portion of shoreline to the Manitoba Government in return for their giving access and providing assistance on the road building into the area, Mr.

Sp eaker, the Ma nitoba Government was very tough with that Indian band and they said, we're not giving you access even across Crown land; we're not giving you access even across ... MR. ENNS: That's not true. We said we'd check with the city first. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, I will wait to see if I am corrected but my information is that they refused to give the Indian band even access across the Crown land until such time as there was an environmental impact study done. At the same time, Mr.

Speaker, this government was informed by that Indian band in the negotiations that were taking place; why are you asking us to do this com prehen sive environm ental review, this 1886 environmental study, when there's a proposed mine going to be opening up in this area which could be pouring contami nants into the very waters that you're concerne d ab out and you 're not saying anything about their having to do a comprehensive environmental impact study. Mr. Speaker, you can't have it both ways.

If you're going to require the Shoal Lake Indian Band to have an environmental impact study done on their cottage subdivision, which I'm not arguing with, I think that's a leg itimate request if it's going to be fair to everybody, if everybody who is going to impact on the water supply of the City of Winnipeg are going to have to do the same thing. I'm saying in this case, Mr.

Speaker, that the Mini ster has been negligent in his duties because in the one case the government is proposing that the Indian band do the environmental impact study; in this case they are prepared to rely on the mining company; it appears they are prepared to rely on the Ontario Mi nistry of the Environment and I say that both of those are not the ones that we should be relying on, we should have an independent study of this. Mr.

Speaker, all you have to do is look at the controversies arising from recent actions of the Minis try of the Environment in Ontario and you see that cont roversies have includ ed a Mi nistry decision to build the province's major disposal site without holding Environ men tal Asses sment Act hearings. Hundreds of exemptions have been given to their own Act which they have passed to protect the environment in Ontario. The acid rain menace, critics say the Mini stry have been slow ordering polluters to reduce the smoke from those that are producing the acid rain problem.

Pesticides, the Minis try was reluctant to ban 2,4 ,5-T contaminants with traces of dioxin and, Mr. Speaker, the li st goes on and on and we know that the Ontario Min istry of the Environment does not have a good record for protecting the envi ronment. We know that the Manitoba Government, over its three­ year history, has had an absolutely disastrous record of protecting the Manitoba environment. So, Mr. Speaker, we can't trust the P.C. Gove rnment in Manitoba and we can't trust the P.C.

Government in Ontario to protect our environment and that's why we' re demanding that there be an independent comprehensive economic impact study done on this project and any other project that's going to impact on the water supply of the City of Winnipeg. QUESTION put, MOTION carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Fina nce; and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Health. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPL V SUPPL V - HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr.

Morris McGregor (Vir den): I call the Committee to order. We left off at Line 2, Personal Ca re Home Prog ram - pa ss - the Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: I belie ve that I had asked the Min ister a whole set of questions regarding the

Thursday, 19 March, 1981 inspection procedures and what was happening at the Personal Care Home at St. Adolphe. Since that time I went out there, I spoke to residents there, I spoke to workers there, I spoke to the local parish priest who I'm qui te certain has no axe to grind at all. but is concerned about the quality of care for the patients. He's been there for two years. Some of the th ings he told me staggered me.

He said that there have been certain rooms that have not had heating for as long as he has been there; that auxilia ry heaters were req uired; that as a result circuits were being blown by auxiliary heaters; that there were � ix rooms that had water leaking into them. A woma n called Mrs. Boucher refused to pay rent until she got her room patched up; people weren't sure whether it was patched up fully; just what I'd call horror story after horror story was recited to me. What surp ris ed me is that if the conditions .

Then of cou rse we have the repor t of the Workplace Safety and Health inspector which said that the work order had to be complied with by February 19 . The work order certainly hadn't been complied with as of yesterday morning. There were at least th ree broken windows that I could ascert ain; one on the second storey of the home facing north beside the elevator had been broken for at least six month; in fact one of the patients had cut his hand on the broken window some time ago and the window had not been repaired.

So if the conditions aren't safe for the workers as the Workp lace Sa fety and Health report ind icates, the fact that at least one patient ha d cut hi mself on one of the broken windo ws ind icates that if the conditions aren't safe for the workers, then surely they aren't safe for the patients. So I think it's not enough for the Mi nister to say, well that's a matter pertaining to the Minister of Labour. Su rely if conditions ar en't safe for the workers, they're not safe for the patients either and that comes back to the whole question of inspection and ins pection procedures.

I had people tell me agai n yes terda y as the y ha ve told me in other personal care homes that I have visited when I've asked them the qu es tion, do you ha ve any kn owledge of when a government health ins pector is corning around to inspect the premi ses? And their answer has been always, yes. So I think we have some very serious questions to raise with respect to the whole inspection procedure, not only with respect to the St. Adolph e Home because this is a crisis that exists right now, but with respect to ins pection procedures generally.

I kno w tha t the Mini ster and the Mini ster of Labour did send out th ree new faces yesterday at 12 :30, they came in at 12 :30; one was from the Fire Comm is sioner's office. one was from the I think Workpla ce, Safety and Health Division of the Department of Labour and one was another in spector from the Ma nitoba Health Services Commission. I assumed that the Min ister has been able to receive a report from these th ree spec ial in spectors sent out in respons e to our questions and I hope he can answer us.

I hope as well he is in a position to indic ate whether his inspectors have received any reports from the nu rses about their situation, if in fact they have received any work orders or work files, whatever the specific name is given to a procedure whereby a nu rse in a facility tries to inform the owner and other authorities 1887 of the fact that their situation is overloaded and they can't cope. My unde rstan ding again through the parish priest is that that in fact is the situation.

My understanding in terms of talking to some of the nur ses, that is the situation, that they have tried to pass those reports on to Mr. Brousseau but he has not acknowledged them. So I think they are trying to take other action. I would assume that a normal thing for them to do would be to pass on these reports, these complaints to the Manitoba Health Services Commission. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Transcona has asked a number of questions with respect to the St.

Adolphe situation in the course of the current week that have not been add ressed in the Comm ittee as yet, although some of them have been raised during que stion period of the regular sittings of the House this week . Prior to the Committ ee's rising on Tuesday night, the Member for Transcona had asked a numb er of questions that were placed on the record to be answered by the Mi nister if possible at the next sitting of the Commit tee and he's raised a few more today and I'l l attempt to deal with them briefly as possible.

It may be that some thin gs have already been said during the course of question and answer exchanges in the House, so I may not expand as fully as might otherwise ha ve been the case, Mr. Chairman . All I can do is attempt to respond to the honourable member and see where we go from there. In the first place I want to say in response to him and in response to the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, that I am deeply concerned about the situation at St.

Adolphe and if that were not so we would not be, through the Commission and under my express instructions, monitoring that situation on a virtual rou nd-th e-clock basis. We would not be sending Standards Division officers and inspectors from the Comm ission in to those premis es on a virtual continuing basis at the present time if it were not that I am deeply concerned and the government is deeply concerned with the situation. But let me try to put the thing in perspective for a moment without being too lengthy about it.

My respon sibilities as Minis ter of Health are to ensure that the welfare and well-being and care and safety of all Manitobans who come in contact with our health services, is main taine d at a level of acceptable quality; that level of quality being the one to which all of us on both sides of the House aspire and to which Manitoba has become used, and which certainly compares with any, anywhere in Canada. The residents of the Personal Care Home at St. Adolphe of course are entitled to treatment and environment and conditions in their setting, in their premises, that meet those objectives.

That is my prim ary responsibility as Mini ster of Health. It is not my primary responsibility to try to resolve indu strial disputes. It's unfortunate and regrettable that the staff, the non- professional staff at the St. Adolphe Nu rsing Home, has found it necessary, in their view, to effect a work stoppage and leave their jobs in order to ach ieve what th ey perceiv e as their legitimate ambitions in terms of wages. I'm not going to argue that point; th ey have their positi on, and it's a perfectly leg itima te one. But tha t is not my

_.______ Thursday, 19 March, 1981 responsibility; that is their responsibility. They chose to leave their jobs and go on the picket line in search of higher wages. My responsibi li ty is to ensure that in those circumstances, that health care and nursing care is maintained in that facility. We have attempted to do that through the inspection procedure that I've referred to. MR. PARASIUK: Without debating, could I just ask the Mi nister just for a point of clarification of what he just said, is he saying that is a strike or a lockout?

My im pression is there was a rotating strike for one day and that now the staff are locked out. MR. SHERMAN: Well, I deli berately - maybe it's semantics - but throughout this situation I' ve deli berately avoided using the word "strike" ; I'v e called it an industrial dispute. I don't want to refer to it as a strike. There was a work stoppage which has escalated into a serious industrial dispute in which the workers now find themselves, in most instances, unable to return to the job s they had; perhaps it's in correct to say, in most in stances, in some instances.

I think that a considerable number of the workers, perhaps the majority of them, have been ensured that they can have their jobs back, but I unde rstand some of them have been told they won't be welcome back. So it's a little difficult, 1 guess, to be precise in language on this thing but, for the sake of simpl icity, I simply refer to it as an indu strial dispute. In any event, the effects of it have been effects that naturally influe nce the atmosphe re and the environment in the nursing home.

That of course has ramifications for the residents and that's where my concern comes in, and that's why we've had inspectors assigned to monitor the situation virtually around the clock. Now the Honourable Member for Transcona has asked me about the methodology of inspections and visits by inspectors to personal care homes and has inqu ired as to whether the y are anno un ced or unannounced. The answer, Mr. Chairman, is both.

Certainly a great many inspections are announced ahead of time, beforeh and, because one of the obvious yardsticks for meas uring situations and conditions in health facilities is conversation with key personnel, key staff at those health facilities and it's necessary to ensure that those certain personnel will be available when the insp ectors go out in order to ensure that they can discuss matters with those personnel. Further to that the question of distance and travel comes into it.

If inspectors are going in to look at something in a health facility in Winnip eg it's somewhat different from going into a rural facility where there is travel and distance involved and they want to be sure that the people who they want to talk to are there. So, for the most part, Mr. Chairman, I would have to say to the honourable member that inspections are scheduled and pre­ announced but emergency inspections, or special circumstance inspections, are not prescheduled or preannounced.

When special circumstances warrant and specific problems have arisen, unann ounced visits and inspections are made and they can be made at various times of the day or evening and at various times of any day or evening and this is in fact what has happened in con nection with St. Adolphe. We have, through the Executive Director of the Commission, requested of the Standards Officers that they carry out ad hoc inspections. I'm assured that that has been done in the case of St. Adolphe.

I'm also assured that there has been conversation, discussion and commun ication between those officers and between the workers who are on the picket line. Now I certainly have the impression from a discussion that I had with various of the workers and the picketers in the corridors of this building half-an-hour ago that, from their perception , they have not had conversations with the inspectors, because I put that qu est ion direct ion to them, whether they had put their complaints to the inspectors.

I think the answer was in the negative or the answer was that the inspectors hadn't talked to them or weren't interested in talking to them. Well, Mr. Chairman, I am fully aware that the Honourable Mem ber for Transcona and the Honourable Member for St.

Boniface are attempting to portray a situation as truthfully and as honestly as they can, as they see it and as it has been reported to them, and I simply want to say that I am in exactly the same position; I am attempting to report on a situation as truthfully and as honestly as I see it and as it is reported to me. lt probably doesn't shed much light or pave the way for very much resolution of this problem for either one of us, either party, to cast do ubt or suspicion on the other party's comments or remarks because I think a sinc ere effort is being made to report on the facts.

I'm advised by the commission inspectors that they have had conversation with the picketers; that they have talked to them while going into and out of the St. Adolphe premises. I just wish to make that point. I suppos e all it does is ill ustrate once again that judgments of this kind are su bjective and one person's sauce is another person's poison and it all depends on the perspective from which you come and I suppose the

interpretation you put on it but attempts certainly have been made by the inspectors to get the whole story. Further to that my office has talked to the physician at the St. Adolphe Nursing Home, Dr. Miller and I'm not going to put words into Dr. Miller's mouth but I can assure you that we have talked to him. My reports are as I have reported them, that the atmosphere is by no means ideal. I don't think there ever was a health facility where there's upheaval of that sort taking place, but that the standards of nursing care that are required by the Commission are being met.

Now that is not to say that there aren't difficulties. When you've got an untrained, unoriented staff, when you've got a professional staff that is going the extra mile, indeed the extra live mil es, to keep things operating properly, and is overworked, and is under emotional pressure, and is exhausted by the circumstances that its members find itself in, and you've got elderly persons who are disoriented because they see strange faces in front of them, there are obviously going to be specific situations that are les s than id eal by some considerable distance.

But then we have to conside r the two other aspects of the question, Mr. Chairman. Does the Min ister of Health move in an arbitrary, uni lateral way to remove those residents from that nursing home? If he does, he has to consider three things: One, the relocation of those residents, with nursing 1888

Thursday, 19 March, 1981 care. in a dif ferent faci lity; Two, the im pact of movement, transfer of that kind on elderly persons, and I think the Mem ber for St. Bon iface is fully familiar with that situation, because both he and I have gone through it, moving elderly residents out of one facility into another. You do that at your own risk . Mr.

Chairman . any Health Min ister does that at his own risk, and he's very very fortunate if he can do it without loss of life, because of the trauma involved; Three, I'm not the Minis ter of Labour, but I"m a Manitoban lik e the Member for Transcona and the Memb er for St. Bon iface, and I' ve got to consider the staff, the workers who are out on the picket line. I can assure the Honourable Member for Transcona that if we were to close down the St.

Adolphe Nursing Home and transfer those patients to a different locat ion, even if we weren't to close it down, if we were sim ply to trans fer th em to a dif ferent locat ion, that the situat ion, the futur e prospects for the employees of that home, would be very cloudy indeed. We'r e really wrestling with all th ree of th ose imperatives. The ideal solution would be to get that industrial dispute resolved. I'm urging my colleague, the Mi nister of Labour and he, through his office, is doing all he can to effect that and achieve that.

In the meantime, all we can do is lay on the operator the orders for improvement in physical plant and maintenance. We've been assured by him that they are being carried out, tha t some of them have already been completed, and some of them indeed, Mr. Chairman, although some were relatively serious, many of them were inde ed minor, indeed minor. I think perhaps some overemphasis has been placed on some of them.

I doubt tha t th ere are very many facilit ies or institutions anywhere in the province, notwithstanding our efforts to keep them at peak physical levels, can claim that there aren't from time to tim e, minor maintenance and repair problems facing them, that have to be undertaken and that are undertaken. Unfortunately, some are quicker to act on them and respond to them than others. We have not had very much co-operation, I don't mind saying that for that record, until very recently from the St. Adolphe Nursing Home in this respect.

But I have been assured in the last few days because of a strict, firm and final order that they are being carried out and a great many of them are · completed now, there are one or two st ill to be done. I don't know what else I can add to that, Mr . Chairman, other than to say that we continue to require reports night and day from our Standards Officers on the situation .

If inde ed there is a consensus that nursing care is not good enough, is not adequate, then I'll have no hesitation in taking whatever action needs to be taken , but I just want all members of the comm itte e to appr eciate the conseque nces of that act ion. There are th ree consequences and I have pointed them out. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Memb er for St. Bon iface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, yes I'd like to participate in this debate. In view of the fact also that I ask questions and the way I asked questions of the Min ister today. The Min ister is somewhat like a Jekyll and Hyde.

In committee the Mini ster asks for co-operation; he 1889 seems to be very sincere, I don't doubt his sincerity; he wants un ders tanding; and he wants to work together and sometimes he's quite flattering, but it's a different situation in the House. The Min ister said today that he has no doubt, he wanted us to be convinced that he was sincere and I tell him right now that I'm convinc ed of that.

Then he told us that in turn he felt that we were honest in our questions, the way that we felt and the way it was reported to us, but that's not what he said yesterday - not about me but about my colleague from Transcona. That is not what his colleagues are saying. We are at a very much of a disadvantage during the Question Period. We try to bring something up and tha t's usually where everybody is inter ested because that's where the press is at all times and the T.V. and everyt hing. Let 's not be naive, there should be an election within a numb er of months and for some it's very important.

I resent the fact that every time I ask something or any of my colleagues that automa ti cally we are alarmists, defeatists and it is our responsi bility. The Mi ni ster ha s a very poor memory if he can't remember how rough he was and less co-operative than he was, way less than we are now. Maybe I should become the Mi nister of Health again and he comes into opposition and having been there like I ha ve he will unde rs tand more. He'll be more sympathetic than he was when he was in opposition.

To refresh his memory let him read what he said about me and in the same situation what he said about the Mi nister of ... What's the matter? MR. CHAIRMAN: I' ve got ins tr uctions from the Clerk 's Office to have the commit tee rise at 4:00 to accommodate the Royal Assent, I believe, on Bill 15 and I think the understanding is that we will not be coming back in here after that. We'll be going to Private Memb ers' Hour I believe and be returning at 8:00 o'clock. Commi ttee rise. SUP PLY - FINANCE MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Abe. Ko vnats (R adisson): Comm itte e come to order.

I would di rect the honourable members' attention to Page 58 of the Main Es timates, Department of Finance. Resolution No. 61, Claus e 1. General Admi nistration. Item under dis cussion is (

b) Excecutive,

(1) Salaries - pass - the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman , I want to pick off from where we were in debate the other day where the Minis ter failed to respon d, at least in my opinion failed to respond in a way whic h would ha ve ind icated to the people of Manitoba just what their economic policy thrust is going to be.

It seems to me that the Mini ster was un prepared for that kin d of que stion becaus e he got back into is sues of yesteryear, got into the question of who did what when and who benefited from and whether it was good or bad, going all the way back to involvement of the Government of Manitoba through the MD C and a numb er of ventures in the several years during our period of government, but he did not outline, Mr. Chairman , for one moment the economic philosophy and the dir ection that his government is going to take, and in particular what kind of fiscal polic y they

Thursday, 19 March, 1981 will em ploy to deal with the present economic conditions. Now, Mr. Chairman, it seems obvious to all of us, certainly to the people of Mani toba that we are indeed in very difficult times, economically speaking, and that there has to be an address made to those ques tions that are in fact bele ag uering many business people throughout the land and certainly Manitoba.

The statistics in Ma nitoba certainly are not something to be proud of and they ought to be dealt with forthrightly. it's certainly part of an international, certainly a continental situation, but if you look at Manitoba's statistics they tend to emphasize the negative economy that exists all around us. The depopulation that has taken place, the whole host of bankrup tcies that are now taking pl ace where Manitoba is relative to the rest of the country on that question. So, it seems to me that it is not good enough, Mr.

Chairman, to talk in terms of this being a shake-out period as the Cons ervative pol icy always has indicated before that during weaker times, economic times, that it's a time to shake out the weak sisters in the economy and you end up with the strong ones. Well, Mr. Chairman, there are more than weak sisters in the economy that are in trouble and one of the major contributing factors, of course, is the high in te rest rates that are being paid by every entrepreneur in this provinc e and inde ed in this country.

You kn ow, interest rates approaching 20 percent can have no other effect other than to cause a great deal of harm to the whole of our economy through the series of ban krup tcies that result therefrom. We haven't heard one word of where this government is going on the que stion of inte rest rates. Now it seems to me that this government along with the other Premiers of Canada ought to be pushing Ottawa hard for an economic conference. They are currently preoccu pied with the question of confrontation in the Constitution and the economic questions have been set aside for the time being. Mr.

Chairman, I don't accept for one moment that the federal preoccupation with the Constitution at this time is a right preoccupation either, but at the same time, Mr. Chairman, I don't believe the provinces are doing what they ought to be doing relative to the needs of the economics of this country, by also dwelling on the same subject and by taking the court action that has been under way. it seems to me, Mr.

Chairman, that the provinces would be better off to recognize that the Government of Canada is inde ed determined to put the constitutional measures through and that rather than take a negative position on the quest ion, they ought to at least gi ve a position ind ication that if the Government of Canada were prepared to bring the Constitution back without amendment, that they would give their commitment that within a time frame they would agree to a new package in Canada. And anything short of that kind of commitment, Mr. Chairman, is irresponsible on their part and I fault them for it.

I have no problem in agreeing with them on certain aspects of their position, Mr. Chairman. I happen to prefer, personally, a Charter of Rig hts outside of entrenchment, quite frankly. I have no problem with them, but surely, Mr. Chairman, they can take the position vis-a-vis the Government of Canada that 1890 they are prepared to give a commitment that within a year-and-a-half we will have a Constitution made in Canada come hell or high water, Mr.

Chairman, and that commitment should be binding and we should get out of the process of the courts that we are now in. lt seems to me if that kind of a commitment were made the Goverment of Canada, the Prime Mi nister, might be willing to concede. Perhaps I am too optimis tic but at least one could not fau lt the Premiers for having made the attempt and if in vain then we know where we stand, Mr. Chairman, but at least the attempt should be made. Mr.

Chairman, if we could deal with that question in that way, it seems to me that we would be back to the issues that are important to most people in Canada and those are the economic issues. lt seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that there is a need for a national economic plan in order to come to grips with the high unemp loyment and the high interest rates that are affecting Canadians so adversely. lt seems to me, Mr.

Chairman, that the Minis ter of Finance or the Premier could have announced an economic plan for the Province of Manitoba having taken into account these very serious questions. lt seems to me that that is the only way that there is any hope of economic recovery and that is if the province was prep ared to unde rtake certain measures in co-operation with the private sector in the Province of Manitoba to bring about a reversal of the economic decline that we are now witnessing. lt seems to me, Mr.

Chairman, that one of the ways in which this could be achie ved would be through the establishment of a, call it what you will, an economic council or economic and productivity council, a council that would be an advisory body to the government, a council that would be made up of management people, of capital and of labour people and government in order to depart from the old system, Mr.

Chairman, of allowing the private sector to do its thing wit hout the involv ement of govern ment but rather to get into a more co­ operative system, a partnership arrangement as between government, management and labour as to how we can put our economic package together in order to deal with those problems. Mr. Chairman, I don't belie ve anything short of that approach is going to work because it certainly has been demonstrated that it doesn't work anywhere in the world. And so we have to take a look backwards to see where we come from, Mr.

Chairman, in terms of economic policy and then we have to decide on where we want to go. And this Minis ter has not enunciated that, neither has the First Min ister. We are now into the third month of the Session and we don't know what government economic policy is, government economic thrust is for the Province of Manitoba. Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm saying that we don't know because the government hasn't told us. They are not prepared to tell us because they haven't thought it through, Mr. Chairman.

They are not prepared to take an interventionist attitude into the economic affairs of this province. lt seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that one of the obvious things has to be that government should make a thorough review, not only government, all of us in society, should make a thorough review of traditional profit and wage settlement systems. You

Thursday, 19 March, 1981 know, it's all right to say that we have gone along for so many years with the adversary system in the management and labour question, Mr. Chairman, but I'm not sure that there isn't another road, another way in which that question could not be addressed, or could be add ressed . lt se ems to me, Mr.

Chairman, that government could invite the people involved with the capital of this province and the people involved with the production capacity, and that is the labour movemen t, into a consultative process that would result in a greater degree of economic stability that perhaps would question the old leapfrog system of wage settlements even. I'm not sure that anyone wants to get hung up on the past practices of one-upmanship.

But it seems to me there is some responsibility on this Min ister to be able to pull these things together, not this Minister but this government, this Min ister is only one part of the government, to pull these things together in order that we have a greater degree of equity as between various sectors, various wage groups in our economy in the Province of Manitoba. What we are witnessing, Mr. Chairman is a greater disp arity and this government has accentuated that disparity by cutting back, Mr.

Chairman, on the programs that were intended to try and bring about some level of redistribution of wealth in order to maintain some relationship as to the lower wage income people and the higher wage income people and so on. So, there is no policy, Mr. Chairman, and this government is not attempting to bring one about. I think one has to examine the fact that in a wage management process of nego tiations for new contracts one must recognize that there are always two positions put forward; one by management and one by labour, Mr. Chairman.

But what we must recogn ize is that they are both vested inte rest positions. There is an attempt to extract something, one from the other, and that the public interest is usually the last consideration, Mr. Chairman. That is something that happens that way simply because we haven't attempted to put together a more co­ operative approach to that question. Now, I don't fault the members opposite alone, I belie ve that it's true that we also have had the same failings and we have accepted the fact that the adversary system is the only system that can ever be and for that, Mr.

Chairman, I would have to agree that before the Mini ster sug gested to me that perhaps we were at fault too, but it seems to me now is a good time to look back on the process and try to come up with a new approach to those age old questions. Mr. Chairman, I don't believe that the traditional New Democratic Party position is a sacred cow, I don't believe it's a sacred cow. I have never believed that any position is there for all times and it seems to me. Mr.

Chairman, that New Democrats, not only Conservatives, ought to review where they've been and where they are going from time to time, and in that connection I happen to be one of those, and always was one of those, who didn't truly like the concept of affiliation within our political party with the labour mo vement. That has ne ver been a comfortable arrangement for me, Mr. Chairman, but we have had it since 19 61, sinc e the founding convention. lt seems to me, Mr.

Chairman, that we 1891 could have and have learned from that process,. and as a member of the New Democratic Party I have no problem in reflecting back and determining whether or not that process was good, bad , med iocre, whatever and rethinking our position, whether or not that is the way in which we ought to continue. Mr. Chairman, I believe the New Democrats would be wise to reassess that relationship after 20-odd years. I see nothing wrong with that. I think that would be a healthy process.

The same as I am suggesting to the Government of Manitoba that their anti-labour stance ought to be reassessed in a more positive vein. That indeed, that the whole business of the production of new wealth has to be a co­ operative effort, as between labour and management and the public sector. So, Mr. Chairman, these are the kinds of things that are glaring at us and no one is taking the responsibility to deal with them and this is a shortfall, I believe, of this government that should not go unn oticed. lt seems to me, Mr.

Chairman, that the Government of Manitoba should take into confidence those people in the labour movement that have their axe to grind; they should take into confidence those people in the management sector that have also their interests and they should try to pull together those resources in order to come up with the kind of co­ operative system that hopefully will not, while they will not be perfect, Mr. Chairman, but will get us away from the old battle -grounds of action and cou nteraction, strikes and threats of strike s, regardless of the consequences. lt seems to me, Mr.

Chairman, that we are living in a period where we must not shrink back from our responsibility in trying to change what has been taking place into a more modern new approach towards labour management relations and towards the question of how government is involved in those relations. I don't think it's good enough anymore, Mr.

Chairman, to sugg est that we take a hands-off appr oach to di sregard the impact that these questions have on the rest of the economy of this province; to disregard the fact that, if you have very signi ficant leap-frogging in settlements; that there has to be either adjustments made in other sectors of the economy that have no abili ty to adj ust themselves, or to have some mechanism which would result in agreement on the part of government, labour and management on how far we can go with respect to settlements; some kind of a mechanism that would provide us with some guideline, wherein we would have a handle on what is possible within the economic conditions of this province with respect to profits, with respect to wage settlements.

You have to take the whole ball of wax and come out with a policy that is designed for the betterment of the whole community, not for the betterment of one side or the other, Mr. Chairman. I have to admit, Mr. Chairman, that you know, we have problems in our particular party, as you do. Hangups on your side have to do with everything that capital does is good, hangups that some of our people have, and I'm happy to say it's a small element, that anyone that has any entrepreneurial skill is somehow a bad person. That is ridiculous too, Mr. Chairman. (l nterjection)- Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Min ister suggests that was my own thoughts at one time. They were never my

Thursday, 19 March, 1981 thoughts, Mr. Chairman, because I happen to have had a long period of association with people who were of that type, who liked to invest dollars into busin esses, like d to make some money, and emp loyed people, as well as I have also worked very closely with those that have produced the wealth, and that is the workers of this country. That is a shortfall, Mr.

Chairman, that the go vernment opposite has and that is that they fail to admit, I know they recognize, but they fail to admit that the true wealth of the nation is related to the amount of production coming out of the workers of the nation. That is the source of all wealth. So when you look at this in its full context, Mr. Chairman, you have to always appreciate the fact that whatever deal is made between labour and management and government, you have to do it in the context and in the knowledge that new wealth is created by people's productivity. 1t is not created by capital alone.

Capital is merely a vehicle, but new wealth is created by actual production, by the putting to work of tens of thousands of people. That's where we get the wherewithal through which we continue to prosper and build on our standard of living. One of the things that members opposite fail to recognize in that connection, Mr. Chairman, is that the labour element is indeed, one of the most, in fact the most important element in this process. Now that doesn't mean to say, Mr.

Chairman, and this is where I want to make a point, that I belie ve that organized labour ought to have a dominant role with respect to any political party, including the New Democrats, yes. I have never accepted that theory, Mr. Chairman. To the extent that from time to time it does show up, that they have exercised, in the minds of some people, some excessive pressure within our political party, Mr. Chairman, I have no problem in pointing out that I don't like it when it occurs.

I bel ie ve that as far as the New Democrats are concerned, -(I nterjection)- I know the Attorney­ General is trying to have fun with me, that we probably would be better off without an affiliated arrangement poli tically. I think that's a realistic position, that we probably would be politically better off without the affiliated status of the trade union movement within the New Democratic Party. But I also believe that there are benefits to be gained by the trade union people, by not being directly affi li ated with any political pa rty.

That happens to be my viewpoint today, and it has always been my viewpoi nt. (Int erjec tion)- So, Mr. Chairman, no, the Member for Rock Lake suggests that somehow I'm not in my proper place because of those views, Mr. Chairman. That is a very narrow definition of one's participation in the politic al process, because I'm certain, Mr. Chairman, that the Mem ber for Rock Lake is not at all convinced of every policy position that his government brings about. No question, Mr.

Chairman, that when the government lays down a policy and the whip is on, that the Member for Rock Lake has the choice of sitting in his seat and voting for whatever is before him or not bothering to participate whatever, but he's not in a position to challenge it at that particular time. He may challenge it in his caucus room. Yes, he could challenge it there and that's legitima te. But, Mr. Chairman, once a decision is made, he knows that the process is such that he is bound by it, very 1892 much the same as all of the members on this side are bound by whatever the caucus decides on our side.

That's to be expected. But, Mr. Chairman, let it not be said from anyone, Mr. Chairman, that the poliical process as we have experienced in Manitoba in the last decade or the last couple of decades, is one that ought not to be reviewed and looked at. I say that for the benefit of our political party on this side as much as I am saying it for the benefit of the members opposite, that nothing, as the former Premier used to say, is eng raved in stone, that policies have to change in accordance, Mr.

Chairman, with the times, and that any political party that doesn't have that flexibility will become an extinct species in a matter of time. So with all due respect to the members from the other side who like to link our party with certain policy positions of past years, Mr. Chairman, I want to point out to them that is irrelevant in terms of the needs of today, and the fact that party policies have to evolve and change on an ongoing, daily, annual basis; no question in my mind. So, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to hear from the Min ister of Finance just what kind of a package is he putting together with respect to dealing with high interest rates, with respect to dealing with bankruptcies as a result of those interest rates.

What is the government intending to do? it seems to me if he had some mechanism that would assist him, then at least we would have the global picture before us, we would know that there is going to be $200 million or $400 million or $700 million or $800 million that was going to be invested in Manitoba in new capital expenditures, we would know that creates so many jobs, and we know that we have so many more to create, and we could then deal with it from the point of view of fiscal management as to how to fill that gap, Mr.

Chairman, so that we don't have from time to time high periods of unem ployment so that we can modify, if we can't prevent, the out migration that we have witnessed over the last two or three years in this province. Now that capacity, as far as I'm concerned, is not available to the Min ister of Finance, it is not available to the Premier of this province, because of a hangup on their ideology, and that is that we're going to leave it all to other people to make the decisions.

The economic decisions are not going to be made by the Government of Manitoba or the people elected, but are going to be made by private entrepreneurs, notwithstanding their effects on the total economic clima te of this province. That is the flaw in their mode of operation, Mr. Chairman. lt seems to me that the Minis ter of Finance should be in a position today, to say that we know that there is going to be $2 billion of capital expenditures next year, or in the next two years, and these are the areas of expenditures.

List the corporations that are going to bring in new capital, to create new momentum, -( Interjection)- Yes, five-year plan, I have no probl em with that, Mr. Chairman, but certainly a one-year plan. You know, the Attorney­ General is talking about a five-year plan. He doesn't have a one-year plan, Mr. Chairman. All the Premier does is shrugs his shoulders and talk about Marxism whenever someone suggests the idea that the government ought to be involved and accept the responsi bil ity for what is taking pl ace in the

Thursday, 19 March, 1981 economic conditions of this province. But no, that is not the posture. Mr. Chairman. They are allowing the depopulation of this province to carry on, Mr. Chairman. They are ignoring the fact that the interest rates of today are such that are unb earable to most busi nes smen. Mr. Chairman, there are some policy options that the Government of Canada has in this area. But heavenly days, I haven't heard the club of - is it now seven or eight or six - I don't kn ow what th e club is. (I nterject ion)- It's eight now. Well, whatever it is.

I haven't heard them argue with the Government of Canada that there ought to be a change in policy with respect to interest rates in Canada. What is the Min ister's position on int erest rates? What is his recommendation to the Government of Canada, Mr. Chairman? MR. JORGENSON: When I'v e got money in the bank I want them to be high. When I'm borrowing money, I want them to be low. That's my policy. MR. USKIW: You know I recall not too long ago, reading an

article written by Professor Bellan, where he argued the proposition that it is not a bad trade­ off to impose exchange controls, that yes, our dollar may fall by one point or maybe one-and-a-half, but in overall terms, that act would be beneficial to Canadian bus in essmen and to the Canadian economy. Now I don't kn ow whether he's right, Mr. Chairman . I happen to respect the fact that he's a learned person and has studied in this field and there are others. Mr. Chairman .

But certainly you would think that the Premiers of this countr y would sit down with the Government of Canada and look at the qu estion of current inter est rates as a dis aster as to its effects on the people of this countr y, whether it is in the area of entrepreneurship, or whether it's in the area of the cost of mortga ges on their homes. In either event, it is a di saster for the people of Canada.

To sit there and not be able to answer one of th ese qu est ions, not to indi cate what the gov ernment 's posture is, or polic y is, not to be involved vis-a-vis the Government of Canada on this question at a time when tens of thousands of people are in serious financial di fficulties, Mr. Chairman, is irresponsible, to say the least. I know the Member for In kster the other day tried to goad the Mi nister of Finance into a statement, and got nothing, except Saunders Air craft, Flyer Coach.

What has that got to do with 18 percent interest rates that have been with us now for almost two years, on an off and on basis. (I nt erject ion)- Yes, that's right. The Member for St. Vital is correct. double-digit inflation, oil prices, the whole gamut of national issues have not been dealt with by this government in any meaningful way. They have not represented the interests of the people of Mar.itoba, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1) - pass; (2) - pass; (b) - pass; (

c) Admini stration:

(1) Admin istrativ e Services (a) - pass; (b) - pass; (1) - pass; 2. (

a) Salaries - pass; (b) - pass - the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman . I wonder if the Min ister could giv e us an explanation as to the increase of expen ditur es in that area. 1893 MR. RANSOM: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if you could just advise me as to which point you travelled there. MR. CHAIRMAN: We are on Item (

c) Admi nistration, (2)(

a) Salaries. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, ther e are some incr eases in the salaries of course being paid and there was another person recruited within that area I believe. The members will notice that the incr eases for salaries generally are greater in the Estima tes this year than last becaus e of the two-year salar y agreements so that the actual figure is known. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the overall incr ease in the expenditure is about $1 20,000 for that item so it must in volv e more than ju st one salary, one additional staff person.

ROYAL ASSEN T ACTING DEPUTY SERGEAN T-AT-ARMS (Mr. John Wilson): His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor. His Honour, F. L. Jobin, Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Manitoba, having entered the House and being seated on the Throne, Mr. Speaker add ressed His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor in the following words: MR. SPEAKER: May it please your Honour. The Legislative Assembly at its present Session passed a bill which in the name of the Assembly, I pr esent to Your Ho nour and to which bill I respect fully request Your Honour's Assent: No. 15 -

An Act to amend The Landlord and Tenant Act. MR. CLERK, Jack Reeves: In Her Ma jesty's name, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor doth assent to this bill. His Honour was then pleased to retire. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono u rable Mem ber for Radisson. SUPPLY - FINANCE (cont'

d) MR. CH AIRMAN: Commi ttee will come back to order. Item under discussion is Page 58 of the Main Estimates, Department of Finance, Resolution No. 61, Item (

c) Admini stration, (2)(

a) Salaries - pass. The Honourable Minister. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I though t the honourable member first of all was referring to Item 1 (c)(2)(

a) Salaries and I gave the details for that. 1 believe then he was referring to the item of $492,000 as compar ed to $370,000 which of course inclu des some of the salaries that I just referred to as well as those in Admini strative Services. Then there is an incr ease in the position for an Ins urance and Risk Manager which is included in Salaries, Item on (2)(

a) as well and an Admin istrative Analyst. Within the Other Expenditures there's an additi onal $20,000

Thursday, 19 March, 1981 included there that is related to the risk management position, so that when those items are totalled I can assure the member that brings us to the difference. MR. CHAIRMAN: (a) - pass; (b) - pass; (2) - pass - the Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, before we pass Item

(2) Admin istrative Policy Branch, I just wish to remind the Honourable Min ister that I believe it was yesterday I had asked him about a grant that was under I think at that time it was Interim Supply, but the same question holds true for this item. I'd asked him two qu es tions, one dealing with the matter of education finance and that I will from hereon in I'll proceed with that matter in dealing with the Estima tes of the Minis ter of Education because it became apparent today that the problem lies not with my arithmetic but rather the Minister's English .

The other question which I had put to the Min ister yesterday deals with the matter of criteria and regulations governing grants, a whole host of grants that