Volu me 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIATY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND . 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, MAY 27, 1976 Number 72 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER ,..,

}'ay 27, 1976 Tape 2956 The House met at 2:00 P.Y. ~'r. Speaker in the Chair. STATEt-!ENTS BY 1-'INISTEP.S : The hon. the Pre~ier. PP.E~'IER ~'OO~ES : vr. Speaker, first of all I have two statements IB-1 here but they do overlap. So if I am permitted what I will do is give the one statement and incorporate it with notjce one within the other. First of all, Sir, I am pleased today to inform this House of a number of major changes in the senior public service in the Province cof ~et..foundland and Labrador.

I also wish to clarify at this tiJT1e govern!"ent 's intentions tvith respect to the or11ani.zation of changes in the nepartment of Consu~er Affairs and ~nviron~ent and in the ~epartment of rehabilitation and ~ecreation. Govern~ent has decj~e~ to retain as a separate depertl"ent the ryepartwent of ?ehabilitation and recreation.

Some months a~o there waf' ar examinati.on of •~hether or not the cepart'l'ent shoulcl be dj_sbanc:1ed,and a final decision has been made that because of the broad range of sensitive social programmes which the department administers it should be retained as a separate entity ~ithin ~overnwent. The ~epartmer.t of ~and n currently has a budget of almost $40 million. In terms of Etaff it is one of tte largest ilepartments in all of governtl'ent,t-'ith over 1,100 employees.

The depart~nt has been placing particular e!"phasis towarcs the needs of special categories of citizens, such as youth, h<mi'Icappec persons of all ages, organized sport and the elderly. It is attempting to brjng into prominence the potential of the Province's youth and senior citizens. Since the establ ish!11ent of the "epartr.- .ent of 'Pehabil itation and recreation !"'ore pr1 or:lty has been given to these groups for special nee~s.

It is the firm bel:!ef of government that the programmes which have been developec in accor.pl ishing this re-emphasis on these groups ~··ere ll'ace possible as a result of the clear priority given to a separate department. 8860

"lay 27, 1976 Tape 2956 IB-2 J>FT.l'IE". }'00PF$: Government does r.ot intend, !'r. SpeaJ.-er, therefore to jeopardize in any ~1ay an organization which runs such vital institutions as Exon Pense, the Royles Home, and the hoy.s and girls traininr hol!'es,to name. a few. The govern~ent firmly believes that those c:l.tfzenl' served t:y the Tlepartment are simply too i1"1portant to allo'" govern1"1ent to de-emphasize :In any '"ay its consciousner;s of their i~ortance <md vaJue in NeHfoundland society. "oclern 1 i.fe has createc' an era of specialization.

It '"as for the purpose of provicling special attention to these special groups the department was originally cot1ceived some three years ago. ~\That was c] early seen as an identified neerl three years ago is stlll a need today and perr~ps even more so f.iven the ev~ry increasing complexity o~ society. The danr,er of a loss of priority if the activities of Rehabilitation and ?ecreation were comb:lned with those of other departments has convincec' government to continue wj tb its establ ishl"ent .

Govern!'lent :!ntenc's to re-emphasize the interaction bet~·een the T.:ehabilitat:! .on and "ecreat:lon and intends to keep the structure of the departl'lent intact "'•i.th e.n Assistant neputy ~·in~ster of 1'ehah:f l:f tat:! .on, "r. "ass K:lnr at present ,and an assistant neputy l':lnister of l'ecreation, r·r. ron Johnson. I a:'· extreT"ely pleased to announce the appointment of a ne1v deputy l'!'.inister of ~ehabilitation and l'ecreation. He is ~'r. rHhert Pi.ke,presently the assistant fleputy Yinister in the Department of Education. f'O>'E l!'IN. I'El'3RJ>S: Pear, hear! Pl'E''IEJ' }'11fJ!'F.S: }'r.

Pil~e, r•r. Speaker, brinr,s to the job a 1,•ealth of ad~inistratjve and ecucational experience which the government feels conficent w:ill en<>.hle him to reali:>:e the act:l.vities of the department in the short run and accompljsh their cnroing objectives in the lone run. "r. Pike is a past presic:1ent of the Ne1·'foundlanc1 Teachers Associatjon and has broad experience in the field of 8861

Hay 27, 1976 Tape 2956 IB-3 Pl'ENIER 1'0C'lRF.S : erlucat:!on and related social matters. The second -announcem~nt I had, Hr. Speaker, which is incorporated in here - and I waul~ prefer to read both at this t'me - is rep;ard:l .ng the Labrac'lor Services. 0ne change that t>ill be macle in the department structure is that the niv:!sion of Labrador Services will he transferred to the !1epartment of l'ural l'evelopment. ur. !'flee }'artin has been appointee' as special advisor to the I':lnister of ~'ural Development on services to Labrador '"ith the status of an assistant deputy minister.

Yr. }'artin <dlJ he in charge of integratinr, the Labrador Services Divis:lon - ....:'101-'E HnN. }'E}!EEPS : T!ea r, hear: Pl'El'IEJ' YOOPFS: - into the Department of "Pur a] '"level opment and in formu1at:!np, a net'' structure for a proposed L<l.hrRdor nevelopment Corporation or Board which in time will replace the LRbrador Services nivision. '·'r. Vartin is •·1ell known to the peop] e of T.abrador, hc>ving represented the Labrac'or r:icling in the Pause of A,;se!"b] y. 'fl-te government believes that this move ••:Ill resnJt in tNtjor improvements :In the services of l,abracior. To elaborate on that, '· ~·r.

Speaker, it has been recognized by my govern!'1ent s;nce thE' early cl.ays of our assuming off:l ce that the unique and sped al probJ ews affecting the col"!Tlunities of Coastal Labra<lor requirerl special anstJers.

According to a royal cowmission on Labrador when H l·las establ ishec1 to advise governwent on the best course of action 1 one of the recom!"'enclations contained in the com!T1ission's r<!port Has that a development corporation be establ:lshec1 to pro!'lote ancl rl:lrect the nevelopl"ent of Coastal Labrac1or· resources and to assume responsihi J It~' for those activ:l.t1es now con<lucterl by the Tlfvision of Labrac1or Services of the Pepartment of nehahilitation and Recre~tion. Last year we initiate<'! action which would establis~ such a corporation.

It was founrl that the structure and ro]e of the proposed body was not entirely acceptable to all groups there in roastal Labrador. '\Te therefore nelayecl . implementation of this changem•er 8862

May 27, 1976 Tape 2956 IB-4 untU such t:!:ne as a more suitable structure coul~ be agreed upon. We are now prepared to move forward again 'ldth this programme. I '~''ish to annotmce effective immediately the transfer of the ~epartment,~>'hich I have just recently announced,and in conjunction 1>1:!th this transfer we have retained the services of ~'r. Itike J!artin as special advisor to the m:lnister. !'luring this time it will be ~·r. 1-'artin 's duty to assume c:Hrectionnl and operational control of the rlivis:lon and to prepare for its phase out "'hen the new corporation is established.

It ~>'ill be ~r. !'art in's primary responsibility to act as liaison bet'l~een the government and the communities of Labra~or preparatory to the setting up of the Labrador Development Corporation and to negotiate its terms of reference,and guidelines for a corporate structure which will be acceptable to all parties concernerl. I vTOuld like to emphasize that we will "'elcon-e the co-operation of all groups or agencies concerned with Labraclor and particularly the r.~embers of the Rouse of Assembly who represent the Labrador d:l stricts. Further, J'lr • .

Speaker, I would l:!ke to reiterate government's intention to proceed with their creation of a Department of Consumer ft..ffairs and Environment 'IJhich will re-emphasize the important aspects of consumer affairs in this Province. Ler;islat:lon will be introduced into the House of Assembly during this session, I will be giving notice this afternoon, changing the role of the department from Provincial Affairs and Environment to that of nepartment of Consumer Affairs and Environment.

Within government the strengthening of the consumer affairs activities wUl take place 'l~:lth the abolition of the exist:l.ng Consumer Affairs Bureau and the appointment of an assistant neputy I Y:l.n:l.ster of ronsumer Affa:lrs to run the total consumer affairs programme v!ithin the Province. In-addition an Advisory Committee on Consumer Affairs report:f .ng directly to the minister will be established t~ich will include representatives of government, industry and 8863

~'ay 27, 1976 Tape 2956 IB-5 PP.ID!IER ~~OOFF. S : organized consumer ~roups . The role of this co~ittee ~1 be to continually monitor rlevelopwents in the Cons~er Pffai r s field to ensure that povern~nt is rea dy to deal speedily with all aspects of this very in:port .ant area. The appointments to the board will be announced withjn the next few weeks. Further, }'r .

Speake r, when the bill is illtroduced into the House then• ,.,ill be far moz:e elaboration on the f.\mction of that department. lli:th respect to the oreanizational ch;mges in the T)epartmenr of C'onsurner Affairs and the Env.ironment 1 I am happy to announce the appointment of; ~·r. All iste T Kinstran as the ne ... • deputy minister of the depart~nt. Hear, hear! .•

May 27, 1976 Tape no. 2957 Page 1 - mw Premier Moores. Mr. Kinsman is presently Assistant Deputy Minister of the Department of Public Works and Services, and has been employed in the public service for twenty-five years. He has proven himself in that time to be a very capable manager and government has no doubt that under his direction the department will meet government's expectations of it. He replaces Mr. Gerry Malone.who has been appointed the Chairman of the Agricultural Products ltarketing Board replacing Mr. Clarence Badcock who has retired on grounds of ill health.

Government plans to expand the role of this marketing agency into one which will service Newfoundland producers in more than just the field of agriculture. I also wish to announce the appointment of Mr. Robert Barter, who is currently the Director of the Consumer Affairs Bureau,to the position of Assistant Deputy Minister of Consumer Affairs. It is hoped that the formal change in both the name and role of the department, plus the appointment of Mr. Kinsman and Mr.

Barter, the establishment of the Advisory Board and the other steps which will be coming forward in the legislation will be a well-recognized first step in government's plan to have a properly functioning Consumer Affairs group. Mr. Cyril Downey remains the Assistant Deputy Minister responsible for the Environment. The appointment of Mr. Herb Clarke to the position of Deputy Minister of Forestry and Agriculture has already been announced, and government is presently looking for an Assistant Deputy Minister of Agriculture to head up this important resource area. In addition, Mr.

Wynn Haynes has recently been appointed Assistant Deputy Minister of lfunicipal Affairs and Housing,.Technical Services Division. Two other senior vacancies in the service will have to be filled as soon as possible as a result of the recent resignation of Mr. Robert Olivero as Chairman of the Public Service Commission, and Mr. Clarence Keeping as Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Mr. Speaker, I expect both positions to be filled shortly. SOME HON. ~mMBERS: Rear, hear! 8865

May 27, 1976 Tape no. 2957 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Premier's statement amounts to quite a potpourri of announcements affecting, both the structure of the government and the staffing or the appointments to senior positions. And let me deal with tl.e latter aspect first. I welcome in behalf of my colleagues the appointments. I think the men whose names the Premier has announced to the House,or whose appointments the Premier has announced to the House.are excellent men and excellent choices for these positions. Mr.

Gill Pike is well-known to members of the House, a former president of the NTA, formerly - was he superintendent at Herdman? - MR. SIMMONS: School principal. MR. ROBERTS: - school principal at Herdman Collegiate in Corner Brook. Mr. Alister Kinsman is a long time public servant, a man whose record is of probity and of devotion to duty and of very high class public service. Mr. Haynes, I believe, is a long time public servant. Mr.

Clarke, whose appointment was earlier announced, although he is a relatively young man, has served with some distinction in the Priorities and Planning Secretariat, and I know will be an able deputy minister in what is a very important department. We wish them all well, and needless to say, Sir, we look forward to workin8 with them, both in our present capacity and in the very short fullness of time in a slightly different capacity. Mr.

Speaker, the two other matters which the Premier dealt with, as I heard them, or as I understood them, were first of all the restructuring of a department or a department or two; and secondly the decision to move the Labrador Services operation from St. John's to Labrador. To deal with that second matter first, Hr. Speaker, we very much welcome that. I think it is a terrific step forward. I will reserve judgement on whether Mr. Michael Martin is the man to head it up. I respect Mr. Martin and served with pleasure with him in the House of Assembly here. He sat where the gentleman from 8866

May 27, 1976 Tape no. 2957 Page 3 - mw Mr. Roberts. LaPoile Q1r. Neary) now sits and sat there for, I think, two or three sessions until he gave it up and resigned. I have no knowledge of his executive ability, and so I will reserve judgement. I will say, though,that we wish him well, and I know I speak for my colleague, the member for Eagle River 01r. Strachan),and I certainly speak for myself as a member whose district includes Labrador when we wish him every success.

The important thing is to bring those services closer to Labrador, and I am not sure whether the Premier spelled it out, and we will have time to debate it in any event, becauae the NLSD is far more than just a retail operation. That is an important part of NLSD's operations but only a part. NLSD in many wavs in the government, particularly in the area from Rigolet, well now including Black Tickle : to the South, but Rigolet North to Nain.

I believe it is of the utmost importance, Sir, that h~SD be moved closer to the peonle it serves and also be made infinitely more responsive, and I hope for a start, Sir,that ~ir. Michael Martin in his new role as special assistant to the minister will be stationed in Goose Bay. It wdnld be unconscionable and quite wrong in everv way if he were to be stationed anywhere else than in the Goose Bay - Happy Valley area, and I think that that would be the sign that the steps are more than cosmetic.

And I think anybody who is the least bit concerned with Labrador, as the Premier is I am sure, and as the gentleman from Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) is and as all of us are, would feel that that is an absolute essential. The people of Labz:ador, Mr. Speaker, will look upon this, I am quite sure, as being an important symbolic step, and it would be a grievous error indeed if Hr. :!',artin were to be stationed here in St. John's. He should be living in Happy Valley- Goose Bay,·living there permanently. His office should be there.

He may have to come back and forth down here to do business, of course, but the airplanes go back and forth, You know, 8867

May 27. 1976 Tape no. 2957 Page 4 Mr. Roberts. there is an extremely good service to Goose Bay - Happy Valley and, of course, we do have telephones and telexes as well. So communications are relatively good. The important thing is he be there, be on the spot, be seen to be there and that he listen to the people involved. Mr. Speaker, the other aspect of the Pr~ier's announcement is that we have had yet another restructuring of the government. I have lost track of the numbers of restructuring since this administration took office.

I recall,with pleasure and sadness mingled, the announcement made by the Premier in the cabinet chamber here, one floor below us, three or four years ago when he announced, as I recall his words, that his announcement of that day was the most important made since Confederation. And when all the hullabaloo had disappeared all it was was the addition of yet another three or four ministers, three or four deputies, eight or ten assistant deputies and other odds and sods onto the public payroll, and nothing more than that came of it, absolutely nothing. 3REM.IER MOORES; MR. ROBERTS: What was restructured today?

The Premier asks what they restructured today? We have had for several months a commitment from this administration that the Recreation and Rehabilitation Department would be wiped out. Whether it was a good thing or not I will come back to, but we have had an actinr minister. That den&rtment has not h"rl a minister, Ur. Speaker, since the hon. ~!r. Doyle, as he then was, !tr. Tom Doyle -whose brother, by the way, died quite tragically, and it j s a matter of sadness -but when Mr. Tom Doyle lost the election in Twillingate to the present gentleman from Twillingate (Hr. Smallwood), Mr.

Doyle, af course, resigned as a member of the cabinet, as a minister, and the department has since that time been without a minister. It has been presided over on an acting basis by the gentleman from Kilbride (Mr. Wells). Well, Hr. Speaker, you know, we have had all these structuring and restructurings, and I am not sure that they are very important. I think this government, Sir, has shown themselves far more concerned with 8868

Tape no. 2957 Page 5 - 1IIW !olr. Roberts. structure than with substance. And I think that is a very bad failinyindeed. And when all these bills came before the House two or three years ago we, for our part, Sir, put them through without any debate at all, because we felt then they Here of no substance. MR. CROSBIE: MR. SPEAKER: :!R. CROSBIE: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order has come up. This is beyond the rules that govern replies to ministerial statements.

Beauchesne makes it quite clear that a few comments are able to be made, and requests for clarification, but the hon. gentleman has n~~ launched into a speech, a debate on this whole subject. MF.. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am glad that the minister has finally raised it publicly instead of whispering to the Speaker in an underhanded way as he has been for the last five minutes. And let me say, Sir, tl~t I am very much - MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege. MR. P~BERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am speaking to a point. MR. CROSBIE: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR.

ROBERTS: There is no point ~ HR. CROSBIE: A point of privlege. HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, there is no point of privilege there. MR. CROSBIE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: ~T-- SPEAKER: I rise on a point of privilege. Order, please! Sit down! Order, please! When a point of privilege is brought up even in the course of a point of order, the Chair has no choice but to hear the point of privilege before returning to the point of order. MR. CROSBIE: My point of privilege is this, 8869

Hay 27, 1Q7f Tape No. 2958 •nr -- 1 l.ffi., CROSBIE: a charge or allegation has just been nar~e th;qt for the last five minutes r '1ave been w:lispt>ring,or attempting in some subterranean manner to influence the ')p~a.ker. ''m~ th~t i.s a c~arr;e that is certainly a breach of the privilPr,es of this !louse. It is untrue. It is not factual. ! have not as much as lool:.cd at the ~pea],_er, '"inked at llfm or ~Jhisnered at him, not in the last five minutes or the last twenty minutes. }!r.

Speaker, as a r1ember of t'le rouse I want to have t 11e privilqres ,.,f' thr House ol:Jserved lt iP a false charge and. shoulrl be ~!i~blra~m immediately; and it is an insult, not only t!1at it j::; a nositive insult, it is an insult to the ~pea~:er to suggest that anyone. ~mulcl be in so1:1e suhterranean way at tenrting t:1at, he T",:!r;ht be infJ uencecl by some sul:lterranean '!leans. ·~. P.f'IJIEP..TS: "r. Speaker, may 1 lwve a "orc1 -­ ~~ S'PfA'ITT'.: The hon.

I.ectder of the rJpposition. 'H1, R0BFRTS: "'irst of ct1', Sir, let me <lea} <-rith t'1r sF>r.o"'\1 co11t'llent first,that it ts somehor·• an insult to the S~e~lcer. The only insult to the Spealrer Poulr' 1··<" if the Spea].-_er Her-e to l1c;Pc' the suhterrane>'m .'!nr1 unrlerhanc 1 F>r1 '1h:f Sf'~eYS of the hon. ~ontl P.111<'!n fy-nm St .. To]'n 1 S l'e<lt ('·'r. C:msb:!.P). The s,.eg,ker,as ah-1ays a npraf:on 0f :>'!'ol-itv 'lnrl nf rectitnC!e,ignnred t!v .. ";.on. ['ent~e~~n unt1"! thP hon. f"~~tJ'"'~D-n c1-t,1 the r1.n:11t th1.r?; nne'! ndsert " no:ITJt c-f orner. So so .,,Jrh for that.

SP~npil]y, <::fr, T marte no allegation the hon. gentler>an ~1nr1 infJuenceU Your Honour. I made ar- allegation ~i,llch T ~;tan•, '''! 1'ccnuse it is factually correct , for t11c 'ast sovernl T'\i"1utes, a:1d my colleagues here witnessed this, t:1e :\o;,. r:c•ml• c;r fer St •• 'oLn 's \!est ('lr. Crosbie) wns whisj)crin:; over at Your Hor,our sayinv point of order, is this in order nne' such worde- perfect~ y audible to , 11 of t~1is or, this side ancl I have no unuht to his col] eagues. And, ;rr. Speaker, that is true so there in itself disposes of any point of privilege and Er.

Spca 1•:.er, it is also most improper conduct on the part of the gentleman from St. John's ;!est, The gentleman from St. John's West, .Sir, if he has a point of 8870

"ay '!7, 197~ Tape ~!o. 2"53 ~!It. CPJlSBIE: order to raise should raise it in the nornal ~nd approprie~te 1-ray. rurthermor.e, '1r.

Speaker, on a point of privilege; you lrnm~,~~e have got to end this nonsense of !10n. gentle!'!en thinking thev Cil"l r;ain thE' floor by uslng the magic rubric , " point of priviJer,e~ Beauchesne is quite ciear that Hhere a point of p-.:ivilege is raised, the member. raises a point of priv:!.~.ege~ asl's Your. l]oT'our :i" there is a pri!!ta facie cRse,and il: Your Honour so rulecl t'1en the '1on. gentleman must be prepared to move. t'Je appropriate motion,\.rhich is debatable, Sir, and t'1e ,debate t~1e01 :1ep,ins until the n:1tter is disposed of in the norr.aJ. and appropriat~ ~:ay.

There is no point of privilege in f"Y subtdssicn, Sir.; the han. rent] en:m did in fact attempt to influence Your l{onour. vonr "onour properly and r:igot"ously rejected hir. and then. the han. ~entleT'an. did 1>.•hat he s}10uld have done at the outset, na!!'cly re~ise.c-1 a noint of order which could be discusser', Yol!r Honour twuld cleci,!e,anrl thnt ~~oul-! disoose of the "lattet".

S'T<r: 1!0N. ~I"R"'11rPS: "c"'r: Jcear.! 0n the TJO:t::-tt of pdv1.1ege; it :!.s not !nfrN•ttel"'.t that merthers on a ~t>cal'er 's left or a Speaker's ri f..'~ l t dH s:1y ir. a soft voice, ''l'rder, orde,.-!" or, "Is this in orrler?", 01:" "The hon. gentleT!'.an should be in order., " or t]li.S ('T t'l,rtt. _a_nd '":1!J_e it is not a custom tlhlch is n<'cessarily he1 nf11l to t'H' M..~ir it certainly is not unusual nor is it in ny opintnn :1 bn~ach of priv:llt>re. So I I•'OUl cl not considP.r. thilt therf' hcos he en :~11y hreach of rriviJ e>ge.

"T:~P.re certainly 11"-!'l nc> e.ttenrt, to 1:1y 1·nf''·'J P.n~>Pl nf any attell'T't to influence the rn.air nntl this caJ.l:tnr. hv ?. l'"Proh<>r of "nrcJ.er, nr-'<"r!" nr askin--: rhPtorically, "Is this in ordpr.?" :Is 110t in my o11·h~. ('tn ~ '>r~;oc-'1 of 11riviJe":"· Pe ""'"e no~· '>ac, 0n thE' poi.nt of orrler n.nd the hon.

T.,lltlr>r. of the Onnos~ t:f.C'ln ••co.s s11ealdn~. ~'11 .• RO"R'I?P'I'<;' T h:vl c'1s"f':"P.<1 o·f tJ,e- hon. p;entleman 's po"!.nt :Jh,ut attP.mpting to influence the Speaker and all that nonsepse, now let rr:l"' deal ~rith th0 ot...,er point he nade on his point of order, Sir, 1o1hcn 8871

Tape! No. 2~Sf.! N!! - 3 ''!R. R0'CFR"'S: he felt I am going over t'le line from comment into debate. That line, Sir, is like the line between genius anJ insanity; it is thin and it wavers, but Hr. Speaker, I submit - ''n. :JI'\ODY ·. "fR. 1l.0:31'P.TS: T:1at !!lakes it very clear cut. ves, '1r. Speaker. Hr. Speaker, han. gentJeY.J.en opposite are a1·mre of that line because they have some first­ hanC: knOll],edge of one side of it, not the other. 'Tr. 'Speaker, tl1e point \~hici1 I make is that w!Hlt I an saying is in co=ent unon the Premier ''ho re>ally made, as he l1ims.:!lf said, more th:m one statement.

If my remarlcs were to he classed as cle::.ate, Sir, if I were clehating this statement, I woulr' be ir.l:initely more vec1ement, I Hould give r,ore reasons, I am merely maloinr, a feu collltT\ents, and I submit tl1at I s:1ould he allo•:erl to conclude my Ee~1 col'lrlents. The result of this interruption b:; the gentlem.:m from St. John 1 s '!est ("r. rrosJ-.ie) )1as been to consume another ten minutes of t!1e House 1 s time, all tr: no point. I submit there is no point of order, Sir, and I should he allowed to continue anrl to conclmle my remarks. SI'\''F Tl'1li. '.! f~'ffiE?.S: Hear! !)ear! '"?.

SJ>T<:AY.EP..: On the point of order brought up by the hon. "inister of ' !ines anu F.nergy, there is no disputing on either sic1e the rule Hhich allows cements and a request for explanation which doe.s not allm- .- clebate. It 1muld appear, and I am not asking for verification or not of this, it would appear that the couplP of sentences, ~7h<ltever it 1,•as, t!lc han. Leader of the !lpposition where he gave his opinion on restructur:l.ng in general \'lhile speakinr; on g:l.ving h:l.s vieHs on tl1e government 1 s announcement ~lith respect tc- t~e Pepartment of 'lecreaticn and T'.ehabilitation, it.

"muld seem that his coJ1ll!lents on rPstructur:tnr, in general may well have heen the expressions r:hich gave rise to the noint of order. Certa:l.nly when speakin.<; on this part of the ministerial statement an hon. menber commenting should keep hjs r"rtarl--s with resryect to that particular subject the continuation of the Department of Recreation 8872

~!ay 27, 1976 Tape No. 295S ~CR. SPEAYFP: and Rehabilitation and comments on ~Jhat might have been sairl on it. A debate on it~or indeed debate on the entire restructuring Hhich took place several years ago ~wuld he out of order. A sentence or two in passing reference would be very difficult to rule out of order, a sentence or two in passing reference. J:ut certainly developed discourse which went beyond that would be. ~e hon. Leader of the Opposition. 'fll.. ROBERTS: l·le11 thank you, Mr.

Speaker, and I uas doing exactly v1hat Your Pbnour said I was rloing,which was making a sentence or t1m by ~my of illustrative effect and certainly harl no intention of getting into the area 1'hich Your Honour would have considered to !>e debatP anti \·hich indeed I would have consio:!ered to ~, e debate alt!\Ough I ~.;auld 1 ove to have the chance to do it. The point I uas mn.ldn~, Sir, is that t h is administration seem infinitely more concerned n:! t 1.1 structure than with substance, and that T believe, Sir, i s a very grave failing indeed.

I thinl ~ there is ~ neerl for a Recreation and Rehabilitation Department and I t'!-tink there is a need for a ConsUlller nepartment. Both of t'J.oRro r:\re positions, Sir, ":;rhich. trre have long advocate,' in thi_s !rouse Rncl out~;ide and ' 'e shall support the leg1sl at:! on th2.t ,,iJ 1 nc!1ie vP. thnse en.cls. lkt, '!r.

"real-er • the point I ?1" ll!akinr: tn eomr.~nt i_s t'tnt the governnent have vacillated back and forth, have gone from pillar to :'ost ant! 1,acl: a!:.-d.r..,and he:o:e .. e are nmr tr> eff<'ct having ~ost six "r e:tE:lt :non.tl1<; in the ir.portant !':teJ.c! nf Recreation and Rehabilitation .

T •,,f 11 cm~cl•tc'c 'l!Y reT"ar'·:s, "r. ~p~a::~r, "'" t:ti s ;o.sneet of it by sayiug quite simply that ~Je have too many r.abinet "inisters in t~ t ~.s nrovinre. \~e l~avc too large a r.u·,inet and I voulU '1.ope: t1·L;.t •·rh.•m ti1e !'r~: · : Ler a?points somebody to be the l'lio:-,i!lter,or ash; Hi~ r~onou~ to arrroint so~1ebor!: T-~it ia the Pre!"d er 's rig~1t to nnve HJ1o1!: :1e uish~s in :ds Ca0irlr.t- tll..:t'!: he does not invi.t1~. someboc.~y to joint his r..:~binet unlcs~ one of the present :nemhers of the ca:,iuet retires or resigns. I thin!: t:1" Cabinet if anything, Sir, ~-s too lHrge """". 8873

"";:;y ..... .. ~ ,. .... ~ •. - i '11!" opinion could tak<- ou thE-se ~:tra tlutics, .!iscl,::rl!e t:>cr- atlcc:u ntely ane aru•irably ~tit~out in any ;.•ny ml <!inz to ·.t'l.e cu::-.hersomeness anc' ncec! less tc say to t"•e c:>renlle of t '1e ~rc~cnt r.abinet . 'lr. ~pea' ·c r, t!le proof- of t!lc JlUdding is in the eatin~ . and t :t~ annou.'lcoments m;trle tod::; by the Premier ar~ ~ith<\r zood eati•tr or 1dndo1·1 rlr~<; sjro.r:. He ho!'c, <'ir, t hat t hey are of sul'stance. "' ~' ione t'-~t t hro fi.clr1s of publ:!.c :tcti"ity •1hic!•. are affected 1-y t"l' announcements ~oday will s"o" th<"'se l'>cncfits .

J am pzni cula dy .:~ mdous t!lat the peo?le in t.al: rac!or and t~at t 'll' activities in Labrador show those good effec ts because I beli eve that is a very real problem facing this Province today. Sir , 1,•c welcome the -annonnceroen t s insofar as tlley no , but \1':: do so with t'to note of cautio11 th:>t ·~e h:we hnrl too reany res~ructuriog s nnd not enough suhst:~nce in this :ulrin!stration in the l:~st four and a half or five years . Th:lllk you, Sir . ·~. Sl'"P..'l:l"P.: Tie hon. :"ernl-er for T\.oi.lltn:;:ttc. .• 8874

"ay 27, 1976 "'ape 2959 IB-1 YJl • S~ . .ALU100D: Yr. Speaker, I fine myself being rat'Per s1ngularly uninspired by the statement of the bon. the Pre~ier. I cannot see~ to be able to work up very much enthusiasm for this restructuring or this degree or amount of restructuring. I hope it ~ror'l:s. I hope it w:!ll be useful. I hope it ~' ill be of some value to Newfotmdland. I am not a~ainst it but I ~ust say I cannot get to be very enthusiastic about it. There are, I believe, some very good ~en ,,,hose promotion or appointment the Premier has announced. J wi sb them Pell. I hope they will co all right.

It is always an experiment. I have had a little experience at selecti.np. men and recommending theiT: to my colleagues in cabinet for appoint!'ent, and watching them the!'! over a period of years,an~ some of them turne~ out to be very good and some of them were not all that good. I hope that the hon. gentleman's experience <~ill average up about equal to my o ... "'! in the percentare of success there wHl be in the performance by these gentlemen vhose names he has given us here today.

I have a certain suhstantial amount of s1~pticism on the amount of control, the amount of influence the govern~ent of a Province - well,a Province such as Newfounrlland, I am not thinking of a province such as, for example, Ontario - but a Province such as Newfoundland can have over consumer affairs,H . by that term is meant control over prices of consumer zoorls. Now I lmo~' there are consumer affairs quite other than just the price of p.oods, the retail prices or even who}esale prices of goods, especially good.

There are other consumer affairs with ~~ich a Department of Consumer Affairs can concern itself and about which it can ta1:e some action. I realize that. But I am highly skeptical about how much authority, how much influence the government of a small province, especially if that be an island in the ~in, an isl~nd province and if the part of the Province that is not an island happens to be the Northeast Corner of this contio .ent • ho~· !'!~ch influence that governm!nt of that province can have in shaping and cetermining the price of goods. 8875

May 27, H76 Tape 2959 IB-2 ..l'P.. S'IAALLWOOD: I think those determinations are made in nntario even for Newfoundland and Labrador. They are ma~e in 0uebec. They are made in the 1-Yestern provinces,and precious l:l.ttle control is exercised or exerc:!sahle by the government of this province. a government can only try. In wishing luck to and success to However the gentlemen whose names the Premier has announced,~4Y I say a word about two men ~~o are going out, r.larence Badcock and Clarence Keeping.

I do not think that Ne~vfoundland has been every served in its public service by men r.:ore conscientious, 1110re able in their respective fields and more devoted to Ne~·7foun~. ll'nd 's interests than those t~··o wen, r.J.arence Bad cock, a rlynamo of enerrY and enthusiasm. Re would even expend more energy just taJking than a lot of men expend in the work they do. He was a man of great energy and considerable knowledge and considerable abHHy. 'f'i.s retirement - I regret to hear from the Premier that it is ~ue to i11 health - is a nistinct loss to the public service of Newfoundland.

I atn sure the l'inister of Forestry and Agriculture who has been in that portfolio long enough and the former minister who was there IJ:Ill ar:ree. r.larence Keeping was promoted, I think, by the present Pret'lier. I think he goes out "to•ith a higher office than he had before the present Premier came in. But I can assure the House that under my administrat:lon of Fler r'ajesty'.s government in this rrov:lnce - NR.

S~l.l\LLWOOD: I will not add the worc'!s that spr:!np to my m:!.nd every t:lme I hear the l're.mier refer to the second government of th:!s Province. r· alv1ays trrought there was only one government of Ne,,rfoutldland, the Oueen's government. But evidently there are tHo, the Queen's governrnent and the Premier's governt'lent. I do •dsh the 'Premier would drop that phrase, "Yy government, my government.'' It is not the Premier's government. It is the Queen's government· And it is the Premier's distinguished and remarkable adt'linistration 8876

'!ay 27, 1976 Tape 2959 ~lR. S1·fALL!~Mn: of the Queen's gove~ent. _2'1'. ro Ero:s : The Queen's ministers and the Premier's caucus. Jim ~' c>r g:an seys, ''I pavec the roatls .'' Sorry. 'IT>. Nl!.A y : n.e signs the tenders now too I notice. :r. Spe~ker, the PreMier as hearl of the ad~ . nistr~t j nn, as hea~ o~ the nueen's gove rnment, is losinF two valuable men. I am sure he regTets their goin as much as I do . nut I co •1ish luck. to the others . I hope they 1i1J tum out all Tight. - '~Jf:~~ OF ~OTION: 1e hon. the P remier.

Tl\ -3 ·r. ~ pea l·e r, I p.ive not :Lce that I •~ ill on cor.crrC> · asl: lPa\·e to iotrocluce a !)ill, "hn Act 'l'o Style The tlepartlllent of Prov i nc ia) Ffa~ r'l And !'.nviro!U"ent .s i:e "el!{>rtr.>en t oF C'onsu!"er Affai rs and nv:i.ronl"'ent. •· (3j 1 ::o . 65 ) •m ~t'E.&.KE": !"'. T'~OJW: The hon • t'inJs ter of Finance. ~·r. Speaker, I f.l:lve n<>tice that I "'U on tnf"orrm r ask leave of the hon . Hous e to introcluc:e a l•UJ, •·,,Jt .• ct To J\nend The Liqu or rontrol .'ct , 1~73". (Dill No. 73) "<r . SPEP..>~Er>: The hon. !•'inister of "toes and Energy . 11' , Cll0SBIE : Yr. Speaker.

I ~ive notice that I. tdl] on tomorrow :~sk ],eave of the House to move a bill, ''l.n Act Further To Amend The Agreernen t atifieCI, Confirmecl and .\rlc>ptecl Ry 1\nd Set orth ln. The Sched ul e To The ComJWdore ~':ining rol"pany L iT"itec1 (Agree!"ent) Act. 196R, And l'o l'ake r.ert a1n Statutory Prov is:1nns !"elating To That Ar.ree!"ent . '' (n ll ~lo. 74) '"'· rpO!: RlE: name1 Tha t 1.s the short ti tJ e. hat 1s the lonr title. That is - ~1at is hjs ~~~~~~-Lou ~urphy. That is the Lou 1furphy Act. That is the amendment to I.ou ~·u•rh:v . 8877

'ay 27, 1976 '!'ape 2~59 ~::Jl. . CT>.OSBIE: Also, t'r. !l.peake r, I. as!< leave to introd uce a bill, "An Act To Alrend Tre !'.:tephen ville Linerboat:d ''111 (Arreerent) Act, 1 9 72 . ~ (~ill No . 69) l·'l". SPE/JCT:,: The hon . Yinister of Fduc~tion . IB-4 MR. ROUSE: l'r . Speak er, I give notice thR t 1 will not to~~rrow introduce a hiJl , ''f\r. Act To Amenc:' The l.ocal ~chool Tax Act.'' OHll No . 71). !·rr . SPF.!I!{£1': Jlelations . ~IJ' . I'AY'l'li'.l'T': The hon . ~·ini ster of " nnpower Mel Industrial "r.

Speake r, 1 gfve notice that I 1dll on tooo r r ow ask leave to introc'uce a bill, '"An Act T>especting Labour ~"elations In The Province."' (Rill ~!o . 75). T further give notic e t hat T will a sk Jeave to introduc e a bill , ''lm Act To Control The T'elationship Bet ween J'tr.pl oyers 1\nd El'lp) oyees t~ith1.n The Province And To Provi c'e t!nifo1:111 l'inirnul'l Standards Of Ce>ncl:ltions Of Employment. •· (RHl No . 76). That Jjteral t ran sla tion of that is the Labour !'.tanda r <'s Act. S<''!E HON • ! 'E' 'BEllS : Hear , hea r! ~"!) SPE/'.KER: ~'!' .

POl i~SE/'1': '!'he hon. ;•inister of ro r es t ry Mu Apri cul1:ure. I give notice t hat I ~.'ill , l'r. Speaker , on tomor r oll introcluce a b tl), "An .~ct '!'o .o\menc1 The Forest r ires Act.,. (llill ~:o . 68) . I would J.it-e to be a ble to ab olish thc111 hu t I can only a!'lenc• them. !he hon. ~'inister of Ju~;tice. ~!11 . RH101Al~: ~·r . Speak er, on behalf of my colleatue, the bon . ~L,iS ter of r rovinc ial Affairs and Envir onmen t l &ive notice t hat I wlll on tOIII<ltr ow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To An:end The Haste l'ateri al r tsposal Act . " (BiJ 1 'lo. 7~) 8878

May 27, 1976 Tape no. 2960 ORAL QUEST~ONS: MR. SP~~R The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Page 1 - mw ~m. ROBERTS: Your Honour is very perceptive, very perceptive. ~ir. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Fisheries, altho~gh I was on my way up, Sir, but my colleague nearly trampled me in his urgency. MR. DOODY: That has happened several times. SOME RON. MEHBERS: Oh, oh! HR, ROBECl.TS: Never mind, Your Honour. I can say that the next House Leader on the Opposition side will not be doing that. You can join'Ank', 'Fred'. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the ~nister of Fisheries.

Could the minister tell us, please, wh~t representations he has made to the Minister of State for the Fisheries at Ottawa, Hr. LeBlanc,with reference to the redfish-caplin a~reement entered into in !1osco1~ - was it two or three days past? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I wired the minister requesting a meeting with them, an urgent meeting,referring to the fact that \Ve asked for a meeting on March 29. He did not see fit at that time, because of the Atlantic Provinces Ministers of Fisheries.

But in my telegram I pointed out the seriousness of- the situation, the need for some explanations with respect to the bilateral agreements that are being signed between Russia and Canada; Pchland, Norway, Portugal and this country. I requested an urgent meeting with them certainly before the convening of the ICNAF meeting in Montreal on June 3. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary. A supplementary. The minister did not answer my question, and I cannot rephrase it.

But could the minister tell me whether he has made any representations to the Minister at Ottawa with respect to this agreement other than asking for a meeting to discuss it? 8879

May 27, 1976 Tape no. 2960 Page 2 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTE~: Mr. Speaker, in my telegram I expressed some concern with respect to the agreements,and,again I repeat, I asked for a meeting with them to_discuss it more fully. MR. ROBERTS: One further supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. '1R. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, would the minister undertake either to make the telegram public or table a copy in which is another ~ay of making it public? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Yes, I will. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. the Premier, Sir, if the hon. Premier has some sort of a deal made with the National Tory Leader, Joe Clarke, in connection with the holding of the by-elections in Newfoundland, that the deal is that they will not be held until after the federal by-election in St. John's West? Is there any foundation to this report, ~tr. Speaker? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, the answer is that there is no foundation to that report whatsoever, but it may happen that way, Sir, or it may not. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Sir.

HR.SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Could the Premier indicate to the House when the three by-elections will be held? Give us a time limit. C.,RE!1IER MOORES: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I already have. The by-elections will be held for the three provincial seats a shorter period than the federal by-election. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: --- -- A question to the hon. PremiPr. I was going to ask the same question as the member for LaPoile, but I will go to another one. Sir, is the Premier ready to inform the House what the nature of the 8880

May 27' 1976 Tape no. 2960 Page 3 - mw MR. ROWE: correspondence between himself and Premier Bourassa at this point in the game is,or would it be endangering negotiations which are ongoing? PREMIER ~fOORES: Hr. Speaker, as I stated in my original letter, if Premier Bourassa had given a definitive reply one way or the other or had intended to make public any of the correspondence that we have exchanged,we would do the same thing. I think it is fair, Sir, until Monday, May 31st., until such time as the date we specifi.ed as being the ultvnate for him to answer to our conditions.

I think it would be very wrong to bring it into public debate or public scrutiny until such time as the Quebec Government have had an opportunity to respond. HR.ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, and I ask this question, Sir, with no political motives m1atsoever. SOI1E HON. HENBERS: Oh, oh! HR. ROWE: No, I am sincere and serious about this. Would the Premier entertain the idea of bringing in the motion that his Hous£.

Leader had planned to bring in endorsing the government's letter in order to get the full and unanimous support of this House; bring it in to this House, without debate, and get 100 per cent support of that motion, and wire it off to Quebec to show that we are united in our stand - ~rn.. ROBERTS: HR. ROWE: MR. ROBERTS: MR. LUNDRIGAN: PREHIER HOORES: Have an election. - 100 per cent united. l~ve an election. We do not need an election. }1r. Speaker, I am sure every Newfoundlander and Labradorian, or virtually every Newfoundlander and Labradorian,supports the stand taken in this specific instance. SOME HON.

MEI.fBERS: Hear, hear ! PREMIER MOORES: I think, Sir, that at this time, as I said, if there is going to be unanimity of that sort it should be done after Monday. I do not think, Sir, as it was not done the other night, I do not think 8881

Hay 27, 1976 Tape no. 2960 Page 4 - mw Premier Moores. it would be wise to do it now. I do not think it is wise or non-wise. You know, answering it also non-politically - MR. SMALLWOOD: Why ~!onday7 }1onday is thl! date? PR.EMlER MOORES: Monday is the deadline for Quebec to reply. MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the bon . member for Baie Verte -White Bay. ~1R. RIDEOUT: Hr. . Speaker, I would like to address a question to t he }finister of Health.

In view of the face that the Child Welfare ft~sociation is about to give up the necessary work that they used to carry on in regards to child immunization and so on and 'Pass it over to the Department of Uealth, can the minister tell the House whether or not his department is now prepared to handle that job adequately? And whether or not it will mean hiring more public health nurses and so on to carry out the programme? HR. SrEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. H'R. COLLINS: Hr.

Speaker , the fact that the Child Helfare Association are not doing the ~o.'Ork which they were doing in the past is because of some difficulties which that organization ran into, and we have agreed to take over the function of immunization or whatever ~o.~ich they did perform in the past. HR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . 8882 •·

May 27, 1976 Tape 2961 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. RIDEOUT: The latter part of the question: Hill this in effect mean that the minister's department will have to hire more public health nurses or can it be adequately handled by his present staff? ~m. SPEMZER: The han. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: I understand, Hr. Speaker, that a number, I cannot say all of them, but certainly a number of the nurses and others who have workecl with the Child Welfare Association have been taken over by my :iepartment. Oh, oh! AN !:Oil. NEHBJ.:.R: ~.

SPEAKER: I intimated that the han. member for Twillingate will be recognized next. HR. J. R. Sl!ALLHOOD: Hr. Speaker, might I ask the han.

Premier,in the absence of the clinister of Social Services,whether the statement made by the Minister of Social Services lJhich, of course, obviously was r.tade in behalf of the government, because on public matters ministers are not allowed to make statements except of government policy; In his s tatement to the people of ~~ ewfoundland a day or so ago on t he new rule providing f or a minimum of twelve weeks \Tork before a person insured under the National Emplo)'luent ,\ct is entitled to unemployment insurance, i n his statement that this "auld switch 40,000 persons, I think he said 40,000, some large number of pErsons from unemployment insurance payments over to social ~ssistance - in the one case the Government of Canada paying the full shot and in the other paying half the cost leaving the Province to pay half - in making that statement . did the minister speak for the government if he conveyed the thought that this is why it was done by the Government of CanBda.

It could have that unfortunate result, but surely the minister did not say for the govermaent that this \·Tas why the Government of Canada did what would otherwise be a terrible shabby thing. XR. SPEAKER: TI1e bon. Premier. FRE?1IEP. HOORES: No, !1r. Speaker, I do not think there was any, certainly no intention on behalf of the Federal Government just that for this reason that it was changeC.. The obvious reason that it was 8883

Hay 27, 1976 Tape 2961 PK - 2 Premier !1oores: changed, Sir, I think i.s the fact that they want to tighten up on the benefits on some of the social programmes which some people think have gone too far. I think what the ~Unister of Social Services 1-ras really saying was that the result, in this Province particularly where there is a lot of seasonal work and people who can just qualify for the eight ~1eeks now vJill not be able to qualify for the twelve, but the likelihood is that they may have to request social assistance.

I think what he said, Sir, is that the Federal Government instead of paying 100 per cent of an unemployment insurance programme 1;ill now only be paying 50 per cent of a social assistance programme. '<R. SHALLWOOD: HR. SPEJ>J<ER: HR. SMALLWOOD: A supplementary, Nr. Speaker. A suprlementary.

Hay I ask the Premier whether he has any knowledge more than all of the people of Canada have by listening to reports of the pudget speed\ -h'e did not hear the budget speech, vie heard only or read some accounts of it - has the Premier any knowledge that somet i1ing could be done or something will be done in that matter by the Government of Canada for such a province, and !!lewfoundland is probably not the only one, but such a Province as Newfoundland t~here the amount of seasonal l·lOrk there is, and the large number of persons ;Nho are enga~ed in seasonal work in such a province.

The result is very unfortunate. MR. SPEAKER; The han. Premier. PREI!IER HOORES: Nr. Speaker, we will be meeting at a First Ministers' Conference on the 14th. and 15th. of June,I think it is, or either that or 15th. and 16th.

At that time I certainly, and I know the other Premiers in the country who are affected this way will be bringing representation as forcefully as we can to the Prime f-.finister and to the Federal Government regarding the affect in a regional disparity area so that possibly there can be some formula adapted that will allow the have-not areas to have a better break than on the umbrella pclicy that was announced. MR. SMALUIOOD: Hear, hear~ 8884

May 27, 1976 Tape 2961 PK- 3 i1R. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A further supplementary. NR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, again to the Premier arising out of the same subject matter 1 this change or intent to change whatever it is in the Unemployment Insurance Regulations, has the Premier any figures which would shmv how many reciplents of unemployment insurance there are in Newfoundland and Labrador who have eight weeks but do not have twelve weeks worth of stamps?

In other words,how many people are going to be affected - and obviously it can only be for last year, we do not kno~1 about this year- but has the 'Premier any such figures? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PRE~ITER HOORES: I have not got a definite figure, }!r. Speaker, I have asked for it. I think the Hinister of Social Services what he mentioned was 14 per cent, I think, of the people on unemployment had just eight weeks benefit, between eight and twelve. Now that will affect 14 per cent of the people on unemployment, not 14 per cent of the people.

But I will certainly take notice of that and as a matter of fact I have requested the information myself, I will gladly pass it on to the liouse when I get it. 101 RON • f.!El·ffiF.R : give it to you. HR. SPEAI:I:P.: ~IR. S.A. NEARY: I asked for it two days ago.

If I get it I will The hon. member for LaPoile, I would like to ask the hon. l'nomier, Sir, if the gentleman 1.s in a position yet to tell the House hotv much of the $200 nillion that the Goverm!lent of Canada is allocating for n<ake-1o1ork projects, how much of this does the Premier kuow will be cor.ling to l!etvfoundland this year to create tvork for people \,•ho are unemployed? :'-:R. SPEJlY..E.R: The hen. Premier. PREMIER ~moREs: Mr.

Speaker, that particular amount and other job opportmlities that the bu4get alluded to as opposed to specified, we have not been told anything other than in general terms of probably community employment opportunities, this sort of a programme being developed,but we have none of the detail on it. It is one of 8885

May 27 , 1976 Tape 2961 PK- 4 Premier Noores: the t hings about the budge t that makes it very ciffic ult to r eac t t c specifically because the budget itself is not very specific . It was more of a Hhi te paper to get reaction befo r e the regulations iD the various areas and t he various prograliiiCes arc spe cifically announced. I t is very difficult in that way. And I hope that means that we ~1111 have some opportunity to put in an i nput that can bcncfi t th e Provinc e . 8886 .•

~'.ay 27 > 1976 Tape 2962 IB-1 MR. NEARY: A supple~entary question, Y.r. Speaker. Jlo 1 interpret then the Premier as meaning that this will be a number one priority on the list of priorit:!es for this Province at the First M:!nisters' r.onference to try to get the Ji6n's share of the money to come into the Atlantic Provinces, especially }!ewfoundland, to look at this thing positively ancl create work instead of having people on tvelfare and unemployment insurance? }'!!. SPEAKEr: 'l'he hon. the Premier.

PP.EMIEl' '11C'PT'S: One of the major subjects at the F:lrst ''inisters 1 ronference, 1-'r. f'peaker, is the cost-sharing pror.rammes, the fiscal arrangements bet,veen the Province and Ottawa and obv:lously from where we sit this l:oulcl cer.t<linly be of major iiT'port<lnce to us. ~m. NEA Y : r'r.

Speaker, I have a question for the ~'inister of Justice, Sir, if I could catch the minister's eye there. rraybe while the minister is hav:lng his conversation I will ask the ><inister of }lines and i'nergy :If the minister has received a co!Tiplaint from Bell Island about a fall of groun~ in the number five area leaving a ceep hole in the grou,nd of about fifty feet deep and about fifteen feet Has the minister had a complaint from Bell Island in connection with this matter? If so,what has the minister done about it? JT.. SPEAKEr.: The hon . l'inis ter of Nines and · :energy. IT. CPDSBIE_: __ Vr.

Speaker, I have not received any complaint from Bell Island on that suhject. There may have been some communication with the department but if I receive a compla:l.nt from Bell Island it will certainly be ched-ed out and anyt.hing we can do to remedy the situation will be done. As I say I have been at a cabinet meet:lnp this morning and other meetings and I have not personally had a complajnt. It may be that some functionary in my department has had a complaint. nut if so it '~ill be treated w:l.th the utmost dispatch because, of course, the }~inister of Finance represents that ~!strict.

Anything that happe11s 8887

Fay 27, 1976 Tape 2962 I:R-2 ~'I'. r.ROS BIE: there gets immediate and instant attention. ~ IR. NEARY: ~'r. ~peaker, a supplementary, Sir. I do not know if you can call this a supplementary or not. ts the ll'inister a~vare that this is creating quite a safety hazard,espec:laJly for children• at the rno111ent~ If so would the minister undertal:e to take t"Cmec1ial action as quickly as possible? ~IT'. CP.OSBIE: "r. Speaker, when I have alJ the fl'tct,; 1'md know what the matter is all about then certainly ~ c e will take whatever action the facts dictate.

I cannot accept the hon. gentleman's statement as heing factual. But, you know,if the facts shm,• that remedial action must l:.e taken and if there i!': any <1anger to heal tl t and se.fety, then action w:Ul be taken. "'J'. SPEAKER: The hon. rnembpr for BtJq >;eo-Day J1 1F.spo:! r. 1-'l'. STM>!ONS: A question for the Premier relat:lnr, to his statement about appointments earlier today. The rosition of assistant neputy m:lnister, vocational, now bcin~ vacated by ''r. Pike, iR i.t the r,overn111ent 's ·intention - MR. DOODY: ---- - An application! I thank you for your vote of conffilence.

T.s it the government's intention now to appoint a successor or to phase /out this appointment? ~<!'. SPE.f.!CE!l: The hon. the Premier. The ans~.rer, l'r. SpPaker, is yes. He are lool<inr . at that possibility, the ~ 'in:!ster of Educat:f .on and myself and other peopJe. That 1dll be announced in due t1rne. HP SPEAKER : The hon. member for LaPo1le. _1!1!. NEA"Y: ~r. Speaker, a question for the hon. '·'inister of Justice. Could the minister tell the. House :1 f the ecwernment has yet reached a dec:lsion on whether or not they are goi.ng to assist the St.

John's city council :l.n paying 1Htl f the cost of 111eter attendants? I'P. SPF.Al(Ell.: '!'he hon. ~'inister of Justice • ~rp. HICK~·' AN: The government must assuredly has not t"eached a decision on that. 8888

1-'.ay 27, 1976 Tape 2962 IB-3 t'R. NEAJ>Y: A supple!'lentary, ~·r . Speaker. lfuen can ,._.e expect a decision in connection 1-lith the city council's request to !:ave the governreent pay half the eost of parkin~ ~~~eter attenilants? ''F. SPEA .. '<E'?: The hon. 1'in1ster oi Justice. ~T. 111ClQ'JIJ1: vr . ~peaker, unless that re~uest has co~ to the governreot within the past ~eck-I have to confess bet~~en sittin~ in this hon . Rouse and cabinet meetinl!s every day-there haR been no request wade, not to me. ~ .

SPF.P..KF'f': The hon. l.eade r of the Opposition. '1'. 'ROREl'T5 : "r. ~renker, "'Y que~<tion :!.s for the Pre!":! e.,...

T t is 11 s11hject t!-nt ~·e h;we touched upe>n in th:!s part:!culPr t~ue~<tion per1e>cl once C'T tin ce . r"ulrl tre Pre.,.ier let us lmo1o1 ~+aP.ther h:!!' a~~in:!str~tie>n - to u!'e t~e cor r ect tel"l" - or •meth er any of h:!l' collt>af!'Ues :in t~e cabinet, tl•e f'ueer's 111:!njsters, have submittec! pr"posals to the r.overnment of r.an~ria or to so~ Minister of off.:!cial thereof with Tespect to poRsH•le job cr ent :!on prograiiUJles that could be put inte> effect in this Pro vince tl::!.s )'ear? ~.,. . Sf'EJ\I(Lr>: l'he hon . l're1'1ier. I'PF.~'IEr · ~o»ES: Yes, •·r.

Speaker, is the ans~·er anri d•ere will be many N>re vith :!n the next few ,,·eek!'. lt :!s not just 1o'> creation. T think, Sir, •·hat we a r ~ ta1 1-fng about in our rep~:P.sentation to the fec!ernl government hns !>een 1~hat a:~;eas of opf'Ortun1tv there are, pE>.rtj cuJarlv t:ith re~:1r~s to !'RP..E and now that l'r . Ja111ieson is ~'i:J~ste-r of Industry, Trarle ann rol'Unerce, f'"S~ihty the te~O\Irce tleveloprent oppe>rtun j ties f or job s vi.ll be r,iven what I think is the priority consideration they should be. V". r<.'EEI!TS: A su"Pplementary, l'r. Speaker. 8889

May 27, 1976 Tape no. 2963 Page 1 - mw HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: lfr. Speaker, we are all pleased, of course, that such proposals have been submitted. Could the Premier tell us when they have been submitted? And could he be a little more specific? Would he undertake to make public the details of these proposals? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PRE!ITER HOORES: The answer is, Hr. Speaker, that I do not know the exact dates. I can certainly find out.

I can also advise the hon. gentleman any time he wants any specific type of proposals - but I think what is important is get the DREE - DREE, as you know, Sir, do not take the small proposal as such. What they do is take a resource development area, and set criteria that certain proposals can fall out in. To take up all the specific proposals to DREE would get us nowhere. Certainly it has not in the past, but if we get a terms of reference that DREE can qualify its programme to, then each proposal qualifies to that. That has been our experience, and it is the only way it works. }!R.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Forestry in his other capacity as acting Minister of Public Works undertook on the tenth of Hay to get some information for me, I wonder if he has it today? !' It was a question relating to the amounts of money that had been dispersed to Cabot Group 4 for the fiscal years 1973-1974, 1974-1975 and 1975-1976. I wonder has he got that information at the moment? }!R, SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. ROUSSEAU: The minister is back today, by the way. HR. SIIIMONS: A supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SL"1MONS: I am going to get the information one way or the other. Does the minister have the information though,or is he passing the buck, which? MR. SPEAKER: The hon, Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. }!R, ROUSSEAU: I will check with the minister. SO}{E HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: 8890

May 27, 1976 Tape no. 2963 Page 2 - mw MR. SIMMONS: By the way the answer is not nearly as funny as the way you are handling it. MR. ROUSSEAU: MR. SIMMONS: MR. ROUSSEAU: You know, it is very fine. I appreciate the - That is what you·think. - information that the hon. member requests, But you know, I made a request for it, and, you know, I am in and out so I have not followed it through 1to be quite frank with you, But I >dll check with the minister. I mean that seriously. That is about the position I find myself in. MR. SD1MONS: Okay. That is fine. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I previously indicated that after the hon. member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir that I would recognize the hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: So he may have taken that as assurance and perhaps did not rise< The hon. member for Bellevue. lvell, Hr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Transportation and Communications, perhaps the Premier could indicate to me or to the House when a decision will be made as to what roads will be paved in the Province this year, and what:roads will be upgraded,and what have you?

I might say that the Minister of Transportation and Communications had indicated a month ago to many delegations ~nd so on that an answer would be given long before the twenty-fourth weekend, and the twenty-fourth weekend has come and gone. So, of course, naturally it is only natural that these people are phoning their M.H.A.'s trying to find out what time they can expect some answers, especially, of course, when there is - UR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I hesitate to interrupt the hon. gentleman but I was presuming that his remarks were sort of

preamble giving necessary information, but really he should come to h:f.s question. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, Sir, I think the question came early in the dissertation. I will check with the minister, Sir, 8891

}lay 27, 1976 Tape no. 2963 Page 3 - mw YID11ER :100RES: but I see no reason why within the next few weeks those roads that will be fixed up and paved will be tendered and known. ,of.R. SPEAICB_!: A supplemen .tary. I believe the hoo. gentleman has a supplementary . HR._ C~LAN: Yes, Hr. Speaker. Perhaps the Premier can explain to the House and to all others who read the newspapers why some contracts have been let, and are being let daily for road construction, why some are being let daily and others have to wait? The bon. Premier. PRENIER HOORES: Hainly, Ur.

Speaker, for engineering reasons, for technical reason s In a department it has never been known that all tenders were let on one day. It has always been such that it takes a period of time to get them all let. :nt. SPEAKER: I indicat ed that I "'ould recongize the hon. member fo r laPoile, and then the Leader of the Opposition. 8892

~'ay '27, 1976 '11' - 1 ''f''.. ~lEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier if he has had any communication at all with Price Newfoundland Limited or Bowaters in connection with slow time, down time this year because of the slow paper demand, the slump in the paper market throughout the world,and if so would the PEemier give us some details of it? PREMIER MJORES: Mr. Speaker, the paper market throughout the world may ~t be as good as was anticipated possibly at the end of last year,but it certainly is not in the slump that it was a year ago or nothing like it.

I have written the Chairman of Bowaters asking about the company's policy regarding down time. I will be meeting one of, the principle people of Abitibi and Price next week and I will aacertain from them what their policy is as well. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPRAKER: If it is not a supplementary • then I will pass to the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Tourism who is in the House although he is not - well he is on his way to his seat, it is with reference - MR. SIMMONS: MR. ROBERTS: MR. SIMMONS : MR. ROBERTS: Re has his Labrador tie on.

Has he got his tie on again today? His Labrador tie. The Public Accounts Committee will be finding out, Sir, whether the minister purchased that tie personally or whether it is a departmental one,in which case it should have an asset number on it and be returned to the Department of Public Works each night. PREMIER MOORES: He is a tourist. MR. ROBERTS : The Premier says the minister is a tourist. Well so he is, Sir, but unfortuaately he is a tourist on our money and that is the trouble with it. 8893

May 27, 1976 Tape No. 2964 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, on the 27th. of April I asked the minister some questions about the affairs at the Salmonier Wilderness Park, in particular with reference to some buildings which have been under construction but are not yet completed, and at 'that stage he undertook to get the information. That was a month ago today, Sir. Is the minister as yet in a position to give the House this information? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not.

I have asked my staff to prepare a report for me along the lines a8 asked by the Leader of the Opposition. When I have that report I will cerlainly be able to provide him with the information. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary, MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister,and would he undertake to ask his officials please to hurry it up.

I realize they are busy, I know the minister has been busy,but a month is a long time to get answers to a series of questions that were st•aightforward and I would have thought would have been brought to the minister's attention as they involved what appears to be some - I do not want to use the word,so I will not - but involved some anusual circumstances which I think require investigation and poasibly action by the minister. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I have reminded my staff on two occasions to hurrv it up. I will do it for the third time. MR.

ROBERTS: You might mention the number of deputies that have been assigned to each. MR. HICKEY: I assure the hon. gentleman that we have the situation at the Wilderness Park quite well in hand at the moment,and in my view,and I think it is fair to say in the view of my colleagues, we have taken the appropriate steps to see that the project is finished and finished properly. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear: Hear: 8894

May 27' 1976 Rl.. SPEAKER: MR. FLIGHT: Tape No. 2964 The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. Mr. Speaker, this is a question for the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Unaware that the minister is discussing with Price Newfoundland the new NM- 3 forest management . - and it is going to take some time to work out that - but what I am wondering is if the minister has got an undertaking from Price Newfoundland to salYage the thousands of cords of woei that is still floating free in Newfoundland,because I do not see that as being one or the other'l MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROUSSEAU: The bon.

Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Yes, Mr.

Speaker, if I remember correctly I mentioned it before now so we would undertake during meetings I had with Price last week in Grand Falls when the point was brought up to them, I think they have taken some preliminary steps and it is certainly our intention with Price - I have asked Price and I have asked Bowaters as well - that when the House closes and when the opportunity presents itself these amongst many other issues will be discussed at hopefully a long mee~ing of a day or two with both Price and possibly Bowaters together to get some indication of the problems they have and to give them some indications of what our views are on this.

But in this particular instance of Red Indian Lake the point was brought to their attention and I understand that they would be taking some preliminary steps to rectify it, but they certainly knows our feelings on that particular issue. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Would the minister advise the House if the actual salvaging of the pulp wood on Red Indian Lake and the salvaging of the wood, the cleaning up of Red Indian Lake - and there are thousands of cords involved, fr.ee floating -:fa that tied to any negotiations for long term forest management? 8895

May 27, 1976 Tape No. 2964 NM- 4 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. ROUSSEAU: No. No_it is not, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ttember for LaPoile. 8896

1'ay 27, 1976 Tape 2965 IB-1 ]'P.. NEA!'Y: A question for the Vinister of T'isheries, Sir. The mjn:f.ster is quoted publicly as saying that the minister is cleadly opposed to aJ J mdng the "ussians or anybody else to catch our cap lin. rouJc' the minister elaborate on that statetllent? Has the minister communicated this infoi'U'.ation to ~·r. LeBlanc, the federal ?·'inister of Fisheries? Is this one of the things that the m:fnister w:fll be discussing wHh ~·r.

LeBlanc should they be successful in gettinp; their meeting in Ottawa, not alloHinr anybody ott-er than C=a<"ian ships to catch ccplin of .F our shores? is gettinr at? Is this wl-tat the rointster ':r . ::>PEAKE.,: Tl:e hon. l'iniPter of fisheries. I'P. H. r:AJ'TET': !'r. ~peaker, I have expressecl certain reservations ~-:ith respect to the announcec1 arreel!'.ent between "anDc1a. 1md the T'~SP concerning c.-.apl in and redfish trarle off.

In the absence of nny detailed and specific figures on the ratio of the trac1e oH,~4 · ether how many tons of caplin for a ton of red ftsh, I aT" unable to say - l'T'. 'P013JCP.1'S: r:e ~'ant to l·nm., •'hether it i.s one for one or not. ''P. H. r'A!""'E~': I vould sugr,est to the House, ~·r. Speal·er, it ~dll be rruc 11 more than one for one. It will be much, l'luch IT'ore than that. !lnt certa:inly I have very rrave reservations •rith respect to the a~reerrent.

T have asked the minister in f'tta.,·a to meet '·rith me before the rr.~-:.~F rreetinr:~at ~·,hich tin•e the agreement referred to by the l"l:lnj ster will he ratifie~. I rr..al,e that request on tre basis that J fe.el caplin are very important to the fishery of our Province. Tt seei"S to be rather irC'nic that nm,,, ~'r.

Speaker, '7e shoulr' be reqttirec1 to take strinzent T"easures to conserve our fish stocks a.nd to rep]enish our fish stC'cks,the <'epletion of ~·.'hich has been broufht ahout l"lainly by russia. nm,r that ~•e are on the hanc1 of il!'posinp a 200 l"!i J.e lill'it to give the fish stockR a chance to rebuild, now we are allowinr that country to start on its obvious course to ravage caplin which is a very important ingredi.ent in the repleni.shinp: of the cod stocks and other species of fish. That is ,,,hy I bel:!eve it is imperative that we watch this thin(', very c]osely 8897

"ay 27, l976 Tape 291;5 IS-2 r'l'. 1-' . C"IIR'l'E~': ancl that we thin!< twi ce befo re we ru.1 o1• tha t ~orr of thinr to ~:o c>n . ''r. Speaker , a suppJ e~'>en t nry nues t :lon . Am I interp r etinr the minis t er correctly, tha t the Minis t er feels thet onty rana~inn sh:fps should t ake caplin , no fo r eif!ll ~<hips he

a) lc-.-ecl t o touch our cspJ in Stl"ck at al J . Is r.hat was the !"inistP r is sayi.nr :1 1'1 t"ffect?

Just I')UM l'IS fo r r anacla? · ·r. ~p e al ·;e r, 1 ques t ion t he avail:11Ji l 1ty of sufftc:!ent scien t ific dat a and r esen r cr for the rovernncnt in nrt~>•m to accurate)y clet en- i ne t-.'hat wou ld be t he susta:fn.~hlc '':fel<' or the tnt<ll allN ·er l c c:>tc"l :In our caplil'l stocks. l"hct r nn E~urrestlnr is thnt "'0'\yre r~natl;o shl"ulc' ctve sl"ne srr:lous thnuyht to restricting quc-tns to otl•er countries excert tn this cnuntr'· nne! tc> nur nwn l"isherr.>en - \'T' ~lEArY: 1/e are not catc'ltinr our quota . . ., ·:. rAI"frr _:_ -un t il ~<e are satisfied t h nt t!te steel's are there Rnd th:>t Jw othe r co•t,..trie-; t:tkinr the c<>plin in hur:e quantlties that it will not inte rfe r with ranarla's ~esire ~nd :Intention to rebuild o ther sp~cies inrJuaint the en~ . ''l' ~FAT'Y: "r .

Speake r - _!'T' . fo?EA!t.ET' : The thirty Minute s is u p . '<:' . ::EA"Y: Time r ePl1y f l i e s, Sir.

I)I'TllillS nF THE fli•V: On mot ion of th e hon . ~':! n ist e r of l'ealth , a bill, •·t~ Act respecting The ''et4 f o u ndlan~ Opt ometric Jlssoc:Jation t.nu Coverninr, The "ractice of C'pto!'letry In The Province , ., re;u~ a f:!rs t till'e, orrle r e<' rt>arl a second tiT'C on t OJllorro..-. (Bill No . 57) "n rot ion o( the hon . t'inis teT of JuFtice, a bill, '.'·n ~rt To "elllOve Jlnol"al ies /lnd Rrr or s In The Statute ln~·, '· r ea<' A (i r st tirte, or<,er ecl re:ocl a second t ir>e on tol'lo rro~: . (Bill !lo . 1\/r) 0!' rnction of the hon . t'iniste r of finance , a 1,11], '/ln fc:t rur t her To /'.mend The Net~ found) and In clu st r i:~l l'evelor!N'nt Cor poration Act , ' r ea~ a f:l rs t tili'C , or c'er ec! r ead a seco nd time on t O!"or rot>'. (Bi l l :~o . 72) 8898

May 27, 1976 Tape 2966 PK - 1 Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation Act." (Bill No. 6 7) , by leave, carried. On motion Bill No. 67 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the bon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Strengthen Security Measures In Respect Of Private Property." (Bill No. 66), by leave, carried. On motion Bill No. 66 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Mil. SPEAKER: Order

(1) Address in Reply. The debate was adjourned by the bon. member for Terra Nova. SOME RON • MEMBERS : Hear, bear! MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, it is now very difficult to speak to the generalities of the Address in Reply because, in addition, of course, the specifics of the Budget and the estimates have been dealth with and discussed, hence, Mr. Speaker, having been provided with the generalities and the specifics of the government's plan for the coming year it becomes increasingly difficult to discuss one area at the exclusion of the other. But, Mr.

Speaker, be that as it may with all the sentences, phrases, words and other utterances of government · documents,there is no practical,sound evidence of any real efforts by the government to stimulate the economy of this Province. In the Throne Speech there is no evidence of any long-term plan to come to grips with the severe financial, economic and social problems which this Province will face, thu• giving rise to the ·~endment to the Address in Reply which I will address myself to for the next few moments.

And the amendment, Sir, is as fellows, to amend the motion by striking out all the words after 'that' and replacing them with the following, "This House reaffirms its faith in the future of Newfoundland and Labrador and calls upon the ministry to present to the House and to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador a detailed and specific outline of their goals for the development of this Province and tee means by which they plan to achieve them." 8899

May 27, 1976 Tape 2966 PK- 2 Mr. T. Lush: Mr. Speaker, in its generalities, what did the Speech from the Throne offer to this Province in the way of plans for the future economic development of this Province? What did it tell our people with respect to the present financial status of this Province and of the Province's ability to provide a good standard of living for ita people? Did this Throne Speech enunicate the goals for the development of this Province? And did the Speech from the Throne clearly spell out how these goals were to be achieved?

Even with the knowledge of the necessity fer fiscal restraints, the tremendous necessity for regulating and controlling our economy, did the Speech from the Throne encourage our people to be confident about the future prospects of this Province? Was the Speech from the Throne a document that gave our people new inspirations, new ambitions, and new hopes and new dreams? Mr. Speaker, the Speech from the Throne illustrated the tremendous gap between promise and performance.

It was a stark reminder to the people of this Province that the visions and the imagative ideas of the government, revealed to the Newfoundland people from the pinnacle and the summit of the election mountain, had swiftly and rapidly taken a tremendous downhill slide. During the weeks preceeding the Fall election and durinp the election great promises were announced by government candiiates; the economy of this Province never looked brighter, hospitals were to be built, and expansions made to other hospitals, stadia and other recreational facilities were promised.

No talks then, Sir, of the trobbles at the Come By Chance oil refinery. Indeed the talk there was of expansion. Indeed there was no mention at all of the oil refinery in the Budget-or in the Speech from the Throne. No talk of troubles with the Lower Churchill Development. Indeed the explosions and the eruptions on the Labrador Coast made one believe that the tunnel across the Strait of Belle Isle would 8900

May 27, 1976 Tape 2966 PK - 3 Mr. Lush: pvoceed in lightening speed. No talk of t~ increases, no talk of higher hJdro, electric prices. During the election, Sir, the government was playing the old political game of promising the people of this Province things that they thought they wanted, things which they thought would get votes. No thought was given to delivery or what was possible. The government was guilty of re-enforcing the beliefs of the people in the government as the universal provider. Who then on the government side, Sir, talked of the undesirability of UIC benefits?

Or who then encouraged welfare recipients tc seek employment and to contribute to the growth of this Province? Mr. Speaker, I suggest if we are to make this Province a strong, viable, economic unit of the Dominion of Canada,a number one priority must be the necessity of educating our people to understand what government is all about, the role of government. The task lies with responsible politicians. The attitude of our people must be changed respecting their expectations of government.

Government must be seen for what it is, as policy makers, as decision makers, helping communities to erganize to help themselves, helping people to be contributors to society, to be givers and not always receivers. Sir, this government has not to date taken that kind of leadership. Consequently, Mr. Speaker, the Throne Speech had the result of completely demoralizing our people. Words were introduced into the vocabularly of Newfoundlanders that were heretofore foreign and completely alien, fiscal restraints, restrictive measures and entrenchments, words almost unknown to Newfoundlanders before the Throne Speech.

The government, Sir, called on the people of this Province to be prepared to work hard and to mak• sacrifices in order to help the government in its commitment to stand firm on the control of inflation. Of these tvo, Mr. Speaker, to work hard and to make sacrifices,there remaineth but one, and that is, Sir, to make sacrifices, because the Throne Speech gives no concrete evidence of 8901

May 27, 1976 Tape 2966 PK - 4 M~. Lush: the government's plan to create jobs. The speech, Sir, did suggest that the government was distressed at the high rate of unemployment, and well they might be. Sir, distress, the feeling of distress will hardly create jobs. I am particularly distressed that - AN BON. MEMBER: There is no quorum. A quorum call. MR. LUSH: Yes. 8902

May 27, 1976 Tape no. 2967 Page l - mw XR. SPEAKER (Mr. Young):Yill the clerk please count the House. We have a quorum. The hon. member for Terra Nova. HR. LUSH: It is unfortunate, Hr. Speaker, that so many people feel that the Speech from the Throne is not important enough to stay around to listen to what members have to say about it. ~lr. Speaker, I was saying that the Speech from the Throne did suggest that the government was distressed at the high rate of unemployment. But, Mr. Speaker, the Speech from the Throne contained no stimulating proposals to eliminate the high unemployment.

The speech noted with pride that the Rural Development programme has so far created some 3,000 jobs, and, Mr. Speaker, this is certainly a desirable thing. But, Sir, in relation to the growing work force it does not represent an overly large increase, but that is not to say that we do not appreciate the 3,000 jobs which have been created to date, and I would hope that the minister can create more jobs in this very important area.

And I would hope that the scope for the different types of programme is broadened and made more comprehensive to include more ventures and more programmes that can be useful to many communities. The Speech from the Throne emphasized the fact that the future of Newfoundland depends on its people and resources. It reads, 11 !1y government is committed to an intensive programme of resource development which will build a stronger economic base and will require an individual and collective commitment to work for the colllllon ·good." A noble objective, Sir, but what of the action?

The Throne Speech proceeded to deal for some length on the fishing industry,talking of the necessity for a well-informed system of national management. Well, Sir, that certainly is desirable, but I certainly hope that this Province is prepared to have some input into this national management; that the fishery, it is our fishery, that we have to be concerned about it, and I hope that the government will not just wait for things to happen, but that we, too, will be ready to put some input into a system of national management. 8903

May 27, 1976 Tape no 2967 Page 2 - mw Mr. Lush. The government also talked of pursuing a solution to inadequate landings through joint ventures with large fishing interests in other countries which would permit agreement whereby fish catches would be landed and processed in Ne.foundland. Again, Mr. Speaker, I want to caution the government here. I certainly agree with the principle, but I would hope that when we start those joint ventures that Newfoundlanders will be prepared to take the jobs.

I hope that people from foreign countries will not be taking the jobs in this venture that Newfoundlanders should be taking, and I hope that our people will be sufficiently ready with the skills necessary for this particular joint venture. But, Mr. Speaker, for all its emphasis on resource development,what happened to the fisheries as far as the budget was concerned7 Mr. Speaker, the expenditures for the fisheries this year was slashed and slashed heavily. Yn1at of the plans for other areas of resource development? How about our minerals, and our forestry and our hydro power?

We are told by many authorities that we are fairly well endowed with natural resources. But, Sir, for all our resources our ability to exploit them falls far behind our need for new employment. And, Sir, there is no evidence in the Throne Speech that the government is serious about planning for the future by determining what is the maximum utilization of our accessible resources, and determining what they can produce in the way of economic growth. \,fhat can we expect from our natural resources? How many people can we employ? Can we get more into the area of the manufacturing aspect of our raw materials?

For example, the hon. mP.mber for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) in talking about the fisheries some time ago talked about the necessity and the desire to get into fish processing. Sir, the members on the government side seem to suggest that this was nothing new, and even suggested that there was some difficulty in carrying on fish processing. But, Sir, I think it is something that we got 8904

May 27, 1976 Tape no 2967 Page 3 - mw Hr. Lush. to look at very hard. We got to explore this. It was also mentioned that the marketing was difficult in this area. Sir, this certainly has to be a responsibility of government to try and get into this area of fish processing and to find markets for the kinds of fish that will be processed and the kinds of foods that will be processed. Sir, how about agriculture and agricultural processing? Again I do not have the answers but all I am asking are questions. Are we developing our agriculture to the extent that we should?

Are we looking at any areas of agricultural processing that we can get into? Sir, what can we expect from our hydro power? It is with some degree of sadness on this side of the House that we hear what is happening or the troubles or the difficulties that the government is experiencing with the Lower Churchill. And we do not exactly sympathize with the way they got into the problem, but since they have the problem we are concerned.

I waDt to say that we are behind the government in their battle with Quebec, and we want to get as much from that development as hon. members on the other side of the House, I can assure you. Certainly, Hr. Speaker, we must develop to the fullest our natural resources. We must explore every area to ensure that this Province and that our people are reaping the maximum benefits from our natural resources. But, Sir, we do not kno,., our potential. We do not know what the goals for the development of this Province are, and we do not know how we are going to achieve them. The Speech from the Throne does not say.

The Throne Speech glibly said that the government will call upon the initiative of Newfoundlanders and will ask people from every walk of life to bring for ward ideas and proposals for growth and development. But yet they voted against a Private Member'R bill which asked for a proper channel and a proper mechanism to provide precisely for this orderly and systematic way of collecting the information and the ideas that the government say that they wanted. No, Sir, no evidence that the government is the least bit concerned about setting up 8905

May 27, 1976 Tape no. 2967 Page 4 - mw ~!r. Lush. goals for the development of this Province. It is contented to go on in an ad •hoc ,hi3gledly-piggledy fashion . ~tr . Speaker, '-'hat should our goals be? .\nd how should we go about achieving them? This is what this amendment i .s asldn~t . The terms of referenc e of the Economic Council of Canada 1967 indicated the following basic economic and social goals for \~ anada:

(1) Full employment;

(2) A high rate of economic growth; and

(3) A reasonabLe stability of prices; and

(4) A viable balance of payments; and

(5) An equitable distrioution of rising incomes. Sir, these goals certainly provide the broad general goals for this Province. llowever, they have to be the broad general goals, because the needs of each province will differ, because of regional disparities , and we sh311 have different needs, but certainly t hey give us so_:•te ideas to the kinds of goals that we 'should have . The Nova Scotia voluntary Economic Planni ng Board l968 set out the following goals for ~ova Scotia:

(1) The highest -possible rate of gro'-•th with an equitable distribution of per c·apita income; and

(2) The highest possible leve l of employment . HR. SHALLt~OOD: \~auld t;he hon . member repeat n=ber one? 8906 ~- .•

11ay 27, 1976 Tape 2968 IB-1 l-IP. LUSH: The highest possible rate of growth with an equitable djstributj .on of per capita inco~e. '··'hat reJ ates before that? ~'1'. LUS"!: That was number one. Hhat ,,•as that? ' "P. LUSH: '!'hat was a goal for the econol'lic c1evelopment of Nova Scotia.

Two, the highest possible level of employment;and three, the achieve ment of the highest possible increase in pro~uctivity; and four, the ~evel. opment of all the resources of the Province to the highest point of efficiency;ant'l five, the acbievel'\ent of a cU.mate both economic and poljtical that will encourage the development of new industrjes and expansion of existinp. inrlustdes. t:ertaJnly these l:Jecom.e a little tnare specific and I think l1er< ,,,e can get some i~ea of what the r;oals of Newfound] and slwuld he. rertain]y I believe one of the most important or one t h at shot•ld receive high priority is the hjghest possible level of ell'ployment.

Fe have r,ot to try and create jobs for the people of thts Province. It is absolutely fantastic what can happen to the moral. fiber of the peorJe who are contented to Jive on socjaJ. assistance, who are contented to work for three or four months and. then rece:lve nrc benefits. !,lhat is happening to the ~oral fibre of people who are contented to do this and not work? I do not beJ.j eve that that :1 s a natural tendency of Newfounc:Uanders. I belleve Net-rfoundlanilers t-mnt to v.•ork. But of course we have to proviile the j obs.

I bel:l .eve the govern~>ent h<>s to clo all it' its power to try and create jobs for our people. They have got to explore every avenue. I think another it'lportant one must be the achievell'Cnt of the highest possil-J e increase in productivity. To elate ~·7e have got no system. to nonitor the productivity of Netrroundland. I want to get Into that as pect a little later t·Yhen I eom talking ahout education. I think I can t'lake the analogy in education that I want to use here. 8907

"ay 27, 1976 Tape 2968 JB-2 W'. LPSH: 0f course I think another high priority, another goal ,must be the development of all the resources of the Province to the highest point of effi ,ciencv. r.ertainly there must be the achievetn.ent of a climate both econcll'li .c and political that w:fll encourare the development of new inclustri.es and exp;msion of existing fndustr:ies. These, ''r. Speaker, are what I believe to be some of the r,oals that "-'e should gjve priority to in the development of this Province.

The report of the Royal Commission on the Economic State and Prospect• of newfoundlanc1 and J,abraclor, 1<167, states that the Ne•-•founc'll;mcl government has never defi .ned ~ny cle:.r strate~y for deve]opwent. '~'his has uncloubtec'lly handic .appec'l thP. prorral'1111es of both feeler"], provincial and munic:ip<'!] f;C'Vermnents, ~"'" T'ell <'IS the private sector. C:ir, tl;en the co!'tllds~iCln r0es on anc' !'lflkes the fn, J O"-•:lnp recommenr:1ation. It recoml'lenc'ls the f,..ll o'··in~ str<'!tep:y.

"The Newfoundland government should pursue a stratery of fo=al economic planning which vrould enable a] 1 levels of government to agree on orders of expenditures prior:i .ty. rnrthennore it HouJ d r-ive confidence to the private Hector inasmucL as the p1anncr. d:i.rect1on of pul1lic expenclitures wouJ d be clearly unc'erstood 1-.•l,ile knmclec're of the forecast and targeted c'lirect]on of tre <"cnnoT"y as a whole ''ould assist prjvate entrepreneurs :in their i.nvest!"ent decisions." Tllen 1.t gc>es on to J jst certa:i.n priorities or criteria tl,at should he used in the sett]ng up for the economic p.lann~nr,. ~·r.

E_peaker, the :il'lportant th:f.n:>: here iR that sett]ng up roals for development zlonr w1th a strategy can ass]st a g0vermnent jn establish:inr orders of expent,i ture priority. Then of course He clevelop criteri.<1 that Hill enable us to do the th:in!';s that we want to t!o. from these criteria 1-•e Hc>uld select the things that He Hould be doing on the tasis of this criter]a. "r. Spee~ker, the p;overnment have had plans. The governl!'ent had plans,for example, a fi.ve year plan to upgrade and pave the roads 890R

:r-<ay 27, 1976 Tape 2968 IB-3 .J'P .. U TS]i.:_ in this Province, a fjve year plan. vTell, Sir, what has happened to the plan? lVhcre has the plan gone? rertainJy a time of inflation and fiscal restra~nts does not necessarily mean that that sort of a plan has to be scrapped. It night mean stretching the thing out a little longer, fjve years probably becoming seven years. But thi.s ~~s a plan that they had. But, Sir, now there is no such plan. So ' ''h<lt is the criteria now for the upgrading and the paving of roads?

I think the whole idea of it was that communities would know when there road was going to he paved, Fhen the]r roaCI Has going to be upgraded. But notv, ~·r. Speaker, it seeiPs as though nobody knows right not~ '·•hat time their road is going to be p11Ved, tvhat t111'.e their roacl is going to l·.e upgraded. The plan seems to have just gone by the way. ''P . Sl 'ALL1v00 n: gjves? !m. U TSJ1: Fould not the criteria be the a!l'ount that DPr.r. Well I would like to know what the crHer]a are, for example, in my own district.

I would like to know if ,,•hen the estimates are approved, what criteria are used in upgrading and paving certain roacls. For exatT'ple,if there is twenty miles paved in a district that is acl.jacent to Il'Y clistrict and only ten m]Jes to be (!_one in l!lY o~m !Hstrict I t-~ould like to know the crHer:l;;o a~ to Hhy. It is not sufficient to say that you couJ d not afford to p<1ve the twenty njJes in my district because that applies to both. You see, the affordi_ng bit applies to both, the a.'nount of money you have. So there must be some other criteria.

There has got to be some other criteria to establish why roads are upgrade(! and paved in one area as opposed to another. Not~ these crl.teria 11d gt]t be there but I have not seen them and I ~-Jould J ike to kno~r what they are. The sa!l1e thing, !fr. Speaker, trlth respect to water and sewer. I believe there was a seven year, a proposal for a seven year pror.ramme here. i\gain,~Jith this k:!nd of plan that I am talking about, 1vith the strategy and this criteria then people would know ~rhen to expect 8909

~'ay 27, 1976 T<~.pe 296R IB-~ l<r •• I.TTSH.: these services,t~hereas not< people are just waiting from year to year wondering whether or not they are going to get the water and sewer this year, t•hether they are going to get an artesian well this year, and peop] e do not '!<now. ronsequentJ y t·-hat is happeninr: is that our people are frustrated. This is the reason in the Spri .n[' partj cularly with respect to ro11rls, ~·~y "'e have pickets and rfot,: and rlisturbances anc1 C!emonstrat1.ons on the public roads because "eople -la not knm·J ,,-hen SOJ!'t.thfng is )>Oing to be done tO the road • But, ~'r.

Speaker, with such a p]an of development, a five year plan that the government proposecl, this tvould have eliminated this. llut it seems to be gone, !lr. Speaker. Nm.1, ~'r. Speaker, 1 have talked a!,out the :ll!'portance of rleveloping our natura] resources. I Hant to spencl a coup' e of Pdn11tes talking about our human resources. 'The economic r1e,Jelopment of this Province will C.epend greatly on the aspirations, energy, inventiveness and the ski]] s of naUve :let·•foundl<~.nders. !'r. Speaker, tl'e f.peech froll' the Throne T!'.akes some reference to a point I '1-mnt to ma!·e here.

It says, "Yy governJ"ent has been c!:lstressed at the ldrl ' rate of unemployment in this Province. ~e~pite the numbers of unenp:oyed, :It is disturhing that many jobs are unfillet 1 because sldlle<' men II and women are not always able to tal<e the available job". The Speech from the :'hrone, rr • ~peaker, inclic<~.ti.ng that we co not have suffident nul'lbers of trained men an<' ~~onen in this Province.

The hoP. '':lnister of f'ines and fnergy l"!ar'e reference to the sarr:e point some time ag:o on television ~1hen he Has s8yjng tl1at we Jack certain mana::erial !'kills. ?'r. opeaker, I have fron: t1~e to time talked about in this House the importance of edncation ~lith respect to the econom:!.c tlevel opment of this Province. There are some people,of course ,who t<'Ould St1p,£est that we should be more ~.rj lJ i.ng to spend the l"oney in education than tve ~ave on sot:te of our large industries. I certain] y would not go t~.at far. nut I will again 8910

!'ay 27, 1976 Tape 21168 I.D-5 ~T. Llt~l{: suggest that this Province has to be prepared to ~a~e n greater effort in ctluca tion. I just ~1ant to elaborate on this for a short 1-lhile . l previously pointe<' out that ..-hen t'eternining the at'lount of money to be spent on education , there are two important areas that we must look at . One, we must loo'Y at t he needs, the educational neecls of this Province. I have liste~ to this Rouse the nreas of wear.ness ~ this Province. The ~peech f.ror the Thr~ne points out an ~rea of weakness, the lack of sltillec:l nen an~ ..-omen. 8911

May 27, 1976 Tape No. 2969 NM- 1 MR. LUSH: We have got many inadequate school buildings in this Province. Our post-secondary institutions are not able to take care of enough people. There are too many people who cannot attend them. I have talked about the handicapped, and I have talked about the narrow curriculum in this Province and I just want to suggest, Mr. Speaker, that some people will go _off on a tangent when you talk about education.

I remembered some time ago that somebody made reference to the fact that I,as a supervisor with the Avalen Consolidated School Board,was quoted in the paper as saying that I thought we should get back to the basics of reading, writing and arithmetic. I certainly said getting back to the basics, Mr. Speaker. But I think many people misunderstand what I mean ~y basics. I think so many people think that getting back to the basics of reading, writing and arithmetic that you are talking about three courses. Reading permeates the whole curriculum. It does not mean a narrow curriculum.

Reading can be done in science 1 it can be done in the arts, in can be done in literature 1 in just about every subject reading can be done. MR. ROWE: Bring out a person's interest. MR. LUSH: Right. And writing the same thing; writing permeates the whole curriculum. So when I am talking about getting down to the ba•ics of being concerned with reading and writing I am not talking about it in its narrow perspective of one subject, a writing subject or a weading subject, but I am talking about something that permeates the entire curriculum. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I have said when we are looking at education, the need for greater effo•t, the need for more money, we must look at the needa .and find out whether we are not meeting the educational needs of this Province, whether we have problems, and we do. I have outlined those several times and I do not want to go over them again. 8912

May 27. 1976 Tape No. 2969 NM- 2 MR. LUSH: And I said the other criteria is the proportion of money that is being spent on education in other Provinces. Mr. Speaker, I pointed out that this Province spends considerably less of its total budget on education than do other provinces of Canada. And very roughly what happens is that we spend generally about one quarter of our provincial budget goes to education,

whereas in other Provinces it comes closer to one third, not quite to one third but it approximates a third more than a quarter. It is probably around twenty-nine, thirty per cent, anywhere from twenty-eight to thirty per cent, in that average, w~ereas ours is down around twenty-three, twenty-two, twenty-four and I do not know whether' it has ever hit twenty-five or not. I do not think it has. That is one.

The other two that we must look at , and I just want to allude to these to determine the effort of other Provinces,and that is the amount of money that is spent on education per capita, that is what each of us spends on education and that is a very startling figure because this includes, here we are talking about the total expenditure on elementary and secondary education per capita. And I just want to take two years and give the House some idea. In 1971-72,for example 1 in Newfoundland per capita we spent on primary and secondary education, we spent $177.

P.E.I. $180, Nova Scotia $183, New Brunswick $191, Quebec $269 and the average for Canada was $250. And we spent $177 per capita, that is what we spent;and the average,as I said,per Canada was $250. Then the next statistic that is important is the total expenditure on ele~ntary and secondary education per student, per student enrolled in the Province and in Newfoundland in 1971 we spent $564, P;E.I. $660, Nova Scotia $670, New Brunswick t688 and that is far enough. The average for Canada was $933, compared to $564 for this Province.

In 1974-75 Newfoundland spent $803 per student 0 P.E.I. $1,115, Nova Scotia $1,040, New Brunswick $1,050, the average for Canada $1.222. 8913

May 27, 1976 Tape No. 2969 NM- 3 MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, spend~ng money on education does not tell everything but certainly whether you are spending money on education it means for the most p•rt more programmes. It means more facilities and what it ~ans, Sir, when you have got more programmes and more facilities,it means that our students are not afforded the same equality of educational opportunity as other students throughout this Dominion. Now, Mr.

Spaaker, there was another reference made to education here in the Throne Speech that I take a little exception to~ It says, "In many of our service areas, such as Health and Education, these disparities have almost disappeared." Mr. Speaker, I think it depends on what we mean by 'almost'. the degree of almost. You know if we are talking about 1 using the analogy of the fellow who almost caught the trout,well then that is all right. We have almost eliminated the disparities. But if we are using 'almost' in the terms of Maxwell Smart, 1by about that much; then I think I take issue with the statement. Mr.

Speaker, I have had the privilege to teach in a school where resources •id not impose any problem and I know what can be done when you have resources. I have had the opportunity to spend some time in some of the most progressive achools in Canada, Etobicoke in Scarborough in Toronto, and visited schools in Nova Scotia, In the United States I have visited schools in New York, and I have visited school in Denver, in Colorado. Mr.

Speaker, I think I have some experience and I can say that I do not think that we hav~ come all that close to elimin•ting the disparit~es which exist in education, particularly when it comes to pro~ding equal opportunity for education in this Province, the same equal opportunity as is afforded students throughout the rest of this Dominion. MR. HOUSE: Would the member permit please? When the member compares he forsets the per capita cost in education in the Maritimes in the last year, I think the measure you have got to take is to see how

May 27, 1976 Tape No. 2869 MR. ROUSE: how close we are coming and you went back to 1971-72 and up to 1974, what about the last year, have you compared that? MR. LUSH: No.! have not got the statistic on that one. MR. HOUSE: You will find that we are very close in the same kind of per capita expenditure, NK- 4 MR. LUSH: Well~if so I am delighted to hear that if that is the case. And the minister,! expect,knows whether that is the case. Mr. Speaker, I just want to make a couple of other comments with respect to education.

I am just trying to point out, Sir, the desirability of a greater effort in education,and I think bon. members realize this and I do not think we need to go on the defeneive. We realize we are living in difficult times but I am just pointing out the need for greater financial imput if we are to develop our people to the full capacity that we should be. Another concern of mine, Sir, with respect to education, and probably more so at this particula~ point tha• the finances, and that is with the curriculum.

And I just wanted to make a couple of points here because some people have made reference to graduates earning out of university and not being able to find jobs, this sort of· thing, and they are coming out of other post-secondary institutions too;and I spoke about the necessity of offering the proper types of programme for this Province and I think this is what is important, Sir, when I talk about curriculum.

I believe this has to be a very important concemn of ours of making sure that we are offering the proper courses, the courses that will train people in the skills that are necessary for the people of this Province. And, Mr. Speaker, on this point I am just wondering how much co-ordinating is going on throughout the different post-secondary institutions in this Province. In many provinces they have a programme officer, I am not sure that that is the correct terminology, but somebody who monitors 8915

May 27 .. 1976 Tape No. 2969 MR.

LUSH: the progra.mes that are going on in the different institutions,and he with a c0111111itte will decide whethe.r or not this course will be offered this year, wh.ether or not this course will meet the needs of that particular province or meet the needs of the people attendinj that particular institution,.and I believe at the moment that we have got NM - 5 no such agency .to monitor the kinds of prtrgrammes that are being offered in our post-secondary institutions and one wonders how 'Qluch duplication there is in some of the trade schools around,and one wonders about the value of soille of the courses llhat might be in these places because there is no such !lll!chanie to monitor the kinds of courses that are being offered.

So, Sir, I would suggest that t.he govern~~~ent look very carefully at this to COllie up with some means of monitoring the kinds of courses and the kinds of progr..-es that are being offered :i.n our post-secondary institutions to 8916 ,.

May 27, 1976 Mr. Lush. Tape no. 2970 Page 1 - mw make sure that we are not wasting resources, that we are not wasting human resources or the financial resources of this Province. But, Sir, I just want to wrap up my remarks by saying that in the total the Throne Speech offered no solution to our problems during these times of economic crises, inflation, and rampant unemployment. They threw out no real challenges and gave us no direction for future development. And, Sir, just an illustration from a local paper, The Evening Telegram ,in commenting on the Speech from the Throne.

It said, "It was a fairly long document whose. length was hardly justified by its content. Basically it was a recital of things past rather than things to come. " As the speech said, it was largely the review of achievements made in the four years since the Moores Administration came to office. In

summary it says, "The Throne Sp~ech 1975 is not very inspiring. We trust it is not intended to set the pace for the next four years." And, Mr. Speaker, l expressed the same sentiments. Another writer says, "It lvas a very long speech to make about so very little. Sixteen pages and an hour of reading for a few scraps of information and the few ideas that could have been typed on one side of a lady's handkerchief." Hr. Speaker, the Speech from the Throne did not offer much for the future development or much in the way of plans for the future development of this Province. What concerned me, Hr.

Speaker, was not the call for belt tightening and fiscal restraints and the cutbacks.That the Province has to deal with a rough budgetary situation is understood and appreciated. We are fully aware of the necessity for restraints and cutbacks, and we believe that everybody and everyone in the Province must be aware of the financial limitations of this Province. But what concerns me is the pre-election promises and the sudden call, and the suddenes•of the call for restraints and cutbacks. That, Sir, I find offensive.

However, the greatest disappointment was with the complete lack of any planned programme of development in the Throne Speech. No 8917

May 27, 1976 Tape no. 2970 Page 2 - mw ~1r. Lush. indications of developmental goals or strategies whereby these goals may be achieved. No more money, Sir, needed for this. This is not a call for money,for when you are calling for plans for development, for the establishment of goals and strategies and criteria, you are not asking for more money, just asking for more imagination, more vision, more ideas. We are asking the government to estaLlish, Sir, a plan for development, to set up some criteria and strategies to decide on spending priorities thus giving our people confidence in the future of this Province.

Thank you. SOME RON. NEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. SPE.\KER (Hr. Young): The hen. member for Baie Ve!rte- White Bay. NR. RIDEOUT: Hr. Speaker, I want to take a few l'linutes ' to say a few words or. the Throne Speech debate and then I "ould like to say a few words abo9t the district of Baie Verte - ;~ite Bay, and also a few words about the conditions of the Province as I see them at this particular time. First I want to talk about the district, and, 'Jf course the district that I represent - I do not know whether hen. members are aware of it or not - the district is actually two different and distinct districts.

The two areas of the districts, the two parts of the district are different geographically, they are different economically, and they certainly have a differnet community of interest. In fact I would submit that the district of Baie Verte - lvhite Bay, \~hen one looks at it on a map or studies it more closely in economic or geographic<!-1 terms, it is probably one of the most glaring mistakes of the last Redistribution Bill. ~m. ROBERTS: !IR. RIDEOUT: It was no mistake. It was done intentionally.

Well it might have been done intentionally, but it is certainly a glaring mistake of taking and chopping that particular area up in the manner in which it was done. Now I want to hasten to add that 891S

May 27, 1976 Tape no. 2970 Page 3 - mw Hr. Rideout. 'I am proud to represent every community in the district - MR. ROBERTS: They are all proud to have you. MR.aiDEOUT: - whether they are geographically cut off from one another, or whether their economic interests are different, or whatever.

But I want to say that because, Sir, in my mind this points out,or from the point of view of representation,or f~om the point of vie'~ of dis::rict visitation,or from the point of view of visibility of the member for the district- whether it is me, somebody else, or some other party is not important- but from those point of views, Sir, it makes it very, very difficult to represent a district tl1at has such a diversity of interest as the district of Baie Verte - White Bay.

It is rather difficult and sometimes I find it almost impossible when you want to sit down and look at the district as a concept to conceptualize, to put into any sort of category the needs of the district or to put them into any sort of package is almoEt difficult, is rather difficult because you find that one end of the district is not at all similar to the other end, and you find that the problems facing one end of the district are totally different in those facing the other. I have said that the district is geographically different.

First of all I would like to deal '~!th what I tend to call the Northern part of the district, that is the area of Harbour Deep, Englee, Roddickton and Bide Arm. Harbour Deep, Sir, is the only isolated community today in the district of Baie Verte - White Bay, the only one. It is a community of about 400-odd people, and it solely dependent on the fishery at this present time. The people of Harbour Deep are a very independent people.

They make a good living from the fishery , but we must, Sir, in this House,and I, as the member, certainly am, we must become concerned about the future life of that community of Harbour Deep. ~ith the isolation barrier broken on each end, with Roddickton and Englee and Bide Arm with that area being connected to the outside world by road, and 8919

May 27, 1976 Tape no. 2970 Page 4 - mw Hr. Rideout. with the other side of it, the Jackson's Arm, Sops Arm area being connected by road, with the isolation barrier, as I have said, broken on each end the people or some people of Harbour Deep are beginning to look rather longingly to these particular areas. And it is my fear and the fear of a number of peole in the community that many people just might begin to leave that very thrivin~~; and independent community to go elsewhere. ~ffi. DOODY: How far is it from Harbour Deep to Englee? ~ffi.

RIDEOUT: Well the road would have to be built across country from :2wkes Bay. I think it is about thirty-five miles. MR. MURPHY: How many familes in Harbour Deep? HR. RIDEOUT: Well there are about 400 people, as I have alread; ' indicated. So, Sir, you know, with the isolation barrier,the point is with the isolation barrier broken on each end of it, and with that becoming increasingly attractive, especially to the younger people, the future prospects of Harbour Deep might not look at all too pleasant at this particular time. But I \:ould not want to advocate that type of thine.

The people, Sir, are not goinR to stay there forever in isolation. I think that is a self-evident fact: They will not stay in that community forever in isolation. The ynung people lvill not stay there, and that is the important point to remember, because while the older people might stay, they are not going to be able to regenerate the life of that communitv. The younger people must be attracted to stay in that community. I think it can be done, and I think we must address ourself to that problem and begin to do somethinR about it. I think it would be a shame for a community like lmrbour Deep to disapear.

They are hard-working people. They are viciously independent people. They work very, very hard. To my knoweldge there is little or no welfare in that communitv at any ti1ne of the year. They make their living totally at the present time out of the fishery, and, of course, they draw unemployment insurance benefits during the Hinter, and partake in some woods operations. It i~ a good, clean living for those 400-odd people. And I think we should encourage in anyway we 8920

May 27. 1976 Tape no. 2970 Page 5 - mw ~1r. Rideout. can to ensure that that community remains a stable and viable community far into the future. But, Sir, in order to do that we must break the isolation barrier. ~~ I have suggested, 8921

May 27, 1976 Tape 2971 PK - 1 Mr. T. Rideout: those people will not stay with the glamour and the glory of non-isolation beckoning them on both sides; they will not stav there. and we mast be concerned about it. To retain the young people we must break the isolation barrier into Harbour Deep, and, Sir, that is why I was very happy when the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture announced a few days ago that the government had been able to obtain cutting rights to the Mooney Block. Now the Mooney Block of timber 1 as I understand it,is located behind, on the back of the community of Harbour Deep.

In order for that Mooney Block to be exploited, to become assessible as a timber resource to the mills of this Province\forest access roads will have to be built into that region. And I think we should begin to look now at the possibility of extan•ing such forest access roads out into the community of Harbour Deep itself. That is the only way, Sir, I suggest that that community will remain a strong, viable and stable community is if the isolation barrier is broken. I maintain it can be broken and we must begin now to plan to do that.

I do not expect it to happen this year or maybe not even next year, but as the forest access roads are pushed into the Mooney Block to take out the timber resource of that area,then we must concentrate on extending those roads for the next few miles, be it ten or fifteen or twenty miles whatever the case might be,into the community of Harbour Deep to break the isolation barrier of that community forever, and thereby insure that that community will be around forever and a day as a viable, strong community. That also, of course, will have another economic consequence for the people of Harbour Deep.

It will provide them with an added economic boost in the sense that the people from that community will be able to partake of the forest industry. Right now they are dependent totally and solely on the fishery. Up to this point they have been able to make a real good liTing from the fishery. But we know that the fishery has its problems, and of course if the forest industry is exploited - 8922

May 27, 1976 Tape 2971 PK- 2 MR. W. CARTER: Would the han. member yield for a question, Hr. Speaker? MR. RIDEOUT: Sure. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! MR. W. CARTER: I had the honour too to represent- I think it was called Great Harbour Deep in those days? HR. RIDEOUT: That is right, yes. MR. W. CARTER: And the matter of a road across the peninsula was an issue then. But it seems to me,maybe he can refresh my memory, it seems to me that there was quite a steep cliff right around the Harbour , the settlements, which made it atmost impossible. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. W.

CARTER: Straight up, which made it I think almost impossible to bring a road down to the community . Would he mind refreshing my memory? MR. RIDEOUT : Yes , I would HR. SMALLWOOD: Yes,there is a way to get down there. MR. RIDEOUT: Yes there is, Sir. If you are familiar with Harbour Deep, I know it is a number of years since the han. minister represented that community so he might have forgotten. In Harbour Deep there is the Northwest bottom and the Southwest bottom. The Northwest bottom, down this way,there is no problem at all to bring a road in there.

In fact, seventeen miles of right-of-way have been cut, and it was cut under a LIP Programme1 I believe,two Winters ago, and it is, just know, beautiful. Now on both sides of the community1 as you suggest,there are cliffs and you would never get out that way·. And th!s is why the road must go through towards Hawk•s Bay ~ther than go up the other way and link into Jackson's Arm which I believe milewise would be much more closer. But through the Northwest bottom and over to Hawkes Bay,no problem at all.

Now the problem is with building the road across there, as I have been told by engineers,is the first few miles from Hawkes Bay out towards BKrbour Deep is, you know, very poor terrain, and it would be very expensive to build a road through that type of 8923

May 27, 1976 Tape 2971 PK- 3 Mr. Rideout: terrain. But that will have to be overcome in order to get into the Mooney Block of timber. So therefore once that is done the initial great expense is taken care of to get the road from Hawkes Bay into the Mooney Block. There should be no problem in getting into Harbour Deep. And that is why I was so pleased to hear that announcement by the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. And as I have suggested, Sir, also that those people were dependent solely on the fishery. Now with the opening up of the Mooney Bl.ck they will be able to take

part in the ~obs and the further economic boost that will be provided to that area by exploiting the forestry resource. So, Sir, the people of Harbour Deep and that particular area welcome that news,and I certainly welcome it,and I hope that the end result will be that the devilish isolation that has plagued so many communities in this Province will be broken in to one community in the District of Ba·ie Verte-White Bay that is still plagued by it. I hope that will be the great result, and the result that will be around long after the forest access roads have been built.

Now I want to say a few words: also regarding Englee. As many members might know, Sir, Englee was once referred to as the Queen of the North. It was the thriving metropolis,! suppose,to put it tha t way, after you left Baie Verte before you got to St. Anthony. Englee was the Queen of the North where everything happened. Englee, Sir,still has a great potential as a community. But it is basically now dependent on the fishery. It has a fish plant there that is operated by the Lake group. And that, Sir, is the economic life of Englee.

Without that fish plant Englee, a community I believe of 1,800 or 2,000 people,will be economically dead, and that is the problem that we face in Englee at this present time. The plant in Englee is an old one. It is in dire need of modernization and of refurbishing and rebuilding. It is old and in very, very poor condition; in fact I believe it was once operated by John Reeves Limited which is an old and historic firm along the Northern Coast of

May 27, 1976 Tape 2971 PK - 4 Mr. Rideout: Newfoundland. If that plant should collapse,and that is the problem ~hat we must face when we look at Englee today, if that plant should collapse, so collapses the whole economy of the town. And as I have suggested,it is a town of 1,800 or 2,000 people. They are dependent solely and wholly on the fishery. Nothing else. There is nothing else for them to do, Sir. But up to this point they have been able to scratch,by hard work and sheer determination 1 ~ : good living fr*m the fishery in that area.

But if it is to continue then we must ensure as a government that that plant at Englee is maintained and properly maintained and in such a condition that it can into the future be the economic boost that area needs. The government must ensure that it continues to operate. Some of the best fishermen of Newfoundland, Sir, are located along that part of the Northeast Coast, but that s .. 11 plant is needed in order to maintain the economic life of the town of Englee. Now I have tried to impress on members that without that plant there is nothing to Englee. Not a thing . There is nothing else there.

There is nothing else that anybody can think of that can replace the fishery in that particular area. Yesterday, Sir, we heard a few words about Bide Arm in the form of a petition . Bide Arm, Sir, - the story of Bide Arm must be the saddest story to ever face a community on the Northeast Coast of Newfoundland. It must be the saddest story to ever face a community. There are times when I feel that Bide Arm could be