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October 22, 2002

37th Parliament, 3rd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

vol. A

Hansard Transcripts

vol. B

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2002-Oct-22 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Tuesday 22 October 2002 Mardi 22 octobre 2002

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

KIDNEY DIALYSIS

JOB CREATION

RALLY FOR ISRAEL

VOLUNTEERS

HYDRO RATES

VISITING HOMEMAKERS ASSOCIATION

OF HAMILTON-WENTWORTH

FLORENCE KEHL

GOVERNMENT'S RECORD

DOG WALKATHONS IN

DURHAM REGION

VISITORS

APRIL HOPKIN

LEGISLATIVE PAGES

ORAL QUESTIONS

KYOTO PROTOCOL

RURAL EDUCATION FUNDING

KYOTO PROTOCOL

TORONTO TRANSIT COMMISSION

TRANSIT SERVICES

CURRICULUM

KYOTO PROTOCOL

FOODLAND ONTARIO

FOREST INDUSTRY

HYDRO RATES

ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE PROGRAM

HOME CARE

LONG-TERM CARE

HIGHWAY 407

CORPORATE TAX

VISITORS

PETITIONS

WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT

CHILD CARE

EMERGENCY RESPONSE TEAMS

HIGHWAY 69

PROVINCE OF ONTARIO

SAVINGS OFFICE

COMPETITIVE ELECTRICITY MARKET

WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT

GARDE D'ENFANTS

NATURAL GAS RATES

SERVICES DE SANTÉ POUR ENFANTS /

CHILDREN'S HEALTH SERVICES

CELLULAR TOWER

COMPETITIVE ELECTRICITY MARKET

ORDERS OF THE DAY

INTERIM SUPPLY

Tuesday 22 October 2002 Mardi 22 octobre 2002

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

KIDNEY DIALYSIS

Mr Dave Levac (Brant): I rise in the House today to highlight a very important issue that affects a large group of people in my riding of Brant.

These are kidney dialysis patients in Brant who must travel to Hamilton, usually three or four times a week, to receive life-saving kidney dialysis treatments. The people who use these services in

Hamilton are too unstable to utilize the kidney dialysis services that are offered in Brant and are forced to go to the centre of excellence at the St Joseph's hospital in Hamilton. These very ill

and elderly patients must pay considerable transportation costs out of their own pockets to make the trip to Hamilton. Should they choose not to pay for these transportation costs, these people

will die without their treatments.

I have written to the Minister of Health, I have spoken to the Minister of Health and the Minister of Community, Family and Children's Services on this issue

several times, and have included personal letters from my constituents affected by this desperate situation. To date, there has been no relief for these people who are spending more than $300 to

travel to and from Hamilton to receive their treatments: $15,000 annually.

Most of these people are elderly and live on fixed incomes. Some go without food and other medical expenses to afford these treatments, because without their

kidney dialysis they will die. Presently, there are approximately 70 patients travelling to Hamilton, 40 of these patients from the riding of Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant. Of the 30 patients from

Brantford, 15 can't find treatment any other way.

I implore the government to do the right thing and make some assistance available to these patients.

JOB CREATION

Mr Bart Maves (Niagara Falls): Ernie Eves's Ontario stands as a shining light of economic growth and activity among the dim world economy. Today

I stand to applaud this government's reforms, which have created 987,000 net new jobs in Ontario since 1995.

The most recent job creation numbers include 32,300 new jobs in September and 42,700 jobs in August. This was Ontario's best monthly job gain since 1989. These

statistics are all the more remarkable when one considers that the world economy has been in a slowdown for two years.

In Niagara, according to the labour market bulletin for April-June 2002, the St Catharines-Niagara area posted its largest quarterly employment increase in two

years. The area saw a net gain of 10,600 workers in the second quarter, most of them full-time. The Niagara area unemployment rate stands at 7%. This is quite remarkable when one considers that in

1993 the Niagara area unemployment rate was at 15.3%. I was quite encouraged by this information in the labour market bulletin. I also know that since this report I have attended new business

openings in Niagara that have contributed to the creation of even more jobs. Niagara has a permanent casino to look forward to, thanks to the Ernie Eves government, with construction on time and on

budget for spring 2004.

RALLY FOR ISRAEL

Mr Mike Colle (Eglinton-Lawrence): Last night in my riding of Eglinton-Lawrence at Shaarei Shomayim synagogue, an overflow crowd of over 600

people, including the member from York Centre, Monte Kwinter, and myself, attended a rally in support of the people of Israel as they suffer terribly from cowardly terrorist acts like yesterday's,

when at least 14 innocent civilians were blown up by another suicide attack. The evening's highlight was the awarding of four outstanding journalist awards by B'nai Brith Canada to recognize

significant contributions in support of Israel by a journalist. The four journalists recognized were Rosie DiManno of the Star, John Downing of the Sun, Marcus Gee of the Globe, and Stewart Bell of

the Post. Also recognized were the outstanding achievements and contributions made by the late Johnny Lombardi promoting multiculturalism, diversity and greater understanding among all people.

At this most difficult time for the people of Israel and their many friends and relatives who are here in Canada, last night helped deal with the pain and

suffering of terror. Last night said loudly and clearly to all victims of terrorism, whether in Israel or in Bali, that you are not alone. Together we will defeat the terrorist plague that is the

scourge not only of Canada but of the whole world. So together we stand with the people of Israel and all people who are victims of terrorism.

VOLUNTEERS

Mr AL McDonald (Nipissing): Today I rise before the House to discuss the importance of volunteering. I recently had the privilege of attending

my first event as parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Enterprise, Opportunity and Innovation, and I saw the value that was gained when youth were recognized for their involvement in business

and entrepreneurial initiatives. Ontario continues to grow and prosper and is steadily becoming one of the forefronts of competition in the global economy. And you know what? Within each successful

company, within each major business, there are people who go above and beyond the call of duty and all for the betterment of others.

It is the people who volunteer who really deserve praise. They do it because they care. They give to us and to Ontario their precious time and their desire to be

kind to those around them. One out of every three people over the age of 15 in Ontario volunteers. This is a noble trait and I believe one that should be recognized.

Volunteers have amazed us with their abilities and their desires to help others. The best thing about volunteering really is the fact that you know they are

fulfilling by aiding in the betterment of something bigger than themselves. When you think about it, what does "volunteer" mean? It means that because of you there was a senior citizen who had

someone to talk to instead of being lonely. It was because you volunteered that a child scored his first goal, made a big save or enjoyed the feelings of friendship and teamwork. Being a volunteer

could mean that a child is looked after and a single parent gets a needed rest. Any way you look at it, volunteering is something you will never forget or regret.

HYDRO RATES

Mrs Marie Bountrogianni (Hamilton Mountain): Words cannot begin to convey the outrage over the hydro bills in my community. What do we need to

do get the message through? Surely your constituents have told you, the media have told you and the Liberals are telling you, what more needs to be done before you give our constituents the rebate

to help ease this pain? Government is supposed to act as the public's trustee, not Bay Street's trustee. Seniors living month to month on pensions are being penalized with demands for $120 security

deposits after being unable to pay, for the first time in their lives, their hydro bill.

Does the Premier have any idea how this hydro experiment impacts on families, especially families who have a child with special needs? Denise McKee would like

him to know. Denise has two sets of twins. One of her twins is autistic. To make sure that Conlan receives all the attention he needs to succeed in life, the McKees have given up a second income so

that Denise could stay at home and help train him. In addition to paying for additional medical services, the McKees, courtesy of Ernie Eves, also have a hydro bill that has doubled.

My constituent Donald Burroughs speaks for all my constituents when he says, and I suggest that you listen, "Please do what you can to express my disdain. I'm

afraid that this is another `created crisis.' I could have never anticipated a 103% increase. My wages have not gone up 103% to support this."

We demand that Ernie Eves introduce consumer protection and tougher regulations, and that he give my constituents the rebate they so desperately need.

VISITING HOMEMAKERS ASSOCIATION

OF HAMILTON-WENTWORTH

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton West): For more than 70 years the Visiting Homemakers Association of Hamilton-Wentworth provided skilled and

caring home care services to thousands of clients, including those with disabilities, terminal illnesses and special-needs children.

After more than half a century of cost-effective, high-quality service, the VHA in Hamilton was forced into bankruptcy as a direct result of the home care crisis

created by this government. A full-scale community effort to save the VHA was mounted but failed. The Eves government could have intervened but refused to help as more than 400 caregivers lost

their jobs and thousands of clients lost services.

Hamiltonians are still in shock that this government refused to act. The loss of the VHA is a major blow to our community

and a major embarrassment for a government that is supposed to be facilitating the delivery of home care services across the province.

Your abandonment of the VHA is sending shock waves around the province. One service provider we spoke to said, "There but for the grace of God go any of us."

The Ontario Community Support Association says, "The home care crisis in Hamilton is just the first domino in a long line of vulnerable home and community care

providers now threatened with eventual closure. People will be forced out of their homes, where they want to be, and into nursing homes."

Seniors' services around the province are threatened, and your inaction has destroyed an outstanding home care service provider that was in business for more

than half a century. The citizens of Hamilton are outraged and they rightfully hold you completely accountable.

FLORENCE KEHL

Mr Bert Johnson (Perth-Middlesex): I rise today to congratulate a very special individual from my riding of Perth-Middlesex. Florence Kehl of

Stratford received the Ontario Medal for Good Citizenship at a ceremony held here at the Ontario Legislature last Friday.

The Ontario Medal for Good Citizenship was established in 1973 to recognize people, who through exceptional long-term efforts have made outstanding contributions

to their communities. Florence was one of 12 recipients from across Ontario to receive this prestigious award from Ontario's Lieutenant Governor, the Honourable James K. Bartleman.

Florence, who was nominated by the city of Stratford, is the founder and executive director of the House of Blessing. For more than 19 years, the House of

Blessing has been providing programs and services to the people of Stratford and the surrounding communities. The House of Blessing provides food, clothing, toys, furniture, counselling and

spiritual advice to several hundred people every month.

In handing Florence her award, the Minister of Citizenship made mention of the fact that Florence mortgaged her house to help fund the establishment of the House

of Blessing 20 years ago.

I would ask all members of the Legislature to join me in thanking Florence Kehl for her dedication and in congratulating her and the other 11 recipients on

receiving this prestigious citizenship award.

GOVERNMENT'S RECORD

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): It's been almost two weeks since Premier Eves ordered a high-level search of government offices to

root out any more political bombshells the mean previous PC government left behind.

It was a nasty trick that the previous government's ministers -- Ecker, Tsubouchi and Cunningham -- played on Premier Eves, leaving him the $10-million tax break

for the sports teams, and deliberately timing it to occur just after he became Premier-elect and before he was sworn in. I don't blame Mr. Eves for being mad.

We're all awaiting the outcome of the Premier's intense office-by-office search for more political bombshells left behind by the "previous government." We're

anxious to see if any of the 22 members of the current cabinet who were in the previous government's cabinet left any more political bombshells to deliberately sabotage the new government.

Most importantly, I sure hope the number two guy in the previous government, Mr Ernie Eves, who was the right hand of Mr Harris and Minister of Finance, who

proudly did most of the cutting, isn't surprised by any political bombshells he left behind for himself, because I'm certain he'll be very angry with himself.

DOG WALKATHONS IN

DURHAM REGION

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): As usual, I'm pleased to rise in the House to congratulate the Lions Club of my riding for two successful dog

walkathons that raised over $20,000 in support of the Lions Foundation. The funds are for a program that trains and equips guide dogs for the blind.

Each October, the Newcastle Lions Club holds a walkathon as part of the Newcastle and District Chamber of Commerce fall festival. On October 5, the Newcastle

Lions raised an estimated $18,000 for the foundation. This was made possible by more than 100 people with their pets who walked around the community. In particular, I'd like to mention Terry and

Jean Graham as well as Murray Paterson, one of the organizers, and all the members of the walkathon committee.

This is a project that includes both the Newcastle Leos Club and the Lions Club. I am sure that club president Hans Verkruisen and all of the members are pleased

with the community support. It's the eighth year for the Newcastle walkathon and the volunteers estimate that over $100,000 has been raised in that time.

The following day, on Sunday, October 6, the Blackstock and district Lions Club embarked on their first dog walkathon. Again, this was another all-round

community effort with a total of 45 walkers and pets included. Organizers estimate that over $4,000 was raised, with pledges still coming in.

Eleanor Colwell, chair of the Walk for Dog Guides committee, Lions Club president Chris Cliff, the Cartwright Leos Club and the Lions are to be congratulated on

a job well done. I'd like to thank them for their contribution to making our community a better place to live and raise your family.

VISITORS

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-St Clair): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I know I join all members in the House in welcoming in the visitors'

gallery opposite students from Father Serra school in Etobicoke.

On behalf of the official opposition, it's so nice to see that many red ties on that side of the House. Welcome.

Mr Mike Colle (Eglinton-Lawrence): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I wanted to mention that my niece, Rachel Colle, is a student at Father

Serra school.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Now we know why they're on that side looking toward this side.

While we're introducing some distinguished guests, we have with us today in the Speaker's gallery the Honourable Firoz Cachalia, Speaker of the Gauteng

Legislature in South Africa. He is here with a delegation who have come to our Legislature on a study tour. Please join me in welcoming the Speaker and the honourable guests.

APRIL HOPKIN

Hon Robert W. Runciman (Minister of Public Safety and Security): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I understand that we have unanimous consent to

offer condolences to the family of a fallen firefighter.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Unanimous consent? Agreed.

Hon Mr Runciman: I rise in the House today to recognize the tragic passing in the line of duty of a volunteer firefighter with the Goulais River

Fire Department.

April Hopkin was responding to a traffic accident on Highway 17 north on Sunday and died following a collision between her vehicle and another. She was just 22

years old.

April was the mother of two young children and had been a volunteer firefighter with the Goulais River Fire Department since 1999. Her husband is also a

volunteer firefighter.

Firefighters are trained to work in burning buildings, to save people trapped in wrecked automobiles, to be there when we need them most. We're privileged in

this province to have highly trained and professional men and women in our full-time and volunteer fire services. They do their jobs so well that sometimes we forget how dangerous and vital a role

they play. Our volunteer firefighters risk their lives to respond to calls for help from their neighbours.

Firefighter Hopkin was the eighth firefighter in Ontario to die in the line of duty over the past 10 years.

We owe all of our fallen firefighters and their families an enormous debt of gratitude. On behalf of the government of Ontario, I want to offer condolences to

the family of April Hopkin. Our thoughts are with the brave men and women who make up this province's firefighting community. This is a very sad reminder of the risks they face to protect us.

Mr Speaker, following the comments of other members, I would ask, through you, that all honourable members rise for a minute of silence in memory of the

all-too-short life of firefighter April Hopkin.

Mr Dave Levac (Brant): It is with sadness and respect that I rise in my place today, on behalf of Dalton McGuinty and the Liberal caucus, to

offer our thoughts and prayers and indeed to pay tribute to April Rose Hopkin.

April died in a two-vehicle collision on Highway 17 north on Sunday, October 20, 2002, ironically the very same month we observe Firefighters' Memorial Day. The

21-year-old wife, mother, sister, daughter and friend was on her way to the Goulais fire department so that she could respond to another accident that happened farther up the highway. As a

volunteer firefighter, April gave the ultimate sacrifice in service to her community and others.

This tiny township is just north of Sault Ste Marie. My colleague Mike Brown, the member representing this area, offers his personal and heartfelt sympathies to

the family and friends of April, as do we all.

Seven members of the Goulais fire department were called to the scene of the accident to respond to this rescue. The OPP reported that the firefighters performed

their duties admirably under these very trying circumstances.

April was a volunteer firefighter for just over four years. It was something she loved to do.

April leaves a loving husband, Colin, and two young children, Teely and Odyssey. To the family of April we offer our deepest sympathies and love as you continue

your journey.

We offer our own thoughts and prayers to the members of the Goulais River fire department, led by Chief Bob Menard.

Today let us celebrate the triumph of the special life of April Rose Hopkin. Let us also be reminded of this special and important job that all of our

emergency services respond to for us, day in and day out. These stark reminders are all too often.

I too would ask for unanimous consent at the end of these tributes to offer a moment of silence and calm to reflect on all the people in our hearts who have

gone before us, especially those in the emergency services and especially April Rose Hopkin.

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): April Hopkin was a member of that great sorority and fraternity of women and men who place themselves at

risk as a daily part of their routine, as a part of their commitment to their community and to their neighbours. She was a firefighter.

I must tell you that all of us in this caucus were shocked and saddened yesterday morning when our colleague Tony Martin from Sault Ste Marie advised us of

this tragedy. We stand once again today paying tribute to a young woman who, as a firefighter, put the welfare of others ahead of her very own, no two ways about it. I am convinced she was rushing

to the accident scene that has been described so that she could lend her services in the shortest and briefest possible time to people who were very much at risk. In the course of doing that, she

put herself at great risk.

New Democrats join every member of this assembly in expressing our condolences, not only to Ms Hopkin's family but to her colleagues, to her community. We're

talking small-town Ontario here, and in small-town Ontario people do things a little bit differently than they do in Toronto and some of the other big cities in this province. There's a sense of

community, I tell you, that is pervasive.

All of us in the New Democratic Party hope and pray that Ms Hopkin's family, her friends and her colleagues take some comfort in the acknowledgement -- yes, I

submit that today we speak on behalf of 11 million Ontarians here in this chamber -- by 11 million Ontarians of the courage of Ms Hopkin and of her sister and brother firefighters, her commitment

and her sense of duty, as well as her preparedness to sacrifice.

The Speaker: Would all members and our friends in the gallery please join with us in a moment of silence.

The House observed a moment's silence.

The Speaker: I thank all members and our friends in the gallery. I will ensure that copies of the statements by the honourable members go to

the family.

It is now time for oral questions.

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-St Clair): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I think we were told the Premier would --

Hon Chris Stockwell (Minister of the Environment, Government House Leader): Speaker, the Premier will be here.

The Speaker: Actually, what we can do is introduce the pages very quickly, which I was going to do.

LEGISLATIVE PAGES

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): As you know, we have a new group of pages, and I'd like to introduce them here.

We have Maureen Balsillie from Essex; Wade Carey from Sarnia-Lambton; Pramita Chakraborty from Beaches-East York, and she was in the parade today; Paige Elder

from Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound; Grant Gonzales from Davenport, who was also in the parade today; Andrew Green from Parkdale-High Park; Alexander Koehler from Chatham-Kent-Essex; Hin-Hey Lam from

Markham; Pierre Le Dreff-Kerwin from Elgin-Middlesex-London; Natalie Lu from Lambton-Kent-Middlesex; Michelle MacKinnon from York North; Kalaneet Malik from Niagara Centre; Matthew Mook Sang from

Ottawa Centre; Emma Moore from Simcoe North; Michelle Proietti from Brant; Nazir Shergool from York West; Alexandre Soulodre from Oak Ridges; Alexander Steele from Sault Ste Marie --

Mr Gilles Bisson (Timmins-James Bay): Formerly Timmins.

The Speaker: Formerly Timmins -- Adrienne Stockwell from Mississauga West; and Lauren Wilson from Burlington.

Please join me in welcoming this new group of pages.

What we'll do while we're waiting is we can stand down the --

Interjection.

The Speaker: There have got to be questions somewhere down the road.

If that's the case, we can move in rotation to the NDP and their questions.

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): With respect, Speaker, I have questions for the Premier as well.

The Speaker: What we can do is then go to the --

Interjection: Let's just all sit around and wait for the Premier.

The Speaker: We can stand the first lead questions down.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Just a quick moment, if we can.

Just for some clarification, we can stand down the lead questions, and if the Liberals want to do that, we would stand down. If the NDP have the lead question

as well, they can have their second question that they would like to ask.

With the NDP's second question, the member for Niagara Centre.

Mr Kormos: Once again, Speaker, if I may, we're required to wait for the Premier. Can I suggest a five-minute recess, which might resolve

this?

The Speaker: I'm afraid we tried that. We got some noes. You need unanimous consent.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Problem solved. We'll just give him time to get settled.

We know you're always ready. Thank goodness.

It is now time for oral questions, and the leader of the official opposition.

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): We'll judge that by the quality of his answers.

ORAL QUESTIONS

KYOTO PROTOCOL

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My questions are for the Premier. On the matter of the Kyoto accord, you should know that is

something we support without reservation. We believe global warming is real. We believe we owe it to our kids to be part of the solution put forward by the Kyoto accord. We also believe there are

tremendous economic opportunities for Ontario in a cleaner, more energy-efficient economy. We also know where Ralph Klein stands on this issue. With both feet firmly planted in the 19th century,

he's become an advocate for his oil and gas industry.

We know what Ontario families want. They want a cleaner environment and they want the new, clean job opportunities that come through the Kyoto accord. What we

want to know today, Premier, is, whose side are you on? Are you on the side of Ralph Klein and the oil and gas industry, or are you on the side of Ontario families?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): I'm obviously on the side of Ontario families, and that means not putting

450,000 of them out of a job.

Mr McGuinty: Premier, you should know there will be the usual wailing, gnashing of teeth and rending of garments from the business industry on

this thing. Listen to the worst-case scenario described by the National Post in a column written by Andrew Coyne. He says in the National Post, "Those are the latest figures from the federal

government: On the most probable set of assumptions, a reduction in economic growth of 0.4%, or about 61,000 jobs. To put the latter figure in perspective, that's about as many jobs as the economy

currently spins off every six weeks." They go on to describe that the worst-case scenario talks about a 1.6% smaller economy over the course of eight years.

You will remember, sir, that during Countdown Acid Rain, Inco in particular said, "If we have to abide by these regulations, you're going to put us out of

business." Today they are the most cost-effective producer of nickel on the face of the earth, and they're selling their technological know-how to the world. Why don't you stand up for the Kyoto

accord, and by so doing stand up for a cleaner environment and lots of job opportunities?

Hon Mr Eves: to the leader of the official opposition, sure there are opportunities for new technologies and we stand fully behind that. Also,

with respect to reducing greenhouse gas emissions, there is nobody I know of who's not in favour of reducing those emissions. But he also knows that the federal government does not have a plan as

to how they're going to do it. If they have one, it's well hidden. If you have it, perhaps you'd like to share it with us. The Prime Minister certainly doesn't have one. He does not have a concrete

plan as to how he's going to achieve those targets without putting hundreds of thousands of Canadians out of a job. Now, if you're in favour of putting hundreds of thousands of Ontarians out of a

job, you should stand up and say so in this Legislature.

Mr McGuinty: The sky is falling, Premier. I guess the sky is falling over there.

Your responsibility is to represent the future to the present. That's what leaders are supposed to do. And you know what? Fossil fuels are on the way out. Our

responsibility together is to get our province over there. My clean air plan takes us three quarters of the way toward satisfying our responsibilities under the Kyoto accord. You may think it's

acceptable, Premier, to sit on your hands and ask the federal government to come up with their plan. I think that's irresponsible. We put forward a plan. It talks about cleaner electricity

generation, cleaner gasoline and greater investment in public transit. Now, that's a plan.

I'm asking you once more: why won't you stand up for the Kyoto accord, and at the same time stand up for cleaner air and more and better job opportunities for

Ontario?

Hon Mr Eves: We are standing up for a cleaner environment. For his information, the Prime Minister of Canada and the federal government of

Canada are not going to adhere to the Kyoto Protocol. They are going to count credits for all kinds of things they've done since 1990: for exports of natural gas since 1990, for oil since 1990, for

planting trees in other countries since 1990. It's a joke. There is no plan. We are prepared to sit down with other provinces and the federal government and hammer out a concrete, made-in-Canada

plan that will create hundreds of thousands of jobs and reduce air emissions at the same time.

RURAL EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Premier. Premier, as I've been travelling around the province, I've been

meeting with many groups of people in smaller communities in particular who have a very real concern about what's happening to their schools. You have a funding formula in place, Premier, which is

biased against smaller rural schools.

I met with a group of parents. I thought it was going to be 20 people -- I asked for a roundtable -- in Glencoe. We were going to talk about the pending

closure of a high school there. Some 250 people showed up. They told me they were very concerned about the fact that when this high school closes, you're going to rip the very heart and soul out of

a small community. You're not just going to remove educational opportunities from them, but it's going to cause terrible harm to the social and economic fabric of a small town in Ontario.

I'm asking you, Premier, on behalf of the people who are concerned about Glencoe High, and on behalf of so many families right across the province in smaller

Ontario communities, what have you got against smaller rural schools which act as the heart and soul of their communities?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): We don't. I have represented a small rural riding for 21 years in the

Legislature in Ontario, and I don't need any lectures from the boy from the big city of Ottawa on small rural municipalities.

Mr McGuinty: I never knew the Premier had such a kinship with the small-town folks across the province. You can certainly never tell on the

basis of what he's doing to small-town schools.

Premier, I have in my hand today a report funded by your government, by Dr Allan Lauzon of the University of Guelph, and it's called Rural Schools and

Educational Reform: Should We Keep Rural Schools Open? A Review of the Literature. Here are his conclusions. He says that kids in small rural schools have higher attendance rates, fewer dropouts,

fewer behavioural problems, higher participation in extracurricular activities, a greater sense of belonging, less feeling of alienation. He says that students learn more and better in smaller

schools, especially disadvantaged schools. He says that you're moving 180 degrees in the wrong direction. He says that instead of closing smaller schools, you should do everything to recognize the

special value they hold, not only to their smaller communities but to the educational community.

I ask you again, Premier: why is it that you continue to have in place a funding formula that is biased against rural schools in Ontario?

Hon Mr Eves: It isn't. In fact, the whole purpose of the funding formula is so that every single student in this province, regardless of

whether they live in Timmins, Timiskaming or Toronto, gets the same treatment with respect to education and the same opportunity. You are the leader who stood up in this House just a few weeks ago,

screaming about how Toronto should be allowed to spend two, three and four times as much per student as a student deserves in Timmins, Timiskaming and other parts of the province of Ontario.

The funding formula for the first time places students across the province on an equal footing, where they deserve to be.

You're talking out of the other side of your mouth today, so whose side are you on? Are you on the side of spending two, three and four times more per student

in some schools boards than they do in other school boards, or are you the Dalton McGuinty who today now wants to spend more money on those school boards that it was all right not to spend the

money on a few weeks ago?

Mr McGuinty: Premier, I'm sure the people of Ontario are going to want to know the basic difference between you and me when it comes to school

closures. Here is the difference: you took $2.2 billion out of public education, forcing school closures. We are going to invest $1.6 billion in public education to enable small communities to keep

the rural schools open. That's a fundamental difference.

Here's something else that Dr Lauzon says, and I'm sure you're going to be very interested in this. He says, and I quote from his report prepared for your

government, "The alleged savings that can be realized have more to do with rhetoric and ideology than with the empirical realities of what we currently know." He concludes that small schools are

worth saving and worth the cost.

As I understand it, Premier, you would argue that the economies of scale simply don't hold true in smaller communities, and maybe we should never have run

hydro lines into smaller communities in Ontario; maybe we shouldn't have hospitals in smaller communities in Ontario. But we on this side of the House, in this party, happen to value smaller

communities and rural Ontario.

I ask you once again, why is it that you continue to have in place a funding formula that is biased against rural schools in small-town Ontario?

Hon Mr Eves: The leader of the official opposition is talking about a plan that he says he has to spend $1.6 billion more over the next five

years. We're already spending $1.5 billion more than we were when we were first elected on this side of the House, and this year we're spending $557 million more, over half a billion more in this

year, partway through a school year. That makes your plan, quite frankly, pale in comparison to what we have already done and will continue to do as we go forward and as Dr Rozanski's report comes

in on the funding formula.

It is because of those needs of students in different parts of Ontario that we changed the funding formula and that we

will continue to change the funding formula so it can address not only boards of education, but individual schools within boards of education, so we can do what's best for each child in the

province, regardless of what circumstances or geographical location they happen to be born into in the province of Ontario.

KYOTO PROTOCOL

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): A question for the Premier: Premier, Ontario should be the green giant when it comes to Kyoto. We

should be leading the way to cleaner air. But you are making the situation worse by selling our public hydro system to private polluters like TransAlta who are fighting tooth and nail against

Kyoto, private polluters who want to run dirty coal-fired generating stations full blast because they can make more money. What is the logic of selling Ontario's hydroelectricity system to the very

corporate polluters who are fighting tooth and nail against Kyoto?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): If the leader of the third party is talking about TransAlta's $400-million

investment in a gas-powered plant in Sarnia, then I think he'd better check his facts.

If he's talking about the Bob Rae government that did absolutely nothing about polluting the environment and burning fossil fuels, he was a cabinet minister in

that government. Why didn't he stand up and be counted on what is now, he says, a very important issue to him, a matter of principle? Obviously you had no principles or you didn't care about the

environment between 1990 and 1995.

Mr Hampton: Premier, you're the government that wants to sell a publicly operated hydro system to the same corporate polluters who have shown

their colours in the United States. Deregulated, private hydro there means that coal is king and clean air goes down the drain. That's the historical reality.

Ontarians don't want the American way. Ontarians want cleaner air. They want accountable public power. They want binding smog reduction targets and they want

tough enforcement.

So, Premier, will you endorse Kyoto and cleaner air today?

Hon Mr Eves: I will endorse cleaner air today and every day because that is the future of (

a) our province and (

b) our country. But let me

make it clear that the federal government has no intention whatsoever of strictly adhering to the Kyoto Protocol. They are going to come up with their own scheme of credits, things they've already

spent money on and things that have already been exported to the States, in some cases 12 years ago, and they're going to count those as part of meeting the Kyoto Protocol, much to the chagrin of

those in the international community.

I think we need an honest and transparent objective that we can reach, that is made in Canada by Canadians, that every province can take

part in, and there can

be realistic goals that we can meet not only to clean up the environment here in Canada but worldwide and to create jobs at the same time.

Mr Hampton: Premier, if your issue is that the Liberals in Ottawa are being wishy-washy on Kyoto, that's probably true, but the real question

is, are you prepared to be a leader? Are you prepared to lead the way?

Ralph Klein, the corporate front man for the polluters, is going to be in town today and of course he's going to fearmonger about Kyoto. You know that Ontario

has the worst air in Canada and we are the economy that is the least dependent on oil and gas production. Eighty per cent of Ontarians want you to endorse Kyoto and cleaner air. The question for

you is this: are you Ralph Klein's poodle or are you going to be the green giant? Will you show some leadership on Kyoto?

Hon Mr Eves: With respect to clean air, the province of Ontario has been at the forefront in leadership with respect to Drive Clean, with

respect to phasing out Lakeview by 2005, with respect to not agreeing to sell Thunder Bay and Atikokan this summer to US interests that wanted to continue to burn coal unless they're prepared to

convert them to gas, with respect to continued technological improvements to both Nanticoke and Lambton to reduce emissions there by 80% by next year. That is the commitment on this side of the

House. We will continue to drive forward and lead the country with respect to greenhouse gas reductions.

TORONTO TRANSIT COMMISSION

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): Premier, if you want to show some leadership on the issue of dealing with smog and greenhouse gas

reduction, there's something very practical you could do today. The TTC has announced that they will have to increase transit fares once again because your government doesn't support public

transit. When you don't support public transit financially, it drives more people into their cars, which means more smog and more greenhouse gases. You could show leadership today by announcing

that your government is prepared to properly fund public transit. Will you do that today and show leadership?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): TTC has received more than $1.8 billion from the province of Ontario since

1986. We recently just funded TTC to the tune of $126 million and we are sharing another project with the federal government with respect to a platform down at Union Station which I believe is

another $56 million. Believe me, we have more than done our part with respect to TTC and our commitment to it since 1996.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Final supplementary.

Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): The Toronto Transit Commission has announced that they are going to have to raise the fares by 10 cents.

This will be a total increase in fares to the people who ride the Toronto Transit Commission, the people of the GTA, of 46% since 1995. I voted against it, by the way. In terms of real pocketbook,

that is $438 per year out of the pockets of transit users in Toronto and in the GTA. We have proposed setting up a fund for Toronto and for other cities of some $113 million to the Toronto Transit

Commission under the Ontario transportation trust fund.

Premier, will you assist the people of the GTA, the people of Toronto, who use public transit in Toronto, so they will not be hit in the pocketbook yet

again?

Hon Mr Eves: If what the honourable member is asking for is some sort of direct subsidy in place of the TTC reviewing its business practices

and doing what they have done in other jurisdictions, for example, in Australia, where lots of places have contracted out certain routes for public transit -- in one case, I forget whether it's

Adelaide or Melbourne, they actually have 52 different entities contributing to the overall mass transit system in that city, and it functions a heck of a lot better than the TTC does here in

Toronto.

There are some things the Toronto Transit Commission can do, I believe, to adopt better business practices, to make themselves more cost-efficient. We will be

there with the federal government, as we have pledged to do, to do our part to ensure transit works properly in Ontario.

TRANSIT SERVICES

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Premier. Premier, you and the NDP have been talking the usual rhetoric

about helping our cities when it comes to public transit. We have a plan. Our plan specifically provides that we are going to transfer two cents of the provincial gas tax over to our municipal

partners on condition that they invest that in public transit. There's a real plan.

The TTC is facing a $78-million shortfall this year and the fallout effects are predictable. Services are going to decline, fares are going to rise, ridership

will drop off, gridlock will worsen and so will air quality. You don't have a plan to help out the TTC and other public transit systems around the province, and neither, for that matter, does the

NDP. We have a plan. I'm asking you, Premier, why do you not adopt our plan and start helping our municipal partners to provide greater opportunities when it comes to public transit in Ontario?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): Would that two cents a litre be an additional two cents a litre that you're

going to charge on our fuel tax or would you take it away from the $1 billion worth of highway projects in the province that is being spent this year?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Members, come to order. Government benches, it's too loud in here. Keep it down. And the same with the other

side. It's starting to get too loud in here. If I have to get up, people are going to have to leave. It's getting too noisy in here. I'll give you some leeway; I know it's caucus day. Enough is

enough. If I get up again, people are going out.

The leader of the official opposition had the floor.

Mr McGuinty: Premier, I don't pretend to have any more money than you have, but I will tell you one thing: we have different priorities.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I just got up. I'm naming the member for London-Fanshawe. I'm asking Frank Mazzilli to leave. We are not going to continue

with this. You're not going to shout two seconds after I sit down. I ask you to leave.

Mr Mazzilli was escorted from the chamber.

The Speaker: I should probably ask anybody else who wants to shout to leave now on their own and save the Sergeant at Arms the trouble and

save the pages from having to stand up, because we're just going to throw people out. I think my record is at 26. We'll just keep adding to it.

Just so you know, in New Brunswick, my Speaker counterpart down there has thrown out one person who's now the official Leader of the Opposition. The next day

he came in and apologized for doing that. I'm at 26. My colleagues, I think, are even higher. We'll just keep setting records here and keep throwing you out if you behave like that.

The leader of the official opposition has the floor.

Mr McGuinty: We have different priorities, Premier. You are going to put another $2.2 billion into tax breaks for large corporations. We won't

do that. We'll make that money available to support our priorities, including health care, better education and better protection for our environment.

One of the things we are going to do is to free up two cents of the provincial gas tax, as it now exists, and turn that over to our cities so that they can

invest in public transit, so that we can address the gridlock issues in Ontario, so that we can get more people out of their cars, so that we can clean up our air. That's what we're after here.

We've got a plan to help out public transit. I'm asking you, where's your plan?

Hon Mr Eves: First of all, I might remind him that it's the taxpayers' money, not mine and not his. Second of all, with respect to his

supposed plan, he wants to take two cents a litre, which would be about $300 million --

Mr McGuinty: That's $312 million.

Hon Mr Eves: That wasn't bad off the top of my head -- $312 million if you insist -- away from what's being spent on provincial highways, if I

get this right. He wants to take that away, reduce the road budget for municipalities, reduce the budget for provincial highways and spend it on urban transit, or he just wants to make up $312

million. The $2.2 billion that he talks about in terms of corporate tax breaks is not being spent today, so you can't take it away from where it doesn't exist. You have to treat reality as it

exists. You want to take $300 million away from roads in this province and spend it on transit. You'll win a lot of seats in rural Ontario with that.

CURRICULUM

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): My question is to the Minister of Education. Minister, recently the Liberal education critic has made accusations

that this government, in fact your ministry, has failed students across the province. It's because, they suggest, we have implemented a rigorous new curriculum. They are saying that we are

abandoning two thirds of the students and they are being left behind. I believe he even shamefully referred to them as curriculum casualties. Can you please enlighten us, and particularly the

member from Parkdale-High Park, as to exactly what this government is doing to help students not just to adjust to the new curriculum but to ensure that each and every student succeeds to their

individual and optimum potential.

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Deputy Premier, Minister of Education): I thank the member for the question. Since our government was elected in 1995,

we have listened to the families and people in the province of Ontario and made sure that our students have the basic literacy and math skills that they are going to require to be able to find a

job and to be successful, productive citizens. I can tell you we have put in place a new curriculum. We are doing the evaluation of how well our students are achieving the curriculum in order that

we can give them the appropriate support in order that they can go on to college, to university, into an apprenticeship or into the world of work. I am very pleased to say that, as we take a look

at the testing that is being done and the help and remediation that teachers are able to provide, we are seeing an increase in success. We see our plan to help students achieve success working. I

want you to know that we've invested $25 million in annual funding to help students in grades 7 and 10 to get the extra help they need in reading, math and writing. We've introduced early literacy

and math programs.

Mr O'Toole: Thank you very much for that response, Minister. I know your personal commitment to education, and I know our government's

commitment to education. I know we would not stand by idly and jeopardize the future of our young people. I know that we have a very strong interest in ensuring that all students, once they leave

high school, are prepared for whatever path they choose, whether it is post-secondary education or indeed directly to the workplace. Can you elaborate on the kinds of programs and resources

available to our students in Ontario who may be challenged by our rigorous new curriculum?

Hon Mrs Witmer: One thing that we are doing as part of our plan to help our students achieve success and their maximum potential is to make

sure that our teachers are well prepared. Research demonstrates that in order for teachers to be able to communicate and teach the skills of literacy, science and math, we need to support them. We

have provided $370 million to teachers and students to help implement the new curriculum. We have given $7 million in the last four years for teacher training and $80 million for professional

resources. We now have early identification and intervention strategies for students at risk. We are moving forward with work-to-school programs, co-op programs, summer programs. We are making sure

that every student in this province has that opportunity to achieve success. We appreciate the hard work of our teachers in helping us make sure students achieve success, because that's our plan:

that every student achieves success.

KYOTO PROTOCOL

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I have a question for the Premier. For several months, you have been dodging any and all opportunities to

take a firm position on the Kyoto accord, an environmental agreement which will go a long way to cleaning up Ontario's air and saving lives.

We know that tomorrow you will be meeting with Premier Ralph Klein, who is clearly out to protect the oil patch and the oil industry from any effects that

environmental improvements might have on that industry. We know your energy minister last week was a spokesperson on behalf of the anti-Kyoto coalition at a reception here in the Legislature, a

coalition that is travelling the country emphasizing its opposition to Kyoto.

You say your government has no position, Mr Premier, but you have within the Ministry of the Environment over 400 pages of documentation related to the Kyoto

accord. At a time when you say there isn't sufficient information available, why are you hiding from the public over 400 pages of information that they should have about the Kyoto accord?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): I'm sure the Minister of Energy could respond.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): The Minister of Energy. Oh, the Minister of the Environment.

Hon Chris Stockwell (Minister of the Environment, Government House Leader): Thank you. That was an old job.

With respect to the 400 pages of documentation, there is no doubt that we are working feverishly, going over as much as we can to try and ascertain what the

federal government's position on Kyoto is. We have tried our best to discover exactly what the level of reduction is, what the credits are, what approach they are going to take.

Interjections.

Hon Mr Stockwell: I'm sorry, I can't keep going. I keep getting interrupted, member from Don Valley. It is frustrating.

The Speaker: Answer?

Hon Mr Stockwell: That's it. Thanks.

Mr Bradley: A supplementary to the Premier: I am concerned about the fact that your government has been hiding this information from the

public for months. The original freedom-of-information request made by my office was made nearly seven months ago, on March 30, 2002. Two months later, on May 23, 2002, a response was sent stating

that the request was received; in another two months, on July 15, a full four months after the original request, another letter from MOE's freedom-of-information office manager stating that after a

thorough search of the strategic policy branch, 411 records were located regarding the Kyoto accord. Here we are today, on October 22, over three months since the records were recovered, and not a

single document has been produced.

My office has asked the privacy commissioner's office to look into this, because under Ontario's freedom of information laws the documents should have been

produced immediately.

Premier, we know you secretly have ordered significant amounts of analysis to be undertaken regarding the Kyoto Protocol. We know that your government is not

telling the whole story. Tell us why you are refusing to reveal the policy your government has secretly prepared on the Kyoto accord.

Hon Mr Stockwell: What a load of bunk from the member opposite. Secret? It's FOI-able. You FOI-ed it. You're going to get the information

Mr Bradley: Seven months later and you won't give it to me.

The Speaker: Order. We've got to be fair. I'm afraid I'm going to have to name the member for St Catharines as well. We can't be shouting out

like that. I'm going to have to ask Mr Bradley to leave as well.

Mr Bradley was escorted from the chamber.

The Speaker: The Minister of the Environment?

Hon Mr Stockwell: The information is FOI and it will be provided. You're talking about 400 pages. It could be as simple as a request for a

meeting from the federal government. It could be a meeting requested by the ministry staff. There is nothing on the table that we have that is the least bit interesting, because all the information

has been sequestered and gathered by the federal government. Only the federal government has the information about how the Kyoto Protocol is going to work, what their plan is going to be, what the

reductions in greenhouse gas emissions are. They haven't told us, nor have they told Alberta, Nova Scotia or any of the other provinces. If you want to get information, maybe you should FOI your

cousins in Ottawa and find out what's going on.

FOODLAND ONTARIO

Mr Norm Miller (Parry Sound-Muskoka): My question is for the Minister of Agriculture and Food. Ontario farmers have built a solid reputation

for continually producing high-quality food for the domestic and international marketplaces. I'm also aware that food retailers are implementing new and innovative approaches to promote Ontario

produce to consumers across the province.

Minister, could you inform the Legislature on a recent announcement by your ministry that recognized the extraordinary efforts of food retailers in

Ontario?

Hon Helen Johns (Minister of Agriculture and Food): This morning, I was pleased to attend the Foodland Ontario Retail Awards ceremony at the

Toronto Congress Centre. Our government recognized 23 outstanding retailers for their efforts in both promoting and selling Ontario produce. The winners were selected from a slate of 452 entries,

who all submitted different photos to show how they had displayed Ontario produce. There were two winners today who have won platinum awards for two years. They were Blaine Turner from Green's IGA

in Thornbury and Tyler Allan from Wheeler's Independent in Brockville.

I want to recognize the co-sponsors of these awards. They were the Ontario Fruit and Vegetable Growers' Association, the Ontario Greenhouse Vegetable Growers'

Association, the Ontario Tender Fruit Producers' Marketing Board, the Ontario Apple Marketers Association and the Ontario Marsh Grown.

Again, I want to thank all the retailers and participants for being involved in this important program to keep Ontario produce in the forefront.

Mr Miller: Thank you for that answer, Minister. It's important that we all support Ontario food growers.

Congratulations to the retailers across Ontario for their efforts. I understand Alexandra Polmateer from Foodland in Port Sydney in the beautiful riding of

Parry Sound-Muskoka was at the event to collect her gold medal, so I'd like to congratulate her.

Many Ontarians are very familiar with the green and white Foodland Ontario symbol that appears throughout the retail sector. Can you explain to the Legislature

how this important program has evolved and the benefits it offers to all participants in the Ontario agri-food industry?

Hon Mrs Johns: The Foodland program offers significant benefits to the province's agri-food sector. This program was established by OMAF some

25 years ago. In that time, the program has produced innovative partnerships with industry to effectively promote Ontario-grown produce. Retailers partnered with Foodland Ontario and, because of

that, it gives them a competitive advantage.

I'm sure many of us know that when we see Foodland brochures in stores, we want to reach for that produce. Based on the research findings we've done recently,

there is a high degree of consumer trust with the Foodland Ontario insignia. The Foodland Ontario symbol has significant recognition -- amazing recognition -- and consumers look for this logo when

they bring their product home. This is a very productive partnership that happens between producers, retailers and consumers in Ontario -- a win-win for everybody in agriculture.

FOREST INDUSTRY

Mr Gilles Bisson (Timmins-James Bay): My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources. You will know that specifically Tembec workers and

generally the community of Kirkland Lake have been dealt a devastating blow with the announcement by Tembec of the closure of their Kirkland Lake sawmill. This on top of a long litany of job losses

that Kirkland Lake has had to suffer over the past years could not come at a worse time. Yesterday, I met with the Tembec workers in Kirkland Lake and spoke to the mayor of Kirkland Lake, Bill

Enouy. They've asked me to appeal to you directly for your help.

As you know, your ministry has approved an amendment to Tembec's sustainable forest redevelopment licence that allows crown wood that is destined for the

Kirkland Lake mill to bypass that mill and be trucked instead for processing outside of Kirkland Lake, thus killing those jobs in Kirkland Lake. Minister, will you overturn your ministry's

decision, stand with Kirkland Lake, redirect that wood back to Kirkland Lake and get those people in to work again?

Hon Jerry J. Ouellette (Minister of Natural Resources): Any job loss in the forestry industry is certainly a concern for small communities in

northern Ontario. This is another example of the impact of the softwood lumber duties that have taken place here in Ontario.

Tembec has made business decisions as they relate to the forest industry, and this is a decision they've come forward

with. In the short term, we've decided, in the best interests of the logging contractors working in the Tembec area, to allow them to continue to work in the Tembec area, to allow the fibre to

move. I have met with the officials of Tembec. They have come forward with some mitigation plans that would allow individuals within that industry to be relocated and also to bring forward some

opportunities for new training to reintroduce work opportunities for individuals in the Tembec plants.

Mr Bisson: Minister, that has absolutely nothing to do with what you're talking about. It's your ministry's decision to redirect that wood.

The contractors don't want the wood to go outside of Kirkland Lake. They want that wood processed in the Kirkland Lake area. That wood is destined for the benefit of that community.

You're an honourable member; I know you and you work hard at what you do. I'm asking you to stand with the people of Kirkland Lake and say that you will allow

that licence to continue with that mill. If Tembec can't operate, too bad. Other people are prepared to take over. Will you work toward a plan that keeps that wood in Kirkland Lake for the benefit

of the people of Kirkland Lake?

Hon Mr Ouellette: I met with those individuals in this specific area and not one of those individuals asked for that fibre to be kept in that

area. If this is the case, the member should meet with those individuals and discuss that, because those individuals came to me and specifically did not say they had any allocation problems at all.

Yesterday, as a result of that meeting, we know that the best interests of keeping those forest workers working at Tembec in the Kirkland Lake area is to allow that fibre to be relocated to mills

in Timmins and the Cochrane area.

HYDRO RATES

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): A question to the Premier: being a man of the people, I'm sure you're very concerned these days

about your hydro bill. You've been telling us that the reason we've had to contend with these skyrocketing hydro bills is that we've had the hottest summer on record, that demand was way up, and

that because demand was up, our price was up.

I have two comparable periods, one in the spring and one this fall, one for the period of May 29 to June 4 and one from October 2 to October 8, where the

average hourly demand was roughly 16,000 megawatts. But for the period of May-June, the price being charged Ontarians was 3.35 cents per kilowatt hour,

whereas in October -- remember, it's the same

demand now -- the price was 5.28 cents per kilowatt hour. It was 60% more at one time for the same demand in comparison to another period. I'm asking you, as the owner of OPG, which produces 70% of

our generation in the province, why is it there's a 60% difference during a time when there was the exact same demand?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): I'd be happy to take this specific incident and the specifics the leader of

the official opposition has talked to me about and look into it. I have a few copies of invoices here myself with respect to hydro from people in the same period, April 12 to June 11 this year,

compared to last year. This year their bill for that period of time was $178; last year it was $186. I have two or three other examples, if you'd care to go into them in your supplementary.

Mr McGuinty: I want to return to the same issue, Premier, because you're telling us that we had a very hot summer, that demand for electricity

was way up, and that the result was it affected our prices, and prices went up. But here is a specific occasion, from October 2 to October 8 and May 29 to June 4, where demand was roughly

comparable, roughly 16,000 megawatts, and yet there's a 60% difference in the price being charged to the people of Ontario. What this really comes down to is that this has nothing to do with market

forces. It has to do with the fact that your ownership of 70% of the generation capacity in the province is less than competent when it comes to managing Hydro and making sure we're getting the

best bang for the buck.

I will be delighted to refer these details to you, but I ask you again on behalf of the people of Ontario, you've been telling us that the reason we're facing

these skyrocketing rates is because demand has been going through the roof. I have a specific case where this is not in fact what is happening in Ontario. I'm asking you again, why are Ontarians

paying 60% more at one time in comparison to another when demand was the same?

Hon Mr Eves: No, that isn't what I've been saying. What I've been saying is that during the months of May and June the price per kilowatt hour

was lower than it was before, that during the months of July, August and September it was higher, and that during the month of October it's back to being about the same. In fact, on half the days

it's been lower. That's what I've been saying consistently as we've stood in the House and debated this issue.

ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE PROGRAM

Mr Garfield Dunlop (Simcoe North): My question today is for the Minister of Public Safety and Security. This government has always held

offenders accountable for their actions and put the safety of our communities and the rights of victims above those of offenders.

One of the initiatives of our government has been the electronic monitoring program you started several years ago, which I understand has been working very

well. This program is for a select few offenders who are serving an intermittent sentence and have been approved for a temporary absence from the institution. Minister, I understand that you plan

to improve the types of electronic systems the ministry uses through an initiative called the electronic surveillance program. Could you please give the members of this House an update on the

electronic surveillance program?

Hon Robert W. Runciman (Minister of Public Safety and Security): I thank the member for Simcoe North for the question. I'm pleased to tell the

House that on Friday we announced that JEMTEC Inc has been awarded the contract for the delivery of our electronic surveillance program. As members of the House may know, the ministry has been

working with this company since 1996 to monitor selected offenders using a radio frequency anklet. The program has been working well to date, and now new second-generation technology is available

that will allow offenders to be kept under much more intrusive electronic surveillance. We've invested an additional $2.4 million to give our staff the tools they need to help protect the

law-abiding citizens of this province. We expect this new and improved program will be up and running in the very near future.

Mr Dunlop: I'm sure that the members of this House are as eager as I am to have this program operational. I know that the residents of my

constituency will be eager to hear how this program will work, considering we are host to one of the new correctional centres in the town of Penetanguishene. As you mentioned, the original program

is currently limited to those offenders serving intermittent sentences and they are monitored using a radio frequency anklet.

Minister, could you please tell the House how our government's investment and partnership with JEMTEC will expand the electronic surveillance program?

Hon Mr Runciman: I'm pleased to tell the members that the new and improved electronic surveillance program will be able to much more

intrusively and intensively keep tabs on a variety of offenders sentenced in the community, and not just those serving intermittent sentences. This new system will include cutting-edge technologies

such as global positioning and voice verification, allowing corrections officials to know that an offender is where he or she is supposed to be and, if not, to immediately respond in the interests

of safety.

It's important to say that electronic technology is not intended to replace the work that's done by the dedicated front-line correctional staff, nor will it

replace incarceration. The program is simply a new, improved tool to help staff keep track of selected community-sentenced offenders, to increase deterrence and, most importantly, enhance the

safety and security of our neighbourhoods.

HOME CARE

Mr Steve Peters (Elgin-Middlesex-London): My question is for the Minister of Health. The VON day programs in Middlesex county have enabled

countless individuals to live independently and with dignity in their own communities. Seniors and those with developmental and physical disabilities or serious ailments are able to stay in their

homes, thanks to the volunteer services in their communities.

VON Middlesex, though, has been forced to cut services for vulnerable because you have refused to significantly increase the base funding over the past five

years to meet the increase in need. There is a $94,000 deficit. The real hurt you are causing includes day programming reduced to one day per week, Meals on Wheels cut to three days per week, and

client user fees to increase even to those who are terminally ill and to those with Alzheimer's. Seniors and disabled persons are going to suffer as a result of your refusal to increase the

funding.

Minister, will you commit today to increasing the Middlesex county VON's funding so that their most vulnerable citizens do not have to leave their homes?

Hon Tony Clement (Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): I can confirm to this House that in fact funding for home care was increased as part

of the Ernie Eves budget of this year. Certainly, from our perspective, there has been a more than 72% increase in funding for home care in Ontario since the PC government was first elected in

1995. So this is a priority for us. Clearly we felt that it was necessary to ensure that the money was going to the front-line recipients of this kind of care. It is an integral part of making sure

that we deliver quality health care as close to home as possible.

Mr Peters: But, Minister, your numbers are skewed, because a mere 2% of the increase in funding to the Middlesex VON was allocated to program

growth. By this time, though, the VON has seen its service increase by over 57%. They are providing, to this date, 20,000 additional units of service.

The VON in Middlesex has maxed out on user fees beyond affordability. They've maxed out on fundraising. They cannot bridge the gap. Without increased funding

people in Middlesex county -- and you have two representatives, Mr Beaubien and Mr Johnson -- are going to suffer. I also represent this county. Seniors will not be able to live in their homes.

Developmentally disabled adults are losing the day programs that they enjoyed and looked forward to.

Minister, such services as Meals on Wheels and respite day programs are about dignity and meaningful quality of life. These programs have saved the health care

system millions of dollars over the years.

I ask you again, will you commit to increasing the funding to the Middlesex VON so that the most vulnerable are not forced to suffer as a result of your

funding shortfalls?

Hon Mr Clement: I can confirm to this House that since 1994-95, Middlesex home care has gone from $28.7 million worth of funding to $38.37

million worth of funding from this government. By my thumbnail calculations, that's an over 25% increase, not including the increase from this fiscal year. Globally, in Ontario the amount of

funding for home care has gone from $695 million to $1.138 billion. This is showing our commitment to this sector. We believe it is important to invest in home care. Incidentally, these are 100%

provincial dollars. Not a penny comes from the federal government in this regard. We certainly are anticipating and hoping that Roy Romanow has something to say about this. But I can tell you it

has been a commitment of this government and the Ernie Eves government has continued on that commitment for the right kind of funding to ensure that services are adequate as close to home as

possible.

LONG-TERM CARE

Mr Garfield Dunlop (Simcoe North): My second question today is for the Associate Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. I am really pleased

that we had the opportunity to work together at the seniors' information forum that I held last Friday in Midland. Just a little over 500 people attended that informational centre. The event was a

tremendous opportunity to get together and discuss the programs and safeguards that are in place for seniors, not only in Simcoe North but right across our province. It was also a great chance to

hear what's on the minds of my constituents and talk about the issues that matter most to them. Minister, for the benefit of this House, could you please provide an update on the status of

long-term-care redevelopment in Simcoe North?

Hon Dan Newman (Associate Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): I thank the hard-working member for Simcoe North for his question. I very

much enjoyed taking

part in his seniors' information forum and I congratulate him on a very successful event held last Friday in Midland.

I'm proud to say that in the Simcoe service area, a total of 665 new long-term-care beds have been allocated for construction; 332 are already in operation,

and a further 24 will be opened in November. As well, six existing category D facilities are redeveloping a total of 479 beds, and 213 of those beds have already been completed to date.

Our government's historic $1.2-billion long-term-care initiative is making a real difference in the lives of seniors and those who require long-term care in

Simcoe North and indeed across our great province of Ontario, because it will mean even better care for residents today, better care for residents tomorrow and better care for residents in the

years to come.

Mr Dunlop: Thank you very much for that response, Minister. I know our long-term-care initiatives are making a real difference in the lives of

my constituents and Ontarians from right across our province. As you know, several of my constituents at the event asked us how far Ontario has come since 1995 in providing quality long-term-care

services for our province's seniors. Minister, for the benefit of this House, could you please provide an update on the progress we made as a province in providing quality long-term care over the

past seven years?

Hon Mr Newman: I once again thank the member for Simcoe North for his question. There is no question that long-term care in Ontario has come a

long way since our government was first elected by the people of Ontario in 1995. Unlike previous provincial governments, we will not compromise when it comes to the health and well-being of our

most vulnerable. We will continue to make important investments for today and continue to make important investments for tomorrow.

After all, in 1995, not only did we inherit an $11-billion deficit after a decade of Liberal and NDP government, but we also inherited a decade of neglect with

respect to investments in the long-term-care sector. Ernie Eves's government, however, is taking action where it is needed through investments such as our $1.2-billion investment toward new and

redeveloped long-term-care beds in Ontario, and, I might add, with our $100 million in new funding for nursing and personal care services.

I say to this House today that we will continue to work hard to improve access to long-term-care services in our province.

HIGHWAY 407

Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): My question is to the Minister of Transportation. Every day people driving on the 407 are encountering

problems with the organization that runs it. Today they are being bilked -- and I use that word advisedly -- and I'm asking what your government is going to do. The problem is that the transponders

that many people on the 407 use are getting old. They have batteries inside them, and those batteries are running out. But there's no way of knowing that your battery no longer works. There's no

little light that goes on. People don't know. When they find out that their battery no longer works, because they get a bill that says, "You owe $30 because you don't have a transponder," they

phone immediately and they find out that nobody answers the phone. They wait on the phone for an hour, for two hours, and nobody answers. Nobody answers the e-mails. They go to a kiosk, and no one

can answer at the kiosk, because the kiosks don't have phones either. They go back to the phone. I ask you, phone 1-888-407-0407 and just stand there and wait yourself. You'll never get

through.

What I'm asking is, what are you going to do to improve the service of the travelling public who use this road literally every day --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): The member's time is up.

Hon Norman W. Sterling (Minister of Transportation): I'm told that when a transponder is not working it doesn't react the same way as it does

when it is working. As I understand it, there is a sound and a light which indicates whether or not it is in fact working. That takes care of one of the allegations of the member opposite as to

whether a person knows that it is or isn't working.

We have been working with the 407 to ensure that their level of client service does improve, because we believe that in fact their ability to answer phones, to

respond to requests was not adequate in the past. I did happen to go out and see their new, enlarged headquarters for dealing with clients' concerns. They have assured me that the response time has

dropped dramatically from what it was before. But I'm glad to look into it for the member and ensure that they continue to improve their record of client service.

Mr Prue: People, quite honestly, do not understand when the batteries are working and when they aren't. I have to tell you that maybe some

members opposite might know, but most of the general public does not know when those transponders are working. But there is literally no staff to help them. They stay on the phone for 15 minutes,

20 minutes, sometimes for hours. They are then levied a fine of some $30. If they refuse to pay the fine, then they are charged even more money. After they are charged more money, their account is

sent to a collection agency. Then they are told that they will not be able to renew their licence and that this government stands behind that private corporation to stop legitimate people from

renewing their licence because they refuse to pay usurious charges.

Minister, will you ensure that there is adequate staffing to make sure that every person gets to talk to someone in person? Will you ensure that there is less

draconian enforcement, that people are not threatened with losing their licence, so that honest citizens can avoid the bureaucratic nightmares of this corporation?

Hon Mr Sterling: The 407 is dealing with millions of people who are using the 407 on a daily basis. Therefore they are attempting in some ways

to deal with the tremendous number of questions, concerns, the information which is necessary in order to run a large venture, as this is.

Under the contract which the government has entered into with the 407, there is the provision for licence denial. But we have made it clear to the 407 that we

will not use licence denial to deal with administrative charges. We have held tight on that. We are not using licence denial at this time for any --

The Speaker: I'm afraid the minister's time is up.

CORPORATE TAX

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): My question is to the Premier. We are the most export-oriented jurisdiction in the world; 95% to

the US. We have decided to compete with the US on the basis of, I gather, corporate taxes 25% lower than the US. Corporate taxes are 40%, and in Ontario, the plan is to move them to 30%. In terms

of forgone revenue, going from 40% to 30%, it's about $5 billion of forgone revenue in the province of Ontario.

I watch Pennsylvania, and they advertise, "Come to Pennsylvania because we graduate more engineers, more scientists, more technologists." But we've decided in

Ontario that we're going to compete on the basis of corporate taxes 25% below those of our competitors.

How did you make the decision that we needed corporate taxes to be not competitive, but 25% lower than the US, at a cost of forgone revenue of roughly $5

billion for Ontario?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): This is the same honourable member who stood in this House at the beginning

of the Common Sense personal income tax reduction and said that our 30% reduction would cost us $5 billion a year in revenue. Not only did it not cost us the $5 billion a year, but we gained an

additional $17 billion. That calculation of yours was only out by $22 billion a year, in a budget of $65 billion. So pardon me if I don't accept your great presumption of another $5-billion loss,

which will probably turn into another $17-billion gain.

VISITORS

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I know that earlier today you introduced and welcomed our new

pages. It would be my privilege to tell the members that the grandparents, Mr and Mrs Bill and Betty Wilson, from my riding are here. They are the grandparents of Lauren Wilson, who is a

constituent of the member for Burlington, Cam Jackson.

PETITIONS

WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT

Mr Richard Patten (Ottawa Centre): I'd like to read a petition which I haven't read for many weeks. The petition is to the Legislative

Assembly of Ontario.

"The unreasonable and inhumane restrictions that the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources (OMNR) is placing on wildlife rehabilitators with respect to the

release of orphaned animals will eliminate their ability to help wildlife; and

"Whereas wildlife rehabilitators provide an essential public service for many thousands of people seeking help on behalf of orphaned and injured wildlife in

Ontario; and

"Whereas the unreasonable release restrictions imposed on wildlife rehabilitators by the OMNR will prevent responsible wildlife rehabilitation, not only

compromising wildlife and frustrating the public but forcing it underground and jeopardizing public safety; and

"Whereas this will incur significant new costs for local governments with respect to bylaw and public health and safety interventions while creating an

emotional and volatile climate because the majority of people in Ontario are simply unwilling to see healthy young animals euthanized;

"We, the undersigned, are deeply concerned that the release restrictions imposed by the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources will eliminate the provision of

responsible wildlife services in our community; and

"We petition the government of Ontario to work with wildlife rehabilitators to ensure that progressive, humane and responsible regulations with respect to

release criteria for rehabilitated orphaned wildlife are put in place in Ontario."

I sign my name to this petition as well.

CHILD CARE

Ms Shelley Martel (Nickel Belt): These petitions have been sent to me by Children's Resources on Wheels from Smiths Falls, Carrie Fallon from

Courtice, Ontario, Growing Together in Blenheim, Ontario, and residents of Balmertown in northwestern Ontario. They read as follows:

"Whereas 70% of Ontario women with children under age 12 are in the paid workforce;

"Whereas high-quality, safe, affordable child care is critical to them and their families;

"Whereas the Early Years Study done for the Conservative government by Dr Fraser Mustard and the Honourable Margaret McCain concluded quality child care

enhances early childhood development;

"Whereas this government has cut funding for regulated child care instead of supporting Ontario families by investing in early learning and care;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that the Ontario government adopt the NDP's $10-a-day child care plan and begin implementation by reducing full child care fees to

$10 a day for children aged two to five currently enrolled in regulated child care by providing capital funds to expand existing child care centres and build new ones, by funding pay equity for

staff and by creating new $10-a-day child care spaces in the province."

I agree with the petitioners. I have affixed my name to this.

EMERGENCY RESPONSE TEAMS

Mr Toby Barrett (Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant): I wish to read a petition. It's titled "Honour Emergency Workers Who Lose Their Lives in the Line

of Duty." I feel this is especially appropriate given the passing of volunteer firefighter April Hopkin.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Ontario Legislature has debated a private member's bill titled the Flags at Half-Mast Act, 2002, requiring flags at all provincial government

buildings be flown at half-mast for a period of mourning to honour police officers, correctional service officers, firefighters and ambulance workers in Ontario who lose their lives in the line of

duty; and

"Whereas our emergency response personnel deserve our thanks and respect for their efforts to ensure the safety and security of all Ontarians; and

"Whereas MPP Toby Barrett has spoken and voted in favour of this legislation;

"We, the undersigned, respectfully petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

"That the government of Ontario support Halton MPP Chudleigh's Flags at Half-Mast Act, 2002, and require all Ontario government buildings to lower their flags

for a period of mourning to pay respect to dedicated men and women who lose their lives in the line of duty."

I support this petition and hereby affix my signature.

HIGHWAY 69

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): I've got several thousand names on this petition. It's part of the 26,000-name petition we have with regard to

multi-laning of Highway 69.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas modern highways are economic lifelines for the north; and

"Whereas the stretch of Highway 69 from Sudbury south to Parry Sound is a treacherous road with a trail of death and destruction; and

"Whereas the carnage on Highway 69 has been staggering; and

"Whereas the Harris-Eves government has shown gross irresponsibility in not four-laning the stretch of Highway 69 between Sudbury and Parry Sound; and

"Whereas immediate action is needed to prevent more needless loss of life; and

"Whereas in the last three years 46 people have been killed on that stretch of highway between Sudbury and Parry Sound; and

"Whereas in the last year alone, 10 people have tragically lost their lives on that stretch of highway between Sudbury and Parry Sound; and

"Whereas it is the responsibility of a government to provide safe roads for its citizens, and the Eves government has failed to do so;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to urge the Eves government to begin construction immediately

and four-lane Highway 69 south between Sudbury and Parry Sound so that the carnage on Death Road North will cease."

I of course affix my signature. I give it to Matthew our new page to bring to the table.

PROVINCE OF ONTARIO

SAVINGS OFFICE

Ms Shelley Martel (Nickel Belt): I have a petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. It reads as follows:

"Whereas the Province of Ontario Savings Office was created in 1922 by United Farmers and labour as a unique banking facility that allowed Ontarians to invest

in their province;

"Whereas the Province of Ontario Savings Office enjoys a strong popularity among Ontario residents, with over 100,000 accounts and over $2.8 billion on

deposit; and

"Whereas the Province of Ontario Savings Office offers customers attractive interest rates, generous chequing privileges and personalized efficient service,

and every dollar deposited is guaranteed by the province of Ontario; and

"Whereas POSO has 23 branches serving 17 communities across Ontario, including Hamilton, Windsor, Ottawa and small communities in northern Ontario not served

by other banks or trust companies. Places like Pickle Lake, Armstrong, Killarney, Gogama and Virginiatown; and

"Whereas the Tory government announced in its latest budget that it will put the Province of Ontario Savings Office on the auction block, even though it is a

consistent revenue generator, and even though this revenue could help Ontario's crumbling infrastructure after years of Tory neglect;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"To save the people's bank, the Province of Ontario Savings Office, so that it can continue its historic role of providing excellent banking services to

families in communities across Ontario; so that people in small towns will not be forced to go farther afield for banking services and forced to go to private, for-profit banks."

I agree with the petitioners and I have affixed my signature to this.

COMPETITIVE ELECTRICITY MARKET

Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell): I have a petition which is the first of a series by concerned citizens. There will be

thousands and thousands of them coming in every day at my office.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Harris-Eves government deregulated electricity on May 1, 2002, in the province of Ontario, without it being in their election platform in either

1995 or 1999, and without the mandate of the people of Ontario; and

"Whereas the price of the commodity of electricity has reached outrageous levels, having risen at times over 100% since May 1, 2002, causing Ontarians great

financial hardship; and

"Whereas Ontario Power Generation (owned by the Ontario government) has applied to the Ontario Energy Board for a 20% reduction in the promised rebate to

Ontarians if the commodity price of electricity rose above 3.8 cents per kilowatt hour; and

"Whereas competition in the electricity market has been scared off by the uncertainty of the Harris-Eves government's attempts to sell off a portion of Hydro

One, leaving electricity commodity prices high; and

"Whereas the Harris-Eves government authorized that exorbitant salaries and bonuses in the amount of $2.2 million per annum be paid to the former president of

Hydro One and in excess of $1.6 million per annum to the vice-president of Ontario Power Generation;

"Therefore

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, demand that the Ernie Eves government take immediate action to ensure that Ontarians have fair prices for

the necessary commodity of electricity in Ontario, and that the Conservative government and its leader Ernie Eves call a general election on the instability of energy markets so that Ontarians may

have a voice on this issue."

I add my signature with pleasure.

WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT

Mr Ernie Parsons (Prince Edward-Hastings): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario with regard to the unreasonable and

inhumane restrictions that the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources is placing on wildlife rehabilitators with respect to the release of orphaned animals, which will eliminate their ability to

help wildlife.

"Whereas wildlife rehabilitators provide an essential public service for many thousands of people seeking help on behalf of orphaned and injured wildlife in

Ontario;

"Whereas the unreasonable release restrictions imposed on wildlife rehabilitators by the OMNR will prevent responsible wildlife rehabilitation, not only

compromising wildlife and frustrating the public but forcing it underground and jeopardizing public safety;

"Whereas this will incur significant new costs for local governments with respect to bylaw and public health and safety interventions while creating an

emotional and volatile climate because the majority of people in Ontario are simply unwilling to see healthy young animals euthanized;

"We, the undersigned, are deeply concerned that the release restrictions imposed by the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources will eliminate the provision of

responsible wildlife services in our community. We petition the government of Ontario to work with wildlife rehabilitators to ensure that progressive, humane and responsible regulations with

respect to release criteria for rehabilitated orphaned wildlife are put in place in Ontario."

I'm pleased to my add my signature to the more than 200 names on this petition.

GARDE D'ENFANTS

M me Shelley Martel (Nickel Belt): J'ai une pétition qui vient des Services de garde de Rayside-Balfour dans ma

circonscription.

« Attendu que 70% des femmes de l'Ontario ayant des enfants de moins de 12 ans sont sur le marché du travail;

« Attendu que, elles et leurs familles ont absolument besoin de services de garde de qualité, sûrs et abordables;

« Attendu que l'étude sur la petite enfance réalisée pour le gouvernement conservateur par le D r Fraser Mustard et

l'honorable Margaret McCain a conclu que les services de garde de qualité favorisent un développement harmonieux des enfants; et

« Attendu que le gouvernement a réduit le financement pour les garderies réglementées plutôt que d'appuyer les familles

ontariennes en investissant dans l'apprentissage et les soins offerts aux jeunes enfants;

« Pour ces motifs nous, soussignés, demandons que le gouvernement de l'Ontario adopte le plan du NPD pour des espaces de garderie à

10 $ par jour, et qu'il commence par réduire la totalité des frais de garde pour les enfants de deux ans à cinq ans actuellement inscrits dans des garderies

réglementées; que le gouvernement alloue des capitaux permanents pour agrandir les garderies existantes et pour en construire de nouvelles; que le gouvernement finance l'équité

salariale pour le personnel, et qu'il crée de nouveaux espaces de garderies à 10 $ par jour dans cette province. »

Je suis d'accord avec cette pétition et j'y appose mon nom.

NATURAL GAS RATES

Mr Pat Hoy (Chatham-Kent Essex): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the Ontario Energy Board has consented to allow Union Gas to retroactively charge $40 per month for a three-month period to recover additional system

operation costs that occurred during the winter of 2000-01 totalling approximately $150 million; and

"Whereas Union Gas will recover accrued costs over the peak heating season, causing undue hardship; ...

"Therefore

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, demand that the Ernie Eves government issue a policy directive under

section 27.1 of the Ontario Energy

Board Act disallowing the retroactive rate hike granted to Union Gas; and we further demand that the Legislature examine the Ontario Energy Board, its processes and its resources, and make changes

that will protect consumers from further retroactive increases."

It is signed by a number of residents from Merlin, and I too have signed this petition.

SERVICES DE SANTÉ POUR ENFANTS /

CHILDREN'S HEALTH SERVICES

M me Claudette Boyer (Ottawa-Vanier): « Attendu que le gouvernement conservateur planifie la fermeture du service de

chirurgie cardiaque à l'Hôpital pour enfants de l'est de l'Ontario;

"Whereas the Conservative government plans to centralize all cardiac services for children in Toronto;

« Attendu que la chirurgie cardiaque ... est un service essentiel pour les enfants de l'est de l'Ontario et pour ... les enfants francophones de

toute la province;

"Whereas the lives of children may be at risk if forced to travel to Toronto for cardiac care;

« Attendu que les enfants et leur famille se verront imposer des dépenses et des soucis inutiles s'ils doivent se rendre à Toronto pour

obtenir des services cardiaques;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Ontario Legislature to demand that the Conservative government halt immediately its decision to close cardiac surgery

services at the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario in Ottawa."

J'y appose ma signature avec fierté.

CELLULAR TOWER

Mr John C. Cleary (Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh): I have a petition to the Parliament of Ontario.

"Whereas we wish to object to the building of a Telus Mobility cellular tower in a tile-drained cornfield less than a kilometre south of Avonmore. There are

many other choices for the location of this tower which would not interfere with existing homes, farmland and livestock. Please consider the relocation of this unit as the decision was made with no

consultation with the community.

"We, the undersigned, petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

"To stop the proposed building of the Telus tower and to promote community consultation" in the near future.

I've also signed the petition.

COMPETITIVE ELECTRICITY MARKET

Mr Dominic Agostino (Hamilton East): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the Harris-Eves government deregulated electricity on May 1, 2002, in the province of Ontario without it being in their election platform in either

1995 or 1999 and without the mandate of the people of Ontario; and

"Whereas the price of the commodity of electricity has reached outrageous levels, having risen at times over 100% since May 1, 2002, causing Ontarians great

financial hardship; and

"Whereas Ontario Power Generation (owned by the Ontario government) has applied to the Ontario Energy Board for a 20% reduction in the promised rebate to

Ontarians if the commodity price of electricity rose above 3.8 cents per kilowatt hour; and

"Whereas competition in the electricity market has been scared off by the uncertainty of the Harris-Eves government's attempts to sell off a portion of Hydro

One, leaving electricity commodity prices high; and

"Whereas the Harris-Eves government authorized exorbitant salaries and bonuses in the amount of $2.2 million per annum to be paid to the former president of

Hydro One, and in excess of $1.6 million per annum to the vice-president of Ontario Power Generation;

"Therefore

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, demand that the Ernie Eves government take immediate action to ensure that Ontarians have fair prices for

the necessary commodity of electricity in Ontario, and that the Conservative government and its leader, Ernie Eves, call a general election on the instability of the energy market so that Ontarians

can have a voice on this issue."

I add my signature to this petition and give it to Adrienne, our new page, to bring it over to you.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

INTERIM SUPPLY

Hon David H. Tsubouchi (Chair of the Management Board of Cabinet, Minister of Culture): I move that the Minister of Finance be authorized to

pay the salaries of the civil servants and other necessary payments pending the voting of supply for the period commencing November 1, 2002 and ending April 30, 2003, such payments to be charged to

the proper appropriation following the voting of supply.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): Debate: I believe whoever moved the motion has to start the debate or else we'll go in rotation. The

Chair recognizes the Chair of Management Board and the Minister of Culture, the member for Markham.

Hon Mr Tsubouchi: I'm very pleased to be here on behalf of my colleague the Minister of Finance to commence this debate. This is a motion

that, if passed, gives the government the authority to continue its many programs that benefit the people of Ontario and to operate the daily business of government. Approval of this motion for

interim supply gives the government permission to send money to municipalities, hospitals and school boards around the province -- these are all our funding partners, of course -- and also to pay

social assistance benefits to those in need. It will also pay the salaries of our Ontario civil service.

The motion for interim supply does not specify a dollar amount, but proposes to grant authority to spend for a specified period of time. As you know, this is

normal business routine during the course of the year. The current interim supply motion last approved by the Legislature covered a six-month period from May 1, 2002, and expires October 31, 2002,

this year. Without spending authority, statutory payments can continue to be made. These payments include interest on the public debt and all payments from special purpose accounts. However, unlike

statutory payments, scheduled and unscheduled payments cannot be made without the passage of an interim supply motion. These include payments to very essential services across the province,

including nursing homes, hospitals, doctors, municipalities, general welfare recipients, children's aid societies and suppliers' accounts.

The motion for interim supply must also be passed to ensure that all of Ontario's civil servants continue to receive

their salaries. Teachers and health care professionals are just some of the members of the broader public service whose salaries are paid for by our government and through the taxes of the working

person in Ontario. Dedicated public servants like teachers and professors prepare our youth for tomorrow, and nurses, doctors and other health care professionals care for the sick and

elderly.

Interim supply gives us the authority to spend, but we must make responsible choices to ensure that we stay on the course of prosperity. We continue to make

important contributions to the health of the province by exercising fiscal restraint in government operations, and this I clearly know as Chair of Management Board. We continue to focus on

efficient and effective delivery of government programs and services. That's why we've pursued a consistent course of tight fiscal discipline, balanced budgets and debt reduction in order to

provide more resources to priority areas. Clearly, in 1999, we indicated to the public of Ontario that unless government spends wisely and we deal with restraint and we deal with measures that will

fuel the economy, we would not have money to spend on very essential areas of the province, such as education, environment and health care. As you know, we continue to invest in health care on a

large scale.

Our government has an agenda of spending on those priorities that respond to the needs of Ontarians and encourage growth, job creation and prosperity. Just

today, you heard the Premier speaking about the prosperity of the province and how important it is, not only to this government and for the people of Ontario but, as you know, the province of

Ontario fuels the economy of the entire country. That's how essential the economy of Ontario is.

Our economy continues to grow. Right now 987,700 new jobs have been created since 1995. That's very close to one million net new jobs in this province. I

recall back in 1994 how, as we were going through the election period and the run-up to the election period, we talked about creating 720,000 net new jobs in the province of Ontario, and people

laughed at us. They said it was impossible to do that. Now, retrospectively I guess, people should be patting us on the back for creating -- not us for creating the jobs. We just created the

environment for these jobs to be created by industry in this province.

Private sector forecasters expect the Ontario economy to grow by 3.6% in 2002 -- once again, faster than any of the G7 nations. In July, Moody's Investor's

Service improved its rating for Ontario, the first upgrade since 1974.

There are, of course, other indicators that reflect the strength of our economy. There are 613,000 fewer people in Ontario who depend on welfare. As we've

always said, this is the key: getting people to work. The unemployment rate is down to 7.3% and consumer confidence is also up 25.7%. That's incredible in today's economy -- 25.7% consumer

confidence in Ontario. As we all know, as we can see the economy building, housing starts are up 116.4%. That's an incredible amount -- fuelling this economy, building homes, creating such

prosperity in the GTA and across Ontario. Real disposable income has increased by 21.2% since we began cutting taxes. Isn't it funny how that mirrors what we've been doing? We cut taxes; disposable

income goes up. I still remember back in 1995 on the election trail with Premier Harris -- not Premier Harris at the time, but running for Premier at the time -- where we visited a computer

company, and before that we visited a family and a retail store. We saw how this whole trickle-down business of people having disposable income to spend fuelled the economy. Lo and behold, as we

look back now, many of the things we were saying during the run-up to that election in 1995 certainly turned out to be quite true.

Since we began cutting taxes, revenue to pay for programs and services has risen by almost $14 billion, an incredible amount. Ontario's economy has grown

almost 28% since 1995, and that's compared to 20% across the rest of Canada. Thanks to our government's prudent fiscal management and sound economic policies, Ontario is back on track and investors

are taking notice.

Since 1995, we have continued to make tough decisions and responsible choices. We've focused on creating conditions to increase growth and achieve the highest

quality of life for the people of Ontario. Speaker, some of these choices have not been easy, as you know. You've been in government. Certainly as Chair of the Management Board, I've seen a number

of choices that we've made. But during the course of making these choices, we decided as a government, in listening to the people of Ontario, what our priorities would be. Our priorities certainly

are spending on health care, which has increased exponentially, spending on education, spending on the environment and, of course, spending on making sure our streets are safe. Public safety is a

very key part of our platform.

We have stuck to our plan. I must say, too, since the Minister of Agriculture is sitting next to me, that it's very important for us as a government to

recognize and see as a priority our support of our agricultural community, the farmers of this community. The farmers of this province deserve to have our support because, as I travel across the

province, and even in my own community, and see development going on, we certainly look for a balance out there. We understand the nature of the role of the farmers, how important their roles are

to this province. Sometimes when I look and I see farmland, I'm so proud and happy to know that we have farmland that produces agricultural products that we in Ontario can enjoy.

Earlier on today, I had the privilege of listening to the Minister of Agriculture answer a question in terms of Foodland Ontario. Like most Ontarians, when we

go to the supermarket and we go through and look through the produce, we see "Foodland Ontario," and we see that the product is created in Ontario. I believe that product is safer and healthier to

eat. As you recall, we've had a number of difficulties with some of the agricultural products -- not from Ontario but imported into Ontario. I believe we have the checks and balances, and certainly

the farmers have the interests of the people of Ontario at heart, and we have one of the finest products in Ontario. I could talk forever on farmers because some of my best friends are farmers who

produce products such as corn, certainly in my neck of the woods. We know how popular that is in the Legislature -- corn is always around here.

But we have stuck to our plan. Economic growth spurred by tax cuts has enabled this government to invest in priority programs and services, once again, as I

said before, such as health care, education, the environment -- and agriculture is very important to us. The passage of the motion for interim supply will permit spending which specifically

benefits two of these priority areas: health care and education. We have made significant investments in health care to meet our commitments of improving and modernizing Ontario's hospitals.

If I could just take a moment right now, because I know the associate minister in charge of long-term health care is here in the House with us right now, we've

made an incredible investment in long-term health care. For the very first time in this province in many, many years, we've invested in 20,000 new beds in the province of Ontario. I might say -- I

almost said "Premier," Speaker -- that this investment is all on our own. The federal government does not spend one penny to support long-term health care beds. I think that's atrocious, quite

frankly. But the people of this province have the comfort of knowing that this government feels it is a very huge priority for us to support our seniors, to make sure that they have a place to go.

Long-term health care is quite a priority for this government.

Getting back to my topic here about hospitals, we have made significant investments in health care to meet our commitments of improving and modernizing

Ontario's hospitals. Between 1999-2000 and 2002-03, the hospital base funding will have increased at an average annual rate of 8.4%. Health care operating spending will be $25.5 billion in 2002-03.

That's an increase of $1.7 billion or 7.3% over the 2001-02 operating spending.

If you recall back in 1995 when we were campaigning throughout the province, we made a commitment to the people of this province to ensure that the spending on

health care would be at least $17.4 billion. Health care spending today is $25.5 billion. That is an incredible commitment to keep to the people of the province of Ontario, that we believe health

care is so important.

Ontarians are benefitting from the investments in health care we have made since coming into office in 1995. Capital projects are a tremendous example of how

we are encouraging investments. The Ontario government is examining potential for public-private partnerships. There are currently two pilot projects to assist the government and hospitals in

understanding how best to apply the partnership models used successfully in other jurisdictions. Both William Osler in Brampton and the Royal Ottawa hospital have issued requests for qualifications

and closed the requests in August. Submissions are now being reviewed and requests for proposals to develop those facilities will be issued in the late fall.

It's important for us to look out, particularly with health care, to make sure that we look at the best ways of delivering health care in this province. I

applaud the Minister of Health for looking at these public-private partnership areas, because we have scarce dollars. Even though we have increased our spending to $25.5 billion, money is scarce.

It is very important for us to have a balance throughout. Right now an incredible amount of our budget goes strictly to health care. Health care is a priority, but I think it is incumbent upon us

to spend our money in the best way possible, and this may be a way of doing it. That's why we are looking at this in the way of pilot projects. To meet our health care spending commitment, the

passage of this motion for interim supply is needed.

We've also made significant commitments to education in Ontario, because the quality of education and lifelong learning are the building blocks of a prosperous

tomorrow. I certainly know that as Minister of Culture. This week particularly is Library Week, and I was actually very pleased that the Minister of Colleges and Universities was able to attend an

event in London to launch Library Week on my behalf.

As I said in the House earlier on this week, libraries are a tremendous institution of democracy. Libraries don't recognize the fact that someone has wealth or

doesn't have wealth. Libraries don't recognize ethnicity, or race, or religion. Libraries provide information free of cost. So you don't have to have money to learn. You don't have to have money to

access the libraries. That's very important. That's why I always call it a great institution of democracy, because learning is the key, I think. Learning and education are the key for anyone to

better themselves in this province. That's what I believe: not only access to books but certainly to education.

We have tremendous teachers in this province as well, I must say. I look among my colleagues on both sides of the House. I think we can all talk about one

teacher who helped us particularly on our way. I look at myself: here I was after the war, a visible minority. If it weren't for teachers who took my interests to heart -- even though I was the

only oriental or Asian in the entire school, who really stuck out, they were able to help me with my interests. Teachers don't discriminate against different ethnic groups; they are their class,

their children. They are there to take care of them. That's why it is so important for us to support education, because once again if you are poor, if you have an education it is a way of opening

doors to the future. Good teachers are a very essential part of that educational process. I can tell you that first hand.

We've been making record investments in education and funding new educational initiatives to ensure that all Ontario students have the resources they need to

reach their full potential. The Premier was speaking about that earlier today. It doesn't matter where you live in this province, whether it's Thunder Bay, Moosonee, Markham or Thornhill, all

children are entitled to the same quality of education and the same access to books, equipment and everything else. That's what our educational program is all about.

Standardized tests at the provincial, national and international levels confirm that our students are improving. The Ontario government remains committed to

ensuring that every willing and qualified Ontario student will have a place in the post-secondary educational system during the double cohort years. That's a commitment we've made. It's a

commitment I heard repeated not only by the Premier but also by the Minister of Colleges and Universities.

The 2002 budget increased our multi-year commitment to colleges and universities by an additional $75 million to support greater-than-anticipated enrolment,

raising it to $368 million by 2003-04.

This government's commitment to fiscal restraint will ensure the delivery of critical priorities like health care and education, not only today but tomorrow as

well.

I hope all members will support the motion for interim supply so that we can continue to deliver on our priorities.

The Acting Speaker: Further debate?

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): I'm pleased to continue the debate on supply, and I'd like to make several points.

I was intrigued by the "spending wisely." I don't mean to take a shot at the minister, but it was he who signed the $10-million tax break for sports teams that

I think most Ontarians think was probably the largest waste of money.

I want to make several points on the finances of the province. I'll start off by saying that the province, in this year's budget, has said they are planning to

sell off about $2 billion worth of assets of the province. That really was one of the major changes in the budget. By the way, we're awaiting word on what that $2 billion of asset sales will

be.

The public should be aware that it was exactly four years ago that the government also announced the huge sale of an asset, and that was Highway 407. The 407

deal was the biggest sale of an asset in Canadian history. It sold for $800 million more than CN Rail, our national rail, and Air Canada combined. The deal closed the day the election was called

and the government used that money at that time to essentially have an election slush fund.

The reason I raise it is because in this budget, once again, four years later, leading up to an election, we have another huge sale of assets. The reason I

raise it is because, firstly, the government hasn't announced what it will be. At one time, they said it was going to be Hydro One. That seems to be somewhat off the table. We still don't know

where the government plans to get that roughly $2 billion in asset sales, but I warn the public to be very wary of this.

The 407 was perhaps the worst deal made by any government in North America ever, and it was Mr Eves who put the deal together. What we found was that the

government essentially completely abandoned the 407 users. The investors, the people who bought that road, in three years saw their investment quadruple. SNC-Lavalin owns a fairly substantial chunk

of the highway and they said the company's stake in Highway 407 corresponds to nearly four times its initial investment of $175 million.

This is the most desired toll road in the world. That's a fact. Nope, there's no toll road that is more sought after by investors than the 407. There's an

Australian company that says the reason they want it is because you can take the tolls up -- they said -- at a whim, without restriction. By the way, I would say to the public that when the 407 was

sold we were told there were some controls on it. The owners say there are absolutely no controls on it. The tolls can go up at a whim.

I raised this issue yesterday in the Legislature and the government, frankly, dismissed it. The Premier dismissed my concerns. It's this: Mr Al Leach is on the

board of SNC-Lavalin and the 407, and I will say that Mr Leach is a well-regarded individual. This is not about Mr Leach. But he's on the board of SNC-Lavalin. They pay him $100,000 a year

retainer. They pay him $25,000 a year as a director. He has 6,000 shares in SNC-Lavalin. He's on the board of the 407 corporation. All that is fine. He's been there since 1999. He used to be a

cabinet minister here, and after he left the government he went on the board. He's been full value for them. The value of SNC-Lavalin's investment went from $175 million when he came on the board

to $700 million today, so he's been great value for them.

But my problem is this: the government has decided to put him on the board of GO Transit, so he is now the vice-chair of GO Transit. In my opinion, he's in a

conflict. Every single time he sits at GO Transit making a decision, it has a direct financial impact on the 407. I would say to the public, every time another 500 cars a day go on the 407 it's $1

million a year in increased revenue for the 407 corporation. I don't think it's appropriate.

Yesterday I raised it with the Minister of Transportation and he said --

Interjection.

The Acting Speaker: Order.

Mr Phillips: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I know Mr Guzzo doesn't like to hear this, but I think it's important that the public does.

The Minister of Transportation said, "Well, you raised all these problems at the committee," when there was the appointment of Mr Leach, "and you lost there

and you're going to lose again. So just go away."

But I say to the public, it is outrageous -- by the way, SNC-Lavalin I believe is part of the consortium redeveloping Union Station, and if you look in GO

Transit's annual report they say, "The refurbishment of Union Station is one of our major projects."

The reason I raise this is that if the government can't see a conflict there between an individual who has an enormous interest in a private sector company

also sitting on GO Transit's board as vice-chair -- if they don't see any problem with that, if that is just completely all right, I think the government's got a problem.

Mr Garry J. Guzzo (Ottawa West-Nepean): Take it to court.

Mr Phillips: Mr Guzzo, when he responds later, may choose to comment on that. But as far as I'm concerned, there's a problem there. As I say,

the reason I spend the time on it is because in this budget you're going to find another roughly $2 billion of asset sales.

I wanted to comment on the question I raised with the Premier today too, which is that it is the government's plan to have corporate taxes in Ontario 25% below

the US. They're going to be 30% in Ontario, 40% in all our competing jurisdictions.

Mr Guzzo: At least.

Mr Phillips: At least 25% lower. Again, Mr Guzzo is very supportive of that. I would just say to the public, here's the challenge with this:

it means that in Ontario we forgo revenue of roughly $5 billion. If I look at our competitors -- and we have to recognize this; we are the most export-oriented jurisdiction in the world and

virtually all of it goes to the US -- our competitors now ar