Is a Province of Newfoundland -. FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF . NEWFOUNDLAND Volume XL Fourth Session Number 64 .. VERBATIMhEI.ORT • . • • (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable P.J. McNicholas Tuesday . . 28 June 1988

. . The House met at 2:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR, SPEAKER: The hon. the Minis ter of Mines SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. OTNN: Mr. Speaker, as hon. members are aware through the media, Cabinet has decided to accept the proposal from the Rambler Joint Venture for further, exploration and development or the Rambler properties near Baie Verte. The' proposal calls for expenditures of $3, 84 million in exploration over the next twelve months , If this first phase of exploration is successful, an additional $5.4 million will be spent in the succeeding months.

The Rambler Joint Venture is a group of three companies; Teck Corporation, Petromet Resources and Newfoundland Exploration, a Newfoundland company owed by Resourcecan Ltd. of St. Johns, The financing oF the initial $3.85 million exploration program will be pro vi d ed by New F o ii n di. an ci Exploration and Petromet Resources while icc 1< Corporation Ad 1.1 finance and manage any subsequent mining development. The decision of which proposal to accept was a difficult one for government since there were several excellent proposals from the seven proposals received by my department.

However, the proposal from the Rambler Joint Venture was judged to be the best overall proposal and most likely to result in new mining development on the Rambler properties, which have been inactive since 1982. Mr. Speaker, you may recall that Cabinet acted in 1987 to have the out-of—production grants and leases in the Rambler area revert to the Crown. Subsequently, my department has . done an evaluation of the resource potential on the properties, called for, proposal.s and evaluated the seven proposals receLved Mr.

Speaker, I am p]eased to state today that the p r o c e s s of reactivation of the Rambler properties is now complete with the decision to accept the proposal of the Rambler Joint Venture. I am confident that the exploration program to be carried out by the Rambler Joint Venture is likely to result in the discovery of new ore reserves and in new m i n i n g a n d mineral processing dcv elopme nt in this important mining region of o u r Province. Mr.

Speaker, I would have informed hon. members on Friday but, as hon. members know, when government approves of this through ' the Cabinet process it has to he signed by the I.ieutenant -Covernor arid the order was not signed Fr iday morning, so I could not inform the hon. House. Thank you, Mr. Speaker SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hearl MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of t h e Opposition. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, the House, of course, L3604 June 28, 1988 Vol XL No. 64 R3604

S has been informed through the media, and everybody in the Province has been informed through the media, of this particular development. It is a welcome development:if it results i.n the reactivation of the Rambler mines, which at one time produced a lot of jobs. Hon. members will recall that that property was vacated and vacant for a long time before a former government took control of the ground and gave it to Rambler, to operate. That is how the mine got started in the first place. Well, the existing Rambler mines have closed it down and hopefully there will be an opportunity to reactivate the mine.

I do have an area of concern, however, with the last part of the ministers statement. I am' not sure that the minister really has grounds for saying this, and it might provoke speculation. He says he is 'confident that the exploration program to be carried out by the Rambler Joint Venture is likely to result in the discovery of new ore reserves and in new mining and mineral processing development.' Everybody hopes that that is what will happen, but I suggest that the minis ter is going too far, in terms of people who invest in these kinds oF business ventures, for him to make that statement.

I also remind the minister that the last time he made such an announ'cement it was respecting the gypsum mine in St. George's and that did not function above six months, I believe, after the opening. But, in any event, Mr. Speaker, we Mope that this thing work 5!, Oral Questions MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a questlon for, the Premier, but in his absence I will ask the Deputy Premier (Dr.

Collins) The question concerns the splurge on ads that we have seen in print and on the electronic media over t lie we e k en d con c e r ii ii g the Newfoundland Railway. My question to the Deputy Premier, is this : How much is this advertising, or what I would choose to call propaganda efforts, costing the Newfoundland I:axpayers? In other words, how much is the government spending in this propaganda effort to convince the Newfoundland people that the sell—out of the railway for , political purposes was a good deal? MR. DAWE: low silly, coming From someone seeking information. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, that sounds to rue a rather slanted question, but I will take it as a straight question. The government has a responsibility, of course, to get the word out. Now, we try to do it through this House as much as we can, but strictly speaking we are in the hands of the media there. We act when we feel that there is not e n o u g h information going out, and especally when it i s e r ron e o u s i n for rn a t i 0 ii go i n g S L3605 June 28, 1988 Vol XI. No. 64 R3605

t. L . out, as there has been from the other side, completely erroneous information. For instance, I heard the Leader of the Opposition on Sunday saying that the package for the workers was exactly the same as was in - or words to this effect - the collective bargaining. Now, that is not correct. There is an add—on 1:o it, but there was no indication in the hon. Leader of the Opposition's remarks that there was an add--on. So we have to try to get this information out.

It is ahsolute].y necessary because otherwise the population is not informed as to reality and the facts, but is j u s t dealing in slanted remarks , such as the hon. member's question. MR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR, SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: It should be noted that the hon. gentleman did not answer the question. I say to him that what he tried to do in this House was avoid the issue, and it was only at the instigation of the Opposition that we had any discussion at all.

Let me ask the DepuLy Premier: Would the Deputy Premier tell this House if the sell—out, w h a t I choose to call a cheap bargain, for Canadian National in this case, was such a good deal, why did he have to enter into this propaganda blitz? He says it was a good deal . Why dd he have to enter into this propaganda blitz while hospital beds in this Province are closing, while school c hi 1 d re-n are ci 0:1 n g lAd, tu t instructional materials, and while people in this Province are forced to live in communities with sewer in the ditches?

Would the hon. gentleman tell us why he felt it necessary to sell this program, in the way that he is trying to sell it, if indeed it is such a good deal as he claims and as the Premier claims? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. PR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, does the hon, member not like good news, or , d o e s he only deal in bad news and gloomy news and i-iegati. U e news? The people of i:his Province want to know the facts, and we- are giving them the Facts .

If the hon. member opposite just wants gloom and doom and - to I:ry to u n d e r in ins con-F ide n c e in o u r economy in t h i s Province., well, that is h i s problem. I suppose that - is w h y they n e v e r, g e t elected. They have not been elected in about sixteen years, is it? - MR. SIMMS: At least. DR.

COLLINS: I suppose that is why they never get elecl:ed, because they are too gloomy and doomy. - We want to get the information, as it is, out to the people, and the people are happy to receive it and they triak e their' p].ans c'n thai: basis, ma ke t h e i r - plans with c 0 -if .....1 en cc in the economy of t h i s Province - MR. SIMMONS: low much? How much? DR. COLLINS: I do not know the cost but we will No. 64 R3606 L3606 June 28, 1988 Vol XL

S get the figures. MR. TUrK: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon the member for Fogo. MB TULK: Mr. Speaker, the hop gentleman has s till not answered the questions : What was the cost? If it was s u c h a good program, why does he need an advertising campaign?

I ask the hon. gentleman will he not now stand in his place and confess, if you want to, to this House that indeed the sellout of this railway was such a bad deal, and is being received in such a bad fashion by the Newfoundland people, that indeed government now feels it necessary to spend the taxpayers money - the same people that they just gypped by selling the railway - to try and convince them, for a few votes, that indeed this was a good deal? W1.1.1. he not now s t a n d up and admit that is the case? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Heall:h DR, COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, we did not give away anything.

We do not even own the railway, we have not owned t h e railway for I do not know how long, but certainly since 1949. To turn the question around: Why is the hon. member protesting so much that we want to give the people of this Province information about the railway alternative? The main point we are trying to get across is that our transportation system needed an alternative. The railway was an outmoded alternative, so for us to advance and not to he held up, because transportation is an extremely important part of any economy, we needed an alternative type of transportation, and that is what we got. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for, Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir, MR. GILBERT Mr. Speaker, iny question was likewise for the Premier but he is not here so I guess in his absence I will ask the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Dawe), who should he aware. I have here a discussion paper, on Major Bilateral Issues published in September, 1984. In it the Premier claimed that the highway situation in Newfoundland was the worst in Canada and required a special program of reconstruction and upgrading .

Now in view of this, how can the minister justify signing a deal. wi. th the federal government to immediately close the Newfoundland Railway, which is going to increase the freight load, some of it consisting of dangerous and explosive materials, by at least 20 percent on this substandard highway? So how can he jus Lily signing an agreement to immediately close the railway and put:. 7i. freight on this substandard highway? MR. SPEAKER The hon. the M i n i s t e r of Intergovernmental Affairs. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker - MR._SIMMS: Wrong minister. DR. COLLINS: S S L3607 June 28, 1988 Vol XL No. 64 R3607

. . Oh, sorry! MR. DANE: Mr. Speaker, people on this side are so anxious to get up and answer questions! Obviously, Mr. Speaker, that kind of question again identifies what my colleague, the Minister , of Health, just referred to as a kind of misinformation that members opposite are trying to put forward. First of all, everybody knows that we have been arguing for , quite a number of years for improved infras tru c ture in our transportation system. In addi.

Lion to the money that wfL 1 be spent over! he next fifteen year , period on highway construct:ion as a result of a very good transportation initiative that we just participated in, in addition to that the Province on an annual basis will be putting in in excess of $40 million, and T am sure that that may indeed increase, but if it remained at $40 million annually, the total amount of money to be spent on the highway system over that period of time will amount to just about $1.5 billion, which far exceeds, Mr.

Speaker, the amount of funding identified as necessary by TRIP Ca n ad a a n d 0th C r :1. id C p C nd en t a g e n c i e s that had an opportunity to look at the highway system, the surface infrastructure in the Province. As i. h relates to the railway, Mr. Speaker, and the so—called added pressure its closure places on the highway system, the fact of the matter is, as in other parts of the country, the rail system has been carrying less and less traffic.

The hon. member should go to an independent agency, like the Atlantic Canada Transportation Commission, a body funded partially by the Maritime Provinces and Newfoundland, which looks at transportation and the best way to move goods, which does programs of assistance to the business sector in trying to move goods and so on, and get. its i. n t er pr eta t ion and anal y s i s cf this particular initiative. My colleague, the Minister of Trans portation (Mr.

Doyle) , said to me t h e other day, a n d agai.n this -is subj ccl: to ver'ifacation, that in excess of 4400 miles of track are removed in the US on a yearly basis. Mr. Speaker, worldwide the removal of the railway s y s t e m is identified as one of the niegairerids particularly in transportation. Railways are taking less and less commercial traffic. In Newfoundland we are down to 19 per, cent. / The hon. member asked about the distribution of that traffic on the highway.

The amount of freight now being carried on the railway is such that if you went the whole length of the TCH it would . increase traffic the equivalent of fourteen tractor—trailers a day. Mr. Speaker, that was a valid question. Mr. Speaker. the hon. mrnber asked t h r e e questions, one dealing with the necessity to improve transportation, one dealing with added traffic on the highway as a result of this initiative - I answered those two and the third one relates to the transportation of clangero'.is goods Mr.

Speaker, The amount of dangerous goods travelling on the highway because of the railway closure will be very minimal indeed . A lot of money has been spent with ERCO, for instance, L3608 June 28, 1988 vol xt No. 64 R3608

which moves certain dangerous commodities, to convert their operation to a different system that makes it safer not only to operate on the roads but also as it relates to the s h i p p i n g of various goods. The other items have always travelled, on o u r, roads, Mr. Speaker, • and the improved highways, I:he widening of the highways, the four--laning in I rip or La ii t area s where L r oF Fl, c warrants it, all those things, Mr. Speaker, together combine to make a more efficient and a much safer Lr'asportati.on network ' for ' t h e Province . Needless to say, Mr.

Speaker, I, like other members on this side, am very pleased that we have taken this particular initiativ€., SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GILBERT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR, SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member, for Burgeo - Bay d' Espoir. MR. GILBERT: The rninister did not do mitch to address putting extra €raffic on a subs tandard hig hway tn thai: same report the Premier stated t h a t all forms of trans port a 'I: i o n s Ii 01,1 1 ...1 he addressed, air, water, road and rail, whale priorities For s p e n d i n g should ' he defined.

A trade-off approach would not be in the best interest of the Province. Now, would the minister not agree that signing a deal to close the railway fifteen years before the highway is completed is a trade—off? Is that not the type of trade—off that the Premier said he would not he a party to in 1984? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of tnLergouernmental. Affairs. MR. DANE: Mr. Speaker, if I might have an o ppo r 1w nil: y to an s (Ale r tie question, 'trade—off' is a word thai: has. been u s e d From time to time in this whole context, hut, Mr.

Speaker, ii.: is certa:inly not valid in the s e n s e t h a t We have looked at the raslway , water s hipments, air s hiprnents a n d surface transportation, t he movement of goods and people in this Province in i t s totality, When I became Minister Cr Transportation in 1981 there was a package presented to the Province by t h e federal. government, t h e Liberal administration in Ottawa, that was telling the Province what it was going to do with regard to transportation in this Province over a five-year period. The irnmed'iate thing they were going to do, Mr.

Speaker, in that proposal was to eliminate the railway without any kind of accommodation for the total transportation picture. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Not tri.ie! MR. DANE: That is very true, Mr. Speaker. It was because of negotiations that went on at that time that we were able to get the then Ministry of Transport and t h e federal government to become involved in the containerization process, looking at new methods by which goods were being moved, not only nationally but internationally, in containers a n d so on. The only opportunity, as could be seen from . L3609 June 28, 1988 Vol XI.. No. 64 R3609

4 r any analysis that was done on transporta don, for the railway to be able to capture or retain any of its market share was to gel: into methods by which goods were being moved, and that was the Containerization Program, We went through that process and we went through an evaluation, both from the former federal Liberal ad m i riis t ration and the present adminis tration in Ottawa, and looked at the total picture. This, Mr. Speaker, is an opportunity to develop transportation in this Province in its totality, and much has been done.

We have more major airports with regards to size and the number , of employees, in Newfoiindlanci than all the rest of Atlariti c Canada put together. Our geographic distribution recognizes the particular need for those kinds of activities in Newfoundland that are not necessary i ri other parts . On the Coast of Labrador we are into airstrip programs, all over Newfoundland we are into Med-evac airstrips, so it is recognized that we have special needs. We have an advantage as well, Mr. Speaker, in the transportation of goods and services by the use of boats.

Direct water shipment has been, is, and will continue to be the most economical method of moving goods within any part of the world, and particularly in Canada. We have the distinct advantage of being able to access a very economical mode of trans portation that is becoming more efficient, Mr. Speaker, because of the very changes in the way goods are moved in containerization than anywhere else. We have that advantage over Saskatchewan. We have that advantage over Manitoba. We have that advantage over Alberta. We have an advantage and - MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, that is a speech he is giving. MR. DAWE Mr.

Speaker, if I night? The member asked about the total transportation picture in Newfoundland. He referred to an 1984 report that asked a question about the total transport at i. on needs of this Province, and he identified air, he identified water, he identified rail, and he identified roads. All I am doing, Mr. Speaker, is answerincj the question that the hon. membe.r asked. IF he had shortened up his question, or at least the inference has been shortened up, I might have been able to shorten up the answer. Now, where cm 1? I have been through the railroad DR. COLLINS: Give some details. rgkp,. Tfp Mr.

Speaker, this particular initiative, in addition to ports improvement, in addition to the improvement in airstrips, in the multi-service buildings in Stephenville, in the improvements to the terminal in Deer lake, the iiriprovements that have occurred in St. John's, the improvements that have occurred ......2ander , a n d t h e improvements that occurred all over Newfoundland with regard to air transportation, so we are addressing that. The federal government is addressing that in a substantive way. They are addressing the ports development. MR. SPEAKER: No. 61 R3610 1-3610 June 28, 1988 Uol XL

Order, please! I ask the hon, minister if he would sum up his remarks. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. I:flh1flI MR. DAWE: I will, Mr. Speaker. In

summary, Mr. Speaker, I would just. like to point oLt that in air, in the marine area, and in the surface node or tr& us portation , which would incorpora he the remaining rail' services in other parts of Canada, we w-fl ....have, wi thin the next ten to fifteen years, the best transportation system the peopl.e of Newfoundland could ever hope Co r. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GILBERT: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d' Espoir. MR. GILBERT: He did not do much to talk aboi.,t the trade--off of the railway for a highway, Mr.

Speaker, Anyway, in the same discussion paper of September, 1984 - I. think it was inspi,red by Goebbols . the Premier said that the Province did not have the resources to mainta:i.n the second largest Trans—Canada Highway in Canada. The largest is Ontario. Now, how does the minis ter propose to maintain this system now that he has signed away all rights to a maintenance agreement with the federal governnent? How does he propoe to maintain it? Mr.

Speaker, a very interesting question and obviously one that shows again the lack of knowledge about how this program works, will work, and how other programs have worked in the past. Mr. Speaker, there are two kinds oF maintenance 'that we a r e involved in.

The first is regular na i.nte nanice, Cl.............. g up 'the shoulders of the road, grading gravel roads, and doing snow clearing and putting We control and s a n d control, and so on, on the roads, that kind of maintenance where you have work crews that go around and do the various maintenance activities on the highroad systems around the Province We have identified that that is a very costly bill to government. It is a very current, ongoing, expensive operation. What makes it expensive, Mr. Speaker, is a n u m b e r of things that have been identified as being wrong with our surface transportation.

What makes it expensive is that at a particular point in time, when some coi.i.eagues opposi. he were in power, roads were built that lacked proper roaciheds , lacked proper alignment, roads that lacked proper grades, pius this Province has some 3500 kilometers of dirt road, which unake.s ongoing maintenance very expensive. This particular program identifies all that, and is one of the prime reasons why the Province negotiated this kind of ' an arrangement whereby these sorts of things, that are negative from a maintenance perspective, would be S 1,3611 June 28, 1988 Vol XL No. 64 R3611

r . addressed, in thak roads wouil: he improved, aug nments would he changed, paving would be done, and varjous activities would he carried out to iniprove the roadheds and lessen the ongoing yearly maintenance act ivi. Ly associated with the roads. So that is what will happen. As I and other members on this side have said to members opposite before, as my colleague, the Mi n 1. ste r of r r a r s port at :1 a ri has said, as you improve the roads through capital cons truction and capital reconstruction, you also lessen the amount of maintenance that has to go on on a yearly basis.

The second kind of maintenance s Mr. Speaker, is the kind of capital recons Eric tion that we are invoj ved in - and it can be termed as capital maintenance, if you will - taking roads that are inferior and iAionktng with thai: road. The road is there so it is not building a new road, ii: is improving the road that is there, and in that sense it is a capital maintenance program. This whole agreement that we have entered into, and other programs that we are doing ourselves, are inte.nth*d to carry on, with the roads that we already have.., this capital maintenance.

In addition to this particular program, as has been indicated and has been written into the agreement., we will continue with the capital maintenance program t hr o u g h var iou s E RD A a g r e errie nit s that we may be involved in from time to time.., and certainly at the end of a four year period we have been assured, and as indicated in the agreement and others, that we wil.]. contirii.ie An. th add itiona], ERDA agreenients that IAdl address some .3612 June 28, 1988 Vol. XI.. OF the capital maintenance problems that would be associated with road cons triic tion in the Province on into the future SOME HON.

MEMBERS: lear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon, the meiriber for Stephenville. MR. K. AVLNARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Premier, but since he is not here I direct it to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Labour Adjustment Program: Would the minister tell 'is if the $70 million which is included in the agreement is new money or is it money that was in the collective agreements i;hal.i Aier'e alrnady negc'tiiie d MR. SPFAKER: T h e hon. t h e Minis her of Intergovernmental Affairs MR. DANE: Mr.

Speaker, in the package that was distributed it was identified that there is infa ct a collective agreement in place which addresses some of the issues that have been ongoing and foreseen by both the. employees of the railway and CN as they negotiated on a national basis certain agreements What we h a v e also said, Mr. Speaker, and is also in the agreement, is that there are o b vi o u s 1 y u n i q u e ci r c ii m s tan c e s associated with this particular procedure in this Province.

In Fact, the railway will no longer be in the Province, and so there are special mechanisms that have to be put in place over and above No. 6 ,1 R3612

S the usual things. There are, I think, eleven or twelve -individual unions associated with the railway and with this particular package. Some of them have negotiated agreements at different times that have different requirements in them. Mr. Speaker, both the federal, and provincial governments are going to monitor this agreement very closely to make sure that t here is equity in LIie program, ecitii ly for part- time workers, equity for workers who wish to be I:r'ainecI or wish to find other employment with CN Marine. This package goes well beyond the $70 million that has been identified in the agreement. MR.

K. AYLWARD; Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hen. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AVLWARD: With reference to the Labour Adjustment Program, could the minister tell us if the $70 million included in the agreement is new money or is it already monies that were negotiated in the collective agreement? til.so, if it is not new money - if it is in negotiated c ol. i.e c Live ag reerne nt. s already in existence, then it s hould not be in 1:0 make the agreement add up to $800 million what is the adcli.1..ional. ainoun I: or money in there for employees in the I_aboi.ir Adjustment Program? MR.

DAWE: Mr, Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the . Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs ti?_DAWE: Mr. Speaker, first of all there has been a number of labour agreements involved in . this process for a long period time. Railway employees have been greatly reduced since CN took over the Newfoundland Railway in 1949. The largest chunk of railway employees were eliminated when the hon. I.eader of the Opposition (Mr. Wells) was involved in government on this

part icijiar side of the House. There were special agreements in place, Mr. Speaker, the last time there was a sign:,ficarit number oF layofFs over' and above collective agreerriemiLs bri L these spa cic:il. ag reeiiie oF. s expired last March! We have identified forty people who came oi.rtside of that special agreement who are now part of what eve r the non n a 1. collective bargaining process is. But as Mr. Crosbie, the Premier, Mr.

Lawless and others have indicated, these people who have been laid off between the special agreement and negotiating this particular labour adjustment package will he taken care of as if they were still working with the process. I do not know what the thing is about new money. . Certainly nobody anticipated that all of a sudden the railway would be gone, because collective agreements are not negotiated that: uJay. . V i. I: had transpired, it would have trans p i. r a ci o v er a s i g n i F i. c a n t period of time.

The people who talked to me and to others have identified that, if that were to happen, they would not be happy with just dealing with collective agreements b e c a u s e. they vary so much. Members of the trainmen and people . in operating trades, the ones who deal with the movement of the enginjs and so on, their , particular agreement was certainly L . L3613 June 28, 1988 vol XL No. 64- R3613

S 11 L . not as substantive as other union agr'eemenl:s We have been as sured that will all be taken into cons id e r a 1: i. On So the quick answer, iF you All].1, or the s:Lrnple answer is that certainly part OF the morley that has been identified if t h e member is suggesting t h a t something is hidden, there is riotft.ng hidden in this process as new money in the sense that last week there. was a railway, there were employees working, but this particular week we are in the process of phasing it down, to that is new money that is coming out, but it is certainly part of the collective agreement.

There will he substantive increases. As to whether I can tell him how much, every employee with the railway will certainl.y be dealing on his own individual basis, with his own individual needs and requirements, and will address what is ava:Llabl.e to him both from his collective agreement and what Al .1.1. be available to him in cx tra packages and benefits bedause the railway is closing clown.

It All1l be something that will be dealt with certainly on an individual basis and a collective basis with the eiiiployees and with the union, closely monitored by the Province and the federal gover'nment , And to try and mdi cate what that may be or , what the total will be at the end is obviously impossible for me or anyone else to try and determine. But certainly, Mr. Speaker, when this process has ended that information will be readily available. MR. K. AVLWARLJ: A supplementary. MR: SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. K.

AVLWARD: Since the $70 million is not new money, would the minister tell us w h y he signed an agreement that totals $800.6 million which includes in that a m o u n t $75 million for labour adjustment which has already been negotiated over the years by the employees with the employer? MR.DANE: Mr, Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minis tsr , of Intergovernmental Affairs, RSILI!i!I! Mr. Speaker, I do not know what kind of mathemati cal game the hon. member is trying to play.

But certainly the amount of $70 million that has been indentified is money that CN is going to have to Find now as a result of the railway no longer being in operation in Newfouindl arid. Ncuj, they never had that earmarked to deal, with, last week or , the lAJCe!< before or last year, so in that sense obviously thai: is new money. That is $75 million, and it was broken out.

The $5 million in that particular thing deals with surveys, making sure you define and redefine the ownership of t he u an' iou s r a i I. (Al a y right—of-.ways and to on, to take on the other process that was indent'ified in the packagE., of making sure that the land that is surplus to CN's needs, or a federal agency s as it relates to terminals in various parts of the Province, and the various assets of the railway returning to the Province are done in a legal and defined fashion. So in that sense, Mr. Speaker, he is wrong on hqth counts MR. FENWICK: 1-361.4 June 28, 1988 Uol XI No. 64 R3614

L.4 Mr. Speaker, MR, SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek MR. FENNICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker My question is to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. It concerns to reply I got from the Minister of Transport (Mr.. Doyle) last AlOe k when I asked him what the s tuation would be with regard to Port aux Fasques , and whether or not any si:i.tcli.es had been clone about the effect of closure? Tb 1 s week e id we S am s even ty containers come .....

I:y boal.: to Si.:, Joins from Halifax, traffic that normally would go throng h to Port aux Uasques, and that was the kind of c harige in mode that we are worried about.

My question to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs is this : Since the Minister of Transport has identified your department as the one which did the s tudies on the future of Port aux Sasques and on the impact t h a t this particular change wOuld have on it, could the minister give us some indication of what the future is going to be for Port aux E3asques under this major change, the dropping of the railway, and the change in traffic peat t e r n s? MR. DANE: Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Mi rn ster of T.nl:ergoverninental AfFairs Mr.

Speaker, if I might take a minute to break out my crystal hail again and talk about what the future oF Port: aux Ftasq'.ies is, the future... of Port aux Basques, Mr. Speaker, is very bright indeed, most s.ignificanti.y based on the fact that it was established as a transportation community and will continue as a very important trans portation coinrnu ni ty . In excess of $10 million is being spent, and the proj ect will he shortly finished, to improve the cii trance o n t o the Trans--Canada Highway through Port aux Basques. There . have been mu .....ions of dollars spent on port infr'astructmir'e, Mr. Speaker.

There will be, as a result of this .: g r e ewe n : , ad di. i:io nal. fi.i nil i. rig spent on municipal infrastructure and road networks that havo been so important to Port aux flasques As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, 'F heard the other day that per'haps the volume of people traffic, of individuals visiting this Province and the bookings they have with CN will put a tremendous strain on facilities. As a matter of fact, it has CN Marine excited about the sheer volume of increase in traffic that mAull be corning through Port aux Basques.

Port aux Basques and the surrounding area have an opportunity to develop a significant tour'asm industry. It continues to be the established link between North Sydney and Newfoundland, so it will continue to play an important: role in transportation. It was identified 1:hai: certain freight traffic would moved Mr. Speaker, as we have already i:a].kecl about: todij that: certain freight traffic that beFore used the Pori: c1LlX F3asques route will be coming into other arteries in the Province, into St. Johns, into Argentia, and that is why, Mr. Speaker, we are iniprovi ng the access to Argentia.

Something which the lion. Leader of the Opposition negotiated away and . L3615 June 28, 1988 vol XL No. 64 R3615

S made Argentia part of the primary highroad system. C do not know if members are aware of this, but when we talk about: the primary highroad system in this Province and we Lal.k ahoci 1: the Trans Canada Hi ghwe4y, part of that agreement to eli.ini.na I:c the rail network to Argeritia was to inderitify the Argenttia ron Le as part: of the primary highway, the main artery system i. nthis Province, and that has been established since the hon.

I_eader opposi. te was par I: of an adnirlistratiori So the distribution of goods as it relates to freight will he shifting around and will minimize the impact, obviously, an the road system, on the main artery system, and will also improve the efficiency on the streams . But as it relates to Port aux Basques, there are a number of very significant things, and it is unfortunate that in this Question Period lily colleague, the rrceniber for [ aPoile (Mr. Mitchell), does not gel: an opportiJn:ity 1:0 enumerate them. MR. LONG: He i. 5 in hiding MR. DANE The member for St..

John' s East (Mr. 1_ony ) sa'js tha tthe irierniDer for taPoile. is hiding. Nell, I got news for the member For St. Johns Fast because the member for l.a Poile hides from no thi. ng or nobody. very sign i fi cant t hi rigs ha ye occurred that wtil....diversiFy the economy in Port aux Basques SOME HON. MEMBERS: hear, hear! - MR.

DANE And to continue with the dj.versi.fi.catton OF the economy in Port aux Basques , it was identified l:ha't: $7 million, and potentially another $500,000 depending on what happens [n LIie process, is earmarked to help Port aux Basques , the community of Pccrt: aux Basque.s , the business cormunun'ity of Port aux Basques , the economic development arm of Port aux Basclues , to assis I: thr:m in developing and diversifying the economy in Port aux Basques to not only take advantage of the increase in peopl,e traffic, the improvements that are oc curri.ng because of this stream of individuals who are just begging to conic to Newfoundland and spend their money, not only in Port aux Basques, but in ot,her conimun:i.1:ies rig lit t Ii r o u g ho u t the P r o vi n c e, there are a number of things being done to allow them to take advantage of that particular initiative and there are things be 113 clone and th':i.ngs avai.i.abl.e to them to allow them to L a k e advantage of a nm,icribcr init:iati.ves that Ad 11 help diversiFy the economy, broadcn the economic base, so that Port aux Basques Ad.11, not be subject to the same kinds of fluctuations that a single industry town is subject to.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DANE The member for LaPoile has represented his district very well and will continue to do! so, as a result of the represen tat.aons From the member for LaPoile a number of L3616 June 28, 1988 Vol XI., SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The tUne f o r Oral Quest. ions has elapsed. No. 61 R3616

. MR. TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Foga. MR. TULK: I did not do this during Question Period because, to be quite frank with you, I thought enough t:ime was being taken up by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and members would not get their q u e s t i o n s in. But I do want to draw to Your Honour's aI:tentiori it required was a simple yes or no; either' the Premier would engage in the tradeoff or he would not. Let me bring another example to Your Honour's attention.

The member , for Stephenville asked, Is t h e. $70 million included in the present agreement new money or , is it money that was already contained in the coil. cc Live agreement? I think it took someth.ng like two and a halF minutes for the hon. gentleman to say yes or , no to that, one MR. DANE: Inaudible) one question at a time MR. TIJLK: Tf the coridu ctor of the trains would he qui.e I: Mr.

Speaker Subsection (2) of paragraph 358 of Reauchesne says, Answer's to qies t,on should be as brief as possible, should deal wiLh the matter raised, and should not provoke debate," Now I have to say to Your Honour that at one point I was tempted to ask one of our members to stand up and ask if they would adjourn the debate. We expect Your , Honour , to rule if members on this side have their questions too Tong or , if they are not of the type that should be asked in Oral. Question Period, but let me give you an example of what tAlent on in this House today dur''ing Question Period.

The member for Rurgeo •' 8.:'iy ci' Espoir as ked the Mi nister ' of Intergovernmental Affairs a v e r y simple question whi ch was this : Is that not the 'type reFerring lio the railway' of tradeoff t he Premier woul ci not 'engage in some Four or' Five years ago? It took approximately four and a hall rn'i.nul:es For' the Mini ster of Intergovernmental. Affair's to answer thai',, when all. The next question by the member for , Stephemivi.l.l.e was: I'low much new money? They laugh o v e r, there, They Lh.nk it i.s funny It t o o k him somewhere a r o u n d two a n d a half minutes l:o answer' that question.

I suppose .the figures are so large he could not get it out. The third question, the s e c o n d suppleiiienb:ir'y by t h e hon. meiniber for Stephenville : Why is the $70 mill. Lan included J.n the $800 million? Is it included in the $800 million? Why is it there if it is not new dollars? Mr.

Speaker, the Deputy Premier, when I asked him a question at the beginning of Question Period, answered very well I think, but the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs stood up, looked at Your Honour in the Chair, looked across si: this side of the Hots'?, and smiled and said, I will go on in this Legislature as long as I want. To me, that is a disrespect for' the Chair. MR. DAWE: I am just a happy felloi,ü. MR. TULK: Oh, you are a happy Fellow? Yes, . 13617 june 28, 1988 Vol XL No. 64 R3617

. . [] I know how happy YOU are. A n d t h e Government House Leader on the other side sits down and h a s a great smile. Now, Your Honour, either this thing stops or , this place is likely to come apart, ihaL is rio!: a threat to the Chair', but it is likely to come apart. This is not Parl.iawon L, the way this is o p e r a t i rig, and I want to make tFii. point of order so '(our' Honour will take rioti ce of it, and also 110 pi.li: the Opjaosii:.on on record as bei rig opposed to t h e type of thing thai: is going on her'e SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR.

SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon the President of the Council. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I am riot aware that there is a rule thai: prevents one from smiling in the legislature. That is hardly a worthwhile bit of ammuni tion to u s e in presentang what is supposecll.y a ser'i.ouis poini: of order, according to the niernher For' Fogo . I am n also not: aware that. muJ nil S ten's cannot answer' quesl.:i.ons as they Sr fit. Thai: is the purpose of Question Per'iod Mr.

Speaker, obviously if members opposite are not satis Fled or happy with the response they get, then they have the right to give notice that they wish to debate it further on the Late Show. Your Honour is the individual charged with the responsibility of determining when an answer and when a question is too lengthy or out of order or , whatever. From lily owr perspective here, sitting back and listening to the answers given by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, I thought the answers w e r e very thorough answers, very good answer's Perhaps the problem is , Mr.

Speaker, members opposite do not wani: to hear' I:lie answers , 1. suspect that is the real problem. I:i.ther' :hat, Mr' Speaker', or it. is getting too hotf or them outs:ide and inside MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am prepared to rule on the point of order. Ther'e is no point of order. On quite a number of occasions I hae asked the co—operation of all members in having short questions, and in suppl.emnentar'ies not to elaborate. I have also asked hon. m.nisters i:o k e e p their answers short.

If hon. ministers feel they cannot answer' a qmies tion satisfactorily, except with a long answer, I would ask theirm to give a written reply to that particular que S Iiio ni As we know, ihe whol.e purpose of Ques tionm Period is mainly for the Oppcis:i.Li.ori to ask tIi b government: questions arid to seek information. So the more questions we have the better, as far as the purpose of Question Period is concerned. Notices of Motion MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: .3618 June 28, 1988 Vol XL No. 61. R361.8

The hon. the I. eader of the Opposi Lion. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WELLS: I g -i.ve notice, Mr. Speaker, that I will on tomorrow beg leave to intr'oduce the following resolution

WHEREAS various documents, reflecting positions taken by the N ewf 014 ri dl. and a rid Can a di an delegations negotiating the Terms of Union of Newfoundland with Canada, demonstrate clearly that Canada was to be responstbl.e for' the Newfoundland portion of the riai,i.onal.

Lransport&Jon sysliern, whi c h documents i ri ci ude a rnemor'anduin dated 0 Ltauia , July ii 1947 from the Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet to the Secr'etary of State for External Affairs, in which the Federal. ol3li,gal:ioii was uriders tood to he as fol lows '[ri the event, of union think it would be almost inevitable that in the course of i:i.rne the ra ii.way would become part of the Governurient owned system s:irice we now provide a governmental transcontinental Sys Lem cover ing all provinces and could scarcely make an exception in the c a s e of one' And, a further memorandum of July 31 • 1947 - in wh:ich the. federal. obligation respecting transport.at.on was expressed to he as follows "Tt is suggested that assumption of the r'ail.way and steamship services would be justified on the ground that ii: was Illerely the extowiioii of the coast to coast transportation sys I i em to lake care of i - ire needs of the n e w Province." 13619 June 28, 1988 Vol XL AND

WHEREAS Term 31 (

a) of the Terms of union is a direct consequence of these undc!r'stanicings and was intended to reflect the constitutional obligation of the federal g o v e r n m e n t to be responsible for the Newfoundland port ton of the "coast to coast transportation system n to take care of the needs of the new Province" and, in the. words oF I o r , rn 31, ''relieve the Province of Newfoundland of the public c o s t s i. n c Li r r e cl in respect of [such] service", AND

WHEREAS the memorandum of understanding executed by the Government of C a n a d a a n d the Government of Newfoi.indl.and on J u n e 20, 1988 will, if c a r r i e d into eFFect iinalliered, iransfer back to Newfoundland the financial burden or I na lnI'.a ini.ng and operating the Newfound] and porti on of the ''coast to coa'; 1: tr'anspon-Leiliion sysl:emn" of which b u r d e n Canada, by Term 31 (

a) of the Terurs oF Union agreed to relieve NewFoundland AND WIIF:REAS both the Liberal. caucus in Parliament and the Liberal caucus of the. House of Assembly have proposed and have undertaken to ensure that the constitutional obligation of Canada respec ting the Newfoundland portion of the national transportati.c'n sysl:.emn is cc'nt -Lnued after the closure of the railway i. n N ewf o u n :i l.a ni ci;

NOW THEREFORE HE IT RESOLVED that. this House approves of the Liberal caucus proposal to ensure that the consti tutional obligation of Canada res pec tiñg the Newfoundland portion of the national l:ranspor'l'.ati.onsyst cnn be c:onil:int.ued after the closure of the railway in N PiIFOt.i rid]. a rid AND RE IT FURTHER RESOlVED that No. 64 R3619

this House request the Government and Par].iariient of Canada to: cause the Terms of Union to be amended to the extent necessary to affirm I:hat: (without r'el.aevi.rig Newfou ndland from any of its ord mary responsihl l:y For 'i' yhways , i nd ud:i fly the Trans Canada Highway, and ui'i thou t affecti rig funds that woul d otherwise be payable by Canada uniciei' any highways or other tranispor'tat.icn pr'oyr'arns ) t:he C 0 n s t i I u t I o n a 1 0 hI. .i. y a t ± o ri or Canada 1:0 relieve the Province of Newfoundland of the public costs 'incurred in pro'n.cI:i.ng the Neuifou nd land port. ion of the nattonal tr'anspcir'tal:Lon system is a conti nuing one, and Canada has responsib -ility in perpetuity for the additional financial burden placed on Newfoundland to upgrade, operate and maintain the • Trans—Canada Highway to a standard adequate to accommodate the traffic diverted toit by reason of the phasedown and closure of the railway in Newfoundia ; and increase and/or pay, earlier, as may he necessary, the funds provided for in the memorandum of underst, ending dated June 20, 1988 in order to give proper effect to Canada' s consi:'ttu l:'lOnikL oh]. ig.:iI:i.on respeci 'i rug the Newfound] arid pori:J.on 1:) l7 t h e na 1:1.one1. transportation system.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER The hon. the Pre ident of the Council. MR. SIMMS:

WHEREAS the hon. Leader of t h e Opposition continues to he r'epetti:i.oi,isi.n his boring rernar'ks; and

WHEREAS the Leader of the Oppos1:'oni conl:inu.ies to mi,s:Lnfor'm the peop] e of Newfoundland and ..ahr',.'tclor ; and

WHEREAS the Leader of the Opposition continues to make statements which are injür'ici,is to the public good of Newfoundland and labrador; BE IT r?ES0I.vt:

r) that this House insist that the Leader of the Opposition tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. DR.COLLINS: Hear, hear! Excellent! Excellent mo 1:1,01 SOME HON. MEMBERS: leer. hear! MR. WELLS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A po'i.nl: oF order, he hon. t h e I eader of the Opposition SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. SPEAKER: Are there any fur ther Notices of Moti on? MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to give notice of a resolution. MR. WELLS I am pr'cpar'ecl railway issue in the 101 ni. s Ler 'AJan telling the truth MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Speaker, this :0 debai:e the any context, If ts to tal. 1< about and accuse me of is debate. L MR. TULK: No, it is not. 1-3620 June 28. 1988 Uoi XL No. 64 R3620

MR. S]'MMS: I did rioL irLerrilpi: his PJoLice of Motion. Sit down! MR.WELLS: I am not interrupting. This is a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR, WELLS: Mr, Speaker, IF the hon . the House Leader wants to call me a liar, I am prepared to waive the rules of the House and a].low him to do so, provided I have the same privii.ege of identifying the lies the government have hold the people of th:i s Provi rice. SOME ION. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ST.MMS: Mr. Speaker, to that point of orci er MR.

SPEAKER lo that point of order, the hon the Pr'csiden L oF the Coi.incil. MR. SIMMS: I did riot cal] the hon. the Leader of the Opposition a liar, those are his own words. But if the cap fits, let him wear it, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: To that pot nt: of order, Mr Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon the member for , Fog') MR, TULK: Mr. Speaker, what we have seen come o u L OF the hon. yen I :li.man' s mouth, he c a n phrase it how he likes SOME HON. MFMBERS: Oh, oh! AN HON. MEMBER: Is tIjis to the point of order? MR. TULK: Yes, to the point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SIMMS: Is this a new point of order? MR. TULK: the same point of order. The Speaker did not stop me. The hon. yen i:lernan 1'; no I:. the Speaker, I All].]. have him 1< now. Mr. Speaker, the hon, gentleman can pul: L how he likes. The truth of the matter is the resoliil::j.on ho so ha; Lily concocted i.o try and bury tI'ie truth that was jiis : read to him J.n a resolution by the Leader of the Opposition. should be Found La be totally out of order and unparliamentary ..

But IF he wanl.:s to debate the veracat.y of what the gent] eman who sits in t h i s chair' says compared I:o what is said in that chair or , his own or , anybody else's MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. TULK: this side stands ready and willing to go right now. SOME ION. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order. nlease the hon the Pr'es ... len: oF jhp S Ll L3621 June 28, 1988 Vol XI No. 64 . R3621

S r . Council. MR. SIMMS Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the hon, member for logo ts making all the fuss about. I have already 'tndical:ed MR. TULI(: You are a nonsense AN HON. MIEMF3ER: Arid you are a nuisance MR. STMMS: Jam a nonsense and you a r e a nuIsance. I do rio I: know what: is wrong un. I:h the hon. the member for logo. What happened to him over , the weekend? lie intisi: have gone out to logo and found out he is going to be blown out of the water the next election, or something like thaL, Mr.

Speaker, what you have here is nothing but rho tori. c from the member for logo, a bunch of malarkey, a bunch of baloney. . You have the Leader of the Opposition standing up to try to somehow play politics with this railway issue, and thai - is all he has been trying to do. If he went around the Province and talked to the pe.opl.e he would see and he wou].d learn, but he his not enough pa1. it:i.cal. sense to do that, Mr. Speaker. We are going he call the budget debate today. We have mdi cated thai:. They know I I-.. We anii'iouniced'it: last. Thursday or, last: Friday .

IL was no big surprise or anything ] ike that. When we call, the hm.idge t deba Le, members opposi. te can debate whaI:ever they want. They do not need to do it under the guise of a resolution, whi cli he knows full well is placed on the Order Paper for Wednesdays and ends up being number 18, and will neve.r be debated anyway. . ti is nothing hut a charade on the part of the Liberal Opposition and the Leader. All it is is a charade, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please I am not going to rule on the poi.nt of order now.

C would like to have a look at the resolution nfi:oruiarcls , a n d :r will, rule on that matter tomorrow. Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given OR, COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Mtnis ter of Health. DR._COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, a quest ton was asked about the. cost of certain facts giving inFormation that were in the newspapers recently. The cost to government is approximately $55,000 as part of a public aware n CS S pro g r arri , b cc au s e na n y workers in many communities in the i'r'ov'ince lir'e interested in what t lie a 1 tern at iv e transport at i

C) n package is all, about. I might add, Mr. Speaker, that the Fecler'al government and CN i.tse].F have also had a public awareness program oFs'ln'L].ar cost and along the sanie. lines. Orders of the Day MR. SIMMS: Motion 1, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MoLion 1. l'ha t debate was L3622 June 28, 1988 Vol XL No. 64 R3622

S adj ourned by the hon. t h e member for St Barbe, who had riot spoken hu I: acIj omirneci the cleI:)a I;

t) The hon. the member , For' SI.: I3arbe MR. Fli REV: Mr. Speaker, as I (Alas saying a mmmonth ago, or , was about to say a riiorm-Lh ayo AN liON. MEMBER: And wish we would all, remember , MR. FtJREV: It is nice to see the House lighten up for a second over , there.. Mr. Speaker, I propose to talk about the budget from three view points. First of all, about t h e budget i tsölf and the overall economy of the Province, secondly, from the perspective of the distr ct I represent - MR. ST,MMS: (T.naudi.bie) loi'mg winded as they wore I did not I-h ink ii 05 51 bl.E to say sell—out so many ways, Mr.

Speaker', but t saw i today, - in different answers with respect tc I:I'ie railway. 31] I: 1 AL 1. C 011K b a c k to that, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, in terms of the economy in this Province, since the Peckford admini stratton came to power' in 1979, in iny research looking at what has happened, three fas cinia - - -ing sets of Figures come to the surface and they ought to he talked about. The first one deals with - social services and ti-us -is brought to my attention by our critic, the member , For , Port de Grave (Mr.

Efford), who is doing a very good job shadow:ing a n d looking after that portfolio and doing it very admirably and would Iflake indeed a fine Mi nister of Social Services in hi, own r 1. g h I: S MR.FUREY: Mr, Speaker', I have riol: e'en start -ed, arid he has started aT ready MR. SIMMS: 1' I- maudi bi

e) three view point budge I: speec Ii. MR.FURF.V: An overwsew, Mr. Speaker, quickly of the ec4rlomrm Ic ness we f:ind ourselves in today, a quick look at some of the problems in the district that I represent on the Nor'the r n Pen 1. ns ula, St. B-a rhe, and, Mr. Speaker, at the end I propose to talk for , a few ininutes about the railway deal, which occupied part of Question Period 'today . It was interesting and fascinating to msm.:itch the Minis ter of Intergovernmental Affairs give his answers -today, Mr. Speaker', Mr. Speaker, he tel is inc that in 1979 in I:he hi.iclgi.

I: recILI:'ireulien i:s for that year, t h e - year , the Peckford adunu.nisl:ral.:ion caine to power, we saw the requirements From i:hai: clopart:mnenl:, i t s share of Lhe economic pie from the revenues generated tlir':ui,ighou.mt: the Pr'ov mice at that time, was $1. 13 billion, in 1979. So, in other , wor'cls , to r u n t h e Department of Social Services and to help people who are hurting and who could not for reasons b e y o n d their , control help themselves, the requirements to hel,p those people In capital a n d current dollars, Mr.

Speaker, in 1979 was $1.. 13 billion, Now, if 'joim cross the s p a n -to modern day current dollars, 1988 clol,i.iirs, capital and current, from the time that the Pec kford administration Look over', which 1 3623 June 28, 1988 Vol X1 No. 64 R3623

S. was $1.13 billion, $1, 130,000,000, to today's dollars to see what the increase was, it has jumped from $1.13 billion to $2.56 billion, in the nearl.y ten years the Peckford administration has been in power. Mr. Speaker, normally you would cotinne.nd the government: for inc reas i rig its expenditures in various depar tinents across the various sectors; in normal ci.rcuins Lances, you woul..I coinritend that. But what we are real i y seeing her ,e t'.oda'j, ME', speaker, is riot. comriiencJabi o. it is a huge, uhopping inr:reasc or $1. 1/I billion 'I Fiat had to be spent 'Lu he] p people', Mr.

Speaker, , who are beyond their own resources; who, through no raul. I: of their own, have been caught up in the social saFe :y net and r'equ.i.recl government' s assistance. A direct increase in the ten year's of the Peckford adm]nistration, Mr. Speaker, of $1. ii. hil.l.i,on That is shameful, Mr. Speaker, it is not commendable. It is not a good thing. It:is not something that you can be proud of, to say: 'Lock, ' we have increased the budget requirements for this departirierit , should not we be lauded out there in the public.

As ny friend for' Port cle Grave p01 nts out to inc., this increase of $1. 14 I:)il.flon is r\bsolLiteJ.y shameful , but it is a direct reFl.eci:i,on , it mirrors the perforriiarice of the economy i ri the Province today, Mr. Speaker TF there Is no ei:onoflic acti.viI:y, there are no jabs .. if there are no j ohs, Families large and small., are forced to the dour of the welFare oIf'i,ce. They arc Forced to go seek help from the public Lroasury, . They are Forced, Mr.

Speaker, wi tFiouL. dignity, into the social safety net. it: is no good For ,anybody to say that is praiseworthy, and the government ought to be commended. A direct, increase in the Peckford years, those nine and a half years, of $1.11. billion to help people in an economy which refuses to help them find jobs themselves. That is the first star't:ling figure, Mr. Speaker, I want to draw to the House's at: I: e ri 1: i, on The second Figure, Mr. Speaker, was pointed out to us by our , F'trUlnce cri.1:i,:, Mr, sal<er, the member for Gander.

He 'told the House I:ha I: during the nine and a halF years of 'I. he Pec kf'ord ;j('Jni'in5 t:ra t:ion , in 1979, the direct total public sector debt., that: is to say,' all or the rnon:ies accumulated that the government, through its own operations, its own ministries, and reaching out La its Crown corporations and other quasi Crown corporations, all of the bodies that use public money, Mr. Speaker, all of them, If you stack it all up, in 1979, when this government took office aFter the Moores Adrniriis tration the total public sector debt was $2. 56 billion. What happened, Mr.

Speaker, over the nine-and--a--half year's or this aciin,ni,strati.urt being in power? Was the government sensible Arth con'I:rol,'l.i,ncj ciebi: or' did they let: it run completely rampant and out or corit:rol.? Well,, Mr. Speaker, like it or not - the Minister of Mine'; and the Mi,ni,s ter oF Transportation can laugh all they want'., because it is their orgy and splurge they are laughing at. It is t:he'ir p',ir t:y that they are laughing at. F et me tell you, iiihat a par l:y they had, Mr. Speaker! What a party they had L3624 June 28, 1988 Vol XL No. 64 R3624

S They Look our total. public sector' in debt i ri nine—arid—a—half short years From $2.56 billion to $4.58 billion. Mr. Speaker, in the nine and halF yeart; that I:he Peckford adnii rii.sI rati on has b e e n coni:r'olI.i.rg anc:l adrni.nis I:er'tng our finances, the total public s e c t o r debt tha I: we have accurriul.atecl ha; ri Sen by $2 hi]] ion. That is quite a party these character's have had in t.l'ie last nine arid .... i halF years. Mr, . Speaker, there is 1K I:hird statistic which j umps out and cries out: to be spoken about. I have talked about the whopping increase to social services.

The second one that is frightening is the whopping .... icr'ease or the total. public sector debt, which jumped by $2 billion. The third one, Mr. Speaker, is even more frightening. The third statis tic, Mr. Speaker, that has to echo in every nook and cranny and cove across this Province is what h a s happened t:o the poverty 1. i. I I e i.r I:his Province, Mr. Speaker, in the nine -and -a halF year't; that: we have r.eeri tI'ii s government administer t h e afFatr't; of thi. PrMIrjnrP . Ii) do that, Mr. Speaker, you have to compar'e yourselves 1:0 one oF the Mari time provi rices .

We could coinpar e ourselves l:o any ni,iniiber oF the.nri, but, as has been poi nted out by the leader, the New Brunswick one is perhaps the fairest model. In 1981 in New Brunswick, Mr. Speaker, the percentage oF families living below the poverty line was 17.1- p e r, cent, v e r y similar to the Newfoundland experience which WaS 17.3 p e r cent. When you crossed the ni,ne —anda — half years of this yov e r nine n t ad mliii s t c r I fly 1: lie Province, you see in New Brunswick a decrease. ti: goes clown to something like 15 per cent. AN HON. MFMBER: Foiiri:een point three MR.

FIJREY: Fourteen point three per cent., a decrease or nearly 3 percen tage points. So, in the n:i.ne and a .Fial, F years we have had t h i s gou ernrnent, New Brunswick in I:he same space lies brought: :il:s poverty level down o v e r 3 percentage points . Newfoundland Mr. Speaker, in the same time. frame, the same ni.n&' .... arid a— half years, has seen its poverty level i.ncreu;e nearly 1 per cent. A little over 4 per cent, I think. The percentage or farni.lie s living below the poverty .line is up to just over 22 p e r, c e n t in t h i s Province.

Nearly one—quarter of all families living in the Province live be] ow the poverty line. Mr. Speaker', l:hos e ar'ci t:hr'ee startling, staggering, blistering s I:ai:isl:i.cs hits government: hat; to be held accountable for. Number One, the $1.4 billion :increase in social services expenditures, whu;h i,s shameFul.; Number' two, the total public sector debt after nine and a .Iial. F years of adnii niisteri,rig the Provi rice. S afFair',; has jWillJiftd b'J $2 l:,ii.lioni What a party they had Mr.

Sppakir Number thr'ee , t:he poverty level under this admi,ni s Lrati.ori has leapt 4 percentage p o i n t s to nearly 22.3 per cent, while i. n New Brunswick over the same time frame, WE saw it decrease. Mr. Speaker, that woul.d not be bad enough except the numbers right acr'os s the entire economy get worse, Mr. Speaker, as much as they hai:e to hear i. t , they are S . L 3 6 2 5 June 28, 1988 Vol XL No. 64 R3625

S .5 . going 1:0 hear it continuously till they go to see Lieutenant Governor McGrat:h and seek a warrant to is sue the writ to have an election. They are going to keep hearing it because it is their numbers , Lhei.r stat st.ics , and particularly that former Finance Minister. £ gave him a lecture last week on the state of the economy which he developed, the old kick—start minister, the good news bearer, the good news Minister.

Mr, Speaker, in 1979 unemp] oymurent acrorcltny I::o the Premier's own documents , and these are his Joci.nmierits inemimpl.riymnerit: in the Prom.m:iiice was 1- An ce the nat:iorial rat:-:.. The par I:i.: ip.:iI:i.on ri:i I:o was two] v e poi ru s below the nati onal ra l:e and the earned i.ncomume was more than half the nati anal average. In Fad:, I think, the tol a] earned income for the Province was 58 per cent of the national average. Mr.

Speaker, that was Premier Peckfor'd s quick analysis of the economy in those three areas: that our uneiruploymoent rate was twice the national rate, our parti ci pa tb ri nn te was tiMe Iv e points be] ow the national rate, and our earned ....icomne was ori].y 58 per cent of the national rate. Then he took us through nine and a ha].f years of government arid we saw, Mr.

Speaker, after just eight years of 'it, the unemployment rate w(A s two and a quarter times the ruati onal rate.., the participation was thirteen po'nl:s below the m-ial.i onal rate, and time earned income had dropped 1:0 56 per cent: of the rmataormei]. rate. Nothi rig changed We umer'e skahic, we were uck i mm the ecoruomi c mud, and we were not: 11101) i.ny upward , msmu.: were inn vi rig downward 'F got: a kick out of the Premier in 1982. I think, it was during the debal:es . When he was closing the debate at that time I remember well., Mr.

Speaker, him looking into the television camera and speaking to people darect].y in their living rooms. He said what he wanted 1:0 do most was 1:0 deal. with the Newfoundlanders he h a d run into in Calgary. He net them, I think, at the hotel in downtown Calgary. . hey caine 1:o his rcmomn, sat around and had a drink, and Lhe Premier heard their stories 0.1: being sent away from home and I:rying to Find work The I'refli'i.er cjaue out a rhetorical, question at. that time. He said, 'rheir mrua'i,n qm.uesi:'.mu:un was when can we corrie , home? Now, thati is what: the Preumier' said.

He Ltigcjmid a I: the heartstrings of Newfound] and and he played the emimoi:i.onal roller , coaster for what it was worth, and sumarti.y . He said, 'When can we come home? His dIreuiI was to bt'ing theta home, to briny them home as soon as possible But, Mr. Speaker, what happened in the intervening years between the time the the Prerrr.er Said, 'When can we come home' and the current day, right now?.I wi 11. tell You what has happened We have seen, Mr.

Speaker, I think our' party has calculated a total. of 18,700 people in the :'l,niter'I)en my years I th NO t.:hat takes us from 3985 to 1988 - in those three years , we have seen an exodus from this Province of 18,700 people . Mr. Speaker, that is 6,000 people every year, over 6000 people . More than thai:, Mr. Speaker, every waking day, every single day s:Lnce the beginning of 985, January 1, 1985 to the present: day, right now, today, 1.3626 June 28, 1988 vol XL No. 64 R3626

S every single waking day fifteen Newfoundlanders have left baffle. They have left home for good because they are leaving an economy that is twi sled, that is torn, thai: 'is shattered, i:hat is in shambles, and if you do not believe 'it, Mr. speaker, you ji.ist have to lake your car and get out on the highway and ever'yiAlherC you w:i 11 see young people hi t c hi. k 1. ng Where are they hitchhiking, Mr. Speaker? Are they h]tchlt.k:Lrlg to Grand Fails? Are they hitchhiking to Carrier Brook? Are they hitchhiking to E1onne F3ay? They are not hitchhiking to Bonne Bay, Mr, Speaker.

Six ty-five homes were closed last year in Bonne Bay last year alone. The fellow who checks the meters on the homes I-.old ne , when I ran in to Fi Un the last time, sixty—five homes in 1. ittle Bonne Bay, on the Southside of Bonne Bay, were closed up in the las I: year. They are. not hi tchh'ikirig to Grand Falls, Mr. Speaker They are nol: hit:chhi.ki.ng from St Anthony to fleer I ake, Mr. Speaker. They are not even hit chlii king to Port aux Rasques Ihey are hitchhiking to Toronto, Mr, Speaker.

They are hi tchFii ki rig to loroni:o to save Face, to ga I:her togni lie rthe little hi.l of digrrity they can SCr'Oiingie up by gei:ting I .uenii_y st amps to say that they have an i. n':onle so that: they c a n c onie home for , Chri s Lma s That is what is being to].d to me every s ingl.e time that I go up to my district, Mr.

Speaker, last weekend, next weekend when 1 go up there for the Salmon Festival and the Shrimp Festival, every time I drive North, I pick someone up on their way home from Toronto or Calgary or , Fort McMurray or Montreal, the last time I pic ke.d up 13627 June 28, 1988 Vol XL two young Fellows . They got - a job, even though they could not speak French. 1.1: was manual labour, pick and shovel stuff, but they go I: a j oh. livery iYinie I go North I am pickng up someone on the way home.

Every i:'iiiie 'C dr'ue Soul:h From Anchor Point at the top of my. district, to Deer take, :[ an picking i.ip young people between the ages of sixteen and twenty who are on their way to Toronto, Montreal, Fort McMurray and Calgary. Mr. Speaker, it i.s because there is nowhere to find work for them in rural. NetAJfoundland - They cannot get into the fishery because of the regul.at.io ns'in the fishery. They c a n n o t go in and cut wood because of the regulations imposed upon loggers and because of the limited timber , stands and because of the devas taltion oF the looper.

They cannot get on building roads because this government: will, not allow them to build roads. They will. not spend morley by Lining roads. There is no work, Mr. Speaker, except: the Few crumbs OF make .... iAior'k do) lars under the .student programs which coflhi- From OI:i'.awa, Ihat: is it: That is wher'e it stops So I get quite a charge out of this Minister of Fin,:nce. I am sure I heard him somewhere in the las I: month or' Sc) saying that: the real unemployment rate i ri this Province is 8 per cent. Is that what he said? AN HON. MEMBER: At Rotary, yes. MR. FIJREV: At the Rotary. .

The real uneinipl.oyme.nL rate in this Province No. 64 R3627 .

r 11 is at 8 per cent.. Can you imagine saying that? Tel] t Fiat to the people down in Bay d' impo -ir, Mn Speaker. Tell that to those people who were (n that petition. 4100 peop1e, 1,700 are in the workforc€.. Of a total wor'kforco of 1,700, 200 are employed full-time That leaves an 87 per cent uneiiiploymen t rate, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, tell the people of Trout River in the lower sect.Lon on the South s:ide of Bonne Bay in [fly clis tr':i.ct., tell. them that the iinenip] oyment rate in Newfoundland is 8 per cent, and I will. i:ell that: mini ster that it is 88 per cent: in that: corrniiurrti:y, They have never been given a chance, Mr. Speaker. Every bit of Fish. i:h.:.it: is unloaded, 3 million poinidc; last year, is trucked over , the wharF, out: or the comunun'i.I:y, and off to other districts. They I'1ci)O not had a chance, Mr. Seaker, , but: t hey are going to get the chance; Mr. Speaker.

As long as I am the member there and as soon as that Air H: is dropped, they will get the chance. They do not have to worry about. thai:. But, tell that to those people, Mr. S pea k e r Tel,i it to the peopl.e in Brig Bay who are struggling now in a fish plant where they have not been paid for last year, let alone this year! So, Mr. Speaker, these are the i- rut hful reali ties that.., this governiulen I: chooses to s tnk their' heads in the sand for. W h a I: 'is tI'lf) uiwnuber For , Bel.l.,:tvue y:i rig? Does he want to speak on tFi is or , ask a qi.ies Jail or sonuiethi ny?

Is he argui ng agai rust the F.3c1:s? 1.5 he saying i:hal: these are not true? They were c e r i:ainl.y 1:r'ue three months a g o when he was on this side hurling 1.1: back a I: thai: governinen I: over' there. MR. CALLAI'J: ( Inaudible.) MR. FUREY: I see. So, what defines at good iriembor? Cross the floor and pi.cI< up a few crumbs of pavement? is that a good member? Mr. Speaker, I will never cross the floor and he knows it. C AOl.l, never' cross the floor and sell out my el.ocL:or'al:e, the ei.eu:i:oratc t:hai: choose nue as a Li heral. That w:il I never happen!

Yon will never see this member wear the Tory label! SOMF HON. MEMBERS: hear MR. FUREY: Never, Mr, Speaker. MR. CALLAN: You would nol: he accepted Nell, Mr. Speaker, it is like tIii.s 'The Premier set up the standard. Nhat do you mean never be r:iccept.ecl? 'You takes what: you can get when you can get it. rhose are the Premier's words, not: mine. 'You take what you can get when you can gel: i.t . ' Now, that is what he said, sucking on the cigar, w:i. th the uruerriber for Bell evue blushing at his right hand like a 3pri.ung tomato. Now, that is the truth of the matter. MR. TULK: 'You takes what you can get.

MR.FLIRFY: 'You i:aI(e5 mba I: you can go: when you can get it. Now sit down. T. 1.3528 June 28, 1988 Uol XI No. S'l. R3628

got you, basically That is Speaker. never be standrrd. now shut up.' That is what he was say ing the harsh truth, Mr. So, Mr, Speaker, I will a Tory, even by that criticized the government, pointed out factuall.y the problems, and sought solutions . And what did they do? The answer is to attack the person. Mr' . Speaker, get: tiny back to the truth here about, the economic .inpact: on the Province, Mr. Speaker, we are toil cl rig about all k inch; OF 1:h'ricjs in i:hi.s i3udget and right across I he ecoi'iotny .

Let us talk For one second OlboLit t:he ni ri] si er s si aten,ierits (Artl'i respect :0 heal. t:h We Lal.kcd about: i.:he Minister OF Finance (Mr. Windsor) sayi rig it is only a per cen I: uneiriployinient: . I cannot be] i eve members opposite will actually si. I: here and not, refute their own minister. They know the truth of it. The truth of it is that it is officially, nearly 18 per cent. If you acid in Dr.

House's hidden unemployed, I thi:nk he says 10 p e r cent, ml nimurr , the hidden unemployed and 1:hose who have g iveni up, those who have moved away to take what they can get in terms oF eniployi,ient, Mr, Speaker, you have to add 10 per cent to that and l':haI: is really 28 per cent . That in devas LaI:iny That is ridiculous Well,, let: us 'talk about: hr'sp'iLal.s for a ml r,uI e MR .3, CARTER: What: about: the underground economy? MR. KEI.LAND: That is all savoury roots, 'John'. MR. FURFY: The results in the cutbacks in health care; We are seeing ever increasing .. cLitbacks year' aFter year.

Our health critic has pointed it out and done a very, very good job, constructively The last refuge of the s crounde.1 is someone who wraps himselF 'in patriotism and attacks his ,:r'i.I:ics ' person. Do not attack the pol:icy, do not attack t.l'ie pr'i.ni; pie, do 'iol: attack the argument, attack the person That: has boc•:!n I:l'ie s I:ory oF 1:his government: for the last, n i n e years. DeITl,e:i:, dI'½ ... .r'aci:, and dc everything but keep the cr1 ticisrni From i:he'i,r own doors .

Now that is the truth of the mi:itter, , Mr. p a a k a r When we po.nt out heal, I:h care cutbacks and we point out the n u r s .i n g s h or tag e , I: Iie rn in i s t a r says, 'No problems in nursing.' When we po:i.nt out the closure of beds, 'No problems in the closure OF beds . ' When we hail i:heiIi about: people who actually need heart surgery. 'No, ther'e is nobody needs heart surgery It might be funny to the hon. member for RelI,euue (Mr, . Cailan) but I will tell him a little 'tncidenil: I:hat'.. happene:I in ny ridi rig.

There was a gentle man who IiroCHCl an opera 'ion I i':oI.d +h is to o u r heal t:I'i cr1 t i c ... 'For aneiirysnnn, a very serious heart operati on, needed it, and was ready two or thr'ee Unties, i: t:h ink, but I had to go and approach the t'leai.i:li Minis I:er about: thai': and tell him about it, to get some ac1:on on I.L. Now, that is what it has come down to, Mr. Speaker. What kind of heait.h care system are we in? Is it going to he health for the r:ich? Is 't:hat what we are aiming for? MR. CALLAN: S . L3629 June 28, 1988 vol XL No. 61 R3629

S S . Wind. 1AJOLJ] (1 you do? MR. EtIREY: N ii: gong Ito he heal. I:h seru ices by how you vote? Is that what it will, come clown :0, Mr. Speaker? Water and sewer is by how you vote; Pavement is by how you vote. is heal. I:h how you c a n vote? Will you have to show a Tory card f o r , an opera: .011? Es that iAihat it will come down to? The hon. member' for' St , John' s North (Mr. J. Carter) says that is r' ight $ Well., there ar'e go ing to be a lot of liars between now and the next election if that: is what: it has come down to. AN HON. MEMBER: You will need blue blood. MR. lURE'! Because, Mr.

Speaker, 'a lot of Lheiii will, be holding Ilp these ior'y cifiCis, I'ioi(iirig their' nose while they are hol.ci:ing them up, to seek rriE:rJ:j ceil. lie] p. Mr. Speaker', the l.is I: goes on. T h e Education Mi mist er (Mr. H e a r

n) s.:iys , 'No, problems in education, a n d if there is a problem i.n edura Lion I. t. is merely a freak accident of geography. Is that what he said?. '[1: was something like that. 'It is a conspiracy of geography . It just: happens where your geographic circumstance places you. ' He does not talk about the tax base where, in urban areas they have a bigger , tax base therefore they get more cash, therefore, they give more cash to the students, therefore students get a better education. He does 'iot tal 1< about the limited doll ars in rural.

Newfoundland a n d p].ace; ii ke Tel] evue , i n places Ii. ke Sf: r'be, in places like Si:. Ant:hony, the small er the tax base, the smaller the tax collection; the smaller he 'tax ,:o],l.ect:ton, thc- smaller the amount that goes into ediicai:ion , Mr. Speaker' Mr. Speaker', education, I. tke health, is in serious difficulty. more is no ques Lion about that MR. CALLAN: Where would you get the money? MR. FUREY: I get a real charge out ofthcs yappers on tIie back bench o v e r there, Mr. Speaker, b e c a u s e t h e y ar'e the oni -s I:hat inipl.ic itly affixed their signatures to the railway sell. out. MR.

TOBIN: Nt) rr'e proud of .I—aJIl*' Mr. Speaker', I ask t:Iieii I:his question: Where would tAlo get the money i:o iria'inl:ai,n I:hai: highway once this quick cash di ssipeat.es? Mr. Speaker, one can use the aru:-il.ogy oF I:hal: beautiFul, hospit: al. over' there MR. TOBIN: What about Pi ckersgill 's letter? MR. FUREY use the analogy oF thai: beautiful hospital o v e r there. called I:hc Health Sciences Complex. No doubt it is a first class, first rate, up - to ....date, modern $40 million hospital.

That is great, it is wonderful. to see it built, it is a great asset to our health care, but let us just: look at it. Is it functioning 100 percent? Ar'") all. the beds open? no we have the numbers of speci alists we reqIir'e? Do we have the equ i.piiient necessary, up--to-date equipment? 1.3630 June 28, 1988 Vol. Xi No. 64 R3630

Okay, well all of guess what? maintenance! Can naintai.n that flO at capacity? If u with a hospital., God, how can we mu]. t I. ne g a ni 1.1 ion in ten years time We c a nno I: do ii: that is called, Operating and we operate and million hospital ie cannot do that in the name of do it with a dollar highway Can we do it? Twenty—first Century and 150 children in grades kindergarten to grade three on the Northern Peninsula have no money to put in fresh drinking water. Their parents have to give thorn ginger ale, milk , and water from home to carry to the school. .

Now that is what we are talking about. 1 we carino : nai.ii .ii.n our s cliooi.s Nir. Sjea 1< e r MR. C(U.l.AN: iTt dotAirp before ( I naudi ble k n cc k e ci ci ow ii MR. FURF.'( 1' have a little school in the Norl:hcrn par'i: of lily riding and it nerves kindergarten to grade three, 1, ittle toddlers . There are about 150 of them. It is called St. Genevieve's School and it sits on the St. Genevieve River. Perhaps some iriembers salmon fished in that great river. N HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible ) MR. FUREY: R-ight MR. (Fl LAND: Jim MorgRri does MR. FURP( Mr.

Speaker, those little children go into l:ha1: school every day, and it in really a rice little school but, (:10 'JCi'.I know soniütlii,ng , Mr. Speaker? They do not have the money to Fix the leaks, some of them are fixed. They do not have the money, , Mr. Speaker, gel: this grade <1 ndergarten to grade three, they do no I: have the Honey to itmI: in fresh, clean drinking water, Can you believe that? Can you he] i.eve that, Mr. Speaker, we are al.rrios t eleven years From the That is called operating and ma tnii:eriani:e. We cannot cia i. F! He cannot do it in hospitals. We car not do it in schools.

Hwo can we do ii, in highways? Mr. 9 p(i(Ifl'' jIis I: a quick point here wh:ti e I an on the railway, . nol:tce C oni,y h.:.ive Ri.ue minutes left. Mr. Speaker, I did have a iii,F an hour. Did i: not, only start at three o clock, Mr. Speaker? I thought I did. Mr. Speaker, with respect to the railway, and this is a very important point, because it goes right to the very heart and soul of what we are all aboul: in thi.s Chamber. What we are all about, all. fifty -two of us MR. J.

CARTER: Now we uri. 1.1 Ii 2.51 r S owe 1 i.e s ZZINIUVISM Well,, the hon . lllelni:)er'5 says, I Now we will hear some lies, He knows iAJhal: i,1lil siaoaki.nj is the triji:h He knioIAJs himself when he spoke on the cucuniber Fi,asco a rii,iniilier' of weeks ago he did it barely keep'i rig a s l:n'ai,uhi: Fic& . He wanted to bust out laughing after every second senil:en.:i-:.. He knows that. flu I: whal: we have heard From the Peckford Adrnini str,ation in the lasi: 'iine..and -a hal F years i.s fight, fight, fight for your rights! Fighi: on offshore oil.!

Fight on factory freezer , tr'aiAJi.ers Fight on all.ocat,:ions of S . 3631 June 28, 1988 Vol XL No, 64 R3631

. S Nor' I:herii c o d Figh I: iii. Lii 1.1.: Lie St Pierre and Mi quel on over Fish! ?igI.1F with everybody! liii I: get your rights SOME: HON. MF:MflERS: Oh, OFi MR. CALIAN: Stab, stab, stab. MR. EUREY Mr. Speaker, that was through the leFt side of their rnoul:hs . Do you know what they said through the right side of their mouths? Mr. Speaker, I will try to say this with a straight face without laughing. They were saying that Newfoundland and Labrador does not have a constitutional r:ght under Canada's Coristi tutiori for Canada to maintain NewFoundland'S port.on of the national trans portation sys Loin. Mr.

Speaker, do you know what, they said? They said, Tern 31 oF the Terms of Union does iot: give us that righ I: . l'ha : i. s wha t Iii rty- five members over there voted For. Now, soirie or I:heiri do riot. even reali e what they voted For, Mr. Speaker, because they are just trained in their seats to do as told MR. TOI3IN: Every time I move I see (inaudible) MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, the railway deal goes far deeper than just removing two streaks of rust from across the Province' s inner roadbeds .

It goes far deeper than that, you see, because the hon. member For Be]) evue is going to have to answer to his gr'andchii,drrn . Why did he sell outt the constitutional r.ighl: inher'ent in us joining 13632 :rur,e 28, 1988 Vol Xl. Confeder'al:J.on which bound Canada under Term 31 (a) , to look after our i.r'ansporl:ai.'ron n&; and to keep US up to r,at:i.onal standards? He has to ai -iswi:rI:hal: . Every member over there, the newly .:ppo1nl:ed mni,ster From Bt.irini Placentia Nest., the Minister of isihit is your' department anyway? We hardly ever hear from you Wha I: is hi. s depar tr,ient? MR.

TO8TN: You will find out about 'it MR. KELLAND: One hundred and forty—six per cent increase, that is his department. MR. FUREY Social Services, yes. The minister is so insignificant in his seatc His best speeches are made on his rear end, Mr . Speaker, but that is no insult to his ana tomimy Mr. Speaker, what I wanted to say is I:lii.: ';Yorj u,on,br::r op osite have to o,riswer hi story for the cons ill. I:ij i:i,ona 1, seii,c,ui: . No saw what happened, Mr. Speaker, when Mr. Di,efenbaker i:r'ied to steal, Term 29 out from under our noses. We saw wha I: happened there. Mr.

Speaker, there was a spec'ifi.c r'ofer'ence IlK) the ac l:ual. amount of money we would be compensate.d to k e e p 'is econom,cal,l.y 41:) to par'. When Diefenhaker tried to steal Mr' . Srnal.l.wood halted him in his tracks, to Mr. Smaliwood's cr'edi t. Mr. Speaker, Term 31 (a) - I get a real charge too out of hon. members opposi to saying, 'Ne 11, you know, what will happen in eight years time is that we wil.l. have . reopener clause. We cari a': 1:ual.l,y reopen th:is agreement . F3,il, Mr. . Sp&aker, not m)n(-) of I.:hemn No. 64 R3632

on the ol:her side, especially the only lawyer on the other side, the Minister of Justice (Ms Verge), who ought. to have known better - she is a competent lawyer and, I hear, a good lawyer, so she ought to have known better. The reopener clause, Mr. Speaker, is mush. It is pure, unaeJultera ted bluffery just gave ne leave, MR. DINN: He does not know any of the rules of the House. MR. J. CARTER: By ]eave. MR. FUREY: By leave. Thank you, very much. ce n.rial: Order, please The lion piItIIIl:)i'.r's Ame 1.5 i.ip MR. FURi:? in conclusion, wI'iat as happenu rig, Mr.

Speaker, on the railway lea 1. in that lerm 31 is sold Out, the reopener cl.anse guaranhoes that both I eve] s of government, will sit down and have a cup of tea in ci yhl years t:.inie, and Canada will say, YOU are up to par, And Newfoundland will say, 'We are not Lip to par, and Canada will say, Get lost!' That is what the reopener clause says. Mr . Speaker, T wish I:FiatT h a d unlimited time because I rca] ly to have a lot more to say. Mr. Speaker, I think I will get a chance in Lb is debat:e :0 fal.k moore AN NON, MEMBER: By leave! MR. FUREY: Ihank y o u very much. The hon. member for SI...

John's North gives me 1.0 ') e MR. DTNN: The lion, member for St: flarbe is nak ing a Fool. of himself MR. FLJRF'( Noum, I isteni I Mr. Speaker, could you silence the Minis Ler OF Mines (Mr. Dinni) because the hon, member for Sf:, John' s North (Mr. Carter) MR. SPEAKER: The Ficini . the member , For St. Barbe MR. FURFY Mn'. 9p;Icer , .mi'i,Jnr I: lie r a •i. 1, Ala y agr'eemronit let ne h:ig 'light some OF i:Fim: i i'icii i. ties ljla I: ha I) 0 1:0 hr po:i nted out LI n ci e r I he Consi:. l:ii Lion, .ermu 31 OF the re r'iris of Union MR. DINN: A point: OF order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A point of order, the hon. the M in Lster of M:i.nes . - MR. O'tNN: The hon. the member for St. Barbe is flaking a fool OF himself. He has run out of time now, as well as r'unni.ng out of everytti tog else. He does not have any leave of the house and he should sit himself down when he is called to order by the Speaker, MR. SPEAKER; There i s no point Of order. The hon. member's time is up. MR. FURFY: A point: of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER; On a point of order, the hon. . the nnemrmber for' .5 L. . Barbe S L3633 June 28, 1988 Vol XL No. 64 R3633

S MR. EUREY Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for 3:. John s Nor' :Ii (Mr , . 3 Car :er was clearly erij oyu rig roy presenta :1011 Of the fac :s From I:he budge'!. arid 1.11e red Iway arid I was aboiil: 1:0 gel: into irly disl:r'i.ek. He offered unlinii ted I cave. I t:hi nk hi.s cho 1. re oF aduer'bs Ala:; forever. 1s1.. hal. right? I accept l:ha I., Mr. Speaker, btii: C will. tell, Film thai I riced not go on forever, but 'ii he would give ifle another' iwo hours, 1 would be deeply appret: iat:iue, Mr. Speaker. Would you as 1< the hon. m e m b e r if he MO U I. d all. ow t: h a t ? MR.

SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no po 'in: of order. MR. DINN: And no leave, either. MR.SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the member' for ro r't. uric -- Iler'iil 1. tag e MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I r:ise on a point of order. i: did riot: par'i:'i.i:i.il..:ir'i.y want I o do it while my friend for SI:. Bar'he (Mn'. Eur'ey ) Ala!; speaking, though it. :15 a very serious pci mt. of order. MR. TORIN: He is looking at me. MR. SIMMONS: I ma I:ched as 'ny Fr Lend for St. Rarbe was making a very good speech and the gentleman for Bur:in - Placentia West (Mr.

Tobin) has now been in three separate seats, heckling all the while, and tgnortng the bas.c rule of the House that a member must speak from his own place. MR. J. CARTER: It is a precedent. There is no rule about tha I: MR.

SIMMONS Knowing the fairness of Your Honour, r . looked For' some protection from the Chair, and I am sur'o ii: was an ouen'si.ghl: on the Chair s part to all, ow :1 t. to persist:, huil: we have isia'LI:ecl For' more than a month for tIiis par t:',cul.ar 111.1d9nl: DeI:ate to he called and we would like to have an o p p o r tun'i'i:y to be hear'd . '(F .there are interventions, we under'stand that., but, Mr.

Speaker, what we say today, and I just used the g e n tl.einan for Bur':Ln Placentia West as an example, in the 1': he Was "i.n t:he Pr'einrier s seat, and the one on either side of the Premier's seat at v a r i o u s times d u r i n g the past twenty minutes, shouting and heckling at will, wi.thou I: being called to order. I would a s k the Speaker', if he isioi.il,d r'es t:r'a:in thi:: ge 111-1. effi,A n Froiri Rur:i.ri -. Placentia West? I know he has eq lot: on hi.:; urUid .

C know he has other things he wants to say and isle 1.00k For'isjar'd to hearing them, to henefi tting iron' his undoubted IAI'i,sdonl cr1 I:he su.ibj &iC t OF social services and so many other I I:enis on i*jh'i,:I'i he is so well, versed. I wonder if i: could peal, to him For some protection? We have other spe.:'ikers here who Maul: to s p e a k a n d could we have jt. a Ii tUe pr'otect.ion fr'omni the Cha Lr arid a little give and take so that we can get on IAn tli the debate? My point of order, Mr.

Speaker, is the the gentleman for Burin -- Placent:ia West, and I coul.d use others, I could use the gentleman f o r , Pl,easantvill,e (Mr., D 'inn), the gentleman for St. John' s North (Mr' . J . Carter), the gentl.eirian for' 1 3634 June 28, 1988 Vol XL No. 64 R3634

On a point: of order, Mr. Speaker. S MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the Miii is her of Social Services . MR. TOBIN Mr. Speaker, we just witnessed herein this I1ouse the member for' Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) was tiny the hisne of the House on the Budget Debate because his leader was iiol: in I:he chair hi) participate :i n the debate . The rieniber For Fortune - ier'riitage did what he usual] y does best and that is get: up and it I: t:,tC( people Now, Mr.

Speaker, we just isiij:nessec:l I:he irmeiriber for Fort:une Hermi tage, who last week had to apologize here in Front of two of his federal colleagues, Mr. Speaker, had to apologize here twice last week, withdraw his 01 :omnieni:s three i:inmes and he ought: to talk about conduct in this House, Mr, Speaker! IF there is anybody in this House who constanti.y abuses the rules of the House, who has to apologize to the louse more oFt.e.n than anyone else, it is the member for Fortune -- Hermitage. He should not he permitted to waste the time of the House the way he just ci td MR. SPEAKER: lathe pof.nI: of order.

There is no point of order. The hon. the Leader of the Oppos i. Lion SOME HON. MEMBERS: br. hear MR. WELLS: Mr. c3pi.;ikcr. I om, happy i:o have an opportunity to address this House I- hrough 'r'oi.ir Honour on the 5 ReTlev'ie (Mr. Cal.l.an) , have all during the past tLAienty minutes or, so, whi.l.e my friend has been speaking, breached the basic rules of this Chamber, and we really cannot participate in this debate very productivel,y if thalt k:Lrd oF thing is going to go on. I would ask you, Mr. Speaker, IF you would show a I itt.le fairness MR. I. CARTER: Make him s Fiu I: up. MR.

SIMMONS: Does the member for St. John s North want: ho say something? MR. TOBT.N: Mr. Speaker, this is shocking MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! kJoul d 1. lie lion, the member for' lor'tune tler'mnl t:age please presen: lii s poi vi: of order? MR. TULK: Make your point of order, he says. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I will waive on it for now. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no poInt of order, MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The harm. the L e a d e r of the Opposi. I: ion. SOME [ION. MEMDFRS: 11e:ir , hce.ar InR. WELLS: l'hnn!c you, Mr. .Spe..ker. MR. TOHIN 3635 June 28, 1988 Vol XL No. 64 R3635

. r Budget. .1 sugcjes I:, Mr. Speaker, we cannot really judge the acceptability of the minister 's Budget Speech or' the budget ary proposal given on the 29 or March this year wI:ho'it looking back at last year's b u d g e t aiic:l exanii.n ing limO presor I I 1 proposals arid tie present s ila€eipiermt or policy arid posi. Harm iii the context of last year' s :)Lidyeil .

That is essential. 10 Ful I y appreci ate uI,, arid the d:i.rculns Lances in which we were dealur,g with last year's budget arid the kind of aLtitude the government was conveying at t h e I: i.me, proinolLed in the ma in by the Prencler himself when lie g a v e. an intervIew to The Sunday Express in which he says this: 'I say that we have at the outside two years and then it is 1933 all over again. Now that was the gloom and doom t h a t the Prerni er was preachi rig twelve won ths rig o .

That is the gloom and doom that the hon. the Minister of Finance was talking about, being preached by the Pr'eini.er and the whole gover'rmmnur-nt last year. TFui s was foIl owed up l.a ter in a CBC 'Ini:r:rvi.ew nI'I:er I:he Budget was deli ocred The Budge I: itselF, Mr, . Speaker', t'alk about, 'tl'ie Prc.vince is an increasingly cli.fFic'.ult posrIliorl. Now I his is last year's Budget. 'The Pr'ouince is an i.ncreasingi.y difficult position. Our , economy r''nna ins weak whi.l.e ol:lier' provinces strengthen and prosper. Our euiiployir;ent plc ture is a national disgrace.' All those statements a r e true, Mr.

Speaker, 'This harsh assessment at the outset of our 3 9 t h year in Confederal: ion is confirmed by an array of factual evidence which allows us rio other

interpretation. ' That was the lion. Minis ter of Finance of last March, now the present Deputy Premier (Or'. Collins) . Thai: IAJC1S their judgement theh of the state or ifF.:ii,r'; in Ne&iFouirmcll.:mnd 'Eon' time yu-ar' ruilnied'Ia I:ei.y bn.for'e us w anita ci pate extremely t.r'yi rig and IloslIling cir'c'.uiustanices par ti. c u] a r I y ía r t he ii ia ii c i. a]. st,:1l1t.IS of the cj0t)er'nuieni: 'i,i:sel.f 'in :it.s role as t h e deliver of the vast bulk oF pi.iIJIc services needed by our people. ' That was the gloom arid doom that was preached last year, Mr.

Speaker. rhat is tl'ie way they natAl the sLate of affairs in this Province, i'hat is how they judged the economy Now just take a look at this year's Budget. Here is the kind of tFi:ing you have . They ar'e talking about the Province's strong, economic perForiruance . l"he position is improved because of the si:r'ong econoirr.c: perfor'rnanice of the Province and continuing i.nipr'ovenuenits in the prov'i.nc:teal. economy following full recovery From the n'ecessi.on or the early 1980s . Our economy mAul remain b'.uoyant, I:l'ioy say SOME HON. MEMBERS: lear', hear! MR.

WELlS 'We brought t.Fm:is Provi rice sourmd].y through the liryi.rig yeomr's oF recession in the early 1980s SOME HON. MEMBERS: lear, hear'! MR. WELLS: 'Our policies have helped . this Prov.inice enjoy one of its most prosperous years in 1987. SOME HON. MEMBERS: L3636 June 28, 1988 Vol. Xl No. 64 R3636

Hear, hear! want to go in at the moment C MR. WELLS: Now, I know, Mr. Speaker, there were two different ministers, but thse are two different countries, two di.ffer'en worlds they are talking about. Which one was Felling the truth? They could riot both be accurate at the same time. ook at. what the Premier is saying flow. IF_isa d.i.ffererii: s For'y lie has been preaching now. R e c e n t statements talk about the success of economic development and job devel,oprnen I: s trategles . 'The programs and policies of the you ernrnen Ii are del.iu er'i.ng thn (Cods, lie n a y S SOME HON. MEMI3F.R3: Hear, hear! MR.

WElLS This was earlier' Lb is month. Fcoriorirc Growth arid rnaj or , ga'i ns being exper i. cncocl 'in I:lii.: .. .:ksi: tRio years ar'c corit Flu] rig . SOME lION, MEMBERS: Hear. hear MR. WELLS: Now, twelve months ago, the then Minister of Finance (Dr. Coil. ins) was saying what a desperate circumstance we were in, and here is t h e Premier thi.s year saying that. the economic growth of the last two y e a r s are continuing. They were talking about the s a m e period of time then. Which one is accurate? Whichever -is suited to the moment is the answer. MR. TULK: Thai: 'is right MR.

WElLS TI. in a conicoct:toni created to satisfy the pol.'t t'i.cal. lAth liii or the niorriei-i'F, Alhi] cFiever' d .... ect:ioni €liey 'rho budge:. is not an a CCLI r a t e assessment of our inancial or econonn C 5 i:ai:e , not at all, an accurate assessment of our financial, a n d econdlin ic s tate - T h e budgit., Mr, Speaker, as last year, was concocted to facilitate the pos:i.tion the government wanted to take to brow—beat the Government of Canada because of the desperate financial cirrums I:ances we were in Then when they saw it: was not working - we ar- e get i::i.ng closer tic, an election - notwithstanding there was rio S iyriFi.cani: change everything is rosy, when in fact, e:onoinicail.y , we isieF'(j wor'se - I have examined those two budgets an':l I have exain:i.necl the year tn between arid looked at the economi C Fac 1 :5 - There is only one reasonable conclusion, that the conciiis'tons and p o s i.i:':ions t,:.iken by the Mi ni st..er' of Finance in budget are no i ~ j us Li E:ied .

They are not an accurate representation Of the true state of the cconioirlic affairs of this Province. For that reason, Mr. Speaker, I am go Li -ig to illove, seconded by i:he hon. the member for Fogo (Mr Tulk) , thai. all, of the worth; afl:er the word 'that' be struck arid replaced wi, th the following 'Thai: this House condemn the government for its failure to a c cii r a i: e 1. y r e pr e ; en 1'. Lie t r u e state of the economy of t h e Province and i:iie government 5 consequential fail ur'e to take appropr''i.a Fe budge tar'y :c Lion to deal wj.th'i the real problems Mr.

Speaker, to judge whether we s hotil...I vote For , tha F :niendreni F or , give approval to the mini ster s r 1.3637 June 28, 19813 Vol XI. No. G/L R3637

. . . budget, let us take a look at the 1987 s Latistics and see what happened between those two budgets TIia I:. budget; found the pres en I: Deputy Premier conicludi rig that, 'The Pr'ou-Lni:e is in an inicreasU. rig] y difficult pos i Lion Our economy r'eiii&l1.ns iAJi!( while at her provnces s ncniyt hen and pr'osper. our ernpl.o'jnient pi.i:t:i.ir'e is a iiu .:ionial disgrace In order :0 .:1pprove o 1:11e mu nu:ister S budgEt, you (All]l have to Find that there is a 180 degree urniarounid from that position dcscribed by the Minister or Finance of last year.

Now, just take a look at the facts and see whether it supports the minister' s not ion or my amendment Just Took at one fact:: The direct debt alone increased by 6.4 per cent in one year, by $200 mill ion our direct debt of last year increased. That is $352 for every man, woman and child in this Province. That is what we did to our direct debt in that year, 1987, and the Minister of Finance now ta] ks about the great shape we are i.n , when we added to ou,ur deb I: burden for every man, woman and Fii,lcj $3 2 AN HON. MFMBFR: (I nauci ibl.

e) MR. SPEAKER Order, p1 ease MR.WElLS: fln k y oi:i Mr, . '3pea k er Our direct debt, Mr. Speaker, apart from what we are liable for on guarantees and indirect debts, such as Hydro and the Municipal F:inance Corporation, is up now to $5,472 for every man, woman and child in the Province The total public sector debt is up now, Mr. Speaker, to $8,000 for every man, woman and child in the Pr'ov iiiCe. They added $300 to 1 I: just last year alone, MR. TULK: 5r,,1ncla1.011s 15ranc.:il....us MR.WELLS You would not nr nd , Mr. Speaker, Fi:i,:i so,ri&:t:h lug 1:0 show For' it. MR. TULK: rh.:, I: is r.i g Fit MR.

WEI.LS: What do we have today to show for thai.: tncrease ci' debt of $200 million? Absolutely nothing that the govermiunen t achieved in the last twelve months to show for it.. IL is spent on operating expenses, trying to keep hospital beds open, schools Functioning and failing even at that. The unemployment rate, Mr. Speaker, that the minis ter twe].ve months ago called a national disgrace Is siil.T a national disgrace and was a national clisgrai:i. For the whole of 1987, notwithstandi rig what the Minister, of Vinaniu:e now says. True, Mr.

Speakei" , it dropped by, believe, 1.. 1 por'i:cni-.age points on the year. It did, indeed, drop by 1..j. pen' ':eni t:ge po.mits Statistically that is accurc..te, but only as a statistic. The real. si tuation that flows out of it did not i,uipr'ove at all.. Hut, it is an undeniable fact that is dropped by 1.4. per ceni:, but the lot OF Newfoundlanders was no better as a result OF it, and T will tell, you why It may be true to say it dropped L3638 June 28, 1988 Vol. Xi. No. 61 R3638

S by 1 .l p e r- cerii . That is an urideniabl.e ('ac is 1:hc c:oricltisj oris I he Premier arid the Minister' of' Itnance have been cirawi ny from that Fact that are to lial.l. y ijr ong a nd 110 : a 1.]. y liricorrect They c o n v e y a totally i.i -iaccurate ptctur'e of' the state of our economy. When you compare, Mr. Speaker, our perfor'ioarice in terms or our u ni erripl oyme n t rate wi t h the performance or the nation, you AD.1) s e e clearly we have performed poorly and the Pray ince is infi nitely worse off in relation to the rest of Canada now than 'ii: was last year.

At the time the minister broughki.n his budget, we were worse oFf than we were, iii rel.al: ion lio tI'ie rest of Canada t h a n when the former Mini ster of linance brought i. n the budgel: the year before. Yet, t h e mini ster stands in the I louse a n d talks about tlie great economic; gains arid the great 'iiriprovements hat is ol ally, Mr Speaker, i naccurait e kJhen 'jon 11)0k at: it: and look al. Ihe figures in April and May of 'this year, the latest (H.gures we have are for tije month of May.

They caine out earlier this I non l:h Our unemployment rate in the month of May, despi. to the qr'eat claims of progress, waS 2.21 times the national average, more than twice the national a v e r a g e by nearly a quarter. r h i s time last year it was only twice the national average.

We have gotten that much worse than the rest of the nation, arid the Premier and the Miii ister' of Finance stand in the House and try to tell. the people of this Province that we are making great econoari i. c ga ins; , AJe are hay tog terrific irnprovenrmerit coinipared to the r'es I: or Canada; we .:ir'e perfornmn rig feir ,bet ter than, the r('si: Of Canada; 110 other' par'l: or 1 3619 June. 28, 1988 Vol XL Canada performed t h e way we did II: '15 Ii) I:al.l.y 1tnc cl.earl.y wrong, Mr. Speaker. E v e n the government's own labour bulletin indicates that that. is wrong.

If you look at those coirunents. contained in t h e. first page of that document, which is an off'i.c'.ial. publication or the Department of Labour of this Province, in speaking about t h e unemployment rate they s a y this Th e uneniploymmient: rate For t h e Province in March was 21.9 per c:ent, which is an 'tncr'ease of 2.3 points over the January figure . Noisj, in each or the months at February and March the Premier was standing ini this House talking about the s ignificant improvement when, in Fact, the gcivernimnent 'S own statistics say he was wrong, it got: worse by 2.3 percentage points .

They theim compare it to the nat: ion as a whole. This compares With an increase of . 1 other' umori:ls , i:im'ie tenth of 1. percent, in the national rate from 8.9 n .Jciniiar'y to 90 in March. Now that is how we are performi rig by comparison w:ith the national rate. Rut the Minister of Labour now wanl:s l:o denioi.ince tlii.s document. He does not like it. He does not like what i .f says, He does n o t like the accurate com'ici.usao ns that ar'e drawn from it because he wants to convey another image, that we are doing wel .... i.n this Province, when, in fact, just 'the opposit:e is true.

Arid all. the other facts, Mr. Speaker, indicate quU:e clearly how poorly the economy is performing. Now, Mr. Speaker, our , unemployment r'ate, For' l:he f''i.ve months or this year , that we have to . date, has avcr'aged l:i&i() and a qmiarl':er , t: mnes the national average unempl oyment rate, yet, they stand and say how No. 64 R3639 . .

C much better' we ar'e doing a n d why the minister brought down his budget and budgetary proposals and made his statements as he did about: the terrific increase and improvement in the Province 's scar omrm:tc sit:uat: Ion He says, "This past y e a r , was marked by cant inui.ng i.mnprovenienl: in the provi ncial economy, fo].] owing full r'ecover'lJ froimi the r'ecess ion of the early 180." itj s t:ol ally inaccurate, Mr. 3peaker' , and conveys Lo tally l:he wrong :1 nrmpressiori to our peop] e The reality is, relatIve to 1:he resi of the nation, we are getting mjmor'se Make no IIIi.!;L,Iko about ii',!

You have to ask the questions, Mr. Speaker', do those coniirieni:s a c c u rat el y r ella c t the rcal. si tua Lion 'in this Province? Do they tel] our , peop] e what the real S ituation is so thai: our' people can proper] y judge what to do, how to plan, where to go, can proprrl.y judge whether they stay in this Province or leave because of the desperate economic situation the government has created? Now, Mr. . Speaker, T. did say It. is true that our unemployment rate was r'edcced by 1.. I. percen tage poi ritf in that year That is accural:e . Ii: . 5 :111 Inden Labl.c, fact .

We still got worse i ni rel.a 1: ion to the rest: oF Canada, bul j L is accurate I hat from 1987 to 1988, ('Ji.IrInlg the course or the year' 1987, our un,enimploymerit: rate genier'ali. y reduced , on average, 1.4 per cei'ut . Now, that is genera]] y an jr. u;iira 0 ('a: I',, bu I: does I itidi cate that things h a v e improved? And 'LI' I:hey did not: improve, how is it that that LA n emnp 1.0 y ne n I: r a I: e reel u i: eel ? Mr, Speaker, I will tel.l you how it is . There are two lac tors thai: exp] ai n ]t.. One i.s what h a s happened to our' population.

When L3640 June 28, 1988 vol XL you look at. the figures, they are. startling. This is the fourth sl:raight. year' of declining population. No other province of Canada has a declining population. This is the fo.urth s tra i.gh t year' for , Newfoundland We have fewer , people in this Province r:i.gh I. now 1:han we diet tn 1981, seven years ago. We have fewer' peopl.e here ilolsi than we d:u.cI in 1981. And if the decline comm I: mules, Mn'.

Speaker, for the balance of tics year' at.'. the same rat:e th;.qt: 'ii: has been dec i.:in:i.iicj In the first. quarter 0 ....his year, we will. ham.ie Fewer' people in Province than we h a d when this gouer'nunmen I.:, headed l:)y this Premier, took office. T h a t will be their le g.:iu:y to this Pr'ov truce Talk about taking ü s hac <wards That is what i:hcy have done, they have led the way backwards, driven eighteen thousand people OUt of this Provi rice in the last three year's so that t:hey could liavr- an opportunity to seek a living for their' fandl.i.es mAfl th a measure of dignity and self—respect.

In the last . three ....inda ....quar' ter year's, 1985, 1986, 1987 and the first quarter oF 1988, Newfoundland I population went down by 5,600, , 1 ct:ual. ciecremase in numbers Now, look at: what liappened iii P.E.I. Little P.E,I. increased by 3,000 in the same period of tune, New Brunswick by 4,500 in the same per' Lcd ol' l:inuie, Nova Scotia by 17,000 in the s a m e time. N0IAJ, if those pr'ov lures had a declinIng popul ati on as well, we could say, yes, ii: 'u' l:he national, recession, it is the international si tuation I:ha I: 'is causing 'i : . iiu I: every other province of Canada is increasing.

Our' sister' provinces, the Atlantic Provinces, are 'tncreasi.ng . What: is dIFferent a b o u t us? I will tell you, Mr. Speaker, what is diFferent about No. 64 R3640

r us: It is the government and its policies and its attitude that has desi:royed the e':onomy or tb-is Provi rice i ri their term of office That is what is di.fFi-renF. about: us. MR.TUt..K r:i yht on! SOME HON. MEMBERS: lear. hear MR. WELLS: Mr Speaker, when you add to our loss of 5,600 the number 13, 100 by wh2ch our number of births cx ceederl our number of deaths, then you come to the figure of the number of people we have driven out of this Province as a result of government l policies and attitude, 18,700 in the last three-and a•-quarter years Now, thai.

H one expl.an.:iC: on as to how -I he uriempi oynienL rate dropped, you drive them out: or the ['rev mm and then they are no I origer 'inenipl,oytnenl: si:atist.i.g:s. Thai: is how you get: your unemployment, rate clown. Thai'. is how this governnlienh has done it.. They drove 18,700 of l:hein out or the Prov i.:e , l:ha 1: is low they did it. There is another riiet:hocl i:hey use, Mr.

Speaker, one that I call the soi: lii, assistance diversion' , the sad method, and they have used that extensively in the last two to three years They have been diverting social assistance rec ipients from social assistance to unemployment insurance by what some people call the Loto 1042. MR. TULK: That is right. MR. WELLS: That is the common name you hear on 'ii: in l:he sh:r'eel:s , the Iota 1042; if you are lucky enough to get assigned to one or these ten week make—wbrk projects, you can gel: unenipl.oyiiient: tn;i.ir:nce For the next forty—two weeks. MR. TULK: Ihal is econorn:i c developmn,nt MR.

WELLS: Al so, in addition to diverting il and increasing the number oh unemployment insurance recipients, the result is you initIate the number of people employed and lower . the number or people unemployed. That is the second method you use to arl:.ificial,ly reduce your unemployment figures and make it look as though you have done something When the Premier made the claim that he did in Apr'1l of this year, when he said 'The economic growth and enipl.oynient: gains experienced dun rig the last, two years :1 ni this Province are cankivoFing .....'J933 that is what he was talking about., the tote 101-2, Mr.

Speaker MR. TtlL.K: The sad program. i'IR . kJI::r.i_s The Sad Program. The social ass'tsi:ance diversion prograiii. But you cannot do that, Mr. Speake.r wil-.hout l.eav i.nig .:i trail i:)ei'Iu.ud that can be tracked down. There is a sure way to spot it. If the improvement in the employment were genuine, IF we were genuinely creating new jobs for our people, then the number of people receiving unemployment insurance would decrease .

It is axiomatic - You do not have to he an economic genus to figure 1.1: out. i:f you are creating genuine new jobs and iimPU' -ing the number or people in the Province who are properly . .3611 June 28, 19138 Vol. Xi. No. 64 R3641

emp] oyed on ful L-time jobs, you Nova Scotia would reduce the number of . MR. J. CARTER: (Inaudible) MR. WELLS: Welt, it is t o o bad the nietaber cannot think of people recei vi ng unemployment insl.Irarlce, parl:iciil.ar'l.y, , Mr. Speaker, where, at the same ttme, \JOtJ tie driving t;Iiousarids of ol hers out of the Province MR. TULK: Ri gli'! art MR. WflLLS: You would reduce the number. Rut what: have we been doing? WWe Iiaui- been increaici rig the number on unetnpl.oyitien ii insurance.

IF our numbers of persons re ceiving urienipl.oymeni: insurance had been goi rig down, as has happened in Nova Scotia, New FIri,inswi.ck, PE[, and the other provinces, but those are the ones most comparable to us and thàse are the ones I have been using, so let ne give you the figures, Mr. Speaker: In PEI, during thai: 1:hree years that the Premier was talking about, the number dropped by 308; in New Brunswick i rm that period the nutriber , of unemimployrneni: 'insi,mr'ance recipi erits droj:ped by 2, 362, a n d in Nova ScoLi.a it was down by 2,970.

Now, in the meantime, when they were lower ing their nm.miuber on utmerrip] oymerut :1 risurance, you have to renietober, Mr. Speaker, i:Fai: hey were also increasing by i:Iioi,isands the number of people in f lie Prov:i rice MR. TIJI.K: Where was t hi C? They were creating real jobs and gi.v ing eiiipi.oyrnen t to their people. But look at Newfoundland . What happened to the number of unemployment insurance rec ipien t:s in Newfoundland in those three years? We increased 1:heici by 2,035 in the same period of time when we drove tn ,00() others oul: or the Province.

T•ha•L•is how you I outer your' imncrmmpi.oynmerl: i.rsIJraIice rate That is what explains 'it. MR. J. cAJfl'rR Would the hon. member perrni:'i 1: a Item; I; 'i. on? MR. TULK No, C IAIOiJi.CI tiOt . have learned my lesson with the member. He :is not accijral:e 'sihen he represents- what he is going to do, so I will no 1:, pe rnli. I: i.: Those figures are undeniabl.e Facts and figures provided by StatistU cs Canada. They are undeniable facts and figures, and there is no other logic or reasonable conci,us ion to draw from it. And, Mr.

Speaker, there are a lot of o t h e r facts that prove the point beyond the shadow of a doLibi: . [if we were doing so well, Mr. Speaker, why is it that there have been 30,000 more people added, to the nurnhe r's i:hai: are living below the povert:y line in the sante period of time? Why, , Mr. . Speaker? MR, J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of time Opposi i: ion MR. FURF.V: Is Iii 1; a point: oF order? MR. WELLS: MR WEltS Is this a point, oF order? In PF'I, in New Brunswick, and in .3642 June 28, 1988 Vol XL No. 64 R3642

MR. J. CARTER: Yes, it certainly is MR. SPEAKER: A point of order 1 the lion. the ,nieiill:)er , For , SI .... ohn S Nor' MR . J. CARTER The leader of the Opposilion is Ini,Sl.e(Id trig Hlis Hollso or Assembly . Now, he is riot do] ng ii: intenktonal.1.y . :ioi nd: suggesting any motives, but I do Say he i.s misleading this House of Assembly lie knows very wel. 1 that if there are a gr'ea t many new j ohs created wi] ess those jobs are full—time, f Lfty--two wecks of the year', then there will he a lot of people who w ill. qi,ial. ify For , t.i neinplo ynie n t insurance.

So it follows that the fact thci t the nuiribe r of peopl.e recei v:! ng unemp] oyment i nsurance goes 'if) 15 not necessaril.y a reflection of the amount of uneinployinen I: in the coiin try . Now, that is a fact. MR. SPFAKFR: There is no poi nt. of order, just a difference or opinion b&tiAJlll two lion. members The hor the I. ;J-' of 1:Iie Oppo si. t i on MR. NrLl.S: Thank you Mr. Speaker' Now he 'Is running away Fr'oiI the truth. He has an aversion to the truth. The truth is, Mr. Speaker if you are creating full—time jobs for your people, you ar'e not ancreas i. ny the unemployment insurance roles.

I do not know what he is getting at. He is not getting at anything sens i.b.e, it was just an attempt todi vert: When they hear' the tri.i Ui, they divert. This is the tactic. You always know, or at least I always know, when we ar'e scoring an effective point and making it clear' , then the cli. ver Si onary tactics start, s u c h as that just prac: i:i.,:er:l by llio hon. member' For , Sf3 ohn s North Mr. Speaker, in add] Lion to SOME HON, MEMBERS: Oh, oF MR. WELLS Mr. Speaker, I will just simply Ala it unl:i.l there :i.s quiet i.n the H o u s e and t h e n I will conti flue on.

If they Alan t that to be the whole week, then, that is okay, it will he the whole w e e k MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. PEACH (inaudible) control, IJIe whole House, boy, what do you think you arc doing? larry .:eel ...... .ontrc'ls you. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WELtS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker'. N0IAI, Mr. Speaker, having explained two of the re;.isons why 'It iS clEUr' that they can stand and say, 'Yes, ther'e was a drop or l 1. per' cent in o u r unemployment rate ' - a n d thaI:. is trite how was that', clone and what are the consequences of it?

Can we FaIrly draw t h e conclusions that they have asked us to draw? The answer is no, because we have driven tens of thousands oF o u r, people out of this Province to achieve it, and we have diverted ilor ,e onto the unemployment insurance roles That: is how we have achieved it:. S L 3 6 4 3 Tune 28, 1988 Vol. xi. No. 61 R3643

. MR.TULK: The truth is it has gom- '.ip. MR. E[.LS: The truth is it has gone up. Mr. Speaker, at the same time, for those who a r e work irig or otherwise, we have greatly increased tIie percentage of o u r, population that is living below the pover' Ly 1 inc ILlS I.: to give you the figures, Mr. Speaker, For 198:1 arid 1986, It was in t:he poverty report For Canada jssued in May, Poverty Reporl: '88 i: think ii: is called here is what the ' figures i.nd i.cal:e Ihey show the two census years, 1981 and 1986. In iga:t , 15 per CE:ri1 of PFT Fanil.ies were living below the poverty I inc.

That was reduced by 1986 to 9 . 8 per ctri I: , Nova Si:o i:ta reduced theirs from 1 5.4 per cent to 14.5 per cent. Now wi. arid Newfou rid] and were in about the same boat in 1981 . New Brunswick was slightly , worse t h a n Newfoundland in 1981, they had 17.6 per cent of their Families living below the poverty 1. ne Newfoundland was 17 , 4 per cent just a little b i t less t h a n New Brunswick. BLit IAI h(A L d i, Cl they do by 1986, Mr. Speaker? New Brunswick's had been reciuced to 14. 3 per cent and Newfoundland I s Alas dr Luen l:o 21., 2 per, can SOME: lION. MEMBERS Shame Shame I MR.

WELtS: U: IsielS 50 per cent worse I:han New Brunswick five years later. That is holac well, i:h is gover'nnien I: has perforniE:d . That i S what they have achieved iii I:h'i; Province. They ave devastated the e c o n o m y in this Province. That has the effect of adding more I:han 30,000 to our roles of people living below the pover'l:y line. That i.s what that does to us, Mr. Speaker. That i.s the per'centage of our families, but the actual percentage oF o u r people living below'the poverty line is 22.8 per ccii t MR. I. CARTER: That i s not true MR.

WELLS They c:lo c'iot like ti"utl'i. .hey have a real aversion to truth andt hey do riot like I'.o hear ii:. They want to call it lies, and they concoct anti FabricaI:c., like this so .cal,lec Id I ter from Mr. Pi ckersgill , The stood in tIie House todfl%j and said, ' signed by the youernciieril: when the leader of the Opposi tion was a part of it. Thai: is an ou l:r'ighl: fabr'ica I: ion, totally false. In fact, I have it, 1: have seen it, and I talked to Mr. Pickersgiil, so I have the truth about it. II: was an agreement made in 1964 when I was not even in the Pr'ovince.

Now, I might have been working on the Trojan horse at thaI: t.irnc., but I was not in the Province. In 1964, Mr. Speaker', that was when that was done. Mr. Speaker, let me tell, you when the Argent: ia line was closed. In Decernhctr 1986, by thai - lion, it nis t e r who was then minister responsible for Iransportati.on. 11ow is that For, mis] eading the House? They know what l:hey are doing euer'y I:iine they concoct things like thi.s . It is no trouble 1.o Ftgcir'e out what they are doing. It- is no trouble to l:el.l. Aciictni a point is made and when they feel gross discomfort Mr.

Speaker, having greatly incre ....;ed the number, OF people on unerrip].oynienl: i risuranice , and driven L364'l June 28, 1988 Vol XI No. 64 R3644

thousands of our people out of the Province, and put Lens of thousands more bel ow the poverty line, they are still, not saJsFied. T h e minis Let' say; khey are not true. When you look at those statistics, produced by Statistics c:arada , and lie can I augli if lie likes, hip I: when you look a!: those :-1 atisi ics, Mr. Speaker, it shows clearly that this gouer'rimenl: has presided over I he devast.at:ion of our econoin'j MR. J. CARTER: A poi it of order, Mr. Speaker, MR, SPEAKER: A po i.nt of order, the hon. cho member for St. John's North. MR. J.

CARTER: The leader of the Opposition is no stranger to SLaI:istics Canada and the -Forms they send arourd . My point of order is t:hmt he is again, unintenitionally, I am sure rnisli-ading the House. The reams and rearris , and reams of forms that come From .StaI: is tics Canada you knioui darn well are falsified, because -a Fill i:henj out ac cura-t.ely (Atoll] d require more time than ther'e is at everyone s disposal . So