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October 21, 2010

39th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2010-Oct-21 (PDF)

L058 - Thu 21 Oct 2010 / Jeu 21 oct 2010

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Thursday 21 October 2010 Jeudi 21 octobre 2010

ORDERS OF THE DAY

OPEN FOR BUSINESS ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 FAVORISANT UN ONTARIO

PROPICE AUX AFFAIRES

TICKET SPECULATION

AMENDMENT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LE TRAFIC DES BILLETS

DE SPECTACLE

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

CONSULTANTS

CONSULTANTS

CONSULTANTS

CONSULTANTS

CONSULTANTS

CONSULTANTS

AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

FIRE SAFETY

CONSULTANTS

HYDRO RATES

MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENT

GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY

FRENCH-LANGUAGE SERVICES

IMMIGRANT SERVICES

DEFERRED VOTES

OPEN FOR BUSINESS ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 FAVORISANT UN ONTARIO

PROPICE AUX AFFAIRES

CORRECTION OF RECORD

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

ANNE BRAYLEY

AND LESLIE FREEMAN

WILLOWDALE UNITED CHURCH

MARGARET WILLIAMS

AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY

HOLLAND MARSH SOUPFEST

BEACHES LIONS CLUB

ENERGY POLICIES

PENSION REFORM

GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY

VISITORS

PETITIONS

REPLACEMENT WORKERS

ONTARIO SOCIETY

FOR THE PREVENTION

OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

PENSION PLANS

DIAGNOSTIC SERVICES

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

DENTAL CARE

ONTARIO SOCIETY

FOR THE PREVENTION

OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

SERVICES DIAGNOSTIQUES

TAXATION

ONTARIO SOCIETY

FOR THE PREVENTION

OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

BRITISH HOME CHILDREN

VISITORS

PRIVATE MEMBERS’

PUBLIC BUSINESS

MANDATING SPRINKLERS

IN ALL ONTARIO RETIREMENT HOMES ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR L’INSTALLATION OBLIGATOIRE D’EXTINCTEURS

DANS TOUTES LES MAISONS

DE RETRAITE DE L’ONTARIO

PUBLIC SECTOR ACCOUNTABILITY

HOSPITAL FUNDING

MANDATING SPRINKLERS

IN ALL ONTARIO RETIREMENT HOMES ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR L’INSTALLATION OBLIGATOIRE D’EXTINCTEURS

DANS TOUTES LES MAISONS

DE RETRAITE DE L’ONTARIO

PUBLIC SECTOR ACCOUNTABILITY

HOSPITAL FUNDING

PUBLIC SECTOR ACCOUNTABILITY

HOSPITAL FUNDING

ORDERS OF THE DAY

GOOD GOVERNMENT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR LA SAINE

GESTION PUBLIQUE

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Good morning. Please remain standing for the Lord’s Prayer, followed by the non-denominational prayer.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

OPEN FOR BUSINESS ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 FAVORISANT UN ONTARIO

PROPICE AUX AFFAIRES

Resuming the debate adjourned on September 15, 2010, on the motion for third reading of Bill 68,

An Act to promote Ontario as open for business by amending or repealing certain Acts / Projet de loi 68, Loi favorisant un Ontario propice aux affaires en modifiant ou en abrogeant certaines lois.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Further debate?

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: I’m pleased to rise today to speak to Bill 68. As you know, this bill affects 10 different ministries. My colleagues have addressed some of the broader problems with this bill, so I want to focus on a particular concern of my caucus and of farmers across Ontario: the changes to the Livestock, Poultry and Honey Bee Protection Act.

The McGuinty government claims this legislation is about streamlining and cutting red tape, but they neglect to mention that it also weakens protection for farmers who lose livestock to predators. In fact, the government didn’t even mention these changes in the briefing package they distributed on this bill. I raised this concern in the spring during second reading, but when I look through the amended version of the bill, there are no changes to ensure that farmers will be protected and that farmers receive the compensation they need.

Currently, it is legislated by the Livestock, Poultry and Honey Bee Protection Act that farmers who lose livestock to predators such as wolves, coyotes or dogs must be compensated—I emphasize the word “must.” Although all compensation is delivered by municipalities, the compensation for livestock killed by wolves and coyotes is funded by the province. If this legislation is passed as written, the only compensation that will be guaranteed through legislation is for livestock killed by dogs, which is the part funded by municipalities.

The McGuinty government wants to move compensation for livestock killed by wolves and coyotes, as well as damage to honey bee hives by bears, into regulation. This means they can change or reduce the compensation at any time behind closed doors without any consultation. The McGuinty government says this was in response to requests from stakeholders, but what stakeholders had been asking for was not to have legislation weakened; it was to have the compensation

schedule updated. That isn’t in the legislation. That is in the regulation, and the government could have done that at any time. They don’t need to change the legislation to do that. As PCs, we are supportive of updating the compensation levels and we are supportive of expanding what is covered, but we cannot support changes that will weaken the protection for our farmers.

When the bill was introduced, it said that compensation would be provided through regulation, but there was no plan for what the new regulations would look like. In fact, during the AMO conference, the minister met with the mayors and boasted that the draft regulations were on the website. The mayors looked and couldn’t find them because they weren’t posted until a week after the AMO conference.

Now that the discussion paper has been posted, we can see there are a number of problems with the draft regulations. The proposed funding is a federal-provincial split, which likely means that the minister is planning to take the money out of the risk management programs, which provide direct support to farmers, to fund this compensation. My office emailed for clarification from the minister’s office on August 25, and we’re still waiting for a response. That is almost two months ago, and I have to admit that I’m starting to wonder if they’re ever going to answer that question.

In fact, going through the discussion paper, I discovered that they are proposing that “compensation would be allowable income in the program year in the AgriStability program but not in the reference period.” This means that the compensation paid to farmers for livestock that is lost to predators would take away from the amount of support that farmers will be eligible to receive in that year. The government is trying to have it both ways, because when they assess what the farmer has earned over the past five years to calculate any future support payments, the compensation won’t count as income.

At the end of the discussion paper is a description of the current program that includes a line that says, “Over the past seven years, claims under the program have increased from $755,000 in 2002-3 to $1.469 million in 2009-10.” If the McGuinty government’s goal isn’t to reduce costs, why is that line in the paper at all?

The truth is that the amount of livestock being lost to predators is increasing. A recent

article in the Kingston Whig-Standard says, “In Leeds–Grenville, the Ontario government paid $85,000 to farmers last year to compensate for lost livestock, mainly sheep and calves. That’s more than double what was doled out in 2007-8, when $40,000 was paid to area farmers, according to the agriculture ministry spokesman.” A councillor in Picton said the coyote infestation in their area is “almost at crisis level.” Farm Forum magazine reports “record numbers of marauding coyotes.”

Instead of dealing with the problem or ensuring that farmers are being properly compensated for their losses, this government is looking at ways it can cut its own costs by taking it out of the farmers’ pockets. I’ve already explained the impact on support payments, but reading the discussion paper, it seems there are other ways they are trying to put the cost back on to our farmers.

When a farmer loses livestock, they must call a valuer out to the farm to verify. That’s the same as our present system. However, when the valuer comes out to the farm under the new proposal, “If the evidence is inconclusive, but the probable cause of loss is from an eligible predator, the producer would receive one-half payment.” That means that unless the valuer actually sees the coyote attacking livestock when they go out to the farm, the farmer’s compensation could be cut by 50%. In addition, they can deny compensation if there are any steps the farmer could have taken to avoid the loss. With a government that’s trying to cut costs, that rule could easily be used against farmers.

Farmers are always better off raising livestock and sending it to market. The government is implying that farmers are intentionally encouraging predators to get compensation. We know that isn’t true. Farmers are taking all reasonable steps to avoid losses. Once again, the government is demonstrating how little they think of farmers.

They’ve also demonstrated that with the inclusion of a remedial course, and I find this most interesting. If farmers have multiple claims, the government proposes to force them to attend “a wildlife best management practices workshop” before they’re eligible for any further compensation. Once again, they seem to be thinking the worst of farmers. Instead of offering helpful information or dealing with predator problems, they are designing the rules to punish our farmers.

Another concern raised by farmers is that proposed regulations value livestock at time of death rather than at potential value. The current method accounts for future value. This means that a farmer who now loses a calf is only compensated for what he could get for that calf today, not the income he loses because he no longer has the ability to raise the calf and sell it full-grown. So we get the value of a newborn calf, because it was destroyed today, and the loss will be that calf for the whole season.

There was a recent

article in the Ottawa Sun on this issue, and the first line of the

article read, “City hall’s rural services department is bracing for some controversy over the province’s proposal.” The

article went on to quote a staff memo to the city’s agriculture and rural affairs committee that said the proposal is “a cause for concern” because “coyotes target calves over weaned cattle.” This is more proof that the McGuinty government just doesn’t understand or support our farmers.

We saw that when they cut support for deadstock removal with no plan in place. We saw that when they gave money to dead and retired farmers and then simply ignored beginning farmers who didn’t receive the support they needed. We saw that when they tried to ban good Ontario chocolate milk in 500-millilitre containers from our schools. We saw it when they transferred money out of the programs that provide direct suppport for farmers and used it for other priorities. We see it every day in their response to farmers asking for business risk management based on the cost of production.

Our farmers need a government that is fair, honest and trustworthy, not one that tries to sneak in cuts to compensation in an omnibus bill. I urge the government to remove this

section from the bill immediately and update the compensation schedule. If they want to make changes to the program to make it work better for farmers, they should introduce a new bill to amend the Livestock, Poultry and Honey Bee Protection Act to ensure that our farmers have the protection they deserve.

In wrapping up, I’d just like to point out, on business risk management, how little they think of farmers. One minute they have the business risk management program that includes the cost of production in the program. They have a three-year pilot program. Everybody—farmers, ministry, the minister herself—supported the program; it worked well. But they decided not to continue the pilot program. When all of a sudden the prices are going up, so it will not cost a lot, for public relations they put it back in for one year for grain and oilseeds.

The program is identical for all the other commodities. The government asked them to prepare the program. All the commodities prepared the program. But would the minister include them in this pilot extension? No. She will do nothing for those. She’s just going to carry that other program on for another year—I believe that would be after the next election—and I guess we can assume that will be the end of the program, because that was the only reason it was extended.

Mr. Speaker, thank you very much for allowing me a few moments to speak to the bill. I want to tell you that the part that deals with agriculture in the Open for Business Act is not going to open agriculture for business in Ontario. In fact, it’s going to help close the door on a lot of livestock producers who are no longer going to get paid for predator damage—predator damage caused by the predators that the government is responsible for. I think the government should be ashamed of themselves for doing that.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further debate?

Mr. Peter Kormos: First, I want to apologize. I very much want to apologize in advance for anything I say this morning that might be rude or inappropriate, and I want to withdraw in advance anything I say that’s unparliamentary.

I want to acknowledge that I’m wont, from time to time, to meander. I consider it a function of age. Quite frankly, any effort on people’s parts to address that is an insult to me as a middle-aged male who is prone to meandering. So I hope we have that clearly on the record now, and that perhaps may moderate some of the silly points of order that members of the government, who are otherwise unable to get on the record, are inclined to make from time to time. It’s perhaps the only way they have of making their presence here known.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: You can take all the time. Peter, take it all.

Mr. Peter Kormos: And my colleague from Timmins–James Bay will be speaking to this.

This bill has been time-allocated. You understand that, don’t you? The government put the boots to parliamentary process. It imposed the guillotine motion. A bill this extensive, and one that impacts on, as I’m going to address especially, workers’ rights in this province, and especially low-paid workers and vulnerable workers—this government is disinclined to want to have this kind of bill debated, and for reasons that are pretty clear, I think, to most Ontarians.

Indeed, I would say to the some 24% of Ontarians who don’t say that they would like to see another party in power—because, you see, 76% of Ontarians do say it. You recall the poll. Some 76% of Ontarians do say that they want to see another party in power, and 86% of Ontarians, in the same poll, published September 28, 2010 in the Toronto Star, say it’s harder now to make ends meet than it was two years ago.

New Democrats will be voting against Bill 68, and let me make it very, very clear that the provisions in Bill 68, especially those provisions contained in

schedule 9 of Bill 68—and if I can help my friends across the road who may not have ventured that far into the bill,

schedule 9 begins at page 133 of the bill, as printed for third reading.

It’s incredible that this government, with its pathetic record when it comes to protecting workers in this province, would now insist that before workers can avail themselves of any rights under the Employment Standards Act, they first have to address their concerns to their employer, to the bad boss, in the first place. What were these people thinking?

Surely the Minister of Labour, at some point after the bill was printed for first reading, or maybe after second reading—and now that the bill is printed for third reading, he must be giving his head one of those smacks and asking how oblivious he, the Minister of Labour, could have been, should have been, must have been to have required vulnerable employees who are being either ripped off by bad bosses, mistreated by bad bosses, exposed to dangerous work situations by bad bosses or simply abused and misused by bad bosses—exploited by any boss, for that matter—to go to their boss first with their complaint.

Well, the reason they have a complaint is because that boss is, prima facie, a bad boss.

What do you think happens to vulnerable workers who raise employment standards issues with a bad boss? They don’t last very long at those jobs. They get intimidated. They get beat up on. They get bullied. They get smacked around, figuratively and perhaps even literally. So New Democrats are not going to have any role whatsoever to play in participation with any effort—and this is an extreme effort—to diminish workers’ rights in the workplace.

I got stuck. It took me a while to get to page 134 of the bill because I was stuck at the title of the bill:

An Act to promote Ontario as open for business. Open for business? Down where I come from, where John Deere just shut down—900 jobs; 100-year-old company in the city of Welland; industrial jobs, manufacturing jobs, wealth-creation jobs, value-added jobs. Wealth doesn’t come from casinos. Wealth sure as hell doesn’t come from high-priced consultants who are ripping off the taxpayer under the umbrella of this Liberal government as they peddle hospitals’ favours to ministers and ministerial staff. Wealth comes from working women and men who make things. Open for business? Not where I come from.

God bless Lakeside Steel manufacturing a little bit of pipe, because Lord knows, John Deere is gone, Union Carbide is gone, Atlas Steel is gone, Welland Tube is gone. The largest single employer in the city of Welland right now is a call centre, the Canadian Tire Acceptance centre. Quite frankly—I never thought I’d say this—thank goodness we have them. It’s not a unionized workplace; workers are not even covered by workers’ compensation, by WSIB. Did you know that, Speaker? These are workers who, in a call centre, suffer a hugely inappropriate level of things like repetitive stress injuries because they’re working at desks and they’re doing handsets and they’re doing keyboarding.

Let me tell you what happens to a 50-year-old woman, because more likely than not it’s a woman working in this workplace, who can no longer work because her wrists are gone—she’s got carpal tunnel—when she doesn’t have workers’ compensation coverage. She’s done. She’s done like dinner. She has been done in. Oh, she could sue but that’s highly unlikely, because when she’s lost her job because she can’t work at it anymore—she doesn’t have access to workers’ compensation, you see, because this government denies those workers workers’ compensation coverage.

She can sue if she can put together a hundred grand or so for the high-priced law firm that would be necessary to sue somebody like Canadian Tire Acceptance, because they’ve got deep pockets and they’ll resist any lawsuit. I’m not aware of any lawsuit ever having been filed against them by an injured worker. That’s what happens, and this government is oblivious to those working women and men. This government could care less about them.

This government has a disgusting track record when it comes to workers in the province of Ontario. It has an even more disgusting record when it comes to job losses in the province of Ontario: 300,000 jobs lost in the last—what?—three and a half, four years. And these aren’t piddling jobs; these aren’t double-down-sandwich, Kentucky-Fried-Chicken service jobs, and nothing wrong with the women and men who work in that industry; they work hard for very, very little wages.

Three hundred thousand good jobs, mostly unionized jobs, jobs with good wages, good salaries, good pensions, good health packages—those are the kinds of jobs that people work at to send their kids to college and university, because you don’t send your kids to college and university when you work at a Tim Hortons, do you, Speaker? It simply doesn’t happen.

Open for business? This government has somehow suggested it hired that high-priced team, that high-priced pair, that high-priced duo, Florida and Martin, from the University of Toronto—Lord knows how many tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars they paid them for this sage advice. Remember the advice of Florida and Martin if you lost your job? Open an art gallery or maybe a hairdressing salon. Give me a break. Don’t be silly. What a stupid comment made by a couple of boneheaded academic types who are frauds.

Officer Bubbles has more sense than they do, and he has a hard time passing anybody’s threshold of intelligence or common sense. You lose your job? Open an art gallery. Give me a break. Tell a guy who has been a welder at John Deere for 35 years who loses his job—you see, there was a time down in Niagara when, if you lost your job, you might be able to go work for Casino Niagara. The problem is, Casino Niagara is laying people off now and they’re going to be laying more off as this government embarks and follows through on its incredibly dumb and dumber proposition of Internet gambling.

No jobs in Internet gambling; all there is is grief and loss.

There was a time when, if you lost your factory job down in Welland, you could go to Niagara College and train as a blackjack dealer. You could train as a slot machine technician and get a job at the casino or at the slots down in Fort Erie. You can’t do it anymore, because they’re laying people off. Don’t you get it? So what do you tell the guy, the 30-year welder from John Deere who just lost his job?

The timing is just perfect, because his kids are just about university or college age or just about getting-ready-to-get-married age and need a little boosting hand from their folks—and their folks are expected to be able to give them a little bit of a boost. What are you going to do—put him in a tutu and send him down the road here to dance the ballet with Karen Kain? I don’t think so.

This government isn’t open for business. This government has shut down business: business after business after business, and job after job after job.

New Democrats will be voting against this legislation. It’s bad policy. It’s legislation that attacks working women and men, and when you attack working women and men that means you attack their kids and their parents and their neighbours too, and their communities.

I’ve got a real hard time—and again, here I am. I’ve got but a minute left because the government imposed its guillotine motion. The stormtroopers marched in and padlocked the doors to free speech on this one, as they have on a whole lot of other bills over the course of the last seven years, let me tell you. The government has no interest in seeing this bill debated because the government has no interest in being disclosed as it is: as an anti-worker government and an anti-wealth creation government.

Not anti-wealth; anti-wealth creation, because oh yes, if you’re a high-priced hospital CEO making $500,000, $600,000 or $700,000 a year, or if you’re a high-priced, Liberally-connected—Liberal-connected—consultant making a quarter of a million bucks a year or more, charging—what?—$3,000 for junkets to Singapore—what that has to do with hospital lobbying beats me. It may have more to do with some custom-fitted suits, I suspect.

That kind of wealth, this government endorses. It supports it. It cultivates it, nurtures it. But this government attacks working women and men, attacks retirees, attacks the poor, attacks the unemployed, attacks young people trying to further their education at colleges and universities.

We say no to this bad legislation.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further debate?

Seeing none, pursuant to the order of the House dated June 2, 2010, I’m now required to put the question. Mr. Fonseca has moved third reading of Bill 68,

An Act to promote Ontario as open for business by amending or repealing certain Acts. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour will please say “aye.”

All those opposed will please say “nay.”

In my opinion, the ayes have it.

We’ll defer this vote until deferred votes after question period.

Third reading vote deferred.

TICKET SPECULATION

AMENDMENT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LE TRAFIC DES BILLETS

DE SPECTACLE

Mr. Bentley moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 172,

An Act to amend the Ticket Speculation Act / Projet de loi 172, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur le trafic des billets de spectacle.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Debate?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: I’m very pleased to rise in the House today to start debate on second reading of Bill 172, the Ticket Speculation Amendment Act.

The House will recall that when we introduced this legislation, we did so to make sure that consumers were treated fairly. That’s really what is at the heart of this very streamlined, simple piece of legislation: We want to ensure that consumers are treated, in all respects, fairly. Imagine the situation, if you are a parent, a mom or dad, and there is a great performer who’s coming to town, and your kids want tickets. Your kids are absolutely determined to get tickets to the performance. It’s what they’ve always dreamed of, and so you watch to find out when the tickets go on sale.

You plan, you rearrange your day and you reschedule. At the very moment the tickets go on sale, you get online or you get on the phone, and there are no tickets. You’re referred somewhere else. Instead of a $100 ticket, you’ve got a $300 ticket. Then what do you do? Do you disappoint forever your son or your daughter? Or if it’s the son or the daughter, do you disappoint your mother or father? Or do you invest all that extra money for those tickets that are the most important thing in the child’s life at the moment?

Then you find out—guess what? The place you were referred to to buy the higher-priced tickets happens to be commercially connected to the original seller. They had some sort of arrangement so that you were instantly referred from the first or primary seller to the secondary seller to buy tickets at an inflated price over the face value. That’s at the heart of the upset of many Ontario consumers.

And it started happening with great regularity. You’d hear regularly about issues which were presented to consumers where they tried to get tickets—they did everything they could to get them online or on the phone—and boom, all the tickets were gone. You’d think to yourself, how could it possibly be that every single ticket in that 5,000-person, 10,000-person, 20,000-person stadium was all of a sudden gone at the regular price, and the only place you can get tickets is at the higher, inflated price? There was just something about that that didn’t seem right.

People stood up and said, “Gee, that’s not right.” Then when they found out that the place they were referred to to buy these inflated-price tickets happened to be connected to the original seller, people got a little upset. And they should. Because at the end of the day, however you describe it in legal language, it isn’t fair.

If you want to sell a ticket at a hundred bucks, then people should have a reasonable chance of getting a $100 ticket. If you want to sell it at $300, sell it at $300. Tell everybody it’s going to be 300 bucks. If you want to sell it at a thousand, sell it at a thousand. Tell everybody the ticket price is going to be a thousand bucks. But don’t tell them you’re selling a ticket at 100 bucks and give them no chance to get a $100 ticket and send them to a seller who’s going to sell it at 300 bucks—who happens to be related to the $100 seller. That’s just not right.

You say: Why has this suddenly come to light in the last number of years? The Ticket Speculation Act has been around forever—well, not quite forever, but just about. Of course, now we have phone banks, we have Internet sales, we have the ability to move transactions in a split second—anywhere in the world. So the advent of technology and the opportunity that some have identified to maximize their own profits have given rise to an unfairness.

At the end of the day, that really is what this legislation is all about. It’s not the longest bill you’ll ever see in the world. It’s not the most complicated bill you’ll ever see in the world. But it really is designed to address a rather simple proposition: that primary and secondary sellers shouldn’t be commercially related when they’re selling the same set of tickets. It’s simple. That, at the end of the day, is really what this piece of legislation is all about.

You will recall that a little over a year ago, other jurisdictions jumped up and started doing the same thing. We had in Ontario a Leonard Cohen concert which caused great consternation. In the United States, it was the Boss who was upset about tickets to his concert, and other performers started to—well, you see, the problem is that performers started to hear from the customer. Customers would say that they’re fans. They’re not customers; they’re the fans who say, “Gosh, you know, it’s really disappointing. I tried to come and see you and that $100 ticket became $300 before you could pronounce your name.

It’s just not right.” They started getting upset and let governments throughout North America know. It just wasn’t fair.

So we introduced this piece of legislation. We’ve had the benefit, over the last year, of making sure that the transactions this legislation will catch are the transactions we want to catch, not every transaction—not a movement between a primary and secondary seller where nobody’s profiting, where there’s no increased profit. We want to make sure that the transactions that are being caught—given technology, the quick movement and the relationships—are exactly the ones that we want. We’ve had that year since it was introduced to make sure we can work through some of the issues that were brought to our attention.

We will be, if this bill is passed in second reading and goes on to committee, introducing some amendments just to fine-tune a few of the provisions and to make sure that, for example, a movement of tickets from a primary to a secondary seller, where it’s for the convenience of the customer and not for profit, is not going to be caught by this particular piece of legislation.

Hon. Gerry Phillips: It’s reasonable.

Hon. Christopher Bentley: That’s a reasonable change, a reasonable amendment.

Now, as I say, ticket scalping has been illegal in Ontario for some period of time, but when you first started seeing the Internet introduced, in about 1996 or so in terms of selling, it really became a big issue because it shrinks the time where tickets can be transferred from a primary to a secondary seller. It makes it much more commercially attractive to have secondary sellers. Then, of course, as in all things where there is a bit of profit at the end of the day, a behaviour springs up that might not be illegal but that might strike people as, “Gosh, it’s not really fair.” That’s what we’ve got here.

The other challenge, of course, with legislation that has been around for a while is that the penalties that exist for those who break its provisions don’t always keep pace with the value of the tickets or the commercial enterprise. You don’t want a breach of the law to be little more than a licence, so you have to update penalties. You have to make sure that they are consistent with the nature of the profit or the transgression that’s at issue.

What we’ve done in this particular piece of legislation is propose the updating of penalties so that there will be a $5,000 penalty per transaction for an individual and $50,000 for a corporation. That starts to add up pretty quickly, and takes the profit out of this particular enterprise.

Ultimately, what this legislation would do: It’s going to help ensure fair access to tickets for consumers by preventing related primary and secondary ticket sellers—including brokers, including agents—from profiting from secondary sales to the same event.

It will make it illegal for a primary seller to limit the number of tickets made available to the public and then divert tickets to the secondary seller to buy the same ticket at a much-inflated price—you know that situation where you’ve got 5,000 tickets available and you keep 500 at the face price and slide over the other 4,500 to the secondary seller, who can then greatly sell them at an increased price, when the two were related; the primary and the secondary are related.

It will reassure Ontarians that when they’re buying tickets online—and you don’t always know who you’re dealing with when you’re online; there’s a lot online these days—the tickets they’re buying are not just the profit end point for some corporate enterprise.

As I say, we spent some time in identifying different issues that were brought to our attention about the multiple transactions that could be caught by this legislation. In a lot of them, we said, “Well, yeah, it’s supposed to be caught.” That’s what we’re here to do. We’re here to change what was becoming the practice.

In fact, to many people—I don’t know empirically—it didn’t seem to be an exception anymore, when those tickets sort of disappeared as soon as you called or went online, and turned up somewhere else at an inflated price. It didn’t seem to be the exception. In fact, it seemed to be the norm. In any economic period, people want to be treated fairly. When the economy is experiencing some worldwide challenges, everybody’s watching it a little closer. Fairness: That’s what this is about.

More transparency: We were debating earlier today the Open for Business bill. Part of being open for business is being transparent in transactions, and there is an element of that in this particular piece of legislation. Let’s be a little more transparent, make sure we’re a little more transparent in the way the tickets are being offered for sale to the people of Ontario. That’s all. They just want to be treated fairly.

If somebody wants to pay a hundred bucks for a particular performer at a concert, and that’s the face price, they’ll pay a hundred bucks. Want to pay $200? They’ll pay $200. What to pay $300? They’ll pay $300. Some will pay more. But they just want a little bit of access, fair access.

Now, we’re going to be listening very carefully to the debate and we’ll be looking for opportunities to make sure that transactions aren’t identified that you don’t want to catch. I have no doubt that some will encourage us not to proceed with this piece of legislation. They’ll say that commercial enterprise should be left on its own; the government shouldn’t be in the business. Some might tell us that government should not be in the business of ticket sales. I say, we don’t want to be in the business of ticket sales, but we are in the business of fairness.

When commercial enterprises have a bit of a history of not doing what many people think is the fair thing to do, governments sometimes have to step in. It’s not that we want to; we’ve got lots of issues. We’re working very hard to create a stronger economy, working very hard to deal with the challenges of an economic worldwide recession, working very hard to make sure that the jobs are located here in the province of Ontario as opposed to somewhere else. We’ve taken big, bold steps in terms of an economic plan, opening up the province, making sure it’s completely open for business, making sure our foundation is right.

But you know, fairness is part of a very strong society, and although this is not of the same magnitude of many of those other issues—of course not—it does strike that chord of fairness. And that’s just, at the end of the day, what people ask us to do.

I’m looking forward, as I say, to the debate. I’m looking forward to the participation of members of the House. I’m looking forward to suggestions. To those who would tell us not to proceed with this piece of legislation, I say no. The case for fairness has been sufficiently and properly and appropriately made that we need to move on this. There may be others who say, “Oh, gosh, you need to do a lot more.” There may be others who say that we need to go much further. In all things, it’s a question of balance. It’s a question of finding the appropriate degree of intervention, measured by the nature of the activity at issue.

We’ll listen very carefully to make sure that we have focused this legislation, directed it to the very issue. It’s not a complete reworking of all commercial enterprise. We don’t want to do that. It’s not an attempt to deal with every issue under the sun. We couldn’t do that in the age of the Internet.

It’s making sure that, to the extent that we’re able within the province of Ontario, we support fairness, support that chord that runs through our society of fair dealing, support an appropriate relationship between the seller and the consumers—who are usually the fans or parents of, or sons or daughters of—and that we have made sure that at its heart, the primary seller of a ticket can’t be the secondary seller of the ticket to the same event when that secondary sale profits from the movement of tickets over, benefits from a heightened and increased price in the movement of tickets over. It’s as simple as that.

It really is as simple as that in the very complicated Internet age.

With that, I thank the members of the House. I look forward to the debate, the comments and the suggestions for improvement.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Questions or comments?

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: The diversion has begun. Of course, the government has been reeling in the last couple of days with the Auditor General’s report, and they’ve reached into their—

Interjection.

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: Exactly. They’ve reached into their little bag of tricks and they’ve come up with a bill that was introduced on April 29, 2009. Now we’re having leadoff speeches some 14 months later—I would say to the table, I can speak a long time but I should have a clock on me—and this is taking place for over 14 months.

During those 14 months, of course, the organizations that are involved in this process have been talking to the government. They have been talking to us as well. They have explained that this bill will do absolutely nothing to solve the problems that the Attorney General has outlined and, in fact, will insert itself into the business of companies carrying on legitimate businesses in Ontario and will have no effect on the consumer.

Why they are proceeding with this bill as it was written, with some flaws, in 2009—it hasn’t been changed. Surely the government has learned something about this business over the last 14 or 16 months. None of that is reflected in the bill as it’s introduced today.

This bill was so important to the government that it carried it over when the House prorogued, and still the bill comes back in its same form. It’s too bad that this bill, which could be important to the people of Ontario, hasn’t been written in a form that would make it helpful to the people of Ontario.

The only reason it’s being introduced today is that it is seen as consumerism, as a popular bill. The government is very hopeful that it will take the minds of the public off the Auditor General’s report, one that, of course, held the government up to a good deal of ridicule when they repeated their mistakes of a year ago with eHealth. Exactly the same thing is happening today in eHealth.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions or comments?

Mr. Peter Kormos: I’ll be beginning my one-hour lead on this in due course, perhaps this morning or perhaps the next time it’s called. But then again, I’m going to be an old man by the next time it’s called, because after all, this bill has been on the order paper for a year and a half—18 months. We served first reading on April 29, 2009. Good God. I still had colour in my hair in 2009. My goodness, this bill has been gathering dust. It’s not destined to be called again next week, for instance, because we’re nowhere near finishing the leads on second reading debate this morning.

But I do find some delight in the Attorney General’s references to there being a lot online nowadays. That will allow me, of course, to talk about this government’s intention to have a state-operated, state-sanctioned, state-approved Internet gambling system here in the province of Ontario so that 13-year-old kids can be blowing mommy and daddy’s credit cards while they’re in their bedrooms gambling on the Internet, getting addicted.

I do take some great delight in the Attorney General referencing fairness so much, because that will give me an opportunity to talk about so many things that this government has been doing to people that are oh, so unfair.

But I also make note of this: Here we have a bill that is flimsy. You could read a newspaper through this bill. It’s not a weighty bill like this one; it’s a flimsy bill. When the Ministry of the Attorney General has weighty bills, why, it’s the parliamentary assistant who carries them in this chamber, but when we’ve got a lightweight bill, it’s the Attorney General who carries it. With the heavy bills, he needs the heavy lifting of Mr. Zimmer. With this one, clearly he doesn’t.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions and comments?

Mr. Phil McNeely: I’m pleased to rise in my place today to speak to

An Act to amend the Ticket Speculation Act.

As the Attorney General so clearly pointed out, a lot of groups across the country and in the US have been jobbing the system. They’re in a position of a monopoly on the tickets. It’s easy with the new means of getting ticket sales out there, with the Internet etc., that they can take people, and take people very quickly and very often, and keep moving names around.

I think this bill—someone says there’s not very much in it. Of course there’s not very much in it; it’s an amendment that’s going to do what Ontario should do to protect people who want to have a fair deal, not only have a few tickets for sale and ship them all out on events where they know it’s going to be a sell-out and have somebody reap huge profits. That is not the way we should act in business. I’m glad to see that the fines are going up: $5,000 for an individual, $50,000 if the person is a corporation—a fine of not more than $50,000.

Those are the types of fines that will make sure we have honest business and that people in a monopoly position do not steal from fans who want to go to a certain show, that we control this business. It’s not the first time; other provinces and other states have been bringing in this legislation. So this will clean up the act. This will make sure that it’s fair for people, and I certainly applaud the Attorney General for bringing this in.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions and comments?

Mr. Frank Klees: I listened very carefully to the Attorney General this morning as he so eloquently spoke to this bill. As my colleagues have said, it has been gathering dust for the last year and a half. I find it disconcerting that the Attorney General would want to be party to wasting our time here this morning discussing this bill when we all have on our desk this morning the special report from the office of the Auditor General in Ontario on consultant use in selected health organizations.

As we read this report, we see that literally multimillions and billions of dollars are being wasted by hospitals, by LHINs, by the Ministry of Health. As the Attorney General, I would have thought that he would want to use every available moment in this Legislature to condemn what is going on in the health care corridors of this province, not to talk about whether or not someone is selling a ticket to a ball game for another $20 or $30 or $100 more than the face value. Let’s talk about where the real scandals are in the halls of this government.

That should be the mission of the Attorney General, not to come here and so eloquently address people who are perhaps, yes, scamming someone for $100. Let’s talk about the people who are scamming the people of Ontario for multi-millions under the endorsement of his government. Let’s get the priorities of this government straight. I call on the Attorney General to assume his responsibility to oversee how government conducts its business in this province.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): The Attorney General has two minutes for the response.

Hon. Christopher Bentley: I’d like to thank the members for Newmarket–Aurora, Ottawa–Orléans, Welland and Halton for their comments and contributions. I too am looking forward to the debate on the legislation that was introduced yesterday by my colleague the Minister of Health to end the practice, I might say, that was in existence through the government of which my colleague from Newmarket–Aurora was part, and the government before that, and before that, and before that.

It’s amazing how often issues have been around for decades, where other parties had the ability to change a practice they knew was going on and they sat and did nothing. I guess the question is this: Did they know what was going on; did they not know what was going on—in which case you’ve got to question what the heck they were doing—or did they know what was going on and decide that it was okay? They’ll have the opportunity to participate in the debate on that legislation.

But I want to tell you that I think people should be treated fairly in all their commercial dealings. I’m looking forward to the contributions of the parties opposite, both the official opposition and the third party. Really, I’m looking forward to whether they’re going to support the principle of fairness or not. That’s what consumers want. If they’ve got some suggestions to make it stronger, I’d love to hear them. If they’ve got some suggestions to protect the consumer, I’d love to hear them. If they’ve got some ways to protect the consumer who doesn’t want to get fleeced, I’d love to hear them.

But the stall, the delay, the prevarication that we hear coming forward so far, “Oh, it’s not going to protect anybody,” is the old deflect. No, we proceed.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further debate?

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: According to the Attorney General, apparently John A. Macdonald should have changed this regulation to protect consumers against the—but I suppose John A. Macdonald was too busy developing his chain of restaurants to take on that particular task.

This bill, as was pointed out, was introduced on April 29, 2009, some 18 months ago, and has sat gathering dust, and is brought up today primarily because this government is in trouble. It is in trouble with its eHealth 201; we had eHealth 101 last year. We called for public inquiries into how this happened, how a billion dollars in taxpayers’ money could disappear into a black hole of consultants, many of them with Liberal-friendly ties. We asked: How can this happen? We wanted a public inquiry into that. “No, no, no,” the government said. The Premier apologized and said, “We have to do better.”

And what has happened in the year and a half since this bill was introduced? Apparently, the consultants changed their business cards, they changed the letterhead and they continued on in their consulting business, continued on with consulting with LHINs, consulting with the Ministry of Health. They continued on consulting with the hospitals so that hospitals, public agencies, were hiring consultants to represent them when dealing with the government, not providing any front-line health services. It just continued on.

If we had had a public inquiry back originally when we were calling for one, June 2009, perhaps a system would have been developed that would have prevented this from happening again—more taxpayer dollars wasted in a sensitive industry like health when government can’t find the money to help individual Ontarians. They can’t find the money to take action on health issues in Ontario, but they can find the money—hundreds of millions of dollars—to send consultants to Hong Kong, pay them while they’re on vacation and pay them for Christmas parties and booze. Something is tragically wrong in the province of Ontario.

Of course, the government wants to divert the public’s attention from these disasters that are happening all around us, so they bring in this act, the act that they want to debate today, Bill 172. As was pointed out by the member from Welland–Thorold, this bill that’s being debated this morning is not on the order paper for next week. That in itself should tell the third estate and the fourth estate that the bill is a diversion.

There’s no seriousness on the government’s behalf to actually debate this bill. They know that this bill will not do one thing, not one thing, to fix the system of ticketing in Ontario. They know how that system works. They know why popular venues sell out almost immediately—within 30 seconds sometimes. They also know that if someone goes online to buy a ticket to the Toronto Maple Leafs when they are playing the Los Angeles Kings, perhaps, quite often they can buy those tickets at much less than face value. They know that in many venues that don’t sell out, in Toronto or anywhere else in Ontario, many of the tickets are sold below face value. They know that’s happening.

Last year the Premier said, regarding eHealth, that we had to do better. I don’t think bringing this bill back after 18 months of consultations—forced consultations, in many cases—is doing better. But this is the bill that we’re going to debate today, and believe it or not, I do intend to talk about the bill.

One of the things that—

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: This other stuff is more important.

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: The other stuff is more important, but we should say a few words about the bill in the debate before the Speaker calls me to order in that area.

One of the best articles that I’ve read on this issue was printed in the National Post. It was printed a year and a half ago, on Tuesday, May 5, 2009. I remember that this bill was introduced on April 29, 2009, so it was written from that perspective, a few days after it was introduced. It was written by Terence Corcoran, who is with the National Post. In my opinion, he’s a really great writer, able to capsulize and identify issues very succinctly.

He starts out by saying, “Too little attention was paid last week as Ontario’s Attorney General did what governments do best: Pander to public perception”—a very powerful way to start an article. He also correctly used a colon in that sentence. It’s something that we don’t see an awful lot in our newspapers anymore: proper punctuation. My hat’s off to Mr.

Corcoran, who uses it correctly—“Seems like no issue is too small and no public misconception so stupid or wrong that it cannot be answered with legislation or regulation.” He capsulizes the exact problem: that Premier Dad is coming to the rescue, but to no avail. Nothing is too small that it can’t be fixed with regulation or legislation.

“And so Attorney General Chris Bentley, answering the call of the blogosphere, last Wednesday introduced Bill 172,

An Act to amend the Ticket Speculation Act. The bill, aimed at Ticketmaster, is designed to fix a perceived problem that doesn’t exist based on an analysis that is flawed with a law that doesn’t do anything to fix the perception or respond to the flawed analysis. In government and politics, that’s called productive work.”

I told you this guy was a good writer. So far, in two paragraphs, he has basically said it all.

“The perception is that Ticketmaster, an agency hired by rock groups, sports teams and others to handle ticket sales, is taking preferential advantage of its position and transferring tickets to its secondary market subsidiary, TicketsNow, where they are marked up to sky-high prices.” That’s the perception.

“The fact that there is no evidence that Ticketmaster favours its TicketsNow subsidiary is more or less acknowledged right in the government’s Bill 172 press release. ‘The new provisions respond to public concern that companies may make tickets available for sale to the same events on the primary market and then on the secondary market, at a much higher price.’”

In Ticketmaster’s press release on the subject, they specifically say that they do not transfer tickets from Ticketmaster to TicketsNow. In introducing this bill, I suppose the government is calling the company untruthful, if I can use that word. The fact that there’s no evidence that Ticketmaster favours its TicketsNow subsidiary is more or less acknowledged right in the government’s press release.

“Public concern about something is not a basis for legislation, especially when the legislation does nothing to alleviate the concern and may, in the end, make the local concert/sports events ticket-pricing situation worse.” This legislation could make the situation worse. “The new law also undermines competition in the ticket-selling business. Why would the government want to do that?” Why would the government want to undermine the competitive situation that exists in the market today?

He continues: “The bill, in two pages, amends existing Ontario law that supposedly bans scalping in event tickets. Specifically, it would prohibit a primary seller (i.e. Ticketmaster) from dealing in the same tickets as a secondary seller (i.e. TicketsNow),” its subsidiary. “The minister doesn’t explain what the effect is of this change in the law, except to claim that it will return ‘fairness’ to the ticket market and ‘protect consumers.’

“The government by now knows that the public perception is wrong. Or if it has doubts, it also knows that the federal Competition Bureau is investigating this public perception. The least Mr. Bentley could do is wait for the Competition Bureau to report.”

The Competition Bureau has reported, and it finds nothing wrong with the existing system. The Competition Bureau, of course, is another branch of government, and it finds nothing wrong.

“The most famous example of alleged ticket manipulation is a Bruce Springsteen concert in New Jersey, where TicketsNow appeared to have tickets even before they were available at Ticketmaster. Not only is it the most famous example, it is the only example, and one which Ticketmaster says was due to a local computer malfunction. If Ticketmaster had prematurely sold Springsteen tickets via TicketsNow, it would have been in breach of its contract with the Springsteen promoters.” That’s something that no one in the ticket distribution business would want to do. That could destroy their business overnight, and they are market leaders in that area.

“It is now conventional wisdom in the blog world, on radio call-in shows and in the newsrooms of the Toronto Star and the CBC that Ticketmaster scalps its own products to TicketsNow. Ticketmaster’s legal counsel, Joe Freeman, calls it an ‘urban myth.’ Still, on CBC Radio’s As It Happens last week”—this would be in May 2009—“host Carol Off belligerently went after Mr. Freeman for having the temerity to deny Ticketmaster’s complicity in the ticket-scalping market.” Urban myths: They’re hard to do away with.

“The concert and sport-event ticket business is becoming increasingly complicated and sophisticated, thanks to the Internet. Tickets for everything can be found with a simple Google search and a willingness to pay prices well above the official price.

“In Toronto, primary sellers include Ticketmaster, the Toronto Blue Jays, the Mirvish theatre group and others. Secondary players include StubHub, TicketNorth, TicketLiquidator, Ticket Express, GoTickets and others. Ticketmaster is the only primary seller that owns a secondary seller. The Ontario legislation effectively singles out Ticketmaster and would prevent it from operating in the secondary market, where it essentially acts as an Internet-based broker between buyers and sellers. The real money is made by the scalpers and traders. TicketsNow collects a fee on transactions, but does not own or control any tickets.”

Understand what he’s saying: I have a ticket that I find that I can no longer use. I put it on TicketsNow. TicketsNow provides the sales organization to find another buyer. The other buyer buys the ticket off the Internet. TicketsNow guarantees that that is, indeed, a legitimate ticket to the event that the buyer expects to attend. You can imagine the fraud that takes place on the Internet: people buying tickets that don’t exist; people buying tickets that have no legitimacy. They show up at the gate—“Sorry, that ticket’s no good.” There’s all kinds of money that disappears by the illegitimate sale of tickets.

TicketsNow guarantees that you’re buying a legitimate ticket. That’s their business, and they take a percentage of that. They don’t own tickets themselves. So this whole bill is badly, badly flawed in that area.

The Attorney General—he refers to “Mr. Bentley,” if I can use that name. I’m reading; I’m not referring to the member: “Mr. Bentley apparently doesn’t believe Ticketmaster. Otherwise, why would he bring in a law that effectively bars Ticketmaster from competing in the secondary market? No doubt the owners of StubHub and scores of other Internet-based scalping agencies are going to be happy.”

Most of these agencies that sell tickets are indeed selling them above face value, and under this law that’s illegal. But this government doesn’t seem to have a lot of problems dealing with companies that do illegal things, or agencies or, indeed, people who do illegal things in Ontario. I give you the illegal tobacco business in Ontario, where close to 50%, if not in excess of 50%, of the tobacco that’s sold in Ontario is of an illegal nature. We do not collect taxes on it. There’s probably $1.5 billion from all levels of government going down the drain when we are not collecting that money.

Those cigarettes are being sold illegally across Ontario. Grade 8 students can find a van to buy cigarettes out of, but apparently the government can’t find the van to charge those people with the illegal sale of cigarettes. The illegal cigarettes come out of known locations, the Six Nations reserve, for one. They come out in tractor-trailers. The government knows which road they’re coming out on, but they don’t seem to be able to catch those people coming out with a tractor-trailer full of illegal cigarettes. I guess it’s because they just don’t care.

And here we are scalping tickets across the Internet, knowing buyer and knowing seller. It’s illegal, but the government just doesn’t care.

“All of this is taking place under an existing law that makes scalping illegal. The amendment, in other words, will prevent Ticketmaster from engaging in an activity that the law already officially prohibits but does not stop. It’s tough to explain, but it’s what people want, the minister says. ‘Ontarians have spoken out clearly, resoundingly and unequivocally against companies benefiting from the primary and secondary markets.’”

Mr. Corcoran concludes his

article by saying, “I give up.”

Well, we on this side of the House are not going to give up. We are going to continue the good fight. We are going to continue to bring to light the misconceptions, the way in which this government operates, why they’re bringing in this diversionary bill this week: to try and cover up the massive waste of money that we’ve seen in eHealth 201, the next stage of the eHealth saga; the sequel. Even the government has sequels to its scandals. I think when a government has sequels to its scandals, it’s no wonder 76% of Ontarians think that it’s time for a change.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): It being just about 10:15 of the clock, this House stands in recess until 10:30, at which time we’ll have question period.

The House recessed from 1016 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: I would like to welcome in the east gallery two of my staff today: Elaine Palmateer, my executive assistant, and my brand new staff of about two months, Megan Forest. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mrs. Julia Munro: I’m pleased to introduce on behalf of page Emmett Bisbee his mother, Debbie Bisbee, sister Avery Bisbee and grandparents Grahame Bennett, Joan Bisbee and Bob Bisbee in the members’ gallery.

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: I have the pleasure of introducing three guests of mine from Simcoe county: Lacey Robson, who’s shadowing me today, from Orillia; and Jane Binns and Louise Pope, all here in the members’ gallery.

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: I would like to introduce Darryl Demille from my riding. I wanted to introduce him to the Premier, but the Premier is not here again.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): We welcome the guests, but I do remind the honourable member about making references to absences.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Wow, that didn’t take long. We haven’t even started question period.

I remind the honourable members of the practice within this chamber. None of us know why a member may not be here, and we do not make references to members’ attendance.

Further introductions?

We have with us in the Speaker’s gallery the German-Canadian Parliamentary Friendship Group from the German Bundestag, led by Mr. Klaus-Peter Flosbach. They are accompanied by the consul general of the Federal Republic of Germany in Toronto, Mrs. Sabine Sparwasser. Please join me in welcoming our guests to the Legislature today. Welcome.

ORAL QUESTIONS

CONSULTANTS

Mrs. Christine Elliott: My question is for the Minister of Health. Ontario families want to know: Where is Premier McGuinty and why is he hiding from what the auditor says in his report on eHealth 2.0? They saw McGuinty Liberals hand out sweetheart deals to Liberal-friendly consultants during the billion-dollar eHealth boondoggle. You changed the rules—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The reference that the honourable member just made certainly did cause disorder in the House, either directly or indirectly, by making reference to a member’s attendance in this chamber. If it has the ability to cause disorder, I would just ask the honourable member to refrain from making references. Thank you.

Please continue.

Mrs. Christine Elliott: They saw the McGuinty Liberals hand out sweetheart deals to Liberal-friendly consultants in the billion-dollar eHealth boondoggle.

You changed the rules; that didn’t work. You changed ministers; that didn’t work. Why is the only way to bring about real change to bring in a new government?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I think it’s going to be one of those mornings, so let’s get started.

I think what’s very important is that people perhaps watching at home understand what has transpired over the last some time. Under our government, the Auditor General was given expanded powers. One of those expanded powers was to shine a light into what was going on in hospitals, in stark contrast to what was happening when the previous government had their chance. We shone a light; they covered up. We specifically asked the Auditor General to go in and take a look. “Give us your best advice, Auditor General,” we said. “What can we do? What’s going on with respect to consultants and lobbyists in our hospitals and in our LHINs?”

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mrs. Christine Elliott: People are seeing what’s happening out there and they don’t like it. We looked at the auditor’s eHealth report and we looked at his eHealth 2.0 report. They say the same thing.

On page 13 of the eHealth report, the auditor said, “Sound and reasonable policies were in place ... but all too often the rules were not followed.” On page 8 of this year’s report, he says, “We noted far too many instances at the hospitals we visited where sound public sector business practices were not followed....”

Minister, why did you say you fixed things when you didn’t?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: What I think the member opposite knows but isn’t prepared to acknowledge is that when her party was in power—they had eight years in power when they refused to shine a light into the hospitals. They would not give the Auditor General the power to look at hospitals.

We changed that, and when we changed that, we knew that the Auditor General would find things that needed improving. He did not disappoint us. It’s why we asked him to go in. He gave us recommendations, and the very same day we introduced legislation that addresses each and every one of those recommendations.

When you have the responsibility of government, you can make a choice. You can choose to cover up, to keep things in the dark, or you can choose to shine the light and make the changes that people expect us to make.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I would just remind the honourable member of the use of unparliamentary language within this chamber. Again, it’s similar to—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Member from Oxford, I would appreciate it that when I’m taking an opportunity to address all members of this House, that everyone would listen to what I have to say.

It’s very similar to the comment that I made earlier about making references to attendance. Any time there is language used within this chamber that has the opportunity to cause disorder in this House, I’d just ask the honourable members to use the words cautiously.

Final supplementary.

Mrs. Christine Elliott: On page 11 of last year’s report, the auditor said, “Allegations that the agency showed favouritism in awarding … contracts are … true.” A year later, he says: “The Ministry of Health ... found a way around the rules when it wanted to hire a favoured consultant … we essentially felt the fix was in.… ”

The only difference between eHealth and eHealth 2.0 is that the problem is closer to the minister this time around. The auditor says the cheating was by her ministry, not an agency. Why would Ontario families believe new rules make a difference when the auditor keeps saying the McGuinty Liberals don’t follow them?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I would recommend that the member opposite actually not try to put words in the mouth of the Auditor General. He can speak for himself. I think that it’s only respectful of that position that we quote him responsibly and accurately.

We on this side of the House have made decisions since the very first—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I’d ask the honourable member from Lanark to withdraw the comment.

Mr. Randy Hillier: I withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Minister?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: We have taken step after step after step to strengthen accountability, to increase transparency. The legislation we introduced yesterday is the next step.

My question is, are we going to get the support from the party opposite for these improvements?

CONSULTANTS

Mrs. Christine Elliott: Again for the Minister of Health: Last year’s eHealth report and this year’s eHealth 2.0 report are not the only things the same about this year’s and last year’s scandals. We looked at what you said when your hand was caught in the cookie jar last year and what you say now. It’s the same too.

At his press conference last year, Premier McGuinty said: “We have ended practices carried on for decades.” In your press conference yesterday, speaking to the Minister through you, Mr. Speaker, you said: “This is a practice that has been going on far too long, and we are ending it.”

Why would Ontario families believe what you say about ending sweetheart deals when the auditor says you didn’t?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I really do think that this is a bit rich, coming from the party opposite. When it comes to the use of consultants, for example—I’m sure the party opposite knows this, but let me just remind them if they don’t. We have cut in half the spending on consultants. You left us with spending on consultants that was twice what we spend today.

I think it’s important to note that the auditor has confirmed the non-partisan nature of the contracts that were let, so if we’re going to quote the auditor, I think it’s important that we actually quote the auditor. He says party politics did not enter into the awarding of these contracts: “We did not see any evidence that it was awarded on the basis of party politics.”

We are continuing to improve transparency. When you improve transparency—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mrs. Christine Elliott: It seems that the Premier is not only recycling his scandals but his PR schemes to manage them too. Last year, he thanked the auditor for his report and said: “It’s unacceptable.” A year after the consulting contract feeding frenzy at eHealth, your line on the exact same thing going on in hospitals, LHINs and your own ministry is to thank the auditor for his report and say, “I don’t think this is acceptable.”

You had a year. Ontario families keep hearing you say that you can do better. Why don’t you actually do better?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: When it comes to health care, I think Ontario families may be interested in the contrast between their record and our record. Let me just remind the people opposite: Under their government, 6,200 nurses fired; under our government, 10,000 nurses hired. Under their leadership, 28 hospitals closed; under our leadership, 18 new hospitals opened. Under their government, they actually took—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The members will please come to order. Member from Halton. Member from Kitchener–Waterloo, and Carleton–Mississippi Mills.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock.

The member from Northumberland–Quinte West should be in his seat—and the member from Renfrew.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from Carleton–Mississippi Mills. The Minister of Community Safety and Correctional Services.

Minister?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Under their watch, they—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from Carleton–Mississippi Mills.

I’d just remind all members that I realize this is an issue that is important to members on both sides of the House, but we have an important role to play within this chamber, and I would ask all members to participate in that.

Minister?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Under the opposition’s watch, they changed the FOI laws to exclude Hydro One and OPG. What did we do? We reversed their decision and opened up Hydro One to FOI. Now we are opening up freedom of information to hospitals if our legislation is passed. Their last year in office, this—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Mrs. Christine Elliott: The reason why Ontario families want change is because the McGuinty Liberals are like a broken record. You changed the rules, but that didn’t work. You changed the ministers, but that didn’t work. Ontario families understand that if their car still isn’t fixed after the mechanic said he fixed it for the 10th time, they should change the mechanic. The same applies to you.

If Premier McGuinty is listening to all of this, I’ll ask this question: If you can’t change, then why shouldn’t Ontario families change and elect a PC government that will bring back front-line health care instead of electing all their Liberal friends and giving consulting contracts to them?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Order. Stop the clock.

Hon. Peter Fonseca: They didn’t get their McBreakfast.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): At this rate, nobody’s getting lunch.

Minister?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: We have spent the last seven years that we have been in government cleaning up the mess that that party left behind when it came to health care. When we took office, people could not get a family doctor in my community or in communities across this province. When they left office, people were waiting two years for cataract surgery, for hip replacement surgery—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from Oxford will come to order. Simcoe North, come to order. Lanark–Frontenac–Lennox and Addington, come to order.

New question.

CONSULTANTS

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Acting Premier. Yesterday’s report by the Auditor General reveals insiders bilking hospitals for bar tabs and vacations while women with breast cancer lost nurses; and hospitals closed emergency rooms. But does the Acting Premier think that we’ve actually been given the full story?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: To the Minister of Health.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Well, that’s kind of an astonishing question, I have to say. We were the ones who gave the Auditor General the responsibility to go in and look. We asked him specifically to look at this issue.

If the member opposite is suggesting that the Auditor General did not do his job thoroughly, I can tell you that I cannot support the premise of that question. I have tremendous respect for the auditor. He gave us some very good recommendations. We introduced legislation yesterday to address all of them. My question is, will you support the recommendations of the Auditor General?

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The scathing report found a misuse of precious public health dollars at every one of the 16 hospitals examined; 16 out of 16 hospitals were okay with consultants expensing trips to Singapore and $200 bar tabs. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Can the minister tell Ontarians what was happening at all the other hospitals across this province?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: The Auditor General, first of all, now has the power, which he did not have before we came to office, to look at hospitals. He has done exactly what he was requested to do by the Standing Committee on Public Accounts and he has raised some very serious issues—practices that are going on in hospitals—that are simply unacceptable. I am convinced by the Auditor General’s report that these are not isolated incidents, that there are problems in our hospital sector, that people in hospitals are not taking responsibility the way we need them to. They are spending taxpayer dollars.

People are feeling very stretched. They’re having a very difficult time making ends meet. They pay their taxes with the expectation that they get service for those dollars, that they get value for the money. That’s why we are fixing the problem; that’s why we have introduced legislation.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The Auditor General’s report has rolled back the lid but we need to blow it off. Precious health dollars were supposed to support women struggling with breast cancer, to run emergency rooms that are now closing, to pay nurses and personal support workers, to help people who are unwell in this province. Instead, that money flowed into the pockets of well-connected consultants and lobbyists at 16 out of 16 hospitals.

Will the minister now use her power under the Auditor General Act and immediately order a comprehensive review of all hospitals in this province?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I think the Auditor General did a very fine and thorough job. He shone the light on practices that are unacceptable. I have spoken to hospital CEOs and board chairs. I made it very clear to them that they have a responsibility to go through their budgets to understand the practices that are happening in their hospitals.

I can tell you that the response from hospitals and from the Ontario Hospital Association has been encouraging; they acknowledge that they have a lot of work ahead of them. We will ensure that they comply with the legislation, if indeed we pass that legislation. I do hope that members opposite will support this legislation.

CONSULTANTS

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is also to the Acting Premier. Ontario families who are losing ERs while well-connected consultants spend their health dollars on exotic vacations and drinks deserve some answers. Will the Acting Premier give us full disclosure on exactly which consultants were highlighted in the Auditor General’s report yesterday?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: To the Minister of Health.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Enhancing transparency and accountability is a hallmark of this government. I have to say that I am extremely proud of the steps we have taken. For example, the Auditor General will provide a report on the state of our finances so that, unlike under previous administrations, the taxpayers will know what kind of shape the province is in before they go into an election. Transparency, publicly reporting expenses and reporting on the use of consultants are all components of the legislation that we introduced yesterday. We are taking a big step forward when it comes to transparency.

We are giving oversight under freedom of information to hospitals. Opening up hospitals to freedom of information is a very big and important step forward. The—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Trips to Singapore, vacations to Japan, $200 bar tabs, and $210,000 salaries for a four-day work week are some of the glaring examples of our precious health care dollars that should have been spent running ERs and hiring nurses. But the problem can’t be fixed without all the facts, so when will the minister pull off the cover and let Ontario families know the names of all of the consultants who cashed in on our health care dime?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: We have taken a very significant step. We have introduced legislation yesterday that will improve transparency and expand accountability. It will strengthen our health care system.

I do want to remind the member opposite that when her party was in power—I know it was a long time ago, but nonetheless, successive governments have not taken the step that we have taken today. We are taking a step that will shine more light on the practices that are unacceptable. The Auditor General has done an exceptional job for us. We thank him for that work. We responded immediately, and I do think that all of us need to understand that this is a significant step forward.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: While families lost their ERs, while women with breast cancer lost their nurses, while patients waited in closets for the emergency room doctor to have a chance to see them, money that should have gone to making people well instead went to cover the bar tabs of well-connected insider consultants. This is really the last straw for Ontario families who have had enough of this tired and out-of-touch government. Families don’t want more empty promises; what families simply want is the facts.

When will the minister reveal the names of the consultants making these outrageous claims and order a comprehensive audit of all health care consultant spending?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I’m just going to read something that the member opposite might find of interest: “That the Provincial Auditor should have a duplicate role of going in after they’ve already been audited to do it all over again to make sure that proper policy has been followed … I say is wrong. It is not the job of the auditor to determine what public policy should be and how it’s being followed.”

Interjection: Who wrote that?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Who wrote that?

Interjection: Who said that?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Mr. Gilles Bisson.

I have another quote. I think that—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I’d just remind the honourable member of the use of names.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: That was the member for Timmins when, in fact, that party was in government. That party refused to open up hospitals to freedom of information when they had the chance. Our government is doing exactly that.

CONSULTANTS

Mr. Steve Clark: The McGuinty Liberals can say what they like about accountability, but the Premier—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): To whom?

Mr. Steve Clark: My question is to the Acting Premier—but the Premier hasn’t yet uttered a peep about the Auditor General’s eHealth 2.0 report. He certainly hasn’t been a model of accountability in facing this House. I was at the same press conference the Premier was at this morning and I made it back to the House, because—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): This House stands recessed for five minutes.

The House recessed from 1059 to 1106.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I’ve had to remind members on a number of occasions today about making references to members’ attendance. I think we need to be cognizant of the fact, and I’m going to remind you again, that we often don’t know why a member is or is not here. During the recess, I was reminded of an occasion in this House where a member in opposition was making repeated references to a cabinet minister of the day not being in attendance. Subsequent to those numerous references being made, the member was made aware that that cabinet minister was at a hospital attending to her son.

We don’t know the reasons, but I think we need to be cognizant that there may be circumstances in people’s day-to-day lives so that they cannot be here.

I’ll say to members that I’ve reminded them a number of times today about making those references to attendance. If it happens again, I’m just going to pass to the next question, no questions asked—and that’s a warning to everyone. That warning holds true as well from the standpoint of just walking back into the chamber right now and making references. If you want to make those comments, go outside the chamber and make them, but don’t make them in here, because we all recognize that it does disrupt the flow of the House.

With that, I’m going to ask the member from Leeds–Grenville to get to his question, please.

Mr. Steve Clark: I’m here in the House and I will address my question to the Acting Premier. When will the Premier of the province of Ontario take accountability in this House for the eHealth 2.0 report?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: To the Minister of Health.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: When it comes to accountability and transparency, we will not be taking any lessons whatsoever from the party opposite. Their record is very, very clear, and so is ours. We are the party that has strengthened accountability, that has strengthened transparency; that is the party that refused to take the steps to shine the light on practices that were going on.

They have had some advice for us. We have had advice that we perhaps send a memo. We’re going much farther than that: We are taking action. We have introduced legislation. We are hoping that we will have support for that legislation.

The member from Nepean–Carleton introduced legislation. She thinks it’s pretty fabulous. I tell you, it does not ban the practice of hiring lobbyists with taxpayer dollars to lobby for—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Steve Clark: Thank you, Minister, but you’re talking to me. I’m asking you a question. The question was about when the Premier—who hasn’t uttered a peep in this House about the Auditor General’s eHealth 2.0 report. I want to know, why should Ontario families believe that there won’t be an eHealth 3.0? Answer that question.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: As we’ve said many times in this House—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Member from Lanark, I don’t need the advice of others in the House. I’d just remind the honourable member that you should be in your seat.

Minister?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: This is a government that has expanded transparency precisely so that we can find out what is going on and take the right action to address those issues. That’s exactly what happened here. Under their watch, there was nobody looking, there was nobody watching, but that didn’t stop the Auditor General from actually finding some things that were going on under their watch.

On page 25, he says, “In early 1999”—remember that? That’s under your watch—“the hospital single-sourced a contract, which has been in continued operation since that time.... Total costs paid to the firm have amounted to about $60 million”—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question?

CONSULTANTS

M me France Gélinas: Ma question est pour le premier ministre par intérim. After the Auditor General acted upon my motion and exposed that precious health care dollars were padding the pockets of high-priced lobbyists and consultants under McGuinty’s watch, how can the government expect Ontarians to trust our health care system?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: To the Minister of Health.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I know that the member opposite has a job to do as my critic and I expect her to do that job, but what I do not expect her to do, particularly someone with such a strong background in health care, is to play politics with this issue.

The Auditor General’s report exposed practices that are unacceptable, exposed practices that do not respect taxpayer dollars. I’m not going to defend anything that the Auditor General revealed, but to suggest that somehow Ontarians ought not to have trust or confidence in their health care system is completely irresponsible. Ontarians can have absolute confidence in their health care system. They can have absolute confidence in the quality of care that they are getting. We have an excellent—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

M me France Gélinas: We’re talking about money that was taken away from people who are sick. We’re talking about money that was taken away from people who needed care. That’s because their government failed them.

The Auditor General himself said that he’s surprised that eHealth had not been the wakeup call for hospitals to tighten up their procedures. It is clear that despite scandal after scandal and three health ministers since I’ve been here, this government has not been able to ensure that precious health care dollars go to health care. Yesterday’s report is just the latest example of a government failing on the job.

Why does this government continue shaking up Ontarians’ trust in our health care system by letting lobbyists profit on the backs of sick people?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: As I have said, we introduced legislation yesterday to address the issues raised by the Auditor General. I was astonished to hear the member opposite yesterday—perhaps she was misquoted. I think the member yesterday called this legislation, which addresses the recommendations of the Auditor General—they were characterized yesterday by this member as worthless.

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t on one hand criticize and then call the legislation that addresses those worthless. So what is it? Are they playing politics with this or are they genuinely interested in improving health care in this province?

AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY

Mr. Joe Dickson: My question is for the Minister of Economic Development and Trade. Our province, like many other jurisdictions around the world, has felt the negative effects of the recent global economic downturn. Ontario’s automotive sector was particularly affected by the recession, and employment in this sector fell dramatically. But our province is now emerging from the recession. We have seen progress in a number of industries as workers are being called back to the job and production is ramping up to meet a growing demand for Ontario-made goods.

What role, if any, has the Ontario government played in ensuring the long-term viability of the—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Minister?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: I’m delighted to speak on behalf of the automotive industry of Ontario, and in particular the member for Ajax–Pickering, a long-time defender of the automotive industry, and, in Oshawa, GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda—and we are delighted that so many on our side of the House are in fact defenders of the automotive industry. When other parties in this House turned their backs on the automotive industry when they needed help, the Ontario government, under the Liberal leader, Dalton McGuinty, was there for the automotive industry.

Today, as a result of that support, we know that GM, for example, in Oshawa—in this member’s backyard—is rehiring 600 people to take care of more demand for the Equinox, more demand for GM product, and we’re delighted to see that. And let me say that this simply would not have happened had we listened to opposition members of this House who at that time chose to call our support—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Joe Dickson: I would like to thank the minister for her response. It has had a positive impact in my area of Durham region and all of Ontario. It is encouraging to hear just how dedicated this government has been to the long-term viability of the province’s auto industry and its workers.

The examples that the minister provided in the first part of my question were compelling. However, little to no mention of support for automotive innovation was made. In order for our province to continue as a global auto leader, our industry must be able to keep up with the ever-changing demands of the consumer.

I was involved with the announcement with the minister in Oshawa which demonstrates our government’s support for automotive innovation. The Ontario government, along with a number of partners, announced the unveiling of the Automotive Centre of Excellence. My question is, will we provide this House with further examples of how this government—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Minister?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: I was in fact delighted to be with this particular member at UOIT just on Monday, where we could bring industry together to look at the significant Ontario government investment in this facility. In fact, the Automotive Centre of Excellence, as this member well knows—$80 million from the Ontario government, supporting innovation for the entire automotive industry, for green industries, for aerospace and all of those industries looking for places to do that research. UOIT now has a tremendous facility.

This is in great contrast to the opposition members who, quite frankly, did not support the automotive industry when they needed help the most, when they called it “corporate welfare.” In the meantime, even your colleague in the Ajax-Whitby area, whose own campaign manager chose to take money as a lobbyist—that in fact wasn’t corporate welfare, but their support of automotive, they refused to give, so we—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: My question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. The government has repeatedly failed to meet its own deadlines on the release of the affordable housing strategy report. It was supposed to be delivered last June. There are now 142,000 families waiting an average of 10 to 12 years for affordable housing. This is the worst record in Ontario’s history. Will the minister give us the actual date this report will be released?

Hon. Rick Bartolucci: The member from Parkdale–High Park should know that since 2003, we have committed more than $2.5 billion toward the sector. This is helping us build and repair well over 200,000 units across the province and deliver more than 35,000 rent supplements. She should know that we are the first government in Ontario to come forward with a long-term affordable housing strategy, which will be out later this year. She should understand that we inherited a mess from two previous governments; that we are now repairing the mess that was left by two previous governments.

We are dedicated to making a difference in affordable housing. We will continue to work toward this strategy.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: The minister’s words are cold comfort to the 142,000 families who are facing homelessness this winter.

Just two days ago, there was a mass demonstration at the Ministry of Housing by Ontarians demanding the release of the affordable housing strategy report. They pointed out that there was not even a line item for housing when the government announced its budget for the year. No money for housing? No wonder there’s no housing strategy.

I ask again: Give us the exact date of when the housing strategy report will be released.

Hon. Rick Bartolucci: Actually, the demonstration that was out in front of 777 Bay Street was all about getting the federal government involved in a long-term affordable housing strategy. I stood up in this House and said I support that. I believe the federal government should get involved in the long-term affordable housing strategy.

I’d love to be able to compare records. When the NDP were in power, there was no affordable housing strategy in place. In fact, if anything, there was a diminishing of importance with regard to affordable housing. That’s not the case here. We’ve made $2.5 billion worth of investment in affordable housing. We will continue to ensure that we work on a long-term affordable housing strategy that is in place in the timeline that the Premier said makes sense, unlike what previous governments have done.

FIRE SAFETY

Mr. David Zimmer: My question is for the Minister of Community Safety and Correctional Services.

Fire safety is something everybody thinks about. We worry about our homes, our families and the best way to stay safe from fire. It’s especially true for seniors and those vulnerable persons who have difficulty caring for themselves. I hear about these concerns from constituents all the time. They and I have seen several fires in residences for vulnerable Ontarians over the years. Some have resulted in fatalities.

I know our government has enhanced fire safety regulations on a number of fronts, but I also know a lot more can be done. Minister, what are we doing to protect those most at risk from fire here in Ontario?

Hon. James J. Bradley: That’s a very important question and one that has been before this House on many occasions. This government has heard from organizations across Ontario, experts in the fire sector, those who live in and manage vulnerable care homes, municipalities and others, that more needs to be done. That’s why today we announced that we are launching extensive consultations on how to improve fire safety in residences for seniors, people with disabilities and other vulnerable Ontarians.

We recognize there are a number of ways to move forward and a number of different aspects to consider, so we’re seeking advice from residents, their families and organizations, including fire services, municipalities, facility owners and operators, and associations, that play important roles in ensuring the safety of these individuals. This advice will help the government to determine our next steps to enhance fire safety in vulnerable care homes, such as with fire sprinklers—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. David Zimmer: My constituents in Willowdale, and indeed everybody in Ontario, will be happy that we’re moving forward on this file. But there is no single thing that will fix the issue of fire safety. There needs to be a comprehensive approach put in place in order to protect Ontarians.

There are a number of organizations in my riding, Willowdale, that work with vulnerable Ontarians, and I feel that they really want to contribute to these consultations. I’ve also heard generally from those living in retirement and long-term-care homes that they want their voices heard in this consultation process. Minister, quite specifically, how can these people have a say in this consultation process?

Hon. James J. Bradley: We’re going to be posting a consultation document for comment. We’re going to seek the views and concerns of all our fire safety industry partners, including all the organizations to which I made reference. We’re pleased that the Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs, the Ontario Professional Fire Fighters Association and the Ontario Retirement Communities Association, among others, have expressed their enthusiasm about this important step forward.

Following the receipt of all submissions made during the consultation, we plan to release a document outlining what we have heard, and we’re wide open to all suggestions that will help us drive the best plan to address and improve fire safety in residences housing vulnerable Ontarians. We look forward to that input.

I want to pay tribute to MPP Jeffrey, MPP Sergio, MPP Miller and MPP Craitor, who have all brought forward private members’ bills on this particular issue. I think that, together as members of the Legislature, we’ll be able to bring about something that is going to make a measurable difference—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

CONSULTANTS

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: My question is for the Minister of Health. The auditor’s report is not just about hospital lobbying contracts. On page 8 of the report, the auditor says he found two cases where the Ministry of Health gave “preferred treatment” to higher-priced consultants, yet you are trying to make hospitals scapegoats when, especially after eHealth, you had to have known what was happening within your own ministry.

How can you expect hospitals to follow rules that you are not following yourself?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: We have made significant change. We have improved transparency and accountability. Because of action that this government has taken, the auditor has the power to go in and expose these practices, which are unacceptable.

This did not start under our watch. Every party represented in this House bears some responsibility for not having made the changes that we are now making. Let me refer to the Auditor General’s report again. He raises several contracts that actually started back in the 1990s, when they were in power. On page 28, he says, “At one hospital, a consultant has been engaged since 1999 as the chief executive officer.” The contract was—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: It’s time for this government to assume responsibility. They’ve been there for seven years. This is why Ontario families want change.

Yesterday, the auditor said, “One thing the minister does set is the culture, what I call the tone from the top.” The culture you’ve created is blaming the rules constantly and passing the buck. A year after the former health minister was thrown under the bus to shield George Smitherman from accountability, the auditor says on page 12 of his report that the rot is also in your own ministry. He found that the ministry awarded a half-million-dollar contract to a consultant even though it had submitted the highest of 12 bids.

Why is accountability greater when an agency is caught short-changing Ontario families than when it is your own ministry who is cheating Ontario families?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I think if the member opposite actually thought about it, she would know that these are practices that have gone on far too long under all governments.

It is our government that is taking action. Her party thought we should send a memo; our party thinks we need to pass legislation. Her party thought that you could improve accountability and not ban lobbyists; we think we need to ban lobbyists from using taxpayer dollars.

These are practices that have gone on for far too long under governments of all stripes. We have asked the Auditor General to give us advice. We are acting on that advice. We have introduced legislation. I genuinely hope, and ask the member opposite: Will you support this legislation?

HYDRO RATES

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Acting Premier. Families across Ontario are being squeezed by higher and higher hydro bills. Margaret Risdon from Elliot Lake writes: “I live in a two-bedroom apartment in northern Ontario. I just dread to think what my bills are going to be this winter.”

With winter coming, how soon can Ms. Risdon expect her government to give her a break by taking the HST off of hydro?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: To the Minister of Energy.

Hon. Brad Duguid: I guess I’m still waiting to see if the leader of the third party puts in her newsletter all the good news about the energy and property tax credit that’s going to help that very constituent. But maybe she doesn’t want that constituent to know.

I guess the question I have is why, day after day, the leader of the third party gets up in her place to oppose the important investments that we’re making in our energy system, important investments that are shared in creating jobs right across this province.

I’d like to quote from the United Steelworkers. They said, about an announcement that the Premier was at with them just a couple of days ago: “Today’s announcement is doubly good news.... More new jobs in Ontario are just what working families need. And helping build a cleaner tomorrow is just what workers want for their kids, too.”

The quote goes on, and I have a feeling I may want to expand on that in the supplementary.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Ms. Risdon isn’t alone in worrying about paying her hydro bill. Mary D. from Sarnia writes this: “We have noticed on our last payment for hydro our bill has increased by approximately $100.”

Mary LeBlanc, the mother of a child with special needs, also from Sarnia, writes: “Just got my hydro bill last week and nearly had a heart attack … another $40 in HST!”

How much longer will Mary and her family have to wait before this government finally gives them a break and takes the HST off of their hydro bills?

Hon. Brad Duguid: There was a time in this province when the NDP used to stand for something. It’s becoming very obvious now that those principles that they once possessed, those principles that required investments in energy to ensure that we could move from a dirty system of energy to a clean system of energy, investments that are creating jobs across this province—they have lost their way. They no longer support those investments.

I ask the member, because I know she’s vaguely familiar with the steelworkers of Ontario, who I think once used to be very close to her—no longer, because this is what they’re saying: “From steelworkers making wind turbines to electricians installing solar panels, workers can support their families by working in clean energy.... Workers in other countries know this is the economy of tomorrow. More Ontario workers know clean energy will power our economy, too.”

It’s a—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENT

Mr. Bob Delaney: My question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. In recent months, we’ve heard much about municipal election campaigns all across Ontario and the way they inspire us and get us to work to elect more and more people, and mostly to get people involved in the democratic process.

In the western Mississauga neighbourhoods of Lisgar, Meadowvale and Streetsville, I am aware of an initiative by our province and a variety of other groups to immerse more people into how government and the democratic process work. Called Local Government Week, the program engages students in processes similar to that of municipal elections.

Would the minister outline what Local Government Week is and why this event is so important to the democratic process in Ontario?

Hon. Rick Bartolucci: I think every member in this House will agree that the democratic process is very good and worth teaching. That’s why Local Government Week is all about informing our students about the importance of government. This year, we’re combining Local Government Week with Student Vote, an initiative whereby students will hold parallel elections.

For example, in Sudbury tomorrow I’ll be at St. Benedict secondary school with principal Karl Dreger and vice-principal Judi Way. I’ll be with the 600 students who will be having a parallel election. In Sudbury, 18 schools are participating and 4,300 kids are going to be voting in this parallel election.

I encourage everybody in the House to get their communities involved. Get those students involved. As our Premier has said, the students are the foundation of Ontario’s society tomorrow.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Bob Delaney: Newcomers and multi-generation Ontarians alike need their government to take an active approach and reach out to Ontarians to encourage greater participation in local politics.

The first step in making a difference in one’s community is getting involved in democratically selecting the men and women who represent you. We all represent the many municipalities that make up Ontario because we took an interest in improving life in our communities.

Minister, I understand that many schools are participating in Local Government Week. Would you tell the House how many schools are participating in the program and describe the topics being discussed in Ontario classrooms during this year’s Local Government Week?

Hon. Rick Bartolucci: To the Minister of Education.

Hon. Leona Dombrowsky: I am delighted to report to this House that there are 1,500 elementary and secondary schools participating this week in this initiative. I’m also happy that the Ministry of Education has been able to provide $100,000 for this initiative.

Of course, it’s important to remember that this is only possible when the elected representatives within communities make themselves available to go into the schools and talk to students. I think it’s important that we recognize and thank them for their contribution but also for understanding why it is so important that we touch our young students, the future electors of the province of Ontario, and have them understand the kinds of services that are provided locally, how their lives are impacted at the local level and that they actually have an opportunity, when there is a municipal election, to make a difference and to ensure they have—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: My question is for the Minister of Government Services. Last year, the Premier hastily assembled a press conference to pre-empt the auditor’s criticism of consultant expenses by announcing that 22 agencies would have to post expenses online.

On September 15, we asked how the commissioner will be able to do the job when you haven’t added resources to her office. The Premier said: “We will make sure that the appropriate resources are ... there.” But yesterday, the finance minister said that “expenses are with the Integrity Commissioner.... I imagine ... that office is quite backlogged.”

You’re responsible for the Integrity Commissioner’s office. Who should Ontario families believe: the Premier, who promised the Integrity Commissioner’s office the resources would be there, or the finance minister, who admitted they are not there?

Hon. Harinder S. Takhar: Actually, I’m very proud of the fact that we have brought in measures to improve accountability and transparency for the public sector and also for ministerial staff and ministers. I have also asked the leaders of the opposition, both parties, to post their expenses.

The process is that as of April 1, all the expenses for all these people will be approved and then will go to the Integrity Commissioner. Then the Integrity Commissioner will look at and review those expenses. If there is any problem with those expenses, she has the opportunity and the authority, actually, to recall some of those expenses.

All the expenses that have been approved have gone to the Integrity Commissioner. Now the Integrity Commissioner will approve those expenses. They will come back and be posted on—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: Wasn’t that quite an answer? Wasn’t that pathetic?

When you appeared before the estimates committee on May 18, the Ontario PC caucus asked you about the McGuinty Liberals breaking the rules for filing expenses, as well as our plan to extend freedom-of-information legislation to all public bodies.

You said that “the cost was in the range of $30 million.... it doesn’t really make a lot of sense.” You said that. But yesterday, when the Minister of Health was asked about extending freedom-of-information legislation to hospitals, she said: “Is there a cost attached to that? Yes, there is, but I think it is worth it in terms of transparency.” Why does she now say transparency is worth it, but you don’t agree?

But maybe I could ask you another question: Where is the Premier today?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): That’s the final warning to the member from Simcoe North. I don’t want to repeat what I said earlier, but I made it very clear that references to attendance are not acceptable. If this practice is going to persist on both sides of the House, then there will be naming without any warning to a member, because it’s not healthy for this place to do that. You just saw the disorder. I trust that the honourable member has respect for the chair, and I’m quite confident that he is not flouting the authority of the chair.

Minister?

Hon. Harinder S. Takhar: Let me say that I have every faith in the Integrity Commissioner. If they need more resources, they will come and ask us, and we will be more than pleased to look at that. I had a meeting with the Integrity Commissioner on that issue as well.

But let’s just put this in some perspective. On February 18, I sent a letter to the Leader of the Opposition asking them to post their expenses. It took them eight months—eight long months—to develop even a simple website to post their expenses. Then they didn’t release any report or even Twitter, for that matter, to tell people where to find those expenses. Eight months to do a simple website that you could post expenses on.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock. There was some question there about going to the next question, and I thought it would be in the interest of the government that they would want their honourable member—the member had finished the question, and I thought that you would have wanted the member to answer the question. That’s what I chose to do.

New question.

FRENCH-LANGUAGE SERVICES

M me France Gélinas: Ma question est pour la ministre des Richesses naturelles. La semaine dernière, j’ai eu le grand plaisir de me rendre à Foleyet. C’était comme un gros parti néo-démocrate parce que tout le monde portait de l’orange. Tous les chasseurs et les chasseresses cherchaient également le résumé des règlements de chasse de 2010 du ministère des Richesses naturelles.

Pourquoi, madame la Ministre, est-ce que dans une communauté aussi francophone que Foleyet il y avait des versions anglaises partout—dans les pourvoiries, dans les LCBO, à la station d’essence à 1,28 $ le litre, dans les magasins généraux—mais il n’y avait aucune version francophone disponible?

L’hon. Dwight Duncan: La ministre des Richesses naturelles.

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: I’m happy to answer the question. It’s the first I’ve heard of this issue. Certainly, we value our francophone hunters, whether they come from Ontario or Quebec. We have people from all over North America who come to Ontario to hunt and fish and camp. Certainly, it’s something that I will take under advisement with some more information. I would be happy to work with the member.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: I’m happy to work with the member, as I said. I have worked with other communities. We’ve offered briefings for our francophone hunters and anglers. It’s very important that we provide those services, and I appreciate her bringing this to our attention.

It is our intention to make sure that everyone has access to hunting and fishing and using the resources we have in Ontario. We’re very proud of the services we provide at MNR, and I know that our staff will work very closely with you. We’re happy to accommodate your request.

IMMIGRANT SERVICES

Mr. Phil McNeely: My question is for the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. Minister, each year Ontario welcomes thousands of immigrants to our province. These newcomers choose Ontario as their new home because of the opportunities they have to create a better life.

Newcomers bring with them a wealth of skills, talent and expertise which they hope can help them find a good job. Despite having the skills and education, many newcomers find it difficult to enter the workplace in Ontario. Newcomers in my riding of Ottawa–Orléans have told me that their lack of Canadian work experience is often an obstacle to obtaining a job in their field of expertise.

Can the minister tell newcomers in my riding and throughout Ontario what the government is doing to help newcomers find work in their profession?

Hon. Eric Hoskins: I appreciate the question from the member from Ottawa–Orléans. The McGuinty government is investing in bridge training programs to help Ontario newcomers succeed. In fact, since 2003, we have invested more than $175 million to support our newcomers through bridge training programs.

These programs create a bridge to employment opportunities by helping our newcomers get training and local workplace experience so that they can get licensed or certified in their profession or trade. These programs work. They help our newcomers get good jobs to support themselves and to support their families.

Because of the success of bridge training, we recently renewed several programs that are delivering results in Ottawa. For example, we invested an additional $1.7 million to help more than 700 newcomers get jobs in engineering, the construction trades and other professions. Investments such as these will help Ontario put the skills of our newcomers to work.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Phil McNeely: Newcomers in my riding will be pleased to hear that they can access bridge training programs as they make the transition into the Ontario workplace.

Can the minister tell francophone newcomers in Ottawa–Orléans, in my riding, how they can access integration services in their language in Ottawa?

Hon. Eric Hoskins: Again, thank you for the question. I appreciate the opportunity to speak about what the government of Ontario is doing to support our francophone newcomers.

The McGuinty government recognizes the importance of delivering bridge training programs for French-speaking newcomers, and that’s why we’re investing in bridge training programs to help our skilled francophone newcomers find good jobs.

In Ottawa, for example, our government has partnered with La Cité collégiale, which helps foreign-trained workers in the construction trades. This partnership helps francophone newcomers access recruitment services, training workshops as well as internships and apprenticeships.

Our francophone newcomers in Ottawa can also access the Ottawa job match program. This is a program in collaborative partnership that connects internationally trained immigrants in Ottawa with Ottawa-area employers looking for workers with a specific set of skills.

These investments will help our francophone newcomers living in Ontario and living in Ottawa get the job training and employment services they need to succeed.

DEFERRED VOTES

OPEN FOR BUSINESS ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 FAVORISANT UN ONTARIO

PROPICE AUX AFFAIRES

Deferred vote on the motion for third reading of Bill 68,

An Act to promote Ontario as open for business by amending or repealing certain Acts / Projet de loi 68, Loi favorisant un Ontario propice aux affaires en modifiant ou en abrogeant certaines lois.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Call in the members. This will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1148 to 1153.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): All those in favour will rise one at a time to be recorded by the Clerk.

Ayes

Arthurs, Wayne

Balkissoon, Bas

Bartolucci, Rick

Bentley, Christopher

Bradley, James J.

Broten, Laurel C.

Brown, Michael A.

Cansfield, Donna H.

Caplan, David

Chan, Michael

Chiarelli, Bob

Delaney, Bob

Dickson, Joe

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duguid, Brad

Duncan, Dwight

Flynn, Kevin Daniel

Fonseca, Peter

Gerretsen, John

Gravelle, Michael

Hoskins, Eric

Jaczek, Helena

Jeffrey, Linda

Johnson, Rick

Kular, Kuldip

Kwinter, Monte

Lalonde, Jean-Marc

Leal, Jeff

Matthews, Deborah

McNeely, Phil

Meilleur, Madeleine

Mitchell, Carol

Moridi, Reza

Murray, Glen R.

Phillips, Gerry

Pupatello, Sandra

Rinaldi, Lou

Ruprecht, Tony

Sandals, Liz

Sousa, Charles

Wilkinson, John

Wynne, Kathleen O.

Zimmer, David

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Opposed?

Nays

Arnott, Ted

Barrett, Toby

Bisson, Gilles

Chudleigh, Ted

Clark, Steve

DiNovo, Cheri

Dunlop, Garfield

Gélinas, France

Hampton, Howard

Hardeman, Ernie

Hillier, Randy

Horwath, Andrea

Jones, Sylvia

Klees, Frank

Kormos, Peter

Marchese, Rosario

Miller, Norm

Miller, Paul

Munro, Julia

Prue, Michael

Savoline, Joyce

Tabuns, Peter

Wilson, Jim

Witmer, Elizabeth

Yakabuski, John

The Clerk of the Assembly (Ms. Deborah Deller): The ayes are 43; the nays are 25.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I declare the motion carried.

Be it resolved that the bill do now pass and be entitled as in the motion.

Third reading agreed to.

CORRECTION OF RECORD

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I just wanted to correct the record regarding my answer to the member for Nickel Belt. I wanted to make sure people knew that our hunting regulations are posted in French on the MNR website. I will obviously work on getting the hard copy available in the member’s riding, but I wanted to correct that.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): That’s a point of order. The member is allowed to correct the record.

There being no further deferred votes, this House stands recessed until 1 p.m.

The House recessed from 1157 to 1300.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Frank Klees: I’d like to welcome special guests today in the Legislature: Ms. Anne Brayley and her partner, Nanette Sanson; and Leslie Freeman and her husband, Tim Mallory. Welcome.

Mr. Paul Miller: It’s my pleasure to introduce Chief Tim Beckett of the Kitchener fire department. Tim is the president of the Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs. Welcome, Tim.

Mr. Mario Sergio: The guests are not here, but we have a delegation coming from sunny Sicily, from the city of Siracusa. They have the Archimedes exhibit and the conference on a writer called Vitaliano Brancati.

They are Professoressa Giuseppina Ignaccolo, the vice-president of the Consorzio Universitario di Siracusa; Professore Giacinto Taibi, University of Catania; Professoressa Rita Valenti; Professoressa Mariangela Liuzzo; Sebastiano Minardi; Edgardo Bandiera, president of the council of the municipal city of Siracusa; Franco Formica, vice-president; Giancarlo Garozzo, councillor; Fabio Rodante, councillor; Angelo Aliffi; Sebastiano Cimino. Four of their hosts are here as well: Roberto Bandiera, Maria Bandiera, Enzo Di Mauro and Connie Di Mauro.

I hope they all get here soon; otherwise, they will still be recorded as being here.

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

ANNE BRAYLEY

AND LESLIE FREEMAN

Mr. Frank Klees: I welcome to the Legislature today two accomplished Ontarians. Toronto residents Anne Brayley and L