Manitoba Hansard — 6 April 1962 (Sitting 56, 26th Legislature, 5th Session)

26-5-56

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative � � Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Vol. VII No. 56 8:00 p.m. Friday, April 6, 1962.· 5th Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans. Queen,s Printer for the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Friday, April 6th, 1962. MR. SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 74. The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. FRED GROVES (St. Vital): My bill had second reading this afternoon, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 60. The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR. JAMES COWAN, Q.C. (Winnipeg Centre): Mr. Speaker, I ••••• MR. ROBLIN: Are we quite clear on the point of order here? Good. MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed he's closing the debate. MR. HILLHOUSE: Are you closing the debate or are you making a statement? MR.

COWAN: I would like to make a statement, but I don't know whether that is in order or not. MR. ROBLIN: He has to be closing the debate. MR. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, this bill is for the purpose of doing exactly what it says in the title, "to validate a certain devise and bequest in the Last Will and Testament of Esther Sbnoor, deceased.11 This lady died in Winnipeg in 1960, having lived with her youngest son Harry, for some 25 years. She died at the age of 85 years and was blind for the last two years.

Her son Harry and his wife, helped to look after her, and as a matter of fact he was the only son that would look after her and she didn't want to go into an institution. She owned the double house in which she lived with her son Harry.

She also owned another house and she had some money in the bank. · In 1951, she executed a will, whereby she gave the double house to her son Harry, with whom she lived, and the residue of the estate, and she gave the other house to her oldest son and appointed him executor, and she asked that the bank account, the money in the large bank account, be divided among her six grandchildren. She also stated in the will that the oldest son was to put a mortgage for $2, OOO on the house that he was getting, and give this $2, OOO to her second son.

This will was properly executed and completed, and in 1956, by that time she had additional money in the bank and she decided,that she wanted to make a new will. She changed the will in this respect: instead of having the $2, OOO to her second son being paid out of a mort gage on the house she was giving to her oldest son, she decided that the $2, OOO would be paid out of the bank account and that the six grandchildren would get the rest of the money that was in the bank account.

Both wills were kept and are in existence, but the will made in 1956 was witnessed by the wife of her son Harry, the son with whom she lived, and whom she gave in both wil�s this doub-, le house and the residue of the estate. Because it was witnessed by the wife of Harry, the be quest is invalid, and this bill is brought before the House for the purpose of validating the be quest so that the wishes of Mrs. Shnoor can be carried out. Her wishes are set out quite well in both wills with regard to this son Harry. She didn't change the bequest to him in the second will.

She had told him on various occasions that he was to have the house, and there is no dis pute about the fact that she wanted her son Harry to have this double house -- he had helped her for years -- and we are asking this House to validate the will in order to do what is right and to carry out the wishes of the deceased lady. I might say that only last year this House passed

an Act for the relief of the Estate of Char lie Young in re13pect of that person's estate, and from time to time this House passes acts for the relief of various persons in order that the right thing may be done. In 1926 this House passed

an act somewhat similar to the one before this House. It's in respect of the will of Johann Johnson, and it is found in

Chapter 115 of the Statutes of Manitoba of 1926. In that case, the will was witnessed by only one person

whereas the law requires the will to be witnessed by two people, and the Legislature passed

an act validating that will. This is something that has been done before, and if we carry through with this bill we will be carrying out the wishes of the lady and doing that which is right. Now if the bequest is left invalid it will mean that Harry, instead of receiving the house and the residue -- there's practically no residue -- so instead of receiving the double house, would only receive one-third of the double house, which makes quite a difference, the house to him, and although the house isn't a terribly valuable one, it is worth about $9, OOO. 00. April 6th, 1962 Page 1499

MR. HILLHOUSE: Will the honourable member permit a question?"'Was the will of Jan- uary 11, 1951, revoked by the will of December 15, 1956? · MR . COWAN: Yes; yes. MR. HILLHOUSE: Have the solicitors for the estate considered whether or no the doctrine of contingent revocation would not only apply in this particular case? And.the fact that the will of December 15, 1956 was not properly executed it would not revoke the prior will? MR. COWAN: I didn't ask the solicitor that question. I am sure that it has been considered and that that question has been gone into.

I think that the 1956 will is not invalid; only the be quest to Harry Shnoor is invalid. The will itself under the law, the last will is valid, just the bequest is invalid to Harry Shnoor. MR. HILLHOUSE: You are aware, are you not, that there is this doctrine of contingent revocation and where a prior will ia revoked by a aubsequent will which ia ineffective, that the revocation of the first will does not take place? MR . COWAN: Mr. Speaker, the second will is not ineffective, it's just the bequest to Harry Shnoor. MR . HILLHOUSE: Wasn't he the sole beneficiary under the second will? :fv!R. COWAN: Pardon? MR.

HILLHOUSE: Wasn't he the sole beneficiary under t.he aecond will? MR . COWAN: No, the second will was quite the same as the first one excepting that the $2, OOO to the second son was to come out of the bank account instead of out of a mortgage that the oldest son was to place on the house that he was getting. I've asked that members give this bill a second reading so that it can go to Law Amendments Committee, and there all 'the parties concerned will be represented and members can question them, or it may be going to Private Bills Committee. MR. SPEAKER: Are you r�ady for the question? MR. ORLIKOW: Mr.

Speaker, Iim not going to object to this bill .•••• MR. ROBLIN: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre has closed debate. However, I would suggest in view of the peculiar way i:n which this has come up that if any member does want to speak now, I'm sure we could get unaniµlous consent to have it done -- if any member feels that he really wants to contribute to this debate. Otherwise, we'll call it closed. MR. ORLIKOW: Mr. Speaker, may I speak? Mr. Speaker, it's not my intention to speak very long nor •.•.• MR . SPEAKER: Order. Does the honourable member have unanimous consent of the House? MEMBERS: Aye. MR.

ORLIKOW: Mr. Speaker, it's not my intention to speak very long, nor is it my inten tion to vote against this bill on second reading, although representations were made to a number of members of the House and I know that there will be a delegation appearing before the Law Amendments Committee, or whichever Committee deals with this, on the basis that what this bill proposes to do is to wipe out, in effect, part of the legislation dealing with wills which was passed by the Legislature of Manitoba some years ago, and it is the feeling of the people who made representations that this is not proper, but Mr.

Speaker, I think that they can make better legal representations than I can. I just bring this to the attention of the House. MR . SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. HILLHOUSE: Mr. Speaker, might I be permitted to ask the First Minister a question? Would it be possible to have this bill go to Law Amendments instead of Private Bills? I think it's a matter of considerable importance. MR. ROBLIN: Mr.

Speaker, I think that if the mover of the motion would agree to that, we would be happy to have it go to Law Amendments rather than Private Bills, and unless he objects I will assume that we do have that leave from him and therefore it will go to Law Amend ments. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't like raising questions of order, but is it not one of our rules that private members still should be dealt with in the Committee on Private Bills? MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I think that if there is consent we may do what we like. If there's not consent, well then the other procedure must be followed.

But I take it that there is consent. MR. GRAY: Mr. Speaker, on the same privilege please that the others have, I think that Page 1500 April 6th, 1962

(Mr. Gray, cont'd) ••••.• this bill should go to second reading for one other reason, the pub licity it will get of the people -- they will feel that if they want w have a proper will and prop erly handled they will go to a lawyer next time. MR. HILLHOUSE: They did. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the bill to go to Law Amendments Committee. MR . SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 34, the Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman this bill is a clear-cut bill.

I don't think there's very many leg�l complications as far as the bill is concerned. Its objective, of course, is obvious; to lower the voting age in provincial elections from the age of 21 to 18. This particular matter has been debated in this House on numerous occasions.

I don't just recall the year -- it may have been 1954 or 1955 -- the last time a resolution of this nature was before the Assembly under the former Liberal administration, and the resolution at that time was amended so that the government of the day would undertake, or would undertake to consult with the federal auth orities and other provinces to bring about uniformity of a lower age than 21 in the Dominion.

And then in 1960 a special committee of this Legislature under this present government was set up to inquire into amendments to The Elections Act, and among other matters, it dealt with the question of lowering the age from 21 to 18 or some other age under the age of 21.

At that time the Att orney-General, the present Attorney-General, undertook to take the matter up once again with Ottawa, and according to a press release I have here of November 8th, 1960, the Attorney-General said that he would sound out the other provinces in Ottawa on a lower vot ing age at the next Dominion-Provincial Constitution talks slated for January 12th and 13th of 1961. . Now I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that delay has been long enough in respect of this mat ter.

It appears to me that nothing of a concrete nature has been done as a result of discussions wi th other jurisdictions or the federal government. It does appear to me that if we were to await uniformity across the Dominion in respect of the age of voting, we may deprive young men and women of the age of 18 and over the rights of exercising a franchise after a long per iod of time. The three provinces to the west of us each having a voting age of less number of years than 21.

I appreciated the remarks the other day of the Honourable Member for Os borne when he said that he had conducted a poll in his own home in respect of this matter. But I would suggest that in the three provinces to the west of us that legislation for votes for those under the age of 21 has met with general approval, because as far as I am aware Mr. Speaker, no effort has been made in either Saskatchewan, Alberta or British Columbia to increase the age limit for voting in provincial elections back to 21, and it is a very peculiar situation that 1, we have here in the Province of Manitoba.

I refer to the fact that a special committee. was set up in 1960 to consider this matter, and representatives on that committee of all parties agreed with the· general principle, that the age of voting should be lowered from 21. I frankly con fess, Mr.

Speaker, that there was no unanimity as far as whether it should be 20 , 19 or 18, but according to the press report -- and I think that this is a true report of the committee con sideration of this matter -- it says that lower age for voting agreed, but the committee would not support the recommendation which happened to be moved by myself, to reduce the age limit. It may be interesting just to read a paragraph or two from this news report.

The report says, ''Voting age in Manitoba should be lower than 21 years, agreed members of a special Legislative Committee, Monday, but they didn't agree to the point of supporting a recommenda tion that the minimum voting age be lowered. Instead, Attorney-General Sterling Lyon will sound out other provinces and Ottawa on a lower voting age at the next Dominion-Provincial constitution talks slated for January 12th and 13th. The Committee of MLA's was set up to see if Manitoba's Elections Act needed streamlining.

They all spoke in favour of younger voters, but CCF House Leader, Russ Paulley•s motion, that the age be lowered to 18, was defeated six to two." My only supporter in the committee, Mr. Speaker, was my colleage from St. John's, Mr. Orlikow. The

article goes on further to say that the majority felt that they shouldn't recommend lowering the voting age to the Legislature, unless most of the provinces felt the same way. They wanted uniformity. This attitude was voiced by Opposition Leader Douglas April 6th, 1962 Page 1501

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) •••• Campbell, and Mr. Campbell, the Honourable Member for Lakeside, is quoted in this report as saying, "I am in favour of any voting age between 18 and 21 years, but only if more of the provinces than have indicated would support it." My colleague -- MR. CAMPBELL: That's pretty close. 1 MR. PAULLEY: My.colleague -- yes, but I'm going to have a comment on that in a mom ent. My colleague from St. John's stated, and I think correctly so, in reply to this, that if the principle is sound, we ought to proceed with lt.

There is a tremendous interest in high school and college in politics; then when they get out of school they can't vote. I think we should lower the age to 18 years. Then the

article goes on further to indicate support of all · political faiths in respect of this matter by stating in the

article that W. B� Scarth PC for River Heights felt they should recommend a lower age without delay. The Attorney-General is quot ed as admitting that legally some youths are infants when it comes to voting and adults in other respects, but the question had to be considered in its widest aspects. He preferred to take the· question to constitution talks to see if a meeting with other provinces could be arranged. ''We should leave this, " he is quoted as having said, "until we are definitely sure where we are going.

We should do a thorough job, a thorough and consistent job." He was supported by Liberal Leader Campbell. MR. CAMPBELL: A fine combination. MR. PAULLEY: Yes, like Gorgonzola cheese. Now, another two years almost was pass ed, or at least a year and a half. There was nothing done, to my knowledge, as a result of the amendment to the resolution that I referred to of 1954 or '55, as far as I am awa.re, and I believe a question was directed to the Honourable Attorney-General in the House last year, as to what has been done in regard to this matter, with negotiations between Ottawa or the other provinces.

I'm more than ever convinced that we should delay no longer. I have some support however, now, that I didn't have before of another political party here in the Pr ovince of Man itoba. A party who in some respects agreed, and yet at the same time, when it came down to a question of voting for or against the lowering of the voting age, invariably voted against it and I: ·refer, Mr. Speaker, to the Liberal Party of Manitoba.

Because now they have set themselves and their organization squarely on the record in respect of the lowering of the voting age to 18, as. a result of their annual convention held back in November of 1960, and I am quoting from the Winnipeg Tribune of November 21, 1960, and while this particular article, Mr. S!2 alter, deals with many questions, l am only going to refer to the

section which deals with the new policy of this "reborn party" as some like to refer to, at their convention. And I think it's most interesting to hear some of the comments of some of the prominent individuals of the Liberal Party, because some of them have been in the poli�ical life of thi!'J province for a long period of time; some are retired at the present time due to circumstances of having to face the voters at elections, and I want to make one or two quotes from this news report. ;T The headline on the column reads, "Parley backs lower voting age.

With strong support from an ex-premier, a former cabinet minister and a mayor, Manitoba Liberals, Saturday, threw their weight behind reducing the wting age to 18 from 21. Only a trickling of opposition faced the question when it came before the annual meeting of the Manitoba Liberal-Progress ive Association.

It was strongly endorsed by stuart Garson, a former Liberal premier who said, 'I often wonder whether youths are better able to vote than adults.' Another prominent Liberal, indeed one who ran for the leadership of the National Party of the Liberal Party at a convention�' -- we won't refer of course to the amount of support that he had at this conven tion; however he was a candidate for the national leadership -- "a chap by the name of Mayor H. L. Henderson of '>ortage la Prairie said, 'young people are very intelligent.

Anybody old enough to man a million dollar aircraft is old enough to put an "x" on paper.' " Then the

article goes on to say, Mr. Speaker, that the resolution was also supported by Lem Shuttle worth, Agriculture Minister in the former Campbell government. He did have a question as to the

preamble to the resolution which was subsequently deleted, and I think this is quite in teresting, because Mr. Shuttleworth questioned the

preamble which said, "whereas there are many intelligent and responsible people between the ages of 18 and 21 who are presently ·not franchised." Mr. Shuttleworth said that there was an inference here that among our young people there are some who are not intelligent. So the Association deleted the

preamble so that it was just a straight vote on the principle as to whether or not the voting age should be reduced Page 1502 April 6th, 1962

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) •••.•••.. from 21 to 18. Now then, we have argued in this House, on all sides, as tq.whether or not young men and young women under the ages of 21 are qualified to vote. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that there is no longer any argument. I am not going into all of the various proposals or arguments in favour of extending the franchise, such as the rights to defend, or the obligation to defend our country in time of warfare; not into the question too deeply as to their rights to become married; as to their rights to do other functions within the state.

I think now is the time that we should make up our minds on this question and our minds should be made up that the voting age could be reduced to the age of 18. We saw an example the other day in the voting on a Metro by-electi�n where all adults, including possibly some of us in this House, had an opportunity to exercise a franchise in respect of metro government and only voted to the extent of 20% in the excercise of their franchise. We have seen produc�s of our high schools and our colleges, ' demonstrations of a conclusive nature, of the abilities of our young citizens here in the Province of Manitoba.

The Honourable the Minister of Education points with pride to the increase in the number of students who are now attending high schools in Grade 11 and Grade 12 and also going into university, so I recommend, Mr. Speaker, to the House, consideration and adoption of the principle involved in this bill. We have had over the last number of years mock parliaments in our University of Manitoba. Over the years the Tuxis Boys have had mock parliaments.

The Junior Chambers of Commerce have had mock parliaments in an endeavour to educate the youth, both boys and girls of the Province of Manitoba, into their full responsibilities as members of the community, and I suggest that it is unfair to those who have such an active part and are playing such an active

part in the affairs of our province, that they should undertake these extra curricular activities and then have to wait a period of two or three years before they have the right to exercise their franchiSe in an election. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I recorn.mend the adoption of this bill to the House. As I have pointed out, the matter has been delayed on two or three occasions by reference to Ottawa, to the other provinces. I don't think that that is any longer necessary or desirable. I mentioned three of the provinces to the west of us that have provisions for varying age limits between .;.._ underneath 21.

It is time Manitoba joined in the recognition of the capabilities and the qualifi cations of our youth between the ages of 18 and 2L MR. HILLHOUSE: Would the Leader of the NDP permit a question? In those three western provinces where they have reduced the age limit below 21, have they reduced the age limit for running for election to the Legislative Assembly and have they reduced the age limit for voting at a municipal election? MR. PAULLEY: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I cannot correctly answer my honourable friend.

It is my impression that they have not reduced the age limit in respect of holding public office, · \ insofar as the legislatures are concerned in the province. I think I am correct in that. I am not fully aware of the situation insofar as municipalities are concerned. MR, HILLHOUSE: Do you know whether or no they have reduced the age limit, the legal age to enter a beer parlour? MR . PAULLEY: No, I don't think they have, Mr.

Speaker, but if I may answer to some de gree my honourable friend, insofar as liquor is concerned, the laws of the Province of Manitoba recognize that an individual of the age of 18 can participate in drinking liquor in our province, providing he has the consent of his parents and in his own home. So that is a breakthrough in respect of liquor and the point raised by my honourable friend. MR . SP EAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR . WRIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Member for St. John's that the debate be adjourned. Mr.

Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. COWAN presented Bill No. 62,

An Act to amend The Municipal Boundaries Act, for second reading. Mr. Speaker presented the motion. MR. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, this bill is simply for the purpose of changing the boundary of the Municipality of Rosser in accordance with another Act to be introduced amending the Winni peg Charter. The Municipality of Rosser and the City of Winnipeg have agreed whereby some 3,500 acres of land in the Rural Municipality of Rosser will become part of the City of Winnipeg. April 6th, 1962 Page 1503

(Mr. Cowan, cont'd) •••• They have worked out an agreement which is quite satisfactory to both municipalities and to the people living in that portion of Rosser, who then will be living in Winnipeg.

The Rural Municipality of Rosser wanted to keep their municipality as a Rural Municipality and not to become an urban area, and the City of Winnipeg wanted to increase the size of its city, so it is an arrangement which is of advantage to both, and when it goes to Law Amendments Committee I would think that we should consider it at t.he same time as the Winni peg Charter Amendment, so that the L;i.w Amendments Committee. can have both bills before it at the same .time, and the Winnipeg Charter amendments have already been printed and will likely be before this House for second reading early in the week. Mr.

Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion arrived. MR. SCARTH presented Bill No. 64,

An Act to amend The Public Schools Act (1), for .second reading, Mr •. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. J .D. WATT (Arthur) presented Bill No. 68,

An Act to incorporate Virden and District Elderly Persons Housing Corporation, for second reading. Mr. f1peaker presented the motion. MR . WATT: Mr. Speaker, this bill pretty well speaks for itself. These municipalities mentioned within the bill have asked that the bill be presented for the purpose of incorporating a senior citizens home area. I think possibly the main purpose of the bill comes under Sec tion (3) which .calla for the reapportionment of a debenture debt load at the end of a 5-year per iod •. ! think that's about all that I have on it. Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . A. H. CORBETT (Swan River) presented Bill No. 63,

An Act to validate By-law No. 147 of the Village of Benito; By-law No. 3/62 of the Town of Swan River; By-law No. 1404 of the Rural Municipality of Minitonas; By-law No. 1679 of the Rural Municipality of Swan River; and By-law No. 128 of the Village of Bowsman, for second reading. Mr. Speaker presented the motion. · MR.

CORBETT: This By-law was rendered necessary -- the five municipalities, the Rur al Municipality of Swan River, the Rural Municipality of Minitonas, the Town of Swan River, the Village of Benito and. the Village of Bowsman organized to build an elderly persons home and arranged to issue debentures for that purpose.

They issued debentures up to $143, OOO or they're in the process of being issued, and they found out when they got the building built they were a little short of money for furnishings, so they had to raise another $30, OOO, and this is the increase in the amount of the debenture issue that is necessary to completely finish the building. Mr. Speaker put the questionand after a voice vote declared the motion carried. · MR. HILLHOUSE presented Bill No.81,

an Act to amend The West Kildonan Charter and to amend

an Act Respecting Certain Orders of the· Winnipeg Suburban Municipal Board. for second reading� Mr. Speaker presented the motion. MR. HILLHOUSE:.Mr. Speaker, this.bill has received the unanimous consent and approv al of the West Kildonan Council, and to a certain extent represents an experiment in municipal government. As all members are aware, a newly elected councillor takes office under the Municipal Act on the lst of January.

Under Sections (1) and (2) of this Act, West Kildonan is having the terms of office expire on the 31st day of October in the year which they would ordin arily expire, and the reason for that is briefly this: that where you have an election of three councillors or three aldermen in one year -- well in each year you might say --and an election of a mayor every second year, it seems absurd that the three retiring aldermen should remain in office until the end of the year and the incoming aldermen not take over until the first of the year, because anybody who has any experience in municipal government knows that January and February in a municipal calendar are the busiest months of the year, because these are the months when you are considering estimates and getting your budget ready, and the West Kildonan Council has felt for some time that it would be a good idea for elected members of council to assume office on the first Tuesday of November and it would give them a breaking in period of two months.

So Sections (1) and (2) of the bill provide the necessary machinery to bring that into effection. Now Section (3) of the bill simply changes the nomination base to correspond to the Muni cipal Act, making it the first Wednesday in October, rather than the second. Page 1504 April 6th, 1962 ('I

(Mr. Hillhouse, cont'd) Section (4) of the bill amends Section (27) of the Charter. Section (27) of the Charter of West Kildonan gave the city power to Jorm a local improvement sewer district, but not power to form a local improvement sewer and water district.

Recently, we found, -- at least West Kildonan found -- when they entered into that big development agreement in which Old Kildonan Municipality is part and the Mun icipality of Rosser is another part, that a rural municipality possessed powers under the Municipal Act to establish a local improvement sewer and water district, and in order to have some continuity in the agreements that were executed we had to take unto ourselves the same power in that respect as possessed by a rural municipality. Sectipn (5) simply takes the new

Section (67a). West Kildonan and a number of other sub urban municipalities were; during the depression, placed under adminstration supervision and that was carried over to the Municipal Board. This discontinues that adminstration and super vision.

Section (67b) is to bring the West Kildonan Charter in line with the Winnipeg Charter, where by a clear majority on a money by-law will be suff icient to carry that by-law instead of a three-fifths majority. Section (6) simply deals with what bas to be done to take West Kildonan out of the supervi sion which was previously exercised over it by the Municipal Board. Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. KEITH ALEXANDER(Roblin) presented Bill No. 82,

An Act to erect The Village of Roblin into a Town and to enlarge the boundaries thereof and to amend The Municipal Boundar ies Act, for second reading. Mr. Speaker presented the motion. MR. ALEXANDER: Mr. SPeaker, I think earlier on in this Session the Honourable Leader of the NDP and the Honourable Member for St.

Vital established a precedent in the House that when you have a change of corporate status of a municipality that you have to give a very eloquent discourse on the history of the municipality or area, a very glowing description of the present situation, and paint a very optimistic picture of the future -- (interjection)-- Well I think mine is also going to be shorter than the past precedent even though I am outnumbered two to one. The Village of Roblin, Mr. Speaker, was incorporated by

an Act of the Legislature in 1913, and it was named after the then Premier of the Province, Sir Rodman P. Roblin, so I think it bears a very distinguished name in the present of Manitoba as well -- I couldn't resist that plug . I'd like to give a resume of the development of the. town the last few years. In 1945, the real estate assessment of the village was $284,5 25; 1962 assessment is $1,509,840 which is an increase of very near seven times, and I doubt whether there are very many towns in this area and this size that can match that rate of growth.

The business assessment in 1945 'was $22, 730; ,., the business assessment today $80, 540, a growth of nearly four times. The population in 1945 of 800 people; population in 1962 of 1,425. The assessment of the real estate to be added to the area is $50, 070 with a population of 63. Three years ago the Village undertook a water works and sewage program to the value of $345, 000.00. Since then they have added a $75,000 addition and this coming year they propose a program of $25, OOO in the area that is to be added to the present town boundaries.

I'd like to add that the town is situated very closely to the natural resources of the Duck Mountain area, and as such it is also -- I consider -- the gateway to one of the most beautiful tourisf areas in Manitoba. We quite often hear the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains talk about the Duck Mountains, but he quite often forgets that most of this area is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Roblin, and that it is more readily accessible via Grandview and Roblin. The town is located on the Junction of Highways No. 83 and No. 5.

As most members know, 83 is one of the main north-south arteries running from Mexico straight through up to the Canadian north, and Highway No. 5 is one of our main east-west interprovincial routes. I think when we consider the increasing importance today of highway facilities and highway trans portation we realize that the town is very strategically situated and I feel has an unlimited fu ture in its growth and development. The bill itself provides for the additional area to be brought into the town's boundaries from the municipality.

This area is presently adjacent to the town boundaries and is completely built up. I'd like to point out that all residents of the area petitioned for this change except for one April 6th, 1962 Page 1505

(Mr. Alexander, cont'd) .•••• businessman who has a garage in the present area, and I'll be able to give more details of that in committee. The resolution favouring this has been passed by the Rural Municipality concerned, also excluding this one lot of the garage, and this they're not opposing but they didn't pass in favour in deference to the wishes of the owner. The reso lution has also been passed by the town, and I think, Mr. Speaker, that I would like at this time to congratulate all those people who are involved in this situation.

I think we realize that it is not too often that we have a situation such as this with the changing of property from one municipal boundary to the other, where we have practically all people in agreement and both municipal corporations in agreement as well. I think they are to be congratulated for the fact that this has been settled without any resentment or any hard feeling on anybody's part, and I heartily recommend the bill to the committee. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. s. PETERS (Elmwood) presented Bill No. 83,

An Act to amend The Employment Standards Act, for second reading. Mr. Speaker presented the motion. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, before you put the question or take the yeas and nays finally, I wonder if you would read it again. I must confess I didn't hear it. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 83, an· Act to amend The Employment Standards Act be now read a second time. Are you ready for the question? MR . PETERS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, in my opinion, when the Minimum Wage Board meets they don't get enough guidance from the Legislature, and it seems that when they do meet they always seem to take the impression that all that's needed to set a minimum wage is the barest necessities of life. And we tried, in my opinion -- what I'm trying to do with this amendment is to give the Minimum Wage Board a little more guidance and something more to work with. We spell out exactly what we feel is needed for a person earning a minimum wage. MR . GROVES: Would the honourable member permit a question? MR. PETERS: Certainly. MR.

GROVES: I have three short questions that I'd like to ask. First of all, could this wording, in your opinion, result in a higher miµimum wage than the wording that is presently in the Act, and if that is so, why do you think so. And why do you have the reference in here to funerals? MR. PETERS: If you're working and you need a minimum wage, you should also be able to provide for a funeral. The answer to your question is yes. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. GROVES: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre that the debate be adjourned. Mr.

Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . COWAN presented Bill No. 97,

an Act to validate By-law No. 4502 of the Rural Muni-· cipality of Fort Garry, for second reading. Mr. Speaker presented the motion. MR. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, the Municipality of Fort Garry installed storm sewer mains and street paving on some streets in the Village of St. Norbert, and they assessed the cost of these improvements on a frontage basis payable all in one year. This was done because cer tain developers were developing land along these streets and they wished to be able to sell the houses with all improvements paid.

However, there were also on these streets old-time resi dents who certainly couldn't afford to pay all of these local improvement costs in one year.Be cause the assessment had already been made it couldn't be changed, and this Act is necessary in order that these old-time residents can pay for these improvements over a 15-year period. In the by-law which forms part of the bill there is set forth a

schedule showing the various amounts to be paid by the various old-time residents who are affected by these new improve ments. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, if you would be kind enough now to call the adjourned debate on amendment to The Labour Relations Act standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Elm wood. MR. PETERS: I was going to ask this matter to stand. Page 1506 April 6th, 1962 (JI

MR. ROBLIN: I think we'd better call it anyway, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 102, adjourned <J.ebate on the motion of the Hon ourable Minister of Labour. Second reading of Bill No. 102,

an Act to amend The Labour Re lations Act. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. PETERS: Mr. Speaker, unless anyone else cares to speak on this bill at this time, I would ask the indulgence of the House to have the matter stand. MR . SPEAKER: Order stand. Committee of Supply. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney-Gen eral, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr.

Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. MR . CHAIRMAN: Department VII - Attorney-General. Resolution No. 38. MR. LYON: At the outset, Mr. Chairman, I welc;ome the opportunity of being able to make a few general remarks with respect to the estimates which are before Committee for consider ation.

I suppose the most salutary remark I can make is to ,point out to members of the Com mittee that the estimates for the total operations of the department this year exceed the esti mates of the last fiscal year by approximately $500,000, just a\little over a half million dollars. I hope that honourable members of the committee will see that this money is being devoted to the proper sources and to the proper programs for which this department has resonsibility. I don't believe I need remind honourable members, Mr.

Chairm_a;n, that the main function of the Department of the Attorney-General is the administration of justice, both civil and crimin al, in this province. Nor is there any need to dwell upon the fundamental importance of this function in any democratic society. Suffice it to say that the proper enforcement of justice is one of the bedrock qualities that one looks to in a functioning efficient democracy.

I think that we can say, with no partisan sense whatsoever, that Manitoba at the present time, and indeed over the years in the past -- and we certainly hope in the future -- will continue to have that high standard of law enforcement and administration of justice which the people of this province have come to expect. While dealing with this subject, Mr. Chairman, it affords me the oppor tunity of paying some small tribute to the staff of the department for the work that they do from day to day to carry out this most important function. I start with the Deputy Minister, Briga dier Orville Kay, Q.

C., who has been with our department now for approximately 35 years, and I can say personally -- I know I speak for at least one other member of this House, the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains, and certainly the Honourable Member for Lakeside would know as well -- that Manitoba has, in him, one of the most devoted, certainly' one of the most capable civil servants that it could hope to have serving the people of this province.

Under the Deputy Minister we have the legal staff; the staff of the various Land Title offices, the court staff, the judicial officers, the corrections staff, and all of the various men and women who service this most important function. And each of him plays his individual role in ensuring that the law is administered properly and that justice is given according to the best traditions of this country.

It is a privilege to work with a staff of this kind and certainly I think that the mem bers of the committee -- we deserve a few moments in committee to pay them their just tribute at the beginning of the discussion of these estimates. If I may, Mr.

Chairman, I should like to add a word as well about another very important branch of the administration of justice in Manitoba, a branch that does not come within the direct purview of the department in that they are not staff members of the department, but I refer, of course, to the various police services of this province who carry on the enforcement of the law in Manitoba: the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, acting in their role as federal, provincial and mun icipal police; the City of Winnipeg Police Department; and the other Metropoli.tan police de partments that operate within Metropolitan Winnipeg; and of course, the various municipal police departments which operate in some communities outside the metropolitan area.

I think that Manitoba can rightfully be proud of the quality and type of police service that we have had over the past number of years and that we can look forward to having in the. future. Mentioning only the two major departments, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the City of Winnipeg Police Department, I sometimes wonder if we fully appreciate the contribution that they make April 6th, 1962 Page 1507 I i I ·.I ! ! !

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd) •.• ••••• to the maintenance of law and order in our community, because I think all of us would agree with the statement that has become almost axiomatic, that the greatest deterrent to criminal elements and to increased crime in any western civilization or · any western civilized country is the existence of a good police force which is able to encounter the criminal eleme.nt and to bring them to justice quickly. The expeditious bringing to justice of the criminal element is certainly something that we have a good record to our credit in Mani tob:;t. Police work is extremely difficult.

They must maintain a constant surveillance on that very small proportion of our population who are bent on wrongdoing. In addition, they have all the multitudinous duties, the protection of life, limb and property. If you go away fov the sum mer for a two-week holiday you know you can phQne up the police in your area and they'll find time somehow to keep a check on your home. These are just some of the ordinary duties that they do.

In addition, they must deal with all manners of crime ranging from very serious off ences of murder, rape and treason, right on down through the full gamut of them to traffic tick ets and so on. and I suggest, Sir, that it requires a great deal of patienci;i, understanding, dis cipline and efficiency for the police to carry onin the fashionthat theydo. With respect to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the City of Winnipeg Police department, I feel that we can say in Manitoba we have two of the finest services that a province could hope to have in those two major forces.

Now Sir, I would like to say a word or two at.the beginning of my remarks about the Law Reform Committee to which reference was made in the Throne Speech. This committee, mem bership for which is being solicited at the present time, will be set up shortly. It.will consist of leading barristers and solicitors of the Province of Manitoba from the Metropolitan Winnipeg area and from other parts of Manitoba. It is our intention to have this committee meet.at regu lar intervals. The- Legislative Counsel will become the permanent secretary of the committee.

The Uniform Law Commissioner will sit as a member of the committee. Representatives from the legislation committees of the Law Society and the Manitoba Bar Association; the Presidents of each of those two committees will be ex-officio members of the Law Reform Committee.

The work they will do will be that of giving counsel and advice on statutes protecting the legal rights of our citizens, and they will have the authority., which will be invested in them, to initiate discussions on any other points affecting legal rights of the citizens of this province and relat ing to the laws of the province, keeping them abreast of legal decisions made by our courts and other matters which come to their attention. I am sure that this committee will provide a splendid fund of advice for the benefit, not only of the department or the government, but in deed for the whole Province of Manitoba.

I am sure that the work of this committee will prove to be· a benefit to the province. I take this opportunity of expressing my appreciation to those persons who have agreed, to date, to volunteer their services on this committee and to meet at regular intervals in this cause. I should like to say a word or two as well, Mr. Chairman, about the Magistrate Courts· in Manitoba. I should say, first of all, that there will be again this year another conference, either of two or three days' duration, of all of the police magistrates of our province.

This will be the third conference of this nature since I have haj the honour to hold this portfolio, and I would say, Sir, that these conferences fulfill a very important function indeed, because it per mits the magistrates to get together in an informal atmosphere and to discuss the various prob lems which magistrates face in the various communities of our province. It serves particularly to help them correlate their ideas on sentencing practice.

In turn it gives the department the opportunity to keep the courts abreast of what the aims of the department are in the correction al field, and it gives the opportunity for outside agencies, such as the John Howard Elizabeth Fry Society and other groups, to come before this group of magistrates to tell of the work that th ey do and to explain generally what their aims and ideas are and of the assistance which they can render to the various courts and judicial officers of this province.

Another function that occurs during these magistrates' conferences is the visit to the various institutions to which they have occasion to sentence persons either in their capacities as juvenile court judges or in their capacities as police magistrates. We think, in line with the recommendations of the Fauteux report some years ago, that this in itself, if they met for no other reason but to visit institutions, this.in itself would justify the meetings that they have, because it is only with the co-operation of the courts that you can have any form of a correctional program in the Page 1508 April 6th, 1962

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd) •••••. jurisdiction . I can say, Mr. Chairman, without too much fear of contradiction, that we have a high standard of persons serving iJl the judicial functions in the police magistrates courts in this province . I wish to pay tribute to them as well for the work that they' do, day by day , without much heraldry or without much attention from the public or from the press , of carrying on the work that they do and administering justice , dispensing justice throughout the various courts -- police magistrates courts -- in this province . I should mention as well , Mr .

Chairman, that there is an addition in the est imates this year of a new circuit magistrate for the rural St. Boniface area. We anticipate that this new appointment will service on a part-time basis , the courts of Steinbach, Ste . Anne and St. Pierre, and the est ablishment is provided for in the current esti mate s. In ad dition to that, pay increases for the police magistrates, that is , those who work on a part-time basis for the government, are included in the present est imates and will be accorded to them the begin ning of the present fiscal year. I think a word or two might be in order now, Mr .

Chairman, on the question of legal aid. In the course of the Throne Speech mention was made of this subject to the effect that the de partment was working in co- operation with the Law Society of Manitoba to extend the present program of legal aid to all parts of the province . May I stress at the outset, Sir , that this is a program of the Law Society of Manitoba, and that the role of the government and of this de partment is supplementary to that played by the Law Society which is the governing body of the legal profession in this province.

We like to feel in the department that we are co-operating to the fullest extent in this function which has long been carried on by the Law Society but which is now being expanded and extended into new areas. This legal aid program, which as I said, has existed for a number of years , has two branches, the civil and the criminal.

The system works generally in this way; a roster of lawyers is prepared from among tho se who volunteer from the profession to do free legal work , civil or criminal, for any citizen who is prevented because of financial means from obtaining or se curing his rights , civil or criminal , in the courts .

The civil program again is a program that is very seldom heard or talked about, but every Monday night a chairman of the committee and a number of lawyers who have volunteered for this work, sit down in the Law Courts Building and hear applications by persons who deem themselves to be indigent and who feel that they have some wrong that should be redressed through the courts or feel that they are in need of legal advice.

The work of the committee then is to determine the question of indigency and then to determine whether or not a case exists or whethe r or not there is a wrong to be redressed; if so , to ass ign a barrister or a solici tor to act for no charge to the client. Of course they run through the whole gamut of actions, from trespass to divorce, to land titles work, estate work, family court work and so on, and there are large numbers being interviewed each Monday night.

The society has not kept up-to-date statistics with respect to this matte r over the years, although this committee has been opera ting for some considerable time -- the civil committee -- but I can tell the members of the co mmittee that they heard and processed from March 31, 1961, they heard some 619 applica tions from various persons on matters ranging from divorce , marital problems, financial problems, accidents , real property estates, landlords and tenants , wages, misce llaneous and so on, and certificates were granted in approximately 215 of those cases or of those applications , a lawyer was assigned to carry on, either in court or through the -- whatever process was re quired, to act on behalf of this person for no fee .

Remembe r, again I'm speaking only of the civil work, and I spend some ti..Tile on that because this is very important to the public of the province and I feel that some attention should be paid to the role that the Society is playing in this area, in our province . Now the other role which we hear more of, is the complimentary role that the Law Soc iety plays with respect to free legal assistance in the criminal field. The statistics in that field are equally interesting, Mr. Chairman. Up until 1960 there was no attempt to keep statistics show ing the number of cases taken.

However, in 1960, over 266 reque sts were received in Great- er Winnipeg and these requests were answered. In 1961, during the past calendar year some thing like 268 requests were received from the various courts in Winnipeg; the major court , of course , being the City of Winnipeg Magistrates Court . In addition, counsel were provided in cases at Selkirk, Portage la Prairie, Brandon and Dauphin by the Society last year. I should mention to the committ ee , Mr. Chairman, that the Society presently has a roster April 6th, 1962 Page 1509

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd) ••••••••• of some 93 members who have agreed to participate in this program of criminal assistance, criminal advisory capacity to persons requesting assistance, and that leads me in turn into the program, the new and extended program by which the Department of the Attorney-General is extending assistance to the Law Society in order that this program may reach all parts of the province. The following are the proposals that have been agreed upon between the Law Society and the government and which are in operation at the present time.

Counsel appointed to indigent accused -- indigents accused of indictable ·offenses -- will act without fee in police courts. That is the generaLarraµgament that prevails at the present time.

Where the Legal Aid Committee -- and again I am always speaking here on the criminal side.- certify to the department that a person accused of an indictable offense has been committed for trial, is indigent, should have counsel, and where they appoint counsel to represent him, the department will provide a copy of the evidence taken at the preliminary hearing, free of charge to counsel representing the indigent person on trial in the County Court Judges Criminal Court, the Assize Court or the Court of Queen's Bench Assize Court.

Where a person has been con victed of an indictable offence in the Police Magistrates Court, County Court Judges Criminal Court or in the Assize Court, and the Legal Aid Committee certifies to the department that there are reasonable grounds of appeal, that the conviction should be appealed, the department will provide transcriptions of trial evidence on the appe al. Counsel appointed to represent indigent accused in areas outside of the Metropolitan area where local counsel are not available will be paid all out-of-pocket and travelling expenses by the department.

The department will also pay per diem counsel fees to counsel appointed by the courts to represent indigent accused per sons on trials in the County Court Judges Criminal Court, the Assize Court and the Court of Appeal, provided always that the committee certify to the department that the accused is an indigent person requiring this assistance. And so I think members of the committee will see immediately, Mr .

Chairman, that this assistance which the department is now rendering to the Law Society will cover, I think, the bulk of those cases of serious import, the indictable offences, in all of the courts of the pro vince. I should mention as well that letters have gone forward to all of the Crown Attorneys in Manitoba, advising them of the department's ;role in this program of the Law Society, and soliciting their co-operation and assistance in carrying out this new program in all parts of the province.

Members of the committee will recall that this program has been in operation in the City of Winnipeg Magistrates· court now for some two years and certainly the need is more apparent there because it's the largest court in the province than the need will be elsewhere, but the fact is now that where possible the service will be made available on call to all parts of the province where it is requested. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I should like to move more particularly into the general field of , corrections, a�d make a few statements with respect to what is involved in the estimates this year and what programs are contemplated for the present fiscal year. I think there are two improvements of general inte,rest to the whole field which will find ap proval among members of the committee. First of all, there will be for the first time provision for a full-time chaplaincy service to the provincial correctional institutions in Manitoba.

It is the intention of the depart ment to take on staff -- if that is the proper terminology -- a representative of the clergy of the Roman Catholic faith and a representative of the clergy of the Protestant faith to head up and give direction to chaplaincy services for the whole correctional program in Manitoba. Pre sent. plans call for the location of the chaplains at Headingley Gaol but their responsibility, of course, will extend to the whole province. As we envisage it, the program will involve the following items.

They will give direction and organize a full program of spiritual guidance for all institutions operated by the department. They will assist in the organization and giving of direction to local chaplain services to institutions outside of the metropolitan area. They will conduct, of course, worship services in institutions -- Headingley and the other institutions - from time to time themselves, and they will of course provide constant available counselling and guidance service to inmates at the provincial institutions in Manitoba . I may say, Mr .

Chairman, that this program has been involved in the fullest co-operation with the Winnipeg Council of Churches representing the major churches in the province. I must take this opportunity to commend them for their interest, for their co-operation, and look for ward to their assistance and their ideas in the establishment of this new program. I may say that Page 1510 April 6th, 1962

(Mr . Lyon, cont'd) ••••. •• plans for the future , although not contemplated in the estimates, plans for the future will call for the building .Of a chapel at the �adingley Gaol site. It is the intention at the pre sent time, subject to advice we receive in the future, to have the two perm anent chaplains located in the chapel building -- that is their offices and so on in that building -- and that they will operate from this chapel site and from the business offices in the chapel at the Headingley Gaol. At the same time as I mention this program , Mr.

Chairman, I take pleasure in mentioning the splendid services that.are being carried on, on a completely volun tary basis at the pre sent time, by the Salvation Army, the Anglican, the Roman Catholic, the United Church and other church pastors in the Province of Manitoba, who are presen tly giving or ho�ding spiritual church services at the various institutions . Certainly this program will continue. It is our hope that by adding the two full-time chaplains to the staff that we can give direction to this program which has been operating, I must say, extremely well on a completely voluntary basis heretofore.

Another item I should like to mention in the general field is that provision is made in the es timates to provide for the first student training unit from the School of Social Work at the University of Manitoba, within the department.

In co-operation with the School of Social Work we will set up in· the Winnipeg Juvenile and Family Court starting with the Fall semester in September of this year, a training unit which will enable four or Six social work students to receive prac;tical field work training and eiwerience iii the field of corrections as part of their . training leading to a Bachelor or Master of Social Work degree.

This new unit will not fill an urgent need for additional field work placements available to students of the School of Social Work, but it will at the same time increase the variety of field work placements that are avail able . In addition, it will· provide a much closer liaison between the Corrections Branch and the School of Social Work from which school is drawn the major proportion of our trained social work personnel in this field.

I think we can also over the years look to benefits from research · projects that might be. carried on by this training unit, and as well of course, we can hope that students will be interested in a career in corrections as a result cif the training that they receive . I think that this is an altogether commendable addition to the program and I wish to thank the Manitoba Committee on Education in Training and Corrections for the assistance that they have rendered to the department in connection with this new program which is being added. Continuing, Mr.

Chairman, in a very general way, I think I can say that one of the great needs in the province at the pres ent time is the provision of a "Young Offenders" unit to house inmates between the ages of 16 and 25 who are sentenced to terms of imprisonment. Such units would permit of segregation and specialized treatment of youthful first offenders ; it would per mit of specialized trades and counselling staffs to deal with these young men during their period of incarceration .

If such a unit were in Manitoba, it would permit of the reduction Of the ju venile age from 18 to 16 , because the unit in contemplation would take young boys and men be tween the ages of 16 to 25 as I have mentioned.

This in turn would permit the Manitoba Home for Boys reducing its population by at least a third, again if such a unit existed here , and would permit in that institution of a much more intensified program for boys there between 12 to 16 which is the age group generaliy believed to be capable of more uniform treatment and better treatment so long as they're not associated with the older group from 16 to 18.

It would have an additional benefit, of course, of reducing the population at Headingley Gaol where a large portion of the population is of this particular age group, and hence would enhance the ability of the staff at Headingley Gaol to provide a better program there. Thus, I think that all mem bers would agree with me that in all respects the provision of such a unit in Manitoba would be a most desirable and much -needed addition to the program.

In our studies surrounding the question of a Young Offenders unit, we have found that the bulk of the persons from the present population who would be eligible for such training would be the responsibility of the federal government, when the Fauteux plan is finally implemented by the federal government. In other words , the majority of the persons in this age group serve sentences according to present population figures and experiences of over one year . We are therefore , Mr .

Chairman, now in negotiation with the Department of Justice at Ottawa, whereby we are requesting the federal government to build in Manitoba at once a Young Offenders unit as part of their institutional expansion program across Canada. We met only a few days ago with the Commissioner of Pen itentiaries on this topic and we are encouraged to learn from a report of olily a few days ago April 6th, 1962 Page 15ll ·1 i ·� !

(Mr . Lyon, cont'd) , , , •• ••.• that the federal department recently announced their early inten tion to construct four such new units across Canada . Well, unfortunately, I can give no unde r taking as to the success of our submission at this state.

We feel that we do have an excellent case for the building of such a unit in Manitoba, and certainly within the near future, Pending the implementation of the Fauteux Plan, Manitoba of course could commit inmates who are of provincial responsibility to such an institution on a per diem cost basis; that is , paying the federal government authorities the cost of handling oi; maintaining provincial inmates in a federal institution. la m ·sure that this proposal which would be of inestimable benefit to the whole correctional program in Manitoba will receive approval on all sides of the House and I'm sure that I have the best wishes of all sides of the Hous.e as we carry forward these negotia tions.

I come now, Mr. Chairman, to the question of the Po;rtage Gaol for Women and the Womens' Gaol at The Pas. Members of the committee will .recall that the department has been giving consider ation to the problems created by the increasing number of ·women l;>eing committed to the Portage Gaol for Women. During the past three years the daily population of that institution has averaged somewhere between 65 and 70. The recommended population for this institution which is adm ittedly an old building is approximately 45 to 50; having regard to the facilities that are available .

Some of t.he facts that I think will be of interest to members of the committee :-;... and .. whioJr they•shoul-d·keep--·in mind' in discussing this ·question of -femaJ.e··detention ·m· Manitoba .... are as follows. First, women of Indian or Metis. background unfortunately oompose approximate ly 80 percent of the. population at fue Portage la Prairie Gaol for Women. On the average about one-half of the average population in that institution is committed there from the northern areas of our province .

Of those inmates who are committed from northern Manitoba, almost 100 per cent are of Indian or Metis background . The first factor fuat I think members of the committee should keep in mind is this: The average sentence of women committed to this institution at the present time is about 45 to 48 days _ _: that is the average length of sentence for which we have these girls and women at that institution. The majority of the women committed there , again most unfortunately, have little or no formal education .

The length of confinement is so short as to permit of only a very limited interest on the part of the inmates in any academic courses by correspondence or otherwise . One of the staff members who was a former school teacher is there and available to give these courses, but little interest is displaye d. Hobbycraft or other simple recreations are other items in which the interest span of the inmates is unfortunate ly quite limited. Attempts are made from time to time to interest the inmates in art classes and gymnastics but these again unfortunately have not been suitable .

The teaching of basi.c household skills such as cleanliness, sanitation, k.itchen dutie s are stressed since the majority of the inmates have little training in even these basic tasks. Now with this basic background of facts in mind, Mr. Chairman-, I think it's at once apparent that the problem facing those charged with the responsibility for the rehabilitation of these women -- particularly the women of Indian and Metis descent from northern Manitoba -- is a profound one ind eed, and I think that that if anything is an Unde rstatement.

Having regard to the fact that the bulk of these women originating from northern Manitoba are incarcerated on liquor offences or morals offences and that there is a large amount of mon ey spent annually on escorting female prisoners to and from No rthern Manitoba to the Portage Gaol, and having in mind of course the further fact that there isn't a general absence of any requirement for maximum security -- the most of those committed from Northern Manitoba, the department as announced in the Throne Speech will undertake in 1962 to build a new mini mum security womens gaol at The Pas, Present plans call for this to be a prefabricated struct ure to be erected to provide minimum security accommodation for a maximum of approximately 40 female inmates.

A total of nine new positions is provide d for. in the estimates, comprising a superintendent, seven wardre ssess -- members will realize that the numbers required must be multiplied by three , beca use you have three shifts of personnel on a 24-hour basis to attend to the persons incarcerated -- and a cook. Because the bulk of the women who will utilize this facility will be, again unfortunately, either nearly or totally illiterate, a program will be undertaken to teach them basic reading, writing and very simple arithmetic at the most elemen tary level.

Instruction will also be provided in personal hygiene and health. It must be remem bered , Mr. Chairman, at all times, that these inmates will in all probability be incarcerated Page 1512 April 6th, 1962

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd) •..•. up there , as down here , for extremely short terms, and any instruc tional program again is necessa rily limited by this fact. I shollold mention as well that provi sion is made in the es timates for the establi shment of a full-time probation office r at The Pas to assist in the responsibilities in this area which are pres ently carried on by a probation officer on staff who is located in Flin Flon and serves The Fas as well .

It is anticipated that this new appointment will permit of a much more intensified attack on the correctional prob lems in this area, which I must say are out of all proportion to the population that lives in that area. It is an ticipated that this new facility at The Pas will relieve very greatly the over crowding at the Portage Gaol for Women and will permit the staff at that institution in turn to provide a. better all-round program for the more limited number of inmates which it is expected they will have to care for. I am sure that the House will agree , the committee will agr ee, Mr.

Chairm an, that this extension to the correctional facilities of our province is long overdue and that it will meet an ever-g rowing need, espe cially among our Indian and Metis pcpulation in Northern Manitoba who run afoul of the law and are incarcerated. It is our hope that the future will see the development of a form of Indian- Metis Friendship Centre at The Pas which will work in full conjunction with this new detention facility in an attempt to rehabilitate those women who are committed to the institution. Members will also see from the estimates Mr.

Chairman, that there are two additional staff members being provided for the Portage Gaol for Women , a Wardress IV to as sume the duties of a night supervisor in place of the Superintendent , and a handicraft instructress who will undertake a more intensified pro gram for short term inmates in sewing, hairdressing and other handicraft and hobby activities. And here let me pause just for a moment, Mr. Chair man , to pay a small word of tribute to the superintendent at that institution. I refer to Miss Jessie McPherson who has be�n on the staff of this department for a goodly number of years.

I think she per haps typifies the type of devoted person that I spoke of earlier in my remarks . She has carried on in that institution for a number of years under , I must say, the most trying circumstances, and notwithstanding all of the problems that she has -- I must say that when you go to the institution and notwithstanding the fact that it is an old building and so on, that she has an over-crowding problem and so on, she always takes a personal interest in each of the girls committed to the institution .

She does what she can for them during the limited time that they are with her, and generally speaking she runs what some navy types might call "a very tight ship" under extremely tough circumstances , and certainly I think that she is the type of person who typifies the devoted staff member that we were -'- the type of staff that we have on the department, and I pause to single her her out.

There are many others , but I pause to si ngle her out, because of the tremendous contribution that she has made in the correctional field over the years that she has been with us . ' Dealing now more generally on the question of gaols there is some general information which might be of interest to the committee, Mr. Chairman. The estimated daily average popu lation of the various gaols at Headingley , Dauphin , The fa s, Brandon and Portage during the past fiscal year was 701.

This figure includes inmates from Headingley , Dauphin and Brandon who volunteer and are placed in the three rehabilitation camps which are operated in conjunc tion with the provincial gaol system. Populations in the various gaols as of February , 1962 were as follows: Headingley, 484; Dauphin, 61; The Pas, 27; Brandon, 76; Portage, 56 .

As a result of the addition of the two new camps at Bannock Point in the Whiteshell and at Cache Lake in the famous Duck Mountains, which are now operating with a full complement of staff and trainees , we can make the statement that approximately 20% of our adult male population in Man itoba is capable now of being removed from the gaol atmosphere and being placed in the mini mum security environment of a rehabilitation camp .

From the figures that are available across Canada it would appear that the camp program operated by this department is now one of the most extensive of any jurisd iction in Canada having regard to numbers of population and the facilities or the capabilities of handling pers onnel at the three camps . Each camp has a maximum inmate population of 40. Building for the two latest camps were prefabricated by trainee labour in the case of the Bannock Point c·arnp at Falcon Lake and in the case of the Cache Lake Camp at Headingley Gaol .

These prefabricated buildings were then transported and erected on the carnpsite by trainees under the supervision of departmental staff perso nnel . It's not necessary at this time , Mr. Chairman, to rehearse the work program April 6th, 1962 Page 1513

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd) ••••. carried on in the various camps since this has been adequately cover ed in estimates in previous years. Suffice it to say that with the full co-operation of the Depart ment of Mines and Natural Resources, a tremendous amount of productive work on behalf of the citizens of the province has been and will be carried out by the trainees under. guidance by staff members from the two departments.

As far as sanitation,reforestation, basic instruction in fire-fighting techniques plus a myriad of other general improvements to our forest recrea tional areas are being carried on daily by the work forces employed in these three key areas. We continue the practice of paying the trainees 75� per day and they work on the basis of a six day week. I am happy to report to the committee, Mr. Chairman, that of the 584 men who have been transferred to camps since this program was initiated in 1959 , only three have been charged with escaping from lawful custody.

The general atmosphere and morale of the stiff and the trainees is exceptionally high at all of the camps. The staff and the government are exceedingly well satisfied with the results to date of this program. It is proving to be one of the soundest investments that could be made in the correctional field in terms of, first of all, benefits to the trainees, to say nothing of the by-product benefits which occur to the province in the form of new campsites, better forest areas for recreation development.

Another very important by-product effect results from the reduction in population in those institutions from which the trainees come. As an example in the case of Headingley Gaol, you recall I gave you the gross fig ures before of the populations at Headingley Gaol. The average· estimated daily population; as I mentioned, was some 484 to 490 men during the past year.

However, because of the ex istence of the two rehabilitation camps in the Whiteshell it is now possible to keep Headingley Gaol population down to approximately 400 men per day, even when the gross population would be running to about 490, after taking into account the fact that ten or eleven trustees from Headingley Gaol are maintained at the voluntary detention quarters.

Results of reduction in . gaol population at Dauphin has also been beneficial to the gaol adminstration there, both from the standpoint of keeping their population at a stable level and from the further aspect of obviat ing the necessity of regular transfers of inmates from that institution to Headingley Gaol, which was certainly the practice in the past.

We have.also been able to select trainees from Brandon Gaol for the Cache Lake camp, but the bulk of the trainees at the Cache Lake camp come from the Dauphin institution directly to the camp. · You will note an increase in staff requirements in the estimates to provide 12 new positions for the two new camps. Six of these positions were filled out of the existing staff and six new personnel were taken on and were given approximately one month's training at Headingley Gaol before being assigned to their camp positions at the two new camps which were formed. I mentioned earlier, Mr.

Chairman, that the trainees at the various camps receive basic training in forest fire fighting. During this past summer when t.he forest fires were at their height , the trainees at Falcon Lake were of great assistance to the Forestry Branch in fighting fires in the Whiteshell. In ad,dition tci the inmates from the Falcon Lake Camp, numbering about 30, a further 40 inmates volunteered from Headingley to fight fires, and were transported to the Falcon Lake camp and operated from that base headquarters during the height of the conflagration in that area.

I believe at one time -- and I'm only taking this figure from the air - that there were as many as 100 to 110 inmates of Headingley and/or the Falcon Lake Camp in the Whiteshell fighting fires when they were at their worst. The Director of Corrections, I can also report, has inaugurated regular staff meetings of camp supervisors, gaol superintendents and departmental staff, along with representatives from the Department of Mines in order to continue an assessment of this program and to stud,y and discuss improvements that may be made. Dealing particularly now with Headingley Gaol, Mr .

Chairman, there are three important new additions to staff which are being provided for in the estimates before you. Firstly, a Classification Officer, a trained social worker, will be taken on staff; his duties will largely involve reviewing of pre-sentence reports, interviewing of new inmates and the determination of what type of vocational or other work the inmates should be assigned to in the institution or camp It is hoped as well that he will be able to do some counselling work among inmates.

Secondly, a full time sports and hobbycraft staff member is provided for, to give over-all direction to recreation and hobbycraft programs within the institution. Thirdly, a Page 1514 April 6th, 1962

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd. ) • • • • barber instructor will be taken on staff to establish a new course of instruction for the training of licensed barbers within.the institution. It is our plan to provide the space and equipment for the establishment of a three-chair barber shop in Headingley institution, and courses, both theoretical and practical, will be given by the instruc tor, leading we hope for the eventual licensing of the trainees in this trade as licensed barbers.

I may say that this type of trade training has proved extremely popular in other institutions in other jurisdictions -- extremely popular among the inmates, and it has the additional benefit that the inmates on relief are able, generally speaking , to obtain gainful employment very quickly as a result of being able to work in these trades and being licensed for them. Dealing with the gaol at The Pas, Mr. Chairman, that is the existing gaol at The Pas and the communj,j;y-·building. Renovations to that building were completed last year, enlarging the capacity of that institution from 14 to 38 inmates.

New kitchen and dining facilities were added as well , and provision ii> made in the present estimates for four new guard officers to replace casual help used in the past, and a guard officer cook to be in charge of the kitchen and the messing facilities in that institution. May I remind members of the committee that this gaol is really a short-term detention facility, housing inmates serving terms of up to 30 days. In mantes sentenced, in northern Manitoba, to longer terms are generally sent to Dauphin Gaol for those terms.

There are some other small capital changes that are being made with re- ·� spect··to itlstitutfotrs, an" exai'hple df which is at.B randon where·'ptovision is made for''a hew 'en larged recreation area to fulfil a long-standing need for outdoor space at that institution. I can mention as well , Mr; Chairman, that during the past year facilities have been pro vided in ·both Dauphin and Brandon for the temporary custody of juveniles on remand for await ing ap:pearance in Juvenile Court. These facilities likewise have been needed for some time.

Whil,Ef they are not expensive they are separate from all other adult institutions. In both cases they have been arranged for in the Court Houses located in those two centres, and in both cases they are as much as across the hall from the office of the probation officer who services and works in Brandon and Dauphin. Coming to the Juvenile Boys Detention Home, or the Juvenile Detention Home at Vaughan Street , Mr. Chairman, a number of the members of the House had the opportunity of touring the detention home at Vaughan Street just approximately a week ago .

While the average length of stay for a juvenile boy at that home is approximately four to five days during the calender year 1961, although the overnight population is approximately 13 to 15 on the average, it is felt that boys confined temporarily to this institution and girls confined to the similar institution in the .other wing of the building should have regular and continuously available counselling, guid ance and recreational supervision available to them .I t should be remembered always, of course, that boys and girls in the detention home are seen during the day by the probation st'affs who are housed immediately above them, as members of the Committee saw -- that is, those who were over there -- and most cases are seen by the departmental psychiatrist whose office is also located in the same building.

Duties of the counsellor for these two detention facilities will be to act as generally a counsellor to juveniles brought into custody and to their parents to maintain liaison between the detention home and various police departments, and I think as im portant as anything, to set up an activity program including outdoor exercise for juveniles in custody. As soon as this counsellor is taken on staff, regular outdoor exercise periods will be arranged in the exercise yard at the rear of the facility. I am glad my honourable friend asked me the question because I wa s just corning to the answer.

I should also mention in this connec tion that an administrative change will be made with respect to the two juvenile detention facili ties in that the chief juvenile probation officer will, in addition to his regular responsibilities, assume those of the person in charge of the two detention facilities and will have charge of any staff assigned to them.

It's felt that this administrative change will be in the best interest of the boys and girls committed to this detention home and will have the additional benefit of in suring that there is as close liaison as possible between the probation staff and those in the detention unit. I should mention, in a general way dealing with these remand facilities, that one of the department's main aims, in fact I think it's one of the more basic aims that we are always striving to achieve, is to keep children, boys or girls out of the detention facility.

Our staff enjoy very close co-operation with the City of Winnipeg Police Department and the Police April 6th, 1962 Page 1515 .. . �·

(Mr. Lyon , cont' d.) . . . . . Departments in Greater Winn ipeg and the RCMP, but still we will conttil.ue to work toward the goal that no child be committed to the detention facility unle ss it's absolutely nece ssary in the inte rest of the child or in those few cases where it may be necessary in the inte rest of the public, for the protection of society, that the child be so com mitted.

Improvements will be made 'to the indoor recreation area unde r the guidance of the counsellor in order that indoor programs may be conducted for those boys and girls detained for periods longer than five or six hours during a day. During 1961 there was a total of 1,3 85 admissions to the Boys' Detention Home. As previously mention ed , the average length of stay for a boy was 4.4 1 days . In the girls home there were a total of 549 admissions and the average length of stay in that wing was 4. 75 days .

Members will appreciate, of course, that these are again gross figures and include boys and girls who are in detention for only a few hours, that is admitted at ten in the morning and released around four .o'clock in the after noon, and of course these figures include , as well, re -admissions of the same boy or girl in both institutions on one or more or several occasions . In connection with the Home, while in that gene ral geographic area,· I'm happy to report to the committee that provision is made in the present estimates for the addition to staff of a fuff-time psychologist who will work with Dr.

Little who is the full-time psychiatrist attached to the Attorney-Gen eral's Department . The staff provides service to the Juvenile Family Court and to the various correctional institUtions , and the addition of the full-time psycholo gist is again something that will, I think, be a great boon to the psychiatric work that is carried on under the guidance of Dr. Little .

I've left to the end, not out of any sense of the importance of it, but I merely left to the end the field of probation, because I think a few special words can be said about probation and a few of the statistics in connection with our experience in the probation field of the last few years would be of inte rest to members of the committee. In the adult field, the total caseload as at December 31 st,. 1961, was 535 as opposed to 383 last year • . These figures are broken down -- 419 males, 1961, and 116 females; and in 1960 there were 309 males and 74 females.

Cases completed satisfactorily, that is where the person on probation was signed out so to speak -- there were in 1961, 222 ; 1960 , 177 . Cases terminate d unsatisfac torily, 32 in 1961; 30 in 1960 . There were transf erred out of the provin ce , 32 in 1961; 33 in 1960. The success rate, so called, that is assuming those transferred out were terminated successfully since no adverse reports were received, the success rate is runn ing at around 89. 9 percent as opposed last year to the figure of 87 . 5 percent . Some financial figures that might be of inte rest to the committee .

Restitution collected by probationer officers in the adult field 196 1, $9 ,20 0.4 6; in 1960 the figure was $7, 154.8 4. Court costs collected by probationer officers in 1961, $3 ,1 80.20; 1960, $1, 062. 30. A

summary of probation services from February lst, 1957 ,-- is the adult services -- to December 31st, 1961. We are beginning to get now a longer term picture of the impact of pro bation on the whole correction theme. During that period from February lst, '57 to December 31st, 161, the total number of·persons placed on probation was 1, 188 . Altogether there were some 1, 718 pre-sentence reports prepared.

Total restitution collected over that period was $25 ,8 38 ; total amount of costs collected $15 , 171 ; and the total of unsatisfactory cases during this five year period, and this is a longer term average, is 112 or 9. 5 percent recidivists , or persons who reacted unsatisf actorily to probation. The failure rate appears to be levelling off at about 10 percent , as the five year average was 9. 5 and the '61 failure rate was 10 .1 percent.

I think that these figures, although perhaps even higher than they might be , still reflect the im portance and, may I say, the success of this program, and certainly justify the confidence that we have placed in it, and did well in the important role it plays in the over-all correctional field. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I've gone on for some time and it's not my intention to take up fur ther time of the committee at this stage • I hope that the information that I've been able to pass on to the committee at this stage has been of some general assistance to them in the consider ation of the estimates before them, and I will attempt to give the committee whatever further information they may wish to have with respect to these estimates. MR . HILLHOUSE: Mr .

Chairman, I wish to compliment the Honourable the Attorne y-Gen eral on a very consc ientious report respecting his department , and I wish to join with him too Page 1516 April 6th, 1962

(Mr . Hillhouse , cont' d.) • • • • • in extending my best wishes to the various members of his staff and to the various employees and personnel in the otheJ divisions that come under, generally classed, of the Attorney-Gener al. It would seem to me however though, Mr . Chair man, that the remarks of the Honourable the Attorney-General this evening are more conspic uous by what they have omitted to say rather than what they have said. Now he deals tonight with this Law Reform Committee which he is asking the Manitoba Law Society and the Manitoba Bar Assd ciation to set up.

It seems to me that back on July Bth, 19 59, the Attorney-General made a similar announcement. Now I wonder what happened to the committee which he in ten ded to set up in 1959 -- (Interjection) -- I beg your pardon ? MR •. LYON: We amended the Act the next year to make it possible to set it up. MR. HILLHOUSE: That was July Bth, 1959, he advised this House that he intended to set up a committee to deal with matters of law reform in Manitoba and to that end he was communi cating with the Manitoba Law Society and the Manitoba Bar Association.

Now as far as I know, nothing has happened in the interval and I can assure you, Mr . Chairman, that there is great need for such a committee in Manitoba. To cite one example alone, the Dower Act in Manitoba is badly in need of revision, and I think just recently in the Manitoba Bar Review , certain re commendations were made by a committee of lawyers as to the changes that should be effected in that act.

There are numerous other matters that have arisen during the past two years that could have studied the investigation and recommendations of such a committee, and I do hope that this committee, which he announces now will be formed and will get to work on laws of Manitoba that are badly in need of revision and reform. The Honourable the Attorney-General when he spoke to us on July Bth, 1959, he ad vised us that his colleagues looked upon his program as a real "hailsto rm". Now it seems to me, Mr .

Chairman, that the program on the basis of performance has turne d out to be a "sunshine . 11 On the question of probation alone, he spoke very highly of the benefits of probation and what could be expected from it. We agreed with him on this side of the House. We agreed that any modern system of criminal jurisprudence should have a good probation system . At that time , he promised that he would appoint six probation officers to work in rural Manitoba. Now I be lieve that he has kept that promise . At that time he also promised that these six probation officers would have a caseload of 40 each.

That promise .has not been kept. Each of these pr obation officers has a case load of at least 100 each, and I'm instructed and advised that each one of these probation officers covers a territory of 12 , OOO square miles. Now in the probation field too, I think that the Honourable the Attorney-General has not lived up to his promise s. It's my unde rstanding that the probation officers in Manitoba have never yet been classified under the Civil Service Act, and I have a feeling that if any of these present probation officers in Manitoba could find work elsewhere, they 'd leave tomorrow.

Now I know there is a fight going on in the various departments in the government, between social workers and other individuals, but, in my opinion, I think a probation officer is a man or a woman who has to have a highly-qualified and specialized type of training, and I don't think that the mere fact that you are a graduate of a school of Social Science is sufficient to qualify you alone for that type of work.

I believe that this government should institute an in-service type of training for correctional officers and I believe , too, that this government should follow the example of the British home office in setting out the qualifications and requirements for pro bation officers . I'm advised that in Great Britain the qualifications and requirements of the Br itish home office in respect of a probationer officer are as follows:

(1) Must be between 26 and 30 years of age upon application;

(2) Must be a mature person;

(3) Must have worked for a number of years in Industry or Commerce ;

(4) The candidate must have worked with juven iles in youth clubs, community clubs, scout groups, etcetera, during his leisure hours ;

(5) Ali training for probation officers in England is done through an in-service program -- this includes lectures at a university on all aspects of probation, law, social administration, econ omics, sociology, psychology, biology, etcetera; and (6) -- and this is the important one -- no university graduate may become a probation officer unless he has fulfilled all these requirements. Now I think in Manitoba that we should introduce such a training program as an in-service program, and I think too that the first thing that we must do in Manitoba, in order to retain the probation officers that we have at present, is to give them some en.couragement by April 6th, 1962 Page 1517

(Mr. Hillhouse , cont'd. ) . . . • • classifying them under The Civil Service Act. Just re cently we lost the services of Ivor Halliday. I don't know the reason why he left Manitoba, but he's gone back to England and the only thing that I can presume is that he was absolutely fed-up and disgusted. Now the At torney-General mentions the fact that we are shortly going to have a new juven ile detention home, that under the Fauteux Report , that officers from the Department of Justice have just recently visited Manitoba with a view to making a survey.

Now the Honourable the Attorney-General made a similar statement to this committee in July of 1959 . I don't know whether he referred -- he said, recently he had it from the officers of the Department of Jus tice who went over all the different institutions in Manitoba to ascertain whether or no any of them would be suitable for the new program which was being introduced in implementation of the Fauteux Report. I presumed from his remarks on that occasion that that visit had been made in 1958 . Now I may have been wrong.

Well that 's almost four years ago, and if it's go ing to take another four years for the Department of Justice at Ottawa to do anything, well it's going to be around 1966 before we even start on a program . I think in the meantime , Mr . Chairman, it's most urgent that we build a new juvenile detention home in the vicinity of Winni peg. I feel that the present place where juveniles are kept is outmoded; it's almost mediaeval; and I don't think it's humane to keep anybody in that institution.

We visited that building a few days ago and regardless of what offence an individual is charged with, while that individual is awaiting trial he must be presumed to be innocent, and I don't think that we have any right to keep any person on remand in a building as antiquated as the building in which we are keeping them today. To see these young juveniles sitting around in a room, who are not allowed any exercise at all and just sit there all day long reading comic books, is not a credit to this pro vince and it's certainly not a credit to us as legislators to allow such ·a situation to exist.

Now I don't blame the Attorney-General for that situation there. That's something which has been inherited by him, but I think it is incumbent upon us as legislators of Manitoba to see that that situation is corrected. I don't recommend a "soft policy" towards juvenile offenders.

As a matter of fact I think we're getting a little too soft towards them , but I do say this , what ever we do to try and correct them, let's be humane about it; let's give them decent quarters in which to live; let's segregate them so that the re's no pos sibility of one boy being contamin ated by somebody else who is worse than him; and let's do everything that we possibly can to correct them , rehabilitate them so that they can take their place in society as useful citizens . wµat we are doing for these juveniles today once we get them in, in my opinion is not rehabili tation, it's just custodial care and something has to be done to correct this situation.

Now as to the works camp program which has been introduced by the Attorney-General, I think that's a good program . I think it's good for these boys , rather than serving their time in Headingley Gaol to serve their time out in the fresh air, where they get used to working as a habit and where they have a chance to see things in their proper perspective . But what I would like to know from the Attorney-General is this, whether or no that pro gram has had any rehabilitating effect upon these inmates and what percentage of these boys who have spent time in these work camps have repeat ed.

We have received no information on that point at all. I would like for a moment, Mr. Chairman, to deal with the Magistra tes Courts . I don't think there is any more important court in any province or country than that of the Magistrates Court. I would say offhand that 95 percent of the people who run foul of the law get their ex perience of justice and law in a Magistrates Court, and I don't think that we could be too care ful in choosing the type of individuals whom we should make a Magistrate.

Fortunately, in Manitoba, we are blessed with magistrates of understanding, wisdom and a knowledge of law, and what is more, an appreciation of justice . But I do feel, and I have already expressed this view to this House on previous occasions, that what we should have in Winnipeg is a central court for the trial of all criminal offenders, a· court where we could have a staff -- an adequate staff of magistrates so that they wouldn't be overworked as they are today.

Any person who has ever gone down to the City of Winnipeg Police Court, which they call a Magistrates Court, and see the rate and the speed with which cases go through that court , comes away with a feel ing that they have been in the "General Motors" and they have been observing something going through the mass production,line. Now I don't think that's right; I don't think it's good for the Administration of Justice. I would like to see a court where magistrates would be able to spend Page 1518 April 6th, 1962

(Mr. Hillhouse, cont'd.) • • • • more time on each individual case. I would like to see a court where the probation officers had also their offices and where magistrates could, in all cases before sentencing anybody for any offence, no matter how bad the offence was, have a pre-sentence report on that individual; have a report from a psychiatrist, so that the Magis trate knows that before he imposes that sentence he has within his knowledge and possession all the facts and all the information which is necessary to impose a fine which will be just and equitable and which will fully meet the ends of justice.

The Honourable the Attorney-General, if he did mention the Manitoba Home for Girls, he he must have simply mentioned it on passing. I have no recollection of him having used that expressiqn or used that name.

And I would like to hear from him, how many escapes or how many persons have escaped from that Home since it was first occupied ; how many have been apprehended; whether or not there have been any riots in that Home; whether or no any of the matrons in that Home have been attacked by any of the inmates; and if his answer to these questions is in the affirmative, what happened to these inmates by way of punishment. I would also like to know how much government property has been destroyed by inmates in that Home since it was built.

I would also like to know how many members. of the RC MP have been in jured in that Home; the extent of their injuries; and the amount of damage that was done to their uniforms. I would also further like to know regarding that Home, what method of correction they use to recalcitrant inmates; whether the Super intendent of that Home has any say in what punishment will be given to an individual or whether the degree or kind of punishment is deter mined by a social worker.

I would also like to know whether or no there is any segregation in that Home ; whether or no there are any girls in trui.t Home who have been sent there from the psychopathic ward of the Winnipeg General Hospital; and how many of these girls there are. It is my understanding that as far as their sleeping quarters are concerned in that home, there is a certain degree of segregation, but in the community rooms, the dining- room and the recreation hall, they all meet there together. I would also like to know what the ages of the inmates are.

Now some time ago, I believe at a magistrates' conference in Winnipeg , it was suggested that the age of juveniles be lowered from 18 to 16. I would like to know from the Honourable the Attorney-General whether or no he has ever taken that matter under advisement and whether he intends to take any action on it.

It seems to me that, in view of the fact that we had a bill before this House tonight lowering the voting age to 18 years, that we should give serious consideration as to whether or no we should not lower the age of a juvenile from 18 to 16, because between 16 and 18, that two years makes a tremendous difference, and particul arly with a delinquent who has been engaged in crime for a period of .time.

A boy who has had two more years' experience in that field knows more about it than a boy of 16 years' of age, and I think the time has come when we must take a very close look at that and determine whether , in the interest of justice, the age should not be lowered to 16. I am glad to note that the inmates of Headingley Gaol are now being given a course in barbering, and I hope that it isn't your intention to make a real "clip-joint" out of it . There is one matter, Mr. Chairman, that I'd like to deal with before we sit down -- or there's two as a matter of fact.

I' d like to deal with the report of the Commission on Judicial Boundaries which was submitted, I think in August of 1959 , and which we received last Novem ber . Now I have read this report with a great deal of interest. MR . LYON : On a point of something -- yes, of order -- did I understand my honourable friend to say that the report was received in 1959 ? MR. lilLLHOUSE : It should be '60. MR. LYON : Is this the Judicial Boundaries Report ? MR. lilLLHOUSE: Yes -- Wait a minute I'm just looking for the date -- '61 -- August of '61. MR. LYON : Members of the House received it just after that.

MR. lilLLHOUSE: We got it in November. MR. LYON : Yes. MR. lilLLHOUSE : Now in my opinion the members of this House may not agree with all the conclusions that were reached by the members of that committee, but there is one part of the report that I would like to read and that is this -- it's on Page 1 -- "At our preliminary April 6th, 1962 Page 1519

(Mr. Hillhouse, con t'd. ) • • meeting we decided that we '\\l'.luld not approach the matters into which we were to enquire dominate d by a desire to save mon ey, but rather the motivating inte rest should be to in crease the efficiency of administration of justice without diminishing services to the people , and if by so doing savings were created, that would be an additional advantage ." Now I believe, Mr .

Chairman, that anyone who reads .this report and reads the recommenda tions , particularly respecting the county court divisions , that person must come to the conclusion that that committee actually did achieve by their recommendations , if adopted, an in creased efficiency in the administra tion of justice; and I am wondering why no action whatsoever has been taken by the government in respect of this report. It's admitted quite openly and quite freely that we have county courts in Manitoba that perhaps do not have one case a year.

Now these courts should be closed and I think there should be a greater cen tralization of county courts in Manito ba, because that is the only means by. which we are going to increase the efficiency of the administration of justice. In county courts today, the officials are fee paid and unl ess a county court has sufficient busin ess you cannot get efficient officials, and I would· strongly urge that the government act on the recommendations of this committee or advise the House on, whether or no , what parts of these recommen dations they intend to accept.

I believe that this report was submitted by the government to the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce and to the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, but I suggest that the proper place to make this submission is to this House and not to Chambers of Commerce . Mr. Chairman , there has been a matter which has given me some considerable thought for a long time . It's true that it deals largely with criminal law but it also has its application to civil law, and that is the question dealing with a rule of evidenc e, which permits a prose cutor to cross-examine an accused person on previous offences and previous convictions .

Now in Great Britain they have changed that rule and they only allow prosecutors to cross-examine on previous convictions if the accused has put his own character in evidenc e, and I submit that we should adopt a similar rule in Manitoba insofar as it refers to that branch of the law of evidence which comes within our jurisdiction. I would also suggest to the Honourable the Attor- · ney-General that representati ons be made by him to Ottawa for the purpose of seeing if that rule could not be changed under the Criminal Code of Can ada or under The Canada Evidence Act.

In the United States recently there was a committee set up by members of various bar associations there and by various professors from different law schools to study and report on whether or no the rules of evidence could not be codified, and that committee has come up · with a report which has codified the rules of evidence in the Unit ed States into a very compact form. I think that it would be advisable for the Attorney-G eneral , when his Law Reform Com mittee is set up, to ask that committee to take a lo.ok at the codified rules of evidence that have been prepared by that American Committee .

At the present moment , our rules of evidence are largely to be found in the writings of text-book writers who .are experts in the field of evi dence , and one writer in particular, his book comprises about 700 pages with about 9, OOO pre ceden ts. I believe that this committee in the Unite d States has reduced the rules of evidence down to a very small minimum and I.think it would be worthwhile for us to study it. MR. ORLIKOW : Mr.

Chairman , I join with the Honourable Member for Selkirk in com menting on the lack of enth usiasm and the lack of zeal which is demonstrated this year, al though this year we have some specific proposals for improvements , but the tremendous dif ference between this years' specific program and that wonderful program that we were going to see in the field of justice·, in the field of correction, which the Minister enunciated in 1959 as part of that great forward movement of this government.

We've come almost four years and we 're way behind where we were in 1959 --(Interjection) -- You're promising less today than you promised in 1959. Mr. Chairman , the purpose of any good correctional program should be to help reform and rehabilitate offend ers . After being released from one of our insti tution s, if a person can not or will not live within the law, then he is no better than he was when he was committed nor is society protected any more than it was when he was first senten ced.

Surely after the convicti on, whether the decisions of the courts in co-operation with the probation officers , the psychiatrists and other specialists, whether there should be a program of treatment de signed to help the offender develop so that he will be able to live effectively within the law in the community; and this is true, Mr. Chairman, surely whether the sentence is to a term ··· Page 1520 April 6th, 1962

(Mr . Orlikow, cont'd) •••••• in an institution or a form of probation, and yet we find in Canada that this is not happening. We find in Canada that we still have one of the highest rates of re cidivism which is to be found in the world. The Attorney-General promi,sed many things in the past , but, Mr. Chairman , until today we have seen very little action . Today's program is just a trickle of what is required and it can be characterized only as too little and too late.

This government can find money for education, for physical rehabilitation, for welfare, for roads , for hydro, and all these things are needed, but little if any money for rehabilitation of people who are unfortunate enough to break the law. Canada is near the bottom of the list of countries in expenditures to meet this problem and Manitoba .is probably at the bottom of any list which could be compiled by any independent team of experts if they rated the provinces of Canada -- in Canada. We have little , if any, trained staff, and the results are what we can expect.

In Canada we have a third of the population of Great Britain and we have more than twice as many people in institutions . -- (interjection) - Where am I getting my figures? My figures can be substantiated in any book which has been written on correctional programs comparing Canada with other countries. If the honourable member wants to come to the library I'll show them to him, although I wonder if he ever reads . Now, Mr.

Chairman, I want tonight to deal in some detail with the institutions which we have in this province and with the programs in the fields of probation which we are running, and to deal with them, not on the basis of what I think, but to deal with them on the basis of principles which have been enunciated by expert teams like the Fauteux Report; by local teams of people who are interested, such as the Committee on Corrections appointed by Welfare Coun cil in 1955; by newspaper men who are competent and whose reports !h ave checked for accur acy with people who work in the field and who attested to their accuracy .

Now the Minister announces tonight that lo and behold in 1962 , for the first time , we are to have a classification officer in the Province of Manitoba at Headingley. Now I wonder if the Minister thinks that this will meet the bill , this will meet what is required. On other occa sions the Minister has lauded and quoted approvingly from the Fauteux Report, so I want to read to this committee just a couple of paragraphs of what the Fauteux Report had to say about classi fication, and I quote: "Classi fication and segregation form the fundamental basis of all reform and active treatment .

A sound and wide system of classification makes it easier to deal with individual problems of prisoners . The work of classification is a highly skilled task which re quires the service of competent personnel." Not one , Mr. Chairman, I want to bring that to the attention of the Minister -- not one, but a team personnel. "Classification includes a complete examination of all prisoners" -- not just at Headingley -- of all prisoners . It recommends fur ther: "that in every prison there should be one senior classification officer with one assistant for every 50 inmates" --(interjection) -- 150 ?

Well I may have copied this wrong, 'but if I did, I accept your figures -- you still are not coming anywhere near that figure -- "The chief classi fication officer should be a person with thorough professional qualifications , including a knowl edge of psychology and social work. Assistants , who may be described as counsellors , should be persons with psychological, psychiatric or social work training and experience." Well, Mr. Chairman, that's what the Fauteux report said and I leave it to the members to assess how far we are from that objective . Manitoba institutions have had no such personnel.

We have had no classification board which would include a chaplain, a school teacher, a chief industrial officer, a psychiatrist, a social worker, and a psychologist . That 's what a modern classification team is, not one classification officer. Mr. Chairman, if you look at the whole program you can come to no other conclusion but that we have no real correction policy. If you examine the institutions individually, you see that each one has a separate and distinct program .

One is strict , the other is stricter; but if the Director of Corrections really sets over-all policy and co-ordinates the program , such a policy isn't from the staff, from the workers of ag encies who work with correctional programs , and from the volunteer agencies and from the public. Now, Mr . Chairman, I want to deal with one matter which I think the Honourable Member for Selkirk dealt with and which I think is a complete negation of the British tradition that a person must be presumed to be innocent until he is proven guilty. I refer to the separation of the untried from the convicted.

A person charged with an offence but not convicted should not be held with those who have been convicted and are serving sentence, and I think this is April 6th, 1962 Page 1521

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd) ••••• ••• obvious . In Manitoba this fundamental principle is disregarded because of lack of physical facilities. I don't blame the staff at Headingley; I don't blame the staff at the Vaughan Street Detention facility;J blame the Attorney-General. He's the one who sets the policy. -- (Interjection) -- Well we agree on one thing, it's nice to know that we agree on somethi ng. Accused persons are held with convicted persons . At Rupert Avenue Gaol, at Vaughan Street and at Headingley, untried persons are held with convicted.

At Headingley Gaol because of lack of space, as many as 60 persons are held together in 40 cells -- those awaiting trial and so not yet guilty, and those awaiting transfer to penitentiary. In other words , those sentenced to more than two years, and those awaiting appeals. The Ame rican Correctional Associ ation adopted as a principle in 1960 that this is completely imprope r, and we ought to follow a similar policy. Now I want, Mr. Chairman, to deal with the institutions which we have.

I'm glad to hear the Minister announce that at some time in the future -- but I'm like the Honourable Member from Selkirk -- the promises of the Attorney-General in the past have led us to realize from experience that the future may not be tomorrow ; may not be next month; may not even be next year; but may be some time when the present Attorney-General will no longer hold that office - but even when that institution is built, Mt. Chairman, Headingley will still exist.

Headingley is a place of custody for juveniles, for. repeaters , for vagrants, for alcoholics , for homo sex - uals , as well as for first offenders , for untried, and for those sentenced and on their way to the penitentiary. It has to combine features of maximum and minimum and medium security _ facilities. How can we expect it to do an adequate job for all these diverse elements ? We are asking the impossible and the impossible is not being done in Manitoba in 1962 . The pro gram at Headingley is neither treatment or rehabilitation. Lack of space prohibits segre gation.

The Fauteux Report recommended that alcoholics, drug addicts, sex offenders and psychotocs should be held in separate prison medical centres . Not a word from the Minis ter that this is being contemplated, not even a suggestion that it is being discussed with the federal government . , Now, Mr. Chairman , it is possible to have a good physical facility and not to have a good prdgram , but it is im possible to have a real pr.ogram of rehabilitation without a competent and well-trained staff. Our record in providing or training such staff is tragic if it's not criminal .

We have provided bursaries for people in .mental health or public welfare but no such grants have yet been provided for people in the correctional field or probation services , although the Minister promised that -- (Interjection) -- I'm wrong? Well, Mr .

Chairman, if it's been done it's been done within the last year, because in a reply to a question which we asked last year, the Minister replied that there were no people on bursaries taking social work -- and if I'm wrong, the Minister says I'm wrong, I will bring last year.'s journal in and read his reply into the record - although the Minister promised that in 1959 that this would be done. In-service training for correctional staff is largely undeveloped. In other provinces -- j Ontario, Saskatchewan and BC , such on-the-job training is mandatory for continuing employ- ment and promoti on.

I read into the record last year what the program in Saskatchewan, On- tario and British Columbia was. We have no such program . The Minister can tell us that some of the people took a coiirse one night a week for 12 weeks, but that is not a training pro- gram . It's better than nothing, but that is not a training program .

It was done on their own time and at their own expense I presume , and compared to the Province of Ontario where every single person who works in a correctional institution gets a six weeks' training course beginning the day he is hired and has to pass an exam before he can work in an institution, ours doesn't even deserve to be called a program . · Well, let's look at the gaol for women at Portage . Now we will have to keep in mind , of course, that the Minister has finally announced that we will have an institution in the north - at The Pas.

I think we could have paid for that institution if we had stopped sending people by plane from northern Manitoba who were sentenced to one week in gaol and who had to be flown in to Portage. I'm told that this has happened not once but many time s, and that the cost is in the neighbourhood of $350 per trip . MR . PETERS: One way? MR. ORLIKOW : Well, the Minister can tell us that. And you not only have to send the per son but you have to send an escort. But let's look at the gaol. Let's look at what we have. I Page 1522 April 6th, 1962

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd) ••.•••••. want to join with the Minister in saying that we have had ter - rific service from the superintendent. How she did it I don •t know, because she is the only trained person in that institution. Pardon me --I think in the questions we asked last year the Minister said that three other people out of the staff of seventeen had taken that evening course , but she is the only person who is really qualified to work in such an institution .

There has been no staff person responsible for counselling or training, and little if anything done to help edu cate the inmates, although the report of the superintendent shows how much this is needed. True that there are problems; true that many of the inmates are there for a short time ; but in view of the fact that many of them are there more than once , a good deal more could have been done than has qeen done. One can really ask what purpose the institution serves at al l. Women are admitted th ere time after time -- I am told that one woman has been there 90 separate times since 1939 --

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-5-56
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 5th hansardpdf 56.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	db9e0b487ed3ae08d6a5568d78a6b8e0914be12a

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