,, Volume 1 ' PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st Session VERBATIM REPORT Tuesday, July 4, 1972 SPEAKER, THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 44

July 4, 1972 The House met at 3:00 P.M:. Hr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order; PETITIONS Tape no. 1219 Pagel - HRW HR. F. B. ROWE: Hr~ Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of almost thirtv-four hundred citizens. The prayer of the petition, Sir, is that we support Judy Norman and any other persons seeking a teacher's certificate on the grounds that academic or professional qualifications be the basis for recor.-~endation for a teacher's certificate rather than a religious affiliation.

Sir, I would like to point out that more concerned citizens are signing in support of the petition from Grand Falls, Harbour Grace, Grand Bank, Gander and more in St. John's but these have not yet been received. Sir, it is with a great deal of concern and sincerity that I support the principle embodied in the prayer of this petition. It is my firm belief that no academically nor professionally nor morally qualified individual should be denied certification into the teaching profession on the grounds that he or she refuses to reveal his or her religious affiliation.

An individual 1 s religious belief is his own private and personal affair, As far as it affects certification into a profession. To deny certification, based on refusal to state one 1 s religious belief, amounts to discrimination and a violation of one's religious freedom and indeed may even be a violation of the Canadian Bill of Rights. Sir, it should be pointed out that this issue has nothing whatsoever to do with the whole complex question of the desirability nor status of our denominational system of education as it now exists. That, of course, is another issue entirely.

Neither does this issue have anything to do with whether or not a school board decides to employ a particular teacher. This concerns only the certification of a teacher into the profession of teaching in the same way as you would have the admission of a lawyer into the legal profession or a doctor into the medical profession. 4126

July 4, 1972 Hr. Rowe(F.B.) Tape no. 1219 Page 2 Sir, it is my understanding that no other province has a similar requirement in order for a teacher to be certified. Generally teachers' certification is based on academic qualifications as shown through university transcripts. I am appealing to the present administration to sit down With the Denominational Educational Connnittees and seek to work out an agreement in order to make changes in the relevant clauses in the Education Act in order that one's religious affiliations would not be one of the factors considered for a teacher 1 s certification.

Sir, this is a very serious consideration~ I, myself, am not sure whether the certification of a teacher should be a function of government or a function of a professional such as the Newfoundland Teachers' Association. This matter has to be given extremely serious consideration. However,! do plead with the government to sit down with the authorities concerned,immediately,in order to seek the solution.

Sir, until such time as an agreement is reached between the authorities and this administration, I would ask the government to set up an appeals board 1 immediately,in order to hear cases such as the one exemplified by Miss Norman's case. I sincerely hope, Sir, that the administration's answer will not be that the law is the law and it was brought in by the former administration. Times are changing and new situations arise. I have no hesitation nor embarrassment in suggesting modification or change to a very small

section of

an act brought in by the previous administration. If laws were not to be changed nor new ones introduced~there would be no need for this honourable House of Assembly. So, Sir, I ask that this petition be referred to the department to which it relates. HON. J. A. CARTER {Minister of Education and Youth): Let me begin~ Mr, Speaker, by saying that I support that petition. I support it unequivocally. I always have and I always would have and I can find no 4127

July 4, 1972 l1r. Carter Tape no. 1219 Page 3 legislative bar whatsoever to a teacher being certified,on religious grounds. I do not think this is or was the point of the recent cont rovers:;·, Of course, the controversy that has arisen in the last couple of weeks or this present issue that this petition deals with is much larger than any individual controversy could be. The reason that a teacher needs to be certified by one of the denominational educational committees is because Newfoundland education or education in NeWfoundland is governed by a denominational system.

All schools fall either under the Roman Catholic Board or the Roman Catholic Denominational Educational Committee, the Integrated or the Pentecostal. In fact with the exception of perhaps the post-secondary institutions none of the places of learning in Newfoundland? that is below Grade XI, Grade XI and below, fall outside of the denominational educational system. Therefore, the teacher has to elect to teach with one or more of those particular boards. There is no way of teaching in primary, elementary or secondary schools except under one of these boards.

If any uncertainty should arise as to which particular board one wishes to teach with or is entitled to teach with, then naturally this particular person would be sent to another board~ I can state that in the case of Miss Norman she has again applied and I feel sure that once she indicates which board she wishes to teach with that she should have no difficulty in getting certified. Let me conclude by saying that I support the petition. I welcome the concern which obviously such a large petition expresses.

I wish to assure this House and this province that a person I s religious affiliation is not, was not and shall not be a bar to their certification, MR.R. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a couple of points in connection with this petition which I think ought to be made. As I understand it this young lady has applied to the Board of Examiners for a certificate and the Board of Examiners, under the Education Teacher Training Act,which is the Act No. 94 of 1968~ if they are satisfied or if she fulfills their 4128

July 4, 1972 Mr. Wells Tape no. 1219 Page 4 terms and conditions that they direct the registrar to certify her as a teacher. But the thing that has bothered me all along with this particular matter, Mr. Speaker, is that I believe that the young lady has not exercised all the provisions which are available to her in the act. Now on a factual point perhaps the honoutable member may know and correct me if I am wrong but in the Education Teacher Training Act there is a section,numbered

Section 8,which sets up a teacher certification committee, the membership of which shall consist of a registrar, subject to Subsection 2, "the executive secretaries of all the denominational educational committees, of which there are three - MR. ROWE (F.B.): (Inaudible). MR. WELLS: There is an appeal from any decision of the Board of Examiners. l will have another look at it but it does not appear to be the way it reads. J!R. ROWE (F.B.): (Inaudible) HR.

WELLS: Well let us have a look then. 11 Any teacher or board which feels aggrieved by any issuance of or refusal to issue a teaching certificate or licence made by the registrar upon examination," etc., r•may appeal to this committee. n HR. ROWE (F.B.): (Inaudible)- change of certification from one grade level to another. HR. WELLS: But had the young lady appealed to this Teacher Certification Committee on the basis of the wording as here? MR.

ROWE (F.B.): This question was asked of the minister in the House sometime back, The minister replied that there was no appeal committee 1 board nor branch that she could in fact appeal to. HR. WELLS: But the Teacher Certification Committee is set out in the act and it would seem to me from my reading of it that she would have a right to appeal 4129

July 4, Mr. Wells. to it .. 1972 I wonder if she has? Tape no. 1219 Page 5 MR. ROWE (F.B.): Well this is what it seemed to me when I looked at the act but,having asked the question,it appears that this is not the way in fact it functions. MR. CARTER: This is as the hon. member for Labrador West stated, this is a provision and an appeal board designed more to straighten out their grade level and any other matters of conflict that may arise, natural mechanical areas of conflict that may arise between a teacher and a particular board. With minor changes, of course, it could be made into a much broader appeal board.

That may be an idea. It seems to me that the machinery is already there and it is possibly worth considering. The point that I have tried to make all through this case is that there is no need for an appeal where there is no refusal. It was the young ladies misunderstanding of the way the system worked. I felt that she did not give the system a proper chance. To my way of thinking, there has not been any need for an appeal yet demonstrated, Should such a need be demonstrated,then this might be one method of handling such an appeal. It is certainly something we could look into. _MR.

WELLS: Well to continue then,certainly no honourable member of this House would want ,to see anybody denied the right to a teaching certificate by reason of some denominational matter. It is a question of legal

interpretation. I still feel myself that this act would allow her to appeal to this Teacher Certification Committee and I feel that whatever is done by way of what this House may do or the department may do to facilitate these matters, I still feel that somebody who is in communication with this lady should tell her or advise her to make such an appeal to the Teacher Certification Committee to see what happens. It may be that I am wrong. It may be that they would say; 1 ~e have no jurisdiction to hear the 4130

July 4, 1972 Hr. Wells appeal.n Tape no. 1219 Page 6 ! feel that right away she ought to try that procedure. It will then be a mtter of

interpretation whether the wording of the act covers it. I. myself, feel it does. MR. ROWE (W.N.): Mr~ Speaker, I would also like to speak a few words in support of the principle _of the petition tabled in the House by the hon. member for St~ Barbe North. I must say in beginning my few remarks 1 Sir, that just upon the first reading of that

section by the hon~ member for St. John's South, it seemed to me, without studying the

section in that act, that it might be broad enough to cover the particular case in question. It does talk about the certification of teachers. It does not necessarily talk about a teacher already being certified and then looking for a greater rank or anything like that. MR. WELLS: What is so significant here is: The registrar is essentially only a functionary. The Board of Examiners decide on the fitness or otherwise and recommend to the registrar. In this case, they did not recommend to the registrar so he could not then issue the certificate. I think the

section is right on point, The registrar is a member of this committee on which, of course, I think there would be a nominee from the, De·partment of Education, two people from the university, two people from the Newfoundland Teachers I Association and the three denominational educational representatives. I think it is wide enough. HR. ROWE (W.N.): Well agreeing with the honourable member, I think the

section that he has read seems to be on point. I think it is perhaps somewhat irrelevant in this particular case because there are one of two possibilities, either the board mentioned in the particular

section has not seen fit to arrogate unto itself the jurisdiction which they may already have or (2) and worst again 1 if the body referred to in that

section does have such jurisdiction nobody, including officials of the Department of Education, the D,E.C. 's, apparently saw fit to mention it to the young lady in question. Here we have a fortuitous mentioning of the situation by a member of this House who happens to have the ind us try 4131

July '-I, 1 on, to look W'l the ;i.ct rm his m-.'r uhit'h stri!~es Pe ns heinr a little bit 0n the hnnhaznn1 side vhcn we nre corrinv to this tvne of nrocel!ure. HON. E.M. ROBERTS (Leader of the Opposition): Why do not two DEC's r.o to the Integrated and Roman Catholic and have a look at the application? Yps thnt is r'lP½t. two TJEC's h:wr n 1ooV at tht> ;1rrlicntinn ant: I hn.ve talt·cr1 to the votmti: 1nrlv hrieflv. Albeit T do n0t thinl 7 this no int has ev0r rore 11p. "'hf:' possihi1:i.tv h:Js never t:fl;"'!_8 un ever ,,hJch n:cnns t1Pt cv0n i' tlw

section of :tct is cin pi:dnt. '1r. ~nenh~r. no'hody b,s seen fH tn r"t>ntion lt to her. Surely, as my honourable and learned frJ.enr'. '.:novs anil as T 1·no,,•., iwvinr- been n oractisin~ 1 m-;ver nt 0nc r,nint, ncGn1e rln nnt knov t'1c lm.'. Tltis :i.s why thev hn.vc hirh n;>i.rl l:iHvers to tc]l t 11e,~ the 1;1u: on'innrv l2yn-cn <10 not l·noF t'le 1aw. T:1 ;1;1v cvenL ~ir. thrtt is hv the w,1v.

Hh;lt T v011l<l like to ,:;;,v in sunnort of thP nrinci.ple nf this nctition is that I he.Jievc t 11nt t!w w~nlc 111csti0n cJ '0rofessionn1 ou.:ilific~tinns f;i_Jln outr.i<lt> pf the Jnr,:,er issue ti1nt nf denominational erlucntior. in the nrovincf'. 11h;,t this neti.tinn h;is to ;lo with is rri0 Cf'rtifvinz of teachers as being nrofossion:.]lv fJtrn1ifir,:::l to te;ich schnol-.. Whether it be here in ·:ei,1fo11rull;1nr1 or wfwther it he in Ti.v:}mk tu or Toronto or Instnnhn]. it r!c1\.'.p;:; no tlifference! nrofessionn1 ou.;1Jific,1ticins.

Hr. ~nenLc.r. ! •,m11l<l f11rt 110r suhnit t½;"<t in no otl1er nrofcssion Cove see the snf'ctnde where ,:,ither neonle h;we tn rdve thr.ir relirdo11s rlenomination nr lvwe to state that thcv v:mt tci tench within n. certa1n rrli<dous borlv or thnt tlte:i.r nctions rr•av be con£;tru0t 1 :1s 1-e.inr: hostile to rcU.rion or relir:ion as t;rnp:ht in sChools.

The point T nn tryinr to nnl:e Si.r. :lr­ thnt j f vou nre :;pplvir:f to hec.otr.P n nl lmher or n. c1octor or a r.ill­ Prinht or n 1.avyer or a ~1r>nher of this honoorahle Honse of /\.ssewi,ly, nohody 011estions, nobody ,mu1d he :riresurn1_1tuous ennurh to st;i.te uhc.the.r rinyone hPre is hnRtilc tn relirdon or is nroperlv n11nlified in n rel ir:ion!'l senst: or whethr:r the person is ~ D0ist or :m Atheist or nn 4132

Tape 122D i1snnstic. or n full flerlp:e<l nius Christian or :rinr!u or uhat not. The whole iden of nh:ing reliiion into profcssion::ll Qun.J if:i.crttions is and if not is should be nn,1.thenn to t!1ir:; honou:r0ble !loune of Asscr:hly and the r-overnment and the system of education wh;tC:h we :~o :row when it coMes to hiring te:nchers. Hr. Spenker, I wou]rl subnit t1ifferent considerations nrise.

He C:o have a denar:iin2.tionnl svstem of education in this province where b,oards of e'3ucation nre directlv rPsnonsihle not to the neap.le. not to the rovernnent, not to the !"lottsf' of ,\ssern'Glv hut to their resncctive denorrinations.

Hhen it r:nr:ies to hirinr ,e, ter1chcr, if certPin restrictions on the hirinr: of tcncliers t1o nf"lt foH within rirohi'Fitfons under v0.ri0us bills of rivhts nm1 1-1'."1nt not, then T Pnttld suh'7it that bonrds of erlncation fv1vc the ri~ 1)t to 1drc or not hire .,i.oevcr they see fit-,even on t:lf' see "'it, T surpose. to er,nloy or not et1nlov n teacher or nnyhoflv else for t 11;it r.atter on :.my grounds whrt'>oever as lonr. as it is not The no int, Sj r. th.:,.t T wns trv:i.nr to nnkc~ that the profcssionrrl nun1::!.fications nre one Fntter ;mC tlwt is th0 point nnd issue under this netit:ion. thP hirinr-. of tenchcrs is another rinttcr.

As L1r a.s the hirinr- of teacher,::; iA cor:cerned~this younP 1n.17v who is only an cxamp] e of the hroadcr nrincinle and I have no axe to r.rind for this ymm~ ladv hut t rlo hnve an axe to 12rtm! for the nrincinle involver 1 , she or G-nyhodv clrw can get professionally oualtf:!.e,;'! he>rc and teach nnyr,,herc else in this country o-f r,mn<ln or anywhere in the lmrJd for thnt matter. t;ow if she is not nurrlified or given the qunlifications to tench here ,hou is she ever poinJ? to teach in a plnce like Ontario \ or .Alberta or nny,,;here else in tht: Country of r:anada?

Eav is she ever goinr to ?et professional certification today? Now thnt is thP basic, 4133

July Li, 1972 Tnpe 1?:20 t think. d:i.stinction that should he :rnde 9 that this discrimination should not be rw.cle in resnect of people who nrc anplyinr, to have their professional ritmlificntions certified. ~1rrw I woulrl submit.

Sir, by goinr n little further. that 1,erhaps whnt shnulrl be set up with respect to professional ouali ficntions is ;:1 honrcl not unlike hoards which we had in respect of doctors, : 1 r.rl lawyers and oth!'!r professional pcnnle nnrl other trades people for th;it rontter nnr'. that there he n rirht of n1_1neal frori the decisions laid down by thnt J,onrrl so thnt the real reosons whv a nerson is qualified or discpiaHf:ted cnn rorr:e to the Hrht of day and reasonnhle rien cnn 11nve ,'1 pnhlic opnnrt1mity to see whether the reas(ms for <lisquali fvin? are in fnct vn1i.ri reasons nr not.

Si. r. ?. l thonph the. hnnnural: J e ninister h:;s s t:1 ted th;-it the. re would a11ne;1r to he no need for nn apncnl in this riarticular case.

T uonl ii sul:r:rd t 1 Sir, that on the hnsis of his own reF!nrks aml the ren:nrVs nf the DE.C's~:tn n fu1l nape or nenr1y full nc1vC'rtise1"'lent sof'le time nro,wlth rep-ttrd to certnin hnstHitv shown bv the vounr: .larly in nucstion, that this is n Ccl!'H~ uhere an nppcnJ bo.1.rd is needed par excellence ½ecnuse here WC' hnvc had heresny evidence nre.sented for nuhlic c0nsl1mrition ahout cert<'lin nctivities of a nerson thnt lw.ppens to be this r,articulnr girl in this particular instance. 'llut surelv in thifl- kin,--1 of a case nn ;mrienl honrd is necessary tn see whether th~re .. w:ere snne problel"t which dnes in n nrofessionn.1 way dlsnualifv this vounp: ladv or soneOO(! in her pnrticul nr case from te<1chinr in ,schools.

It nay not be a oucstion of rc.liPion whatsoever, lt rnv r>c a ouestion of attitudes which r,rofossional people may consii!er to he nnt the type of attiturlc which should be in.? classroon with yo11ng children. ~lnyhe- that is the - T nn not sayi.np: that is the c;i_se in rcsrect of thi.s youn?. lndy hut 1 can see cnses like that. But nnhody i.n thi.H nrovince :md no minister in the province should he 4134 3

Tr,me 1220 a'.,le to cocc out 2nd say that hostility ~ms .<1hown wJthout those stntcrx:nts hcinr su'ricc:terl to fnrther scrutiny by tl1e peers Rt lcnst 0f the person ,-,hose ::ictions or conri.m".t hns hcen inpugned. This is the whole idea of cm nrmea1 hnar<l Sl!rely, ?-lr. Sncnker. 1 have the 7.rentcst plc.Rsurc. Sir, ~avinr rr.ade those few disiointcd anrl incoherent renc1rks, I hnve the r,reatest pleasure iri s,inr,ortinr thf' rr5_ricinle of the netition tobled in the !louse hy Jf~ - 4 HON. T.A. HICKMAN (Minister of Justice):Mr~ Speaker, may I rise in support of this petition.

I realize that the government's position has been put by the honourable the Finister of F:d1ication in su,iportinr_ the ryetition. T believe this '.'ctitinn goes a lot deeper than Simply the ri1;ht of cc.rtific:atlc:in of tcnchers.

T '!"PC,111 verv well when fl,e c1cts when throurh here. t'.1c i:;choo.ls net. ttie p;1rtic111 nr 2ct -in nucstion :md the other c:orrili~cntnry nets 0n, 1 t0 !"."f' anrl r was pnrt of the rnJninfotr:ttion,hct I 1fr; not fault the rtflrtinifltrntion or this :it Pll ro:,;,_:ittec on this,there were 8.men,'.r.crts surrested antl I, this t•wulcl h, snhicct to 11;,.nsord, hnt T ·vould he willinr to bet tl1nt thPre wns '-1r, '-'cl ls. or t':1c honourable the ' 1inister of Fin0nce ,Hho at tlrnt tlr;c- wns sittinr ar: a hncM,encher nn this side of tho '!'nuse;th;:it t"!wrc should be n fnr.(;m:1entn1 ri)!ht of armea] 1 ns hns l,ec>n so often 1:'t'r..tioncd hen,, frorn n decfrd0n of the 1icensinr bmlv, to the <:nnrcmc Court. 1/hen T snv si c'kenin0. tir,e ond ti.rr:e ar:ain as 2-ncndnents were there were n Jot s1:r7f'sted on the then eovernnf'nt si.rle 0f the House ;i.nd on the opposition nnd the renly alPnys wns that wr h:1•1e to consult with the churches, nncl there would he a consn] tntion a:trl then the co~itte.e would he ;,.dvised that this nr.tendr:ient conld 4135

Jnlv 4. 1972 Tane 122fl JF - 5 not ;:o tlircur-h. l\Jow this 0ocs nnt go to the ryuf'stion of denor;inntionnl e,1ncation 2.t nll.

TfJrn.t it ~loes do ! s11?r,cs t is th:i s, tt r,;,y he in our arxietv to.,_ nnd this rcrtninJy tr?.nscPnds hoth no] it:1c-n1 nnrties in tlli.s Hon.sc- thnt maybe in our anx:i.£>.ty to protect the cons ti tntionnl rir 1,ts n'" relipious r'cnoninntions ns thev apr,lv to education thnt we hcve rone a e>ter further m-ir'. hy irr:'111cation or bv tolf'rnnce rrnntcd ri~hts that vre not there .;n~ hnve nothinp uhntsoever to do with the nritish iiorth i\r;.:ricn Act nr ,mv nnendncnts inclm 1ed tl,erein t,ri.th respect to cd11cntion in this province.

T. believe, T HTT'ly he.Ji.eve thnt in the fin:11 ,1.nalvsi.s the reguiations rovc.rninr the q11n1itv of cduc:ition in thi.s ,rovince an,< the <;ualitv of those who tcacl1 in this prnvine:e nnd t11cdr nun.1 i "'icntions vests here with the !TouSf': 6f \ssemhly.

T :ir heP-inninrr to r,et sonewh:it concc>rnccl thnt in the intcrnretPtirm nf the lcrislation thnt wnB nnssed nhont three years ::irn,vhich ":ns rlesirncd to ir:orlcrent thf' rcnort of the v~rrcn r:onmiRsion,thnt in the :innler:ient~tion of that ler,is:i2t:ion or in tht? intC'rnretation of j t th:;t the nets nrc not hein" followr<l the wav thC'.y shnulf'l,nnci it i.s pri-rnnrilv n m;ittcr of inte:rrir~tE1tion.

Hy 11nderst;mclinr is tlu1t thr> Dcnnrr>inntiona.l Er111cntion Council nre there to protect the rivhts of their variorn, relirious hodies, under the riwenclments to the British 'forth A,-neric:m Act.rm(l a1so tr advise on r.:itters religions. nntters involvin!'! religion. the tnachinf of relir;ion within the schools. I supr-est tlrnt it doPs not rive the D;-"C the rirrht to <lecide on the type of school hdldinps ;md Sf'hoo1 stn;ctnres ;,ml location of schoolB ;md the nr0rrnnme for general education :md fP-neral instruction in this province.

It cPrtainly rloes not rive them the riri:ht of veto thnt t!1e old council nf ed11cnt:i.on,which was comprised of the superintendents, had. This was thr very thinp that this ler::isl::iture unanit'1ously hurieC or thou;,ht T<Te buried thref: years n~o. I mn scn,:eiJhn.t concerncrL 4136

,foly 4. lG72 Tape 1221) '-1r, SnP,'1kr,r 1 that there r-nv he :m -1tte:rrmt to resurrect some of these ;iouers tl:rnt were not there and tl:rn.t should not he there. T an snre t'."lnt All mcnbcrs of this FousP. nre very encouraged 1vith the reaction, the puhlic reactinn that cnn;e frorr the stnterncnt rnarlc- in this House n few ( 1 ays ar,o by the honourable Prer:iier, t½'lt there is ioinp to ½e 0 fairly senrcldnv enquiry and reuppraisnl of the relationship of the stnte versus the churches in the field of education. Tn the Last analysis. :Mr.

Spen!:er, r1ny T repent. the responsibili. tv rests Ln this Eouse nnd with no one else and this is not in any violation of constitutional rights at all.

The otr>cr orincinle in tt1nt netition,as I mentioner\ enrlier,is th~t trhen lice.nsinl:'. ho,.1ies or ,1.ny .r:roups Jwve ,mthority in m,:,ttcrs such ns t,is,in r:y opinion t 1 wre shoulrl ½c n funrla:r.ent,"11 rir:-tt of npr,eaJ to the '>uprerc Conrt o"' '1 ewFoundJ.J.mL '!rn1 this r>ny not 1-,e ;:ro.cticaJ in tl1e. first instrmcc becnuse a rerson i.n the nos'ltion of viss ::or.can !':ny not he nl--<!.P to mrnit ti·ie tortuous !)roce0ures of the lm, in order to ro to the Su-rrc.nc Co11rt-,hut it is a i:reat weGpnn to holil over arlrdnistrnt:ive ;-',oari!s. It net:; Jike n riolicennn. That is ri?l-1t.

It nets like ,1 po) iceman, '-Ir. Snenker. \1so,evcn if there: i.s an apncal to :mother administrntive ho,1rr!, there shoulrl also, in nv opinion, he a ri;:ht of nppeal to the Supre1"le Court of ~lcvfoundland. One of the best exnm:nles, nnd I snv this in clnsinp., >1 as nn AP'endDent that went throup:h this !louse in 1906 or 19f'...7 which Prnnted the r.1.rht.in r:::ntters of lnn and nixecl fact in law,of anpeal to the Sur,rene Court of f!ewfoundland frnM a decision of the Tfork!":rm 's Cornensntion :Jenrrl.

This vas supposed to be n very revoluti.onary sten ;1ncl then,. was some head-r:hn1°inv, over it bec.a1Jse it went ai:,ninst one nf the fundnnentnJ rules that brouvht nhout the establish1nent of the '-!orl~,nan s Cnrinenrrntion Boarr!s ~eneri'.llly in the Commonweal th. 4137

Ju1y !;, 1072 Tnne 122n i-:el1, Hr. Srwah"r, T think it :is sip:ni~ic:nnt that there hns only r'ccn nne nnpeal fron th11t ho,1rd in the 1ast four ve;:;rs rtnil to ne it has harl ,q salutary effect on mnkinr bonn!s verv c.nnsdoui:; of their ohlif'Jlt:ions ;:in(l verv c.rn:cful in t1ic internrPtntion nf the lcrislation unc1cr t.~htch tl1ey operate. ;\s I sav, I -?m very rilc:tse<l thnt the ,r,nvernncnt"s position h;is been !)lit so clenrly by the honourable the !-!inistcr of Educntion in sunporting this petition. "!R. "ifARY • ~Ir. Snf';,,ter, T wonld like to strnpc,rt tlic petition ;ind in ' --· , . " - so doinr.

Sir, T !<!0Ull'. l il:c tn say that I nn srMewhat amu;;ed nt the snnport t;1,1t is c.ominr frm" the r:overnment benches for thts netition. I thinlr r:emhers :i.rc hc.inp a little hit hyrioc:ritical. Sir. They nre either for or at::Ainst ;m amem1ment to the .1crislation to nroviile If t11e ~rinister of Justice. "iir. means what he i:>c.1,·;, 1 then whv not r:o dmm to tl10 lep:-'11 drnftst:mn. lnve the nro,er ,1.nenrlnr>nt drnfte<l nm1 hrour,ht into the Fonse hefore we close,the enr1 of this w0e} or the c-:id of this wonth. whenever we close,;ind 1et us ;,ncml the lerislation.

The liononrnb1e thP rinistC>.r h2s it rir:ht in his nv-n hands. The honourn 1J1c minister ts sittin~ rif'ht ac.ross. T cnn sec hir:-. t¾cre m:n,1. ?TT?. Nr.ARY: ~ , " -- - 1'he lcpa1 draftsl1'1m. :-Je11 we hn.ve ahout five lrn,•y£>rs here i.n t'.1e IJousc, Sir. whn cnn dro. ft ler;isla ti.on. As a natter n f fact. <:; ir. j f the 1 ffh';/Crs cannot {'.o j t, I wil] rlo it for then if they want me to. ldnr it in tnr.orrow. Bri.nr in the nr::endrn.ent into tlie Eouse tor:iorrow. Let tts ;171en<l the le1islation and nrovide Piss "1om,m with the ri;'ht to aorienl. Phy nnt do it?

Why get un and tn1t· nhout it? '·:'iw be hvpocriticnl n1:iout it? }Ar. Snenker, I wns n little bit dirmnvefl nt what the !-!in:ister nf r:c1ucation hnil to snv. P.e soid '-'iss "iornan r.:ould h,1ve to indi.f';ite whA.rc she is roinp to Pe employed. -Phn.t ho.;ird is r-,oinz to hi re her. 4138 J~I 7

Ju1v !; 1972 Tnne ]220 (In.rFt<lible). '.ff ARY· r,!ell, T r:ot the imnress:irm thnt is what the rr.inister said !fr. Snedcr. "erha.ps he con cD1rify it because I co not think it !'lakes zmv r1i :Ffcrencr,.. She coulrl io dmni ;in<l uor1: for the '.'t:inister of Social S,::>rvicc.s vt1or-m in t71f' Girls 1 'l'r.1inin? Hone as n tencher,i-F she rnmte<l tn,nr in the tro.ric school or out jn R nrivnte school or over in '.'h:ithourne,in t!ie Roys' Trnin1nr Hone, Sir.

Thnt is not the issue T ti.ink, if the Minister of education woold cfo.rifv thnt "ecnuse thnt is t}ic in:pression he left with me and I ;inid very strict attention to what the ninister had to sny. So. Sjr, T s1mport thp retition. I nottce in the Eouse today, Sir, nnother victory has bcP.n struc1· for Honen's lih. 4139

July 4, 1972 Tape No. 1221 NM - 1 I wottld say, Sir, that there would be no trouble to get members to stay up ninet~en, to stay in the House all night with that kind of system that we have now. Page girls, Sir, I am sure the honourable Premier, you would not be able to get him out of his seat. He would not even go on a fishing expedition, no more fishing expeditions down on the Gander, stay in the House. The honourable Premier was not here, he missed out. A beautiful young lady came into the Ho_use, the page boy.a all found jobs for the summer.

Now we have a page girl, another victory for wGmen's lib, I hope that Miss Norman can win a victory too, Sir. HON. T.P. HICKEY (Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of some one hundred and fifty voters of the community of Torbay. The prayer of the petition is that the road known as Convent Lane be upgraded and widened or that the work on it be continued,! should say. If possible, Sir, that the road be paved. Work commenced on it last 0ctbber and as it applied to many other roads after the election had ceased.

As a result of this ~onstruction which took place last fall, the road Bas been impassable on many occasions during the past spring, I would urge my colleage to see if he can find some money to continue this work, at least tO·complete the widening and upgrading of it. I ask that the House accept this petition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my wonderful friends in the Torbay area, my great supporters and friends, it gives me a great deal of pleasure to support the petition presented by the honourable member for St. John's East Extern. MR. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave of this honourable House to present a petition un behalf of a number ef residents in the Town of 4140

July 4, 1972 Tape No. 1221 NM - 2 Harbour Grace. The prayer of the petition, Sir, is wet the concemed people, demand that something be done in regard to ppllution in Harbour Grace,especiallY the broiler house on C.arbonear Road and any other and all pollution. In support of this petition, Sir, I woUld like to point out that neither I nor those people who signed 'the petition want to injure these people concerned or the industries. I was speaking with the manager of Ocean Harvesters over the weekend and he informed me that this meal plant, as of yesterday, was employing twenty-four people.

Now they also have pollution equipment on order,which would take about sixteen weeks before it could be installed~ I know, Sir, the town council and the officials of the Department of Health have been working at it for some time and now the residents of the to'W'Il, thmugh this honourable House, ask the officials of the Clean Air, Water and Soil to visit the area. This is a serjous problem, Sir, in the town. I trust something will be done and the people can begin to enjoy the comforts of their home. I am quite sure, Sir, that the member for Bell Island will support this petition,as he always does. I am sure.

Sir, that anything with a fishy smell,he is right there behind it. MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, I would like to support this petition from the member for Harbour Grace because I am from a polluted area as well and therefore I have to go along with him. I likewise am in the same position. I do not want to put anyone out of employment but right in South River,in Clarke's Beach,,at this particular time we only ask to have people to come there and even find out how bad it is. We have pollution on one end.

I have said before in this honourable House, that it is running down from Roache's Line, down in a salmou river, that there is no more salmon in that river now. We also have a he,nnery in Salmon Cove that we say belongs to Mr. George Chalk. He has been pulled over the coals pretty often about pollution. 4141

July 4, 1972 Tape No. 1221 NM - 3 It is not his fault. He has done evecything in the world that can be done to offset it, but the Fishe,:y Authority or something, do not give him permission to open up the dead water in the pond where the manure is going. Therefore,in the summer months when the water dries off it, you have nothing only a cesspool and therefore, right where I live, a-lot of people 1n the area just have to open their door and it is the same as years ago, you would not know but you were opening it up and taking a dump in.

Now this is a sad situation, I said before on the floor of this Hou.set I have to get up 4:00 o'clock every morning myself and take a pan and pan probably three or four horse loads of kelp that is running under my building and get it out of the way and use sometimes my construction pump to pump in salt water to clear it. I know something can be done about it. We need employment in this province. Do not think for one moment that I will stand in this honourable House against anyone making a living.

But I stand in this honourable House to back any man or any person or persons to try to make an enviironment flt for human beings to live in. I think at the present time in South River and Clarke's Beach, if we hold on that we will have to have a resettlement or something or other. So I gladly support this petition. Thank you. DR. ROWE: I likewise support the petition presented by the honourable member for Harbour Grace.

I would like to draw the attention of the honourable House to the fact that there are certain areas in the province where similar situations arise with regard to public nuisance created by odours Tesulting from hennery establishments' and fish plants·and like industries. There is no doubt that the individuals who live in the immediate area of suCh establishments have· rights which have to be respected and in this regard I have had discussions with the Director of the Environmental Health Division~· W~ilst he must ensure that the 4142

July 4, 1972 Tape No. 1221 NM - 4 right of a person to conduct a business is respected, he must also respect the rights of individual citizens. In the past two days I have received delegations from South River, communications from the Town Council in Carbonear and now the petition from the people of Harbour Grace, so there are indeed many areas where similar problems exist. Whether the process of dumping the offal, the manure on select sites away from settlements is the answer or whether sone chemical process of deodorizing should be used, we must take some specific action.

It would appear that the problem has mainly arisen because of the fact that permits have been given to individuals to establish businesses without full regard to the possible consequences. At this time of the year, with the hot weather and the possibility of numerous flies and fly-borne disease, it is ever more important that we under­ take some action to clean up the areas where these problems are evident. The whole problem of pollution at this time is a very current one and we must take a very serious view of thP situations as presented in the petition.

Certainly town councils should not give permits for further types of these businesses unless they are located within at least one mile from any house in any settlement~ I thi.nk we have to co-operate ver; closely with the Clean Air, Water and Soil Division. In any case they do represent public hazards and nuisances and cm behalf of the Department of Health,I would ensure that we would do our best to endeavour to solve in some way the immediate problems. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I can think of no ttenber more qualified in this honourable House to bring in a petition on manure than the honourable member for Harbour Grace. But nevertheless, Sir, I am happy to support the petition. I know now, Sir, where I can get the manure to grow mushrooms on Bell Island. I run happy to support the petition. I do not know if the Minister Of Health indicated to the House that he would take a look at the situation. I am happy to hear 4143

July 4, 1972 Tape No. 1221 N?1 - 5 that, Sir, so that the people in the area cnn get rid of the flies ari the odour in that particular part of Conception Bay. I am sure it must be an awful nuisance. I hope thnt the Minister of Health or the Minister of Municipal Affairs will put it high on his list of priorities. Mll.· l!ICK!1AN: 'Mr. Speaker, l give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill entitled, A Bill. 11An Act Further To Amend The Workmen 1 s Compensation Act, 1962," it will appear on the flrder 'P2rer ns amendnent n?. 2, 1972.

On behalf of the honourable the Pinir-ter of Municipal Affairs and Housing, "An Act further To ;\mend The St. John's Housing Corporation Act 4 11 H0NaJ.C.CR0SBIE: (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill, entitled, a Bill, 11

An Act Further To Amend The Newfounalund and Labrador Corporation Limited Act, 1964. 11 NOTICES OF QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: HON. F. D. MOORES (Premier}: Mr. Speaker, answer to question number 108, this has been tabled in the House during the estimates, but it is brief so I will give the answers now. The answer to number 1 is yes, number 2(

a) Chief Executive Assistant, number 2(

b) May 1, 1972, 2(c) $28,000 per year, 2(

b) yes per one year, renewable at the pleasure of the Executive Council, number 2(e) 303-01. Answer to question no. 120. Number 1 is no, number 2 is not applicable. Answer to question no. 129. To the best of my knowledge now, and this will be checked further, Mr. Speaker, if there is anything that comes from it, it will be tabled, but the "no 1111 means that number (2) of that same question is not applicable. I will table these. e 4144

July 4, 1972 Tape No. 1221 NM - 6 HON. R.L. CHEESEMAN,(Minister of Fisheries~ Mr~ Speaker, I would like to table the answers to questions nos. 123, 124 and 125 - June 27. HON. DR. A, T. ROWE (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the answer to question number 23, Order P8per, May 30. HON. DR. T. C. FARRELL (Minister of Highways): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the answers to question number 33, ntullber 71 and number 63. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR.

ROWE {F.W.): I was listening to the Minister of Education, listening to the comments he made in support of the petition that I presented earlier this afternoon. The impression that I got was that a teacher now has to indicate the board that she plans to teach with,for purposes of certification. I was wondering if the minister could clarify that, Sir. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that in order for a teacher to be certified 9 ~e or she is either certified under the Roman Catholic Denominational Education Committee, the Integrated or the Pentecostal.

Now as this is the certification set-op as it exists at the moment, a person has to indicate which particular denominational board he or she wishes to be certified under. It is a routine matter. It is merely a matter of choosing which dooi to enter. It is not that any particular door is barred to anyone but it is just that there are three doors and one of the doors, you have to go through one of them. It is a mechanical distinction only, a logistical distinction, if you like. It has nothing to do with discrimination.whatsoever.

But a person in order to be processed,if you wish, has to indicate which particular denominatio~al committee he or she wishes to work with. That is what I meant by that statement. MR. ROWE: Can I add something, Mr. Speaker, to that question. What is the situation if a ?rospective teacher does not want to teach with any 4145

July 4, 1972 Tape No. 1221 NM - 7 of the denominational education boards in the province? What is the situation if he or she wishes to go to the Mainland to teach for example or teach at a trade school,in an upgrading course? MR. CARTER: I can certainly look further into that. But my understanding at the moment is that this is merely a certification,under any one of these particular groupst to enable a person to teach all over Newfoundland, in any school, or any school board may hire them. But I can certainly check further into this.

I think the honourable member's question, as I understand it, is that a person who has no intention of teach under any particular school board but wishes to teach, say at the trade school, night school or something like that, it is my understanding that 4146

July 11, 1972, Tape 1222, Page 1 -- apb one of these three doors still has to be gone through. I will check further and give him a complete explanation. 1-!L Speaker. I would like to direct a question to the honourable Premier. I would like to ask the Premier if the government have appointed the judicial ~nquiry to investigate the chaq~es of corruption made against me as member of the House of Assembly for Bell Island, by the ~inister of Social Services and Rehabilitation? If not, could the Premier indicate when the appointment will be r.mde? Vil. MOORES, ··---·-- Mr.

Speaker, there is no command enquiry to investigate the charges of corruption against the honourable member for Bell Island. The enquiry,as I understand it, will be appointed to investigate the matters of possible corruption within the department on Bell Island. Either way, Mr. Speaker, the committee has not been appointed yet and an announcement will be made in due course. MJL HICKEY, ~r. Speaker, on a Point of Privilege; Let me just put on the record for about the fiftieth time that I made no charges of personal corruption against the honourable member for Bell Islnnd .. Is he not tired of beating the thinr,?

Does he want to beat it some More? What the honourable gentleman said is a matter of record. If the Leader of the Opposition or anybody else wishes to debate this item, all they have to do is bring in a motion. I can assure them that I run prepared to debate it from now until kingdom come. :'fR. NEARY: He have Hansard. MR • SPEAKER , We have debated this somewhat. I am not cuttinµ off debate on it but I do not think we should get into a prolonged debate on the thing ariain. for the Opposition. The Chair does recognize the honourable House Leader MR.

W.N.ROWE, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Economic Development. I understand that the workers are not back to 4147

July 4, 1972, Tape 1222, Page 2 -- apb work with Procon on the Come by Chance refinery project. Does the honourable minister know now whether the government_ will have to stand any loss under the force majeure clause of the construction contract? If so. does he have any idea how much it is likely to cost the public treasury? }'R, CROSBIE: No, ~e have no claiM for any alleged loss yet. ~r. -~ - ~ Speaker. I helieve that due to the short duration of the shutdown, there would unlikely he any. MR. WOQDWARD: I would like to direct a question to the honourable Minister of Economic Development.

Is the honourable minister prepared to tell the House what is happeninp as far as the )'Vancouver Forest' is concerned. Is she dischargin~ wood in Stenhenville or is she discharging outside the harbour limits? Will this in any way delay the shippinp, of wood from Coose Bay? Has the Department of Transport had a dredge into the harbour at Stephenville yet? HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, this is rather a complicated matter. I will ~ive the honourable member a partial report today. The position is that the vessel 'Vancouver Forest!' has not gotten into the harbour at Stephenville as yet.

Whether she is goinp: to get in there at the present time or not 1I do not know. The dred~e that was supposed to oroceed to Stephenville Harbour and be there on June 19, as we were informed by the Department of Transport,did not arrive, althou~h we were told every day that she was enroute. On Friday, June 30, we were informed that this dredge,which was supposed to have been enroute,had now blown her generator,in New Brunswick,and therefore could not proceed to Stephenville. Attempts are now being made to find another dredge to do the necessary work.

There was an attempt madc1 yesterday I believe, to move the 1'Vancouver Forest' into Stephenville Harbour. but it had to he abandoned. There may be another attempt made today. We are having some problem there with pilots also, as to whether they will or will not take her in, All this is being gone into with the Department of Transport today. 4148

Julv 4, 1972, Tape 1222, Page 3 -- apb (Inaudible) Yes, Y:r~ Speaker, there is plenty - let me just make this very clear, 1'1"r. Speaker. The necessity for this dredging at ' Ste.pehnville, to remove the dog leg from this channel nnd to widen the channel, has been known to the Department of Transport, to put it at the very least, since last fall. They have knmm about it since April of this year~ We delivered them a letter on it early in :,lay of this year pointing out what dredging is necessary at Stephenville and noose Bay. We were told that the dredge would be at Stephenville on June 19.

It will take some three or four days to dredge this dog leg out of the channel, to widen the channel. He were told,every dny since June 19, that the dredge was on its way. We were told,on June 30, that the dredge,which was supposed to leave New Brunswick that day, had now blmm its generator and therefore could not proceed to Stenhenville. There has been plenty of plannin~ done in connection with this but there is a lack of execution on behalf of someone in the Federal Government. We are taking over a situation left to us by the honourable gentlemen and doing our best with it. Mr.

Speaker, that is the position on it. I have been in touch with the Department of Transport twice coday and we are hopin? to have some progress. If the worse comes to the worse, this vessel will have to discharge its logs or its cargo in St. George 1 s Bay, and they will have to be boomed into Stephenville Harbour from there. A supplementary question, Hr. Speaker. Will the honourable minister tells us if the other ships,I understand there are two other ships supposed to go on charter, will they go to Goose Bay to load under those conditions? One is approaching Goose Bay. HR.

WOODWARD; One is approaching Goose Bay? '14R. WINSOR: !ir. Speaker 1 maybe I can ask a supplementary question. 4149

July 4, 1972~ Tape 1222, Page 4 -- apb How are the ships chartered? Are they chartered by the day or by the ton? If so. there must be a demurage involved that will - ~. CROSBIE: They are time chartered. PR. \!INSOR! They are time chartered, so therefore they are- }-~~ROSBIE~:. Daily charter. J"T~iJ!!.f'~: Dnily charter. '~. ('RO~S_Bl!:_:, They nre chartered for a period of months at a daily hire. YR .. ~INS_,9_R~c I was thinking that 1 f the ship were chartered by the ten or by the cord, then there must be a dernurage. charge somewhere - by the delay caused by not getting in to discharge ~ '1R.

CROSBIE: Every day that there is any delay in this, it is costing us rwncy, I can assure you that. AJ~Q]'J___:_ }fEti,BF!._:. About five thousand dollars, I would say. }IR. CF!'SBIE· Right, about that. 11R. RORERTS:, !-fr. Speaker, if I may ask a question of the honourable Pinister of Highways. I assure you I gave him noticf' hut I do not know if he has been able to Ret the answer. I have had,in my role as thP. riuasi-omhudsman for either Burin District or Placentia West, representation from Fox Cove. I am not sure which constituency it is in. AN HON. l!El-'BER • MR. ROBERTS: It is in Placentia West.

It is in Placentia West. People there would like to know if the road in their community is ~oin~ to be paved. Roads are being paved in the nearby conimunities of ~ortier and Port au Bras and Red Harbour. That,of course, is what leads to their ouestion • .Q.1h._£ft~Iq!ELL: Mr. Speaker, in answer to the honourable member for White Bay North, I would like to beg permission to table this question. I will be glad to bring the information forward when I get the relevant information. l'ffi· F.FOWE~:O Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable ~inister of Finance.

I was wondering if the minister has 4150

July 4. 1972i Tape 1122, Page 5 -- apb had an opportunity to 'find out how many of the graduate students at the university who ;,,-ould normally be recommended for a fellowship has in fact been denied a fellowship for this corning year? Hr~ Speaker 1 I am very glad the honourable gentleman asked that question. As a matter of fact, the Minister of Education and myself and his officials have had a look into that question. I think it will be found that everyone who needs a fellowship - there will not be any undue hardship at all in connection with people vho need fellowships at Memorial this year.

Another ouestion, }l'r. Speaker. Have the oualifications chanred ·or have the standards been changed at all for purposes of receiving a fellowship? CROSBIE· -----· Not that I know of. I am not saying that the fifty- six or whatever :it is are all 1.winr; to get fellowshi_ps, but anyone who needs - HR. F.ROWE: still people. BuE£.et Debate: What I have to say - relevant question,.. so there are ORDERS OF THE DAY: MFL SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the honourable member for White Bay South. HR. iLN.ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, the resumed Budget Debate: Let mesa~ at the outset, Sir, that in spite of the fact that over the last couple of weeks I labouriously gathered some very important notes, which I had hoped to deliver myself of in this debate, that subsequently the honourable House Leader and I had a very amicable discussion on this whole matter- We have agreed,Sir, and my colleagues agree,(and I would presume that his colleagues agree) that many of the questions that would ordinarily arise in a Budget Speech debate have been dealt with in a more or less satisfactory fashion.

Less satisfactory to us, probably more satisfactory to the governemnt, but they have been dealt with during the course of the estimates being piloted through 4151

July 4, 1972. Tape 1222, Page 6 -- apb the House of Assembly in committee stafe. Therefore, Sir, we have a~ree.d that we should perhaps cnrtnil further debate on the Budget Speech. The majr, reason for this - AN _HON. Ef}1BER; (Inaudible) MF. ROWE· Do you want to speak? You may if you wish. The main reason for this, Sir, J1eing thnt members are anxious now to pet out to their districts and see their constituents and travel around the countryside. }finisters of the govermnent are anxious as well to get to the work of administering the province, the public needs of the province.

Therefore, we have decided that we will not have any prolonged debate on the Budiet Speech. Also. S~r: the Premier, who originally announced that he would be speaking on the Budpet Speech?has now decided to demur and decided not to speak durinr this particular debate. Of course if he had spoken, that would hnve led to some S?eech-making on this side of the House as well.

Since he is not poinr to sneak,apparently~in this debnte, (that is of course part of the agreenent) we do not see any need over here,at the moment, of rehashinp: am:1 irnfng :into many of the thinfs that we have nlre3dy discussed on the estimates. The r,rinister of Finance who cowmenced the debate by bringinr down the Budp.et, has agreed that he will this afternoon clue up this debate now and nnrt of our tacit or informal agreement is that he shall do so in a perfunctory manner. he will not p-et involved in acrimonious debate of the kind that would ordinarily need to be answered by the Opposition farty.

He will more or less perfunctorily c:lue un this rif\bate. Hopefully, we will then be in a position,when that debate is clued un this afternoon, to launch into the legislation which remains before the House. None of it is very leni:rthy. We can launch into that ler,islation and maybe in a couple of days we can clue un this session. Of course, we are also willing over here.as well, to give up private members 1 day,{that is if there is unanimous consent of the 4152

July 4. 1972, Tape 1222, Page 7 -- apb House) to facilitate the debate on the legislation which is before the House. If this were earlier in the year, Sir, we would not of course make this concession, because there would be no need to. We are anxious to get out and see our constituents. Also, the government has announced an intention of caliing the House together in the fall, late in the fall or very early in the New Year, when they will have an opportunity to lay before the House their programme for the coming year,at least 1 nnd perhaps for the succeeding three of four years.

We are quite willing now,{having said what we have to say on the estimates, and having heard the government I s say on the estimates) to allow the matter to rest for the time being and go at it again when the fall session is called on the various items of legislation. Of course, next year when the budget is brought down, the new government will then have a record of commission or omission as the case might be. It will have a record of conduct and activities which the Opposition can then get into in a better fashion.

So far during this session, we have merely been talking mainly about sins or misdemeanors of the past, as seen by the government. This Opposition has not had very much opportunity to get its teeth into actual activities or actions taken by the present administration. Next year we will have an onportunity to do that and we should have a full and complete debate, not only on the estimates but on the budget as well.

On those conditions, Sir, the condition that the Premier does not speak nnd on the condition that the f-linister of Finance will now deliver himself of a clue-up type of speech, 8 perfunctory, non­ acrimonious speech on cluinp. up the Budget Debate, we will all resume out seats and listen to him with a great deal of alacrity. Mr. Speaker, these are very tough and stringent requirements. First: To be perfunctory, when I listened to the honourable Leader of the Opposition and one or two of the other speeches opposite, but it seems now that those speeches took place many months 4153

July 4, 1972, Tape 1222, Page 8 -- apb ago, I was in a little bit of a furor and thought I might have a go at the nrguments advanced when I r-ot my turn. But as I say, it is so many weeks and weeks and weeks, and words and words and words and weary hours of ynk ai:co that 4154

July 4, 1972 Mr. Crosbie. Tape no. 1223 - 1224 Page I - MRW I have not now the strength nor the enterprise to launch into a vigorous rebuttal of what we have heard. Mr. Speaker, we had four weeks of debate on the estimates and I think that most things have been covered. I just want to say,on behalf of the government,that this Budget Speech has presented the facts to the people of Newfoundland,for the first time in many years,as to what our financial position is.

Anyone who wants to know what the facts are, what Newfoundland's financial-position is, what are our options, what are our alternatives, will find it in this Budget Speech. It is a pretty sad story because, Mr. Speaker, we are at the stage in our financial affairs when it is quite obvious that the problem is; are we going to be able to find sufficient monies to carry on the services that we have? That is the problem .. much less expand and cover new services. We have set that all out in the Budget Speech,Mr. Speaker.

We have shown how we intend to try to overcome the problems that were left to ua, with a view to what the budget states will be carried out. The four-year financial plan has been commended. All departments of government, all agencies, all commissions have been written. They have been told what information we want to prepare a four-year plan on the capital side of government,with its implication on current account.

They are to have the information to us this month,as far as they can, showing what each department feels. it needs on capital account for new buildings, extensions and so on,for the next four years, the university and all the other groups concerned. We will receive all that information this summer.

It will be analysed and the administration will make a decision this year as to what our four-year plan is going to be, what the priorities will be, what we can do for each of these departments or institutions and what we cannot do, We will tell Memorial University, i.e., what we believe we will be able to afford for Memorial University in capital account for the next four years and that they are just going to have to wait. We will 4155

July 4, 1972 Tape no. 1223 - 1224 Page 2 Hr. Crosbie. have to give them a decision on what size they are going to grow to. We are going to have to give them a guideline and not only Hemorial 1 because I just use that for purposes of illustration,but every endeavour that is financed by means of the province,by the Government of Newfoundland, When that is done, Mr. Speaker, we will know where we are. Let me just say this: I have stated this in the Budget Speech.

"Request for expenditure not included in the estimates are not p.oing to be looked on favourably.n I know,as Minister of Finance~ Hr, Speaker. that there will be some things, some emergencies that will crop up, matters which have not been covered and that there will be some additional expenditure not covered in the estimates, some supplementary supply, but it is going to be very limited if I can humanly do it Mr. Speaker. It will be very, very limited because this province cannot afford, Hr. Speaker, to continue having current account deficits. We had one for last year.

We have one forecast for this year, some $3 million,and we are now getting in a position where we are going to have larger and larger current account deficits unless strict action is taken. In addition to that we have on the capital side the largest expenditure I believe in our history.On the capital side we are going to be spending something like $184 million . It is a huge amount,despite all the cries we have heard,and therefore, strict discipline has to be imposed, We have to see where we are goin~ and where it is going to come from and what our future is. Mr.

Speaker, we cannot be disconcerned about what is going to happen this year or next year. We must be concerned about what is going to happen in the next four or five and in the decade after that, Whether this province is viable or not, that is what we have to worry about. It does not matter what party is in power here in four or five years time, if we do not stick to and carry out what we have indicated in this budget, this province will turn out not to be viable in four or five or 4156

July 4, 1972 Hr. Crosbie Tape no. 1223-1224 ten years time and that is an end which none of us desire. Page 3 So, Mr. Speaker, we will know next year if the government are carrying out the intenti-ons as disclosed in the budget. I think you will find that it will be. I do not believe that next year is going to be any easier year than this year. I believe that it is going to take two or three years to get us in the position where we can really start to move forward rapidly. It is our intention to concentrate our priorities on trying to develop our revenue base,as far as we can,in the next two or three years. MR.

ROWE (W.N.): The year before the election now is important. MR. CROSBIE: That is important, the year before the election is important. This year is important. Next year is important. We pay no attention to elections. The year after the election is important. That does not concern us~Mr. Speaker.because we know that we shall be returned. We know we are here for at least eight or ten years and after that we want to go .• The honourable gentleman from Snails Island will be an ex--reember after the next election. Now I am supposed to be perfunctory.Mr. Speak.er. I do not want to make it different.

I just want to conclude by saying that our emphasis and our priority must be on attempting to develop our revenue base here in Newfoundland so that we can get more money to carry on the services we have now,and we hope to improve them. This is what the budget indicates must be done • If we just carry on as was done in the last four or five years,on the same trail, the budget shows that in the next three years we would have a deficit of $2.5 billion, that is if our borrowing continued at the same rate of increase. The facts and figures are all there. So, Mr. Speaker, we do not intend to carry on that way.

This is a statement of our financial intentions. Next year we will have our four-year plan worked out. The various departments of government and commissions and bodies will know what we think we can do for them in 4157

July 4, 1972 Mr. Crosbte Tape no. 1223 -1224 Page 4 the next four years. We will have a plan and in that way we trust we can bring this province forward and deal with the tremendous problems that are revealed in the budget. I, therefore, move,Mr. Speaker,that you leave the Chair and that we move into Committee of Ways and Means. On motion that the House go into Committee of Ways and Means. Mr. Speaker left the Chair. On motion that the committee rise, report progress ·and ask leave to sit again~ Mr~ Speeker returned to the Chair. On motion report received and adopted.

On motion comr.iittee ordered to sit again presently by leave. On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole to consider certain Resolutions respecting the amendments of the Income Tax Act, 1961, Hr. Speaker left the Chair. RESOLUTION: "That it is expedient to bring in a measure further to amend the Income Tax Act, 1961, the act no. of 1961, second session. 11 HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I presume that we will debate this in principle now in the usual way on the Resolution. This is

an act to amend the Income Tax Act,1961. This is necessary because of the changes in the recently enacted Federal Income Tax Act and the various clauses in the act were drafted in the Department of Justice on the basis of data furnished by the Federal Department of Finance at Ottawa. lt is for our legislation and we will conform to the new Income Tax changes. Now the points of principle that are of any importance in this bill, Mr. Chairman, are that under the old Income Tax Legislation the rate for Newfoundland was thirty-three per cent. The personal income tax rate was thirty-three per cent of the basic tax,on your tax form,after the 4158

July 4, 1972 Mrs Crosbie. Tape no. 1223-1224 Page 5 federal abatement of twenty-eight per cent. The Government of Canada allow a twenty-eight per cent rebatement for the provinces and our rate was thirty-three per cent. ~the rate of other provinces is higher. Sowe are the same. After the enactment of this legislation the personal Income Tax rate for Newfoundland will be thirty-six per cent of the new tax base. There will no longer be the concept of basic tax. Now thirty-six per cent on the new tax base will yield the same to Newfoundland as thirty-three per cent of the old basic tax used to yield.

Therefore, the passage of these amendments will receive about the same amount of revenue as we got under thirty-three per cent of the basic tax. But now the rate will be thirty-six per cent of a new tax base. Under the new federal legislation and this legislation some lower income groups will pay less income tax, some middle income people will pay more.

That is already familiar~ The issue is being debated now(and in the House of Commons for several years and most certainly a year)to take advantage of the revenue guarantee of the Government of Canada, that is their guarantee that the province will receive,for the said next five years, the same revenue under the new tax system as under the old tax system. With respect to personal income tax and incorporate tax we had to agree to increase the rate to thirty-six per cent of the new base which Ottawa says will return us the ·same as thirty-three per cent of the old base.

I just wish to point out that this was agreed to by the previous administration before they left office. We have seen no reason to change it and that is why it is now important to pass these amendments to the Income Tax Act. On motion Resolution carried. RESOLUTION: "That it is expedient to bring in a measure further to amend the Loan and Guarantee Act, 1957, act no. 70 of 1957 to provide for the advance of loans to and the guarantee of the repay.m.ent of bonds or debentures issued by or loans and grants to certain corporations. 11 4159

July 4, 1972 MR. CROSBIE: Tape no. 1223 -1224 Page 6 l presume in the usual practice we will treat this as though it were second reading. This is legislation which comes before the House every year on loans and guarantees.

Any guarantee of leans made during the previous years by the Executive Council of the Cabinet have to be approved by the House of Assembly,under the Loan and Guarantee Act, 1957. lf honourable gentlemen will look at the bill which accompanies the resolution 1 they will see a list of the loans, most of which, of cnurse~ were loans that were guaranteed by the Liberal Administration prior to January 18, 1972. I will give some information on each loan as I have it here. Clarenville Dock Yards and Ship Builders Limited, $30,500. That was a guarantee given by an Order-in-Council in the fall of 1971.

There is an agreement dated November 9, 1971,between the province and Clarenville Dock Yards and Ship Builders Limited which stipulates the repayment of the loan by November 1981. This is a guaranteed bank loan. 4160

t,,ne 1225 'T"hnt WAS to enable a new group to take over the shipyard at r1,1r0nvi11c an~l one.rat? it. As fnr ns l l:nou.wc hr!.vc not hnd any 'l''1e second loan r rcorp-c Enrcrlev. Er.berley I s Transport n.nil f1fstrihttors, iA n ;11..n.rantera :i'n the ~rount cf t;zn.r1n° uhich w;,.s the .--:1r:ction.. This is n. r:m:ir,mteer1 hnnk lnn.n for five yenrs so that 'fr. >-mh,rlf'v co1c1d ohtain two new trPcVB tdth cargo hoxes. l t,cJicve JP , 1 tlsc lmsincss is locnted in tlw Hnrin District. Tt is 0, dep.1rturc fro'r lonn for this purriosc 111:t tn :mv event the there is S?il.0fH1.

That is n r:unrnntee <lat,,f •-tnvcrher P, 1C71 nnr'! ;,,...,reed on nt'tnhcr 1 l. This is in connection Hith ,-, 1--innl: loan to erect A hom0 "or senior citizenn in C'anr1 e-r. \!oF. ' 1r. Chairnnn. npnnrentlv the pr,1icv thnt the- last n.dninistrat-fon ntlo;Jtcd ts·as thnt th2v Hm1lrl f"t1nrn;1tce fl 100n for the down n;,ynent for vc;ir nntil thA 1orm was paid of, Thnt is thr nrranPPrr,nt Fit½ this Jbit is 11 r:twrnritce dnted ApriJ 11, 1972. The 1o:m td11 e:rnir0 '-tnrch 11, 1 °7J.

The. ru2nmtee wns renuirccl heci.'!.t1se of the flntrnci.,"1 nnsition 'iewfoundlend Co-operative Services found Hs>d f in nt thnt time. Thcv Herc owed sore $17 .nru) by ~.rewfonm11rmC t\1rn Prnc111cts n.nr1 t'.wre ,;,rou1d be sorne delay before they r;ot thnt 10cm :md t'.wrc.fore. tl:ey nee~_'.ed SDJ;JC. f:i.nr:ncinl .nssistnnce hv Hav of n ::.u:1nmte0C honk J ine of crerlit. The fifth lorm, '1ewfounrll:md Err M;uketinr ·nourd 'fi'f': ~1r. Chaimnn, r>2y T iust rise for a point of order. Tt nny not hen noint of order hut I wou1d like some ~uiCance on it. ~'.rine ,yF nv roHenPrn?s has Bi11 :'Jo. hl.

I rlo not l:nou if any of the 4161

'!'npc 1:125 0t11cr T'le>r'7crs or t':70 0t~1('r sf (1P of t 11f' 'l0ttsP have. T Just nm int0 rcr,1hr-r nf the rircss trhn s,1.;,_1 thnt it hns not h0cn djstrihnted ;int! "!'-"R ~0'.T(Tl ''P f"'RD~1H"' · in :> rmr-cnr- hut -t• in the rPantinP vnn ~11.17 inst mn.1/c n not,:, of the ,"l'70ttnts ;is T ,ir ?nin;· ovvr vnc 11 nnr,. Tf :it is n0t distrih1tP1 1,tto11l- 1 t 110 C!.r:irl: ;,lN1sc scf' t 11P ~ill is r1Jstrib11t~r~.

T110 next lcrin ts 'fr:,-1fnum'.1.:-•n,l Ef'.V '•'nrh2tin"' T'.0nrc1 ... <::1n.nn0 nnd t 11e ;,tirpnsr nf th;-,t 1n:1n 1.::::01~, it is a p:u;,rnntec ,l;,terl Au~ust 12 1971. 1'' ':110 hoan 1 r.00rlr,1 1 f1,r,, s L'lwn it st:irtcfi nn,1 it is nnw r,;iyl;,c> its nun F?V but nti11 n0er1s. t'.,orc is still ,.., srr.1.1 hnlnri,ce left of thnt Joan sri it is stiJ1 i.n pffcct.

"'11c s-l"<th .1.o:m is 'i0uf01mr 1!.cn1 1 etc.cl (10(/') Li7iter1 ,::; 700.nnr. 'f'hnt is:, ~nnr:irtcc ptJ1ch ~-ms riri..-ir.,'11lv .Sl 70!1 nr.n 1~n '·',:1rr1, 1".. to :irriv1r'r w0r;:inr icunrls fnr the stef'l r.J11 nt t'1c llct;:iPon nrin3. ·the rie:, t 100n. the ptL1rPntcc ir; ricc.cin ''ist. ,..,n, 1nct,; (1nr1) 1;!"'."-Jtc,1 t:J'.'"', hf1'1. Tl-u,t is n rn:arm:tee rlnt0c 1 f!St:-{hlic,!d:;:.~;:, rishinr O"crnti.on ;,t ""t. Lun:1.ir0. Tlda Jc,;,,n 1s nnt ~'nr1·inc: rrnt ton 1-•f'l.1. Thrv nrc in default , "r. ".:1cnh::r. ;,nr1 •-·e nre 11ro!lnt'lv n1in'" to l:,;:vc to n,:i.v ttn !'or thic, nmr-'1ntec.

T~w hcnnur;,f'1c ;;•cnt.10r•Jn orynnsite 1Jot1.i.d l·•1n,1 at:out it. This is i1 s'.ll 0 si:linrv 0f '!~:"C:OR Li" i tei1, fl.nvunv 1 t ,1ir! n0t r_1n too i-;e1 J ;,m1 vc ::.tr<' roin" to th,,.,t one. ~1r. r]w.i.rr,,nn? 4162

' 1n. T do not rc.nPt1ber the exact r:letnils 0f it but would r:Je honnurnhle rintster nention if the principals of that con:Janv J1nc'i ti12ir rcrson:il r:1n.nmtees cm it. T think they r.1::1. !f ny F'.e!'lory serves re correctlv thcv dir1 ,i.n wh:i.ch case two or three of tho;;e c·ent1cf'Dn ,1re ncn of ncnns ,1nd T wo11}d lil'e tn kno1.; if thC' governnsent intends to .>'o aFter the principals nersonolly., if the rrovernricnt hns tn n;J.V up. T cannot he o}:nct now as to whether tl-icre wen, personal '"'narantces T thinl" that there prohnbly were.

In any event the honourable r:entlc.nnn can tnYc it fnr r:ranted that we will r,urstH: ~•!h;,.tever snn.:rttv ':IC hnvc and if there n.re personal ruarnntees ·we will nurm.1e thcl11. Der:errher 7. 1971 the. :?rmk nf ~fova Scotin rrmde n fornal rli"f"nnd for rennyncnt. He hrwe not pnicl,so it nay be thtt thev are N1n:;11inr: J t 1,rith th0 principals. Pnc-Atlantie Lif"litefl B]5n,nn0. Ttrnt wn.s :c r;uarantee 9:i.ven nctn'.:icr 12, 197.1.

Tt is a ruarnntce of 11 hank lo;i_n to remain in e'fect 1mt:f1 nctoher 31, 1'177, to assi~t in the ;1ro..,o~erl exrH1nston of this operation 2t Stephenville. 'T'herC' sec.r:-,s to he n rensonn"hl.e er11dtv hv the r,nrent conpnnv :md the loan is backed hy a prom5ssory n0tn,sii:ned hv ~t:1.r'inc International Cornoration.should we he calJP<l 1m0n to 1'."li'Jl··e _roo,1 on the r:uarantee. The princir,nJ is to he re raid in ncconlnnce to sound business accounting princinles 2:nd so on. The loan is not in arrears now nn<l that is a f'.Unrantee ,in any event., in connection wi.th the herrinr: ooeration in Stephenville.

Then there is a lonn, \~r. r:hatrrr:an, Reict's Products L'.f.riterl,~315~()00, n more cmm1i.cnte{ 1 one. T do not have my f-Ue here noF. Thnt is a 12:uarantec r 1 0ted Au_i!ust lL 1°71,whic:h was ennroved bv the r:abin~t July 26, 1971. The nurpnf.e of the loan is to assist in the construction of a multi­ purpose fish ;,rocesnin?: plant at Tic,yd t'\rm,in the District of m1ite 4163 JV - 3

July li. J.972 T:1pc 1225 1s still in effr>ct tm(1 l do not have any Jntc repnrt on ho,,,- successfully he :Ls procecc'.in; whi1 thB 'T1.'1tter is hein;:, ched;e~ into. ''-~-·-- ~RO~':f:_(~~ ·?,; Sol".'c or thnt was i.nteri:.1 finnncim.,. until the. nP.r:E pr,1.nt cnr·r, in. ~m C'Ro-;rnr: There ~ms r:unr,osed to l>c n DFP:E f'r:>nt cone in anct it is n] 1 oni tc cor.if'l icntcf' but vc <'rill be nble to report to the 1lousP next vcnr hnw it r>clJ. turns rn~t. Tt ts heinf' chcckctl on nt t'.le trorent ,'1m..-·•u;w. T7e nc::t lrian in f!errrc ~e::tnn Linitcr1~S7f1.0fln, ~crtcrh;r '2B.

J.071.. qn,,r there is n r,unrantf'f' ""rr <,5n,nrin Centeri.be.r 2P. 1071 on<l .:; sccnnr1 r~1~r;1nt0f' or S;'11JHV' •12rcl, 15, 107;1, The n11rf"ose of the 1oan is to 11r0vi<1c orerntinf crc, 1it f"nr a sntnr:ilJ nnd lorvinr opernt1on at Vencn1:0,t- Tcrr:-.i :,1ov;i.

T1tc conp:iny L; c.stn 1;,J.isl::!n; n srwr;,ilJ .nn,1 l0;ninr orcratjon t½crc nnt' this is to pssist thrn in nrovi, 1infl" 1or,,.-:!nr- c,1.'"litnl for th;, onvrnt1nn,Hh.ic11 is st1cC'.0ssful to dntc n.nr1 Fr'irh sli0u1,1_ continue to he ntd tc s11cccss ftil. ;, note here thnt it hus been incrensc.d to s:nr:, nnn nn•l T ,:'lo rot lrnot,i u1wt11er thn.t ts rid1t or nnt 1-mt an,r•.;ray we are onlv 2pnrrn.'inn- SlR~.0()0.

This is also to r,rovi.Cc ;u~sist.nnce tmmn1r; t!w cnst of constructi.on of ;i senior citizens hnrr ir. \orncr Rrook ctnrl th:1t is procrezlin,.. noH. tis n v:atter of" fnr:t thf' or0vious r:ovcrnrnent e,lso cnr.ri.itte. 1 the province to :,,;,ke yc:irJv n-rrmts to the 0 cst Co<'<st Trter-f;d.th Soci:?1 "el:"nrc founci.1 for ten ven.rs so th:it thev cnul<l nny 0f., the loan occu;'J:ancy of the 1 n2 h0ds. Sn re:illv the rovcrr:;1ent is cnr,r,letelv rcs;1onsible for t!1c loan.

The forr:i on which it is dcne is n f1.ctinn. rtrst ue o:uarnntee n 1nnn t-Jhtc:-, 0nncnrs as n ;.u11r:mtceL 1 loan,ns thourh the borrower is roinr_ to rny itoff uid then the rovcrnncnt apret'S tn '1?.h:~ ther<' ten ve;:irs e,rnnts to ri.w off the 1mm. So it ir. not o Jonn nt 4164

Tnnc 1225 n 11 rcn.l lv, it is a r:rant. t!'nt this :is necessnrv. 011r fee1inr- i.s thet w:i th resne.ct t0 construction o" hnr-:cs for the 2red or senior citizen,:. in th:is rirovince thr!t Pt ,nnrnntce of ninety cdr:ht neri:ent of occu;lnncv shonli:-1 he sufficient nnr! that t 1tP neo'llr; vho r-0t the >'HJ.rnntee s!iou1C,with th;,t rrm1rantec Pntc0rtunnte1v, the ;,rc-v-Jo11s r<lrrinistr:iti.on in three cases 'Pent furthe,.- Corner Brook, Cnnder anc1 Grand Fnlls. r.omer Brook, 0ctnrlcr Rncl GrnnC Fn11s. On,1url:ihle).

Yes, but now we want, nhat I an say inr i.s • 1 thin1· the Ufni.ster nf Sncinl Services hqs nJre;idv sairl it. we rire roinr to c-irnnp-c this ;-;m1 r0 b.nck to uhnt shnu]rl ½e the policv 2ml thnt is thot :i ninrctv-cir;ht 7f'rccnt f'tmrantee of nrcur,nncv is eno11r;h.

I feel sure thnt ire cnn finrl peonle who wi.11 build anr, oriern.te olf npe homer on t½;,t hnsis. 71,e. nf'xt }ocm~Tern, ':'i;wn Shoes LiY"ited,S92,1l00, The.re are two ,.,11nr;,ntces, one for tf,fJ,rv1n,~,1ted T'ehrunrv 24, 1972.nnc'. the second for t.:<P JJnfl,w'1ich tms apnrove.rl 2.t the save tine,to nrovir 1e interim -Finrincin.r n0ndin0 rcccirt of n mtEF: ;:rant to nssist in the cst:1b1i.shr:ent of 0 s110~ nlnnt in 1~nrhnur (>race. This wa:5 r:gree<l to in !)rinciple bv the nrevinus ;;'ovcrnr·ent and 1/c went on with the Puarantee althourh not 1crn11v o!,lirerl to.

I believe this business is operntinr over in They F\T'P. nnkinr: rw.fcty shoes. I snw ,1 co:'lrnent in the p;iper there nbout n week rwo ,frnm sonenne ,1t the nniversitv who is an Pxr>ert in the field, nnyinp thnt these uere excellent shoP.s e,nrl he. did not unrler~ st:m<l vhv you cou1tl not ret then'. at Tnore stnres, 1 think it was in 4165

July 4, 1072 Tape 1225 ~t. ,John '.i'L So it sounds in :my event like they hnve .a ~ooc-l product anrl thnt it is stnrtinp_ out all right. Then thrre is ~arJti00 Tieddinf fi Unholstery Co, Lin:i.terl,:!:,'.;5.'10(). >rhnt wns a !"tw.rn.ntce r,ivcn i:nrch l/,. 1?72. It wns 11,:,reed to t'y the nrevinus n,1~1.nistrntion and He cnrried on with the f'unrantee hecnuse t!w.v lwr1 stnrted thP n1nnt there. Thr. "'11arrmtee is for the nurnose 0f finnncintt the rnmuf'ricture nf :r:nttresses. ho:{ snrinf'S nnr1 lm, nricet:' w1f.inlsterv furniture in a nlnnt at <::tenhcnvi11e.

The lonP. is to he rp(l11cerl to zir,r,rnxirntt';1v l':~A,rinn 11non recei:it hy the connnnv of its nn;--:_:r. rr:;mt rmd thereafter to r'c ;1Pi( 1 ofr in rontb1y instoJ1nents rvcr 2 r,crint 1 0" five yc.,,rn. _·\s .:or A.s I knou,t½.~ ~ompnnv is ;loin,.,. n1J riYlit to ,1,,te. "r. rh2.irr1.,1n. nt least T h.1vc not hnd anv re-port rror!e Then the next 1onn Ls RKO Imlustrte~ T,i.,.-,·ited,S2S.nnn. Thnt is n '"'u<1r;,ntcc ,~,1t0d ' 1-':rch 15. It is rwi.rantecd t'>nnk lonn nnd this w:i.s ,'H"rr':cd to Pv the previous tifninistr;ition.

It is to finance tl1c Bettin" tin of a new :~.ivision to produce fiber optics in m:o 1.r;dustrics Lfr·Lted in Stcnhenvil1c. T'.w next Jonn,'·'nr_vstown Sld.pvr,r0 f:onstruction is to prnvii!e .-1 revolvinr '"'ll8rnntC'e<l h:mk Jnnn t0 r:-11:ic fim1 1s nvni.1ah}e "'or the 0r:ernt:ion o• n s!,inv.'.!r<l ;,t ~-r2rvstovn, •1aryst01-m Shir,v;;rd r,_,,.,1tn•r:J-1nr r,id.ted ownr; the shtnvo.rd down there. Tt h;-,s the nssets This is nrov:i,lim: a 1,an]- 1 orm for the oper.:,tion o"' the nnerntinr cn:7,,nnv d:ic:1 i.s ow:1e11 and cr.1tro_1_lcr! hv the Tsr;,e1i rrnun.

H;,rystmrn ":S:inninp Llni tc( 1. /'.nyw::iv t!1is j_:; t 11c oper.:itin,,:, cre.rli t for the s"fi:inynrrl doun ::it -...12rvstm:n. Deer J,rike !)us ~0mri:mv Liriitc?,S.'15,000, !-':1rch 21, 1972. T~is was f0r the l"ler,osc 0f r,urchn;;inf'" two new h1ses one t'Hcre is :t _rrunr:1ntced 'b.-mY lnon. T'.1e ne;'<'.t one is \'nf'rrynn !:nternrises Limi terl ,~15. nn0. Thnt 4166

Julv !1, 1°72 he Fore the. election cmd arr.ended by 0rder in rounci1 1Jnvenher 17, 1971. The nurposc. of tl1e 1onn ua$; to fin::mce the p11rchase (lf fishinp- genr am'. ;:rnsocioted cau'ipment tn s,mnlv cn~erir:n1 fisheTT"en ooeratinr: for th,1.t fi IT'. f'luitA a tale lrnnrs on these lc,;ms, t-'r. rhairman.

The loan wn.s r.::H'.e to n. cor,,..,:my spec:L1flv incorporater for the purnose because the :Jrinciri:il,r,_r;Hhnn Brot'.J.ers .n,t Arnolds Cove 1 owed ?. consirlernble ;,mount of S~A tnx to the r,overnt1cnt ::mC the lonn cou1d not he rr,ade t0 t'.,eri h~cDuse,unrler the Pe.venue and Audit /I.ct, the nnount oc the loan t-roulr-l ½0vc to be put ar,ainst the SSA tax o~,1ed. To i:'et n.rountl thnt, thi;,y were nernittcd to incornorate. another cor.r,any end hrive n 1mm r-i:nrnnteer.l for this ott1cr cor:mnny,whi.ch is just a she.11,while thev ~ontinue to owe thP larpc nmount for SSA tax to the rovernwent.

The nrindr:ic1ls .:1re Mr. !(evin tfadmnn anrl Tl,!r. John l!adr:-rm. •Jnw ns far as tl;e S<;:.A tax is concerned 4167

July 4, 1972 Tape No, 1226 NM - l MR. CROSBIE: The arrears have been vigorously pursued and should be well in hand and paid off by the end of the summer. In any event, this is what this loan is for. You could really go on about it but there is not much point. It is certainly improper the way it was done. Finally, Mr. Chairman, the St. John Symphony Orchestra - $10,000. This is an unusual one. Assistance in the form of a direct loan,dated December 22, 1971, for the period of one year. Interest is at the rate of 8 1/2 per cent per annum. The last government agreed to give the St. John's Symphony Orchestra a loan.

I have a note here from someone whp says the loan was given the Orchestra - this $10,000 given the Orchestra in the form of a loan is a cover up. There is obviously no way in which the Orchestra could make a profit such as this in a year. The sum was required to pay the services of a conductor, AN HON. MEMBER: What do you mean cover up. MR. CROSBIE: Cover up for the fact that they will never be able to pay it back. It is really a grant. This is what it is and not a loan, and the wrong way, to do it because it appears obvious that the St.

John's Symphony Orchestra will never be able to pay back the $10,000 loan~ MR. ROWE (WM.): It should have been in the estimates of your department. MR. CROSBIE: It should have been in the honourable gentleman's estimates as a grant, but the honourable gentleman opposite agreed in December to give these people a guaranteed loan instead of giving them a grant, which is only putting off the evil day, because we will probably have to make it a grant before the year is out and pay off the loan. Perhaps it is the proper thing to do,to support the Symphony Orchestra with a grant. Now that is the lot.

That is all the loans and guarantees at the moment, Mr. Chairman. On motion, resolution carried. 4168

July 4, 1972 Tape No. 1226 A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Tobacco Tax Act,n the Act number 81 of 1964. NM - 2 MR~ ~QS~ Mr. Chairmani the legislation is in accordance with the tobacco tax indicated in the Budget Speech. In the Bill you will see section (2) giVes a new rate of tax on cigarettes, cigars and so on, the different kinds of cigars or the different price of cigars,is to become in effect May 31, 1972. I do not think there is much more than can be said about it. The amount of revenue we should get from it was forecast. There is an estimate in here I believe,in the Budget.

The estimate is that this increase will give us approximately $4 million in additional revenue. On motion resolution carried, MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, if we are to do The Local Authority Guarantee Act, let us do it. I think most of us know everything that is in it. This is work done last year. A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Local Authority Guarantee Act 1 11 the Act number 71 of 1957. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, these are various guarantees given to municipalities last year for loans and most of them are water and sewer activities.

Unfortunately the amounts shown in here for a lot of these jobs are not the total amount of the job. The government has had to approve increases in a great many of them. I am just going from memory, we are up now to about $42 million in municipal guarantees that we have to arrange long tem finnncing for in the next several years, two to three years~ This,of course, is why the Minister of Mtmicipal Affairs points out tD the municipalities that any new work that they commence now and that has not been guaranteed before is going to have to wait.

We have a log jam of $42 million when you include these guarantees and the 4169

July 4, 1972 Tape No. 1226 NM - 3 extensions that have had to be given a good few of thew because,when the jobs were started, the Cabinet only approved guarantee and loans for about half the work. Those credits have been used up and now to finish the job you have to go on and guarantee the remainder. I believe nearly all of them are water and sewers sewers. or else they are water or MR. ROBERTS: Hr.

Chairman, as the minister says, indeed most of the amounts in this Bill 1 I would submit, are for work which was done last year and this year the Cabinet, as the minister has informed the committee, will be making further guarantees by Order-in-Council and then those will be taken to the banks and the banks on the strength of that will lend money to the various town councils and then a year from now we will have another amendment to The Loan And Guarantee Act and so it will be. I do not know if there ever will be an end to this problem.

On estimates the other night, the Minister of Municipal Affairs took a guess that we might need a couple of hundred million dollars yet. I have every sympathy for the position in which the Minister of Finance finds himself,that_having to arrange long term financing for a sum which is of the order of $40 millions, at the same time there are countless municipalities throughout the province which need municipal services and the only way they will get them is by this type of financing, by the government going on the back of the note at the bank.

I might add also that in most of these cases, not only do the government go on the back of a note, Mr. Chairman, but the government each year must make to the muniCipality an annual gran~ by means of a subsidy. The purpose of that subsidy is to enable the municipal corporations to service the loans being guaranteed under the authority of this legislation. 4170

July 4, 1972 Tape No. 1226 NI! - 4 I have every sympathy with the minister. I do not know if he is going to be able to find a way out of it, Mr. Chairman, because every person in New..foundland or every municipal authority that has not got these services demands them and expects them as a right. I say without hesitation, the previous administration was not able to satisfy the needs and I have no doubt and I say without any hesitation that the present administration will find that. I do not think that they will be able to satisfy the needs either.

If there are any aspects of public services that are more important than this, I do not know what they are. The other night we had some sport, it is very unsporting to have sport with the Minister of Community and Social Development, we were speaking about wells and he was going to develop criteria to enable him to determine priorities on drilling wells. I am glad it is finished. The minister himself might be finished, Mr. Chairman.

The point I am making is that it is almost impossible to develop any real criteria on these, because any person who has not got water and sewer needs them~in the world in the which we live,and feels that he should have them. So we will have no trouble in voting for the bill. ¥,ost of this is money which my colleague and I spent when we wete the administration of the province. I am willing to bet the government will be back next year looking for more and we will support it then.

Our only problem will be that they will not be able to spend enough because people need the money and need the services this money provides. MR. CROSBIE: There are a few other words I want to &ay on this, Mr. Chairman. We will be back next year asking for further guarantees of loans in this connection because most of these loans here did not provide sufficient monies for the work to be concluded. In other words, 4171

July 4, 1972 Tape No. 1226 NM - 5 it was blindfolding the devil in the dark~ A loan of say $300,000 would be approved and in fact it is going to take $600,000 or $700,000 to finish the job. You cannot leave a water and sewer job half finished. That is not much good to you.

A lot of these loans we will have to extend the guarantees for additional amounts this year, but t.mfortunately last year also because it was allegedlv or presumably the formula that government has for assisting in subsidizin~ the municipalities in their operation of the water and sewer systems was violated because there used to be a maximum amount of $75,000 a year, which any one town of a certain size would have as a subsidy and they had to make up the rest themselves to meet the principal and interest and operating charges. That has been violated in two or three cases here.

There has to be a new formula devised. Frankly, Mr. Chairman, we are going to have to say to the municipalities that they have to make a bigger contribution themselves. In most of these communities they are only paying $5 or $6 a month per household for water and sewers It is going to be necessary for them to up their share to $7 or $8 or $10 or whatever they feel they can afford. In any event, these systems certainly cannot be allowed to stop and there will be a lot of water and sewer activity this year to finish these systems. MR. ROBERT£; Mr. Chairman, I will say I am in agreement with the minister.

Last year the government authorized amounts that would do a year's worth of work. The Orders-in-Council and the Cabinet papers will state clearly that this was one of a two or three year project and the present administration certainly have to carry these through. I am interested· in what he has to say about the formula• Sir 1 the minister has a certain pride of authorship in that formula. I do not know if he wrote it but I believe it was adopted while he was Minister of Municipal Affairs,in an earlier reincarnation. 4172

July 4, 1972 Tape NO. 1226 NM - 6 It is too had he was not here at the committee the other night, Mr. Chairman, it was while the minister was home getting rested, because we took a few minutes to ask the present Minister of Municipal Affairs about this, as Your Honour doubtless remembers, with vivid detail and the Present minister fudged the question admirably,showing complete lack of understanding in my view. I am not surprised to hear the subsidy formula has been violated. I will be interested to hear what the new formula is because there must be some rule of thumb~ The one thing that is for certain, Mr.

Chairman, whatever formula is adopted 1 is that it will cost the government money. Maybe there is a case for increasing the amounts paid by taxpayers and municipalities but even these increases, to increase by two or three dollars a month, Mr. Chairman, will not make much difference when it comes to servicing these loans. The amounts involved are so large. An amount of $300,000 will cost $30,000 a year in principal and interest plus a few dollars that are needed for the operational charges. The only way we are going to get out of this is with government funds.

I wish the minister well, I suspect that he knows full vell what lies ahead of him for this. Indeed, let me conclude by saying that if I remember correctly, the minister's first duty as Minister of Municipal Affairs in those far away days was to open officially the water and sewer system at Happy Valley and Labrador North. I never found out quite how he opened it, As I recall he went down and with great ceremony,using all of his talents to open the water and sewer system. MR. NEARY: He has had water problems ever since. MR. ROBERTS: The honourable gentleman perhaps was flushed with success.

That maybe the reason, Mr. Chairman, why the water system in Happy Valley has not worked satisfactorily from that day until this. Indeed this leaves the minister with a problem that will take several thousand or several hundred thousand dollars~to solve. However, 4173

July 4, 1972 Tape No. 1226 - 1227 NM - 7 let us put the matter through, I do not know where the House Leaders are, Mr. Chairman, but they have Cooked up something and if we are not careful we will give the Order Paper three readings here this afternoon, On motion resolution, carried. On motion that the committee rise, report having passed the resolution and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Ohair. HR BARRY: Mr.

Speaker. the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report having passed a Resolution,to amend the Income Tax 1961, the Act No.l of 1961, Second Session; a Resolution, to amend the Loan and Guarantee Act, 1957, the Act No.70, 1970; A Resolution to Amend the Act, The Guarantee of the Repayment of the Bonds and Debentures Issued By And The Guarsntee of the Repayment of Loans Made to Certain Local Authorities; and a Resolution, to Amend the Tobacco Tax Act, 1964, as amended; and recommend that bills be introduced to give effect to the same, and ask leave to sit again.

On motion report received and adopted, committee ordered sit again presently. On motion Resolutions read a first and second time: On motion a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Income Tax Act, 1961., 11 read a first time, ordered read a second time, presently. On motion a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Income Tax Act, 1961, 11 read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the ¼'hole House, presently by leave. On motion a Bill~ !!An Act Further To Amend The Loan and Guarantee Act, 1957, 11 read a first time, ordered read a second time, presently4 On motion a Bill, 11

An Act Further To Amend The Loan And Guarantee Act, 1957, 11 read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House, presently. 4174

July 4, 1972 Tape No. 1227 NM - 8 On motion a Bill, 11An Act Further To Amend The Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1957, 11 read a first time, ordered read a second time, presently. On motion a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1957, 11 read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole Rouse presently. On motion a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Tobacco Tax Act, 1964, 0 read a first time, ordered read a second time, presently.

On motion a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Tobacco Tax Act, 1964," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House ·presently. MR. HICKMAN: Mr, Speaker, before we go in Committee on the four Bills, may I,with leave of the House, ask that resolutions (5) and (6) 11 The Law Society Act, If and "The Mental Health Act, 11 be read a first time. On motion of the honourable Minister of Justice, a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Law Society Act}" read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave.

On motion of the honourable Minister of Justice, a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Mental Health Act, 1971, 11 read a first time, ordered read a second time, presently. On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole on sundry Bills, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE: A Bill, nAn Act Further To Amend The Income Tax Act, 1961." Motion that the committee report having passed the Bill without amendment, carried. A Bill, 11

An Act Further To Amend The Loan And Guarantee Act, 1957. 11 Motion that the committee report having passed the Bill without amendment, carried. 4175

July 4, 1972 Tape No. 1227 NM - 9 A Bill, 11

An Act Further To Amend The Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1957. 11 Motion that the committee report havin~ passed the Bill without amendment, carried. MR. HICKMAN: I would like to draw to the attention, I do not think this requires a motion, subject to the attention of the committee, that in the schedule, after, "the Town Council of Pasadena," the words, "of a Town of, 11 •.rere ommitted and I think in one other place, the Town Council of Dunville and Botwood, the words 11 the Town of, 11 have been ommitted. I think the committee simply needs to note that, it does not rieed an amendment.

A Bill, 11An Act Further To Amend The Tobacco Tax Amendment Act, 1964. 11 Motion that the committee report having passed the Bill without amendment, carried~ 4176

July 4, 1972 Tape no. 1228 Page 1 - M-1 On motion that the committee rise and report having passed bill no. 52, 61, 63,66 without amendment, and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR, BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the committee of the whole have considered the matters to them referred and directed w~ to report having passed bill no. 52,6k 63, 66 without amendment, and ask leave to sit again. On motion report received and adopted. On motion committee ordered to sit again presently. On motion bills ordered read a third time presently.

On motion, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Income Tax Act, 1961, 11 read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a billt "An Act Further To Amend The Loan And Guarantee Act, 1957," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1957," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Tobacco Tax Act, 1964, 11 read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper.

Motion, second reading of a biil, 11

An Act Further To Amend The Insurance Premiums Act, 1968. u MR, CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of the bill. The House might be interested in knowing that the Insurance Premiums Tax 1970-1971 brought in $1,398,000 and in 1971-1972 it brought in $1,000,637, These amendments are to apply the tax to insurance purchased by the government or by drown corporations of the government; to apply the tax to insurance purchased by the municipal or local government bodies which are now exempt; 4177

July 4, 1972 Mr. Crosbie; Tape no. 1228 Page 2 to apply the tax to marine insurance for pleasure or sport craft of twenty gross tons or less. Commercial fishing craft continue to be exempt. It does not matter what the tonnage is. The bill makes provision for penalties to be imposed by the deputy minister instead of the minister arid to transfer certain routine administrative matters to the deputy minister from the minister. That is the purpose of ~he Bill. MR. ROWE (W.N.): Mr. Speaker, twenty gross tons or less, pardon my ignorance but how big a boat or craft would that be? The l'Oseola 1'. How many tons is that?

MR. CROSBIE: That is about one hundred tons. MR. ROWE (W .N.): That is right. That is what I figured. MR. CROSBIE: It is about the size of the "Al tuna: _MR. ROWE (W.N.): The ''Altuna"? It could be the former occupant of it. Twenty tons or less 1 I mean what is the reason for taking twenty tons, Hr. Speaker.,_and applying that as the limit,so to speak 1 on sport or pleasure water craft? Would this have the affect of certain - I mean is it arbitrary or is it fair or equitable? I do not understand it 1Mr. Speaker)I must admit quite frankly. MR. CROSBIE: It is very arbitrary. MR. ROWE (W.N.): Very arbitrary? MR.

CRCSBIE: Right! MR. ROWE (W.N.) : The honourable minister must be contemplating buying a boat of twenty-one tons. MR. CROSBIE: I cannot afford that. MR. ROWE (W.N.): You cannot afford it? You see the tax is being applied, Mr. Speaker,in respect of sport or pleasure water craft of tonnage of twenty gross tons or less. A little boat owned by some poor fellow like myself or the hon~ mewher for Bell Island has to pay a tax on any insurance premiums

whereas when the hon. Minister of Finance buys his twenty-five ton yacht,he does not have to pay tax on his insurance premiums Is that the situation? 4178

July 4, 1972 MR. ROWE (W.N.): Tape no~ 1228 Page 3 If that is the situation then I submitt Sir, it is an inequitable bill- unless the honourable minister can explain it a little better than he did in introducing the bill~ Also 1 Sir,Wlile I am on my feet here I would also like some comment from the minister on the reason why there can be a remission of certain interest and penalties levelled or imposed under the act. Why should that be permitted? Again I do not understand the honourable minister's reasoning there.

Maybe when he gets up to clue up the debate on the bill, scanty as the debate might be, he can give some indication of his thinking. The bill will also provide for a remission of certain interest and penalties levelled or imposed under the act. I would imagine that the minister ( I read the bill some months ago) has the power under the bill to remit interest or penalties. Now that strikes me as being a ministerial prerogative which could be misused. I am not saying that the hon. Minister of Finance would because he is a very fair-minded administrator.

I am sure he would not think of remitting any interests or penalties in respect of anybody in the province. Would it be better if it were the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council who did such remission? At least you would have collective minds looking at it. If a minister were a little bit on the generous or negligent side even, even if he did not read something submitted to him by his deputy minister, at least it would go to the cabinet* The cabinet can make sure that there is no prejudicial treatment or favourable treatment being shown.

I would like to hear the honourable minister's comments on these two matters: Why the twenty ton maximum has been reached and why the minister has the power to remit interests or penalties under the act. I think it should be the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council. Nil. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, as far as the twenty ton bit is concerned, this is legislation that was left to me by the honourable gentleman opposite. I raise the same question. Now I do not know why the twenty tons have been 4179

July 4, 1972 Tape no. 1228 Page 4 MR, CROSBIE. taken as a figure but most sport or pleasure boats are under twenty tons. Anyone who has an older vessel must also claim that they use it for business purposes. They visit along the coast to see their agents and this that and the other. So that is probably why the twenty tons - I will assure the honourable gentleman that I will have a look at it and if there is any good reason why it should not be restricted at all, then we will bring in another amendment next year. But I did bring that up with the officials and they had some reason why the limit was twenty tons.

Now the remission of interest and penalties - this is not the only act in which this is permitted. There is an appeal from the minister that,if he does not remit it or does not remit a penalty, there can be appeals. It should be noted also, of course, that it has to be reported to the auditor general,under subsection (2) of the relevant clause here. The Revenue and Audit Act requires any remission of interest or penalties to be reported. It is not a new precedent. It is the same thing as in the other legislation, the S.S.A. Tax and the rest of it and there is a right of appeal.

I do not think that the time of the cabinet should be taken up with a lot of these things. Since the auditor general - it has to be reported to him if there is any hanky panky,and he should be able to see it. MR, ROWE (W.N.): Mr, Speaker, this is not resuming the debate, Sir, I am asking the minister a question.

If remission is allowed, i.e., on ministerial direction, is another party permitted to appeal that decision or is it just the person in respect of the person himself who will either have the interest or penalty remitted or not remitted as the case might be7 I mean could I walk in and take an appeal from a ministerial decision to remit a penalty or interest in respect of some other person? minister know the answer to that? Does the honourable MR. CROSBIE: No only the person aggrieved is the person who has the right to appeal. The political consequences are the responsibility of the minister 4180

July 4, 1972 Tape no. 1228 Page 5 On motion a bill, 0

An Act Further To Amend The Insurance Premiums Tax Act, 1968, 11 read a second time, ordered referred to a committee of the whole House presently.~ Motion, second reading of a bill, 11An Act Further To Amend The Revenue And Audit AcL 11 HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, the purpose of these amendments to the Revenue and Audit Act are to deal with it ff anything should happen in the loss or destruction of any bond or debenture~ At present it is an inadequate provision.

It will permit regulations to be made concerning the issue of security and so on and what should be done if they are damaged or defaced and secondly, to assess the salaries of the comptroller and the auditor general. These have been increased to $27,210. As honourable members know, only the House can legally increase or decrease the salary of the comptroller and the auditor general_.

The decision was made I believe some time ago that these were the relevant increases in line with what was given to the Civil Service generally and, therefore, this bill carries that out~ It will come into effect from April 1, 1971,with these salary changes. On motion a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Revenue and Audit Act,n read a second time, ordered referred to a committee of the whole House presently. Motion second reading of a bill, 11

An Act To Provide For The Exemption Of Atlas Construction Company,Limited From Taxes Imposed By The Social Security Assessment Act. 1963. 11 MR. CROSBIE: I move the second reading of this bill, Mr. Speaker. What happened here is that the House passed

an act giving S.S.A. Tax exemption in connection with the construction of the ERCO Plant at Long Harbour. Atlas Construction Company.Limited constructed the wharf facilities there,for the federal government,and technicallyiby an

interpretation of the agreement, they 4181

July 4, 1972 Mr. Crosbie. Tape no. 1228 Page 6 had to pay the S. S. A. Tax to the government, Atlas did on the wharf, although it was not intended that the S.S.A. Tax should be collected on the wharf facilities at Long Harbour. To make the position clear they requested that we get an exemption that would apply specifically to Atlas constructing the wharf. That seemed to be quite fair and just Mr. Speaker, as that is what was agreed to at the time. I think it was agreed to actually by the last administration. That is the purpose of the bill. MR. ROWE (W.N.): How much would that involve? MR. CROSBIE: I do not know.

It would only b~ a few thousand. On motion, a bill, 11An Act To Provide For The Exemption Of Atlas Construction Company Limited From Tax Imposed By The Social Security Assessment Act, 1963, 11 ::i;ead a second time, ordered referred to a committee of the whole House presently. 4182

Ju1v I;. 1072 tfnticn, second read'f.ng of ;i_ bill, "An Ac.t Ft1rther To Amend The f'onstahnlnry (P0ns:ions) Act, 197". is an aMendment to nermit emnlovees nF the no1::l.cp were ennlovees nt the timf' tht' princirrn.l ,nt c2.re into force, to rena1n ·in cn:1loyn0nt until thev have coPnleted twentv• five vt,r.irs of nensionahle service,notwithstam 1i.np their a~es.

JY - 1 t,_s the f".~f'lh~rs know~ snne nenher~ of the no lice force who are de!)ending t·n t'1rir '"'nsit"Jor, hrrvp tr, ret:i.TE'! nt 2 ccrt.1:in n;:;c_/i,,J,ich is nuite carlv h thr> nrcsent c,tate of' societv.nt the ::tl!e of fiftv··five for exaMnle 0r nt the fJf'f' of fifty, With resnect to sor.ie of these ren who uere i.n the "'orcc nt the ti~e the prjnc:ipnl net was pas.Se{:':~ thev wnul:i not h;ive c-rF•10Jeter1 tuenty-five veers of service when they reacher] this retirenPnt nve~uhirh Goes not Pive thc:n a chnncc to ret a decent -r,ension. <::r this uonl~ ncrmit s11ch crry)ovccs to stav in for tuentv- Fivt> vcnr,;; n0rwithstnnr1in<:> t'.°1Pir npe. ;iren,fr,en t .

That i~ ti1e r11rr,osc of the VT: •. P/'u?(r; __ "J_.) • /\gnin. Sir. rcarlinr::- the ex:r1nnntorv note nnd iust r0n.11i.n" the hil] itse1.i\ t7e nositlfm t½ar I ;,n :ihout to rive rif'ht not P'-'"" 11c nossihlc unrler the r:.ct. 11t1t if' a nersonwere f'Jfty,for e:::;:innlc, in l Of, 7 or if n pers,m ·..rere tnl:en on at the m.-c o-" forty-five for sor.e rp;;.snn or other, if' 1967 A,'· 1 Tr.;entv -e1rllt is the n,:,:.:> linit. ) : 'T've.ntv-ei;:ht is t'.:1c ar,e 1 iri:i.t whereby he could he ern1nverl,so th;;t situn.tton crm never arise. "P. It 1.s urn.inst the lJunan "R.irhts f:ork•,hy the way. "'L (" T see.

Fhv i.s that? I menn it is prc-hahly nnt completely on 1111 fours with tl10 Dtinc.inle of this !'ill but p}w i.B the twenty-ei9:ht ye::u ;:'Je Ur.it ir-riosc.d in rcs;1('ct of recruitraent7 flecausc thev hnve ?. short term - Ny un<lerstnndinr; nnd this anplic.s 4183

the penitentinry anrl T J~nnw hr instnnce. it apnlics to otl-Jer r;:m,:uli:rn "oliC'e l'."0re:Ps sncl--i ,,s the vc;n but f'ecnuse of the conrlitinns of work which are involval a,:: onnosec: s.?y to tl"'.c pt:)1,ic se!"vice where you crir1e to rmrl· at nine ::inrl f'0 home ,1t >'ive, t11ev work shifts. thcv {,•orl· rm th.-, street and the.re :is 11 r:rc.at dr,al of vhv.sical wor!: :involver: nnd c:,nerience · has intltc;1;terl thnt unless thev ~re nror:i0te2 to otficPrs ro :in r::vi this is Hhy t'w rmdrm.1'1 2re n!: tttPnty-rdr:ht is or there. 'ff' 21 11r} ice-i:in iP 0ntnrio c0;,,es b;icl: nt thirty ;>:vi wanted to join the nolir:c forc!'2 here? 1 '.e w:Ul not ½e nh1(' tn ic.in.

C:n t11e olJc.st tlrnt ;, nPrson cnn he ,if hf' is nnt ;m offi f'Pr in the no} ice force.,.is Fj ftv- three vpnrs of' tl!'P, Is thvt scnsihl, 0r not? 'lF:·, :IIC:~','_t,?: ''ma of them. For Ontario, T thjnt· vo11 ni11 fint 1 th;it nnrler t"1e rfrercn 1 s J'nion ,\rt of the nnt:1rio r.trc De•"Htrtr-cnt thcv lool· fer a n;11c7 e:,rlier retircrent. Po they ret >'oor' ner.sions' nt fj ft·,-·three v0c1rs of arc? Yes.

On 1;1otion hill rend n seconr1 timt>, or<lerc, 1 referrcrl t0 n cont1itter of the who!£> 1".onse nre.s('nt1v. bv lenve: !--'otion, second re;;.i!inr: of a hill, 'An .1\ct Further To Arv:rn~ The f..evem1e nm1 /\n<lit Act: ''t. CROSP.TF· 1''11,s nnendt'lPnt to the RPvenue and Audit Act, ~'!r. C:ne.flker. is to rlc;tl with the leave nnr! pension riohts of the comptroller and the mfrlttnr rc11eral. i,Jnw I hc.'!icve the noasnn Fhv t!1is is necPssnrv :i.s thnt the comptroller,before the prev:io11s comptroller, t"r. Crnor.i, hnd ;,_ snerinl nrranr,enent with res11ect tn his nensinn and as a result of 4184 1

T,1ne 1229 th;1t there u.:1s an anendment :r:indc to the 1evennc and Audit Act that h;v:! tn ..-!o i:i th th(' nension ri~hts o: his office. This mnem!r:ient is to r:nl:e it d enr tfwt the comp.trollerholds office durinr. good hch2vin11r,, re0ovahle hy the r1ouse o~ Asserr:hly 1 nn?. tlrnt he has the snr:10. nension ri'!hts as other civil servants nnd the some ri£bti:; with respect to le::ivc nnr1 so on under the Civil ferv:i.ce Act anr:1 the nurUc Service ;le.nsions Act.

The snme ;;Mcni4nent to provide the JN - 3 ScZT"e ;,nttc.rs with rcsnect tn tlie m1ditor ~eneral, th:it he is nensi0,T1nh]e as 2 civi1 servant is rmd hn.s the sm:ie rir-hts with rAsnect tr, lcnve anr1 sn on ns n ci.vil servant. nn Doti.or hi11 rend n second ti"'P., ort{ererl re:'erred to e. Conmittee of the qhoJc !!rmsc prescntl:,. hy lc;1ve· notion, ser,ond rear!inl"' of;; h:t11. i\n Act To Pevisc AnC Conscli,~c1:te 7 ho Snd.21 Sccnrl ty Assessment Act. rn.nsnIE • :'fr.

Snenl'.er, T would move second rc11di nri: on this hill~ The, hill is: ;i revision nnC a consolldat:ton of the Soci.1l Security l\Rsessricnt _\ct. 19h) nnd the. mte.nrlnents thi'lt h,..,ve been !"larle he tween J 1163 and 1 °71.

In nddition to revis,inp the 1 anPmu•e nn<1, the form or content of the hi11, the vnrimm bills thnt trnre enacterl hy the House, they hnvc nr1rlerl to the act certnin cxer,nti0ns tl1.1t were rinde hv rr.rrulations. ~Jov other th:m thrtt, for e:x:mnnle,in the exenntion from <:::SA trn: where tnnr,ible pcrsonnJ nropertv nn •vhirh t:ix hns el rendy been nnir 1 is c0nveyed FJy n busincssl"'lan to rt corrpanv which he h:v1 incorporated to c,::rrv on his business: 'l'fwt used to he ta:rnhle vn<l the r!ecision was r1 01!e tlwt ::!.t i!ic 1 not need to he tn:rnblc, uith certain safe.;u<1rds.

Sn 1 do not think there is very r,-uch I cnn sn.y. It is the Jaw th:it hn.,:; n1renzlv been in effoct,with very sJirht chnnrcs. :'his is the most inrortnnt source of revenue the provinci.nl ;rnvernment has in itself and this is }ust t0 rr:nke the 1 aw clearer and to consoliCnte the act into one nJ;:ice so thnt it is easier for peonlc to refer to it. 4185

Julv 4, 1972 Tnpe 1229 As the honourahle nin:ister snicl, ~ir. Spe;:ih2r, the SSA tax is the f'rcat:est source of revenue that this province has at rrescnt. "!ow thnt nay or may n0t be rirht. "'y m.m ncrnnnnl foelin;< is thnt it is wronr:. it is a retro)'.".rade type of tax. rhe less well--off person pavs a far r,rertter nropnrtion of his or her income. :is a result of the C:SA tax thnn fioes the well· off nerson. :'ut we nrc not to ;:.et into t½::t r.:itter nt the r:ior1ent.

This is BS the ninistcr he1s said a revision of c.:dstinr lee;islnti0n ;:md t'hc noints uhich - not n revision j11st n rcvi5ion of the lrmrun7.e nnci the form nf e:dstin:- lef'islnti0n.

So there is no new '.':'latter in it unon whic11 uc, coul.4 hnve n renf'r:11 ,1 ehat.e ns to the rirrhtness or wrom•ness of rm SSA tn.x or thnt tyne of ,1 tax. !·1nvI--ie neyt VC'n:r PC cnn p-et into thnt~ns rv i1onn11r2hJe collcnfuc Si'!VS. 11 ut on the cntmJe nF neu T"lntt2rr, thnt hrve l•cen -ientinntc:d h~re: the exenntior of trtx, for C';:3:"'1p1 e, of PPrsonPl nrop0rtv heina: convevc{t frm11 n per:<;rin cnrrvinp on 1J11s-iness ff'l 11 comnnny, :i.n incornornterl com,;anv co.rrvin_r on tmsin2ss.

C:rn the honour;it'le rinister rive us rm i,!eR ns to how ruc!"t rcvcnnt: 1viJ 1 he lo,;t to the 11:rovincP cs r! r0rwJ t o.f. tlwt tyne of :m excrr:ntinn? 1!~s that been cal cu] ated out? Is it Sl!hstnnt1-?1 or rrinor nr vh.1.t? That is Bll T h:we to sny on it, tm_. CROSBIE· 1'r. Sne:,1ker, I ;.1milrl snv t¾nt the 2P101mt of revpnuc to he Jnst would be verv little.. certainly not over Slf\,Oflf'l or ~1'.? . .(F)f1 n vertr he.cause the rer:u1.atinns were ,mender'. to nrovidc thi.s SOPlC tir-:c nrri anc1 the onlv chanr;c now i.s that has f'een r,1:t into the O('t.

Sr therfc sho11lfi not be :my [?rent revenue loss vni! there arc sever.11 safe,:;:m1rcls on it to eru:mrc> thnt this is n h0na fide transfer rmcl thnt the shnre>s of the. cotm'!anv are not nn1d aftenu1rr!s. Sn t½cre will not be nny rre.nt re.•1enue loss from it, This e:xcnrytion. T believe, hns been in effect for several years. 4186

Jq}y /4' 197? On rot inn, bill read t1 secom 1 time. ordered referred tn a ror::nittee of the 1!hole House nrcsently 1 bv .leave: !ln motion that the llmJ.Se i::::o into Cormittce of t:w t-!holc on snrn!rv 'rd Us, '-fr. Spe.al:er left the C:hnir. U'JWLT::: A hiJ 1.

An Act Further Tn Ar.-iend The Tnr::urnnce Prerrtiurs Tax !;c L ] 0F8. •HC!''H"· CLmse (2), Er. Ghairn:m, 2(c) (vii) T move that the c1m1.c;e he nrncnclcd h:v addin;: nfter ·1qn2 the worc1s, ·or any successor .\ct to thnt Act. '·1otion tl,at: the ('Ql'."'J'tittce rennrt hflvinr n:lsserl the h:Ul w:ith r,r1ne ;,_r,endments. carried. A bi U, fn /-•ct further To Anend The Revenue nnri Audit Act. t.'r,tion that the Connittee report hnvin,r pas~etl the hi11 u1.thout -\ bi11.

An Act To ?r0vide !'or the Ex:e!"ption of Atlas ronstruc:tirin t::on.,,,nny Li;'jitcd fron Taxes i.;mosed hy the Social Security l\.!"',scssr::ent '\ct, 1963. '!otion thnt the Committee reuort hnvinf nassetl the hill without 4187

July 4, 1972, Tape 1230, Page l -- apb A Bill, 11

An Act Further To Amend The Constabulary (Pensions) Act, 1970. '' (No. 49). Motion, that the committee report having passed the Bill without amendment, cnrried. A Bill. ''An Act Further To Amend The Revenue And Audit Act.' (No. 70), Motion, that the committee report having passed the Bill without amendment, carried. A Bill, "An Act To Revise And Consolidate The Social Security Assessment Act.' (No. 71). Motion, that

section 10-l-D(3) he amended by changinp: the word 'establishmentn in the third line of this paragraph, to 'establishments J 1 MR. W_.N. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I wonder.maybe if the !-fin:ister of Justice could mention now and we could get it over with - we have no objection to passing the remainder of the clauses in toto, provided of course no precedent is estahlished. There are sixty clauses here and I have no objection at all if we _1ust do them all without reading them out. AN HON. MEl-'JlER • ---------~ (Innudihle) On motion, clause (10) as amended carried. MR. HICKMAN: Clause (14), Mr. Chairman, I move that 14L-(2) be deleted and replaced with the followin)?: !'

(2) The title to the tangible personal property of the existing business, trade or occupation referred to in paragraph (

i) is sold or transferred to the corporation by the natural person or persons within one year after the date of incorporation or the date of comin? into force of this Act which ever is the later. 11 On motion, amendment carried. On motion, clause (14) as amended, carried. 4188

July 4, 1972, Tape 1230, Page 2 -- apb }-lotion, that the committee report having passed the Bill with some runendrnent, carried. On motion, that the committee rise, report having passed certain Bills and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. !"r. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole considered the mntters to them referred and have directed me to report that they have passed Bill, No. (16) and (71) with some amendments, and Bills (49), (51), (50) and (70) without amendment. On motion report received and adopted. On motion, Bills ordered read a third time now by leave.

On motion, a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Constabulary (Pensions) Act, 1970,' read a third time, ordered nassecl and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a Bill, n

An Act To Provide For The Exemption Of Atlas Construction Co. Limited From Taxes Imposed By The Social Security Assessment Act, 1963, ,. read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper, On motion, a Bill, i,An Act Further To Amend The Revenue And Audit Act.' read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a Bill, '·An Act Further To Amend The Revenu~ And Audit Act. 1 read a third time, ordered passed and its title he As on the Order Paper. 'f,fr.

Speaker, the ComI'littee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and report having passed Bills no. (16) and (71) with some amendments. On motion report received and adopted. On motion amendments read a first and second time. On motion Bills ordered read a third time now. On motion, a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Insurance Premiums Tnx Act, 1968,F read a third timet ordered passed and its 4189

July 4, 1972, Tape 1230, Page 3 -- apb title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a Bill, l'An Act To Revise And Consolidate The Social Security Assessment Act,' read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper Motion, second readinp: of a Bill, 1'An Act Further To Amend The Law Society Act.' }fr. Speaker, this is a very simple amendment and the explanatory notes set forth very clearly what is intended. There was a co:rmnittee of younr, lawyers, a subsection of the Canadian Bar Association,who did a review of the Law Society Act as it applies to our articled clerks.

It was found that the Province of Newfoundland, I believe,, is now the only province that does not permit articled clerks to appear .i.n the Mngistrate 1 s Court and before certain administrative tribunals after they have obtained a degree in law. but still have six months or more of articling left before being called to the Bar. With the implewentation and exp;rnsion of legal aid, not only will it provide younr law graduates with an opportunity of getting the feel of the courtroom but at the same time I believe that a great deal of excellent service will be rendered by these young men.

It was decided that it should be done by regulation rather than have it specified in legislation because after the experiment has been ongoing for a year or two, it could very well occur that the same courtesy and right might be extended to artialed clerks to appear at least on motions in the District Courts and maybe in the Supreme Court. I move second reading of the Bill. MR. W.N.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I am in complete agreement with the principle of this Bill. Of course, we do not know really what the substance of it is going to be until the regulations are passed.

We do not know what the effect is goinp.: to be until a year or so after the regulations have been promulgated. I would suggest though, Sir, that there is no reason at all why articled clerks, especially those 4190

July 4, 1972, Tape 1230, Page 4 -- apb who have received their law degree and are now going into the final six months of their articles,{! believe you can only do three months of articles before) should not be able to appear on their own in Hagistrate 1 s Court but to accompany their senior or a practitioner in County Courts, District C~urts and Supreme Court, even in the Court of Appeal,for that matter, and ?e permitted to argue in those superior courts provided,of course, that they are accompanied by somebody who has some experience in the field so that a client's interests are not jeopardized.

It has always been beyond me how anyone could be considered to have done r-ood articles,to serve their apprenticeship in the law, if they have never been able to get their feet wet in some of the courts in the province.. I a.'11 in complete agreement with that. I think that with this bill. I hopl! that the honourable minister takes cognizance of the few su~gestions I have made. I think articled clerks should be given as much leeway as possible 4191

July 4, 1972, Tape 1231, Page 1 -- apb to gain as much experience as possible in the courts of the province, provided that certain necessary safeguards are taken to protect the interests of the clients of lawyers. I do not think there is any further need to say anything else on this particular bill. On motion, Bill read a second time ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House, on tomorrow. Motion, second reading of a Bill, i>An Act Further To Amend The

Summary Jurisdiction Act.,, (No. 65). MR. HIC!'.l'AN, ~r. Speaker, this is simply to correct an error~ a typo)!raphical error :i.n the amendment that went through earlier in this session. ~ere judgement creditor had been used; judgement debtor instead of judgement creditor, l move second reading. On motion~ Bill read a second time ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow~ Motion, second reading of a Bill, ''An Act Further To Amend The Prisons Act, 1969.l' (No. 57). }lll. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the explanatory notes set forth very clearly the reason for moving this amendment.

Arrangements have been made to have inmates of the penitentiary avail of certain recreation facilities in and around St. John's. For instance, groups of ten or fifteen quite often visit certain areas to play basketball and v