LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Thursday, March 9, 1972 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 pm.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair.] HEAD: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, it is a very special privilege for me today to introduce to you and through you to all members of the Assembly my three honorary Deputy Ministers of Education for today.

As a part of the provincial activities planned for Education Week, students in Grades IV, V, and VI all over Alberta were invited to write an essay on the subject "What is a School?" The three winners have been selected and they are present now with their teachers in the speaker's gallery. The Southern Alberta winner is Barbara Jane McKinley of Herald School in Medicine Hat and her teacher is Mr. Gary Delbert. The Central Alberta winner, Mr. Speaker, is Calvin Sargeant of the Rimbey Elementary School in Rimbey, and his teacher is Mr. John Miller.

The Northern Alberta winner is Kim Hutchinson of Holyrood School in Edmonton and his teacher is Mr. Ivan Holmgren. I would say to the Assembly that they have been giving me very good advice all today, all of which I have accepted, with one exception, and that is they made the suggestion that they should have a one week school holiday, and I'm taking that under close consideration. I'd like to congratulate them on behalf of the Assembly and ask that they stand now and be recognized. MR. JAMISON: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to introduce to you and through you to all 75 members of the Provincial Legislature 90 students. They are the Grade IX students of Sir Alexander MacKenzie Junior High School in St. Albert. I would also like to say that the name of their school is indicative of how our schools in St. Albert are named, for explorers and early pioners who made an imprint on our history. There are times for students to look back, and times for them to look ahead.

I hope today that these students are looking ahead to the future of their province and the day that some of them may be sitting members of this Legislature. I congratulate their teachers Alf Gould, Dave MacNielly, and Donallene Angus for including this visit in the education program of these young people. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 207

6-2 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972 Will S.A.M. students stand and be recognized by members of the Alberta Legislature. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would also like to make an introduction to the House, and when I see the number of students from St. Albert who have just stood, and I look at the gallery, I wonder if my students got in. It seemed the entire

section stood up. Although I don't do this for the first time, as my friend from St. Albert did — this is two days in a row for an introduction of students from the constitutency of Edmonton Parkallen — I do have him outnumbered. I have 95 students from Avalon Junior High School from several Grade VII classes accompanied today by their teachers Mr. Lopatka and Mrs. Nichols, and in a similar spirit I would like to compliment them on the interest that they are encouraging in these students in our democratic process. I congratulate the children too, of course, for a similar reason.

And so, if they are present in the gallery, I ask them to stand. HEAD: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Dr. Craig Case MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this question to the hon. Attorney General. Can the Attorney General tell the House whether his department has received a communication from the federal Justice Minister requesting an investigation into the Dr. John David Craig case? MR. LEITCH: I know of no such request, Mr. Speaker. MR. NOTLEY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Does the Attorney General intend to conduct a provincial inquiry into this affair? MR. LEITCH: Mr.

Speaker, as I'm sure everyone in the Assembly knows, that matter is now before the courts, and in my view, because of the rule that matters before the courts shouldn't be discussed in public, we shouldn't be involved in this kind of question. MR. NOTLEY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Again, to the hon. Attorney General. Does the government plan any action to insure that similar breaches of the doctor's confidential files will not occur in the future? MR. LEITCH: That is something, Mr. Speaker, that we have under consideration. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question in the general area I raised in my initial question, this time to the Minister of Health. Can the hon. Minister of Health tell the House who pays for the treatment of transient addicts who are not covered by Medicare and who have no funds of their own? Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 208

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-3 MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I will presume that the looking after of transient addicts is in the field of a number of private agencies, as well as the Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Commission, and the single men's hostels in Calgary and Edmonton which are provincially run. If there are other areas of treatment I'm not aware of them. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question directed to the Attorney General. Was it under his authority that the doctor's records were seized in this case? MR. LEITCH: Mr.

Speaker, I have issued a press release on this, and I'd be perfectly happy to read that press release in the House, if the hon. member so wishes, but beyond doing that, as I indicated in the earlier question, I do not think there should be any public comment on the cases that are now before the court. DR. BUCK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is this not violating the confidentiality of records? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I think my earlier answer really deals with this.

This is a matter that's now before the courts, and in my view anything I may say in favour of the action or in opposition to the action is something that may have a prejudicial effect on the trial. And I feel very strongly that particularly government officers should scrupulously follow the rule that there should be no public comment on cases that are before the courts, because such comment tends to prejudice the fair trial of the action. MR. NOTLEY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the hon. Minister of Health.

In view of the rather hazy situation concerning the payment for doctors providing services to transient people, can the minister tell us whether any consideration has been given through Medicare to reimburse doctors, such as Dr. Craig, who have been unable to collect, to date, for treatment provided? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of the personal circumstances of Dr. Craig's dealings with the Alberta Health Care Insurance commission. It may be that my colleague the hon.

Minister Without Portfolio in charge of the Health Care Insurance Commission, after some consideration of the matter, and without either breaching the principles enunciated by the Attorney General, or the normal principles of confidenciality that relate and should relate to Government documents, could offer my learned friend some more information in that regard, and it will be taken into consideration with that in view. Methadone Clinics MR. GHITTER: A supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Health and Social Development.

Has your department looked into matters with respect to whether or not methadone treatment clinics are really the answer to treatment for narcotic addiction in this province? Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 209

6-4 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972 MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, the question of methadone treatment clinics, both from the point of view of methadone maintenance and methadone withdrawal types of treatment, has been reviewed both by the department and the Alberta Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Commission, and in addition, is the subject of much interest on a national scale at the present time. In regard to the views of other jurisdictions, our government is keeping in touch in order to be up to date. MR. NOTLEY: Supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Health and Social Development.

Have any addicts to date been refused treatment by the provincial methadone maintenance clinic, and if so, for what reasons were they turned away? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any person approaching the Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Commission for treatment being refused treatment. If such be the case, I could perhaps ascertain that upon inquiry of the commission, which I would be pleased to do, and at that time give the reason. In regard to other agencies, including the private ones that are active in this field, I couldn't answer for them. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Calgary Bow.

Flood Studies MR. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the hon. Minister of the Environment. Sir, is the province willing to entertain a second Bow flood study, another one, which would take into consideration upstream control rather than control in the residential communities? MR. YURKO: Well, Mr. Speaker, the nature of that question is such that it can't be answered during a question period. However, if the hon. member writes to me on this matter, I will take it under advisement and consider it with respect to the many aspects that must be considered before a decision can be made. MR. WILSON: Mr.

Speaker, really, I was after a yes or no answer. Perhaps if I could ask another supplementary question, the hon. minister might like to answer that one as well as the second question. Sir, is the hon. minister aware that the Montreal Engineering report did not take into consideration the vegetation change in the catchment area since the two major floods of 1879 and 1897, when assessing the current flood dangers on the Bow River in Calgary? MR. YURKO: Well, Mr.

Speaker, if the hon. member wants an answer to a question of that detail, then I would suggest that he put it on the Order Paper and I will gladly supply him with an answer. But, I do want to suggest that my department is very, very active in this area and is conducting a major number of studies. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 210

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-5 MR. WILSON: Supplementary then, Mr. Speaker. I will do as the hon. minister requested. The supplementary question is, in light of the seriousness of this matter, would the hon. minister be willing to meet with a delegation from the Bowness community and allow them to explain and present their statistical arguments? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, my doors are always open to delegations. I have met many delegations during the last six months, and it is not my intention at any time to exclude any delegation from coming to converse with me. MR. FARRAN: Mr.

Speaker, supplementary question to the hon. minister. Why is it necessary to have these further exhaustive investigations into the flooding conditions in Bowness in the Calgary area when a Royal Commission on Floods was conducted for more than two years in the early 1950's, and presumably their exhaustive findings were available to the previous government? MR.

YURKO: In all honesty I would just like to suggest to the hon. member that conditions do change, and because of the lack of adequate regulations, building has been done on hills along river banks in such a way that there is now danger in several areas of the hill sliding into the river and blocking off the entire river flow. This, in fact, is the situation that the hon. member across the way is talking about.

Uncontrolled development had been permitted to take place in a certain area and this development has, in fact, generated pressures upon this particular area so that there is some danger and it isn't necessarily as acute as the hon. member wishes to have this House believe. But there is some danger that, in fact, this hill can slide into the river and block the entire channel and as a result produce artificial flooding conditions backstream of this point. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lethbridge West. Lethbridge Community College MR. GRUENWALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Advanced Education. Could you tell me, sir, have you made an appointment yet to fill the vacancy on the Board of Governors of the Lethbridge Community College? There has been a vacancy for between three and four months now. Do you intend to do this in the near future and about when? MR. FOSTER: We intend to do that, Mr. Speaker, but I cannot say precisely when that will be. But I comment further, Mr. Speaker, if my hon. colleague opposite has any recommendations or suggestions he wishes to makes, I would be very happy to hear from him. MR.

GRUENWALD: I was under the impression that recommendations had been submitted to you. However, if this is not so, I will gladly look after this. I believe some recommendations have gone forward, but if Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 211

6-6 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972 they haven't been received I would be glad to know about it and would correct the matter. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. Albert. Sturgeon River Basin Reclamation MR. JAMISON: Mr. Speaker, may I address this question to the hon. Minister of the Environment? The Chamber of Commerce in St. Albert and district were told two years ago by the Water Resources Branch that 67 studies an thereabouts had been done on the reclamation of the Sturgeon Valley Basin, that the project was considered a pilot project and that such work would get under way in 1972.

Is this still considered a pilot project for river basin development in Alberta and will work commence on the project this year? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, the question has budgetary implications and as a result I would suggest that the answers may become apparent during treatment of the budget; however, I would also like to suggest that the study of the Sturgeon River Basin will be treated in all its complexities in the Alberta Water Plan study. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Calgary Mountain View. Hansard MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon.

Minister of Education who brought in yesterday's motion on Hansard. When can we expect the first edition of Hansard? This is now the ninth day of March. We had the first session on March 2nd and I understand that this was supposed to be a daily report. The motion was retroactive to the second of March. MR. SPEAKER: May I suggest to the hon. member that he might direct his question to the editor of Hansard, Mr. Peter Swann. The hon. Member for Calgary McKnight. Annexation of Municipalities MR. HO LEM: I would like to direct this question to the hon. Premier. Would the hon.

Premier please advise what the government's position is relative to the question of annexation which is currently causing considerable concern to citizens of Edmonton, Sherwood Park, St. Albert, Strathcona, and Sturgeon? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I think that question would be more properly directed to the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs who has been in consultation with the various members who are concerned. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 212

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-7 MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, we have heard via the press over the last two or three week period that the City of Edmonton intends to make a presentation to the provincial government with respect to annexation and a report known as the Hansen Report. To date they have not yet made that presentation. Yesterday, as a result of concern by the other municipalities mentioned by the hon. member, Mr. Zander, Mr. Purdy, Mr. Ashton, and Mr. Jamison met in my office with municipal members of their own councils to put forth their viewpoints, but that is where the matter stands at the moment.

We have still not received the submission from the City of Edmonton. MR. HO LEM: Mr. Speaker, you mention the number of names of the hon. members attached to this committee. I wonder if you had perhaps considered the name of the hon. Minister of Health and Social Development in that he had made a previous statement regarding his previous stand on this question of annexation? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, let there be no misunderstanding, there is no committee.

The members I mentioned are members of the Legislature, who represent or who have within their constituencies the surrounding municipalities who would be affected by the annexation. They simply brought in their local councils to express their concern and that's where the matter stands at the present time. MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker -- MR. SPEAKER: Is this on the same point? Hansard (Cont'

d) MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order and with respect, members of the House have no way of directing a question to Mr. Swann who is not a member of this House, and in view of that could we know the name of the minister who is going to report on Hansard, or do you want the questions addressed to you, yourself as Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: As I understand it, I am not at liberty to answer questions in the House but I will be glad to provide the information. MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, there should surely then be a minister who would be answerable to the House for questions concerning Hansard.

Could we in due course know the name of that hon. minister? MR. SPEAKER: I believe the resolution makes the Speaker responsible and I don't think there is any provision in it for a minister to be responsible as well, but if the wish of the House is otherwise it could be dealt with. MR. TAYLOR: Another point of order, Mr. Speaker; obviously we cannot ask Mr. Speaker questions in the House and this would not. be right or proper, Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 213

6-8 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972 but we should have the right and should know to whom we should direct questions of expenditure in connection with Hansard, and surely some minister of the Crown will be appointed to deal with such questions in the House. I am not pressing for an answer immediately, but we should know who that minister is going to be. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr.

Speaker, on the point of order, perhaps we will check into what the practice is in other provinces and in the House in Ottawa, with a view to seeing if some machinery can be set forth to carry out what the hon. gentleman advises, although my understanding is that Hansard is under Your Honour's directions, but I can understand the members' need for information from time to time. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Calgary North Hill. Field, B.C. Resort MR. FARRAN: Mr. Speaker, a question to the hon. Minister without Portfolio in charge of Tourism.

Is there any truth in the report that the Government of British Columbia has made representations to Imperial Oil Ltd. regarding the establishment of resort facilities at Field, B.C.? MR. DOWLING: Well, Mr. Speaker, I understand from past experience or knowledge that the hon. Premier of the Province of B.C. has a knack of establishing pipelines or claiming to. One of those pipelines is not to me. I have no direct knowledge of any such negotiations under way at the present time, but knowing the hon. Mr. Bennett as I do, I wouldn't be at all surprised. Marijuana MR. TAYLOR: Mr.

Speaker, may I direct a question to the hon. Minister of Health and Social Development? Does the hon. minister agree with the findings of the report recently issued by the Ontario Alcohol and Drug Addiction Commission, in which it states that marijuana does no harm to the human body? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I want to give the hon. member a full answer to that in the context of a complete examination of the Ontario study. I don't mind saying that in the manner in which the hon. member has put it, by selecting that part of the study on which to base his question, it sounds very questionable to me. MR.

TAYLOR: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, I'm simply asking if the hon. member agrees with the findings of that commission, that marijuana does no harm to the human body. MR. CRAWFORD: I say again that the hon. member has selected one part of the findings of the committee in which to phrase his question, the part relating to marijuana and I find that suggestion on the part of that commission to be a very questionable one. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 214

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-9 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Edmonton Highlands. Dr. Craig Case (Cont'

d) MR. KING: Mr. Speaker, in the light of the interest which the topic is engendering in the House, I was wondering if the hon. Attorney General would make a commitment to do as he offered to do earlier, and that is to table and to read in this Legislative Assembly the press report relating to the Dr. David Craig case. MR. LEITCH: "Attorney General, Merv Leitch today said that he was aware of the public concern over the seizure of the files of Dr. John Craig, and for that reason was issuing a statement clarifying some aspects of the matter. He said that for some time the police have been investigating Dr.

Craig's method of prescribing certain drugs. As a result of that investigation Dr. Craig was today charged with causing death by criminal negligence. During the time the police were investigating the matters which led to the criminal negligence charge, they obtained information from which they laid a charge of fraud under

Section 338 of the Criminal Code. On January 17, 1972, a provincial judge issued a warrant to search Dr. Craig's records and documents for evidence in respect to the commission of the offence of fraud. A lawyer acting for Dr. Craig made an application to set aside the search warrant issued on January 17, 1972. The lawyer also made an application for an order that Dr. Craig's documents be sealed and delivered to the Clerk of the Supreme Court of Alberta, judicial district of Edmonton until the application to set aside the search warrant had been heard.

That application was granted, and the files delivered to the Clerk. Thursday, February 24, 1972, an agent of the Attorney General's Department consented to an order setting aside the search warrant because he was of the opinion that the information filed on the application for the warrant did not contain sufficient particulars. A further search warrant was today issued to seize documents that might afford evidence to the commission of the defence of criminal negligence causing death.

The Attorney General said that fear had been expressed that the police had seized the doctor's records for the purpose of obtaining information about his patients, and he wanted to point out that this was never the intention or purpose of the police. The application for the search warrant was made in both instances for the purposes of obtaining information about the offences for which Dr. Craig has been charged.

The Attorney General also drew attention to the fact that the police were subject to severe penalties if they breached the rules of their code of discipline governing the disclosure of information obtained in the course of their duties. Agents of the Attorney General's Department take, under the provisions of The Public Service Act, an oath not to disclose, without due authorization, anything which comes to their knowledge by reason of their employment. He also pointed out that when documents are seized under a search warrant they are in control of the court, and not the police.

Search warrants merely authorize the police to take possession of the documents and thereafter bring them before the judicial officer issuing the search warrant, or some other judicial officer. The police, in seizing documents, are, in effect, acting on behalf of the court. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 215

6-10 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972 The Attorney General said there was a very important distinction between the public disclosure of information by employees or officers of the government, and a court taking possession of the documents under a search warrant. Mr. Leitch then drew attention to the rule that restricts public comment on cases that are before the courts. In his opinion, officers of the government should scrupulously follow that rule and for that reason he did not wish to make any further comment upon any aspects of the outstanding charges until after they were disposed of by the courts." Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to table that release. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary question from the hon. Member for Edmonton Highlands. MR. KING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, to the hon. Minister of Health and Social Development, who earlier was also involved in the exchange of questions.

In view of the recent very stringent restrictions which have been placed on the use of methadone and amphetamines by the federal government, has the provincial Department of Health and Social Development received any communication, either from the federal government, or from within the province, to indicate that the restriction on methadone and amphetamines was the result of the misuse of it in some forms of treatment and the apparent inability of the medical profession to control its use? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I think the question of misuse of this particular drug in treatment is involved in the situation referred to in the question. However, to my knowledge, no communication in that regard has been received from the federal government. If representations were received from within the province, from various interested groups, I would have to do an examination of departmental files before answering that for sure, and would be willing to do so. The Police Act MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Attorney General.

Has he had any representations from any municipality in the province with regard to the amendment or the repeal of The Police Act? I am directing the question to him to answer this and with particular reference to the City of Calgary. MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I've had some verbal communication with various people about The Police Act. I don't recall any written communication. I have said to those people, as I have said a number of times in public that The Police Act which came into force in June of last year made some significant changes.

It created some confusion or difficulty in those changes and I was of the opinion that we should not add to that difficulty by making immediate changes to the existing legislation. In addition, I said that, in my view, I thought the existing legislation should remain in effect for a little while, so that people could gather some experience with it, and after they had gotten that experience, would be better able to offer criticisms and suggestions for the changes which I am sure will be made in the future. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 216

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-11 MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the hon. the Attorney General that in the event that he received any correspondence from the City or Calgary, the Council, I would like to have that correspondence tabled on this particular issue. MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, that's (

a) hypothetical, and (

b) I'm sure that I should be given the opportunity of seeing the correspondence before I make any such commitments to the hon. member. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, my question was prompted only because the hon. Attorney General did not know whether he received any or not. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Spirit River-Fairview. Lesser Slave Lake Development MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this question to the hon. Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. I am referring to the Lesser Slave Lake special development area which was expanded to include Grande Prairie.

Is the minister aware of the letter from the hon. Mr. Marchand to the effect that in the extended area of the special areas program, funds will only be available to large enterprises, not small enterprises, and if so, what steps are being contemplated by this Government to protest what in my view is a thoroughly outrageous example of discrimination against Alberta small businessmen? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, the question has been one of considerable concern to the people in the Grande Prairie area. You didn't say who Mr. Marchand sent the letter to; I'm not sure how to isolate the receiver, Mr. Speaker. MR.

NOTLEY: [Comment inaudible] MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, the real problem was that in this area not a true designated area was created, and we have had considerable discussions with the people who are pretty upset about it. One thing we are doing about it, is that we are meeting with Mr. Marchand this coming Monday in Ottawa, and this will be one of the subjects discussed. Another thing that is being contemplated is certain moves by our Minister of Industry and Commerce. I think those moves will go a great distance in alleviating the problem, and he may have something that he would like to add at this point. MR.

SPEAKER: Is this a supplementary? Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 217

6-12 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972 MR. NOTLEY: Do I take it then that the Provincial Government is making formal representation to have the boundaries of the special areas program expanded in total, in its total concept to the entire Peace? MR. GETTY: No, the special areas program, Mr. Speaker, is a matter of considerable discussion, and I wouldn't say that we're making formal representation to do that specific thing. We're discussing it in a much broader context. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Smoky River. Snow Removal MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Highways.

Would the Minister of Highways tell us if his department has given any thought to implementing a policy whereby government snow ploughs will be used to plough roads to haystacks and grain bins and this type of thing in improvement districts? MR. COPITHORNE: Mr. Speaker, this has been an exceptionally deep snow winter all over the province, and we are giving, and have given consideration to having a policy of doing this sort of work in ID's where an emergencies exist. I think that at this time emergencies do exist in most of these areas. MR. R. SPEAKER: DREE Program Mr.

Speaker, as a supplementary question to the Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. In having discussions with Mr. Marchand, do you intend to request that he amend the departmental act that established the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, which will enable the province to obtain the funds that are now allotted towards industrial incentives, so that the funds can be distributed by the province in their order of priority? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, the discussions will cover a great many areas regarding Mr. Marchand's department.

I would guess the very thing you mentioned would probably be discussed. The problem with the Grande Prairie area Mr. Speaker, to give a little more information in that regard, is that we had the ridiculous situation where not only did the federal government's program not cover the area, but because of poor communications at the time, neither did the provincial program cover the area. So there was considerable dissatisfaction and we are trying to clear that up. Rapeseed Plant MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this question to the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Has the government given its authorization as yet to the proposed rapeseed processing plant in High Prairie which I understand is going to make application for an incentive grant under the special areas program? Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 218

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-13 DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, the Department of Agriculture is not involved in the authorization of a plant or in picking the sites for such a plant, and this relates, I would suggest more to the companies involved and the local people involved. My understanding is that the final site has not been finalized in regard to the rapeseed processing plant in the north, but I stand open to correction on that. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question on this matter to the Minister of Industry.

Is the minister aware of the very widespread opposition among rapeseeed growers in northern Alberta about this location? As the minister may or may not know, High Prairie is off to one end of the district. It would occasion a great deal of added expense and inconvenience to rapeseed growers were it constructed there.

And the question I would like to pose to the minister is, failing any changes in the special areas program as it applies to the rest of the Peace River country, will the government consider matching grants or incentive subsidies of one kind or another to locate the plant in an area that would be more in the interests of the rapeseed growers of northern Alberta? MR. PEACOCK: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs said, we are having a meeting with Mr.

Marchand on Monday and I'd rather reserve making any comment on a hypothetical situation on what the Province of Alberta might do in relation to the support of incentive programs that we may offer to the location of a rapeseed plant in northwestern Alberta until after the Ottawa meeting. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Stony Plain. MR. PURDY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Health and Social Development. Has any correspondence been received from the City of Edmonton in regard to a newspaper

article that came out last night about the City of Edmonton wanting to opt out of social development payments? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, this is a matter that has come up in respect to two or three municipalities in the province from time to time. There has been no correspondence with the City of Edmonton as such. The newspapers would indicate that it's a current matter of discussion before City Council and we would expect to hear from them after Council has made some resolution of it in their own minds.

I might add that prior to the end of the session, I would hope to be able to have a position paper in regard to this subject before the House. ARDA Program MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. In his discussions with the hon. Mr. Marchand, will he be discussing the ARDA program and the ARDA agreement? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, yes. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 219

6-14 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972 MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Will he specifically be looking at the agreement for rehabilitation of irrigation projects? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, it may come up. I would say probably yes, but that isn't the specific nature of our discussions. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, in the light of that question, does the hon. minister feel that the irrigation districts are not significant enough and important enough to put on a priority list? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, it's a question I'm happy to answer. Obviously no, but Mr.

Speaker, there is considerable discussion doing on on that matter. He was referring to a particular visit and meeting that we're having. There's considerable going on about the irrigation districts. As a matter of fact, it may be that the hon. Minister of the Environment may want to add something at this time in regard to that. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister for clarification. Does he do all of the negotiations for cost-shared programs between the federal government and the provincial government? MR. GETTY: Mr.

Speaker, this is something that causes some confusion, I'm sure, with members of the House, and it will be discussed, both in the Throne Speech debate when I participate, and perhaps when certain legislation is introduced, Mr. Speaker, regarding the department. However for clarity, right now, no, all of our ministers are involved in negotiations when the responsibility touches on their departments. Minimum Wage Law MR. GRUENWALD: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Labour.

Do you intend, Sir, to make recommendations or hold hearings in an effort to determine the advisability of the possibility of increasing the minimum wage? DR. HOHOL: Mr. Speaker, for the information of the hon. member for Lethbridge and this Assembly it is the feeling of this government that it is time to review the minimum wage law, and to that extent, in addition to our own studies, we will hold public hearings following this session. If I may, with your permission, I would just recall that the minimum wage law permits, at this point, in the sections of the Board of Industrial Relations, $1.55 an hour.

For people under the age of 18 working as students, there are orders which permit less than the minimum wage. This included 15 cents an hour less, to $1.40. Students working part-time and going to school part-time under

Section 8 receive $1.00 an hour if they are over the full age of 18, Mr. Speaker and 85 cents an hour if they are less than the full age of 18 years. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 220

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-15 Irrigation Rehabilitation MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the hon. Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. Could he advise me which minister would be responsible for settling the agreement for irrigation rehabilitation funds? MR. GETTY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. It would be a matter for joint negotiation. It would involve our Minister of Agriculture; it would involve our Minister of the Environment; it would involve myself, whatever people are appointed by the federal government. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question.

Could the Minister advise me if there have been any negotiations on this particular subject by the ministers that are mentioned at this time? MR. GETTY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I offered to have the Minister of the Environment provide you with some additional information, and he's happy to, if you so desire. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, I'd appreciate that information at this time. MR. YURKO: In reply to the hon. member's question. We have had continuing talks with the federal government with respect to irrigation rehabilitation.

Earlier in the year we had approved the Carsland weir project, which was give by approval by this government for PFRA to proceed with the installation of this weir which was going to cost approximately $4.5 million. We have subsequently had continuing negotiations at the technical level in connection with resolving some of the matters that still need to be resolved in arriving at an agreement, and I have been in contact with Mr. Marchand on this matter, so that the matter is under very active negotiation. MR. STROM: Mr.

Speaker, if I may ask another supplementary question along the same line as the one considered by my hon. colleague. I'm really anxious to know whether or not the work that the PFRA are doing at the present time constitutes part of the cost-sharing agreements that the federal government have been discussing with the provincial government for some time, or are they going ahead with this without having any agreement on cost-sharing on irrigation rehabilitation? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, PFRA has undertaken this project with the understanding that it in fact will be part of the overall agreement. MR. STROM: Mr.

Speaker, if I might just get another supplementary question on this, and I'm sorry we may not get all the questions we want on it today but I would like to advise the ministers we would like more information. Are the federal government officials still attempting to get agreement on the return of their irrigation project to the provincial government as part of an agreement on rehabilitation? Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 221

6-16 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972 MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated, we have active negotiations between the technical people, and one item that is still being actively negotiated is in fact the item that the hon. member has mentioned. Another item of negotiation is the extent of continuing aid by the federal government to the irrigation districts. MR. STROM: Mr. Speaker, another supplementary question.

Is it fair then to say that the federal government are insisting that part of the agreement be the return of an irrigation project that is presently being operated by them to the provincial government and become part of the provincial operation? Mr. Speaker, I see they're shaking their heads over there. I would then like to ask, too, has the federal government said that they are going to retain the operation of their irrigation district? There seems to be an inconsistency, Mr. Speaker. MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, this item has been negotiated and it's part of the negotiation at this time. MR. R.

SPEAKER: Supplementary question. Could the hon. minister place before the House the present position of the provincial government? MR. YURKO: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the whole matter is being negotiated at this time. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, certainly negotiations have to start from a certain point. I believe the hon. minister could place before the House the ground rules that he has set down for the provincial government to use in negotiations. MR. SPEAKER: Could I just mention that two minutes remain in the question period. MR. GETTY: Mr.

Speaker, it may have been that that kind of negotiation is the type that was carried on in the past, which ended up in the difficult situations that the province is in regarding federal- provincial cost-sharing programs. Mr. Speaker, when you are negotiating something you don't place your position on the table first. I am sure, Mr. Speaker, you are able to develop the negotiations far better when you're not taking that kind of position. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, I don't quite follow the hon. minister's explanation. Certainly when a discussion occurs — SOME HON. MEMBERS: What is your question?

Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 222

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-17 MR. R. SPEAKER: The question that I would like to ask of the minister is: have they any position at all? Teachers and The Alberta Labour Act MR. DIXON: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Labour. Concern has been expressed by the teachers of the Edmonton Public School Board regarding the possibility of the teachers being taken out from underneath The Alberta Labour Act. I wonder if the government is giving any consideration to taking the teachers out of The Alberta Labour Act. DR. HOHOL: Mr.

Speaker, the whole matter of the collective bargaining procedures in Alberta will be under review when I bring in The Manpower and Labour Act. But this question which the hon. member puts has not been a consideration of this government at the present time. Irrigation Rehabilitation (cont.) MR. STROM: A further question to either the hon. Minister of Environmental Affairs or Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs.

Has the federal government placed a position before the provincial government in regard to the matter that we have just raised -- a position that is of a firm nature and that is something that the provincial government can consider? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, the federal government has not placed before the provincial government a firm position other than what it had placed before the previous government up to this point in time. MR. SPEAKER: The time allotted for questions has passed. ORDERS OF THE DAY HEAD: QUESTIONS MR. HENDERSON: Mr.

Speaker, I move Motion for a Return No. 107 standing in my name on the Order Paper. MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, 107 and 109 are two motions I spoke on Tuesday last and asked that they be put over until today because there was some work I wanted to do and I find I haven't yet been able to do it. I wonder if the hon. member would agree to them being put over to Tuesday next. MR. SPEAKER: This applies to both 107 and 109 to be put over to Tuesday next? Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 223

6-18 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972 HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. STROM: Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague Mr. Clark is sick in bed with the flu and is staying there under doctor's orders. I would be prepared to move Motions 116 in his place providing there is no change in, and I would like to so move, seconded by the hon. Mr. Taylor. DR. HOHOL: Mr. Speaker, we find the questions in order and will be prepared to table them exactly as put forth in due time when we get the information together. 116. Mr. Strom moved on behalf of Mr. Clark, seconded by Mr. Taylor: That an Order of the Assembly do issue for a Return showing:

(1) The dates of all meetings held between any officials of the Board of Industrial Relations and representatives of the Bow Valley School Authorities Association from November 15, 1971 until December 30, 1971.

(2) The dates of all meetings held between the Deputy Minister of Labour and any and all representatives of the Bow Valley School Authorities Association from November 15, 1971 until December 30, 1971.

(3) The dates and locations of all meetings the Minister of Labour in the Alberta Government had with representatives of the Bow Valley School Authorities Association from November 15, 1971 to December 30, 1971. 117. Mr. Strom moved on behalf of Mr. Clark, seconded by Mr. Taylor: That an Order of the Assembly do issue for a Return showing:

(1) The dates of all meetings held between any officials of the Board of Industrial Relations and representatives of the North Central Alberta (West) School Authorities Association from October 1, 1971 until October 31, 1971.

(2) The dates of all meetings held between the Deputy Minister of Labour and any and all representatives of the North Central Alberta (West) School Authorities Association from October 1, 1971 until October 31, 1971.

(3) The dates and locations of all meetings the Minister of Labour in the Alberta Government had with representatives of the North Central Alberta (West) School Authorities from October 1, 1971 until October 31, 1971. [The motions were carried without debate.] 118. Moved by Mr. French, seconded by Mr. Sorenson: That an Order of the Assembly do issue for a Return showing:

(1) The number of contracts with senior citizens sixty-five years of age and over, receiving premium-free health care as of January 1, 1972.

(2) The number of persons under sixty-five years of age who are dependants of senior citizens receiving the benefits of premium- free health care as of January 1, 1972. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 224

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-19

(3) The number of spouses under sixty-five years of age who are receiving the benefits of premium-free medicare and are still earning an income.

(4) The number of people who have valid medical treatment service cards as of January 1, 1972.

(5) The number of handicapped individuals under sixty-five years of age, and not a dependant of an individual over sixty-five years of age, who are receiving premium-free medical services. MISS HUNLEY: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the hon. member for Hanna-Oyen I would request he might consider amending 118 to delete

Section 3 because it is information which is not available in the Alberta Health Care Insurance Commission records. We are not in the habit of collecting it so it is not available and I wonder if he would consider an amendment to delete. MR. FRENCH: Mr. Speaker, if the information is not available I have no hesitation in agreeing to the request to have it deleted. MR. SPEAKER: And does the seconder also agree? MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, could the statement made by the hon. minister just not be put in in answer to No. 3? MR.

SPEAKER: Does the House agree to the motion being amended in that way and the reply being dealt with in that way? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, in view of the attitude on the point of order, due to the absence of the seconder, I would suggest that it remain as is and the answer given by the hon. minister simply be placed as the answer to Item 3 on the order. MR. SPEAKER: I believe that is a better procedure and would the House agree to that? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. 119. Moved by Mr. R. Speaker, seconded by Mr. French: That an Order of the Assembly do issue for a Return showing:

(1) The number of family units and total number of dependants receiving social allowances at the end of each month during the years 1971 and 1972. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 225

6-20 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972

(2) The number of family units and total number of dependants receiving social assistance at the end of each month during the years 1971 and 1972. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, in moving Motion No. 119, I have just one or two comments. If the hon. minister wishes to make this return in two different phases I would be most pleased. I recognize that certain statistics are available at the present time and that it takes a period of time to obtain the more current ones for February and March. I would be prepared to accept one submission now and then one later on when the other figures are available. MR.

SPEAKER: Does the seconder of the motion also so agree? The hon. member for Hanna-Oyen. MR. FRENCH: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: Does the House agree that the motion be dealt with in that way? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to indicate in regard to dealing with it in separate sections that I would think the way it is set out in Motion 119 is amenable to that suggestion and I will take it under consideration, depending on how long it takes to get the current data to go with the available data. For the record as of today, certainly the motion in its present form is acceptable and agreeable.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the House agree to the suggestion of the hon. minister? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. HEAD: MOTIONS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT MOTIONS MR. HYNDMAN: The hon. Speaker mentioned that he felt that we should, at this point, unless there was other discussion or another motion changing the rule, to proceed as has been the situation for some years, and have the motion which was adjourned the previous day (Tuesday) drop to the bottom of the list. This would, I submit, leave us starting with Motion 1 proposed by Mr. Hansen at this time. Driver Education MR. HANSEN: Mr.

Speaker, now I will read the motion: Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 226

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-21 "Be it resolved that the Government of Alberta give consideration to driver education in Alberta schools being rapidly expanded to all parts of the province." I feel it is an honour to speak on this motion to make Alberta and Canada a much safer place to live and also to drive. It is a must to have driver education at this stage of our lives. It is long past due, I feel, that the government should take action in seeing that driver education is available in our high schools.

It is partly done now with students getting credits for the work if they pass, and with the rising cost of property damage and the great loss of life every year, I think one of the most important parts of education is to have driver education and also to teach our young the responsibility of driving on our highways. The only time that I figure you can teach people the responsibility that will stay with them over the years is when they are young.

This is why I feel very strongly about having driver education available in the schools, because if you start out with a young person and you teach them the responsibility of driving and also the responsibility of the attitude which they have on the highways, it will stay with them throughout their lives. This is the reason why I would like to see driver education put into high schools. Young people, if they form the right habits when they are young, stay with them through the years.

If you start teaching a real old person or a real old horse or anything else, it is very hard to change their habits, but if you start out young and teach them the right way to drive on the highways you will have safer highways. Another thing that I would like to bring to your attention is the insurance problems that young drivers have today. The costs that are involved in insurance are almost out of the question for some young drivers.

I believe that with driver education it would cut down on the accidents in the province and all of Canada, if it goes far enough, which would reduce the cost of insurance in the long run. Also, Mr. Speaker, the major problems that occur on our highways are not the fault of the cars as a rule; it is the drivers'. This is due to a lack of education of the driver and his ability to drive.

I would like to say that I have in my time driven school buses, I have driven a taxi and I have driven many trucks, and I find, through experience, that if the people behind the wheel understand the laws and drive according to them, there will be a great reduction in accidents. These are some of the reasons why I am behind this motion. I would like to give you a few figures; in 1970 there were 867,730 licenced motor vehicles sold in Alberta. In all of Canada there were 8,254,160 licenced motor vehicles.

When you have this number of vehicles in Canada, I think it it well worthwhile to spend some time on your younger generation to see that they learn the right way to drive. I have some figures here. I'm sorry I haven't got them for 1970 but I have them for 1968. In 1968 there were 5,532 deaths in Canada, and over 200,000 disabling injuries occurred in Canada on the highways. I think it is long past time that we should have driver education introduced into our high schools, so that they have the choice in high schools of taking these courses.

After all, ladies and gentlemen, it is one of the greatest means of travelling in this time and age. A person even drives two blocks down to the store these days, or down to the corner drug store. For this reason, I think it is time that the government put some effort into seeing that this education is available in most high schools, if not all.

And another thing, at this time when property damage, insurance rates and everything to do with your vehicles are rising in cost, I think it is high time that the people of Alberta and Canada look Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 227

6-22 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972 seriously at this problem of training our younger generation. There are a few schools offering this education at this time, but I feel it should be available to all high schools in Alberta. I will not make a long speech out of this, because I feel very strongly that all the members in this House will agree that it is a thing that has to be put into action, and I hope that this afternoon there will be a debate on this question and many other areas will come to light.

I have only given a few here, and I will close by saying that to make Canada a safer place to drive, we should have driver education. MR. APPLEBY: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to have the honour of seconding the motion of the hon. Member for Bonnyville, on rapid expansion of driver training within the Province of Alberta. speaking to the motion, I would certainly first like to complement the hon. Minister of Education, the hon. Lou Hyndman, for the interest he has already shown in this area in the Alberta schools, and the active encouragement that he has given to this program.

I know he has indicated quite celarly that this interest and encouragement will continue. I realize, of course, the many difficulties he has inherited from the previous administration, and I have no doubt that with his outstanding ability he will be able to overcome these difficulties. Thinking about such things as these difficulties, Mr. Speaker, I could not help but note the remarks of some of the members of the Opposition on Tuesday last, remarks regarding politics and politicians. I recall in particular the remarks that the hon. Member for Pincher Creek-Crowsnest made when he was questioning the hon.

Minister of Highways, Clarence Copithorne. He brought up during the question period the matter of the "now" slogan that was part of the election platform of the party which this government now represents. And Mr. Speaker, reference to this "now" slogan was also made yesterday by the hon. member for Wetaskiwin-Leduc. I would, therefore, Mr.

Speaker, like to remind these hon. gentlemen and their colleagues, as well, that on August 30th last, the people of this province indicated in a very definite and wholehearted manner their approval of the reverse of a very old slogan which was that they wished the government in this province would change from a "never" to a "now" party. MR. DRAIN: Mr. Speaker, point of order. Is the hon. member indicating that now "now" means that -- MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. DRAIN: Does the hon. member not accept "now" as meaning now, or does he have another meaning? MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

AN HON MEMBER: Never a "now," Mr. Speaker. MR. APPLEBY: Mr. Speaker, as I second the motion, I would like to remind the hon. members of this House, the question being considered is that of Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 228

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-23 rapid expansion of driver education in Alberta. My colleague, the hon. member for Bonnyville, has outlined to you many of the benefits to be derived by Albertans by rapid expansion of such a driver education program in the Alberta schools. He covered such areas as saving lives, eliminating physical disabilities, development of mental attitudes, decreased insurance rates, reduction of property damage and many other areas of very serious concern to all of us. These are important things for us to consider.

This whole type of a program is of vital concern and vital importance, not only to students in our schools in this province who wish to enroll in this program and participate in it, but also to all the citizens of this province as well. All of us at some time travel the roads in this province, and it is in our interest to encourage every operator of a vehicle to have a thorough and complete knowledge of the responsibility that that operation entails, not only for themselves personally, but for all other persons who travel the highways.

I would like to comment on the high school driver education program as it now exists and indicate why I believe that expansion is so urgently needed. At the present time, this driver education program, which is known as Driver Education 10, is an option course being offered in our high schools for credit purposes, as well as for the benefits in driver education that goes with it.

It's being offered at the present time to approximately 930 students in 39 high schools, and when we consider that there are 312 high schools approximately in this province, we see that the percentage of schools where such instruction is being made available is small -- very very small -- something like 12 per cent. And if we also consider the number of students to whom this instruction is available in these schools, the percentage is even smaller, because where this instruction is being offered, it is not available to all the students.

The instruction is limited because of the lack of qualified instructors, lack of suitable facilities, and, of course, timetable difficulties within the schools as well. Mr. Speaker, it would seem that we should consider several priorities, if we are to acknowledge the importance of the driver education program and the expansion of it within our Alberta schools. This is a real vital option subject, and has to be regarded in this manner. One of the priorities should be the encouragement of driver education training for more of the certified teachers within this province.

I know this type of instruction is being offered every year to a limited number of certified teachers, but I would have to suggest that the number being trained is far fewer than the needs of the program might justify. Another priority Mr. Speaker, would have to be the possibility of training more teacher aides who would be qualified to give assistance in this program in the high schools of Alberta.

And a third priority has to be some method of encouraging local school administrations to recognize the importance of this subject, and by so doing to provide the necessary integration of the subject into their time-tabling within the school program. A fourth priority has to be the provision of the necessary facilities for providing the training and the instruction that is required. Mr. Speaker, I realize that the driver education course being taught as a high school option subject in the Province of Alberta has to be considered in the matter of content and compared to other high school options being offered.

This is part, of course, of the high school education program in this province, and I hope at some future time I'll be able to speak on that question as well. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 229

6-24 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972 But, personally, at the present time I would have to say that I believe that driver education should rate very, very highly in a comparison with the other high school option subjects being offered. Mr. Speaker, I do not want my remarks to be construed in any way as critical of the school driver program being offered today. It has merely been my wish and my desire to indicate to you and all the hon. members of this House the urgency of the expansion of this program and request that all the hon. members will give it their most sincere consideration. MR. TAYLOR: Mr.

Speaker, I have great pleasure in speaking on the resolution introduced by the hon. member, Mr. Hansen and seconded by the hon. member Mr. Appleby. The matter of driver education is not new in Alberta nor anywhere in Canada. The acceptance of driver education by the general public and by the school authorities and by the teachers has not been sudden, it has been gradual. Every provincial government in Canada has had difficulties in carrying the judgment of the people in connection with a driver education program.

In this province we have difficulties because, first of all, we had to carry the judgment of the Alberta Teachers' Association. I think we carried their judgment and got to the place where the teachers were generally in favour of this program. In many provinces that point has not yet been reached nor is it going to be easier to reach in the other provinces than it was here.

There's still tremendous objection to this program going into the schools; for instance, in the province of Ontario, where they have not yet been successful in having the course accepted in the curriculum, except as a subject taught at night or on Saturdays. In many places in Ontario the only time it is taught is on Saturdays. I'm not criticizing the Ontario government because I have known the minister there for a number of years, but unless the minister is going to become a dictator and tell the people what's good for them, then they have to carry the judgment of the people gradually.

I would hope that the present government in Alberta is not going to be a dictatorial government and tell people what is best for them and what they should do and how they should do it. I don't think that is the stripe of the present government. I certainly hope not, nor was it the stripe of the past administration. We tried to carry the judgment of the teachers, of the trustees, and I personally spent many, many hours in discussing this matter with trustees, with schoolteachers, with the general public at public meetings, and I think that we did make a great deal of progress.

We established the Driver Education Committee, on which the Alberta Teachers' Association was represented, and a few years before that, that would have almost been an impossibility. Membership also came from the School Trustees' Association, from the insurance industry, from the automotive trades, from the Home and School, from the university, from the Department of Education, from the Department of Highways. The organizations throughout the province affected by driver education gradually were brought together, not by dictatorship, but by carrying their judgment, until we had a viable Driver Education Committee.

An organization that played a very important

part in driver education was the Alberta Motor Association and I give them credit, and the Alberta Safety Council, and I give them credit, too. But it wasn't done overnight. It wasn't done by pressing a button, as the hon. seconder of the motion seems to think can be done. I would have liked to have made faster progress, too. And I'm sure every hon. Member of the past Legislatures would have liked to have made faster progress, but I'm not ashamed of the progress that was made. I appreciate the support that the Legislature gave this program the support from members on all sides of the House. A few Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 230

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-25 members objected to injecting driver education into the schools, but the majority supported it, and we were able to offer it, first of all as a straight optional course. The first province in Canada to do that was the Province of Saskatchewan, and there they made it a high school optional course. But they didn't provide credits for it, and consequently, many students were more willing to take courses that gave them a credit than a course that was going to have a great deal to do with how long they lived and how long other people would live. And so they took the credit courses.

We saw this, and so did the Saskatchewan authorities. And I believe the Saskatchewan Government today is still trying to carry the judgment of the people of Saskatchewan in order to get it as a credit course. But in this province we were able to do that. We were able to carry the judgment of the Minister of Education, of the Department of Education, and believe me, that was no easy task, even when the Minister of Education was on your side of the House, because there was tremendous resistance in the Department of Education about making driver education even an optional course, let alone a credit course.

Finally we secured a minister in Alberta who was able to carry the judgment, and I pay tribute to the hon. member for Olds-Didsbury for his attitude of discussing this and carrying the judgment of his own officials and making driver education a two-credit course. This was a big advance, and we're still the only province in Canada that offers this as a credit course -- the only one in Canada. And when the hon. member Mr.

Appleby regrets only 930 students taking the course, I'm delighted that 930 students are taking the course, because just a few years ago the number of students taking the course was down below the 100 mark. This has been a hard and a difficult task, and to add to the difficulty, two of the daily papers in the province took a very stiff editorial stand against the introduction of driver education in the schools. And let's not kid ourselves. The editorial columns do influence a great number of people, and reflect the thinking of quite a number of people.

This was a difficult job, overcoming some of the arguments that were advanced by the editorial writers of the Edmonton Journal and the Calgary Herald, and maybe other papers as well. I'm not criticizing the press for taking that stand, because I find outside there's a sizeable number of people who still don't think driver education has any place in the school curriculum.

With them I disagree, and I'm prepared to use all the power that's at my command to persuade that driver education should be expanded in our schools, and I'm delighted that the present government is continuing the programs started by the last administration. This is not a political question. This is a matter of life and death to present and future citizens in this province, I am delighted that the present government is continuing the program started by the last administration. This is not a political question. This is a matter of life and death to the present and future citizens in this province.

And I would refuse to play politics with this matter of driver education. It's too important. It's something that people of every political stripe should work out carefully, because people of every political stripe are going to be killed in the future, and crippled in the future, unless more and more of our young people take driver education, become educated in driving, and become better drivers, just as they become better citizens because they take courses in citizenship, and become better calculators because they take education in mathematics.

Yes, I congratulate the government on continuing the program that the previous administration started and I hope -- it's a question that I want to ask the Minister of Education and maybe it can be answered in this debate -- that the driver education course will be continued. It was not political. I don't know the politics Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 231

6-26 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972 of one person on that Driver Education Committee. Politics was not discussed but it was a valuable committee, and it was there we started the program of training teachers so that we could have a core of trained teachers when the program did come in. There is no use offering a course to the boys and girls of Alberta if you don't have trained instructors. No use at all. You could ruin the course before you even got started. But when we started it as an optional course we had a back-log of some 100 to 200 teachers trained in driver education.

And I give great credit to the Alberta Motor Association, because they went the "second mile" in helping to train these teachers as driver education teachers. I don't go along with those who say that a teacher, because he is a top notch teacher in mathematics, is capable of teaching driver education. This is a specialist subject, the same as the other subjects are. It requires special training. And I hope that the hon.

Minister of Education and the government will continue that Driver Education Committee because much of the credit for the advancement that we made in driver education goes to the Driver Education Committee. Now, there are one or two points I'd like to mention. I would like to see every high school boy and girl take driver education. But I think there are some things we have to remember. First, in this province we have local autonomy. And I believe the policy of the present government is to retain local autonomy, maybe to expand local autonomy. I hope so.

Local autonomy where the people at the grass roots closest to the people, decide which courses are going to be offered within the framework of the School Act. And it's not a case of the Minister of Education saying to every school board: "you have to," "we know better than you," "we know better than the school board in your area." I don't think that would be sound procedure at all. I think it's a case of carrying the judgment of the local councillors and school trustees so that they will want to put this driver education into their program. Local autonomy should be preserved.

And if we lose local autonomy, maybe we are going to lose a great deal. We will — no maybe about it, — We will lose a great deal in this province whether it's in driver education or in other matters. Let no legislature or no government or no minister think that they have all the answers, that they know better than the people at the grass roots. That's the very basis of democracy; that's where we differ from totalitarianism. We think that the people at the grass roots do have information and knowledge and experience valuable to even the most experienced minister, to the most experienced government.

And I want to say that as far as I am concerned, local autonomy is an important issue in this particular item and has to be considered in connection with expansion of driver education. And then, there is another matter, too. The hon. minister, who I am sure, is a strong supporter of driver education, couldn't press a button tomorrow, or next September, and start driver education in all the schools in Alberta. There are not enough trained teachers at the present time.

I think a program to train rapidly, as rapidly as possible, teachers in this particular science is important, so that there can now be, since we have a credit course, an increased acceleration of the training of teachers in driver education. It's important, and I hope that there can now be since we have a credit course, an increased acceleration of the training of teachers in driver education. Again I pay great tribute to the AMA and the car dealers and the car manufacturers for their

part in making cars available for the training of teachers at no charge to the general public, and this is an important thing. We have to have qualified teachers if we are going to make this course a success. And then of course, I think the next item that comes up is who is going to pay. I didn't come across very many trustees anywhere in the Province of Alberta who would not like to have driver education in their schools, but they always come up with the question, we don't Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 232

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-27 have enough money to put on another course; who is going to pay? Because if you make it a regular course like mathematics and social studies and so on, there is going to be a great amount of increased cost. A great many more dollars will be required. If the hon. Provincial Treasurer can supply that kind of money to the Minister of Education without increased taxation to the people, I am all for it. But I think we have to remember that in these days when there isn't enough money to do everything you want to do, you have to establish some priorities.

I want to see the program expanded as quickly as possible, but I don't want it expanded to the point where we're going to have to increase the amount of taxation we are taking from people today who are already too heavily taxed. I think we have to consider that. Certainly, it's important and the quicker we can get qualified teachers and this course as a credit course in every high school in Alberta, the better it will be. But we can't do it by pressing a button. It's going to take a little time and a lot of hard work to get it into that stage. And then, of course, we come to the other point about the cars.

I think this has to be explored very carefully and I am sure the hon. Minister of Education would be the first to do that. The manufacturers today are prepared to supply cars up to the point we have gone. Would they be prepared to supply cars if every high school in the province offered driver education? I don't know, I have asked them. They said they would consider it when that time comes, but they hope progressively to get up to that point because today I'm not sure that that number of cars would be available for the program.

It's a progressive thing and I am hoping that the manufacturers will continue that program and that the dealers of the province, to whom there is a great deal of credit too when they make a vehicle available to the schools at no profit to themselves in which to train youngsters, will continue. I know there is a value in it because if I learn how to drive in a Chrysler, I would undoubtedly want to buy a Chrysler later on. If I learn how to drive in a Ford, I may want to drive a Ford. There's a value there and I think that the dealers and manufacturers will always recognize that.

I also hope that they will be able to continue progressively to provide the cars. I have said some harsh things about insurance companies on the Floor of this Chamber many times when I thought they were not doing the thing that was right. But I do want to commend them for the steps they have taken in giving reduced premiums to those who take an approved course in driver education and pass that course. That means young persons get a reduced premium and it means that over a period of two or three years, even though they paid part of the cost of the course, they are going to be money ahead.

And I commend the insurance industry for this. I have made a suggestion to the insurance industry and I am sorry they haven't accepted it, because today, even with the present program for those who have passed approved driver education course, while that program is good, to the general bulk of young people insurance is not very fair.

I have suggested to the industry that it provide a refund, that if it must charge the higher rate to the young person because he has not had experience, even though it now gives the best rate possible to that group, if that young person is able to drive one full year without an accident, he could get a portion of that premium back. That would be the greatest incentive towards safe driving that we could provide.

There is an incentive today to take driver education courses -- but that would be a tremendous incentive because every young person would say — "I can make money, I can save part of my premium by driving safely without having convictions or accidents." I again ask the insurance industry of Canada to not throw this suggestion away too lightly, because if we want to reduce the costs of insurance, Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 233

6-28 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972 education is the one way we can do it. If we want to reduce the number of deaths and cripplings on the highways and streets of Alberta and Canada there has to be an incentive, a real incentive on the part of every driver to drive carefully and safely all the time. One of the greatest incentives is when it touches the pocketbooks of young people -- let's start with young people -- if they could get part of their premiums back, this would be a tremendous incentive, one of the greatest incentives for safe driving in this country.

And I would wager that we could cut down the death rate on the highways and streets in Canada by at least 25 per cent if that program was put into effect; 25 per cent of 5,000 fellow Canadians who are killed on our highways and streets every year are a lot of people, and I think that it's important enough for the insurance industry to again consider. But what they have done is an incentive towards driver education. I am glad to see the credit course being continued; this is important. The two credits, maybe two are not many, but there are two credits available and this will certainly help a great deal. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in regard to the resolution that Alberta give consideration to driver education in Alberta schools being rapidly expanded to all parts of the province -- we support the resolution having in mind that we are going to retain local economy, that the dealers and the car manufacturers will be expected to play their part, that the insurance industry will be expected to play its part and having in mind, too, that the costs to the taxpayer are gradually going to increase on this program when it takes place.

We have to watch those costs and be very careful, right now, in not adding additional costs on to the shoulders of the people. I don't think there has been much additional cost to date; I don't know the exact figure on the program the way it has been advancing, because of local autonomy, the local people, when they decide to do this, have done it in such a way as to keep their costs down. Some boards may have even made charges to students, and they, because of reduced insurance rates, have been able to come out even better financially than they otherwise would.

But we have to watch the taxpayer's money as well as the other things; we have to watch the local autonomy and at the same time progressively advance with qualified teachers and credit courses throughout the province until every boy and girl has an opportunity at least to take a course in driver education. We plan to support this resolution. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Cardston. MR. HINMAN: Mr. Speaker, I don't plan to do a lot of talking in the House but this is one subject that intrigues me.

I like the resolution and I'm not going to move an amendment, but I would like it even better if the words 'in schools' were not in it because I think that it's a kind of an education that can be very minimally done in schools. I think the people who prepared this resolution gave us a fair

summary of the advantages which we can hope to gain by driver education, the knowledge of the rules, but more particularly the cultivation of driving attitudes. Now these, I submit, can be taught without any special courses in the schools; they can be taught in a number of courses because they are matters of courtesy and matters of repetition. Nothing is so effective as to show children once in a while actual movies of a wreck. I remember one state in the U.S. at one time who took those convicted of bad driving to places where they were made to see movies of some of the worst of the wrecks that had taken place.

These people afterwards acknowledged that it had done a great deal for their attitudes. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 234

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-29 There are two things concerned here; one is the cultivation of attitudes, the other is the actual training, the actual expereince in the manipulation of an automobile. The first, as I have indicated, I think can be done without any special place in the high school curriculum. The other cannot very well be done even if you put it in the high school curriculum and there are many reasons for me saying that. In the first place, children need this experience at the time that they are going to start driving, or at the time they are going to apply for licences.

Their birthdays go on all through the year. About all you can teach them about the rules can be taught in two weeks; all you can give them in experience can't be done in any limited time. If a child is nervous, the most important thing perhaps is to develop confidence in that young person who is learning to drive. If a person is too cocky by nature you can usually recognize it and you have to give him some experience which changes that.

This would require, I think, that if it were made compulsory, school boards would have to go into a very great deal of expense, particularly our big schools, and I'm not sure even then it would be very effective. I would like to say that you soon forget, whether you're an adult or a child, and if you examine me just after I've qualified for a new licence, I do pretty well on the rules, but I have had the experience with four children with training them.

And every time when I got ready to give the new member of the family instruction I was a little horrified at how unsure I was of some of the rules, even though I had been driving for years. And so I say that a course does not necessarily stay with them. Driver education is something that needs some continuation. Now, perhaps we could have somebody devise a link trainer. We used them very successfully in training pilots for the war, and perhaps something like that is a field where the government might give some direction.

A tool — some of you who have taken some of these elaborate examinations in the States for drivers know what they're like. They put you in this facsimile of a car; the car doesn't move but around you, in three dimensions, moves the highway and they are able to measure your reactions to the various things that happen, and it's a pretty educational process. Maybe we can do something like that. Another thing I want to mention is that there are very, very many people who have to learn to drive who are not in our schools and who will not be in our schools, and they need an opportunity.

About the first thing the drop-out of high school does is get a car, as most of you know, and sometimes the very things that make him a drop- out also make him a little bit dangerous in the possession of a car. Maybe our courts could refer people to special driving schools. But what I would like to suggest is to encourage a sort of a voluntary system, and there are some ways to do it.

One way would be to set up some strips of these abandoned highways specifically for driving training, or perhaps in the city cordon off a block once in a while, maybe every evening, where under supervision people could get practice driving. Another thing we could do, perhaps, would be to provide rental cars at very cheap rates, and certainly you can drive in a car that doesn't have to be new and doesn't have to be supplied by some company.

But most of all, I think, if you could get some of our young drivers -- we're always talking about hippies and young people -- but I have found a great deal of courtesy among some of these people and I have found that whenever you can enlist their help in a program they are anxious to help you. I think if you could give them some special recognition, if they were willing to spend a few hours a day at one of these designated fields or old highways if you wish, giving the youngsters confidence, giving them some practice and direction.

Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 235

6-30 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972 And in these fields, too, you would need to provide some of the usual hazards; that's one of the most difficult things to teach drivers. I remember taking my own children out where there were lines of gravel and saying: "move over here", while I was ready to take the wheel, and almost invariably they would have lost control of the car. They need to have experience in these hazards which you can't give them just around the city.

Now there are some other things you might do, if you organized a community project, enlisted these young people and gave them some special recognition and some little contest — we used to have in our town what we called automobile rodeos. We let all the children compete in the handling of automobiles, just one at a time, and they certainly could outdo the old people because I tried it once and I didn't score very well. Another thing we could do is initiate pledge buttons. When a child comes for a license ask him if he wants to take a pledge and accept a button.

He wears a button and this button is a pledge that he will observe the courtesies and the laws of the road. It's something that reminds him that driving is a privilege. On the other hand, maybe we could have some other kinds of buttons. A yellow button, and when a youngster is convicted of an offense we might require him to carry it with him and to hook it over the left hand window of the car he is driving, for a certain period, just to keep reminding him again that these are important things. Now, to repeat, I would hate to see this made compulsory because as Mr. Taylor said it's expensive.

It won't work very well if you make it compulsory for a school to give the course, but if you don't make it compulsory for the student to take it, you haven't accomplished much. And of course you can't compel many people who need driver training to take the course. The important thing first is to cultivate attitudes. You can do it perhaps by having some of what might be horror movies. You can do it perhaps by racing pictures, showing how people can develop great skills in manoeuvring these cars.

You can do it by providing a field or a piece of highway with some built-in hazards where these children can be trained. But I think most important of all would be this community effort of getting volunteer people, perhaps volunteer cars, using pledge buttons and encouraging the attitudes which I know in the end will be most important of all. I would not move an amendment, but I would be very happy, if when the consideration is given it goes much further than encouraging driver education in the schools. Thank you Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Edmonton Beverly. MR. DIACHUK: Mr.

Speaker, may I first compliment the two gentlemen, hon. Members for Bonnyville and Athabasca, with regard to their concern about driver education. My number of years as a member of a school board and serving on the executive of the School Trustees' Association of Alberta involved me in many, many debates with regard to driver education. First and foremost I would like to stress that we have to separate driver education from driver training, and I read this resolution in that context, that it is really looking at driver education to be part of the school program. Driver training is another matter.

This is the part where you learn to drive behind the wheel of an automobile. Several of the associations that the hon. member from Drumheller may have referred to have over the past made representations to the former government. The Alberta school Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 236

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-31 Trustees have endorsed driver education. The Independent Agent's Association, as early as 1968, spoke and presented in their brief that driver education be compulsory before anyone gets a driver's licence. This seemed to fall rather on deaf ears. Excuse -- not enough trained teachers. Well, this can also be weighed.

I'm myself a parent of a growing family, a boy who is driving now, and, as a member of the business known as insurance agents, I know that practically every company that does business in Alberta recognizes driver education, and definitely considers a great reward in a reduction of premium to any young person who completes driver education, or even an adult who has never driven and has completed a driver training program. I have some criticism of one of the programs that the hon. member for Drumheller praised, and that is a program that is provided by the Alberta Motor Association.

They are truly providing driver training, but are short-changing many, many of the students with driver education. So, in that sense, I question the program that is being provided by that organization. But I do hope that they improve and take into concern the shortage that they are giving their students with regard to driver education by providing a fuller program in the education. It was interesting to note that the hon. member from Cardston commented that strips of abandoned highways be looked over, and used to provide driver education.

I would hope that he is aware that there are members in this Assembly that are trying to get highways; they cannot even find highways, let alone abandon them. A short presentation that the Independent Agents Association made and have provided to many, many citizens in this province, indicates that the educators and traffic authorities point out the following reasons for the accidents that are caused. One is lack of accurate knowledge about driving.

Others are aggressive personality traits, unsound and immature judgment, lack of cooperative attitudes, willingness to take undue risks, lack of experience, particularly in complex driving situations and emergencies. Out of all of these, only one really applies to driver training; the rest is driver education. The interesting observation of many of the people is that they seem to think that to own a driver's licence or to be in possession of a driver's licence is a right. I feel it is not; it is a privilege and one has to earn it.

You don't get this right nowadays just because you are born in this province or in this country and you are able to, at the age of 16, pass a simple written test and get your driver's licence. Therefore, in

summary, I hope that we don't play around with this resolution, that we take it as it is worded "driver education" and that it is expanded rapidly in this province. Thank you Mr. Speaker. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I have listened to the hon. members discussing this topic with a great deal of interest. It seems to me that there are a few points which could be added to the discussion, despite the fact that I feel rather humble and rise with some trepidation, particularly in view of the stirring and stentorian illustration of eloquent prowness of the hon. member for Drumheller.

There is no way I can live up to that illustration. But I am keenly interested in this topic; I feel it is very, very important. It's especially important, of course, because the highway situation which this government has inherited in the province is one which does indeed require a great deal of driving skill. Perhaps that is why the judgment of the people of the province was visited upon the past government on August 30th. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 237

6-32 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972 Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that the resolution as it is worded refers to driver education in schools and I am wondering if indeed that is our objective. It seems to me that the objectives should be to assure that all persons who apply for the first time, at least, in the province of Alberta for a driver's licence should have to demonstrate their qualifications for the permission to drive. As the hon. member for Edmonton Belmont indicated, the ability to drive is not a right but rather a privilege and it should be so considered.

If that is the case, then I feel that the resolution as worded will indeed not apply and not catch all of those persons who seek to drive on our highways. It is for that reason that I think it does not perhaps go as far as it could. There is also a question whether the requirement to provide driver training — or driver education as everyone calls it, and we've had some rather fine distinctions brought to our attention here. Incidentally, I would submit on that point that indeed the ability to drive requires both driver education and driver training.

It's both some knowledge of the rules of the road and how to react and some skill in that process. To get back to my point, it seems to me that we are confronted with a very basic issue here, one which perhaps can be expressed this way. What is the parental responsibility? What is the individual responsibility? And what is the public responsibility in this issue? I would submit, with respect that to suggest that driver education should be provided through the school system assumes that it is a public responsibility. Now, one can debate whether it is or is not a public responsibility.

Personally, I think it's a matter of opinion, and it's my opinion at the moment that the public responsibility is to assure that the people who get on the highway and have permission to drive are competent to do so. But it is not my opinion that it is a public responsibility that they should be provided with driving lessons. There is, further, the question of cost which has been brought up, and I submit that this is a question that concerns this House, and every member of it, as well as the general public, especially with reference to education.

There is another issue which has been mentioned briefly, and that is the problem of providing a time during the school day for driver education. From my conversations with teachers, it is a most difficult program to arrange. Generally speaking, the teacher is able to deal with one or two students at most at one time, and this means that the classes have to be broken up.

It would seem to me, especially in view of the rather extensive discussions presently going forward about the school year, the shifting of the school year, the use of school facilities, etc, that if we are contemplating this provision of driver education, we might well do so, perhaps through some facet of the Department of Education, although that is not my position. But if we do, aside from the regular school year. Mr.

Speaker, it seems to me that there are some citizens, and I throw out this point of view which the hon. member from Cardston has also brought to our attention, who would suggest that there are other means of providing driver education than through the school system. Now, the Alberta Motor Association does provide learning facilities and driver training facilities. There are private groups which do the same. And it would be my view that while we are faced, as we are now, and particularly this year, with the great pressure on our Limited revenues for priorities, especially, Mr.

Speaker, with regard in the school system to the decision which we have to look at whether we expand kindergarten programs or not. It seems to me it is right within the public school system which forces us to make a decision on priorities -- kindergarten or driver education? I respectfully draw to the attention of members of the House that good arguments can be advanced on both sides, but I note -- and recommend that other Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 238

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-33 members note that across Canada -- if we were to compare the acceptance of the two types of programs, the kindergarten program is much more widely adopted, and much more widespread than is the driver education program. Mr. Chairman, I would like to conclude simply by reiterating my point that I feel strongly that all applicants for drivers' licenses in the Province of Alberta should be required to demonstrate some ability in driving skills and some familiarity with the rules of the road.

I submit that this can be accomplished — and accomplished better -- by imposing certain requirements at the time of application for licence, leaving to the individual the decision and the choice of what kind of alternative learning situation he prefers to seek out and to follow. Thank you. MR. DRAIN: Mr. Speaker, now may I join in this debate? And may I speak without raising the hackles of the hon. members on the other side?

I wish to congratulate the hon. member for Bonnyville for bringing this very valuable resolution before this legislature, and also to congratulate the hon. member for Athabasca in seconding this motion. Certainly the hon. member for Drumheller has added greatly to our fund "of knowledge on this all-important subject. Regretfully, at one time I had the data on a study on driver education developed by a research team covering areas such as the States of Illinois and Michigan where this was made compulsory for all young people.

The net result and the heading of this particular article, if you can call it that, or study, was: Does Driver Education Pay for the Taxpayer? They went on to prove by statistics that this was not basically so. However, the fact that this particular exercise was conducted in a different jurisdiction may well mean that it could not presently apply here.

I'm sure that all parents who have had children have been ultimately faced with the situation with dear old Dad: "Can I have your car Friday night?" We certainly shudder, and many mothers lie awake at nights thinking about where Johnny or Mary or Jean is, or whoever the case may be. I think this is probably one of the biggest worries that parents are faced with. This is something they have to face and there is no way that it can be avoided. It was also mentioned by the hon. member for Bonnyville the rather harsh position taken by the insurance industry in the province of Alberta in relation to our young drivers.

I had this experience, Mr. Speaker, in relation to one of my youngest sons, the last one and incidentally, he did take driver training -- in discovering the rates that he had to pay in relation to the rate prevailing in Saskatchewan and Manitoba. The quoted rate in Alberta with driver training, 18 years old, $35,000 PL and PD, $250 deductible, Agent 1 - $921; Agent 2 - $400; Agent 3 - $365. I thought, this is a lot of money on a $2500 vehicle.

With this in mind and to satisfy my curiosity, I wrote to the Saskatchewan Insurance Commission and their quotation for the same coverage, plus a couple of extra fringes, was $72. This was rather startling to me, so I then wrote to the Manitoba Commission; their rate for an 18 year old driver is $100. Now I'm not saying, Mr. Speaker, in this particular instance, that the insurance industry is exploiting the young drivers in Alberta. There may be a whole field of different risks that are taken into consideration.

Possibly the insurance business is so divided among so many different companies that they cannot functionally meet the competition of a state organization, or it may well be that in these two different jurisdictions the insurance is being subsidized. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 239

6-34 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972 Getting back to the format of this motion, Mr. Speaker, I think it can be agreed that some people have difficulty in mastering the operation of any machinery. Because of my background I am very well aware of this. And surprisingly, and there are studies to prove it, the more intelligent a person is, the less ability they have in concentrating on the processes of driving. Some people have, as already indicated in this debate, aggressive natures.

Some people have psychological aggressive tendencies and basically this is one tendency which is brought out by people who drink and drive. Possibly at some point in time the privilege of driving will also have to contain an analysis as to the adaptability of the person's character.

Also, there are certain more fortunate young people raised in a rural background where at 11 or 12 years old they are driving their fathers' trucks back and forth through the fields hauling grain, so by the time they do reach high school, they have had quite a number of years of experience, and I would question, other than the theory aspect of driving, whether this particular training would be of any great value other than allowing them to properly show their friends how well they could achieve in this particular course.

It has been mentioned that the option belongs to local government to determine how this can be done now, and also the financial implications have been indicated. Then finally, Mr. Speaker, we do still have a screening process; we do have the driver examiners. And I have known of people who have gone for their driving test and have been faulted and sent back to learn some more, gone back to their driving instructors and taken more lessons. So then possibly the approach would be to make the driver examination process a little bit stiffer. However, Mr.

Speaker, I do appreciate the intent of the motion, I propose to support it and I thank the hon. members for bringing this before the Legislature. Mr. Speaker, on a point of order I crave your indulgence. I wish to read into Hansard, Mr. Speaker, the

interpretation of the word 'now' as indicated in Webster's Dictionary. MR. FARRAN: May I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. member from Pincher Creek-Crowsnest may have the indulgence of this House to read this quotation, provided he also reads Webster's quotation for "never". MR. SPEAKER: I don't know of any rule which permits reading in portions of dictionaries into the record, but if the House wishes to grant its indulgence, and I think it would be that, perhaps we could permit the member to read it in. MR. DRAIN: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate your courtesy and I extend my thanks.

"Now" — you know its awful fine print -- MR. HYNDMAN: If you or the other side are concerned about costs, I think the cost of Hansard eventually will go up about $5,000 as a result of these insertions. MR. SPEAKER: Is the hon. minister objecting to the reading in of the definition? Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 240

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-15 MR. DRAIN: "Now" means "at the present time or moment, in the time immediately before the present, at the time immediately to follow forthwith". Thank you Mr. Speaker. MR. FARRAN: May I borrow that Webster Dictionary to read the definition of "never"? MR. SPEAKER: I think we should proceed, and perhaps the hon. member from Calgary North Hill could make some private arrangements with the hon. member from Pincher-Crowsnest. MR. DIXON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to adjourn the debate. MR. SPEAKER: Has the hon. Member leave to adjourn the debate? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed.

Provincial Power Grid MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the hon. Member for Lloydminister the following resolution: "Be it resolved that the Alberta Government investigate the feasibility of a provincially owned and controlled electric power grid system." Mr. Speaker, the cost of providing electric power to many parts of Alberta has risen considerably over the past few years, and there is every indication that it will continue to rise in the future. In that area, I suggest the government has. certain obligations and certain responsibilities that should be met.

The idea of a provincially owned power grid system, of course, is not new. However, I would like at this time, Mr. Speaker, to discuss a number of reasons why we as a government should study the feasibility of such a move. First of all, I think it should be understood, on the basis on which our free enterprise works, there should be a competitive atmosphere in any industry, and particularly in an industry such as the utility industry.

However, on the other hand, the very nature of the business wherein you are required to supply a product that costs large sums of money to transport demands that a power company must have a protected area to operate in. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, I think we all appreciate that fact.

Now the only means that we have had here in Alberta of ensuring that the consumer will be protected from undue increases in price, or perhaps a quality of service which does not come up to the standard that we expect, is the requirement that those companies who are involved in the distribution and supply of electric power in Alberta must make application to the Public Utilities Board and must lay out all their reasons and so on before they are granted any changes in rates. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 241

6-36 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972 With due respect, Mr. Speaker, to the members of the Public Utilities Board, and I would like to talk a little later about that, it is my belief that they have not in the past had an opportunity with limited people and staff to get all the facts and figures and technical assistance to determine whether or not, in fact, changes in rates, kilowatt hour rates, are necessary or needed at all. It appears to me, Mr. Speaker, that one of the most effective ways to make sure that power rates are competitive would be to have a provincially owned power grid system.

In that regard I'm not suggesting, as many members in this House may have thought by reading the Order Paper, that we should go into the business of public ownership of utilities in Alberta. I think that that is about the easiest thing you can say when it comes to the question of power, but it's certainly not the kind of thing you can say with any responsibility until you've had an opportunity to do just what I have suggested here, and that is study the whole question.

It appears to me that a private company, and we have a number of them in Alberta now, would and should be allowed to continue to manufacture power, and I'm only suggesting in this resolution that we should have a provincially owned grid system so that any town, city, rural electrification association, or what have you, might from time to time buy power through that grid system on a contract basis from any one of a number of companies that perhaps might be operating in the province.

As a matter of fact in some areas of the province it might be possible that we would buy through that grid system from outside the province, and I suggest that perhaps in the northwestern part of the province we might buy from the Bennett Dam, if that were the most available and cheapest sort of power.

I think that any arrangements that places like the City of Edmonton have where there is a municipal owned utility system which is operating to satisfaction, should certainly not be interfered with by government, but at the same time they should be given an opportunity to purchase power to bring into their city boundaries, on just such a system as I'm talking about, a provincially owned grid system.

As I mentioned before, this arrangement would allow the power companies to continue to manufacture power and certainly continue on a contract basis or otherwise in servicing of power distribution facilities in individual municipalities, rural electrification associations and so on. In addition to some of the obvious benefits of distributing power within the province, such a system would give us the ability to, perhaps, sell power outside the province.

When you look at the potential of the Province of Alberta and take into consideration our natural resources of coal, gas, and several other products that have a potential to produce electric power, certainly there is an area where, in future years, we may be looking to other parts of Canada to buy electric energy. Getting back to the original motion, Mr. Speaker, which is that we should have a feasibility study, I suggest that it would have to include a number of important areas.

First of all, I am sure all of the major power companies in this province would be most interested in helping and working together on this thing. There should be a study of existing grid lines within the province, together with an estimate of their value, and so on.

Now I know that some of the major power companies, and I presume all of them have very comprehsneive studies of their particular area in relation to the need from now until perhaps 1980, in relation to the areas in their servicing areas where they may develop new and potential sites for manufacturing power, but I think it's such an important area to this province that we ought to have all this information concerning the province from the southern border to the northern border gathered into one system where we can actually sit down and say: "This is what we need for the northern part or the southern part," and tie the whole thing in together.

I don't think Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 242

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-37 it's an area that can be left to designated regions of Alberta. I think we have to look at the entire region and I appreciate some of the work that has been done in that area, but I don't think, Mr. Speaker, that we have done nearly enough. I think in that connection representation should be received from all the major power consumers, the towns, cities, the REA, the industry itself, as well as the general public, with a view to determining what their feelings are with regard to the acceptance of such a system.

A look at the alternatives available in such a system -- some people have suggested to me that the province is in the business of buying and supplying power and I suggest to you that this is not necessarily so; there are several alternatives. The province could buy power and transport it for resale, or they could simply charge a commission for providing a transportation facility. Perhaps there might be, in the course of this debate, some other members who have some other ideas on that subject. Finally, Mr.

Speaker, there would have to be, most assuredly in any such study of this nature, a termination of the method and cost of financing, having regard to the effect such a move might have on the provincial treasury here in Alberta. I haven't, Mr. Speaker, gotten into some of the more specific problem areas in Alberta with regard to power. I would just like to mention, however, that we have a problem which has been growing a little worse year by year in rural Alberta; that is the problem of providing rural electrification into the farms, and the costs as they have risen are becoming somewhat prohibitive.

I am not suggesting that they're any larger than they should be. Wages have gone up; materials have gone up, and so on, but certainly I think we as a government have a responsibility at this point in time to have a look at that situation and see if there isn't some alternative method to financing or paying for the cost of developing new areas in this province.

At the same time I'd like to refer to situations in the resource areas of this province where every single individual in this province is benefitting from the dollars that flow in from oil revenues and coal revenues, low as they may be, and other kinds of resource revenues.

Now I suggest to you that when power companies or government or anyone else is forced to go in and service an area like this with power that is producing resource revenue that benefits all of Alberta, then certainly the residents of all of Alberta in this provincial government have a challenge in that regard to insuring that the cost of supplying public utilities to that area is not borne by people in just a small part of the province.

I am referring to the fact that in the northern part of the province one utility company has done some very extensive development in such areas as Grande Cache, and Wabasca, and Rainbow Lake and I just have to think, Mr. Speaker, that in order for them to get a return on the kind of investment that they've placed in that area, they must increase rates to the customers they serve.

Those customers represent probably 20- 25 per cent of all the people of Alberta, maybe even less than that, and yet the benefits that are incurred by that situation of developing natural resources go to each and every one of us and I think we should all share in paying for it. Mr. Speaker, I have been very brief, I have outlined some of the advantages that might be obtained from a provincially owned grid system, together with some of the areas that I suggest should be included in a feasibility study of that nature.

Without any doubt, there are many other advantages and very likely some disadvantages that I have not discussed. It is not the intention, Mr. Speaker, to rush headlong into such a system as I suggested, but only to initiate action that will provide information that in my view, the government of this province and this Legislative Assembly should have had many Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 243

6-38 ALBERTA HANSARD March 9th 1972 years ago. I urge you to consider this resolution favourably so that the Minister of Telephones and Utilities might proceed in an area that affects the life and well-being of every Albertan. MR. J. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to second the resolution as presented by ray friend and colleague, Mr. Moore the hon. Member for Smoky River. I'd bring to your attention Mr. Speaker, the fact that of all the Canadian provinces, Alberta's growth in electrical consumption is the most vigorous. In the last decade, Mr. Speaker, Alberta's consumption of electrical power has tripled,

whereas that in the rest of Canada has not quite doubled. It also has been estimated, Mr. Speaker, that by the end of this century, Alberta's annual consumption of electrical power will increase another sevenfold. And I might add Mr. Speaker, that at this time the electricity supply to the public in Alberta is handled by three private electric utilities, about 13 municipal electric utilities, and nearly 400 rural electrification associations. Now, Mr.

Speaker, all of these utilities distribute and sell electricity to the public within their franchise areas, but only the few larger utilities generate power for their own use and for the use of smaller utilities. It is generally felt that the present structure of Alberta's utility industry is inadequate to meet the province's long range requirements. It lacks the basis from which to plan and finance development in a comprehensive manner. And Mr.

Speaker, we feel that in Alberta it is essential that electricity be made available at a uniform rate reflecting the lowest possible cost to residential, commercial and industrial customers throughout the province. This is of particular importance when we are thinking of rural industrialization and settlement in some of the remote areas of the province. A strong province-wide power transmission network would serve to coordinate the existing power supplies but would also serve in the maximum development of hydro-electric power, in particular with reference to the Peace and the Slave rivers. Mr.

Speaker, this is of a particular importance when one considers that the environmental restrictions on the siting and the cost of fossil field thermal generation stations is a major factor at this time. Mr. Speaker, there is also the possibility of opportunities for the establishment of electrical interconnections with neighbouring states and provinces to export or import power as may be advantageous to the people of Alberta. It is also most important that this capital extensive industry is financed at the lowest possible rates. I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that when one considers the importance of this industry and its impact on the citizens of Alberta that sincere consideration to this resolution should be given at this time. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, in addressing myself to this resolution I want to say that, first of all, I don't think it goes far enough and I'll be commenting on that in a moment. But because it is at least a slight improvement, however slight, I am prepared to support it. I want to begin by saying that we discussed this very proposal ourselves in the party I led some ten years ago, at a provincial convention.

The proposal was made that a power grid, as suggested by the hon. member from Smoky River, would have many of the advantages that he cited, but our convention, in discussing it in very considerable detail for many of the reasons that I intend to give you Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 244

March 9th 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 6-39 now, turned down the proposal and once again reaffirmed the position of our party that we favour public power. This is a position, Mr. Speaker, which I think you are well aware of and the members of this assembly are well aware is held by the Organized Farm Movement of the province of Alberta, the position of Unifarm and the position of the National Farmer's Union. The proposal for public power is not new in Canada. We are the only province west of New Brunswick today that doesn't have public power.

Indeed, the Conservative province of Ontario introduced public power nearly 60 years ago. The neighbouring province of British Columbia in 1961 — one year after the hon. Premier of that province stated in no uncertain terms that he wouldn't take over the power companies -- proceede