LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 27 June, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. D. MALINOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I beg to present the Fifth Report of the Committee on Economic Devel opment. MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: Your Committee met on Thu rsday, June 27, 1985 at 10:00 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Buil ding. Mr. Mali nowski was appointed as Chairman.

Your Commi ttee considered the Report and Financial Sta tements of Flyer Industries Limited. Messrs. Hugh Jones, Chairman, and David Gardave, Chief Operating Officer provided such information as was desired by Members of the Committee in respect to the Report and business of Flyer Industries Limited. The fullest opportunity was accorded to all Members of the Committee to seek any information desired. Your Committee examined the Report and Financial Statements of Flyer Industries Limited for the year ended December 31, 1984 and adopted the same as presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. D.

MALINOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speake r. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Burrows, that the Report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Min isterial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... ORAL QUESTIONS Flyer Industries - continuing losses MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. My question is for the Acting Premier.

This morning in committee members were given the horrendous news that the government-owned bus manufacturing firm, Flyer Indus tries, has lost $18 million this past year. My question to the Acting Premier is: how long is the Government of Ma nito ba prepared to allow the hemorrhaging of public taxpayers' funds in losses incurred by this corporation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That question was responded to in committee this morning.

The government has ind icated that it is quite concerned about the serious and co ntinuing deterioration of Flyer Indus tries and has been working since last year in reviewing all of the operations in a comprehensive way with respect to Flyer Indus tries and has actively and aggressively looked for potential candidates for a merge or divestiture of Flyer Indu stries. lt was indicated in committee this morning, Mr.

Speaker, that we expect to have a conclusion to those discussions before the end of this summer, so that decisions made with respect to Flyer and its operations as it relates to divest iture hopefully will be made by or towards the end of this summer. Flyer Industries contemplated options MR. G. FILMON: To· the Acting Premier, what other options are being contemplated other than divestiture? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Again, Mr. Speaker, we have dealt with that issue this morning.

The government's intention is to bring about an end to the losses, to the drain on the public purse that's caused by the deteriorating situation with respect to Flyer Ind ustries, which is of some long-standing. 1t is our intention to do whatever is possible to bring that to a conclusion and to do also whatever is possible to try to maintain those jobs, or a good number of those jobs, in that important industry in the Province of Manitoba. So that is why we are aggressively looking at options as they relate to other forms of ownership and continuation of Ryer Industries. MR. G.

FILMON: My question for the Acting Premier is: other than divestiture, what other options are being considered by the government? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker , until we fully explore those options, it would be premature for us to look at any other options with respect to Flyer, except to say that we are not going to allow the continuation of the losses that have been occurring to date. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister indicating that divestiture is the prime option; that is, selling the operation to the private sector? And are there any caveats placed on that sale or those options? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The primary objective, as I stated and I'll restate, Mr. Speaker, is to bring to an end the losses and the drain on the public purse that has occurred because of the long-standing problems with 3388

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 Flyer Industries; and also to do whatever is possible to maintain a good number of those jobs and that industry in the Province of Manitoba. To that end we have determined that the best course would be some form of divestiture or merger for Flyer Industries and we will put whatever conditions are necessary to provide those protections to the greatest extent possible, Mr. Speaker. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the buses that Flyer is selling are being subsidized in excess of $90,000 per bus and that many of those buses are being sold outside of this province, does the Acting Premier not believe that the funds could be better used here in Manitoba for programs of this government and for the needs of the people of Manitoba? Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Acting Premier has made a decision to close the School of Psychiatric Nursing in Portage for lack of funds, and yet at the same time is prepared to subsidize over $90,000 per bus for buses that are being sold outside this province, is there not a better way to use those funds in Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I think the problems identified by the Leader of the Opposition are different.

The overall goal is, of course, to manage funds in the best interests of Manitobans and to address the particular issues in each situation. When we are dealing with bus manufacture, we're looking at industrial benefit and job maintenance and so on. When we're looking at public policy in terms of training of staff and care of the mentally retarded, there are other factors which we must take into consideration in providing a service in the most cost efficient and program effective way possible. I think details of both sets of decisions have been given in very extensive form in either committee or in Estimates. MR.

G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, is the Acting Premier saying that the best way to manage the funds of the people of Manitoba is to close down the School of Psychiatric Nursing at Portage la Prairie in favour of subsidizing buses to be sold to Toronto? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the factors involved in designing the most effective and efficient service to a group of Manitoba citiz ens, the mentally retarded, are considerably different than the factors that one must consider in running an industrial enterprise.

I think the common factors are to look for the best interests of Manitobans and, as I say, those are being identified and a full information policy discussion is being given in the Economic Development Committee in the case of Flyer, and In my departmental Estimates Committee in the case of the decision with the Psychiatric Nursing School at Portage la Prairie. Genstar, re cement - actual tenders MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Acting Minister of Energy and Mines.

The other day on June 26th the news release from Manitoba Hydro indicated that a $22 million award was made for the supply of cement to Genstar, and the same release indicates that this was done, so despite the fact that the tender was some $700,000 higher than the next lowest tender, namely, Canada Cement, I wonder if the Acting Minister can indicate, is he prepared or is the government prepared, to show us the actual figures and table the actual tenders of the two lowest companies. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The practice has been in the past with respect to Manitoba Hydro and their tender documents not to make them public, as I understand. The situation with respect to these two tenders is that Manitoba Hydro has been able to get a good price on that tender as they did on the general civil tender that is bringing about a significant decrease in the estimated costs for the projects, and at the same time ensuring that there is significant, in fact, greater Manitoba content than has ever been the case with respect to those kind of projects in the past.

I think the important consideration with respect to the cement contract, even though there is a marginal additional cost as a result of awarding the tender to a Manitoba-based company, the fact of the matter is, as has been stated by that company, is that it's going to ensure ongoing operation of their plant in Manitoba, significant capital improvement to their plant, and long­ term job employment for Manitobans as a result of that tender being awarded to a Manitoba company. MR. H. ENNS: I suppose for a government that tolerates a loss of $18 million at Flyer, what's $700,000, Mr. Speaker?

But I can read the press releases well. I asked the Minister and I ask him again, specifically, I want to ascertain that the press release says that although the Genstar bid was 3.4 percent or about $700,000 higher, I'm asking for some documentation that the bid was indeed $700,000 higher and not more? Can he supply us with that information? I appreciate the past practice of Manitoba Hydro, but it's because of this unusual step - and I'm not arguing with him - that we want verification of the $700,000.00. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I'll relay the member's concern to the Minister in terms of the specific figure, but I would suggest to him that the cost of not awarding that contract to a Manitoba-based company would have been significantly higher in terms of lost income and lost revenue to people of the Province of Manitoba. So I think that contract is resulting, in effect, greater benefits to Manitobans, both in the immediate term and in the long term, because that operation will be a viable Manitoba business.

I don't know if he is suggesting that we ought to bring about the closure of that industry but this government feels that it's important to ensure the long-term viability of that Manitoba enterprise. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I simply want to indicate to the Minister and to members that the other cement 3389

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 company that we are talking about is a long-standing Manitoba firm that used to operate at Fort Whyte, and information made available to me from Canada Cement indicates in their tender that had they been given the award they would have reopened the plant at Fort Whyte. My question simply to the Minister is: was that not considered, Mr. Speaker, in the awarding of the contract? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Various factors were taken into account in terms of the awarding of that contract, obvious costs to Manitoba Hydro and also the impact on the Manitoba economy by awarding of that contract; and on balance it was felt that the situation was, the decision was made that there would be significant and more permanent and more substantial benefits to Manitoba by the awarding of the contract in the fashion that it was done. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I am prepared to table the final offer by Canada Cement which would seem to indicate that the difference in price is not $700,000, but $2.312 million or something close to 11 percent and 12 percent and my question to the Honourable Minister is: what yardstick is this government using in showing preferential treatment as between two Manitoba- based firms? I would ask that Minister, what is the yardstick this government is going to use and who's going to pay for it? Is it the Manitoba Jobs Fund? Internatio nal Trade Commission - meeting re Man itoba Hog Producers MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste.

Rose. MR. A. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Yesterday, he was in South Dakota meeting with Governor Janklow on the ban on imports of Manitoba hogs. I would ask the Minister if he can give us a report on what transpired with his meeting. Is there any hope that the ban will be lifted as a result of the meeting? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I wish to advise the honourable member that when we attempted the meeting with Governor Janklow, it had taken us a number of weeks in order to get our meeting with him and South Dakota was the first state to issue the ban. We were quite concerned that we may be going to South Dakota just to face another block, since they were the ones that moved init ially.

But I want to say to the honourable member that we were actually pleased by the results of our meeting because, rather than facing an outright ban, the Governor of South Dakota is prepared and is in the process of putting in measures similar to that in the State of Iowa, in that there is a procedure of certification which would allow Manitoba hogs to flow on the conditio n that they have not been injected by chloramphenicol.

The only area that we were not able to confirm - and we will be having discussions with the Manitoba Hog Producers' Marketing Board and officials south of the border - what the time frame is between the order taking and the approval for the shipment of hogs to go to South Dakota. That has not been worked out as yet. So we're very pleased, Mr. Speaker, with this result, because that follows upon our earlier visit to Iowa and Nebraska in that some hogs have been shipped to the State of Iowa.

So our actions there, by the ban on chloramphenicol, the meetings that we've had, hogs now going to Iowa and, of course, a greater possibility of hogs going to South Dakota, and those results are certainly very encouraging, Sir. MR. A. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, I would ask a further supplementary to the Minister of Agriculture. Was there any discussion on the question of chloramphenicol, the use of that, in the province? Were there any discussions in that regard? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, yes, there was a lot of discussion on chloramphenicol and, of course, the Governor admitted that our actions in Manitoba of moving very quickly on the ban kind of put his whole action in jeopardy, because he did admit to us during our discussions that really the ban was a use of a tactic to try and send a message to Washington opposing the monetary policies of his own President, and Governor Janklow happens to be a Republican, as well as, the lack of agricultural policies south of the border. But, Mr.

Speaker, there was one thing that the Governor relayed to us which we found astounding, and that was that the Canadian Government was advised in 1984 that there would be difficulty with chloramphenicol, that the United States would be imposing certain stringent requirements last year. Mr. Speaker, we have now confirmed this morning that, in fact, was the case, and that the United States did advise the Canadian Government that there would be difficulty in respect to livestock being shipped south of the border as a result of their move to ban chloramphenicol. Mr.

Speaker, there has been a total absence of national action on this area by hiding the issue of chloramphenicol after being advised last year, in 1984, that action should be taken on this side. Instead, Mr. Speaker, we have had no action at the federal level. MR. A. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, a third supplement ary. As a result of a meeting with Governor Janklow, our Minister, our Leader questioning the Federal Minister of Agriculture about this problem, will the . . . - (inaudible) - MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I am not able to hear what the honourable member is saying. The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A.

ADAM: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry that the microphones were not operating, but I am surprised to hear the Member for Morris say that we are lucky that the microphones were not on so they couldn't hear my question, but my question, I believe, is very serious and important in view of what has happened with the hog situation. My question was to the Minister of Agriculture. 3390

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 Will the Premier or the Minister be arranging or requesting a meeting with the Federal Minister of Agriculture, Mr. John Wise, to discuss this problem further in view of the meeting that took place in South Dakota yesterday? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the Premier left for Ottawa last evening, and when we had confirmed this morning that, in fact, Ottawa was aware in 1984 of the fact that there would be problems with chloramphenicol, the Premier has asked for a meeting with the Minister of Agriculture, Mr.

John Wise, in order to clarify this situation, as well as get some clarification on the earlier suggestions that farmers of Manitoba should sue the U.S. authorities after, or even giving that advice, and subsequently issuing a Department of Health bulletin indicating that there were no tests that could, in fact, disprove that chloramphenicol was not in the drugs, weakening very seriously the position of the case that we had been making to the U.S. officials. So the Premier is attempting to arrange a meeting with the Minister of Agriculture. Flami ngo Park - Govern ment partner in MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Urban Affairs, and ask him whether he can confirm again that the Provincial Government is a one-third partner in the Flamingo Park at Carlton and Portage, in regard to a $400,000 or $500,000 investment to construct that park. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, the three levels of government are shareholders and, as you know, there has been a Portage North Corporation that was formed.

They have a mandate to make these decisions, and they're the ones that accept the responsibilities for the development of North Portage. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister also indicate what the total cost of that park is? There must be - and I ask him whether he can confirm that the $400,000 to $500,000 figure is only maybe 10 percent of the final cost - is there also a several million dollar expropriation cost that has not been widely discussed? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speak er, that same question was asked by the same member a few weeks ago and I gave the answer, what could be answered, and the explanation why I couldn't get the information on the expropriation costs because that wasn't finished. There was still negotiating going on. I gave that answer to the same question . MR. R. DOERN: No. HON. L. DESJARDINS: . . . all right, I'll find it. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would simply say to the Minister I did not raise the question of additional expropriation costs. 3391 I want to ask the Minister whether he can confirm, that rather than a figure of $500,000 with a component of $400,000 by the three levels of government, can he confirm that some $2.5 million has already been spent or committed to date in regard to that small, somewhat ugly park, and there may be a maximum amount spent on that park which would reach as high as $5 million, which I think would be somewhat shocking to the taxpayers of this province and this city? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: As I say, I gave the answer. As far as the comment of my honourable friend, it makes a good companion for the billy across the street. MR. R. DOERN: Well that didn't cost $5 million, fellow. Inte rnational Trade Commission - assuran ces at meeting MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Speaker, it's obvious by the Minister of Agriculture's address and answer to the question today, plus the answer given by the Premier to the media last night when he came off the plane, that very little was accomplished in the meeting yesterday in South Dakota, other than some agreement with respect to monetary policy in the United States. I would ask the Minister, what specific assurances did he receive from the Governor that Manitoba pork would be allowed into that state by whatever time frame that he wants to give us?

And furthermore, what specific assurances was he given that Canadian beef, Manitoba beef would also be allowed entry? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that South Dakota was the state initiating the ban. We went there not at all convinced that we would be able to change any of their position, and that's what I prefaced my answer with. We were certainly not aware.

Governor Janklow has been clearly the outspoken governor on this issue, and has used this issue, and he admitted to us that it's an issue that he is using Canada in a way to try and get his message to Washington. He's been using that as a trade issue and not as a health issue, even though he has put it forward as a health issue, Mr. Speaker. He did admit that. Mr. Speaker, they have put into place and they are putting into place a procedure similar to that in the State of Iowa, a certification process. As I indicated to the Honourable Member for Ste.

Rose, the one question that is not clear in that certification process is the time tag that will ensue in that process to allow Manitoba hogs to flow. If there is no time tag and the system can be worked out, Mr. Speaker, the same process should be in place as it with Iowa. Hogs have flowed to Iowa since our meeting, Mr. Speaker, and we're very pleased that we should have accomplished that. But, Mr. Speaker, as well, the Governor of South Dakota indicated very clearly to our Premier that we

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 should be kicking our own Federal Government and telling them to get off their duff - and I'm quoting the Governor - to get down to Washington and make their views known so that this issue could be resolved at the higher plane; and that Shamrock Conference that our Prime Minister and the President of the United States joined hands in and said that the borders will be open, will in fact materialize, Sir. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, the government is obviously patently unaware that there are greater political forces at work on this whole issue.

The main problem is the consideration of stabilization versus subsidy . I ask the Minister , what direct representation the Government of Manitoba is going to be making to the Trade and Commerce Committee of Congress July 22nd in concert with the Federal Government to see removed the restrictions that are in place so as to allow the free entry of Canadian beef and pork into the U.S. market? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speak er, I am glad that the Honourable Member for Morris raised the question of stabilization but of greater concern to members on that side, because it's their Federal Government. their colleagl!eS in Ottawa who have pushed through an amendment to allow for top loading, after making statements that top loading would not be allowed and, in fact, criticizing provincial programs as being part of the cause of the ban and the extra duties in the United States. Talk about support and flip-flopping at the federal level on stabilization. Mr.

Speaker. we attempted to attend the International Trade Commission hearings but because the province was not a signatory to the brief that was presented to them by the Canadian Pork Council, even though we assisted them since 19 84 in preparing those submissions, we by the very nature of their process were not allowed to appear before that Commission. Following that denial, Mr.

Speaker, this government asked the Centre of Legislative Exchange to set up a high-level meeting between elected representatives of this country and elected representatives from the United States to continue these types of face-to-face talks that we've had the with governors of the United States, to try and get at the root of the problem, because this issue cuts two ways. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Before there are any further questions on this topic, I'm having some difficulty in understanding why foreign trade is within the administrative jurisdiction of this government.

Deer Lodg e Hospital - conting ency plans MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Health. My question to the Minister: is he satisfied that contingency plans at Deer Lodge Hospital are sufficient to ensure patient care in the event of a strike later on this week? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I've been in contact with the administrator and the officials of the Manitoba Health Services Commission and I expect a report.

I'm not fully satisfied; there are questions that I posed that would have to be asked and I expect to hear later on this afternoon. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, it's a little difficult to know whether the Minister can answer this, but I would pose the question to him, whether contingency plans include not only the bringing in of additional casual help at Deer Lodge but, in addition, the utilization of any spare bed capacity, if any exists in the hospitals in the City of Winnipeg? Do the contingency plans include the utilization of any space in hospitals in Winnipeg as well for the patients? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: The ideal thing probably would be a combination of both; certain patients should not be moved and others can be more readily moved and this is the information that I'm expecting. Deer Lodge Hospital - status of pharmacy personnel MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speak er, could the Minister indicate whether the pharmacy staff at Deer Lodge are part of the Public Service Alliance Agreement or whether they are outside of that agreement? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I'm not going to guess at that; I'll have to take that as notic e. I'm not too sure. Versatile Manufacturing - poss ible shutdo wn MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct a question to the Minister of Labour and would ask him if his department has received notification from Versatile Farm Equipment that they will be closing down their production facility for some five months? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, I recall receiving correspondence from Versatile indicating that there would be some layoff of staff because of a reduction in sales of farm equipment, and that of course is consistent with the difficulty that farm equipment dealers and manufacturers have experienced for many years in Western Canada because of the inadequate initiatives on the part of successive Federal Governments, both Liberal and Conservative, that have failed the farm industry in Western Canada. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, did the same Minister, since Versatile is a major employer in this province and employees many people, would he care to clarify his statement that some employees were laid off? Could he tell us how many employees will be laid off? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I will have to take as notice the question as to the specific numbers. 3392

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 Because as the ho nour able memb ers kn ow, the legislation provides for notice where there is a un it of emp loyees going to be laid off in excess of fifty. I don't know, I don't recall the numbers, if they give specific numbers in the letter; I will take that part of the question as notice. But I want to put on record my concern, that we have problems in Western Canada in marketing western Canadian agricultur al products. Opponents, I say opponents, Mr. Speake r, th ose members in th e opposition, pay only lip service to the products of farmers in this country.

They are apologists for the Federal Government that has got . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The answer to a question should not be a speech. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was trying to solicit some information, Mr. Speak er, from this Min ister and obviously he has a way of performing like some rodent when trapped in a corner.

I want to ask that since this is a major employer in this province, is he trying to tell us that he doesn't know if there's going to be 6, 7, 8 or 800 people laid off at Versatile, that he has not contacted Versatile to talk about this matter? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The knowledge of a Minister is not a suitable topic for questions. Does the honourable member have a question seeking information? The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Spea ker, could the Mini ster inform the House as to how many people are going to be laid off at Versatile for the five- or six-month period where they will be closing down their whole assembly line? HON. A. MACKLING: Obvious ly, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member does not listen when answers are given. I ind icated that I would take as notice the specifics of the numbers - (Interjection) - because I don't . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. A. MACKLING: The Honourable Member for Pembina continue s to chatter from his seat , Mr.

Spea ker, and I want it to be put on record that he is a failure when it comes to protect ing the farmers and the farm interests in his constitu ency. Mr. Speaker, I do not have the precise figures before me. I'v e taken as notice; I will give the honou rable member those answers. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! Genstar, re cement - actual tenders MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Min ister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Earlier in question period, I had taken some notices with regard to the awarding of tender contracts for Manitoba Hydro and the cement contract.

There was a document tabled by the Member for Lakeside with respect to one of the tenderers and he had tabled the document from Canada Cement that showed a tender price of 19,956 ,000, th at in clud es cement and transportation but does not include sales tax; a similar fi gur e for Genstar which show a figur e of $20,70 1 ,000.00. When one adds the sales tax of 6 percent to both of those, the tenders as submit ted were for Canada Cement $2 1,587 ,406, for Genstar $22,3 12, 01 2, which is a dif ference of $724,606, which is approximately the $700,000 that was previously reported. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, my further question to the Min ister on that matter is can he inform the members of the House and the people of Manitoba whether that additional amount of $720,000 will be absorbed by the ratepayers of Manitoba Hydro or whether that will come out of the Jobs Fund and the taxpayers of Manitoba? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The awarding of that contract was made by the Manitoba Hydro Board and will be as part of the total costs of the project. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, earlier this Session in commit tee on Manitoba Hydro, the Public Utilities Committee, the chairman of Manitoba Hydro said that where ther e was a dif ferential absorbed as a result of taking a preference for local input, local production, that extra amount of money would come out of the Jobs Fund, not out of the ratepayers of Manitoba Hydro. Why has that now been changed? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Is the mem ber suggest ing where the dif ference is as close as it was in this case and the benefits to Manitoba by the awarding of the contract by Manitoba Hydro to a company that is going to ensure much more significant benefits to the Province of Manitoba both in the short term and and the long term, is he suggesting that Manitoba Hydro should, as a result of th e aw arding of th e con tract un de r these circu mstances, cause a plant in Manitoba to close and throw Manitobans out of work for the short and long term? Is that what he is suggest ing? MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I'm not asking for any plant to be shut down. I'm asking the Min ister whether or not they have changed their policy whereby, when they take other than a low bid and there are additional costs for doing so, whether that will be picked up by the Jobs Fund or whether that will be added to the ratepayers of Manitoba Hydro, because that was the in formation that was gi ven at commit tee by the Chairman of Manitoba Hydro, and it appears as though they have now changed their· position. HON. E. KOSTYRA: As the member is aware, Manitoba Hydro does look at all factors once th ey are faced with 3393

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 a decision with respect to tender whose price and whose quality includes delivery and does include the impact that the awarding of those contracts will have on the economy of the province. lt was something that has been a practice for some time with Manitoba Hydro, and one that they are ensuring is going to work for the benefit of Manitobans. So I think that Manitoba Hydro has operated properly in this case to ensure that they do get a good price and do ensure that there are maximum benefits to the people of the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY SECOND READING BILL 70 - THE AGRICULTURAL CREDIT CORPORATION ACT; LA

LOI SUR LA SOCIETE DU CREDIT AGRICOLE HON. L. DESJARDINS presented, by leave, on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture, Bill No. 70,

An Act to amend The Agricultural Credit Corporation Act; Loi modifiant la

loi sur la societe du credit agricole, for Second Reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: The bill is standing in my name as adjourned at the unilingual stage of the bill, and I would just ask leave to have that matter stand that way on the Order Paper. MR. SPEAKER: The bill will then stand in the name of the Honourable Member for Lakeside. The Honourable Acting Government House Leader. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, before calling the Supply Motion, I understand there might be an inclination to dispense with the Private Members' Hour. MR.

SPEAKER: Is there leave to dispense with Private Members' Hour today? Leave has been granted. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Education; and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Community Services. CONCURRENT COMMITT EES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - COMMUNIT Y SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santoa: Committee, please come to order . We are on Item No. 3.(d)

(3) Programs: Financial Assistance; 3.(d)

(4) External Agencies - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, yesterday the Member for Kirkfield Park was asking some questions on the Manitoba Developmental Centre, and it was agreed that we were going to revert back to that particular item once that information was available. I wonder, could we clean up (

c) before we proceed with Financial Assistance. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, we had expected to be able to hand out that information right at the beginning. There is a slight delay In our staff arriving, the ones that have the material. So if we could proceed and then revert when they arrive, I will deal with it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that agreed? (Agreed) MR. A. BROWN: Okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: Agreed. The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, I had a few questions about the residents at home in the

section that we are dealing with, Programs, I guess it is. How is it working for the residents at home? What I am thinking of are the older people that have a mental disability. What is happening with them as their parents get older and their families get older? I know that's a worry always for families. What happens there? Is there any movement to try and work these residents, or these people, I should say, into a group home setting or just what happens with these people? HON. M.

SMITH: In the Welcome Home Program we are identifying a virtually matching number of people at risk in the communi ty, and the new thrusts in the variety of residential settings and day activity have not exactly equal numbers region by region, but overall equal numbers of people coming from the at-risk group in the community and from the institutions. In the past we never had a real inventory of all the people at risk. We had, I guess, a listing of people who had contacted mental retardation workers in the communi ty, but we didn't have a more comprehensive list.

Now we are coming closer to having a complete listing of people living at home, at risk of institutionalization, and in need of respite care, or whatev er, and the planning has put increasing resources into helping their families keep them at home in some instances; in others, setting up supervised apartment living or group homes. So, in a sense, we are attempting to deal with both that problem of the at-risk population and with the downsizing of the institutional care at the same time.

So it's an integrated approach and the identification of people is done at the local level, then the residential programming and the day activity is based on their needs. Now some of them maybe, if they get a 3394

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 respite care in the home, they can manage there for a little longer. But then they're under someone's scrutiny and should the time come that they'll need a residential placement in the commun ity, we would have advance knowledge and the planning could be in place. Our intention is to plan for both gr oups of people simult aneously. MRS. G. HAMMOND: About how many - and I'm thinking of the City of Winnipeg in particular - how many people are they putting in one group home? I am particularly thinking about zoning problems.

Are they gearing it more to four, or exactly how many people are they trying to put in a home? HON. M. SMITH: Our maximum is six. There might be a few exceptions, but that's what we're targeting at. The existing grouping has fours, fives, sixes and eights. Sorry, that's in Winnipeg. Throughout the province, there are some that go as high as 10, 12 and even 16. But we'v e found that since what we're aiming at is a more personalized home-like sett ing, that the smaller unit, given both the economics and the quality of care, that six is the optimum.

Now we state ther e are many that are scaled down, of course and supervised apartment living or foster placement could be for ones or twos or threes. MRS. G. HAMMOND: How many people are in the community in group home settings that need one-on­ one care? HON. M. SMITH: I don't have that level of detail. There are 340 cu rren tly thr oughout the province in the community residential sett ing, and those places are all somewhat differently stalled, depending on level of care. There's live levels of need. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is ther e care being given outside of the institutional care that is one-on-one? HON. M.

SMITH: There are a few, particularly childr en, who are cared for in a foster placement that's virtually a one-on-one arrangement. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I was specifically asking if there were any group homes where they would have one staff, say, for one person, if there are any homes in that category. HON. M. SMITH: The normal pattern would not be one-on-one but where we have a multipl y-handicapped child and or a behaviou rally difficult youngster, we can arrange - we have a flexible allocation of resource - we can arrange for a one-on-one support. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I wonder if the Minis ter could tell us who is looking for the group homes. Is it both the department and the people from the CMR who are sett ing up the homes? HON. M. SMITH: There is a variety of people and groups involved. In the Welcome Home Program, the local teams were to be inclusive of any advocacy groups or parent or communi ty groups who wish to be involved and that persists. Normally they would do more of the scouting around and the development work, but the staff are there to co-operate in the process. lt would vary a little from area to area, but there is a lot of local initiative. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I'm interested in knowing some of the costs that the government incurs with respect to the different sorts of care that are provided for handi capped people. Could the Minis ter give me the rates that are paid for individual people of the same classifica tion, paid to a private operator and to a community-ba sed resident? Could she giv e us some indication of how those costs compare to the institutional costs of where the handica pped people have been staying up to that point? HON. M.

SMITH: We did go through that the other day, the per diems in the institution, and I gave the averages and the range of per diems in the community residential care. Just to summarize quick ly, the five levels of care in the community residences, the average was $2 1; it is now $30.00. The range when it was 21 was from 15 up to almost 60. The new range goes from 23 up to 65, but that is just for the residential portion of the program.

There must also be a day activity planned and there is a respite service amount, behaviour management and some planning money and so on, so tha t these per diems are not strictly spe aking comparable to the institutional ones where the total package of this program was deliv ered. Here are the institutional ones again; we did go through this in some detail. Development centres around $67, Pelican Lake around $70, and St. Amant $101. 00. MR. B. RANSOM: If the details are on the record, that's fine, Mr. Chairman. HON. M.

SMITH: . . . side on the Welcome Home Project, but I guess it is a question of scarce resources and trying to phase them in. What we have had in the system has not been an equitable allocation of resource. We've had an almo st non-system where di fferent residences, di fferent in stitutions have over time negotia ted very di verse patterns of funding. What we are trying to achiev e ... - (Inaudible)- MR. B. RANSOM: . . . - (Inaudible) - when we have two separate commit tees running at the same time, it is not possible to be both places at the same time.

Can the Min ister tell me then whether the payment that would be made to a private individual is the same level of payment that would be made to a commun ity-based resident for the same level of care, the same level of person who is being looked after? HON. M. SMITH: Apart from the institutional rates, the payments for the service in the community, however you label a residence, is the same - five levels. There is a level of need; there is a basic per diem rate for all five levels.

All five levels receive a basic 23.63; there is a capital cost per diem allowance up to 7.72; and then there are additional rates that cover the additional 3395

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 costs of higher levels. There is another 8.39 for level 2; 16.78 for level 3; 25.17 for level 4; and 33.56 for level 5. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I say if the information is on the record, that's fine. I just wanted the Minister's assurance that the rates are the same then that are being paid to a private operator or to a community­ based operator. I gather that she is telling me they are the same. HON. M.

SMITH: The new rate structure is in place for any people being newly accommodated under the Welcome Home Program, both at-risk people from the community and people coming out of institutions. The groups that were out there before have another pattern, but by next year will have caught up and been phased into the same rate structure. lt was felt that we couldn't move the entire system up at quite in lock steps, so we are doing it in a two-step process, but there is no difference in this type of program between, as you call them, the private and the community based.

There is a difference though between them and the institutional care. MR. B. RANSOM: But presently, as of today, there is a difference then between what the private operator would get and what a community -based operator would get? HON. M. SMITH: No, the only difference is between the groups which were out there and functioning before the residences and new ones coming on stream. So, in a sense, the new ones are getting a little bit extra in the start-up stage. All of them are at the base level of 23.63, but their increments for higher levels of care won't catch up until next year.

There is no difference between the categories that you named. MR. B. RANSOM: How can the Minister justify paying a higher rate to the newly established ones, as opposed to the ones that were established before? HON. M. SMITH: Some recognition of the cost of starting up, and I guess a bit of an incentive side on the Welcome Home project, but where different residences, different institutions have, over time, negotiated very diverse patterns of funding.

And what we're trying to achieve is an equitable and rationalized system of support, but in the process of getting it from ari ad hoc system to a rational and equitable one we felt we had to phase the change. MR. B. RANSOM: The Minister made reference to her recognition of the startup costs, and I would like to ask the Minister then, specifically . . . HON. M. SMITH: I am trying to clari fy, I may not have got the history of the funding in this area quite separated. it's partly because there's been so many different categories and no overall planning.

Our new rates and program, we're giving priority to people living out of institutions and at risk people in the community who need a stabilized location. There were already out there a great many private boarding guest homes. Now these were for mentally retarded adults, people who were post-mentally ill, and elderly people, and they were under the social allowance regulation

schedule where people were getting around $350 to $500 per month. The Welcome Home Program is trying to co-ordinate the overall M.R. program and there was a fair bit of overlap with those other programs existing out there in the private guest homes. Again, their money allocation was based on the social allowance rates, not by our special support for mentally retarded. MR. B. RANSOM: What will it be based on now under the new programming? HON. M. SMITH: . . . process by which people are admitted to it and the rates will be based on the level of need of the individual, not on the home or the institution.

So, in a sense, the money will go with the needy person. MR. B. RANSOM: Well, will that be assigned so much to a categor y, to one of these five areas, or will it vary within the levels? HON. M. SMITH: The five levels. MR. B. RANSOM: And then it won't matter where that person is staying, then; whether they are in a community-based residence, or whether they are in a private guest home, as the Minister refers to the, they will be the same. · HON. M.

SMITH: Yes, the person who has been panelled and his need has been identified will, in a sense, have the dollars attached to them, and then they will be placed according to the choice of their immediate family and social worker. So it's not a guarantee to the proprietor of a home, it's an attachment of monies to the disabled person. There's the five levels of need. There's also a capital cost allowance that goes up to 772 which would depend on the situation of the individual home. IIR. B.

RANSOM: Well then who will negotiate on behalf of the resident as to how much of that money that goes with them, will be then paid to the operator of the residence, the private operator of the community­ based one. HON. M. SMITH: If the M.R. field worker, working with the family, wishes to be involved. The new rate structure is in place for any people being newly accommodated under the Welcome Home Program, both adverse people from the community and people coming out of institutions. The groups that were out there before have another pattern. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, earlier the Minister made reference to recognition of capital start-up costs. As the Minister knows I have a constituent who runs a home and who had invested some $40,000 in expanding the facilities from her operation and met the necessary physical requirements and she was very highly recommended by the workers In the field, but 3396

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 has not been able to get any additional residents to make use of that space generated by a $40,000 debt. Does the Minister plan to recognize that investment and either go along with the recommendations of the field workers, or will she consider it a compensation to my constituent for the fact that she made the $40,000 investment based upon assurances that she was given? HON. M. SMITH: That the particular person that we were talking about was proceeding prior to the Welcome Home Program and the local teams.

The staff have met with her and we intend to meet again to see if something can be worked out. I guess there's several factors here. I referred not to a capital investment allowance, but to a capital cost allowance which is in a sense, would be the person's share of the amortization cost that would go with their per diem, not a based capital amount initia lly.

In this case, one of the problems has been that the residential system has developed in a rather ad hoc way and there hasn't been integrated planning for the day activity of the person and what the new criteria which have been developed by the Central Planning Committee, the Provincial Committee and the Regional Committees has been that, before people are placed there must be a plan that is inclusive of both residential care and day activity, so that we don't run into some of the problems that were encountered in the early '70s when the post mentally ill or even the mentally ill whose condition was stabilized with drug treatment and so on, were moved out of institutions.

There was no planning for what they would do during the day or how they would be monitored, or how emergency situations would be dealt with and that sort of move out of institutions acquired a bit of a bad name in many areas. We don't want to have this particular thrust beset with those problems, so we are requiring a co-ordinated plan. Now, in this case, we have been dialoguing back and forth with this particular constituent, and we will continue to do so. She was in fact offered a day program which would use her whole facility but doesn't want it.

There is no program in that area that meets the needs of the people in the residence. Now we will continue to negotiate with that person. it's difficult trying to bring a particular case in - we can talk about that further at another time - but the policy, what we are trying to get to, is where there is coherent planning for the 24 hours and the whole range of needs of the individual before we place them. That's the residential care and their day activi ty, what we do if there is behavioural problems, respite care, transportation and so on. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, I have tried to mention this to the Minister a number of times privately and nothing seems to have moved; therefore, I am taking the opportunity to ask the Minister some questions here because this is a situation where my constituent appears to be caught in the middle of the government's changes in policy. She runs a home and provides care that has an extremely high recommendation from field workers, and I have personally been there myself and seen it.

She is in the situation where, because of the relatively small amount of money that is paid, that eight residents is not a large enough base to be able to generate the revenue to provide the programs that the Minister would like to see and that my constituent would be prepared to provide.

She's caught In a situation where she doesn't have enough money; she is not a big enough operation at the moment to be able to provide the kinds of things that the government would like; but yet, on the other hand, she had every reason to believe that she would receive the approval for additional residents and proceeded to make a $40,000 investment to expand her facilities.

I think that the Minister or the government has some obligation here either to grant her request for additional residents or to compensate her for the capital investment that she made in good faith based upon what she was told by people in the government, both people who are responsible for assessing the physical quality and by the field care workers. HON. M. SMITH: We have in fact had staff meet with her and follow through after the member raised the issue with me and have in fact made an offer.

Now, I guess when a policy shift is going on there is always going to be people who in a sense may find that they straddle what were the old rules and what are the new rules. The reason we got started on the whole problem was that there were a lot of at-risk people out there who didn't have full planning, and there was fear, and I think justifiable fear, that if we moved people out of institutions without planning for their day activity that we could be considered Irresponsible.

So it's a question of negotiating with the local group and with the person, the individual who has made that investment, to see what the most satisfactory solution will be. I have an appointment set up with her. The staff have been spending quite a bit of time trying to work something out. The rates that we have set, we have 47 residences that are functioning, we have day activity rates above and beyond that, so I think we have some experience that backs up the validity of the rates that we are offering. There are also additional day program rates.

So we think there is still a fair bit of room for negotiation, and we have undertaken and will undertake to continue to see if we can arrive at a solution that's both satisfactory to this person and to our department. MR. B. RANSOM: Well, I would hope that could be done, Mr. Chairman, because I recognize that the Minister is concerned and the department is concerned for the residents who are involved, but I do think that there is an obligation on the part of the government because of what this person did in good faith, that she was operating according to the guidelines that were previously in place.

So I just urge the Minister to take that into consideration as well as the other factors that she has mentioned. Has the Minister discussed the respite program? HON. M. SMITH: I think we did discuss it at some length last night. If you had any particular questions MR. B. RANSOM: Well, will it operate in the same way for privately-run institutions as it will for community­ run ones or not? 3397

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 HON. M. SMITH: Respite basically is given to families who are caring for their disa bled relatives at home and either they get a temporary homemaker, live-in help, or are able to place the person for a time so they can get a break or take a holiday. We had a relatively small respite program before because of the traditional pattern that where family or extended family cared for someone, there was no public money; where they went completely into an institutional setting, then there was quite a lot of public money. We are trying to make resources available in a more flexible way.

We have increased the budgetary amount from 173.2 to 630.2, and all ocated portions of that to the regions, but the precise criteria are being worked out. it's our belief that we should extend that steadily because we think it's the best supp ort system to the family, the best preventive of breakdown way to spend the money, but we can't quickly get from a situation where there was this sort of non-su pport of the family versus heavy support for institutional care. We can't make a complete transition in one year. For one reason, it's a bit of an open-ended expenditure because we don't know how high the demand is.

Experience in other jurisdictions would seem to indi cate that people handle that type of service very responsib ly, but it's a question of we have expanded it quite signi ficantly and intend to continue to do so. The group homes or private guest homes usually provide their own respite because of the rates that they are paid, therefore, adequate staffing. it's by staggering your staffing and so on that you achieve respite. it's the families who are caring for their disabled relatives at home that really are in need of respite.

Foster care would qualify, though, a foster parent; a foster family would qualify for respite. MR. B. RANSOM: The assumption will be then that for a private guest home that the basic rates will be sufficient to allow the operator of the home to hire someone on their own. But it is my understanding though from the previous discussion that the rates have not been the same for the private operators as they have for some of the group homes where they have been able to hire people who do that. Will any difference be elimin ated within the next few months?

Can the Minister tell us by what point in time any difference will be eliminated? HON. M. SMITH: I think the confusion is arising out of the fact that there is quite a lot of care for disabled adults and elderly people going on with very heavy inv olvement of private guest homes. The clientele that we're dealing with, the mentally disabled adults, are really a somewhat different population. There is a little overlap, but most of these people have a more severe disability and are panelled under the M.R, the mental retardation law.

The other people are, for financial reasons, under the social allowance regulations. lt is through that system that most of the private gue st homes are receiving their amounts. I don't think now is the time for me to comment on the adequacy or not of those. But, under the mental retardation homes, as I say, we have 47 of them currently in operation, so we have some experience in terms of the adequacy of the per diems. lt is not flush, but it is workable. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry if the Minister misunderstood, or I didn't make it plain.

All of my questions have been concerning mentally retarded people. I have both private ly-run homes in my constituency as well as community-run homes. I would like the Minister to tell me then for a home that was in operation a year ago - one is a privately-run home and one is a community-home. Both have the same levels of mentally retarded people. Do they receive the same compensation for looking after them? HON. M. SMITH: If they have been set up and are known to our system, they should be receiving the same level.

If there's a discrepancy there, then it's a carry­ over from a rather disorganized system that has been in existence. If the member has any information for us that could help us sort it out in greater detail we'll undertake to do that. But if they are dealing with our system with mentally retarded people that have gone the same way through the public system, in terms of identification and qualification for support, then there shouldn't be any difference in the rates paid because of the auspices of the home. MR. B.

RANSOM: One last question then dealing with mileage that's paid to the operators of homes to take residents to the doctor and that sort of thing, what rates are paid now? Are they the same rates that are paid to a private individual as, again, would be paid to the community-based operations? HON. M. SMITH: If the home is operating with people who are receiving social allowance, then if they qua lify for special trips to the doctor or such like under that system, as far as we understand, anyone who is looking after them would be entitled to the same payments.

I guess it's remotely possible that there is one of your homes that is operating under social allowance system and another under ours, and no one has spotted that discrepancy. But, as I say, if that's the case, we're working to identify all the population out there and see that they're on equitable and similar funding. So if there is a discrepan cy, we'd like to know about it and look into it to see if we can work it through. MR. B. RANSOM: Can I ask the Min ister then, people operating under her program, how much do they get paid for mileage? HON. M.

SMITH: Almost all the adult mentally disabled people are on social allowance. There would be just a handful of people who have pr ivate means of some sort, so they would qualify the same way any social allowance person would. If there are extra amounts for special needs, transportation, health or whatever, they would qua lify under that. So that would come under the Employment Serv ices and Economic Security Department. MR. B. RANSOM: What is that rate then? Is the Min ister aware of what that rate is and who sets it? HON. M. SMITH: The Economic Security Department would be responsible for that.

There is such a thing as special social allowance. An ordinary recipient of 3398

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 social allowance would get their basic living costs and health insurance and transportation according to certain criteria. The special group of recipients also are entitled to a board and room and supervision allowance, which is what would be allowed for our people. In other words, the total amount all ocated from the public purse for them would be higher than for the average social allowance recipient. Of that, they receive some small portion for their own use, and the other goes to the board, room and supervision, the expenditure that we make.

Now, in terms of comp arable amounts for transportati on, that would be negotiated, I guess, the way the social allowance system looks at the actual cost and the actual need. We would cover the transpo rtation by a contract for day activity programs, part of our area of responsibility . MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, again, I'm going by the situation of one my constituents who operates homes that look after mostly retarded adults. She gets, as I un derstand it, 13 cents a kilome tre to take individuals to see the doctor, for example.

Now a civil servant or a member of the Legislature is going to get paid starting around 26 cents a kilo metre. What justificat ion would there be to provide such a low level of com pensation to someone who is transporting mentally retarded people to get health care, for example? HON. M. SMITH: Those rates would come under the other department. I've noted the difference and will look into it but it's not, strictly speaki ng, under our MR. CHAIRMAN: Which department is this? HON. M. SMITH: Employment Services and Economic Security. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)(3) - the Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Mr .

Chairman. Could the Minister explain what forms of financial assistance are referred to in this item? HON. M. SMITH: Community residences - do you want to have the amounts that are allocated in the change? MR. C. BIRT: Please. HON. M. SMITH: All right. 11 has moved from last year, $2,636,800 to $3,365, 10 0.00. The total increase of $728 ,300, $42 8,300 is for incr eased numb ers of residential spaces and $300,000 for capital costs. Now they are paid by being added to the per diem to help defray the amortization. I read all of these yesterday, so they will be in the record. MR.

CHAIRMAN: There is no point repeating it now. HON. M. SMITH: I can read the titles, perhaps, if you want. The training in residences; the maintenance of mentally retarded in the community; adult day program; su pervised department living; respite care; child development; fee for services; subsis tence allowance; transportation; vocational training; field services; plus an additional $1 ,350,000 for the Welcome Home to assist in the de-institutionalization. 11 is not allocated as yet. 1t is there to assist with the special needs of individuals. MR. C.

BIRT: The $1. 3 million increase that the Minis ter is referring to for the Welcome Home, I notice in the letter that was put out by the Minis ter that there was a daily rate increase. Is that to cover the increase? I think it moves from $6.63 to $8 a day. HON. M. SMITH: That is for the adult day program - vocational. MR. C. BIRT: The que stion really is: is it increasing of rates or is it for brand new financial services? HON. M. SMITH: Both. MR. C. BIRT: Could we have the breakdown? HON. M. SMITH: We're into the external agency sectio n.

There are 25 day program activity centres currently operating, and they are run by local community boards. The 1984-85 rate was $6.80 per day; it is going up to $8 per day for this year. The day activity centres which are assessed as providing adequate service to the new de-institution alized clients and at-risk clients will receive $10 per day, and all the existing ones that will currently be at $8 will be undergoing assessment during the year to see that their program meets the needs of the individuals.

When that assessment is complete, they will move into the $10 per diem as well. lt is an attempt to get the total day activity program both better funded and the services better targeted to the needs of the individuals. MR. C. BIRT: So the $1. 3 million is really going for the increasing of rates to the recipients. I thought the Minis ter had said some would be to increasing of rates, but some would be for a new financial assistance program. HON. M. SMITH: The increases that I gave in each of the subcomponents of this is the increase for people already in the system.

The block amount that is under the Welcome Home, the $1 ,350,000 is the increase that will be attributed to the de-institutionali zed people moving into the system. MR. C. BIRT: Is that the $10 a day rate? HON. M. SMITH: If the program is assessed as being adequ ate to meet their need, yes. MR. C. BIRT: There is approximately a 40 percent in crease in financial assistance between the costs of last year and the estimated costs for this year But the question will be: is this really a 40 percent increase or is it consolidation of certain programs?

Because, when looking at the Estimates of last year, I know there are one or two departments have been either eliminated 3399

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 or merged, and I want to know whether this is a true increase or is it just the reflecting of the merging of one or two operations? HON. M. SMI TH: lt is subs tantia lly an incr ease allocation to the mentally retarded community. 11 is not just a simple consolidation from other line items. MR. C. BIRT: Of the increase, how much is going to the physically disabled? HON. M. SMITH: There is a very small percentage. Again, we're dealing, I guess, with the state of the art in that there has never been a coherent, comprehensive planning for the different disability groups.

By an ad hoc method of devel opment, there has been overlap in the vocational training. Sometimes, there is post­ mentally ill involved; sometimes there is physically disabled. We can't give you the precise numbers. We do make special grants to the Society for Crippled Childr en and to some services for the deaf and hard of hearing but, by far, the bulk of this money is for the mentally disabled.

In time, we may both be able to break it out more in terms of the different need groups, at the same time as we would move toward generic service where, if there's vocational training needs we would place people according to their need rather than their disability label. But there is quite a long way to go before we arrive at that. MR. C. BIRT: Is the Min ister indicating that they do not have any program or policy in place to study the physically handic apped aspect, and it's still being run, I think in the Min ister's words, in a rather chaotic state? HON. M.

SMITH: I'm not going to take personal responsibility for the history of 20 years of government. Most programs deal ing with needy people in the community were done originally by the family, then by volunteer groups, eventually through things like Un ited Way and eventually public funding. The previous regime divided up Health and Community Ser vices and, for whatever reasons seemed persuasive at the time, left prime responsibility for the disabled with Health. But the prime program became a health program.

Now there is some interlock with our department and we certainly get requests for ail the unmet needs of a great many disability groups. So what we are trying to do is identify the gaps and the overlaps and chart a longer-term course, so that in fact we will have a similar, comprehensive planning program in co-operation with the communities and the volunteer sector, so that an individual person with a particular disability can, in fact, from child hood on through adult life, get their range of needs met.

We have been starting to develop that co-ordinated approach for the elder ly, for the physically disabled, through our Social Resources Committee which tries to co-ordina te the work of the social program departments. But again, the past pattern has had a lot of gaps. lt was mainly a sort of a reactive system that provided for the most pressing need when people came forward. lt wasn't a comprehensive planning process and it's going to take a while, particularly at a time when public monies are difficult to find, to move into that mode.

I am very proud to be part of a government that has made this type of increased commitment to the mentally disabled members of the community at such a time. Again, I think it's a prudent way to go at the problem because, if you deal with th ese problems in a compr ehensive way before you've got a lot of emergencies, you can usually make better judgments and get more effective and economically efficient modes of service deliv ery. So I guess what you're seeing happening with the mentally disabled, we may in time be able to accomplish for some of the other disability groups. MR. C.

BIRT: What is the Min ister's department doing now in the way of comprehensive planning to develop a program for the physically disabled? HON. M. SMITH: By identifying the problem and working with other Min isters thr ough the Social Resource Committee to identify where the difficulties are. The physically dis abled, by and large, don't have mental disability problems, so if they get the basic health care and access to buildings and so on, they're usually able to integrate into the regular education employment training, employment world, so their problems are significantly different.

We, of course, do get some people who have severe physical disabilities and also a mental disability, so In a sense they're the people who are presenting the greatest need and have a good claim to high priority in the planning. There is a great deal being done in the way of self­ help by the physically disabled , as they have become more organized and more aware of their needs.

I think, gradually they are modifying the transportation systems, the building codes, the educational programs and employment vocations so that, in a way, a lot of their needs are being met by virtue of their own ability to influence policy. But we have flagged the problem. We have been inventorying what's there and what isn't there, so we have been taking initiatives in that regard but it's a long er-term process. MR. C. BIRT: The Minis ter indica ted that the department is identifying the problem. I would like to know how, by what method the department is identifying the problem. HON. M.

SMITH: Well, in our own planning of services and, when we are approached by different groups, the hard of hearing, the blind, the League for the Physically Hand icapped and so on, we listen very attentiv ely to what their perceived needs are. Also, in working with my colleagues through the Treasury Board, Estimates process, Social Resource Committee and our overall government planning, we are identifying these problems and developing an approach to them. But lt's an inter departmental process and it's also very co­ operative with the communities out there.

The mentally dis abled though seem to be the group that, because again they have more difficulty speaking for themselves, had presented the most complex and 3400

Thuraday , 27 June, 1985 pressing demand for assistance. The physically disabled has been a very well-developed community agency such as the Society for Crippled Children and Adults. I'm not sure if they've changed their title. I can't quite keep up to the name changes. but they have played a much more comprehensive role in meeting the needs of that client population. and have received quite a lot of public funding through the years to do that. So in a sense, that system has been more fully developed without government direct involvement. MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to know if the Minister has anyone under contract or on staff who's direct responsibility is to identify and co-ordinate this problem, because has used the word that we are identifying this and will be producing a comprehensive plan for it. Then I get an answer and exactly what that means is that we're planning for services as we get approached by the self-help groups and I get information from my other colleagues.

That, to my way of thinking, is not really any sort of planning or any co-ordinated action in trying to identify and establish policies for the specific area of potential recipients. I would like to know whether or not there is anyone specifically charged, or any group specifically charged, that is paid for by this government that is developing something in this area. HON. M. SMITH: One of the pr oblems that has faced government was the breakup of the two departments under the Conservative Government, where the lead responsibility for the disabled and the elderly has been on the Health side.

We have had other groupings in the Community Service side. However, we have been working co-operatively with those other departments, but I think again because of that division of responsibilit y, that Health would be the more appropriate department. We have been responding to some of the emerging needs; there 's 13 0,0 00 been going to the Independent Interpreter Referral Service to enable the deaf and hard of hearing to integrate more readily, access services and become more part of the community. There's a large funding that goes through the SCCA, Society for Crippled Children and Adults, and we work them.

We currently have a co-operative study program going on with them to work out the best mix of integrated programs for the disabled in day care and special programs required at the SCCA in trying to develop criteria and a decision-making process so that the needs of the youngsters can be met. We do fund premier personnel, a group that on a fee for service basis, that 's a group that's been seeking out employment for disabled people.

We have almost $1 million, $941.2 to the CNIB, and we've committed ourselves in the department to gradually move to the more generic approach as we plan for a NEED's group at the same time we try to have our sights set on how we can integrate disability groups into the general program service. For example, we meet with housing and they are now putting some of their funding into providing special housing for the physically disabled. So there's a lot of interdepartmental activity in the government and Social Resource Committee will be the locus for that type of planning in the future.

What 3401 we intend to do is alert the different departments to the specific needs raised by these groups, to urge them to develop their programs for them and in time, I think a co-ordinated approach should occur. But quite frankly, government seems to have in the past generally assumed the role of just reacting to requests for funding and not seen its role as developing a planned approach.

We have conscientiously been building up the planning capacity in government since we've been in, but it's a very big job to do when one starts from the situation that we've found the departme nt services in and it'll take time to build up. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As the problem arose from the division of Community Services from the Health Department, why hasn't it been recommended by this Minister that the two be merged so that the problems alluded to by the Minister could be resolved? HON. M.

SMI TH: Because of the size of the departments, we've elected to work through the co­ ordinating committee and Social Resource Committee and we have quite frequent contact. We've been working in a period of time when the awareness of people to get their needs met and their expectation to get a fair share of resources, has coincided with an extremely difficult economic and fiscal situation.

We may face an even more extreme situation in the years to come if the Canada Assistance Plan funds are cut back as has been announced as a probab le development from the Federal Government, and quite frankly we're prepared to keep working to get a fair share of the community resources for people with special needs and we would welcome that kind of support from the opposition because I think we all want to live in a type of community where, in good times or bad, we still share appropriately with these particular groups. MR. C.

BIRT: The Provincial Government got an additional $55 million last year from the Federal Government and $65 million from the Federal Government in this fiscal year, what portion of those additional funds have been allocated to this department by the Provincial Government? HON. M.

SMITH: The Provincial Government got 50 out of a cut of 72; there was a $25 million to $35 million cut in the third quarter of tax monies rebated from the Federal Government, admittedly by a decision made by the previous government to have a tax exemption for R and D investments and cut the sharable monies available and it was one of the few years where we had a fourth quarter announcement of reduced revenue from the earlier projected figure from the Federal Government. That is the overall situation with which we've been working.

At the same time, there are volume increases occurring in many programs, particularly in the health field, and trying to work out the appropriate balance it has been very difficult. But I say in the light of that, to have achieved a commitment of the size that we have for the mentally disabled, I think, it's an indication of the government's commitment to see that the vulnerable people do get a fair share of what we have.

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, in the fiscal arrangements between the transfer of funds between the Federal and Provincial Governments have been in place for some five years and I believe we'r e in the fourth and fifth year of tha t agree ment.

I believ e the Mini ster' s inaccurate when she says it was a shortfall of $75 million, because the law of the land ind icates the amount of money the Provincial Government was to get and as a result of some assistance from the opposition, an additional $55 million was granted to the province for last year and an additional $65 million was granted this year that the province was not entitled to receive. What percentage of those funds have been added to these Estimates? HON. M. SMITH: I must remind the member that his memory is short.

The formula for equalization and established program funding was changed without the provincial agreement in the early months of 1982.

The formula shifted from an all-province averag ing to a five-province averag ing to get around the possible - it now seems almost like a rosy dream from the past - but the possible situation of Alberta oil revenues putting that province into the situation of having to look after the rest of the nine provinces because the rev enue projections were just so astronomical relative to what other provinces were expe riencing. it was the shift to that five-province formula that severely impa cted the funding that was to come to Manitoba and we negotiated some type of adjustment, but it's been an argument over the fairness in the amount of that adjustment figure that led to the debate over the $72 million.

Again, the decision to rebate around $50 million of that $72 million was appr eciated, but it didn't help to compensate for the other shortfall, plus the tax shortfall. So again that was the context within which we were working. I think the overall budget in this department is up over 5.7 percent. I think the additional federal revenue was around, it might even be under 1 percent, again there were some ups and downs there, but my memory is that our provincial revenues were going up 4 to 4.5 percent and federal was down around 0 to 1, and of course the provincial revenue is a smaller portion of the total.

So we have been dealing with a very difficult fiscal situation and still we have been able to allocate monies to this particular group. I think it's going to be a program that we can be very proud of. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, I am curious to know if there were problems when the existing department was split off from the Health Department? What was the reason then for transferring out the income security aspects of the program into a separate department?

Because, if there were departments on the initial division, it would seem to me that this would compound problems by transferring out the economic security aspect of this department when you are trying to deliver services and also give them financial support at the same time. HON. M. SMITH: 1t seems to be generally recognized that it's wise to separate the income security issues of individuals from the provision of social services which are based on dif ferent needs. MR. C.

BIRT: I am glad the Min ister agrees then that really there were no problems occurring when the Community Services was split off from the Health Department because it allowed a general focus group into supporting services in the commun ity. I would like to go into the next line of questioning, if I might, dealing with Grants. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)(3)-pass. 3.(d)

(4) External Agencies - the Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I read this, there is approximately a $300,000 increase in the External Agencies, and a list has been supplied. As I read the information that was supplied, there was a Canadian Association for Community Living got an increase of some $22,000; there is some $7 4,000 going as admini strative grants to Occupational Activity Centres. I am not sure that this is correct, but it would appear that the Kiwanis Centre for the Deaf is receiving $75,000, yet received nothing last year?

What I am trying to find out is how that $300,000 has been allocated because there would also appear to be a decrease in the Pelican Lake Training Centre by some $10 ,000.00. HON. M. SMITH: Well, it all adds up. There is $1 0,000 less at Pelican; the same at St.

Amant; the Kiwanis Centre had a partia l-year grant last year and some this year so, in a sense, it was a reallocation internally; ARM was the same; Childr en's Rehab Centre the same; Counsel and Rehabil itation and Work the same; Skills Unlimi ted the same; Ten Ten Sinclair the same; Canadian Paraplegic Association the same; Emp loyment Preparation Centre for SCCA the same; SCCA the same; CNIB the same; the Interpr eter Referral Service had a partial year last year and $1 30,000 this year; OACs - an increase of 74.9 in that area; Winns erv was the same; the Steinbach Development Centre the same; and CACL was up - we have been working with them to develop the community responsiveness to get people invo lved in the Welcome Home Program.

MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, just dealing with the first three in the list that was provided to us - the Community Assocation for Commun ity Liv ing, the Stein bach Development Centre, Winnserv Inc. As I read the information that was supplied, and the knowledge that I have of the Winnserv operation and the Community Living organization, it would appear that they are offering, if not identical, very similar type of services. I would like to know why the Community Living service received an increase, yet the Steinbach Development Centre did not receive anything, and Winnserv is also not increased? HON. M.

SMITH: There was no increase in the basic grant, it was for special work that they were doing for us in community development, but the dir ect sustaining grant was the same. MR. C. BIRT: Can the Min ister advise why the basic grant was not increased? HON. M. SMITH: Well, the overall fiscal situation of the government meant that we had to be very realistic 3402

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 with people, with external agencies. We have a prime responsibility to maintain the services that are a dir ect responsibili ty. Many of these grants to external agencies have been supportive of volunteer groups, but we don't have the prime responsibility for their activities. Many of them raise their own funds; they get grants, some of them through Un ited Way or Consolidated Funds. it's been, I guess, a determination by government that we would maintain them in a difficult year but that we couldn't increase their share. MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, the Min ister has advised us that this government has a large commitment to the mental handicapped problem within the province and made specific reference to the amount of money that was being allocated to it, and talked at great length about working in co-operation with the community and volu nteer groups and the non-profit organizations. All of those funds for the Provincial Government, for staff, for everyt hing else, has gone up substantial ly.

Yet here we have three very vital groups who are the most important integral part that will help make the Provincial Gover nment's plan work or fail should they not be there to provide it; yet, in effect, we have the government decreasing the level of support to the community for mental health pur poses because, with inflation even at 3 percent, their basic grant will go down. The commitment by the province to education and to health to the external agencies has been at 1 or 2 percent.

I find it difficult to understand why that the Mini ster is cutting back in these specific areas because they would complement the thrust of what the government has been attempting to do in the commu nity. HON. M. SMITH: Our allocation of monies has been going to help the very people that these groups have been advocates for, increasing the per diems and making the services available.

They were struggling along trying to do a lot on their own, but also many of them have seen thems elves as having an advocacy role to get public expenditure for the di rect service by go vernment, and that's in fact what they have accomplished. Again the admin. grants in time when we get a comprehensive approach in place, I think having a finer allocation of you look after planning in this area and we'll do it here and fine tuning the allocation.

I would like to be in a situation where we're doing that, but in the past we've often just funded groups without a lot of scrutiny about what they were doing or how it fit into the total system. That's part of the dilemma of going from again a kind of ad hoc system with a lot of gaps into a more comprehensive service deliv ery stage. MR. C. BIRT: Is the Mini ster saying that th ese organizations are not providing a valuable service to the commun ity, that they are contributing to anything but a coherent policy for delivery of service to the mentally handicapped in the province? HON. M.

SMITH: I'm saying that you don't develop a comprehensive system by just ad hoc supporting of a lot of volu nteer groups, because they may work very intensively in one area and they may leave another area completely untouched. As a government, we have to have some responsibility for trying to spread the service more equitabl y, establish standards and see what we can in fact afford to support. We've been working hard at developing that type of co-operative approach. There is fine tuning that's needed, but these are the priorities that we've chosen for this year. MR. C.

BIRT: The Mi nister wants to give an additional $22,500 on a one-year cont ract to the Canad ian Association of Community Living, to use the phrasing here, "to enhance community receptivity". Why would not the same type of funding be given to the Steinbach Development Centre, because it would seem to me that they would have as many concerns and needs for this type of an assistanc e as do the organization in Winnipeg? HON. M. SMITH: The Steinbach Centre is a direct service group that's well-established. They have been happy to see us increase our funding of the dire ct service.

The CACL is a Manit oba-wide group which is doing a lot of public awareness building and sort of has a broader function. Many of the specific service delivery centres, in fact, have a dir ect connection with CACL. Steinbach is actually a service branch of CACL, so ind irectly they would partici pate in and benefit from the monies in the program of CACL. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)( 4) - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A.

BROWN: I wonder if the Mini ster could give us a rundo wn of admin istrative grants for th e occupational activity centres - there seems to be an increase over there - where these increases have occurred. HON. M. SMITH: The grants are $1 0,300 to each of the following: the Winnip eg ARC, St. James Industry, Winnserv, Doray and Norshel; in the lnterlake, Arborg, Selkirk and Stonewall; Eastman, Beausejour, St. Malo, Steinbach; Central, Altona, Austin, No tre Dame, Portage, Winkler; West man, Boissevain, Brandon, Cardaie, Neepawa, Virden; Parklands, Dauphin and Swan River; Norman, Flin Flon and Thompson. MR. A.

BROWN: That's a substantial list. I wonder if the Min ister could give me a list so that I could see just exactly how much the in creases have been or how much each one of these . . . HON. M. SMITH: The grant is 10,300 to each of those as an admin. grant. The other grants come through fee for service on the per diems for the day activi ty. Those were the ones I talked about earlier, the $6 per diem raised to $8.00. For the newly de-institutional ized persons, a $10 per diem based on an assessment of adequacy and with intent next year, after a similar assessment, to move all the per diems up to $1 0.00. MR. A.

BROWN: Then we go to the independent and interp retory for all service. I wonder if the Mi nister could 3403

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 give me some indication as to where this is being used mainly, and what type of

interpretation services are we talking about. HON. M. SMITH: This is a service to the deaf and hard of hearing. lt provides these people with access to services, social health and personal services. MR. A. BROWN: The Canadian National Institute for the Blind, I notice that there is no increase in funding over there yet. Their expens es must be going up. I'm wondering, are we cutting back on the services to the blind, or what's really happening in this particular area? I know that considerable concern has been exp ressed by this particular group.

They are concerned about the fact that there has been no increase in funding. I wonder, can the Minister tell me, is there a cutback in any of the programs that we have been providing to date. HON. M. SMITH: They receive monies from Un ited Way and other community groupings. We've maintained them at the same level. MR. A. BROWN: So those like the Canadian National Institute · for the Blind, for instance, they have to rely on whatever increase in in creased funding through volunteer organizations or whatever, the United Way and so on? HON. M.

SMITH: In the past, we've been working with them quite closely going through their budget and urging them. In fact, we've succeeded in helping them with the same allocation to spread their service to all parts of the province because one of our requirements is if we are going to fund a group like that with responsibility for the blind our responsibility is to ensure that same level of service is delivere d throughout the province, and they have been very co-operative, in fact, have been able to develop efficiencies and deliver that program more widely. We've been very pleased with that. MR. A.

BROWN: Does the Min ister have any statistics as to how many blind persons we have in Manitoba and as to how many of them are employed, and could I have a breakdown of how many are employed in the public sector and how many in the private sector? I don't know if we have that information available. HON. M. SMITH: There is no requirement for blind citizens to report anywhere un less they are in need, and we do know that there are 1,6 00 blind citizens to whom we deliver services, but other people who were able to cope on their own would not come under our purview. MR. A.

BROWN: Is the Mini ster saying that someone who would be on economic security would be totally dependent on government and who was not employed, would not necessarily be in these statistics? HON. M. SMITH: The services that we are talking about here are vocational assessment training, counselling, job placement, an adjustment training program for daily living. There are also information programs, specialized library services and recreat ion programs. In come security issues would be dealt with separately by social assistance. MR. A. BROWN: I don't think the Minis ter answered my question.

I was wondering whether 1, 600 is the total of blind citizens that we have identified in Manito ba, or those that would be under assistance from the government, would they not be on this list? HON. M. SMITH: CNIB may have a fuller categorization, but the number that we are delivering service to through CNIB is 1, 600. Now, again, the social assistance issue, the in come se cu rity issue, it would be the other department that would have that information.

I should just say that the educational programming information that was requested last night and that we promised to make available, we now have it, so at whatever point you'd like to discuss it, we could. MR. A. BROWN: Well, we could break off over here and discuss that program at the present time. lt doesn't really matter where we do it, but it might be appropriate to do it at this time. The Member for Kirkfield Park had asked a question. MR. CHAIRMAN: While she is reading her data, are there any other questions on 3.(d)(4)? MR. A. BROWN: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. MR. A.

BROWN: The Society for Crippled Children and Adults, where we are spending $1 ,705,000 on that particular item, I wonder if I could have a breakdown of that particular figure. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, that's the primary provider of rehab ili tation services to physically handicappe d children and adults. Services are provided to over 8,000 indi viduals du ring the year. They woul d inc lude counse lling, psychologic al ass essment, medical diagnosis and asses sment, vocational assessment, training and job placement. MR. A. BROWN: How successful has the job placement been in this particular area, in one given year?

HON. M. SMITH: I'd have to take that as notice and see what statistics - SCCA may have it. MR. A. BROWN: I noticed that because of transport assistance and various other ways in which we have been helping the physically handica pped that more of them have been hard, especially in the private sector. I would wonder if th e Mini ster could give me a breakdown, if she has the figures, as to how many would have been hired in the private sector and how many in the public sector. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)(4)- the Member for Rhineland. MR. A.

BROWN: lt is just that, again, I notice that there was no increase in this particular appropriation for the 3404

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 Society for Crippled Children and Adults, which really means that there was no increase in activity , no increase in health for this particular agency, in spite of the fact that we know that costs are going up. I would just like to make note of that. The next item of assistance that we have is the employment preparation centre, the Society for Crippled Children and Adults, and we have an expenditure there of 312,700.00. Can the Minister give me a rundown of what is happening with that money? HON. M.

SMITH: Yes, there is a workshop that provides vocational assessment and training and sheltered employment to approximately 175 physically handicapped persons. MR. A. BROWN: Is this one workshop and, if so, where is it located? HON. M. SMITH: lt is one workshop on Notre Dame. MR. A. BROWN: Can the Minister give me some information as to the type of training that is available at this workshop? HON. M. SMITH: They do varieties of woodwork, packaging, light assembly and they actually do some of the wheelchair repair, some of the parts of that, that they can manage. MR. A.

BROWN: So we would not be training people over here to become secretaries or any of that type of job, accounting or whatever? HON. M. SMITH: There are many physically handicapped persons who, if they are equipped with a few extra devices for themselves and at the job, are able to integrate into ordinary training and employment. So this would just deal with the ones who have more unusual or complex problems. MR. A. BROWN: The next item that we have is the Canadian Paraplegic Association, and we have an expenditure of $197,000 and again there is no increase. Has there been an increase in paraplegics over the year?

I notice that the Minister last year when we were discussing this entire area, she said there seemed to be a substantial increase every year of the mentally handicapped and paraplegics and these types of people, because of improvements in the health field of keeping these children alive when they were born. Has there been an increase in this area? HON. M.

SMITH: Most paraplegics are that way as a result of accidents, so any improvements we can make in workplace health and safety or safe driving are more likely to keep this number stable, but I don't have any numbers as to whether there has been an increase in the last year. I say there's probably two trends working here, one the more risky environment, and two, the greater awareness of workplace health and safety that protects people. So we haven't certainly any sudden shift from last year. MR. A.

BROWN: In this particular item most of these paraplegics are there because of accidents and as a result of accidents, t:: an the Minister then tell me, is Workers Compensation doing any funding towards this area? HON. M. SMITH: If the accident occurred on the job, they would be entitled. If it occurred when they were children or at home, then it wouldn't necessarily cover them. MR. A. BROWN: The next item is at Ten Ten Sinclair. We have substantial funding over here. I wonder if the Minister can give me a rundown of that expenditure. HON. M.

SMITH: This is low rental housing that's subsidized by MHRC. lt has 75 units in this complex with 50 units specially designed for moderate to severely physically handicapped adults. The objective is to assess, plan for and train young disabled persons so that they develop the skills and identify the appropriate equipment that they require so they can live independently in the communit y. We cover the cost of assessment, counselling, training and other associated expenses. Food and shelter would come under another department. it's basically vocational. MR. A.

BROWN: Can the Minister tell me approximately what the turnover would be in this particular area? How successful are you in moving people out of here and into apartment living or whatever? HON. M. SMITH: I don't have the numbers, although having gone to their last annual meeting they felt they were quite successful but felt they could be more successful and they were moving to try to address those areas of their program that they felt could be strengthened. MR. A. BROWN: And Skills Unlimited, could we have a rundown on the $355,700 that's spent on this workshop? HON. M.

SMITH: Yes, this is another vocational rehabilitation program working on assessment and training and sheltered employment, if necessary. There is a mixture of post-mentally ill and mentally handicapped persons there. There is a capacity for 45 persons in the work assessment and training side, and 60 in sheltered employment. it's usually operating at maximum capaci ty. Sales from production generate close to 60 percent of total revenue and the department's grant covers most of the balance of the total cost. MR. A. BROWN: Next we have the Manitoba Council on Rehabilitation and Work Incorporated.

Could the Minister give us a rundown on that organization? HON. M. SMITH: This organization has membership from the workshops and occupational activity centres that are throughout the province and this is a sustaining grant for that organization. They get together and share problems and discuss issues in the field. We sometimes will fund a special project of theirs, such as a particular workshop. This really just is an organizational grant to enable them to 3405

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 commun icate with their members and sustain thems elves. MR. A. BROWN: The Childr en's Rehabilitation Centre, we have $9,200, I suppose it is, it's a very small grant. Can the Minister tell me or giv e us an indication of what that money is spent on? HON. M. SMITH: This is a special program in the former Shrin ers' Hospital. lt provides physiothe rapy, occupational therapy, life skills, self-care training to severely mentally hand icapped and multi-hand icapped children.

Most costs are covered through the health care system, but transportation costs for the pre-school children are not covered from that source. So we provide for that. The school boards will cover the transportation costs for school-age children. MR. A. BROWN: This is a large program over here, and it seems to me that we are doing very little funding in that particular area. Can the Minister give me some indication? I suppose most of this would be coming under the Department of Health. The question should be asked under that department, but just exactly what is the $9,000 really going towards? HON. M.

SMITH: Transportation costs for the pre­ school children is the primary amount. MR. A. BROWN: Next, we have ARM Industries. They seemed to have considerable difficulty last year. Have they resolved those problems or have they still got the difficulties that they had? In other words, are they operating up close to a profit, or wha t are th e circumstances of ARM Ind ustries? HON. M. SMITH: For the first time last year, ARM came in on budget, the first time in many years. We took it over at their request, although it ended up of course by mutual agreement, but the board requested a take over.

They were experiencin g chronic deficit and were afraid they were going under. Our intention is to give ARM back to a non-profit group as soon as its situation is stabi lized. MR. A. BROWN: The $502,000 that we're spending on that particular item, does that indicate the loss for the year, or what is that $502,0 00 comprised of? HON. M. SMITH: Because it's a centre that does vocational assess ment and training, as well as sheltered employment for up to 90 persons, it's not likely ever to break even on the whole operation, but the workshop portion, the sheltered employment, is the one that's breaking even.

The $502,000 is our responsibility because of our vocational training responsibil ity. lt's similar to Skills Unlim ited where there's a certain proportion they're able to earn on their own and then there's another proportion where they receive public support. MR. A. BROWN: I und erstand that there was a considerable debt over there from the previous year, would that have been picked up as a result of the government takeover? HON. M. SMITH: We arranged an orderly retirement of that debt and hope to have that wiped out this year. MR. A.

BROWN: In the next area, Kiwanis Centre for the Deaf, I notice that there is quite an increase and the reason for that, I suppose, is because the grant had not been for a full year previously. Have we just taken over funding of this particular centre or why was it only funded for half a year last year? HON. M. SMITH: Well, this is an example of a particular disability group that its needs have never overseen in any comprehensive way, I guess, by government.

When the housing and personal care home portion of the centre was set up they were able to get some of the social support services into their housing portion of the budget, but they experienced cutbacks in the monies that they were able to get from the CMH C, and they were left with a lot of people with a lot of personal needs, social needs, and came to us really in a very needy state.

They felt they were underst affed and they were losing some of the funding even for that, so we put a temporary support In. lt's not, perhaps, meeting the entire need, but it is enabling them to carry on until we can work with other departments and see whether there's any better arrangements that can be worked out. But it was partly, I guess, in the early days when social housing was put up, there was not always an anticipation of all the social support services that were needed.

You can contrast that with Ten Ten Sinclair where the physically dis abled are, where there seemed from the beginning to be a recognition of what the needs would be and a provision for it thr ough government funding. But this centre didn't seem to have the benefit of that and we're trying to work with them; again, it's sort of a difficult year to add on anything, but we've been trying to see them through a very difficult time. MR. A.. BROWN: Is any teaching going on at the Kiwanls Centre for the Deaf or Is this mainly residential care? HON. M. SMITH: lt's a residential, a social-recreational centre.

The School for the Deaf is where the prime education programs are going on and, of course, in a lot of schools, certainly throughout Winnipeg, I'm not quite so sure what's happening in the rural areas where hard-of-hearing youngsters are, to a greater and lesser extent, integrated into classrooms. There's quite a range of educational programs now offered deaf and hard­ of-hearing children. MR. A. BROWN: Next we come to St. Amant Centre wher e there is a fairly large expend itur e in $9 ,91 2,000.00. Ha s th ere been a dec rease In population?

I notice again that there is no increase in funding on this over the previous year, yet, the only way that they can really maintain service is if they have a decrease of persons within that institution. Can the Minister tell me what's happening? HON. M. SMITH: They're at a fairly stable level. They handle the severely and profoundly retarded primarily and the adults they have are also profoundly retarded and are non-ambulant. 3406

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 MR. A. BROWN: Well, can the Minister tell me where she expects the St. Amant Centre to pick up the cost­ of-living increase, if nothing else, because the government certainly is not increasing the funding, so how does the Minister expect them to retain the same type of service if we see no increase in this item? HON. M. SMITH: Again, the centre has handled the most seriously retarded population, but over the years it's built up quite a high level of funding. We're having further discussions with St. Am ant to see whether they can manage at this amount.

They did get a very large Increase last year. They got an increase more in line with health centres, rather than the other institutions dealing with the retarded, and we had agreed to that sast year was some recognition that that was a once­ only approach. I should remind the member that the per diem In this institution is over $100;

whereas MDC has been functioning at the $70 level. So even allowing for the fact that there are severely retarded children and adults there, we don't feel that we're being unduly hard on St. Amant Centre. However , we are in discussion with them to see whether our analysis and their analysis do mesh or whether there's any factors we haven't taken into consideration. MR. A. BROWN: Has there been any increase in population over last year? HON. M. SMITH: No. MR. A. BROWN: The last Item we have is the Pelican Lake Training Centre and I notice that there is a decrease in funding here.

Can the Minister tell me why we have a decrease of Capital Expenditure here? HON. M. SMITH : The decrease is only $10,000; there was a minor capital improvement required last year that was of a once-only nature. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)(4) - pass. . Now we ar e coming back to the Educational Programming under (

c) Manitoba Developmental Centre. · The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: How many of the students at the MDC are part-time and, if part-time, what is considered part-time, is that half a day, or one-third of day, just exactly what schooling are they receiving? HON. M. SMITH: We call a quarter to three-quarters of a day part-time, and the full day, full-time. Of the 45 receiving education, 14 are in full-time programs, and 31 in part-time. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Why are there 31 in part-time programs, and what is happening to the balance of their time? HON. M.

SMITH: We think that over time this could be improved, although we said yesterday we're hoping that we won't have under 18 's in MDC in the longer run. But in some cases, it's as much stress as the individuals can take in a day. In other cases it's been, I guess, the hysterical pattern that no one thought some of these youngsters were capable of as much as they're now discovering they are through new learning and teaching techniques. So if we had the picture over the last five or 10 years, we would see quite a raising of the expectations because of the new techniques.

The new building and facilities will give them a lot of assistance, but again we're trying to phase out the 18 and under. So the educational needs of the older ones would still be met in much better fashion in the new building. MRS. G. HAMMOND: How many certified teachers are employed at MDC? HON. M. SMITH: We'll get that specific later. The information we've shared with you, of course, is outlining a lot of the social skills and the personal skills that are also being taught. But the actual number of teachers, we'll have for you later. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: At the same time you're getting the information, possibly are there teachers who are not certified teaching in the school? How would the schooling that the students are getting at MDC compare, say, with - is it Prince Charles in the Winnipeg No. 1 School Division - and I guess, Kirkfield Park in St. James? HON. M. SMITH: it's our opinion that, traditionally because I guess MDC was protective and sort of a health-based institution, that not as much emphasis was put on the educational or developmental side.

Meanwhile, we've had great development going on in the community with working with mentally disabled and providing educational opportunity and programming. it's our opinion even for comparable disabilities that the educational program at a school like Prince Charles Is well ahead of what Is currently being offered at the Developmental Centre.

We're seeing that as one of the advantages of keeping more people in the community where they can get, in a sense, their service from the school divisions who do now have responsibility for providing appropriate educational programs for all the special needs youngsters in their area. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Yes, I recognize that and I see that the Minister does too, but what we have here is a school like Prince Charles that is educating students who were once thought, In fact, probably many of them when these children were born, the recommendation was that they would go into Portage and parents chose to keep them at home. So they are educating them. While I recognize that this was a custodial and health facility, with the advances that have been made with the schooling, I fail to understand why the schooling isn't given a greater enhancement at MDC.

Even though the Minister is indicating that they're moving these children out in three years, these are kids especially who can hardly afford to miss three years of the type of schooling that they're going to expect to take when they get into the community. They're just going to be that much further behind. I don't know if it's the Department of Education that does this in combination with Community Services, but 3407

Thursday, X1 June, 1985 I really feel that that's a lack, and it's a lack that seems to be deliberately being sort of set aside. In other words, the Min ister and the department recognize this need, but it's been there all along and we're moving them out in th ree years anyway, and it will take care of itself then. I don't think that is good enough.

I think these kids now that we've recognized a lot of them can be taught; they can learn a lot; they're out; they'r e having work experiences; they're in apartment settings; they're living in group homes away from families in settings tod ay, I think it's incumbent on the government and on this Minis ter to beef up the schooling at this school. With these kids we can't afford the luxury of leaving them even a year without the kind of schooling that they're getting in other places.

I think it's easy enough to say that something is going to be done, and this is the way it was and we're just underst anding, but we're not just understanding. We have a member of our family who has come through the school system who is in exactly that situation and he's out working. He's living in an apartment. lt's something we never thou ght could happen has happened and when I think of the kids in Portage who are not getting the same kind of chances that people who are living at home or in the cities in the same situations, they're not getting the same opportunity of schooling, I think it's a crying shame.

I think it's something when I see the waste and I go back to something that I've brought up in so many areas -and I'm not talking about not spending every penny on advertising -but when I see the kind of waste in government and then I see where we save on programs like this, because I know money is a factor when the government is talking about issues. I also think that to think of just three years, and possibly three years down the line we won't have these children moved out, because there may be something else that comes along or they can't find the homes and they can't move them quickly.

I really do feel that the money should be found and should be spent on these kids because every year you leave them without proper schooling, sets them back probably far more than any other kid, the so-called normal childr en in the se situations. I really feel that this is a great lack, and the problem with the lack is that everyone knows it's there and recognizes it. But these kids have a great need.

I would think that possibly the money that they're saying they are going to save from getting rid of the school of nursing, if that's what's happening, then beef up the educational part here because these kids shouldn't be allowed to get that far behind. HON. M.

SMITH: The educational program at the moment has seven teachers and two activity instuctors, again augmented by the various specialists who come and help with self-care because for some youngsters, the things they need to learn before they can move onto anything more advanced are often just as basic as eating and dressing and tending to their personal needs.

There are also speech problems, and there are speech specialists there; work habits and skilled training from the vocational people. 'Ne have been working, as well, with education to improve that program because I agree with the member that we shouldn't have in our minds a strict division between people in the community and people in the institution. We should be using all our skill and knowledge as we collectively are able to raise our expectations for the mentally disabled and offering them every opportunity wherever they are.

With the youngsters that are not as yet in an institution, we have been using things like the Infant Stimulation Program, the integration into the day care system, special classes at school, to enable those youngsters to develop to the optimum of their ability and never require institutional care. Again, I agree with the member that more can be do ne in the education field, and we have been addressing that and perhaps by next year we'll be able to report significant progress.

I suppose the teacher ratio of seven plus two instructors for 45 would be looked at rather enviously, perhaps even by teachers at Prince Charles, I don't kno w, but again we must remember that we're dealing with the more profoundly disabled for the most part. MRS. G. HAMMON D: I hope next year when we come back to this and we're dealing with it, that you can find that we'll have done these things. MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll go back to (

e) General Purpose Grants - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry that when I asked for the information on External Agencies, that I did not ask for the information on this right away in written form, because the questions are going to be fairly much along the same line. So I wonder if the Min ister can give me an idea where the General Purpose Grants were going. HON. M. SMITH: We'll give you the same sheets that I am working from, and you can choose whether to read them silently or ask me questions about them. MR. A.

BROWN: Maybe I should just ask the questions the way that we did the previous time and then if there are any questions I want to ask on this, I will. The first grant we have is to the Brandon Citizen Advocacy. Could the Minister give us some explanation on the $10 ,300.00? HON. M. SMITH: This assists the organization with the administrative costs of recruiting training and matching volunteers. Usually they work directly with mentally handicapped people and are companion to them in day-to-day living, rather like a big brother or sister.

They are not necessarily a constant attendant, but they provide help and en richment. This particular organi zation services Brandon and surr oundin g districts. MR. A. BROWN: Next we have the Citizen Advocacy Manitoba, $25,800.00. HON. M. SMITH: That is the same program but for the City of Winnipeg. I can go through the others if you want: $5,200 for the Canadian Council on Social Development, again the research and education body; 3408

Thuraday, %1 June, 1885 Social Planning Council of Winnipeg, $48,400, performs a similar function here in Winn ipeg; old Grace Hospital loan payment, this is payment on a mortgage that was assumed when we purchased the old Grace Hospital, $20,300; $1 2,600 to the Volunteer Centre of Winnipeg to help stimulate the use of volunteers in our particular department; $20,000 for Community Projects to cover a miscellaneous group of new requests that we get every year; and then a major $950,800 grant to the Indian and Metis Friendship Centres throughout the province, there are 11, and we also fund their co­ ordinating group, the Manitoba Associatio n of Friendship Centres.

They are located in Brandon, Dauphin, Flin Flon, Portage, Selkirk, Swan River, The Pas, Winn ipeg, Lynn Lake, Thompson and Riverton. MR. A. BROWN: I know that the Social Planning Council of Winnipeg is involved in many areas and there is substantial funding of $48,400.00. I notice that in all of these areas there is absolutely no increase in funding, so I suppose this means that there are no raises for anybody working over there, and there is