LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 17 April, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Welding: Presenting Petitions . . . Read ing and Receiving Petitions . . . Presen ting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: I have a Min isterial Statement, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, today is Law Day - a day in which the significance of the law in our society is celebrated.

Law Oay, spons ored nationally by the Canadian Bar Association and provincially by the Manitoba Branch of the Association, specifically marks the anniversary of the proclamation of the Charter of Rights and Freed oms which came into force on April 17 , 1982. The significance of Law Day this year is that it coincides with the coming into force of

Section 15, the equality of rights

section of the Charter.

Section 15 of the Charter will impact on every facet of our lives. Mr. Speaker,

Section 15 reads as follows: 15.( 1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disabili ty. (2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged ind ividuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disabil ity. Members will note, Mr. Speaker, that

Section 15(2), the one 1 just read , protects affirmative action programs and I am pleased to note as, I am sure, will most members of this House, that in Manitoba we are developing a very significant affirmative action program in connection with the Limestone Project. Earlier today, Sir, I signed a proclamation encouraging every Manitoban to take

part in support of Law Day activities. At the same time I issued the new and updated edition of the government pamphlet on family law entitled, "Fam il y Law in Manitoba, 19 85. " I am distributing this pamphlet together with a copy of the proclamation and this statement to all members of the House this afternoon. In a few minutes, Mr. Speaker, I will be introducing The Equality Rights Statutory Amendment Act for First Read ing.

I expect to have this bill ready for Second Read ing in a few weeks time. lt is my hope that this and other Charter-related bills to be introduced in this Session will make a significant contribution in the long and difficult process of amending our laws to meet the standards set by the Charter. I know, Sir, all mem bers in this House will assist in this task. We have today, Sir, crossed the threshold into a new legal and constitutional era, one which places on the shoulders of legislators particularly the formidable task of furthering equality in life by guaranteeing equality in law.

I sincerely hope that we, all of us, can measure up to that respo nsibi lity. 971 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr. Speake r. I thank the Attorney-General for his statement. I note, firstly, Mr. Speaker, in the last paragraph of the Min ister's statement a ref erence to guaranteeing equality in law. I want to point out, firstly, Mr. Speaker, that I think there is a real dang er that elected members in gover nments will tend to rely on the law in the courts to determine these matters of equalit y.

I think what is required, more than a junction by courts to elected persons to amend laws, to guarantee laws, is a will to act on the part of governments to protect minorities and to provide equality. Mr. Speaker, when I had the privilege of introducing Handi Transit In the City of Winnipeg, while a member of City Council, which provided for equality in public transportation services to physically hand icapped pe ople, there was no Charter of Rights in existence. That was done, Mr.

Speaker, because there was a will at the City Council level, and I say at the provincial level at that particular time, to fund such a program to provide equality in public transportation services for handicapped people. Mr. Speaker, when we introduced and legislated what is being regarded as the best family law legislation in Canada - the best enforcement system, maintenance orders and custody orders - that was not required by the Charter; that was because there was a will to act and provide that type of leg islative prote ction. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I say to you, Sir, and to members of the House, that the government's record in complying with the Charter of Rights is, at best, average. If you compare it with the government's record, it is a dismal failure. I also want to point out, Mr. Speaker, what I believe is a further failure on the part of this gover nment.

As the essential purpose of the Charter is the protection of the rights of individuals, I would suggest to the Attorney-General and to the government that individual Manitobans have an important contribution to make in the process of ensuring that all laws protect their rights and that the public interest be protected. I, therefore, suggest to the Attorney-General and to the Premi er, Mr. Speaker, that - (Interjection) - If the Mini ster of the Environment is finished, Mr. Speaker, I will continue. HON. G. LECUYER: Continue saying nothingness. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for St. Norbert.

Wednesday, 17 April, 1985 MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I would. therefore, suggest that individuals and groups and Manitobans HON. G. LECUYER: Posturing as ever. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I think the Minister of the Environment has enough problems with breaking the law with respect to The Workers Compensation Board Act, and he should try to solve that problem before he tries to comment on any other subject. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Would the Honourable Member for St. Norb ert restrict his remarks to the statement and not make accusations against another member of committing a criminal act.

The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I, therefore, suggest to the Attorney-General and to the Premier that individual Manitobans and groups of Manitobans be invited, perhaps through a discussion paper on these issues, to comment on proposed change s or suggest other changes, and that we not simply rely, with all due respect to him, to a report by Mr. Gibson. We must also remember, Mr.

Speaker, that in dealing with human rights one person's rights affect other person's rights, and the question of mandatory retirement, as an example, without deciding one way or the other is such an example. There have certainly been concerns being expressed by people who are affected by doing away with manda tory retirement because they are, for example, not able to bring in new teachers at the University of Manitoba. We should remember, Mr. Speaker, also, that along with rights go responsibilities, and the term "right" must not be interpreted In a vacu um.

Section I of the Chart er, Mr. Speaker, I think refers particularly to that aspect of interpreting rights. We should also remember, Mr. Speaker, and note,

Section 33 of the Charter, the notwithstanding provision. We should be prepared to use it where compelling circumstances require it to be used In the public interest, and not take the position of this Attorney-General and this New Democratic Party government who say, no matter what non-elected appointed judges say they're not going to disagree with court decisions. Mr. Speaker, I refer to an example that was cited often in the Constitutional discussions by former Premier Blakeney of Saskatchewan with respect to The Lord's Day Act. That matter is presently before the Supreme Court of Canada.

This government and this Attorney-General chose not to intervene and argue in that case, although the Attorne y-General did say that he thought the arguments were being made by other representatives of other provinces. But, if The Lord's Day Act is struck down, I ask this government would the public of Manitoba accept such a decision, opening up Sunday completely for business; and I say specifically to them, to the New Democratic Party, would the labour movement support treating Sunday as an ordin ary working day? Mr.

Speaker, I submit to the government that they have to thoroughly review their position as to whether or not they will at least leave open the subject of using

Section 33. 972 Also, unfortuna tely, Mr. Speaker, this

section of the Char ter,

Section 15 , will not affect in any way or protect citizens of Manitoba from discriminatory actions by this NDP Government against Manitobans, on the basis, for example, having a Progr essive Cons ervative representative in their constituenc y. it's not going to help the Member for Portage la Prairie with the School of Psychiatric Nursing in Portage; Mr. Speaker, it's not going to help the Memb er for Turtle Mountain with the closing of the Land Titles Office in Boissevain; it's not going to help the Member for Emerson with the action the government is taking with respect to the RCMP contract in that situation.

Mr. Speaker, also unfortuna tely, this government decided 19 months ago tha t it would defer all controversial subjects until after the next election unless the proposed action related to a key constituency group, Mr. Speaker. And they have the nerve, Mr. Speaker, to stand up and talk in this House about discrimination. MR . SPEAKER : The Hono urable Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Water Services Board ending March 31, 1984; and the Report of the Department of Agriculture for the year ending March 31, 1984. Thank you. MR.

SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Public Accounts for 1983-84. Memb ers have received copies already. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. R. PENNER introduced, by leave, Bill No. 31, The Equal Rights Statute Amendment Act. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of members to the gallery. We have 54 students of Grade 9 st anding from the Westgate Mennonite Collegiate. They are under the direction of Mr. Pankr atz and Mr. Hummult.

The school is in the constitu ency of the Honourable Memb er for Wolseley. There are 20 students of Grade 11 standing from the Shaftesbury High School under the direction of Mr. Altomare. The school is in the constituency of the Honour able Memb er for Tuxedo. There are 33 students of Grade 9 standing from the River Heights Collegiate under the direction of Mr. · Bergeron. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Memb er for River Heights. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afterno on.

Wednesday, 17 April, 1985 ORAL QUESTIONS Proposed election - advertising literature MR. SPEA KER : The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Premier and it follows upon news reports that today the New Democratic Party is entering into a pre­ election advert ising campaign on billboards and radio. Mr. Speaker, my question to the Premier is: I wonder if he could inform the House if this is a firm indication that there will be an election in the near future. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, we're all, I'm sure, quite impatient for that grand day. Some time within the next number of months, we'll all be able to celebrate together the calling of the election and be able to engage in the democratic process with I'm sure, enthusiasm and excitement and anticipation that we will all share in this Cham ber. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, the Premier has no idea how enthus iastically that decision will be greeted. MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Premier is: will any portion of the costs of this advertising campaign be borne by the tax payer? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I was going to say we'd be consistent with the Cons ervative Government when they were in power insofar as relationship between them and the Cons ervative Party in the province, but I don't think I had better say that because I'm not all that sure. This advert ising is paid by the New Democratic Party of Manitoba 100 percent. I would like to say that was the case in 1977 -81. Maybe the Honourable Leader of the Opposition could confirm, that indeed that was the case. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that government advert ising is now th ree times what it was in 1981, I know why the Premier wanted to try and clarify that. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if he could indicate if these expendit ures on this advertising campaign will be governed under the new Election Finances Act that his government has passed. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I know the Leader of the Opposition hasn't had the opportunity to peruse The Election Finances Act, but I would suggest that he might have somebody research The Elect ion Fin ances Act, and he would find that it's not applicable to that legislation.

Amendments to Day Care Legislation - re lack of jurisdiction MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minis ter of Co mmuni ty Services and Correct ions, and I wonder if she could indicate whether or not her government will be bringing in amendments to the province's day care legislation so that it will correct the problem of lack of jurisdiction that occurred with respect to the Early Childhood Education Centre in Charleswood this year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the legislative program is announced in the usual way.

At that time, I'll be prepared to comment. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I might indica te that many people in the day care community are concerned about this problem and the lack of jurisdiction, and I wonder if sh e woul dn't consider bringing th at information early so that people would know. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, that legislation will appear in due course. Grenada Demonstration - Cost of inquiry 973 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Attorne y-General with respect to the costs of the Grenada Demonstration Inquiry Report.

I had asked the Attorne y-General for the total cost and he'd indicated the costs to the Department of the Attorney­ General were $1 05,584.00. In view of the report that the total cost may very well exceed $250,000, could the Attorne y-General undertake to obtain the costs to Legal Aid and the cost to other parties, like the City of Winnipeg, so that we could arrive at a total cost of the inqu iry? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: First of all, Mr. Speaker, I will obtain the information with respect to Legal Aid cost because that is within my jurisdiction.

I expect that they will be rather mini mal. I certainly will make no effort, because it is not my business to find out how much of that vastly inflated figure is really attributable to the counsel who were hired privately by the Winnip eg Police Association to protect its in terests by the Winnip eg Police Commission, by the City of Winnip eg. Sure, by lumping all of those costs in, presumably it comes to more than $10 5,000, but that is not a cost paid by the tax payer, nor through my department in any way. MACC Loans­ Number applying MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I have a

Wednesday, 17 April, 1985 question to the Minister of Agriculture. How many farmers have applied for the 9. 75 percent loan program through the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the program that was announced for the 9.75 percent in the Budget Speech is a program that will be used in trying to renegotiate some of the most difficult cases of financial hardship that the department has been dealing with.

I will take the specific question under advisement, but we are in discussion with financial institutions and going over a number of clients in the Province of Manitoba. Those funds, Sir, were never intended, and the announcement didn't say that the 20 million would be disbursed just overnight. They are a part of a package of restructuring, Mr. Speaker. The program that was announced will be carried on th roughout the year in an attempt to restructure between 100 and 200 farmers to save those farms in order that the restructuring will be in such a way that there is some longevity to those farm units.

That's what the program was intended to do. Sir, the $20 million program was never intended to save all the financial problems in the Province of Ma nitoba. There is an onus on private lending institutions and clearly on our national government through FCC to follow our suit to assist financially­ troubled farmers in this country. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I wasn't expecting to get quite the kind of verbiage that was coming from the Minister. I'll ask him another direct question. How many loans have been approved under this program? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I'll take the question under advisement.

We have the regular loan program. As I indicated, this loan program will be part of a major restructuring package to save farm units in serious difficult y. They will not be put out overnight. We will check what applications there are, and they are being presently handled by the staff, but I will get the numbers for my honourable friend. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, it is seeding time; farmers do need operating loans. Can the Minister of Agricultur e give us th e assurance and the farm community the assurance that every applicant is taken seriously and moved upon very quickl y by his government, Mr.

Speaker, so that in fact they can go to the fields this spring and put a crop in? Will he take immediate action so the loans can be approved this spring? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I think the honourable member misunderstands the nature of the program. The program is . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member leaves the Im pression that this program is one that will 974 guarantee operating credit to all farmers in the province. We have an Operating Loan Guarantee Program that we've operated and extended.

In fact, that program this year will provide some $50 million to $60 million of operating credit. The program that we announced of the refinancing is a program to try and restructure through negotiations with private lending institutions to see what they're prepared to do, because they are involved in some of those loan transactions. Using these funds, this will be able to assist about 100 to 200 farmers In restructuring their debt load in order for them to survive. This program was not designed to provide cash in terms of immediate restructuring of farmers who are unable to receive operating credit.

A program dealing with operating credit, Sir, was put forward by provinces at the National Conference last November in Toronto, and was outrightly rejected by the federal Minister of Agriculture to top off provincial programs, Sir. Grenada Demonstration - stay of charges MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Attor ney-General considering the $250,000 Grenada inquiry, and ask him since the City of Winnipeg has asked the police chief to reconsider his actions in relation to the performance of his police officers, will the Attorney-General now reconsider his decision not to proceed with any charges? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: The premise and the question is inaccurate, Mr. Speaker, and I will not deal with a question that starts with an inaccurate premise. Address for Papers No. 8 MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, since the Attorney­ General is embarrassed to answer that question, I will direct a question to the House Leader. On January 23, 1984, I submitted and the government accepted an Addr ess for Papers concerning correspondence between the government, the Franco -Ma nitoban Society, the Government of Canada, Manitoba 23, etc. it is now a considerable period of time since that was submitted and I wonder if the House Leader could indicate what problems have been encountered in preparing that submission. MR. SPEAKER: The Honowable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, there have been no problems encountered in preparing the submission. it took a lengthy period of time to ensure that the return would be accurate and that all files were gone through . .There was actually very little correspondence. However, we have now determined what it all is and approximately two months ago all the letters requirin. third-party clearances. which were a condition placed upon the /

w.dneaday, 17 April, 1985 acceptance of the Address for Papers, went out and those replies are now coming in. I hope to have them all shortly but some of them are taking some time, particularly those third-party clearances which are out of province. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speak er, I would also like to ask the House Leader whether the government intends to proceed with a Freedom of Information Act in spite of its dismal record in that regard? HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speak er, I would commend to the attention of the honourable member Votes and Proceedings of this Session, which record the First Reading of that bill.

School of Nursing, Portage Closure of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. My question is to the Minis ter of Commu nity Services and Correc tions. On April 8th when questioned, the Mi nister ind icated that she would be reviewing her decision on the closure of this nursing school at Portage with the Pschiatric Nurses Association. Has this review been completed, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker , curriculum elements are being reviewed and consultation is proceeding to date, and I think I did say - perhaps the member opposite didn't hear or recall - that the general parameters of the decision are firm. There is the financial saving, there is a better way to train the needed people power for the centre and the curricular issues we expect, will be fully reviewed and it will have a final implementation

schedule by the end of the month. But to date nothing that we have been reviewing has changed the basic assumptions or parameters of the decision we made earlier . MR. L. HYDE: A supple mentary question to the same Mini ster, Mr. Speak er. On the same date of April 8th and on previous occasions to this date, will she meet with the people of Portage la Prairie in the public meeting on this important matter in order to hear the concerns of the people of Portage? Is she prepared to meet with the people of Portage la Prairie on this important matter? HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker , I have been receiving letters and personal delegations of people here from the Cham ber, the mayor and the council, from the nurses, and I will continue to receive input from them but since this is a policy issue having to do with the deliv ery of service throughout Manitoba, I don't see what could be gained by the meeting proposed by the member opposite. Charter - progress in compliance with MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MS. M. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I have a question for the Attorney-General which I would have thought the Memb er for St.

Norbert would have asked if he is truly inter ested in equ ality. I wonder if the Attorney-General can explain what our record of progress to date is in compliance with the Charter . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speak er, I was just about to say in preface, I was more than somewhat astonished when I commented on Law Day, which was sponsored by the Canadian Bar Association, the Manitoba Bar, in a non-political statement. The Member for St. Norbert should have chosen that for a well-prepared political diatribe. The Manitoba Bar Association will not be amused. 975 Mr.

Speak er, with respect to the question, in fact Manitoba is an acknowledged leader in this area. The Equality of Status Bill introduced in the 1982 Session; the amendments to the Vital Statistics legislation; The Marriage Act introduced in that Session; and above all, amendments to The Pension Benefits Act introduced by the former Mini ster of Labour Mary Beth Dolin have set an example for the whole country on signi ficant equality legislation. We have already announced in the Throne Speech, and we will be introducing the first legislation in Canada, among the provinces, with respect to pay equity.

We don't need that kind of savage attack from the Member for St. Norbert which in fact denigrates this day, which should be a day in which all of those - and that was the way I put it - all of those who are dedi cated to the question of equality would join. That cheap kind of political attack has no place in this House. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The members will find on the . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: If ho nourable members wish to conduct a private debate, would they do so outside the Chamber .

I would remind all members that the guidelines respecting question period include the admonition that a question should not seek information, which is set out in documents accessible to the question er, or for purposes of argument on matters of past history. Boissevain Land Titles Office - status of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RAN SOM: Mr. Speak er, I have a que stion for the First Minis ter.

Wednesday, 17 April, 1985 Can the First Mi nister advise the House if in the interests of good pu blic policy or for reasons of enlightened self-interest, that he has decided to keep the Boissevain Land Titles Office in operation? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , it's a matter of ensuring there be cost efficiency, as well as of course at the same time ensuring there is a balance insofar as what can be conti nue d at a local le vel in respect to appropriate service. The Attorney-General has this matter under his jurisdic tion and is dealing with it. MA. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speak er, a supplementary for the First Minister. His government passed an Order­ in-Council that said that the Land Titles Office would close on April 26th and since that time he has met with people, he has received letters, he has entertained argument, and has said that he was consid ering reversing that decision. In view of the fact that April 26th is coming up very soon, could he tell the House whether or not he plans to proceed with the closure? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , I think that que stion would be best dealt with by the Attorney-General.

I have had some further discussions with the Attorney­ General and . . MA. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: You know I find it rather interesting, Mr. Speak er, from day to day we have honourable members concerned and worried about the size of deficit and then every day we keep hearing from honourable members across the way hundreds of thousands of dollars additional expenditure, millions of dollars additional expenditure they are urging and pressing this government to under take, Mr. Speaker . They cannot have it both ways. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, a further supple mentary to the First Min ister .

Would he consider simply cancelling the $90,000 advertising program for lotteries, telling the people what the government is doing with lotteries money? Would he just consider cancelling that $90,000 and keep the office open? HON. H.

PAWLEY: I would like to put on the record because there's been some comment about advertising, the total amount of advertising by the Manitoba Government is approxim ately one-half of the amount of advertising that is spent in respect to total overall expendit ures by either the Conservative federal government in Ottawa, or the Ontario Conservative government, or the Sa skatche wan Conservative government, Mr. Speaker . We have a responsibility and we will not - (Interjection) - I know honourable members don't like to hear facts - Mr.

Speak er, we will not abd icate our respons ibi lity to ensure that Manitobans are made aware of important programs initiated by this government. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speak er, to the First Mini ster or to the Attorney-General, whoever will take the 976 responsibi lity. Will one of those honourable gentlemen please tell the House whether or not they will be proceeding to close that office on April 26th? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. A. PENNEA: Mr. Speaker , I have very carefully consid ered the matter. I presented arguments in this House yesterday.

Later on today I will be advising the Premier of my recommendation and either one of us will make an announcement in the House tomorrow. Advertising - government spending MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , I would like to respond to a que stion that was posed to me the other day by the Honourable Member for Morris.

Before I do, just in case there's any misunderstanding, my reference to advertising was on a per capita basis being approximately one-half, and a per capita basis as to the costs of advertising conducted by the Conservative governments of Saskatchewan, Ontario and/or the federal government in Ottawa. Mr. Speaker, the que stion that was posed to me - (I nterjection) - maybe we're not performing well compared to other provinces ensuring that programs are properly explained in the Province of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker , the que stion that was posed to me by the Honourable Member for Morris the other day was in respect to the Bovey Commission which had made recommendations in respect to higher education in the Province of Ontario and the Honourable Member for Morris asked me if it was the government's intention to officially react to some of the recommendations which came forward in the report, namely, higher university tuition fees, enrolment cuts and the recommendation for faculty hiring incentives. Mr.

Speaker, it is not the intent of our government to, though the Bovey Commission Report may very well be applicable in sofar as the Ontario situation is concerned, it's not our view that the commission holds much by way of what could be positive or constructive insofar as the Manitoba scene is concerned. Mr. Speak er, we intend to do all we can at the provincial level, given financial and jurisdictional constraints, to ensure a well-functi oning qua lity education system at the post-secondary level in the Province of Manitoba.

I fear that the Bovey Commission Report would, in fact, potentially take us along a different road than the one that we ought to be following as Manitobans, the Province of Manitoba insofar as the Univer sity system is concerned. Mr. Speaker , insofar as the supplementary question by the member pertaining to whether or not we would put in place a similar commission as the Bovey Commission in the Province of Manitoba, there is no intention to do that at the present time. PCBs - danger aspects of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MA. A. KOVNAT S: Mr.

Speak er, I would like to direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health.

WednHday, 17 April, 1985 On CKND television, I saw an employee of the Manitoba Government wiping down a vehicle which could have been driven through the PCB spill in Ontario. He was wearing protective equipment except that there was no mask being worn. What are the dangerous aspects of being in contact with PCBs and how does one become Infected? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. You know, the other day the Mem ber for Niakwa on Monday, in fact, had a great deal of problem rephrasing his question.

I didn't think it would take him 48 hours to rephrase it, but I'm glad he did finally manage to do so. Unfortunately I'm not sure he's got a question even now, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. G. LECUYER: I'm not sure he's got a question even now, Mr. Speaker, but if the noise stops on the other side, I'll attempt to answer him. Mr.

Speaker, since the incident has occurred we have indeed responded to complaints that were raised with the department, the staff has indeed responded and at this point in time I can advise the member that a number of cars were washed down by the staff of the department and I shall send to the member opposite a leaflet here which gives a great deal more information on the question of PCBs. But the washing down of the small amounts of PCB on a vehicle with a cloth containing solvents do es not put PCBs in the atmosphere.

According to the proper measures of dealing with this, a ma sk is not indi cated as a requirement. MR. A. KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister, I guess he had a little trouble understanding my question. I certainly had a lot of trou ble understanding his answer. You know it took me 48 hours to pose my questions, Mr. Speaker. it took him five days on the spill at Carman to come up with some sort of an answer. Mr.

Speaker, the Min ister on Monday advised that he had 20 telephone calls requesting information on the PCB spills and I would like him to advise the people in the Province of Manitoba, what has been done to set up, to look after these people who think that they've been in contact with PCBs? What has been done to look after the people of the Province of Manitoba? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated just before, if the member listened, we have responded to the calls that have been received by the department.

At this point in time, and not including the ones that may have been received today, we have received approximately 70 calls. Of those, until the end of the day yesterday, some 25 to 30 of those have been dealt with directly by staff going to the households where the calls had been received from, they had inspected the cars and in some cases, some washed down by staff was required, and in other cases it was not indicated.

As I think I have already indicated on Monday, one car only at this point in time, has been impounded. gn Those members who have indicated that they fear it may have affected their health, were told to see their physician. The Chief Medical Officer has been in touch with the medical profession and the Medical College to advise how to deal with this particular problem . MR. A. KOVNATS: A further supplemental question, Mr. Speaker. I have been waiting for the answer.

How has the Minister advised the people in the Province of Manitoba as to the danger of being in contact with PCBs, and who to contact if they think they've been in contact with PCBs? I want to know how he has advised the people of the Province of Manitoba of the danger of being in contact. HON. G. LECUYER: I am not sure, Mr. Speaker, what the mem ber's problem is, whether he doesn't understand or he doesn't want to understand, or he has a problem hearing, or maybe all of those. I had indicated, Mr. Speaker, that all of those who have called have been responded to and those by phone, at this point in time.

We are endeavouring to visit all of those who fear that their vehicle may have been splashed or sprayed with some of the substance. There is, as has been indicated by the Chief Medical Officer, even the column that the member was holding up awhile ago, that there is no danger to health, per se, for members who might have travelled that road. But, if indeed some people feel that they have been unduly exposed, then they are advised to see their physician. I have so indicated on the program which the member was laughing at awhile ago in reference to the radio this morning.

I so indicated to the media, who have questioned me yesterday or the day before, and unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, this particular problem . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. G. LECUYER: . . . is not only one of ours, it's primarily one that the Ontario Government Is having to face right now. The information which Is provided by the Chief Medical Officer from Ontario also applies in Manitoba. - (Interjection) - Hey, big mouth there, just give me time to answer and listen. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. G. LECUYER: Mr.

Speaker, I'm one who firmly believes that from these experiences, unfortunate as they may be, there is something to be learned, and indeed it does bring about the greater awareness of all people that indeed all of us have to address the issue of dangerous goods. As far as that Is concerned, Mr. Speaker, we've got no lessons to learn from the Mem ber for Niakwa or the other side. We are far ahead from where they were ever at the time they were in government and far ahead of all the other provinces where they happen to be in government. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

Order please. May I remind all members that oral questions should be short, concise and to the point; and answers should also be short, concise and to the point.

Wednesday, 17 April, 1985 Student Aid Branch - Backlog status of application MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Business Development. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On Frid ay, I took a question as notice from the Member for Morris. The Member for Morris was inquiring about the current status of the backlog of appeals with the Student Aid Branch, Mr. Speaker, and he had indicated in his question that he was seriously concerned about the four-to-five month delay. Mr. Speaker, there is no backlog at the Student Aid Branch.

There is no backlog with respect to the fall and winter program, and the new spring-summer application period which began only six or seven weeks ago, Mr. Speaker, is well in hand. Approximately 75 percent of the appeals have already been heard contrary to the information that was provided by the Member for Morris who is fast gaining a reputation as having some of the worst sources in the opposition. Mr. Speaker, the time for review, which is normally six to seven weeks, not months, is well in hand. As the member may know, the review is a complicated process.

The delays that are occurring, and again I indicate that there are no appeals which are of any great length. The appeals are based on information that is provided by the applicants. In some cases that information isn't complete. There are other kinds of situations which create delays. The process is continually monitored. We are as concerned as anyone else about delays that implicate or have impli cations for students seeking aid. But, Mr. Speaker, there is no backlog and the member's information is incorrect as it has quite often been in the past. PCBs - monitoring sewage MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question for the Min ister of the Environment. Sinc e his department is providing advice in terms of vehicle cleanup, could the Minister indicate, given the very toxic nature of PCBs, whether his department intends to monitor the sewage effluent of the City of Winnipeg since this wash water containing PCBs will be in the sewage system? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister of the Environment. HO.N. G. LECUYER: Mr. Speaker. I have at no time indicated that the staff from our department were washing down Into the public sewers.

They are indeed, as I indicated. washing with cloths and solvents and all of those, Mr. Speaker, are being put in barrels, secured, and they will be put back on the truck that's hauling these transformers. Provincial parks and campgrounds - May opening MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is a follow-up to the First Minister yesterday in his address to the Minister of Natural Resources. Can the Minister indicate how many provincial parks will be closed on the May long weekend coming? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. S.

USKIW: Mr. Speaker, unfortunately the story that appeared in the paper was not accurate. I'm advised that there is going to be a correction made. The delay In the opening has to do with campgrounds, not provincial parks. So the campground portion may be delayed, but not the park itself. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: To the same Minister. I think it's even more important, if there are campgrounds being closed , can the Min ister ind icate how many campgrounds will be closed? HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I think that is a matter that should be taken up dur ing Estimates review because there are huundreds of campgrounds in the province, and unless I had notice of the question being put today, I could not answer that specifically. We're in Estimates today anyway, Mr. Speaker. Boissevain land Titles Office - Cost of operation MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Speaker, on April 12th, the Member for Turtle Mo untain asked about the government services costs of operating the Land Titles building in Boissevain, so I want to provide him with that additional Information since he has raised the grievance on this matter and asked several questions on it. In addition to the costs that will be saved by the Attorney-General's Department, there is approximately $25,000 in operating costs each year for staff, heat, light, mai ntenance and so on, so there is that additional saving of $25,000 in that particular area. Boissevain land Titles Office - Proposed use of building HON. J.

PLOHMAN: In regard to the other leases, the member asked about other plans for Boissevaln. There are no plans at this time to change the leases or any other requirements for government use at Boissevain at this time. Dip-netting - closing of season MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La . Verendrye. 978 MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you. I direct my question to the Minister in charge of parks and Natural Resources

Wednesday, 17 April, 1985 and would ask him why the government has decided to close the dip-netting season for suckers in the Whiteshell and the Nopiming area? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure why, but I'm sure there must be a good reason. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, while I know that many members of the Ho use migh t not appreciate the importance of this particular move that the Minister has undertaken, let me assure you that in the eastern part of Manitoba that has over the years become a tradition and almost a part of the rites of spring in our rural areas. While we make light of it here today, I want to tell the Minister that I would seriously ask him why that has happened, because a lot of people are starting to call, have done it for years and years and years, and now suddenly are being told they can't. I would like to know why. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Before we proceed to the Order Paper, I would like to announce that the Standing Commit tee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet next Tuesday, April 23rd, at 10:00 a.m. to begin consideration of the Annual Report of the Manitoba Telephone System. I would expect, Mr.

Speaker, that, as has been our past practice, following that start date, we would continue to meet Tuesdays and Thursdays with committees to deal with the various Crown corporations either in that committee or the Standing Committee on Economic Development. Mr. Speaker, would you please call the Second Readings on which debate has been adjourned in the order in which they appear on Page 2 of the Order Paper? MR. SPE AKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Mi nis ter of Health, Bill No. 2, th e Honourable Member for Pembina has 40 minutes. MR. D. ORCHARD: Stand. MR.

SP EAKER: On the proposed motion of th e Hon ourable Attorney -General, Bill No. 17, the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Stand. MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Ho nourable Minis ter of Finance, Bill No. 21, the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Stand. 979 MR. SPEAK ER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs, Bill No. 22, the Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Stand. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. Order please. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to test the will of the House as to whether or not there is a predisposition to waive Private Members' Hour today. If there is I would then, having that leave, move that the House go into Suppl y. MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased that the Honourable Member for La Verendrye defers to the Member for Elmwood. Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Minister of Health, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Health, and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY- NATURAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Comm ittee, please come to order.

This consideration under the Department of Natural Resources is now focusing on Item No. 1.(gX 1) Com puter Servic es: Salaries, 1.( g)

(2) Othe r Expenditures. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Chairman, would you clarify where we're at? We are under 2. (aX1), (2) and (3). MR. CHAIRMAN: No, we cannot pass the resolution without the Minister's Salary. MR. A. DRIEDGER: I realize that. We were debating under 2.(aX1), (2) and (3). MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, sorry, correction. We have passed up to Item 1.(JX1), 1.(jX2), but we cannot have that resolution. Mr. Minister. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, we had passed everything except the Minister's Salary. There is no resolution involved there. MR. CHAIRMAN: There will be after we pass the Min ister's Salary.

Wednesday, 17 April, 1985 HON. S. USKIW: That's right. We were on Regional Services, Item 2, when we adjourned the other night. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Chairman, we had been debating the conservation officers' aspect of it under this end of it. Am I correct, Mr. Min ister, that's where we're at? MR. CHAIRMAN: You'r e correct. The Chair wants to correct itself. We are now on Item No. 2.(a)( 1) Admini strat ion: Salari es of Regional Services, 2. {a)

(2) Other Expenditur es, 2.(a)

(3) Problem Wildlife Control - the Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you. I just want to raise one other point here myself. My colleagues might have some other comments that they want to make or questions that they want to raise there. Under the Problem Wildlife Control, I think we had a little bit of confusion between the wildlife, we were getting into wildlife ... HON. S. USKIW: Yes, we were all over the ballpark. MR. A. DRIEDGER: On this particular problem, Wildlife Control, this is the aspect , we deal with bear dama ge to some degree, am I correct? HON. S. USKIW: Yes. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Could the Min ister maybe indicate how many complaints or applications have we had specifically related to bears under the wildlife problem? HON. S. USKIW: What is the nature of the question, Mr. Chairman? MR. A. DRIEDGER: I was asking specifically in terms of complaints about the bears, how many complaints have we had along those lines? I have a few follow­ up questions just on that. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, maybe I should give the member the whole list here.

We had 1, 223 beaver complaints, if you like, or complaints related to beavers; 73 related to polar bears; 755 related to black bears; 64 with respect to elk; 10 with respect to moose; 252 with respect to deer; 11 0 with respect to wolves; 10 8 with respect to coyotes; 48 with respect to foxes; 259 with respect to waterfowl; 18 6 with respect to other fur-bearing animals; 17 0 other protected species; and 226 with respect to unprotected, for a total of 3,485 complaints, if you like, or references. MR. A. DRIEDGER: That would include all th e complaints that come in regarding wildlife problems.

Okay, specifically on the bear aspect of it, is this an increasing thing from year to year - 755 - I believe the Min ister said - complaints have come in? HON. S. USKIW: Yes. I am advised that it's virtually stable on change year over year. 980 MR. A. DRIEDGER: I suppose my eastern region there, the southeastern portion of it there close to the forestry, is one of the areas where a variety of these complaints come forward. Why I raised that, I had an individual who put in a claim especially, I believe, in oat crops during the course of the summer. The bears get in there and raise havoc.

I wonder if the Min ister could clarify the procedure in terms if a complaint of this nature comes in, because in the minds of people there is sometimes confusion because I believe, If I am correct and maybe the Minister can clarify that, that the crop insurance does the adjusting if there is crop damage. Could the Minis ter maybe just clarify the procedure if somebody has damage along these lines? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, the citizens are permitted to kill black bears on their own land In defence of their own assets or properties. That's provided for unde r subsection 46( 1) of The Wildlife Act.

So in most instances individuals solve their own problems. If they cannot deal with it, the department assists by deploying sca ring devices such as propane bangers and crackershells, or by setting culvert traps or leg holds and neck snares. lt gives you an idea of what the response mechanism Is. We have also If I may, Mr. Chairman, a program for beekeepers where the department offers a Bear-fence Grant Program. A beekeeper is entitled to $10 0 for each fence that is installed up to a maximum of 10 fences per year, so that $1 ,000 per one year is the maximum grant available to a beekeeper. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: I think maybe the Minister ·has misunderstood what I was trying to get at. In the event that there is relatively considerable damage done to the crop, what would the procedure be that a farmer would go through in terms of trying to get compensat ion because I believe there is a compe nsation program in place? HON. S. USKIW: No, Mr. Chairman, that is the problem, I guess. There is no compensation program for bear damage to crops. There is the bee program or beehive protection program; but specifically for crops, no. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Well, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister.

Then I have to indicate that one of my constituents obviously has gotten funds that he should not have received because I had a case last year where in fact as many as 20 bears moved into an oat field and created considerable damage. He put in a claim and our resource people checked it out, the crop insuranc e people came out and did an adjustment and he got compensated to the tune of $300 and-some-odd dollars. His anticipation was that he should have had more and that was where part of the problem came from.

That's why I asked exactly the procedure that has to be followed because I wonder if maybe the Minis ter still insists that there Is no compensation program for this. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I would hazard a guess that he must have had his crop insured and received a benefit from his insurance contract. I don't believe there was any benefit paid from the department.

Wednesday, 17 April, 1985 Perhaps maybe there are extenuating circumstances which resulted in some extraordinary consideration. If the member would give us the detail on that situation, we could trace that down. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Chairman, I will try and get back to the Minister. The information I received was that the resource people had done the inspection and indicated it qualified for a compensation. Then the next step was that the crop insur ance people did an inspection and ultimately he got a cheque from the province.

But I will make a point to try and confirm the information that I have so that ther e's no confusion about that end of it. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that crop in surance often asks the departm ent to do an assessment and to make a determination as to the cause of the damage, whether it was bear or other animals. That helps them in their assessment. Other than that I'm not sure of any role that we've played re compensation. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Fine. I have one other area that I would like to go into.

I had the occasion, as I indicated last time, to travel a good portion of the province in the last six months and talk with a lot of people. One of the concerns that was raised with me in regard to the Porcupine Mountain and Duck Mountain areas, there were problems with the elk moving down because of heavy snow and lack of forage, I suppose. One of the old-timers out there indicated to me that part of the problem that was developing in these mountains was the lack of a wolf program or predator control program in that area.

I stand to be corrected, but I believe the predator control program for wolves, I think, was terminated somewhere in 1962 or maybe after that, I'm not quite sure. Apparently, because there is no control program in place, this is part of the reason that the elk keep moving down into the flats where they're more vulnerable to hunting pressures, etc., and create damage to farmers. What I would like to know from this Minister is whether he is considering to maybe reimplement some type of a predator control program again, or whether this isn't a problem really in terms of the wolf situation. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, it's true that since about the early '60s, there hasn't been a mechanism to deal with wolves in that sense. But we do have, where there is need demonstrated, an ability to try to thin out wolf populations through one sort or another. We do niove in if there's a serious problem but as a general policy there has not been a program. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Well, based on the information that was given to me and this was just verbal information, do people from the Minister's department feel that there is an increasing problem with wolves? I'm talking elk and deer in the parks. HON. S.

USKIW: I'm told that it does arise but on a spot basis, and that's how they try to treat it, but it's not a general problem that has been expressed. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. 981 MR. D. GOURLAY: With respect to the problem with beavers in the Duck Mountain area, especially on the Swan River Constituency side, I wonder if the Minister could indicate what program is in place at the present time to assist farmers and municipalities in the control of beavers that cause problems. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, there are two situations possible, but in that particular area only one applies and that is the provincial controlled program. In the Riding Mountain, there is a federal-provincial agreement on control of beavers, but in this area it's a regular program, which means we assist local citizens with respect to reported problems re beaver activity and so on. But there is not a general program per se. lt's based on a reporting basis. If there is an acute problem, we will respond to that particular problem. MR. D.

GOURLAY: That program is in place throughout the entire area, or is it limited to certain areas within the constituency? HON. S. USKIW: That Is applicable provincewide, other than where we have a federal-provincial agreement on beaver control. MR. D. GOURLAY: Are there any changes anticipated in the beaver control program for the coming year? HON. S. USKIW: Nothing more than our efforts to educate and encourage local people to place control, as much as they can, on their own initiative. MR. D. GOURLAY: Does the department encourage or issue trapping licences for the reduction of beavers in problem areas? HON. S.

USKIW: Well, Mr . Chairman, that is one mechanism that is being used. The problem we have currently is that the prices for beaver pelts are so low that it's not very encouraging to the trappers to move in and take them out. That is a difficult area for us to resolve at the moment. MR. D. GOURLAY: I would just like to place on th e record that I appear to be getting increased numbers of complaints from land owners, incl udin g some municipal people, regarding the problem with beavers in various parts of the constituency, but primarily the Duck Mountain area seems to be where most of the complaints are coming.

There was some indication that perhaps the department was not going to maybe be as active in working with the local people in controlling beavers, and I just wanted to find out whether this was was in fact a pol icy change or whether it was misinformation that was being brought to my attention. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, as far as I'm aware, there is no change in policy or in scope of program. The regular program is ongoing and will continue.

We are trying to encourage local governments and individuals on the local level to take a larger role along with us, but we have not dimini shed our effort in that respect. MR. D. GOU RLAY: Moving to another area, that's the problem of timber wolves. I've received a number of

Wedne•day, 17 April, 1985 enquiries from the farmers in Pine River area and I believe the Mini ster probably has received some correspondence with respect to these concerns of ranchers in that area, complaining about the large numb er of losses they have Incu rred in their livestock program by timb er wolves and their concern with respect to control measures that are currently in place and I believe, their lack of control. Also, I understand there's insurance available through private insurance companies to cover these losses and, therefore, the department has indicated they would not entertain any compensation.

I wonder if the Minister could indica te any new control programs or any programs that might be anticipa ted to help these farmers in that Pine River area and perhaps, other parts of the province that are finding increasing problems with timber wolves. HON. S. USKIW: Well, again we try to respond to local situations, Mr. Chairman, in that particular area, we've had 18 wolves removed, of which 12 were removed by trappers and 6 by our staff. So we are aware of that particular situation and have tried to deal with it somewhat. There has been a program in that area. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Min nedosa. MR. D.

BLAKE: Under the resource protection, suppose I could cover it under this item. I'm sure the Mini ster got a copy of the letter this morning together with a fairly large petition from the residents from the Grand Valley area protesting the location of a waterslide in that area. In view of the reasons recorded for their objections and the amount of signatures and the fairly large represen tation of those objecting to it, I wonder If the Min ister is considering taking another look at locating the park in that particular area.

They're not against the waterslide park in other areas, but that particular location seems to have caused some concern out there with about 86 percent of the residents there signing a petition opposing it. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think there's some confusion with respect to th e role of th e department in that question. The department's function there is merely to anchor the landlord if you like, providing for asset of property for the location of the waterslide on a lease basis.

The question of whether a waterslide should be located there, of course, comes under various planning acts, under the municipal act and local government authori ty. So we really can't address the question at our level as to whether or not that par tic ular development conforms with the wishes of local planners and in particular, the local R.M.s and the City of Brandon. That has to be dealt with at that level. We have merely responded to an application for a lease of the property and we have entered into that lease. A contract has been signed a couple of months ago which is irrevocable at this point in time. MR.

D. BLAKE: I noticed the R.M. is one of the participants in the objections to the location of the park, and I'm sure they are members of the planning district. What jurisdiction would have some authority 982 here, and could the Mi nister forward the relative information on to that particular department? I notice that the senior district planner in Brandon has received a copy of it. Would this be under the Muni cipal Affairs Planning Branch? Would that be where they should express their objections? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, it's probably late for an objection . . MR. D. BLAKE: That's what they're afraid of. HON.

S. USKIW: . . . in that there is a contract already let with respect to the lease of the property. If there is an avenue for groups wishing to challenge that project, it would have to be I would imagine through local authority which has control over their development and the kind of development plan they have in the area. This is a recreational waterslide facility and that's going to be the only activity In this park. lt appears to be consistent with recreation in the area. But notwithstanding that, we really are not involved in determ inin g what should be done where in muni cipalities.

That has to be a local decision, whether it's industry or recreation activity through private sector or otherwise. That's not our function. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Mini ster for his remarks. I'll see that the proper authorities get a copy of this if they haven't already got one, and we'll take it from there. lt may be that the Minis ter of the Environme nt may be involved in it also, I don't kno w. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, just to make one more comment, I have to assume that the local company or the local entrepreneur has complied with and conformed to all of the local regulations with respect to environ ment and mun icipal planning, etc. That has to be an assu mption at our level. If it isn't so, then there Is recourse for people that have some objection there. They will deal with it at that level. MR. D.

BLAKE: If they have complied with it, I find it odd that the R.M. would be one of those objecting to it at this stage, because I'm sure they would be well aware of what's going on if they are members of the planning district, or whatever it's called. I know the Brandon Indu strial Commission have sent a letter supporting it, so there may be some local controversy out there on it that may have to be solved locally then. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: On the same issue, this is Crown land, is it not, Mr. Min ister? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, it is Crown land. MR. D.

SCOTT: Is it land designated as a recreat ion park? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, that's right. MR. D. SCOTT: Then do we not have responsibility ... sorry, I am too fast.

Wednesday, 17 April, 1985 MR. CHAIRMAN: We have to record what's going on. MR. D. SCOTT: Yes, okay. Then do we not have res ponsibility for protecting the land and the heritage resou rces within that land as a department? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, our particular inter est is protected by the fact that we as government through the interrelationships, or the relationship we have interdepartmental ly, have to sort that out at this level. With respect to whether the project complies with local planning authority is beyond our jurisdiction. MR. D. SC OTT: We ll, Mr .

Chairman, sinc e the resp onsibility for the protection of the land is under the department's administration, I would think that any lease we would sign with anyone to offer any kind of facility within any of our provincial parks and in fact, in any Crown land, would meet standards by the province in the protection of the heritage that the land was originally purchased for in the cases of parks. In the case of Crown land, we should certainly be aware of what we are meting out before we enter into leases. The archaeological history of that area is not something new; we have known that for an awful long time.

Perhaps, could the Minister tell me if the lease has written into it any thing which would prohibit the developer from disturbing or, in effect , destroying by its disturbing an archaeological site? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that when this was considered initially that it did in deed conform with all of our concerns having the supreme authority over that particular area. The archaeological portion of that site is not under lease agreement; that has been kept out of it We have looked at all of that and it's my information that all of those interests have been protecte d. MR. D.

SCOTT: If I am interpreting correctly then, the land that is of archaeological significance Is not included within the boundaries of the lease. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, that would be too sweeping a statement to agree with. There may be a minor portion of it that would be overlapping, but we do have a resident archaeologist on site and will be there during the course of the development to assure that our inte rest is protected there from an archaeological point of view. MR. D. SCOTT: I don't want to give you a hard time, Mr. Mi nister. HON. S. USKIW: I won't let you. MR. D.

SC OTT: Ob viousl y, you are one of my colleagues and you wouldn't let me anyway. But I just want to be assured that the lease as drawn has protection for the governm ent to control any development on that site so that the archaeologically significant area will not be detrimentally affected. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I think those sentiments have all been considered. I might point out to the Member for lnkster that in the agreement that we have entered into with the developer there is a provision that the developer shall contribute sums of money annually towards the

interpretation of the archaeological site. So there is co-opera tion, as we view it, on the part of the developer to make sure that this is preserved and enhanced. MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Minister. I would just like as well to comment on an earlier item raised by the Member for Swan River. This is my concern that when we get into wildlife control programs, and those two mentio ned so far have been beaver and wolves, at least, when I came in today into the Chamber, and also bears and other species.

I believe, and I speak not only from the heart but also from the head, in research that I have done and looked into other jurisdictions, and it quite simply appalls me at the kind of wolf control programs that have been undertaken years ago in Manitoba with the widespread poisoning programs in the lnterlake, in particular, and also what's been going on In the Yukon and in northern British Columbia. The primary reason for the poisoning in both those jurisdictions is they're blaming the wolves for any problems that they have, usually caused by over-hunting and habitat destruction.

With the timberwolves here, it's very easy to blame everyt hing that happens, every animal that dies, on wolves. - (Interject ion) - As the Member for Emerson just hollered out - Wolf! - the y cry wolf all the time. A MEMBER: We never cry wolf. 983 MR. D. SCOTT: That's right, you should never cry wolf. I believe there is protection via the department in water fowl depredation and also wildlife depredation on crops.

I believe very strongly that is the route that we should be going as far as compensation and not into some kind of a population control program aimed at wiping out the species because that is, in effect, what usually happens in it lt is just that people get this totally irrational hatred and in many cases fear and whatnot, of wolves. I have some inferen ces to this deer feeding program we had going this winter and some of the deer feeding stations turned into tremendous wolf feeding stations as well.

So some of the local people, in particular, were sitting out trying to shoot the wolves as soon as the wolves came anywhere near it There aren't that many left in the province, especially in the southern more part of the province, and in most of the province it's a wiped-out species. Where there is sufficient habitat, it is still in existence, but if the attitudes revert back to the old wolf control programs, it certainly would be a threatened species.

They are probably the most single most important species that we have in the maintenance of strong and healthy herds of the animals upon which they prey. lt is a far more selective form of preying on their prey species. If mankind could control our population half as well as wolves control their population we wouldn't have difficulties of over-population be it here - or here certainly we don't have the problem - but certai nly in other jurisdictions we do. I am just putting a plea in for the province not to participate in exacerbating or

Wednesday, 17 April, 1985 even in continuing some of the quite irrational fear that people try and raise in campaigns counter to the wolf in particu lar. As it refers to beaver, has the province looked into some experiments that are being done, I understand, in the U.S. where they are actually trying to introduce beaver and bringing in wood for the beaver to try and build more dams across areas where there is water shortage because it's just so incredibly expensive to try and build dam structu res for water retention.

Here we have a very domestic species, to say the very least, who will do an awful lot of that work for us and actually assist many farm areas more so than they will harm. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Chairman, I find this very interest ing listening to the Member for lnkster when he talks about the wolf problems and don't kill the wolves and stuff like that, and the beaver is looking after the drainage problems for the farmers and water control.

I wonder if the Memb er for lnkster has ever been affected by having wolves killing livestock, as was indicated by the Mem ber for Swan River. Until you have that personal loss or you have beavers building dams all over the place where you flood out your crops, there are two sides to the story. it's not quite the way that the Member for lnkster is illustrating here that the farmers out there are trying to kill all the wolves or all the beavers, that is not the case at all, but there's a way of controlling some of these things.

If everything was back to nature the way it was many many years ago, then we could say, that's fine. But ever since man interfered , instead of making their living off the land, then these things have a bearing on it and there has to be a control factor In it. When the Mem ber for lnkster is indicating that there is compensation for the operators if they lose livestock, the Minister just finished explaining to me that there is not, so maybe either he or the Minister can clarify who is right in this aspect of it. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, the Member for lnkster is certainly right, well, he's completely right with respect to one perspective on the issue, but I think the world started to change after there was a second person added on this planet, I guess. When we had one person, we had all the freedom in the world and when there were two, we lost 50 percent of our freedom. As we evolved and developed the natural assets worldwide, it is not peculiar to Manitobans, that we have affected our environment and have altered it.

Sometimes we have altered it to the point where we have not any longer a natural problem that was there, but a problem enh anced by the fact of our own actions. So, when we do that, which results in unreasonable increases of, for example, any species in a given area because of what we have done for that species, then there has to be a countervailing responsibility with respect to those who are adversely affected.

So that's sort of the high-wire act that a department like ours has to perform all the time, and it's not a black and white issue; it's a very gray issue and everybody is right on it - we're all right. 984 I happen to have a great deal of respect for the wolf. I think that is a very important species that should be maintained, enhanced, or whate ver. We certainly shouldn't lose it.

On the other hand, if we have created an artificial environment to the point where that species is domina nt and more than they should be in a given situation, then we have to have methods that would respond to the needs at th at time giv en th ose circumstances. So, it's all hypothetical, but I think it sort of tells a story of where we are. If we don't drain a ditch, we don't have a pond at the other end; if we don't drain it, we have less agriculture, and there are all sorts of arguments on all of these issues, pro and con. Hopefully, we're getting wiser as we move along.

I think we're much wiser today with respect to the use of natural resources than we were 10 0 years ago when this country was pioneered. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Scott would still like to see it that way. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the timber wolf problem in the Pine River area. lt so happens that these people are farming in an area where the timber wolves are prevalent and they have experienced considerable losses. I understand that the control measures are such that the poison only knocks out the weak timber wolves, or the very young.

I wonder if the Minister could comment - is this, in fact, the program that's in place to try and limit the kinds of control on the timber wolves? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised, yes, there is a wolf control program in that particular area at the moment. Now whether it's adequate or effective enough, and that's the same information I gave the Mem ber for Swan River before in terms of the numb er of wolves that have been removed. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, the fact is ranchers in that area, I might point out, have also suffered cutbacks with respect to the CRISP Program.

Many people in that area have been cut off from getting the CRISP Program. They have incurred huge losses on their cattle program because of the losses through the timber wolves. I understand that the Mini ster - maybe it was the Mini ster before you came into this office - had indicated that there was no compensation program in place. Is this right? HON. S. USKIW: That is correct, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. GOURLAY: Is there some will on the part of this Min ister to scrap the Wolf Control Program and in fact introduce a compensation program for ranchers in this area? HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, if there was a will, there isn't a wherewithal and I guess that's where the answer lies. We have no funds provided in these Estimates for that kind of a program. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: I don't want to take up and delay anything here, but I think it's important to put some

Wednesday, 17 April, 1985 things in perspective as the Minister has done as well, and I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. But as we encroach more and more and more on the wee bit of natural environment we have left in the southern half of the province, we, as mankind, have a very high duty to assist in the maintenance of ecological zones in the species that live therein.

I don't know, and I'd be exceptionally surprised if it would ever be proven out, and I've done a fair amount of reading on wolves, both their habitat and their patterns, that it can be shown that anything that man has done has done anything whatsoever to increase the population of wolves. it's usually exactly the opposite. As far as making them a more dominant species and we have perhaps to look at what other, I'm not aware, as well, if anything we have made them a more dominant species.

If you take away their food supply by, for instance, if there are situations of over-hunting, over­ poaching, whatever, their population drops as well, and the vast majority of any reports I have seen of people where wolf kills have been blamed on everything, have actually been done by wild domestic dogs, or domestic dogs that are wild at night. This is the difficulty in proving wolf kills for an insurance program. I would certainly much prefer to see us move towards a compensation program when we're dealing with species that are becoming more endangered as we encroach in their territory.

The big question is, should we be encouraging through the sale of Crown land, be it one way, or any kinds of grants towards clearing of Crown land or private land even, towards additional agricultural incursions into marginal areas, especially when we already have a beef industry that is in some difficulty. 1t doesn't seem to me to make a tremendous amount of sense to open up and go further and further north into more and more marginal land where the operation may well be even feeding where the grazing period is even less. it makes it somewhat perhaps questionable whether we should be, as a gover nment pol icy, enhancing the capacity of new operators or of present operators to expand into ma rginal areas at the consequence of the environment in that area if the natural environment is still there.

I'm not saying don't do anything whatsoever, but I am saying that it doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me when the population of beef cattle, for instance, in the province has been decreasing for a number of years for us to be expanding into new areas for new beef production. I can't quite jibe, you know, keep the two together when we cut down in beef production in the southern part where it's more profitable and move it into marginal areas where it is probably less profitable.

The poisons and the whole policy of pois on, I personally just cannot accept. it's indiscriminate killing, and it doesn't just hit the species you're going after. it hits other species as well. it will hit coyotes. it will hit dang near anything that feeds on any kind of carrion. They're most indiscrimi nate. They can't be proven to be sound, I don't believe, and I would much prefer to see us move towards an insurance-based program for wildlife depredation on species, as mentioned by the Member for Swan River.

I fully support his initiative or his support for moving in that direction and away from wildlife control programs, which costs us an awful lot as well in manpower. I think that the other situation may well be better versed. 985 Certainly before we make moves into things, we should be dealing with people who understand and are experts in wolves. We have people in the province currently who are doing extensive research. There has been a lot of research done over the years, and we're just now getting a better understanding of that species in particular. So that's ali i wanted to say, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. HON.

S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, you know, one can spend days and days debating the pros and cons of wildlife mana gement. I think one ha s to put into balanced perspective what we want out of our total environment. You know, I think we have better control of that today than we had when we had the buffalo roam the prairies, because had we had some control then, we would have still had the buffalo. So I have to take it from there that we have managed our resource better In recent years than we have in past years.

On the other hand, you know, there are people that get carried away with viewpoints having to do with the preservation of nature in the natural setting to the point where they don't fully understand that the human being is part of nature and part of the environment, and also wants to have room to play. Therefore, there has to be some consideration for human interest, apart from the interest of wolves and all sorts of other species. Recreation is a very important thing to all living things.

Anyone who has observed animals knows that they participate most fully in recreational activities, but the human person is one that likes to have a lot of opportunity for recreational activity. That should not also be compromised in the interests of total, natural, environmental sort of desires on the part of some people in society that have only a very narrow perspective. You know, three-quarters of Manitoba is what I consider to be a wilderness area.

Therefore, we have to somehow balance how we utilize the other quarter, where it is a matter co-existence between people and the rest of the living species in the area. I guess we will always be wrestling with that issue, how you use water, lakes, how you use recreational vehicles on water and on land, and where. All of these are issues that are indeed important, but I don't think one can take a very narrow viewpoint on any of those issues, one to exclude the other. We have to develop a means of co-existence in a way that allows maximum opportunity for people to use the resource as well as animal life. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. MeKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm just recalling the problem we had trying to keep pigeons around this building. They got wiped out. Mr. Chairman, this item of $14 0,200 for problem wildlife, I guess that basically hinges around the bear, the beaver and the wolf. Are there any other of the wildlife species that they can be compensated for if they do damage? HON. S. USKIW: Correction, Mr. Chairman, we do not compensate for damages as a . . . MR. W. MeKENZIE: This is control. HON. S.

USKIW: Yes, we have a control program not compensation, other than waterfowl damage. For that particular area, we do have compensation programs.

Wednesday, 17 April, 1985 MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: I'll try to make this my final comment, because I want to have things move along. I understand Mr. Anstett wants to get into it now too so. When we speak of narrow viewpoints, up till now man has not had a very good reputation In protect ing species. That is not Improving, I don't think to any great extent. The rate of loss of habitat is higher now than it has been In any time in our history. The attitude that the narrow viewpoint is one which is environmental, I think is exactly completely wrong.

I don't think the Mini ster was alleging that at all, but other members opposite may be trying to interpret that's what he meant. But the quarter of the land that we have in Manitoba where man has primarily settled is the quar ter of the province with, by far, the greatest diversity of species, both plant and animal, and of terrain. When you get up into the northern tundra, which Is the bulk of the northern part of the province and into the far edge of the arboreal forest, that area is exceptionally fragile but also very little diversity. So the species that are th reatened isn't mankind.

For us to want recreat ion and to be able to get out and enjoy nature, we have to protect it more than ever, because our enjoyment is at its expense. If we want to be able to have that for future generations to enjoy as we have when we've grown up, we have to be that much more careful than our forefathers were, far far more careful. That's, I hope, the final comment I have on the issue, but it's just that I personally do not feel that anywhere in Canada and in most of the world, as a matter of fact, that wildlife policies have been very well thought out.

In large measure, they have been geared to providing for the destruction of species determined or called predators and also for the preservation and the enhancement of species which man himself likes to take through the exercise of hunting. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: I want to get off that subject, un less somebody wants to comment on that. I would like to raise a question to the Minis ter as to the aspect of the elk ranching. Would that come under this category? HON. S. USKIW: Sorry, I missed that. MR. A. DRIEDGER: That's fine.

I just wanted to raise a question with the Minister as to the aspect of, let's say, the elk ranching end of it. Should we deal with that under the wildlife aspect of it, or where do you want to deal with that? HON. S. USKIW: Under Wildlife. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Wildlife? Fine, we'll deal with it under wildlife. HON. S. USKIW: Yes, that's fine. 986 Mr . Chairman, I do have to apologize to the committee. We did give wrong information.

I have just been advised that there is compensation paid for crop damage as a result of bear activity, deer, elk and moose, as well as waterfowl, and where there is hunter-killed livestock. So we do have a program for compensa tion. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Min ister, because I was beginning to think that I'd have to go back and fix somebody's clock. HON. S. USKIW: You were right, Albert. You were right. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(aX 1) -p ass; 2.(aX2)- pass. 2.(aX3) - the Mini ster of Municipal Affairs. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Chairman, the Mini ster was talking about beaver damage in answer to a question from the Member for Roblin-Russell. I just want to clarify what the status of Min isterial permits or Minis terial authority Is with respect to the entry onto private land for the removal of beaver dams Is, and how long when those authorities are granted, they are in effect . HON. S. USKIW: Min isterial authority . HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes.

I was just recently asked by the Cooks Creek Cons ervation District which received that authority this past winter and because of the winter and the access problems they had, they weren't able to take the action and they don't know how long the authority asks and they're looking for that Information. Perhaps the Mini ster could provide it directly to them. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I will ask staff to make certain that they do cont act the Cooks Creek conservat ion people. Is it municipal or conservat ion? HON. A. ANSTETT: Conservation Board.

If there Is any problem, I would urge the Mini ster to ensur e that they have adequate authority to solve the problem because it's not the beaver that are the problem, it Is the size of the ice flows that result from the series of small dams which then creates jamming and massive flooding on occasion. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(aX3)- pass. 2.(bX 1) Northw est Region: Salaries, 2(bX2) Other expenditures - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURL AY: Is there any activity in road maintenance or building with respect to this section? HON. S. USKIW: Would the member clarify.

Is he suggesting or is he indicating road activity, building activity In the forest area? Is that what he's talking about? lt should be dealt with under forest ry, but it really doesn't matter. MR. D. GOURLAY: Okay. No, that's okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: lt appears that on Salaries there's a reduction from $9 12,508 to $868,200, is that a couple of staff reductions? If it is so, what are tha changes?

Wednesday, 17 April, 1985 HON. S. USKIW: In the Northwest Region. MR. W. McKENZIE: The Northwest Region. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, yes, there's a reduction of a CO, a vacant position, which was removed, and a secretary . MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)( 1)-p ass; 2(b)(2)- pass. 2(c)( 1) Northeast Region: Salaries; 2(c)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, maybe just to speed up the next area here where we deal with individual regions, there was one CO deleted under the Northwest Region. I believe that would probably apply also under the Northeast Region. Would that also apply under the lnterlake regions or could the Minis ter indicate where the deletions are? HO N. S. USKIW: There are no change s in the Northeast. MR. CHAIRMAN: May I call all the regions then, and the Mi nister will deal with it all. The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Ye s, if the Mi nister could just indic ate under the Regions, we have a whole series of them right up to Item (

k) where the deletions of the COs are taking place. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minis ter. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, in the Sprague area, there is one reduction of a CO and one in Flin Flon. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Would that be in the Southeast Region or the Eastern Region? HON. S. USKIW: Sprague would be Southeast, Mr. Chairman. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Are there others in the other reg ions as well, where we have reductions of COs? So the question I have is, are these actual deletions of COs in the field that will not be replaced? HON. S. USKIW: I'll just explain.

In admin istration we have a ·red uction of 6.26 staff years; in the Northwest Region we ha ve a reduction of 2 which we jus t mentioned; no change in the Northeast; no change in the lnterlake; no change in the Southwest Region; no change in the We stern Region; one reduction in the Southeast; one in the Eastern Region, and nothing in the Whiteshell Region; one re duction in Fire Suppression in the Admin istration and an incr ease of Fire Suppression in the Operations end of 6.48. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: One further question, a concern I want to raise with the Minister is the two deletions in the Southeast Region and the Eastern Region, I think these are areas that are probably very vulnerable to 987 poaching - (Interjection) - yes, one in each region. These areas are very vulnerable to poaching because of their close proximity to the city. What is the rationale for the reduction of these two positions in there? HON. S. USKIW: We ll, Mr .

Chairman, I'm advised with respect to the Southeast Region, that there was a reorganization that took place that in essence, bound together the Plney and the Sprague areas under one person,

whereas it was handled by two previous ly. And that's been under way for some period of time and it just culminated. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Why I raised it is because according to the information I received, is that there's an Increase in the poaching aspect of it in the area there and I feel concern when there's an increase in that aspect of it, that we'll be dele ting staff. What see ms to be a problem anyway is that the staff cannot cover the areas adequately. I know that isn't the total solution, we discussed that the other day.

But maintaining of staff is one thing, but when we delete I have concerns about that, and I'd ask the Minister to maybe have his staff review the trend - maybe I don't have the right information - but if the trends are for incr eased violations and poaching calls of that nature in that general area, if this is a case that the trend is, that there's going to be increased pressure in that area, whether he would reconsider those positions. HON. S. USKIW: Ye s, Mr.

Chairman, the member should be aware that when we identify a problem area from time to time, what we do is redeploy people or staff from other areas to zero in on the crisis area, there is such a development. So although we have a basic staff in each region, we add and take away from them depending on where the needs arise during the course of the year. I might add one other point. The member referred to poaching and I suspect that he probably includes in that nightlighting and all sorts of things. As far as I'm concerned we intend to be very very harsh with respect to those activities.

I think we should be prosecuting every one who is nightlighting or poaching, that we should push it all the way through the court system every time it happens and I intend to instruct staff to do accordingly. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. A. DRIEDGER: I want to compliment the Mi nister on that statement. I certainly support him all the way in that and I think it goes a long way towards maybe indi cating how he feels about this. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(c)( 1) to 2.(f)(2) were each read and passed. 2.(g)( 1)-p ass. MR. A. DRIEDGER: With reser vation - pass. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 2. (g)(2 )-p ass; 2.(h) (1 )- pass; 2.(h)(2)- pass. 2.(j)(1) - the Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: In the Whiteshell re gion, I'm just wondering, with the designation of the Lake Mantario

Wednesday, 17 April, 1985 area there, do we have special staff that look after the control of th at area because it is now with my understan ding a no n-mechanical use area for boats, snow toboggans and stuff of that nature. Do we have special staff that look after that responsibility or how is that being handled? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, there is no change in staffing from what we had. We had 22 staff there and that is going to continue. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Well, just a further quest ion.

But is it that kind of staffing that looks after the control of that area, because obviously there is going to be a certain amount of pressure, especially on the outskirts of the designa ted area for mechanical use of motor boats and snow toboggans? HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, during the peak season, we also add to the basic staff complement departmental staff which is the short-term seasonal staff. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(jX 1)-p ass; 2.(jX2)- pass. 2. (k)

(1) Enforcement and Legislative Services: Salaries; 2.(kX2) Other Expenditures- pass. 2.( mX 1) Fire Suppression - Admin istration: Salaries; 2.(mX2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I wonder if the Minis ter under Fire Suppression could give us a bit of an outline as to what has happened in the past year and I know we can't anticipa te what's going to happen in terms of the conditions for this year, but maybe put on record an update as to, let's say, our water bombers, the amount of staff that is involved generally, just a general statement on that as to what has happened and what is anticipated. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, for the 1984 fire season, we had experienced 692 fires involving 130,000 hectares.

Of those, 287 or 42 percent involving 80,000 hectares or 61 percent were related to lightning. Person caused fires, there were 405 which is 58 percent of the total involving 50,000 hectares which is 39 percent of the total. Agriculture related were 88 to 13 percent involving 34,000 hectares or 27 percent of the total. Indian settlements, there were 142 which is 20 percent involving 8,000 hectares or 6 percent of the area. Other persons, we had 17 5 which is 25 percent and 8,000 acres or 6 percent of the area.

Fire Suppression costs, lightning related $5 million, and human related $1. 5 million for a total of $6.5 million in 1984. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Those figures just quoted by the Minis ter, tho se are not reflected here. This is just the staffi ng. HON. S. USKIW: No, that's last years. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Oh, I see. HON. S. USKIW: They are last year's Fire Suppression Program. Now, we have in the appropriation for this year, in the admin istration end, 13.20 staff years which is a 988 reduction of one and that's a vacant position, and in the Suppression Operations we have an increase of 6.48 or a total of 57.28.

With respect to the season's projections for 1985, groun dwater tables were generally above normal at freeze-up, above average snowfall throughout most of the province. South-central and eastern reg ions received average snowfal l. The Duck, Porcupine and Riding Mountain was much above average snowfall. Weather forecast for April indicated below normal temperatures. Showers predicted throughout with snow squalls at month's end. Average start-up dates for fires in the south is April 20th. North of 53 is May 1st. Eight fires have been reported to date; 25 fires were reported by this date last year.

We do not expect to have the same high number of spring fires as we experienced last year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rupertsland. Mr. Min ister. HON. S. USKIW: Sorry, Mr. Chairman, I should continue my response to the Memb er for Emerson. With respect to the water bombers, we presently operate three CL- 215 water bom bers, and they are supplie d and maintained by the Department of Highways. They are used exclusiv ely by the Department of Na tu ral Resources for fire suppression operations.

The member probably is aware the CL-215 is a special purpose airc raft and is not suitable for other purposes such as hauling freight or sprayings - purely for fire suppression. We are signatory to a federal-provincial agreement with respect to a co-operative supply of CL-215 s. This agreement provides for the interprovincial sharing of CL-2 15 water bombers during periods of emergency. The Federal Government buys one CL-215 and provides it to Manitoba, and Manitoba purchases one outright at a cost of $6.2 million in 1984 dollars.

The federal CL-215 will be delivered on April 1, 1986, and the Manitoba CL-2 15 will be delivered April 1, 1988, and we of cou rse deploy these throughout the province as requi red during the fire seaso n, and average approxi mately 275 flying hours per person per machine or per plane. MR. A. DRIEDGER: I don't want to get ahead of the member for Rupertsl and, but I wanted some clarification. At the present time, we have th ree water bombers and we have two more coming based on an agreement with the Federal Government.

We also have the option, if I unde rstand that correctly, an agreement with other provinces in terms of being able to draw on other units as well. Is that from across Canada or is that just with the neighbouring provinces, or how do they work that? HON. S. USK IW: it's an agreement right across Canada, Mr. Chairman. MR. A. DRIEDGER: How many machines would really be available then in that respect if you had a very dry summer, any idea? HON. S. USKIW: Fifteen CL-215 s. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rupertsland.

Wednesday, 17 April, 1985 MR. E. HARPER: I just wanted to ask the Minister in respect to the reserves in the North. Sometimes there are forest fires that may develop near a reserve or on a reserve and usually the band mem bers go and put the fire out. Usually they don't have any budgets for that. Our Department of Indian Affairs doesn't allo cate any budget for the band and usually there is some agreement between th e reserve and also the conservation officer in our Natural Resources Department to help put the fire out. Could you elaborate on the policy in terms of recovery losses of the money spent to the bands?

HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, we have to have a set of priorities on how we respond to those kinds of problems, and the first one of course has to do with respect to the protection of human life. The second priority is property, and of course beyond that are the resources. With respect to activities on reserves we do respond and, of course, whatever the costs are, we do bill them directly to the Department of Indian Affairs. MR. E. HARPER: I had a letter sent to me from one of the bands inquiring about the recovery of the money that is spent to putting the fire out.

They sent it to Indian Affairs and they sent it back and told them it was the responsibility of Natural Resources. They also forwarded it back to the Natural Resources, and they said that it wasn't their responsibility. A MEMBER: lt's a grey area. lt's the way they do things. MR. E. HARPER: I know how bureaucrats work, but I have had the experience of working with the Natural Resources when I was Chief in Red Sucker Lake. About a mile away, there was a forest fire, and we called the conservation office, which was located in Island Lake 50 mites away.

By the time they responded, it was sort of late in the evening, toward the dusk of the evening. By that time, we had it in control. The conservation officer came in and said, well, we have these eight trained personnel that he had. There is no need for the band members to get involved. What happened was the fire picked up and they lost all their fire equipment, their hoses and everything else. If it was left to us, we would have put it out. We would have had it all put out, you know. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, perhaps there is some confusiOn. We recover our own costs from the Department of Indian Affairs.

We do not recover the costs of the band. That is something that they have to deal with them selves. If there is either staffing or whatever the band supplies in order to protect the band area or the reserve area, we're not involved in that with respect to recovery of costs. MR. E. HARPER: I think that policy should be explained to the band members so they know the channels and how to react to it. If it's a forest fire maybe, they have to watch for a while until they can see who comes in. But those are some of the things that the band members have to deal with.

I would appreciate it if something 989 could be put in writing to the bands so that they know how to proceed. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, that is a very valid point. Maybe what we should do annually is send a letter out to all of the reserves, to the band leadership, explaining what the rules are and how they participate. That way, it would remove any ambiguity or doubt or whatever to what each role should be. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

On the last point of the damages on the reserves, that also applies to Emergency Measures where we would deal with the movements of people, If necessary, in the event of a flood and provide assistance for them. Any costs thereon would be transferred back to the federal people. If it's going to be done for Natural Resources and fire disaster, it should also be done in conjunction with the Emergency Measures Organization to cover other situations as well. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Chairman, I have a series of question that I want to pursue in this area regarding forest fires.

Especially, I'm going to look at the extreme northern part of the province where we have, in many cases, desolate areas. What is the normal approach by the department?

We sometimes hear of fires being out of control, is it the intent of the department to try and control all the fires, even the ones that are up North, because many of them are in areas where I don't know whether fire always create damage, but in some areas I think the costs of trying to control some of them, especially in some of the boggy areas up there - when a person flies over it, you wonder an effort would be made to try and necessarily control these fires.

The kind of timb er that Is involved is very marginal probably and never been harvested anyway. lt's proba bly, you know, a natural state of reforestation to some degree. I just wonder, are all fires - do we try and control all fires or do we let some of them automatically just burn? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I don't believe that we have ever been able to control all of them if there are many at one given moment. Therefore, there has to be a priority list or a means of deciding which ones we respond to first. lt is all based on a criteria relevant only on the basis of value of the risk involved.

That is, if you have a forest that is of marginal economic value, you would rate that one lower than one of maximum economic value. So all of those judgments have to be based on that kind of criteria. Of course, if you are talking about human life and commun ities, then they rate ahead of all of that. lt's common sense, in essence, that has to apply. MR. A. DRIEDGER: I'd like to now pursue the area of burning permits to some degree with the Minister which always creates a certain amount of concern, I suppose. The people that live close to the forest areas are

Wedneeday, 17 April, 1985 probably a little bit more conscientious about it, and realize the implications of fires in that area. When we get into the organized municipalities, there always seems to be a conflict between individuals who want to do some burning, they have been brushing land. Even the smallest type of burning that takes place, we know it's obviously going to be there. lt appears that, at times, people are maybe a little over-zealous in terms of not issuing permits, and as a result it creates all kinds of problems sometimes.

I would like to have the Minister maybe just give us an indication as to the criteria for burning, because there is a time period - I don't know exactly when it starts - when if you want to do any burning, you have to apply for a permit. I wonder if there is a bit of a differential based on the organized municipalities where, in most cases, the danger and the consequences are not as dramatic as when you do it close to forested areas. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I think what I should indicate to the Member for Emerson is that we have, in fact, rethought our whole position with respect to that question.

What will apply more than anything else from here on in will be common sense related to the individual situation, rather than a rule that would apply regardless of individual circumstance. That is going to be a little more cumbersome to implement, because we will still retain the permit requirement because we have to know where the fires are, who is setting them and for what purpose. But the resource people out in the field are going to have to work out a common-sense approach with the individual wanting to do the burning, based on local circumstance and individual circumstance.

So we won't have the problem of universal regulation being the law of the land being applied across the board, even though those are not necessarily important or necessary for that particular situation. We have developed this as a result of our discussions with people that are doing the burning, and I think we're putting together a brochure sort of as a guideline on how to handle that question, rather than as a regulation. I have sent - has this letter gone out? - a letter with respect to the new policy and, if members wish, I am prepared to xerox and table that with members opposite.

Perhaps someone can arrange for that. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Chairman, I want to compliment the Minister again, and I am beginning to wonder if he will be doing this through the whole Estimates here. I certainly appreciate his comment about the common­ sense approach in that aspect of it, because I think maybe some of that was lacking in the past. If we are looking at it in a different direction, I think many people will be pleased about that. I certainly feel much better about that aspect of it. I would like to deal just briefly then with the peat moss burning aspect of it.

There has been a lot of pressure that has come down from various groups and organizations, I suppose, in terms of abolishing the burning of peat moss. I wonder if the Minister could maybe indicate what their approach is going to be in that, because to the farmers involved, and I think many of them are in his constituency that are involved, possibly his and the Minister of Municipal Affairs where a lot of the peat moss is being burned.

But maybe just to clarify that, many of the people that actually have been buying Crown lands or purchasing some of these lands that have a depth of 4 or 5 feet, or 3 or 4 feet, however many feet of peat moss on top with very good productive soil underneath, the only feasible way to remove that to make good arable land, and some of it is very good arable land underneath the peat moss, has been the process of burning off the peat moss. There has been a Jot of criticism directed towards that, and I want to speak in justification of the farmers that have bought this land with that in mind.

If they cannot use that approach to get rid of the peat moss, it puts them in a dilemma. I am wondering, before I get critical of that aspect of it, whether I could maybe have the Min ister's approach on that aspect as well. HON. S. USKIW: The rules that I have just enunciated apply to peat burning as well.

The member will probably observe in the course of the days and months ahead that the seasonality of burning is going to be removed to a large extent. lt's our hope that with proper care and consideration, when we issue the permit, that we will be able to burn peat at a time of the year when it burns best and smokes the least. That's a major change. We will have to monitor the performance of that policy to make sure that it is indeed working to everyone's advantage, but we believe that if properly handled it can be done better that way.

The problem with restricting peat burning to the wet season is that you get more smoke than fire and therein lies the hazard along the roadways and so on, which environmentalists complain about and people using the highways complain about. So we are attempting to deal with that in a way that will accommodate the need and at the same time minimize the adverse effects on the public as a whole. The same letter applies to those people. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Well, I am sure the people in the area that are Involved with the burning of peat moss will be pleased to hear that, because I think those people that know what burning peat moss involves. Once you start the fire, it's virtually impossible to put it out and you cannot control which direction the wind comes from, so as a result, sometimes on highways, I realize the danger aspect of it.

But might I suggest that maybe in cases like that there could be signs posted that this is a peat moss burning area, or something to that effect, so that people would drive with extreme caution when the smoke happens to be coming across the highways.

I am not belittling the danger aspect of it, but to really understand the whole situation as once a fire is burning, you don't just shut it off when the wind doesn't come the right way. lt continues burning, and that is where there has been some confusion in the minds of the public that when these peat moss fires burn that · they should not be burning. 1t is a way of life out there and it is a matter of maybe using, as the Minister has indicated, instead of issuing the permits for wintertime, maybe by 'lllowing them to burn in summer, at the dry 990

Wednesday, 17 April, 1985 time which was restricted till now I understand, that probably the problem will be of a smaller nature. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(m)(1) -p ass; 2.(m)(2)- pass. 2.(n)( 1) Fire Suppression - Operations: Salaries; 2.(n)

(2) Other Expen ditur es; 2.(n)

(3) Nor thern Development Agreement - the Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: 2.(n) (2) - Could we ha ve a breakdown of the $3,90 1, 800.00? lt's the same both years. Is this a set fee, or it's shared with the feds, or what's it for? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, we know that there is going to be a certain cost there annually and so we usually apply the sort of best intelligence to putting a number on that. If we overexpend, we end up with Special Warrants; if we underexpend, we lapse it, I believe. So it's an open-ended thing because you can't put a cap on a fire. MR. W. McKENZIE: Okay. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, just before we leave this

section of Fire Suppression, I believe I can probably speak for all people of Manitoba. To the Minister we would like to say we hope that we have a very reasonable year with forest fires this year. HON. S. USKIW: Good idea; I go for that. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(n) (1)- pass; 2. (n)(2)- pass; 2.(n)(3)- pass. Resolution 11 9: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $19 ,440,800 for Natural Resources, Regional Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1986- pass. Item No. 3.( a)( 1) Engin eering and Construct ion, Administration: Salaries; 3.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Emerson. / MR. A. DRIEDGER: Yes, under 3.(a), Engineering and Construction, my No. 1 question, is this for a physical construction of grains and stuff like that, or is this the planning aspect of it that we are discussing here? Probably the physical aspects of it come under the last portion there. I suppose at that time, the Minister, will he be presenting this year's program prior to that because· possibly questions - it would help, because I believe the engineering and construction under this end of it relates to the physical construction end of it? HON. S.

USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to do that. I have no problem with respect to giving the member an advanced copy, that is in advance of when we are going to consider that item. This particular

section relates to the planning and project management section, which is the backup administration. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Well, I suppose it doesn't really matter. We can do it whichever way the Minister feels comfortable with, because somewhere along the line 991 members will be wanting to discuss major projects. Members will be wanting to discuss the certain projects in the areas or the non-committed portion of it, whatever the case may be, somewhere along the line. We can deal with the engineering aspect of it here and then deal with the major projects later on, whichever way the Minister feels. HON. S.

USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, the member would agree, then, at the next meeting I am prepared to table that document for his benefit. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Agreed. HON. S. USKIW: That's fine. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Okay, Mr. Chairman, then under this

section here, I believe many of the projects that are being consid ered where we need engineering services, survey work, etc., the planning. Is this the area that would be dealing with projects on a joint basis with Ducks Unlimited, for example? HON. S. USKIW: Well, I presume if there are major projects under way where we have engineering input, yes. MR. A. DRIEDGER: The reason I raised that is because I bel ieve that Ducks Unlimited has various projects within the provinc e that they are working on or contemplating.

In most cases it obviously involves water and diking and stuff of this nature, dams, etc., and I wonder if the Minister could maybe indicate as to the kind of working relationship that develops between the engineers from Ducks Unlimited and the engineers within his own department on some of these projects, because I would like to maybe illustrate a specific project. Maybe I should do that to just give an example of what I'm talking about.

I'l l relate to the Rat River Containment Project in the southeast portion. lt happens to be in my constituency as well, but something that has been contemplated since when I was reeve, which was quite a few years ago, when the banks of the Rat River were burned out at that time during the dry seaso n, as a result water was channelling was from the Rat River into the Gilbert Creek and was flooding th rough various rural municipalities, namely, La Broquerie, Hanover, De Sala berry, that area there. For years we've been trying to work out some kind of possible solution to the problem.

We're at that point now where, in conjunction with the planning that is taking place, I think we're looking at between 5,000 and 10,0 00 acres of land that is being designated as a wildlife management area, and involves the containment on one side of the Rat River so that it will not create any flooding problems in rura l municipalities. The LGD of Stuartburn just passed a resolution a short while ago authorizing co-operation in that respect together but jointly with Ducks Unlimited and Water Resources.

What I am trying to arrive at here with the Minister is: what kind of a working relationship do we develop because part of that project will be undertaken by the engineers from Water Resources and part of it by the

Wednesday, 17 April, 1985 engine ers from Ducks Unlimited? Why I'm trying to esta blish the kind of working relationshp that is going to be developed, rather than have the buck passed up and down, I would like to have a bit of an insight as to how you view the operation and mechanics of it. Would the Ducks Unlimited be the authority or is Water Resources going to be the major authority with Ducks Unlimited tying in with that just so we can proceed with the initiation of it? HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, the Ducks Unlimited engineering people do liaise with our eng ineers and with our wildlife people on all of their projects basically If they are of any sign ificance. All of the hoops that they must go through to get a proposal approved take place before we get into a commitm ent with them through Water Resources. The approvals under planning mechanisms, municip al or planning districts, the Interdepartmental Planning Board is involved. I think the environmental agencies are involved. Conservation agencies are involved.

All of that happens before we get into a sort of legal relationship, if you like, or supportive relationship to their project. So we're sort of at the end of that. All of the public interfa cing is already behind us at that stage. So once they have that approval then we are in a position to acknowledge that, yes, all of that has been processed and properly cross-referenced, and we would not be violating anyone's authority by being Involved with them on their project in whatever capacity it is that we are from time to time. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Is it then the responsibility of Ducks Unlimited to go through all these hoops and get all the clearances and when they've done all that they come back to this Minister's department to get their final package put together? Or is it a joint venture? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I gather that it can work either way. They can be the proponent and go through all the hoops, but quite often what we usually do or what we may do is establish a committee or a board for a given area where that board is com posed of local people that have an interest in the project, who then are part of the process as well.

So it's not a hard and fast rule, if you like. MR. A. DRIEDGER: This category would not have any involvement, for example, in the Atikaki Park, the designations of parks or stuff like that. This is strictly on the basis of Water Resources and the construction end of it. Fine. MR." CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr .

Chairman, I h av e. some questions here for the Minister, and I don't know whether he should deal with them or later on in the Water Resources fiel d. it's regard ing water from Saskatchewan flowing across into the municipalities in Saskatchewan and flooding the farm lands in two municip alities in my constituency and I know that the Prairie Provinces Water Board was dealing with it. The problem is prevailing against the farmers. I'm told today in Saskatchewan, they have these PFRA pumps and 992 they're really moving the water, so it's flooding Manitoba farm land again.

Would it be better when we do Water Resources and Mr. Weber is here, or is it now? - (In terjection) - no. I can raise it. Well, where the watershed is the water comes in from the Assiniboine River. The municipalities involved are the Rural Municipality of Russell and the Rural Muni cipality of Shellmouth. On the Saskatchewan side, the mun icipalit ies involved are Calder and Langenburg. This has been a longstanding problem. The farmers in Saskatchewan have learned that the water flows much quicker to the watershed which is the Assiniboine River if they