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April 22, 2010

39th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2010-Apr-22 (PDF)

L020 - Thu 22 Apr 2010 / Jeu 22 avr 2010

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Thursday 22 April 2010 Jeudi 22 avril 2010

ORDERS OF THE DAY

CREATING THE FOUNDATION

FOR JOBS AND GROWTH ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 POSANT LES FONDATIONS

DE L’EMPLOI ET DE LA CROISSANCE

ENERGY CONSUMER

PROTECTION ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR LA PROTECTION

DES CONSOMMATEURS D’ÉNERGIE

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER

ORAL QUESTIONS

GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY

CURRICULUM

ENERGY CONSERVATION

PUBLIC TRANSIT

PUBLIC SECTOR ACCOUNTABILITY

TAXATION

PESTICIDES

TAXATION

MINING INDUSTRY

ENERGY POLICIES

WASTE DIVERSION

MANUFACTURING JOBS

MUNICIPAL FUNDING

POWER PLANT

SOCIAL SERVICES

DEFERRED VOTES

CREATING THE FOUNDATION

FOR JOBS AND GROWTH ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 POSANT LES FONDATIONS

DE L’EMPLOI ET DE LA CROISSANCE

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

VICTIMS OF CRIME

PHARMACISTS

RENEWABLE ENERGY

ORGAN AND TISSUE DONATION

CULTURE DAYS

LEARNING ENRICHMENT FOUNDATION

PHARMACISTS

PRESCRIPTION DRUGS

REPUBLIC OF TURKEY

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

STANDING COMMITTEE ON REGULATIONS AND PRIVATE BILLS

MOTIONS

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ PUBLIC BUSINESS

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

EARTH DAY

ONTARIO COACHES WEEK

EARTH DAY

ONTARIO COACHES WEEK

EARTH DAY

PETITIONS

POWER PLANT

ONTARIO PHARMACISTS

IDENTITY THEFT

POWER PLANT

POWER PLANT

ELMVALE DISTRICT HIGH SCHOOL

FIREARMS CONTROL

TAXATION

MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS

GO TRANSIT TUNNEL

PRIVATE MEMBERS’

PUBLIC BUSINESS

ENHANCING THE ABILITY

OF INCOME SUPPORT RECIPIENTS

TO BE FINANCIALLY

INDEPENDENT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 REHAUSSANT

L’AUTONOMIE FINANCIÈRE

DES BÉNÉFICIAIRES

DU SOUTIEN DU REVENU

SEPARATION DISTANCES

FOR NATURAL GAS

POWER PLANTS ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR L’ÉTABLISSEMENT

DE DISTANCES DE SÉPARATION

POUR LES CENTRALES ÉLECTRIQUES

AU GAZ NATUREL

ESSENTIAL PUBLIC TRANSIT

SERVICES ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR LES SERVICES

DE TRANSPORT EN COMMUN ESSENTIELS

ENHANCING THE ABILITY

OF INCOME SUPPORT RECIPIENTS

TO BE FINANCIALLY

INDEPENDENT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 REHAUSSANT

L’AUTONOMIE FINANCIÈRE

DES BÉNÉFICIAIRES

DU SOUTIEN DU REVENU

SEPARATION DISTANCES

FOR NATURAL GAS

POWER PLANTS ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR L’ÉTABLISSEMENT

DE DISTANCES DE SÉPARATION

POUR LES CENTRALES ÉLECTRIQUES

AU GAZ NATUREL

ESSENTIAL PUBLIC TRANSIT

SERVICES ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR LES SERVICES

DE TRANSPORT EN COMMUN ESSENTIELS

SEPARATION DISTANCES

FOR NATURAL GAS

POWER PLANTS ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR L’ÉTABLISSEMENT

DE DISTANCES DE SÉPARATION

POUR LES CENTRALES ÉLECTRIQUES

AU GAZ NATUREL

ESSENTIAL PUBLIC TRANSIT

SERVICES ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR LES SERVICES

DE TRANSPORT EN COMMUN ESSENTIELS

ORDERS OF THE DAY

RETIREMENT HOMES ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR LES MAISONS

DE RETRAITE

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Good morning. Please remain standing for the Lord’s Prayer, followed by a moment of silence for inner thought and personal reflection.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

CREATING THE FOUNDATION

FOR JOBS AND GROWTH ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 POSANT LES FONDATIONS

DE L’EMPLOI ET DE LA CROISSANCE

Resuming the debate adjourned on April 19, 2010, on the motion for second reading of Bill 16,

An Act to implement 2010 Budget measures and to enact or amend various Acts / Projet de loi 16, Loi mettant en oeuvre certaines mesures énoncées dans le Budget de 2010 et édictant ou modifiant diverses lois.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Pursuant to the order of the House dated April 21, 2010, I am now required to put the question.

On April 14, Mr. Phillips moved second reading of Bill 16,

An Act to implement 2010 Budget measures and to enact or amend various Acts. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour will say “aye.”

All those opposed will say “nay.”

In my opinion, the ayes have it.

A recorded vote being required, it will be deferred until after question period today.

Second reading vote deferred.

ENERGY CONSUMER

PROTECTION ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR LA PROTECTION

DES CONSOMMATEURS D’ÉNERGIE

Resuming the debate adjourned on April 13, 2010, on the motion for third reading of Bill 235,

An Act to enact the Energy Consumer Protection Act, 2010 and to amend other Acts / Projet de loi 235, Loi édictant la Loi de 2010 sur la protection des consommateurs d’énergie et modifiant d’autres lois.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Further debate?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: I’ll just pick up where I left off when I started my lead last week. Although I think that some of the measures in the first half of this bill that deal with energy retailers are useful—too limited, in my opinion, but useful—the second part of this bill, which deals with sub-metering and smart meters for multi-unit residential, is a profoundly problematic piece of legislation and, I think, is a move backward in terms of what has to happen in this province.

That change will substantially reduce the financial incentives for landlords to invest in energy efficiency in their multi-unit buildings. It will become an impediment, a barrier, to actually dealing with environmental and energy issues. That’s a substantial problem.

Secondly, because it sets up the framework for moving the cost of energy in apartment units to tenants, it means that those who in the future will be responsible for energy costs will be the people who don’t have the legal right to actually modify the building that they live in, nor will they have the financial resources to make the changes that are necessary.

Lastly, it will make life much more difficult for tenants. Over 30% of Ontario’s tenants now live at or below the poverty line. They are not in a situation where they can take substantial increases in their cost of living. They are in a situation where this government should be protecting their interests and making sure that their lives and their housing are affordable. Those are the main arguments.

Let’s split the bill into two pieces. The first piece deals with energy retailers. When the minister introduced the bill, he said that he was dealing with 100 to 150 complaints per week about energy marketers, energy retailers. He talked about the pressure that’s applied to customers, to the general public. I for one have no difficulty in agreeing with the minister on that. Absolutely, that is the case. I have constituents coming in to me, talking about how they have been pressed hard at the door to hand over their bill so that a retailer, a salesperson, can get the account number. Once they have that account number, the games can begin.

Others have been hit historically by the automatic renewal. A business quite close to my constituency office came to see me a few years ago because that business’s bookkeeper had gotten a notice from the company saying, “Your contract is about to expire;” and then further down in the letter, “If you don’t get in touch with us, the contract will automatically be renewed for five years.” The bookkeeper made a mistake. He wasn’t used to contracts that renewed themselves in that fashion. He threw the letter out. The local business person was re-signed up against his will and was paying dramatically more for the gas in his office than I was paying in my constituency office.

These are companies that make their money by skimming off the top of people in this province. These are companies that make it very difficult to get out and charge people a lot of money to get out of these contracts, yet, as I will touch on later, make sure that their interests are well protected in their arrangements with consumers.

The core of this retail marketing of gas and electricity doesn’t make sense for this province. It simply imposes a layer of bureaucracy on the energy consumers of this province that doesn’t make their lives better, doesn’t make energy more affordable and, in the end, undermines the well-being of our economy. There is no advantage to people paying for these contracts.

We don’t have the numbers before us today on the profits that are made by these retailers of electricity and gas, but it’s hard for me to imagine that it’s not a very lucrative business. I can tell you, from talking anecdotally to a former salesperson who was going door to door selling these contracts, that he made $100 for each person he signed up. So if you’re out there now watching the Legislature and you’ve signed one of these contracts, right off the top you have to pay $100 that goes to that salesperson. That doesn’t help you. It doesn’t help you with your energy bill.

I was in London, Ontario, about a month ago and passed the office of Summitt Energy. They had a sign out front saying, “Jobs on offer. Make $52,000 per year.” I look at the numbers: at $100 a contract, 10 contracts a week is $1,000. That’s two contracts a day for a five-day work week; I’m sure it’s doable. There are people out there making $40,000 to $50,000 a year selling these contracts. But in the end, do they provide any value to this society? Do they actually increase our wealth? No. What they do is skim off this society. That’s what is going on. It doesn’t build the common wealth of this province.

When the minister first made his comments, he said that thousands of people are employed in these retailing operations, and he’s right; there’s no doubt about it. But I have to say that thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands could be employed putting in place energy-efficiency measures for homes, apartment buildings and commercial buildings. In fact, a study that was done a year ago showed that a million construction workers would be needed to retrofit houses right across Canada. It would generate a million person-years of employment.

There, you actually create something that is worthwhile for society. You’re not just buying and selling. Buying and selling is a good thing, but you’re not doing it solely as a way of extracting money from the population.

The minister’s argument would have been just as strong in the United States or here in Canada when we were dealing with the private health insurance industry. Before medicare came in, before we had single-payer insurance, we had large competing bureaucracies selling health insurance. One could say, “Why shut down those large competing bureaucracies? People are employed.” In the end, you make a decision to have a one-payer system so that you aren’t wasting money. That’s what we’re doing here now. We are taking the labour of many thousands of people and using it unproductively, instead of actually reducing energy consumption the way we need to.

I have to say that I can see some value for people who want to pay a premium to ensure there is an investment made in green power. I might argue for a change in the business model, but I wouldn’t block someone from actually making that contribution to society so that we accelerate the technological change, the transformation we have to go through. I can see that exception. But after that, this retailing of gas and electricity by these energy marketers is a waste of our society’s wealth and time. However, getting rid of that practice is not what is on the table.

What is on the table is a series of measures meant to further protect consumers from an irrational system. It’s meant to protect people from excess.

As I said in my opening remarks, there is no doubt: I’ve talked to seniors who have been pushed very hard at their doors by salespeople who will not take no for an answer. As you probably have, Speaker—in fact, since you’ve been here a number of years, I have no doubt that you’ve done this—I have gone door to door through my riding, talked to a wide variety of people and encountered many people who are vulnerable, who are living in their homes, who are in a situation where their ability to fully grasp what is going on around them is more limited than it used to be and who are vulnerable to high-pressure salespeople who come to their doors.

I referred to a salesperson that I talked to earlier who made $100 each time he sold one of these retail contracts. Well, the other thing that person had to say to me was that he learned very quickly that if he spent half an hour explaining to people how these contracts worked, no one would buy. They would just say, “No, thanks. Now I understand. You’re asking me to pay this big premium so that I won’t have a volatile energy price some time in the future. I’m willing to pay a lower price now and take my chances later.” He said, “Don’t do that. Don’t spend half an hour talking to people. They won’t buy. Just get them to sign.”

I’ve talked to my constituents who have asked those people at the door, “Who are you? Are you”—in this case—“from Toronto Hydro?” In Hamilton, “Are you from the local utility?” And they say, “No, we’re the people who provide the power to the utilities.” From the testimony we got in committee, these retailers buy their electricity from generators, and that is the source of the power they’re paying for in the system. They don’t supply the power to the local utilities. That is not true.

In the course of clause-by-clause debate, I moved that we stop this door-to-door sales process. I have to say that, in practical terms, this would mean these companies could market on the Internet, they could do telemarketing, they could set up booths at shopping malls—all kinds of things like that. But their ability to get at the vulnerable and to get at their utility bills, take them and take down the numbers would be eliminated.

The failure to pass that amendment is a substantial problem, because I believe that the bulk of this business relies on high-pressure sales to the vulnerable and to those who are at a disadvantage. And if these companies continue to sell door to door, even with what is put in place, you can expect that we will continue to get an ongoing litany of complaints about abuses.

In this case, strangely enough, I hope I’m wrong. I hope it’s successful. I hope I have misread it. The reality is that if these safeguards are effective, most of these companies will not be able to function, because they live on high-pressure sales. If the government is wrong and these companies continue their high-pressure tactics, we’ll be back here debating this again, because the people of this province don’t want to have to deal with con artists.

I use the phrase “con artists” because people do get conned. My guess is that there are people out there who are selling this who are straightforward. But there are a lot of con artists, and that means that they get done in. They will be looking for a way around whatever rule has been put forward, and that will cause substantial problems for all of us.

I want to just read this into the record from an official notice—a media release—of the Ontario Energy Board, April 1, 2010: “OEB Imposes Conditions on Renewal of Universal Energy Gas Marketer Licence.” You should know that Universal Energy, now owned by Just Energy, is a company whose marketing practices were such that the Ontario Energy Board wouldn’t give them a five-year renewal of their licence; it gave them a two-year renewal of their licence. There were a lot of complaints about their operations—justified complaints, apparently.

So you out there who are watching this debate should remember the name Universal Energy/Just Energy. This company is one that has been put on watch by the Ontario Energy Board.

In the course of the hearings about these companies, we had a presentation by Councillor Maurice McMillan, ward 2, from the city of Orillia. He had Orillia Power do an analysis of the cost to consumers of being on the RPP, regulated power plan; the power provided by Orillia Power, the local utility; and the power that was purchased through one of these retailers. I’m not going to go through all the lines, but the bottom line is that it cost substantially more—$75 more—for those on the retail marketing company’s system. They got stuck with a higher power bill. That’s the reality.

For those of you who have a retailer at the door, remember this: You will be paying more. You will take a hit. This is something that is going on in this province, is not curbed in the way that it needs to be curbed and, frankly, is a problem that I think will come back to this Legislature.

All that said, generally speaking, I’d vote for measures to limit these retailers more. If this bill was only to do with those retailers, I’d vote for it reluctantly but vote for it and press for stronger measures.

The more problematic part of the bill has to do with sub-metering in apartment buildings. Most of the protections that are supposed to be in this bill are dependent on the regulations. Those haven’t been drafted, so it’s very difficult for those who want to criticize the bill to actually fully know what’s on the table, what will be there to actually protect tenants or not protect tenants. The reality, in my opinion, is that the government should not proceed with sub-metering in multi-residential apartment buildings, and I’ll talk to the economic and environmental rationale for that. They should not proceed with smart metering in these multi-unit buildings.

I believe that conservation and demand management programs for landlords and tenants are what’s really needed if we’re going to deal with energy consumption in multi-unit buildings. Insulation programs; solar heating and hot water programs that are cost-competitive with electricity and gas; and education and social marketing, targeted at landlords and tenants, are the kinds of programs that are needed to actually make a difference.

The current government initiative to expand smart metering into the multi-unit residential sector won’t meet the overall energy conservations goals that this province requires. Given that the government seems to be going forward with it—it still has regulations to write—it should be seriously considering a low-income rate assistance program, a publicly funded multi-residential conservation program and placing an onus on the landlords to apply to the Landlord and Tenant Board for permission to install suite meters, subject to meeting stringent requirements. The burden shouldn’t be placed on tenants to apply for rent decreases after the fact.

The larger context that we’re dealing with when it comes to electricity prices is that this Liberal government has made substantial mistakes in its decisions around energy policy. As much as it talks about the Green Energy Act,

an act that I voted for, the bulk of what it’s investing in is nuclear power and gas-fired power. Those are very expensive options. Investment in those options also means increased investment in transmission lines, a very expensive option.

Not just tenants but homeowners are having to deal with higher and higher bills because decisions have been made around electricity investment, hydro investment, that are not the least-cost, environmentally sound options, but in fact very expensive options that are not helpful to the environment.

Under the current system of vacancy decontrol, there’s no reason to believe that shifting the burden of costs from landlords to tenants will result in lower rents, particularly when you have a vacancy. When a unit is vacant, no tenant has to be asked their permission to have a meter put in. You can expect that those meters will be put in each and every time that a unit is vacated. The future tenants will have to deal with the consequences of that.

Tenants could face rent hikes due to landlord applications for above-guideline increases for retrofit work. That will affect the ongoing affordability of rental stock, particularly in large urban centres. Tenants will be forced to pay for electricity service directly, without any control over the factors which could reduce bills, such as the quality of appliances or the building envelope.

I’ve had the opportunity to be a property manager. I’ve dealt with buildings that were very old; I’ve dealt with buildings that were fairly modern. The reality is that two thirds of people’s energy costs relate to heating and cooling on the one side—temperature conditioning—and hot water. That’s two thirds of the cost. If you are in a building that is inadequately insulated, that is leaky, has a lot of cold air flowing in in the winter or cool air flowing out in the summer, then you are going to have substantial problems with keeping yourself comfortable in that unit.

If you are in a high-rise building and you don’t have either the legal authority or the money to put in proper double- or triple-glazed windows, if you don’t have the money to put in place the insulation that is required—and frankly, you couldn’t do it; legally, you don’t have the right—then your ability to influence two thirds of your energy bill is not there. You are stuck.

What this bill assumes is that every unit is identical, every unit has the same services, every unit has the same kinds of walls and windows, and it’s just simply a question of tenants behaving badly or behaving well. But that is not the reality. Landlords control the factors which have the greatest impact on the actual temperature in units. Landlords decide what kind of appliances—stoves and refrigerators—they put into units. I know in this bill there’s mention of setting the energy standard for those appliances. Will it be set at the highest current standard and adjusted as those standards rise?

I want to see that, and I want to know if it will be enforced, because there is a huge problem with lack of enforcement.

The way your building is oriented will determine whether you are very hot in the summer, or cool; very cold in the winter, or warmer. I’ve lived in a high-rise in this city on Broadview Avenue that had a north-south orientation. The units on the west face getting the west sun in midsummer were incredibly hot. In winter, they were the warmer units. Units on both sides of the building had the same single-pane glazing that leaked air around the frames.

Under this legislation, tenants in buildings where there is a substantial temperature difference from one side of the building to the other are all going to get hit with the cost of the energy and will have no ability to correct the fundamental problems, and the landlords will no longer have an incentive to act because the bulk of the energy costs will be out of their hands, will not be a concern for them. And frankly, if they were to act, they wouldn’t be able to reap the savings.

So this in fact undermines the incentive for landlords to act and puts us in a situation in these buildings where we are going to have far more problems in the future getting action. These multi-unit buildings in Ontario, many of which were built in the 1960s and 1970s, are what an energy analyst friend of mine called energy pigs. They were built relatively inexpensively. They radiate a lot of heat. They were not built to conserve energy.

So when Mayor Miller of Toronto came forward with his plan for modernizing apartment buildings around Toronto and did a calculation of the energy savings that it would generate, his numbers were very big. The energy savings would pay for the retrofits. That program will be far less attractive to landlords under this regime.

I want to speak briefly about findings in the United States on these matters. The housing and urban development department in the United States did a study a few years ago looking at the impact of different measures on energy consumption in their buildings. That study found that at core, having the tenants pay for their electricity and heating didn’t change the amount of energy consumed in those buildings. So a publicly owned piece of housing stock in one city, where the tenants paid all their energy costs, and a publicly owned building in another city, where the owner paid all the energy costs, had pretty much the same energy consumption.

What they found when they did their analysis was that the big difference was between multiple-unit dwellings and single-family dwellings—a big difference there. Far less energy is consumed in a multi-unit building because you’ve got buildings that have units around them. If you’ve got neighbours on either side of you and above and below, you’re not going to be radiating energy out. You’ve got your energy radiating out into other units.

They looked at the age of buildings. The older a building was, the more it leaked energy and the more the energy costs went up.

So if we put in meters for these tenants, those who live in old buildings will get hit hard; those in new buildings, much less hard. But it is not going to solve the fundamental problem, and that’s what came up in that study as well: You need to invest in actually making the buildings energy efficient if you want to cut their operating costs, their energy costs. That’s the key and that’s the centre of it.

The other thing I want to speak to is the reality that this initiative now opens tenants up to having smart meters installed. There are a few things that I want to touch on here. On January 7 in the Toronto Sun, Jonathan Jenkins reported: “Meters Prove Not So Smart,” talking about the installation and the operation of smart meters in Toronto by Toronto Hydro. He writes: “They promised smart would be cheap, but so far it’s proving more expensive.

“Most Toronto Hydro customers who’ve been on smart meters and time-of-use pricing the longest have actually seen an increase of up to $3 per month.

“The cost of the meter itself also adds an extra $3-$4 a month to local utility bills.”

That’s important, because there is a mass initiative to move forward on these meters, and frankly, they are not going to give the kinds of savings that the government has trumpeted. I have some other notes that I’ll cite on that. But what it will mean for tenants is they’re going to have more difficulties in making ends meet.

In the course of the clause-by-clause debate, I actually sat down, called Toronto Hydro, looked at the bills of tenants. When you do the calculation—Toronto Hydro says it costs about $3 to $4 a month to run a meter. The meters cost $500 installed. I did a very rough calculation, saying 5% interest over 10 years to amortize the meters, so $1 to $2. So it was about 5 bucks a month for that new sub-meter in an apartment building that a tenant will have to pay.

If a tenant isn’t paying for their heating and hot water on their electricity bill, their bill is in the $30- to $36-a-month range. Well, $6 is about 15% of the value of that electricity bill. They would have to save a lot of electricity just to pay for the meter itself—the meter and the monitoring of that meter. In the end, the tenants would get virtually no benefit and, frankly, only one third of the electricity cost in that apartment would be accessible to the tenants’ ability to reduce their costs. They’re imposing this cost on tenants with very little potential that the tenant will actually be able to do anything but pay for the meter.

I’ll go back to smart meters. Jonathan Jenkins reports:

“Toronto Hydro found the actual difference in smart meter bills—up or down—is quite small.

“For 72% who saw their bills rise, the average monthly increase was 90 cents.

“For the roughly 27% who saw decreases, the average was 29 cents per month.”

Why is that? Why is it that people aren’t saving a fortune when they get to do these things, when they get to shift their bills around?

I took an opportunity to print off Toronto Hydro’s graph showing what people pay in what segments of the day. For the winter rates, the peak times, when you pay most, are 7 to 11 in the morning and 5 to 9 at night. I have to say to you, if you get up at 7 in the morning and you have a shower, if you have electric hot water; if you make toast and, if it’s winter, you make some hot cereal, you have a coffee, then it is very difficult for you to avoid having an increased electricity cost.

If you, as I do, turn the heat down overnight and you turn it up when you get up in the morning, something that has been recommended for a long time, then you get hit in that peak period. That’s a situation where people’s choices are relatively limited—they want to have a hot breakfast; they want to be warm; they want to have the lights on when they wake up—so they’re going to get hit with that peak period.

Then from 5 to 9: You get home, say, between 5 and 6 in the evening, you have dinner to make and you’ve got kids who come home. Are you going to keep the lights off in mid-winter when it’s dark? Are you not going to have the radio or television on? Are you not going to cook? The reality is that people are being hit with costs at their peak time of need for electricity. This isn’t a time when everyone is sleeping; this is when they live their lives at home.

They don’t actually find themselves in a position where they can cut an awful lot of their activities, which is why, and I’ll go on to this in another study, people don’t save a lot on these meters, because their fundamental demands and needs come up at these peak times. That’s of consequence.

The other peak period is in the summer, and that’s from noon until 5 p.m. I can actually see where people who go to work during the day can turn down their air conditioning and turn it up again when they come home at night. But I have to say to you, Speaker—and others in this House may have had this experience if they’ve dealt with people who are at home with their kids through the day—if you’re at home with two toddlers through the day, you’re not going to have the house cold in the winter and you’re not going to have it really hot in the summer.

If you’ve got two or three kids in the house, you’re going to look after them, and you’re going to take a hit on your hydro costs. If you’re a senior and your health requires that you keep your temperature at something that’s comfortable, then you know what? You’re going to be in the house and you’re going to turn on that air conditioner even though you’re paying peak price.

The term in economists’ language is “elasticity.” People don’t have a lot of options for moving away from those costs. They absorb them, they take a hit, which is why these meters don’t save an awful lot, although the amount of money that we put into them is somewhere in the range—since I’ve heard two ranges, I’ll quote both—of $600 million to $1 billion. That’s a lot of money to spend on something where people’s options are fairly limited. For $600 million to $1 billion, you can do an awful lot of energy efficiency in this province.

You can use that kind of money to lease high-efficiency appliances, to lease solar hot water heaters, to actually finance an awful lot of changes that would cut people’s living costs. But instead we’ve spent $600 million to $1 billion on the meters whose impact is relatively small because the options people have at the times when they’re getting hit are so limited.

This Liberal government had a study done by a fairly well-respected company, Navigant. They did a study in—it looks like 2007—on smart meters and the impact of those on residential load. Remember, we are spending $600 million to $1 billion, and their calculation was that the reduction in demand would be about 300 megawatts from peak. I have to tell you, for energy efficiency that’s a very expensive investment. That is an extremely expensive investment. For a program that touches every household in this province, that is a very low rate of return. That isn’t what we want to see.

And yet tenants will be exposed to that in its full glory, and they will struggle with those bills. And like many members is this House, I suspect that we all will be dealing with the phone calls and the emails of people who are dealing with energy bills that are problematic.

A report I have here called Advanced Metering Infrastructure—Implications for Residential Customers in New Jersey, produced for the New Jersey Department of Public Advocate, is an important study. It’s an out-of-Ontario study looking at the impact of smart meters in other jurisdictions. Are they economic? Are they useful? Are they producing savings greater than the cost of generating power? Because really, for most energy efficiency measures, that’s cheaper than the combined cost of distribution and generation. So when you do energy efficiency, it’s to avoid the cost of generation and new distribution and transmission lines.

Their experience, and this is their review of utilities making filings to regulatory bodies in the United States, is that “The AMI filings”—we use the term smart meters—“of utilities in other states, and the studies prepared by New Jersey EDCs”—electricity distribution companies—“indicate the total cost of AMI. measured as the net present value of revenue requirements over 15 years, would be greater than the NPV of forecast savings in utility operating costs over the same period.” Breaking that down, smart meters are more expensive than generation and distribution. That is a very expensive energy efficiency measure—very expensive.

They say that “utilities who invest in AMI”—smart meters—“will eventually file for an increase in the distribution service rates in order to recover that shortfall.” In other words, unlike almost all other energy efficiency measures that are popular and have been promoted by utilities around North America, this is one where it’s costing more than generation and distribution. This is an expensive option, and yet we’ve gone into it whole hog and we’re about to extend it to tenants who will not be that grateful for this particular tender of mercy visited upon them.

They talk about the experience in the test programs for these smart meters and say that the expected reductions are based on three major assumptions: reduction in peak use for participating customers; percentage of customers who will voluntarily participate; and long-term persistence of the reductions per participating customer. They note that many of the people who took

part in the initial trials were given appreciation payments, and thus there is a skewing of the numbers that would come out of that. They say that because these meters have only been in for a few years, it is very difficult to say whether people would actually keep to the changes that were projected.

Their conclusion: “Utility investments in AMI,” or smart meters, as we say, “are not the least-cost approach to reducing the annual energy use of residential customers in New Jersey, or the bills and air emissions associated with that annual energy use.” Well, do you know what? I think they’re right. It seems to be the experience with Toronto Hydro so far. In their recommendation to the regulatory bodies, they say, “Are there alternatives to smart meters?” They say yes: “Other utilities have invested in load control and supporting infrastructure for only those circuits where such investments are clearly cost-effective.”

In this province, all the time we have situations where systems and distribution lines are overloaded. You have a choice: You can run another power line over somebody’s property, or you can invest at the end point in reducing demand. There are those in this House who have rights of way on their property, who understand exactly what I’m talking about. It is cheaper for us to look at the system and pick out the areas where strategically we get the best bang for our buck. That isn’t what we have here. That is not what is being visited upon the tenants of this province.

In the end, we have before us a bill that advances a strategy that will be very costly to tenants. We have a strategy that will undermine the financial incentive for landlords to invest in energy efficiency in their buildings. We have a setup for higher electricity bills all around, without the advantage to society or individuals that we need to have from every investment we make. We’re a rich society, but we’re not a society that can afford to throw away $600 million to $1 billion on these kinds of investments.

I am going to urge people, even though there are some useful things in the first half of this bill, to vote against the bill because of the substantial weaknesses, the retrograde reality of the second half of the bill.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Questions and comments?

Mr. Dave Levac: Contrary to my comments before we started, I did pay attention to the member from Toronto–Danforth. I always listen to the member from Toronto–Danforth in his delivery of speeches in this House. I want to thank him for his blunt response to the bill and his participation in the committee.

There are so many things I could go over; let me do it very quickly. The retailers, the suite metering and the deposits and disconnects: There are going to be three ways to cancel contracts: there’s the 10-day cooling-off period; there’s the third-party verification within 10 and 60 days; and there are 30 days—a full 30 days—after receiving your first bill that you are allowed to cancel the contract. We believe we’ve found a balance when it comes to retailing at the door. The member believes that we should be banning it altogether. That is not an option that did not get considered.

That’s a double negative, so let me put it this way: It was considered, and the agencies know that. We think we’ve found a balance to make sure that that gets cleaned up. If it doesn’t, there are other options, and the member is right: we will evaluate that.

What we’re also doing is clearly defining the few issues. Deposits and disconnecting: We’re defining that when the salesperson is at the door, they immediately must verbally identify themselves and disclose who they are and who they’re working for; they need ID badges; they also need training and standards that the industry must provide; and plain language in contracts, in various languages. So we’re looking at all of the avenues that we can correct to make sure that those people at the door are protected as consumers, and all members from all sides of the House agreed that consumer protection was the issue.

Accountability of retailers and the OEB random audits of the retailers: There is going to be even more expectation that they improve.

Regulations in writing: The consultations on the regulation-writing is taking place next year within the year, and we hope we can cover off an awful lot of the issues the member is concerned about.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions and comments?

Mr. Paul Miller: I’d just like to commend the member from Danforth. He did his homework and obviously sits on the committee and had a lot of good input.

I must say that there are a lot of good things in the bill, and any kind of bill like this was long overdue. The consumer abuse that was going on out there was a real tragedy. But as my fellow member stated, it doesn’t go quite far enough. Some of the things in the bill maybe have a negative impact for people who, like he stated, are staying at home at peak times with kids in the winter and summer, and will be utilizing their equipment during those hours. I don’t think it will be beneficial to stay-at-home moms and the elderly. They will be at home all day long a lot of times, and some of them are house-bound.

As you get older, some people require a little more heat. The system is not quite what it was and you require a little more warmth. I know that when my grandparents got older, they liked it a little warmer. It was almost like a steam bath when I went in their house sometimes. It was pretty warm. So I can imagine, or I don’t want to imagine, what their hydro bill will be like or their utility costs, because I think it’ll be—it’s not as if our seniors don’t have enough to deal with, with their fixed incomes, and I think this will be just an additional burden for them.

I don’t think this has been thought out well enough. I think there are certain groups in our society that will benefit from it, and there are many groups that won’t. I think that more input from the public and user groups would have been a good thing to do. So I can safely say that we will probably not be supporting it because it doesn’t go far enough.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions and comments?

Seeing none, the honourable member for Toronto–Danforth has up to two minutes for his response.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Thanks to the members for Brant and Hamilton East–Stoney Creek for listening and for commenting.

I appreciate that, in fact, consideration was given to shutting down the door-to-door sales by these retailers, but I’m sorry that you didn’t come to the conclusion that you were going to do it. I think it would have been a very good step.

I want to say to you, Speaker, that this should be a very clear message to the energy retailers that they are starting to build a political consensus in this province that we are not happy with their operations and that if this comes to the House the next time, there is a very good chance that they will be dispatched, because there is only so much abuse that the public can take. They take a fair amount. It takes a lot to rile them. They have a lot on their minds, but having people come to their doors, aggressively harassing them for their utility bill, and in some cases—and we know it’s true because companies have been charged and convicted—actually having signatures forged for contracts.

It’s clear that the Ontario Energy Board was not happy with Universal Energy when they gave them a limited renewal, not five years or two years. It’s clear that these sorts of practices are hugely problematic both for us as legislators but for the citizens of this province who deserve far better than this. I hope, although I don’t believe, that these measures substantially curtail those abuses.

When it comes to tenants, I don’t believe that what’s in this bill and the direction that’s being taken are going to help the environment. That’s a huge problem. Beyond that, it will hurt tenants, and for that reason alone we won’t be supporting this bill.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further debate?

Mr. Robert Bailey: I’m pleased to rise and join the debate today on Bill 235,

an act respecting energy retailers,

An Act to enact the Energy Consumer Protection Act, 2010 and to amend other Acts.

Since I was first elected in 2007, I have received countless visits and phone calls from my constituents regarding energy retailers. Many of these retailers will be affected by this bill. In fact, my constituency office in Sarnia is often spending hours out of their day assisting the people of Sarnia–Lambton in regard to energy contracts they have signed at their home and at the door.

Recently, I wrote a column that appeared in one of our local weekly periodicals. It was titled, “Do You Know Who’s Knocking at Your Door?” In it, I listed a number of issues that are concerns in Sarnia–Lambton. I won’t go into them today. Many of the members in this House have heard me speak about them—I won’t say ad nauseam but at length from time to time. I won’t say what they are. They don’t have anything to do with this energy bill.

“But, each week”—I’m quoting myself here—“without fail, my office in Sarnia receives your phone calls, letters and visits in regard to the occasional dodgy business practices and, frankly, unfair contracts which have been signed with door-to-door energy retailers.

“Many of us know these ‘energy retailers’ as their agents have knocked at our doors and asked to see our energy bills, almost always promising a better deal. I have heard many accounts from constituents who were under the false impressions that these agents arrived at their door representing these local energy utilities, such as Union Gas or Bluewater Power,” which was not the case.

“These energy retailers promise ‘flat-rate plans’ and ‘price protection’ which will stabilize” my constituents’ “energy rates for a specific period; however, they are not always such a good deal.” In fact, it was often found after the fact when these constituents would present themselves at my office, that they had in fact been “locked into three-or-five year plans at rates which would force them to pay up to twice as much as they would have been charged by the standard local utility! Moreover, what they don’t tell you is that if you to cancel the contract, you could be penalized with a cancellation fee of up to $1,500 or more.”

Our office worked with a number of these constituents to reverse these contracts and remedy these situations. That’s why I am pleased to rise today after many years of pushing this government to act. The government has finally agreed to introduce a bill which will significantly change how energy retailers do business in this province.

Though this bill is more than two years’ overdue, it would prohibit many of the current unfair practices taking place. It would simplify the wording in energy contracts and set down firm rules regarding your ability to cancel contracts with retailers, and it’s about time.

In fact, I’m confident when I say that I know there’s not a single member of this House who hasn’t had some contact with a consumer who has a horror story to tell about an energy retailer or representative of an energy retailer who has come to their door and, thereafter, constituents have come to their office. In fact, in many cases, they can absolutely prove that there was misrepresentation on the part of that agent, which makes it quite clear that it is about time that something was done about this.

Whenever there is an environment in sales where people are going to the door and are clearly misrepresenting themselves by saying things that they have no right to say or promising things that are completely untrue, it must be stopped.

However, at the same time, while I do support the reasons behind bringing forth this legislation to protect consumers, I’m a little concerned about the way it’s being done. In fact, from what I recall, this bill seems awfully similar to a private member’s bill brought forth by the member for—David Ramsay—

Mr. Jeff Leal: Great member.

Mr. Robert Bailey: Yeah, a great member—in November 2008. Timiskaming—the member for Timiskaming. I apologize.

So I ask, if this government believes protecting consumers is a good idea today, why wasn’t it a good idea in November 2008? It’s just a thought.

As my caucus colleague our energy critic previously stated, the exposé that was presented on CBC’s Marketplace early in 2009 was obviously a wake-up call for this government and for anybody who didn’t think there were problems going on in the energy retailing business. These problems needed to be addressed, and I believe that Mr. Ramsay’s bill would have partially done that over a year ago, so I think they’re a little late to the game.

My question is, why did the Minister of Energy—at that time, Minister Smitherman—take so long to react and bring in a piece of obviously good legislation that should have been done a long time ago?

Now, there’s clearly a need for this protection, but there are definitely some issues with this legislation as well. The member for Timiskaming’s bill would have prohibited retailers from entering into contracts with consumers other than those whose names appear on a bill. It would have required the retailer to provide a written copy of the contract and a reaffirmation letter with specific required information, including the price to be paid to the retailer versus the utility. It should also state clearly the terms of the contract and other relevant information.

The bill also made it quite clear that he had reached out not only to us but to members of the third party and to industry representatives like the Ontario Energy Association and discovered many ways to improve the bill. I am worried that in the drafting of this bill the same consultations have not been done. Moreover, I worry about the place that the Ontario Energy Board has been put in with this bill. If you want to ensure that there’s protection—and I support the premise behind the legislation absolutely—why has the Ontario Energy Board been pushed to the back burner?

We already have an Ontario Energy Board which could have been given more teeth for enforcement, but instead it seems that this bill largely avoids working with them.

What I can agree with is this: Will the energy consumer be better off at the end of the day when this legislation is passed than before? Absolutely. Absolutely, the energy consumer, the customer at the door, my constituent, your constituent is going to be better off. We’ve been encouraging the government to bring forth such legislation that would do just that, but at the same time, my concerns with the positioning of the Ontario Energy Board and the government’s seeming lack of consultation with the major players involved in this industry still stand.

Again I ask, if this government believes that protecting consumers is a good idea today, in April 2010, why wasn’t it a good idea in November 2008?

By the time this bill is implemented, I would ask the members watching today and the audience to ask yourselves how many consumers and constituents of ours would have been protected over the last year and a half if the government had acted in the autumn of 2008 rather than sitting on their hands for over a year.

Thank you again for the opportunity to rise and speak in support of this bill.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Questions and comments? Further debate?

Seeing none, Mr. Duguid has moved third reading of Bill 235. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): I didn’t hear the no. I’m sorry.

Be it resolved that the bill do now pass and be entitled as in the motion.

Third reading agreed to.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Orders of the day?

Hon. Gerry Phillips: No further business.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): There being no further business, this House stands in recess until 10:30, at which time we will have question period.

The House recessed from 1003 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Peter Tabuns: I’m pleased to give welcome this morning to the United Nations in Canada group and the UNA youth, who are here to promote the Ripple Effect, their water protection and conservation statement, for Earth Day. They are: from Hamilton, Deanne Durward, Jacob Houpt, Kai Fan and Si Chen; from Walkerton, Katie Schaefer and Braden Weltz; from Quinte, Phil Armstrong, Subhi Kurban and Benisha Kaur; along with regional coordinator Barry Randall and UNA Canada staff and volunteers Dagna Pielaszkiewicz, Rehana Tejpar and Georgina Bencsik. Welcome, one and all.

Mr. Jeff Leal: Just to follow up on the previous member, in the members’ east gallery today we also have some other individuals with the United Nations Association in Canada. We have Hilary Pearson, who is on the national board of directors, and Georgina Bencsik from the United Nations Association in Canada, Toronto regional branch. We have UNA Canada’s Ripple Effect Ontario participants: from Ripple Effect Peterborough, Sam Morrell; from Youth4Water Toronto, Jae Hong Kim, Pia Johnson, Zahrah Munas, Shiré Brandi and Ameera McIntosh. We certainly welcome them today.

Hon. Peter Fonseca: In the east gallery, I’d like to introduce my LA Melanie Wright’s family, who are with us here today visiting from Quebec: her mom, Nancy Wright, and her boyfriend, Andrew Sainsbury.

Mr. Paul Miller: I would like to introduce two friends who are visiting from the great riding of Hamilton East–Stoney Creek: Mary DiBacco and Angela Cansee.

Mr. Bob Delaney: I’d like to introduce some very special guests who are with us today: Mike Duncan and Jean Stilwell, the co-hosts of Good Day GTA on my favourite radio station, Classical 96.3. Please welcome them.

Mr. Tony Ruprecht: On April 23, the people of the Republic of Turkey will be celebrating International Children’s Day. Therefore, in the gallery to help us celebrate this as well—and every member will receive an invitation for Sunday to attend a very special International Children’s Day event put on by the Turkish federation of Canada—I have the pleasure to introduce to you the new Consul General of the Republic of Turkey, Mr.

Mustafa Bilgen; the president of the Federation of Canadian Turkish Associations, Mehmet Bor; the former chief of building, city of Toronto, Yaman Uzumeri; the vice-president of the FCTA, Mr. Ismail Vataner; the president of the Turkish Culture and Folklore Society, Gelal Uçar; the director of the Turkish Federation Community Foundation of Canada, Yildiz Ünsal; and the president of the ITU Alumni Association of Canada, Ahmet Gökgöz. Welcome.

Mr. Michael Prue: It’s my privilege and honour to introduce two guests who are here today, Maxine and Jim Caron, who are here to observe this fine Legislature and all the carryings-on that go on.

Mr. Reza Moridi: It’s my pleasure to welcome my friends Ms. Shayesteh Mahdi and Mr. Amir Ghiassi.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Well, I might as well join the gang. I’d like to introduce Roger Sigouin, mayor of Hearst, who’s here with a delegation from the community of Hearst.

INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I beg to inform the House that I have laid upon the table a copy of an order in council appointing Lynn Morrison as Integrity Commissioner commencing April 13, 2010.

ORAL QUESTIONS

GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY

Mrs. Christine Elliott: My question is for the Acting Premier. Premier McGuinty gagged a family he allowed to be terrorized in Caledonia from saying how much he paid in hush money. He placed a gag order on Carillion Canada, blocking them from telling the public how the McGuinty Liberals made a mess of the bidding process for redevelopment of service centres. He’s put a gag order on mom-and-pop pharmacy operations to block them from telling patients and seniors the alternatives they’ve offered to save money while avoiding cuts to front-line health care under the Liberals’ strong-arm plan. What makes the Premier think he can get away with gagging his opponents?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: It’s very difficult to understand, and perhaps in the supplementary we’ll know what the direction of the question is. Let me just say that if these are supposed attempts at gagging, they clearly haven’t done very well, have they? Because people with the Ontario government—we have an open-door policy to actually talk to our stakeholders on a regular basis. We engage our stakeholders, whether they’re business, individuals or associations representing the people of Ontario. We have a long-standing policy.

Even with our association of municipalities, we actually created a law to mandate consultation, something that your government refused to do and voted against during our initiative.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mrs. Christine Elliott: Here’s the direction of the question: A pattern has developed where Premier McGuinty is caught doing anything he can to avoid accountability. He was caught using the budget bill to cover up his breaking the law by cancelling a public review of the wasteful local health integration networks. He tried to bury a $53-million energy tax on electricity bills. He refuses to release details on the deals he made for 40 US clinics and hospitals to be preferred providers of American health care to Ontario patients.

He told Ontario families he banned untendered contracts, but then he was caught handing out deals to run the Windsor Energy Centre and Casino Niagara, and for consultants at LHINs. Is this pattern of behaviour a bad habit or is it indicative of something else?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: I just want to give a little “that was then, this is now” history. Unlike this member opposite, I was here in this House watching when your party was the government and we had to go digging to find that your Minister of Energy, through an energy agency of the government, took a trip with his family to Euro Disney and hid the expenses. That is the kind of outrage that we, the public, watched in your government. In this government, you can go online and review what it is we’re doing.

In this government, the only reason that the public has an opportunity to argue, complain, debate or support is because this government makes the information available publicly. When that legislation came forward, this official opposition—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Order. Final supplementary.

Mrs. Christine Elliott: Mr. Speaker, I would say to the Acting Premier, through you, of course, that this is a government that wants to talk about accountability, but then they go around and do something exactly opposite. This is rubbing off on other Liberal cabinet ministers.

The health minister said her contract with McKinsey and Co., the details of which of course are secret, is for $750,000, but the Sudbury hospital admits you are diverting even more of their budget to pay for this untendered contract. The infrastructure minister and the Minister of Transportation ran the dubious bidding process for renewal of service centres. The labour minister cut his own side deal to send WSIB workers to the US for American health care. His entire caucus is trying to block the reappointment of the Environmental Commissioner and the Ombudsman.

This government is not in favour of accountability. What makes you think you can get away with pretending that you are?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: There are a few of us that were here back in the day. Your party, which you’re speaking for today, is the same group that sent the then trade minister on a European tour with Bacardi rum and Andy Brandt, and hid the expenses through the LCBO. We’ve changed that rule now in Ontario, and the only reason I’m so surprised you’d ask the question today is that you voted against our law to make that kind of expense public.

It’s very ironic that today we’re faced with questions when we’ve seen legendary openness in government and transparency. All you have to do is move the mouse and click, and you have access to virtually everything that we’re doing. That’s how you can even find a question every now and then that’s relevant—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I realize it is Thursday and members are anxious to get back to their constituencies, but we collectively within this House have work to do. Part of that is question period, and I’m having extreme difficulty in hearing members either ask questions or answer questions. I’m sure all of our guests that are here today would like to hear them as well.

CURRICULUM

Mrs. Christine Elliott: Again, my question is for the Acting Premier. Premier McGuinty was also caught trying to slip through changes to the school curriculum so that, beginning in September, sex education will be taught to six-year-olds in grade 1. Parents are already coming forward and telling us that they weren’t consulted, Catholic school boards are saying they won’t implement the new curriculum, and the only ones who knew you were doing were so-called experts and Toronto advisers.

What made you think you could get away with cutting parents out of a decision about their own kids?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: I am very pleased to have an opportunity to correct a record that is so clearly laid out incorrectly today in this House. This process started two years ago. This is important to the Ontario government, which has the best Ministry of Education in the world—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Order.

Minister?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: Let me tell you about this process that they claim was so secret. We were talking about 700 students consulted; 70 organizations over two years; 2,400 people gave advice on drafts via the website and through letters. This was the point. We have experts: parents, teachers, principals and community leaders. It’s important to note that we took their advice.

Our Ministry of Education is known as the best in the world. We have the best experts. We have the best institute to train teachers. We have the most visitors from around the world coming to that ministry in our government—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mrs. Christine Elliott: Well, it’s really interesting: If these consultations were so broad, then why are people so outraged now?

While the Liberals posted these changes to the curriculum in January, you were deliberately quiet in posting them before the rest of the curriculum changes for the fall were ready to be released. Why didn’t you announce these significant changes to parents?

The minister did make announcements about eating standards in schools, welcoming students from Haiti, new school safety rules, graduation rates and hands-on technology training. If you stand behind your decision to teach sex education to grade 1 kids, then why didn’t you announce it?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: I think we do understand what the Conservatives mean to do, and I think they are back to the politics of division. What we are doing with this government is working with the experts, engaging the right groups, including parents and experts in education, to develop a curriculum that represents Ontario today. There isn’t a parent out there who doesn’t want their child educated with the latest and most up-to-date and appropriate, including age-appropriate, education.

If parents go to our website, they will see exactly the kind of dialogue that teachers would have with those students at the right age, with the right terminology—nothing that this crowd could be afraid of. All I can say is that in the 12 years since the last update, our world has changed. It’s our responsibility to make—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Mrs. Christine Elliott: It’s quite clear that the McGuinty government failed to consult with probably the most important group of experts: parents. Where was the parent consultation? Premier McGuinty gave more prominence to the completion of an administrative review of—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Withdraw the comment, please.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I withdraw.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: It’s time to throw somebody out.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I appreciate the offer from the member from Trinity–Spadina. Do you want to be the first?

I’d just remind the honourable members that it is important that we all have the opportunity to hear a question and hear an answer. Please continue.

Mrs. Christine Elliott: The McGuinty government chose to release the changes separately from the rest of the curriculum revisions, and one has to wonder why. Why did you bury the changes from parents? They have a right to know: Was your motive for making no announcement and burying the decision to teach sex education to six-year-olds because you didn’t want anyone, including your own caucus, to know about it?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: First of all, we need to correct the record. What is absolutely critical is that parents have been consulted during a two-year process—70 organizations. We have prided ourselves on including parents in every step of the massive changes we’ve made for the better in education.

Let’s go back to our grade 1 students. Does this party honestly think it’s inappropriate for young children to learn about what their body parts are, that they are in fact private, to know what we’re supposed to be showing and not showing, when you’re in grade 1? Are you honestly opposed to the language as is written for the grade 1 curriculum to know the right names of your body parts? Tell me that you are not in the Dark Ages about what a grade 1 student is coming home with through the Internet or through the schoolyard. We want those children taught properly.

ENERGY CONSERVATION

Mr. Peter Tabuns: My question is to the Acting Premier. Ontarians care about the environment. They know that we all have to act today to deal with climate change, air pollution, depletion of resources. Three quarters of Ontarians say they’re trying to be more environmentally responsible than a year ago. But making the green choice to retrofit their homes should be affordable. Why won’t this government make it possible for all Ontarians to be green?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: To the Minister of Energy and Infrastructure.

Hon. Brad Duguid: I’m not sure where the member is going with this question, but surely we’ve done more when it comes to providing all ratepayers with opportunities to conserve. Our home energy savings program has helped 160,000 families provide retrofits to their homes to help make their homes more efficient. Over 348,000 energy audits have been done to help those very families make important decisions on their homes, to save on their energy costs and contribute to building an energy culture in this province. We’ve done more than any government has for conservation.

I will agree with the member on one thing, and that’s that we intend to do more, and we will do more.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Well, three quarters of Ontarians don’t think governments are doing enough to address the environment.

It’s telling that your government announced its home retrofit program in a million-dollar Rosedale home. People have to have a lot of money to put out the kind of cash that’s needed to actually do the retrofits that are required. It’s no wonder, then, that only one in 25 homeowners have taken advantage of the home retrofit program. That means that a very small percentage of Ontarians have been able to actually take advantage of that cash. They need a different approach.

Won’t your government, today, on Earth Day, announce that it will make home retrofits financially accessible to the vast majority of Ontarians?

Hon. Brad Duguid: I’m almost thinking that the member opposite, and this surprises me, is suggesting that our home energy programs and our home energy retrofit program are not things that are benefiting homeowners across this province. It appears that he has taken the position that the Conservative federal government has taken to back away from these programs. We are not going to back away from those programs.

Some 160,000 families across this province have benefited from our home retrofit program, 348,000 families have had home audits, and thousands of individuals have had opportunities to find employment in what is a budding new sector in this province. This program has been successful, along with a number of the other programs that we’re engaged in.

We remain fully committed to conservation; we are today, and we will be in the future.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: If Stephen Harper is the base of comparison, then we’re putting a pretty low standard here.

There are a lot of ways to make retrofits accessible to most Ontarians. Manitoba provides low-interest loans for home retrofits that people can pay back through their home utility bills. BC has a green landlords program that will retrofit all apartment units in 20 years. There are affordable options that work for modest-income households.

Why won’t you take the steps necessary to ensure that all Ontarians can afford to go green?

Hon. Brad Duguid: Once again, this program has been one of the more successful programs that we have, but let me just talk about some of the other programs that are out there that are making a difference.

We have our Power Pledge program. We have smart meters that we’re bringing in, and I know the member would support that. We have the Great Refrigerator Roundup. We have the Peaksaver program. We have the aboriginal retrofit program, hot and cool savings, Every Kilowatt Counts, banning inefficient light bulbs. The list goes on and on. We are doing more in the conservation area than any government before us.

When it comes to assisting low- and middle-income people, in the recent budget the Minister of Finance announced a $455-million tax credit. That will be going into the pockets of low- and middle-income Ontarians as they try to adjust to increasing energy rates.

We care about those individuals. We’re going to work with them and everybody else in this province to ensure—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

PUBLIC TRANSIT

Mr. Michael Prue: My question is to the Minister of Transportation. Ontarians understand that investing in transit and the environment is not just the right thing to do to protect our planet, but it creates jobs, reduces health care costs and improves our quality of life. Every dollar invested in public transit returns up to $9 in jobs, economic activity and reduced pollution and health care costs.

Can the Minister of Transportation say what the impact of slashing $4 billion from Transit City and $170 million from the bus replacement program in this year’s budget will be on future health care costs, lost jobs and lost economic activity?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: It’s extremely important that we understand that this is not about cutting funding for transit; this is about stretching the money that we have committed over a longer period of time. The debate that’s going on right now, fuelled by the third party here in the city of Toronto, is absolutely beside the point.

What we have said is that we are committed to building the Transit City projects, the Metrolinx projects, in Toronto. We are committed to light rail transit. We are committed to making sure that there’s an integrated regional network of transit in the GTHA. That’s our commitment, and we are going to continue to work on the projects even though the member opposite is part of a party that wants to create the notion that we are not continuing. That’s just not the case.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Michael Prue: The whole question is: when? Three hundred frustrated people packed city hall yesterday. They shared personal stories about the way these transit cuts are affecting them now and into the future, and criticized the McGuinty government’s short-sighted and backward plan to slash the funding and to delay it for many years. Why is the province telling people who live far from subways, who take overcrowded buses, who sit in gridlock, to wait longer to get home to their families? Why the delay?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: What we’re telling those people is that we understand that they need public transit in Toronto and in the GTHA. What we are telling those people is that we’re going to continue with these projects, that we’re going to continue building and that we have had to stretch the projects out over a slightly longer period of time.

One of the proponents of transit in the city of Toronto, Adam Giambrone, has said, “If you’ve got a cash flow problem, we’re happy to talk. We’re happy to stretch out some of these projects. This isn’t just a hard line in the sand. This is about being reasonable.” You can see that Adam Giambrone and, I hope, the mayor are starting to understand that a plan is coming. We are developing a plan with Metrolinx. We need them to work with us because we understand exactly that those jobs and those methods of transportation for people who live in the city are absolutely critical. That’s why we’re going to continue.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Mr. Michael Prue: Back to the minister: If Toronto is going to be a world-class city, and it wants to be, it needs to have a world-class transit system. This morning the mayor will be signing a pledge to build Transit City by 2020. I am going down to sign that, as are other New Democrat MPPs. Will the Minister of Transportation sign it as well?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Here’s what I think is happening: I think the member opposite and the mayor understand that we are absolutely committed to bringing forward a plan. I think they understand that we understand how important this is and that we are going to be continuing with the projects. The kind of debate that’s going on here is about when and how we are going to do it, so that they can claim when we bring the plan forward that they pushed us to do it. The reality is that we’re on track. We’re developing a plan with Metrolinx.

We’re going to be continuing with these projects, and there’s money going into projects in the city of Toronto right now—today. We’re going to continue, and I am very pleased that Adam Giambrone and the mayor seem to be understanding that they need to work with us so we can get that plan going.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock. If members want to have cross-chamber conversations, please take them outside or to your respective offices.

New question.

PUBLIC SECTOR ACCOUNTABILITY

Mr. John Yakabuski: My question is for the Minister of Government Services. Our leader, Tim Hudak, proposed a plan and legislation to bring greater transparency and accountability to all parts of government. We’re calling for freedom of information to be extended to all public bodies, and for all hospitality expenses, contracts over $10,000 and position reclassifications to be posted. There are over 600 public bodies, but the Premier is only making 22 of them be reviewed by the Integrity Commissioner’s office. I ask the minister: Do you see any reason why the expenses of all other public bodies should be treated differently than these 22 agencies?

Hon. Harinder S. Takhar: Our government has moved very aggressively to create more responsible organization within our agencies, boards and commissions. We have changed the legislation to a very large extent so that all these organizations become more accountable.

I have not seen the proposals that the Conservative Party is putting forward. I will be more than pleased to look at them.

Let me say that I think we have proposed several initiatives before, and their party actually voted against each and every one of them. For example, we opened up the publicly funded universities—they were brought under the freedom-of-information act. Their party voted against that—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. John Yakabuski: We didn’t hear much there. One agency that gets a special free pass on their expenses being reviewed is Dalton McGuinty’s local health integration networks. The Integrity Commissioner’s office, as well as the LHIN headquarters, confirmed that no one is reviewing the expenses of LHIN boards, staff or consultants. Yet, strangely, Premier McGuinty said the Integrity Commissioner reviews LHIN expenses, which is why he was not listening to our call for a public review or adopting our accountability measures.

The Premier and Minister Takhar have not explained why Dalton McGuinty said the Integrity Commissioner’s office reviews LHIN expenses when they don’t. What makes you think you can get away with this?

Hon. Harinder S. Takhar: Actually, I really don’t understand where their party stands on these issues. When we brought the legislation forward to post these expenses online, their party opposed it.

Also, let me just quote from—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Please continue.

Hon. Harinder Takhar: Let me just quote, in Hansard from September 16, the member from Durham. When we proposed this posting of expenses, this is what he said: “We know that there could be as many as 80,000 employees filing expenses. It could amount to a million or more expense documents to be audited. The Integrity Commissioner’s office has eight employees today under their charge.” So he was basically saying that we shouldn’t be doing it because of the expenses. Now you are advocating that we should be doing it because of them.

My view is that we need to have accountability, but we also need to make sure that there is a balance between accountability—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

TAXATION

Mr. Gilles Bisson: My question is to the Deputy Premier. We have with us today a number of First Nations members from the Rama First Nation and their tribal council. They’re here again for one simple reason: The crown, in 1764, said that First Nations would be exempt from paying certain taxes. Your government has negotiated with the federal government an HST that’s going to be implemented on July 1. My question to you is simply this: Why did you not ensure to exempt them in the first place when you negotiated this HST with the federal government?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: To the Minister of Revenue.

Hon. John Wilkinson: I welcome the question from the member. I do want to welcome the many people from First Nations who are visiting us today at Queen’s Park. In particular, Grand Chief Patrick Madahbee is here. We welcome you and we’re delighted that you’re here, both inside and outside of the Legislature.

I say to the member that it is important to remember that for some 30 years now, all the parties in this House have had the privilege of having government, and we have always provided, since I think about 1980, a point-of-sale exemption in regard to the provincial sales tax.

On July 1, there will be no provincial sales tax. There will be just one harmonized sales tax in Ontario, administered by the federal government. We have reached an agreement with them that under the administrative rules of the federal government—and what they do right across the country—when a First Nations person is on-reserve, there is no sales tax. When they’re off-reserve—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: The buck stops with you, Minister. It is your HST; it’s not the federal government’s HST. It is you who has implemented this policy, and it was up to you, as a government, to ensure that the point-of-sale exemption was in place when you negotiated it.

So I ask you again: Why don’t you take your responsibility and ensure that, by July 1, there will be a point-of-sale exemption? It’s Dalton McGuinty’s HST.

Hon. John Wilkinson: Despite the bluster, let’s get to the facts. On July 1, there is no provincial sales tax; there is but one harmonized sales tax, administered solely by the federal government.

We have said to the federal government that we believe that the administrative practice in the province of Ontario that sees the point-of-sale exemption should be maintained in the province.

First Nations are rightly frustrated, as is our government, as should all members be frustrated by the fact that the federal government refuses to sit down at the table where we have been working with First Nations. The administrator of the tax has to agree, and to date they have not. That is why we are calling and we should all call on the federal government to—

Interjections.

Mr. John Yakabuski: When the Speaker is standing, you’re supposed to sit down.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): And when the Speaker is standing, you’re not supposed to be talking.

New question.

PESTICIDES

Ms. Leeanna Pendergast: My question is for the Minister of the Environment. As you know, today is Earth Day, and it marks the one-year anniversary of Ontario’s ban on the use and sale of cosmetic pesticides. The ban protects Ontarians from unnecessary use of cosmetic pesticides on our lawns and gardens and is one of the toughest in the world. We’re seeing other jurisdictions such as New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and BC following our lead.

With the warm weather approaching and people starting to get outside tending their gardens, many had traditionally used products such as weed and feed on their lawns. Now, with the pesticide ban in place for a year, people are looking for the best ways to adjust their practices to maintain beautiful lawns.

Minister, how can people find out more information about what products they can and can’t use and how to maintain a healthy, pesticide-free lawn?

Hon. John Gerretsen: Let me first of all congratulate the member on her great advocacy on this action and a number of other actions that this government has taken. Let me also say that the people of Ontario are proud of the toughest ban on the use of cosmetic pesticides in all of North America. I know that the official opposition belittles that effort, but the people of Ontario are totally behind us in this regard.

Yes, we have banned about 250 pesticide products from sale. That includes about 80 pesticide ingredients that are banned for cosmetic use. Of course, the real reason why we’re doing this is to make sure that we are protecting the health and welfare of all Ontarians, particularly the younger children who may have been affected by previous pesticide use.

You can have a healthy and beautiful lawn and garden without the unnecessary risks posed to our health—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Ms. Leeanna Pendergast: Ontarians want information on environmentally friendly products. They want it for their lawns and they’re looking for green alternatives. Thank you for that information. They’re also looking for new eco-friendly products like low-risk and biopesticide alternatives so that they can do their part for the environment.

Through actions such as the pesticide ban, we not only protect our environment and the health of our families, but we also spur economic growth, research, innovation and new environmental solutions.

Minister, what is being done to help ensure that there are new environmentally friendly lawn-care options available and that the research and development is being done right here at home in Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Gerretsen: First of all, I encourage everyone to go to ontario.ca/pesticides if they’re looking for information and tips on how to green their lawns without the use of pesticides. And yes, we have seen Ontario businesses take the ball and run with it. Manufacturers are investing in innovation and developing pesticide-free technologies and products. Many retailers around this province are stocking eco-friendly lawn and garden solutions.

Through our cosmetic-use pesticides research and innovation program, nine projects across this province have received a total of $432,000 to promote the development of greener alternatives to pest control. It’s happening in the lawn care industry, in landscaping, park maintenance and the turf management sector. There is a different way in which we can do it without the use of pesticides on our lawns, and these companies are showing us how to do it.

TAXATION

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: My question is to the Minister of Revenue. Minister, you know there are hundreds of Ontario First Nation members here today, many here in the audience. I know that a chief from one of my ridings, Chief Sharon Stinson Henry from the Chippewas of Rama, is in the members’ gallery.

Minister, there are just 70 days left before your greedy harmonized sales tax grab starts being collected across Ontario. Your Liberals shut down public hearings, and in the one day of hearings held on your second sales tax increase, you did nothing to stand up for First Nations chiefs, who were given 10 minutes to explain what this $3-billion tax grab will mean for their communities and your so-called new relationship.

Like all Ontario families, they’ll be hit hard by your 8% increase on home heating and gas, particularly those living in northern Ontario. What made you think you would get away with not consulting First Nations about your greedy HST tax grab and how it affects them?

Hon. John Wilkinson: I want to thank the member for the question. Again, I want to reiterate that we welcome our First Nations to the Legislature today.

In the province of Ontario, when it comes to the GST and the PST, there is no sales tax on-reserve. When a First Nation member is off-reserve, there are two different treatments. When it comes to the federal GST, if an item is to be delivered back to the reserve, then there is a point-of-sale exemption; there is no tax.

In the province of Ontario, for some 30 years when you were in government, when the other party was in government and when we’ve been in government, we’ve had a point-of-sale exemption. We believe that is the fair and proper way to administer the point-of-sale exemption, which, I might add, is not available in any other province.

We have said to the federal government, “We believe that you should adopt the administrative practice we have in the province of Ontario.” On July 1, they are the sole administrator. We are as frustrated as First Nations—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: Minister, you made the deal. You didn’t consult. The McGuinty Liberals did not consult with First Nation chiefs any more than they consulted with other Ontarians. When the PC critic asked for the courtesy of more time for them to be heard, your committee members voted unanimously to step on their rights. You shut down public debate on your greedy $3-billion tax grab. You defeated 500,000 amendments to the HST bill without even looking at them, and there are just 70 days left—70 days left—to do the right thing for Ontario families, including Ontario’s First Nation families, whom you have completely shut out of this.

Will you scrap your plans now to make First Nations and all Ontarians pay this greedy $3-billion tax grab?

Hon. John Wilkinson: There we have it. There is a party that believes that we should have two sales taxes in the province of Ontario. We believe there should be one. That’s what happens in modern economies. By doing this, that will result in some $47 billion worth of more investment in this province and some 591,000 more jobs. That’s why we’re doing this. But we need to make sure that taxes are applied fairly and equitably.

We believe that the point-of-sale exemption on the provincial portion of the HST, administered by the federal government, should be maintained. But to make that happen, there is one party that will not come to the table: the federal government. We have asked them, the First Nations have asked them, and I believe all the parties in this House should ask the federal government to be part of that. You cannot have an exemption—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

MINING INDUSTRY

Mr. Gilles Bisson: My question is to the Deputy Premier. Last week, we had the opportunity to meet with the Premier along with Xstrata here at Queen’s Park. Xstrata was pretty clear: They said that not only are they shutting down the refinery and smelter in Timmins, but there will not be other refinery smelters being built in the province of Ontario, including the project up at the Ring of Fire.

My question to you is simply this: Why would Ontario allow itself to be put in the position of not adding value to those natural resources that we are so lucky to have and be blessed with in this province and instead allow those particular metals to be processed outside of Ontario?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: I think it’s important to note that even when this member today asking the question was part of the government of the day, even at that time, the reality for us in Ontario—although acknowledging a very difficult circumstance with Xstrata in Timmins and a very difficult decision for us to have to watch, because while they’re not shutting down their whole operation, we want to see all of Xstrata’s operations continue to flourish, and it doesn’t look like that’s happening.

But even at that time, and for many years now, Ontario has actually been a net benefit to doing that kind of processing here in Ontario and bringing resources into Ontario. We actually do that more than resources are being sent elsewhere. I’m happy to provide that information to the member opposite.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: You’re the Minister of Economic Development and Trade, and you don’t understand the basics of the minerals industry? The issue is simply this: Ontario has an abundance of natural resources in the ground and in the forest. If we don’t have an ability to add value to those products, the economy of Ontario will suffer.

Xstrata was clear. There will not be any more refining, there will not be any more smelting done, as far as new projects coming into the province of Ontario. We will become the extractors of the ore, we will transform it into concentrated pellets, and we will ship it out of this province to be added when it comes to value.

So my question to you is, what are you going to do to ensure that Ontario is able to benefit from those natural resources by having value added to them here in Ontario?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: I’m sorry, but I do have to set the record straight. The reality is that here in Ontario—and for many years—we bring more minerals into Ontario from elsewhere for processing. Nickel alone: We have 85% of that mineral processed here in Ontario.

As I said, I’m happy to share this information with this member—and perhaps it has changed over the years since he was a member of the government several years ago. But that is our reality. We are home to processing, here in Ontario.

I recognize the difficulty with the Xstrata situation. That is why our government has responded in working with local leadership and providing funding to that local leadership to look for other opportunities that could come that way in that very mine and in that very foundry. That is the kind of work we’re prepared to do. I appreciate the difficulty, because we don’t want to see job loss anywhere. So the—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

ENERGY POLICIES

Mr. Jeff Leal: My question is for the Minister of Energy and Infrastructure.

Yesterday, I was disturbed to hear the Leader of the Opposition’s comments about coal-fired generation—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from Hamilton East and the Minister of Economic Development: Have the discussion outside. I don’t need the two of you interrupting everyone else.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I could make lunch reservations for them.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): You’re not helpful either, member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke. Perhaps the three of you—and that may be the best thing I can do: send the three of you out for lunch together.

Member from Peterborough.

Mr. Jeff Leal: Yesterday, I was disturbed to hear the Leader of the Opposition’s comments about coal-fired generation in this province.

As the minister knows, between 1995 and 2003, during the PCs’ time in government, coal-fired generation went up by some 127%, while at the same time, carbon dioxide emissions increased by 124%.

Yesterday, the current leader expressed his party’s belief that our government should have spent taxpayers’ dollars to install scrubbers at coal plants, a band-aid solution to fix the dirty problem they created. That would have cost $1.6 billion, according to 2007 estimates.

Currently, the government is on track to eliminate coal plants by 2014, with four plants slated to close this year, four years ahead of time. In 2009, the use of coal-fired generation was at its lowest rate in 45 years, down 70%.

Could the minister please assure the House that he does not intend to install scrubbers at coal-fired plants instead of closing them outright?

Hon. Brad Duguid: Absolutely. I share with the member his disappointment that the Leader of the Opposition continues—he is consistent with their former love affair with coal. He continues that, but it continues to be a misguided position. It continues to be a—

Hon. Brad Duguid: I agree, Mr. Speaker. We do have to contrast, but I’ll try to keep that in mind.

The McGuinty government is reducing emissions and improving the health of Ontarians by eliminating coal. While their party continues to want to cuddle up to coal—and I think that’s an interesting contradiction—every year, pollution due to coal generation accounts for the premature deaths of hundreds of Ontarians.

We remain determined that by 2014, this province will be completely out—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Jeff Leal: I’d like to thank the minister for his response.

Minister, a decade ago, Ontario’s energy system was not in good shape. It was an unreliable system with constant shortages, and demand was exceeding supply. The energy sector was hesitant to invest in Ontario. Our infrastructure and the transmission distribution lines that bring power to our homes and businesses had capacity issues and were not keeping up with demand, let alone being able to handle more supply. Quite simply, the government of the day was not making the investments that were needed to ensure a sustainable and reliable electricity system.

Minister, Ontarians know that electricity prices are going up. They also want to know from you that we’re making improvements to our system so that the investment they’re making in tax dollars delivers good, reliable power.

Hon. Brad Duguid: A lot has changed in the last six or seven years. We’ve gone from an energy sector that was, frankly, in a state of crisis to an energy sector that’s now in a state of stability. We’re planning reliable, sustainable energy, with a mixture of emission-free power and conservation programs. That’s helping our families across this province use less energy. At the same time, we’ve brought 8,000 megawatts of new supply online over the last six years, and we plan to bring forward up to 10,000 megawatts online by 2011. That’s a huge increase.

That brings stability to a sector that, seven years ago, was in absolute chaos and crisis. It’s something that has required some tough decisions on our part today, but it’s ensuring that, as we move forward today and into the future, we will have a solid energy supply in this province that’s clean, green, and helping us create a green economy—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

WASTE DIVERSION

Mr. Norman W. Sterling: My question is to the Minister of the Environment. As you know, Minister, today is Earth Day. In the 2003 election campaign, your party promised a 60% diversion rate from landfills by 2007. Your own report last year, From Waste to Worth, indicates that only 22% of all waste is being diverted. This includes a 39% contribution from the municipalities, but only 12% from industrial and commercial that is being diverted from landfills. That’s your area of responsibility. Why have you failed so miserably in keeping garbage out of our landfills?

Hon. John Gerretsen: First of all, I would like to thank the member for asking a question about the environment. I think that’s question number three in two years from the Conservative Party on the environment.

We have brought in some very strong new recycling programs. Look at the municipal hazardous waste program—toxic material that used to end up at our landfill sites—which has been very, very successful. We just recently brought in a tire recycling program to take the 13 million or so tires that are produced and used in the province of Ontario out of landfill sites. We have just brought in the electronics recycling program, where basically all electronic equipment now, from televisions to computers—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The members from Renfrew and Haldimand–Norfolk.

Minister?

Hon. John Gerretsen: All of these programs, including the electronics recycling program, are done in order to take this stuff out of the landfill sites.

We’ve done a lot of work over the last four to five years, and we intend to do a lot more. We can always do more work in order to make the environment for the people of Ontario the best that it possibly can be.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Norman W. Sterling: The problem is that the diversion rate today is worse than it was 10 years ago. You have done nothing to fulfill your promise in the 2003 election.

As a result of your dismal record, the people of West Ottawa, Stittsville and Kanata are forced again to fight for their community because of a proposal to double the size of the Carp landfill, this despite the fact that this site is now in the midst of residential neighbourhoods. This landfill site is intended for ICI waste—your responsibility, the province’s responsibility—and the diversion rate now of 12% is less than it was 10 or 12 years ago. What are you going to do to divert ICI waste from landfills and make this huge expansion unnecessary?

Hon. John Gerretsen: First of all, we look forward to that party supporting our new Waste Diversion Act, which will be introduced in this House within the next four to five weeks. We want to make sure that we keep as much out of our landfill sites as possible. We want to work towards a zero-waste society, and we need the help of everybody in this province—in the IC&I sector as well as in the residential sector—to work with us on that.

So we look forward to their support when we introduce this new bill to make producers—the people who actually make the various products, the people who actually package the various products—responsible for their after-life use. We look forward to their participation in that.

We can do a lot better. We’ve done a lot, and the only way we’re going to do it better is by taking stuff out of landfill sites through a new waste diversion—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

MANUFACTURING JOBS

Mr. Paul Miller: My question is to the Minister of Consumer Services. Yesterday, I asked a question of the Minister of Consumer Services. The question was about an issue which falls squarely within the mandate of her Ministry of Consumer Services. The minister fobbed off the question to the Minister of Economic Development. I’ll ask the Minister of Consumer Services, the only cabinet voice for Hamilton, again: What is the minister going to do to protect consumers from Labatt’s attempts to establish a monopoly and kill good brewery jobs in Hamilton?

Hon. Sophia Aggelonitis: I’m glad to stand in this House and talk as the member from Hamilton Mountain, as the Minister of Consumer Services. For some reason, this member doesn’t really know what consumer services is about. It’s about protecting consumers when they buy a house, when they buy a new car, when they go on vacation; to help them with public safety issues. But you know, it gives me an opportunity to share with this member something that is very important, I think, for this whole House to know: I speak for Hamilton. You put Hamilton down. It’s time for you to lift up and start talking about Hamilton. It’s a great city, Mr. Miller. Come on, speak for Hamilton.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I’m very hopeful that within the next week there will be a full attendance here, because I’m very much looking forward to delivering a statement reiterating some past comments and putting forth some new comments. I’ve said this before within this House, and I direct this to every member in this chamber: It is one thing for you to be critical of a government policy or maybe critical of a position, but let’s not bring it to a personal level.

I think it’s incumbent on all of us that, yes, we all have constituencies that we represent and we need to make sure that we are voices, and you are voices, for your constituency, but let’s not bring it to the level of personal attacks on one another.

Supplementary?

Mr. Paul Miller: I guess I’m guilty of sticking up for the workers of Hamilton; I’m sorry.

In attempting to control the beer industry in Hamilton, Labatt’s offered the city $2 million, money that would have been paid to get out of the lease before its May 2012 end date. Labatt’s tried to tie that money to block any other brewery from using that site. Will the minister from Hamilton stand up for the community, under the auspices of her ministry, to protect consumers from Labatt’s blatant attacks to stifle any brewery competition and kill those skilled workers’ chances to maintain their good jobs in Hamilton?

Once again, I apologize for sticking up for the people of Hamilton.

Hon. Sophia Aggelonitis: You don’t do that ever. Unbelievable—you never do that.

But it gives me an opportunity to talk about the Ministry of Consumer Services. I want to talk about the Ministry of Consumer Services and just some of the things that this ministry does. This is what we do: Last year, we gave advice and assistance to over 55,000 inquiries and complaints; over 528,000 mediated refunds and cancelled or rescinded contracts for consumers; goods delivered, services started and other remedies in hundreds of cases. In fact, at the same time last year, the ministry compliance and enforcement plan: 597 compliance inspections in field visits; 1,304 charges laid. It’s about protecting the consumer when they spend their good, hard-working money on house—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

MUNICIPAL FUNDING

Mr. Mario Sergio: My question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Minister, the McGuinty government recently released the 2010 Ontario budget and the Open Ontario plan, a five-year plan which will see Ontario open to new jobs and growth. I understand that we have received support for both of these initiatives.

AMO President Peter Hume, in supporting the budget on behalf of Ontario municipalities, said, “The budget’s overall emphasis on job creation and economic development will also have spin-off benefits for municipal governments,” and, “The government’s plan for fighting its deficit by and large maintains municipal government and our cost-sharing arrangements with the province.”

I’m hoping that the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing could elaborate on some of the cost-sharing arrangements—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Minister?

Hon. James J. Bradley: This government recognizes how important it is to work closely with our municipalities. That’s why, in partnership with Ontario’s municipalities, our government created the Provincial-Municipal Fiscal and Service Delivery Review, resulting in a landmark agreement between our government and Ontario’s 444 municipalities. The review brought together Ontario, the Association of Municipalities of Ontario and the city of Toronto to look at new ways to fund and deliver services.

By 2018, we will have increased: ongoing annual support to municipalities to more than $3.8 billion, an increase of over 250% since 2003; uploading of Ontario Works benefits, saving $425 million; uploading court security costs, saving municipalities $125 million. By having a 10-year plan—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Mario Sergio: The province must continue to provide programs such as the Provincial-Municipal Fiscal and Service Delivery Review to create a better Ontario. I will be certain to take this information back to my constituents to assure them that this government is continuing to work alongside Ontario municipalities.

In these tough times, hard decisions have to be made. I have heard specifically from the constituents in my riding of York West who are worried that the municipal programs already funded by the government may be affected. I note that the province has worked with the city of Toronto on a number of initiatives across the government, and I’m hoping today that the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing can help Ontarians understand exactly what has been done for our fine city of Toronto. Please, Minister, provide us with some information.

Hon. Mr. Bradley: While the economic situation and the provincial deficit may bring us some challenges, I want to assure the member for York West that our commitment to investing in much-needed affordable housing remains unchanged.

In 2009, through the social housing renovation and retrofit program, Toronto was approved for more than $200 million for retrofits and repairs. Under the affordable housing program extension, the city of Toronto has been allocated more than $140 million to build 1,000 supportive housing units and provide 122 home ownership loans. We’ve also prevented 4,500 evictions by providing Toronto with $7.8 million for a rent bank.

By the time the uploading is fully implemented, Toronto will be saving an estimated $400 million annually. And $3.5 billion, I should point out, is what we—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

POWER PLANT

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: My question is to the minister of economic—Minister of Energy and Infrastructure. Over a month ago, I asked you if you would listen to the health and safety concerns of Oakville residents and order an individual environmental assessment at the proposed Oakville power plant. You pushed aside my question and you ignored those concerns. Let’s see if you’re ready to answer. Minister, yes or no, will there be an individual environmental assessment on the Oakville power plant?

Hon. Brad Duguid: To be honest, energy and infrastructure is enough. I don’t need economic development in my portfolio too, but thank you for suggesting that.

As we always are as a government, we’re listening to all stakeholders and all parties when these matters are going through. No energy infrastructure is easy when it comes to siting. It’s challenging, it takes time and the proponents often have to work with the local communities. We want to be very respectful of that.

In terms of direct environmental issues, if that’s what the member is looking for in terms of a response, I’d be happy to refer the supplementary to the Minister of the Environment.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: I’ll take that as a no.

Last month, you gave the member from Oakville a pat on the back instead of answering my question about the Oakville power plant, but his Bill 8 has a loophole that makes it a publicity stunt. That loophole exempts any gas-powered plant that has obtained the required approvals, permits and other instruments before the bill receives royal assent. The developer of Oakville’s gas-powered plant anticipates that these required documents will be obtained by the summer or fall of 2010—that’s this summer or fall.

Minister, will Bill 8 pass before the end of this session in support of Oakville residents, or is it merely a gimmick that will have no effect on the Oakville power plant?

Hon. Brad Duguid: I’d better refer this to the Minister of the Environment.

Hon. John Gerretsen: Yes, we understand, of course, that the Ontario Power Authority has selected a proponent, but let’s make it absolutely clear that that proponent needs to meet and complete all the environmental approval requirements under the Environmental Assessment Act and under the Environmental Protection Act.

Ministry of the Environment officials will ensure that the proponent’s plan can meet or exceed provincial standards and be operated in an environmentally responsible way. So they need approvals. We’re looking at it right now, and in due course, a decision will be made.

SOCIAL SERVICES

Mr. Peter Tabuns: My question is to the Deputy Premier. Massey Centre in my riding provides support for teen mothers and their babies. It operates a daycare. Today, the daycare is closed and its parents in crisis. The workers are on strike, facing financial hardship. The centre is struggling after years of underfunding.

The Minister of Children and Youth Services has been responsive and open to the centre’s administration. For that, she has had their respect. But the minister is not in a position to put money on the table to settle this dispute.

Will you give this ministry the funds it needs so that this centre can put people back to work and put the daycare back in operation? Will you take that action?

Hon. Sandra Pupatello: To the Minister of Children and Youth Services.

Hon. Laurel C. Broten: I appreciate the member opposite’s compliment on my openness to working with this organization.

As I have had the chance to tell him in conversations that we have had about this important issue, we have received a proposal from the Massey Centre. Unfortunately, given the nature of the proposal and the fact that this is in the realm of contract and labour negotiations at this time, we are unable, and I am unable, to interfere in this important process. I know the member opposite believes, as I do, in the collective bargaining process. It needs to be free from interference. We cannot engage in the dialogue at this time.

But my offer remains open: Separate and apart from contractual negotiations, I look forward to meeting with this organization and talking about the important work that they do in their community.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: I appreciate the concern of the minister, but I go back to the Deputy Premier. We have parents and children facing a very difficult time. We have workers who are on the street without an income. We have a situation where underfunding over the years has put people in an impossible position. That needs to be corrected.

We’re not asking for people to interfere with collective bargaining; we’re asking for help to resolve this situation. Will the Deputy Premier take the action to help the parents and the children at this centre?

Hon. Laurel C. Broten: With respect to the process, there is help from the Ministry of Labour. A conciliator is available to assist at all times with these talks.

With respect to assistance for the parents, our regional office has informed me that the Massey Centre Early Learning Centre, which provides child care to families, intends to continue to provide care to families served by this child care centre. The prenatal residential program will be closed for the duration of the strike, but the Massey Centre has arranged alternate accommodation for the prenatal unit residents from other young parent resource centres and other community resource centres.

I encourage both sides to work to resolve the dispute. Once the labour dispute is resolved, I look forward to hearing from the Massey Centre about their programs and working with them to continue to deliver these critically important programs in our city.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The time for question period has ended.

DEFERRED VOTES

CREATING THE FOUNDATION

FOR JOBS AND GROWTH ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 POSANT LES FONDATIONS

DE L’EMPLOI ET DE LA CROISSANCE

Deferred vote on the motion for second reading of Bill 16,

An Act to implement 2010 Budget measures and to enact or amend various Acts / Projet de loi 16, Loi mettant en oeuvre certaines mesures énoncées dans le Budget de 2010 et édictant ou modifiant diverses lois.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Call in the members. This will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1139 to 1144.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): All those in favour will rise one at a time and be recorded by the Clerk.

Ayes

Aggelonitis, Sophia

Albanese, Laura

Arthurs, Wayne

Balkissoon, Bas

Berardinetti, Lorenzo

Best, Margarett

Bradley, James J.

Broten, Laurel C.

Caplan, David

Carroll, Aileen

Chan, Michael

Colle, Mike

Delaney, Bob

Duguid, Brad

Duncan, Dwight

Fonseca, Peter

Gerretsen, John

Hoy, Pat

Jaczek, Helena

Jeffrey, Linda

Johnson, Rick

Kular, Kuldip

Kwinter, Monte

Lalonde, Jean-Marc

Leal, Jeff

Levac, Dave

Milloy, John

Moridi, Reza

Murray, Glen R.

Orazietti, David

Pendergast, Leeanna

Phillips, Gerry

Pupatello, Sandra

Ramsay, David

Rinaldi, Lou

Ruprecht, Tony

Sandals, Liz

Sergio, Mario

Smith, Monique

Sorbara, Greg

Sousa, Charles

Takhar, Harinder S.

Van Bommel, Maria

Wilkinson, John

Wynne, Kathleen O.

Zimmer, David

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): All those opposed?

Nays

Arnott, Ted

Bailey, Robert

Barrett, Toby

Bisson, Gilles

Chudleigh, Ted

Dunlop, Garfield

Elliott, Christine

Hardeman, Ernie

Jones, Sylvia

Klees, Frank

Kormos, Peter

Marchese, Rosario

Miller, Norm

Miller, Paul

Munro, Julia

Prue, Michael

Savoline, Joyce

Sterling, Norman W.

Tabuns, Peter

Wilson, Jim

Yakabuski, John

The Clerk of the Assembly (Ms. Deborah Deller): The ayes are 46; the nays are 21.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I declare the motion carried.

Second reading agreed to.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Pursuant to the order of the House dated April 21, 2010, the bill is ordered referred to the Standing Committee on Finance and Economic Affairs.

There being no further deferred votes, this House stands recessed until 1 p.m. this afternoon.

The House recessed from 1148 to 1300.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I have a message from the Honourable David C. Onley, the Lieutenant Governor, signed by his own hand.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The Lieutenant Governor transmits estimates of certain sums required for the services of the province for the year ending March 31, 2011, and recommends them to the Legislative Assembly. Dated April 22, 2010.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Hon. Margarett R.

Best: Today, I’m very pleased to rise in this Legislature, as this is Ontario Coaches Week, and I would like to introduce the following people who are in the audience with us today: Paul Connelly from Uxbridge, who is a high school coach; Sheilagh Croxon from Etobicoke, who is the chair of the Coaches Association of Ontario; Ann Doggett from Toronto, who has been a field hockey coach in the high-performance program since 1998; Tracy Angus from Burlington, who has been a judo coach for over 23 years; Michael Broughton of Toronto, who is a wheelchair basketball coach for Ontario’s provincial team; and Susan Kitchen of Toronto, who is the executive director of the Coaches Association of Ontario.

Welcome to the Ontario Legislature.

Mr. Bob Delaney: I’m pleased to introduce for a second time today—and it is equally a pleasure—the co-hosts of Good Day GTA on my favourite radio station, Classical 96.3 FM, Mike Duncan and Jean Stilwell, in the east members’ gallery; and also to welcome a constituent of mine, Susan Kitchen, whom the minister just previously introduced, of Estoril Road in Meadowvale in Mississauga–Streetsville.

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

VICTIMS OF CRIME

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: This year marks the fifth annual National Victims of Crime Awareness Week in Canada. Across our nation, we remember that every victim matters. We keep in mind the impact that crime can have on victims, on families and on friends. We acknowledge those who have been victims of crime and those whom we have lost as a result of crime. We highlight that a crime may occur in a moment, but that for victims of crime, the impact can have a lasting effect.

We recognize the work of those people in our province whose commitment helps support victims of crime. But during this week, it is also important that we raise awareness of where we can do better and ensure that our justice system and our society treat victims of crime with the utmost dignity and respect.

The Ontario PC caucus has a long history of supporting victims of crime. In 1995, we introduced and passed the Victims’ Bill of Rights, which begins: “The people of Ontario believe that victims of crime, who have suffered harm and whose rights and securities have been violated by crime, should be treated with compassion and fairness.” These are words the PC caucus, and our leader, Tim Hudak, will always stand by.

The PC caucus maintains the belief that the best support we can provide is to reduce crime, but where there are victims of crime, we’ll continue to demand that their rights and dignities be respected.

PHARMACISTS

Mr. Peter Kormos: Down where I come from in Welland riding—Port Colborne, Wainfleet, Welland, Thorold, St. Catharines—people know their pharmacists and people have respect for their pharmacists. I’m talking about neighbourhood pharmacists, community pharmacists. I’m talking about women and men who, in some cases, have served two, three and four generations of folks.

That’s why I’ve got in my office now almost 500 signed messages from constituents—more are coming, and they’ll keep on coming—telling me, and asking me to tell the McGuinty Liberals, that people in Ontario depend upon the convenient, accessible advice and services they get from their local pharmacy, that people in Ontario, just like they do down where I come from, want to ensure that their pharmacists are there when they need them. They want to know that they can talk to their pharmacist after work or when they can’t get to their doctor’s office or when their doctor’s office is closed. That’s why they’re telling me to tell Mr. McGuinty to stop his attack on small-town pharmacists.

Do you want to take on drug prices? Then muster up the courage, which I suspect is hard to find, to take on the big multinational drug companies. Don’t beat up on the pharmacists.

If you think I’m the only voice saying that, you’re sadly mistaken. Folks like Gilda Gatti from Thorold are saying that. Folks like Mrs. R. Quirion from Welland are saying that. People like Marilyn Boccioletti from Thorold are saying that. Margaret Pratt from Port Colborne is saying that. Ron James from Thorold is saying that. C. Valenti from Thorold is saying that. Betti Michael from Port Robinson is saying just that, and so is C. Schrock from Thorold and hundreds of others.

RENEWABLE ENERGY

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: Today is Earth Day, and I’m very proud that our government has delivered the largest green energy initiatives in Canadian history.

Under the Green Energy Act, our government’s most green energy initiative is to build 186 new green energy projects. Some of these projects are in my riding. Four solar and wind projects that will be run by Ontario-based companies have been awarded contracts in Northumberland–Quinte West. These projects will boost our local economy by bringing new jobs for the construction, operation and maintenance of these green energy projects, and will provide cleaner energy for our homes.

When taken together with our earlier announcement of 510 green energy projects, these additional 186 projects will boost our green energy generation to 2,500 megawatts, enough electricity to power 600,000 homes. These investments in building green energy sources in my communities and communities across Ontario are important for the future of our province.

We all know that the world is at a crucial point in reversing climate change. We need to be part of the solution, and that means investing in green energy sources that reduce our environmental footprint. The steps our government is taking today are an important part of reducing Ontario’s carbon footprint.

ORGAN AND TISSUE DONATION

Mr. Frank Klees: Yesterday, the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care urged us to remind all Ontarians about the urgent need to register their consent to donate their organs or tissue.

Unfortunately, the well-intended wishes of many who have signed a donor card will never be known or acted upon, because their intention has not been formally registered on the OHIP registration data bank.

That’s why I’m calling on all members of the House today to support the following resolution that will make registration both convenient and meaningful:

“That, in the opinion of this House, the go