Manitoba Hansard — 23 April 1975 (Sitting 58, 30th Legislature, 2nd Session)

30-2-58

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Wednesday, April 23, 1975 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRO DUCTION OF GUESTS 1601 MR o SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honour able members to the gallery where we have 30 students, Grades 4 and 5 standing ,of the Fort Alexander School. These students are under the direction of Mr . Dram and Miss Freeman. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Ruperts land, the Minister of Co-opera tive Development. We also have 20 students, Grade 9 standing, of the Lore tte Collegiate.

These students are under the direction of Mr. R. Goulet. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Springfield, the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. We also have 10 students of First and Second Year standing of the Brandon Univers ity, under the leaders hip of Mrs. Grant. This university if located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Brandon West. On behalf of all the honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

Pres enting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minis ter for the Insurance Corpora tion. TABLING OF REPORTS AND ORDER FO R RETURN HON. BILLIE URUSKI (Minister for Manitoba Public Insurance Corporat ion) (St. George): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to p:resent to the House an Order for Return No. 6, by the Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Co-opera tive Development. HON. HARVEY BOSTROM (Minister of Co-operative Development) (Rupertsland): Mr .

Speaker, I submit the Annual Report of the Co-opera tive Promotion Board for the period ended March 31 , 1974 . MR o SPEAKER: Any other Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Questions . The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. ORA L QUESTIONS MRo SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q.C . (Leader of the Opposition) (River Heights): My question normally would have been to the Attorney-Gener al, he's not presen t, I'd like to address it to the First Minister.

There has been a request by the Town of The Pas for an inquiry to the matters leading up to the fracas that occurred a few days ago, which would involve the whole problem of unrest within the area. I wonder if the government will consider this request and will allow an inquiry to take place. MRo SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere) : Mr.

Speaker, I cannot confirm on behalf of the Attorney-General that such a request from the Town of The Pas has been received but I have no reason to suppose that it will not 1and when it is received, then of course the matter will be considered by the Attorney-General and if there is any recommendation to the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council, if one is necessary, then it will take place also . At this point in time, I cannot confirm, neither the receipt of the reques t;therefore much less any decision. MR o SPIVAK: I wonder if I could direct a question then to the Minister of Correct ions.

I wonder if he can indicate whether the problem of probation officers within The Pas area has been brought to his attention in the past few months. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Corre ctions. HON. J.Ro (BUD) BOYC E (Minister for Correc tions and Rehabilitation) (Winnipeg Centr9) : Not by town council, Mr. Speaker. There are programs that we are proceeding with to try and alleviate some of the problems. There is a problem in the North and hopefully my es timates will be approved and allow us to attend to some of these . MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question then for the Minister of Health and Social Deve lopment. I wonder if he can indicate whether the problem of the lack of social workers in the Community of The Pas has been brought to his attention.

J 160 2 April 23, 1975 ORAL QUE STIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (M inister of Health and Social Develo pment) (S t. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, no it hasn' t. MR. SPIVAK: Well, again to the First Minister. I wonder if he can indicate wh ether in the past few months · the problems with respect to social workers, probation officers, and generally the problems of unrest within The Pas, has been brought to the attention of his govern me nt. MR. SPEAKER: The H onourable First Minister . MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, only in the very limit ed sense, having to do with the social case workers being attached to the Kelsey School Divis ion' s requirements of social co unselling, but not outside of that context. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. J AMES H. BILTON (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Correcti ons . In view of the recent dis turbance and the release to The Pas Town Council in the newspapers today, can the Minister advise where the plans now stand for the long-promised new jail facilities in The Pas ? MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister of-Corrections. MR.

BOYCE: Mr. Speaker, I was just handed a copy of this press clipping as I came in the door; I hadn' t seen it or heard it earlie r. But hopefully under my estimates that once aggin the Hous e will approve those funds that I am requesting. I had planned on filing a copy of the Northern Committ ee on Cor rections in this House, while it was an in-House document, it had been my intention to table it in the House during my est imat es. MR . BILTON: I understand the Minister to sa y then that construction of the jail will start this year. MR . BOYCE: Mr. Speaker, I did not say that.

I said that there were plans, that there are architects presently working on the facilit y program for the North which includes The Pas. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister . In view of the public announcements and statements of the mayor and council of The .Pas, I wonder if the First Minister would consider meeting with the officials to determ ine whether a formal inquiry should be undertaken. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable First Minister . MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speake r, the question is with respect, I believe, a little anticip atory . We are to understand that the Town of The Pas is forwarding a communication to the At to rney-General, and naturally the Atto rney-General will want to have an opp ortunity to peruse the comm unication and to consult with staff and to make some recommendation. So therefore it really is, it is premature obviousl y at this time to indicate in advance ju st what course of action will he followed . MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the First Minister.

There's been an announcement that there is an expansion planned for ·the Winnipeg Stadium and for the Winnipeg Ar ena. I wonder it he can indicate whether a request has been made for Provincial · Government involvement and participation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Firs t Minist er. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I think I should refer that to the Honourable the Minister of Urban Affairs. I cannot ... well I'l l put it in converse. I have not received any su ch comm unication but my collea gue may have . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. SA UL A.

MILLER (Minister for Urban Affairs) (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, I cannot recollect receiving that kind of comm unication. My memory however may not be exact and I'l l undertake to see whether in fact such a communicat ion was received. · MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry . MR. L. R. (BUD) SHERMAN (F ort Garry): My ques tion. Mr. Speaker, is to the Honour able Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cu ltural Affairs .

Can he advise the House wheth e r he did me et this week with officials of the Mani toba Amateur Hockey Ass ociation, as he indicated he intended to do, on the subject of violence, partic ularly in minor hockey in Winni peg. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs .

April 23, 1975 1603 ORAL QUESTIONS HON. RENE TOUPIN (Minister of Tou�ism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs) (Spring field): Mr.

Speaker, I indicated in my answer to the honourable member later last week, I believe, or no, it was on Monday, that I was meeting with my officials on Tuesday, which I did, and I have received subsequently a report from my officials, from those involved directly with minor hockey, and those that have attended the one-day conference last weekend, and I do intend to meet in the future when I can have a date, a mutually accepted date with those officials given responsi bility on the provincial level to sit down and discuss the problem with them, and more particularly the President of the Manitoba Amateur Hockey Assoc iation and the President equally of the Greater Winnipeg Minor Association, and equally those involved as refe rees in the Prov ince of Manitoba, the chief referee and others.

I haven't had this meeting; I'm hoping to have a date that's mutually acceptable. I have a report and a recommendation from my staff at this time. MR . SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr . Speaker. I thank the Minister for his informa tion, and I would like to ask him whether in his meeting with his officials, to which he referred, did his officfals convey to him the sense and direction of that par ticular seminar that took place on the weekend? MRo TOUPIN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I do have before me the consensus arrived at by the four panelists at the one-day convention las t weekend, and it's their brief, but I do not want to take the time of the House unless I'm asked to, but I can make copies of this consensus available to any member of the House that's interested. MR " SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-GeneraL HON" HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General) (Selkirk): Mr . Speaker, I have a number of questions I would like to answer that were in substance taken as notice by myself.

First I would like to relate to a questi.,Jn that was posed to me yesterday by the Honour able Member for Fort Garry in which to some extent my answer was not correct, and that was in rela tionship to the laying of charges insofar as the incidents at the university. And my words were, Mr . Speaker , the las t report that I had is that possible charges against support st aff were under review by officials in my department. I haven't received any reports in the last sev eral days in this connection. I will check to see if there's been further progress, but to my knowledge there has been no decision to lay charges.

And that was certainly to my knowledge at the time. Apparently charges have been laid against ten persons under charge of impeding other persons under

Section 171 (a)(3) of the Cr iminal Code, 12 persons . Now at the same time as receiving that information within the last day or two, I have received numerous other complaints which have been forwarded to me by those that were present at the time of the alleged incident, complaints insofar as the conduct of the police were concerned, and I have requested the institution of a further rev iew by senior members of my department to re view all informa tion they have at the present time; but at the presen t time charges were preferred as against 12 individuals .

Well, if I could just follow through with answers to other questions. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge had asked a question in connection with the Liquor Control Commission and its plans in resp ect to River and Osborne . The Commission is leasing property, leasing space in the old Safeway store at River and Osborn e . There is no construction to be carried on at that site . However renovations are presently under way and should, barring any unforeseen incidents, be completed by June the 15th this year . The outlet should have been ready two months ago, but apparently there were problems involving zoning.

Also questions have been raised in the last week, again by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, as to the existence of organized crime, and I indicated to the honourable member that I would update information which I had some months ago obtained from the RCMP and from the City of Winnipeg. Again, the emphasis that I've received in respect to corresp ondence from both police forces that it's questionable as to exactly what we all mean when we relate in our thinking to the words "organized crime".

If we're thinking in terms of Maffia, or the sort of thing that we foresee under the type of Godfather ty pe of organizations, international or inter provincial in scope involving Maffia or crime sy ndicates of that nature . I've been assured that there is no one such organized crime in Manitoba. However they do indicate that there are elements of what could be considered organized crime, when two or more individuals meet together in order to conspire together to decide upon a series of crimes in the areas of drug trafficking and bookkeeping, etc., and of course

1604 April 23, 19 75 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) ••••• needless to say the police forces are maintaining a constant vigilance for any growth or extension of that type of organized criminal activity. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR . SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the Honourable the Attorney-General for the information, the answer to my question. I'd like to ask him whether he can advise the House whether the group of persons now charged - and he incidentally referred to - includes any members of the striking union itself, or whether it merely includes sympathetic students? MR.

PA WLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have not seen the individual files personally, except to receive a comment to the extent that most, if not all those that were charged, were sympathiz ers rather than members of the striking union. The re may be several that were members of the striking union, but apparently the majority were non union members that were so charged. MR . SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Have the entreaties to the Minister to have the charges dropped or reconsidered come froni the union itself or from other groups on campus? MR . PA WLEY: Mr.

Speaker, there have been no personal approaches to me in any way, shape, or form, to have the charges stayed. The only reference was, I believe, by way of the news media last night in which there had been such an indication that such a plea would be made to myself as Attorney-General. The references that I'd made were to a number of complaints that related to conduct by the police surrounding the events that gave rise to the charges that also will have to be examined and looked into. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney General. I wonder if the Attorney-General can indic ate to the House that since we have some deplorable condi tions around the Centennial Concert Hall and the Playhouse Theatre near the Market street Liquor Store, is the Minister consideri ng relocating that Liquor store? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General . . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I was rather surprised to read that

article on the front page of the Free Press today, because I had been receiving r�ports from time to time that in fact those that had forecast doom and problems relating to that store were in fact quite wrong, and these reports had been coming forth steadily. So I am very surprised now after receiving the information, as I say that I've received over the last number of months, to read the type of report on the front page of the Winnipeg Free Press. Needless to say, Mr. Speaker, that in view of that

article I will certainly refer the art icle for comment and for enquiry as to whether there's any subst ance, or whether it's purely a gross exaggeration of the situation around the Market street Liquor Store. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the HQilourable Minister would undertake to get a report if the

article is correct, because in view of the three institutions, the Playhouse Theatre, the Ce ntennial Concert Hall and the Ci ty Hall are great tourist attractions to this City, would the Minister undertake to get a report if the

article is correct? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, certainly I am going to receive a report. The unfortunate thing is that I suppose that anyone that• s inebriated and walks into the Concern Hall, that some way or other there'll be a connection made between that individual and the Market street Liquor Store, which is most unfair;

whereas ..• --(Interjection)-- In fact I understand that drinking takes place within the Concert Hall itself • . . A MEMBER: That's where the drunkards are coming. MR. PA WLEY: .•. so, I'm somewhat sensit ive to sometimes the tendency for all the blame to be pitched upon the Liquor Store at the corner of Market and Main. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. MR. EARL McKELLAR (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to just direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resou rces, and ask him if he has anything further to report on the flood conditions of the Souris River?

FLOOD REPORT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q.C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management) (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I did deliver a report yesterday. I have nothing since yesterday.

April 23, 1975 1605 FLOOD REP ORT (MR. GREEN cont'

d) I do have something for the Member for Swan River, who asked a question about the situation in that area. The answer that I have received is that the ice jam has cleared itself, that six to sev en houses which are located in Flood Plain have been affected as they have been affected in the past, and I give the answer so that it'll be on the record and I'll communicate the answer to the Member for Swan River when he gets into the House . ORAL QUESTIONS cont'd MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, my question is by way of a supplementary to the questions asked by the Member for Ass iniboia to the Honourable Attorney-General. If relocation of that particular liquor store is being considered in keeping with . . . MR. SPE AKER: Order pl ease . Order please. Hypothetical. MR. SHERMAN: When relocation of that particular liquor store is recons idered, should that course of action be followed? In keeping with earlier requests of mine to the honourable gentleman, would he consider relocating it into the Fort Richmond shopping plaza in Fort Garry? MR . SPEAKER: It's all hypothetical. Order please.

Hypothetical. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Public Works . wonder if he can indicate whether the province has any respons ibility for security of the premises of the Lieutenant-Governor. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. HON. RUSSELL DOERN (Minister of Public Works) (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, we have a general respons ibility for Government House . MR . SPIVAK: Is that responsibility included in the respons ibility for the premises, for thie 'uilding?

Is it included as part of the overall premises of the buildings located in the area of the Parl iament grounds? MR . DOERN: Again, Mr. Speaker, in a general sense, we do not have staff located in Government House, but are, as part of the government grounds I assu me that it is sort of generally covered. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, through you to the Minister of Public Works .

In view of the fact that there r.ppears to have been a break-in into the Lieutenant-Governor's premises, I wonder if the Minister would be in a position to indicate whether the security is still being maintained as it was in the past, or whether there has in fact been any lapse of security with respect to those premise s. MR. DOER N: Mr. Speaker, I have not been informed of any such break-in or alleged break-in, but I have had no additional requests, and the kind of security has been as before, namely our own staff on the grounds, supplemented by commissionaires in the summertime. MR.

SPIVAK: I believe there is now informa tion that such a break-in did occur, and I'm not in any way trying to suggest something that I believe to be incorrect. And I wonder then if the Minister would undertake to investigate this matter to determine whether in fact new provisions may have to be undertaken. MR. DOERN: I'll certainly investigate the matter, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I address my question to the Honourable the Minist0r of Labour.

Can he tell us if his department has done anything by way of an of fer of conciliation or other help with respect to the workers at the University of Manitoba and the management. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): The normal conduct of negotiations between the Department of Labour, its conciliation officers and those that are in dispute in the terms of collective agreements, Mr. Speaker, which are of course our responsi bility. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable House Leader. MR . GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Could we now proceed with the Adjourned Debates on Second Reading.

160 6 April 23, 19 75 INTRODUCTION OF GUEST MR . SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to indicate in the loge. to my left we have a pas t member of our Legislature, Mr. John Allard. We welcome you here today. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 15, proposed by the Honourable Attorney-General. The Honourable .. . Order please . Bill No. 15, proposed by the Honourable Attorney-General . The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. (Stand) Bill No. 16, proposed by the Honourable Minister of Mines. The Honourable Member for Riel. (Stand) Bill No. 17, proposed by the Honourable Minister of Mines.

The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr . Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Attorney-General, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House re solve itself into a committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majes ty. MOTION prese nted and c2rried, and the House resol ved itself into a Committee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - CO-OPE RATIVE DEVELOPME NT MR .

CH AIRMAN: I refer honourable members to their Estimate books, the new ones that we have, Page 5, Standard Accounts Clas sification Salaries, Wages and Fringe Benefits $148, 700 - Pass. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr . Chairman, again I believe we're dealing with the salary of the Deputy Minister in this item, and I would like to if I can ask some specific questions of the Minister. As I underst and it the Deputy Minister is the head of the Co-operatives Loan and Loan Guarantee Board. MR. BOSTROM: That is correct. MR . SPIVAK: Or Chairman. MR.

BOSTROM: He is Chairman of the Loans and Loans Guarantee Board. MR. SPIVAK: Chairman, I'm sorry. Now as I underst and it the Co-operatives Loan and Loan Guarantee Board guarantee loans of the various co-operatives upon request that is made to them. And I wonder if the Minister can indicate at what point his deputy became aware of the fact that there was going to be a co-operative formed of the development officers, and when he, as Chairman of the Co-operatives Loan and Loan Guarantee Board, determined that a loan would be given to a co-operative formed of development officers ? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Co-operative Development. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, in answer to the first part of the question - I didn't quite catch the last part - but in answer to the firs t part of the question the organization referred to in the Auditor's Report as the Co-oper ative Federation, I believe, which I believe the honourable member is asking a question about, was in operation, to the deputy's under standing at least , was in operation at the time that he was appointed to the deputy's post in that department. MR .

SPIVAK: Well I wonder if the Minister could indicate the date upon wtich he was appointed so that we . . • MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, the date is October 1, 1970. MR. SPIVAK: Well I wonder if he could then indicate when the Co-operative Loan and Loan Guarantee Board authorized an amount of money to be guaranteed for the Co-operative Federation? MR . BOSTROM: While my deputy is looking up the answer or getting the date for the honourable member, I would just like to continue if I could on the comments on the Estimates, and I believe we're dealing with administration, Mr . Chairman.

With respect to administra tion I would like to make a few comments on the organization of the department. In 1971 the Co-opera tive and Credit Union Services Branch of the Department of Agriculture became the Department of Co-oper ative Development. The Administration Branch was instituted in the 19 72-73 fiscal year. The over all objectives of this branch, Mr. Chairman,

April 23, 1975 1607 SUPPLY - CO-OPE RATIVE DEVEL OPMEN T (MR, BOSTROM cont'd) ..... are to achieve greater resp ons iveness in the co-operative sector of the Province of Manitoba, provide leaders hip, assu me and reflect a developmental role for the department as opposed to an exclusively mandatory-reg ulatory role, and provide management support services and control to the field operations of the department. The branch, Mr. Chairman, provides all services relating to the normal operations of a depart ment.

Such include accounting relating to income and expenditure, administrative services relating to purchasing and management and equipment, supplies and space, personnel manage ment, prepar ation and management of a budget program, and project costing, analysis and control, as well as reports and summaries relating to administrative servi ces. Mr.

Chairman, the Administration Branch of the Department of Co-operative Development administers the Co-operative Loans and Loans Guarantee Board, which the Honourable Leader of the Oppos ition has just referred to, and the Wheat Board Money Trus t Act, a report of which I submitted, tabled in the Legislature today, the Co-operatives Promotion Board. Both of these Acts, Mr. Chairman, provide for appointed boards to carry out the responsi bilities as set out therein.

The Administration Branch of the department provides each with secre tarial servi ces, co-ordinates their programs throughout the department, provides accounting and advisory services relating to Guaranteed Loans and Securities and prepares reports as de signated by these boards. For many years now, Mr. Chairman, the department has been considering the co operative legislation which the co-operatives in Manitoba are organized and governed by. The legislation that we operate under is that which is incorporated in the Manitoba Companies Act, in particular

Part 10 of that Act. Mr . Chairman, Co-operatives have advocated that specific legislation for their regulation be brought forward because of their special nature and objectives pursued. Manitoba is yet one of the few provinces without precise co-operative legislation, that is a precise act relating specifically just to co-operatives. In resp onse to the need for comprehensive and yet permiss ive legislation for co operatives, the Department of Co-opera tive Development has initiated a study and drafting proposal which at this point in time has reached the stages of proposed principles of a new Act. Mr.

Chairman, the only reason that this Act is not coming forward at this time, in this Legislature, is that corporate legislation, particularly at the federal level, may be subjected to major changes in principle; in fact the Federal Government has provided us with the information that they are proposing legislation in this sessi on of parliament on which any proposed Act at a provincial level would have to be based, and therefore if we were to proceed with a new Act at this time it would merely mean that a new Act may be very soon redundant with the pass age of legislation at the federal level. Mr.

Chairman, it was felt therefore that further consideration of a co-operative Act should be withheld until these major changes at the federal level are !mown. Mr . Chairman, many questions have been asked in the Legislature with respect to the administration of the department, the administration procedure s. I would like to refer to one service, the audit serv ice of co-operatives which is contained in the Administration Branch. This serv ice was be gun in Oct ober, 1973 with the employment of a qualified auditor. I might point out, Mr.

Chairman, that this is one of the items which I believe the Provincial Auditor referred to in his report as the kind of reorganization and restruc turing that was taking place in the department as a result of a recognition of a need for improved checking, improved auditing. And as a result of a reor ganization of the Co-operative Development Branch of the Department, Audit was subtracted from the General Program area of Development and inserted as an administrative function, as a support se rvice to co-operatives. And, Mr.

Chairman, it should be clearly distinguished that c:.i-operatives are separate from the Depart ment of Co-operat ive Development, that is something which honourable members opposite, and

part icularly the Leader of the Oppos ition, likes to confuse, likes to .leave the impressi on that somehow the co-operatives in Manitoba and the Department of Co-opera tive Development are one and the same, and this is complete nonsense, Mr. Chairman, complete nonsense . Mr . Chairman, the delivery of this new audit service became seriously impaired because time allotments remaining for audit purposes, due to other pressi ng priorities, corralled the attention of Co-operative Development officers .

Therefore the department pro ceeded to review its audit policy and establish a comprehensive audit service that would be made available to all co-operatives in the development stages, all the co-operatives in the

1608 April 23, 1975 SUPPLY - CO-OPERATIVE DEVEL OPMENT (MR. BOSTROM cont'd) ....• development stages. And, Mr. Chairman, to existing co operatives without a parent society that could offer such services. In other words, Mr. Chair man, this service is available in this new

section of the Administrative Branch, the Audit Services section. The services are available to co-operatives that are unable to provide it themselves. And, Mr. Chairman, these are in many cases local co-operatives, small service groups that simply cannot afford the services of a chartered audit service. Most co operatives in this category are northern co-operatives and non-affiliated co-operatives, such as the many service type co-operatives that are springing up in Manitoba; many of the new emerging co-operatives are able to avail themselves of this service. And, Mr.

Chairman, just as it provides a complete audit program for developing co operatives, it also ensures adequate safeguards to the Co-operative Loans and Loans Guarantee Board by way of information on the financial state of the co-operatives concerned. In other words, in the audit of co-operatives, Mr. Chairman, that have loans guaranteed by the Loans Guarantee Board, the.se audits are made available to the board so that the informa tion can be studied and decisions made with respect to loans that are guaranteed by the Loans Guarantee Board. Mr.

Chairman, there are no specific or legal obligations to render this audit service to any co-operative. There's no specific or legal obligation, except in the circumstances where the co-operative is unable to obtain the service and there are no other resources available to it. Mr. Chairman, I repeat that this service was begun in October, 1973 before any allegations were brought up in this House with respect to administration in the department. Mr.

Chairman, the fact that co-operatives receive grants or loan guarantees from provincial sources necessitated the department to re-emphasize the regulatory aspect of its programs, recognizing at the same time that this department has no real legislative authority to do audits, no real legislative authority to do any audits, except by dictate from the Registrar where no auditor is appointed by the co-operative membership. Twenty-two audits, Mr. Chairman, were .conducted or supervised during the 1973-74 fiscal period, while it's expected that some 43 will have been conducted during the 1974-75 period. Mr.

Chairman. with respect to the costs and fees for this audit service, at the present time the audits are conducted without charge for most co-operatives, since most could not afford to pay the kind of charges that are normally being demanded by fi rms of qualified professionals, who would normally have to travel to locations in northern remote points. Nevertheless, Mr. Chairman, the department has done some work on the development of a fee

schedule that would be equitable for all of our developing co-operatives. Over the next year it's expected all co-operatives where the department has commitm ents will be on an audit schedule, all co-operatives where the department has commitments. will be on an audited schedule. This is consistent with the number of co-operatives being incorporated into the accounting process, the accounting program of the department. One thing that's expected to place a stress on this program, Mr. Chairman, are further requests from day-care centre co-operatives in the immediate future.

Many of these are emerging at the present time and are requiring this service from the department. This, Mr. Chairman, is based on a normal increase in the number of co-operatives coming on-stream, and where alternative sources of service cannot be identified. Mr. Chairman, my Deputy informs me that the question asked by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition with respect to the loan which established a Co-op Federation has been fully repaid, therefore, the report which we have here, does not show the date the loan was made. Now, from memory, Mr.

Chairman, from memory, my Deputy believes that the loan was made in 19 72. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: I'd like to ask a question of the Minister on that. If the loan was made in 1972, why did it not appear in the second Anr:ual Report of the Co-operatives Loan and Loan Guarantee Board? A MEMBER: A good question. MR. BOSTROM: For the same reason, Mr. Chairman, that the loan was repaid. I don't

Ap ril 23, 1975 1609 SUPPLY - CO-OPE RATIVE DEVELOPMENT (MR. BOSTROM cont'd) •.... believe any further loans were made. MR. SPIVA K: Then why would it appear in 1973 ? Mr. Ch airman, I would like to, if I may, make some other remarks, and ask the Minist er to explain. He indicated that Co- oper ative Federation was organized in 1970 . I'd like to read him three lines from the Provincial Auditor's report. Page 23, "We have audited the accounts of the operation" (dealing With the Co-op er ative Federation) "from its inception to its discon tinuance early in 1974, a period of approximatel y two years duration. The following is a

summary of the operations' transactions ." Now, the Provincial Auditor is indicating that this was only in existence for two years . The answer given by the Mini ster was that it was in existence si nce 1970 . The guarantee does not sh ow in the audited st atement of the Depart ment of the Co -op erative s Loan and Loan Guarantee Board of 1972-73 . It appears in the state ment, which was not filed, according to the Act, on time within this Legislat ure. It appears on the sta tement for the year ending March 3lst, 1974, and shows it at $92, OOO.

Now I can read the contents again of what the Provinc ial Au ditor has said, but it would seem to me, Mr. Ch airman, that had there not been a provincial audit, auditor's su rvey in to the Department of Co-op er ative Deve lopment, knowledge of the loan guaranteed by the Co-op erative Loans and Loan Guarantee Board it would not have come to public light. Again I say to the Minister, how does he reconcile the answers that he's just given with the facts in the Provincial Auditor's report? MR . BOSTROM: Mr.

Ch airman, I did indicate, I believe the record will show that it was not in the report which was checked by my De puty, although he said from memory that he thought the loan was made in 1972, not 1970, so that that is consist ent with the Au ditor's Report ... MR. SPIVAK: Just on a point of order ... MR. BOSTROM: ••• who sa ys, Mr. Ch airman . MR. SPIVAK: On a point of order, so that the re's no confusion. We're talking about when the Co-opera tive Federation was formed. The answer given was in 19 70. We then asked when the loan was given or guaranteed, and the Minister replied, "in 1972" .

Now, the Provincial Auditor, in referri ng to the Co-opera tive Federation, says, "We've audited the accounts for the operat ion from its inception to its disco ntinuance early in 1974, a period of approximately two years duration ." And that information that .. • MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please . What's your point of order then? MR. SPIVA K: Well the point - I want the Minister to underst and, one was the ques tion, and not to confuse his answer dealing with ... MR. CH AIRMAN: You're having a difference of opinion and that's not a point of order. MR. SPIVAK: No, I wanted to explain the ques tion that was asked ...

MR. CH AIRMAN: Order please. That's the hassle we got into last night and gained the floor on preten ses of points of order or asking que st ions . We 're not going to get involved with that again today. The Honourable Minister of Co-ops . MR. BOSTROM: Mr . Chairman, I'm not quite sure what the Honourable Leader is refer ring to si nce I did say that it was believe d, at least, that the loan was made in 1972 .

Now theA uditor's report refers to a period of two years duration, in which case he's refer ring to the period, I believe , 1972 to 1974, and in which case "the accounts of the operation from its inception to its disc ontinuance early in 1974" - to quote directly from the report - "a period of approximately two years duration", so that that would appear to substa ntiate the date which was replied to by memory. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister said, and he was recei ving information from his Depu ty, when the question was asked, "When was the Co-operat ive Federation formed"? he said, "In 1970" --(Interjec tion)-- from memory. From the Provincial Auditor it indicates that it was from its ince ption, which was two years before '74, so it was obvi ously '72. So that inforn·ation was incorrect based on the Provincia l Auditor's report. The sec ond thing is that, if the loan was granted in '72 it should have appeared OD the 172-73 report of the Co -operatives Loan and Loan Guarantee Board.

The answer the Minister then gave was, "Well, it had been paid. " If it had been paid why did it appear on the '73-74 board when he indicated that we have audited the accounts of the operation from its inception.

1610 April 23, 1975 SUPPLY - CO-OPE RATIVE DEV E LOPMEN T (MR. SPIVAK cont'

d) Now, the other interesting thing, Mr . Chairman. is that they referred to $92, OOO in the report that was published for '73 -74, and the Provincial Auditor says: "Furthermore the minutes of the board only indicate a guarantee for $45, OOO." Now again, I ask the Minister, because the Deputy was in charge, at what point did the Deputy as part of the committee . involved in the authorization and commitment of public money, commit money to a Develop ment Co rporation or a Co-opera tive formed of the development officers within the department, when did it take place ? What was the amount? When was it paid ?

If it did take place in the period of 72-73, why was it not on the Annual Report ? • . . . . continued next page

A.pril 23, 1975 1611 SUPPLY - CO-OP ERATIVE DEVELOPMENT MR" CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Co-ops. MR" BOSTROM: The answers are not at hand. I will indicate to take them as notice and attempt to answer the honourable leader. In fact, Mr. Ch airman, as referred to in the report which was tabled in the Legislature, of the Co-operative Loans and Loans Guarantee Board for the period ended March 31 st, 19 74, the report does refer to the Co-operative Federation, and refers to a guarantee of $92, OOO, and a cancellation of same, which indicates that it was paid. And, Mr.

Chairman, I would point out to the Honourable Le ader of the Opposition that, in fact, the matter of the Co-operative Federation, although indicated in the Auditor's report was not set up on an incorporated basis, did not, however , reveal when checked by the Auditor, and also referred to in discussions in the Attorney-General's Department, did not reveal any loss of public moneys. There was no loss of public moneys involved. So that therefore, the dates that the honourable leader is re ferring to can be supplied. But these are small points I would say, Mr. Chairman, that can be cleared up.

MR , SPIVAK: Well, Mr. Chairman, the question that one has to raise is if the Provincial Auditor had not completed the investigation whether the Co-op Federation would have ever been discovered, because the fact is, on the public record when it should have appeared it did not. And for the record and because I think it's necessary to understand what the Provincial Auditor said, I'm going to read the full section, on Page 23.

And it's not a question of whether there was or was not any public money lost, the question is, why this particular structure, which had no legal basis, which involved a conflict of interest, was allowed to exist and what charges , what charges took place with res pect to the expense account involved in the purchases and ex penses , and further to determine how in fact this operated.

And I want to read what the Pro vincial Auditor says: "Supe rvisory employees of the Department of Co-operative Development commenced a bulk purchasing operation early in 197 2." So we now should establish that it was '72, not '70, "of boats, motors , nets .. . " --(lnterjection)-- MR" CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Co-ops. MR, BOSTROM: I realize that the Honourable Member can read this into the record, and I have no objection to this because I believe that all questions of . . . MR, CHAIRMAN: Or der, please. What is the point of order ? MR" BOSTROM: ... reasonable nature should be ...

MR" CHAIRMAN: Or der please. What is the point of order? MR" BOSTROM: Ok ay, Mr. Chairman. On a point of order , the questions that the honourable leader seems to be implying in reference to this report could be more adequately answered, I would submit, by the Provincial Auditor. He had the opportunity in the Public Accounts. MR . SPIVAK: Mr. Chairman, the Provincial Auditor will deal with accounting matters. I am now asking, through the Minister - his Deputy is prese nt, to determine to try and find the timing and to understand the action of his department.

And I wonder if I may complete what I began,and then again, recognizing that some questions may require some study, but other questions, I think, could be answered properly right now, try and determine and understand how the administration operated with respect to this particular matter: "Super visory employees of the Department of Co-operative Development commenced a bulk purchasing operation early in 1972 , of boats, motors, nets, snowmobiles, etc. , for resale to co-operatives under thena me of Co-operative Federation.

The financing of working capital for the operation was by way of a bank loan guar anteed by the Co-operative Loans and Loan Guarantee Board," and as I've in dicated, Mr. Chairman, it does not appear in the years 1972- 73 , and I asked the Minister to determine when that first bank loan was guaranteed. And I must say that this reconciliation is pr esented with the Deputy Minister as Chairman of this particular board.

"The aforementioned operation did not have a legal basis" - I'm quoting now from the Auditor 's report - "and the guarantee by the Co-operative Loan and Loans Guarantee Board was not in compliance with its Act. Furthermore the minutes of the board only indicate a guarantee for $45 , OOO,

whereas the employee involved in the operation who was the Secretary of the Board ," and I ask the Minister to indicate who that person was , and I'm not asking him now, I'm asking at the conclusion of my remarks , "advised the bank that the board had author ized an increase in the guarantee to $9 2, OOO to cover a bank loan that at its highest level amounted to $7 3, 800. "

(; 161 2 April 22, 19 75 SUPPLY - CO-OPERATIVE DEVELOPMEN T (MR. SPIV AK cont'

d) I point out then, in the submission to the House of the Annual Report for the years 1973- 74 , the sum of $9 2,000 is shown, not $45,000 as indicated in the Auditor's report. ''The bank loan was fully repaid from the proceeds of its operation. We have audited the accounts of the operation from its inception to its discontinuance early in 1974, a period of approximately two years duration. The following is a

summary of the operations transactions: Sales and sundry income, $322 , 254; Purchases and Expenses, $31 2, 102; Excess of Revenue over Expenditure, $1 0,152. The excess of revenue over expenditure is represented by net assets being acc ounts receivable of $7 ,923, and the collectibility of which is not known, and $2,845 cash in the bank less accounts payable of $6 16.

Matters of Legality of the operation of doubtful expenditures amounting to approximately $2, 900 which we had observed during the course of the audit, and of disposition of cash in the bank, accounts receivable and accounts payable have been reviewed with the Department of Co-operative Development and the Attorney General's department1are presently under consideration." Now prior to reading this, I asked certain questions and the information is too vague, Mr. Chairman, and I think the time has come for some more specific information to be given.

As I understand it, the principals, who were the development officers involved, purchased on a bulk basis for resale to co-operatives which were under their supervision, either by way of power-of-attorney or as a result of direct management.

I'm going to ask the Honourable Minister to indicate who were the members of the Co-operative Federation, and I want him to indicate to this House and list the names of the employees within the department who formed this Co-operative Federation; and I want to as well indicate, when he indicates the names, the involvement they may have had with any particular co-operative, as to whether they had the Power of Attorney of a particular co-opera�ive or not. I want him to indicate the nature of the goods that were purchased, that were sold to them.

I want him to indicate whether those goods were purchased in advance by the Co-operative Federation and then resold, or were orders taken that were bought through this structure. I want him to indicate as well how much private money was involved in the transactions, and how many members of the Co-operative Federation put their own money in it, and when they did that. I want him to indicate the expenses that were charged by his officials.

I want him to indica te the travelling that took place at govern ment expense with respect to this particular operation, and whether those expenses were charged to this operation. I want him to indicate whether any suppliers of any material paid for the expenses of any of the department people to travel around, or overseas, for the pur chasing of any equipment. And then I want, Mr. Chairman, facts on the table for us to make an assessment of ho·w this was allowed to continue, why it was allowed to continue, and why no action was undertaken • MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Co-operative Development. MR.

BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, this matter as indicated, I believe, in this report, is still under consideration. It's presently under consideration by the Auditor and in consultation with the Attorney-General's Department. I don't know if it would be proper for me to give to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition and to in fact name individuals in this House that may in fact be under .investigation in this section. --(Interjection)--I'm saying that there are people that are under investigation, that this

section here, this Co-operative Federation, is one of the matters which is not yet cleared up. In my discussions with the Provincial Auditor, Mr. Chairman, as I indicated last night, I referred to this

section specifically, specifically asked the Auditor about the Co-operative Federation. And I'm su.re the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has already also talked to the Auditor about this, and if not, he certainly has the right to do so. Now he also has the right to examint; the Auditor in the committee of the Legislatu re which is set up for that purpose. Now in my discussions with the Provincial Auditor, he has indicated to me, to this point he finds no evidence of fraud. And those are the words that he has indicated to me.

There are still some questions, some clarification which both the Auditor, I believe, and possibly the Attorney-General's Department, some clarification required on a couple of trans act_io ns, and one of them is referred to in this report here, a matter of doubtful expenditures amounting to approximately $2, 900. Now I know from the comments made by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that he has in fact discussed this with the Auditor. He knows clearly, he knows clearly what the Auditor's opinion is on this matter.

April 23, 1975 SUPPLY - CO-OPER ATIVE DEVELOP MENT MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Chairman, on a point .. . MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order . MR. SPIVAK: I have not discussed this matter with the Provincial Auditor. 1613 MR. BOSTROM: Well in that case , Mr. Chairman, I find it hard to believe, because if he is coming into this House and wanting to make implications on the basis of statements that are made in this section, then the responsibility of the position he holds should dictate to him, Mr.

Chair man, it should dictate to him that he go to the Provincial Auditor and question him and query him on this point before he comes into this House and makes statements which by their very nature would allege, would imply , that there are fraudulent activities in this section. Now, Mr. Chairman, I have talked to the Auditor , unlike the Honourable Le ader of the Opposition who gets up in this House and says he's not talked to the Auditor. Mr. Chairman, I'v e talked to the Auditor, because I believe it's my responsibility to talk to the Auditor.

I talked to him this week before I made the statements last night in the House that there was, up to this point in time, no evidence of fraud , no evidence of cheating, robbing , as the Honourable Le ader of the Opposition has alleged , none of these. No evidence on any of these allegations to this point in time by the Provincial Auditor. And as I indicated last night, Mr. Chairman, and quoting from a report from the Attorney-General's Department, they refer to

Section 9 of the Provincial Auditor's Act: "The Provincial Auditor, or anyone instructed by him in writing, may examine any pers on under oath, touching upon matters which are required to be investi gated by the Provincial Auditor purs uant to matters under his review." And, Mr. Chairman, by instructions from the Minister of Finance of this government, this matter here is under re view by the Provincial Auditor, and the Provincial Auditor has full right to call anyone he wants and in fact make that person testify under oath. And, Mr.

Chairman, the individual involved here, which the Honourable Leader of the Opposition would like me to name, would like very much for me to name, is the individual that they are quest ioning with respect to this $2, 900. Now, Mr.

Chair man, the Honourable Le ader of the Opposition can name him if he wants because he knows full well who I am talking about, and he can name him and he can make press headlines and he can have that pers on's name in the paper tomorrow, and in fact there will be slurs and aspersions put on that person that may in fact not be true , may not in the final anal ysis prove out to mean anything in legal terms. Now, Mr. Chairman, I don't per sonally believe that it's responsible of me to name indi viduals in this House that are under investigation here.

I believe that these people, their names, if there are charges to be made, will come out by the Provincial Auditor. In fact, the Provincial Auditor can be asked in committee who he's referr ing to in this report. And, Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition can go to the Provincial Auditor today and ask him himself who that person is. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, firs t of all I have spoken to the Provincial Auditor about his res ponsibilities priv ately, and I have been informed by him that it is his responsibility to bring to the attention of government, and not to the attention of the Oppos ition, any particulars of wrongdoing or any action which may be improper which can be corrected, and once it's cor rected he may very well report in his report that this was brought to their attention, but he has no re sponsibility whatsoever to recite any details to myself or to any other member of the Opposi tion or to the members of the press .

Now we're dealing with a young Minister who I think would like to hide, at this point, under the fact that there is still an investigation being completed. But the reality is, Mr. Ch airman --(Interjection)-- Well this is a debating point, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of privilege. The Honourable Minister of Co-operative Development. MR. BOSTROM: I'm not trying to hide anything. As I indicated to the honourable member, I do not believe it's proper to name these people in the House. MR" SPIVAK: The purpose of Estimates is for us to be able to obtain information.

I have asked the Minister to give us the names of the development officers who formed their own co operative. And I don't care whether there' s an investigation being undertaken: we have a right, if in fact development officers or civil se rvants have formed their co-operatives, have acted in illegal manner - and the Provincial Auditor has indicated that - and a conflict of interest is involved -- (Interjection)-- Yes. Read the Provincial Auditor's report. We have a right to ask who those people are. Now the Minister seems to want to impute that I have a particular

/ 1614 April 23, 1975 SUPPLY- Co-OPERATIVE DEVELO PMENT (MR. SPIV AK cont'd) .•..• name. I don't. I'm here seeking information. I am also seek ing information to determine the exact nature of control exercised by the development officers on the various co-operatives who purchased part of the bulk equipment, and I want to understand how this operation worked, I want to understand what private money was involved in terms of their own position, and, Mr. Chairman, we have a perfect right to ask this.

You know, if the Minister takes the position that because there's an investigation by the Provincial Auditor he has not an obligation to answer for the conduct of his own people, that's ridiculous. We are not in any way here to judge their actions, but this is a very unusual situation and reference has already been made to the Provincial Auditor. And I want to note, Mr. Chairman, that I hever asked about the $2, 900 that he referred to here. I never asked about that at all. I asked a number of questions which are legitimate questions in which the government and the Minister have a responsibility to answer.

And, Mr. Chairman, we are going to get answers in this House or we are going to be here a long long time. The Minister has a responsibility to answer those questions directly: who were the civil servants who formed the Co-operative Federation? And I don't care whether the Provincial Auditor or the Attorney General or anybody else has investigated.

I w ant to know what private money was put into this project; I want to know the co-operatives that were under their supervision and control and management - and we'll have a big argument as to whether they were or not but I want to know those who had the power of attorney- I want to know whether orders were taken in advance or equipment was bought first and then sold; I want to find out what expenses were charged with respect to this activity that were expenses on government time; I want to find out what suppliers provided any kind of expense money for these projects; and I want to find out all the details - and I must say to the Minister, we in this Legislature are ·entitled to that information from him.

MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, I would believe that normally names are not supplied in the Legislature in particular in this kind of case, where there are implications made, allega tions made. Now, Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition is being very very polite and very nice today, and he was not so polite and not so nice when he was making these allegations last year in the session. He also brought forward names in that session, Mr. Chairman, named individuals, named individuals whose names had appeared in the press, and, Mr.

Chairman, these individuals have not to this date. been found guilty of anything. To this date neither of the individuals named were charged with anything. Now, Mr. Chairman, the matter referred to in this

section is under investigation. It's under investigation at the present time by the Provincial Auditor of this province in consultation with the Attorney-General's department. Now, Mr. Chairman, if I have to repeat this until it finally sinks in, I will continue to repeat it. Because, Mr. Chairman, it says in the Provincial Auditor's Act that the Provincial Auditor, or anyone instructed by him in writing, may examine any person un der oath touching upon matters which are required to be investigated by the Pro vincial Auditor pursuant to matters under his review. Mr. Chairman, this matter is under his review.

This matter is under his investigation. And, Mr. Chairman, all of these things that the Honourable Lead er of the Opposition is asking for will be supplied in due course, and, Mr. Chairman, I reject the implication that there is any kind of reluctance to give information. All I am saying, Mr. Chairman, is that I think it's only common decency, common decency by members of this Legislature, to not bandy about individuals' names, not bandy about individuals' names who are employed in the public service of this province, and in doing so imply that somehow these people are involved in some kind of criminal activity.

Because, Mr. Chairman, to this point the charges of criminal activity that were made by the Leader of the Opposition in this House have not proven out to require any charges being laid. Now, Mr. Chairman --(Inte rjection)-- You made th� charges last session. Mr. Chairman, the Co-operative Federation, which he refers to here, has never .•. I don't believe anyone on our side has denied that this was not set up on an incorporated basis, that there was certainly irregularity to the way in which this was set up and the way it operated. But, Mr. Chairman, that is a far cry from illegality.

It is a far cry from criminal activity, which is implied in the statements and allegations that are made by the Leader of the Oppositton. Now, Mr. Chairman, he is being polite and he is being nice and I respect that. I believe that this is the way the debate should continue. If he will be polite and nice and inquire for information in a reasonable manner, then he'll get reasonable answers on this side.

Apr il 23, 1975 SUPPLY - CO-OPER ATIVE DEVELOPMEN T MRo CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Honourable Member for Morris. MRo WARNER H. JOR GENSON (Morris ) : ... He was up. MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh, the Honourable Member for Por tage la Pra irie. 1615 MR. Go JOHNSTON: Mr . Chairm an, aside from the Mini ster 's opening remarks last night and the answer he gave us just this minute, I think the re's a principle involved her e, and if we allow this Minister to get away with stonewalling per fectly legiti mate answer s, then the re's going to be some thing wrong.

This means that every depart mental Minister will be able to refuse questions, which will be some thing new in this Legisla ture. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister on a point of privilege. MR. BOSTROM: Po int of privilege. I am not stonewalling. I have clearly indica ted , cl early indicated that answers will be supplied to these in due course. MRO G" JOHNSTON: Well, Mr.

Chairman, when a Minister delibera te ly refuses to answer a series of questions , he may be able to say, "Well , ther e' s one question here that I consider, because it involves an individual's name, and I will take that under advis ement as to whether or not I'll answer it or not, " but when he refuses to answer detailed questions about the opera tion of his depart ment, then he's insulting this Le gisla ture. He is insulting this Le gi slatur e. And if he thinks we on this side of the House ar e going to stand for that , he' s got another think coming. MR . BOSTROM: A po int of privilege.

MR" CHAIRMAN: A point of privilege has been raise d by the Honourable Minister of Co-opera ti ves. MR0 BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, on a point of privilege, I did not refuse. I repeat, I did not refuse. A MEMBER: Give the answers then. MRo BOSTROM: I clearly indicated that these answers would be supplied in due cour se, and if the honourable member wants to consider that as my taking them under advisem ent then he can take it as that, because that's what it is. MRo CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Po rtage la Prairie. MRo Go JOHNSTON: I understood , Mr.

Chairman, the Minister to refuse point blank to answer any of the questions put to him by the Le ader of the Official Opposition. Is that your unders tanding, Mr. Chairman ? MRo CHAIRMAN: No, that is not my under standing. MR0 G. JOHNSTON: Well that is my understanding. MR0 CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of ... MR Go JOHNST ON : He has softened his position .. MRO CHAIRMAN: Or der please. You asked me what my under standing was. I will tell you what it is. If you don't want to hear it fine and dandy. And I don't want to start debating with honourable members.

All I understood the Honourable Minister to say, that he was not going to reveal some perso n's name. MRO G" JOHNSTON: Well then when I'm finished with my rem arks I would ask the Le ader of the Off icial Oppos ition to repeat his question and we'l l listen more car efully to the Minist er 's rem arks. I unders tood him now to have changed his position some what and say that in due course the se answers will be supplied. Well, Mr. Chairman, due course I would think is under the esti mates of the Minist er 's department, not six months from now or later in the sessi on when his. departm ent has been passed.

We want the answer s before his estimates are passed by members on this side . . MR0 BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, would the honourable member perm it a question � MR0 G. JOHNSTON: Ye s. MR0 BOSTROM: Is the honourable member sugg esting to me that I should supply the names of the public ser vants invol ved. that are indicated in the Auditor's Report here, to be under scr utiny at thi s time ? Under some sc rutiny. Is the honourable member suggesting - I would like a cl ear yes or no answer from him on that. MR0 CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR0 Go JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, I think I just said a few minutes ago that if ther e was a question there involving the name of a person under investigation and the Minister wi shed to take that matter under advis ement and let us know later whether or not he would give that ,! acc ept that , but I do not acce pt the refusal to answer the series of questions posed by the

1616 April 23, 1975 SUPPLY- Co-OPERATIVE DEVE LOPMENT (MR. G. JOHNSTON cont'd) ...•. Leader of the Official Oppo sition. Let me develop this for a moment. I believe the Minister will recall a few weeks ago when we were in the Public Accounts Committee and I put a motion before the committee asking that one of the Provincial Auditor's recommendations be carried out in that committee this year, and the recommendation was to the effect that certain departmental managers as mentioned by the Provincial Auditor in his report of last year be required to appear before the Public Accounts Committee. So what happened, Mr.

Chairman? I proposed the motion, after some considerable debate the govern ment members voted it down and one of them said - I be lieve it was the Member for St. Johns, I believe he said - th at the proper place for this is during the Minister's Estimates, or if it's another matter that was going to come before the Economic Development Committee you could ask those questions then and seek that information then. But the point was made by Govern ment members that this matter would come up under the Estimates of the Minister. Now, Mr. Chairman, the Minister can't have it both ways.

His side voted down the request, a recom mendation by the Auditor-General saying in effect that you'll be able to ask those questions either of the Minister or in another committee. In this case, this is the department of the Minister, the questions in my opinion are legitimate and he should answer them.

And I'd also like to remind the Minister that when he took his oath of office that he not only has the respon sibility to certain people in his department or in his constituency, he has a responsibility to all the people of the pr ovince, regardless of how they voted, that he has a responsibility to all of the people of the province, not to a few individual friends or otherwise in the department, or to his constituents. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member from Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, one can only be a little bit amused at the performance of the Minister so far.

You know when the Minister got his appointment. we felt like we should congratulate him and wish him well and hope that his experience in this Chamber would be one that he could look back on as being a very profitable and a very fruitful one. 1lready, as far as I'm concerned, he's a bloody disaster. And first, you know he had the aud city to suggest to the Leader of the Oppos ition just a few moments ago that he should be very ind and very polite in the way he asks questions. After the way he introduced his_estimates he has the nerve to ask a question like that.

You know normally, sir, when the Minister introduces his estimates, what you expect to hear in that introduction is an accounting of his stewardship as a Minister, a resume of the programs and the policies and the hopes and the· aspirations of that particular department. But what did we hear?

We got a lecture on the co-operative movement which is so far outdated and so far removed from reality that it was laughable, and then the rest of the time we heard diatribe against the Leader of the Opposition for having the temerity and the audacity to even suggest that maybe, just maybe, there may be something wrong with the way that department is being conducted. And the very fact that the Minister chooses to have the Minister of Agriculture as his chief advisor is an indication of the kind of a support he seeks.

Usually a man can be judged by the kind of people he surrounds himself with and the kind of advisors that he has. The very fact that he's got the Minis ter of Agriculture there is an indi cation to me, sir, that he's getting the worst kind of ad vice, the very worst kind of advice. And it is being reflected in the statements that he's making, because what we're getting from the new Minister, the one that I'm sure his Leader had such high hopes for, is the same kind of garbage that came out of the Minister of Agriculture last year on this same issue.

The Minister perhaps is not aware of the fact that he has a responsibility to this Chamber and to the people of this province, and that responsibility is accounting for his stewardship, and that involves answering questions that are asked in this Chamber, and not avoiding ques tions and not trying to slough them off on somebody else or hiding behind some obscure reason as he is attempting to do here now.

The Minister is going to l�arn perhaps the hard way that he has a responsibility of informing the people of this House and the people of this province on what he is doing with their money, because it is their money that is being spent. And now his argument which was preceded last night by the suggestion that there was nothing wrong. If there's nothing wrong then what's wrong with answering the questions?

The reason that he's not answering the questions is because he's not sure, and if he's not sure then he should start a little soul-searching of his own, then he should start examining his own department, and he has the responsibility for that department. If there's something wrong in that department he

!\pril 23, 1975 1617 SUPPLY - CO-OPE RATIVE DEVE LOPMEN T (MR, JO RGENSON con t'd) ..... has a res ponsibility of corr ecting it, and if that means getting rid of the people who have caused the difficulty then he must take that step , but he in the final analysis is the one that has to answer and he can't hide behind his ci vil ser vants. He takes the re sponsibility. And don't give us that baloney about not naming civil servants, about hiding be hind civil serv ants. It's the Minister who's on trial here, it' s the Minister who is be ing questioned. And forget about hiding be hind so mebody else.

Answer the questions and you'll get along a lot better in this Chamber and may even esta blish a reputation for himself. As it is now you've got no reput ation because you've given no evidence in this House that you have any leader ship whatsoever . MR" CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR" SAUL CHERN IACK, Q. C. (St. Johns): You know, Mr. Chairman, one has to fight often to attain res pect in any co mmunity in which one lives or one works, but there are some member s of this House whose re spect I for one would not attempt to buy.

In answer to the kind of speeches made, especially by the Member for Morris and to a ... --(Interj ection)-- Who else made a contribution there ? --(Interj ection)-- Oh, there is a member pre sent who speaks so seldom that I have to find out what constituency - the Member for Gladstone who - and the Mem ber for •.. Mr. Chairman, I didn't even get started and alrea dy they're getting aroused. So let' s relax a littl e and maybe it would be just as well that I try to speak softly and slowly, slowly so that some can understand and softly so that some could re lax and stop yelling.

The Member for Souris -La nsdowne hasn't partici pated yet and why he's all excited when I haven't even started I really don't know. And he 's yelling again, Mr. Chairman. I haven't said a word yet and he's yelling at me and he hasn't said a word today that I'm aware of. So if he has a question to ask, to interrupt me , or if he has a proper point of order or privilege by all means, but just to sit there and yell is not helpful to anybody except possi bly to some of the member s of his party who would rather hear yelling than to hear some discussion. Mr.

Chairman, the Mem ber for Morris used some words that surprised me. He used the word when reporting to this House on what he understood the Minister to say about the re vealing of names, that for some "obscure re aso n, " obscure re ason, Mr. Chair man. Here is a parliam entarian from Morris, the man who is a satellite of John Dief enbaker , the man who sat in the House of Commons in Ottaw a, the man who has been sitting here for a length of time, who is now indignantly saying "You have to answer. You are the one who must acco unt. You ar e on trial. " Mr.

Chairman, let me assure the Honourable Member for Morris that he cannot put the Minister on trial by his saying that he's on trial. The trial of the Minister is the one that he faces when he meets with his Ca ucus and with his Pre mier. That is hi s trial. --( interjection )- Oh the Member for Birtle -Russell wants to make a contribution too. And the Me mber for Morris wants to make a co ntribution having made his speeche s, having talked and talked and now wants to talk some more. And I'm just dealing with the word, what he used, obscure, and put the Minister of Co-operatives on trial.

To me the Member for Morris is on trial for at tempting now to say that the effort of the Minister not to give the names of any civil ser vants whose activiti es are now under inve stigation lest they be smirched, that that is what the Member for Morris calls obscure and that is what he crit iciz es. That's what he said , "for some obscure reason. " And I refer to his parliam entary background because, I'm sure I haven't had as much detailed exposure to parli amentary procedure as the Member for Morris. MR0 JO RGEN SO N: That' s obvious. MR0 CHERN IACK: That' s obvious to him.

It' s also obvious to me that the Member for Morr is is prepared fo twis t parliam entary procedure to suit him and to suit his mood. And his mood today was an unplea sant mood, and his mood toda y was to attack the Minister for what I unders ta nd is a parli amentary attitud e; and that is, one does not discuss the names of people, especially in a House where one has the protection from any action.

And when there is an in ve stigation taking plac e, and we know it is, and the Minister says I'm not prepared to discuss the name of that person, the Member for Morris with all his grea t parliam entary background says that infor mation should be given because the reason is obscur e. Maybe it's obscure to him, maybe he doesn't understand, obviously he doesn't want to understand. And then he is saying the Minister can't hide be hind a public civil serva nt. I am not aware that he' s hiding behind anybody, he' s standing here and he's answering· questions.

He 's answer ing rude ques tions , he's answerin g insistent questions but ther e are some questions that he said that he

1618 April 23, 19 75 SUPPLY - co-OPERATIVE DEVELOPMENI' (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd) ..•.. doesn't have the information for. And I agree with the Member for Portage. I don't agree that every question thrown at the Minister must be answer ed, and he didn't say that. No, that's true he didn't say that. And I don't know that the Member for Portage has suggested that the names of the people who are still unde:r; a cloud of some kind should not be revealed. I don't think he suggested that be given, but he said answers should be given. . Well I've been here since we started on these estimates.

I have heard the Minister say that he does not have the information available at his hand and will bring it back. Maybe the record will show differently but I certainly understood-him to say it. And I believe he will give that information which is proper.

And I would advise him- and he's been reminded more than once by members opposite that he is a young Minister, and obviously they mean both young and new- I would advise him not to rush forward with answers but that to consider the questions that were asked, not in the vein in which they were asked but in a realistic way, the questions that were asked which are properly asked to be responded to and respond to them.

And I would ask him to take advice from parliamentarians whom he respects, and I would ask him to take advice from the Attorney- General who I believe is waiting for some reports in connection with some of the matters raised, and find out what is proper for him to respond to and what-is not. What is proper he should respond to. And I believe he will. And to the extent that he needs any encouragement I give it to him. Mr.

Chairman, there's no doubt in my mind that the Leader of the Opposition- you re member when he broke the case last year, I think it was on this matter- Oh no, he broke the case on some other matter that most people have forgotten about. And now he is talking about this matter. He made a big enough fuss about it last year when indeed he did accuse people in government of not only improper, unethical but illegal activities of a criminal nature. Now I don't know whether he would support the fact that last year he did make accusations about criminality or suggesting criminality. He did not do it to my ..• MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Point of Order. MR. CHERNIACK: By all means. MR. SPIV AK: . . . or a point of privilege. If the question . . • MR. CHERNIACK: You've got a point of order. MR. SPIVAK: Are you suggesting the question of criminality was with respect to the Co-ops? MR. CHAIRMAN: Point of Order. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, I know I shouldn't need your protection but I think most people who debate in this House do need protection from the Leader of the Opposition who uses this phrase, "A point of order," like Senator McGarthy did when he was confronted with problems that he couldn't quite cope with. I wish the Member from Morris, who still poses as a parliamentary theoretician of that party, wo"uld have a serious talk with his Leader and tell him what a point of order is. It would he helpful. Mr.

Chairman, I'm talking about the fact that when I heard the Le ader of theOpposition yesterday it seemed to me that he changed his tune from a year ago. It seemed to me that a year ago he was wide and heavy with_his accusations. It seemed to me that he was demanding charges to be laid almost a moment after the words had dropped from his mouth. And it seem ed to me that yesterday he was changing his tack and talking about what has been admitted tim e and time again, and that is that there have been bad administrative practices in this depart ment. And the Minister said it yesterday.

I know the Minister laid himself open by the way he counter-attacks both what was said a year ago and what he knew would be said immediately after he sat down, and that was a matter for his choice as his tactic. But he said yesterday that there are administrative matters that had to be corrected. And all that the Auditor General has been telling us all along is that there have been administrative matters that have to be corrected, but he went further, He said they are in the process of being corrected. And the Minister yesterday spelled it out in greater detail.

He talked about the audit function that has heen established within the department. He's talked about administrative matters to be corrected. So we know now that that is on end, and the Auditor's report says so. And the Leader of the Opposition who was quoting from the Au ditor's report has not quoted those sec tions to my recollection, the sections that report, almost in every case, the Auditor's com ment that matters are being attended to.

\pril 23, 1975 SUPPLY - CO-OP ERATIVE DEVELOPMENT (MR. CH ERNIACK cont'd) 1619 I' m glad that the Leader of the Op pos ition did say that he has spoken to the Provincial Auditor , because I had the impress ion that slightly before he had said that, he denied talking to the Pr ovincial Auditor. The fact is he has talked to the Provincial Auditor. MR" SPIVAK: Mr. Chairman, on a point of privilege ... MR" CHAIRMAN: Point of privilege. The Honourable Le ader of the Opposition. MR" SPIVAK: I indicated to the Honourable Minister that I did not speak to the Provincial Auditor on thi s matter.

I spoke to the Provincial Auditor , I spoke to him earlier last year be fore any represen tation was made into this House by myself with res pect to this matter and other matters. Because, Mr. Chairman, just so the record will show, I want to ... MR" CHAIRMAN: Is this the point of order ? MR" SPIVAK: Yes. I want it on the . . . MR" CHAIRMAN: Is that the point of order ? MR . SPIVAK: Yes. I want to understand how he operated. MR CHE RNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I plead with the Leader of the Opposition, please if you have aspirations to lead , learn the rules of the House, so that you don't abuse them.

MR" SPIVAK: On a point of privilege. Mr. Chairman ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposi tion. MR" SPIVAK: On a point of privilege, I rose, not on a point of . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Is it the same point of priv ilege or is it another point of privileg� because you didn't have a point of privilege before. MR" SPIVAK: Well, if you rule that I had no point of privilege before ... MR. CHAIRMAN: You had a difference of opinion. MR" SPIVAK: Well if the Minister's entitled to misquote me , then this is fine, because that's in effect what he did. MR0 CHAIRMAN: He's interpreting your remarks.

The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR" CHERNIACK: I think I was saying before I was interrupted that I was pleading with the Leader of the Oppo sition that if he purports to wish to be a leader, he should at least learn the rules of the House, and he ther eupon proved how right I was in making that plea to him. So I can only repeat the plea to him. And I'm saying that he knows he has and has used, the right of access to the Provincial Auditor.

Does he doubt, does he doubt the statement made by the Minister yes ter day that the Auditor has to date been unable or has not found anything of a criminal nature in his investigations in this department? A MEMBER: Can't find the books. MR0 CHERNIACK: I wonder who made that contribution about books.

You know there ar e people, there are people opposite who are much more at ease speaking from their seats than when they stand , and now I would ask whoever that anonymous person is - and I don't know who it was - has he asked the Auditor how the Auditor could say that there is no evidence of criminality when he now says he couldn't find the books , because the fact is the Auditor's gone into that question too. And the fact is that the Auditor has stated that. And you can be as smart-alecky as you like, but don't throw around the position ... MR0 CHAIRMAN: Point of order. The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR.

DAVID BLAKE (Minnedosa): Mr. Chairman, I would inform the Minister I was not trying to be smart-alecky. It was indicated in the Auditor's report he had difficulty in tracing books and records, and I merely stated that. MR " CHAIRMAN: Or der please. That is not a point of order. MR. CHER NIACK: Mr . Ch airman, it's certainly not a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: I did not recognize the honourable member's remarks in any case. MR. BLAKE: Sorry about that, Mr. Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: Or der please. ORDER PLE ASE !

Now again we're getting back into the situation where we were last night, where people arc gaining the floor through an illegal method. I would ask honourable members to read the rules and read Beauchesne. In fact an honourable member in times gone by had been named by a speaker for insisting in interrupting, interrupting to ask questions. Read your Beauchesne some time. The Honourable Member for Morr is will bear me out on that. A

I 1620 SUPPLY- CO-OPERATIVE DEVELOPMENT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. I April 23, 1975 MR. CHERNIAC K: Mr. Chairman, it is interesting - I honestly didn't know who had hollered out about the books and I responded to an anonymous person opposite and he then identified himself, and maybe to that extent it's a matter of his privilege to decide whether or not to do it.

But I am saying that the Provincial Auditor, who has appeared before two meetings of the Public Accounts Committee, a committee which used to dispose of its business very quickly, but who appeared before two meetings, and I don't know if we passed Page 2. Maybe the anony mous person opposite would confirm that we may have passed Page 1 of the Auditor's report. I'm referring to the Chairman of the Committee who was conducting that affair. We have still before us in Public Accounts the very matters which are being asked here today. Are you aware of that, Mr.

Chairman, that on Pages 18 or 19 or 20 something of the Auditor's report there is more specific reference to matters in this department, and there wasn't the slightest suggestion that they would not be discussed when we came to them, and that we have yet to come to them but that we haven't had the opportunit y because there's been that much debate preceding it. But setting that aside, Mr. Chairman, I heard the Minister say that he would look into the questions asked by the Leader of the Opposition. I believe he will, I urge him to do it.

I urge him, however, not to answer any of the questions unless he has satisfied himself that they are properly asked and properly answered. I want him to respect the tradition, and I don't want him to name people whose names are under kind of investigation or any cloud. I think he owes it to them and I think we owe it to them, and I would urge him to be cautious in that res pect. Mr. Chairman, one other point I wanted to mention. You used the word, in reprimanding the Member for Minnedosa, you used the word that he was using a tactic that was illegal. And you were right.

It was not a legal tactic according to the rules of this House. The Leader of the Opposition has used the word "illegal" when indeed he was speaking abou� the Auditor saying that something - I think it was the entity of a certain organization, I use that word loosely, as something that was set up, was not set up on a legal basis. I believe it's something to that effect that he said- not in a legal manner. And I suppose it's correct to say if it's not legal, that it must be illegal.

But there are connotations to the word "illegal" which I would like to think the Leader of the Opposition is not lending to his use of the word "illegal'� and that is that it is of a criminal nature. Now I believe a year ago he would have said it was of a criminal nature, and today I think he's a little more cautious because he went out on a limb a year ago and to this date has not been able to substantiate his charges that attempted to fix a criminal aspect to what had gone on.

And I think that when he used the word "illegal" today and referred to it as being in the report is the word - well now, I would ask him and invite him to interrupt me, if the word "illegal" is actually in that report. But of course he doesn't like to break the rules except when it suits him. And his advisor the Member of Morris helps to decide for him, when it suits him, when to break the rules or not. Well, fair game, fair game, Mr. Chair man. I'm under the impression that the word was that it was not set up on a legal basis, and you know, I ac cept the fact he can call it illegal.

But if the word "Hlegal" appears there, I would like that drawn to my attention because I'd like to know its context and whether there's a suggestion of criminality. Because I too believe that to this date there has been no evidence of criminal actions within that department. I think that's terribly important. To put people under a cloud for administrative incompetence is not a nice thing to do, but it is a much worse thing to do to suggest a criminal act, especially against people who have no way of responding in this House.

And I would like to think that we have already passed that stage, that we went through the stage of suggestions of criminal activities or of acts such as what should result in a charge in a criminal court. And I'm now talking about administrative procedures. It would be a lot more helpful I think to this committee if the Leader of the Opposition or other members were to ask the Minister detailed questions about what the department is now doing to correct the administrative weaknesses that became apparent from last year. And I personally would like to know.

I would like the Minister to tell us what is being done in order to see to it that sloppy administration is being corrected. I'd like to hear that; that's a posi tive thing. You're asking this Minister to account for his administration of his department, and if you ask for that then you would have to ask what has he done since he's come into this -tr

Apr il 23, 1975 1621 SUPPLY - CO-OP ERATIVE DEVELOPMENT (MR. CH ERNIACK cont'd) ..... responsibility. And, you know, I'd like to hear the answer. I'd like to know what he is doing to see to it that there's an improvement. And at the same time I will not for a moment forget what he said yesterday, which to me had great meaning, and that is if you want to help people to learn to run an operation, you take a risk in having them run it and run it properly. When he re lated the losse s to the benefits , that didn't to me justify the losses, but it did put them in a sense of proportion which I think is important.

I think one has to stop to think about whether or not a viable operation is imposs ible in the North or whether we continue the old welfare policy operation. That's pr etty important. Now I don't at this stage want to get into a wr angle of name calling or of downgrading what went before, but let's talk about the future. Should there be an effort to establish co operatives ? Should there be loans ? Should there be the possibility of losse s because of bad administration ? Or should we just wipe out this department and go back to doing nothing? Let's talk about that.

Now I think there are members opposite who would want to do that, would want to discuss how we should deal with problems of the North in the future, and whether or not we believe in the co-operative movement and should we attempt to support the co-operative move ment. I'd like to hear discuss ions of that nature. But I tell you gentlemen opposite that your leader is more interested in his efforts to becloud and besmirch the past than plan for the future, and I don't give you all that kind of a description.

So I have to invite members other than the leader to talk about their hopes and aspirations for the North in terms of what this Department of Co -operative Development could do. It's fair to say that what they have done in the past that hasn't worked out, should be corrected. It's fair to say that what they have done in the past and weren't adequate, should be improved.

But let's talk about what members oppo site believe should be done, and there are supporter s of the co-operative movement in the Conservative ra nks ; and ther e are people in the Conservative Party in this House who are concerned about the developments in the North. And I'd like to hear something positive coming from them at a time when we are supposed to be discuss ing programatic problems. We are attempting to discuss what are the objectives, and we want to know about the past and I have sa id that I hope will give us answers.

But let's not forget that we are not talking about the budget of moneys yet to be spent, programs yet to be developed. I hope that after we are through with the vitu perative debate that we have been having up to now, that members opposite will get down to pr etty important discuss ions on their aspira tions and hopes for the future. That I think will be much more helpful.

I don't know if the Member for Morris is ris ing because he has a point of order or a matter of pr ivilege, or whether he's ris ing because he's tired of sitting, but in any event I can assure him that I will not deliberately continue in order to prevent his contribution. I'm debating in my mind whether I should forecast the nature of his contribution.

I just decided that by forecasting it I will in effect be forcing it in a certain direction; so rather than forecast it I think I'll just sit back and hear what contribution he has yet to make today on this matter of the department and its estimates for the corning year. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR . JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, I don't intend at any great length to re spond to the Member for St. Johns, other than to say that he made a speech yesterday too, and of the two, the one he made today and the one he made yesterday, I don't know which one could be classi fied as the most ludicrous.

Because in retrospect we know now what kind of ma terial was in the speech that he made yesterday and perhaps .who knows,, in retrospect tomorrow we will know what is contained in his speech today. Mr. Chairman, it has been my experience that the manner in which a debate is conducted depends on the quality of the leadership in the House and the leadership that is provided is pro vided by the Minister whose estimates are being conducted through the House. They can be, as the Minister sa id, vituperative, they can be loud and they can be se arching and they can be many other things .

Yes, and they can also be very careful and a very calm analys is and examination of a Minister's department. But that depends on the Minister. And I don't like to use examples opposite for fear of sl ighting somebody, but the Minister of Highways on occasion and the Minister of Mines and Resources when he introduces his estimates very often se ts the tone. He sets the tone because what he does is provide an analys is, an accounting of his stewardship which is so mething that we haven't got from that Minister.

And if it's necessary to conduct a debate in a quiet and a calm manner the Minister can do that, he can do that by

1622 April 23, 1975 SUPPLY- CQ-OPERATIVE DEVELOP MENT (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) ..... providing the answers that are asked to questions and pro viding an atmosphere that is conducive to a searching examination of his department. I agree with the Member for St. J ohns that we are concerned and we'd like to conduct an examination of this department, and a pro per one.

But it will depend on the Minister's attitude and if he continues in the state that he has started out in the conduct of his estimates, then he can rest assured the conduct of estimates in his department is going to be a pretty wild and a pretty wooly affair. I can guarantee him that.

He wants to get his estimates through, and that should be the desire of every Minister to try and get his estimates through with as little furor as possible, and the way to do that is to submit to questioning and not act as though we have no right to ask questions, which is what the Minis ter is doing right at the moment. --(Interjection)- Well now the Minister wants me to answer the questions. He is the one that's supposed to be answering the questions.

I'll make a deal with the Minister: I'll be willing to submit to a ques tion with him if he's willing to answer questions that we ask on this side of the House. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Minister of Co-operative Affairs. MR. BOSTROM: I'm perfectly willing to answer questions, Mr. Chairman, but my ques tion of the honourable member is in relation to the questions asked by his Honourable Leader, and that is in reference to the Co-operative Feder ation and the report of the Provincial Auditor.

Will the member answer me yes or no if he believes that I should provide in this House, right now, the names of the individuals under investigation by the Provincial Auditor and the Attorney General 1 s De partment? MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, it is my view that the Minister has conduct of his own department and he can't- and that's the point that the Member for St.

Johns happens to have overlooked - that the Minister can't on the one hand say that there's nothing wrong, that every thing is fine in the department and then on the other hand say well I can't answer any questions because there may be an investigation, there may be something wrong. He can't have it both ways. Either there is or there isn't.

The Minister of course is at liberty if he feels that there is good and sufficient reasons why certain questions - pe rhaps he doesn't know the answer - and since he's a new Minister I don't expect that at all times he's going to be in a position to be able to answer all the questions that are going to be asked and have them at his!ingertips. We don't expect that of anybody. But legitimate questions that are asked in this Ch mber require at least reasonable answers, and if answers cannot be provided then reasons w y they cannot be provided should at least be given to this· House.

But not the kind of double-talk that the Minister's been giving us in this issue. That's one of the things that the Minister should learn, that that kind of double-talk will only provoke more questions, . and if he wants to avoid that sort of thing then he's got a responsi bility to be honest with this Chamber, and I suggest to him that getting advice from the Minister of Agriculture is the very worst possible place he could get it from, A ME MBER: Ask th e Premier about it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Well the Minister has continually asked me to answer his questions.

I've answered his question. I've answered his question .. If there's nothing wrong then say so; if there is something wrong then you have-a res ponsi bility to deal with those people. They shouldn't even be in the department if they've com mitted something wrong. They should be . . well my hono urable frien d says yes and no. You know how ridiculous can these ... You know. look at that group in the back bench over there. Just look at them. How ridiculous can they get, you know. The lambs led to the slaughter.

It doesn't matter what the front bench do it's going to be a ready acceptance of whatever is done in the front bench. No questions asked whatsoever. They're right no ma tter what happens. That's the attitude of honourable gentle men opposite. Well, Mr. Chairman, the Minister has it within his own hands as to how his Estimates are going to be conducted in this House, and I am not going to ·give him any advice. I'm going to point out to him that he has control of that and how he handles it will depend on how his estimates get through the House, MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Co-operative Development. MR.

BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the advice given me by the Member for Morris. I would have appreciated it even more1though ,if he could have answered my question,

!\.pril 23, 1975 1623 SUPPLY - CO-O PERATIVE DEVELOPMENT (MR. BOST ROM cont'd) ..... because the question I believe was germane to the questions that are before me at this time. The quest ions before me that are asked by the Honourable Leader of the Opposit ion are specifically names of the employees that were involved in the Co operative Federation. He also asked me what expenses these same employees were charging in the duties they were carry ing out with re spect to the Co-operative Federation. He also asked me further questions about expenses in there. And as I've indicated, Mr.

Chairman, these answers can be supplied in due course. I was asking simply members opposite if they really believe that it's my responsibility to give the names of the individuals that are under investigation by the Provincial Auditor and the Attorney-General's Department. If they really think that that is the case I want them to stand up one by one and say yes or no to that quest ion. And if honourable members opposite will do that then I can comply. I asked the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie, and I would say it's to his credit, Mr.

Chairman, it's to his credit that the adv ice he gave back to me was that if I felt there was something in there that perhaps would besmirch the character of these individuals that I should not make reference to names of individuals when they' re still under investigation. I believe that' s the answer he gave to me. And I would say, Mr. Chairman, that that is to his credit and I have a great deal of re spect for the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. Mr.

Chairman, with respect to the contr ibution of the Honourable Member for Morr is I believe that when he says it's my resp ons ibility to not hide behind civil serv ants he's absolutely correct. But at the sa me time, Mr. Chairman, I believe it's a Minister's responsibility to support the public serva nts that are working in his department, and, Mr. Chairman, not to bring their names forward in a loose and frivolous fashion in this House, bandy them around so that their names appear in the press. Mr.

Chairman, I believe it's my responsibility as a Minister to support the staff working in my department, and until such a time, Mr. Chairman, as I am convinced that ther e has been some wrongdoing on the part of ser vants in the depart ment, of public serv ants working in the employ of the Province of Manitoba, that I will not bring their names forward here on the bas is of allegations that have been put forward. Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Member for Morris said that I have the opportunity to set the tone. Mr.

Chairman, I'm ver y much interested in hearing the opinions and advice of members oppos ite with respect to these Estimates. I would submit, Mr. Chairman, that mem bers oppos ite also have a responsibility to set the tone. Last sess ion, Mr. Chairman, the tone was set for the Est imates of the Department of Co-operative Development, not by the Minister, not by the Minister of Agriculture, they were set by the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Chair man, they started, I would say a month before the estimates came up. Mr.

Chairman, there were 32 questions or 36 questions asked in one day in this House and they were all made in a form of allegation. Every one of those questions were answered, every one of those questions were answered, Mr. Chairman. And the criminal, the criminal element, the criminal charges that were levied by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition have not been substantiated, they have not been substantiated. And I say, Mr. Chairman, in closing I say, Mr.

Chairman, that let's have a reaso nable debate on this department, let's have a reasonable discuss ion and dialogue and le t's not have this name calling, let's not have these charges being levelled unless there is solid evidence to back them up. Mr. Chairman, I'm prepared to answer any questions that honourable members opposite want to make. MR . CHAIRMAN: 4:30, the last hour of every day being Private Members' Hour, com mittee rise and report. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has directed me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. MR .

SPEAKER: Orde r pleas e. The Honourable Member for Logan. MR . WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, se conded by the Honourable Member for Thompson that the report of the Committee be re ceived. MO TION presented and carr ied.

1624 April 23, 1975 PRIVATE MEMBERS' HOUR MR. SPEAKER: First item this afternoon," Private Members' Hour, is the Order for Return that's under debate. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. ORDER FOR RETURN MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, when debate was interrupted on this Order for Return a week ago I was in the midst of emphasizing the point that here we have a request for some information about an expenditure in the neighbourhood of $9, 000 and it's a request on which we can get no answers and no information from this Minister or this Government.

And that seems to me to be particularly incredible and particularly cynical. The expenditure is not large by Government standards, certainly by the standards of this government, nonetheless it should not be minimized, $9, 271 is still a great deal of money, but in terms of the overall budget and spending program that we're looking at, it is to be sure a relat ively insignificant amount of money.

And yet for that amount of money we get the typical kind of performance that we've had all through this session from the Minister of Agriculture, a refusal to disclose, a refusal to meet the legitimate inquiries of the opposition and to provide information as to what it constitutes. And I was saying on that occasion, Mr.

Speaker, that if this is the kind of response we get, if this is the kind of blind alley that we rill). into when we're seeking some information about an expenditure in the neighbourhood of $9, 000, what can the & opposition, what can the people of Manitoba look forward to if we are seeking information about ' an expenditure of $90, 000 much less $900, 000 or much less the $1 billion that we're looking at in the overall program of the Government.

It augurs great difficulty indeed for the people of Manitoba when it comes to looking at the budget that is to be brought down in this House in a few days' time, when it comes to consider ing the overall spending program presented in the total estimates program, when we can't, Mr. Speaker, get a straightforward answer from this Minister to a legitimate question about an item that, as I suggest, is relatively small in sio:e measured against the budget as a whole. It's interesting to note, Mr.

Speaker, that a few moments ago when the Minister of Co operatives was refusing to provide answers to questions or to divulge information legitimately sought by my Leader and others during consideration of his Estimates, it's interesting to note that there was one particular member of the front benches opposite who moved over and sat beside him. And who should it be, Mr. Speaker, but the old master of the non-answer, the old master of evasion, the old master of silence in the face of legitimate questioning, the Minister of Agriculture, silent Sam.

It was the Minister of Agriculture who moved over like the old wolf, the leader of the pack sat beside the young warrior, the neophyte, and instructed him or coun selled him or at least set the example for him in maintaining silence and in refusing to meet questions of the opposition. And no one on that side could have a better teacher, Mr. Speaker. It certainly was an appropriate and a symbolic move I think. No one on that side could have a better teacher, a better example set for him in that area than the young Minister of Co operatives received from the old wolf, the Minister of Agriculture.

There they were sitting together staring down the opposition, refusing to concede that there were legitimate questions being asked. As my colleague from Lakeside suggests, we had a beautiful conspiracy of silence on the front benches in froQt of us, Mr.

Speaker, and I must say that it was a perfor mance worthy of the Minister of Agriculture who has set that kind of tone and that kind of example when we have asked him questions and desired information from his department, par ticularly in the area of his estimates, and specifically in these last two or three weeks with respect to the Order for Return introduced by the Memb er for Portage la Prairie and before us now.

So I was not surprised that we either had that kind of a combination or that we got the kind of non-cooperation and non-response from the Minister of Co-operatives that took place a few moments ago. For there,as I say, Mr. Speaker, was the silent Minister of Agriculture showing him how to do it. The Minister of Agriculture has steadfastly, and without budging from the adamant position of non-cooperation that he brought to this Order of Return when it first came into the House, steadfastly refused to concede that there is a legitimate question

�pril 23, 1975 1625 ORDER FOR RETURN (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) ..... perhaps involving gover nment ethics and government morality involved in this particular Order for Return, Mr . Speaker. As the Member for Portage has pointed out in his remarks, as my colleagues the Member for Lakes ide, the Member for Morris, the Member for St.

James have pointed out in debate on this Order for Return up to this point in time, the Government appears to have done something here that is not provided for under the legislation setting up the Milk Control Board, and yet the Minister has refused to even set our inquiries and our concerns at eas e on that point. We have pointed out that the Milk Control Board was not esta blished in order to be the se rvant of a corporation, pr ivate or otherwise, se eking a

part icular goal or ambition of its own. We have pointed out that the legislation no where provided for the kind of publicly funded study, publicly funded inquiry as apparently is constituted by the item referred to in the Order for Return - the Whey Plant Proposal. But none of that has affected the Minister, Mr. Speaker, it's rolled off his back like the water off a duck's back. It hasn't persuaded him one degree to look at the ethics or the morality of what has been done here and satisfy the people of Manitoba through their repres entatives on this side of the House that all was kosher and all was above board.

So he has got to live - if he's not prepared to concede the legitimacy of the request and provide the information asked for in the Order for Return before us, he's got to live with the continuing susp icion that the governm ent has violated the legislation in question, that the gover nment has in fact used the legislation setting up the Milk Control Board to pursue its own ends and that the government has under its own peculiar

interpretation of that legislation used something in excess of $9, OOO of public money, taxpayers money, to pave the way for an enter prise of its own, to meet a particular ideology, to meet a particular philosophical goal which is intended to nail down the constituency of Selkirk for them politically and intended to reinforce their particular political pos ition at the present time. If he wants to live with that, Mr.

Speaker, then he has to live with it and it's all well and good for him and his colleagues to respond with nervous laughter as they appear to be doing, but the question remains on the record and it remains on the record that he has ducked that question and refused either to face up to the question of morality in terms of the study and the proposal undertaken, or refused to even acknowledge that the people of Manitoba have a right to know that this was not mishandled and that the legislation was not advocated. So we leave him with that on his own conscience, Mr.

Speaker, and it would be interesting to see what may transpire in months and years ahead when members of this Legislature, including the Minister of Agriculture, face the electorate and face questions on the hustings in the next general election campaign, I would hope.

I'm sure that there will be people in his audience who will ask him about the morality of what has been done here, will ask him what that $9, 271 was spent on, and if, as it appears to be, if it was spent on paving the way to build a plant to meet a political ideology and a political promise, and to reinforce a hold on a consti tuency, then what kind of faith in the ethics and the morality of the Minister and of the govern ment can this side of the House and can the voters of Manitoba have when it comes to their total programming of application of spending funds ? Mr.

Speaker, the Member for Lakes ide in his remarks raised the question as to whether the Minister had sought the opinions of consumers or primary producers before deciding in his own mind to go ahead with this project assoc iated with Cr ocus Foods at Selkirk. The question remains unanswered. The Minister of Agriculture has not told us of any instances in which he sought the opinions of the industry, in which he sought the opinions of the consumer.

Lacking that kind of reassurance from the Minister, I suggest to him it's not unreasonable for us to conclude that the decision was made in a political back room, independent of what the consum ers need or what they care about, independent of what the primary producers need or what they care about, independent of the consideration mentioned quite extens ively by earlier speakers in this debate, of making sure that projects such as a whey plant, such as a milk-processing plant, are located close to the sources of supply so as not to put any more strain on that aspect of the agr icultural industry than already exists .

Independent of those considerations, this Minister has decided, provided he gets his DREE grant, as he admitted, to go ahead with the development related to Cr ocus Foods in Selkirk. So the only conclusion that we are left with and which we want to leave on the record failing a reas onable res pons e and an attempted explanation by the Minister, Mr. Speaker, is that this dec ision was made in a political back room by the Minister and his political cronies to nail down that particular constituency and to A

1626 April 23, 1975 · ORDER FOR RETURN (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) .... . pursue a particular ideology which has, as its goal, the con trol by this government of authority over the dairy industry of Manitoba. We leave that on the record at this point, Mr. Speaker, until the Minister decides to break with his practice of evasion and silence and non-answers, and accept the challenge of meeting those legitimate accusations.

They are accusations, I concede, but they are legitimate accusations failing some kind of response from the Minister, failing some kind of attempt on his part to straighten the record out and to give satisfaction to the representatives of the people of Manitoba who sit on this side of the Chamber. Until he does something in that respect, until he responds to the Order for Return introduced by the Member for Portage, we can only conclude, Mr.

Speaker, that it was a crass, ideological, political move, aimed at reinforcing the New Democratic Party in one particular constituency, and aimed at centralizing control over the dairy industry for their political ends. MR. SPEAKER: T he Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: You know, Mr. Speaker, nothing amuses me more . A MEMB ER: Than the Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Yes, than the Minister of Labour. Yes, I know you would, and I believe that you would be able to app roach any proposition to a far greater degree if you sat on your fanny for the rest of the sessiori:i� .. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

MR. PAULLEY: ... because every time that you stand up, you put your mouth into deliberations. And, Mr. Speaker, I'm not standing in this House to hear from my friend the Member for Lansdowne-Killarney any criticism of a personal nature. I have learned, as indeed apparently my honourable friend from Souris-Lansdowne hasn't learned, that there is courtesy due to members of this Assembly . .A MEMBER: Why weren't you informed of this? MR. PAULLEY: We may be able to fault, we may be able to fault .. . --(Interjections)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. PAULLEY: Yes, as a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest to my honour able friend that his head should be hanged, possibly a different way than he has inferred. And I would suggest to my honourable friend that if he continues to conduct himself· fiB he is at the present time, that we will not have a mass hanging within this Assembly but hi' head will be hanged outside of this Assembly. And well deservedly so. What I wanted to say at the offset, Mr. Speaker, is how I admire the approaches of the Honourable Member for Fort Garry in his approaches to the democratic process of govern ment.

My heart goes out to him because of his lack of knowledgeability of what democracy is all about.

As a matter of fact, after having listened to him for a few moments this afternoon, one could not but come to the conclusion that there is no need in this democratic system of society that we believe in but that there shou!d only be one party, that every article, that every investigation that is conducted into the affairs of state, should be combined efforts undertaken by a dictatorship as suggested by my honourable friend from Fort Garry; that no matter what happens, every one should have the opportunity of being fully conversant with everyt hing that is going on.

From what he said this afternoon, he would not give license to a government even at an expenditure of some $9, 000, to investigate into ways and means of improving the econo my of the province.

The other day when response was being made by the Honourable the Minister of Agricul ture to the request of the Honourable Member for Portage for information in respect of Crocus Foods and an expenditure of 9, 000-odd dollars, the Minister at that time said that there had been ample opportunity by the members of the Assembly to question he, the Minister, and his department, in respect of all aspects of the expenditure of the $9, 000-odd. Mr.

Speaker, it was not done, but here, lo and behold, a year later it appears, it appears that apart from the intelligent approach of the Member for Fort Garry, the agricultural expert from Fort Garry has picked up what he now finds to be a red herring. Surely it is ... MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie .. . MR. G. JOHNSTON: .. . on a matter of privilege to correct the .. . MR . SPEAKER: .. . state his matter of privilege. MR. G. JOHNSTON: .. . statement made by the Minister. He stated that I had not attempted, I understand him to say, I had not attempted to obtain the information. I just

Apr il 23, 197 5 1627 ORDER FOR RETURN (MR. G. JOHNSTON cont'd) ..... want to inform the Honourable Mi niste r that I asked the Mi ni ster of Agr i.culture, durin g his Estima tes, for a copy of that proposal and he refused me. MR . PAULLEY : That's ri ght. I rec ognize that. MR . SPEAK ER : Order please. Inci dentally, so as we won't get wrong, that was not a matter of privilege. That was an explanation. The Honourable Mi nister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: No, Mr. Speaker, I hope my honourable friend doesn't get me wrong. I was not re ferr ing to the Memb er for Portage. He ma y have done it.

What I was inferrin g, that this year, following up the lead of the Honourable Memb er for. Portage, the new-found agr icul tural expert of the muni cipality of the constit uency of Fort Garry has dis covered, in his own inim it able way, so mething that he would like to raise in order to establish hims elf as another expert in the field of agriculture, particularly pertainin g to the questions that were ask ed prev iously by the Member for Porta ge la Prai rie.

So I hope that I did not lead my honourable friend from Portage la Prairie down the garden path, but I was trying to explain that while I reco gnize that he, as a memb er of this Ass embly, quite legitima tely had asked these quest ions, the cry has now been rai sed by the very knowledgeable Croc us Food expert from Fort Garry. But my main point, Mr. Speaker, is that gover nment is charged wit h the respons ibilit y, and has been historic ally, of attempt ing to investigate into ways and means of enhancing the (_ economy of the Province of Ma nitoba.

I would suggest to the Honourable the Member for Portage that when his gover nment was in power they did likewise. I suggest even the Conser vative Party from time to time did attempt to find some me thodology to enhance the well-being of the Province of Manitoba. I think that it will be agr eed by a co nsidera ble majority of the m embers of this House that the · Conservative Party of Manitoba failed, and failed mi serably, to enhance the well-being of the Province of Manitoba, but I do give them the credit for attemptin g to do so. But they did it, Mr .

Speaker, the same way as is bein g done at the pre se nt time, through internal investiga tions into ways and me ans in which things can be done to enhance the economy and for the betterm ent of the Province of Manit oba. This afternoon we heard the Honourable Member for Fort Garry cr iticize this gover n ment for doing what had been done in the past by both Conservat

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-2-58
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Volume / chapter	30th 2nd hansardpdf 58.pdf
Language	en
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