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April 11, 2013

40th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2013-Apr-11 (PDF)

L023 - Thu 11 Apr 2013 / Jeu 11 avr 2013

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Thursday 11 April 2013 Jeudi 11 avril 2013

ORDERS OF THE DAY

AMBULANCE AMENDMENT ACT

(AIR AMBULANCES), 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR LES AMBULANCES

(SERVICES D’AMBULANCE AÉRIENS)

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

MEMBERS’ HOCKEY GAME

ORAL QUESTIONS

TEACHERS’ COLLECTIVE BARGAINING

PAN AM GAMES

CANCER TREATMENT

CANCER TREATMENT

POWER PLANTS

CASINOS

INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY

ARBITRATION

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

CONSUMER PROTECTION

ENERGY POLICIES

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION

PUBLIC TRANSIT

POWER PLANTS

POWER PLANTS

WEARING OF PINS

VISITOR

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

ALFREDO DEGASPERIS

LIBERTY VILLAGE

COMMUNITY LEADERS

VOLUNTEER SERVICE AWARDS

COMMERCIAL INSURANCE

WOMEN PILOTS

CANADIAN CANCER SOCIETY

HEALTH CARE

JAMES CARSON

VISITORS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

SIKH HERITAGE MONTH, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 SUR LE MOIS

DU PATRIMOINE SIKH

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

VAISAKHI

PETITIONS

HOSPITAL PARKING FEES

DIAGNOSTIC SERVICES

ONTARIO COLLEGE OF TRADES

OFFICE OF THE OMBUDSMAN

LAND USE PLANNING

GOVERNMENT SERVICES

WIND TURBINES

LONG-TERM CARE

FIREARMS CONTROL

LEGISLATIVE PAGES

CANCER TREATMENT

ELECTRICITY GENERATION

TIRE DISPOSAL

SPRINGWATER PROVINCIAL PARK

PRIVATE MEMBERS’

PUBLIC BUSINESS

MINING AMENDMENT ACT

(RESOURCES PROCESSED

IN ONTARIO), 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR LES MINES

(RESSOURCES TRANSFORMÉES

EN ONTARIO)

OMBUDSMAN AMENDMENT ACT

(CHILDREN’S AID SOCIETIES), 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR L’OMBUDSMAN

(SOCIÉTÉS D’AIDE À L’ENFANCE)

PUBLIC SECTOR CAPACITY

TO PAY ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 SUR LA CAPACITÉ

DE PAYER DU SECTEUR PUBLIC

MINING AMENDMENT ACT

(RESOURCES PROCESSED

IN ONTARIO), 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR LES MINES

(RESSOURCES TRANSFORMÉES

EN ONTARIO)

OMBUDSMAN AMENDMENT ACT

(CHILDREN’S AID SOCIETIES), 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR L’OMBUDSMAN

(SOCIÉTÉS D’AIDE À L’ENFANCE)

PUBLIC SECTOR CAPACITY

TO PAY ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 SUR LA CAPACITÉ

DE PAYER DU SECTEUR PUBLIC

MINING AMENDMENT ACT

(RESOURCES PROCESSED

IN ONTARIO), 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR LES MINES

(RESSOURCES TRANSFORMÉES

EN ONTARIO)

OMBUDSMAN AMENDMENT ACT

(CHILDREN’S AID SOCIETIES), 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR L’OMBUDSMAN

(SOCIÉTÉS D’AIDE À L’ENFANCE)

PUBLIC SECTOR CAPACITY

TO PAY ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 SUR LA CAPACITÉ

DE PAYER DU SECTEUR PUBLIC

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

AMBULANCE AMENDMENT ACT

(AIR AMBULANCES), 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR LES AMBULANCES

(SERVICES D’AMBULANCE AÉRIENS)

Resuming the debate adjourned on April 9, 2013, on the motion for second reading of the following bill:

Bill 11,

An Act to amend the Ambulance Act with respect to air ambulance services / Projet de loi 11, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les ambulances en ce qui concerne les services d’ambulance aériens.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate?

Mr. Jim Wilson: I rise today to participate in the debate once again on Bill 11,

An Act to amend the Ambulance Act. This bill, as everyone knows, has been revived by the Liberals after their same legislation, Bill 50, died with prorogation. As many of my colleagues have pointed out during this debate, if this was such an important bill and not simply a way to deflect from the Ornge scandal, then why did the government shut the place down for four months and prorogue the House? Obviously, this bill wasn’t and isn’t that important.

I’m pleased to engage in this debate today. It comes with some apprehension, though, on my part as, quite frankly, it’s beginning to seem like Groundhog Day around here: We have the same member introducing the same legislation that has already been vigorously debated over the past year from which extensive input, from our party’s perspective, has been garnered. Despite our clear and concrete concerns having been brought forward, we are here now again, having the exact same debate about the exact same legislation as if the original debate never ever happened.

None of our observations about the failures of Bill 50 and the failures of this government were ever incorporated into this successor bill, Bill 11; none of them.

So let me use my time today to reiterate what the opposition has been saying time and time again. Maybe this time the Liberals will listen. This legislation as it is, quite honestly, is a useless piece of legislation that is no more than window dressing by the health minister and this government to hide behind and use as a distraction for their mismanagement and failed leadership into yet another spending scandal. It’s ridiculous for the health minister to stand up and pretend that her government didn’t have oversight abilities to intervene at Ornge. It doesn’t even make sense.

The fact of the matter is that both the Independent Health Facilities Act and the original Ornge performance agreement stipulate that the Minister of Health has had, has always had, the ability to send inspectors into Ornge and the ability to take over the board. If the minister had checked with her legal team, she would have been told exactly that. As a former Minister of Health, I can tell you that I used the Independent Health Facilities Act on at least four occasions I can think of offhand to rein in potential problems at agencies. Ornge is no different.

The government, including cabinet, has a lot of powers and can override just about any agreement in the province if they so want. They have that authority.

Also, past testimony from various witnesses in government has confirmed that the Ornge performance agreement stipulates that the ministry could and, in fact, was mandated to provide oversight but failed to do so. Various experts have testified to this in committee.

In an exchange between my colleague Mr. Frank Klees, from Newmarket–Aurora, and the director of the emergency health services branch, Mr. Malcolm Bates, you will see that Mr. Bates agrees that the performance agreement allowed for ministry oversight. Let me read parts of their exchange from Hansard.

Mr. Klees says to Mr. Bates: “Nowhere in that performance agreement that I can see, unless you can point me to it, does it in any way relieve the Ministry of Health, and specifically the emergency health services branch responsible for air ambulance or ambulance services in the province, of its oversight responsibilities. In fact, there are very specific references to reporting that’s required, to oversight responsibilities.”

Mr. Bates’s response: “I agree that the Ministry of Health and the emergency health services branch have and had oversight responsibilities and that oversight responsibility was basically set in line by the Ambulance Act, by the performance agreement and by the transfer-of-payment accountability directive.”

Mr. Speaker, the inadequate oversight of Ornge is also well documented by Auditor General Jim McCarter. In a press release from last March, the auditor says, “The Ontario government has given Ornge more than $700 million since 2006 to provide ambulance service in the province without sufficiently monitoring how well Ornge was doing its job or whether it was following appropriate public sector business practices.”

In fact, the auditor’s report revealed that the Ministry of Health never even requested the information needed to meet the standards they themselves set, when Ornge was created, to monitor its performance. The auditor’s report clearly notes that the red flag warnings about financial irregularities and concerns over patient safety were not taken seriously by the government, and that the Minister of Health, Deb Matthews, knew about the problems, was able to intervene and simply chose not to.

In Ontario, our parliamentary system dictates that cabinet ministers bear the ultimate responsibility for the actions of their ministry. They are responsible for ensuring the services that the ministry pays for are provided effectively and in a way that meet the needs of the public, and in this case the health care system. This clearly was not happening at Ornge. The minister’s refusal to take responsibility for ignoring these repeated warnings goes against hundreds of years of parliamentary convention and our democratic system of government, and really should not be tolerated.

If the minister is not up to the job, it is the government’s responsibility to find someone who is, and that is what should have been done in this case, Mr. Speaker. Instead, as we all know, the health minister is still the health minister, and in fact she was recently promoted to Deputy Premier. The health minister’s failure to act shows her incompetence as a leader. If we can’t trust her to oversee ambulance services, which are a relatively small portion of her multi-billion dollar ministry portfolio, how can we trust her with the rest of it and how can we trust her with this bill?

Ornge was created by this government and was neglected by this government. They’ve never explained to the people of the province why they created Ornge and threw thousands of pilots and paramedics out of work, particularly across northern Ontario with the fixed-wing aspect of the service and the helicopter aspect of the service. Somehow George Smitherman made some deal. There’s something about all this that they’ve never explained why they threw out the old system, which was working perfectly fine, and brought in this new, Liberal system.

Mr. Speaker, I don’t see how Bill 11 will address the fact that the government has never explained themselves or the fact that we should never have gone down this road in the first place. In fact, I fear this will merely help the Liberals further cover up the scandal and future scandals like it. One of the weakest parts of Bill 11 is that it perpetuates the existing structure of the air ambulance service—that’s the Ornge structure—rather than recognizing that it is flawed and acknowledging that it may benefit from ministerial oversight or oversight from some other entity outside of Ornge.

If the government was serious about improving accountability, you’d think this would be at the top of their list, but it doesn’t seem to be the case. In a recent letter we received from the Ombudsman, Mr. André Marin, he urges the government for Ombudsman oversight at Ornge, and I think he makes a good case.

I’d like to read the letter into the record:

“I am writing further to the first reading of Bill 11, the Ambulance Amendment Act (Air Ambulances).

“There is no doubt that any steps to increase the accountability of the air ambulance service is welcomed. Indeed, in the wake of many stories of maladministration horrors that have plagued Ornge, sound public policy to bring proper oversight to this organization is still sorely needed.

“While moving in the right direction, measures such as the establishment of an Ornge patient advocate and Bill 11’s creation of a new bureaucracy of ‘special investigators’ are insufficient to provide much-needed scrutiny, and continue to shield Ornge from Ombudsman oversight. My office remains unable to address any individual or systemic issues involving Ornge.

“The Office of the Ombudsman of Ontario is a unique resource to support the Legislative Assembly in holding government accountable. It is there to allow the provincial Parliament to scrutinize government bodies. I cannot think of a more persuasive case for this than Ornge.

“‘Special investigators,’ under Bill 11, would enjoy authority similar to that of my office when it investigates the more than 500 ministries, agencies, boards, commissions, tribunals and corporations that fall under our jurisdiction. But there is an important difference: The ‘special investigators’ would report to the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care.” They would not report to someone independent of government.

Anyway, he goes on to make a very, very good case, and I think that should be an amendment to the bill. I think we’ve had umpteen speakers, certainly from the opposition benches, read the rest of Mr. Marin’s letter into the record and agree with his sentiments.

Again, the Ornge scandal is one of the great blights in the history of this province. This bill does not in any way fix the system. It’s tinkering. You brought it out even before we had hearings in the original Bill 50, so you didn’t even know, supposedly, what all the problems were. You still don’t. The hearings are still going on, yet you purport—the minister and several Liberals continually get up and tell us that this will fix the system. It won’t. You already had these powers; you failed to use them. You failed to be responsible and accountable.

I mean, I stepped aside for 10 weeks as Minister of Health when one of my staff said something stupid to a reporter. That was called “ministerial responsibility”: You go to the penalty box even if it’s not your fault and you take responsibility not only for your immediate political staff but for the bureaucracy. You people—time after time, whether it’s gas plants, Ornge or eHealth, you just stay in your seats, keep getting your big paycheques; the limousine picks you up every day and brings you home every day. You have no accountability to the people of Ontario. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Mr. Michael Mantha: I was listening attentively to the member from Simcoe–Grey, and many of his views are some of the points that I actually spoke about in my previous notes as well, in the many times that I’ve had the opportunity to get up in regard to this bill. I’m going to try it in a different way and see if there’s a reception to hearing a message.

Premièrement, quand on regarde cette situation, il faut qu’on soit prêt à reconnaître que c’est une erreur qui aurait pu être corrigée ou qui peut être corrigée. Le gouvernement doit prendre l’initiative, eux-mêmes, de vraiment corriger ce problème-là et puis de mettre des procédures en place où le problème ne se représenterait pas.

Une des façons qu’on peut faire ça, c’est de faire certain que l’ombudsman est impliqué dans le futur pour qu’il ait les yeux et qu’il porte l’attention nécessaire à déterminer où le problème s’est présenté et comment le problème s’est présenté, parce que ce n’est pas acceptable aux familles qui ont souvent des questions, en effet, sur des sujets qui se passent à travers d’Ornge qu’ils n’ont pas les réponses nécessaires.

C’est seulement à travers de la chance de passer à travers de l’ombudsman que ces questions-là vont être répondues et puis les personnes de leurs familles vont avoir les réponses nécessaires pour qu’elles puissent adresser leurs propres questions.

Le gouvernement a la chance présentement de corriger un problème et de retourner un niveau de crédibilité au système de santé. Ils devraient prendre avantage de cette situation. Quand on blâme quelqu’un, quand on fait cette action, il faut qu’on réalise qu’il y en a trois autres qui visent vers nous. On doit prendre l’initiative de vraiment implémenter les changements qui sont nécessaires pour faire le bon fonctionnement des actions et puis la législation ici en Ontario. Merci.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Hon. John Gerretsen: Good morning, Speaker. I’m sure the people who are watching in television-land aren’t quite sure right now whether they’re watching a rerun from yesterday’s 9 o’clock performance, the day before, or the day before that, because what has been said in this House on this particular bill has been said at least a hundred times over. We’ve now had 18 hours of debate on the bill.

Interjection.

Hon. John Gerretsen: I allowed your member to speak; nobody heckled him. So please give somebody else an opportunity to say something as well.

There have now been 18 hours of debate on this particular bill, Speaker. I’m sure the people out there in television-land are wondering, have they got nothing else to talk about? There are so many other issues out there. Why don’t we get on with it and send the bill to committee?

In committee there are representatives of all three parties. We’re in a minority Parliament. If there are good suggestions from the opposition or from government members as to how this bill, the oversight bill on Ornge, can be improved, that’s the place to do it. But to keep raising the same arguments here day after day—when they well know that sooner or later this bill is going to be given second reading, and then it will go to committee. There are so many other issues to talk about that we should be dealing with for the welfare of the people of Ontario.

This is a very important bill, so let’s get on with it. Let’s send it to committee, let the committee do its work and let’s bring it back here so that at the end of the day we will have a new Ambulance Act that will have the oversight provisions that are absolutely necessary for the safety of Ontarians—it’s always first about safety—and for the welfare of the people of Ontario. So let’s get on with it. Let’s stop all this nonsense that has been going on here for the last 10 of those 18 hours, anyway. Let’s get on with it and send the bill to committee.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Further debate?

Mr. Randy Pettapiece: Speaker, it’s a pleasure for me to rise and speak on this subject. It’s difficult for me to pick the right adjective to compliment the member from Simcoe–Grey on his enlightening comments. We all know that this is just a bill to deflect the attention away from the Minister of Health; this is what it is. We all know that the Minister of Health and the ministry had the oversight, that the rules were in place, that this really didn’t have to happen and this is just a deflection away from the government’s responsibility, as pointed out by the member from Simcoe–Grey.

We are wasting time here, probably, because we don’t need to be debating this bill. It shouldn’t even have come up. Yet the government is using this tactic to deflect attention away from their incompetence.

I suggest that the member from Simcoe–Grey was right. He was a health minister in his previous years—an exemplary job as a health minister. I’m sure that when his comments are taken into account, we know that he’s speaking from experience and knows what he’s talking about. I would suggest that the health ministry and the health minister should look inward and see what happened and know that she had the ability to oversee Ornge and correct the problem before it even started. So this bill is something that is holding up government business, and probably we should get on to something else with this bill.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): The member for Simcoe–Grey, you have—

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): My apologies; the member for Timiskaming–Cochrane.

Mr. John Vanthof: It’s an honour for me to be able to stand here on behalf of the residents of Timiskaming–Cochrane and once again speak on Bill 11. I’d like to commend the member from Simcoe–Grey. He did bring a unique perspective because he was health minister under another regime, and brings a unique perspective.

I’d like to focus my comments on the comments of the Attorney General saying that we had already done this and this was a waste of time.

One of the reasons we’ve already done this is because the government prorogued and killed this bill. They can have all the reasons they want, but if they really want to make this bill better, they could have taken that opportunity when we debated this before the government prorogued, and someone who drafts these bills for the minister could have said, “You know what? They brought up some good points in that debate, and maybe if we changed it, if we took this opportunity”—this isn’t why they prorogued the government, but they could have taken this opportunity to make this bill better before it went to committee, and then we would have.

For the people at home, that’s how we would run the government. We wouldn’t prorogue. But they prorogued anyway, so make things better. But on this, they haven’t. They’ve proposed exactly the same bill, and then they chastise the people on this side of the House when we try to tell them, “Here are the things you should change.”

And yes, it feels like Groundhog Day because we’ve had to tell them twice. They had the opportunity to change while they prorogued, and they didn’t take that opportunity.

This bill should go to committee. It’s very unfortunate that the government didn’t take their opportunity to make this bill better while they shut the Legislature down.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): The member for Simcoe–Grey, you have two minutes for a response.

Mr. Jim Wilson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to thank and agree with the members for Algoma–Manitoulin, Timiskaming–Cochrane and Perth–Wellington. And Timiskaming–Cochrane—the honourable gentleman makes the perfect argument, exactly. I mean, the government had four months, 100-and-some-odd days, 127 days I think, to change the bill, but you didn’t listen. Stubborn, arrogant—the same old Liberal Party that we saw in the first nine years.

The fact of the matter is, as House leader, I can guarantee you that every one of my caucus is going to take their democratic right, and they’re going to speak on this bill. In fact, they’re going to speak on every bill until you get it right.

You treat this place with disdain by not listening to anybody on this side of the House. You don’t change your ways. Then you get up and have the audacity to lecture us about our exercise of our democratic rights. We’re trying to get you to listen for once. You don’t listen. You don’t take responsibility. You throw what used to be fairly sacred—

Interjection: Parliamentary.

Mr. Jim Wilson: —parliamentary procedure around here, which is to take ministerial responsibility—when the Liberals were in Ottawa, they did the same thing. They just ignore their scandals. You had Gomery inquiries.

Here, we have nobody taking responsibility for buying an election with over a billion dollars in the gas plant scandal. No one is taking responsibility for eHealth. I guess you threw out Mr. Caplan, I suppose. I met him the other day—a fine gentleman who did not deserve to be the scapegoat on that. The rest of you sit here smugly, not taking responsibility, and then we have the Ornge scandal. If you think we’re going to let any of these scandals go, we’re going to keep going and going and going until somebody finally takes some responsibility on your side of the House.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Further debate?

Mrs. Jane McKenna: I’d like to thank the member from Simcoe–Grey, who was also the Minister of Health, for his courage to stand up and take responsibility on what he did as well.

It’s my pleasure to rise today to speak to Bill 11,

An Act to amend the Ambulance Act with respect to air ambulance services. Let me say at the outset that it has been enlightening being here in the House over the last year to get a close-up view of the controversies boiling around Ornge. Watching the minister’s footwork and listening to her wordplay has been especially instructive. To hear her tell it, she was just a patsy, bamboozled by forces beyond her understanding or control, and this from the head of the very ministry that helped to construct the house of cards.

I find it astonishing that when they were constructing their 2005 performance agreement, they couldn’t agree on the matter of performance. The government didn’t think to integrate measures that would ensure that the performance metrics of this agency were tracked at all, never mind on an ongoing basis to ensure that it was always delivering the best possible care. To listen to the Minister of Health tell it, that’s just the way things turned out: unfortunate turn of events but nothing much that she, her ministry or this government could do about it.

If you only had the minister’s talking points to listen to, you might be convinced that the entire Ornge debacle was some kind of a fly-by-night operation that hoodwinked the province. But, of course, there are other accounts.

Speaker, it is extremely hard to look at Bill 11 as anything other than a wag-the-dog reaction to the Auditor General’s scathing indictment of this government agency. It seems like it was created as a tool of deflection before anything else.

To her credit, the minister keeps up a bold front, doesn’t stray from her talking points and always pays tribute to the men and women on the front lines at Ornge. I would naturally like to salute them as well. It’s certainly not their fault that they were set adrift by this government. They went above and beyond, making the best of whatever they were given. I have enormous respect for the professionalism, expertise and composure of Ontario’s first responders and front-liners. They hold our communities together whenever and wherever the fabric of our community is strained, frayed and torn by suffering and tragedy.

I would like to thank the whistle-blowers at Ornge who stood up for patients and Ontarians when the minister would not. Without their disclosures, we would only have learned a fraction of what we know now. The abuses and indulgences might have been carried on without restraint, and this agency could have strayed further into the fog. The pilots, paramedics, engineers, dispatchers and administrators at Ornge should not become collateral damage for the mishaps and misdeeds of their masters.

Part of honouring those individuals, Speaker, is in remembering our own duty to be vigilant and critical when it comes to proposed legislation like Bill 11. Yet despite the central role that whistle-blowers have played in this sad and shocking tale—or perhaps because of that—the bill before us does not seem to attach much value to whistle-blowers. In fact, the legislation arguably reins in whistle-blowers by failing to extend across-the-board protection to all individuals. When you place restrictions on this kind of disclosure, you turn acts of conscience into thought crimes. How shameful is that?

It speaks to a compromised allegiance to transparency and accountability. It suggests—dare I say it?—a certain moral cowardice. Speaker, anything less than comprehensive whistle-blower protection is simply a camouflaged muzzle law.

Ironically, what Bill 11 does best is underline the failures of this government and ministry. They are each uniquely flawed and yet they share one thing in common: They stood idly by, were blind to the red flags and deaf to appeals. There is no reason to believe that amended legislation or Febrezed performance agreements will change those fundamental failures of oversight.

We in the PC caucus have been clear about where responsibility ultimately falls, and we have always appreciated the exceptional level of care, compassion and professionalism that the staff first responders and front-liners at Ornge have brought to every working moment, despite the inefficiencies and perverse bureaucracy they have had to contend with. Factors like these cannot make the job of saving lives any easier, Speaker, and it is hard to imagine what benefit there is in avoiding the steps needed to ensure that performance issues and organizational problems are rooted out at every turn.

When it comes down to it, that is why the government’s stubborn refusal to invest this bill with real measures to ensure accountability is so disappointing. The closest we get to transparency in Bill 11 is when the minister creates a mechanism for funneling compliments into her ear.

Speaker, I would be interested to know how the Ontario Ombudsman’s heart rate charted when he read that section. Maybe his years of exposure to Liberal incompetence have made him resilient. In his letter to the Minister of Health, Ombudsman André Marin writes, “The Office of the Ombudsman of Ontario is a unique resource to support the Legislative Assembly in holding government accountable. It is there to allow the provincial Parliament to scrutinize government bodies. I cannot think of a more persuasive case for this than Ornge.”

Indeed, Speaker, after all that we in this Legislature have been through, I can see no credible reason for keeping this agency beyond the oversight of the Ombudsman. That this new initiative is coming from the Deputy Premier signals to me that the party is not a new government at all but that it is still twisted by the same secretive DNA that characterized the McGuinty years.

Now, as then, we’re seeing this government’s head in the sand, completely out of touch with this critical component of the most resource-intensive ministry of the entire government. They didn’t think to question, couldn’t be bothered to use the tools at their disposal, indulged the worst in their midst and naively hoped for the best—that nobody would find out and that nothing would go terribly wrong.

When we talk about the excesses at Ornge we are not just talking about an unthinkable waste of precious resources and the haphazard management of a critical link in our health care sector. There is also an excess of arrogance, as if anything was possible and nothing would ever suffer consequences. This government had every authority and had the tools needed to wade in this organization and get it sorted. We’ve heard numerous times during this debate that the Minister of Health had the power to intervene at any point to stop the circus, to bring the sideshow to a halt and to restore balance and discipline. The lack of leadership is striking.

There were clear and repeated warnings about Ornge, warnings about a dark whirlpool of finance irregularities, awestruck accounts of sky-high executive salaries and grave details about operational shortcomings that put the lives of staff and patients at risk. All of it was brushed under the carpet with a merry whistle by the highest-ranking members of this government. It’s shameful—shameful.

Where was the leadership years ago when the seeds of this scandal were first scattered on the wind? And where is the leadership from this government now? Is Bill 11 really the best you’ve got? If so, this government has not truly learned the lessons of Ornge. I would have hoped that this party opposite, which went out of its way in the throne speech to try and rebrand itself as a “new government,” would have taken the four months the Legislature was closed and done some soul-searching, gone back through the hours of debate on Bill 50 and come up with revised legislation that was serious and strong.

But they did not, and that speaks volumes of what this government really cares about. Thank you.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Mr. Jonah Schein: As always, I’m honoured to stand up today on behalf of my constituents in Davenport. I do feel a bit of remorse that this is the, I don’t know, the millionth time I’ve stood to speak to this issue. As we’ve said on numerous occasions, this bill is not going to address the lack of accountability in other agencies across the province that need attention. We feel assured that Ornge, from this day on, will be under close scrutiny, but there has been a slow death, I would say, of transparency—well, of accountability—in this province, an infatuation with off-loading responsibility and with deregulation.

So, rather than take any more time up in this House today speaking, I think I would just ask the House to join me in a minute of silence to think about how we can do this—how we can run this province in a better way that is accountable.

I will just stand for a minute and think about that—the province that we could build together.

Thank you, Speaker. I found that helpful.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Thank you. Questions and comments?

Mr. Phil McNeely: We’ve heard a lot of criticism of this bill and the predecessor, Bill 50, I think it was. But having sat on the public accounts committee—and I even did a tour of the headquarters of Ornge yesterday. But this has been going on for some time.

Carole McKeogh, who is the senior lawyer for the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care, had nothing to do with the first agreement, which brought in a fresh look and said, “How do we repair that?” Carole McKeogh was in front of the committee, under oath, twice. She said on April 25, 2012, “I have also been involved in the development of Bill 50”—which is the predecessor of this—“An Act to amend the Ambulance Act with respect to air ambulance services, which received first reading on March 21, 2012.

The proposed legislation, if passed, would provide the province with many of the same powers for intervention in the public interest which currently exist for public hospitals under the Public Hospitals Act”—so are we going to change all those acts that govern hospitals?

“In my view, there is a useful comparison to be made between public hospitals and Ornge. Both hospitals and Ornge are non-profit corporations. They are both charities with volunteer boards. They both provide essential health services to patients and are funded almost entirely by the province.

“However, in the case of public hospitals, the legislative framework includes the power to intervene in the governance of a hospital through the appointment of a hospital supervisor, who can assume all the powers of the board and the corporation. This is viewed as an extraordinary power of intervention which exists to protect the public interest. It is an important safeguard which has been included in the proposed legislation for Ornge.”

This is good legislation. It was prepared by Carole McKeogh. She testified twice that it was the right thing to do. We know that it is the right thing to do. It’s a good piece of legislation. Let’s get it to committee and give Ornge the other part of their ability to move ahead.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Mr. John O’Toole: I want to stand in respect for the member from Burlington, who I think had spent a fair amount of time pointing out in detail the lack of respect, lack of leadership and lack of action.

I think that our side and the earlier speaker, the member from Simcoe–Grey, a former Minister of Health, added content that the viewers today, or those following the transcripts, would need to recognize: that there has been a lack of responsibility and leadership.

Now I should say out of respect for the front-line people at Ornge and the paramedics who were here yesterday that it’s clear that they were ignored and vilified as well. They were all painted by the leadership under Chris Mazza, and all the way down, of taking advantage of taxpayers’ money in this whole scandalous scheme around Ornge.

I want to pay respect for the member from Newmarket–Aurora for the work and leadership that he has done, and to the media, who in fact have shown this to be the scandal that it is.

The member from Burlington—I believe the detailed content of her speech is worth looking up in Hansard online and refreshing the memory of why are we so upset with this waste of taxpayers’ money and, more specifically, health care dollars. It troubles me when I look at seniors unable to get long-term care, unable to get home care, and yet there’s this wasteful spending of millions and millions and millions of dollars on the equipment, the leadership, the governance—it’s simply unacceptable. I would expect that the Minister of Health would read these transcripts and apologize to this Legislature. That’s how strongly I feel about it.

The way it has been trivialized is another example of not taking responsibility for their lack of action.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Mr. John Vanthof: Once again, an honour to be able to stand on behalf of my good people in Timiskaming–Cochrane and make a few comments about those from the member from Burlington.

She spent part of her talk focusing on the Ombudsman. We don’t agree on a lot of things, but I think on that one we agree, and I’d like to give you an example, because it was someone whose family lives in my riding and who was a very early whistle-blower on Ornge. His name was Trevor Kidd. When he came to testify at the committee, everybody was happy that he came and testified. He sat in this House and everyone clapped for him. He tried to warn people for years—for years—and he was vilified. He was sloughed off. The Ornge scandal didn’t come to people’s attention until the media took it.

So now, on the next Ornge—because there will be. No one’s perfect, and this is a big organization. Governments are big organizations and people are people. So the next time, and if this is the model we’re going to use, then someone like Trevor is going to have to find the special investigator or have to convince these people who have been put in there by the ruling party, whoever that may be.

Wouldn’t it have been so much better if people like Trevor could have called the Ombudsman, someone who they felt was impartial? The Ombudsman will get some calls that don’t come to fruition, because that’s the thing about being a whistle-blower. Every time we think you’ve been wronged, it’s not always right, but at least it would be a place where people could call impartially without fear of retribution, and we can’t figure out why the government doesn’t want to go that way.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Thank you. The member from Burlington, you have two minutes for a response.

Mrs. Jane McKenna: Thank you so much, Speaker. I’m up for my last hit here and I’d like to point out a couple of things.

I’d like to say that, being an MPP, we have many mentors. I look at the member from Newmarket–Aurora and the member from Nickel Belt, and what they have done to bring this to fruition has been humbling to me over and over again. It’s an honour to see the two of these people work diligently. The passion they have, that they believe in, is overwhelming to myself. I stand here as a PC to be part of this process with the Newmarket–Aurora member, and I am so grateful that you are part of this team. I would like to say that first.

I would also like to say to the Attorney General that it is our responsibility as the Queen’s loyal opposition to be continuing to do what needs to be done for the Ontario people. I had someone the other day ask me, “Why are you still talking about gas plants and Ornge, and why is this still going on?” I said, “Listen, this is why it’s going on.

We have a responsibility, when we spend $1.8 million more an hour than we take in, and 20% of what we spend is borrowed money, and it’s our third-largest expenditure after health and education, to make sure that every single dollar that we’ve wasted that we could have been putting on the front line to people, because of the government’s reckless mismanagement of money, has put us in a position that these people—there’s no money.”

So how is it that you can patronize and look over at us? I have never been so proud to be part of Tim Hudak’s team, the leader of this opposition, who has a plan and who has the most phenomenal team here that comes together and works as hard as we possibly can—and in this whole House the only one with a plan—to do what is best for this government.

Thank you so much, Speaker.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Thank you. Further debate?

Mr. Jack MacLaren: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I stand in my place to speak to Bill 11. The purpose of this bill is to provide oversight and accountability over the Ornge air ambulance service. I cannot support Bill 11 for three reasons: Bill 11 does not provide complete protection for whistle-blowers, Bill 11 does not allow independent oversight of Ornge by the Ombudsman, and Bill 11 does not change the flawed corporate structure of Ornge. I will come back to my criticisms of the bill after providing some context.

Bill 11 is a road map of what the minister should have done in response to concerns that were raised years ago. The minister has had the power all along to stop the malfeasance at Ornge, so we don’t need Bill 11. The calls for a ministerial investigation into Ornge came first in 2008, five years ago, then in 2010 and again in 2011. In March 2012, a majority of the members of this House voted to form a select committee to investigate serious allegations of misconduct at Ornge. Even though the health minister promised that, “I support the will of this Legislature” and “The will of the Legislature rules supreme,” the select committee on Ornge has never been formed by this government.

Nonetheless, the Standing Committee on Public Accounts has been relentlessly investigating this issue for well over 100 hours now, and has slowly but surely been pulling the story of the Ornge scandal out for its full public airing.

In 2005, the responsibility for Ontario’s air ambulance service was changed forever. It was entrusted to a start-up company headed by an emergency doctor who was a recent MBA graduate from university. This was Ornge under the direction of its founder, Dr. Chris Mazza.

As an aside, Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind everyone that the other founder of this corporation is this current provincial government.

Before 2005, Dr. Mazza worked at Sunnybrook Hospital in Toronto, which happened to be the base hospital for Ontario’s air ambulance service; Mazza was exposed to the air ambulance business. At that time, a few small airlines and one large helicopter company worked on contract for the Ministry of Health. The 25-person team at Sunnybrook called in a plane or a helicopter when required. As part of their contract with the ministry, the companies outfitted their aircraft as air ambulances. Ornge was Mazza’s brainchild to fix Ontario’s air ambulance service. Dr. Mazza had no experience running a corporate operation like this, let alone an operation with a budget of $150 million.

By 2004, Dr. Mazza had sold the McGuinty Liberal government on his plan. Mazza became the president and chief executive officer of Ontario’s new air ambulance service. This Liberal government took a hands-off approach from the beginning. In a couple of years, the government allowed Mazza and his board of directors to change a 25-person operation run out of a provincial hospital facility into a 234-person corporation housed in a $15-million building that the employees called “the crystal palace,” miles away from a hospital. Where the old air ambulance service used contracted airlines, Dr.

Mazza thought it best to purchase 12 custom helicopters from Italy for $144 million and a fleet of 10 single-engine aircraft from Switzerland.

By 2011, Ornge had grown into a not-for-profit corporation with many for-profit subsidiary corporations, employing over 400 people, including several vice-presidents and executives, managers, dispatchers, paramedics, pilots and aviation specialists. It had its own air and land ambulances operated from 12 bases across the province.

The Auditor General’s report of March 2012 regarding Ornge was scathing in its criticism of this Liberal money pit. The Auditor General, Mr. Jim McCarter, said Ornge was, “one of the most difficult auditees we have ever encountered.” He was speaking from nine years of experience and commenting on the lack of co-operation from Mazza and his employees.

The complexity of the corporate structures at Ornge and its subsidiaries are still being untangled by investigators. Deaths that occurred on Ornge’s watch are still being investigated by Ontario’s new chief coroner. This investigation was put on hold last fall when the old chief coroner suddenly became the new CEO of Ornge. We are also still waiting for the results of investigations by the OPP.

Since 2006, over $750 million in public health care dollars have funded this government’s start-up. In 2011, Ornge was $300 million in debt. Non-profit corporations and charities were set up to benefit a number of for-profit corporate entities. Public funds were used to leverage investments in the for-profit companies. The scheme was to generate funding for the Ornge non-profits. It was doomed from the start. One Ornge for-profit subsidiary kept 97% of its profits and only returned 3% to the public purse. Dr. Mazza was enabled by his board of directors, so the culpability is not singular.

Many perks flowed to senior staff members at Ornge as well, although the main beneficiary was Dr. Mazza. In 2005, Mazza’s salary was $284,000. By 2011, his salary had grown to $1.4 million, and grew to $2.6 million by the time he was fired in February 2012.

In the last month at public accounts committee, we have learned that Mazza got the board to purchase life insurance policies for him. The latest policy uncovered was a $10-million policy on Mazza, with the beneficiary being one of Ornge’s for-profit entities. We have learned that Mazza went so far as to design the interiors of the new helicopters, but this led to them being too small for paramedics to perform CPR in flight. We have learned of intravenous tubing incompatible with hospital tubing. We learned of $1 million spent on patient movers for the airplane fleet that are too heavy for the aircraft.

We learned of possible kickback payments to a helicopter manufacturer which is now being investigated over a similar deal with India. We also learned of dispatch problems and of Mazza’s policy of preventing Ornge helicopters from attending a distress call until it was determined that their presence was absolutely necessary. It is clear this government agency was allowed to forget about its core mandate.

Mazza got Ornge to pay for his million-dollar home and fine cars, $150,000 for two custom motorcycles from California, a $40,000 speedboat and his jet-setting lifestyle. He even submitted the interest on his credit card as an expense. Mazza got his girlfriend a job and a free MBA education. Public health care dollars were frittered away like this on the government’s watch.

Lives most certainly have been put at risk because of this minister’s shortcomings. She turned a blind eye until she was forced to look. The people who forced her to look were the whistle-blowers, the Ornge employees who couldn’t hold back the truth any longer and put their livelihoods on the line. In fact, right now there is an Ornge employee suing the company for being fired after she co-operated with the ongoing investigation. We wouldn’t know anything about these problems without these people. Bill 11 fails to provide real protection for employees in the future who would come forth with information that we need as legislators.

The best way to provide for independent oversight and accountability in government service delivery is by allowing the Ombudsman to investigate. The government won’t let him. With Bill 11, the government is trying to get away with only mandating an internal complaint resolution process. This provides neither independent oversight nor real accountability.

Lastly, another problem with this bill is the fact that it leaves in place Ornge’s corporate structure, which was criticized by the Auditor General.

Again, Bill 11 is too little too late. Bill 11 is nothing but a cover-up for this government’s failure to responsibly manage the Ornge air ambulance service. Mr. Speaker, I cannot support this bill. Thank you.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

M me France Gélinas: Not only is the bill not competent at doing what they set out to do, but you have to realize that when it came to Ornge, it’s not that the ministry could not act; it’s that the minister chose not to. All they had to do was to put a Liberal-friendly face at the front of the parade. It didn’t matter what was going on behind. It didn’t matter that money was being squandered, that for-profit companies were being set up with taxpayers’ money. It didn’t matter what was going on; they had a Liberal-friendly face at the front of the parade telling them, “All is good,” and nobody did anything.

It doesn’t matter that the bill gives the minister opportunities to do more. She had opportunities to act, and she refused to do that.

Now they’re asking us to approve a bill that will give the minister all sorts of powers that we have never seen in the health care system before. But if you refuse to act on the power you already have, what’s the point in giving more power? If there had been a Liberal-friendly face at the front of this parade, it doesn’t matter how much she can act; she refused to.

One thing would set that apart, though, as the member has said, and that’s bringing Ombudsman oversight. As those complaints start to come in, an independent third party—the Ombudsman doesn’t care if there’s a Liberal-friendly face at the front of the parade. The Ombudsman only cares if there are people that think they have been wronged. He will use his power to investigate. But the bill does not include Ombudsman oversight.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments.

Hon. Jeff Leal: Let me thank the member from Carleton–Mississippi Mills for making a contribution to the debate this morning on Bill 11.

A couple of things of interest here: Dr. Mazza was originally hired by the then Minister of Health, Mr. Clement, in his role at Sunnybrook Health Sciences hospital. We do know that one Lynne Golding, of course, billed $9 million for doing work for Ornge during a long period of time.

Interjections.

Hon. Jeff Leal: Look, that was the record that was brought before the public accounts committee.

In fact, what we need here—we’ve heard from both sides of the House that they want to look at amendments to bring Ombudsman oversight in. The fact of the matter is this is the kind of very productive work that can be done at the committee level. That will be the opportunity to take Bill 11 and get it to committee. Both parties, the opposition party and the third party, will have a slew of amendments they want to bring to the table. The government inevitably will have some other amendments to make. That’s the kind of process that we need to get in place—on to committee.

Let’s listen to those thoughtful amendments, both from the opposition and from the third party, and incorporate them into an amended Bill 11 and get it back to the House, because we all want the opportunity for increased oversight.

We have made some moves. We’ve done important work: a new board, new CEO.

Let’s get it to committee, and let’s get the amendments in place.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments.

Mrs. Julia Munro: I’m pleased to add a few comments to those which my colleague has already made. There are a couple of things that I think need to be emphasized in this whole process.

The first one is one that I don’t think has received an adequate amount of attention; that is that we had a functioning air ambulance service in this province. It was a system that worked well. It provided the kind of emergency services that were needed, particularly in areas of small populations where you had to get people out quickly. They are collateral damage, by the way, in this conversation about the air ambulance process because they had certainly suffered from the imposition of Ornge.

The other thing that I think is important to keep in mind in this conversation is the absolution of this government from taking any responsibility. The fact that they turned the other way, the fact that the auditor provided a scathing report in the fall of 2011 and the fact that they had been asked questions in the House for several years on this file all add up to a complete absolution from taking any responsibility. What we see is a whole series of people through an internal hierarchy that all turned the other way.

One of the things that is the essence of this bill, in my view, is a demonstration that you can’t legislate morality. If people are going to turn the other way, if they’re going to pass the buck, if they’re going to pretend everything is all right, if they’re going to use everything as a photo op and not as anything of substance, then this bill will be no better than anything else that we have had. It is the measure of the people who are enforcing it—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Thank you. Questions and comments?

Mr. John Vanthof: Once again, I’m standing on behalf of the residents of Timiskaming–Cochrane talking about Bill 11. I think the member from Carleton–Mississippi Mills did a fair job of explaining some of the problems that happened at Ornge, but I’d like to spend a moment and talk about what the member from Nickel Belt said, because what she said is at the essence of this whole problem, and she did a really good job of it. What I heard her say was that the problem here is that tools were available for the government to act and they chose not to. Now what they’re trying to do is make the tools a lot stronger to act.

Again, in other areas, in Ornge or in the other Ornges that are out there, they can still choose not to act because it took them a long time to act or react. At the end of the day, when they reacted, it was because of media pressure. That tells a lot. Their initial reaction was to sweep it under the carpet. That was their initial reaction.

The fact that they are resisting Ombudsman oversight tells me—and I think the member from Nickel Belt did a very good job of explaining this—that their continued reaction is to avoid, to sweep under the carpet. It just makes so much sense. Why should we be here arguing about whether the Ombudsman should be able to look into things or that someone should be able to call the Ombudsman? Why? It makes no sense. That should have just been put in the bill. It just shows that the government continues to avoid and deflect.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): The member for Carleton–Mississippi Mills, you have two minutes for a response.

Mr. Jack MacLaren: It is a bit of a sad thing that we have to spend so much time talking about this problem in this House. We have a second bill to address one problem, which should never have happened. We were prorogued and stopped from doing a thorough investigation into the correction of the problem in the beginning, a problem that never should have happened in the beginning because the responsibility of the government was to oversee and manage this properly and catch it before it got carried away.

We have a manager, Dr. Mazza, who feels he should be paid over $2 million a year and that his girlfriend should be hired and paid as an executive because she was a very good water ski instructor, apparently. Motorcycles, speedboats, high-living styles, new office buildings and massive amounts of money spent, and we have a billion dollars gone.

I want to digress a little bit. Last night I had the privilege to speak to some fine young men at a reception here, the paramedics of Ontario. I spoke to a young man who impressed me by how professional he was, how proud he is of what he does. They are the front-line troops of the ambulance service of Ontario. They want to have legislation written here to create a licensing body to ensure the integrity of the profession and the work they do. It’s just a shame when you think of those good people tarnished by what happens and what this party has done to them. I think it’s a travesty.

We have great people in the front lines and in the middle management of Ornge, and yet we have this terrible management at the top that wasted money and delivered poor service, and a government that is unwilling and unable to face the music that they were irresponsible and just didn’t do the job.

I would like to thank the other members who commented on my talk—from Nickel Belt, from Peterborough, from York–Simcoe and from Timiskaming–Cochrane.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Further debate?

Mr. Steve Clark: It’s a pleasure to join in the debate on Bill 11. I’m sure it’s going to come as no surprise to any of the members that, like my PC colleagues, I’m very disappointed with this bill. I’m disappointed because, leaving aside everything that’s gone wrong at Ornge, this legislation was an opportunity to finally get something right when it comes to—sorry, let me correct that: It was the second time we could have got something right with Ornge; the first time was back before the Premier shuttered this Legislature for four months.

At that time, Bill 11 was known as Bill 50, and that’s why I’m so disappointed that after four months of having an opportunity to take into consideration what the opposition was saying, this government just went right back, didn’t listen to our input and put forward a bill that was exactly where we were before the Legislature prorogued.

That’s my concern: that we had some very insightful and constructive criticism that the minister could have taken, but simply what she’s done is, she’s just changed the numbers of the bill. It’s the same bill. It’s almost like the debate that we had on the previous bill didn’t happen. That’s unfortunate, because I think it sends a message to us in the opposition that the minister wasn’t listening to those very constructive suggestions that we made.

It’s really no surprise, though, I have to say, because a number of bills that this government has put forward are essentially window-dressing bills. It’s pretty shocking that a government that really makes such a big deal about being open for input from the opposition would act with such arrogance and disregard to the other side of the room. Really, what it says to me is that the Premier and her cabinet talk a good game about co-operation, but when it comes into practice, there is none.

What we see here is Bill 11. Again, time after time, we see the fact that this government makes these changes; they just change some numbers and the bill gets put back on. It really shows to me that this whole issue with Ornge is really a damning indictment of this government, and the fact that the cupboard is so bare of ideas that, in terms of this bill, we get leftovers—I think we all saw what was on the government’s agenda; on their menu, so to speak—when they tabled Bill 50. We talked about this bill, but again, the ingredients of this bill are the same.

I do want to, as part of the debate, go into some comments that I hear frequently about our system from my constituents in Leeds–Grenville. Like all Ontarians, the residents that I serve have zero tolerance for government waste. They work hard to earn a living, and they demand that the increasingly large portion of their incomes going to Queen’s Park be treated with respect. But probably more than any other area, what really gets my constituents upset is when they see their health care dollars squandered on scandals like Ornge.

That’s because at the same time as they’re reading these scandals, they see their access to front-line health care services being diminished. Whether it’s home care, waiting times for specialists, dental care for low-income residents and seniors, or hospice service, I have an increasingly large number of calls coming into my office from constituents who are very concerned about the state of health care, not just in Leeds–Grenville, but also in the province as a whole.

When I write to the minister about these concerns, invariably I’m told about the fiscal challenges that the province faces. Certainly, I understand how deep a hole this government has put the people of Ontario into. It’s something that, certainly, our party talks about practically every day in this place, and we urge the government to do something and really change the course that this government is on. My constituents have a very simple question when they’re told there’s no money for health care. They want to know, if funds are so scarce and their access to care is in fact suffering, why have millions of dollars been wasted on Ornge and why has a billion dollars been wasted on eHealth?

If you’re a mom in my riding whose daughter needs an appointment for a neurologist because she’s starting drug treatments for MS, and she’s told that she has to wait 18 months because there’s no money—but if eHealth bureaucrats want to wine and dine someone to the tune of $120,000, that’s no problem. That infuriates those constituents. Or if the former head of Ornge, Dr. Mazza, needs 15 grand for a ski trip to Whistler or 50 grand to have an Orange County Chopper decorate the lobby of the Ornge offices, we can spare no expense, and that’s what infuriates people. It’s disgusting, and they have every right, through their elected representatives here at Queen’s Park, to demand accountability.

But, again, when it comes to Ornge, no one seems to take responsibility over on the government benches. In fact, the Premier has shown she’s ready to move on. Not only has she kept the minister in her portfolio, she’s promoted her to Deputy Premier, and I think that sends the absolute wrong message after we’ve had this type of debate, when Ornge and Ministry of Health employees have clearly articulated that the minister had powers of oversight and chose not to use them. I think it’s tragic.

I do want to take the opportunity, because he’s in the House, to thank our member, the member for Newmarket–Aurora, for really shining a light on what’s happening at Ornge. I think he and other of our representatives on public accounts have done a fabulous job. To you, Mr. Klees, thank you for shining the light on this power.

I also believe that we’ve been very clear on this side when it comes to the powers of oversight. The minister didn’t act, and I think the fact now is that in terms of the Ombudsman, there needs to be a role for the Ombudsman, and I think what I’m hearing is the Wynne government, similar to the McGuinty government, has no interest in providing that level of transparency and accountability that I think we need to see in this bill.

I’ve heard a lot from government members during this debate about the appointment of the new patient advocate at Ornge. I had to laugh when I read the minister’s comments in a recent Toronto Star

article as she desperately tried to explain why she was resisting the call for Ombudsman oversight. I couldn’t believe this. She actually had the audacity to state that an internal patient advocate would ensure that concerns are handled more quickly and expeditiously. The problem with that scenario, Speaker, is that the patient advocate would be reporting to the exact same folks who ignored the alarm bells the last time around. And as the Ombudsman, Mr. Marin, pointed out in the same article, one of the duties of the patient advocate would be to report compliments about Ornge, hardly a role for someone who is supposed to be the watchdog.

I know that despite opposition calls both when it was Bill 50 and now Bill 11, we don’t seem to be able to get the minister’s full attention. Otherwise, anything to do with the concerns about mismanagement and patient safety I think would fall on deaf ears, without that extra oversight, and we would need to have that put into place.

I can’t really sum up the problems with this oversight as envisioned by the minister better than by quoting a letter that Mr. Marin wrote to her: The patient advocate, he wrote, “would not be independent of government. Far from being watchdogs, they would operate on a ministerial dog leash.” If you want to ensure Ornge or eHealth doesn’t happen again, you don’t put the watchdogs on a leash; you don’t do that. I think most people on this side of the House have been advocating that we need to let the watchdogs do their work.

Clearly this government ignored us in this process, whether it be Bill 50 or Bill 11, and I take great offence for some members opposite trying to take away our democratic right to debate legislation.

We as members get elected to debate legislation and to provide comments, and I think that the government is losing sight of that. Bill 11 doesn’t do anything to provide better oversight. Certainly, I’m not going to stand here, as I represent the people of Leeds–Grenville—I’m not supporting this legislation.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): This House stands recessed until 10:30 a.m.

The House recessed from 1015 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Bill Walker: I rise on behalf of Jeff Yurek, MPP for Elgin–Middlesex–London, to recognize the following constituents in the public gallery: Dan Ainsworth, a policeman in St. Thomas, and his children, John, Luke and Owen Ainsworth. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Miss Monique Taylor: It is my great pleasure to introduce Miss Angelica Garcia-Hennings, who is a co-op placement in my office from Cambrian College in the public relations classes. Welcome.

Mr. Peter Shurman: I have great pleasure in introducing Debbie Osske, sitting in the west members’ gallery, a fixture around Queen’s Park for many years, my former executive assistant and now doing great work for CANFAR, the AIDS research foundation.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Introduction of guests? The member from Mississauga–Streetsville. I hope he’s not going to steal my thunder.

Mr. Bob Delaney: Well, no, Speaker. I wouldn’t dare do that, but I’m just very pleased to welcome back, and indeed welcome home, the former member for Glengarry–Prescott–Russell—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): You’re stealing my thunder.

Mr. Bob Delaney: —Jean-Marc Lalonde.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Okay. I’ll deal with the member from Mississauga–Streetsville later.

The member from Simcoe North.

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: Today our page captain is Annie Lloyd from my beautiful riding of Simcoe North, and we’re joined by her parents here today. Jodi, her mom, is a trustee with the Simcoe County District School Board.

M. Grant Crack: Il me fait un grand plaisir de souhaiter la bienvenue à l’ancien député provincial de Glengarry–Prescott–Russell, M. Jean-Marc Lalonde, et son ami Rhéal Filion. Bienvenue.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): That’s another one that’s stealing my thunder.

The member from York–Simcoe.

Mrs. Julia Munro: I’d like to welcome back Louis Vatrt to Queen’s Park. He was a page here last year. Welcome back, Louis.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I may be about to steal your thunder one more time by introducing my very good friend and the great mayor of Ottawa, Jim Watson, former MPP for Ottawa West–Nepean. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

M me France Gélinas: I have visitors from Nickel Belt. They’re just on their way here, but I’ll introduce them as they’re coming. It’s Neil Haskett with his wife, Tabatha and their four children, Clairice, Natalya, Aedan and William. They’re here to support my colleague with the Ombudsman Amendment Act for children’s aid.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): For the sake of brevity and redundancy, I would like, as the Speaker is known to do, to introduce all the former members that have visited us here so that we can get a third standing ovation for Jean-Marc Lalonde, Glengarry–Prescott–Russell, the 37th, 38th and 39th Parliament; and the 39th Parliament, Mr. Jim Watson, MPP for Ottawa–Nepean.

Is there anyone else we can do a standing ovation for? Just let me know.

Interjection: The Legiskaters.

MEMBERS’ HOCKEY GAME

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I do want to point out that a really good event took place last night. The Legiskaters, for which we had representation from all sides, including the press, saw a crushing defeat to the ODA—well, I’ve got to be nice to the dentists. There were no teeth lost last night. The final score was 7-2. So we congratulate the Legiskaters for playing hockey for us last night.

We are on the verge of offering ourselves up as sacrificial lambs to the Quebec team. We’ll see what happens with that one. Anyways, thank you.

It is now time for question period.

ORAL QUESTIONS

TEACHERS’ COLLECTIVE BARGAINING

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: My question is to the Premier. Over the past two weeks, I’ve asked eight questions in this House. I’ve written you a letter asking you to simply verify the cost of the OSSTF deal. I’ve yet to receive any details other than you do acknowledge you’ve moved money around and that you say that there are no new costs. So can you precisely give me today how much of the so-called savings will be used to pay for the OSSTF deal?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Education.

Hon. Liz Sandals: I’m delighted to report that we were able to reach an agreement with OSSTF. It has been ratified by 96% of their local presidents. It’s currently in the process of being ratified or at least voted on by individual members, and we very much respect that process of working confidentially with our members, or at least our union members.

We’re now in discussions with the elementary teachers’ federation and are hoping that we will have similar results in terms of being able to conclude an agreement with them. But what I can assure you is that there has been no additional money put on the table.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

We’ve asked precisely for the details on how much of their so-called savings will go toward this OSSTF deal, not to mention where it goes across the province, so I’ll ask you one more time, and I’ll be even a little bit more specific. How much of the savings that you’re talking about are going to go to the extended mat leave?

Hon. Liz Sandals: What we—

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: Are you against mat leave?

Hon. Liz Sandals: Apparently.

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: Apparently, they’re against mat leave.

Hon. Liz Sandals: Apparently, they’re against mat leave and also sorting out sick leave details.

But what I can report to you is that the savings that were reported in January were $1.8 billion. That is made up of about a quarter of a billion dollars in the fiscal year that just ended a few weeks ago. It’s made up of over half a billion dollars in savings for the fiscal year that we are just beginning on April 1. It includes $1.1 billion in long-term liability savings related to ending retirement gratuities and also the sick leave banking. That adds up to a total of $1.8 billion.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: They have a chronic problem with truth-telling on the other side, Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member will withdraw.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Withdrawn, Speaker.

We’re going into a budget in, hopefully, less than a month. They’ve broken that promise of course to have it done by April 1. But they refuse to tell the chamber and the public how much of their so-called savings are going to go to the OSSTF deal and how much of those projected savings, or so-called cost-saving measures, are going to go toward one of the components in terms of mat leave. You can’t continue to stand in this House with any credibility when all you want to get out of a deal with the OSSTF are some brand new friends.

The public is asking where this money is coming from. If you have $1.8 billion in savings, then why didn’t it did go toward servicing the debt and the deficit? If you have $1.8 billion in savings, why doesn’t it go to students in the classroom? I don’t believe for one minute you have $1.8 billion in savings, and I want to know how much this deal—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Minister.

Hon. Liz Sandals: All I can say is, we had $1.8 billion in savings in January, and we’ve got $1.8 billion in savings in April. What part of that is unclear? What I can also tell you is that $1.1 billion of those savings went to pay down the deficit, which I think is what she’s asking for.

But do you know what else we have? We have peace and stability returning to our classrooms. We have extracurricular activities returning to our schools. I understand it is snowing out there today, but were it not for the snow, we have soccer practices returning. We have all sorts of great activities taking place in our schools that we did not have a couple of months ago, and that’s the difference, the students—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. New question.

PAN AM GAMES

Mr. Rod Jackson: My question is to the minister responsible for the Pan Am Games. As your ministry continues to stall on providing an up-to-date detailed budget on the Pan Am Games, let’s review what we know to date, Minister.

The organizing committee has grown tenfold, and 23% of them have made the sunshine list, costing Ontarians more than $30 million in salaries by 2015, not including the bonuses for staying on until the end of the games. Then, you duplicated the bureaucracy by establishing a redundant, cloak-and-dagger Pan Am secretariat, another team of 62 bureaucrats feeding at the trough.

Minister, if you have a team of 140 people already organizing the games, what justification can you possibly have for adding a redundant bureaucracy of 62 more bureaucrats?

Hon. Michael Chan: Thank you for the question from the honourable member. Our government is committed to supporting the Pan/Parapan American Games, and we are proud that, come 2015, Ontarians will have an opportunity to experience the games.

The salary structure of employees is determined by Toronto 2015. The compensation structure used by TO2015 has been in line with comparable multi-sport games across the world, including the Vancouver Olympics, the Pan Am Games, the Commonwealth Games or Winter games or Summer games of the Olympics. Other jurisdictions have not taken action to make their publicly paid positions open, but unlike other provinces or nations, our government is ensuring that these games will be the most transparent games hosted to date.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Rod Jackson: Clearly, this is a minister on the run. You went to great lengths to hide the Pan Am secretariat from the public, demonstrating that even he can’t justify the bureaucratic duplication.

In 2011, I asked about the organization of all Pan Am bureaucracies through the order paper. I was directed to various memorandums of understanding, which apparently may or may not exist, depending on the day. Then, in 2012, I FOIed your memorandum of understanding, but the cumulative cost of the memorandum of understanding was $3,000—not so free, Minister.

Recently, the sunshine list revealed the secretariat staff embedded across no less than three different ministries, rendering them unsearchable without knowing their names, but today the secret secretariat isn’t a secret anymore.

Minister, you have serious issues with waste and transparency. Why were you hiding the secretariat, and is it too much to ask to get the real Pan Am salaries?

Hon. Michael Chan: I’m disappointed. I’m truly disappointed by the negative tone of the honourable member.

It’s not good to talk down the Parapan and Pan American Games. It’s not good to talk down the people of Ontario. It’s not good to talk down the people of Canada. It’s not good to talk down the athletes of the US. It’s not good to talk down the people of Argentina. It’s not good to talk down the people from Brazil. It’s not good to talk down the people from Grenada. It’s not good to talk down the people from Panama. Speaker, it’s not good to talk down the people from Mexico.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. Rod Jackson: Minister, let me make one thing clear: I don’t think anybody in this House sits here and talks down to anybody except for you guys, talking down to the people of Ontario, not giving them the right numbers on the Pan Am budget.

Thirty per cent of the secretariat made the sunshine list, costing an additional $2.8 million in duplication of management salaries. But it isn’t clear if the salaries are coming out of the Pan Am budget or if they’re coming from another Pan Am add-on like the billion-dollar air-rail link or the billion-dollar athletes’ village.

Pan Am isn’t going to cost us $1.4 billion, is it, Minister? It’s on track to being the next multi-billion-dollar boondoggle after Ornge, eHealth and the gas plants. We need more integrity from this government for the hard-working families of Ontario who are financing the games and deserve the truth about its costs.

Minister, are the secret secretariat salaries included in the Pan Am budget, or are they just going to cost—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated. Be seated.

Minister?

Hon. Michael Chan: Speaker, please allow me to share a few—

Interjections.

Hon. Michael Chan: —the people who talk up the people of Pan Am—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): No, no, no. Let’s not do that. And I will jump on that. Once we get quiet, stay that way.

Minister?

Hon. Michael Chan: Speaker, the people who talk up the Pan and Parapan games—

Interjection.

Hon. Michael Chan: —let me share a few with you.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member from Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound, second time for the member.

Hon. Michael Chan: James Moore, Minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages: “We are certain that the 2015 games will indeed be a success for Torontonians and all Canadians.”

How about this one? Joe Oliver, Minister of Natural Resources: “Our government is making a significant investment in the 2015 Pan American and Parapan American Games, with facilities that will benefit Canadians—”

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock.

While that will be considered the finish of your answer, the member has to talk to his caucus members who are talking while you’re trying to answer.

I’m asking the Minister of the Environment and the Attorney General to come to order. I did speak to the member from Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound, but he was too engaged and he didn’t even hear me: second time.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Simcoe North just did not help that situation at all.

New question.

CANCER TREATMENT

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: My question is to the Premier. Over the last few days, my office has been speaking with patients and their loved ones who still have unanswered questions about the chemotherapy treatment.

Can the Premier assure people in London and across Ontario that hospitals have quality assurance measures in place to test drugs and assure that they are receiving the correct treatment?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: To the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Thank you to the member for this question. What I can tell you, Speaker, is that many steps have been taken over the past few days to assure the people of this province that they are receiving the highest quality care.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member for Lambton-Kent, come to order. To make sure you heard it, again, member for Lambton-Kent, come to order.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: On the specific issue that the member opposite has raised, Cancer Care Ontario took the step of reaching out to all 77 hospitals in this province that deliver chemotherapy to ask those hospitals to check to ensure that this overfill issue was limited to the cases that had been identified. Of the 77 hospitals in this province that do perform chemotherapy, 69 of them have responded, and there are no other issues that have been raised.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: Speaker, this week I spoke with Kristine Allison, a woman who lost her fiancé to cancer last year.

She wants some answers about the treatment Steve received. When she asked London Health Sciences, they told her they do not test chemotherapy drugs they receive from private suppliers. We followed up with the hospital and they won’t say whether the policy has changed.

Premier, do you know whether the hospitals now have measures in place to assure that patients like Kristine’s fiancé are receiving the treatment they are supposed to?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: The member opposite speaks of one of the almost 1,000 patients in this province who have received very unsettling news. Those patients are all meeting with their oncologists to determine what impact this might have had and what change to their course of care, if any, ought to be implemented. It’s very important that everyone who has been affected does have that meeting with their oncologist.

We know that those meetings are happening, that group meetings are happening and that people are getting the information they need at the individual level, but this does raise questions about the system. That’s why we have pulled together all of the partners in our cancer care delivery system, importantly including Health Canada, to ensure that we can learn any lessons that need to be learned and assure patients—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: Speaker, when I spoke to Kristine—she is heartbroken. Listening to her—the fact that she’s not receiving answers is really distressing. People don’t have a lot of trust in this health care system right now.

I want to ask the Premier again: Our public health care system is our most valuable resource. No one should have to live with the question that Kristine is wrestling with. People have a right to assume that they are receiving the best possible treatment. The hospital assumes that the government is providing oversight; the government isn’t providing that oversight at all.

Patients in London and across Ontario want to know: Can the Premier tell us that quality assurance measures are now in place to protect our patients?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I can assure the member opposite that all of the people and the bodies responsible for oversight are working very hard to get answers to those questions. Health Canada has acknowledged its role and is now engaged in being part of the solution. The College of Pharmacists acknowledges the gap and has offered to fill that gap as we move forward to ensure that all of our patients are getting appropriate care.

Dr. Jake Thiessen, an eminent pharmacist, has agreed to take on the responsibility of looking at broader system issues. We must always learn. If there are lessons to be learned, we must learn those lessons and we must fix those problems.

CANCER TREATMENT

M me France Gélinas: Ma question est pour la première ministre. Yesterday, her Minister of Health was unable to answer who should be responsible for oversight of the prepackaged drugs that were brought into our hospitals. We now know that this process of outsourcing of drug preparation has been happening for five years. It would seem that five years is a long time and that no one has been in charge of quality control or regulation.

I would like to know, will the Premier come clean and admit to Ontarians that five years is a long time for her Ministry of Health to fail in their fundamental responsibility of oversight? Five years is a long time to be asleep at the wheel.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I know the Minister of Health will want to answer on the supplementary, but I want to just be clear that a gap has been identified. It is unacceptable to me, it is unacceptable to our government and it is unacceptable to everyone in this Legislature that such a gap should exist, that this should have happened and that people should have been put at risk. It should never have happened. We acknowledge that.

That is why we’ve taken action immediately, as soon as we realized, as soon as we found out, as soon as the Ministry of Health knew that there was a gap. We’ve put in place the experts. We’ve put in place an interim solution which is that the College of Pharmacists have agreed to play this role. But it shouldn’t have happened. We acknowledge that and we need to learn and rectify the situation.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

M me France Gélinas: What we are seeing in Ontario is a terrifying pattern. In order to save money, a hospital decides to outsource a vital program, a vital service, to the private sector. But it never occurs to this government that checks and balances should be in place to ensure that quality is maintained.

Ontarians are still grappling with corporate excesses at Ornge, at eHealth, and it seems to be becoming a familiar story: A for-profit private company profits while quality of care to the people of Ontario suffers.

Why should patients and why should Ontarians believe that this government will finally do their job?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Health and Long-Term Care.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: As the member opposite knows, we have appointed Dr. Jake Thiessen to really review what happened in this situation so that we cannot only address the issues raised in this particular situation but that we look at the whole supply chain of our cancer drugs to ensure that all of the right checks and balances are in place. I think it is important that in our health care system—and the member opposite is part of our health care system; she understands this. Every health care system is continually working to improve quality.

When an issue arises, it is incumbent upon all of us to identify the problem, fix the problem, look and make sure that there is nothing else in the system that must be fixed. That work is now well under way. And so we will continue that work. It is an important responsibility and one I take very seriously.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

M me France Gélinas: Well, the review that the minister talks about is only looking at what has already gone wrong. But the more we learn, the more questions we have. If it happens to chemotherapy drugs, what assurance do Ontario patients have that it has not already happened to other pre-packaged, outsourced drugs in other fields of medicine?

Speaker, Ontarians have lost faith in their government’s basic ability to provide oversight, to oversee our health care system so it is safe for us to trust. They want the assurance that only an independent third party can give them. They want the assurance that if they complain to the Ombudsman, this government will grant the Ombudsman oversight of our hospital system.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I want to make it very, very clear that we demand the highest quality regardless of who is supplying that product. I don’t care whether something is done in one setting; or whether it’s being done in a hospital setting, we demand the highest quality of care. Quality will never be sacrificed. It is essential that quality is maintained or even enhanced regardless of the setting.

I also want to make it very clear that Dr. Thiessen is looking forward. He does need to understand what happened here, but then he must look forward to make sure that any lessons that can be learned are in fact learned and those recommendations are implemented.

This happens in our health care system all the time and it should happen all the time. What’s important is that when there is a problem, we acknowledge it. Nobody’s hiding behind this, Speaker. We’re going to understand what happened—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

New question.

POWER PLANTS

Mr. Victor Fedeli: My question this morning for the Premier. We want to recap what we’ve learned so far about your gas plant scandal. We’ve had senior Liberal insiders—these are men and women, some who are pulling down as much as $367,000 a year—come and testify. We’ve heard from them and we’ve heard from experts who put the cost at close to $1 billion doing it the way the Liberal government wanted it. Yet no two people have been able to come up with the same number. That in itself implies there are more documents you haven’t produced which contain these answers.

Will you settle this, Premier? Will you tell us what you knew about Project Vapour, Project Vapour-lock, and will you tell us how much your gas plant scandal is costing Ontarians and who ordered the documents to be withheld?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Government House leader.

Hon. John Milloy: I understand there are two parts to his question. One has to do with the question of cost. I’d like to remind the honourable member that we have asked the Auditor General to look into both the Oakville and Mississauga plants. His first report, as members are aware, will be coming out early next week, and my understanding is that the committee will have an opportunity to examine the report and, should they wish, call forward the Auditor General.

The second question, I believe, was who denied access to all the documents in the government on the gas plant? The answer to that, Mr. Speaker, is very simple: The honourable member did, with all his colleagues. When we put forward a motion in front of the committee to produce a government-wide search, much broader than had ever been asked for, he and all his colleagues—I saw it on television—raised their hands and voted against it.

At the end of the day, all parties in this Legislature opposed both these gas plants, and we followed through with that—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: This answer is really like being at the committee, where we aren’t getting answers, either.

Premier, on Monday, the Auditor General will report to this House on the cost of your Liberal seat-saver program in Mississauga. Now, we know the only reason your committee agreed to the auditor looking into Mississauga is because the bulk of the costs of this entire scandal are really buried in the Oakville plant. We’ll get to those later, but I thought we’d give you one last chance, an eleventh-hour confession on Mississauga. What did you know about Project Vapour, Project Vapour-lock, and will you take the opportunity to stand up now and tell Ontarians what you knew to be the cost of the Mississauga cancellation and who ordered the documents to be withheld?

Hon. John Milloy: If I can be bold enough to speak on behalf of the Premier, I think one thing she did know is that the Conservative Party opposed both those plants.

Let me talk a little bit about the justice policy committee this week. We had Frank Clegg, chairman of Citizens for Clean Air, a group that was involved in opposing the gas plant. This is what he had to say on April 9: “We met with all the parties and all the candidates and were given commitments by every candidate in the Oakville area that they would support cancelling the plant…. Well, I know certainly Ted Chudleigh, who was the candidate MPP from north of Oakville, was very active in his support of cancelling the plant.

During the plant battle—I’ll use that word—PCs did not have a confirmed nominee but we met with two or three potential candidates, and each of them had said that they would support that.”

Mr. Speaker, as I said, a promise they made; a promise we kept.

CASINOS

Mr. Michael Prue: My question is to the Premier. The flip-flopping on revenue-sharing for Toronto on a casino deal continues every day. Today, the Premier is quoted in the Toronto Star as stating, “Casino revenue could stretch to tens of millions of dollars—maybe hundreds of millions.”

Will the Premier let the people of Toronto know what the revenue-sharing agreement will be, or does she have to change it every day?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: The context of that question was that the reporter was asking me whether a casino could generate enough revenue to pay for the transit that’s needed. What I said was that my understanding was that the most that casino revenue could generate for the GTHA or for Toronto would be in the hundreds of millions.

I don’t know what that number is, Mr. Speaker, but my point was—and I would love to hear from the member opposite on this—that we don’t have the revenue stream we need to build transit in the GTHA. We need a dedicated revenue stream. Casino revenue is not going to be adequate to that.

I hope the member opposite is going to support us as we look for that revenue stream and deal with the tools that Metrolinx is going to bring forward, because his constituents need transit built in the GTHA as much as the rest of us.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Michael Prue: The flip-flopping continues even in this Legislature.

Premier, other cities with casinos are only getting about 5% of revenues. That doesn’t even come close to the tens of millions or hundreds of millions of dollars that Toronto, and now the Premier, is indicating might be available.

Will the Premier finally come clean with Ontarians on revenue-sharing formulas for the casinos? Tell them what it is now. Tell them what it is today, so that Toronto and other municipalities can decide.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Well, I don’t know what the revenue is going to be, because I don’t know where the casinos are going to be, I don’t know what the deals are going to be. And the formula—as the member opposite knows, I’ve said to the OLG that the formula has to be the same across the province, that there will be no special deals.

I don’t know what the numbers are going to be, but in reference to the quote, what I do know is that there is no casino that is going to generate enough revenue to build the transit that’s needed in the GTHA to keep people and goods moving. That’s the point I was making. I really hope that the NDP is going to join with us in our advancement of the need to build transit in the GTHA. That’s a cause that I hope they will be able to get behind.

INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY

Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn: I’ve got a question today for the Minister of Research and Innovation. The government committed to continuing to build an innovation-driven economy. It creates jobs, it’s going to support strong economic growth, it finds important research-based solutions and it’s going to create some new products. Our success in the global economy depends not only on that, but on our ability to build on strengths and to innovate. Information and communication technology is a key area that drives innovation; it generates a large and steadily increasing share of our employment, international trade and gross domestic product.

Speaker, through you to the Minister of Research and Innovation, what is this government specifically doing to support the information and communication technology in Ontario?

Hon. Reza Moridi: Thank you, member from Oakville, for that question. Technology is changing how we do business, how we share information and how we communicate. Our government recognizes that supporting the information and communication technology sector fuels changes across all sectors. To date, my ministry has invested about $400 million in communication and information technology and digital media.

Ontario has so much to offer. Ontario is home, for example, to cutting-edge research institutions, a highly skilled and educated workforce and a favourable corporate tax environment. All of this helps us to attract technology initiatives to Ontario, such as the IBM Research and Development Centre. Ontario will remain on the cutting edge of research and development in the world.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn: Thanks to the minister for his first answer. Research and development are critical to innovation. They help this province remain competitive in a global economy. IBM, specifically, is a leading company that’s doing very innovative work in this province. A number of my constituents in Oakville and around the GTA are employed by this world-class company.

While it’s great to hear that our government is making investments that are helping to attract global companies that do important research and development, like IBM, Speaker, through you back to the Minister of Research and Innovation: Would he let us know specifically more about the IBM Research and Development Centre and the specific projects that they are working on today.

Hon. Reza Moridi: I thank, again, the member from Oakville for this question. Yesterday, I had the opportunity to celebrate the one-year anniversary of the IBM Research and Development Centre here in Toronto. With our government’s investment of $15 million and our federal government’s investment of $20 million, along with the $175-million investment from IBM Canada itself—with $210 million of investments, IBM Canada, with the assistance of several leading universities in Ontario, have created a world-class research centre which is called the Research and Development Centre.

This centre, using state-of-the-art computer infrastructure, is focusing on research solutions to health care, water management and energy management. In addition to that, they have created 200 new highly paid and highly skilled jobs here in Ontario.

ARBITRATION

Mr. Steve Clark: My question is for the Premier. This afternoon, the House will debate the Public Sector Capacity to Pay Act, 2013. This comprehensive plan to fix Ontario’s broken arbitration system was introduced by our House leader, Jim Wilson, after extensive consultation. His hard work has earned endorsements from the Association of Municipalities of Ontario, the Ontario Association of Police Services Boards, the eastern Ontario mayors and many, many other municipal leaders. I’d like to welcome again the mayor of Ottawa here today.

Premier, we’ve done the work for you. We’ve had those respectful conversations that you keep talking about. What’s finally missing to give municipalities and public sector employers what they want is your support. Premier, will you stand up for comprehensive arbitration reform and vote for our bill today?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I certainly wish that last year, when we had provisions in our budget bill, that this conciliatory tone had been coming from the other side. We thought the changes that we had put in the budget bill, the changes that we made to the interest-based arbitration system—we were sure that the Progressive Conservatives would be supporting those changes, because we knew that they wanted to make sure that there was a fair, transparent system. We put changes in place, and to our surprise, they voted against those changes. I have no idea why—

Interjection.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: We’re talking about today, but I’m talking about the opportunity that we had a year ago.

Mr. John Yakabuski: The new government. The new government. New.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. The member from Renfrew has deserved my attention.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Aw, he deserves everyone’s attention.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): And the member from Nepean–Carleton now deserves my attention.

I just want to make a point about the debate. When it goes between people, it becomes a problem. So the idea and the tradition of this place is to direct your question and direct your answer to the Speaker—as a reminder.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: It would have been terrific if the Conservatives last year had responded to the changes that we put in the budget bill, the changes to interest-based arbitration. I really wish that they had supported us at that time.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Steve Clark: Premier, I can’t believe your response. We’re a few hours away from voting to solve a problem municipalities have been demanding for years, and she’s giving me year-old talking points from Dalton McGuinty.

Premier, since you’re so stuck in the past, I’m going to give you a couple of quotes from what people are saying in the present about this bill.

The Windsor Star editorial yesterday closed with: “The Ability to Pay Act is sensible. It must be passed.”

On the same day, the Ottawa Sun editorial read: “This bill should be supported by all parties. Stop” the madness.

Again, I’m going to ask you—you’re a former Minister of Municipal Affairs—will you keep your commitment to municipalities and vote for this bill this afternoon?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: To the Minister of Labour.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I appreciate the supplementary as well. Our government agrees that reforms are needed, and we are committed to developing an arbitration system that works, is fair for all parties and is constitutional.

Facts are always important in a debate like this. The fact is that this government is a strong supporter of municipalities. In fact, it’s our government which has been uploading billions of dollars from municipalities, which the party opposite downloaded. In fact, it was the mayor of Ottawa, then-Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, who inked that very important agreement on behalf of this government, and we thank him for that.

That uploading is helping ensure that services that families rely on, like fire and police, are available for them. My advice to the party opposite: Read the budget before deciding whether you’re going to vote against it or not.

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

Ms. Catherine Fife: My question is for the Minister of Economic Development. Yesterday in this House, the Minister of Economic Development claimed that the Southwestern Ontario Development Fund is an important part of the government’s plan to create jobs. It’s been almost a year now since the fund has been created. The legislation establishing the fund requires a board of directors before this fund gets up and running, but no board has yet been established.

Why is this government turning its back on a region with a desperate need for new, good-paying jobs by dragging its feet on getting the fund up and running?

Hon. Eric Hoskins: I know the member opposite, as she referred to the Southwestern Ontario Development Fund, appreciates the tremendous potential and impact that fund is going to have. It was proclaimed, I think, in October of last year.

We have begun to fund important projects in southwestern Ontario. I have no doubt, in fact, that we’re going to see the same success that we saw in eastern Ontario over the past years, where I think we have created literally thousands of jobs through that program, leveraging on average about 10 to 1 the investment from the private sector through the funds we get from the government.

I look forward to the supplementary to speak to this more.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Catherine Fife: The potential of the fund will not be realized if you don’t have a board to actually get the fund up and running.

The Ontario NDP believes we need to foster job creation in southwestern Ontario, help that was promised by this government a year ago. Jobs are being lost as I stand here today. Just last week, we learned about another 350 families who will be out of work, this time in Fergus at the A.O. Smith plant. In Windsor, the unemployment rate stands at an unacceptable 9%, and in the London area, 5,000 good-paying manufacturing jobs were lost in this past year alone.

Why is this government stalling on establishing a board of directors for the southwestern development fund and depriving this hard-hit region of good-paying jobs?

Hon. Eric Hoskins: Thank you for that supplementary. Of course, our priority is to make sure the funds begin to flow. Unfortunately, there was a significant delay last year, because of the official opposition’s delay of the program, in actually rolling out these programs. So we’re going ahead. We’re working towards forming that board. It’s an important aspect of the program and making sure that the funds respond in an appropriate fashion.

I want to say that I think the member would agree, particularly given the circumstances and the stresses that are being faced by many of our businesses and employees around the province, in southwestern Ontario, the priority needs to be to make sure that those funds flow.

We had some delays because it took a long time actually for this Legislature, because of the opposition, to pass the funds in the first place. We’re working. We’re taking the steps in a responsible way to make sure that board is up and running while we continue to flow the funds.

CONSUMER PROTECTION

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: My question is to the Minister of Consumer Services. One of the frequent complaints I hear from my constituents on consumer issues is the whole problem of door-to-door sales. In my own riding, I’ve had to get involved with residents on everything from the aggressive nature of some salespeople to misleading information. I am personally frustrated and saddened when I hear about how seniors and newcomers fall prey to misleading, aggressive, high-pressure sales tactics employed by certain door-to-door salespeople.

Of all the door-to-door sales, the most complaints I hear of are those to do with water heater rentals. Minister, what action will you be taking to address these concerns raised about door-to-door sales, not just by my constituents but by all Ontarians?

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: If I may, I’d like to wish the honourable member from Scarborough–Rouge River a very happy belated birthday. I understand it was his birthday yesterday.

It’s true that door-to-door sales are near the top of the list of complaints my ministry receives. I’m sure members have heard this issue from their own constituents—members from all parts of the House. In fact, an Angus Reid survey found that 57% of homeowners felt pressured into making a purchase, signing a contract, when approached at their door, with 35% of them regretting that decision.

The member is correct to say that of all door-to-door sales, water heater rentals are the most complained about by consumers: 3,200 complaints and inquiries in my ministry last year. That’s a 30% increase over the last year. In fact, water heater contracts continue to rank number two in the complaints.

That’s why I was happy to announce earlier today that the new Ontario government is looking to introduce legislation to increase consumer protection against aggressive door-to-door sales practices.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: Thank you, Minister, for that answer. I’m happy to hear of the action the government will be taking in response to the rising demand for action on door-to-door sales. I’m especially pleased to hear that water heater rental contracts will be the specific focus of this particular legislation.

Many of these contracts present consumers with complicated, onerous and hard-to-understand terms. Many consumers, especially newcomers and seniors, are vulnerable and are taken advantage of by these salespeople. Installing water heaters also represents a large risk to consumers because of the high cost involved in undoing the work if they change their minds after signing the contract, making the current 10-day cooling off period ineffective.

Minister, can you please explain how this new legislation will address these concerns?

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: The member is absolutely correct in pointing out that consumers do indeed face high risks in undoing the work if they sign contracts. Consumers currently only have 10 days to change their minds after signing such a contract, and sometimes a company installs a new appliance in that period. That’s why any potential legislation here, when introduced, would allow up to 20 days to cancel the agreement after entering into a door-to-door water heater rental contract. We’re doubling the cooling-off period to 20 days, providing extra time for consumers. We also want to protect and support vulnerable consumers.

We’ll also require plain language in any contracts and we’ll require the companies to confirm sales by making scripted and recorded telephone calls to the customer after the contract is signed. There are other provisions that require the supplier to pay cancellation fees if the rules are not observed.

Speaker, this is about protecting consumers in Ontario. It’s not about going after reputable firms, but we are going to take an aggressive stance on these aggressive businesses and unfair practices in the marketplace.

ENERGY POLICIES

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: My question today is for the Premier. Don Drummond, the Auditor General, the Grey-Bruce medical officer of health and even you have said the green act has been implemented wrong. Now today the Fraser Institute has released a scathing report which says you and your government are way off track with green energy.

The Minister of Labour just said that facts are important. Premier, the report said that Ontario now has the highest energy rate in North America, with increases of 40% to 50% forecasted. Your green energy scheme is a job killer.

Premier, the green energy facts are stacking up against you, so next week will you support my Bill 39 ensuring affordable energy, which will put an end to the unaffordable—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I had a very interesting meeting, Mr. Speaker, a few days ago with folks from the health care community, particularly those who work with children and people with respiratory conditions. I think it would be a really good conversation for the member opposite to have with the asthma society, with the lung association, because clean air is such an important part of what people expect. As someone said to me in that meeting, you can choose what you eat, you can choose the water that you drink, to a certain extent; you can’t choose the air that you breathe. We all have to breathe the air.

The Green Energy Act has allowed us to clean up the air we breathe. It has helped us give a generation—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Dufferin–Caledon, come to order and take your seat, too.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: —the opportunity to breathe cleaner air because we’re shutting down the coal-fired plants, Mr. Speaker.

I know that the Fraser Institute report talked about putting scrubbers on coal plants. That doesn’t deal with the CO 2 emissions, and so—

Interjection: Shameful.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I find it shameful that the person that asked the question wasn’t listening to the answer.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): And I don’t need response or rebuttal. It’s my gentle way of trying to say stop.

Supplementary? The member from Chatham–Kent–Essex.

Mr. Rick Nicholls: Back to the Premier: Families and businesses will not accept your status quo. The Fraser Institute report today said that the manufacturing sector has been the hardest hit by your green energy scheme as employment has fallen 50% but costs went up 29%. The report also said that at the rate your government is going, Ontario will have 10 times the amount of wind turbines we already have installed.

Premier, I can assure you that the residents of Chatham–Kent–Essex do not want 10 times more wind turbines, and neither do the people of Huron–Bruce, Dufferin–Caledon, Simcoe–Grey, Haldimand–Norfolk, Nepean–Carleton, Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry, Lambton–Kent–Middlesex and many others.

Premier, when will your government face the music, face the people of rural Ontario and admit that your green energy fiasco is all wrong?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I’ve met many people in rural Ontario who are concerned about the issue that the member opposite raises in terms of wind energy. I’ve been very clear that we need a much better process in terms of community engagement on the placement of these pieces of infrastructure.

But, Mr. Speaker, the benefits of closing down the coal-fired plants, the benefits to the air, the benefits to cleaning up the pollution in our atmosphere, are just immeasurable. I don’t know if the Fraser Institute report talks about the $4.4 billion in avoided health and environmental costs, but again, I say to the member opposite, I really believe it would be instructive if he had a conversation with some of the people who deal with people who have respiratory conditions, parents of children with asthma, and ask them if they think that it’s worth the cost to shut down those plants and make sure our air is clean.

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION

Mr. Jonah Schein: My question is to the Minister of the Environment. This week, the Minister of Energy finally acknowledged that the Enbridge proposal to pump tar sands across the GTHA is a “significant” and “serious issue” and that it raises “environmental concerns.” He said the government will intervene at the National Energy Board hearings on Line 9, but the National Energy Board has created unnecessary barriers that will restrict public participation.

Will the minister therefore agree to launch a provincial environmental assessment of the Line 9 reversal to ensure full public participation and the protection of Ontario’s drinking water and watersheds?

Hon. James J. Bradley: We understand the National Energy Board approved the Enbridge 9A reversal to transport crude oil from western Canada to eastern Ontario. We have received some requests that the province intervene. We are giving very serious consideration to those requests. As you know, municipalities, the province, virtually anybody has an opportunity to make an intervention. It is federally regulated in this particular case and as such it’s subjected to the jurisdiction of the National Energy Board.

The Ministry of the Environment worked with the Ministry of Energy to ensure that any potential environmental impacts arising from reversal of Line 9 are considered by the National Energy Board in its decision on the Enbridge application.

Our submission, I should say to the member, also stressed the importance of aboriginal and public consultations. So we will continue to monitor the process and the health, safety and environmental impacts of this proposal and consider those requests which have been made for what the member made reference to.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Jonah Schein: Back to the minister, a study by Toronto-area conservation authorities concluded that a spill from Line 9, like the one in Kalamazoo, Michigan, would constitute a “significant threat” to drinking water in the GTA. Under new federal rules, the project will not receive a federal environmental assessment, but Quebec has committed to conducting a provincial assessment to protect Quebecers.

Why will the Ontario Minister not stand up for the safety in drinking water of people in our province? Why won’t he launch a provincial environmental assessment that allows full public participation and full consideration of the environmental impacts of Line 9?

Hon. James J. Bradley: As I indicated to the member in my initial answer to him, we have received requests from different organizations that we undertake—even though it’s under federal jurisdiction—a provincial environmental assessment. I have indicated very clearly that we are assessing all of the information that has been provided to us, the various requests which have come to us. We have encouraged municipalities, various ministries of our government, and the public and interest groups out there to make the representations to the National Energy Board and to the federal government.

So we are giving full and comprehensive consideration to the requests which have been made, and we’ll be forthcoming with a fulsome answer at a point in time in the future.

PUBLIC TRANSIT

Ms. Dipika Damerla: My question is to the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure. This government’s commitment to infrastructure is unprecedented. Let me give you an example. Last year, this government spent $13 billion in Ontario alone. Compare that with the Conservative Harper government that spent a measly, paltry $3 billion across Canada. That just shows you the difference. The reason for that is because the Conservatives don’t understand the difference between spending and investment, and we do understand the difference between spending and investment.

Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister is: Recently, Metrolinx came out with a suggestion—just one recommendation of many—of some revenue tools as to how we can go on expanding public transit in the GTHA, and I’d like to hear his comments on it.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: The member for Mississauga East–Cooksville is quite correct. We’re having a very vigorous discussion.

I want to thank the member from Mississauga East–Cooksville and the member for York South–Weston. These are two Liberal members who have asked me questions almost every week about how we’re progressing and holding this government to account. I want to thank them.

I have not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six, but seven critics in the opposition, and I can’t get one question from the members opposite. The leader should be docking the critics’ pay, Mr. Speaker—seven critics. We’re having the most important conversation on transit expansion, green electrification, and the adult conversations going on outside—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Supplementary?

Ms. Dipika Damerla: Thank you, Minister, for that great answer.

I also want to talk about something very interesting that’s been happening in my riding recently. There’s a new sight in Mississauga, and that’s the sight of double-decker GO buses. Minister, I’d just like to get a sense from you a little bit about what these new double-decker buses mean for the good people of Mississauga.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: This is early and quick action on the Premier’s commitment to make transit investments a priority across Ontario, particularly in the GTHA and Ottawa.

These double-decker buses carry 81 people. They’re very green. They use one driver to carry more people, and while our old double-decker buses, because of their height, could only go on 11 different routes, these can go fully on 45 different routes and connect that. This means—for people, particularly in Hamilton and across the 905—more regular service, more efficient service and better value for tax dollars because they cost a lot less per kilometre to run.

One day, one of those critics is going to ask me a question, Mr. Speaker. I just know it. I can feel it. I’m just on the edge of my seat with anticipation.

POWER PLANTS

Mr. Victor Fedeli: For a half-year, we’ve been saying that documents have been withheld. You see, Project Vapour has been bugging us, Speaker. It’s been referred to in many, many, many emails, but somebody had asked for that document to be withheld. Today, in the fourth document dump we received—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Directed to?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: To the Premier.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Today, in the fourth document dump that we received, we now know why this document was withheld. Premier, do you recall signing the agenda for cabinet when Project Vapour was discussed? This is your signature. You authorized this Project Vapour. Was it you who ordered this document withheld, Premier? Is that why we didn’t have this until this very morning?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Now that I’ve got your attention: To the person who decides that once I get the quiet they want to use their moment in the sun, I will warn you.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Thank you very much, Mr.