Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, MAY 21, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 74

May 21, 1974 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape No. 1687 1-fINISTERIAL STATEMENTS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. NM - 1 HON. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise on a point of privilege. I notice that the press gallery is conspicuous by its absence. Oh! It is here. It is here. Good! I see the "Telegram'" representatives, so that will make my job a little easier. ~r. Speaker, I want to draw the attention of this House to another poison pen letter in the guise of an editorial contained in the Monday edition of "The Evening Telegram",May 20.

The heading of the editorial is "Come Across Mr. Collins~ It deals with the report on the tankers in Placentia Bay, the tanker route in Placentia BaY. The thrust of the editorial is that this report should be released. as it will be, Mr. Speak.er. But what I want to protest about and what I want to draw to the attention of the "Telegram" I do not know if they have an editorial board. Mr. Speaker, or if they just let the venomous spleen of their particular writers be thrown into their editorials as editorials. I do not know if this is supposed to be an example of investigatory reporting, Mr. Speaker.

I do not think it does a hell of a lot to improve journalism in Newfoundland. We have a statement here. After speaking about the representations of the honourable member for Placentia East, Mr. Aylward, and the matters he has raised about the tanker report, they go on to sav, "Their other member, Cabinet Minister Leo Barry, finds it convenient to ignore the plight of the fishermen." ~o facts, Mr. Speaker, backing up this statement, just a statement that I find it convenient to ignore the plight of the fishermen in my district.

"Although Minister of Energy and aware of what is going on, does he prefer to be the supporter of the policies of Mr. Shaheen to being the protector of the people of Placentia Bay?" Now, "Ir. Speaker, if the honourable gentleman or gentlemen who are responsible or is responsible for this editorial took the trouble to find out the facts they would have been aware that a representative of the Department of 6618

Hay 21, 1974 Tape No. 1687 NM - 2 ~ines and Energy, ~r. Cabot ~artin,who is classed as legal adviser to the mini s ter, the minister at the time being myself, was placed on this committee which investigated the situation in Placentia Bay at my request. A representative of the Department of Mines and Energy was placed there so that I could be fully briefed on the findings of the committee as the committee did its work, so that I could be involved rip.ht from the very hep.inning in the work of this commi ttee, Now to have this gutter journalism, Mr.

Speaker, this insulti.ng for the sake of insulting contained in this editorial, you know I de not understand what is !!;Oing on down there in "The Evening Telegram'' office. Is Lord Thompson of Fleet giving them such a hard time that they have to get something provocative to put in their newspapers? Is he so tight with his money that they carinot afford top.et out and do a little hit of investigating? Is this why they have to resort to statements like this, statements unsupported by the facts? ~ow I would not have even raised it today, Mr.

Speaker, if it had not been for the f~ct that they have hauled this paragraph or the sentence there, that I find it convenient to ignore the plight of the fishermen in my district, they have hauled that sentence verbatim out of a previous edition of "The Telegram'' some month or two months or three m.onths ago, an identical sentence either contained in an editorial or contained in a so-called

article by one of the reporters. Mr. Speaker, I submit that if this is what we can expect in the way of journalism, in the way of good reportinit, 1.n the way of good editorials in our newspapers in Newfoundland then God help us, we will have to look elsewhere for the information and for the informed comment that our people are entitled to. It is disgusting, Mr. Speaker. ~ RClBEP.TS..:_._ ~r.

Speaker, if I may say a word or two because the honourahle gentleman, the Minister of Mines and Energy,has raised a most serious matter, one that goes to the very heart of the democratic process in this country _ I think, Sir, that this vicious vendetta which obviously the gentle persons, to put the neutral on it, who edit 6619

'fay 21, 1974 Tape No. 1687 NM - 3 ''The Evening Telegram '', directed I have no doubt by Lord Thompson of Fleet himself, Sir - ~-~· RO~K:. Personally. MR. ROB.!:;_13,.!_S_:_ I have no doubt that Lord Thompson, sitting in his office in Fleet Street,in England, he is out to get the honourable gentleman. The word has gone forth, "Get Barry'.' Shortly a word will go forth, "Who :l.s l\arry?'' I SUJ!'gest, :-fr. Speaker, I suggest, Sir, that this vicious vendetta, I mean,how dare this newspaper print an opinion? What is this world coming to?

The next thinr,, Sir, we will have newspapers in this province suggesting the radical doctrine of one nerson one vote and I think, Sir, the minister, backed as he is by his colleagues in this matter, by their demeanour and by their actions, should move iinmediately that the Editor of "The Telegram" be dragged, by brute . force if necessary, before the bar of the House, that the 'Minister of Fisheries should be directed to get a large barrel of cod liver oil and have it boiled so that the editor of this paper - Sir, this is a deliberate plot because two years aro "The Telegram", Sir, had been a serious offender, the Premier of the Province is on record against them.

The House Leader called it a "scurrilous rag of yellow journalism." The honourable rentleman's intellectual mentor, the 'Minister of Finance, made another - AN HON. MEMBE~: Inaudible. '1R~ SPEAKER: Order please: MR. AYLWARD: Point of order, Mr. Speaker, I intend myself to raise one ~ftPr, I mean,surely the Leader of the Opposition can play what jokes he likes with it. You know I do not think this should be permitted on a point of personal privilege. Surely if a member feel is any member of this House or member of the opposition allowed to get up and turn it into ridicule? Mr.

Speaker, certainly points of privilege have some significance and if you are going to allow them to be turned into ridicule then what is the House coming to? I think the Leader of the Opposition should be called to order. 6620

May 21, 1974 Tape 1687 NM-4 MR. ROBERTS: May I speak to that point of order, Sir? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: May I speak to that point of order, Sir? Thank you. The honourable gentleman from Placentia East raised what he put forward as a point of privilege and we did him the courtesy to hear him out and Your Honour heard him out. I now wish to make a few observations on that point of privilege and I submit - MR, AYLWARD:, Is that in order? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, do I have the floor or do I not? MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Order please! MR.

ROBERTS: I am speaking to a point of order the honourable member raised. Now if he can remember that - MR. W.N.ROWE·: The big fool. MR . ROBERTS: I merely wish, Sir, to continue the point of order, I merely wish to speak to the point of privilege - MR. AYLWARD: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is any member of this House entitled to speak on a point of personal privilege, a point of order? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am speaking on a point of order - MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Order please! The honourable member rose on a point of order.

The honourable Leader of the Opposition rose to speak to that point of order and when the honourable Leader of the Opposition is finished I shall then rule. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. All I am saying is that the gentleman from Placentia 1.~e,,;:: put forward a point of privilege. Now as Your l·onour has time and time again ruled, points of privilege in the House are a matter affecting either the privileges of a member in which case a motion must follow or privileges of the House.

I am merely attempting to speak in support of the point of privilege and all I am doing is suggesting that there is a deliberate plot obviously on the part of the "Evening Telegram" and the ministry have been valiantly fighting against this and I submit I should be allowed to carry on and to finish my remarks and then Your Honour will rule as Your Honour sees fit. 662 ,.

'-lay 21, 1974 Tape No. 1687 NM - 5 MR. WM. ROFE: Hear! Hear! ----- - MR. BARRY___:_ If I could speak to that point of order. Mr. Speaker, obviously . as you might have gathered from some of my remarks, I do not really have any great hopes of changing the editorial policy of "The Telegram" although I would hope that they would change. The point of order is that the point made by the member for Placentia East is a perfectly valid one; the honourable Leader of the Opposition ohviously fails to realize the significance of this editorial comment.

The matter of the tanker routes in Placentia Bay is a matter of great concern to the residents on both sides of Placentia Bay. It is a matter of great concern to me as a member representing the residents of the western side of the Bay and I do not think it is appropriate for the honourable Leader of the Opposition to be making light and making mock of this serious matter. I do have concern for the residents of Placentia Bay. I do have concern for what is going on with this investigation and I am keeping myself informed on it.

The point that I wanted to make and I make again is that this editorial was totallv without foundation. The opinion there was ill-informed, insulting and abusive. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Perhaps the Chair was a little lax in that the point of privilege raised by the honourable Minister of Mines and Energy, perhaps a matter of opinion between himself and the editorial as it was presented in the paper.

The point of privilege is not accompanied hy a motion of any sort, Again the Chair was perhaps a little lax in permitting the honourable Leader of the Opposition, or any other member for that matter in replying to a point of privilege when indeed it was not a point of privilege in the first place, MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, ~eeing that I am the one who was most aggrieved in this and the Leader of the Opposition and my colleages spoke, am I permitted to say a few words? MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

Honourable members will not be permitted to reply to a point of privilege when it was not a point of privilege in the 6622

May 21, 1974 Tape No. 1687 NM - 6 firs;t place. !-IR. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, on a point of personal privilege I would like to quote the same editorial. I had occasion only a few weeks ago to speak about the same matter, Mr. Speaker, and I feel that this matter,as my honouable and learned friend from Placentia West has suggested, is a matter of vital concern to the fishermen of Placentia East and Placentia West, Placentia East in particular. I made my position clear time and time again on that and I dealt with it in some detail with the consent of my honourable friends ooposite last time, Mr. Speaker. MR.

ROBERTS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, please: MR. SPEAKER~ Order please! ~- ROBERTS: To a point of order, Sir. Your Honour has ruled that there is no point of privilege in the editorial on this subject. Now, Sir, the honourable rentleman obviously has whatever rights an honourable gentleman has to raise points of privilege but, Mr.

Speaker, if there be a debate on this, I submit that Your Honour has no choice but to allow all concerned to get into it. 1 am prep~red, Sir, if Your Honour wish and if it be in order, to put down a motion this minute if the government wish to debate this subject of the Placentia Bay tanker routes but all we have had now is one member, who happens to be a minister, crying and another minister about to cry. t,ell let us all get into it, Sir, and let us not have this deliberate misrepresentation of my oosition which the gentleman from Placentia West attempted.

I am prepared to move a motion, Sir, if Your Honour would permit and if we wish to debate this matter. '1R. AYWARD: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker, you must first hear what ihe privilege is before you can rule on it. In my circumstances you have not even heard it. I respectfully submit, in compliance with the precedence of this House ,you at least hear me as you have done on numerous occasions since your election to the Chair. After you have heard me you will decide whether it is a matter of privilege or not, 6623

Tape No. 1687 ~M - 7 So I ask for your concurrence to continue,please. MR. SPEAKER: The Chair feels that it has an obligation to hear any honourable member for that matter on a point of privilege because I have no intention of ruling on a point of privilege before I have heard the substance of it and I am not prepared to allow honourable members to debate a point of orivilege. -~· AYLW~RD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This was just a few remarks by way of introduction. I will certainly keep it brief, Mr.

Speaker, but it was simply this~ There is no area of Newfoundland and no member in this House who represents any constituents so concerned about this matter as mine in Placentia East. I have been quite close to this matter since 1ts inception. I think I can say with some confidence that my suggestions to the minister in the beginning had somethinp to do with the formation of that tanker route committee. Now, Mr. Speaker, when I brought this up before the same reaction was elicited from the opposition as we heard here today.

I am not quarrelling with that but I want the fishermen in my district and the fishermen in Newfoundland to know where I stood on that and I have said that several times in this House but "The Evening Telegram" saw f:!t,for reasons beat known to themselves.not to repeat it and that is this: - Any fisherman in Placentia Bay who is adversely affected by the tanker routes in my oninion should be compensated. Now the position that I am arriving at is this, ~r.

Speaker, this editorial after some introductory remarks goes on, "One of their backbenchers, Fintan Aylward, did raise the question of the tankers and the fishermen some weeks ago but fell into silence. The story is that he was told to be quiet and stop embarrassing the minister." Mr. Speaker, I say that is down right lies. I challenge the Editor of "The Eveninp; Telegram" or anyone else on ''The Telegram" to produce any individual, inside, outside Newfoundland anywhere, and I think if the ~inister nf Fisheries if he were allowed to speak could verify what I am saying here.

I respect his judgement and the coBSideration that they are giving it and I do think that it was under his direction that 6624

Tape N'o. 1687 NM - 8 this tanker route committee was instigated. But, Mr. Sneaker, there is no one, and this story is a fabrication and a fi~ent of the imagination of the editor. Surely the ueople of Newfounrlland have the right to expect honesty and accuracv from the editorial comment and I say tha.t this comment insofar as I am concerned is dishonest and untrue and I will say this outside the House, ins:! de the House, anywhere. If the Ed:l.tor of "The Evenin(?; Telep.ran," wanted the facts and wanted to know where I stood on it, I would have been more than glad to give it to him. So I say that this was, '-'r.

Speaker, both untrue and dishonest. MR. SPEAKER: While the Chair is aware of the importance of the topic raised by the honourable members and raised in the editorial, again the honourable member has risen on a point of privilege which was not accompanied by any motion to censure or take any action so it is really a matter of opinion at this point between the honourable member and the press. 'ffi.. ROBERTS: May I rise on a matter of privilege, Sir? I have a motion I wish to put. Mr.

Speaker, my motion is simply that the Editor of "The Evening Telegram"' be commended for his outspoken oninion on a matter of vital public interest, namely the possible effect of tankers on the fisheries in Placentia Bay. MR. WM. ROWE: Hear! Hear! MR. ROBERTS: Seconded by the gentleman from White Bay South, Sir. In putting this forward, Sir, I submit this motion is a matter which does touch the privileges of the House and I submit that it is in order and that it should be called for debate immediately as are all matters of privileges.

The privilege, Sir, is this; this House has a deep and an abiding interest in ensuring that there is freedom of debate both in this House and without,and we are seeing a consistent pattern of obstruction and of harrassment by ministers and other government supporters against the press in this province, Sir. We have seen the Premier of the province attack "The Evening Telegram." We have seen the Minister of Finance lash out in a 6625

May 21, 1974 Ta1>e No. 1687 NM - 9 scathin~ and bitter personal attack on the Editor of "The Evening Tele~ram." We have seen the gentleman from Placentia West make a bitter personal attack on the Editor of "The Evening Telegram," all of them under guise of a question of privilege, none of them - MR. NEARY: The Minister Without Portfolio. MR. ROBERTS: Right. I will come to that, none of them having put fo-rvard any motion so that this House can deal with it. We have seen the Minister Without Portfolio, the gentleman from St, John's East, do the same thing.

We have now seen the gentleman from Placentia East call the editor I believe, a liar. I submit, Sir, that it is in the public interest that this motion be admitted for debate and that it be debated immediately, This is a concerted and an organized attack upon the freedom of the press. I hold no brief for "The Evening Telegram''. I have bean attacked as savagely as any member in their opinion columns and they have the right to do it.

I submit this House, Sir, as a matter of urgent privilege should deal with this and should deal with it immediately and that the way to deal with it is by the motion which I have put forward, Sir. ~- MARSHALL: On that point, Mr. Speaker, this is not a breach of nrivilep;e. I refer to the Standing Orders and note that the Standing Orders which are really a codification of Beauchesne which indicate that an attack in a newspaper to constitute a breach of privilege must come within a definition and not be a dispute as to the allegation of certain facts.

This is not really a proper motion the Leader of the Opposition is bringing out, it is just one merely to attempt to make political gain and I do not think it should be allowed or entertained. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, if I can speak to that point of order just briefly, that point of privilege. My statements were in no way a blanket condemnation or attempt to stifle 6626

'fay ~l , l '17 t, Tane ]~88 (Afternoon) PK - l the free exnress:fon of on1nion in the "Fvenfn~ TeleFram' or a publication in the nrovince, any nart of the me~1a in the urovince. It is a deliberate m1srenresentation hy the so-called p,entlemen oonosite to sugpest that ,,,as the case. However, Mr. Snea.ker, hecause th err :Is such a thi.nf' as freedom of the nress.t~at rloes not mean that there should he irresnons:lb1litv in either renorting or 1n editorial comment. That does not mean that members of this Honse are not entitled to get un and d:fs,ui:ree with the oninions that are made either :In an editori.al or in an

article in any part of the medi a. "r. S'!'eaker, this is ,.,hat T :Intend to do on this or any other occasion. T P:11 l not . ~ust becam'le T have c'!eci<leci to stand for election, have mv character and my renutation imnugned in silence. ft.nv time that this sort of ill-founded oninion, unsunoorted hy any fact, Mr. Sneaker, 1 s nut out in. anv ne,,,snaner or anv other media in this nrov-Jnce, T am '(oin" to laRh r1pht haclr at them, '<r. Sneaker. That is mv nos:ltion. AN fl()N . MflAJ\FR: HE>.ar: fl'ear! ~f'P..

SPFAKF'P.: I do we shall take the "hole motion uncler advisement and rule on ft later todav. ~-Pn!lF'l?T~, "ay T draP Your Honour's attention to Ci tat ion 10R (3) wh:! ch T iauhmit is in noint. T.t is on nage <1'l of Beauchesne. HINI~TE'RIAL t;TATEl'ENTS "R • !' . J . A YU'A''J) : "r. Sr,.,aker, on this hnsine!'s , th" Hinister of Fisheries indicated that he ~as sneaking to anoint of nriv:llege there 'IS well . A-r,'./ fin~,. ''E~'llY'P.· T.naudihl~. ---- - ---- 1-rn.

AYV.,'A'Rn: .Tust a moment. --------- i~ COLTJN~ :._ Yes. ''r. <;t\eal,er, ~•ith vour uermissiot\ of courAe always, he:lng the oneaggrieved there and caught in the middle - "R. S'f'l'AKFP: f'lrder, nJ ease! The r.J,:i.ir has ruled twice todav that it has !'erm:ftted a rnembP.r to sn.,al< to a no!nt of nr:lvileve •••hP.n indf'f>d on a rule basis it wa<J not a point of nrivilege :In the first nlace. Tlnless the Hon. 6627

May 21. 1<174 Tape l~R8 (Afternoon) PK - 2 Minister of Fisheries 1s rising on another personal noint of privilege, I shall not nermit a debate on the previous one. }1R. C0LLINS: Mr. Sneaker, one thin,i: now about this, and this is my o~-n nersonal point of nrivile,i:e now, is that some of the nersons who read the "Fvening Telegram" might think that fellow r.ollins who is writing editorials and evervthing else 1s their member.

I cannot let that go unchallenged hut I want to make it clear now that I have nothing to do .,,,ith 'l-.'T1ting editorials in the "Eveninp; Telegram' ' • I have no relation at all in the world, no relation at all in the world. The honourable "'emher for Hermitage wants to p;et up and have a big laugh, the nrosnective leader, vou know, the guy who thinks he is going to be the leader, the guv who was elected on the basis he is going to put up a good fight for the leadership of the Liberal Party, if he want to get un, Mr. Sneaker, and have a few words, you know he is entitled to it.

All the neople in Green Bay District, you know, where he left, they all know that hfs ambition was to become the leader of the Liberal Partv, that he ran in Hermitage Tlistrict, where he got elected - MR. SPFAKFR: ()rder, n]ease! Order, please! The Hon. Minister of Fisheries I am sure is not even relevant to anoint of privilege. PF'l'ITIONS "R • SPEAKFJ? : The honourable Member for ~onavista South. !"P• J. C. vo~CA ': !·'r. Speaker. To get on with the business of the House. Thank you, )fr. Sneaker, I heg leave to i,resent a petition from the parents of children in the Community of Charleston, in my district.

The netition is a rather different one from other petitions. This petition is asking that the present school at the r.ommunity of Princeton, where the children from Charleston now attend,not he keot onen this year. Normally the netition ~•ould asl<: that the school be kept o-pen but in this case the narents of Charleston feel that the classrooms that their children ~•ere attending last year, the facilities there are not adequate. For example, there are no bathroom facilities, there is no running water etc. iecauae 6628

"av ?l. 1"74 T:ine 1~8R (Afternoon) PK - 3 of th:it tr.Pv f P.el th:it their chi lnren should not he lcent in th11.t school th:!is vear, 1971,-J.0 7~,but inste/l.d thev ghnu1rl he transnorten from r,harleston to Lethhridge. Thev are hoping that the nortable classrooms Hhich "'ill he ;icldec1 to the school 1tt Lethhr.inpe w1.11 this vear accol'lmodate the.ir children ;it that ,;chool in Lethhridge.

The pet:!tinn was forwarded to me hut, of course, it relates d-f.rectlv to the llonavista-1'rini.ty-Concer>tion Tntegratecl School Board hut I am go:f.np to ask the l'ouise that this netition be tabled and nassed along to the nennrtment of Education and to taYe note of the uoints that the narents ll.re bringing forward on this matter.

(1) They mentioned that there are no facilities fnr an adeouate supnlv of water in this schnol at Princeton, as the nre!'lent ,-•ater suonlv has hPeti condemned hv the Denartment of Fealth. (2) 'J'hP. proposed extension to the school facilities at LPthhridge hecau,;e of the addition of nortah]e classrooms should he able to accommodate all the reaminin~ children at Princeton Schppl. And

(3) Phereas it was not formerly financially feasible to have two teachers with onlv two 11,rades, it should not no"' he financiall:v accentahle to have such a situation, esneci:illv considering that the nronosed r,rade VII class will h1tve onlv thirteen children.

(4) There are no fac:ll:lties or snecialists instructions available at the Princeton school to nrovide all necessary in!'ltruction to meet the educational standards as presentlv outlined hy the nepartment of Fducation. ~o look:fng at these four very val:l.d Points, J fully sunoort the viewnoint of the narent!'! of Charleston and I sincerelv hone that the Ronavista-Trinity Tntegrated School lloard will find it accP.ntahle to them and convenient to them to arrange for the bussing of these ch:!.ldren from Cherle,;ton thi'l vear, -tn Septemher, from Charleston to the new additional classrooms at the school at Lethhridge.

Mr. Sneaker. I ask leave to have this Petition tabled in the House of Assemhlv and nresented to the Department of F:ducation to which it relates. """. ~r "~KF:11: The hrmourahle Memher for St. Barbe North. ---- -- M~. F. R. l'l()! ,TF: ''r. Sne:iker, T rise in !'!unnort, on behalf of my colleagues to sunnnrt the nett ti.on presented hv the ''emher for Ronavista South and 6629

Tape 1688 (>fternoon) PK - 4 on hehalf of the parents of children living in Charleston,who are now hr:lnf?:l.ng the-tr children to the school in Princ-eton I understand. This is an exanmle, Mr. Sneaker, of the tyne of th:lng that is going on all over the nrovince, where schools, some small, some large are l-eing forced to cone with facilities that ehould not he allm~ed to exist in thP. T,-,entieth Century. This is directlv thf' result of the fact that these school hoards are not receivirg sufficient operating grants to service these particular schools.

There are many more exal!lllles that we have read ahout and heard about through the media in the nast few months. Tt is a sorry situation and ,.,e certainly sut1port the concept of having these children hussed to Lethhridge this coming year. The only prohlem ap.ain that we can see here is the fact that the new school hus transnortation formula will still leave some school boards short of funds for the nurnose of onerating the school huses and we hope this is not the case in connection with this narticular school board.

But, Sir, we do support the petition presented by the Member for Ronavista South. 1"1? .• SPF.AKFR: The Hon. Minister of Education. RON. G. ~. O'ITF.NRV.D4ER (~INISTEP OF EDUCATIO~): Mr. Speaker, in sneaking hrieflv on the petition Presented by the honourahle Member for Bonavista South, actually I received a copy of that petition a few days ago. I was ouite familiar with it. As a matter of fact, I have already replied, not obviously to everybody who signed the petition hut the first signature on the petition was Reverend Babb.

I wrote him; through him honefully all who are residents 1n the area interested in the netition, informed him that we had received it and certainly we would pass along the points of view and requests contained therein on hehalf of the petitioners to the denom:lnational authorities and the school board. As a matter of fact, the letter has already gone out to that gentleman. MR • SPF.AKER : The Ron. Minist~r of Mines and F.nergy. MR. L.D. BAf>..RY (MINISTER OF ~INES AND FNERCY): ~r. Sneaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Brookside, Placentia 6630

'T'apP lfR R (Afternoon) pl( - ~ West. 'T'\,e Praver of the net1t1on 1s that the res1dents of Tirooksi.de reouRs:t that thR Toad fTom lloat Harhour to BTooks1de he> TeconstTucted and ungraded this year. Th1s road is at Present verv narrow and has rlangerous curves and tlie resjrlents fe>el that it 1s esneciallv hazardous in winter. Mr. Sneaker, WE' had an ornnrturd tv to P,et some funds to do Rome ungrad1.ng on this road in this past vear.

I hor>e that we ~rill he ahle to see> our ~,,av clear to hav:lns;, some additional funds for further up11:rading this ve,i.r. 1 as!r. that this neti.t:lon he tahled and referred to the department to Phi.ch it reV1te .s. MR, SPEAKFR: 'l'he honourable "ember for Bell Island. MR, S. A. NEARY: Mr. S'leaker, we sunport the netition presented hv the Hem1'er for Placentia '•'est on behalf of his constituents in Brookside, 1n the District of Placentia Pest, to have the roa<l ungraded or reconstructed from Roat Harbour to llrooksi<le.

We do hone, Sir, that the minister will he able to nresua<le his col league. tlie ''1nister of 'l'ransnortation and Co1T'l!\un1cat1.ons. to have this work none th.-1.i; vear. }IOTIONS: Mll. SPl'AKF.ll: 'T'he flon. Mi n5 ster of Provincial Affairs and Environment. HON. r., nAWF ('11NIS'T'RR flF PROVINCJAT, AFFAIRS AND ENVIR!1~NT): The Retia-11 Fstate Agents: LicenciPP: Rep:ul1tt-! ons for 1974, 'Ir. Sneaker. MR. SP EAKfll : The Hon. Minister of Mines and Fnergy. ~'R.

RARRY: Mr, Sneaker, J give notice that on tomorrow I shall request leave to nresent a bill, ··1,n Act Resnect1n11; 'T'he Newfoundland Power Cornoration. ,. Mr. Sneaker, also at tJ,i s ti1'1e, T am not sure> if I ~houlrl have done this as the first item on the order of husiness hut with the leave of the House I 1-rould like to table a copy of an information circular of thE' Department of ~'ines and Energy. Information Circular No. 15, An Outline Of The Geology Of Labrador. Mr. Speaker, this is an area of our provinc~ 6631

"'ay 21, 1°74 Tape l~RR (Afternoon) Pl< - ~ which as ~,e all know has great potential. Unfortunatelv, up to now there has not been as much known about the geology of the area as is desirahle in order to encourage mineral development in the area. With this report which was done hy Mr.

Brian Greene of the Department of Mlnes and Energv, containing an over-view of the p.eoloizy of Labrador, containing some references to the Labrador offshore, the activity and the geology on the r.ontinental Shelf off Labrador as well, this should encourage further geolop:ical work in Labrador and hopefully further geological development there. There are copies available for any members who would like them, I do not oarticularly want to distribute them to everybody because unless somehody particularly wants them they can be distributed - they would be more use to people.

They want a half a dozen on the other side1 nkay I will p:et them. ~. SPFAll'.F.P.: ORAL OtTESTIONS The honourable ~lemher for Fop:o. MR. E. W. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, may J direct a question to the Hon. ~inister of Fisheries. Now that the special committee on the Placentia Bay Tanker Route as such has struck such a sensitive nerve, can t~e Minister of Fisheries tell the Rouse when this report will be tabled or made public? MR. SPFAKFR: The Hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I did not press too much on points of privilege or points of order because I knew that somebody, some of the honourable members opposite would give me the opportunity to sav lmat I wanted to say. It is better to say it in this context than in the other, Possibly. AN HON. !IBMBFR: 'MR. COLLINS: Inaudible. I have heen around. I hEtve been around , you know. The honourable member had been there only for a few months, Mr. Speaker, and I have been here several years. I intend to remain several years hence. The honourable member may not have that opportunity. But, Mr.

Speaker, the appo:fntment of the co11111ittee to investigate and to look into and search into the effects on the fishermen of the activities of the various tankers, the crude oil carriers, the big ships that 6632

''av 2] , J n74 T'\ne 1Ml8 (Afternoon) come in to Placentia 1\;,v, the !S!llaller shins taJ.-:lnp: a,,,av the refined nroducts, jt heca~e a maior concern of this p.overnment shortlv after we assumed noYer. PK - 7 Last swmner T tooJ.- it upon myself, after receivinp the p:u1dance and at the reouest of the honourahle Memher for Placentia Fast and the honoura1'le "!ember for Placentia West, to look into this Particular i:;ituation.

We decided that rather than taking the government ' s noint of view and trving to P.:lnss things over as hai:; hai,nened in the Past too often, we decided to set up a committee. ~e aP11oint nr. Walter Templeman,who is a renm,med tJewfoundJ.and, comitHZ from RonaviRta, retired now from the Federal 1':1.sherv 8ervice,to hea<l un the committee. We anPointed a lot of other well known Ne,,foundlanders to sit down. We did not p:ive them terms of reference to recol'IITlend to government what should or should not he done.

We gave them terms of reference to look into the situation as it affected the Newfoundland fishermen, and all of u~ alt.rays have the interest of the Ne~rfoundland fishermen at heart. We anpointed people from the Federal nenartment of the Fnvironment. We do not have a Federal ))epartment of Fisheries. We annointed someone from the Federal nenartment of the Fnvironment. We also appointed oeople from the ~•fnistrv of Transport.

We also annointed neople from our o~m nenartment of Fnvironment, neoo]e from my colleague:' s deaortment here, Mines and Fner~v. all of the other people who mi~ht or might not have any or have some imput into the decision-makinj? nrocess. Well we had f:lsheries neople on it. We also, I think my friend here, we also had a lot of Jongliner operators from Come Rv Chance and Lonr. Harbour and T,ittle ~arbour Fase and all the way down the hav, not only Placentia Fa~t nistrict but down in St. Mary's Distrfct.

We took evervbodv ,,,ho might have had an :1.nterest into account and they were put on the committee along with renresentatives from the "'isheTI!len's \1n1on, }'r. Sneaker. 1'hev sat down, in St. John'R. and determined the aooroach to it and thev talked with 150 fishermen in that district, trving to e~tabliRh.and thev did, tryfn~ to establish what the effect might 1,e on the:1.r ,,,ay of 11 fe as 1 t were. Those neople have ~-rritten a really good renort. 'l'hev nut thP whole thing in persnect:l .ve. not making recommendations 6633

Mav 21, 11!74 Tape 1688 (Afternoon) PK - 8 to p.overnment what thev should do,because the government have a resnonsi~ility after readinp, the report and looking at the evidence and digesting it so on and so forth. The government have got the responsihil1 .ty to determine what is going to happen. So conseciuently, we did not p.ive them, you know that was not mentioned in their terms of reference. They were told to tell us what the implicat:1 .ons are. Thev have done a good 1ob. I have rece:fved the report. t received the renort ahout two month!'! ap.o, which was a preliminary reTlort.

About one month ago I rece1.ved the officiAl renort , w hich was signed bv all the people who made up the task force or the co11111ittee, however you want to refer to :It. After all the peonle interested and involved had signed it, they submitted it to me hecauRe I, as Minister of Fisheries, you know, had insti~ated the renort. Since the report has been received we have looked at it. When I say looked at it, we have looked at it and looked at it and 1.-oked at it. We have read it over and over and over and over, always bearing in mind what it means to the fishermen of Placentia Bay. This is the whole idea.

We did not appoint the committee to tell us what should be done to protect Mr. Shaheen. We did not appoint the col!lllittee to tell us what should be done to protect anyone else, we were thinking about the fishermen in Placentia Bay. Hr. Speaker, I am hapuy to be able to say today that, I think. the Federal ~-!ember for St. John' R West and in "'hose district you know Placet1tia Bay is, he tvas :In the gallery a little while ago. Fie has gone now. It was at his instigation too, you know, that we 11:ot involved in this particular process. We received the reuort and we are considering it.

Within the next few days, ~lease goodness , we shall make t~e report available to the public of Newfoundland but particularly to the fishermen in Placentia Bay. When they make the re"Dort available, we are going to be making some recommendations, you know, which we think should he made in view of what is recommended - not recommended but in view of what is stated in the report. It iR not gain~ to he at the request of the 6634

Tape 1688 (Afternoon) PK - 9 " Evening Telegram " . The "r.veninp. Telegram '' can he on to me ever ydav in the weeJ,. We are going to release thj s renort t.rhen we are fully readv to release it. alwavs bearing in mind the interest of the fishern,en i n that narticular oart of Newfoundland. Hear! Rear: AN HON. HRMRF.r : ""R . PINSOR: A sunnlementar•, question, Mr. Sneaker. Will the honourable minister submit a full report of that committee? Or will it he cenRored? :M:R .• NfARY: Will it be a censored report? MR. cnLLINS: ~fr. Soear.er, we never censor anythin!!. Oh! 0h; 1'1ll. NF..ARY: 'MR .

COLLINS: If there were every a goverrment in ~his province which released renorts, you know, as they were received, as ouicklv as oossible, this government, you know, we have set all sorts of records. I can think, if J want to go back to renorts and reports and reports - I have the e,cperjence because I was here, the honourable Member for Hermitage was not here. We, release all of cur renorts albejt as 11uickly yuu know, auicker than was ever done before. The honourable Member for Hermitage, Mr.

Speaker - Look, I said ;ust no,., that he told the people in Green Rav that he is running for the leadershjn of the Liberal Party at the apnronriate time because he thought it was a great chance, you know, owing to the ,-reakness of the honourable Memher for White Ray North, that he had a good chance of becoming leader of it. He told the people in Hermitage, Mr. Speaker, the Rame thing. That is hot-1 he t-1on the election. He told them that he was going to hecome the leader of the Liberal Party, you know,' Mr. Roberts was dotm and out, p:one ! " MR. STWONS: Oh, come on now. MR.

CflLLI !'TS: The gentle111an was despiser!, he ,~as finished. 6635

May 21, 1974, Tape 1689, Page 1 -- apb Afternoon MR. COLLINS: There he is, Mr. Speaker, he is still fighting the leadership campaign. MR. ROBERTS: The honourable gentleman did not answer the question. I hope he will. Would he also c, firm the fact that he has accepted the position of campaign man11ger to "Mr, John Crosbie" when he returns from Venice.for his run for the Tory Leadership? MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, there is one thing I know for sure; If I accepted the position of chairman for "Mr.

Cros'bie" to fight any leadership campaign, there is no doubt about it, there would be no bills owed to small restaurants in Hermitage District, there would be no bills owed to small people around the province, I can assure you, Sir, that those bills would be paid. MR. ROBERTS: Answer the question. Is th• report to be made public? MR. WINSOR: Hr. Speaker, may I direct this - MR. ROBERTS: Who paid for "Poster Peckford"f HR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. WINSOR: May I direct thil!I question to the honourable the Minister of Fisheries?

Can he tell the House when a chairman for the fishing Industry Advisory Board will be appointed, to get that board back in action again? MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, as the honourable member knows and I am not dodging the issue nor shelving the responsibility, but the responsibility for the appointment of that particular board rests with my good, competent, well-known, likeable colleague - AN HON . MEMBER: Overworked. MR. COLLINS: Overworked, one of the best things that ever happened to Newfoundland, my colleague, the honourable Minister of Labour.

We are in close consultation and I am sure that my colleague, after taking everything into account, will come up with the right person to do what is necessary to protect the interests of the good fishermen of this province. MR. WINSOR: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary question: Can the minister tell us why that advisory board was taken out of the Department of 6635

May 21, 1974, Tape 1689, Page 2 -- apb Afternoon Fisheries and put into the Department of Labour? What is the reason for this? MR. COLLINS: The honourable member must have a short memory or otherwise - I was going to say he was'stund' and that is a good Newfoundland term but I am sure he is not 'stund'.

The honourable member if he were doing his job,introduced the bill,after his trip to Iceland, Norway and Sweden and Finland and all the other Scandinavian and European Countries, the bill was introduced but the opposition out behind the curtains, the opposition were out behind the curtains for the simple reason that they were all kicked out, in 1969 or 1970 they were all kicked out when the fisheries legislation was brought in and the honourable member was Minister of Fisheries at the time. A!il HON. ME:1-IBER: Acting. MR. COLLINS: The bill then was brought in by the Minister of Labour, our late friend.

Why does the honourable member ask me a question like that? My goodness! Is he lapsing in memory? MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I feel that that committee should be under the Department of Fisheries. We were about to change it back when - MR. ROBERTS: What about the Premier's connnitment to introduce legislation two years ago? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I suppose it is safe to ask a question or two. I would like to put a couple of questions to the Minister of Industrial Development, Sir: Is the minister now in a position to indicate to the House when hiring will take place for the construction of the Lower Churchill?

HON. C.W.DOODY (Minister of Industrial Development): No, Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to inform the House at the present time. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the reason I am asking these questions now is because this is the last opportunity we will probably have to put these very important questions to the ministers. Would the minister indicate then to the House when hiring will take place on the second oil refinery at Come by Chance? MR, DOODY: As I understand it,the site work on the second refinery 6637

May 21, 1974, Tape 1689, Page 3 - apb Afternoon is supposed to start in June. I think the same is true of the Lower Churchill so I assume that the hiring will take place at approximately the same time as they start the work, Sir. MR. NE.ARY: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Mines and Energy: Would the minister indicate to the Rouse if his department, or if he hi111self or the govemiaent have approached the major oil companies to ask them for proof of the necessity of increasing the price of gasoline and oil in this province last week? MR. L.D.BARRY (Minister of Mines and Energy): Mr.

Speaker, we are in the position of seeing the Liberal Government in Ottawa consenting to and authorizing the multinational oil companies to increase the price of petroleum products in Newfoundland as in the rest of Eastern Canada.in the vicinity of 3.7 centa per gallon, part of which increase covers federal sales taxes (The shame of it:) part of which increase is permitted to the oil companies because of rising operating costs even though they have experienced large increases in profits over the last couple of years. Mr.

Speaker, we do not have any mechanism, any legislative authority for requiring oil companies to justify their price increases in the Province of Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, even if this normally would be done on a voluntary basis by the oil companies, the action of the federal government makes it that much 1110re difficult for us to get this information now, because the oil c0111panies merely come to us and say; "All we are doing is taking advantage of what has been permitted by the Liberal Government in Ottawa." Mr.

Speaker, as I have told the honourable Rouse several times before, I have had many diacusaiona with I think every major oil company since prices started to increase laat September. We have started to collect information on the method of pricing, on the way in which they break up the province, for example, into many different areas where they all have different transportation coats imposed, The gasoline you buy at the pump in St. John's is a different price than the gasoline you buy at the pump down in St. Alban's, for ex11111ple, or 6638

May 21, 1974, Tape L68q, Pa~e 4 -- aph Afternoon Marystown or elsewhere. This is due to a difference in transportation costs. There is an enormous quantity of information that would have to be collected and then analyzed before there would be any purpose in requesting this type of information from the oil companies. You have to have the people who can sit down and analyze the information, you have to hav~ a large increase in staff. Mr. Speaker, the first thing that we want to determine is whether there will be any saving to the consumer in Newfoundland by .engaging in this exercise.

Unless our setting up this mechanism should result in decreased costs to the Newfoundland consumer, why do it? Because, Mr. Speaker, the very setting up of this mechaniSlll and the hiring of extra people is an extra burden on the taxpayer in Newfoundland. If I could just refer Your Honour to an analogous situation, a comment made in British Colmnbia with respect to the construction industry, This is a statement contained in the "Daily News" a couple of weeks ago or last week some time.

"It costs the construction industry in Canada $300 million a year to produce, distribute, receive, store and retrieve product information." This is an example in another industry. AN HON. MEMBER: That is irrelevant. MR. BARRY: It is nor irrelevant, Mr. Speaker, it is directly to the point that the honourable member - AN HON. MEMBER: Re is just killing time. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. BARRY: I am not killing time, Mr. Speaker. The point that is made here is that the waste represented by such ineffectual literature is an unnecessary charge upon construction . which is ultimately home by the consumer.

So, not only, Mr. Speaker, would we have a tax burden on the people of Newfoundland by setting up an organization to collect such information and analyze it and so on, but there is also an extra cost to the oil companies which in turn they will want to recover from the consumer. Before, Mr. Speaker, we engage in any such exercise we are going to make very sure that we are going to be in a position to be able to S538

May 21, 1974, Tape 1689, Page 5 -- apb Afternoon effectively reduce the price to the consumer in Newfoundland, It may be, Mr. Speaker, that we will just find that if we put ourselves in the position of saying to the oil companies; "Justify your prices," and then a little later saying; "That is not a justification. we do not accept your prices." They will just say to us; "That is fine • we will go sell our petroleum in Montreal or Toronto or Ottawa or Vancouver or New York.

We do not need you with your measly little forty thousand barrels a day or whatever it is." We have to first determine just how effective such a mechanism can be and this is what we are doing right now. AN HON. MEMBER: All we need is a Liberal Government like they have in Nova Scotia. MR. BARRY: Yes. We -nt a Liberal Govemaent like they have in Ottawa that authorized the price increase and consented to it, Mr. Speaker, I think that anavera - MR. NEARY: That is all it is, Mr, Speaker. We need a Liberal Govemment like they have over in the Province of Nova Scotia, MR, SPEAKER: Order please!

MR, NEARY: Would the Minister of Industrial Development care to tell the House what is happening down at the site of the old steel plant? Are these building all going to be demolished down there? Just what kind of work is going on down there at the present time? MR, DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, there are only two of the small back buildings, the concast mill and the melt shop that are being demolished or dismantled and sold, The main buildinga, the office buildings on the main mill part of the operation,will re111ain intact, As a matter of fact, there are some operations going on in these buildings now but these two big, large, strange-looking objects a·t the back are being demolished as far as I can understand. MR.

NEARY: A supplementary question: Would the minister inform the House if the shipbuilding or the boatbuilding is still going ahead in· this building that is going to remain on the site? Is this the plan? MR, DOODY: Does the honourable 111e111ber -an the fibreglas mold thing? The last I heard of it they were waiting for the resins to come in.

May 21, 1974, Tape 1689, Page 6 -- apb Afternoon They are waiting for some extra resins to carry on with the boatbuilding bit, but to the best of my knowledge they have every intention of carrying on with it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the (Acting) Premier could inform the House what has become of the Premier and the Minister of Finance? Are they off on government business? Are they off on a pleasure jaunt? What is going on? Are they on government business? Or is it pleasure? MR. EVANS: They are on Bell Island. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! AN HON. MEMBER: They are gone for ginger ale. MR.

SPEAKER: Order please! Order please! MR. NEARY: Would the (Acting) Premier care to tell us? Tongue-tied! He is not going to tell us. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: That is in Venice. AN HON. MEMBER: Is it? MR. NEARY: He is in a gondola over in - MR. SPEAKF.R: Order please'. MR. NEARY: Would the Minister of Provincial Affairs care to inform the House if Mrs. Plumptre has gotten all here information yet that she needs from the province? I understand the original report was rejected. There was no co-operation from the minister and his department. Jl!R. SPEAKER: Order please! MR.

NEARY: Is the minister now in a position to tell the House if Mrs. Plumptre has gotten the information she needs yet to draft her final report? HON. W.G.DAWE (MinisteT of Provincial Affairs): No, Mr. Speaker, despite all our efforts to extract something from Mrs. Plumptre, she still has yet to bloom. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Hermitage: MR. SUlMONS: I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Industrial Development: He indicated to the House a couple of weeks ago that he expected to have a report from the committee studying the 6641

May 21, 1974, Tape 1689, Page 7 -- apb Afternoon feasibility of some industry in the Bay DTEspoir Area. Does the minister have the report yet? When does he expect it? MR. DOODY: No. I have a partial report from them only. There is au environmental study going on also but I do not have that one yet. One without the other would just be misleading. MR. SIMMONS: Can the minister indicate the nature of the recommendations in the report insofar as industry is concerned? MR. DOODY: No, Mr. Speaker, I prefer not to. I would rather present the whole report. As I say, part of it would only be misleading. MR.

SIMMONS: A supplementary: How soon would the minister ezpect to present the full report? AN HON. MEMBER: Tomorrow? MR. DOODY: That is rather difficult to say. The provincial environment part of it will certainly be available within a couple of weeks but I do not know how long the federal environmental studies will take, Sir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, another supplementary: Do I understand that the only hangup in making the report complete and ready for presentation is that part of it which relates to the federal environment people? MR.

DOODY: When the honourable member says the only han11:up is relating to the federal environment he is talking about a rather major part of the whole operation which is the fish plant. The environment Department in Ottawa has a small

section relating to the fisheries and from time to time they get interested in the Province of Newfoundland and this is one of the times. We hope to get the impact of that

section of the Environment Department relating to fisheries so that we can make a judgement on the fish plant's position in Bay D'Espoir. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Leader of the Oppositiion: MR. ROBERTS: I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy: Could he inform the House whether Mr. cabot Martin is still employed 6642

May 21, 1974, Tape 1689, Page 8 -- apb Afternoon as his legal adviser? MR. BARRY: He is, Mr. Speaker. I think the honourable Leader of the Opposition might be referring to an

article in the "Daily News" today referring to - AN HON. MEMBER: Cabot Martin. MR. ROBERTS: Cabot Martin Associates, MR. BARRY: "The committee was spearheaded by Cabot Martin, Director of the Research Firm of Cabot Martin A.-;sociates." I think somebody is using their imagination there, at least to my knowledge. I happened to be speaking to Mr. Martin today and I will just for the record ensure that that is not the case. I have almost no doubt that that is just a misstatement of fact, Mr. Martin did spearhead this committee that carried out the report on ocean science technology.

As a representative of the Department of Mines and Energy, he chaired this committee, in effect an inter-departmental committee to look at thi~ entire matter. I think that this is the work of the imagination of whoever wrote the article. MR. ROBERTS: To put the point on the question, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the honourable gentleman because he quite obviously anticipated what I was going to say. Would the minister look into the matter with a view to ensuring the House that first of all Mr.

Martin's involvement was only in his capacity as a public servant, as an employee of the government and secondly; whether any money was in fact paid to him or to anybody associated with him other than whatever his salary and his appropriate expenses are? I ask that because I have never heard any suggestion that Mr. Cabot Martin before, in this case or in any other case for that matter, but certainly the Assistant Deputy Minister of Finance, Mr. Roland Martin is connected with a research firm and they hooked considerable fees out of the government over the past two or three years.

I want to make sure that is not - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: Yes. The Liquor CoiDmission one. The Auditor General picked that up and there will be a number of others I understand: 6643

May 21, 1974, Tape 1689, Page 9 -- apb Afternoon Roland Martin, Mr. JaJ11es Barnes, Mr. Van Rall , I believe the three of them have fanned a firm and one will find that they have been commissioned by the government. This is why I ask about the Cabot Martin case, Mr. Speaker, simply because it was in the paper. I did not put it in the paper but I read it. I accept the minister's statement but I wonder if he would check into these further facts which he could not be expected to know. If he could ensure us in due course? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Hermitage: MR.

SIMMONS: I would like to direct a question to the (Acting) Minister of Transportation: Some week• ago I had diacussions with the Minister of Transportation concerning the matter of the road at Gaultois. The minister indicated at thet ti.lie that he would be sending an engineer to the aite to expedite matters. To my knowledge this engineer has not been sent yet and I wonder would the (acting) minister undertake- if he should not haw the anawer at hand - to determine what the delay has been in thi• -tter and at what time we could expect to have an engineer at Gaultoia to proceed with this matter? HON.

J.G.ROUSSEAU (Acting)Minister of Tran•p•rtation and Communications): Mr. Speaker, I am not familiar with it but I will undertake to provide the information to the honourable member before the close of tonight's sitting anyway. MR. SIMMONS : A further question to the (Acting) Minister of Transportation: Will he also indicate to the House now or subsequently what the decision has been subsequent to the meeting• of the Gaultois Town Council and I with the minister? What the decision is with respect to the promised ferry MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes. for the Gaultois to Hermitage run? I will undertake that. MOTIONS: MR.

SPEAKER: Motion (2) bill (No. 102): On motion of the honourable the Minister of Justice a bill; "An Act Respecting Public Libraries An Boards To Operate Them." read a first time ordered read a second time presently, ~y leave. MR. SPEAKER: Motion (3) bill (No. 101): 6644

May 21, 1974, Tape 1689, Page 10 -- apb Afternoon On motion of the honourable the ?11.nister of Justice a bill: "An Act Respecting The Award Of An Increase Of Pensions To Or In Respect Of Certain Employees Of The Government Of Newfoundland, Certain Teachers And Certain Employees Of The Broadcasti ng Corporation Of Newfoundland, And To Or In Respect Of Certain Transferred Employees Of The Government And Of The Newfoundland Railway." read a first time ordered read a second time presently, by leave. MR. SPEAKER: Motion (4) bill (No. 77): 6645

J'lay 21, 1974 Tape 1~90 (afternoon) IB-1 On motion of the honourable the Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment a bill, "An Act Respecting M'obile Home Dealers," read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, with the leave of the House: The question has been finished but I think it might be too serious an implication to leave hanging until the House sits again June 6. In response to the honourable Leader of the Opposition's question: I have been speaking to Mr. Martin. There is absolutely no foundation to the - AN HONOURABLE t-'F.'MBER: Which Mr. 'Martin? MR.

BARRY: Mr. Cabot Martin. There is no foundation to the story carried in the''Daily News". It is just an error which can obviously happen and will happen from time to time. Mr. Martin, I understand, has spoken with Mr. Woods and I think some of the remarks were attributed to J'lr. Woods, the manager of the GNR dockyard in St. John's. Mr, Woods has stated that he has been misquoted in some of the remarks that are attributed to him in this statement. This comilittee was an inter-departmental committee, as I have said before. As part of their work they did have meetings with J'lr.

Woods of the CNR dockyard to get his views on the role of the CN dockyard and the potential for expansion of that dockyard and so on and that Mr. Woods, as an expert in the field, saw the potential for this type of work being in Newfoundland. That is the only connection that Mr. Martin has had with the CN dockyard or any of the members of that committee,to my knowledge. Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting Tenders For Puhlic Work.'' HON. W.W.

MARSHALL (MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO): Mr, Speaker, it i~ unfortunate that it is probably so late in the session and perh~ps not as much time will be spent on this bill as it deserves because, in my humble opinion, it is one of the more important pieces of legislation that has come before the Legislature. Let me say first that the bill relates to all departments of government and not just the Department of Public Works because a 6646

May 21, 1974 Tape 1690 Ill-2 nublic work is, as I will indicate as i.•e go on in introducin!!; the hill, defined in a specific manner and many departments - indeed Crown Corporations can carry on pubU c workR. This is a 1110st important piece of legislation. It is felt by some people that the history of our province might have been a little bit different if the spirit and intent of a bill such as this had been complied with for quite a period of time.

There is no need to go back any further than the days when we lost our resnonsiblc government and read the Amurlee Report which was done at that period of time and one will see certain striking things that occurred, certain similarities that occurred in the political life of our country so that sometimes when one is handling the history of the political life of the Island of Newfoundland and the province. sometimes ones hand~ feel a little hit more grimy than the dust that is actually on the hooks themselves.

As far as I can see in connection with tbis bill, this is one of the hills that will go a long way :1,f properly implemented. I have no doubt it will be nropcrly implemented. It will ~o a long way to relieve the evils of patronage that were talked ahout when we dehated for such a long period of time during this session about patronage and election expenses and what have you.

If one has open, public dealings with the public, if public contracts are aw11rded onenly and the people who are in charge of the administration of the country have to explain if less than the lowest tender has heen awarded, then there is going to be much less patronage than there could be otherwise than if it were done behind closed doors. I cannot see ~,hy there can be any objection whatsoever to this particular bill. J cannot see why anyone would vote arainst it and fe£1 that it is not in effect a really good measure.

Because it constantly amazes me to see that we mouth free enterprise in this province ard throughout, yet we are prepared to put the means of production many times in the hands of just a few people. As far as I am concerned, Mr. S~eaker, I think if one were to be consistent, if one cannot make the rules fair for all, if one 6647

May 21, 1974 Tape 1690 IB-3 cannot have open . public tender what open public tender will in part do, then it is just as well,I would rather see the means of production put into the hands of the state and have it a socialistic state. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. One cannot mouth a free enterprise system and at the same time go along and put the means of production, as I say, in the hands of a few people,which has been done sometimes in the past. Now, I have no doubt that this bill is not going to be hailed. It is going to be hailed with a certain amount of cynicism which unfortunately is the way.

I ~!J.ave long _since _despaired of bringing in any particular measure that is not greeted in this particular way in this province. We were so looked at wben we changed the rules with respect to cabinet borrc,wing, This was greete~ with cynicism as well as the other measures which we are bringing in. I have no doubt that this one too will be the harbinger of words of the cynics themselves. In any event, it is a measure that is being brought in and it is a measure that is going to be implemented throughout the government. As a matter of fact, this government has invited tender, regardless of what people may say.

There have been more invitations for tenders since this government got into power than ever before. One has to only look at the "Daily News• and see the calls for public tender. This province is now, as I say, going to codify it and enact it,and anyone can change it later on at their peril. How is it going to be regarded? What examples have we got with respect to the good faith of the government in this matter and how it is greeted? I can think of two specific ones. One very recently with respect to the Power Cosmission even though it did not involve a public work.

I recall that tenders were asked with respect to insurance for the Power Commission. The award was given to the lowest bidder. Lo and behold! There was a great

article in one of our papers - I am not going to name the paper because I have 6648

Hay 21, l'l74 Tape 169'1 Hl-4 named papers before in my time but there arc one or two of them. They can consult their records as well as their conscience. AN _!!ONOURABLE }'EM.HEP: Let them do their own advertising. MR. J:~~ll.SHALL: There was an

article in the oaper to the effect that the award of the contract was given to a firm and then it was inferred tl-><1t this firm had certain ncrsons, good friends of it in the confines of the cabinet. Now, the fact of the matter is that we called open tender. We opened them. We got the lowest J-,id and we awarded it to the lowest bidder and conseouently we got rainerl with scorn,a .s I expect ,.,e will get rained with scorn with respect to this hill itself.

So, J do not think that even thouph there arp actions, as I say, which are a fatalistic attitude perhaps,hut I despair that we are goin!? to get any credit for that which we are doing. The same way with the license nlates last vear. We awarded it to the lowest bidder. We heard gre~t calls from the Director of this Safety Council her!" in Newfoundland to the effect that there was goinp to he ooen carnage on the highroads. We gave the award to a contract, J thinl< it was about one-t'l-:ird that of the other hidder, the second highest bidder.

Yet, we were told that there were going to he wrecks or the highroad as a result of our giving out this particular contract, that there were going to be great dangers because the license nlates were not illuminated. I think if one consults the record, one will see that is not true. Lo and behold: The critics do not seem to he called to account for their previous statements. So, with troge few introductory words, I will go to the bill itself if I can find it here. Here we are. Bill number 67. Mr. Speaker, this hill I rniii:ht say is modeled somewhat on the Federal Puhlic Works Act.

Prior to the enactment of this bill, there was no provision with respect to the callini: of tenders for public works in the province. Now, a public work in this sense meang construction, extension, enlargement, repair or maintenance of any buildings or structures, roads, bridges, wharves, docks or piers on land. That is what the public works relate to. 6649

May 21, 1974 Tape 1690 IB-5 T.Tnder the Public Works Act, before our Department of Public Works Act there was no provision with respect to the calling of nublic tenders. This particular act,by section (3) ,provides as a matter of law that where a public work is to be executed under direction of any department of government, not just the Department of Public Works but any department of government, the minister in charge of that department shall invite public tenders for the execution c-f public worlrs, except in five cases.

These cases are: Where the publ:I c work is one of a pressing emergency in which the delay would be injurious to the public interest. This is exactly the same as the federal government has under section (36) (

a) of the Public Works Acts of the Federal Government. One has got to have a provision like that. For example, something could happen in a hospital where it is absolutely necessary to p,et work done and it may be a pressing emergency, so we cannot afford the time to call tenders. It would have to be one of pressing emergency, as I say. Then again, one does not call public tenders under this act,the same as they do federally, they exempt it federally, if that one could be more expeditiously and economically executed by employees of the department concerned.

In other words, if those people they have employed can carry out the work in a more economical fashion, logically one should not have to call tenders and p,ive it to somebody else. Number (3) is not in the federal act because the federal government is not in the habit of building highroads. It is in the habit of providing funds for and directing where highroads are to be built, as I think we all know. It does not actually get into the building of highroads themselves. We have to provide for one exception in that case. Now, I want it to be understood that it is not all highroads.

In contracts for highroads public tenders have to be called - where there is an extension of an existing highway contract at the same unit price as that provided in the highway contract of which it constitutes an extension. Now, for example, 6650

May 21, 1974 Tape 1690 IB-6 by way of explanation, if a contract were called to build a highroad, if tenders were called and a contract were awarded to build say twenty miles of road and it were found that it were necessary to pave an extra two or three where they have the naving equipment down there, the department can authorize the extension of that highway contract at the same tmit price as was originally bid. So, in effect it is not really an exception because the price is governed by a previous tender called.

The fourth exemption is exactly the same as that contained in section (76) of the Federal Public Works Act. One does not have to call public tenders where the public work is less than $15,nnn. It appears to the minister in view of the nature of the public work that it is not advisable to invite tenders. Now, those are the two conditions. Less than $15,000. In other words. smaller contracts and it appears to the minister that it is not advisable to invite tenders. This is exactly the same as in the federal act and is one obviously which is necessary because there are many smaller type of contracts.

The final exception as to where one will not h~ve to call public works is if the public work be nf a specific public work to be executed by a Crown Corporation. Now I might state that under the federal act one is not required to call tenders to my knowledge for Crown Corporations. It would depend upon the specific act of the Crown Corporation itself. Generally speaking, coroorations like Air Canada and Canadian National Railway are not guided by the provisions of the Public Works Act. We have decided that our Crown Corporations will be governed by 1 t. So, in other words, it is stronger than the federal act.

There may occur a situation because of the nature of Crown Corporations where there is a specific worlr which has to he executed by a Crown Corporation. If that be authorized r.y cahinet to be awar~cd without tenders, it can so be but there arc safe~uards with respect to it as I will show when I get to the next section. 6651

May 21, 1974 Tape 1690 So, section (3), the main section,then says that we have to call public tenders for contracts with respect to public works except in five separate situations, three of them ~mich are the same as the federal Public Works Act. The fourth is an extension to the highway contracts and the fifth one itself is with resT1ect to Crown Corporations which in effect is not really an exception,when we compare it to the federal act,hut makes the provision broader. Now, section (4) says how tenders are to be called.

When tenders are invited under section (3) which will be in most material cases for public works, the minister inviting or causing the tenders to be invited - if he does not, I am sorry - if under section (3) it appears to the minister inviting tenders not to be expedient to let the contract for the execution of the public work to the lowest bidder, he shall obtain the authority of cabinet before rejecting the lowest tender. Now, the point is this, public tender does not necessarily mean that they always award to the lowest tender.

No minister hy himself can decide to award it to other than the lowest tender before he comes to cabinet and gets the approval of the cabinet to accept other than the 1owest tender. This IB-7 may be necessary from time to time because of the nature of the work and the nature of the person bidding. What happens then? One might turn around and say, "Ah,ha!

So, you can do it in cabinet and nobody will know about it." That is not so. l'nder subsection (2) the Minister of Public Works within fifteen days from the opening of the session will table in the House of Assembly a list of specific public works executed by Crown Corporations since the last preceding session and affected for the snecific purpose authorized under the exception and list all contracts let to persons other than those who made the lowest bid. So, in other words, it cannot be done in secret. The whole idea of the thing is the publi<' must be informed if other 6652

May 21, 1974 Tape lli90 than the lowest tender has been given. Before,they never did. Before,many times other than the lowest tender was given and nobody ever had to ,iustify it. In this particular case there may be logical reasons not to give it to the lowest tender. If one does, the government has to come and inform the puhlic, through th~ House of Assemhly, whirh ones were given to other than the lowest tender and then presumably will have to stand on its feet and .iustify Hs artions. As I say, there may be justifiable reason.

Maybe the company who responds to the bid cannot obtain a bid bond for instance, a necessary bid bond in order. to give the government some security that the work will he carried out. There are a host of reasonable reasons. If any !?ovcrnment come into the House of Assembly IB-8 and inform the public that it awarded to any other than the lowest tender anti cannot give a good answer to it, I think it wiJ 1 be very loath to do so unless it has a very real reason to do it.

Also under section (5) of the act - this is very important-"All tenders received pursuant to the provisions of this act shall be opened at a time or place to be specified in the pub] ic advertisement for callinp: of such tenders." So, in other worcls, this is a true act then for the public calling of tenders, to be puhliclv opened, to he awarded to the lowest bidder in most cases. Jf it be not awarded to the lowest bidder, the House of Assembly is to be informed and reasons will obviously have to be p:iven.

Of course if a government continue to give spurious reasons with respect to it, it has to account to the people with respect to same. There are exceptions there,it is true but these exceptions are similar to that in the Federal J!ublic Works Act and are reasonable exceptions. So, that this, Mr, Speaker, is the gist of the bill ancl the opening remarks with respect to same. We will await and see whatever co111111ents are made. ~- ROllEPTS: Well, Mr. Speaker, if I may sav a few words relevant to the second readin~ of this bill: Let me begin by sayin~ that my 6653

May 21, 1974 Tape 16QO !'6-9 collea~ues and I support the bill and indeed do so with consi~erable pleasure and considerable enthusiasm. The honourable member for St. John's East spoke of the fact that there may be some who will greet this bill with cynicism. l share that view. There will be some who will greet this bill with cynicism. I hope that my colleagues and I are not among those who weJ:e regarded by the honourable gentleman as being in that light. If he so regard us, I assure him he is wr·ong. I think that this is the sort of legislation, Mr. Speaker, which should be in effect in this province.

I think the principle of this bill is one which everybody should wholeheartedl y support, a principle \)hich every government and every member of the Rouse should try to put into effect. 665 4 ,. ,,

May 21, 1974. Tape 1691 (Afternoon) RH - 1 Now the minister in my view quite properly avoided the tyPe of speech which could have been made in introducing this bill. Equally I propose to avoid the type of speech which could equally properly be made in reply to that type of speech. I do not think there is much point in going over what may or may not have gone on in the past. If any honourable gentlemen wish to try it,they of course are at liberty to do so. It would be a most interesting debate and I think it would go on for some time and be of great interest.

I know that my colleagues would join in with gusto and enthusiasm. My concern, Sir, is with what happens in the future. I think that this, although let me say that during the period of which I was a member of the cabinet and thus responsible in the political sense for actions of the government, I am not aware of anything b~ing let in contradiction to what will be in effect when this act is enforced.

I do not know what may have gone on twenty years ago or one hundred and twenty years ago but indeed during the period in which I was a minister and I think going back to 1966 when such gentlemen as the present Minister of Justice entered the cabinet•­ the present Minister of Municipal Affairs entered the cabinet in 1964 - I know that they would not be party to any such things. Indeed I sometimes think that it is part of the political myth of Newfoundland. Be that as it may, if we look to the future, Sir, this bill may very well be a substantial step forward.

I believe the government bring it in in this light, I think the minister is quite genuine and I believe he has been successful in carrying his colleagues and his points, getting them to agree with his approach. The cynics, and there will be cynics in Newfoundland, Sir, there will be cynics everywhere about this type of legislation, The answer to the cynics is in the results.

If in a year or two or three it is seen that this bill works and not only that it works, that it is seen to work and that its purpose is being carried into action,then I think the cynics will get their answer and they will get it the only way they can. 6655

May 21, 1974 . Tape 1691 (Afternoon) RH - 2 The only other type of an11Wer that can be given is tht: back .. and forth,"No you did not, yes you did" type of debate. 'We have seen a great deal of it in the House this session. We will see more in years to come. I have no doubt we have seen ~uch in years past,but it is remarkably pointless.

Now I can make one or two suggestions which I think are relevant to the bill and I put them forward in c~~ection with the principle and I put them forward in the hope that the lllinister will consider them and if they cannot be amended at c0111Dittee stage then perhaps another year because I think this bill could be improved. The first point I would make is one which I am not sure can be put into legislation, Mr. Speaker, but it ahould be noted that this bill does not effect so-called services, contracts for services.

If we all agree that we should end improper patronage in this Province and I think we would all agree on that, Hr, Speake£ ·; then let it be noted that there can be improper patronage in the services area just as much as in the public worka area. This bill deals only with concrete things, with things that are real, that are tangible. There is quite a lengthy definition clause in section (2). It goes'on at some length in words that lawyers do but all it says merely is that a public work is something tangible, some­ thing that is real as appos~ :· to a contract for services.

When Your Honour realizes that contracts for services represent a large part of the expenditure of this government or any government then I think Your Honour will agree that there it is not a loophole in the bill but it is a further area which must be dealt with, such areas of service as tenders for snow-clearing operations, as tenders for maintenance operations, for painting.

These •re clearly within ·­ the areas '. that as I read the act and I realize that the words "repair, maintenance, or improvement of any structure," that that includes a road, I think that these contracts for services may be without t"haf definition. The minister might apeak to that point. 6656

May 21, 1974. Tape 1691 (Afternoon) RH - 3 There is a further class of services, Mr. Speaker, which is not within this definition no matter how broadly it may be interpreted. That is the contract for personal services in the sense of architects or lawyers or public relations firms or what have you. These are all areas where the government enters into contracts. These are areas where sometimes there , is the char~e that there is improper patronage. These are areas which cannot be dealt with in this bill. I am not sure, quite candidly, Sir, how to deal with them.

I am not sure it is possible to say that the way you hire architects is a matter of the lowest bid. When you get into such things as architects or people who design slide presentations, you are into an area where judgment and skiil is very important and where it is necessary for the minister or the cabinet collectively to make a jud~ent as to whether a certain individual is the right man to design· a building or not.

His price may be greater than somebody else but who is to say that the Province is not getting better value,because the one fact which must remain throYgh­ out all of the tender process is that the cheapest is not necessarily the best. I can remember, Sir, more years ago than I care to remember, down at Ayres here on Water Street, the store that is now being torn down to allow Atlantic Place to go up there, there was a sign in the menswear department, a cardboard sign but it always stuck with me, a motto on it quoting John Ruskin, the English poet. The honourable Minister of Justice . remembers it.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Well, he was a number of other things, but SAS is perhaps a good generic discription. The sign, Sk always stuck with me. It quoted Professor Ruskin, who was a poet at Oxford at the time I believe, as saying that there is hardly anything in this world which somebody cannot make a little cheaper and those people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. 6657

Hay 21, 1974. Tape 1691 (Afternoon) RH - 4 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: "The sea is calm tonight," that was Mathew Arnold,by Knowledge of Victorian Poetry,Limited. The fact remains that the principle in those words by Ruskin is one which must be accepted and one which is reflected in this act. Price alone is not to be determined, what counts is value.

When you come to hiring, leavinP, aside entirely the question of public works, tanP,ible thinP,s, when you come to hiring people, when you come to hiring a lawyer or an architect or a public relations consultant then you must put in that question of who is best qualified, This bill will not deal with it. Anybody who thinks that it is the end of that area of patronage is sadly mistaken-- Point (1). Point (2), Sir, is that this bill is not comprehensive enough. First of all it does not deal with sub-tenders, as I read it.

Again I am subject to direction by members of the bar but it does not cover the situation, for example, where a contract is called, a contract to build a highroad is advertised and in come bids from a dozen firms, the lowest bidder, assuming it is some fellow who is not just a wheelbarrow operator but the lowest acceptable bidder gets the contract and every­ think is prim and proper. What can be done with sub-tenders? There is a large potential area of patronage there, improper patronage that could affect the public.

It is all very well to say that there is a fixed price for the whole thing and who cares whether the fellow who supplies the machines gets more than he should or whether the fellow who supplies the asphalt gets more than he should or whether the fellow supplies the trucks gets more than he should. Sir, that is not all of it because a firm price is seldom a firm price when all is said and done.

When we come to highways contracts, we talk of unit prices and most highways contracts, Your Honour, I do not know if Your Honour is familiar with them, I am not familiar in detail I am in outlinP, most highways contracts are unit prices. The contractor 6658

May 21, 1974. Tape 1691 (Afternoon) RH - 5 says, "I will provide fill for "x" dollars a yard." The highways department have an engineer on the job and he measures the number of yards of fill that go in and the number of cubic feet of asphalt or every measure of asphalt that goes down,and that is the way the final price is computed. There is an area there that should be looked into. My fertile mind maybe overly fertile but there will be people who try to beat this act .

This act, Sir, is not concerned at a government or at individuals or firms who are trying to play the game anymore than the conflict of interest legislation is not aimed at members of the House of Assembly or members of the public service who are interested in playing the game. The purpose of this legislation and the need for it is for people who try to beat it. That is the only reason we have it. We must try to guard against these things.

Sir , another point I would bring up is the matter of the situation we have seen in Corner Brook where there were tenders called for the public building, the Regional Colle11:e there. The "Daily News" misquoted me by saying that I said there were no tenders called. Well there were tenders called. I understand three firms bid on it. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. }!R. ROBERTS : Well, right, the Minister of Public Works has taken my argument. Proposals were called and the proposals submitted by Western Realties, I think is the name of the firm, were accepted. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Ah!

Right, I am not. The minister if he want to take it as a criticism,is taking it in a manner I do not intend it. What I am saying is that proposals were called. That sort of procedure as I understand it would not be barred by this act. It is perfectly in accordance with this act. Yet, Sir, there is nobody in this world today who can say to the House or anybody else what it will cost to build the Regional College at Corner Brook. ~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Oh: The honourable gentleman says it does not matter. 6659

May 21, 1974. Tape 1691 (Night) RH - 6 The honourable gentleman says it does not matter because we have a rental agreement. I say to him, Sir, that the rental agreement is not firm and fixed. Oh, no, Sir, because the government obligation to rent is there and there may even be a price set per square foot. Sir, what does the government get for that? The government may get a cardboard shell or it may get a brick and masonary building. Sir, the point of the Corner Brook Regional College is that it is open, the system is open to abuse. I am not saying that that particular one is being abused.

I bring it up merely because it is the most recent example but I am saying that the procedure followed with respect to the Corner Brook College falls within the procedure laid down by this act as I understand it. Yet, Sir, if one want to jigger and poke and have tomfoolery arounc and about, the Corner Brook Public College could be that way. Maybe it will be. Maybe it will not be but the possibility is there. Furthermore, Sir, if the minister bring up another point, I am not sure, again I defer to the honourable gentleman from St.

John's East and I know he is interested in this, I know he has put a lot of work into this particular bill. I think he should be congratulated for it. I am not sure as I read this bill that it covers rental proposals. If Your Honour wanted to rip off several million dollars, let me tell honourable gentlemen what Your Honour could do. Your Honour could commission a study as to what should be done to provide the government with space. This building is bursting at the seams and everybody knows we need more space. Members of the House need more space. Your Honour's staff need more space.

I suppose every minister, once a week, rings up the Deputy Minister of Public Works, Mr. Ralph,and he says, "Mr. Ralph, I need more space for rny staff." There are several ministers who do not have offices in this building, physically, and that is very inconvenient for them. The gentle­ man from Placentia West has no office in this building. His department has moved elsewhere. The gentleman from Harbour Main, the Junior Member 6660

May 21, 1974. Tape 1691 (Night) RH - 7 for Harbour Main has no office - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: He has an office in the building? No, he has no office in the building. That is an inconvenience, Mr. Speaker. We are terribly short of space. So let us suppose we conunission a study and the study recommends that, let us just say for example that we expand this building or we build one across the way or we build one next door to it, all very sensible solutions but instead we do not do that, Sir.

Supposing we fall in league with a great, big, reputable real estate firm, say, for example, an English firm based in Montreal, an English owned firm, ~e make a deal to rent one hundred or two hundred thousand square feet from them. That is not barred by this act. Yet if that were to happen, Sir, that could be a clear case of patronage. It could be, Supposing a man who worked in the innermost circles of the government left the government service and went to work for a big firm based in Montreal, owned by English interests which wants to rent a couple of hundred thousand square feet from the government.

It is a purely hypothetical situation, Sir, My fertile mind is at work again. That could be an abuse,and it is not barred by this act, I bring it up only because I believe that the Minister without Portfolio,and he and I have had our differences again and doubtless will in the future, I know he is quite 11:enuinely trying to end what may very well have been abuses in this Province in the past. Certainly people believe there have been abuses. They may very well have reason for that belief, I do not know, I just do not know. What has gone on in the past has gone on. What concerns me is what will go on.

It is true the definition clause does say, "By purchase, lease or otherwise," but does it cover the rental situation? I am not sure. I am not sure, I would like the minister to speak to that point and if not adequately covered perhaps we could have the draftsman back at it or have amendments next year. There are those possibilities. 6661

May 21, 1974. Tape 1691 (night) RH - 8 The other comments I have, Sir, are relating to Section (3). I think they should be made public under Section (4), Sir, let me go back, under Section (4) there are a number of things required. Under

Section 4 (1), a minister who accepts other than lowest tender bid has to report it to the Minister of Public Works and Services. Under Section (2), the Minister of Public Works and Services has to make public that list within fifteen days. I think I read the act correctly on that point. Also under subsection (2) of Section (4), Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Public Works has to table here in this House a list of those effected by

Section (

e) of (3). So he has to table two lists. Any list where the bid that has been accepted is not the lowest bid,he has to give his reasons for it. As the minister says,if the reasons are spurious quickly there will be action taken. Secondly, he has to table a list of those contracts that are not within the purview of the act and are not within the purview of the act by virtue of the operation of Subsection (

e) of Section (3). Now I suggest that we should go a step further and that the minister should add a third category of projects to the list which should be tabled . Those are those projects which are done under

Section (a), (b), (c), and (

d) of Section (3). In other words, there should be a list. There might only be one or two in a year. There might be none where no contract has been called publicly, no tenders have been called publicly because there is a matter of pressing emergency in which any delay would be injurious to the public interest. There we are. There should be a list of areas where the public work can be more expedi.tiously and economically executed by the employees of the department concerned and 9imiliarly (

c) the public -·work is an extensio n of the highway, the unit price concept, and then (

d) where the work is less than $15,000. Even in those less expensive ones where it appears to the minister to be advisable not to call public tenders. 6662

May 21, 1974. Tape 1691 (Night) RH - 9 Now I see no reason why the reporting provisions of Section (4) should not apply to all of the contracts that are excluded from public tenders by virtue of Section (3). I quite agree, Mr. Speaker, that there are some contracts which do not need to be publicly tendered for and that that category of contract continue to exist without doing harm to the basic principle. Surely, Sir, there is no reason why they should not all be tabled here in the House, made public so that people can read and judge.

The fact that the ministry in drafting Section (4) have put in provision for reporting some of those contracts,I think is proof enough that they should all be, it is proof enough that the nrinciple is a sound one. There may be some reason that has escaped me. There may well be some reason that : has escaped me but if so I invite the minister to tell us that, ~f not,I should be happy if he were to assure us that Section (4) will be amended so that any contract provided for under the exceptions in Section (3) shall be listed and that list shall be tabled here in this House. A further small point on (

c) of (3) is that I would suggest to the minister that the extension be limited to a percentage of the existing highway contract because one would not want to see a situation where a contract is called, say for one mile of road and the lowest bidder gets it and everything is fine and then tha~ contract is extended for an extra, say 203 miles of road. It is an absurd situation perhaps but it could happen. I think the principle of the bill is sufficiently good but it should be implemented and implemented in that respect.

It would be easy to do,to say something like, "provided that the extension, the price, the cost of the extensions will not amount to more than, say twenty per cent of the original cost of the contract,in total. Sir, this is an important point because.as the Auditor General has told us in his most recent report, the one for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1973 ~ looking at page 72. 1t shows that out of thirty capital projects in the Department of Highways there were no less than fourteen, 6663

May 21, 1974. Tape 1691 (Night) RR - 10 that is nearly one half, that either had no public tenders or formal contracts , there were eight in that category or that had contracts but no public tenders. So, an importan ,t point and it goes on. "Of the t hirty contracts involved and the thirty capital projects that totalled $12.4 milli.on . 6664 . .

May 21, 1974 Tape no, 1692 Page 1 - MW the Auditor General tells us; By November 30 last, five or six montns ago, the overruns of the original contract amounts on eighteen of those thirty projects amounted to about $5,5 million. This is a large area. It is not just a matter of laying fifty miles of road or twenty miles of road or five miles of pavement and adding on half a mile at the end, The Auditor General tells us that there is an overrun on eighteen of the thirty projects of $5.4 million, The total expenditure was only $12,4 million. He mentions a number of special ones or of individual cases.

Some of them were done in the days of the lamented previous administration, September 1971. A contract valued at $1.046 million was awarded to reconstruct eight miles of road from Hawkes Bay to Port Saunders, the Northern Peninsula Road, It was federal/provincial money. The contractor was paid $1.4 million, an overrun of $350,000 in round numbers. There was no pavement. It had to be rebuilt before it could be paved. It was rebuilt and it subsequently has been paved, The honourable gentleman would be welcome to come down and drive on it. It is a very substantial sum of money, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

ROBERTS: Other overruns were noted by the Auditor General in that section. He goes on from there into money being spent without proper legislative authority but that ia a different matter, If we are ever allowed to debate the Report of the Auditor General, we will be able to get into that, The point I make, Sir, with reference to

Section 3(

c) is that as iE now stands it will not in itself prevent the abuses which have occured from time to time under both administrations. I am not seeking to lay blame on a partisan basis. I approach this in a nonpartisan sense. Now having said that, Mr, Speaker, I think the bill is a valiant attempt - Your Honour there are twelve of us in the llouse, including Your Hnnour. There are four on this side and seven on the other side. I really think it is important enough that there should be some government supporters here. We are doing our share. There are half of us here. There are thirteen Your Honour, including Your Honour. 6005

May 21, 1974 Tape no. 1692 Page 2 There are now fourteen, the gentleman from Trinity North has joined us briefly. The gentleman from Trinity South has returned. Sir, I think it is a good bill. I think it is a bill which should win the support of every member and for our part, we will support it. The principle is a sound one. It is one which perhaps should have been put into effect ten years ago, fifty years ago, one hundred and sixty-two years ago but ia now being put into effect; so full marks for that. I think the bill can be improved.

The suggestions which I put foward, I have put forward in a constructive and positive way. Sir, I would invite the minister to deal with thea in an equally constructive and positive way. I believe he will. I think the minister regards this as being a matter above cheap, petty politics. He plays it from time to time. I play it from time to time. It is part of the way that the House of Assembly, the legislative system works. I think it is a good bill, Sir. I think it is one which should come into force, should come into effect. As I said just a few minutes ago, the minister aays at times he is almost in dispair.

I can appreciate that. Every minister does from time to time. He says that people will greet ~t with cynic-ism. Sir, I do not greet it with cynicism. I greet it as a welcome step forward. I shall wait and see what comes of it. I shall suspend judgment. If the intentions of the bill are carried into force by actions, then I shall be the first to hail it. It could be a substantial step forward. MR. CARTER: I would like to add my support to this bill. I feel that it would be a step in the right direction.

Of course, I noticed that,towards the end of the bill, the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council may make such regulations asare deemed necessary. Therefore, the teeth of the bill are going to be in the regulations that are made to enforce it. I would like to sound a few warning notes as to what could happen if wise regulations are not put together. One of the pitfalls that could occur in my view that would negate the spirit of this bill is for public tenders to be called but for there to be over-specification. Now to give an eX8lllple: Supposing 6666

May 21, 1974 Tape no. 1692 Page 3 some govertU11ent department wished to purchase some vast number of stapling machines, if these stapling machines are minutely described then obviously no more than one person or one company can tender on these and therefore the spirit of the regulations and of the legislatio~ are nullified. The other, of course, is to watch out for change orders.

Some contract could be awarded on public tenders but if there were a change made in the agreement half way through the course of construction or the course of supplying some goods or services, then obviously this change would have to be negotiated and the negotiation itself is not subject to public tender and therefore the total cost could be far, far beyond the initial figure. The other thing is that a small job, something under $15,000, could by change become a much larger job. What was properly awarded without tender initially, might swell to a very large job that should have been called for public tender.

The other problem, of course, is that a job might be of the order of $30,000 or $40,000 and could ~e split into two or three portions, neither of which under these regulations would be required for public tender. Then, of course, the Leader of the Opposition mentioned the Corner Brook Junior College, Now although proposals were called for there, it is similar in effect to a project management situation, whereby a huge job goes for public tender, it is true, but the job itself is so large that very few companies are able to tender on it. Therefore, I think this works against the spirit of this legislation.

Now once the project management company has the job, they are under no obligation to call public tenders. They do the job as they see fit. I would just like to sound that warning note. I would certainly echo the other speakers in hoping that the tenders would not only be opened in public but could be opened in a very public place, I would suggest the foyer of the Confederation Building,at a time to be advertised. The Leader of the Opposition made some good points. He certainly supports the principle of this bill. He does not w~t to talk about the past. MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible). 6661

May 21, 1974 Tape no. 1692 Page 4 MR. CARTER: He does1 He does not wish to discuss the dimensions of the previous trough. However, I - MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible). MR. CARTER: If he should wish to speak further on this bill or in second reading to discuss the rrough, I should be more than happy to - MR. ROBERTS: MR. CARTER: (Inaudible). I doubt that. He called for disclosure on 3 (a),(b),(c), (

d) and (e). I certainly concur in that. I think that if jobs have been awarded, not by public tender under this bill, that those jobs that were awarded, the details. should be tabled and certainly should be made public. The honourable gentleman misquoted Ruskin. However, I will accept his misquotation in the interests of brevity. The original quotation is quite long. I support this bill. I will certainly be looking out for the regulations that will be made under it, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. MR. ROUSSEAU: I would like to say a few words, Mr. Speaker, if I may.

First of all I would like to just talk about the Junior College in Corner Brook or the regional college or what have you or whichever is the proper name. The other morning when it was brought up I had a meeting with the Status of Women and I did not get in until the question had arisen because of a little

article in the paper. It was a misunderstanding between the reporters. I did suggest that it was an official from the Minister of Justice's office and not the Minister of Justice. We talked about that, the reporter who was responsible, and I think there might have been a misunderstanding. I would just like to go over, if I may, just for the public record,the procedure on the tender at the junior college. What we did is that we publicly advertised in this Province and throughout the Mainland for proposals for anybody who wanted to build the junior college and rent it to the government.

As a result of our advertising, we received thirteen or fourteen (I forget. I think it was thirteen or it could have been fourteen but it could have been thirteen.) indications of interest. 6668

May 21, 1974 Tape no. 1692 Page In the meantime, together with Memorial University, the Department of Public Works and the Department of Education to a certain extent but mostly the Department of Public Works and the Memorial University staff got together and decided on what they wanted for a junior college. This information was included in a form that was almost identical to the federal form which is done under similar circumstances, the normal form, the federal proposal form . Now we recognize, Sir, that this was not a tender.

The intention was (This was written to each of the persons involved) 5 that the proposal would be tightened up when we found out the lowest proposal or the best proposal,would be tightened up into a contractual type tender. This could not be done on the basis of the information we had as a result of the proposal. In the time allotted, which I believe was six weeks, if I recall correctly, there were only three proposals submitted, Three Newfoundland firms only submitted the ptoposals.

Now we had a variance and we were looking at mostly the rental rates, of course, for the building and how it would revert to government and at what costs over various periods of time at five, fifteen or thirty years or what have you.

Because we wanted to be certain that we were comparing apples with apples with apples or oranges with oranges with oranges so that we were looking at basically the same three proposals, the Department of Public Works and Services retained the reputable consulting firm of Shawmont Engineering, which is the two previous firms of Shawinigan Falls Engineering and Montreal Engineering.which are two reputable firms.

Weasked them to go over completely the three proposals , to interview the universit¥ to make sure that what they had asked for was in there and to interview each of the three proposers to make sure that they completely understood the terms of the proposal. As a result of their interviews, which I think took two or three weeks and so on, Shawmont submitted a report to government and indeed suggested that the proposals were as they were, that the amount quoted by the low tender was indeed the low amount and 6669

May 21. 1974 Tape no. 1692 Page 6 was not subject to any changes or any variances and ao on of hidden costs that we would not know about until after the regional college was completed and we moved into it. On the basis of the Shawmont Report, which compared the three proposals and assured the department that they were comparing apples with apples with apples and the low proposal was with Western . . Realties, then this one was accepted by government. At that point in time the Memorial University wanted some changes made.

There were not enough gas distributors in the labs,for example, There were other minor changes, With the university we got togetheL There were some additions and some subtractions, minor ones, I think, about $100,000 or so total. The thing was tightened up. We have not yet signed the lease with the junior college.

That is still being negotiated between us, the university and the proposers, Western Realties, Last week we had an official of the department and an official of the Department of Justice go up to try and finalize that part of the lease which involved the land, some eighteen point three acres which would be involved for the university. I am sure that while the Hon. Leader of the Opposition mentioned there could be - I did not read him as saying there w~ but certainly in any such proposal or any contract, of course, it is always open to some abuses. Certainly it is al110st impossible to get away from that.

They are open for that but that does not mean they occur . I wanted to put that on the public record as to the way it was done. I think this clears up the record. As I said, I was sorry I was not here when the item came up before. I think the suggestion of this procedure is up-and-up. There is no attempt to mislead the people of the university. There is no attempt to mislead the people of Corner Brook nor Western Newfoundland nor the Province nor the Opposition, The Report of Shawmont indicated that indeed the Western Realty proposal was the best in terms of cost to government.

On that basis it was accepted, The bill is before us now. It is not everything perhaps that a lot of people would want it to be but I think most people would 6670

May 21, 1974 Tape no. 1692 Page 7 agree that it is a step foward and certainly we will be look at it. If it be not enough to deter those things that it is meant to deter then certainly amendments or changes shall have to be brought in and the bill shall have to be changed to react to changing conditions as they exist in the province from time to time. I support the bill. I feel that it is a step forward. I feel that it is incumbent on a minister, if any but the lower standard is given to get the concurrence of his colleagues.

I accept the responsibility as long as I am Minister of Public Works and Services to table the contracts that are given without tender or other than the lowest tender. Certainly I abide by the spirit of the act and for my

part I support it and I welcome it as an advancement in the work that has to be done by the government out of the public purse of this province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAK.ER: debate. MR. MARSHALL: If the honourable minister speaks now he closes the Just a few remarks, Mr. Speaker, in relation to what the Hon. Leader of the Opposition said, It is not presumed that one can - I suppose if any one could draft bills that were completely and absolutely full-proof, one would be really doing something. I do not think one can.

Insofar as human drafting can do it, I think that this bill really covers a situation although, of course, it is always open to improvement and will be reviewed from time to time. Mr, Speaker, with respect to services, the services with respect to painting and snow clearing and that, I believe they are covered by the definition of the

section itself. If it were painting obviously there has to be snow clearing with respect to real estate, With respect to personal services, I think everybody will agree that this is a very hard area to cover, extremely hard. The terms of this bill have been forged out over a fair period of time with ne&otiations with various civil servants to make sure that it was something that was 6671

May 21. 1974 Tape no. 1692 Bage 8 livable, in other words, to try to get some balance between necessity and expediency on the part of the civil service. Personal services are very hard things for which to nrovide the callinR of nublic tender because it is very hard to define in certain cases the nature and quality of the services themselves.

With respect to subtenders, this government has always been very concerned about this but it must be remembered that with respect to the subtenderers that it is the businessman himself, when he has a principal contract, there comes in a question as to how far one can lean into the business of other people. With respect to rentals, this was considered very, very carefully by the government and it becomes impractical to call tenders for every type of straight rental that one has.

Every time one wants to rent a building, I aean there may be only one building on Water Street or there may be only one building on Elizabeth Drive in Gander or what have you where you are renting but it is covered to this extent that it covers buildings that are being leased for the purposes of subsequent acquisition by the government 1-tself. In that case it is as strong as it possibly can be, although if one could get a workable type of definition with respect to rentals it would probably be preferable.

The expansion of the list with respect to the tabling of things of results in the Rouse of Assembly; We have to table contracts of Crown Corporations which are exempted from the act; we have to table as well any contracts which were awarded to other than the lowest tender. With respect to tabling, as the Leader of the Opposition said, (a), (b), (

c) and (

d) of

Section 3, in certain instances this obviously becomes impractical. For instance one can have public works of some fifty dollars and very small works and it would be too voluminous really to be practical in itself. One can also table t}le public works 66-72

May 21, 1974 Tape no . 1692 Page 9 that have been or they can be more expeditiously and economically executed by employees of the department but one would have t o do an analysis of all the 1Jork done by e ve r y department . To that extent it would be impractical. Perhaps with respect to public works where there is a pressing emergency, perhaps t his should be changed. We will look into it certainly in the future. The ot her one th.ere is e.xtension of contracts 667 3

May 21, 1974 Tape No. 1693 NM - 1 and I think you know that that would have to stand the test of reasoning. For instance one could not give a contract to pave a twenty mile road and extend it more than the twenty miles itself. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR,_~RSHAL~~ No, it is not completely specific but in these cases we have to be I think aware of the necessity for a certain amount of flexibility with respect to - you know if one said ten per cent one could possibly get the situation where twelve per cent has to go so if the - MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible, MR.

MARSHALL: Well perhaps we should take a look at that in the future, As I say, with respect to it, perhaps we should take a look at that in the future and get some outside acceptable limit. MR. ROBERTS: Could we llllve a list of the specifications tabled? MR. MARSHALL I think that could be done but before agreeing to an amendment, as I think the Leader of the Opposition will concur,with the Civil Service in existence and having to run the gauntlet with respect to getting something that is drafted which is acceptable to them,I would prefer to be able to discuss it with the Civil Service thoroughly.

Perhaps we will bring it in at the next session. MR. ROBERTS: I do believe that the ministers-in the House rule. MR. MARSIIALL : They do rule but they have to rule with a certain amount of reasonableness. As I say,it is certainly a very good suggestion and one which the government will certainly consider but I do not foresee that we will be able to do it before we get to committee stage. However it will be taken into consideration and discussed. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. MARSHALL: Well there were other than that in the Auditor General's Report as the honourable Leader of the Opposition indicated.

I am trying to assume a very uncharacteristic role of being nonpartisan so I will not 6674

May 21, 1974 Tape No. 1693 NM - 2 go into an analysis of the Auditor General's Report and which is applicable to which. Now the only other co11m1ent that I have to make is with respect to the member for St. John's North who I must confess when he was speaking for a moment I did not realize whether, for a moment I could shut my eyes and listen to the Leader of the Opposition and feel he was on our side and for one or two words of the member for St. John's North, if one shut one's eyes one would almost feel he was in the opposition. ~. !_OBERTS: He is, is he not? '-!R.

MARSHALL: I know he is a great supporter of the government. The only 'thinJ!; I can say with respect to - there is one thing he said that the teeth of the bill is in the regulations. He did not really or I believe he overlooked the final phrase of it.

"The Lieutenant-Governor in Council may make such regulations as it deems necessary or expedient to ensure the carrying out of provisions of this act." Now that this is in every other bill but it goes on to say, "According to the bearer," that is the true intent and meaning, "to provide for the efficiencies therein.'' So there is no way that the true intent of this act can be changed by regulation and that is a provision that is in practically every bill of this nature. ~r.

Speaker, as I say,I have much pleasure in moving second reacing of this bill nnd I would assure Your Honour and members of this House that the govern~ent fully intends in this bill above all bills to see that it is implemented and implemented with its true intent and S!'irit. On ~otion a Bill, "An Act Respecting Tenders For Public Works," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House nresently. ~otion second reading of a Bill, "An Act Respecting Certain Building Supplies. " 'IR. 1<ARSRALL: This again, ~r. Speaker, is a relatively uncomplicated bill.

Before ~oin~ into the content of the bill, it is only a small bill, 6675

"''ay 21, ]~74 Tape No. 169'3 NM - 3 there are~ few thin~s that I think are beneficial to say. The nurposP. of this bill is to prevent the practice of a captive market of huilding supplies and thus the possible increase in housing costs; anrl note I say, "A possible increase in housing costs." We do not claim that this is the absolute and complete answer but it is a measure which we feel will help with respect to the housinp costs in the nrovince.

I emphasize that it is~ bill of general application; not specific in nature,which applies to any firm or individual or group of individuals specifically, but it is the feeling of government and my feeling and the feeling of rovernment which has approved this bill, one that we must have.

On the one side you have a government which has to look at the provision of free competition which society we hopefully have and on the other side is t i,e business interest of getting business and we feel or I feel anyway that the government is in the positior. really of a referee,in certain cases, to see that there is full, complete and open competition. This is not a restrictive bill or socialistic in nature as some people may think as they look at it, but it is really one of free enterprise.

It provides that building supplies, that no land can be sold and it will make it an offence for a person who sells land subject to a condition that the purchaser thereof is to purchase buildinr supplies and materials for any building to be erected on the land from a main supplier.

The bill also makes any contract entered into contrary to this provision, under section (2) of the bill,voidahle at the option of the purchaser or if the purchaser elects not to void the contract then he may sue for the difference between the contract price, the materials and supplies and the market value,if the contract price is in fact hiRher than the market price. Please note, Mr. Speaker, that this bill does not provide that a developer of land is prohibited from sellin~ supplies to somebody who he has sold a lot to but it does mean that he cannot make it a condition, an involuntarv condition.

He can build houses on it if he wish to. This will not affect really the price of land because 6676

May 21, 1974 Tape No. lli93 NM - 4 when he sells the house and the land together he is then in a market hfr1self. This act will come into force, Mr. Speaker, I should indicate. upon the coming into effect of the proclamation of the act, not the proclamation but the assent by the Lieutenant-<'..overnor; which we hope will be this evening. It will not affect contracts entered into before that date but will affect contracts, as all laws do, afterwards. Now here again I say that this particular type of act will douhtless be greeted with a certain amount of innuendo.

Sometimes people question the motivations of acts such as this, as I have experienced from time to time with respect to other measures that have come in but I would hope, really hope that this act will not cause condemnation of any companies concerned that have been carrying out this practice in the past because this is not the ournose of the bill. Their interest, it must be remembered, are completely business interests and they are entitled to carry on business insofar as the law allows. Rut r.overnment's duty is to assure that there is, I say free competition.

There is no intention in this bill to ascribe the high cost of housing to any individuals or group of individuals in this citv or in this province and we cannot say, I cannot say myself how much the cost of housing baa increased by this practice. Obviously nobody can. But I feel that it certainly could be, by the restriction of competition and providing as I say a captive market. With the housing problem in this province as accute as it is, and it is really accute, this povernment would be negligent indeed if it did not act.

As I say, it is not the panacea to all of our housing problems, it is not the cure to all of our housing problems but I feel it goes some way and whatever way it can be done, this government must do. After all we have housing costs here that are higher than in any part of Canada and certainly in the Atlantic Provinces. A lot of this has been through the cost of raw material, through the cost of 6677

~~av 21, 19 74 Tape !lo. 1693 NM - 5 transportation and damages that are necessarily incident and we become fullv aware of and experience in this province as a result of faulty transnortation svstems available. Over these things we have absolutely no control really whatsoever, no effective control that is, but this government would be nerliP-ent indeed if it did not