May

16, 2012 GOVERNMENT

SERVICES COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 5:30 p.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Forsey): Good evening, everyone.

Before we start, I would just like to say for the information of any new

people, normally we run for a maximum of three hours; hopefully, we will finish

in less. That would be nice, but there are three hours allotted for it.

What we will do first is ask for introductions. I have a couple of more items

I would like to look after but we will do introductions, starting right down at

the end with Mr. Lane.

MR. LANE: Paul Lane, MHA, Mount Pearl South.

MR. RUSSELL: Keith Russell, MHA, Lake Melville.

MR. PEACH: Calvin Peach, MHA, Bellevue.

MR. MURPHY: George Murphy, MHA for St. John's East, NDP.

MR. SMITH: Daniel Smith, researcher with the NDP caucus office.

MR. LETTO: Graham Letto, researcher with the Official Opposition office.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, MHA, Bay of Islands.

CHAIR: Clayton Forsey, Exploits, and Chair.

Before we introduce the minister and his staff, I would like to have a motion

to adopt the minutes of the last Estimates meeting with Service NL on May 7. Can

I have a motion to adopt the minutes?

MR. PEACH: So moved.

CHAIR: So moved by the Member for Bellevue.

Okay, can I call for the subheads before we?

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 1.1.01.

Normally what we will do is we will let the Opposition start with fifteen

minutes and then we will go to George there, and back and forth. Unless you feel

you want less time or something like that. We do have three hours, and if we go

to that time, hopefully you can get through the headings that you want to get

through in due time.

Minister, I will ask you to introduce yourself and your staff, and I must

say, if you are responding to a question it would be nice to announce your name

for the purpose of the boys and girls in the media room and Hansard, so as they

can identify who you are when you are responding.

Minister Hedderson, if you want to introduce your staff and we will carry on

with questions when you are ready.

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister Tom Hedderson, Member for Harbour Main.

MR. CHIPPETT: Jamie Chippett, Deputy Minister, Transportation and Works.

MR. GOSSE: Gary Gosse, Assistant Deputy Minister for Transportation

Branch.

MR. MOORES: Weldon Moores, ADM, Strategic Corporate Services, also acting

ADM Marine.

MR. ANTLE: Kevin Antle, Departmental Comptroller.

MR. BOWDEN: Keith Bowden, Executive Director, Works Branch.

MS VOKEY: Sharon Vokey, Executive Assistant to the Minister.

MR. CARD: Jason Card, Director of Communications.

MS TIMMINS: Emily Timmins, Communications Manager.

CHAIR: Are you ready for questions, Minister?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, just to welcome everyone here tonight.

I know it is probably the last Estimates, and I am certainly looking forward

to some questions and some discussion. In the interest of time, I am just going

to open it up, because I am sure that throughout the course of the evening we

will get to my budget estimates.

CHAIR: Okay. Thank you, Minister.

Eddie, we can start with you. We are starting at I have already announced

it, I believe subhead 1.1.01.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

First of all, Minister, thank you and to all the staff for this. As I always

recognize, it is the staff all throughout Western Newfoundland, Corner Brook

especially that I deal with, the good job that they do. The many times that I

deal with them, it is always on a professional basis and always a good working

relationship. If you could pass that on to the staff, that it is well recognized

and well appreciated.

Minister, I am going to ask some questions instead of going through line by

line, starting out, if that is okay with you.

MR. HEDDERSON: Go ahead.

MR. JOYCE: The first thing and you heard me ask it many times in the

House of Assembly the design of the hospital in Corner Brook, is that with

your department? I am assuming it is.

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, yes. The works part of it would cover any of

the buildings that are going up and any of the projects. We have been very much

involved to date.

Usually, you look at it as four stages. The business case, which presented to

government and the decision made to move forward with a project, followed up by

pre-design. Obviously, that is the stage we are in right now. We look to Health

to come forward now with the final program. Once we get to that stage, then we

move on and engage the necessary consultants to do the design and move towards

scoping out the work for tender. Then the construction stage begins and we move

on.

Right now, we are just on the verge of moving into the design stage;

henceforth, the dollars that are reflected in the budget will reflect the

ability for us to carry into that stage and move forward for the coming months.

MR. JOYCE: Who is commissioned to do the design work?

MR. HEDDERSON: You can go down through the names.

OFFICIAL: The design work has

MR. JOYCE: I just want to be fair, because I know the minister, I am

after asking a lot of questions and I have been trying to get answers on this.

Whatever is said here that I may be speaking about publicly, as you know, is on

public record.

MR. HEDDERSON: We have nothing to hide in the sense of this is work

that has been carried out and I just want to identify. Because there are a

number of consultants and companies that have been involved, both from the

aspect through Western Health, through my department, and as well through the

Department of Health and Community Services.

Any project of this nature and I will mention that this is really the first

major hospital that we as a government or any government has built since the

Health Sciences, and obviously we want to make sure the direction we are going

in is following the standard best practices that are in effect throughout the

country.

With that in mind, we will just go through who has been involved to this

stage.

MR. CHIPPETT: The contract for pre-design services was Hatch Mott

MacDonald and they were tasked with developing a program. That is the stage we

are at now, is looking for that program to be finalized, as the minister said,

by our colleagues in Health. At this stage there has been no engagement of a

firm to do design by government until that program is signed off.

MR. JOYCE: What is the expected date to have the design work done?

MR. HEDDERSON: It is too early to talk about the stages because that

depends on our ability to move forward. The same way with the dollar value. We

have to be very, very careful in pre-design until we can get into design and

move forward. What usually happens is that once we get into the design stage, we

will be talking about some sort of a dollar figure in the sense of plus or minus

maybe 35 per cent. Then we will narrow that down to a number that is within ten.

At that stage then we will be going out to tender.

Really, the design stage, depending on how quickly we can get it done, and

obviously we would like for it to be done as quickly as possible, but we have to

engage a company to come in and to basically lay out what is involved and then

we will put a timeline on it.

I am very reluctant, Eddie if I said six months or I said a year, I would

only be guessing and on a project of this size, I would not guess.

MR. JOYCE: I would hold you to it.

It is only in the pre-design stage right now? It is not in the design

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, again we are in transition at the end of the

pre-design and ready to move not ready yet, but we have some final touches to

do to the programming to make sure that it is fitting with the business case

that we began with and that we can move into what we call the design stage.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you.

So, there is no consultant hired yet, like for the design work yet.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, not for the

MR. JOYCE: I just want to get it correct because I know I am going to be

asked later.

MR. HEDDERSON: The pre-design work that has been completed, the program

has been presented to government and it is that program now that is going to

have to be looked at to make sure that it fits exactly what we want it to be.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

You cannot give a completion date.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, I will not give a completion date because, again, I

would be guessing and I am not going to go there. I have learned valuable

lessons that guessing in this game is not where I should be.

MR. JOYCE: Again, I am just looking for the (inaudible). I know the House

was expecting it to be completed by 2017-2018. Is that realistic to be

completed? We are not even in the design stage.

MR. HEDDERSON: When we are looking at the timeline, I think I am still a

bit premature in going to a timeline. That would be once we get into the design

stage we can talk with more certainty as to when it will be complete, and as

well as to the amount of dollars it would cost.

Naturally, in moving forward in our fiscal forecast that we have, we know

that this is going to be a multi-million dollar facility. In comparing it to

others throughout Canada, we know it is going to be fairly extensive. It is

going to be the biggest project that this government has tackled, that even the

government of the Province has ever tackled. Timelines, I am very reluctant to

even

MR. JOYCE: You should tell your colleagues; they are the ones putting the

timelines on it.

MR. HEDDERSON: What is that?

MR. JOYCE: Your colleagues are the ones putting the timeline on it.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes indeed, but delays happen in these projects. Sometimes

we need to put a pause button on to make sure that the direction that we are

taking this is not simply four walls. This is a regional hospital.

MR. JOYCE: Can I ask when you started the pre-design work? How long ago

did you start the pre-design work?

MR. CHIPPETT: I believe it was 2009 when Hatch Mott MacDonald was

engaged. I can check on that date. I am pretty sure, though, it was in the year

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

As you know it is a big issue out in Corner Brook and people were expecting

it to be started by now, and not by you, Minister, or anybody in your department

MR. HEDDERSON: As you know, the same way we can talk about the Labrador

West hospital that we put up, and that is the closest that we have done to

putting up a hospital. Graham probably realizes that there were some delays with

the land and so on and so forth. These things happen.

As well, you know that we are ahead with the land. Pennecon went out and won

the tender to do the levelling, or the scoping, or whatever of that. We have

gotten that much further ahead, and I think we are up to about $17 million now

of what we put in.

It is the same old story, the more that you can frontload and get closer to

where you need to be, the easier it is in the construction stage then to carry

it out. If you get into the construction stage and you have not done the

major because you have to take steps backward.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, I am going to go on another topic that I brought up:

the ferry replacement.

MR. HEDDERSON: Oh, yes.

MR. JOYCE: Marystown with Kiewit, can you give us any more information of

where that is at now, the cost that is in dispute?

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically when you look at where we are and I laid it

out a couple of weeks ago to the media and to the general public there were

two aspects of the snag or the stop, or the pause or whatever you want to call

it that got us in the negotiations. The first part of it, Kiewit have come back

and indicated they are ready to move forward off the adjustment. Basically it is

settled but not settled in the sense there are some conditions. Part of it is

that we settle on the boat. What it is, there is an adjustment they have asked

for, and in the contract they have every right to go to arbitration. They wanted

that to stay.

Basically, we are moving forward. We have agreement in principle on a

settlement on the adjustment. Now we have to go into the second stage which is

to sit down and negotiate the price for the third, and the contract for it to

move forward. We are very optimistic. With regard to it, negotiations have not

finished on either part of it, but we are moving forward. Hopefully it will be

done in a timely fashion so we can come back and report.

MR. JOYCE: You do not want to divulge the amount?

MR. HEDDERSON: No, I am not going to, simply because the negotiations

have not been completed. We have an agreement and that agreement allowed us to

move to stage two, which is now negotiate for the boat. Then the two of them

will come together and we can release the details.

MR. JOYCE: I am going to get back to the hospital for one more second

because I do not want any confusion here. I asked at least ten or fifteen

questions on this hospital and the answer I got and I have it marked down is

this $1 million will complete the design of the hospital. What I am being told

here is that all we are in is the pre-design and we have not even started the

actual design of the hospital yet.

Am I correct in that?

MR. HEDDERSON: What you look at, at this stage, is that you have to have

the program. The program is the heart or the framework.

MR. JOYCE: I understand that.

MR. HEDDERSON: The program has to be dead-on before we even start to put

up walls, concepts, or whatever. That is the big part that has to be done and

has to be settled on. That is not done yet.

MR. JOYCE: That is the pre-design?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, but you end up out of the pre-design with the program

for that hospital. From that program then you can start making: how many

operating rooms, how many waiting rooms, and all that sort of thing.

MR. JOYCE: I understand that. I am just trying to be

MR. HEDDERSON: That is going to be carried out in this fiscal year and

the $1 million will make sure that happens.

MR. JOYCE: The pre-design, but the design work has not even started yet

on the hospital.

MR. HEDDERSON: We have to put a consultant in place before (inaudible)

MR. JOYCE: Oh, no, I agree with you. I am not arguing with you. I am just

telling you the questions I asked. This is why it is very important. The people

who are asking me out in Corner Brook are telling me that the design work has

not started yet. Now it is being confirmed that they are still in the pre-design

phase.

MR. HEDDERSON: There is pre-design work and there is design work.

MR. JOYCE: That's right, yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: The design work now will take that program and basically

build a hospital around it.

MR. JOYCE: I agree, yes. That is different from what I have been getting.

Yes, okay.

The other issue, Minister, is once we get the issue straightened out with

Marystown which I hope you do by the way, and keep going at it and get it done

what is the timeline to build the other ferries in the Province?

MR. HEDDERSON: First of all, look at the sizes of them. The third one, we

are talking about a medium-size one, right.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: We know that Kiewit has already built two of them, and the

third one should be the gravy part of it in the sense that now there might be

some changes, because you learn lessons in the first one, the second one. Like

the Comm could be moved a foot over so you get better view of the back as well

as the front.

Also, we always have the opportunity of maybe lengthening it out a little bit

because on St. Brendan's, for example, we discovered that the size fits the

number there, no problem, but we missed being able to take a mobile home over by

so many feet. Again, we might entertain the part of maybe lengthening it a bit

but those are modifications that would be no problem. That should roll out as

smoothly as anything because with two already in the water we do not anticipate

any.

The small ones, five for the South Coast and one for Labrador, they are in

design stage right now. They will be finished up correct me if I am wrong,

Jamie by, I think, the end of November of this year. We are approaching that

one a little bit different than the Winsor . Just put the Winsor

aside, that is the large one.

What we are trying to do with the small boats is to make sure that we are

encouraging shipbuilding in the small yards. We asked for expressions of

interest already

MR. JOYCE: In Newfoundland?

MR. HEDDERSON: In Newfoundland, and I think are there two shipyards

that responded?

OFFICIAL: There are actually three, Minister.

MR. HEDDERSON: I will not name them or anything but there are three

shipyards, and it is not Marystown. There are three, other than Marystown, that

were interested in building one or more of these boats. We have looked at them

and our consultant has gone back to them and said: okay, in order for you to be

able to do it you need this type of lift, you need this type of space, you need

this, that and the other thing, to give them the time to get ready for when we

probably, in the New Year, put out not only expressions of interest, but

actually a tender or an RFP.

What would we be putting out, Weldon?

MR. MOORES: (Inaudible) because they are so far designed.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, it would be a tender because it is already scoped

out. They are all going to be the same, except the Labrador one would have more

ice strengthening for the fact that, as opposed to the South Coast.

MR. JOYCE: When is the timeline, do you expect? Again, I am not holding

you to it.

MR. HEDDERSON: What would happen if one or two, or three of them bid

some bid for two, some bid for one, some bid for six, and that sort of thing. We

will have to work our way through that. The six of them well with three

shipyards, obviously three of them could be built concurrently if the three of

them are or one might take two, and one after the other.

Once we get it in the shipyard, have we any concept of the time it would

take, because it would be a guesstimate again?

MR. MOORES: Yes, you do what you said. It is difficult to confirm because

it depends on how many, or what part of a boat the shipyard bids on.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. MOORES: We do not know that yet.

MR. HEDDERSON: What we have also done is they are all the same

propulsion systems, they are all the same electrical, they are all the same

navigation gear and that sort of thing, so we are tendering that out. As a

government, we tender that out and we will be providing all of that. Basically,

what the shipyards will be doing will be building the hull and putting all the

components together.

MR. JOYCE: It is not a fixed date to have them built, but is there a time

you are hoping to have them out in the water, all of the boats? All the I know

it is tough.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, it will depend on who gets them. Let's say the

three of them are there now and qualified to do it, maybe only one would bid.

Then I would have to come back to you and say: Listen, it is going to take

probably three times as long now to get those boats in the water as opposed to

the three of them doing it.

When the tender goes out, and that will go out in the New Year, we are very,

very hopeful that to build a boat, usually you are talking years, not months.

MR. JOYCE: Two or three years, yes.

CHAIR: Excuse me, Eddie.

I know fifteen minutes does not seem very long sometimes, but I think we have

gone over a little bit.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. That is fine.

Thank you.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay.

We will hold it on the Winsor . We will stop there and go on to George,

but just hold it and we will come back to the Winsor , unless there is

agreement for me to finish this up and then we will go on. It does not matter to

CHAIR: We will have time to do it after.

MR. HEDDERSON: - but George is chomping at the bit there.

CHAIR: What I was going to say is generally in Estimates

MR. HEDDERSON: I will leave it up to the Chair, sorry.

CHAIR: - we try to get through the subheads first and then some general

questions at the end, but it is your time. You choose it as you wish. I just

wanted to let you know that. It is not your first time, Eddie.

George, do you want to have a go?

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, sir.

First off, I guess, thank you very much to the staff for coming out here. I

know it is a beautiful evening and everything. I know that you have a tremendous

department to try to keep ahead of. I want to thank you for your efforts.

I know with twenty-one pages of data here in the Estimates book, I have to

say that three hours, Mr. Chair, I do not think it is going to do it because I

think we have a lot of questions as regards to the numbers that are being kicked

around there. I would like to make that note, that possibly we can go a little

bit past that particular time if need be.

I will not be asking any questions of anybody over there if the Liberals have

already asked the question, unless I have kind of a supplementary question to

align or something. That is the process that I would like to go through. I will

start off with a couple of questions as regards to general policy for the

department first before I start getting into line items.

You mentioned the Corner Brook hospital, and as far as I know through history

that was mentioned by a former Health Minister. I think that it might have been

Tom Osborne at the time. That goes back a long way, that Corner Brook

announcement for the hospital. I think the year might have been 2006, this is

now 2012. We are talking about seven years and we still have a hospital in the

design work stage.

I would like to get a comment basically on the timeline. Seven years for

designing of a hospital I do not think should be acceptable by anybody. Is there

anybody there who can answer the question as regard to?

MR. HEDDERSON: Was it 2007?

MR. MURPHY: 2007?

OFFICIAL: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: We are talking six years then for the announcement of a

hospital and then actually kick starting this hospital and getting a cinderblock

down on the ground here. Is there some reason why there was a six-year delay

between the formal announcement of the hospital and the actual design work

taking place?

MR. HEDDERSON: First of all, it has to be done right. I will tell you

that right upfront. There are some times that we have to step backwards because

it is not working out to be where we need it to be. Usually there is an

announcement done. Probably a Blue Book commitment was involved there in that

election, and then it unfolds. You put things in place and you drive it as much

as you can.

There has to be consultation. Remember, it is not only the government just

taking it and saying we are going to build a hospital, it goes back to Western

Health. Western Health takes it then and basically they have to present to

government what they see as necessary. That is consultations with the community,

and that is consultations with the medical people who are involved in the

hospital.

All of these consultations take place. Then they are collated, looked at, and

then they move forward. That is where we are today. We are moving it along and

doing what we need to do. Again, when it comes to a project of this size, it has

to be done right.

MR. MURPHY: I tend to think that I would agree with you on the aspect

that it has to be done right; I am just wondering why it took six years to do

it. I do not think it was made either during an election campaign, I think that

was a formal announcement.

MR. HEDDERSON: We are thinking I do not have it in front of me but we

can go back over it and we can have this another time.

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: I was not there at the beginning, to be honest with you. I

came in three years ago, and this is a priority for this government. We are

moving it forward as a priority, but even with priorities we do not circumvent

any of the stages, and sometimes we have to go back over stages to make sure we

have it right.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, and I trust that the department would do that right. I

just have a question about the six-year time frame. Again, we are hearing

announcements for the announcements of the former announcements. So, as regards

to that, that is fine and dandy, I am good with that answer.

The second question would have to be direct concerns about the ferry

replacement program, because I know the ferry replacement program, again, we are

dealing with tie-ups as regards to Kiewit. Are we going to be dealing with I

know that the old stories are out there, that there were flaws in design and

there were warnings from the people who were putting the ferry together.

MR. HEDDERSON: Excuse me, flaws in the design?

MR. MURPHY: Apparently, there were flaws in the design. That is the word

that I get. Under requirements, for example, for

MR. HEDDERSON: This goes back to what we were just talking about. Before

we get into the construction stage, we have to make sure that from pre-design to

design is and the ferries are no different from what I just described. What

happened there was that we had consultants that did the pre-design and then into

the design, and there was a period of time, when Kiewit took the contract, that

they went back over it and they identified areas. Between the officials and the

consultants, we came to a design that we felt was adequate. It was only then

that the keel was put down and we begin.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, but part of that process, was that not a flaw in the

design that Kiewit had warnings about at that particular time?

MR. HEDDERSON: You do not talk about flaws in design, what you talk about

is making sure that the design suits the waters, making sure that the design

suits the infrastructure that we are putting it in, and it follows from the

business case that we put in as a ferry with so much capacity in a particular

part of Newfoundland and Labrador with the right.

Of course, Kiewit wanted to make sure that the work that had been done, that

they had nothing to do with; they had to go back over all that work and move it

along. You are familiar with construction, I am sure. We have contingencies that

are built in, and in any construction job there are change orders. I think we

ended up initially with something like sixty change orders as we started to

design the boat as we started to construct the boat, I should say.

MR. MURPHY: That is what I am getting at.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: That was the problem that Kiewit had to keep on coming back.

So that is part of the reasons for the cost overruns?

MR. HEDDERSON: That is natural with any project.

When you are building a boat and we knew when we built into it, and we

talked with Kiewit in indicating that the first one was going to be the most

difficult one, because the expertise for building ferries was lost. We had not

built a ferry in Newfoundland and Labrador since 199, so that was a stretch

there. We were putting three of the same ones in. We realized and we worked very

closely to make sure of that first one that we were moving along. You move

along, a bit of plate is put on, you check it, look at it, and say: Oh my God,

that should have been that much. So you have to go back over it. The first one

was a challenge. Kiewit rose to the challenge, as did the workforce in

Marystown.

MR. MURPHY: What I am asking you in a nutshell: Was that part of the

reason for the cost overrun and the argument between Kiewit and government?

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, you are asking me now to go back over negotiations

and so on, which I am not going to do. I will tell you that we did have a

contingency. We worked closely with Kiewit and any change orders that were

necessary were done. If it was our responsibility, we took responsibility; if it

was theirs, they took responsibility.

There were delays. As a matter of fact, there was a delay in getting the boat

out; but we were understanding, because we would push the date forward when we

realized Kiewit could not deliver. It was because we understood it was a great

big learning experience. We wanted to make sure that boat came out and that boat

was the boat we wanted.

MR. MURPHY: That is fine and dandy. I did not mean for you to go on that

far with it.

I will ask you a couple of line items for now. Line 1.2.02, Administrative

Support, line 01, Salaries from $1,085,600, you showed an increase in Salaries

for that year, and along with that a projected increase in your budgeted

Salaries for this year.

MR. HEDDERSON: You can go ahead, Jamie.

MR. CHIPPETT: Is that 1.2.01, correct?

MR. MURPHY: It is 1.2.02, line 01.

MR. CHIPPETT: So you are asking about the change in the salary vote,

correct?

MR. MURPHY: The change in Salaries, yes.

MR. CHIPPETT: The difference in 2011-2012 between the budgeted amount and

the revised amount was due to severance payments. In 2012-2013 you would have

step increases. I would suspect as we go through the evening we will repeat

ourselves a little bit in that the department salary plan is fairly flexible

from year to year. Obviously the number of projects and the number of workers

assigned to projects varies depending on the progress of projects and so on. It

is really just an allocation of dollars that matches up with the particular need

in that salary vote and in other instances it will be less, but for largely the

same reason.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you.

Line 03 in the same section, Transportation and Communications, I noticed

$204,300 budgeted and you spent $152,400 and the amount is just off a little bit

from the 2011-2012 to 2012-2013 budget at $202,300. Can we get an explanation on

that line?

MR. CHIPPETT: That is basically travel. Again, it is an indication of the

need in a particular year. It is basically static between the two budget years,

but we spent less in 2011-2012.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect.

Line 06, Purchased Services, I noticed $221,800 in 2011-2012 against $191,800

in the 2012-2013 Estimates. I wonder if you can explain to me what you would be

using for Purchased Services.

MR. CHIPPETT: That is advertising, promotion, printing costs and so on.

MR. MURPHY: Advertising through any particular media, besides printing

costs (inaudible)

MR. CHIPPETT: Really, anybody who would run our moose-vehicle campaign

ads, as an example.

MR. MURPHY: So that is where we would find that?

MR. CHIPPETT: That is where you would find some of it.

MR. MURPHY: That is where you would find some of it. Okay, perfect.

Strategic Human Resource Management, 1.2.03, line 01, I guess is already

self-explanatory as regards to the Salaries. It is probably step increments,

that sort of thing, wage increases.

MR. CHIPPETT: Yes, and part of it is the salary plan adjustments, as

well.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

I noticed a huge amount of Employee Benefits here in this line, line 02.

MR. CHIPPETT: That is workers' compensation claims; that would all be run

through our Human Resources Branch.

MR. MURPHY: That is a lot of money there.

Transportation and Communications, line 03, the amount $67,700 was spent

against an actual of $39,800, but again there is $39,800 only budgeted for this

year.

MR. CHIPPETT: I do not know the specific details, other than to say it

would have been for increased travel. Our HR people look after our Occupational

Health and Safety requirements. They look after things like training for our

snowplow operators for schools and so on. So there would be some travel

involved, and there would have been a greater need, obviously, in that year. I

do not have specifics in terms of

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Can we get a breakdown of the transportation costs for that particular

section? Is that possible?

MR. CHIPPETT: Sure, yes.

MR. MURPHY: Again, in this section, Strategic Human Resource Management,

line 04 Supplies, $60,000 worth against a budgeted $4,500.

MR. CHIPPETT: That is increased requirements for office and training

supplies.

MR. MURPHY: Do you have a listing of where those offices would be? It

sounds like a classroom of some kind or something.

MR. CHIPPETT: We have an HR training room in Transportation and Works,

but I would imagine some of that training material would be for snow schools. We

run those all around the Province.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. Again, that would be connected to the above line item,

the $67,700 there. We will get a breakdown of that. That is fine for that

section.

Subhead 1.2.04 Policy, Planning and Evaluation, I notice a difference of

about $35,200 in Salaries, lower than what it was budgeted for last year,

$533,500 for this year. Line 01, 1.2.04 Policy, Planning and Evaluation.

MR. CHIPPETT: That would be adjustments, again, within the salary plan.

The lower amount for revised in 2011-2012 was due to some vacancies in that

division. The higher number in 2012-2013 reflects the actual salary

expenditures; no reduction in the numbers, but sometimes we pay for people in

Policy and Planning out of other areas in the department, depending on the

projects they are engaged in.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Just down at the bottom there, line 10 Grants and Subsidies, $50,000 for this

year, $294,000 spent for last year. I am wonder if I can get any explanation as

regards to that one?

MR. CHIPPETT: That is a reduction in our grants. The particular grant

that was reduced in that case was the grant that is usually given to the Grand

Concourse Authority.

MR. MURPHY: The Grand Concourse Authority has lost money in this year's

budget, according to that.

MR. CHIPPETT: Their grant is the reduction in that line item.

MR. MURPHY: Did they lose a lot of money overall in the budget?

MR. HEDDERSON: (Inaudible) that is the only thing I am responsible for.

MR. MURPHY: Just as regards to Transportation and Works. That is the only

place where you can answer for. Okay.

I guess I will switch over to policy. I will leave the numbers for now. Just

a question as regards to the government fleet of vehicles; you obviously keep an

inventory of fleet vehicles, the grey cars, hybrid vehicles. I am not talking

about the flex fuel vehicles now. The flex fuel vehicles are completely separate

from hybrid vehicles. Hybrid vehicles, of course, are the mixed gas-electric.

MR. GOSSE: On hybrid vehicles, we have somewhere in the mid-thirties.

MR. MURPHY: Thirty-odd vehicles. How are they working out?

MR. GOSSE: We are seeing savings in fuel on the SUV type vehicles, and on

the newer true hybrid car vehicles we are seeing savings in fuel, significant

savings.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

So, it is only about thirty vehicles right now. Overall, Minister, how many

vehicles in the government fleet that you would be dealing with?

MR. GOSSE: It is about 800 light vehicles in the government fleet now.

MR. MURPHY: Just 800 vehicles. How many tractors and that sort of thing?

Do you have a complete inventory of it?

MR. HEDDERSON: Vehicles or automobiles, trucks or equipment? You are

looking for equipment.

MR. MURPHY: Yes. Equipment is equipment, vehicles are vehicles, whatever

burns gas.

MR. GOSSE: In the equipment, there is between 400 and 500 pieces of heavy

equipment and about 800 light vehicles.

MR. MURPHY: Is that number relatively constant? Because I know there was

an effort some time ago, a number of years ago now, that government was trying

to reduce the number of vehicles it had at one particular point in time.

MR. GOSSE: That has been relatively stable over the last number of years.

MR. MURPHY: It has been stable. So we can get a perfect count on how many

vehicles and everything that are out there.

The other question I had is with regard to the vehicles and everything that

are out there. I think Transportation and Works is probably responsible for

things as well in the government inventory, like ATVs and that sort of thing. Do

you have a listing of ATVs, snowmobiles that various government workers would be

using, for example, Wildlife, et cetera?

MR. GOSSE: We do have a listing. Those vehicles are not in our

department, but we do have a listing of all the ATVs, snowmobiles, that are in

the government fleet.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. So that is separate from Transportation and Works all

together.

MR. GOSSE: It is in our inventory, but they are not located physically in

our department. They are primarily in Environment and Natural Resources.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

CHAIR: Excuse me.

George, we are gone over a couple of minutes.

MR. MURPHY: All right, okay. Go ahead.

CHAIR: So, we will go back to

MR. HEDDERSON: (Inaudible) next budget, obviously, we are the conduit for

providing vehicles for the rest of government. They come through us and we have

standing orders.

CHAIR: Before we go back to Mr. Joyce, I remind the responders to say who

they are when they are responding. Sometimes they cannot find you with their

lights as well.

Eddie.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, sir, I will just give you an opportunity there on the

Earle Winsor . It was mentioned about the flaws. From my understanding, and

you can explain, it is more of a design change as you go ahead during

construction.

MR. HEDDERSON: When you are coming out of pre-design with regard to

design for boats, you have to put that out to agencies that would look at it.

Weldon, can you just talk a little bit about that?

MR. MOORES: After pre-design on the vessel we will put it to a

classification society. They will come back with certain suggestions, some are

mandatory, some are just suggestions. We will make a decision which ones if they

are discretionary, and they could get incorporated in the final design.

Once you go to final design and start construction, as the minister said,

sometimes as you are building it you find an oversight and there is an

adjustment needed as you progress. That is why we have contingencies in our

estimates to cover that.

MR. JOYCE: It was not a design flaw; it was change of design along the

way.

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, when you are building that boat for the first

time, and there were great concerns naturally, and sometimes you are taking a

step forward and have to take a step back. There is a lot of work, and that is

the front-loading again. As you can see with the Winsor and I will get

Weldon to talk about the Winsor again, just to go through where we are,

and that might give you a better picture of how we are getting to the design.

Weldon, can you just take us through that?

MR. MOORES: There are different ways you can approach the construction of

a vessel. You can do pre-design and then go to a yard to complete detailed

design.

In the case of the Winsor , what we have done is we have decided to go

to full detailed design. We had a consultant to do a preliminary design and then

we have gone ahead and put the pre-design through the classification society.

Based on the comments that have come back, we have asked the consultant to do a

full detailed design. In this case, when we are ready to go to the yard it is

basically a construction tender that we will be looking for, the design will be

complete.

Now, that said, as you proceed through construction you may need to make some

changes. You might have second thoughts, like the minister said earlier: Oh,

look, we have built it for a mobile home that is say twelve feet wide and now

they are making them thirteen feet wide. Again, there can be always

contingencies and slight adjustments as you go through the construction process.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, Minister, you explained that. Are you all right? Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: What is that?

MR. JOYCE: Are you all right? No, I just wanted to give you the about

where it flaws as it changed design, it is a big difference.

Another question and I have been bringing this up for a long, long while

is twenty-four hour snow clearing. When I say twenty-four-hour snow clearing, I

do not mean to have staff on twenty-four hours. It is to have the ability to

have someone called in. I will just use the Bay of Islands, for example. If

people have to go to work at the hospital and they leave, say, 5:30 or 6:00

o'clock and it is snowing that night and there is a lot of snow, a lot of times

they cannot make it, or they run into major problems or they have to wait for

the tractor.

Can anybody give me a cost estimate of what it would cost for those eight or

ten days of the year where you can call staff in to do snow clearing, instead of

having to wait for the tractor to go 6:00, 7:00 or 8:00 in the morning?

MR. HEDDERSON: I am going to get Gary to talk about the operations,

because he is more familiar with the operations. Supervisors do have flexibility

with an impending storm coming and so on, and Gary will talk a little bit about

that. The weather forecasts these days are pretty spot-on. As well, the midday

shift that is in, if there is a snowstorm pending, the supervisor, again, can

basically make the decision to hold on to some of the plows so that we can

continue on.

Gary, if you just go down, I think you know

MR. JOYCE: I do not mean to interrupt you, but in your own manual, which

I have a copy of, it says that they have to be off by 9:30 o'clock unless they

are in the high-density areas. I know the Bay of Islands and I use the Bay of

Islands, because I am very familiar 9:30 o'clock, they are off the road. Snow

coming, storm coming

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, I will just get Gary to go through the operations,

because there are times when there is an emergency, for example, and you need an

ambulance down at the Bay of Islands at 3:00 in the morning, the RCMP or the

ambulance driver is responding, and all they have to do is pick up the phone and

there is a plow dispatched to go down. That is just the way that we do it and we

have done forever.

MR. GOSSE: Our normal time frame for operations for our snowplow

operators is 5:30 in the morning until 9:30 in the evening; that is correct. If,

at 9:30 in the evening, we were in the middle of a snowstorm all day, the snow

is stopped and we are cleaning up, the operators will continue to work until it

is cleaned up. If it is still snowing and it is going to snow on through the

night, we send them home to get some rest so they can be back safe to operate

again at 5:30 the next morning.

So, if the end is in sight and we are cleaning up, they stay, and the

supervisors have full authority to do that. They do not need to seek anybody

else's approval; they have that authority. If it is continuing to snow, the guys

go home, take a break, and come back at 5:30 in the morning. As the minister

said if we are gone home and there is a call from a medical practitioner at 3:00

in the morning who says we need to get an ambulance or a fire truck has to go,

we respond immediately.

MR. JOYCE: I do not mean to argue with you, Gary, but I can tell you

(inaudible) 9:30 at night the operators are in that depot. I can assure you, I

went up there myself and watched them haul in, snow coming down. If that is the

department policy, like the minister said, if there is snow coming, they can

stay on or if the foreman has that flexibility, I can assure you that the

foremen in the depots do not have that memo sent down I assure you of that.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is not a memo. This has been a practice. Again, I stand

corrected but

MR. JOYCE: No, the practice is, and it is even in the handbook, that at

9:30 p.m., off the road.

MR. GOSSE: I think that what you said there a minute ago was key. You

said you were at the depot and the snow was continuing to come down. Like I

said, if it is still snowing and there is no end in sight, they go home and rest

for 5:30 the next morning. If it is stopped and we are in the cleanup mode, they

clean up before they go home.

MR. JOYCE: No, 9:30 p.m. no matter what. I am not here to argue with you,

but I have seen it and the thing with it and this is very important to me

because I know a couple of people who went off the road just last year up on

Hughes Brook hill. I do not know if you are familiar with it. It is big hill

coming off the North Shore.

The problem with it was there was no snow but a lot of ice and the truck was

going down one way, all the traffic was coming this way, and two vehicles went

of the road. I know the two people who went off the road they called me

because the salt and the sand truck did not go all night. They come on again

5:30 or 6:00 a.m. By the time they get there at 6:00 or 6:30 a.m., people going

to work for 6:30 or 7:00 a.m. are coming this way and it is not done.

My question to you, Minister, is: Can anybody give me a breakdown for those

ten nights or twelve nights in the run of the year on the West Coast, what it

would cost to call in those extra staff to ensure that if someone is coming home

at 10:00 at night like from the mill a prime example is the mill in Corner

Brook or from the hospital, if they are going home after 9:30 p.m. and it was

snowing, if they are going home at 12:00 p.m. and it was snowing since 9:00

p.m., the road conditions are unsafe.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, but again the driving public know or should know the

hours of operation that we have.

MR. JOYCE: They do.

MR. HEDDERSON: When it comes to 9:30 p.m. there is a judgement call that

can be made by the local supervisor as to whether to hold on, to send them home

as usual or whatever. That has been the practice throughout the Province and we

adhere to that. If you are making individual incidents, I cannot comment on

them, but I do know, and Gary has just reiterated that it is the way we operate.

MR. JOYCE: Is there any way to look at it and see if you can change it or

see what it would cost to change it?

MR. HEDDERSON: It is not a matter of cost. We can give you a costing on

it. We have a base budget that we use to take care of our 5:00 a.m. to 9:30 p.m.

or 5:30 a.m. to 9:30 p.m. and we also make provision for those times when there

would be there is a fair bit of overtime involved with maintaining our roads

in the wintertime and we make provision for that as well.

MR. JOYCE: Can you give me a cost or can you do up the extra cost it

would be?

MR. HEDDERSON: You are just looking for your depot out in Little Bay

Islands or the Province?

MR. JOYCE: The Bay of Islands, not Little Bay of Islands. That is a

different one.

MR. HEDDERSON: You had me on the ferries, see. Scratch that, whoever is

there. I am sorry about that, Eddie.

MR. JOYCE: If you can, just what it would cost because it is a big issue.

Bay of Islands goes fifty kilometres one way and forty kilometres the other way

after 9:30 at night, especially if it is late at night.

That brings me into the other thing, Mr. Chair. I did not know you were

Chair. My understanding of the snow clearing now is it goes into Botwood. For

example, it goes from Corner Brook to Deer Lake now, twenty-four-hour snow

clearing to the airport in Deer Lake. Apparently it is done on the amount of

traffic.

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, the pilot project was three years ago, I think

it was. Three or four

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: It was closer to four years ago, and from that pilot

project we had to go forward last year with the results of that. It was a very

successful program for the areas we were doing. We used that as a base and also

asked for an enhancement last year. We looked at the traffic flows and there

were a couple areas in and around the city here: Outer Ring Road, Veterans

Memorial, and CBS. We were able to enhance it to that degree last year. This

year we looked at it and of course, given the Budget year it was, we are

sticking to base and no enhancements this year.

MR. JOYCE: Is the road being cleared to Botwood now?

MR. HEDDERSON: It always was. That was part of it. We did not take any of

the originals off. I do not think we did. Whatever we used for the pilot, that

stayed, and we have only enhanced it.

MR. JOYCE: Botwood was only added last year.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, you are incorrect there.

MR. JOYCE: It was not? Okay, sorry.

Can someone forward to me after the traffic flow for Botwood as compared to,

say, Port aux Basques? God bless Botwood, and I think they deserve it, too, but

how someone can tell me that people getting off the ferries 12:00 o'clock at

night, that there is not more traffic going and I use Port aux Basques because

I know Andrew wrote you on that. You cannot say that more people are coming from

Port aux Basques on a regular basis to Deer Lake than (inaudible) Trans

Canada-Highway to Botwood.

MR. HEDDERSON: We provided the numbers to Andrew, but we can certainly

provide them to you.

MR. JOYCE: Can you provide them for me also for Corner Brook?

I can explain why Corner Brook, and I will pass it on just after this

question, Mr. Chair. If you use the Lewin Parkway in Corner Brook - and people

are familiar -the Lewin Parkway is almost like the Ring Road here, in Corner

Brook. It comes on the other part.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, I am very familiar.

MR. JOYCE: The Lewin Parkway is done. On both ends of the Lewin Parkway

is the Bay of Islands. It starts, none of it is done. So people have to 4:00

o'clock comes and if they are catching a flight in Deer Lake, they have to go

from Cox's Cove over from Lark Harbour to come up that fifty kilometres until

they hit the Lewin Parkway and then it is all done. It is amazing to me why

the traffic flow, because there is no one who can tell me that there is not as

much traffic coming out of the Curling part as it is Botwood.

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, the numbers will show you that basically

MR. JOYCE: Port aux Basques over there

MR. HEDDERSON: If you go back to the basic pilot project, the decision

was made to include whatever sections of road were included. Like I said, we got

the go ahead from the government last year to continue that on a permanent

basis. As I pointed out, every year we review it.

Last year we reviewed it and there were high traffic areas that needed to be

included, which we did, given the money that we could garner this year, as I

pointed out. You will see throughout my estimates that it is basically base

budget for me right now. This year, even though there might be a couple that we

could add on and I will not say which ones because it is all guided by the

traffic flow.

MR. JOYCE: Can I get a copy of the phone numbers, the numbers for Port

aux Basques to

MR. HEDDERSON: The traffic numbers?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: The same with Botwood, and any around Corner Brook that you

have, please.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, we can provide that.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will step aside and let

CHAIR: No, that is okay. You are doing good.

George.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to come back to the vehicles again in the government inventory. Can we

have a list of the total inventory numbers that we have, like a breakdown as

regards to cars, trucks, vans, that sort of thing? If you could make that

available to us it would be great.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: I want to come back to Snow and Ice Control,

section 2.1.04,

page 6.7 in the Estimates book. Salaries, line 01, went from $18,268,400 down to

$17,114,700. It is a drop of over $1 million with about $600,000 less than what

was actually spent in the department this year. I would like to get an

explanation on that line, 2.1.04.01.

MR. CHIPPETT: That is actually a correction based on having, in this

case, too many salary dollars under winter maintenance and not enough under

summer maintenance. Under the summer maintenance category you will see a

corresponding increase in the budget numbers there. So, the amount for the

winter and summer maintenance, from a salary perspective, is the same, but it is

a correction to indicate the actual salary dollars in winter versus summer

maintenance.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

This is winter, so where would we find the summer maintenance number, then?

In the book, or are we going to have to find that line by line here, do you

think?

Oh, there you go, right above there, okay. That explains the difference up

there between 2.1.03, because I also had a question on line 01 there, in that

section for salaries. So that explains the discrepancy.

MR. CHIPPETT: Yes, that is correct.

MR. MURPHY: All right, okay. Perfect, that is great.

As well, we will stick to 2.1.03 Maintenance and Repairs. At the same time,

while everybody's finger is on that section; Transportation and Communications,

$146,400 was budgeted, $207,400 was actually spent. I wonder if you can give me

a breakdown or an explanation on the Transportation and Communications number

there.

MR. CHIPPETT: You will see this in a few places. It is difficult to

predict exactly in the run of a year where our roads employees will have to go

for maintenance or for snow clearing and so on. So, there is often some

variability in what we actually budget and what we spend, because certain

elements of our operations we simply cannot predict the conditions in advance.

MR. MURPHY: That should be worker travel from one area to the other, that

sort of thing?

MR. CHIPPETT: Right.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Line 06 Purchased Services, $3.512 million basically in 2011-2012 budget, the

actual that was spent was $4.4 million, plus change, and the budgeted amount for

Purchased Services for 2012-2013 is going to be well up. I wonder if I could get

an explanation there on line 06.

MR. GOSSE: That is largely to do with the change in maintenance

operations on the Trans-Labrador Highway, as we get into things and there is

more paved and so on. Their maintenance activity has changed somewhat. That is a

reflection of, primarily, the change in activities on the Trans-Labrador

Highway.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, so more people are working up there and that sort of

thing?

MR. GOSSE: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

While we are on the Trans-Labrador Highway topic, I do have a question as

regards to the Auditor General had some concerns as regards to the inspection

of bridges. A lot of these bridges were particularly up in Labrador.

I wonder if we could get an explanation as to what the department has done to

clarify the inspection of bridges and such up on the Trans-Labrador Highway, the

construction areas.

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, when we look at the inspection of the bridges,

we do have a regiment that we follow. I am going to pass it down the line to go

into that. Sometimes we are challenged, especially with regard to the seasons.

In Labrador, in particular, weather closes in a lot quicker. Of course, we

come back then immediately in the spring. By the time you get to the fall, if

there are a couple of bridges that need to be done, that they are looked at to

make sure there is nothing particular. Then in the spring you would follow up

with it.

Gary or Jamie, do you want to go through bridges? Do you want bridges in

general, too?

MR. MURPHY: Well, yes. It is just a bridges question, but at the same

time to quantify your last remarks, one of those bridges I think that he

mentioned in the report did not see an inspection for four years. I think it was

four years he mentioned in the Auditor General's report. I wish I had it in

front of me now.

MR. GOSSE: I do not know which one would have been four years, if there

was one that was four years. Actually, at the time the Auditor General's report

was done there were two bridges that were not inspected.

MR. MURPHY: There were two bridges that were missed?

MR. GOSSE: No, by the time it was late in the fall, and there was ice

and so on around bridges. We would not send our employees down around to do

inspections when it was not safe. As soon as that ice is gone now in the spring,

those last two bridges will be done.

MR. MURPHY: How long does it take to inspect a bridge?

MR. GOSSE: The two bridges that are left are fairly large bridges. They

will probably take half a day or so each.

MR. MURPHY: We are talking, I think it was twenty-nine bridges in

Labrador, basically, that were missed I think it was, in the Auditor General's

report. I am just trying to remember now.

MR. GOSSE: Most of those have been done. The data had not been put into

our system when he did his review. There were two bridges that were not

inspected.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. We are just basically playing catch-up with data?

MR. GOSSE: We are playing catch-up right now with the last two bridges.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, all right.

So we will have some answers to that one, I guess, at the end of it all and

see how you are doing with it next year.

Thanks for the answer, by the way; it is great to know.

Heading 2.1.04, I want to come back to Snow and Ice Control. I had a question

as regards to one or two more lines here in this particular section. Line 04,

Supplies, I take it that might be salt or equipment acquisitions. There was

$23,339,000 budgeted for this year, it was $21,982,000 that was budgeted in

2011-2012, and the actual that was spent was $25,283,000.

MR. CHIPPETT: That is indeed salt and sand. The explanation for 2011-2012

is we were able to stockpile some salt at the end of the year and store for next

year. It also reflects that fact that we had more roads to deal with,

particularly with the increased paving of the Trans-Labrador Highway.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect, okay.

Next, Purchased Services, Line 06, there is a discrepancy in the numbers by

$2.3 million between the budget of 2011-2012 and the actual that was spent, and

the actual that is budgeted for this year, I guess, is $9.1 million, as well.

MR. CHIPPETT: That is the same rationale Gary mentioned earlier in terms

of the type of work changing and, in particular, between the summer and winter

maintenance period for the Trans-Labrador Highway. There is also some additional

funding in terms of 2012-2013 for contract increases.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

I want to ask you a general question when it comes to salt and sand

purchases: Are you finding that you need less, in recent years? Well, just as a

sign, with of changing weather patterns and everything, I know there has been

some moderation in the weather lately, but has there been a change as regards to

the quantities the department is using?

MR. HEDDERSON: You have to understand that even though we did not have

the snow, it is wintertime, and there is an obligation every morning for the run

to be done, and oftentimes a layer of sand in anticipation of freezing

temperatures or whatever. So, in actual fact, I think we used more sand this

year than we did no, more salt. Would you say more salt? Of course, you would

have to take in to account that the Trans-Labrador Highway may have added a

little bit to that.

MR. MURPHY: I am just wondering if government has been keeping track of

those numbers. It is more of an item of curiosity because maybe somebody might

want to know one of these days. It might be an idea just to compile some data

and track it.

I guess I will leave it on that particular note, but I will leave you,

particularly when it comes to salt and snow clearing I do not know who the

driver is who lives on Legion Road out in CBS, but he is one helluva driver and

he is a heck of a snowplow operator. If that is any sign of the crews you have

on the road, my hats off to them. This fellow, I do not know who he is, but he

is out there usually by about 4:45 o'clock any time that I have ever seen. There

were a lot of times I worked nights when I was on the way home, only to find

this particular driver just crawling into the truck and getting out there to

clear the roads.

If you can, if there is some way you can do it, pass along my compliments to

the drivers who are out there. I know they are a hard-working bunch and they do

a good job.

MR. HEDDERSON: That will be done.

Sometimes, George, when we do that we will make sure that all the drivers

hears it. We have had some incidents where they have saved people's lives. We

get a lot e-mails back or letters complimenting, as you just complimented.

MR. MURPHY: I just want to make sure that is passed along.

How am I doing for time? Do I have a couple of more minutes?

Transportation and Works is responsible as well for the water bomber fleet so

I just want to change track here.

MR. HEDDERSON: We are responsible in the sense that we maintain them, but

the deployment of them rests with Natural Resources.

MR. MURPHY: I just want to ask you a general question about that. You do

keep a good stock of supply parts and that sort of thing. I noticed in the

purchase manuals that we get on a monthly basis here in the House that there

have been some acquisition of parts and everything for some.

How up to date now is the water bomber fleet? Are we on track? Are we okay in

that regard? Are we going to need new planes in a couple of years?

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, we have four new ones and we have held onto two of

the other ones. These were great acquisitions. They are the updated ones. We are

in very, very good shape.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

I had a question about that one: Any anticipated extra costs this year? It

seems they are going to be in for a tough year as regards the temperature by all

predictions.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, it is our like winter season, George, or our spring

season in that it unfolds and we have to make sure we have contingencies in

place and that we have the resources that we need. Sometimes when we do not we

have to find it elsewhere because these are absolutely necessary.

We are anticipating they will be poised and ready to go. As a matter of fact,

as you have probably heard in the news and that, they have been out around even

as we speak.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, they have been worked already. That is a global warming

question.

How many water bombers are in the fleet?

MR. HEDDERSON: Six.

MR. MURPHY: There are six, are there?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, and they are stationed strategically throughout the

Island portion as well as Labrador.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect. Thank you for that.

My hats off to them, too; they are a gutsy bunch whenever they are flying

low. The kids love them.

MR. HEDDERSON: They do.

MR. MURPHY: I want to come over to 2.2.04.

How am I doing for time, Mr. Chair?

CHAIR: You are okay.

MR. MURPHY: Still okay?

CHAIR: You have a couple of minutes.

MR. MURPHY: All right.

Subhead 2.2.03 and 2.2.04, I guess we will stick to that page. I have a

couple of more line items, if I can. In 2.2.03, Building Utilities and

Maintenance, I am just looking to get an explanation on line 03, the discrepancy

there. There was $78,400 budgeted and $140,800 was spent, the revised number for

2011-2012.

MR. CHIPPETT: That would be similar to some of the other cases where the

travel was more requirements than we would have anticipated when we budgeted.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Further down in the line 06, Purchased Services, $30,427,600 was budgeted in

2011-2012. The Estimates this year show $34 million budgeted. The revised

number, though, that was actually spent for 2011-2012 was $32 million. I wonder

if I can get an explanation there.

MR. CHIPPETT: A large portion of that is increase in fuel costs, also

some contractual cost increases under some of our service contracts, provisions

in the contracts. There are also some additional buildings, so we have taken on

additional hangar space in Gander to deal with the new water bombers, and the

Johnson Building and Argyle Building that government purchased, as well as the

Labrador College of the North Atlantic. So, it would be operational costs and

contracts associated with those.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, you mentioned fuel costs, if I can get into that a

little bit. Are most of them using diesel-type heating oils, that sort of thing,

for most of these buildings that you are talking about as regards to fuel cost?

MR. HEDDERSON: Diesel?

MR. MURPHY: Well, diesel, heating oil, in some cases

MR. HEDDERSON: Oh yes, heating oil it would be.

MR. MURPHY: Distillate, anyway, either way.

OFFICIAL: Yes, it would be light oil.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, it is light oil.

OFFICIAL: Light oil would be

MR. CHIPPETT: The fuel of choice.

MR. MURPHY: I do not know if it is the fuel of choice of too many any

more, the way the price is going.

MR. CHIPPETT: No.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, thanks for that.

Line 2.2.04, Rentals, it says, "Appropriations provide for the leasing costs

incurred by the Department and for moving, alterations, modifications and minor

maintenance expenses related to all Government leases."

As regards to the Professional Services in this particular section, the

revised number of $15,000 against a budget of $65,000, and the number is the

same for this year, I am just wondering, for all intents and purposes, how come

you did not spend the money?

MR. CHIPPETT: That is a budget for consulting services in instances, for

example, where we might need to do renos and so on to lease the properties. So

there would not have been a great deal of that in 2011-2012.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, great.

CHAIR: Excuse me, George.

We are going to pass it back to Eddie now. I am sure you have lots more.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, I was just going to finish off that

section with one

more question. Do you want me to just get that one out of the way?

CHAIR: Okay, that's fine. Sure.

MR. MURPHY: Line 06 Purchased Services, $1,573,900 was spent against a

$2.2 million budget for this year.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, that is the hangar we are going to have to look at to

house that fleet that I just talked to you about, the water bombers.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. So that is the one in Gander?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thanks, George.

Eddie?

MR. JOYCE: I am just going to ask some general questions and I am going

to ask the $10 million question: What is the difference in the mixture of the

pavement than what it was before?

You always see the ruts, and it is just not highway pavement. We see it in

the City of Corner Brook. We see it all over the place. Is there a change in the

formula, the mixture, or something?

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, the recipe I guess we would call it, Eddie

has always been a challenge I suppose, depending on the type of road, depending

on where we are in the Province, the aggregate, and everything that goes into

it. Generally, most people compare our liquid asphalt to perhaps our liquid

asphalt of thirty years ago. There is no comparison.

With the price of oil rising in the 1970s and 1980s, the refineries got very

good at taking out a lot of the stuff, right down to the very end of their

process,

whereas probably in the 1960s and 1970s you really got tar. What has

happened now is we, as well as other jurisdictions, are having to put some of

those additives in to put some of that back. It is simple but complicated,

because we look at everywhere we go and we work with the contractors to try and

make sure.

The supply of asphalt to the Province as well was sole sourced in a lot of

ways. Even though two companies were bringing it in, they were using the same

source. Some of our contractors now are looking at alternate sources. As a

matter of fact, we have a case where they are stockpiling. They have their own

tanks and bringing it in, as well as other ways of bringing it in direct.

There is a question as to the quality of the asphalt. Even with the quality

of the liquid asphalt, our lab makes sure that the mixture that goes together is

the best possible mixture that we can get. They are on the job all the time.

I am going to pass it down the line to Gary because he can talk a little bit

more technical about it than I, but I get your gist. We have changed that recipe

over the years and we have had consultants come in. We have done some

experimentation and so on. We are working with the industry because they want a

good product, we want a good product. In some cases we have gotten a fabulous

product, but in other cases we have had to go back over some of the work.

As well, you have to take into account the volumes of traffic now that are

travelling our roads, not only the volumes but the weight. You can well realize

the tractor-trailer of thirty years ago is a different tractor-trailer today and

can carry a lot more weight. We have more volume. We have more numbers of

vehicles on it and heavier weights. It is creating some good challenges for us.

To get back to the original, I did not mean to drift off there. Gary, do you

want to add anything to that with regard to the recipe that might help the

member understand what we have

MR. GOSSE: I think the minister pretty much touched on everything that I

could possibly touch on. The mixtures are changing slightly. We are trying to

find that right mix. It is a fine line between asphalt that lasts a long time

and asphalt that does not rut. You can have asphalt that is very flexible and

lasts a long time; that same asphalt is going to rut. If you try to make one

that does not rut, then it is brittle and you lose material from the surface. It

is a very fine line that you are trying to walk on here.

One of the variables that we have trouble controlling is the liquid asphalt

itself. As the minister said, refineries now are taking out a whole lot more

material. They are taking out the gasolines, the naphthas, the high value

materials. Asphalt was always the leftover stuff from refining oil that nobody

could use. They found a use for it, for putting on roads. Now there are very

little materials left into the liquid itself.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. GOSSE: You are truly left with the leftovers.

MR. JOYCE: It is all over.

MR. GOSSE: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: I know in Corner Brook that it might come from the same

supplier but from different contractors. It is the same thing in Corner Brook,

it is all over.

MR. GOSSE: There are essentially two suppliers of liquid asphalt. Up

until this year there were two suppliers of liquid asphalt in the Province, one

was Irving and one was Ultramar. As the minister said, it was the same product

that both were supplying.

MR. JOYCE: Ultramar used to buy it off Irving, they still do.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, the same source; stored in the same tanks.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. GOSSE: There is another entity that is in the business now. They have

built their new tank farm last fall and are supplying liquid this year.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, thank you.

MR. GOSSE: They are not getting their liquid from the same source.

MR. JOYCE: It is a tough one for everybody, I know, and all

municipalities also, not just the department.

Minister, I am going to ask some questions. How much work was done, say

roadwork was done last year, just a dollar figure?

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, roadwork contains a lot of stuff because you have to

look at the Trans-Labrador Highway; you have to look at the Trans-Canada. There

are different funds. It basically totalled last year, I think up to maybe $230

million.

You go ahead, Gary, and give the member the breakdown.

MR. GOSSE: Last year we had approximately $252 million in roadwork that

we tendered. About $230 million worth of that was completed last year.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. GOSSE: The remainder to be completed this year.

MR. JOYCE: How much carryover this year, about $20 million?

MR. GOSSE: About $20 million.

MR. JOYCE: How much roadwork is going to be done this year or is

committed to be done, if it can be done? I know some of it may be

MR. HEDDERSON: You want the grand total again, do you?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: What are we going to put out this year?

MR. JOYCE: Including the carryover.

MR. GOSSE: It is $225 million.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes and the carryovers are included in that.

MR. JOYCE: There is a decrease in the funding this year.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, but we had some carryovers last year as well.

Every year, traditionally it has been anywhere from $10 million to maybe $15

million. Last year it was more $15 million into

MR. JOYCE: So, there is about $206 million new money this year.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, but you have to put another factor in there, because

the last two years we have been dealing with Igor. That has to be factored in as

well. Last year I think it was $23 million and this year it would be $8 million.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. That includes all road construction, the Trans-Labrador

Highway?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. We usually run $200 million-plus but some of it is

carryover and so on and so forth, and Igor is involved in it.

MR. JOYCE: My next question; if there are some districts that has a bit

of carryover, will there be other funding given if there is necessity shown in

that district?

MR. HEDDERSON: There is necessity shown in every district, and we look at

prioritizing every district throughout the Province if it falls within that

category of priorities. What we do basically, I guess what you are looking at is

that there is some essential work that is in all districts. Those are bridges

and those are culverts, and it could be some road deterioration. Those are

automatically done. Then, once we get that looked at, we look at the next

priority. This is really new work to be done. We look at the priorities.

The principle usually is: the most travelled roads. This year will be no

different from others. I have not gotten to that stage yet, because we are

looking at our carryovers and they are all re-tendered out so they are gone. The

essentials now are what we are working on because we want to make sure that none

of that is ever carried over, so that is the first to go out.

The next wave will be

MR. JOYCE: I am just trying to ensure that the districts that have

carryovers are still being looked at.

MR. HEDDERSON: I do not know. I have not looked at your district, so I

really do not know what you got.

MR. JOYCE: I am not sure if there is carryover there

MR. HEDDERSON:

No, you have a carryover of, I think, two point two, if I am

not mistaken. I stand to be corrected on that.

MR. JOYCE: I am well aware of it.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, I am going to bring up another thing. I think some

officials in your department may be aware of it and it is a concerning the Bay

of Islands. The Frenchman's Cove area I am sure you are aware of what is going

on there. Probably about a year-and-a-half ago there was a water and sewer

project that went through the town, about three kilometres. What happened is

they paved it late, probably early December, and the road right now, from my

understanding, there already have to be patches put into it and there has to be

one or two spots actually dug up.

I am just wondering if the Transportation is going to insist upon Municipal

Affairs to do this road again before it is turned back to Transportation because

it is less than a year-and-a-half and there is a lot of work that needs to be

done to it already.

MR. GOSSE: We are certainly aware of the condition of the road in

Frenchman's Cove where the water and sewer was done. We did give permits to the

appropriate authorities to cut the road. We have not signed off on the quality

of work that was done to take it back at this point.

From where we sit, I think it is safe to say that the proper job with

patching or repaving was supposed to have been done as a part of the water and

sewer, and that was not done.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

What is the next process now because what is happening is the road now is

worse than it was, say, back in September or October. I am sure by the time next

year comes around it almost has to be repaved again.

I do not know what happened, but whatever happened the road which was done a

year-and-a-half ago needs to be repaved now.

MR. GOSSE: I will be speaking with my colleagues in Municipal Affairs and

they are aware of the condition of the road as well.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. GOSSE: They are also aware that the repaving of that road was a part

of the water and sewer program.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

The other question: How many temporary employees are there in Corner Brook

Transportation? I do not want the names. I am just looking for a list of

temporary employees within the last two years from Corner Brook Transportation

and Works? Can I get a list of

MR. HEDDERSON: (Inaudible).

MR. JOYCE: Both, if you can? I can get it under Freedom of Information if

I can do it, if I need it

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, we can do that.

MR. JOYCE: Say, go back two years, if that is all right.

MR. HEDDERSON: In Corner Brook proper

MR. JOYCE: Just the Corner Brook Department of Transportation, either

through the Sir Richard Squires Building or through the Highway Division in the

department itself.

Now, one more question from me. I know it was passed up the line and I do not

know how to get around it. For years, myself and the regional manager or the

assistant regional manager would always jump in the car, go for a drive, see

what spots need to be done, stop off, go through it, and explain technically why

it should be done or not done. The department has stopped that now.

MR. HEDDERSON: I think you are quite aware of an incident that happened

on the Outer Ring Road.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: It involved the death of one of our workers. Naturally, we

did a review of the circumstances, and so on and so forth. From that came a

change. We were doing it all over the place, what you just described. You have

in your area some very high-traffic areas.

We are insisting within our own department that there would be, if anyone is

going out looking at roads or whatever, a plan that has to be put in place. You

meet and there is an indication of where you are going, what you are doing, and

so on and so forth. You have to wear your safety vest and so forth. There is an

onus now on our employees to make sure that no matter where they are, the

short-term, even just getting out of the truck not that they were not doing

it, but we are now insisting.

What has come back is: Well, what do we do when we have visitors? They have

to be treated the same way.

MR. JOYCE: I understand, and I understand the safety part. I will use

Cyril, for example, because Cyril is the regional manager. If I wanted to go

with Cyril now to take a drive, if I wore a safety vest and a safety hat, is it

MR. HEDDERSON: No, what it is, first of all, you know that it ties up

that particular person depending on what you want done. You would have to

present to Cyril, first of all, a request of what you want to do. Then Cyril

would try to work out some sort of a

schedule to make sure that could be done.

MR. JOYCE: So, it is all right if I say to Cyril someday it is too late

now for this year, probably the fall, to look at some of the roads let's two

of us take a drive in my car or Transportation and Works

MR. HEDDERSON: No, it would have to be in Transportation.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

If I committed to wearing the vest and the safety helmet

MR. HEDDERSON: He would not take you out unless you did.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: He takes control of you.

MR. JOYCE: No, I agree with it.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, it is not just a frivolous drive around the

district going here, there and anywhere, but it has to be something specific,

plotted out, and done properly. We are just asking that MHAs and this is for

all MHAs to make contact with the depot

MR. JOYCE: That is done.

MR. HEDDERSON: and then it is up to the individual who you asked to

arrange, if they can, to comply with your request.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

It can be done if we follow the regulations and set out what we are going to

go and have a look at. It would not be a frivolous ride when you go down and

look through the district.

MR. HEDDERSON: What I am saying is that you just cannot go in and say:

Well, listen, we are going to drive every road in the district. You have to plot

out exactly where you are going, the stops that you are doing, so that you can

have a plan before you go. Cyril might tell you that you are not getting out of

the truck.

MR. JOYCE: I know what you mean. So it can be done, if we go ahead and

plan it.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. Again, I still leave it up to the supervisors because

sometimes that can be very time consuming and there is some judgement involved.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, I agree.

Do you want me to keep going, Mr. Chair, or pass it back? I had fifteen

minutes the new me is being nice.

CHAIR: Your fifteen is up now. You still have a few questions.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, I have another (inaudible)

CHAIR: All right, we will give it back to George.

George.

MR. MURPHY: He can finish off

CHAIR: You have several more, you said.

MR. JOYCE: I will finish off; I will keep going.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: As we already know, one of the standard questions that we are

asking all of the departments is how many employees, but I think the Minister of

Finance is going to supply that for everybody.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, that is the Salary Details that you have been asking

for.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: We have provided our information to the minister and, I

guess, it is up to him as to when it comes out.

MR. JOYCE: I am going to ask some very specific questions and it could be

just numbers. I was asked by some of my colleagues on this.

How much money is being spent in 2012-2013 on Phase II and III on the

Trans-Labrador Highway?

MR. HEDDERSON: We have not started Phase II and III.

MR. JOYCE: I think it is Phase II and III of Phase I.

MR. HEDDERSON: Phase I, we are completing from Happy Valley-Goose Bay

let's go the other way from Lab West, Wabush down to Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

MR. JOYCE: For upkeep?

MR. HEDDERSON: Oh, you are looking for the maintenance of Phases II and

III.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, sorry about that minister.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, not a problem.

OFFICIAL: Resurfacing too.

MR. GOSSE: Our maintenance contract is on the Trans-Labrador Highway. It

is all contracted maintenance services there north of L'Anse-au-Loup. Our

maintenance contracts total approximately $9 million a year.

MR. JOYCE: A year?

MR. GOSSE: A year.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

The other part here: Is there any new blacktop being put down the year?

MR. HEDDERSON: You are asking what kind of allocation is going to come

out of the roads budget, right.

MR. JOYCE: Crushed stone.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, again I am working down through that, so I am not

giving a figure here tonight. I have gotten down to the essentials. I do not

know how many essentials we are doing. We are finishing off the Pinware

diversion that is up there. That blacktop will go down this year and that should

be finished. As well, we will be doing some regular maintenance. Whether or not

we are going to be able to add some additional materials, the decision has not

been made yet.

MR. JOYCE: The other question: Has the Province applied to the federal

government to cost-share in Phase II and III of the upgrade?

MR. HEDDERSON: I am going to turn that over to my deputy minister. You

have to have an understanding, we are coming to the end of our Building Canada

Funds and the associated infrastructure funding, that will be in 2014. Of course

on a go-forward basis we are currently now working with the federal government

on a new phase of that from 2014 on.

There have been some preliminary talks, we have been assured that we are

going to get the same level of funding, but the criteria may change as we go

through it. We are currently doing I think what we call a three-phase process as

we work through the negotiations, not only us but right across Canada. Jamie, do

you just want to indicate

MR. CHIPPETT: The focus in the Budget this year of course was the $65.8

million to complete the widening and hard surfacing on Phase I. We do have

federal funding remaining and the current round of Building Canada funding

expires at the end of March, 2016.

We are currently looking at all the potential priorities for that funding.

Once those priorities are set, those priorities will be advanced to take up the

remainder of that federal funding. Obviously, we are aware of the need on Phases

II and III and those are in the mix.

MR. HEDDERSON: Gary, how much do we get for Phase I under Building

Canada?

MR. GOSSE: The total federal contribution on Phase I was $50 million.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, thank you.

MR. GOSSE: The project as a whole will be $300 million.

MR. JOYCE: How much money is being spent in 2012-2013 on Route 510 from

the Quebec border to Red Bay?

MR. HEDDERSON: That is regular road money and, again, those decisions

have not been made yet.

MR. JOYCE: No decisions?

MR. HEDDERSON: No.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

I guess the next question is also; we are asked to ask it: How much money is

being spent on Route 360 through Harbour Breton?

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, these are questions that I cannot answer right now

because we are working down through the budget is working its way through. We

know what we have and we are going back over our priorities and the place that I

am at now is essentials, work, bridges that have to be repaired and culverts put

in, and the next stage will be then to look at the new repairs and new money.

MR. JOYCE: I guess the next question is already answered. Will the

expansion of twenty-four seven snow clearing program in 2012

MR. HEDDERSON: No, I think we have gone through that.

MR. JOYCE: No expansion, okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: The base budget stands on that one.

MR. JOYCE: The next one: What bridges are on the

schedule to be replaced

in 2012-2013, and is there a cost put on to it? What bridges are on the

schedule

to be replaced?

MR. HEDDERSON: I am going to pass this over to Gary. Bridges are not

usually built in a year, so there are some that have already been announced, Ed.

MR. JOYCE: Can you just send us a copy?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

Are there any new ones that they are doing? I know we are doing, under the

essentials, would be wait now, I better not say.

These have not been announced yet, so I have to be careful.

MR. JOYCE: You can send me a copy.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

You can go ahead Gary

MR. GOSSE: One of the larger bridges that we are going to be doing and

the contract is awarded actually is the E.S. Spencer Bridge over the Terra

Nova River on the Trans-Canada Highway. The contract is awarded. Construction is

not started yet. That is pending. Several other bridges along the Trans-Canada

are Robinsons and Middle Barachois. Some of those are in various stages of

completion now. We can give you a list of bridges.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, thank you.

How much money has been spent on the Confederation Building, the

rehabilitation, the outside? Is there a cost estimate on how much has been spent

on that yet?

MR. HEDDERSON: (Inaudible) Keith will take care of that.

MR. BOWDEN: I can have a look.

The bulk of the money spent to date was in the last fiscal year, which is

just under $11 million spent. There was a little bit spent in the previous year.

I do not have that amount, but can get it. The bulk was in the year just ended.

MR. JOYCE: So, how much more work is to be done? Do you know?

MR. HEDDERSON: You can see how much more needs to be done, because we are

doing the whole building, and

MR. JOYCE: Wasn't this one tender that was done?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: How much was the initial tender?

MR. CHIPPETT: (Inaudible) Olympic Construction was for $39 million.

MR. JOYCE: Is it over $39 million yet?

MR. CHIPPETT: There has only been $11 million spent so far. We anticipate

spending more on the entire project. There were significant envelope issues that

were not realized until some of the limestone came off the building. It did not

fall off, when the contractors took the limestone off the building, so it will

MR. JOYCE: I have to ask a question oh, sorry about that, I did not

mean to cut you off.

MR. HEDDERSON: Go ahead, Keith.

MR. BOWDEN: The anticipated cash flow for current fiscal year on the

windows is about $13.5 million, $12 million for 2013-2014, and $6.8 million in

2014-2015 to finish it off that is the windows.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

I have to ask this question: Did it cost extra to get those windows tinted

blue? I got to ask.

MR. HEDDERSON: Any building that is put up now, we do tinting or we get

tinting for obvious reasons, and that is for energy efficiency. So, there was no

extra cost if it had to be purple. It was just that we wanted to make sure that

what we were putting in was not only aesthetically looking good, but also that

it was providing a purpose, which was to contain the energy and lower our heat

bills.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, I am not even going to ask who made the decision.

What is the estimated

MR. HEDDERSON: Why, you do not like the colour? I guess we looked at it

and we wanted to match up something with the beautiful blue skies that we have

here in Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, Minister.

What is the estimated completion date for the hospital in Labrador West, and

what is the total estimated cost of the project?

MR. HEDDERSON: Keith?

MR. BOWDEN: The completion date for Lab West I can get that in just a

moment. That would be later in the current fiscal year for completion, in the

total.

MR. JOYCE: The completion date and the estimated cost, the total cost of

the project? We can come back. You can look it up and we will come back. I will

just go on with some other questions now.

Purchased new equipment, does the department have a budget set aside for new

equipment this year?

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, we have been on track to try and replace our

equipment and to keep it within a certain age.

Gary, do you just want to go down through that?

MR. GOSSE: We have $8.5 million for replacement of heavy equipment this

year. Our plough truck fleet, we have targeted a maximum age of twelve years. We

have met that target and we will retain that target. Heavy equipment, we have

targeted at twenty years of age maximum. We are working towards having all of

our heavy equipment meet that goal.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

This question just popped in my head. Are there safety guards being put in on

the side? Do you remember the issue -?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, that is standard on all of our equipment.

MR. JOYCE: All new equipment?

MR. HEDDERSON: All of our equipment, isn't it? They were installed on all

of our equipment.

MR. JOYCE: Perfect, okay.

Yes, I thought it was.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, it was. I think some of the municipalities did the

same thing.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, perfect. Thank you.

That is a good job, by the way, to have that.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: What is the plan for freight and passenger service to the

North Coast of Labrador in 2012-2013?

MR. HEDDERSON: Freight and passenger? We will start off with the freight.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: The RFP has been let in the sense of we had five proposals

come back in. I will say they were surprisingly all from the same company. We

are working through those right now. It looks like we will be on track. I guess

it comes down to a couple of choices, whether it is going to be a new build or a

boat that is under fifteen years of age.

In the interim, I am pretty well assured that the Astron will begin

the service this June. Now what time in June, will depend on the ice conditions.

Your colleague, Randy, tells me that there is 165 miles out of ice or something.

He is still on the ice up there, so it may be a while.

The passenger is the Northern Ranger , and that was tendered out last

year. Basically, that is in refit right now and will be ready for passenger

service as soon as the ice permits. As well, our Bond , she came off The

Straits run. She is currently in refit now. She should be ready to come back

out, I think a little later in the summer, and she will be there to supplement

the Astron as is needed.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

In the long term, especially where the freight is, is getting a new ferry or

one under fifteen years.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. Well, that is the choices, because that is what the

RFP said. That it had to be under fifteen or a new build, and it is for fifteen

years.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

What is the contingency plan put in place to handle the increased passenger

traffic on the Northern Ranger ?

MR. HEDDERSON: On the Northern Ranger ?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: The Northern Ranger running last year basically

kept up with the passengers. It is just a passenger, and a little bit of

freight. The contingency there, of course, is that if needed we would have to

provide some alternate if it were to break down or whatever, but the Northern

Ranger for the most part has been able to maintain that run with some degree

of capacity.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

What is the status for the long-term plan for The Strait of Belle Isle ferry

service once the Apollo contract expires?

MR. HEDDERSON: The contract is out as of March of next year, and right

now we are following on the heels of the RFP for the freight. We are preparing

now an RFP for that service. Of course, it is too early for me to be talking

about it because we know there is interest out there.

I think you will see much the same as we have offered in the freight service

to the North Coast. It seems to have worked out well. We have some excellent

proposals there, and some of the same will apply to The Straits. We are hopeful

that we can get that out, see what interest is there, look at the proposals and

in short order award it so that they can be ready then for next March.

MR. JOYCE: The same question here for the increased traffic across the

Strait of Belle Isle.

MR. HEDDERSON: I am sorry, that is a correction. Just make that

correction, Jamie.

MR. CHIPPETT: The minister stated March, but it is actually January that

the Apollo contract is up.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: When she comes out the Bond will go in to take care

of the winter thing and that will bring us up to March and then the new contract

will (inaudible).

MR. JOYCE: The same question, Minister, for the Strait of Belle Isle.

What contingency plan is being put in place to handle the increased traffic

across the Strait of Belle Isle, or is it being handled pretty well now?

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, the Apollo has probably worked out to be one

of the finest boats that have been on the Straits. Obviously, age-wise she is

starting to get up there, but the capacity of that boat has been more than

adequate.

There are some peak weekends, like the school-closing weekend in June and now

with the added traffic coming down from Lab West that you do have some peaks,

and it was initially. The reservation system has kind of straightened that out.

As well, the people coming down from that part of Labrador are starting to get a

feel for when they should be coming and so on and so forth.

MR. JOYCE: You feel that it is being taken care of now?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, the problems we have on the Straits are the times of

ice and breakdowns. On a go-forward basis, the RFP going out will include in it

the contingencies and the redundancies that would be associated with that type

of a run.

CHAIR: Excuse me, Eddie, are you ?

MR. JOYCE: I have about three more questions, and they are right quick.

CHAIR: Three more?

MR. JOYCE: No, you go ahead.

CHAIR: We do owe him the time and we have gone over. If you just have

three and you are clueing up, and we can do it within five minutes, then George

will get the rest of the time on the next upward swing, if you want to do that.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, I have that one done.

Oh, here is one: Is Port Saunders still being considered as a possible

destination for the Strait of Belle Isle ferry service?

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, looking at the coast, there is no option there in

the sense of St. Barbe, Port Saunders, and Corner Brook.

MR. JOYCE: Is Port Saunders being considered?

MR. HEDDERSON: They have always been considered. They know that.

MR. JOYCE: Each year is the decision made?

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, we are not going to put any improvements to

infrastructure or even add infrastructure until we know what boat is going in on

the Straits.

MR. JOYCE: So you are going to wait until the new ferry comes in?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, our people will go out and we will see the boat that

comes in. In all likelihood, it is not going to be as tall in the water,

perhaps, as the Apollo or the Bond . We are hopeful that we do not

have to make major renovations or improvements in the infrastructure.

MR. JOYCE: I was thinking, Minister, I know in Corner Brook it is more

for the winter operation.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, it is.

MR. JOYCE: That is what you are talking about also?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

Now, the Bond will not be there for fifteen years. Once we get an idea

of what boat is coming in and the redundancy and maybe the redundancy will

still be the Bond , but we know somewhere down the road we have to replace

the Bond . That is another story in itself because the Ranger is

too small; the Bond is too big. If we could knock the two of them

together and get a mini Bond , we would have our roll-on, roll-off for the

North Coast, and as well we would have a roll-on, roll-off mini Bond for

the winter. Then we could make sure that the alternate port then with the size

of a mini Bond , she could go into Port Saunders even as we speak.

OFFICIAL: Let us call it: The James.

MR. HEDDERSON: What is that?

CHAIR: James.

OFFICIAL: James Bond.

MR. HEDDERSON: Oh.

MR. JOYCE: Minister

MR. HEDDERSON: She is not a 007, I can tell you that.

MR. JOYCE: Two last questions and that is it then. Has your department

done a cost analysis for the air ambulance services in Happy Valley-Goose Bay?

MR. HEDDERSON: We do not do it. That would be Health. Weldon, what is the

story on that?

MR. MOORES: It would be Health.

MR. HEDDERSON: It would be Health.

MR. JOYCE: What?

MR. HEDDERSON: We provide the planes; Health provides the services.

MR. JOYCE: Health provides the services, not

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: We house them, we buy them, we maintain them, and we fly

them. We are directed by Health as to where they go and so on. Any type of cost

analysis about a service, you would have to look in that department.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

My last question for now and I am not sure if you have it all there now:

Would your department be able to give me the cost since the closure of the mill

in Grand Falls, the cost of the security?

MR. HEDDERSON: What is it about $1 million, $500,000?

OFFICIAL: I think it is $450,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is $450,000 or something per annum.

MR. JOYCE: How much?

MR. HEDDERSON: Was it $450,000?

MR. BOWDEN: The $450,000 is for salaries. That is not the only cost

though; there are some other maintenance costs that are around $260,000,

$270,000 a year on top of that, and it is per year. It would be annual costs.

MR. HEDDERSON: Are you just looking at salaries?

MR. JOYCE: No, the costs

MR. HEDDERSON: The full cost of it would be

OFFICIAL: Roughly $700,000 or $750,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: About $700,000 and change.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, perfect.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you, Eddie. That was certainly a long stint. George, all

yours, buddy.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, sir.

It was also amusing and entertaining, Eddie. Thank you for digressing in some

regard, I guess. I have a couple of questions on general policy, just to come

back to a couple of things that Mr. Joyce referred to.

Mr. Gosse, I think you were dealing with this question earlier about finding

the right soup mix. I guess we will call it the soup mix for the roads. I am

just wondering if there has been any consideration as regards to using rubber in

the mix, recycling of tires, that sort of thing

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, we have explored that.

MR. MURPHY: You have explored that one?

MR. HEDDERSON: Gary would be better off telling you about it. It is the

flexibility of course and the changing weather conditions, but I will go to my

technical advice there.

MR. GOSSE: We have had a look at all kinds of options for asphalt,

including the use of rubber. There are so many uncertainties with rubber. I

mean, we are having enough trouble getting what we feel is the right mix right

now or something that is working to everybody's satisfaction. To throw in such

an unknown with rubber various compounds would just be another variable that you

could not control.

One of the big things we looked at for rubber was tire-derived aggregate,

which is used as a fill under the road.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, right.

MR. GOSSE: The amount of tires that we had here in the Province just did

not make it feasible. You could build about two kilometres of road with the

rubber.

MR. MURPHY: Have you put it into any of the roads?

MR. GOSSE: We have not, no.

MR. MURPHY: So you have not put it into the roads. Nobody has done any

kind of study as regards to the effect, for example. What I am wondering about,

what I am getting at is that we have the potential here for something that could

be used in roadwork that may allow government not to revisit a road for X number

of years, in some cases.

MR. GOSSE: If we were going to build a road out of it for that material

that was under the road

MR. MURPHY: Using that purpose the same way they do in other

jurisdictions.

MR. GOSSE: About two kilometres of road, if you ground up all the tires

that we had two years ago, we had enough to build about two kilometres of road.

MR. MURPHY: In the Province?

MR. GOSSE: In the Province.

MR. MURPHY: In the Province, two kilometres of road, okay. That answers

that one, I guess.

The second question: Minister, you talked about bridges earlier, I am

wondering about the bridge over the Exploits, the Bond Bridge.

MR. HEDDERSON: The Bond Bridge is being monitored, as all the bridges are

in the Province. It is high on our priority list. Again, I am not in a position

to announce anything right now, but obviously it will in the coming years be

addressed.

MR. MURPHY: I would guess that the bridge is going to be twinned and

expanded upon, a new bridge put in

MR. HEDDERSON: No, basically the bridges that we are putting back on the

Trans-Canada, Gary, would be

MR. GOSSE: When the Bond is to be replaced, it will be parallel to the

existing structure there now and the old structure will come out. It will stay

that way until such time that the Trans-Canada traffic volumes in that area

warrant twinning.

MR. MURPHY: Has costing or design or anything like that taken place?

MR. GOSSE: We have some preliminary work done.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, so obviously within the next couple of years

MR. HEDDERSON: We are knocking off the bridges. How many have we done so

far? I do not know if we can get a number on the Trans-Canada, but we are

knocking off the bridges on the Trans-Canada on a priority basis. What I mean by

priority basis is that they were all built basically at the same time finish

the drive in '65 and we are monitoring and replacing them as we can. The Bond

Bridge is certainly earmarked for replacement.

MR. MURPHY: What is the recommendation? How much life do we have left in

that bridge?

MR. HEDDERSON: On that bridge, Gary, we do not usually (inaudible)

MR. GOSSE: Structurally, there is not a whole lot wrong with the bridge.

It is starting to show its age. It is narrow. The biggest issue with the bridge

is that it is narrow.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. GOSSE: Everybody speaks about the narrowness of the bridge when you

have two tractor-trailers it is wide enough, but where it is so narrow and so

long, it gives people the illusion that it is very long and narrow.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, but it is on the

schedule for

MR. GOSSE: Yes, structurally it is not bad.

MR. MURPHY: We will look for an announcement in 2014 or 2015.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. MURPHY: That will probably do it.

Okay, thank you.

I am just wondering about the ferry across the Straits to Blanc-Sablon, the

Labrador ferry, or Northern Peninsula. I am just wondering: How come we do not

make that a dedicated service, as part of the Newfoundland ferry system? It is

tendered out. The Apollo and everything is running there now, but is

there some reason that we cannot make that part

MR. HEDDERSON: I guess the history is where that is at, and I am not

entirely sure of the history. I am just looking now for the corporate memory

that was a federal service that was given over to the Government of Newfoundland

and Labrador in the mid-1990s.

Graham might remember that more than I I do remember it, but obviously it

involved Labrador. There was a dollar value attached to it. The feds got out of

the coastal boats and they turned over all of the assets to the Newfoundland

government. That particular run was always contracted out. I am just looking at

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, that was always contracted out, so it continued to

be. That is just the way it is. We have not changed it. The same way with the

freight service to the North Coast

OFFICIAL: That was part of the Trans-Labrador Highway first settlement

agreement.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: I am just wondering how come we do not make it a dedicated

service.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is a dedicated run; it is just that it is operated in a

different way. Our ferry services on the South Coast, we contract those out;

whereas, the St. Brendan's, we have our own crew and a unionized boat. That is

just the way it evolved and we see no reason to change it.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

I guess the government is happy with the service, then, that they are

getting.

MR. HEDDERSON: When you contact out a service, as we do the Apollo

service they have done yeomen service. As with any contractor, there are times

when we have disagreements, but overall that service has been okay and I think

Graham would attest to it. It has come to a point now where the Apollo's

shelf life is at an end and we would like to see a more modern boat. That is

what we are putting out an RFP for.

MR. MURPHY: So if nothing happens as regards to anyone answering that

RFP, is there

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, it is like a tender. If it is not answered, we seek

out then a way to provide that service. I am pretty sure someone will answer the

call, but if it is going to be appropriate or not we will have to determine that

at that time.

MR. MURPHY: I am just wondering. It seems to be that the service is

getting to be well, it is, I think, a necessity as well as some of the

constituents we talked to from time to time, some of the people.

I am just wondering: How come we do not just go out and put a spec for a

government-owned operation to take over that so that people know there is not

going to be any problem as regards to maintenance and we get a dedicated service

run, year-round?

I know ice and everything like that are problems, and ice has been a big

problem as regards to the Apollo . I know she has had her problems because

she is probably at the end of her life. If we put something new in there, it

might be a better chance for commerce to carry on their commerce, if you will,

and for people to get back and forth across the Strait.

MR. HEDDERSON: You realize the RFP going out is a long-term contract,

much the same as we just discussed with your colleague down the road here. It is

an RFP going out. It is a fifteen-year contract. We are asking for a boat that

is less than fifteen years of age, or a new boat. Someone hopefully will answer

the call. We will make sure what goes in there is adequate and that it is and

remains that dedicated service.

There has to be redundancy built in. There has to be ice strengthening and so

on so it can travel through ice. We will put the specifications in. It will come

back to us from the people who use it. Of course, we have been involved with

that now for years, so there is corporate knowledge in our department that I am

hoping we can use to give the best service possible.

As well, long term, we all know that is an area where somewhere down the road

we will look at hopefully a fixed link.

MR. MURPHY: So the fixed link is in the radar between the Northern

Peninsula and Labrador?

MR. HEDDERSON: We have updated our feasibility study and basically put it

in today's dollars. This year we made a commitment to put an overall

transportation strategy in place and that will be part of that strategy as we

project where we are going to be in the next ten years or so.

MR. MURPHY: That is where I was going.

Do you have a copy of that feasibility study? Can we have a copy of that?

MR. HEDDERSON: I guess it would be somewhere along the way there.

MR. MURPHY: So it is possible to get that? Can you give me a time frame

of when we can get our hands on that one and have a look at it?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, I am just seeing if we have a copy somewhere along

the way. We have updated the figures, but you can have what is there.

MR. MURPHY: Is that the same 2004 study? I think that was the year.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, so we can get that readily enough? Okay, perfect, thank

you for that.

Getting back to the roads question again, down on the South of the Avalon

Peninsula, I think the Placentia area, they have had their times with roads here

lately, so much to the point that they have managed to block a few roads down

there in the last week or so. Any update on the road to Cape Ray down in that

area? I think it is Cape Ray, is it? Not Cape Race, Cape Ray down St. Mary's way

anyway.

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, we treat those roads like we treat all the

roads. We look at them from the standpoint of regional or area, our people are

on the road, they do a determination of what kind of maintenance needs to be

done on these roads, the state of them, and they keep it updated.

During this time of the year, we look at what needs to be done. Hopefully

through the maintenance or through reconstruction, we can get to some of the

roads. I can tell you 9,000 kilometres of roads and I think 800 bridges, it is

not going to be done all in the same year.

MR. MURPHY: Any plans for that road though this year?

MR. HEDDERSON: The plans are to make sure that we continue our

maintenance on it. Whether there is going to be any reconstruction that decision

has not been made yet.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

We will come over and do some line items. That is all I have as regards to

that for now. Okay, yes, a couple of line items I think.

As regards to the maintenance of equipment you already mentioned earlier that

your twelve-year target is the target for the age of your equipment. This is a

question for you, Mr. Gosse, or I guess the minister can answer it anyway.

I am just looking at Maintenance of Equipment, 2.3.02 here in the book. I

know that Salaries seem to be relatively stable within a couple of hundred

thousand. I would take it that is probably wage increases based on the dollar

amount. I am thinking as regards to Supplies: $14,630,700 was budgeted, actual

cost of $18,836,600. The Supplies number has been budgeted to be up this year as

well, so I am just wondering about getting an explanation on that.

MR. CHIPPETT: That is fuel costs, primarily.

MR. MURPHY: All right, that answers that one. That is for all of the

vehicles that would be in the fleet or just highway vehicles?

MR. CHIPPETT: That is the fleet and the heavy equipment.

MR. MURPHY: That is everything? All right, thank you for that.

Over in Salaries in 3.1.01, Administrative Support and Design, there was a

budget of $891,800. The actual that was spent was $1,258,500.

MR. CHIPPETT: On the construction projects, the advice we got from the

Comptroller General of the Department of Finance was to re-charge all of our

salaries to the capital account so you can budget the actual cost of every

capital project or every infrastructure project. So, basically at the beginning

of the year when we anticipate progress on projects, we try to anticipate the

salaries involved; the staff that are assigned to those projects.

So, you will see, in several instances associated with infrastructure

projects, variations like that. In this particular case, in terms of the

$891,000 versus the $1.3 million, the re-charges did not quite catch up to what

we had originally planned in terms of the project, so there would be more

dollars left in our current account for salaries.

MR. MURPHY: So, it is somewhat of a rollover?

MR. CHIPPETT: Or a re-profiling, if you will.

MR. MURPHY: Re-profiling would be a good word for it. Okay.

Further down in Purchased Services in line 06, budgeted $39,800, and the

actual spent was $106,800.

MR. CHIPPETT: That was for increased need for repairs to vehicles

MR. MURPHY: Repairs to vehicles?

MR. CHIPPETT: and other equipment.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, because I was just looking over here, the Maintenance

of Equipment, I figured that that might have been costed out over here. Is that

for the whole department $106,800?

MR. GOSSE: It is also for traffics light as well.

MR. CHIPPETT: It is also for traffic lights, Gary is telling me.

MR. MURPHY: So, how many vehicles would be covered under that $106,800?

It does not sound like it is a big amount of money, is it?

MR. HEDDERSON: That is equipment, I think, George, rather than

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: cars or trucks. Traffic lights you usually have to get

people to go out and repair those and so on. Is that what you are talking about,

Gary?

MR. GOSSE: Traffic lights on the harbour arterial, for example,

maintenance of those come out of that account, maintenance of the equipment in

our soils and materials engineering lab, survey equipment and so on.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, that is good.

We are getting into the line items again, now. Page 6.12,

section 3.2.02,

Pre-Engineering. I am wondering if you can give me an explanation as regards the

Salaries in that particular department.

OFFICIAL: Can you repeat the question?

MR. HEDDERSON: That is under Salaries, George, somebody said?

MR. MURPHY: Yes, under Salaries, I was asking for

MR. HEDDERSON: That is Pre-Engineering in 2011-2012. I do not know for

what reason I guess many of the projects in the 2011-2012 had entered the

construction phase of the development and less pre-engineering was required.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, that is good.

Section, 3.2.03, Improvements Provincial Roads, line 05, Professional

Services, and line 06, Purchased Services. I will start off with line 05,

Professional Services: $544,000 needed in the budget, only $350,000 spent,

$450,000 in the budget for this year.

MR. GOSSE: On line 05, Professional Services, that is to cover

consultants' costs, should we have to hire a consultant to do some specialized

work for us. Line 06 is actually our Purchased Services contract payments.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, so line 05 would be

MR. GOSSE: Line 05 is Professional Services. We have to hire a consultant

MR. MURPHY: That would be retainers or money that is already paid out?

MR. GOSSE: No, we do not pay retainers. We pay a consultant on a

fee-for-service basis.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, I mistook that one and the purchased services?

MR. GOSSE: Purchased services are contract payments for tenders and

contracts that are called and awarded.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. Can we have a list of those purchased services?

MR. GOSSE: That would be all of our road contracts.

MR. MURPHY: That is all your road contracts?

MR. GOSSE: Yes, it is all road contracts road and bridge repairs. The

contracts in Current account; there will be additional in the next

section is

the Capital account. So that is Current account expenditures on road maintenance

and bridge maintenance repairs.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, so that is ongoing.

MR. GOSSE: It is all tenders, all contracted.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Carrying on over then to the next page, 6.13,

section 3.2.04,

Canada/Newfoundland and Labrador Infrastructure Framework Agreement, I think we

had a basic explanation from that earlier; I am not quite sure. I just wanted to

get into line 06 and line 01 both of them at the same time. I noticed a big

discrepancy in Salaries; $1.1 million was actually spent against a $320,000

salary uptake for this year.

MR. CHIPPETT: Both of those reflect the progress of already approved

projects under that particular infrastructure agreement.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. CHIPPETT: So in both cases, the projects, some of them would have

been completed, I think, Gary, and the remainder would have been completed this

year. I am pretty sure all of our funding under the infrastructure framework

agreement is associated with approved projects.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. CHIPPETT: So that would be the end of that funding.

MR. MURPHY: So, basically in line 06 we are dealing with the end of these

projects again, and that is why the big discrepancy in the dollar amount?

MR. CHIPPETT: That is correct.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect; we are whizzing right through here.

Section 3.2.05, Canada/Newfoundland and Labrador Infrastructure Framework

Agreement again Salaries are the same this year as projected for last year,

but all of it was not spent for the last year, in line 01.

MR. CHIPPETT: That would be similar to the previous item. It would

reflect construction projects not advancing as far as we would have expected.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, so there is a little of a rollover here again?

MR. CHIPPETT: That is correct.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect. Thank you.

Further down in Purchased Services in line 06 we are dealing with the same

thing there, I guess?

MR. CHIPPETT: Yes, and they would be the actual tenders and contract

costs for the projects.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, thanks.

MR. HEDDERSON: George, on that, in all of this is the Team Gushue

Highway, and I think I heard you reference one day that it was Roads for Rails

money no.

MR. MURPHY: No? Okay, that was Canada

MR. HEDDERSON: Did you explain that, Gary?

MR. MURPHY: Somebody had referred to it as Roads for Rails, the tail end

of the Roads for Rails.

MR. HEDDERSON: What was the last thing that was done on Roads for Rails

that was the Outer Ring, was it?

MR. GOSSE: The last thing done on Roads for Rails, I believe the last

project we finished was actually Veterans Memorial Highway down through

Carbonear.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect, okay.

While we are on the fact of the Team Gushue Highway, too I take it this

would be provincial jurisdiction I have had at least one phone call as regards

to where the road is gone through, and there was no transfer of the land over to

government; there is still an ongoing legal issue there.

So, I am just wondering, according to this family that I was talking to, they

had not sold the land yet, but the land and everything was cleared already. Is

that a normal process, for a road to go through without it being bargained for?

MR. GOSSE: Normally, when a new road is being constructed and we need

properties, we negotiate with the property owners. If we cannot reach an

agreement with the property owner, we do not hang up a major project because we

cannot reach an agreement. We will expropriate. Once you expropriate property,

you post the expropriation and we own it within ten days. It does not mean that

people lose their property. A lot of people think that land is expropriated, we

have lost it, but that is not the case.

We continue to negotiate with the owners. We have the appraisals done. It

could be a year, two years, three years down the road before we finally reach an

agreement on price, but we cannot allow a major public work that is to the

benefit of everybody to be hung up because one or two, or however many property

owners decide to say no, I do not want to let my land go.

MR. MURPHY: I think that is my point. I know that it is only one person,

but the needs of the few sometimes outweigh the needs of the