role="main" class="main-container container js-quickedit-main-content" id="main-content">

November 23, 2009

39th Parliament, 1st Session

< Previous sitting day

Next sitting day >

Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2009-Nov-23 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Monday 23 November 2009 Lundi 23 novembre 2009

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

TAXATION

TAXATION

TAXATION

TAXATION

SOCIAL ASSISTANCE

TAXATION

HYDRO RATES

AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY

SOCIAL ASSISTANCE

HEALTH CARE

FOREST INDUSTRY

ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS

TAXATION

TAXATION

TAXATION

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

TAXATION

KURDISH COMMUNITY

CHILDREN'S AID SOCIETIES

DANFORTH EAST

COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION

PAN-AM GAMES

ADULT LITERACY

NORTHERN COLLEGE

TAXATION

TAXATION

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

DRIVETEST LABOUR DISPUTE

RESOLUTION ACT, 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 SUR LE RÈGLEMENT

DU CONFLIT DE TRAVAIL

CHEZ TEST AU VOLANT

TAXATION AMENDMENT ACT

(LIVE PERFORMANCES), 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR LES IMPÔTS

(SPECTACLES)

PETITIONS

TAXATION

DIAGNOSTIC SERVICES

MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

TAXATION

TAXATION

HISPANIC COMMUNITY

TAXATION

CEMETERIES

TAXATION

RECONSTRUCTIVE SURGERY

TAXATION

RAILROAD BRIDGE

TAXATION

EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE

TAXATION

ORDER OF BUSINESS

OPPOSITION DAY

TAXATION

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TECHNICAL STANDARDS AND SAFETY STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 MODIFIANT DES LOIS

EN CE QUI A TRAIT AUX NORMES TECHNIQUES ET À LA SÉCURITÉ

ONTARIO TAX PLAN FOR MORE JOBS

AND GROWTH ACT, 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 SUR LE PLAN FISCAL

DE L'ONTARIO POUR ACCROÎTRE

L'EMPLOI ET LA CROISSANCE

The House met at 1030.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Good morning. Please remain standing for the Lord's Prayer, followed by a moment of silence for inner thought and personal reflection.

Prayers.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Reza Moridi: It's my great pleasure and honour to introduce Mr. Dong Jun, vice-mayor of the city of Xi'an, China, and the delegation from the city, in the members' gallery.

Mrs. Laura Albanese: On behalf of myself, MPP Reza Moridi and MPP George Smitherman, I would like to welcome representatives from the Kurdish community to the Legislature today. In the members' gallery, we welcome the president of the Kurdish Federation, Nedim Dinar; the president of the Toronto Kurdish Community Centre, Huseyin Pinarbasi; Nazan Simsek, representing the Kurdish Women's Committee; and the president of Kurdish House, Fereydoon Rahmani.

All members of the Legislature are welcome to join us for a reception in room 228-230 following question period.

Mr. John O'Toole: On behalf of my page, Maggie Hutchinson, I'd like to introduce her mother, Anne Hutchinson; father, Scot; and grandmother, Marilyn Hutchinson. They're in the west gallery. Welcome to Queen's Park.

Mr. Paul Miller: I'd like to introduce Latoya Haynes, Mary Slonim and Barbara Kennedy, who are here at Queen's Park for Literacy Awareness Day.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I'd like to welcome members of the Ontario Medical Association. They're here with us today for Doctor Day. Welcome to you all.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: I'd like to welcome back a good friend of the PC caucus, Matt Gibson, here today in the members' gallery.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: I'd like to acknowledge a former member, Bob Frankford.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Yes, we do want to welcome Bob Frankford, who represented Scarborough East in the 35th Parliament. It's a pleasure to have you back to the Legislature today, Bob.

On behalf of the member from Etobicoke—Lakeshore and page Nickolas Barbieri, we'd like to welcome his mother, Anita Groman, his father, Tony Barbieri, and his sister, Jennifer Barbieri in the east members' gallery. Welcome to Queen's Park.

We have with us in the Speaker's gallery a visiting delegation of parliamentarians from the Imo State House of Assembly in Nigeria, led by the Honourable John Egbuchulam. Please join me in welcoming our guests to the Legislature today. Welcome to Queen's Park.

ORAL QUESTIONS

TAXATION

Mr. Tim Hudak: My question is to the Premier. The following words were said 10 years ago from this very seat in the Legislative Assembly: "'Public hearings'; those two words go together nicely if you believe in true democracy...." Do you know who said those words? Dalton McGuinty, as leader of the opposition. Now, as Premier of the province, trying to ram through the biggest sales tax increase in the history of the province, we hear a different tune.

Premier, after six years in office, what happened to the Dalton McGuinty we once knew?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I always appreciate the opportunity. I want to begin by informing my honourable colleague that so far, outside of this House, members of the government have hosted or been involved in some 120 public consultations. We're proud of those.

In addition to that—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock.

Premier.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: That's just on the government side—some 120 public consultation opportunities. I know that members of the opposition have also been involved in their own way, hosting these kinds of fora, and that's a good thing too.

There will be three separate opportunities to vote on this legislation. There has been tremendous opportunity—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The Minister of Revenue will withdraw the comment that he just made.

Hon. John Wilkinson: I withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: Premier, quite frankly, meetings of Liberal fundraisers and caucus meetings don't count. We're talking about going out and talking to the very taxpayers who are going to pay that bill: the senior citizen in Belleville, Ontario, who is going to be forced to pay more for her home heating; the retired couple in London who will have to pay more for gas for their car and the attack on the mutual funds in the province.

There was once a day when Premier McGuinty, in opposition, stood for integrity, when he stood for transparency on bills, when he stood for hearing from the taxpayers who are going to have to foot this massive sales tax grab.

Premier, I'll ask you again: Will you have the courage of your convictions and hold full public hearings across the province of Ontario?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I want to remind my honourable colleague of the position that he used to have on harmonization and corporate tax cuts, which he now rejects. At the Economic Club on April 23 of this very year he said, "To be clear, I believe that there's little sense in allowing two separate governments to apply two separate sets of taxes and policies and to collect two separate groups of sales taxes."

He was right then; he is wrong now. We plan to move ahead with this. We have given tremendous opportunity for the opposition, for Ontarians generally, to engage in this debate. It's an important one. We look forward to moving ahead with it to build a stronger Ontario and to create close to 600,000 more jobs.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: Well, this is clearly not the Dalton McGuinty that people thought they elected six years ago. This is clearly not the Dalton McGuinty who used to stand at this desk and fight for public hearings and consultations across this province. And this is certainly not the Dalton McGuinty who was against the HST in 2008, and now has turned it into a massive tax grab on working families across the province.

The Premier has said, well, this will be an election issue, and I expect it will. But in opposition, Premier, you said, "Democracy isn't just something that takes place once every four years." That's what you said here. But now, as Premier, in his elite crowds, among his Liberal insiders and consultants, he refuses to meet with the seniors and working families who will pay the bill.

Premier, will you hold public hearings in London? Will you go down to Sarnia, will you go to Windsor, will you go to Kitchener, will you go to Belleville and listen to the taxpayers who have to pay this bill?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I thought for sure the honourable member would ask us today about the just-released report from Roger Martin and his task force on competitiveness and productivity, because he asked me about that very report last year at this time. I thought he would do it again. At that time, he specifically said, "Premier, will you commit to following Dr. Martin's good advice and reduce the level of business income taxes as part of a plan to grow Ontario?"

I want to call to his attention the report released just today. It says the following: "The provincial government took a major step forward for Ontario's prosperity in improving our tax regime. By converting our provincial sales tax into a value added tax and harmonizing it with the federal goods and services tax and by reducing our corporate tax rates, the government has improved the motivations for investing in innovation and productivity.

"We have been urging this kind of reform since our first annual report, and we understand the courage required by the government to introduce these changes."

TAXATION

Mr. Tim Hudak: Only Dalton McGuinty would quote from a report that is calling for an increase in the HST even before it becomes the law of the land.

Premier, you have lost touch with the senior citizen. You have lost touch with the hard-working middle-class family. You have lost touch with the students who are looking to find a good job and make their way forward. They are going to get nailed with this massive—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock.

Please continue.

Mr. Tim Hudak: Premier, why don't you go out and meet with these senior citizens? Why don't you go out and meet with these hard-working middle-class families? Why don't you go and meet with these students who are going to get nailed by your sales tax increase?

Premier, you're moving to extend this legislative sitting for an additional two weeks to go up to Christmastime if you so choose. Why don't you use that extra time to have weeks of province-wide public hearings to hear directly from the taxpayers who are going to foot this bill?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Let's hear what else my honourable colleague has said about the HST in the past. In March of this year, he said the following: "In the manufacturing sector, the problem with the PST is it cascades, so every step along the way there's a tax on tax on tax, which raises the cost of goods and particularly punishes exporters. So we understand how [a harmonized sales tax] can help the economy." He was right then; he is wrong today.

Dr. Jack Mintz has specifically said that moving ahead with a package of tax reforms will create nearly 600,000 more jobs. At the end of the day, this is a debate about creating 600,000 more jobs for Ontarians. We're for that. They remain against that.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: Sadly, after six years in office, what working families are seeing is a government that is out of gas, that careens from scandal to scandal, and that has lost its sight on the ball of growing jobs in the economy. The only trick they have left is a massive new sales tax hike on middle-class families and retirees across the province of Ontario. Obviously, after six years in office, the government is growing too comfortable and arrogant in the way they conduct business in the province.

I could not believe it last week. When asked about public hearings, Dalton McGuinty said, oh, they can call talk radio. They can call Bill Carroll on CFRB; they can call Steve Madely on CFRA—as if they're running the province. Working families who are getting stuck with this bill want to say directly to the decision-makers that they cannot handle another massive sales tax increase from Dalton McGuinty.

Premier, will you hold public hearings across the province of Ontario?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I want to take the opportunity once again to thank Prime Minister Harper and Minister Flaherty for their support on this very important issue, on behalf of Ontarians and, I would argue, Canadians as well.

My colleague was adamantly in favour, very much and enthusiastically in favour, of the harmonized sales tax in the past. Now he says he is not, which puts him in opposition to the federal government. It also puts him in some very strange company, I would argue. He now stands locked arm in arm with the Ontario NDP, the BC NDP and the Canada NDP. I guess it's up to my honourable colleague to choose the company that he keeps.

We're actually progressive on this side of the House. We're actually reformers on this side of the House. We're actually for doing those things, even though they might be difficult—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: Well, I stand with the hard-working taxpayers across the province of Ontario who are firmly rejecting your massive sales tax increase.

We have asked the Premier over and over again to go out and face the very people who are going to be left footing this bill, to have public hearings across the province of Ontario.

I remind Premier McGuinty that when he used to stand for transparency, when he used to stand for integrity, when he used to stand for listening to taxpayers, he said, "'Public hearings'; those two words go together nicely if you believe in true democracy...."

But sadly, we see a Premier who has changed after six years in office, a Premier who hangs out with the elite and won't listen to hard-working taxpayers, and a Premier who has contempt for public hearings and listening to taxpayers.

Premier, I'm going to remind you of your words—but quite frankly, Mr. Speaker, if he has that kind of contempt for taxpayers, I see no point in continuing with question period today.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): New question.

TAXATION

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Premier. The Premier continues to ignore tens of thousands of everyday people who are worried about a new tax on gasoline, hydro, home heating, haircuts and much more. Why is the Premier plowing ahead with his unfair tax scheme when the House of Commons hasn't even passed legislation to make it possible?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: There is a—

Interjections.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I sense a greater intimacy with the NDP these days.

Let me just say that we are very much looking forward to moving ahead with this initiative, and I think it's important to understand it in its entirety. We're talking about reducing personal income taxes. We're talking about reducing corporate income taxes for our largest businesses. We're talking about reducing taxes for our small businesses as well. In fact, we're talking about putting in place a support package for small businesses to help them in their transition to the HST. We're talking about, in the end, creating nearly 600,000 more jobs for Ontarians.

I think that when all is said and done, there is nothing to which we attach greater value today, in the face of a global recession, than a job creation strategy. That's fundamentally what this is all about. I know that the NDP in fact support anything that we can do to create more jobs for Ontarians.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: In backroom meetings, Harper Conservatives were very excited about shifting the tax burden onto everyday people. They were okay with sticking it to people who will pay 8% more to heat their homes and fill up on the way to work while businesses get a no-strings-attached tax break worth billions and billions of dollars, but now that same Harper Conservative government has seen the public anger. They're starting to scramble, to distance themselves. The Premier is at the altar, but there's no one rushing to his side. How can the Premier be so sure that the HST is actually going to get through the House of Commons when no party in Parliament wants anything to do with it?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: We look forward to moving ahead with this initiative because we believe it's the right thing to do. There's an important

section to be found in Roger Martin's latest report, his eighth annual report, and I'd refer my colleague to page 50. It's called "Most HST myths do not stand up to scrutiny." Under the column of myths, which are rebutted in here, and I recommend it to my colleague, myths include:

"—increases prices paid by consumers;

"—is an excuse for producers and service providers to gouge consumers;

"—raises costs for small businesses;

"—hurts lower-income Ontarians;

"—is a tax grab;

"—is 'business friendly';

"—should be delayed until the recovery is under way."

Each and every one of those myths is effectively rebutted on that page and I would strongly recommend that to my colleague, on page 50 of the latest competitiveness and productivity report.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: I'm going to try once more to get an answer out of this Premier. There's a good reason to believe that the minority government in Ottawa may actually reject the harmonized sales tax. Conservative MPs are scrambling to distance themselves from this unfair tax, and Michael Ignatieff has more fires to put out than Smokey the Bear. His federal Liberals were asked if they were going to support the HST legislation just last week and they would not commit to it.

Jack Layton's New Democrats of course have made their opposition to this tax crystal clear for all of the people here in Ontario and BC to know where we stand. If federal legislation comes crashing down on the McGuinty government, what's the Premier's plan B?

TAXATION

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is to the Premier. People are asking the Premier to listen. Here's what they're saying: Jack Rankin writes, "I think it's time you listen to the folks who put you in your jobs."

Marilyn Cephan writes, "It seems to me that our provincial and federal government leaders are dictators and they like to patronize us."

The Premier's tax scheme is unfair. The federal Parliament might not even let him enact it. Isn't it time the Premier takes a step back and actually listen to the people instead of ramming this through as fast as he can?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I know we've spent a lot of time talking about the HST, and that's important, but there are other aspects to our package of tax reforms that are worthy of consideration as well. I only wish that my honourable colleague would draw the public's attention to those from time to time. Those include the following: 93% of Ontarians will get a permanent personal income tax cut; 2.9 million families and individuals will get a new annual tax credit of $260 per person. That is permanent. Additionally, there are transition payments: $1,000 for the typical family and $300 for the typical individual. Taxes won't change for 83% of consumer purchases.

Those are all dimensions to our package of tax reforms that my honourable colleague has not referenced in her attacks on the HST. Having said that, this comes down to 600,000 more jobs for Ontario families. I can't think of anything more important than us coming together to stand up for those 600,000 jobs.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Maybe the Premier hasn't noticed, but it's the HST that the people of this province are talking about. People right across Ontario feel that their basic right to be heard is being ignored by their government. The Premier refuses to listen to their concerns about the HST; the Prime Minister denies having anything to do with this unfair tax.

Sandra Dawson of Port Dover wrote to tell me this: "Please let the Premier know that we are against the HST ... there is no listening going on ... just disrespectful and patronizing repeated attempts at convincing us of what is good for us."

Instead of telling people what to think, why won't the Premier listen to what people have to say?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: The fact is, we've done a lot of listening, but there comes a point in time—and this is the responsibility of leadership—when you have to take action. The single greatest request that we've been receiving from Ontarians is to build a stronger Ontario and make sure there are more jobs.

The reports are in now that our tax package will do a number of things, including create nearly 600,000 more jobs. It will result in incomes going up by 9% more than they otherwise would have. It will result in $47 billion more being invested in our businesses than otherwise would have been the case.

These are reports that have come in to us from experts. We have listened long and hard. We now understand what we need to do to grow a stronger Ontario, and particularly to create 600,000 more jobs. It's the right plan at the right time for the right people. That's why we're moving ahead with it.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Well, what the people of this province are telling me is that they want a government that listens. Instead, they have a Premier who ignores them and a Prime Minister who avoids them.

Rick Bagshaw of Aurora writes this: "I suggest that you drop the legislation and start listening to the citizens of Ontario. Remember us; we are the ones who put you in power to lead a responsible government."

Ron Arnold of Port Rowan adds this: "Please open your eyes and ears and listen to the people before it's too late."

The tax scheme hasn't passed in the federal Parliament, and it may not. There is no need to rush this through. Will the Premier take a step back and agree to have public hearings so that he can listen to the people across this province?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I don't think I need to remind my honourable colleague that in the course of this terrible global recession, we've lost over 200,000 jobs in Ontario. I think the single most pressing and urgent need for all of us here is to find ways to strengthen our economy and to create jobs. We understand, on the basis of all the advice that we've received—and we have done a lot of listening, but at some point in time, you've got to turn the listening into leadership. You've got to take action. That's what we've been charged with here in government, and we will not shrink from that responsibility.

We have found a way. It's to be found in our package of tax reforms. It's about permanent personal income tax cuts. It's about corporate income tax cuts. It's about cuts for our small businesses. It's about putting us on a stronger, more competitive, sustainable foundation. Most importantly, it's about creating 600,000 more jobs, and it's about building a bright future for our children.

SOCIAL ASSISTANCE

Mr. Michael Prue: My question is for the Premier. Last December, as part of its anti-poverty strategy, the McGuinty government promised to initiate a review of our failing social assistance programs. Today, almost a year later, the government has not yet released any terms of reference for the review, it has made no indication of how it will proceed, it has made no indication of who will lead the review, and it has not said whether people living in poverty can be involved. Surely they weren't involved in the last round.

Why is the government dragging its feet while more and more people fall into poverty, and despair grows across this province?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Community and Social Services.

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: The member asks a very good question. Yes, indeed, we are working closely with our partners in the poverty reduction area to develop the standards for this review. I will say to you, we will be announcing soon what we will do and how we will proceed, so please keep posted and we will announce it soon.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Michael Prue: It seems that the government is paralyzed on this. It's taking a whole year to set parameters, never mind discussions of any consequence. The government has fumbled and delayed for a full year while more and more Ontarians suffer from a perverse and hurtful social assistance system that actually traps people in poverty and in sickness by stripping people's assets to almost nothing, by forcing a single adult to try to survive on $572 a month, and by treating people as though they have committed a crime by being poor and on welfare.

When will this government finally take the action it promised, to make social assistance a hand up rather than a lifetime punishment?

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: I would say this: I don't agree with the comment of the member of the opposite party. I think this government has been listening and has been acting to help those in poverty. At the end of this month and the beginning of December, the people on social assistance and ODSP will have seen an increase of 11% since we came into power, we have moved forward with the Ontario child benefit, which will take the children out of the social benefits area, and we have increased the minimum wage. We will be building affordable housing, and in the school area, we have invested a lot to help children—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

TAXATION

Mr. Joe Dickson: My question is to the Minister of Revenue. Today at Queen's Park we are being visited by Laubach Literacy Ontario, which is a member of the Ontario Literacy Coalition. The Ontario Literacy Coalition is a group that exists so that all adults in Ontario reap the full benefit of literacy. This will be accomplished efficiently and effectively with the greatest return on investment possible. They support over 250 members, and more than 46,000 adult learners are served by the 200 adult literacy programs supported by the OLC.

While the HST was introduced to create jobs and make our economy stronger, it is important to make sure that we don't forget the fundamentals. What will the HST mean for books and other reading materials, such as newspapers, in Ontario?

Hon. John Wilkinson: I want to thank my colleague for the question, and we want to welcome our friends today, who are great proponents of literacy in the province of Ontario. What I can share with you is that on July 1, when the HST comes into being, the provincial portion of that tax will still exempt books and newspapers. That's something that they enjoy today and it's something that they will continue to enjoy, because literacy is a fundamental building block of our economy.

Our plan is designed to help create some 600,000 more jobs in the province of Ontario, jobs that are good-paying jobs. Good-paying jobs require people to have those literacy skills that are required in the 21st century. It's why we've decided to make that exemption.

I think all Ontarians understand that the world has changed, and it is important for us to change with it so that we can prosper in the 21st century. That's why literacy is so important. It's why we've decided to put in that exemption. Despite the cost; we understand how very important it is to Ontarians—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Joe Dickson: The Ontario Literacy Coalition states that leading researchers are highlighting the connections between literacy, employment and the economy. Measures like exempting books are a step in the right direction.

No one chooses to struggle in supporting their family, and we can support Ontario families by helping people to get back to work. Income tax exemptions, tax credits and transitional cheques will help struggling families as we move to create a more competitive system.

Targeted exemptions will greatly assist families in both the short and long terms. These exemptions include children's clothing and footwear, all infant and child care seats, diapers, feminine hygiene products and meals under $4. What will these measures mean for low-income Ontarians?

Hon. John Wilkinson: I want to say, particularly to those citizens in our great province who are struggling with the fact that they have a low income, that we have ensured that our tax package is designed to assist them and to actually put them in a better position. Let me tell you how we're going to do that.

Yes, indeed, we are harmonizing the sales tax. We're taking that money and permanently cutting income taxes for 93% of Ontarians. We're not cutting income taxes at the top end, I say to my friend; we're actually cutting taxes on the first $37,000 of income. But for those people who are struggling without a job, they know that today they receive the GST rebate from the federal government; that's some $240, and $140 for a child. On July 1, that will be more than doubled. We'll be adding $260, tax-free, for every individual in that family, adult and child.

Our tax reform package means that some 90,000 lower-income Ontarians will not pay provincial income—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

HYDRO RATES

Mr. Peter Tabuns: My question is for the Minister of Energy. Across the province, hydro users are being hit with billions of dollars in extra charges due to something called the provincial benefit. On some hydro bills, the benefit is clearly marked; on other bills, it's completely hidden. At a time when the economy is struggling and hard-working Ontarians are about to be hit with an 8% tax surcharge on their home heating bills, why is your government hiding a hydro surtax that's costing ratepayers billions of dollars?

Hon. Gerry Phillips: I appreciate the comment, and I think the public probably would appreciate this message on pricing: If you look at pricing on electricity over the last five years for both industrial and residential, it essentially is unchanged over a five-year period; I think the member probably knows that. So in terms of electricity prices: unchanged over a five-year period.

One thing I will agree with him on is that the language in the bill is frankly not as clear to the consumer as I think it should be, and I want to assure the member that our ministry and I are looking at that to find a way that would make it clear. But on electricity pricing I say again that over five years, for a variety of reasons I can get into in the supplementary, it's essentially unchanged. That's been good news for the consumers and, frankly, good news for businesses.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Minister, that's not what my constituents are telling me about their hydro bills. If you're actually going to be looking at this, when are you going to introduce the changes so that everyone can see how they're being hit by this hydro surcharge?

Hon. Gerry Phillips: I'm sorry that is what your residents are hearing, because the fact of the matter is, that is what has happened to electricity prices. I just urge them, really, to take a good look at their bills.

Again, I am looking at this as we speak. I'm determined to find ways that the public—you know, we have retailers out there doing business with the public. I'm anxious to find a way to make our bills even more clear for the consumer. I think they have a right to understand in clear terms what they're buying and what the bill contains. I can't give you a date, which I'd love to do, but I will tell you that we will deal with this in months, not years.

But on pricing, again I say: Have the people who talked to you look at their bills closely, because over a five-year period, frankly, for a variety of reasons the price has not gone up.

AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY

Ms. Leeanna Pendergast: My question is for the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs. Just after Thanksgiving, we heard that discussions were ongoing with regard to a policy that prevented large-scale organic turkey farming in Ontario. Organic farming is a booming area of the agriculture sector. I have many organic turkey farmers in my riding of Kitchener—Conestoga, and so, naturally, I was really disappointed to hear the difficulty of Ontarians in obtaining fresh, Ontario-grown organic turkeys.

I've heard that a decision has been made that will be well-received by Ontario consumers looking to purchase organic turkeys in the upcoming holiday season. Minister, could you please inform the House of the decision that has been made and the impact it will have on Ontarians who are looking to purchase Ontario organic turkeys in the holiday season?

Hon. Leona Dombrowsky: On the weekend, I was very delighted to learn that the Turkey Farmers of Ontario have decided why it is so very important to implement policies that will enable Ontario consumers to actually purchase Ontario organic turkeys.

Now, we're delighted that in the province of Ontario we have many wonderful agriculture sectors, and the organic sector is one of the most successful. In fact, it increases by double digits year over year, so there's a tremendous demand. Ontarians are looking for Ontario organic products. There was a challenge there. The Turkey Farmers of Ontario had regulations in place that prevented the production of organic turkeys in Ontario and they changed that. They announced they will change that, and we congratulate them for that. That's a very important move.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Leeanna Pendergast: Thank you, Minister. A report by the Organic Trade Association in 2008 noted that organic sales have been growing at an enormous rate of 17% to 23% each year over the past 10 years. However, traditionally organic foods in Canada have been imported. With this dramatic year-over-year increase in organic food sales, this sector presents abundant opportunities for Ontario farmers.

Minister, what is this government doing to assist Ontario farmers to transform their operations to take advantage of, how shall I say, to gobble up, this growing opportunity?

Hon. Leona Dombrowsky: I'd like to thank the honourable member for her question and for her humour in this, but this is a really important issue for turkey farmers and for all organic producers in Ontario.

As I indicated, it is a very healthy sector. We have partnered with the organic sector on a number of initiatives. During the past two years we've invested $400,000 in the Organic Council of Ontario to help identify needs and develop this sector. Some of these funds are now helping farmers transition to producing organics.

Last year we invested more than $500,000 in three new research projects for organics. OMAFRA will continue to invest in our own ministry so that we have people on staff to better support those in the organic sector who are looking for advice, support and direction as well.

SOCIAL ASSISTANCE

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Premier. In Hamilton, the welfare caseload has risen by 2,682 households since October 2008. High unemployment and a lack of good jobs have forced thousands more families to seek help from food banks and social assistance programs in my city. Hamilton city council has put more than half a million dollars into a food voucher program for a growing number of people in need. Since it is clear that Ontario's poverty reduction strategy is leaving many Hamiltonians without enough to eat, my question is a simple one: What is the McGuinty government going to do to come up with a more permanent solution for the people who are suffering in my community?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I've got good news for the people of Hamilton on a number of fronts. I had the opportunity recently to speak with the mayor of Hamilton, and I congratulated him for the support he gave us in landing the Pan Am Games. That's going to result, in the city of Hamilton alone, in a new swimming pool at McMaster University, a new stadium and a velodrome, which will be the best of its kind in northeast America.

Why is that important to the people of Hamilton? Because it means jobs, jobs and jobs. We're talking over $200 million in infrastructure investment, with a deadline. It's got to be done by 2015.

On top of that, we're going to move ahead with a package of tax reforms that will create some 591,000 more jobs. My honourable colleague knows that the HST in particular will benefit our manufacturers, and if there's a community in Ontario which is heavily dependent on manufacturing, it is the city and the people of Hamilton. That's one more reason for us to work together to move ahead with this package of tax reforms.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: One year ago there were 10,000 recipients; today there are nearly 13,000 recipients, and that number continues to climb. In December 2008, the McGuinty government promised to review social assistance rates, but nothing ever came of it. Hamilton has $16.5 million of social services bills that belong to the provincial government, not including the cost of the emergency food measures they're taking right now. When is this McGuinty government going to announce its plan to assist municipalities like Hamilton with their growing welfare rolls?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: My honourable colleague is well aware that Hamilton, like Ontario, like Canada, like North America, has not been sheltered from the terrible consequences of a global economic recession. It has affected all of us. But we have done a few things to help. For one thing, every single year we keep increasing the rates of social assistance. We've also accelerated the Ontario child benefit so that it is there for parents in our low-income families in a more meaningful way. Beyond that, of course, we are moving ahead with a package of tax reforms which are designed, centrally, to create more jobs.

If you ask the people of Hamilton, ask the mayor of Hamilton and ask Hamilton city council what it is that they need in their city, they will tell you that they want a stronger economy that creates more jobs. That is what we're all about. That was what the Pan Am bid was all about. That's what our HST package is all about. It's about creating more jobs for the people of Hamilton and, indeed, all the people of Ontario.

HEALTH CARE

Mr. Khalil Ramal: My question is for the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. Health care continues to be the issue I hear from my constituents most frequently. They want good-quality care for their loved ones, close to where they live and when they need it. It's crucial that we continue to strive to reduce wait times for key surgeries so that Ontarians can get the care they need as fast as possible and move on with their lives.

As the minister knows, our hospitals in London are health care leaders and have made good progress in reducing wait times.

Could the minister please update this House on the progress made to provide faster care for Ontarians across the province and in London?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I agree with the member that we need to do more to continue to reduce wait times in surgeries, but let's take a minute to recognize how far we've come.

I'm pleased to report that not only did Ontario get five As in the Wait Time Alliance's report card this past June, but a recent Fraser Institute report released last month, called Waiting Your Turn, said Ontario has the lowest average wait times in Canada for key surgeries.

We're making real progress on wait times across the province: Wait times for hip replacements are down 185 days; knee replacements are down 262 days; cataract surgery is down 197 days. In London, hip replacement wait times are down 328 days at LHSC and knee replacements are down 450 days. That's well over a year of enjoying life, playing with grandkids—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Khalil Ramal: Another area of importance for my constituents is how long they have to wait to get emergency medical care when they need it. When people have serious health issues that warrant a trip to the emergency room, the last thing they want to do is wait for hours, with the possibility that their condition can deteriorate.

I know that a lot of work has been done to provide enhanced services in my community so that only people with very urgent issues have to go to the emergency rooms.

Can the minister please explain what the government is doing to reduce wait times in emergency rooms?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Reducing emergency room wait times is a top priority for us. Last winter, we set ambitious wait times for our emergency departments. We also began posting the amount of time that Ontarians spend in ERs on our website. We did it because we govern on the principle that if you track it, you can improve it.

We are improving ER wait times. Compared to one year ago, Ontario hospitals have reduced ER wait times by nearly an hour. That's five million hours of time saved—one hour for every visit an Ontarian made to an ER over the course of a year. When you break it down, five million hours is about 570 years in saved time. That's meaningful to Ontarians. We're making progress and we're determined to keep on making progress.

FOREST INDUSTRY

Mr. Howard Hampton: My question is for the Minister of Northern Development, Mines and Forestry. A couple of weeks ago, I asked the minister what the government could do for the 2,000 laid-off sawmill workers from across northwestern Ontario who, under the laws of Ontario, are entitled to severance pay and termination pay from their employer, the Buchanan Group of Companies, but who can't get paid. Regrettably, the minister had no answer.

Today, I want to ask about the dozens of contractors from communities like Geraldton, Manitouwadge, Nipigon and Armstrong who are owed hundreds of thousands of dollars by the Buchanan Group of Companies for contracts they have completed but can't get paid for.

Is the McGuinty government prepared to do anything for those thousands of laid-off workers who can't get paid and those dozens of contractors who can't get paid either?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: As the member will know, we've been working very closely with all those involved in the challenging aspects of the forestry sector in northern Ontario. One thing I can say is that I'm very pleased that our government has been able to offer a conditional $25-million term loan to Terrace Bay Pulp to help finance the restart of the mill, and indeed, if that is successful, that may augur well for all those involved in the forestry sector in the north.

It's important to be clear that our offer of support is only one part of the equation in terms of the restart of the mill. It's conditional on Terrace Bay Pulp securing additional financing and also completing the court actions needed to allow them to exit from the CCAA process. But unquestionably, this is good news for the Terrace Bay-Schreiber area and good news ultimately, potentially, for people who are employed by Buchanan Forest Products through the Terrace Bay Pulp operation, and we're very hopeful this will lead to more good news.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Howard Hampton: The minister may be proud of that announcement. I have to tell him that it's not going to do anything to put people back to work, even in Terrace Bay, for the next three months, and it's certainly not going to do anything for the laid-off sawmill workers in Sioux Lookout, in Atikokan, in Thunder Bay, in Dubreuilville, nor the contractors in Manitouwadge or the contractors in Dryden or any of these other communities.

Minister, these are people who need to pay the bills. They have children to feed. They have rent to pay, mortgages to pay. Some of them have been out of work now for two years. They're legally owed this money. You've been very generous with the Buchanan Group of Companies—I think the total now is up to $120 million—but what are all these workers supposed to do? How are they supposed to pay their bills? Where is the provincial government in enforcing the provincial laws that say these people are entitled to be paid for work that they have done?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: Clearly, the best solution for all is to get the forestry sector and the operations back up and running. We are hopeful that with this offer of conditional support to Terrace Bay Pulp, which is an important asset—I mean, this is an operation that really is an anchor in terms of the use of wood fibre between Sault Ste. Marie and Thunder Bay, and again, the member for Kenora—Rainy River knows that well. We are obviously hopeful that indeed they are able to move forward and get further financing. Further, we are hopeful that that will move us towards a possibility and the opportunity for other operations to open up for the company as well.

There is no doubt, and the member knows this well, that it has been an extremely challenging time. I've worked very closely with the subcontractors who have been involved, worked very closely with all the companies, in fact, that have been going through this very difficult time in the forestry sector, and we're doing everything we can to continue work. But this is good news, this is potentially very good news, and ultimately we hope it will lead to some very positive things in terms of having jobs back for many people in northwestern Ontario.

ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS

Mrs. Linda Jeffrey: My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources.

In August, I had the good fortune to travel to Ontario's north, visiting the communities of Sioux Lookout, Thunder Bay, Timmins and Chapleau with the committee on general government for hearings on both the Mining Act and the Far North Act. While there, the committee heard from many First Nations representatives who stressed the importance of having these communities consulted in the decision-making process of lands being developed in the far north. I remember Councillor McKay of the First Nations saying, "What you call the 'far north' is not the far north to us; it is our home.

We need real participation in decision-making." It's vitally important that First Nations communities have a key role in the decision-making process of how land is used in the far north.

Minister, I understand you've just recently returned from a trip to the northern Ontario community of Pikangikum. Can you please tell the House how your ministry is considering consulting and working with this First Nations community on land use planning?

Hon. Donna H. Cansfield: I'd like to thank the member for the question. It is absolutely vital that the First Nations are involved in the community land use planning, and that's why the government introduced the far north legislation. If that legislation is passed, in fact, the First Nations take the lead role in making a determination on that land use planning.

We were fortunate to work with Pikangikum First Nation as they went through with their planning called Keeping the Land, which was finalized in 2006. Since then, we've been working with Pikangikum First Nation as they move forward to implement their plan. We just jointly signed the terms of reference to support the protected areas and the forest management planning in the Whitefeather Forest. This actually will ensure that the planning takes place and that by 2012 we will have a plan in place.

But this also means that a total of 36% of the Whitefeather Forest and a total of—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mrs. Linda Jeffrey: The residents of Ontario's far north live beyond our traditional road and rail network. Some of these residents have criticized the Far North Act. As with elsewhere in the province, a common challenge is how to balance economic activity with environmental protection.

Minister, climate change is a real issue facing our world today. I understand that this proposed legislation will work to protect vast amounts of boreal forest and peatlands, which in turn will act as a large carbon sink and help to guard against global warming.

However, how will the Ministry of Natural Resources ensure there's a balance between adequate protection as well as adequate opportunity for economic development? Will the minister state for the record how her ministry will work with First Nations to find a balance between ecological protection and economic activity?

Hon. Donna H. Cansfield: I can answer this quite plainly: We will ensure that there's a balance of protection for the environment and economic activity by working closely with First Nations communities as they develop their community-based land use plans.

There are eight First Nations communities that have established land use planning teams, and they are making very significant progress toward the preparation of their community-based land use plan. In total, there are 25 First Nations communities at various degrees of engagement with the Ministry of Natural Resources, and this level of engagement ranges from initial dialogue right through to the land use planning terms of reference.

I was delighted to be able to have a chance, as you heard, to sit down with Pikangikum First Nation in our extraordinary far north to discuss how they're going to proceed with their land use planning. I'd like to commend, in particular, elder Oliver for his vision as to where he felt that his First Nation needed to go, and for the—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

TAXATION

Mr. Rosario Marchese: My question is to the Premier. You probably know that there are approximately one million condo owners in Ontario and most of them are in the area of Toronto. I think you probably know as well that there are many young people and many seniors living in these condos.

You might also have heard that property managers say—and they all agree—that the condo fees are likely to increase anywhere from $27 to $32 a month. Have you thought about the economic implications this is going to have on those young people and seniors who own a condominium?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Revenue.

Hon. John Wilkinson: I want to thank the member for the question. We have taken that into account. It's why our income tax reforms are specifically geared to seniors on a fixed income and people with low income.

I want to say particularly to those who own condos, it is true that a condominium charges a condo fee that's provided by the property management company and that there are services that will attract a higher fee, but for every one of those services that the condo corporation engages in, all of those services—the price of business for those companies is going down because of our tax reform package.

So it is important for consumers to be aware—and I say that particularly for those who are on condo boards—to say to the people who are running those condominiums, "Wait a minute. We understand about this HST, but let's not forget the other side of the equation."

It is true for all of those companies. Their cost of administration is going down, their taxes are going down, and for the very first time, they'll be able to claim input tax credits on the PST that they have been paying. So it is important—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Rosario Marchese: For the condominium owners, there is no other side. They know one side, and that is that they're going to get whacked by an additional $27 to $32 a month.

Eighty per cent of the condo fees connect to a service that's going to be charged—80%—and the other 20% is for reserve funds, and those too are going to go up.

We have been having meetings in my riding, and they are all very worried about the effect it's going to have on their ability to pay the extra $27 to $32 a month.

This is going to be devastating. It's not wrong, Minister of Finance: This is going to devastate a whole lot of people who live in condominiums. They will not be able to afford it, and nothing you have said so far alleviates the fact that they're going to get whacked, and whacked seriously.

Have you seriously thought about how this is going to affect them year after year, from now till the end of time?

Hon. John Wilkinson: I would say to the member that he may want to read an independent report by TD Economics that was penned by Don Drummond, a leading economist in this country. He says that within the first year, some 80% of business savings will be passed through to the consumer. It's not only at Zellers where the lowest price is the law, I say to the member. People do not willingly overpay for anything. It is important for the consumers—those who own a condominium, who express their will through the property manager—that they expect them to negotiate the best price.

For all of those companies that will say to them, "We must charge you more for tax," each and every one of them, their price is going down. That's why Don Drummond has said that for the entire economy, some 80% of that will be passed through, but only if the consumer is aware.

I say to the member, the message that one has to get to your constituents is the importance for them to understand that they must demand those lower prices. They have that power—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

TAXATION

Mr. Mike Colle: A question to the Minister of Finance: In the western part of my riding, in the Caledonia-Dufferin corridor, I have a lot of small manufacturers. Over the last few years, I have to tell you what has happened: There has been de-industrialization taking place, with a lot of small factories closing down.

What I'm really interested in knowing is, this new change in the single tax, the HST, how is it going to try and—the NDP are laughing. These people have lost their jobs; they can't pay their rent; they can't pay their mortgage. It's nothing to laugh at. They're saying, "What can the government do?"

Interjection.

Mr. Mike Colle: The former leader of the NDP thinks it's funny.

These people want to know what our government is doing with this new single tax to try and bring some of the jobs back. What can they do to maybe hold on to some of these jobs? How can—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Minister?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I thank the member for the question and for his genuine concern about the future of our economy and job creation. The tax package we've brought forward is indeed intended to create jobs. Now we have a range of economists of all political stripes saying that this package will create jobs: Mr. Mintz says some 591,000; a variety of other sources make the same kind of claim. It's backed up by economists such as Hugh Mackenzie and Jim Stanford, from the other side.

Canadian vehicle manufacturers, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters have all endorsed this package because it will reduce the tax burden overall, not only for businesses but for consumers. It will make our tax system more efficient, and it will, in fact, create jobs. That's the purpose of it.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Mike Colle: Especially with the manufacturing jobs, supposedly right now the manufacturer is paying double and triple PST. It gets replicated. In other words, they don't pay it just once, they pay it two or three times. So if we bring in this new tax reform, is it going to result in them lowering their production costs or administrative costs? Will it mean they can actually stay in Ontario, stay in my riding and provide hope for people who right now don't know where to turn for these jobs?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: The overall package, including the harmonized sales tax itself, will in fact reduce the tax burden to businesses and lower prices for consumers.

Roger Martin, in his task force on competitiveness, put out five myths about the HST.

The first myth is that it will increase prices paid by consumers. The reality is prices will come down as manufacturers and retailers pay lower sales taxes. There's evidence of this from eastern Canada, sir.

The other myth: This will raise costs for small businesses. In fact, costs will decrease as small businesses recover sales taxes they have to pay on goods and services they purchase, and it lowers administrative costs.

The third myth: This is a tax grab. The fact is, increased revenue from the HST is matched by reductions in tax cuts and tax credits. The effect is revenue-neutral.

This is the right plan to create jobs. This government, this party—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

TAXATION

Mr. Peter Tabuns: A question for the Minister of Culture: There was supposed to be a permanent PST exemption for theatres that was crushed with the introduction of the HST. This is going to hurt theatre all over this province. What are you going to do about it?

Hon. M. Aileen Carroll: I understand that the honourable member is coming forward with a private member's bill to ask the government to extend tax credits to live productions here in this city akin to our tax credits that exist for TV and film production. I think that this is an issue he wants to see brought forward to the House, and we'll do so. It will give members of the House the opportunity to discuss the relative merits of that suggestion, so I would await such legislation.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: I don't think the minister heard the question, but I will go along in the vein that many musicians represented by the American Federation of Musicians play weddings and parties. They know they can't pass on that HST; they're going to have to eat it. How are you going to help freelance musicians who are going to see their income drop as a result of this tax?

Hon. M. Aileen Carroll: I think this government has a remarkable record on the investments we have made in the industry wherein those very performers benefit from employment and from increased activity, and we've done so by a whole series of tax credits that benefit the entire industry.

It's always easy to take one particular segment and carve it off, but I think one has to look at the track record of this government and what we've done for the cultural industries as a whole, recognizing as we do that they contribute $20 billion a year to our GDP. We see them as an industry of the future and we see the Ministry of Culture as an economic tool to assist the enhancement of that sector. So I don't think it's at all fair to take one piece and say, "But they don't have this particular set of tax credits, ergo they're not part and parcel of the huge success of the cultural—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you.

Hon. James J. Bradley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: You have often chastised members of the House for matters of decorum, and I want to say that you haven't had to do that with members of the House today.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. That is not a point of order. I thank the honourable member.

There being no deferred votes, this House stands recessed until 1 p.m.

The House recessed from 1137 to 1300.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: Many of you know that today is Laubach Literacy Ontario's Awareness Day here at Queen's Park. There are a number of people here from across the province. I'd like to mention in particular some who are in the gallery today: Sue Bannon, the president; Lana Faessler, the executive director; and Carol Risidore, the vice-president; Gary Porter, who is a board member and a former student; and, from the Midland area reading council, Jennifer Ellis, the program coordinator; Bob Sture, a board member; and Lin Sullivan, a board member.

I wish everybody in the House would give these people a warm welcome of appreciation today.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: It's my pleasure to introduce Arden Ryshpan, the executive director of Canadian Actors' Equity; Jim Biros, the executive director of the Toronto Musicians' Association, affiliated with the American Federation of Musicians; Paul Taylor, from the International Association of Theatre and Stage Employees; and Lynn McQueen, also from Canadian Actors' Equity. I'd like to welcome them here as well.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

TAXATION

Mr. Norm Miller: I rise today to share the concerns of my constituents in Parry Sound—Muskoka regarding this government's proposed harmonized sales tax. Here's a small sampling of the hundreds of e-mails I've received.

"Mr. Miller, please do all you can to stop the proposed HST. I am living just outside Parry Sound, self-employed and working hard to save for retirement.

"This HST will drive all of the costs of living up, and in a time of economic difficulty, I am greatly shocked that the Liberals are pulling this stunt.

"Please help stop the proposed HST and the gouging of the Ontario taxpayer."

That's from Dave in Parry Sound.

Another letter:

"Dear Norm:

"My wife and I live in Barkway, near Gravenhurst. We moved here three years ago to retire.

"We have never had to really complain till now. The McGuinty government has really done it this time. Since we are on a fixed income, how are we supposed to survive?

"Thanks for listening and please fight for us retirees."

That's from Bill in Barkway.

Another e-mail: "There must be a better way for the province to deal with its budget deficit. We, as a retired couple, have calculated that our living expenses will go up at least $2,100 a year. This is outrageous." That is from Hans and Jeanette.

It is clear from the hundreds of e-mails I'm receiving that the public wants to be heard on this new proposed HST, so that's why I'm asking for public consultations on Bill 218 across the province.

KURDISH COMMUNITY

Mr. Reza Moridi: I rise here today to welcome the Kurdish community to the Ontario Legislature and to do my best in giving my colleagues and the public a better understanding of the Kurdish people and their rich history.

Kurdistan, literally meaning "the land of Kurds," is an extensive plateau and mountainous area in the Middle East, inhabited mainly by Kurds. It covers part of eastern Turkey, northern Iraq, western Iran and part of northern Syria.

The people of the region of Kurdistan have a rich history, filled with tremendous influences of cultures and traditions which have moulded their people into a very unique community in the region.

After years of political oppression, the Kurds have been able to move forward in the last few years. Kurds residing in Iraq have a provincial government representing them which has been recognized by the international community as an autonomous federal entity. The Kurds residing in Iran are also considered a minority and have a province named Kurdistan in western Iran.

I wish to once again welcome the Kurdish community to the Legislature and extend my warmest greetings and best wishes.

Remarks in Kurdish . Welcome and thank you.

CHILDREN'S AID SOCIETIES

Mr. John O'Toole: I rise in the House today to bring special attention to the funding crisis at Ontario children's aid societies.

I've had the opportunity to meet with representatives of the Durham children's aid. Like the majority of Ontario children's aid societies, they are facing a budget shortfall. The Durham Children's Aid Society has established a budget based on its legal obligations and the best interests of vulnerable children and youth. If the provincial government forces the Durham children's aid and other children's aids to balance their budgets, drastic cutbacks will be forced in programming, staff and services.

I would urge this McGuinty government to put the interests of children and families first, above all. Reduced funding means reduced protection for children at risk. This government must honour its commitment to fund child welfare services in accordance with the Child and Family Services Act.

It's just like the issue with respect to the HST: They won't listen; they won't have public meetings. This is one more example of a failed government.

DANFORTH EAST

COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION

Mr. Michael Prue: I rise today to talk about an amazing group of people in my riding who deeply care about our community and the neighbourhood in which they live. The Danforth East Community Association, or DECA, as they're more commonly known, is a fledgling group of residents who want to help make our neighbourhood more beautiful, vibrant and, particularly, more safe. DECA's boundaries are between Coxwell Avenue and Main Street, and from Mortimer/Lumsden down to the train tracks south of Danforth. My constituency office is located in this great neighbourhood, and we're very proud to be part of that community.

DECA is helping to bring neighbours together and foster a stronger sense of community. Its members are greening and beautifying the streets and parks, improving the commercial strip on Danforth Avenue, taking action to reduce crime, and planning community events. As the Toronto Star tells it, three years ago, a group of families and professionals formed DECA. They've been knocking on storefronts in need of tender loving care, and they've been getting it. Eight of them have been revamped so far.

When drug dealers came by, DECA was there to put a halt to it. They went to the local park. They had square dances and movies. Two years ago, they spearheaded what has become a popular farmers' market in the reclaimed space. We attend this quite often.

Tonight, they will be meeting at Melanie's Bistro, one of the new restaurants that have moved into the area, to have a cocktail party to meet and greet the neighbours.

I just want to say today how very proud we are of their accomplishments to date.

PAN-AM GAMES

Mr. Lorenzo Berardinetti: I am excited at the great news that the Pan-Am Games are coming to Ontario in 2015. The benefits of hosting these games will be felt in many areas in Ontario, including Scarborough and my riding of Scarborough Southwest.

The Scarborough area is hosting several competitions, including swimming, diving, fencing and sitting volleyball.

To host these competitions, a new sports complex will be built at the University of Toronto's Scarborough campus. The complex will include gymnasiums, fitness and training facilities, two Olympic-sized pools and a 10-metre diving tank. All new sports infrastructures will continue to serve our athletes and the local community for many years to come.

But that's not the only benefit of hosting these games. They also bring a great economic boost to my community and many other areas in Scarborough, with increased tourism and jobs.

I would like to congratulate everyone who participated in the successful bid to bring the Pan-Am Games to Ontario, including Premier McGuinty and Minister Best. This is great news for our province and my community of Scarborough Southwest, and I look forward to the 2015 Pan-Am Games. They will be a success for Scarborough, for Ontario and for all involved.

ADULT LITERACY

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: Earlier, I introduced people from Laubach Literacy Ontario, who are here today for their Literacy Awareness Day, and I want to thank them for being here.

We started this sort of lobby back in the winter with a resolution I had asking the government to provide adequate funding for these organizations to exist, and I thank the government for bringing forward some money. Apparently, it's a two-year funding model, and after that, we're not really sure what's happening. Part of the lobby here today is to make sure that no matter who is in power, the government understands how important literacy is to the province of Ontario.

We've lost over 300,000 manufacturing jobs. Many of the people who worked in those jobs don't have proper literacy skills, and in order to work in the future, they need to have these basic literacy skills to move forward.

These are the people who are actually helping those people through the use of volunteers.

Their funding has been frozen for a long time. We've got a little bit more money now, but we need to make sure, through these awareness days, that all of the provincial political parties realize how important this is to the economy of Ontario so that when these people are trained, they get out, get more self-esteem and meaningful, positive jobs and help contribute to the strong Ontario economy we hope to have again someday.

NORTHERN COLLEGE

Mr. David Ramsay: I'd like to share with the House some good news that's happening in my riding of Timiskaming—Cochrane, especially in regard to Northern College. Northern College is the fastest-growing college in this province—I'm very proud of that—and especially in two of the campuses which are located in my riding. The first-year enrolment at the Haileybury campus has increased by 46%, and there's been a 31% increase at the Kirkland Lake campus.

What's very exciting is that we opened the other day, right at the Haileybury campus in an old high school that was renovated by Northern College, a veterinary technology course. This is a one-, two-, and three-year course that is available to our young people to help all our four-legged critters, and they have lots of those in supply. There are dogs and cats there. The first year, they learn how to do grooming, and then they get into more medical procedures and research.

One of the very interesting things that's unique to the Northern College veterinary technology course is that they have wildlife rehabilitation. As we know, because we all get letters from a lot of our constituents, there's a lot of need for helping injured wildlife. We have a centre to do that and we now are training our young people to be able to do that too, so it's very exciting. Some 140 of these students are doing that, and I'm very grateful for the northern Ontario heritage grant for helping us out with almost $1 million to make that happen.

TAXATION

Mr. Khalil Ramal: The Leader of the Opposition addressed the London Chamber of Commerce on Friday and spoke about the HST. I have listened to him repeatedly use his careful wording to sway Ontarians into thinking the HST is bad when, in fact, experts and economists have agreed that it's good news for Ontarians. But even as the Leader of the Opposition thunders against the HST, he has constantly refused to answer this question: Will he commit to repealing the HST? I think Ontarians need to know. I want to know the answer to this question.

If he is so opposed to the HST tax reform package which will create nearly 600,000 jobs and cut taxes for 93% of Ontario families, then why won't he commit to repealing the HST? Once again, the opposition leader failed to answer the question. He ducked and dodged and refused to commit to reversing a single tax change that the McGuinty government has proposed.

I exposed the truth about the Leader of the Opposition and the HST to Londoners last week. Everyone in Ontario should know that Mr. Hudak has no intention of reversing the HST. Thank you for allowing me to speak and tell the people of Ontario about the position of the Leader of the Opposition on the HST, which, as I said many different times, will create more than 600,000 jobs for Ontarians.

TAXATION

Mrs. Carol Mitchell: The leader of the official opposition says that the public is against our government's proposed harmonized sales tax, but according to the Belleville Intelligencer newspaper, the only thing Ontarians are rejecting is the Leader of the Opposition and his attempts to spin Ontarians.

An editorial in the newspaper said, "Tim Hudak couldn't draw flies on a whistle stop to Belleville and the chamber breakfast on Wednesday saw an embarrassing paucity of bacon 'n eggers to listen to Hudak tune up his campaign speech, attacking the harmonized sales tax."

But that's not all the newspaper noted. It also says he got his facts wrong about the Belleville area. "He cited Dacoma Autosystems and Stream International as being battered on the job front. Both are recalling employees by the hundreds." As the editorial says, it's not enough to place [insert city name here] in your anti-HST rants.

I think the visit to Belleville clarifies what Ontarians really oppose. They are opposed to being spun by false information on the HST, and that's why he's speaking to empty rooms.

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I'm not sure if it is a rule or if it's convention, Mr. Speaker—perhaps you can give us some guidance on this—but I believe that it is parliamentary convention that there usually be a minister in the House, and I don't see a minister in the House.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): You asked and you shall receive.

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Standing order 63(

a) provides that "the Standing Committee on Estimates shall present one report with respect to all of the estimates and supplementary estimates considered pursuant to standing orders 60 and 62 no later than the third Thursday in November of each calendar year."

The House not having received a report from the Standing Committee on Estimates for certain ministries on Thursday, November 19, 2009, as required by the standing orders of this House, pursuant to standing order 63(b), the estimates before the committee of the Ministry of Community and Social Services, Ministry of Labour, Ministry of Tourism and Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs are deemed to be passed by the committee and are deemed to be reported to and received by the House.

Accordingly, the estimates for 2009-10 of these ministries are deemed to be passed by the Standing Committee on Estimates and are deemed to be reported to and received by the House.

Report deemed received.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

DRIVETEST LABOUR DISPUTE

RESOLUTION ACT, 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 SUR LE RÈGLEMENT

DU CONFLIT DE TRAVAIL

CHEZ TEST AU VOLANT

Mr. Wilson moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 225,

An Act to resolve the labour dispute between DriveTest and United Steelworkers, Local 9511 / Projet de loi 225, Loi visant à résoudre le conflit de travail opposant Test au volant et la

section locale 9511 du Syndicat des Métallos.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour will say "aye."

All those opposed will say "nay."

In my opinion, the nays have it.

Call in the members. This will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1317 to 1322.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): All those in favour will rise one at a time and be recorded by the Clerk.

Ayes

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Those opposed?

The Clerk of the Assembly (Ms. Deborah Deller): The ayes are 14; the nays are zero.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I declare the motion passed.

First reading agreed to.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member for a short statement?

Mr. Jim Wilson: This bill addresses the labour dispute between DriveTest and the United Steelworkers Local 9511, which is currently in its 14th week. It requires the termination of the ongoing strike that has affected some 368,000 Ontarians. If passed, this bill would return 600 DriveTest employees to work. Since the strike began, 4,000 Ontarians per day have been unable to get their licence because of the ongoing labour dispute. As a result, no applicants have been able to obtain drivers' licences, and the economy and livelihood of Ontarians has been disrupted. This bill will end the strike that has negatively impacted the residents of my riding and of all of Ontario.

TAXATION AMENDMENT ACT

(LIVE PERFORMANCES), 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR LES IMPÔTS

(SPECTACLES)

Mr. Tabuns moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 226,

An Act to amend the Taxation Act, 2007 with respect to live performances / Projet de loi 226, Loi modifiant la Loi de 2007 sur les impôts à l'égard des spectacles.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

First reading agreed to.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member for a short statement?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: The bill amends the Taxation Act, 2007, to give the Lieutenant Governor in Council the power to create regulations providing for tax credit for live performances. The bill also gives the Lieutenant Governor in Council the power to specify the rules of eligibility for the tax credit, the methods of claiming and obtaining the tax credit, and any other matter relating to the tax credit.

My thanks to Equity, IATSE and the American Federation of Musicians.

PETITIONS

TAXATION

Mr. John O'Toole: It's a real pleasure today to rise and read a petition from my constituents in the riding of Durham. I have thousands of these petitions and they're all on HST, but I'll read one:

"Whereas Premier Dalton McGuinty is increasing taxes yet again with his new 13% combined sales tax, at a time when families and businesses can least afford it;

"Whereas by 2010, Dalton McGuinty's new tax will increase the cost of goods and services that families and businesses use every day. A few examples include: coffee"—well, that's been cancelled; we have to modify this, they've backed down on that one—"newspapers"—they've backed down—"and magazines; condo fees;" health services; "haircuts, dry cleaning and personal grooming; home renovations and home services; veterinary care and pet care; legal services, the sale of resale homes, and funeral arrangements;

"Whereas Dalton McGuinty promised he wouldn't raise taxes in the 2003 election. However, in 2004, he brought in the" dreaded "health tax, which costs upwards of $600 to $900 per individual. And now he is raising our taxes" yet "again;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the Dalton McGuinty government wake up to Ontario's current economic reality and stop raising taxes" continuously "on Ontario's hard-working families and businesses."

I'm pleased to sign and support this and pass it to the table with Christopher, one of the new pages here.

DIAGNOSTIC SERVICES

M me France Gélinas: I have a petition from the residents of the city of greater Sudbury, which means the ridings of Sudbury and Nickel Belt, and they are asking for a PET scan.

"Whereas the Ontario government is making ... PET scanning, a publicly insured health service; and

"Whereas by October 2009, insured PET scans will be performed in Ottawa, London, Toronto, Hamilton and Thunder Bay; and

"Whereas the city of Greater Sudbury is a hub for health care in northeastern Ontario, with the Sudbury Regional Hospital, its regional cancer program and the Northern Ontario School of Medicine;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to make PET scans available through the Sudbury Regional Hospital, thereby serving and providing equitable access to the citizens of northeastern Ontario."

I fully support this petition, will affix my name to it and send it to the table with page Olivia.

MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

Mr. Bill Mauro: I have a petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario that reads as follows:

"Whereas we currently have no psychiatric emergency service at the Thunder Bay Regional Health Sciences Centre in Thunder Bay, Ontario;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly to support the creation of a psychiatric emergency service in emergency at the Thunder Bay Regional Health Sciences Centre in Thunder Bay, Ontario."

TAXATION

Mr. Toby Barrett: The petition is titled Scrap the 13% McGuinty Sales Tax. It's to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the 13% McGuinty sales tax will cause everyone to pay more for gasoline, heat, telephone, cable, and Internet services; and

"Whereas the 13% McGuinty sales tax will cause everyone to pay more for coffins, coffee, haircuts, gym memberships, newspapers, lawyer and accountant fees and meals under $4"—and we know the government has backed down on several of these items;

"We the undersigned petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to not increase taxes for Ontario consumers."

I affix my signature to these petitions.

TAXATION

Mr. Michael Prue: I have a similar petition that reads as follows:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas Ontarians already pay more than their fair share of taxes; and

"Whereas the Liberal government's proposed harmonized sales tax (HST) will add 8% to purchases like gym memberships, running shoes, vitamins, coffee, gasoline, heating oil, natural gas, hydro, newspapers, magazines, landscaping, Internet access, theatre tickets and home renovations;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to cancel the implementation of this unreasonable, unaffordable and untimely tax."

I am in agreement and would sign my signature thereto.

HISPANIC COMMUNITY

Mr. Tony Ruprecht: The subject of this petition is proclaiming April as Hispanic Heritage Month. It reads as follows:

"Whereas Canadians of Hispanic origin have made outstanding contributions in the building of this great province; and

"Whereas the Hispanic population is among the fastest-growing communities in Ontario; and

"Whereas the Hispanic population in Ontario represents 23 countries across the world, such as Argentina, Belize, Bolivia, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Equatorial Guinea, Estados Unidos, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Puerto Rico, Spain, Uruguay and Venezuela; and

"Whereas Hispanic Heritage Month would give Ontarians the opportunity to participate in various cultural and educational activities that would strengthen our diversity; and

"Whereas the proclamation of April as Hispanic Heritage Month in Ontario is an opportunity to recognize and learn about the contributions Canadians of Hispanic heritage have made to Canada and to the world in music, art, literature, film, economics, science and medicine;

"We, the undersigned, call upon the Legislative Assembly of Ontario" to support Mr. Tony Ruprecht's and Mr. Mike Colle's proclamations that April of each year be proclaimed as Hispanic Heritage Month in Ontario.

Of course I support this petition. I'm delighted to sign it.

TAXATION

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: I have here a petition signed by what would appear to be almost every person in my riding. It is to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas residents of Oxford do not want Dalton McGuinty's new sales tax, which will raise the cost of goods and services they use every day; and

"Whereas the McGuinty Liberals' new sales tax of 13% will cause everyone to pay more for gasoline for their cars, heat, telephone, cable and Internet services for their homes, and will be applied to home sales over $500,000; and

"Whereas the McGuinty Liberals' new sales tax of 13% will cause everyone to pay more for meals under $4, haircuts, funeral services, gym memberships, newspapers, and lawyer and accountant fees; and

"Whereas the McGuinty Liberals' new sales tax grab will affect everyone in the province: seniors, students, families, farmers and low-income Ontarians;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the McGuinty Liberal government not increase taxes for Ontario families."

I affix my signature as I agree with the petition.

CEMETERIES

Mrs. Carol Mitchell: My petition is:

"Whereas Ontario's cemeteries are an important part of our cultural heritage, and Ontario's inactive cemeteries are constantly at risk of closure and removal; and

"Ontario's cemeteries are an irreplaceable part of the province's cultural heritage;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"The government must pass Bill 149, the Inactive Cemeteries Protection Act, 2009, to prohibit the relocation of inactive cemeteries in the province of Ontario."

I support this petition and will affix my signature to it.

TAXATION

Mr. Ted Arnott: I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario and it reads as follows:

"Whereas Dalton McGuinty said he wouldn't raise taxes in the 2003 election, but in 2004 he brought in a brand-new tax on income that they inaccurately claimed was going to 'health care'; and

"Whereas Dalton McGuinty will increase taxes yet again with his new 13% combined sales tax, at a time when families and businesses can least afford it;

"Whereas Dalton McGuinty's new 13% sales tax will increase the cost of goods and services that families and businesses buy every day, such as: gas at the pumps; home heating oil and electricity; postage stamps; haircuts; dry cleaning; home renovations; veterinary care; and arena ice and soccer field rentals;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the Dalton McGuinty government wake up to Ontario's current economic reality and stop raising taxes, once and for all, on Ontario's hard-working families and businesses."

I support this petition and have affixed my signature to it.

RECONSTRUCTIVE SURGERY

Mr. Dave Levac: "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas to cover the cost of reconstructive surgery when a patient has had extreme weight loss after bariatric surgery, as these surgeries are not covered under OHIP and are at present considered cosmetic;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That when patients have bariatric surgery and lose the required amount of weight and keep it off, they also have another set of health ... issues that can be very costly to take care of. As these individuals lose weight, they end up with so much excess skin and fat pockets that no amount of exercise will take care of it. This excess skin and folds in the skin can cause anything from boils, cysts, skin infections and more that have to be cared for constantly in hospital emergency rooms and cared for by agencies like community care access centres.

If preventive reconstructive surgeries are not approved, the constant medical care will cost the taxpayer much more money than said health issues would cost over time."

I affix my name to this petition and offer it to Olivia, our page.

TAXATION

Mr. Jim Wilson: "Whereas the hard-working residents of Simcoe—Grey do not want a harmonized sales tax ... that will raise the cost of goods and services they use every day; and

"Whereas the 13% blended sales tax will cause everyone to pay more for, to name just a few, gasoline for their cars, heat, telephone, cable and Internet services for their homes, house sales over $400,000, fast food under $4"—which is exempt now—"electricity, newspapers, magazines, stamps, theatre admissions, footwear less than $30, home renovations, gym fees, audio books for the blind, funeral services, snowplowing, air conditioning repairs, commercial property rentals, real estate commissions, dry cleaning, car washes, manicures, Energy Star appliances, vet bills, bus fares, golf fees, arena ice rentals, moving vans, grass cutting, furnace repairs, domestic air travel, train fares, tobacco, bicycles and legal services; and

"Whereas the blended sales tax will affect everyone in the province: seniors, students, families and low-income Ontarians;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the McGuinty Liberal government not increase taxes for Ontario consumers."

I agree with this petition and I will sign it.

RAILROAD BRIDGE

Mr. Tony Ruprecht: This is a petition to the Minister of Transportation. It reads as follows:

"Whereas Bloor Street West between Lansdowne Avenue and Dundas Street West has been identified as the only stretch of Bloor Street that has no landscaping; and

"Whereas the neighbourhood near 1369 Bloor Street West has been recognized as a priority revitalization area by a city of Toronto study in 2000; and

"Whereas items for beautification include:

"

(1) Developing terraced walls with flowers and planters near the railroad bridge;

"

(2) Constructing new abutment walls;

"

(3) Cleaning, painting and reconstructing the rusty, dilapidated railroad bridge; and

"

(4) Creating brightly lit murals underneath the bridge in order to make it more secure and more people-friendly;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, request in the strongest terms that our city government immediately reactivate the 2000 reconstruction plan and CNR immediately proceed with improvements to the bridge" and that the provincial government support this plan.

"We look forward to a dynamic, revitalized community enhanced by a beautiful continuous cityscape. We want to be proud to live here."

Since I agree, I am delighted to sign my name to it.

TAXATION

Mr. Robert Bailey: This petition is to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas Premier Dalton McGuinty is increasing taxes yet again with his new 13% combined sales tax, at a time when families and businesses can least afford it;

"Whereas by 2010, Dalton McGuinty's new tax will increase the cost of goods and services that families and businesses buy every day. A few examples include: ... gas for the car, home heating oil and electricity; condo fees; haircuts, dry cleaning and personal grooming; home renovations and home services; veterinary care and pet care; legal services, the sale of resale homes, and funeral arrangements;

"Whereas Dalton McGuinty promised he wouldn't raise taxes in the 2003 election. However, in 2004, he brought in the health tax, which costs upwards of $600 to $900 per individual. And now he is raising our taxes again;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the Dalton McGuinty government wake up to Ontario's current economic reality and stop raising taxes on Ontario's hard-working families and businesses."

I agree with this petition, affix my name to it and send it down with Vanessa.

EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE

Mr. Mike Colle: I have a petition from workers in my riding.

"Whereas the federal government's employment insurance surplus now stands at" more than "$54 billion; and

"Whereas over 75% of Ontario's unemployed are not eligible for employment insurance because of Ottawa's unfair eligibility rules; and

"Whereas an Ontario worker has to work more weeks to qualify and receives fewer weeks of benefits than other Canadian unemployed workers; and

"Whereas the average Ontario unemployed worker gets $4,000 less in EI benefits than unemployed workers in other provinces, and thus ... not qualifying for many retraining programs;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to press the federal government to reform the employment insurance program and to end the discrimination and unfairness towards Ontario's unemployed workers."

I support the petition and I affix my name to it.

TAXATION

Mr. Jerry J. Ouellette: I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas Dalton McGuinty said he wouldn't raise taxes in the 2003 election, but in 2004 he brought in the health tax, the biggest tax hike in Ontario's history" at that time; and

"Whereas Dalton McGuinty will increase taxes yet again with his new 13% combined sales tax, at a time when families and businesses can least afford it; and

"Whereas Dalton McGuinty's new 13% sales tax will increase the cost of goods and services that families and businesses buy every day, such as: arena ice and baseball field rentals; gas at the pumps; magazines; home heating oil and electricity; gym fees; golf fees; ski lift fees; and movie tickets, just to name a few;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the Dalton McGuinty government wake up to Ontario's current economic reality and stop raising taxes, once and for all, on Ontario's hard-working families and businesses."

I affix my name in full support.

ORDER OF BUSINESS

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member for Parry Sound—Muskoka has given me notice of his intention to raise a point of privilege. His point relates to the circumstances under which the House entered upon orders of the day for consideration of Bill 218 last Thursday morning.

I'm prepared to rule on the matter without hearing further from the member from Parry Sound—Muskoka, as standing order 21(

d) permits me to do.

I will first say that I am satisfied with the procedural correctness with which debate was commenced last Thursday on Bill 218. After calling orders of the day, I permitted the member for Leeds—Grenville to raise a point of privilege, of which he had given me notice the previous afternoon.

After hearing from the member, the member from Timmins—James Bay and the government House leader, I reserved my ruling on that point of privilege.

At that point, the member for Wellington—Halton Hills raised a point of order, which I dealt with, and then the member for Oshawa raised a point of order, which I also dealt with. I then recognized the Minister of Finance, who called order G218. The deputy clerk then read the order for second reading of Bill 218, following which I recognized the Minister of Finance to commence the debate.

I will say that I was deliberate in following the normal sequence of events—though they were interrupted with the point of privilege and the points of order—and I have no reservation about the fact that all was in order and Bill 218 was properly brought before the House for debate.

I might also say that this matter raised by the member for Parry Sound—Muskoka is more correctly a point of order and not a point of privilege. The orderliness of the proceedings was not challenged at the time they occurred and so there can be no revising of them now.

I thank the member for Parry Sound—Muskoka for raising this matter, but do not find that he has made out a valid case of privilege.

OPPOSITION DAY

TAXATION

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: I move that the Legislative Assembly of Ontario call on the Premier and the Minister of Finance to hold extensive public hearings on Bill 218,

An Act to implement 2009 Budget measures and to enact, amend or repeal various Acts, with such public hearings taking place over a minimum of three weeks and in a minimum of 10 communities across the province of Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Ms. MacLeod has moved opposition day number 5. Further debate?

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Before I begin my remarks, I would like to acknowledge those in the gallery today from the Public Sector Retirees Coalition of retired municipal, fire and police workers in this province. They have done tremendous work on our behalf. They have built this province.

I'd also like to welcome another two diverse groups. One is the camp association of Ontario, who provide charity camps for children across this great province, as well as CI Financial employees who work in the mutual fund sector and who are providing valuable advice and services for the people of this province.

On behalf of Tim Hudak and the Progressive Conservative caucus, I am proud to stand today, on behalf of Ontarians on either side of the HST debate, to demand that the Premier and the Minister of Finance hold extensive public hearings on Bill 218.

Last week, when the Liberals brought forward a sweeping omnibus bill that, when passed, will usher in the harmonized sales tax, the largest single sales tax increase in our province's history, they decided that they were also going to ram the legislation through without any public consultation.

On July 1, 2010, Ontarians will be paying 8% more for everyday essentials like home heating oil and gas for their cars. They'll also be paying more for veterinary bills, haircuts and Internet access fees. With such sweeping changes, Ontarians deserve to have a voice in a debate that is going to change how much they pay for their essentials.

Denying public consultation on one of the biggest tax changes in history came as a result of some of the rules they abused last week. They have used time allocation, and will continue to use time allocation, to cripple our debate, and they have ignored legitimate points of order about abuse of process.

The PC caucus is disappointed, but we are not surprised by the tactics of this government. That is why we will continue to call for public consultation and use every available tool at our disposal to call for public consultation, to disrupt the passage of this terrible tax hike, and we will make it clear that the McGuinty Liberals are prepared to use and abuse parliamentary privilege and their majority to have their way.

In the run-up to the GST, the Mulroney government held extensive public, province-wide consultations. In its hearings, the committee heard 274 sets of witnesses. They analyzed over 1,100 briefs and other representations. The committee completed its public hearings on October 26, 1989, but Bill C-62, which would implement the GST and related changes to other statutes, was not tabled until July 24, 1990.

And here we are. We're asking that Mr. McGuinty and Mr. Duncan follow Mr. Mulroney's lead, follow the lead of a person who had the courage of his convictions, who, when he decided to overhaul the taxation system in our nation, decided to go province to province, community to community and hear from the people before he tabled the legislation.

Once upon a time, Mr. McGuinty used this quote: "'Public hearings'; those two words go together nicely if you believe in true democracy...." Also in a true democracy, it is the rules that prevent the tyranny of the majority over the minority. Yet time and time again we have seen in this chamber the abuse of their majority to shut us down, to shut consultations down and to shut down public debate.

We on this side are very concerned about the $3-billion tax grab that is going to be put on the backs of the folks who send their kids to camp, the people who are retiring and live on a fixed income, and those middle-class families who desire to have a better future by putting precious dollars away in their mutual funds for retirement.

But equally concerning to us are the hidden details about this tax that the current government seems content to obscure and intent to ignore when the public raises them. We think these are all legitimate public discussion points and debate that voters and Ontario taxpayers ought to have a say about. I'm going to briefly run through them.

Under the HST, Ontario is going to surrender its constitutionally granted taxation powers to the whim of future federal governments. Once the HST is enacted, fundamental decisions about what is and what is not going to be subject to direct sales taxation will be made, not in this chamber, not by people who have been duly elected to decide such things; they will instead be made in Ottawa. It is not hard to foresee a day when a federal finance minister from outside of Ontario will decide the fate of Ontario businesses when there is a tax dispute.

Under the HST, it is likely that tax-included pricing, or hidden taxation, will come to Ontario. In 1997, when Jean Chrétien brought forward a change to the Excise Tax Act, he allowed for hidden taxation when 51% of the population bought into the HST. You know as well as I do that Ontarians prefer to see what they are taxed, not the other way around.

I also want to clarify: The McGuinty government will, from time to time, talk about the 130 nations that are also promoting the value-added tax. That's misleading. No other developed nation has successfully imposed a joint—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): The member from Nepean—Carleton will withdraw that word.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Which one was that, Mr. Speaker?

Interjection: "Dalton McGuinty"?

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): No. You know which one.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Withdrawn.

No other developed nation has successfully imposed a joint value-added tax at both the federal and state levels. In any case, Canada's federation is dissimilar to that in many OECD countries.

Finally, this is something that the Liberals don't want Ontarians to know. It's something that they would prefer hidden. It's something that they do not want to talk about at committee with everyday Ontarians. The fact is that once this HST is implemented, it will be impossible to repeal without massive penalties, and that massive penalty is that Ontario will be forced to repay the $4.3 billion in bribe money that this government is going to be giving away right before the next election.

Interjections.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Unfortunately, the Liberals opposite don't understand that there was an agreement called the CITCA that actually spells this out. If you don't think Ontario can afford $4.3 billion today, what do you think we're going to be doing in two years, after they finish this mandate?

This government has taken us from first to worst in economic growth. They've lost 300,000 manufacturing jobs. And for the first time next week, we're going to be celebrating the worst thing this province has ever seen, and that's one year of getting handouts from the federal government. At the same time, they're trying to bring this massive tax onto our friends in the mutual fund industry, our friends who are retired and our friends who are trying to send their kids to camp.

I'm just going to briefly conclude here, but mark my words: Even if they think that once they pass this legislation and ram it through the Ontario Legislature it's over, it's not even by a country mile, because the PC caucus does not consider the HST law until the people of Ontario are paying 8% more on July 1, 2010. If enough Ontario voters speak out, Dalton McGuinty and his Liberal backbench are going to be forced to repeal his record-breaking tax grab in his 2010 budget.

As I conclude, I've had the privilege of bringing stakeholders from across Ontario into this Legislature in the past couple of weeks to attend press conferences. All of them spoke, basically in unanimity, that we need public consultation in Ontario. I'm going to read from a few of them.

My friend Jim Garchinski of the public sector retiree coalition, who's in the chamber today, said, "We're all vehemently opposed to this HST by a government that is about to unilaterally force another massive tax grab on citizens of Ontario."

The Canadian Federation of Independent Business said, "The lack of public consultation has, in part, generated mixed reviews about the harmonized tax. A recent CFIB survey of small and medium-sized businesses points to growing concerns about the lack of information and the impact on consumers."

Peter Coleman of the National Citizens Coalition said, "We believe consumers deserve a voice. There has been zero"—zero—"public consultations, it's time they do. We would support the public consultation process."

And finally, last week, Christine McMillan, chair of the Councils on Aging Network of Ontario, said, "We think if they got out of their ivory tower and listened to the people on the street they would have a better understanding of the impact this will have. We would like them to really hear from people."

So there you have it: a clear invitation from the people of Ontario and the official opposition to get out of their ivory tower and onto Main Street, to listen to the people, listen to the hairdressers, listen to the plumbers, listen to the electricians—but listen to the people who make this province what it is, because they don't want it.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Further debate?

Mr. Michael Prue: I rise in support of this motion. This motion is a motion that surely must pass this House.

Some would have you believe that the only function of citizenship of this province and of this country is that a citizen is given power but once every four years and exercises that power by going to vote, and that that is the only and sole responsibility of the citizenry of this province. I reject that notion, and I think the members ought to reject that notion as well.

Not only do we require citizens to exercise their franchise and go out and vote every four years, but we expect a great deal more from them, a great deal more than going out and delivering some pamphlets at election time, making some phone calls, putting up signs or collecting funds to run the election. That is on the periphery.

What we expect most is that those citizens not go into a cocoon after they have voted and exercised their political rights but be participants throughout. They are every bit as much citizens today as they were during the last election in 2007, and they must have every bit as much right to go out there and do what is necessary to channel their elected people, to support them, to tell them what they want, to tell them about how they need to vote, to tell them what their concerns are and to see that expressed in the everyday debate of this House.

Some believe that a citizen's right only extends to choosing a representative. I reject that. A citizen's right is to participate in all things political.

Aristotle, in his great works, taught us that Man—he said "Man" in those days, Mr. Speaker. Sorry; I don't want to change what he said—is a political animal, and that a man—and a woman, too, today—is entitled to be a political animal throughout his life, to live in a political environment, to make political decisions and to participate fully in the political process.

There was another great philosopher—perhaps some of the members opposite have heard of him: Edmund Burke. I often want to go back and look—he wrote a treatise on the electors of Bristol. I haven't read it in full for a number of years, but I remember studying it in university.

Edmund Burke was a genius of a man who put forward two propositions: the proposition that an elected representative would be elected by the people and then would go off and do whatever he—because in those days it was only men—thought was right for the next four years, and the electors would judge him at the end of that process.

He also put forward another proposition, with which he was much more comfortable and the one I think that people today are much more comfortable with, and that is that the person who was elected was both a representative and a delegate, because it was his responsibility as an elected representative to listen to the people who sent him there, to listen to what their grievances were, to what their hopes and aspirations were, and to put words to that. It was the responsibility of the delegated representative to vote in as many ways as the people who sent him there wanted him to vote.

That isn't what I'm seeing here today. I am seeing a fundamentally different attitude from the members in government. They are behaving as if the people who sent them here are somehow irrelevant today.

They were very relevant at the time of the election. They were very relevant when they collected money for you and put up signs for you and made phone calls for you and entreated their neighbours to vote for you. But they somehow seem not too relevant today, do they, member from Brant? Do they seem relevant to you as you shake your head?

I'm saying that they don't seem so relevant to me when they don't want to hear of them. They don't want to hear them, they don't want them to come down to this Legislature and they don't want to go to the many locations around the province that are being put forward in this motion. They don't want to hear what they actually have to say.

There are some members and some people who think that representative democracy isn't perhaps all it's cut out to be, but I would suggest that it is the very best of systems, because not only is it the best of systems and it legitimizes what we say and do in this Legislature, but it also legitimizes what ordinary people have to say. It presupposes that the citizens have an unfettered right to have views and to have their views made directly to those who represent them.

It's important for me to know not only what the citizens of Beaches—East York who sent me to this place think, but what every citizen of the province thinks—citizens in Brantford, what they think; citizens in Pickering, what they think; citizens in Ottawa, what they think; citizens in North Bay, what they think. I need to know what the people of this province are saying—ordinary people, respected people, people who have a view, people who know of what they speak and who know what the impact is going to be upon them of any legislation, but particularly of this one.

It presupposes that everyone and every view must be carefully weighed. I believe that the views of every individual are important. Every single individual has something to contribute to the political debate. I believe that a farmer has as much to tell me about this bill or any other bill as a lawyer does. I believe that a factory worker has as much to tell me about this bill or any bill as a doctor does. I believe that a small business has every bit as much to tell me about this bill or any bill as a paid consultant who advises this government does.

I believe that retired police officers, many of whom are present here today, have every bit as much to say about this bill and to have me listen to what they have to say as an economist, especially a paid economist who's now advising this government. All of them have something to contribute, and we owe it to them to allow them to speak out and make that contribution.

What is being suggested, in my view, is a complete reversal of representative democracy. In fact, what is being suggested here by members of the government, particularly the finance minister and the Premier, amounts to nothing more than a plutocracy. What they are trying to say and what they say here every day is that they are listening to experts. They quote Mr. Mintz ad infinitum, a person who, a few months ago, they were dissing for his beliefs. They quote people who they never thought they had any use for before because those economists were not in agreement with them.

They quote them as if they are somehow experts beyond reproach whom ordinary people cannot understand and whom ordinary people cannot comment upon.

I have some huge problems with this. I have some huge problems probably with almost all economists, particularly ones in western society, only one of which—and I can't even remember his name—even forecasted that we were going to go into such a deep recession. They were all saying things were going to be fine. It is not for no reason that economics is called the dismal science, because in fact it is very dismal. It is very dismal because the prognostications very seldom come true and those who are making those hold themselves out to be experts and often see their expertise is wanting.

It is these experts whom this government is relying on. In my view, the only true and real expertise that exists is the collective wisdom of the people of this province. Every four years we trust them to make a collective wisdom on who they send to this place, but quite frankly I don't see the members opposite asking for the collective wisdom when they need it most, and that is in the making of particularly contentious policies like the one here today.

The Premier likes to quote those—but doesn't want to go directly to ordinary people, doesn't want to talk about what ordinary people have to say and their expertise. He invites ordinary people to go to other fora. He tells them, "It's okay. You can't speak to the Legislature—we don't want to have committee hearings—but use other fora that are available to you. Write a letter to the editor." Well, we all know ordinary people, when they write a letter to the editor, are very, very lucky to ever see that letter published.

We all know that you could write hundreds and hundreds of letters and probably never see one of your letters published, especially in the big dailies in Toronto. But, increasingly so, in smaller town Ontario, where there are so many people wanting to write about this, the letters cannot all be published. So you can write a letter, but nothing happens to it. Nobody ever sees it except the editorial branch, who scan it over and say, "It's not worth it," and put it in the little round bin. So there's what ordinary people can do and what the Premier suggests they can do.

He suggests they call in to radio talk shows, as if some radio talk show host is going to make a decision. I know some of them are pretty good at stirring the pot. I have a colleague here who likes to stir the pot from time to time, even likes to stir the pot with me in the middle of it, which he did on the weekend.

Interjection.

Mr. Michael Prue: Yeah. But that is not a person who makes a decision. That's a person who stirs the pot. Sure, you can pick up the phone, phone a radio talk show host and rant and rave, but nothing comes of it, except perhaps that you might influence some other people who like to listen to that kind of program. That's all that happens to it. The Premier suggests this is a good thing.

The Premier suggests other things, like going to Liberal-sponsored meetings: Invite all your Liberal friends into a meeting and bore them for an hour and a half on how good the HST is, because it takes an hour and a half to get down to why it's good, and even then I don't think it can be done. But it's not a simple exercise. It's not a simple exercise for them. It's pretty simple for me to tell somebody, when you're going to buy your next litre of gas, that instead of costing you 95 cents, it's going to cost $1.03. Everybody understands that in one second. They know what HST is all about.

But no: Over there, they say you have to look at the whole package. You have to look at 100 amendments and how all these little things fit together. I would think that anybody who didn't have insomnia at the end of that Liberal meeting would be an insomniac for life, because there would be no hope and no cure for them. They should be long asleep.

He also suggests that attending these hand-picked Liberal meetings is the way to get your message out, but I reject that because it is not just the hand-picked Liberal meetings and it's not just people coming to see their own MPP that is important here. It is the process of what goes on in this Legislature, and it is indeed the process of what goes on in committee and the final vote: that everyone is participating in it, that all the best views are known, that ordinary people have spoken, we have listened, and we have taken the right course of action.

I have listened in vain, in absolute vain, in shock and some dismay over these past few weeks for a rationale coming out of the government as to why ordinary people cannot be heard. I have listened and listened about why ordinary people cannot be heard, and I have not heard a single reason.

All that is said and is ever spoken about is to quote from whichever deemed expert is in vogue that day: whatever Jack Mintz said, whatever came out on the weekend from a "respected economist" who wasn't respected by the government at all before the report was written, whatever chamber of commerce has added its name to saying this is going to help a particular business or two. Nothing is heard at all about small business people. Nothing is heard at all from consumers or the retired. Nothing is heard at all of the people who send us here. Nothing. Nothing is quoted.

When members of the opposition stand up, when the Conservatives and the New Democrats stand up and read ordinary letters and ordinary people's views into the record, they are dismissed. They are dismissed as cavalierly and with such ease as one would be shocked at. If one follows the political process, one can only be shocked at how those opinions are dismissed right out of hand as being irrelevant.

This is a large province. Anyone who has had the opportunity to travel from one end of this province to the other will know how large it is.

I had the opportunity, albeit not successfully, to run for leader of my party. I travelled by car some 20,000 kilometres. I burnt out a transmission; it cost me a lot of money; but I met some wonderful people. I met them from Cornwall in the east down to Amherstburg, south of Windsor. Some Ontarians are surprised that there's anything south of Windsor, but there is, Mr. Speaker, as you know. I've met them in far northern Ontario. I've met them throughout the length and breadth of that middle portion.

They're wonderful people. They all have different tales to tell. They all have something important to say. They all need to be heard. What is relevant to me, as a member from the Toronto area, and what is relevant to my constituents is not exactly on point to what is relevant to a farmer in Leamington, a steelworker in Hamilton, a farmer in New Liskeard, a forester or logger in northern Ontario or a miner in Sudbury or Timmins. They have different views; they have different needs. We need to hear all of them, every single one of them. We need to have input that reflects truly what they have to say to us.

It is not good enough, and will never be good enough, for this Legislature to say, "It's too cumbersome. It takes too long. Don't want to hear. I have an expert already." That is not what we are here for.

If you want a government to be run by experts, let the experts run it. Plato suggested the same thing 3,000 years ago: Just let the experts run it; don't let ordinary people do it at all. That has been rejected for all of that period of time, right through parliamentary democracy, and surely must be rejected today. It ought not to be what the Premier says when he answers the questions: that somehow a plutocracy of some economist or other who is now in vogue is the answer to all of it.

Things are going to go up. People know they're going to go up. People are afraid, depending on their circumstances. If you are contemplating buying a house in the Toronto area, you can probably contemplate paying more than $400,000 for it. Therefore, you can contemplate having to pay HST on that balance above $400,000.

If you are a condo owner, you can contemplate your condo fees going up $27 to $32 a month. Every economist, every condominium corporation, every condominium manager is telling us that that's what is going to happen.

If you are a renter, all the rental agencies and the FRPO, who are the apartment owners, the tenants' associations, have come to the conclusion that rents will average going up about $300 a year, or about $25 a month for the average renter in Ontario as a result of the HST, because of those things that have to be paid for, the additional costs, whether those costs be gasoline, whether they be electricity, whether they be the guy who comes to plant the flowers in the spring or the auditor who audits the building. All of that will, in the end, be reflected in the rent.

Ordinary people who drive and are forced to drive to work—as most Ontarians are, because the distances are vast—are going to see the gasoline go up that they buy for their car each day.

Even if you're lucky enough to live in a city like Toronto or London—and I know they're having a transit strike, so don't jump all over that—or Hamilton, or places that have transportation—Ottawa—then you know that those costs of getting on that transit system are going to go up. We have seen in the last few days what is happening here in Toronto, with the cost of the tokens going up.

You know, and ordinary people know, what is going to be happening as a result of the HST. We need to hear them, from the full length and breadth, and how it's going to affect them, so that this government in its wisdom can listen and potentially make changes, if not from the opposition, then at least from the people requesting it.

There's one thing I want to close with: This debate is not over. If this government will not hear the p