PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 87 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY , JUNE 1, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

The House met at 11 A.M. HT. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order: Presenting Petltibns: None. Answers to Questions: HON. 3. R. SMALLWOOD (Premier): Mr. Speaker, Question (216) on the Order of March 10 in the name of the bon. member for St. John's West. The answer to the first

part is $3.25 million, which came from the Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation, N.I.D.C. And $5,300,000 which was borrowed by way of demand loan at the Bank of Montreal. And the rate is 91,; percent. The terms regari .ing repayment have not as yet been agreed. The answer to the second pltrt is "no." And the answer to the third

part is "no." Question (224) on the Order Paper of March 10, the same date, in the name of the same bon. member. The answer to the first

part is $27,795,207 outstanding as at March 1 past. And the answer to the second

part is promisary notes on demand issued to the Government by the Crown Corporation in question • . The answer to the third

part is "yes," and the reason .is that the money ls interest-free because it is from part of the G overnment to another t•art of the Government. This is outstanding as of March 1 - this is the answer I have here. The period was passed to me by the Finance Departmet~.t, I do not know. March 1 is the answer I have here. MR. H.R.V. EARLE: This was given as $2~ milllou - MR. CROSBIE: As of what date? MR. SMALLWOOD: The same date. Well I will check on that and find out why the difference, maybe my colleague will check on it. And in connection with the fourth part.

The answer is "yes, that several advances were made to Newfoundland Industrial Development Ccrporation but no set rate or amount ~ 4 r-.• L\ I • ' ..

June 1, 1970 Tape 01046 Page 2 can be determined. The Government paid current bond rates at the time they floated any issue. No specific issue was done at any time for the Corporation, not specifically for the Corporation:~ BON. E. M. ROBERTS (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, with reference to Question (542) on today's Order Paper in the name of the bon. member for St. John's Center, the Leader of the Opposition. He asks me if the question of proposed development at Oliver's Pond in St. John's North has been referred to me.

And the answer to that is "yes it has from the viewpoint of the Public Health aspects of the proposed development." Part two asked who referred this to me. And the answer is the St. John's Metropolitan Board under their standard procedure as the House I am sure is aware Mr. Speaker. Any proposal for development in the metropolitan area is subject to the approval of the Public Health inspectors.

Normally that decision is made at a much lower level than the minister's, but in view of the implications of this one I directed at the time that no decision be taken by any person other than me, and so the matter has come to me. The third part asks what opinion or recommendation was given by me. The answer is that I have not made any reply to the request from the Metropolitan Board. The Metropolitan Board 1 am told approved the proposal by the developer concerned, subject to the approval of the Department of Health. I have not given that approval Sir.

Further studies are being made with a view to giving me advice as to whether or not I should give the approval. but as it now stands Mr. Speaker, there is no, I re?eat no authority to any developer to proceed with any development at Oliver's Pond. I believe the gentleman in question has put a road in. It would be very interesting if he does not get permission to go ahead - as it now stands Sir, he bas no permission from the Depart~ent of Health, and be will get none unless I personally approve, which I will or will not do on the basis of the detailed factual and 1technical evidence that is now being prepared.

"'U. UC:: .l.t 1.-, IV !'age .J HR. A. J. MURPHY (Leader of the Opposition): Just a supplementary question, In the event that permission is not forthcoming, would that actually void the construction from going on? I mean they would have to get the Department of Health's permission in the first instance I presume? MR.

ROBERTS: My understanding Sir is that no construction in the Metropolitan area can proceed without a permit from the Metropolitan Board, and my understanding further is that the Board inevitably follow the rule that ualess the Department of Health are prepared to approve the Public Health aspects of it, only the Public Health aspects, then it cannot go ahead. I may add that I am told by the law officers that I have powers under another piece of legislation, 1 forget the name of it, but 1 can find that if necessary.

But there is another piece of legislation under which l can order it stopped anyway if it is a detriment to Public Health. So I think the answer to the question would be "yes.'' HON. E. S. JONES (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I have a number of answers. Question (172) asked by the hon. member for Humber East, that one has already been answered. Question

(143) I will try if I can to keep them in order. Some of these questions were asked some time ago. Question (143) has been referred to the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Now there is a question asked on May 27 by the hon. the member for St. John's West. This question has already been aaswered in

part in an answer to Question (178) and 1 will now give him the additional information. This is partly an answer to (178) and partly an answer to a question raised by an bon. member. The space occupied by Computer Corporation 15,991 square feet, or approximately 16,000 square feet. Total cost $92 , 140, the average cost per foot being five dollars and seventy-six cents . And the cost included all the alterations necessary for Computer Corporation to move into the building on a turnkey basis, but does not include furnishings or equipment.

I would like to table the answer to question (181) on the Order Paper of March 6, by the hon. the member for St. John's Center. Also on the Order Paver of March 9 by the same hon. gentleman, ~~17G

.lune 1, 1970 Tape 01046 P.age 4 the answer to Question (206) on the Order Paper of March 9 by the hon. the member for Gande~. Question (205) on the Order Paper of March 9. Question (207) by the hon. the member for St. John's Center. On the Order Paper of April 6, by the hon. the member for St. John's. Question (236) this has to do with expenditures under the general contingency account. And on the Order Paper of April 9 by the same hon. gentleman, the answer to Question (290). On the Order Paper of April 8 by the same hon. gentleman, the member for St.

John's Center. nte answer to Question (293) the Order Paper of April 8 by the bon. the member for Gander. The answer to Question (301). On the Order Paper of April 9 the bon. the member for St. John's Center. The answer to Question (321). On the Order Paper of April 30 the hon. member for Bonavista North, the answer to Question (493). And on the Order Paper of May 27 by the hon. member for St. John's Center. The answer to Question (527). On the Order Paper · of May 29, by the hon. member for Labrador l-lest, Q~estion (539) • I find I have to go back to some earlier ones Mr. Speaker.

On the Order Paper of April 6, Question (242) by the hon. member for St. John's Extern. And on the Order Pa~er of April 9 by the bon. the member for Burin, the answer to Question (334). And on the Order Paper of April 10, by the bon. member for St. John's Nest, the answer to Question (365). HO~~ L. R. CURTIS (President of the Council): Mr. Speaker, I will be tabling in a few minutes ( I came up from the office without it) the report of the Commission on the Police. On motion, that the House go into Committee of the Whole on Supply. Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Education and YoUth. 620-Q7. 620-10 HON.

F. W. ROWE (Minister of Education): 620 was carried. 621 it is. 621-01 MR. H. R. V. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, on the Vocational heading generally - I have a couple of questions for the hon. minister. I understand that under the DREE program there will be some assistance coming forward for the ~~1 67

encouragement of vocational training. I recall that the great needs seem to be for the enlargement of some of the district vocational schools. Some of them were more than filled to capacity. They ~ere overflowing actually, and there were a couple of others that were not doing too well. 1 think notably at that time Port-aux-Basques and Lewisporte. 1 am wondering if it is the intention of the Vocational Training Division to add to the present schools, and if so, where, and for what purpose and what sort of additional courses, or is it for more students or what is the purpose?

Or if it is the intention to try to eventually add new Vocational schools in new areas. The question very briefly is; are the present schools to be added to, and if so where, and for what purpose? Or if there are to be new Vocational Schools entirely? MR. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I can answer that very quickly I think. Number one; all our schools are being used now to the maximum. That is true,t~at were in the early days thereAone or two schools that were not, but all our schools of the dozen schools are being utilized to the maximum. That is number one.

Number two; this year 1 under the DREE program, we are makin~ what we hope will be a very substantial addition to the school for Gander, at Burin and at Seal Cove. At Seal Cove we are engaged in a very interesting experiment there in conjunction with the two other school boards tn Conception Bay South.

As far as the new program is concerned, that whole thing is under discussion in negotiation now in connection with the DREE agreement, keeping in mind of course that wh ~ has been agreed on through the DREE agreement is only a one-year program, some of which will undoubtedly be spread over two years, because you cannot do it all in the one year. But I am not in a position to say now, and I do not know just when we will be, where any new schools, if any, will be built.

I would hope that under the new DREE program that there will be new schools built, and .I would hope also that under that program some of the other existing ' y .

... . lune 1, 1970 Tape f/1046 Page 6 schools will be enlarged, but this whole matter is a very live one and I am quite sure that later on this year there will be &ome interesting developments. MR. EARLE: Is this school at Happy Valley - is this a vocational school or is it an adult training center? MR. ROWE: It would be a Vocational School. HR. EARLE: It is not operating as such yet, is it? MR. ROWE: No0 no, Under the DREE program there is to be a school built there in Happy Valley. 621-01 Carried. 02-01 HR. J. C. CROSBIE: Salaries.

The Vocational teaching training teachers are being dealt with separately by the Government than for the rest of the Civil Servants. Is it likely that the vote for salaries will increase this year? Is it proposed that there is to be an increase this year, or how is that to be dealt with? They do not come under the general scheme MR. ROWE: No, the instructional staff of the Vocational schools have to be dealt with at the same time as we are negotiating with the teachers generally. MR. CROSBIE: Oh, I see. Next year. MR. ROWE: Right. carried. 01 Carried. 02 - Hll.

MURPHY: I notice there has been quite Gn increase in the votes for office expenditare. MR. ROWE: There has been a general increase in office expenditure but if you divide that by twelve, there are twelve schools involved, and of course some of these are involved - have had extra work because of the Manpower commitments and so on. But if you divide that by twelve it only works out at about $1,000 additional per school which is not exactly substantial.

.__.., __ ----· _.,. . MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall (02) carry? Carried . On motion 621(03)(01) to 621(03) (03) carried. Shall 621(03)(04) carry? MR. EARLE: On (04), Mr. Chairman,Allowances to Students, I ~otice there is a alight increase this year. This I take it is partially paid by the Depar~t of Manpower. Is there any increase in the number of students that is being looked after or is it declining? MR. ROWE: this does not include Manpower as Manpower comes down below, I think. This is our Provincial allowances that we pay to all vocational students to enable them to go to - KR.

EARLE: It is completely paid by the Pr~ ince. MR. ROWE: Yes. MR. CROSBIE: What is the rate of that? MR. ROWE: I do not have the exact figures here, Mr. Chairman, but the advice I am given is that there is a formula for,according to whether a person is married or single and as to whether he is at home or away from home. If, for example, he is in Lewisporte and a resident of Lewisporte going to the Vocational School in Lewisporte he would get, I think, $12.50 a week

whereas if he has to go to Gander or some place where he has to board, St. John's, he would get, I think, $22.50 a week. It is a well established formula and I would be glad to get it, 1 do not have it here right now with me but 1 think it is $12.50 and $22.50, I think we can clarify this. KR. SPEAKER: One at a time, please. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to rise and sp •sa k on this.

I have heard it arise on several occasions where some ~ f the s e students particularity married men while attending Vocational Training School are paid a rate, I do not know I will just say $75.00 a week, you know a man with dependants and this type of thing. But the point I am trying to make is when they graduate and go into various jobs, I was thinking of heavy equipment operators in some cases that I have heard of and I just want to get ic confirmed, that they take a cut in pay when they actually go to work. I s this true or a fallac~ or what is it? MR.

ROWE: TJis would have no bearing on this particular vote here as this would ~~so

HR. ROWF.:: come under Manpower and it 1• pos•ible th~oretically and I suppose in practise it does happen that a person getting under the Manpower allowance,! am anticipating here, Hr. Chairman, that this will come up in as much as the bon. gentleman has asked the question now, it is theoretically possible I suppose that a person getting an allowance under Manpower, after he leaves the training center going out to work 7 may earn less than he was getting for a time but I do not imagine that is the general rule. MR.

MURPHY: No, I would just like to have under the proper heading a discussion and just find out if this is absolutely true and give us the relative figures on just what is happening. HR. ROi-lE: This, Mr. Chairman, is entirely a Federal Government program and we do not have anything to do with it at all. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall (04) carry? MR. CROSBIE: (04)- These are allowances for students who do not come under· the Federal. I think the Federal allowance is that you have to be out in the vork force for, how many years? MR. ROWE: Three years or one. MR.

CROSBIE: Three years or one and these are paid to students who come out of school and go to a Trade School. MR. ROWE: This has nothing to do with the Manpower program, this is our program. MR. CROSBIE: I know that, yes. HR. ROWE: And we in turn have nothing to do with the }' :.power program. HR. CROSBIE: Right but we are paying them to .s t'-l,i· --~ ts who come out of school and go on to Trade School and have not been out in the work force. MR. ROWE: Precisely, that is right. HR. CHAIRMAN: Shall (05) carry? Carried. Shdl (06) carry? Carried. Shall (08) carry? MR. EARLE: Mr. Chai.rman, on (08).

There was an item somewhere previously which I questioned about vocational courses in high school and there is an industrial g ~: ant, I think, for industriR .- training in some of the high schools. This grant tJ high schools, just what does it cover? ~48~.

MR. ROWE: Government schools have commercial classes and stenographic classes and this is the grant to those schools. HR. EARLE: Are there schools other than the trade schools still offering commercial? MR. ROWE: Yes, I would think so, a number of schools. MR. EARLE: Where are they? Not at St. John's are they? MR. ROWE: I do not know but the Holy Heart has, I believe, a large class up there and one of the Grand Falls schools has one as well and I think Corner Brook. There are four or five of the bigger schools that still have their commercial courses going and they get a grant from us. MR.

MURPHY: How is this grant based? Is it on so many pupils? MR. ROWE: I presume it is on a a per capita basis. There is a formula for the number of machines, typewriters, and pupils. MR. CHAI&~~ Shall (OB) carry? Carried. Shall (09) carry? MR. EARL~: On (09), Mr. Chairman, this one does not seem to advance very far. There is a comparatively small amount here $4,800. I recall that this was always a subject of a lot of discussion with industry, in training and co-operation with industry.

In fact one of the most frequent criticisms of our vocational system was that the boys and girls coming out of these schools were not always trained to adapt themselves to the particular industry in which they were going. I recall that there was supposed to be set up a joint committee between the industry and the vocational, in fact I think it was provided for under the agreement, but this committee for some reason or anothe r ~ever seem to get functioning. I . think there was a problem in gettfr ,,; !:.r. ~ proper representation from labour unions as they were involved in this also.

It seems to me that it is a great pity that training in co-operation with industry has not advanced because most certainly it would seem logical that people who had to be trained in the trade schools are certainly for· industry and there should be complete giant action between industry and the schools. I am wondering if the Minister could give us some explanation of what is happening in that respect? MR. ROWE: I do not think that matt er that the hon. gentleman refered to comes e:'Ar.'l I~ 0 ~ .•

June 1st, 1970 Tape 1047 .... JM- 4 MR •. ROWE: under this heading. This is where an industry applies to Manpower for some specifie training, they need a ~pecial kind of persons and Manpower then consults with us or refers it to us~and we get together with•them and these are our incidental expenses. We do not pay the cost of it but these are incidental expenses connected with it. HR. EARLE: Has the committee with industry developed? Is there a joint action committee with industry? MR. ROWE: No, I do not think there is much being done .in that right now. The actual training in itself we do tn cc-operation.

The Department of Labour would further apprentices to us. They select them and we do the training for them and then of course they pay us for it and Ottawa in turn pays its share. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall (09) carry? Carried. Shall (10) carry? Carried. Shall (11) carry? Carried. Shall (12) carry? AN HON. MEMBER: (InaUdihle). MR. ROWE: The explanation for that is that all over the Province there are some buildings that have to be rented for special purposes in connection with vocational training and this $5,900. is meant to cover that. It is mainly for adult education programs. HR. CHAIRMAN: Shall (12) carry? Carried.

Shall 621(04) carry? MR. EARLE; On (04), Mr. Chairman, this is I take it the Provincial share of it cost the Manpower training $200,000. I notice ther ~ is a contribution of $2,250,000. from Canada and I am wondering in this connection what do we have to pick up anything for? I thought this whole Manpower training was done under the Canadian contribution and yet it is costing $200,000. to the Provincial Government and in replying the Minister might say under what criteria-are these chaps chosen? Is it in co-operation with the employment office?

Haw are they selected and are they selected with particular jobs in view or are they just selected at random? MR. ROWE: 1 am advised, Mr. Chairman. that tl-ese were some special courses not covered in the ordinary Manpower program and we are requested to put on these special courses and we have to pay for them and then we claim back the ~4G:1

MR. ROWE: money. MR. WELLS: Requested by whom? MR. ROWE: Requested by Manpower, by Federal Manpower. MR. WELLS: We are requested to put them on at our own expenses entirely. MR. ROWE: No, no, we put them on and spend the money and claim the money back. We get the money back. MR. WELLS: So this is in effect part of the $2,250,000. that will be recovered so that the gross expend~ture will still only be $2,250,000. MR. ROWE: Yes, I presume that is so. MR. EARLE: The answer on how are they selected, how are they -? MR. ROWE: By Manpower.

For example I remember a specific case where we were asked to train some rod and lines men as there was an immediate need for them so they came and said:"Look we can find jobs for X number of rod and lines men who have to be trained right away, will you do the training right away and we will pay for it'i" So we set up the training course, I think that was down in Labrador, anyway it was somewhere in the Province MR. EARLE: Does Manpower only pay for these people for which there are jobs available? Are they only training these people as they are needed? HR. RO~: Well, we do not know that_as the Manpower asks us.

The Manpower says to us, ''We want twenty heavy equipment men, we are buying from you twenty heavy equipment men.'' They send twenty men to Stephenville but we do not know if there are jobs available but presumably Manpower would not pay for their training and ask us to train them if the jobs were no · available and I think in a vast majority of cases they go right to w~ rk)~mmediately. MR. EARLE: Roughly what percentage of the students are in these schools under Manpower training? Would it be half, quarter or two-thirds? MR.

ROWE: We do not have that information but we could get it for you and it would take a -little time if my bon. friend would care for us to do that. MR. CRAIRHAN: Shall (04) carry? Carried. MR. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, under (07) there is an omission here we would like to have a total amount put in there of $100.00 u~der (07)(01). I wonder if my bon. colleague would move it.

Junf! 1st, 1970 Tape 1047 " JM - 6 MR. JONES: Mr . Chairman, I would like to remind my hon. colleague that that motion was made earlier and I have already made note of it. MR. ROWE: That one as \fell. MR. NEARY: That was under the College of Trades and Technology. MR •. CROSBIE: Technical College. MR. JONES: "That was voted as 621(07)(01), Mr. Chairman. MR. ROWE: That is the College of Trades and Technology. MR. JONES: Well, are we not now on 621(07)(01)? MR. ROWE: That is right. MR. JONES: I have it here, Mr. Chairman, in m.y vote - HR. ROWE: I do think the motion was made. \ MR .

JONES: Well, I am quite sure, Mr. Chairman. I did not go home and dream it. MR. EARLE: It was made, Mr. Chairman, under 620(07)(01) and this is 621(07). MR. ROWE: Yes, my hon. friend may have made a m.istake. MR. EARLE: That is another $100.00. MR. ROWE: That is right, that is another $100.00. He is not going to get off that easy. MR. WELLS: Would the Minister tell the Committee- MR. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, that 620(07)(01) we ask to have $100.00 put in, now under 621(07)(01) we ask to have another $100.00 put in and I think there is one more case coming up later on. MR.

WELLS: Would the Minister tell the Committee what that is for? KR. ROWE: It is a nominal vote but in the event t h0. we have negotiations thing vith Ottawa the first"they say is: "Do you hav e a vote?u t:ven if we say we have a nominal vote of $100.00 that satisfies, that meets the technical requirements that there is a vote there. We can negotiate with them, we can transfer money theoretically under savings,if you have it or in the event that you had to get a special warrant,for some program you could do it once you have the vote there. MR.

WELLS: \o!ould the Minister tell the Co;umittee if he contemplates anything at this poin t ? Does he contemplat e any expendlture under this item at this point? I;'A~f':j I ':.t \..1 c

.. June lat, 1970 Tape 1047 JM - 7 HR. ROWE: We have nothing definite at the present time. It is just a precaution for us at this time but we have nothing definite in mind but the officials with whom we are dealing, all our officials are advising me on it and they say it is very important from the standpoint of dealings with Ottawa th~t we have this token vote there even if we do not spend it. It is there if the occaSion does arise. MR. EARLE: That reminds me, Mr.

Chairman, under the old agreements under the old vocational agreements there was outstanding, I think, a credit for the Province of several million dollars which up to the time I left was not available for capital construction. I wonder under the new arrangements has that been washed out or is it still available? Are there still some of these old grants available and how much is available? MR. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I mentioned that as a matter of fact in answer to a question the other day but I do not think my hon. friend was here. There is a fund available up there to us on a fifty-fifty basis.

Last year Ottawa provided, I think, in their estimates $2. million but we did not take it up, we took up $30,000. or $40,000. because we were not prepared to go ahead on a program this past year. We do not lose that money, that is still there for us to pick up if we decide,for example in connection with the DREE program. Suppose under the new four or five year program with DREE suppose there is a program whereby ve have to find twenty-five per-cent of the cost of the DREE program we can then call on our share of the money in Ottawa in order to contribute our twenty-five per-cent.

It is there, it is a credit.As the thing scands at the present time it is a fifty-fifty thing as we have to spend one dollar for every dollar we get from them. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the motion carry? Carried. Shall 621(09)(03) carry? Carried. Shall (03) carry? Carried. Shall (04) carry? Carried. Shall (05) carry? MR. WELLS: Mr.

Chairman, on this item there is a long outstanding item that has now been the subject of comment in two successive reports of the Auditor General concP.rning construction and alteration of the vocational schools particularily the Vocational Schools Western Building Corporation Limited a ~{15G ; . ' '

MR. WELLS: balance of $157,696. that is receiveable. In his latest report the Auditor General says recovery has not been made and he refers to his previous comment in his earlier report " ••• I have asked the corporation to cohsider obtaining an opinion from the Department of Justice on whether the right to recovery aay · become prescribed and if prescription is a possibility what steps maybe taken to interrupt it? " Can the Minister advise the Committee whether or not that right to claim the $157,696. has been presc r ibed or whether or not he has received an opinion from the Department of Justi~e on it. MR.

ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I do not have any information on that at hand. It wa.s my understanding that this was being handled by the Department of Finance but I do not know if my colleague would have any information right now on that. MR. JONES: No I have not right at hand. MR. ROWE: It could be obtained I presume. MR. JONES: If you would l .ike to give me that question in writing . MR. CROSBIE: That is on the Order Paper now. MR. WELLS: Rather than do it in wtiting would the Minister undertake to provide the information as he knows now what the question is.

Whether or not an opinion has been received and is the claim likely to be prescribed? It is on page twenty-one in the Auditor General's report, the whole thing is there. If it goes a certain number of years we will have no way to claim it, six years and that school has been built now, that or more has it not? MR. ROBERTS: Six from the time - MR. WELLS:: When the right arose. MR. ROBERTS: When it was put in writing. MR. WELLS: When the right arose unless there has been a partial payment or some other acknowledgement in the meantime. MR. ROBERTS: I think the lawyers are at it, they have been at it for years. HR.

WELLS: That is right, if there is many more years it will be prescribed. MR. ROWE: One way or the other we can get tha t information, if we do not have we will get it and supply it here. We will take note of it now. MR. WELLS: I thank the Minister . MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall (05) carry? Carried. !ihall (07) carry? t=;'A G7 '"1 ·) •J 0 L

~ape 1047 JM - 9 HR. CROSBIE: I think (07) should stand until we get the answers. Mr. Chairman, either {05) or (07) should stand until the information is obtained that the Minister is going to get. MR. ROWE: But (05) is the one, is it not? MR •. CROSBIE: But it could be either one. (07) is the rent or purchase for

J.a~e .lU4t! PK - 1 MR. CROSBIE; for these corporations including Western Building Corporation Limited. MR. ROl-lE, F.IJ. If the committee wishes we could let ~hat stand, let 05 stand, my colleague the Minister of Health is going to see if he can get that information now. Thank you. MR. \,'ELLS: We will let it stand, Mr. Chairman, 05. MR. CHAIR}u~~: Is it agreed that 05 stand? Agreed. !iR. ROWE, F .I~. Mr. Chairman asked is it agreed that 05 stand, and I said, agreed. MR. Cl~IR}urn: Shall 07 carry? Carried. Shall 622-02-01 carry? MR. WELLS: Mr.

Chairman, on 622-02-01, I have a couple of quest1ons that I would like the minister to advise the House on, I believe, it was last year or the year before. I think, though it was last year. The minister advised the llouse, that the payments from hereon in to tlemorial University would be calculated ~y way of a formula , so much per student, and then it was up to the management of the University to best spend it in the best interest of students.

Hould he advise the House, whether or not there has been any change in that formula, if it is the same per student formula, and how successful the formula has been in terms of the University being able to achieve its aims in all the programs that it would like to carry outl' MR. ROIVE;, F .W.

I am very happy to say that that formula which was negotiated between our Treasury Board and the Department r:' :Jucation and the University authorities some months ago, wljere they agreed on, and at the time it was $2,000 that still stands, $2,000 per student equivalent, which means to say if there are 5,000 full-time students, well they get 5,000 times that. And if there are a 1,000 part-time s tudents, who will equate to,let us say.400 full-time students, then they will get 400 times $2,000 there.

I can only say at the time that this was done, at the time that I announced it for the Government, the President of the University, the Vice -Chancellor there, L~rd Taylor, make a pub J ~ c statement in which he indicated their satisfaction with t his particular formula. Now I am not tooaware that he said, thia will give us ample money;· I dot1bt that any university in the world ~'.13!1

_Jupe 1st. 1970 Tape 1048 PK - 2 MR. ROWE, F.W. would ever admit that they had ample money for all their needs . But, at least it is a big improvement",from their standpoint. The improvement arises from the fact that they have something definite to work on. They know that~under this agreement, they are going to have $2,000 per student anyway,

whereas in the past they have been living in uncertainity from one year to another, and from one month to another. This I think will w6rk out very well . MR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, one is rather irrelevant , to discuss this in a sort of a critical manner, because,the first thing,people will say that you are against university, against motherhood or something else.

But in view of this, this grant of $2,000 per pupil,and in view of the fact that last year some 550 to 600 students did not show, return, you know the anticipated number did not come up to the actual number that they had anticipated , it was short by some 550 or 600 students, I am just wondering, how pupil ratio to teacher or professor is there ~ !here has been much criticism outside of some professors only teaching perhaps two hours or iour hours a week, and as I say;do not take this for granted now, that I want to burn down the University or bulldoze it down, but I am just wondering what is the actual.

We give them money. We went through all of this last year,with much discussion back and forth, one thing and another and we were not in a position perhaps to have the University table their budget, so it could be discussed. But in view of t his, I am just wondering what is the actual situation with ~e ; 1 to pupil teacher ratio . and the actual work load carried by our p ~ o f essors, as compared to other universities7 I do not know, if this information is available, but I think it is time. MR . RO"~• F.W.

Well, actually I could say and I am sure my hon. friend will understand what I said, and this is reall y none of our, I mean "our" being the Department of Education,or the Go"ernment's business, in one sense of the word, The University itsel i decided what is going to be its ~4~0

June 1st. 1970 Tape 1048 BK-3 MR. ROWE, F.W. ratio of students to faculty staff and so on. But I do want to make it clear that this $2,000, we do . not simply say to the University or I will put it the other way around, the University does not simply say to us~ ~ook,we got 6,000 give us that.· They have to send us their statements and we pay on a monthly basis, so that if for exa~e, if that number varies • ; . to any degree throughout the year then their grant is adjusted accordingly. AfLHON". l-IE~ffiER~ Inaudible. MR.

ROWE, F.W+ Yes, precisely. lJe prorate it on a monthly basis, This enables the University to carry on, you know, its finances properly on that . MR . MRUPRY; We have no idea of the teacher ratio, as compared •.•• NR. ROlffi, F.W. No, we could get this as a matter of grace from the Univetsity, but it does not enter the picture at all. The University decides how many they are going to have, how many staff they require, for example, for the teaching of sociology, we cannot tell them. MR. MURPHY: Now the only reason I bring this up, Mr. Chairman, is reference to high schools and everything else.

You know, I mean they are cut d~wn and bound in and tied ip and so on and so forth. But

whereas in my opinion, following the bon. minister's remarks, the University says, look we need $10 million, $15 million, $25 million and we say yes, let us have it, you know, to our capacity, We do not give them all that they would like . B ut the rules on it seem to be very lose as compared to the high schools,and the elementary schools are bting tied down. That is the only point that I would like to make. MR. Rotffi, F .W. No, the situation is, Hr . Chairman, the information is that our University has the highest in the nation, that is the highest number of students per member of the staff, per staff member.

MR. MURPHY: It has the highest. ~ffi. ROWE, F.W. Yes, the highest, that is the i nf ormation we have, we do know that it is certainly much higher than most of the universities, tor example; it is higher than Dalhousie, and much higher than say a great university like Toronto. The simple fact is t ha.t the University has a full-time student

June 1st. 1970 Tape 1048 PK -4 HR. ROtiE, F.W. there for the whole year, we are obligated to give to the University $2,000. If they have a student there on half time for the year, we are obligated ~o give the University $1,000, and everything else is in proportion to that, it is all prorated. MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, on this matter that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition raised, last year there was a bad miscalculation, appro:dmatley 500 students did not show.

Nov there was a great deal of negotiation at the time of the preparation of the University's Budget, and they claimed they were down to a very bare minimum, all they covld get along on. Now if students cost the University $2,000 a year each, and there were 500 that did not show up, that is $1 m~llion somewhere, Did the University, when it showed its budget this year, did~it show a credit balance of $1 million, which they had Available from last year? MR. ROWE, F.W. No, we were not on the formula last year. This is the advantage, Mr.

Chairman, of having the formula, N~· in the past we said to the University, we will give you, let us say, $9 million as we did last year, and that was it. And if the University only registered 2000 students, they still got their $9 million, and if they registered 7000 they still only got the $9 million, That is no Tr7ay for a University to carry on really, nobody can carry on under that. Under this present formula they will only get the.money they are entitled to per student. MR. EARLE: Mr.

Chairman, the budget of $2,000 per students have nothing whatever to do with last year, but then we were not on that formula. But it is still I presume costing $2 1 000 per student. MR. ROWE. F.l-1. No, it was not. MR. EARLE: Well, whatever it was ,they said they t-1ere opearting on a bare minimum. Now the fact was, we argued this for a long, long time and we gave the University what they could to run along on. But 500 students did not turn up. So certainly they must be able to operate a lot cheaper• a was therg~credit balance carried into this year~ It should have been ~4D2

t'.l<. - - HR. ROHE, F.W. No. The reason for that, they said they never had enought money to start off with, .~ ·,·,._\ )'ou will remember, that there were even some ominous indication that they might even have to curtai~ enrolement there, they did not as it turned out, because to start off with, they did not only get an unexpected enrolement, they got below the expected enrollment. Had I they gotten an unexpected enrollment, they would have been in the position y . of coming to the Government and saying, we have not got enough money to run on, we are going to have to refuse to take these in.

We said at that point, if that happens come to us, and we will talk it over. My hon. friend must remember that. But as it happened, they did not get, and this was ·. fer reasons outside their control, I suppose, some general financial situation was such, whatever the reasons anyway, the 'act is they did not get their expected enrollment, they did not get it the year before for that matter. And as a result, they were able to get along on the amount that · we had given Ln the Block Vote we made them. But it is still not a satisfactory way to do it. HR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, This item is the Grants in Aid for Hemorial University, $11.5 million. Now this is to operate the whole University, They pay for their own repairs and maintenance, Cleaning and everything comes under this $1.5 million. MR. WELLS: We do not know. $1,750,000 tuition. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Well, the Hedical School, is in the rlealth Department Vote. Right. HR. ROBERTS: Then,in addition . , the buildings are carried under the capital votes under the ••••• This is their operating budget. tlR. CROSBIE: It is the operating budget of the University. • MR.

ROBERTS: No. they have their own tuition, research grants. MR. CROSBIE: But this is the basic amount, they get to operate the University.

June 1st. 1970 Tape 1048 MR. CROSBIE: And the minister says, that the basic unit hae been agreed, of $2,000 a student, a full time student. Now dbes that grant vary depending on whether you are in Education or Arts? MR. ROWE, F.W. No, not at all. The whole thing is averaged out $2,000. NR. CROSBIE: Well, I agree this is the only reasonable way. this is f'K- o the right way to decide on how much money the University is going to have. But I notice that at Queen's University. they get a basic income unit and in Ontario also, the basic income unit in 1969-70 was valued at $15,:>6.·:, .

It is to be Eraised to $16~0 : in 1970-71, a six percent increase. And !~ should go to $1730 next year. Now that is the basic income unit. MR. ROWE, F.H. I will explain that. MR. CROSBIE: Right, When I am finished if the hon. minister would explain it. But I mean this is calculated on a different basis, because depending on what faculty the student is in. MR. ROWE, F.\~. Before my hon. friend, is he finished? MR. CROSBIE: No, 'well, I had a few other points that I was going to make. So, I think, this is a good bases for doing this.

Now, would the minister tell ~. the minister still has,the Hemorial University still..presents a budget to the Government, do they not? They show a breakdown of how they are going to spend the money. MR. ROWE, F.W. Well in the past they presented a budget. No. NO, in the past they presented a budget .. ·It '1>7as in th<:! discussions and negotiations regarding that budget that this fo..:rr,:la of $2,000 was arrived at. MR. CROSBIE: SD now they do not present a budget. HR. ROWE, F.W. I cannot anticipate what the Cabinet may decide. the Cabinet may still require a general budget this year.

The budget,! might say.has naver been broken down. MR. CROSBIE: Well did the minister receive a budget from the University this year. showing any breakdown?

June lat. 1970 Tape 1048 PK - 7 MR. ROWE . F.W. Yes. MR. CROSBIE: So they provide that for the minister's information, if he wants it, . Dut you do not necessarily require it, because you have agreed on the formula now. MR. Rom:, F .--w. In the pan we have required it, because we had to try to ne~otiatc an amount. But now with a formula, frankly, personally, I do not see the need for us to have the breakdown in the budget. MR. CROSBIE: Well, now what is going to happen1 ~e are discussing the University generally now, The capital account,of course, is an entirely different matter.

What the Government can spend on capital account to build buildings and the rest of it, would of course, still have to be negotiated every year. It depends on what money the Government has available. MR. ROWE, F.W. And also ~hat help we can get from Ottawa on this too. MR. CROSBIE: Right. l notice at Queen's University, for example, this year willget $7, 161,000. They got some kind of a system up there, The province tells the University how much they are going to get, and it is divided among the various universities. MR. ROWE. F.\>7. That •· is where the averages come in on this. MR.

CROS~IE: Now on capital accounts, then these are matters that still have to be agreed of course, between the Government and the University authorities. We are n.ot down to the item yet, the minister will probably explain the $2,550,000 for this year, when we ~- down to it. But, I notice, Mr. Chairman, that the President ~[ ~ ne University, I think,said that the University is going to need $75 million over the next, I do not know the period, three or four years,in his address at a Graduation there several weeks ago.

And one can easily see how that must be correct, because the Medical School and the University Hospital alone,if both went ahead,would be $48 million or $50 million. 1 think ther ~ is suppose to be a school of Forestry up there. to be paid for by the Federal Government,a~d Engineering School. there is no construction on the Enbineering School yet. And the ~495

June 1st. 1970 Tape 1048 PK- 8 MR . CROSBIE: ot her f acil i ties that are need ed for t he Univers i ty, and the University is not bein~ voted very much money on capital account this year. Does the minister have any forecast of what is going to be required for the University over the next four or five years on capital account? You know, is there anything tentively agreed with the University, as to what capital money the Province may be able to provide for the University over the next four or five years?

Because the time is now rapidly approaching when they are going to have new buildings, if they are goinR to continue to accept all the students that are turning up. And what is the position on the Medical School? ~m. ROWE, F .W. Mr. Chairman, would it not be better if we waited until -~ got on t;1e item? Strictly speaking, we are not C'n it MR. CROSBIE: The Medical School is not in this, but on the University generally, does the Government or the minister have any forecast of what is going to be needed over the next four or five years, and where it is going to come from? MR.

CHALKER: The capital expenditure of Puhlic lolorks. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, but we are dealing with the Hinister of Education, ,.,ho must be the one who deals with the University on what their requirements and needs are in t he next four or five years~ They seem to feel that they are going to get monies under DREE. Does the minister agree, that this is going to be a source of funds? And could he ou\·l ine ,for us, what the projections are?

And another question I have che fact that there is no Chancellor at the University. there has not been a chancellor now for two or three years, and I believe it is the responsibility of the Government to see to the appointment of a Chancellor. ~~Y is that position still vacanted? Is the Government try i ng to find a Chancellor for the University, is the Governmen't unable to f i nd 2 6hancellor? Would the minister give us some information on that ? MR. ROBF.RTS: Well, Mr. Chairman, H I cot1ld just say a word on the one simple point, my colleague will deal with the others towards the relevance 1)~5(i

... . June 1st, 1970 TApe 1048 PK- 9 MR. ROBERTS: of the weight fot'lTIUla. The member of St. John's West referred to the Ontario system, which is not quite analogoai· _ here, ~ou know, in Ontario, Mr. Chairman, they have a formula under which each discipline is weighed~ I think a Medical student is weighed as four units, and an Art student is one, and a graduate student is three, and an engineering student is one and a-half or two. And this is a me~s of computing how much of an operating grant is given by the Department of University Affairs in Ontario, to each of the schools and the universities involved.

He did not go into that here, Hr. Chairman, because it was not necessary. t-ie only have the one University, the weight formula is appropriate only when you have to divide up a given sum of money among more than one University, where it becomes relevant to take into consideration the fact that some students cost more to educate than others, and the mixes in different universities differ of course. Our position is much similar to that of New Brunswick·, which only has one University also. They pay a straight per capita grant, a per capita grant, which I think this year is about $2200, our is $2,000 so. MR.

ROWE, F.W. We give other benefits. MR . ROBERTS: Well, we do provide other benefits, but I think our grant while it is adequate for the University, Mr. Chairman, the University are going to have to continue to run a fairly taught ship to live within the $2,000. They can live within it, Sir, and I thi~ ' · they can live adequately and well. ~m. WELLS: We include the free tuition that the Government pays, is there a total grant of about $2300! MR. ROBERTS: Yes, the University's budget is more than even that of course. Mr.

Chairman, because the tuition is paid only on the bases of a needs test, as are the allowance and eo they get income f ;·om students who do not qualify in their needs tests. And of course, the University have some revenue ~y means of research grants from l'ledical Research of Canada, and the National Research Council of Canada, and various foundations, that is in their total budget.

Jun~ lat. 1970 Tape 1048 PK - 10 HR. WELLS: Does the University have any endowments? MR. ROBERTS: Yes, they do, Mr. Chairman, I do not have details, I know one nearly $800,000 the bequest from the late Mrs~ Harvey. I think they have a chair now, it ia at theUniversity's disposal~he Henrietta Harvey Estate, and I think it is around $800,000. lt is a very large sum of money. I believe, that is their only endowment, perhaps more of our Newfoundlanders ~ould choose to give something back to the Province that has done so much for so many Sir, by leaving endowments to the University.

It has not started here yet, and depending on Mr. Benson, the Government of Canada do with their taxation policies, it may never start. But it is something that in other provinces does come into being. It has not happened in Newfoundland, perhaps it will. But that is another subject, I do not want to delay the committee, Mr. Chairman, I wanted to deal with the point raised by the hon. member for St. John's West. I can assure you that Queen's University in Kingston, which is his alma mater, is getting a great deal more money per student from the Government of Ontario, than we are able to give to Memorial here.

My own alma mater at Toronto, I just notice the figures there, are $2 million to $3 million short next year, because of wages increases they have had to give. I can only say, I have some sympathy with their position, Sir.

...... June 1 1970 Tape 1049. page 1. MR.CHAIRMAN: 622-09-05. MR.WELLS: Would the miniater now anavar the questions that have . been raised by the member for St. John's West, University construction and what the minister foresees is the need in the next four or five years of the University, would he mind telling us what the $2.5 million is proposed to - MR.ROWE: Yes, I have a breakdown of that somewhere, it actually cornea under the Department of Public Works there but I recall some installations at Logy Bay in connection with the biology lab there. Site ~ork for the north campus $300,000.

Additional floors to the old south building, science building, is $1.7 million. Temporary buildings $350,000, and planning for the Engineering school is $200,000. MR.WELLS: There is nothing here for the medical school on campus. MR. ROWE: Not in that, no. No, that would come under Health and Public Work&. Now the other question asked by the bon. member for St. John's West- 1 can only deal with the more general terms and say this~ We have heard the statements made by the President of the University and we have had discussions with them.

Over the next five years or so they are going to need $75 million I think is one figure that has been mentioned. Over the next five years~. or so. And whether or not that prog:;ramme is carr .ied out is a horse of another colour. And I should say this, and I would think that whether or not that general programme is carried out entirely, fully and to that extent would depend in part on negotiations we are carrying on with Ottawa under the DREE programme as well. I would think. As of right now I am not able to give any details on this thing at all I do know these matters are under very iD111ediate discussion.

As a 11111tter of fact no later than this morning these matters were under discussion · MR.WELLS: Would the minister tell the House the logical reasons behind havin g all other parts of the University in the Depart . ~nt of Education where it properly belongs and the medical school under department of Health. 1 realize it relates to medicine, but why are the estimates and so on for the medical r;;':1i)!)

June 1 1970 Tape 1049 page 2. school as such HR.ROWE: I do not mind I am not revealing any deep secret but I tell you we had no strong feelings ourselves in the Government on this matter. We vere quite prepared to have this come under the Department of Education but the University seem to prefer to have it under the Department of Health and there are precedence for it in other parts of Canada -· • Hlt..WELLS: Why what is the reason? MR.RDWE: I do not know the logic of it, as I say we had no strong feelings one way or the ~~ther • The same thing would a~ply to other matters we have.

We have the School for the Deaf. for example under Public Welfare, and so on. But since we had no strong feelings one way or theother the minister of Health ' . did not and I did not. The University did think it should be there,well we weat along with it. MR.E.ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman. may I just add one word? I think the feeling is that while the medical school is developing,which it is now,they have a first year class and next year they will have a second year class, the University it definitely wanted/held in the Health estimates. I do not know why Mr.

Chairma~ other than that-But they have asked and so we have agreed to it. but Hea.lth and Education work very closely on it. The Nussing School,which was formerly carried in Health Mr. Chairman, is now swept up on ·· e capitation grant and included in the $11.5 million is an amount of S20~u for each f~l time student equivalent in the Nursin.g School. Presumabl¥ in due course the medical school will go in. One other point MR. WELLS: Into Education? MR. ROBERTS: Into Education. One other point Mr.

Chairman of course the medical school on a per student basis. especialiy now. is much more expensive if they spend $850,000 last year and they had twenty-two students it would work out t.o forty odd thousand dolJ "'r~ a st.,udent. That is a misleading comparisoll because they have a faculty there that is larger than the student body at present. But there are good reasons for leaving it in Health and l 1}500

June 1 1970 Tape 1049 page 3. can go into more details. surely the hon. gentleman will want more when we come to my own estimates.in Health. MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, while sti.ll on Capital. The committee will recall that a couple of years ago there was quite an elaborate plan presented, made up by I think Sir Frederic Gibbert and the future development of the University as such.

For what the Minister has said about the expenditures this year there is not going to be a great deal of actual construction, I think he did .ention that the Marine Science Laboratory would have something doae and the under surface work around the grounds of the University and so on1 preparatory work of that nature. But we see a number of temporary buildings there over/going up all the time and the place is becoming a little crowded on the south side.

I am wondering if all of this that is being done and has been done is in conformity with that overal plan or are we sticking to that, in other words will there be a hope sometime in the future that we can go ahead without any interference from what has been done now! KR.ROWE: Yes, I do not think, our understanding is under the Department of Public Works that these temporary buildings there do not in any way interfere with the orderly progress of the main plan there. And it is certainly not as was the case of the old quonset building on the old campus it certainly will not represent a waste of money.

This is the ._.- .:erstanding we have. HR.EARLE: Before we get off the University j\; :c-..: ,.: final question. Little campus at Harlow, this is part of the drc.ve: lcpment of the University is it not? Has there any money been spent on that this year or is that completed or how is it progressing? MR.ROWE: We would not know that Hr. Chairman. That is in the UnYversity budget if there is any money ther~n their oper n ting budget and whether or not they are spending some money on that I frankly do not know. MR.HICKEY: Hr.

Chairman, I wonder •'ol.Old the minister tell us if any portion of this amount is to oe used fo~ payment ot the Doyle Residence, the Doyle House; HR.ROWE: What is that again? MR.ROBERTS: Cap~tal amount you mean?

June 1 1970 Tape 1049 page 4. MR.HICKEY: Would he tell us Sir, if the residence is paid for? M~.JONES: You mean, has the contractors bill been paid? KR.HICKEY! In so far as the Government is concerned, is there any debt on that piece of property at the moment1 MR.KOBERTS: No legal debt outstanding on it. MR.ROWE: None that I know of, I have never heard of any. MR.HICKEY: Who paid for it? MR. MURPHY: Mr. Doyle told me he did. MR.ROWE: I do not know if the hon. the Premier - MR.HICKEY: The residence known as the Doyle House.

MR.ROBERTS: He is talking about the donation - MR..B.OWE: The Doyle House I do not know - he wants to know if there is any debt on it. MR.HICKEY: What I am asking Mr. Chairman is apparently I am told it is paid for. I am asking who paid for it. MR.SMALLWOOD: John Doyle. MI..HICKEY: Mr. Doyle. MR.SHALLWOOD: In other words, his company or a group of them or Do~e himself paid half a million. MR.RICKEY: Mr.

Chairman, in that connection I have a number of questions, It .seems to be rather confusing to me that accord i!1.;; :_-, the information I have my colleague,the Leader of the Opposition I ~elieve it was, last year raised this question in the Rouse and he was advised to ask Mr. Doyle. He proceeded to write Mr. Doyle a letter and I believe Mr. Doyle personally,in the Chamber or just outside the Chamber,tol .d my colleague that this was paid for by him and ao on. Now the question I am asking is; who paid for the residence, where did the funds come from?

Because,acco r ding to my information,Mr.Doyle did not pay for it because the arrange•;• ent ~en which the donation was made in the beginning was two hundred sh ares of Jubilee Iron. Those two hundred shares Mr. Chairman did not appear in the Public Accounts for something over ~50~

June 1 1970 Tape 1049 page 5. three years. They were supposed to be issued from Corner Brook while we know the Trans-Canada is hazardous I do not think it is that hazardous that they did not finally appear in the Public Accounts for something over three years. Now, Mr.

Chairman, the important question, the main point is this: While those shares at that time might have been worth a fair amount of money might have been worth close to half a million dollars however the fact that those shares did not appear in the Public Accounts cannot apparently be traced to vbere they were at that time, a number of questions arises. First of all, where were the shares, why did they not appear in the Public Accounts if they were donated to the Government, in lieu of cash to pay for this residence, then obviously they must be considered as assets of. the Crown.

Why were they not in the Public Accounts? That is one question. Second question is: If they were not assets of the Crown or if they were used as collateral by Canadian Javelin or some other company then obviously the Newfoundland Government must have paid for this residence, out of the people's money. This may appear petty but, it is a lot to me, because Mr. Chairman, HR.SMALLWOOD~ It is not only paid for MR..HICKEY : Well Mr. Chairman, when I am finished I am sure someone will be goad enough to refute what I say or answer some que s tions. This is the purpose of the whole exercise.

It would appear to me that if the Newfoundland people paid for this House it should be renamed the Newfoundland House and not the Doyle House. MR. SMALLWOOD: Newfoundladd House I live in. MR.HICKEY: Well we can " always have the second one Mr. Chairman, we will find some way to distinguish between the two. KR.SMALLWOOD: Mr. Doyle did not give anyone any money he gave the building Mr. Doyle gave the build .ing. He donated the building. Be paid the contractor. And how he paid the contractor is the con~tractors business and Doyle's business and not the bon. gentleman's, not mine, not the Government's, nobody's ~50~

Jane 1 1970 Tape 1049 page 6. MR.JONES: Between him and the contractor who built it. MR.. SMALLWOOD: He donated a building. MR.BICKEY: Mr. Chairman, it is not my business how Mr. Doyle pays his bills. H!.SMALLWOOD: Right. rR.HICKEY: In so far as any private arrangement is concerned but as a msmber of this House it is my business - MR.SMALLWOOD: It was a private matter between him and the contractor. MR.HICKEY: It is my business Mr.

Chairman, and it is the business of all Newfoundlanders to determine whether or not someone who has a house a residence, a large residence valued at l500,000 named after him, and according to my~information did not pay for it. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the bon. gentleman's information is just incorreet the $200,000 - MR..HICKEY: Alright hhen Mr. Chairman let someone answer this question. Was there not, was there or was there not 200 shares of Jubilee Iron given to the Government - MR.SMALLWOOD: No, no. Not 200, not 2, not 2 million, none. MR.

HICKEY: Well I will check my information because my source appears very very good. MR.ROBERTS: The $200,000 Jubilee shares we have F . Chairman, were acquired by the Government is part of a share exchan ge ' ,<. d1 Nalco which was made public at the time. That is two or three years ago I do not remember the details. Doyle House was built by a contractor, 1 do not know by whom. HR. SMALLWOOD: Lundrigan. HR.ROBERTS: Lundrigan' s. The deal was between Mr. Doyle and Lundrigan's Limited • . ,. Bowaters who gave Bowater House and t rice Newfoundland who save RothmeTe House made the same deal with their contractors.

We paid no money it was not up to us. MR.SMALLWOOD: But what Doyle gave was a building. MR.ROBERTS: Whether it was paid for or not you will have to ask Mr. Doyle. MR.ROWE: The building is theYe. and that is that. !}50':'\

June 1 1970 Tapa 10~9 page 7. MR.filCXEY: 1: am aware of that Mr . Chainnan. the.r~ .i~e lllilny ways to gi.ve a building. t could g:ive a building tomort"ow and say 1 llJ'CI going to pay for It but if 1 d o not pay for it, you know , anyone can give buildings like that. Hll.ROBE~:. Ve did not pay for lt,it is the contractor& Mlt.BICKE\': Hr. Chainaao, I will not push the question any further at t his ti.e. 1 vill justify why l stood up co question it, MR.JWI3EllTS' ~ .·.

The hon. gentleman does not need to - MR.HICKEY: Obviously the question aciaes ~hat bappeoed to tbe shares. the Utst i.nstanee, and secondly, 1f this building was paid fot' .1n this manner ve all know that. Jubilee shares today is worth very li.ttle , A.s a matter of fact approxim a tely two weeks ago they were worth, those 200 shares were wot th •omething like in the order of $110,000 , MR.ROBERTSt Not lOO shares. We own something Uke 200,000 sha res . MR.BICKEY: Two bund'ted thousand shares, I am sorry cllat 1& eenect. KR.ROWE: And it has nothing to do with this buildln~hatever . MR .

BICKEY: lh o the r vords cllere is oo connection be~een the 200.000 shares of Jubilee I -ron and the Doyle House. . MB..SMAU.WOOD: None at all. MR.Hl<:JCEY: Tbanlf- you very ll!uch. Mit. SMALL\oi'OOD: Now, Mr. Chainn.an so that the mat:~r will be put. corr e c tly on the re4!ord let me s ay thac: Mr. ooy l e offered to contribute a building wni cb t.be University was kind enough t o name afur him as Doyle House, just as Inrd R.othmere had kindl y offered ~ cont't"ibute a building which was named after him . And Sir Eric Bowater had offered t.o c.ontr:ibute a building and it: wtaS named after him. The.

Newfoundl and Govern~~~ent built a number of residences and at public expense. Neither of these was named Rothtnere, Bowater. or Doyle The bui •lcHngs that the Goverttment bui lt were o..ama.d afte r famous e<fucators. But there are tbt:ee buildings O'.~t' there conu-1 buted pernonally as private eharit1es by Lord Rotbmere , Sir J;ric Bovater aod John C. Doyle. Ihey provided ~. uilditlgs. not c aah,., b\ltidings and cbey paid the contractors to erect ~zor; !. , . .

...... JUoe 1 1970 Tape 1049 page 8. tboa~ buildings ~itb a turnkey contract and thia is what Doyle did with Lundrigan. He. said, 1 am giving a building to the Universit}• go ahee.d and bui ld it. Now. Loodrlgan built t t at his owo expense. And finally got paid by Mr. Doyle, or Hr. Doyle 1s companies. The Government did not appeu in the picture at all. The Government merely took possession of the building ¥hen it: vas fi.nianed, because the Government own all the. buildings ove.r there. The Covemment ow-o the land. the GoveTnment own all the buildi~gs . The as Government ~wn all that is in the buildings.

The piece of prope rty is/mucb the propeTty of the government q this building is 1 or any Qthe~ building that the Government owns. And so it was with Doyle Rouse.. The Government had nothtng to do with building i~. txcept ~e had to appcove the design bec~ase )"<lu nannot have anyone that: is contribut.t.ng a building decide Dl\ how he wUl b~ve it look, the appearaAce of it. the design of it.

The deslgn has to eonfonn to the general ove.ra.lJ plan o{ the Universit~ . 'Ihat 1s tbe say that ..-e had to J;ee that ic: was designed and built to c.ertain sta:nda-z:ils and then when built it was ut we took possetu~ion of it and we now own it but it never c.ost the Government one et:nt and it has nothing to do with Jubilee shares no~ any other shat'es. The hon. gentleman .is just complete.ly confused i.n his mind, aboat tbe eharea.

He is jus t confused. lie mAght as well say that those shares had anything t o do with tbe coat of thia building thaL we a'('e 1~ he re now , or t.he te.cbnica4 college do~ beTe or the University i taelf. !he shares bave nothing whatsoever to do with it. Nothing . !m.Bl.~: Mr. Chairman~ just: before we pass I wuuld not want to leave any vrong impression or I have no desire 1 Might add to cast a reflection on Mr. Doyk or the Covenunent , in this c:onoection .

I might. tell the bon. the Premier that 1 am not: eonfuaed, personally 1 am qllit.e. wall aware of the i nformation that I have and i.t :is quite clea r to me, and it. 14 quite alarmin~ to me.. I wil l say Sir, that J; have.. never 1114de charges against any person outside or inside of thts House without ba~klng the~ up and I will be glad and happy to check l1l'f aou~ce of .inforroattcm and my facts and :i.f I cannot come back and substantiate tilem 1 vil.l be more than happy tD vithdrav them and correct the situation . !l50G

June 1 1970 Tape 1049 pege 9. MR. WELLS: The 111Jltter of the residences the Premier just: mentioned it. tell the House the pTopeTty thac the University has, the land and the buildings. do~ title to it rest with the Covern!M!nt or iB it ill fact in the Unlveuity as a corporation 1 KR. SMALLWOOD: In t'he GoveTUment. Crolom. Mlt.VEU.S~ Mr .qhaiman. 623 -02-01 , would the minister. c.hia has been the ..ount .as I reca11 for several years, approximately tbe amount.

Is this t o cbange. if and vben tbe 111edical school does proceed and relieves the burden and delll&ld of thi$ Province on the medical school facUittes of the Provincit o£ No"a Scotia. Will this a1110unt change~ Or is it anyway related to thi3? this 111etter pertains to Education of our ~dical and dental •tudents and I woul d ask. my colleague the mini&ter of Be.alth if he wot1l.d &ive. the detaiLs on it. MR.ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman. ttuat vota abQVs $660 ,000 represent~ a sli.ght increase fro111 last year.

Altho1,1gb we at'e. now ne&aHating with Dalhousie along the lues suuuted or just suggested by ffiY friend in bis question . The number of .adical atudei~t:.e at Da1bousie Sir, has not decreased and indeed 01e have no 1o.clic:.atioa of tbis stage that they propose t o acc:.ept less than the usual oUIIIber ~xt yur. Now this has Always been vague ~r. ChairMan. Nowhere is it laid down that :Ln return fo-e t bi.a grant we get so 111B.UY plac ed each year fo r aedie1De or ao ~placed each -year of denistry . lt just happens that: way.

MR.YELLlr: ls there any foClllula for ea~culation - Kll.!1llB£RTS: No. there is not Mr . Chairman. the three other Atl.anrlc Provi.Gees each contribut-e to Da1bous1e there ia a foonula in that sense. We average betvean tvdve and fi fteen in medicine each year. depending on the oW!Iber who apply and the general qualifications. We do get a certdn percentage but 1.t is not ttpec.iUcal.ly fixed. faculty of dentistry This also of course covers students on the '5507

Jun·e l, 1970 Tape 81050 Pag~ 1 .Jlf liON. £.H. ROB£RTS (Minister of Realtb}t My officials now Mr. Chairman, are negotiating wlth the Dean of Medicine at Dalhousi~, DT. Stuart , to determtne the possible student in-take over the next few years. There are b&&ica1ly two questions have to be decided. The ~ first is this; how many -students are t her e i n N~wfoundland <tUaHfted to SQ tnto medicine. and i how many of them will want to go tnt And yo11 can guess those running from thirt y a year to a hundred and fifty a year .

Nobody seems very sure. !r see~s for nexc yeaT that both Memorial, which will have a first year class of about thirty-t~o, and Dalhousie, as far as we can find oUt, taking between t.n ~d fifteen Newfoundlanders. So apparentl y we have not Teached the level of the ~ool yet . MR. CLYDE HELLS: Th~s eorrent year bas a first year class at Memorial ! MR. ROBERTS: Yes, yes, just firs t ye~~ only . They are going to incyease that next - t:b~re are. now I think. -seventeen, there will be tlo7enty -t:wo next year 1n eecortd year, cmd there ~111 be thirty-two 11\ the first year. They have accepted.

Mil. l~ELl.S: Was t here any drop in the number of Newfoundland studen t s dt Dalhousie medical school after last September's results at Memor ial? H.R. ROBERTS: l cannot answer that precisely Mr. Chairman. I will have the infonnation \!ben my own Est imates come up , but basically I do not think there was. MR, WELLS: If I may ad.d this. 111aybe he c.m 111\s...,er the same time? Last year~s Est~tes pyovided for*544,000 was the Estimate, the revised from the yes r before was#sss,ooo.

The estimated for last yeaT was1 s44,000 ~ Now on the assumption that Hemorial "'''uld ca use a decrease 1n the fir:;t year of ~nedical students at Dalhousie vhich is a fai. r assumpticm to malce ., ooo tn ciTC\.I!IIStances . ~-thy is the revised up to 66Q this ye.ar'Z MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman . the actual wasf5S5,000~ The revised at one Ct4lge (this 'is the old problem with revised figures and v e have. been .through tt in Cowmittee before). The reason the coat is ~one up is this : Well it !l5GH

is 660 just so we are clear on it. At one stage Dalhousie asked for tha c 1 and we negotiated it baek tJlsss.ooo figure "nth them. HR. WELLS: You had estimated last yea~544,0007 MR. ROBERTS1 Ana45s5,000 is a hundred and two percent ofUS44,000. W~ negotiated it back ~o $555,900, wb1ch is the amount that ve actually ~aid tbem this last year under chi * Read. Dalhousie said tn effect Mr.

Chairman. th.at if 'l.fe did not have a medical. school, if 1.>e wanted t:o continue the •~ propoTt1on of ~tudents at Dalhousie as ~e have had for years, 'lofe would have to pay them several millions a year , because their costs have gone up. They have just opened a !'ew building, the Sir Charles Tupper Building , and their costs are ~one up the same as everybody's are. MR. WELLS~ When t ~e minist er says severai millioas, can be speeif1~ MR. ROSERTS: Oh in the order of two to three . 1 do not know the precise figures. But the point is Mr.

Chairman, we are negotiating ~11th DalhouSie to see if we c3n reduce that grant in yeaYs to come. We are not s~~ how many Newfoundlanders will need to go Dalhousie and t think I c:an under-line that, We can use in Newfou"dland all the docto rs Memorial vill turn out and all the dac~ors that Dalhousie would turn ont for us foT years to come. We are still only half the national average. We ate negot iating with them~ what will come of it! do not know.

But I do believe that, for many years yet to come, there will be a great number of Newfoundlanders at Dalhousie ~n medicine. and of course the dental aspect will eon tinue at balhousie . There are no plans even in the fo~tive stage to bujld a dental school at Memorial. MR. MURPHYt The bon. minister said tw~lve to fifteen, that vould include dental Rtudents would it? MR. toBERTS = 1 think so, yes. lt t s twelve tQ fifteen in any ~iven year. ~ think this yeart and from memory Mr. Chairman, because 1 do not have my :'~ate r-ial here from ay~own Esti111ates _ 1 think we have dghty-four students r:;5on

. ~ .. . - rqe J at Ualhou.sic . There vere seve"n~een vho gTaduated tltis year under our pr~g~am. Eighty-four at Dalhousie including Interns and residents, not residenta I Rm sorry. interns in tbe fif~h yeaT, 4s pare of our ~rogrnm. }1T{. tlELL5: Twelve to fifteen is misleading , That ts tvelve to f ifteen new ones in this current year. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, there are twelve to fifteen going i~ each year. MR. CHAIRMAN: Ot Carrted. 02 Carried. Ol MR . ~RPHY ! What vould they be -Miscellaneous Associations? M'R. P.O\VE: Yes, 1 }\ave this he't'e Mr. Chaitman, 1 would be glad to get that.

This is for th e roost p~rt, small grants that Qe make to various organizations. We make a ~rant of $5,200 to the Canadian Education Association, that !s the great Association of Canada , the National body that everything in edu ea tion is part of , Ancl ue. give five hundred and forty dollars to the ~orld Univ~rsity Student Council. Three hundr ed dollars t o tbe Canadian Library Asso ciation. The Hariti~e Art AssociAtion, $218. I clo not kno~ how that $218 is mar ked out, prob3bly on a per capita to each province. l should say Mr. Chairman , that most of these national organizations vhat happeda is that the.

Provinces are you might say assessed - Outario X dollars, and then British Col umbia probably a half of Ontario and so on down tbe li.ne. The Board of Director& at Un1vers1ty,Administration $1,000, the Council Administrative Education $6,700, that uould be an ~ssessmen c . a prorated assessment ~ and the Atlantic Region Study Cent er, $8,000. And tbe Canadian Council on Research Educa~ion Sl ,ZOO. That covers the group. These are bodies that every province would subscribe a certain amount to. 03 Car~ied. 04 Carried . 05 MR. }1URPB'I ~ On 05 Mr. Chat nnan. There is quite an inc "tease in this ~rant.

I know there are plans for this, but I would like to take the opportunit1 whilst on rnv feet: to pay tt't.bute to Mrs. J>erlin for this , and congratulate her on her Qell-deserved honour bestowed by Memorial Unive~sity last veek. Now ! am happy to see that we have been assisting this association for retarded children , and 1.t .seems we have re.acbed ncr~~ almost a def1rd.te stage, 1)510

June l. !~ 70 P"age 4, wh~re we will ~rhaps take over almost the operation I understand. So possibly it might give the minister just a chance to explain what stage they have reached? MR . ROWE~ I would be glad to Mr. Chairman, because I fel( all along, I : &aid so publ!cly, that this was a decision by the Government and I know it is going to have the full concurrence of this Rouse. This is another · milestone 1n Newfoundland education, It is a decision by the G overnment to t•ke over full r espo nsibility for the education of retarded chil dren to Newfoundland . Tbis is ~at it was.

But tn the first year, and this vas worked out now in consultation with the Association, Mrs. Per lin and her aasociat~ 1n the first year of opera~!on - ~e are continuing our grant to them of some $40 ,000 or r oughly. and we are paying the salarie~ of &11 their teachers for the f 1Tst year. And in that year then. all the det ailp will be wOTked oue for the full transfer, and starting Septembe~ '71 . we t.!:ill take on the full res ponsibili ty • but that Assoc.1ation will can:y on ita work but ln a different way. Its work will consist of edueation in part of the public.

It will be a voluntaTY association bel~ing the vork of the Government in this field in the same way perhapa as the Canadian Red Cross assist ~he Department of 1Iealth, and the Newfoundland T.! . Association assist the Department of Realth, and so on and so on. But this 1s a :mil estone in this fil'st year, tbe increase then bu:ludes the ~4laries of all th~r teach ers. ~e are taking tbat burden right 9ff the211, But ri~t now they are eonduc:tin~ a campaign and Mrs.

Perlin only tnade. a stat etnent there l ast week. on it , and I vould like to retnfoTce be.r statement t That the need for public support of this association still continues, and they are careying_ ou a veT') valuable work and it is most. important tbat the publ ic eontinue to support them, because they are going t o bomch out and do th ings now t hat werP never l)Ossible before . Mr\. EARLE: I am very glad Mr. Chairman, to see thi& t r ant increased. It ~51~.

June l, 1970 Tape ,10.50 Pa~e 5 certainly is one of the most desirable ones in our Estimates, and I am just wondering. I ask this mainly £~om ~e~ienee 1 have had from tTavelling around my own district. Where does che responsibility lie for discovering these cases? 1 bave ~ome across many cases on the South C()ast, where. there are retarded cllildrcn in the homes, some severely and some not so severely. And the parents seem to be tmaware that there is any as sistance. ean be rendered for t.hem.

J: have brought a number of thee to the attention of the Department nf Health from time to time , and now that the Department of Education is gettlng vety heavily involved in chis, is it being 1eft t o the Aasociacton. to the ne~ar~ent of Realthr OT ~ill the Department of Rducat!on s~t up some pTogram, or how will it be carried? MR. P.OHE: 'ir.

Chairman, on that, very c:onsidenble work h~s been going on because of course as my hon. fTiend has indicated, one of the great problems is to identify the ca~es . and in ~8n~ cases a child can go on, a child ean go on for some years and not be properly ident~fied in that way. Dr. Neville S1n1th, I believe she is att ached to the Department o£ Health.

She. has been carrying on ve~ extensive work in co-operation with the .school bQards, who themselves are 1n a positi .oa. to do - he re again, because the school boards are able co engage spectalists, and because they are able to engage, among other things,for example, in guidance and testing, specialists~ A .numbe r of the school boat-d.s have engaged men ~71th mastet's degrees in test t ng 1 and these 9eople are able to administer the Binet rest, th1!. famous Rinet test used all over the 1.1orld fol" ide.ntifyin~ me.ntal condit i ons of one kind or another.

Bec~use. of all that we are ao~ in the process of getting an inventory, and we have on band now an inventorv of t he handicapped ch~ldren in tbi.s regard . Not only child r en handicapped by mental retardation. but handicapped in other ways as well, Mtd this t.'O'f:k will of course conc:luue.. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, nn that- there ls a vote here of $20,000 ~51~

. - ·-r- .rw for handicapped chlld~en, and then there is a vote of $103,000 for rataf'ded c:hildTen.. 1 cet't ainJy agree with the minister that it ts t-tme the CoveTnment assumed respo nsibility for the teaebing of the retarded children in the provtnee.

They are woefully unde~s~affed and under- equipped to take care of the ~nfo~tunate children . l think there are two things we should bear in mind, that you have two classifications: the retarded child and the slow learner. the ~etarded child as 1 understand it 1 is a child for whom very little can be done in the way of the education pTocess. 5ut they can be taught cettain skills and can be made to feel a part of the coli'Gllunity.

The alow !earner falls into a completel :y different categ.ory. and 1 think to the great regret of many school boards in Newfouna- land, that last yeaT and this year. sufficient ~basis ~s not being placed on the slov-lean1er program. And indeed that pr-ogram had to be cut back and reduced somevbat, and it would be wrong or moat unfortunate if people ~eTe left with the impression, that this $103,000 will be of any assistAnce tn the slow-learner's program. It will not b~ . It is simply to look after retarded children.

Ho~ f acil i ties sti1l will have t o be provided an~ 1 conc.ur with the minister 1 s statement that the general public again should be made fully aware that this campaign for financial assistance c.bat is now being start~d by the Retarded Child ren's Society should contjnue to get the s~ s upport, because tbere is ofteu a tendency ~hen ~~vernment .ave:a io to qualified and charltable fiel ds , that tbe public. will say~ " vell 1t i8 not necessary for us _to contribute any longer." This is certa.1 nl v 110t the case in the Retarded Children program.

More s~hool buildtngs are aeeded right nov for the teaching of retarded children. nut the slow - learaer program Mr. ChaiTman, 1 believe sho uld almost. be on the to~ of the prl.orlty ltst. in the field of educatio'll at this t ime. Because up unti t a eouple of yeara ago. or th~ee or four years ago, the slow learner struggled throu&h to probably Grnde Vl l or Grade Vlll, repeating grade after grade, ~513 • I y '

rape 11J.U!IU Page I ~d w~en the pupil rea~hed school leaving ane, they left school and became a dr•w on the lsbout ~rket. because it was tha philosophy at that ti~e or the belie£1 or maybe it was laek of funds that nothing could be done for these children. Such is not the case. If these schools could affo1:d and funds can be made ava1lable through school board!; to implement. a sl~-learner program with proper inst ruction , and it is expensive because ~e pupil-teacher ratio should not be in excess of ~enty . And it takes up a school building and a school room. ~r.

Ch~irman, we hav e been woefully lacking in the implementation of the slow-learner program in the Province, SQd today it is still caly found 1n some of our larger scbools, and these echool s, these school boards had to cut back on the~r p~ogram. They had just gotten the thinp; started, and they started to see the results of the implementation of a slow-learner program. They sav the students who ver~ saved from becoRdng dropouts, ~t least getting school leavinr, certificates and qualifY!ng•for entrance for some of the vocational schools around the Island.

And my concern is that whilst this grant is a most commendable one, and very littl~;could be lncreased substantially over what it is. Rut this is only nit-picking at the rea l problem, and the real problem is two-fold. The problem of the r etarded chilu and the problem o£ the slow-1eamer.

And this is why [ repeat \olbat I said in this House ou several oceasions this year, that the gap is ~idening betueen the more affluent areas of this Province and other areas i n certain fields of education , and in the field of the retarded child and in the field of the slow -lea rner, this is where that: ga!> is cont inuiog to widen. And it is ~ideninR because of cut-backs in grants to school boards for that type of program. lt h because. of the !lUP1l- teachet:" rat io-.r.hat is betn~ snfoTeed artificially on school boards 1 and in the final analysis the frovince is go~ns to pay for it anyway .

Because if we do not pay more ~51 t.\. I 7 . . .

.J Uf\1!: A • J. 1t I IJ Page o .rw 4ttention to these children who hbve not been blessed ~1th the same eapabil1tiee 3nd the talents of the avera~e . eh11d, they ~rr. going to be a d~g on the labour maTket, and eventually they are going to find themselves on the welfa~e road .

And l say that we are being penny-Wise and pound-foolish if ve continue to ignore the 4emand for the increase 1n the gT&nt!l to the slow - learner pTograms • anu 1t was a backward seep last year when the slav-learner program had to be ~ut back by school boar~s. or they had to make a choice bet~een certain specialties coming within their jurlsdiction.

And to tne 1mtlst , I am suTe that 1 echo the thought& of every member of this House that the Retard~d Children grant is long ove~ue. not enought more schools are necessary for that organization. and~1e not being ~ade available ~o all of the chi ldren who fall in that category in this Province. At the same time we should not lose sight' of the alow learners that ~ have. 1 saw a survey M~. Chairman, that was taken t'l.<o or three ye.ara ago in one par t of ~ewfoundland on the reading c~pabilit1e5 of Newfoundland ~hildren.

And I think the figure was twenty t:o twenty-five percent below the national average. 1 said . "what is all this re.adinF; program, what. is it all about ? You mean they cannot read or write.'' Of course tlley can read and write, but they cannot. co111prehend, because they have never had the specialist training and the sp~cialist teachers made available to give them the f~structions and the guidance in reading that i.s ne cessary . Two years ago I TJas at a High School not far frOTII thia Building . and the Principa1 ~as co;.,[J ~aining abouc the number of ~epe.atera in Cude lX, and l a~k.ed hi m why.

And he said, "beca use we spend so mueh time in the first six months when they come into Gr3de lX teacblng them how to read. how to comprehend 1 and t.his should have been cSooe in the Elementny ecboola, buc tt could not be done in the Elementar? echools because the funds were not .available." And all ~his t-fr. Chai rnan, I think, should come under the one head!n~ of Specialized Training; Special Attentio~ to slow-leamers and retarded childre.o to reading programs - !)515

June. \. l970 Tape h1050 t~ minlate~ h.s ment1caed him9elf the need for a much more mas&ive pro~ram, aftd -~setve ne l? in the field of reading specialista, but we do noc bave them in Newfoundland.

And v~ are not makinR too ~uch effort to get them. ~nd this cutting back in the ~~ants to special program•. t think only c~po~'ds a felony, and makes lt that much more difficult for our school boards in the P~ovince to save the children from becoming a drag on tbe market. labourl And they will be unless we find funds, pnd find the heart and tbe desire ~ willingness to bring back~ at least bring back the grants that we weTe getting and approving t o school boards fo r specialist training, and I chink encouraging.

The hon. the minister has referred to the emphasis that is n~·r betng placed on guidance counselling in sOI'IIe of the laTge:­ schools ifl Newfoundl~t\O. This is true ', and it is beginning to spread. This nast week 1 was 1n Burin ac tbe Pe~rce Amalgamated School. They coo nnw. are startin~ a guidance program in that PeaYce Amalgamated High School in Rutin . But ~en you talk co the teachers and you talk to the board, they have to make so~e very agonizing decisions .

Do ~e embark on this fteld of guidance counselling, do we uke a salary unit and put 1.t into BO{danee eoun~etllng 1 and then in the general classroom have the per puuil registration go up frott~ thirty-five to forty -five or to fifty 'J Do we ri51G

June lst., 1910 Tape no 1051 Page l. decide on implementing slaw learn~r programs. The boards. throughout Newfoundland today, are becoming aware of the fact thal programs can be implemenced io our schools to help slow learne rs throughout Newfoundland.

I, for one, resent tbat thi~ slow learner program has been confined to the more afflueat areas of Newfoundland, to the larger populated areas of this Provinee ., and 1 also fee.l tnat if ve •~e going to be ~esponsible in our approach to this Province that we should not place achool boards in a position vbere they have to decide vbethec there is going co be a phys. e.d. teacher or a gu.t.dance couna~l.lor or a slow l earner teacher or whether they are going to have to increase the pupil-teacher ratio in any particular classroom. What l am saying is aoe n~w.

I beard tl~ bou, minister espouse the same views himself publicly, and I would hope that he agrees vith me tl1at. it ia most regrettable that. the.se program$ cannot be implemented i.n every p.art of N'e~ouadland at this time. MR. ROWE (P.W.) : Hr. Cha1I'111an. it. 1s a pity that my boo. friend vas cot here on Friday, because these mat t *rs were discussed eatlier and atTi c tly &peakin&• I think, you are pr obably out o£ o~der ia going ~to ~ detail on them Wtder the preeent heading.

I eanuot ;.allow one or two of the impressi .,ns that he has giv~n . 1 understand his interest ancl. h1a sinced t y tn th.ismatt.er. buc a lot . t I ; . • . of his information is simply - ~ll his informat~on is inadequate, i nsuffic ient. He bas given the impression that we Qave cut back on the special Frograma ~n Nevfoundlanu and that ls not so . The face cf tne matter is tbat at tbia moment, tQere are fifty opportunity classes being conducted in the Province for precisely this kind of student that he has Just refer-red to - ~he almo learner.

And they are. be.ing under- because under our formula we allow - not one. t:e~<cher for every tvent:y but one for ~.very bteive sucb. chilc!ren and rlgnt at tbe 1•resenr. time, ln order r.o take advart.age of ~!: , t.hey must have a s~. ali;.cd teac.her. It is being doae ~517

June llit., 1?70 tape no 1051 Page 2 Ml". Rowe (P .W.) at th1B moment in forty diff~rent places across the·Pro vince. So. it is far fro~ beiug a cut back. There has been a tremendous expansio~ in that. HR. HICKHAN: Yitat ofbet' progra111S have we had to &lve Ufl then 'l MR. ROWE (F.W.): Well, tl1ey cio not have to gi1:e up any puticular pl'ogram . What I was going to su&gl:..st to my hon. friend. and I cann•;:~t do it now t hat some day, when he gets a- half hour free . come down to the Department of Educadon , and 1 ~111 at:raage a meeting witb Mr.

Andrews, the director of our division and with one or two of the deputy ministers and probably Mr. G~ant, the administrate~ and review the whole program in tbis matter, whieh is being done in Newfoundland , because ~t is wrong co give the impression that we have cut back in ouch a way that boards have had to do away with their program. All ve did l ast year - what we did ao WaS to take ~ay fTom certala boaTda. some of the teachers ~hat they were not en~~tled to unde r the lav and we did that, and ve were rlght in doing that .

We are actually expanding at this .moment , and nave been for the p•at two yeare, this whole prograM for opportunicy cLasses. 1t does not eo~ under this beading. there is a $200,000 capital grant enabling boards to put 1n special. c.lassrooJDS. The-re are other moni~s and o ther 8ranta for handicapped children an~ aere is another poiur ot int~re st to: The University 19 now planning, next year, to put in a p~o&T&~ whereby Masters' Uegrees can be given to teachers specializing 1o reading. in remedial reading and this ...,ill tie right in with our pTogram of providing t hese opportunity schools.

I do suggest to t he hoc. gentleman - I do sug ges t that he spen d half an hoVT do111t1 to the departlllent some day aud get Qp•to-date on the5e fact, , because be is actually out of date on s~e of t hese ~t ters. Mit. CBAI.RMA.N: Shal.1 0.5 ~arry'l Carrhd . Shal l 06 c:arry? Carried. ;. - t

June 1st. • 1910 Tape no l OSt Page 3 • MR. HICKMAN; Would tbe. m.inbter tell t he llouse what unde rtak ing ~e rece~ved f rom the Nova Scotia !ecb on account of this grant? MR. ROWE (F.~.) ~ There ~s a moral commitment -a general undertaking on the put of Nova Scotia Tech t.o traitl engineers or student& going there, ! do not kno•J. 1 <lin trying to remember. I did know this, whether or not. they take in a set number • but I do not. think they do. I think we gLve this bloc~ grant.

This is a block gxant of $25 .000. ~e giva it co them and they 1 in curn >train the Newfoundland eogine.ers who will apply there. and 1 am not aware that an,- Newfoundland engineers vho have qual!fied for entrance bave ever been refused adudsslon there. So. I thiak probably it: is just a general collllllitment to ~e in Newfoundlal'ld appU.cant.s. I do not think. there .i.s a quota. HR.

RIOOIAN: Is tbe program still in effec~ whereby Nova Scotia Tech~ would ttain certain Ne~foundland engineering students who wer~ ind~tured to t he Min.ister of Highlolays? fl · ROWE (F .W. ): In addition to those who ve~e iDdentured to the .Mini*r of Highways , general engineering scade.nts 1 of course, have been a~ita8 there to. lCR. HI C.KMA.t'f-:- Is that progTam still ln fOTce ~~tb •• ~ _MR. ROWE (F.W.): It: seems to IDA -:- it: seems to tAe that that is curtailed nov. The ~n1at~r of Kighways is not nere , butt have a feeling • • HR. MURPHY : !!he former tU.nistu of tiighways? MR.. "ROW£ (F .W. }: 1 am sorry.

I beg you.r pardon. l'erhaps the Minist e r of RS..gnyays could tell us that:. Is tb.is indenturing . of engineers to the department? Is thi s still in force? MR . STARKES: Yes. HR. ROWE (F .. ~): Yes. tbese were ones who were omitted in previous years, I ta'k.e. lt. I do not. thin k any new ones are ~eing taken on at tlie preset\t t~. ~519

June. let., 1970 Tape no 1051 Pag e 4 MR. STARKES: Not that I know of. MR. ROW~ (F.W,): That is my unders~ding that n~ new o~es are being taken on at the present t1nte. nut there was no tie-to between that and this $25 ,000. This is a $25,000 standaxd vote~ we have been making to the Nova Scotia Tech over the years in return for their general agreement tu take in Newfoundland $ngineerin& students and train them. MR. HIO<MAN: You kuov it b gor>d value for the money. hey? No it does not pay tnei~ tuition fee.

Could the minister give the House some indication as to when the first engineerin g graduates from Memorial University will come on tbe ~ket? When do you expec t ? MR. ROWE (F.W.): I do not know. 1 do know that they have omitted some there, but when they will actually come out, I 4o not know • But I would presume ~t would be ~oon in the nacural, normal course of events , if they are already in there now io ~he engineering schooL They should not be ll.mOre than three or; foar yeacs anyway . at the most. W~ are talkipg abov~ ~hen the Uoive~sity .. AN RON. MEMBER: Inaudible. _MR.

SMALLWOOD: We are not tha~ anxious to close the House. Does be doubt Within the D.e.Xt month, that it will be finl.slled witl\in a montll'l MR. maERIS: They are get t1ng awtious. ~iR. BO\oiE (F. W.) t I would assume. I do not want to answer for the University. I would assume that 1~ would take about three year~. They ~ve admitted students to the engineering course, and I would assume that it would take another three years, before they at'e g~aduate4 , That h tlle normal t•ain.i.ng. A person gets a a. s~. • and gDes to engineering acbool. usually, has to spend three years , I thick . MR. H[CK..'!AN: No, two years.

HR. R~WE (r.W.J: Well , tvo years.

JUNE 1ST, 1970 Page S MR. HICKHAN: You lcnov 0 iL is si~ply fat" inforsation. My lnl,ders t andins iJ that a full fa~ulty of engineering has now been established at Memorial, and you have presumably two groups of engineeriug students. You t b&ve ~oae wbo graduaced this year ~ith degrees in B.Sc. enginee ring. That is one group who will presumably go on to Nova Scotia • . The majori~y of students at ~~ot ial, 1 suggest , are doing a pit more thao simply &ettiog the:ir MR. ROBERTS~ There are two engineering programs. One is being phased out.rbe tech one is Peing phased out.

The one with an Angus Bruno ot which he ts Dean is going ahead, as the minister h.as just said . ! think. they are about to go ioco third yeat: nov. So another two or thre.e years 1110re, and they will be gett l ng their degrees from }~morialt whether it is R.N. ' s or B. A.Se. l do not know what the degree will b~. MR. HICKMAN: For iQStance: McGill uses a a.sc. in engineering wh i~ is the final degree. MIL ROBERTS: Yes, Toronto gi~es a.!.A.Se. tbat is in applie ~ science. Some of the engineeri~g school~ require a B.Sc,, pre- engineering as a pre-re quisite to admiesion. What happens at M~rial K&.

ROBERtS: Never heard o£ it. That is l ike say ing, you have to have a B. A. to get into war . It 1s useful but not necesaary. MR. lli CKMAN: Oh~ yes it is . MR. ROBERTS! rue best law school in Canada ••. HR. WELLS: The best law school in Canada is Dalhousie and they .n.ll 110t let yo11 in now~. MR. ROBERTS~ Dalklousie is not the biggest .la<r !Jchoo1 in Canada •. MR. ROWE (F.W.) : Order, ~. Chairman, Order. MR. HICKMAN: Mx. Cl~roao , tne simple fact is that the Wester~ • . MR. ROfEKIS: We 5hould not leave it up. to the bar to • • ~ ut anyway , i.f we can se·; bac~ to 4Ul&ineering. Many of the ~52; r I

June lst. • 1.970 "lap~ no 1051 graduates, the anudents ac: Memor!.al, ~part from ge'tting their engineering diploma, they tak~ • B.Sc., a~ the sa•e time. 1 thin~ ~t ta~s them an extra year, But you ~ill notice • • HR. ROBERTS~ Well that could be , yea. MR. HICKMAN: These are students. ae I understand it, who will, this year, be going on to Nova Sco t ia Tech. oT McGill or Toronto in orcle~ ~ to get the1~ en&ineering d~gree .

Am ~ to understand that those who will be going into tPiro year engineering at Memorial the next adademie year will be able to CDn.tinue on at MelDO't"ia:l for years four af, five. and will. event1,1ally col!le out of that inaticutioo now With •• MB. ROBERTS: They have finished one class "that ' .has COI!Ipl.etd two ye.a1rs. They are oo the co-operative program which is •• MR. ROWE (F.\J,); Mr. Chail'11\S.t\, ! am forced to rise to a point of order ben~.

Tbis is very interesti ng and all of that. but ac~ally . 1 do not think it very has any beariQg on this vo~e to Nova Scoti~ tech fo~ the~imple ~easou ~t apart from anything elee~ ~at we do not set the atandarG& and regulations of the engineering achool at Memorial . I would be glad to get this informadoQ. t do not have it at hand here, but I wil~ be glad to get ~t. I am sure tbat tbe y will giv~ it to me as a eourteay. We cannot even demand it. MR. HIOO!AH: Mr. Chairman. ! am not c:.oncerned about tbe standards.

I j usc vaat.ed to knov aOlll.e informarion about when t he first: graduates will come out: of Met110ri Ill. as enaineers. MR. JOW£ (~. W.) : A!J 1 have said, we do t\Ot haYe that i.nfo~tion. 1 won ~ d be pad to u:y to get it . 1 would aesWDe th;~t io view of tbe fact chat they do have students in the engineering achool. the first graduates shoAld be comins out within the next two yean. t would think that. MR. EARLE: I think, Mr.

Chairman, lt was a very appropriate discussiou. actually . undcu: this vo~e. be-::ause 1 have had rersonal experience 1.n this . 1 have had tvo of my family go through and it is a pre tty expensive thing from the parents' standpoint for these. bays to nave to go away. COnsequently , I t.ltlnk it !a of great interest to t he Rouse. It certainly will be to t\le general public: to know how sooo the Memorial Univefsity c.an take ove·r the f) 52 ~~

June lst., 1970 Tape no 1051 Page 7 Hr, Ea~le. f~l rQ•poasibility of turning out engi~ers . io various fields. ATe we going to have to cont:inue wit.h this Nova Sa~t:ia Technical College grant for many more :years or- is tbe l,lniversit)', hexe , going to be able to take up all of tc. r . MR. ROWE (F .Jl . ): I would think. , HR. SMALLWOOD: A college of engineering here a~ our own University and subsidize. a college of engineering anywhere else, of cot,frse, not. MIL MUR.eHY: The o';lnswer is sort oL. MR. SMALLWOOD: Of course. Ja liON. MEHBER: Medical s~hool.. Hll. SMALLWOOD: Same thing.

If we get a medical college , we certainly will n~ -.~bsidhe any ot her medical college, We would nave all: ~o~e could .~·- .. .. "· do to subsi.diz.e our own. MR. ROBERTS: We may need more doctors. MR. WELLS: The minister t old us d1ffe~ntly thi~ morning . MR. HDBERTS: The minister aa:l,d that ..,e were nego t iac:ing and tllar: ve may very well end up with both. We lrlgllt - not. willing. but we llli.ght. MR. HICKMAN: If you do not wor k out an agr~ementJ New Brunswick will till all the vacant desks, too, ie tbat nor: a fact? __ HR. ROBERTS! New Brunswi cK would be coming here . ~· CHAIR~: Shall 07 carry? MB..

EARLE: On 07 and 08, Mr. Chain.an: EskilllO and Indian Educar:ion ~ I would think that we should take the two of these together. It is ratbu pQZzling to look at firsr: glance . On the Eskimo and Indian education, the~e is only $90 ,000 as against $168,000 last year. Now the capital gran t fo~ tb~ construction of, I take it , the n~ school at Northwest River is up to $550 ,000 this yea r. It was ~300 ,00 0 last year. l t strikes ~e a~ Tat~~r puz~ling aa to how an operational grant can be reduced to $l68,00Q down to $90 , 000 , if chere is a new school to be builf.

Possibly, ln the euCTent yeat , tber~wil l be taki~g in more students , ~re Es~i~os into toe 552 ~

lkl.lle lat. , 'tape., DO 1051 Mr. Earle. schools. ·Now, n: 'llligflt. well be. a~gued. I suppoE;Je~ r.:hat the ofhetdtlg .factor in tbe. CO'lltrib.,tionll fro~ Ottawa might take cue of tha't . But, 1 notice that that is al&o reduced. So, what is i t generally? MR• ROWE (F. W.) : This s.itnpiy m.t:tans that our efforts of previous years have now reached the point where in the opinion of the. officers concerned, we do not need to vote more than $90,000 this year fo r it. Of cou r se, there would be a corresponding re.d\!cCion in the Fe<le-ra.l and ~ling.

This work bas been going on~last year, I think, it was ~168,000. bttt. these schools a r e. getting pre·tty well equipped and, of cow:se, tbe~e .18 no · gteat increase. There bas been no great increase in t he number of I ndian and Eskimo children frOlll one year to .another. Thei, r pqpulation is relative l y atati~ - the inc'l"ease lof'Ould be purely inc:-rem.ental, shall ve say. This is. tbe amount of 1110ney that: is felt that would be needed sGhools. Of course, the. $550,000 •• MR. EA!U.E: l ~usagi-ne -we will s~e Supplementary Sup1J1Y. MR., ROWE CF.W.)! I doubt it.. No, this is not 211 arbitrary figure.

Tbi.s ia ttte advice oC the people and • • MR. B.OBERl'S; T:his is a Fedet:al/Ptovincial joint: coam:!uee invobf.1a3' about ~ dozen departments. HR. ROWE (F. WJ: Yea. Ibis is thair feelinsand. of course, the $~SO,OOO wb.t::ch, as my hon. friends says. you should really conside-c to&ecbec. that is for the school .at Northwest River .

The $550,000. · lt would appear to be a cocal of ~850,000 n» whieh we recover f~om Ot tawa this year ~137,500 and 1 think i t was $60._000 las~ year, which 1$ approxima tely $2Q0,000 t.ovatds an $850,000 expenditure , This is 41 pr etty heavy expenditure for the Provine&• if th~t is correctl 1 notice the tbe bon. Minister of Social Serv1,.c:es and Raha~Ul,t.atioa rl52~~

JuC\e lac . 1 1970 Tape. no 1051 Page 9 Mr. Harle. ebaklng his nead. I notice under thi& vote, there is also $300,000 for a dormicory , So. if you add the whole thing together, it 1s up close to $1.2 m1U1on , This ·seems to Ting a bell with 11160 because I remember looking at these figures some years a&o on the e&ti~ates that were prevnlent at that time . Thi$ whole organization oT vhole contract was going to cost about $1.2 million, Nobody will frown at that. It is an e~cellent •ervice do~ the re and it is IIOSt essential for ~e Eskimo children on the coast.

It might be of lntereat to the House. 1 think it ~ould be 1 for spending ~1.2 million and I am sure the Greafe.ll Association is adding very considerable amounts to that out of their own ftmde. MR. ROBERtS~ Peanut&! MR. EARLE: Well how many children ue being look.ed aft.er7 MR. ROWE (P.ll . ); I do not have the figure here, Mr. Chatman. 1 will be glad to get the figures. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 07 carry7 Carried. Shall 08 carry? Carried. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman. before ve go on ~a Block E~ there was an item, 1 think, it 1a 621-0~.

What was it7 621-09-05 whe~a the bon memeber for HUIIIher West - 1 a sony, the bon. membe.r Ior B~er East raised a question that we undertook co get some informatio n for tba committee and if the committee wish ~t. perhaps, we would revert to that and thus clean up Block D before going on to Bloek E. The Auditor General's comment which was the starting point taken by the member for Humber East, Sir, llas not on p•ge twenty-one. It was on ~age twenty-six.

It says that paragraph (60) of the AUditor Genel'al 1 a Report for 1967-1968 referred to a balance of $157.696, under negotiation and subject co ~recovery by vocational achool~' Western Building Corporation Limited. Recovery has not been 11ade, and I bave asked the corporation to consider obtaining an opinion fro• the Department of Justice OD (a) • vhethe~ the right to recovery may beeome prescribed and (b), ii pree~~1ption !sa po$Sibility, wbat step~ may ~52r.

JWle lst., 1970 Page lO 'rape oo 1051 HR. ROBERIS be taken to interrupt it7 It is on pag~ twenty-eix of the printed U)}ort which was mada avAilAble to the public. Mr. Chairman, the answer to t:hat is that the Auditor General wrote on the 12th , January to the corporation and on 13th. January the eorporat~on referTed it to the Department of Justice for a ~eg~l opinion and that opinion llas since be.en received . Basically~ the opinion is that. the Government. - tbe steps that are being taken by the corporation, which is a Cro~~ corporation , are sufficient to protect !he Government.

That is the opinion that we have been given b-y our l•w office~s and ~ccord1ngly the ~atter stands. Basically, just to put 1t in full r~spective, we are negotiating with the party concerned, who are Lwclrigana Ltd •• the contrac:tors who built: the buildings, did the work in quest~on. We clai~ that ~hey owe ·us aome money, and they c.lallll tbat they do not owe us that money • so we are ne&<>tiating. ~ut ve have been told by our law officers that the legal pos~tion of the Government o~ the corporation is not bar r •d by the Statut~ limitations. MR..

WELLS: ls i t a. company incorporated wder our Companies Act or incorporated by $pecial Stat~te? MR. ROBERTS.: 1 Tead from the opinion of the law officer concerned . I am rwt eonstantly agreeing Vith t:his. 1 a10 reading the opinion: "The Statute ot liui.tations does not apply to the Crown. (We all agree vit~ that).

However, ~ere we ~redealing with a corporation, fully owned GDd controlled by the Crowu, and it seems to me that what h~s to be done is another approach on netotiations and the suggestion by the law officer concerned, haa been carried .out: by the offiei,als of the corporation - a furtbeT approach baa been made. 1 abQulc add, as well, for the benefit of the learned 10embers, Mr. Chal.rman, that there have been documents in wri ting, which in the opinion of our law offic.etS are also c:.onside~ed M~c:lmowledgeab.J,.e. J:he document eooGeroed ie dated October lOth. 1967.

In tha wo~ds of the legal officer c:.oncern~. ic may be suffic:,ent to take the matter out of ~he operation of the f~X.t aect i oo of the Statute - the flcst

section is the aix year ro~e ~ ~52(1

Tapa no 1051 1'&88 11 so , Hr. Chairman. t.ha point b 1 for the benefit ol ~l!la ~mmittee, ve are assured by our 1•• officers that the appro~ria~e atepa are beinl taliten and the ela.im is dot be.ina allowed to lap&e tllrougb iDa.ctiou on the part of the corporation or any of i.t.a offic:era. MB. ~ HlCICMAN: The lllinititer will qree Fi527

June lsc. . 1970 , Tape lOS! Pl.- 1 MR. HICKMAN: It vould increase the bar~ainin~ power of tbe Crown. t feel reasonably certain, if a ~rit ~c~ issued . l'fR. RO'Bf.R!S: That is a matter of judgement, the hon. ~ent.lemao was l'linister of Justi~e for tt~o or ~hre~ years ... • MR. lllCKJ.!AN: l do not know what you are talking about, MR. ROBERTS: I cannot help it, if you never heard of it. lt was fn I last year 's Auditor Genera~'s Report. MR. ROWE, r. tJ. Mr. Chai 1':TIUU\, under 623-09 • there is no token vote in there, and again it 1s importan~ to have a token vote there .

I wonder if my colleague the Min1ater,wovld mov~ a vote of SlOO for 623-09-05? MR. CHAIRMAN: Carr ied. Shal l the motion earyY? Ca~ie.d . Shall 6 ~1-03-01 carry? Carried. 641-03-02 carry? Mil. EARL£: Just a question oa this, t-fr. Chainrtan, 02, this litt.le .amount which was i n last y-ear,comparatively small,$20,000, 1.. recall ~~as 41-S explained. as being the ~ecessary amount of capital ex~enditure for up- keep and repairs. MR . ROBERTS: We are on 642-02 are ~e nor? MR. MtlRPltY: 641-0J-02 . MR. ROBERTS: There is no vo te there. MR. EAlU.E: No, I know. That i6 why I am aslting t:h~ que.stiou.

It vas used in pTevioua years fur ordi nary up-ke ep and repairs omd so on. There cannot be an amount. but there is nothing at all this year, let them fall down. l"R. ROBERTS: Titat baa ncth1ng to do Yi th t he ? ulllie L1braTies ac't'oss the Province. That ~ould be our expenditure on a public library there, and there 1s no vote for it this year. But, the public. H.brary g;rants are earried under the 610 that we just passed, the $610,000, that is a block vote to the Publie Lib-raries Board. MR.

UJU.Ee : under that ~610 and the $588, they vere alvays disputing this as not been oaffic:ieot • just stock. the lib ~aries ~">1. th books and pay the s taff and all the usual card b~~~g expenses, this vas always a 552~ I ; -. .

Juno let . 1970 Tape 10.)2 ~nt. EARLE= a contentious matter. But the srnal.l amount of $20,000 was used just lor the up.. keep of tl\e little tQWT\ buildin~s and so on, What 1.!1 happening this ~eer , there is notn!ng ac all pro~ded here, and 1& 't 'ust going to be allowed to lapse, are you going to let these places deteriorat e? ~m. Rm,E, F.W. Now I thtnk tber~ was a decision ~ade to eliminate that, let everyph!og be in the one bloCk vote, $610JOOO. MR. CHAlPJ~: On motion 642-02 to 642-03 carried . Shall 652 carry! HR. WELLS: MT.

Chairman, would the minister tell the committee, ~1h at this is spent for, and why it is r.o~ being i nc reas e d from a rev~sed figure of $24,500 fo r last year, and tell the committee what is being •cbteve d, and what is ~be Government 's position on 1~? thinking on it 1n the tight of ~bat has happened recently with respect to a liquor supermarket in Prince Phi11~, l believe it 1s, and as we have seen in that bui1diog sales, special irems on sale , and so on, ehis amounr, Si r, is an inducement to buy liquor , and Temperance Education is suppose to be t~mperance, but: ninety-nine percent of the t'i.me it WtJrks out t.o toral absti~ence, th&e is what is being preach ed .

MR. ROWE1 F.W. No1 not at all. MR. MY.T:: F.W. I s what I have heal'd preached by any Temperance Organ1~at ion I every heard of. It is primarily total abst.inence . MR. UURPHY: Tb e moral is, "Neve r cake a drink and yau wll l never be a drunkard'' . MR. WELLS: '!es, how the two go together , we art payin~ $~5t 0 00 for-Temperance Education . t can see some value to it, j f was likely to do any real good, I would like to know to what gro up that soes, and how the Gove~ent justifies this in tbe light. of the opening of a ll({uor supenua r l<.et and Tunning specia1 sales on certain kinds of liquor? MR. ROWE, F.W.

Mr. Chairman, t\le answer is that thl.s ~rnr.aent and this llouse in years gone by decided thac we would support the work of: t::he Temperance Federation in Newfoundland, W~ are making a block grant, ~e do not ~ equire them to submit o budget to ua . ¥e do net require them to :}52!1

June lat. 1970 l'a~e 1052 MR. ROWE, F . t~ . give us details on hw to use that, and other IIIOllie~J'-' t bat they collect. We feal that this is a good otgan1zation, they are do1ng a val uable woek, tt h~a no mote to do ~1th prohibition. than it has to do with the buying and selling of coffee. MR. HU'RPHY: ~olould the Total Abstinence get• anything for thlt;? MR. IYELLS: l.Jould the minsite r comment on the Qther que.st1ons. MR.RlCKMAN: To whom is the g-rant payable? MR. WELLS: To w\1om is the grant pa1d? Newfoundland and MR. ROBERtS~ The/ Labrador fo'UDdation on Alc:.ohol1..and Drug Addict ion Incorporated . MR.

HlOOfAN: That is what I thought. ~!R. ROBERTS: The Rev, Hr. Iaeacs! gToup. MR. H1.ClQIAN: t~ow that foundation 1$ doing a lot of good work. HR. ROBERTS: ln some fields, yes. }IR,. »tcKMAN: Within a very limited budget. ~IRl ROBERTS: Iha~ is why we are ioe%~sing it . MR. HICK}~: But the inccease - ~IR. S~~LWOOD: No. that te not why ~e are increasing it. MR. ROBERTS: They are taki n g on an additional man. ~m.

SMALLI~OOD : The reason why we are increasing it is • tha~ a Roman Cathol:tc lo/{th pdest has! the pennission Qf hie bisnop, given U{) aeci\Te parish vork and has taken over the dire ction of the Federation in Central Newfoundland, with an office at Gander, and we are p~:oviding the cost of hls salary :\n _ offtc e . That. 1s what tbe extra is about. ~m . ROBERTS: So they are expanding the1~ services. MR. HICRMAN: But this does not, M:r. Chainnan, t suggest fO close to mee tin~ the pToblefll and the t"equest that the "Federation ic.self ot the r.::: . :..~ ~ · -=-- MR., ltC~IillTS: There are other - The HR.

HICIQf.AU: 5oundat1on 1s requesc1ng and that is llli!Ge of Goyenmenc .

June l.st. 1970 '!'ape 1052 Pll.- 4 MJt. ROllP.RTS: n,ey are nnt the only agency in h, :if the hon. member is thinktng of drug~ there. non-medical use of drug~ . cer t ainly ae the Miniater of Realtl\ t have no plans to involve this foWldation furt11er io work on non-tnedical use of d't'Ug.s at this t:1roe. They are not cb~ agency that ahould he used. MR .

HlCKNAN: Whether they are the agency to be used, and I think you will find a divergence of opinion oo tbat, as to whether or t10C they are the agency to be use d insofar as tl1e Drog Program 1.s eancerned, so far,accordins to their om1 public statement~, they nave not: been able to scratch t he sarf~ce ~nsofar as the problem of alcobol i~ concerned. AUd they relate the two, they say that the problem is very much similar. MR.. ROBERTS~ That is not necessarily correct:. Let us debate that on l1ealth , because this - MR.

HIC~·~N: No, no, Nr. ~1airman 1 1 submit that the vote that i~ under the heading of Temperanc~ Education is a vote to the Alcohol and Drug Addtetion Foundation of Newfoundland. And right no~ the money that. they have been receiving and ~11 ~ece!ve thia year is not enabling that foundation to deal with one of the very serious problems insofar as alooho l 1s concerned, because of TeBtriction in funds, they aYe using this mney pd.martly for the purpose of propaganda . They au esrabUshi.ng a very worthwhile program in some of the schools throu~hout ~evfoundland ~ tbe Allied Youth . MR.

ROBERTS: Very good. and it is in about fifteen schools. MR. HXC~~: It ~s good, aod it is done in conjunction with the cbuTches, tt ~abe a ,1.rut deal of selling. and I Sll€geet th.at for eveeyt1me. they wucceed , t hey have a fai~ure . KR. ROBERTS; About: 10 to 1. MR. Ut~urn: But those schools throughout Newfoundland ~~re they have 1-t eu~ceeded in establishing an Allied Yoath Pro gram,/is working, 1 believe very effectively , but helping i t s~lf .

MIL ROBERTS': :S\tt the trouble basically whether it is anal.ogous in labollt law to a sweetheart union, th~t is the truuble vi~h Allied Youth? a11alogoua to a ~Neetheart uni.on. 5531 t t I ,

June J_at. 1970 Tope. 10.52 PK- S MR. HICKMAN: Why do you S4Y that7 MR. ROB~TS: Because it 1s the establishment, and that is why it will not V~t'k on a non-medi cal uae of di'Ug8 . lt Vi.ll not work on an non-med:ieal use. of droga at all. It bea just: no c.ommunic:atlons. Mit. WELLS: Is Allied Youth treated as the est-ablishment:? MR, ROBERTS: In many eases, yes , it is a very good organhat1on, it invo lves kids , like Junior Red Cross, You knw, i.t is good, but it has limited uses. That t.s wny the failure rate - MR. fllCKMAN: Oh. no. ! do not think as establishme. at•. J-lr.

Chairman. r cannot agree with that, 1t just has a stigmn. What r have seen of ;:the Allied Youth Program, and JDAY be if this I makes me apart of the establishment , because I was instrumental, partly instrumental in eatablishlng a couple of them in schools , and I have attended so~e of their Erovinc1al Conference that they held during tbe same Eas~er vaearion, and it woul d be quite wrong to put i~ in the~cate~o~ ss the Junior Red Cross, as commendable as the Junio r Red Cross may be in its endeavours.

The simple fact is that you have among teenagers in schools where there is an Allied Youth Program, very heavy involvement , and 1 think that the approach that is used by Rliv. l ssacs and others vho are involved in the Allied touth Pt:op,t'am. is a very effective one. They do not uae the. approach that was used , when 1- was a J;loy gi'O\'tin~ up in Grand Bank, and we were all c0111pelled, whether we lik ed it or not to join the Sons of Temperance. ~e joined it principally. because ~e could get out on Thursday Night. ~IR. ROBERTS: The hot\. gentleman has had a lifelong committment to ~he cause.

KR. lUCKMAN: P~d the£e used to be a danee once a yeaT, and it was a great tiroa and I can remember a great controversy every year. because the only fellow who could play an aceo r dion. as the hon. ntetnher for Fogo vill pl'obably remember. was a gentleman who w~1 rather addicted to boose, he could nr~t p lay unless he had a dr~nk, and somehow we used to have to sneak 5532 ~ . 1

June he. 1970 Tape. 1052' PK - 6 MR . UICI.O!AN: him into the Temperance !tall, co ~et him co play foe the danee . Be that as it may, t he approaeh that .was used, now it mtght have been all right back aroune1 the t\lro of the century , but HR.. ROBERTS: 1 lc.naw the hon.. gentleman C7as t:Tue as a ~ici star, hut noc that true. t-ot.

HIC101AN: No 1 but as I say, it may have beeo good. when the Sons of Te mperance flourished 1n Newfoundland, I am told,around the turn of tbe century, and in Nova Scot:ia,today ~ we have! think . one left ac: Grand Bank, one 1n E~orth, and theTe is one 1n Halifax, But, then you have the T.A. Sotiery he~e,ftnn the aooroacb to it being used, Hr.

Chatrman, was that. vb a t Is a m!nker-mocke r , st('01lg dri,nk is xagi .ng, and if you eve r allO\Jed your lips to be touched by malt or spirituous liquors , you vere damne d - ~o etern:lty, forever and a day. there was no redemption. .A."ld it went undet: ..q,e name of tempe t:ance . But it was not temperance at all, it ~as total abstinence. ... . -.. . ...

And what happened was, that total . ~bstinence'~as· preached with such fe~ur by people,where the generat1on gap was forty years~ tha~ ~hen a young cha.p Teac:bed adult:hood, and allowed his lips t o be tarnished by malt or 'ilptr t.c:uoua. liqoor . he suddenly found out that he was not damne.d. an d he lost eonfidcnce in the people . and properly so. Me lost confidenc e in t he people~ who have been telling him this. This thing is not what they told me, it was ac all. And we nsed to be told that one drink, and you t o be c.ould get/ .an alcoholic. One. Now these people ~era genuine, they believed it.

They did not realize that~in the fo r ties~ young people ~ re chang1~g in their attitude, and they fell behind aod the result is that these associations h;we nr organiza t ions seem to/pretty well disappeared. But, Rev. Is sacs, th r ough his Allied Yo u ~h P~ogram, used wh.1t I think ls a fer more commendable approach~ He does not spend his time in the ochools tell~ng them, if you ever touch a drtnk , you er e out» you a~e finished, you are an outeast f r om socie t y, you are out of thia orga nizacion . ffilat be does do .

Ly means of very excellen t f.1lms And liteTature and leetures fcom doc t oTS, psychiatT1sts , and othe~s, he telLs them of what c.n h appen . Lf •

June be.. l970 tape 1052 Pit - 1 MR. RICK1~: and when there is an abuse of drugs or alcohol. And I believe. that. the s tu.denta vho are in this Allied Youth , I think they run from the age of thirteen to seventeen or eighteen. 'Iheir- involvement as such, they do no t simply sit ba a chair and listen eo this and go bomeJ 'fhey question u. !lome of them, I dQ not know , some of them may even experi11lf!nt vith it, but the fact is that ~hey are treated as adults~ fhat you get sound logical reasonin g, rathet than strai ght ad~anition. And I believe, tbat. t~e.

All~ed Youth Organization is worki ng in this ProVince in the area& where it has been established, Now how do you ever figure it out? Do you have to wait for twenty years, or thirty yea r s and check the statistiC& aod say , John Jones who is now forty yeaES o! a~e. was in All!ed Youth when he vas f1fteent and today be is a tee-totaler or he has not become an alcoholic. But certainly the program appears- to be fairly good. Now Rev.

Isaacs has publicly stat e d that he is seeking greater financial part~c1pation by this Prov.ince. insofar as this organization is concerned • because as he aays, they do no t'· have the f unda. to deal with r...lte real prob l~m of alcoholism in Newfoundland. "MR. ROBERTS;. The,? do not: have the ability ei