Alberta Hansard — 27 April 1981, Afternoon sitting (14:30) (Legislature 19, Session 3)

19810427

Alberta — Debates (Hansard)

April 27, 1981 ALBERTA HANSARD 331 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Monday, April 27, 1981 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to file with the Legislative Assembly four copies of a book called Assist ing Regional Communities, Industry and Business, the 1981 programs for the Department of Tourism and Small Business. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MRS. CHICHAK: Mr.

Speaker, I have the distinct pleasure this afternoon of introducing to you and to members of the Assembly approximately 30 students of the Grant MacEwan college Cromdale campus. They are accompanied by their instructor and leader Mr. Don Whalen. I have an apology I would like to communicate to members. Because of my involvement today with citizen ship court, I didn't have the opportunity to meet with them, which I always enjoy doing. I particularly enjoy spending approximately an hour with each group that attends from this particular campus, and I wasn't able to accommodate that today.

They are seated in the members gallery. Certainly I want to have them received as we always receive special guests. I would ask them to rise and receive the welcome of the Assembly. DR. McCRIMMON: Mr. Speaker, it's my privilege today to introduce to you, and through you to members of the Assembly, 18 students from the Chief Jimmy Bruneau school, situated 60 miles from Yellowknife in the Northwest Territories. They are accompanied by their teacher Valerie Walker and are seated in the members gallery.

We're delighted they can be here and hope they have a pleasant journey on their sightseeing and educa tional tour throughout Alberta. We're delighted to have them in the province. I would ask them to rise now and receive the welcome of the Assembly. MRS. FYFE: Mr. Speaker, through you to all members of the Assembly, I would like to introduce 15 members from the Mouvement des Femmes Chretiennes, from the village of Legal in the St. Albert constituency. They are seated in the members gallery, and I would ask them if they would stand and receive the recognition of the Assembly, s'il vous plait. MR. FJORDBOTTEN: Mr.

Speaker, today it's an honor for me to introduce to you, and through you to members of the Assembly, a grade 8 class from the West Edmon ton Christian school in the Edmonton Jasper Place con stituency. I'd like to introduce this class on behalf of the Hon. Les Young, Minister of Labour and MLA for that constituency, who is in Calgary today addressing the Open Doors conference. A Christian school is always unique to introduce, Mr. Speaker, and I'd ask the grade 8 class and their teacher Mr. Peter Leenheer, Mrs. Renee McLaws, and their bus driver Mr. Bill Vanderwoude to rise in the public gallery. DR. WEBBER: Mr.

Speaker, I'm very honored today to have the privilege of introducing to you and to members of the Assembly 46 grade 6 students from the Queen Elizabeth school in my constituency of Calgary Bow, who I think today are also fans of the Calgary Flames. AN HON. MEMBER: We all are. DR. WEBBER: They are accompanied by their teachers John Curda and John Rooke and are seated in the public gallery. I would ask that they rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. head: MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Treasury MR. HYNDMAN: Mr.

Speaker, today the Alberta Mu nicipal Financing Corporation, more informally known as AMFC, marks its 25th year of successful operation. When it was established as a non-profit corporation by

an Act of this Legislature in 1956, its object was to assist municipalities, school and hospital boards in their financ ing requirements at reduced cost. Today, 25 years later, the corporation symbolizes the growth and development of the province by satisfying the financial borrowing requirements of its local government customers. These requirements totalled almost $0.75 bil lion in the year 1980 alone.

Since it began, the corpora tion has made over $4 billion worth of loans to share holders at lower interest rates than they would have had to pay elsewhere, plus bringing significant savings to property taxpayers. There have been no repayment de faults on any of these loans to date. The corporation's shareholders now total over 500 municipalities, schools, nursing homes, and hospitals. I pay tribute to this successful venture and to its past and present directors, and table today the 25th Anniver sary report of the Alberta Municipal Financing Corporation. Department of Education MR. KING: Mr.

Speaker, today is the first day of Education Week across Alberta. The theme of Education Week, Alberta Today, has been the catalyst for a variety of activities and celebrations in the schools across the province. It has sparked the creativity and imagination of our students and the enthusiastic involvement of many communities. This year the provincial Education Week committee sponsored a province-wide crafts competition. The win ning entries, one per grade, are on display in the hallway outside my office. I would invite you, Mr.

Speaker, all other members of the Assembly, and other interested people, to witness the flair and originality of Alberta's youth in applying the theme. The display will remain here throughout Education Week. The purpose of Education Week is to highlight educa

332 ALBERTA HANSARD April 27, 1981 tion in the province, both inside and outside the class room. A quality education is the basic tool we can give our youth to equip them to be full and contributing citizens. This is why our schools must be an integral part of our communities. It is this reality that also triggered the Education Week committee to place special emphasis on developing volunteer resource programs in our schools. These programs are the product of team effort by teachers and community members to bring the re sources of our neighborhoods into our classrooms.

I commend the provincial Education Week committee for its sterling efforts. I would like the members, who are seated in the Speaker's gallery, to be recognized by the members of the Legislative Assembly. They are Mr. Ed Kilpatrick, from ACCESS; Mr. David Flower, from the Alberta Teachers' Association; Beryl Ballhorn, from the Alberta Federation of Home and School Associations; and Barbara LaCroix, from the Alberta School Trustees' Association. The co-chairmen were Mary Ricard, former ly of Alberta Education, and Linda Lomax, currently of Alberta Education.

I would ask them to rise and receive the welcome of the Assembly. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to express my apprecia tion to Mrs. Peter Lougheed, who acted as the honorary chairman of Education Week this year and whose sched ule does not permit her attendance with other members of the committee in the Assembly this afternoon. Department of Advanced Education and Manpower MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, our heritage was shaped by Albertans who believed in themselves and in the future of this province.

The government of Alberta has chosen to recognize the significant contributions of 10 persons by naming Alberta Heritage Scholarships in their honor. As I announced last September, $100 million has been endowed from the capital projects division of the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund to make this unique pro gram possible. Of the annual interest earned, $5.5 million will be required in this introductory year of the Alberta Heritage Scholarship Fund. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce the names of the people honored and to give a brief description of the individual scholarships.

Scholarships for high school achievement have been named in honor of Alexander Rutherford, Alberta's first Premier and first Minister of Education. He was a found er of the University of Alberta and served as Chancellor until 1927. The Alexander Rutherford Scholarships will encourage and reward more than 1,300 high school stu dents who have demonstrated outstanding academic abili ty in grades 10, 11, and 12. Students who qualify in each grade for this scholarship will receive $1,500 during their first semester at a postsecondary institution. Mr.

Speaker, I have brochures which will be made available to each member of the Assembly as to each of the awards. The Alberta Heritage Scholarships for undergraduate achievement honor Louise McKinney, who in 1917 was the first woman to be elected to a legislature in the British Empire. She was one of the famous five who won the right for Canadian women to be recognized legally as persons. Upon recommendation of the university, college, or technical institute, the Louise McKinney Postsecondary Scholarships will be awarded to undergraduate students who have demonstrated exceptional academic achieve ment.

Five hundred scholarships of $3,000 each will be awarded annually. The Awards of Distinction for study in Alberta ac knowledge the lifelong contribution of Alberta's Lieutenant-Governor from 1974 to 1979. Ralph Stein- hauer won more than the respect due his office; he won our respect and admiration as a remarkable individual. These awards, named in his honor, recognize academic excellence and provide a means for Alberta universities to retain top scholars and attract others from across Cana da.

Awards of $10,000 will be made to students in masters or extended professional programs; $15,000 to students at the doctoral level. Similar Awards of Distinction for study outside Alber ta have been named in honor of Sir James Lougheed, the Calgary pioneer who served as a senator and cabinet minister in several federal governments in the late 1800s and early 1900s. He was knighted in 1916 for his services for the government of Canada and was instrumental in preserving natural resources for the Crown in the right of Alberta.

The Sir James Lougheed Awards of Distinction will recognize exceptional academic ability and provide Al berta students with the opportunity for advanced study at the masters, extended professional, or doctoral levels at prestigious institutions anywhere in the world. Twenty awards of $10,000 or $15,000 will be made each year. The Wilfrid R. 'Wop' May Scholarships for Career Development honor a legendary figure in Canada's avia tion history. An early bush pilot and founder of Edmon ton's first air service, he helped open up Alberta's north ern frontier.

These scholarships will provide an incentive and means for members of our professional, managerial, and administrative work force to upgrade their education at the masters, professional, or doctoral levels. Ten scho larships of $10,000 or $15,000 will be awarded each year. The Michael Luchkovich Scholarships for Career De velopment recognize the achievements of the teacher, par liamentarian, businessman, and writer who worked to further understanding of the contribution to Canada made by Canadians of Ukrainian origin. He was a Member of Parliament for Vegreville from 1926 to 1935.

These scholarships will recognize and reward Albertans who have shown exceptional ability in their work. For short-term study, full-time for less than six months, and for part-time study such as evening courses, the scholar ships will cover the cost of tuition, fees, books, and supplies. The Charles S. Noble Scholarships honor the agricul tural entrepreneur, innovator, and inventor of the Noble blade cultivator, who became one of Alberta's biggest and best grain farmers. These scholarships offer an opportuni ty for Albertans to propose creative ways to utilize Herit age Scholarship Fund moneys.

Individuals, community organizations, professional associations, and postsecond ary institutions are invited to submit proposals regarding disposition of an additional $75,000 per year in scholar ship funds. The Jimmie Condon Athletic Scholarships honor the man who, for many years, sponsored and promoted amateur sport in Calgary. Mr. Speaker, Jimmie Condon is now 93 years of age and remains keenly interested in sports and activities in his community. These scholarships will acknowledge the excellence of amateur Alberta ath letes at our universities, colleges, and technical institu tions.

These scholarships will provide recognition of the sustained commitment required at this level of competi tion and encourage students to continue their academic pursuits. Full-time students who maintain graduation

April 27, 1981 ALBERTA HANSARD 333 average and are members of designated teams that take

part in at least six games or competitions leading to national championship may apply. Approximately 500 scholarships, valued at $1,000 each, will be awarded at the university level. Another 500 scholarships, valued at $500 each, will be awarded at the college and technical institute level. The Recreation Scholarships have been named in honor of J. Percy Page, Lieutenant-Governor of Alberta from 1960 to 1965, who was coach for 26 years of the world-famous basketball team, the Edmonton Grads.

These scholarships will recognize and reward outstanding coaches and leaders in the field of recreation, honoring their contribution to the health and well-being of Alber tans. Specific criteria are still to be finalized. Mr. Speaker, as previously announced, our most pres tigious award has been named in honor of Sir Frederick Haultain, who led Alberta and Saskatchewan into Con federation in 1905. The Sir Frederick Haultain Prize will acknowledge exceptional accomplishment by Albertans in the categories of fine, applied, or performing arts, social or physical sciences, and education or humanities.

Prizes of $25,000 will be awarded annually in each of the categories. I am indebted to the Hon. J.W. Grant MacEwan for his recommendations regarding names for the scholar ships, and to Dr. Maury Van Vliet, Dr. Lou Goodwin, and Clarence Venance for their recommendations regard ing the athletic and recreation scholarships. Their interest and efforts are greatly appreciated. Mr. Speaker, the brochures and application forms are in the final stages of production and will be distributed to postsecondary institutions and high schools during the next two weeks.

Advertisements are being placed in all daily and community newspapers and selected magazines throughout the province, to inform Albertans of the scope and magnitude of this scholarship program. Ma terial will be mailed directly to the hundreds of people who inquired following the initial announcement of our intention to establish the fund. The Alberta Heritage Scholarship Fund is the most comprehensive scholarship program in the western world.

It is unique in recognizing exceptional achievements from high school through postsecondary levels, career accom plishments, leadership in athletics and recreation, and excellence in the arts, sciences, and humanities. Mr. Speaker, I am confident that for many years to come this province will benefit from this exciting investment in its people and their abilities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Former Alberta Energy Minister MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my questions today are again in terms of the accountability of the govern ment. My question is directed to the hon.

Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. I'd like to ask whether the former Minister of Energy and Natural Resources, Mr. Getty, is assisting the government in its preparation for the ongoing energy negotiations. As well, did Mr. Getty meet with either the minister or the Premier following the Winnipeg meetings? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first part of the question is no. The former Minister of Energy and Natural Resources, Mr.

Getty, was on a consulting con tract from March or April 1979, I believe, until the end of 1979, but has not been involved with the government on a consulting basis since that time. With respect to the second part of the question, Mr. Speaker, I did not meet with nor speak to Mr. Getty subsequent to the meeting of April 13. I do understand that the Premier met with Mr. Getty and others, I think, the day after the meeting of April 13. The purpose of that meeting was other than energy matters, but naturally the question of the Winnipeg meeting came up during the meeting.

From speaking to the Premier, I understand that he commented on that meeting in the same terms as I did following the meeting in Winnipeg on April 13, and as I did subsequently in the House. Finally, Mr. Speaker, I would just make the observa tion that I notice from a report in the Journal following the conversation to which I think the hon. Leader of the Opposition refers, that Mr.

Getty commented that his comments were, as I gathered, of a speculative or fore casting nature, based on his own general knowledge, which would be public and similar to the knowledge all Members of the Legislative Assembly would have. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques tion to the minister. My second question relates to the comments of the minister. In the comments of Mr.

Getty, he indicated that Ottawa could potentially abolish the 8 per cent petroleum revenue tax and raise prices between $4 and $6 in June, and that in turn Alberta would possibly lift the oil production cutbacks, plus a couple of other comments. Just to confirm the government's posi tion, would the minister indicate that the government disassociates itself from those remarks at this point in time? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, since I referred to a conver sation the hon. Premier had with Mr.

Getty, I should perhaps add to my earlier answer by saying that the Premier will be back in the House this Friday, following the meeting of the western premiers, and I'm sure he will be pleased to expand on the answer I gave, should the hon. Leader of the Opposition want to pursue it at that time.

I'd simply respond in this way to the other portion of the question of the Leader of the Opposition: there are speculative stories almost daily — in fact, almost more than one come out per day — about what might be done or said with respect to the various energy matters under discussion between the producing provinces and the fed eral government. I've followed the consistent policy, Mr. Speaker — and I don't think there's any alternate, rea sonable policy one could follow — of saying that I simply won't comment on those speculative stories. I think I can add that in any discussions I've had with Mr.

Getty, I've certainly not discussed any of those concepts or proposals referred to in the question of the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister. It's my concern that with regard to a con tinued position of the minister in this Assembly, energy negotiations will not be negotiated in public. As Leader of the Opposition, I've said that we respect that at this point in time. My question to the minister is: can he say to us in this Assembly that no information was supplied to Mr. Getty as a private citizen, behind closed doors, or

334 ALBERTA HANSARD April 27, 1981 in any other meeting, that has not been supplied to us in this Legislative Assembly? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I don't have the slightest hesitation in giving that assurance to the Assembly. I'm sure that if the hon. Leader of the Opposition wishes to put that question to the Premier when he returns to the House this Friday, insofar as he had the meeting with Mr. Getty that I've already referred to, from my discus sions with the hon. Premier I'm satisfied that he will provide the same answer I've given. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, to the hon. minister on a point of clarification.

I believe the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources indicated that Mr. Getty has not been paid by public funds as of 1979. Is that what the minister said? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I said that as I recall, the consulting contract Mr. Getty had with the Department of Energy and Natural Resources terminated at the end of December 1979. Since that time he has not been under any contractual arrangement with the provincial govern ment, at least none to my knowledge. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques tion to the minister.

Then could the minister indicate whether continued informal consultation is going on by Mr. Getty to the government, did occur prior to the Winnipeg meeting, and did occur in an informal conver sation following the Winnipeg meeting? Could the minis ter elaborate on the comment he made a few moments ago with regard to the Premier meeting with the broader committee to discuss as one of the informal topics, energy negotiations? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. Leader of the Opposition has taken more than he ought to from the answer I gave to the earlier question.

I had indicated that the day following the April 13 meeting in Winnipeg, I believe the Premier had a meeting with Mr. Getty and others on other matters, and I didn't refer to it as a committee. My understanding is that it was not a committee. I simply said that naturally the question of the Winni peg meeting came up at that time. My understanding from discussions with the hon.

Premier is that he simply repeated the essence of what I had said in Winnipeg following the meeting and what I said in the House, namely: some new concepts had been explored; I had felt that some progress had been made, but added the very significant caution that one should not place too much weight on that phrase; that there was obviously a long way yet to go if we were to reach an agreement. With respect to the reference in the question to "infor mal consultation", I would certainly not have used those words. Of course I have known Mr.

Getty for a number of years and meet with him on occasion — I think perhaps once or twice since the termination of his con sulting contract at the end of 1979, and did have a luncheon with him sometime within a month or so prior to the April 13 meeting. The discussion then was general. Obviously, because of my present position and his past position, we discussed the energy situation in Canada in general terms, but I certainly wouldn't have described that luncheon or our conversation during that luncheon as of a consultative nature. It was a luncheon at which we discussed a number of things. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, a final supplementary to the minister in this area of accountability to this Legislature. Number one, can the minister indicate to us that remarks made by Mr. Getty are not statements of this government and, number two, that the statements are not unpaid kites of this government that we find are made rather regularly by the various ministers. I'd hate to see an ex-minister doing it outside this House. MR. LEITCH: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'll ignore the offen sive barb of the hon. Leader of the Opposition, because he needs to get those little gibes in every once in a while to attract some attention.

And it's not a very effective way of attracting attention. I think the best way to answer that is again to call attention to the report in the Edmonton Journal follow ing the program on ITV, in which I thought Mr. Getty made it clear that his views were personal and not based on discussions with the Premier or anyone else. I'm satis fied that refers to forecasting by Mr. Getty, if you like, on information that is in the general public domain. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, it was hard to get a yes or no; it would have been a short answer. Capital Projects Costs MR. R.

SPEAKER: My second question to the Minister of Housing and Public Works relates to the report of the Auditor General and Recommendation No. 34. In there the Auditor General is concerned with regard to the total estimated cost of capital projects. Under Vote 4 of the estimates for the Department of Housing and Public Works, which relates to planning and implementation of construction projects, could the minister provide informa tion to the Assembly with regard to the estimated total cost of projects, costs expended, and moneys unexpended to date with regard to various capital projects.

Has the minister looked at this recommendation of the Auditor General, and will it be taken into consideration for the House? MR. CHAMBERS: Mr. Speaker, we always take into consideration the recommendations of the Auditor Gen eral and generally find them most constructive, helpful, and useful. Occasionally there may be some item which, in terms of accounting, might be a matter of a philoso phy, where we might not always agree, but in general we find them extremely constructive and helpful. I'll be happy to go into any details on the cost of our projects during the course of my estimates. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary ques tion. I'm pleased the minister is agreeable. Will the minis ter then provide for us the estimate of total cost of all the capital projects prior to the study of his estimates in this Legislature? MR. CHAMBERS: Well, Mr. Speaker, we have a lot of projects under construction. In my budget estimates we're dealing with current expenditures. Given the size of dif ferent projects and considering inflation costs can vary over the years, we certainly will try to identify as closely as possibly what those costs are. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques tion to the minister.

In terms of accountability and a recommendation from the Auditor General, will the min

April 27, 1981 ALBERTA HANSARD 335 ister do it or not? Has he considered it? Is it impossible to do it for this study of the estimates and, if so, what other choices will the minister give the Assembly? MR. CHAMBERS: Mr. Speaker, I'm not really sure just when my estimates will be before this House. I'll certainly take that under consideration. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques tion. Would the minister consider this format for esti mates presented in this Legislature in future years?

Is the minister accepting as a principle putting total capital costs in the estimates, so members of the Legislature have that information before them? MR. CHAMBERS: Mr. Speaker, I said I would be happy to look at that recommendation and consider it. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques tion to the Provincial Treasurer with regard to the capital projects in the Heritage Savings Trust Fund. Has the Provincial Treasurer considered the principle of putting in the total capital cost for a project?

That doesn't mean, as the Auditor General points out, that we approve that total cost; it means that members in the Assembly know what it is and know the projected total capital cost at that time. Has the Provincial Treasurer taken that into con sideration for estimates under the capital projects division? MR. HYNDMAN: Not yet, Mr. Speaker, but I'll certain ly be doing so prior to consideration of the capital proj ects division estimates this fall. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques tion.

Has the government or the Provincial Treasurer considered implementing this program or recommenda tion of the Auditor General across the board in the total budget wherever capital projects become involved, and not only listing what will be expended in a current year but over the total cost of a project? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, the report of the Audi tor General is still very recent. There are some 55 careful ly thought out recommendations. Neither I nor the gov ernment have considered them in depth.

But as we con sider them — and that is one which we will consider — we'll certainly bring back our response and approach to the Assembly. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques tion. Would the Provincial Treasurer undertake the re sponsibility to attempt, where possible, to provide that information for the study of the estimates during this spring session of the Legislature? MR. HYNDMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I thought the question was with regard to capital projects division esti mates, which won't come until the fall. But I think no. The government firstly has to consider the implications.

There may be a significant number of implications with regard to each and every recommendation. So in fairness and in order to look intelligently at the recommendations, I certainly have to say it would not be possible to say yes, no, or maybe to any of them this soon. We'd want to consider, weigh, and balance them; then we'll certainly respond to the Assembly with regard to each and every recommendation, whether the government will or will not follow them or modify them. That would be a later conclusion. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, would the Provincial Treasurer undertake the responsibility of bringing a rec ommendation to this Assembly in the fall Legislature so that we have a principle established prior to setting the 1982-83 budget, with regard to listing the total capital cost of projects? MR. HYNDMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think that's the point: I can't bring a recommendation to the Assembly unless I formally endorse a particular position. Neither I nor the government have yet had a chance to review and say whether or not the approach will be to endorse each of the recommendations in whole or in part. Private Schools DR.

BUCK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Education. I'd like to know if the minister is in a position to indicate if there has been a significant increase in the number of private Christian schools in the province in the last year? MR. KING: It's difficult to know what we would consid er to be significant, Mr. Speaker, but there is an increase in the number of Class 1 private schools organized by churches. Those schools use certificated teachers, follow the Alberta curriculum, and receive a grant from Alberta Education.

Not only is there an increase in the number of schools, but each of those schools is also enrolling in creased numbers of students. So it is true that a greater proportion of our students are now being educated in the Class 1 private schools of the province. There has been virtually no change in the number of Class 4 private schools, which do not use certificated teachers and use a curriculum approved by the minister but not the standard Alberta curriculum. Class 4 schools do not receive any financial assistance from the provincial government. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister.

In the case of Class 4 schools, the minister indicated the percentage of non-certificated teachers is relatively high. Can the minister indicate how closely the Alberta Department of Education curriculum is followed by Class 4 schools? MR. KING: The so-called core curriculum is really fol lowed quite closely. The most noticeable difference be tween conventional schools and Class 4 schools is proba bly that Class 4 schools do not teach the elective component of courses or elective courses. They concen trate on what we refer to as the basics. DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, can the minister indicate if any studies are being done by his department, in conjunction with the Alberta Teachers' Association and the Alberta School Trustees' Association, as to projections of what will happen to the public school system in years to come as our private-school system increases in size and num ber? Can the minister indicate if any studies are being done to look down the road at this question? MR. KING: Not at the present time, Mr. Speaker, al though we as a government have made a public undertak

336 ALBERTA HANSARD April 27, 1981 ing that in two years a major study would be undertaken along the lines suggested by the hon. member. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. This has to do with the so-called voucher system. A school close to the city of Edmonton, the Sherwood Park Alliance Church school, has made an offer to look at being a pilot project for the voucher system. Is the minister in a position to indicate if the government is looking at implementing the so-called voucher system? MR. KING: Mr.

Speaker, I can remember having a meeting in my office about a year ago, I think, with the administration of the Sherwood Park Alliance Church, attended by Mr. Henry Woo, who is the MLA. The voucher system was discussed, but at that time I indicated to Rev. Throness that I didn't consider an experiment with the voucher system viable if it involved only one school, particularly only one private school. Because ob viously the purpose of the voucher system is to enable the parents and children to make choices about where their children will go.

If the voucher can only be spent in one location, you don't have any choice. I do know that in another municipality in the province, a school jurisdiction is considering an experiment with the voucher system. They are trying to involve the other school jurisdiction and the private schools. So if they can get the co-operation of the two tax-supported systems and the private schools, I think we would have the basis for an experiment with the voucher system, though not in the case suggested by the Sherwood Park Alliance Church. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a supplementary question to the minister.

It flows from the earlier portion of my colleague's question regarding pri vate schools, and the number of students going to the private school, and therefore fewer students being in what's referred to in general terms as the public system, especially in rural Alberta.

My question to the minister: at this time is the department giving any consideration to some sort of special financial assistance to those rural jurisdictions which, for a variety of reasons, are finding an increasing number of students enrolling in private schools, the result being that in a rural system, where there's only the one public system, that is having a detrimental effect on the financial support boards receive from the province? MR. KING: We do have such grants in place at the present time, Mr. Speaker.

We have transitional grants that are payable to a public school board that loses students to a newly formed private school. We also have declining enrolment grants, small school grants, and small jurisdiction grants. Now the hon. member may be making the representa tion that we should look at the numbers that are plugged into the formula, that we should look at enriching the grants. We're doing that on an ongoing basis. I might also relate it to the Stage 2 finance study on education that is going to be commenced this summer and will run through the last half of 1981 and 1982.

So there may be additional changes there. On the other hand, Mr. Speaker, I would remind all hon. members that we should look carefully at the devel opment of private schools, because in at least some cases they are simply reflecting dissatisfaction with the public school system. It could be that if public school boards were more sympathetic to the concerns being expressed by parents, other viable alternatives could be found that would not result in the development of a new private school.

For example, in Edmonton a number of con cerned parents operate their program as an alternative program within the public system, rather than as a pri vate program. They are able to do that because the parents and the board have worked out an accommoda tion that is advantageous to both parties. Highway Construction MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Tranportation. Could the minister indicate what progress has been made with the 10-year program to twin the Trans-Canada Highway and High way No. 16? MR. KROEGER: Mr.

Speaker, we did develop an out line for a 10-year program, which of necessity would break into 10 parts. We're embarked on the first part as we designed it for the 1981 year. The 10-year package has not been accepted as a total factor. MR. MANDEVILLE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister indicate what sections of the Trans-Canada Highway are scheduled to be twinned this coming year? MR. KROEGER: Mr. Speaker, I'm developing a minis terial statement now, and I'll be bringing that in in the next couple of days. MR. MANDEVILLE: A further supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Has the minister or his department taken any surveys on the supply of contractors for highway construction this year, also as far as the supply of asphalt is concerned? MR. KROEGER: Mr. Speaker, we have assurances there'll be no problem with the supply of asphalt for this year. The contractor supply is a different thing. We gauge that without doing a survey. Actually, we can tell what sort of situation we'll have by the number of bids we get on various contracts. So far, we have had more bids than we really expected. MR. MANDEVILLE: One final supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Has the minister conferred with the Provin cial Treasurer to see if he could get a matching grant to match the little donation he has, so he could speed up the twinning of the highways in the province? MR. KROEGER: No, Mr. Speaker, but I'll take it under advisement. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister, not to do with the particular number of miles of road to be built but with government policy. Is the minister in a position to indicate at this time if the road to Fort McMurray is going to be twinned in its entirety? Is that a long-range policy projection of this government? MR.

KROEGER: No, Mr. Speaker, we don't have that kind of plan. In the twinning area we've been concerning ourselves more with Nos. 1 and 16. However, we are

April 27, 1981 ALBERTA HANSARD 337 aware of the lack of shoulders on No. 63. We are working on developing, and will be building, some passing lanes this year to make it a little easier to manoeuvre. But we do not have plans to twin. DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, then as another policy area, is the minister in a position to indicate if that road to Fort McMurray — if the minister's department is giving active consideration to linking up the Cold Lake-Lac La Biche- Highway 63 roads so that if the government ever gets its act together and gets the tar sands project going in Cold Lake, those two areas will be linked by all-weather roads? MR. KROEGER: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, I don't recog nize the specific area. Could you give me clarification? DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, to the minister.

I believe that sometime in the future we will be going ahead with the Cold Lake oil sands project. In light of the fact that some of the personnel and equipment will be used in the Fort McMurray and Cold Lake areas, we have to have a road to join those two projects. My question to the minister: is the minister giving active consideration to connecting the road from Cold Lake, through Lac La Biche, to Highway 63? MR. KROEGER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we've been in con sultation, particularly with the energy-related projects that are going on in the general area described by the member.

We're doing some work in identifying a route, but we haven't any plans at the moment of going into construction. Stanley Cup Playoffs MR. OMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Recreation and Parks. The events of this past week now clearly indicate that there's not going to be a classic all-Canadian, all-Alberta final in the Stanley Cup. It looks like there's only one team bearing the flame for all Alberta and Canada. Would the minister consider sending a communication from all members of the Legis lature indicating a sort of "go Flames go" spirit of support for the Calgary team? MR.

TRYNCHY: Mr. Speaker, the last time they asked for that, we did send a telegram and it worked. Maybe we could send another one. MR. OMAN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. I believe those communications were only batting about .500. Per haps you should send a letter of congratulations to the Edmonton Oilers as well for a good job done. But let's see if you can bat 1.000 this time. Seat Belt Legislation MR. BATIUK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Transportation.

In view of the police associa tion's annual meeting in Nova Scotia over the weekend, strong opposition was expressed to mandatory seat belt legislation. Even though there is legislation in Nova Sco tia, could the minister advise whether he has had any information why this has not been acted on? MR. KROEGER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure that I'm prepared to go into a debate on seat belt legislation at the moment. If the question is as it relates to Nova Scotia: no, I've had no information from them. International Trade MR. R. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct my question to the Minister of State for Economic Develop ment — International Trade. What will be the three major areas of the minister's activity be this fiscal year, from the standpoint of travel? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Speaker, in general we try to con tact nations which have already explored, or are about to drill, for natural gas, oil, or other hydrocarbons. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister. Perhaps the minister could be somewhat more explicit and indicate what specific locations, what na tions, the minister will be focussing on this year? MR. SCHMID: Mr.

Speaker, among the nations we hope to contact are countries like the Philippines, Malay sia, Indonesia, and others which are possibly interested in Alberta expertise and technology. MR. R. CLARK: Could the minister indicate to the Assembly the kind of follow-up that takes place when the minister returns from one of those exchanges? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Speaker, if I may use Pakistan as an example. First of all, as a follow-up of our mission there, one of the Alberta companies signed a $2.5 million con tract for an oil field development.

In fact, [they] are presently negotiating with an Alberta company for the speed-up of delivery of work of a rig in the value of between $2 million and $3 million. As well, Pakistan is interested in getting a crew to work that rig at the same time. We also have followed up with a company in terested in manufacturing some of the auxiliary equip ment for these rigs in Pakistan and, in fact, we have involved several engineering companies of Alberta in a reservoir engineering study. Some of the Alberta compa nies doing so are on a short list for that reservoir engi neering.

This is an example of the follow-ups we have done of one particular country. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, perhaps a more specific question to the minister. Could the minister indicate to the Assembly specifically what steps he and his staff, or whoever travels along with the minister, take when they come back to Alberta? The reason I ask the question — and I'm not complaining about the work done in those countries, but I'm very concerned about the follow-up that's done. How is that follow-up facilitated within the provincial government itself?

Very specifically, who is responsible here at home in Alberta while the minister wings away on the next junket? I say "junket" in a positive manner. MR. SCHMID: Mr. Speaker, each area of the globe is divided into sectors for which we have international trade directors responsible. It is the responsibility of the inter national trade director, who normally travels along with me on those missions, to then work on the follow-up.

Maybe I'll give an example: not very long ago we were in Nigeria, a mission with an additional five to eight Alberta companies leaving to go back to Nigeria within the next week as follow-up work. When we returned, we immedi

338 ALBERTA HANSARD April 27, 1981 ately contacted the companies, which either went along with us or were promising to receive contracts in the respective countries. We continue to follow up until either a contract is signed and negotiated or at least until we are satisfied that the follow-up work is completely finished to the satisfaction of either the country involved or Alberta companies. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, one last question to the minister. Mr.

Minister, would it then be fair to conclude that the international trade director responsible for the various sectors the minister visits is responsible for the follow-up work done at home? And to whom is that trade director responsible: the minster or one of the other departments? MR. SCHMID: International trade directors are respon sible to the minister through their superiors, who in this case would be the assistant deputy minister of trade development, the deputy minister, then to me. Highway 16 Cave-in MR. PURDY: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to ask the Minister of Transportation a question, and it's not related to the minister's pothole challenge. A very dangerous problem occurred on Highway 16 west of Wabamun on Saturday night, where part of the highway fell in, causing a hole about 5 feet in diameter. A large number of loads of gravel and asphalt had to be dumped in to make the road safe after that. I understand this problem also occurred last year. Will the minister consider having the area tested ultrasonically to deter mine if any other worked-out coal mine pits are under that particular piece of roadway? MR. KROEGER: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, we are aware of the cave-in. We're not totally sure what's causing it. I don't know about the ultrasonic testing. We are bringing in some drills to see what's going on down there, but apparently there was a similar cave-in two years ago. We are on the job now, and at the moment that part of the road is being detoured under supervision. ORDERS OF THE DAY head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS (Committee of Supply) [Mr. Purdy in the Chair] MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Committee of Supply will please come to order for consideration of the De partment of Advanced Education and Manpower.

Department of Advanced Education and Manpower MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Has the minister any opening comments? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate this op portunity to introduce the 1981-82 estimates of the De partment of Advanced Education and Manpower. The budget estimates which you have before you anticipate a 22.1 per cent increase over the forecasted expenditures for 1980-81, to a total of $663,731,084 for operating and capital purposes.

In addition, the estimates for Alberta Housing and Public Works will provide $13,332,000 for the construction and furnishing of new facilities for the provincially administered institutions. The 1981-82 estimates reflect a continued emphasis on the regional expansion of postsecondary education. The public colleges are assuming a more significant role in providing training for Albertans in the trades and techno logies, which of course is so necessary for our developing economy. Instructional facilities and student housing projects are under construction or in the planning stages.

Temporary instructional facilities have been provided at Fairview, Medicine Hat, and Red Deer, and new appren ticeship programs are already being offered. In addition to the expressed local needs of people in growing Alberta communities, Advanced Education insti tutions are being assisted to provide courses and pro grams on a co-operative outreach basis. Funds are being provided for the lease of local facilities and the establish ment of a local presence through regional co-ordinators.

This aspect of regional expansion is bringing educational services to Albertans in Brooks, Crowsnest Pass-Pincher Creek, Drumheller and area, Drayton Valley, the Yel- lowhead region, Peace River, and MacKenzie North. The estimates also reflect operating and capital costs of new program initiatives throughout the Advanced Educa tion system. Support for new course development is in creasing from $4.2 million to $16.2 million. As I an nounced on February 19 this year, we expect that up to 113 new programs will be in place by September 1981.

Those will be in universities, public colleges, technical institutes, and vocational centres. This new program de velopment has been focused upon provincial and region al needs for a well-educated population with a broad range of occupations relating to important social, cultur al, and economic priorities. As noted by the hon. Provincial Treasurer in his Budget Address, government spending on capital projects at the postsecondary institutions will increase by 41.6 per cent to exceed $148 million this year. The total capital commitment is in excess of $250 million.

Other major new initiatives reflected in the estimates include the 1980s Advanced Education endowment fund. An amount of $8 million is included for the fiscal year we are discussing, and already several major commitments have been made to match generous gifts to our institutions. This matching grant program, which you will recall involves a total commitment of $80 million over 10 years, has met with wide acceptance and presents an opportuni ty for donations from the private sector to be matched by government.

I should also mention the Alberta Heritage Scholarship Fund, legislation for which is currently be fore the House. And of course today in a ministerial statement I announced in more particulars the 10 divi sions with the names of those we are recognizing as pioneers in this province. This major new investment of the heritage fund in human resources or capital — I don't really like that term — perhaps in our citizens of this province, will be administered through the Students Finance Board.

Together with expansions of financial aid to students, this important new program requires addi tional administrative support services, which are provided for in the budget. With specific reference to the budget estimates, the scope of the department's responsibility is outlined in four votes. Vote 1 covers general support services. Vote 2 deals with operating and capital support to the postsec

April 27, 1981 ALBERTA HANSARD 339 ondary institutions and further education councils throughout the province. Vote 3 covers apprenticeship, employment development, career development, and spe cial manpower programs. Vote 4 deals with financial aid to students, including the administration of the Alberta Heritage Scholarship Fund. Mr. Chairman, with these few words, I'll be pleased to respond to any questions and comments as we proceed through the estimates. MR. R. CLARK: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to make a few general remarks with regard to an overview of the esti mates for the Department of Advanced Education and Manpower, and then say to the minister that when each vote is called it's my intention to ask a number of specific questions with regard to the figures in the estimates book and the elements book. I'm not sure whether I should start with my pleasures or my disappointments, as far as dealing with the esti mates of the Department of Advanced Education and Manpower. But I think I'll make the decision, Mr.

Chairman, and say that I'd be less than frank if I didn't mention on behalf of my own constituents in Olds- Didsbury, especially those people in Olds, their very real disappointment that it wasn't possible, for reasons which I hope will become obvious — the minister will explain here this afternoon — to include the Olds student services facility in the capital budget. When one looks at the kind of budget available there, recognizing that the Grant MacEwan college facilities are . . . Well, that huge col umn of money there has diminished somewhat.

But it was certainly my hope, and I guess I'd say the expectation of many folks, that that project would have been able to get a go-ahead this year. I'd be less than responsible to my own constituents if I didn't raise that matter in the course of estimates and ask the minister to reply specifically to that during the course of the debate here this afternoon. On a broader front, and on a somewhat questioning note also, I would ask the minister if we could have some sort of discussion this afternoon on this question of wages.

I relate back to the group on the front steps of the Legislature a week or some 10 days ago. During the question period that afternoon, I made the point that this isn't a group we see very often at all on the front steps of the Legislature Building. Basically it has been my ex perience that the faculty in our universities are a pretty responsible group. Mr. Minister, I'm not advocating for one moment, and I wouldn't want you to attribute this to my comments, that the minister should interfere in the negotiations between the board and the faculty association.

But on the other hand, all of us in this Assembly have to be con cerned about the quality of instruction in all our educa tional institutions. I relate specifically to those faculties where there is great competition from the private sector: engineering, commerce, business administration. Because of the competition from the private sector, it's becoming increasingly difficult for the universities to be able to keep or attract quality people.

A very fleeting bit of checking I've done with other academic institutions in other parts of Canada, and some in the United States, certainly would not lead me to believe that the present wages in Alberta are higher than in other universities. If that checking, albeit initial, is accurate, then I think we have to recognize that we in this province have one of the highest costs of living anyplace in the continent.

Not wanting the department to intrude in the autonomy of the institution and become involved in the negotiations themselves, I would look forward to some comments from the minister as to this question of salaries of academic people, especially in those faculties where there's great pressure from the private sector. I'm extremely pleased about two areas. One is the announcement the minister made about moving to a board-of-governors system at NAIT and SAIT. I'm sure the minister is familiar with the report where that recommendation was made, done by the former Deputy Minister Tim Byrne in 1971.

I've raised the matter in estimates a number of times since, and I think it's a positive move in the right direction. I want to say that that is no reflection at all upon the educational leadership Mr. Fred Jorgenson has given at SAIT, or the present incumbent at NAIT and both gentlemen who preceded those individuals. Given the nature of those institutions, it just seems to me that a move toward a board of governors is appropriate. Mr.

Minister, I would find it very helpful if we could have some indication as to how that search for a board of governors is going to be conducted, also what kind of time line we're looking at in establishing that board of governors. I'd be less than frank if I didn't say that by and large I'm very supportive of the Alberta Heritage Scholarship Fund. Members of the select committee of the Assembly — the Member for Edmonton Whitemud, with whom I don't often agree, and the hon. Mr.

Musgreave, the Member for Calgary McKnight, with whom I find myself agreeing once in a while, along with several others — were able to work out what I thought was a pretty reasonable compromise which came from the heritage savings trust fund committee. Where some of us perhaps would like to have seen it tied to the 75th Anniversary, we're not arguing. The fact is that it's there. It does appear to be a very generous program. I for one am particularly pleased with the athletic scholarship portion of it.

This may be an unpopular thing to say to members on the government side of the House, but the Member for Calgary Buffalo certainly was one of the members on the Heritage Savings Trust Fund committee who was very supportive of that move. Perhaps I'll conclude my initial remarks there, but would very much like to know the time line for NAIT and SAIT boards of governors, also some comments from the minister with regard to this question of faculty salaries, and then I'll be raising specific questions with regard to each of the estimates. MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Does the minister wish to respond to the hon. member's questions now? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Chairman, if other members wish to comment on the general matter, because other mem bers may have similar concerns, perhaps I will try to respond. Then as we get to the individual votes, perhaps other questions could be asked. But if there are any other questions on the general aspect, I'd be pleased to wait. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: There are no other mem bers on the list right now. MR. HORSMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair man. I'd like to thank the hon.

Member for Olds- Didsbury for having seen some good in the department. With respect to his specific concerns about the Olds college learning resource centre, I appreciate the very important representations I've received from the hon. member and from the Olds college board of governors. In

340 ALBERTA HANSARD April 27, 1981 many ways I regret that that particular project did not see the light of day for this fiscal year. I say this, however, in light of the fact that in the colleges system, as a result of the decision taken for the regional expansion process during the last fiscal year, the actual expenditures which related to those items are in this budget. Therefore the colleges budget is very high in capital expenditures across the system.

The only additional new project in this budget relating to the colleges system which was not previously announced is the theatre complex at the Red Deer college. I recognize as well the element involved with the Olds college proposal relating to the fact that the municipality was prepared to co-operate with the college in that endeavor. That struck me as being a particularly impres sive type of co-operation between the community and the college. I can assure the hon. member that that will not be forgotten as I prepare for next year's budget.

I say this in all sincerity because I would like to encourage more and more co-operation of this nature between the munic ipal governments and of course, as I've mentioned in other cases, between the private sector and the institution, so we can get some co-operative activities and joint funding going. So I certainly regret having to inform the hon. member that that particular project was not approved in this current budget. I don't think I can say anything more than that. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to pose an additional question on that matter specifically.

One of the concerns that has been shared with me by a number of people in postsecondary education, especially at the col lege and technical levels, is that with the facility that is going to be developed at Stony Plain, there is a very real danger that money that would logically flow to future capital projects in colleges, NAIT, and SAIT may very well be drained away in rather sizable amounts, for pretty obvious reasons — to get that facility at Stony Plain going very quickly.

I had meant to raise that matter earlier and ask the minister for some kind of assurance as far as the college system and NAIT and SAIT are concerned, that they won't find themselves in a no-capital situation during the time the new technical institute at Stony Plain is being erected. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I apologize to the hon. Member for Calgary North West. I did not recognize her when she was trying to get up; somebody was in my line of view. So I would recognize the member now if she wants to make some general comments, and then the minister can carry on. MRS. EMBURY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate that. Actually some of my remarks will follow on the remarks made by the Member for Olds- Didsbury. I'd be very pleased if the minister could elabo rate further on his comments in his reply to the Speech from the Throne regarding professors' concerns at univer sities. I'm speaking particularly of the University of Cal gary. Having been an assistant professor in the Faculty of Nursing there for many years, I am well aware of some of the concerns the professors have.

I realize that some of these concerns are internal to the system at the university, but if I recall correctly it has been quite some time since the professors have a had decent cost of living increase over the years. As I said, while this is an internal matter — and I believe the president of the University of Cal gary, Dr. Norman Wagner, in his annual speech to the University of Calgary also alluded to the issues and concerns that are before the faculty, the board of gover nors, the senate, et cetera.

Hopefully something can be done so we can try to retain the excellent professors, who are the ones who tend to leave the university for farther fields. I think the University of Calgary has a very fine reputa tion in both the research that is done there and in the quality of education. I certainly agreed with the Member for Olds-Didsbury when he alluded to the fact that cer tain faculties have particular problems. I believe the hon. minister has probably seen the annual report of the Department of Mechanical Engineering of the University of Calgary. I think it is very, very tragic.

Some of the people who have left the Engineering Faculty of the university have certainly not gone very far. As a matter of fact, they have gone just across the street. Here we are faced again with a national issue because we have a major national oil company that has been able to abscond some of the professors from the department and use them total ly in their employment. MR. R. CLARK: Other oil companies hired some too. MRS.

EMBURY: This may be to the credit of the oil company and it certainly does happen with other oil companies too, but I think there is a particular concern in the Department of Mechanical Engineering at the Uni versity of Calgary. With the number of professors who have left, it is doubtful that they will be able to offer the total program in the future. I realize it's very difficult to speak generally about the salaries of professors, and there is an internal merit system. I also think it should be brought out that each faculty receives a certain amount of money.

Based on a system within each faculty in the university, be it a promotions committee or a departmental committee head, there is a system where individual professors in those departments do receive a merit increase based on their academic work of the past year, which of course relates to three areas: not only teaching at the university, but to research and to community service. So possibly that is the best way that each professor who excels re ceives a proper remuneration for their contribution to the university.

However, while we have our guidelines in place, and we know there were some instances when some segments of our population did not abide by those guide lines, I think it is time university professors at least had a 14 per cent increase in their cost of living. We are faced with a housing situation in Calgary. I think that while there are concerns general to all universi ties in the province of Alberta, Calgary has some particu lar concerns. It has to be brought out that when young professors come to the university, it's very hard for them because of the very high rent they have to pay now.

It's almost impossible for them to buy their own homes. Also at the present time some of them are caught in the squeeze of having their mortgages renewed. This means there will be a very high increase in the per cent of their mortgage payments. One of the major problems the pro fessors tell us of relates specifically to housing.

Surely we could be looking abroad at countries where there is some type of subsidy; that a proposal could come from the university to the Minister of Housing and Public Works and then there would be some money available to subsi dize the accommodation so that we can retain and con tinue to hire the finest professors across the country.

April 27, 1981 ALBERTA HANSARD 341 As I said, the issue is very broad and difficult, because so many things have come to light at the present time. While we have to be concerned about the departments in the university that have professors going into private practice, as I mentioned before, generally there are very many conscientious professors right across the different departments. I've had presentations from faculty mem bers in the departments of Engineering, Psychology, Bi ology, and English. I think that certainly shows a general unrest throughout all the departments.

I would also like the minister to address the specific question of why there is a different funding level for the different universities. I think this is a very hard question to address to people. One of the other issues that I trust the minister would also comment on would be the overall plan that is going to be available for Mount Royal College. I realize that the college is not in my riding, and I hope the Member for Calgary Currie will forgive me for raising this issue. But I've had it brought to my attention that a long-range plan has been developed for Mount Royal College.

While I certainly commend the minister for the many programs that are going to the colleges across Alberta, it seems we haven't heard Mount Royal College mentioned since I've been in this Legislature. So I would like to know exactly where the overall plan is, and in working in conjunction with the Department of Advanced Education and Man power, what they actually see as the role of Mount Royal College in the city of Calgary. I think it has a unique role to play, and it differs from some of the smaller centres that have colleges.

I believe the minister stated in his opening statements that those colleges will have a high priority on their technical pro grams. As members of the Legislature know, we have our own technical institution in the city of Calgary. It's just a question of whether Mount Royal College will remain the same size it is now or, because they are being constantly asked to increase the new programs that might be offered there, they're certainly going to need funding for those different programs. I also understand that we have a very beautiful build ing at Mount Royal College.

It was a unique conceptual plan when it was built but apparently does not lend itself totally to the needs of the students and faculty at the college. Apparently some of the classrooms are as large as to accommodate 100 students. While this may be appro priate for university courses, I guess it has some restric tions for some of the courses offered at Mount Royal College. So I would appreciate very much if the minister would also tell us what the plans are for Mount Royal College. Thank you. MR. HIEBERT: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to raise some concerns or questions in regard to the overall plan insofar as attracting competent tradesmen or individuals from business and industry to the institutions. We have well-established and highly recognized institutions such as NAIT and SAIT, but now that we have the new technical institute on stream, I would like to know what the overall plans are for ensuring that we attract the appropriate people to the various positions that will be open at the new institution and, for that matter, the older ones.

What economic incentives are in place, and can we attract people from business and industry? Are the scholarships sufficient to retrain these people? Are there ways to at tract them so their wage scales and economic benefits are on par with business and industry? Can we ensure the supply, because we all know that the key to the effective ness of the program will be staff related. I would like to know what the overall plan is in this regard. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Would the minister care to respond? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Chairman, if I could continue, having answered the hon.

Member for Olds-Didsbury with respect to the Olds College learning resource centre. I should perhaps respond to the other issue raised by him because it was more in the nature of a supplementary question with regard to college capital funding. Of course there will have to be a substantial capital expenditure over the next several years if we are to have the new technical institution on stream by 1984. My understanding is that when the institution was first an nounced a year ago, we anticipated that the expenditure would be in the neighborhood of $39 million.

That was based on the understanding that in the neighborhood of 1,000 students would be enrolled initially. However, sev eral suggestions have been made that we should indeed plan for a much larger institution, perhaps as high as 3,000. If that were to be the case, of course much more would be expended by way of capital funds. Of course I don't think the treatment would affect the colleges system insofar as, in terms of the budgeting, there is normally a breakdown between universities, col leges, and technical or vocational institutions.

So I would anticipate that while there may be a considerable capital expense, I'm confident it will not have a deleterious effect on the other funding that will be required. I certainly will do my very best to endeavor that that does not occur. Nevertheless, we will have to plan each fiscal year as it comes, and I'm sure all hon. members will agree that we do need the third institution, that we have to get it under way as quickly as possible, and that we will be able to accommodate that institution's growth along with the other growth needed in the entire system.

I should point out to hon. members that the depart ment received in excess of 55 different capital requests from the entire system. Many of those are being met; others of course could not all be accommodated. I'm sure all of those submitted this year will be back again, and perhaps more, and we will give them careful considera tion in future years. On the subject of professors' salaries at colleges and universities, I just want to restate what I said in the budget speech.

We have boards of governors whose income for institutions depends on government grants, tuition fees and, in some cases, other income, whether investment, or from endowments, special chairs, and that type of thing. We are trying to encourage more private sector involvement in the postsecondary system. When making the grants, of course our government has to be cognizant of certain factors. We have to be aware of a level of settlements that have been arrived at by the negotiating process between the boards of governors and their staff associations in previous years.

We have to be aware of this inflationary factor, and we also have to be aware of elements that are unusual. In this particular year we have tried to accommodate some of the unusual fac tors such as increases in utilities and increases with regard to materials of a specialized nature which have to be purchased for these institutions, many of which originate outside the country and have been adversely impacted as a result of some federal tax measures which I find very distressing. In fact the universities and colleges are now having to pay an additional excise tax as a result of the

342 ALBERTA HANSARD April 27, 1981 federal government having changed some of the rules. I don't like that very much and have made representations on that to federal governments. However, we must keep in mind that in the fiscal year just ended, the increase to institutions was 9.5 per cent overall. In this current fiscal year the base increase is 13.1 per cent. That is very, very high, much higher than the previous year; in fact it is a good deal higher than that grant increase on the base which has been provided in our neighboring provinces and other provinces in Canada.

In addition, in order to recognize the particular concerns identified by the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury and the hon. Member for Calgary North West, the special facul ties are receiving special treatment in this budget in the sense that we are directing funds toward professional faculties enhancement. An additional $1 million has been granted at the University of Calgary without any strings attached to accommodate general growth. That is a very substantial increase in the case of the University of Cal gary.

So we are directing these funds to the universities without strings attached, but on the understanding that because they have asked for those funds, they will direct them to the faculties which require, if you will, some special attention and treatment. Mr. Chairman, that's as far as the government and I as a minister wish to go in terms of allocating directly to faculties within the institutions.

I should point out that $810,000 was allocated in that particular portion last year when we attempted this for the first time at the University of Alberta, and we were very pleased indeed with the allocations made by the board of governors in consulta tion with their general faculties council. That, of course, is what we are attempting to do again this year. I would like to comment briefly on the matter raised by the hon.

Member for Olds-Didsbury, in the sense that this demonstration came forward the day after the budg et, before the faculty association had had any opportunity whatsoever of assessing the special attention paid in the budget toward those particular areas of their concern. I hesitate indeed to get involved in comparing faculty sa laries, because it is very, very difficult to do. From looking at Statistics Canada figures, we know that on an average faculties at the University of Alberta are the second highest in Canada. The fourth highest in Canada are at the University of Calgary.

But that's an almost meaningless figure when one comes to comparing the different levels within institutions, the different periods professors or staff have been in the faculty, and so on. Suffice it to say that it does give a fairly clear indication that the boards of governors have been responding fairly adequately towards concerns of how much salaries are to be allocated within the institutions. But I strongly believe that it is the role of the boards of governors operating within the funds available to them to negotiate with their faculty associations in such a way that fairness is achieved.

In the case of each institution there is a collective bargaining process. That collective bargaining process is in the midst of negotiations. Nego tiations are under way at the present time. In my under standing, none of the collective bargaining procedures has been followed to its conclusion, which would indicate the level of salaries which might be involved in the current year. So it's very difficult to become involved as a government in the middle of those negotiations. Each institution has its own process.

At the University of Alberta there is a final offer selection process, and at the University of Calgary a binding arbitration process. It would be quite improper for me to say what percentage I think should be involved in the final decision. Whether they go to arbitration or settle at the table is one thing, and that's why I was somewhat concerned to hear an expression of specific percentages in the committee today, because the process is now under way. The final steps to resolve the differences between the parties have not been taken.

Therefore I really am concerned that the govern ment not say we think a settlement should be in this range, because that might indeed have a considerable influence upon the final outcome, be it the arbitrators for a final decision, if it goes that far, or in the case of final selection if it goes to that process.

I don't want to comment further than that, except to say that whether or not professors in certain stress faculties, or faculties such as those that have been identified today, should receive more than professors in faculties where the pressure is not as great is surely a matter which must be settled within the institutions themselves. I know that in some institu tions special consideration is being given to matters such as extra bonuses or special housing subsidies directly by the institutions themselves. But I must say, Mr.

Chair man, that I would reject any notion that my department or the government itself should pay special subsidies directly to any individuals with respect to their housing costs. If that is to be done, it will be done as a result of negotiations between the institutions and their staff associations. Still dealing with the subject of boards of governors, because they have a very important role to play, I could indicate to the hon.

Member for Olds-Didsbury that some of the questions he posed with respect to the boards of governors for SAIT, NAIT, and the new institution should await the Bill which will be introduced later in the session. Perhaps I could then deal with those subjects in a more appropriate way. I would say, though, that it is the intention to provide for boards of governors. As to their composition, numbers, and so on, those will have to await introduction of the Bill. I want to see, in terms of sort of how and when . . . I think the how

part in the case of both those institutions could initially at any rate very well be the subject of advertising and a request by government for nominations from the general public. Although that has not yet been decided, it might be advisable in this particular instance. As to when, certainly as soon as the legislation is passed by this Assembly.

Assuming that that occurs, I would want to start the procedure of obtaining a board of governors so they can assist in the transition period, which is going to be very, very significant and full of all kinds of problems not yet identified but which I'm sure will be there. I appreciate the comments on other matters raised re lating to the Alberta Heritage Scholarship Fund. I think they do not require a specific response in my remarks.

With regard to Mount Royal College, of course it is getting to the point now where it is almost full in terms of its capacity to handle the number of students for which it was originally designed. I think the hon. Member for Calgary North West pointed out some of the difficulties inherent in the design of the building, which was consid ered to be experimental in nature when it was designed. I guess when an experiment proves to be not entirely suc cessful, the costs of trying to rectify the experiment become very, very high indeed.

I should point out that during the past year I've had discussions with the board of governors and the adminis tration at that institution, in which we reviewed the request for phase two of the institution and the possibility

April 27, 1981 ALBERTA HANSARD 343 of rather than moving to phase two, trying to 'infill' — that's the term that was used — the space there now so it could accommodate an increased student enrolment. It wasn't until March of this year that I was formally advised by the board that that option had been dropped and they no longer wished to have government, in co operation with them, consider trying to renovate the in terior of the institution in such a way as to accommodate more students. At the same time of course other options have been raised with me by members of the board of governors.

Those relate to the possibility of establishing elsewhere in the city of Calgary another campus similar to Grant MacEwan college, where there are three major campuses, in the city of Edmonton. That is an option they have now raised with me. As well, there's an interesting observation — it's very informal yet, but has been raised — as to the possibility of the Alberta Vocational Centre in Calgary forming part of the institution, thus providing a different type of service. So at the present time I'm in a difficult position to say to the Assembly which direction we will follow.

I can assure members of the committee that we are going to very carefully pursue with the board of gover nors at Mount Royal where we will move to ensure that that institution provides that type of service that is in its mandate. Of course in cities such as Calgary or Edmon ton, the colleges provide that level of service between universities and technical institutions such as SAIT and NAIT. Therefore it's a very wide range of services and has to be very flexible. So those are very important concerns. I trust that that mention of Mount Royal will at the moment satisfy hon. members who have raised the question.

With respect to ensuring that we attract people to our institutions and provide economic incentives to attract people from business and industry, I assume the hon. Member for Edmonton Gold Bar was referring to the staff rather than the students. Therefore that is something I want to address. It really relates back to the other issues of how we attract and retain people in specialty faculties, but I think it is addressed in the broader sense.

Of course we have been attempting to do that by ensuring that the level of funding for our postsecondary education in this province is at the highest possible level in comparison to other provinces. I think that is certainly true in this particular budget this year. The difficulty we have is knowing how institutions themselves and boards of governors direct their policies with the management of funds supplied to them by government and are able to go into the market place for faculty members. What is the market place?

The market place consists of academia and other Canadian institu tions or institutions outside Canada. That is really where most comparisons have taken place with respect to wage and salary levels. In that respect we have to try to ensure that we are comparable to other institutions in Canada. As far as attracting people from business and industry, that becomes somewhat more difficult, particularly in an overheated economy such as we have been experiencing in Alberta in the past several years.

There I think the boards have to rely on other features of employment in postsecondary education, such as educational leave op portunities or sabbaticals. They have to rely on the fact that in total months of employment the academic year is somewhat less than the private sector experiences. In most institutions the teaching year runs from the begin ning of September to the end of April, which leaves other times in the year for upgrading one's educational ex perience and so on, and affords some opportunity for such matters as private consulting.

Most faculty contracts permit a degree of consulting income to individuals. In some cases, I understand, up to two months' additional income per year may be earned from that experience. In addition, extra teaching opportunities are available at summer sessions. If faculty members engage in those, they are paid in addition to what they would otherwise receive. Some institutions have introduced housing subsi dies of one kind or another and have some form of bonus system for faculties which, as I say, are regarded as specialty faculties in that it is difficult to attract people. Mr.

Chairman, I do not believe it is fair to say that we as the government of this province have an overall plan by which we direct institutions to attract people. As I have indicated, we try to provide adequate funding. In deed, in most cases it has been very successful to have the boards of governors design programs in co-operation with their faculty which will attract the best possible academic staff to serve the institutions. I think I've now dealt with the questions raised, and I welcome comments or questions on the votes that now take place. MR. R. CLARK: Mr.

Chairman, as a result of the minister's comments, might I pursue two areas just a bit further. One is this question of capital allocation. I wonder what the minister's reaction would be to the proposition of whether the Stony Plain site is going to be for 1,000 or 3,000 students. The figures the minister used were approximately $40 million for 1,000 students, if I could just ballpark it that way. Mr.

Minister, it seems to me, on the surface anyway and not knowing all the background, that there'd be a real advantage in putting a lump figure on the cost for the Stony Plain college — whether it's going to be $40 million or, if it comes to be a facility for 3,000 students, multiplied by 3, it may be $120 million — and then doing the same kind of thing the government attempts to do with hospitals and a variety of other areas in the course of simply saying, that will then go up for inflation or whatever that kind of indexed figure is.

It seems to me that if that was considered, it would go at least some distance in allaying some of the fears in the colleges and the technical institutions about this question of the sapping away of capital funds. Another proposal I put forward, Mr. Minister — and I know it's used in one or two other provinces; I think Ontario is now using it — is an arrangement where we have a five-year rolling capital budget so we get away from the kind of peaks and valleys situation.

As I as an MLA see the capital budget for colleges and universities, I assume, and I'd be pleased to be straightened out if I'm wrong, that the Treasury Board approves a lump sum of so many millions of dollars for capital. Then the depart ment people break it down into how much for universi ties, colleges, NAIT, and SAIT — that kind of arrange ment.

It seems to me that it would lend a lot more stabili ty in the institutions if in fact they knew there was going to be, let's say, $20 million a year for colleges for the four or five years, and that could be a kind of rolling thing; and the same kind of thing for the technical institutes and the universities. Now there may be that kind of informal arrangement worked out between the department and the various insti tutions. But two things that would do is get away from a kind of peaks and valleys situation that can develop.

I suppose I'd be less than frank if I didn't say that then the department and the minister are in the position of having

344 ALBERTA HANSARD April 27, 1981 a longer term commitment from the standpoint of the Treasury Board and so on. It certainly makes it far easier for the department to plan for capital projects. Have those kinds of propositions been explored? If there are some pretty negative sides to it, I'd be interested in hearing what they are. MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Chairman, each capital project is considered individually. There is no specific amount pro vided to each of the systems within the overall system of Advanced Education and Manpower.

I'd have some de gree of concern about trying to do that, because it may very well be that in one particular fiscal year the universi ties may require more for the commencement of new buildings and capital projects than the colleges. I would think that if we were to do that, it might indeed very much stretch out the time period to get some projects on stream.

I really feel that the idea, while it might have some merit, would need further exploration as to how it would work without at the same time locking the de partment into a spending program which may not be flexible enough to accommodate things such as this new technical institution. For example, say the technical institution

section had an allotment of $30 million a year for a five-year period. That might prevent any new capital projects coming on stream. So I think the present system of taking a look each year at the priorities identified by the institutions, and then identified by my department as being the priori ties, and taking them for consideration and review is the best one we have available to us at the moment. MR. R.

CLARK: I think the minister's reaction is the same to the idea of putting up a lump sum for the development of the Stony Plain technical institute: that the minister is not the least bit favorably inclined to the idea, whether it's going to be $40 million or $120 million when the student numbers are arrived at. Certainly from the standpoint of the Assembly and the committee, if we could have some kind of figure knowing what we're looking at, it makes the work of the committee far, far more meaningful. I don't share the minister's concern about the other matter, but I'll drop that for now.

But specifically with regard to the Stony Plain technical school: does the minister have the same rigidity there? MR. HORSMAN: No, Mr. Speaker. I'm sorry, I should have responded to that. I think it's fair to say that at this time I'm not in the position to provide that figure, because what we have in this year's budget is a planning figure so that we may acquire — I think there's land acquisition and planning in this year's budget for that particular institution, and much of it is in Housing and Public Works.

But when the transition of a board for the institution comes on, then there would be a transition in which the final estimates will be arrived at. Of course when a decision is finally recommended to the govern ment, we will come up with a figure and say, it will be for so many students, and we expect that the total fund we will ask to be voted by the Legislature will be X number of dollars. So we expect that to happen. But at this particular budget I can't do that. MR. BORSTAD: I was going to wait for the vote, Mr. Chairman, but my comments are fairly general. I thought I might bring them up now.

The Grande Prairie Regional College continues to grow and expand. When the student residences approved by the minister last year are com pleted, they will considerably improve those facilities. I'd also like to commend and thank the minister for his recent announcement on nursing training proposed for the Grande Prairie Regional College, which will assist the nursing shortage in northern Alberta. I also appreciate the extension of the apprenticeship courses which are being carried out at the Grande Prairie college in con junction with Fairview College.

I believe the Northern Alberta Development Council bursary fund has been very successful over the years. This is sponsored by the council. Since its beginning, over 500 students have received assistance from the fund. This year another 138 students received assistance. For those years of assistance, the student is required to return one year of service to the north in his or her profession.

We think this is a very worth-while program, and I would urge the minister to increase that annual allotment in order to accommodate some of the other students who have been applying and we've had to turn down because of lack of funds. MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to congratulate the minister on what I think is a very exciting initiative: that of the consortia concept, which extends postsecond- ary educational opportunities to rural Albertans. I wond er if the minister might comment to the committee on how he anticipates these consortia will operate.

I know the people in the Crowsnest Pass area are very excited by the establishment of one to serve that area. He might elaborate on how the consortium will operate, how the local advisory boards will relate to the formal boards of the consortia, and what he anticipates in terms of operat ing and capital funding for these projects in the province in the current year. MR. HORSMAN: In reply to the hon. Member for Grande Prairie, Mr. Chairman, I thank him for the compliments with respect to the developments which are taking place there.

I too look forward particularly, it's fair to say, to the new approach with regard to nursing education in the north. I know that will be welcome in Grande Prairie and all of northwestern Alberta, and in the case of Keyano in northeastern Alberta. So we're taking some very positive steps in that direction. I must say I'm also pleased he has commented on the apprentice ship co-operation with Fairview College. I really know that the boards of governors have done a lot working together towards getting over some rough spots. I appre ciate the fact that they've been very co-operative.

With regard to the bursary fund, additional funding is provided in this year's budget, and perhaps we can come to it again when we get to the subject of Vote 4. The Students Finance Board has directed some questions to ensuring that the elements mentioned by the hon. Mem ber for Grande Prairie are carried out. That is to say that the students who achieve the assistance in fact return their services to the north in subsequent years. I think that especially has been of concern. I hope it will not continue to be. We can iron out some of those matters.

But some additional funds are made available in this year's budget for that particular element. If I can come to it, I can indicate that the increase is from $2,500 to $3,500 for single students, and from $4,000 to $5,000 for married students. In terms of the increase, we are trying to recog nize that particular element. With regard to the questions raised by the hon. Member for Pincher Creek-Crowsnest, I think the con sortium concept is going to be an exciting new challenge.

April 27, 1981 ALBERTA HANSARD 345 At the present time we have officially opened two, in Peace River and the Yellowhead. The others are com mencing their operations. The local advisory committees will be determining the type of programming they want to see in the regions. They will then contract with the indi vidual institutions that offer the programs for the consor tium and administer the funds through those institutions.

Therefore it becomes a little difficult for me to break out the amounts of capital and operating for each consortium without going through the colleges, universities, and technical institutions budgets separately. The hon. mem ber has posed a bit of a difficult question for me. I shall try to get that information. Perhaps when we get to the individual votes of the institutions and so on, we might come back to that question. 1 — Departmental Support Services MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, I have three questions I'd like to ask on Vote 1.

Perhaps I might pose them now and then get the answer before we're finished the vote. On page 37 of the estimates book, under 1.0.4., $100,000 was not spent on planning and research last year. I notice the amount is about up to where it was last year in the estimates. I'd be interested in knowing what didn't hap pen that was planned to happen, that found us in the situation where $100,000 wasn't spent. Under Vote 1.0.2, I see there's a 10 per cent increase in budget estimates for the minister's committees from last year's estimates.

To be accurate with last year's alloca tion, the estimates of last year were short about $67,000, or 37 per cent more than forecast. Why were the esti mates short so much last year? From the activity that's going on now, if one looks at the estimates, there's about a 35 per cent decrease in committee work this year. The third area would be the small item on the question of fixed assets up some 53 per cent. It's not a huge amount of money, but I'm just interested in knowing what's involved there. I notice there are 151 new positions in the department.

Could we get not a breakdown area by area, but simply a precise indication as to what areas in the department those new people will be assuming responsibility. MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Chairman, dealing with a sum mary of full-time positions we are adding, first of all, with regard to Vote 1, departmental support services: seven positions. Vote 2, assistance to higher and further educa tional institutions: 95 positions. Those relate to additional staff at SAIT, NAIT, and vocational centres in particular. Of course that accounts for the lion's share of the in crease.

Thirty-three with regard to Vote 3, manpower development and training assistance, relates primarily to increases in apprenticeship staff in the manpower divi sion. Vote No. 4: 17 additional staff members for the Student Finance Board to account for the level of addi tional staff required to administer the Alberta Heritage Scholarship Fund, and to account for the increase in volume with respect to the new programs introduced with respect to the equalization and maintenance grants we introduced in previous years. Those are the totals.

Of course each year we have a fairly large number of new staff added to the provincially administered institutions. But once those institutions become board governed, I hope those positions will all be eliminated from my votes. Now, with regard to other questions. I'm not sure I got all the questions, but I will try to answer them. A decrease is shown in the minister's committees. They are less than the forecast for the same general reasons, be cause they were non-recurring expenditures in the last fiscal year.

If one compares the estimates to the estimates, there is an increase, but in fact last year there were some non-recurring expenses with respect to the committees. I think there was a similar question with respect to planning and research. This fund has been underspent historically. However, in order to retain adequate re search capabilities, we are making them equal to the estimates for last year. We're not asking for more.

Re search projects this year will include studies of manpower and training requirements; demographic projections for small centres; and the impact of megaprojects on training needs, particularly with regard to enrolment forecasting. Those are the areas that we want to pay particular atten tion to that did not get dealt with in the previous budget. I think that covers three of the four questions. Perhaps I missed one of the questions raised by the hon. member. I'm sorry. MR. R. CLARK: Mr.

Chairman, the other question dealt with the purchase of fixed assets, which is an increase of about $70,000 under object of expenditure. But I would go back, Mr. Minister. In dealing with the answer we received on minister's committees, I concede that the estimates this year are not too much above the estimates for last year. But I'd like to know what commit tees are being disbanded, and what isn't being done this year that was done last year?

I have a feeling it may be the planning for the Stony Plain facility, but if it isn't — and I see the minister shaking his head like it isn't — I'd be pleased to know what change is there. MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Chairman, those committees primarily relate to committees directly accountable to my office. Those are such things as the manpower advisory council, the minister's advisory committees on colleges, universities, technical institutions, student affairs, further education, and technical and vocational education.

When I refer to non-recurring expenditures last year, part of the non-recurring expenditures are related to the advertising which we carried out very extensively throughout the province with respect to obtaining membership on those committees. That advertising will not be required this year because the committee appointments were made for two-year terms, and that is a non-recurring expense I identified earlier. Those committees expend funds by tra velling throughout the province, holding meetings in in stitutions and communities throughout Alberta.

That's really the type of committee involved there, and does not include the committee referred to by the hon. member with respect to planning the new technical institution because that was provided for under planning funds for that institution. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, to the minister. To be very precise, are we to assume that basically the reason for the reduction of approximately $50,000 from the fore cast for 1980-81 to the estimates for 1981-1982 is all in advertising? MR.

HORSMAN: A very major part of that was in fact related to advertising for the committee members, but it is anticipated that perhaps there may not be as much travel for all the committees. A good deal of that was raised. I can't give the hon. member the exact amount spent on advertising, but it was extensive. I'll seek that information and provide it to the hon. member.

346 ALBERTA HANSARD April 27, 1981 Agreed to: 1.0.1 — Minister's Office $179,972 1.0.2 — Minister's Committees $218,260 1.0.3 — General Administration $7,353,407 1.0.4 — Planning and Research $400,000 Total Vote 1 — Departmental Support Services $8,151,639 2 — Assistance to Higher and Further Educational Institutions MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, a number of questions on this particular vote, primarily with regard to the supplementary estimates of expenditure.

Under Vote 2.1.2 — page 6 in the element book — new course development is receiving an over 400 per cent increase from the forecast of $4.2 million to $16.2 million. Per haps that would be a good place to start the discussion. MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Chairman, in regard to the new course development, hon. members are aware that on February 19 this year I announced that 113 new courses would be instituted throughout the province at various universities, colleges, and technical and vocational institu tions. On that day a news release came out in which we indicated that the additional cost would be $19 million.

Now there were elements there of funds made available in other ways and under new course development, but pri marily it was by new course development at the various institutions. I trust that the hon. member doesn't want me to read off a list of 113 new courses. MR. R. CLARK: The first hundred would be fine. MR. HORSMAN: The first hundred. I'll be glad to supply a list to all members of the Assembly. As a matter of fact, they were all attached to the news release.

But of course they were all developed in consultation with boards of governors at their request, and we paid particu lar emphasis to university programs in areas such as speech pathology, public management, and some engi neering courses. In particular co-operative engineering at the University of Alberta was one of the largest items. I think almost $600,000 had been asked for by that faculty through their board of governors. That particular ele ment, 2.1.2, really relates to those courses I announced back in February. Some of those were dealt with by a special warrant last year.

We had to get the funds availa ble to the institutions of course, so they could start their planning, acquire the staff, and so on for the next academic year which starts in September. So those are the various elements involved in that particular news release. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, just following along. Mr. Minister, that leads into the next area. You make re ference to the special warrant raised by the Executive Council a while back.

Is it the minister's expectation that this budget includes sufficient flexibility to enable the minister to deal with the call for new programs in various institutions during the course of this budget year? Or should members be looking at another special warrant for new program needs of, let's say, the same magnitude as the special warrant that came down the pike some months back. What I'm really trying to get a handle on here is: can we expect that this budget adequately covers the expected needs of the department, and we shouldn't have to be looking for a sizable special warrant?

Now as I said last Thursday, I can appreciate that there are occasions when a program is oversubscribed and a special warrant has to be raised to deal with that kind of thing. But are we looking at those kinds of special warrants, if any, or in fact the sizable special warrants we saw last year? I want to make the points before the minister rises in his place. It isn't a question of not basically supporting many of the programs which were approved, but it becomes a matter of whether this Assembly deals with the question before the matter is dealt with or after the fact. MR. HORSMAN: Mr.

Chairman, in terms of the size and number of special warrants related to my depart ment, they were relatively few in number and not of immense magnitude. Of course one of the elements in volved with my department really relates to a special warrant, based on assessment each spring and fall, which has been the tradition of the needs for the priority employment programs and summer temporary employ ment programs. So those indeed were special warrants, not directly related to this vote but rather to manpower development.

Most of the new programs requested by institutions were in fact covered by that announcement in February of this year. I would be quite surprised to have a similar approach this current year, unless institutions come forward with programming requests which I can't anticipate at this time. I would have to say that in general I'd be surprised to see us coming forward with those types of requests. In addition, I should point out that within the votes, in a service element, there is some flexibility to provincially- administered institutions, public colleges, private colleges, and universities.

Those represent basically designated appropriations which were not yet allocated to specific institutions at the time the estimates book was printed, but do include some element of operating funds where a provision has been made to accommodate trades and technology training costs which may be incurred, and other things such as some allocation for actual needs when they're identified. I should say that those elements should take care of any unanticipated or unforeseen demands which may occur prior to September of this year.

So the answer in general is no, in the next fiscal year we don't expect to have to raise to any substantial degree new course development funds by special warrant. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, following along on that matter. Dealing specifically with Vote 2.1.2, new course development, what portion of that $16 million is already allocated, as opposed to what portion is there as — I was going to use the term "slush fund", but perhaps that wouldn't be fair — funds the minister will have discretion with in approving courses between now and the end of March? MR. HORSMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I believe it is all basi cally allocated. MR. D. ANDERSON: Mr. Chairman, my comments are specifically with respect to Mount Royal College. First, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Calgary North West for bringing up many points which are of concern to that college and the people who depend on it. I would like to say that some hope was given by the minister in his statement that he would pursue vigorously over the next year a number of options with respect to expansion.

April 27, 1981 ALBERTA HANSARD 347 I would like to say, though, that in the comment that the college is almost full, I must have attended those classes which have gone considerably past that point. The crowds in those classes I've attended have been well over what I would consider full. At this point I've spent two years in the Legislature, asking each year about this particular expansion plan; each year taking a look at the direction that's required, and hoping I would see in the budget estimates the money needed for that kind of expansion. I am sorry that hasn't progressed this year.

I expect those undertakings will indeed result in some ac tion next year and, personally, as the MLA for the region, will be most unhappy if we don't have some result at that time. In a very general sense, I believe that Mount Royal College is serving a particular purpose in this province in trying to help diversify the needs of the economy through its graduates. We have to service an extra 3,000-odd people per month moving into Calgary, many of whom require the services of such a college.

In terms of our long-range diversification plans and the need to deal with the difficulties we have in our society because of our particular growth pattern now, I think those expansion plans must proceed very quickly in one way or another. I hope that next year I will be able to stand here and congratulate the minister on having moved in a very definitive way toward accomplishing those ends. MRS. CRIPPS: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to indicate to the minister how pleased I am with the establishment of the consortia in the rural parts of Alberta that did not formerly have access to local secondary academic and vocational programs. I'd like to ask the minister which vote in the budget that's included in, and maybe to give a brief explanation of how it's included in that budget, if he would. MR. STROMBERG: Mr. Chairman, the announcement in the throne speech of, I believe, an $800 million match ing grant . . . MR. HORSMAN: $80 million. MR. STROMBERG: Oh. I didn't think you were quite that generous.

I have no qualms with the $80 million matching grant, which I've spoken to you privately about, but what that matching grant has done to the several private colleges in Alberta that have in the past asked for and received no grants for capital expansion.

It's under stood that the state and the private colleges are separate, but these colleges that are now going out for fund raising for capital projects, such as Camrose Lutheran College with a very ambitious $11,700,000 fund raising drive, find it extremely difficult to acquire donations, when a busi ness, company, or individual will say, well, if I give my donation to your private college, to your fund, it's going to be matched by the province. What this has effectively done to Camrose Lutheran College and Union College at Lacombe is just cut the feet out from under them for all hope of any future expansion.

Our private colleges have a definite place in Alberta, especially CLC in Camrose. It's our major industry. It's an institution that was started way back in the early teens. I would like to hear the minister's comments. Has he given consideration that somehow, instead of getting into funding the colleges on capital development, maybe we could help them when they're building, say, for their library fund or science equipment, and fund them in another way. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Would the minister care to respond to the various questions? MR. HORSMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

With regard to Mount Royal, I really must repeat to the Member for Calgary Currie what I said very briefly to the hon. Member for Calgary North West. I have to know with some degree of precision exactly which option the college board wishes to pursue with respect to a further expan sion of that institution. I really must know that. I repeat, shortly after assuming office I was presented with a plan for a phase two on the site. Subsequent to that time, I was asked to withhold approval while they reviewed the possibility of that 'infilling' of the existing space.

It was not until March that I received formal advice that they no longer wished to pursue that approach. Obviously that made it impossible to pursue expansion during this budg et. Since then I've had further discussions, in which we've identified some further options to expand the capabilities of Mount Royal. We will review those very carefully with the board of governors in regard to the next budget year. With regard to the subject of consortia, as I indicated earlier to the hon. member, it's a little difficult to identify that in the votes. Perhaps I could just give it this way.

The consortia are going to be funded through the colleges administering the funds. That's where the moneys are found, in the vote for each of the consortia. Perhaps I could do it this way. Through Fairview College, the North Peace educational consortium this year will receive a one-time grant of $55,000 and, for the college year '81-82, $220,000, for a total payment in the college fiscal year of $275,000. You have to keep in mind that this is a little confusing because the college fiscal year does not correspond to the university's fiscal year; it runs July 1 to June 30.

So it creates a bit of a problem in getting the figures allocated. I will just give you these figures on the basis of the college fiscal year. Through Grant MacEwan we will be administering the Yellowhead consortium, a grant of $50,000 plus $200,000, for a total of $250,000 in the college fiscal year. For the Drayton Valley consortium, $160,000 in the college fiscal year. Lethbridge Community College will administer the program for the Crowsnest Pass-Pincher Creek consor tium, once again $160,000. Olds College will administer the Big Country consortium in the Drumheller region.

That will receive a one-time grant for the period April to June 1981, $52,000 plus $210,000 in the college year, for a total payment in the college year of $262,000. The total for the coming college fiscal year therefore is $1,107,000 for consortia. For 1981-82, however, which is only 75 per cent of the college fiscal year, the total we have in the budget is $870,000. With regard to the question of the 1980s advanced education endowment fund and its impact on private colleges, I wish to indicate to the hon.

Member for Camrose that I recognize the concern he expressed, ex cept that I can't quite agree with his allegation that it will totally undermine the fund-raising capabilities of private colleges. Donations may deprive the colleges because people who wish to donate have all the tax advantages that are available to those who wish to donate to the public system. After all, these are religious institutions owned by religious bodies, and it is difficult to justify the expenditure of public funds for the capital of those reli gious institutions.

348 ALBERTA HANSARD April 27, 1981 However, we recognize that a very important role is to be played by private, religious institutions such as col leges, and we ensure that the per pupil grant, the operat ing grant, tries to correspond at least roughly to the grants provided to the public institutions. But at this time I cannot indicate to members of the Assembly that the government has made a decision to provide direct capital funding to institutions that would become the property of private, religious institutions.

I think that has been the policy of this government since 1905, and to change it now would require a very clear understanding of the implications of such a move. MR. STROMBERG: Mr. Chairman, the minister did not answer my last question. I believe private colleges recog nize the separation of church and state, but in effectively slamming the door shut on these private colleges . . . Considerable individuals will be donating funds for capi tal projects, but they have to go out to the Stelcos, the Imperial Oils, the large institutions and companies in the province.

When the director of a large company can double the value of his donation through your endow ment fund, doesn't it make more sense that he go that route instead of the 100 per cent? And since our govern ment has in the last five or six years seen fit to increase the amount of student grant and to encourage these colleges to go to full degree-granting colleges like Union and CLC, perhaps we could help them out in an indirect manner — they're shut out from a lot of the institutional or company donations — through perhaps funding for libraries or science equipment.

Has the minister given consideration to that avenue? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Chairman, as I've indicated, the whole subject of capital, whether for buildings or capital acquisitions of other kinds, is still a very serious issue that has not yet been determined. I'm prepared to discuss it with the institutions and with my colleagues in govern ment, but at the present time we just have not reached the conclusion that it is appropriate to provide public funds which then become the property of individual religious bodies. So that is where we are.

I should say, though, that in terms of those funds, those people wishing to donate to private institutions receive the same credit to their com pany in terms of tax benefits and so on as one does in donating to a public institution. It's true that the govern ment will match the funds, but that in no way enhances the company's tax position. It just provides more funding for the institution rather than for the individual donor. I regret that I'm not in a position to indicate that we can move any further in the direction the hon. member would like us to, but we will certainly review it.

I want to say that I would not like to leave members with the impression that this government has encouraged degree granting by private colleges. Let us say that we have been trying to respond to their requests to have degree-granting privileges. That of course is still under negotiation between the colleges and the universities directly involved, with which they have affiliation agree ments at the present time. MR. STROMBERG: One last supplementary, Mr. Chairman. Would the minister, as an individual, consider giving a personal gift of, say, $10,000 or $15,000 to the CLC building fund? MR. HORSMAN: Mr.

Chairman, that is hardly a matter for the Committee of Supply. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to pose two or three further questions to the minister. Mr. Minister, with regard to Vote 2.1.6, I notice that federally funded pro grams are up 139 per cent in the estimates. What is the significance of this, the federal manpower policy situation being what is today? Then could I move along to Vote 2.2.2, with regard primarily to the NAIT budget. I noticed last year that the budget was overexpended by some 20 per cent, and then the budget this year is only 2 per cent greater than the forecast for last year.

I'd appreciate some explanation there, because as I understand the relationship between the forecasts and the budget for this year, looking specifi cally at NAIT, albeit the estimates were out quite a bit last year, there was a 20 per cent overrun there. I assume that's where a portion of that $20 million special warrant was spent. What we're saying is that there's only going to be a 2 per cent increase in NAlT's operating budget from April 1 this year until the end of March next year.

That would seem to me to be somewhat difficult to pull off, unless we're going to reduce the number of staff, the number of students, or something. How in fact do we plan to do that? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, with regard to the fed erally funded programs, this is an estimate based on specific recoveries, and not all federally supported costs are included in this element. For example, apprenticeship training is under technical institutes and public colleges. As I say, that is an estimate of what we expect to recover. At this time I can't give much more than that in the way of details.

Perhaps I could try to get some more specific information for the hon. member. With regard to the subject of NAIT, I take it the hon. member was referring to 2.2.2? MR. R. CLARK: Yes. MR. HORSMAN: The NAIT and SAIT budgets are based upon careful estimates relating to what we know to be the settlements that have been arrived at within the institutions and will therefore take us up until the end of the next fiscal year with regard to salaries. That is in fact how that is arrived at, not involving any additional new programming there that hasn't already been included.

So it is faced on what we know to be the expenses which will flow from the settlements which have occurred between the government, the support staff, and the faculty at those institutions. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Minister, did I understand that answer correctly: that this includes the new programs that have been approved for NAIT and SAIT this year? Because if it does, if you take into consideration the very small increase, I would assume those programs are now in operation. Does this in fact say there will be no new programs starting September 1 next year? MR. HORSMAN: No, Mr. Speaker.

Those are included in the element we have announced that we discussed earlier, and are included in the other vote: 2.1.2, new course development. I can perhaps find those. In addition to the amount you see there, the new programming at NAIT is $310,000, and involves programming, new heavy- equipment operator apprentice, water resources technol

Document details

Collection	Alberta — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	19810427
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	L19 S3 19810427 1430 01 han.pdf
Language	en
Format	json
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	dd59df1e051f171342e3909f22f2f62e7f620b89

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