2011 Legislative Session: Third Session, 39th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.

The printed version remains the official version.

official report of

Debates of the Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Tuesday, May 10, 2011

Afternoon Sitting

Volume 21, Number 6

CONTENTS

Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members

Tributes

Serpentine Enhancement Society

D. Hayer

Introductions by Members

Statements (Standing Order 25B)

Health care auxiliaries

V. Huntington

Lions Gate Hospital Foundation fundraising for mental health and addictions facility

J. McIntyre

Protection of water resources

D. Routley

Richmond Yacht Club

R. Howard

Volunteer firefighters and first responders

B. Simpson

Experience the Fraser project

M. Dalton

Oral Questions

Funding for criminal justice system

A. Dix

Hon. B. Penner

L. Krog

J. Horgan

Contract process for casino project on lands adjacent to B.C. Place

S. Chandra Herbert

Hon. P. Bell

S. Simpson

First Nations consultation on Enbridge oil pipeline proposal

S. Fraser

Hon. R. Coleman

Government preparedness for oil spills

R. Fleming

Hon. T. Lake

Impact of harmonized sales tax elimination on restaurant industry

B. Ralston

Hon. K. Falcon

Orders of the Day

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Social Development (continued)

J. Kwan

Hon. H. Bloy

S. Simpson

V. Huntington

M. Elmore

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General (continued)

K. Corrigan

Hon. S. Bond

R. Austin

C. Trevena

J. Brar

H. Bains

N. Simons

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TUESDAY, MAY 10, 2011

The House met at 1:33 p.m.

[Mr. Speaker in the chair.]

Routine Business

Introductions by Members

L. Reid: I have two introductions today. I am pleased to introduce to this House Hannah Wylie, who recently graduated in political science from Carleton University and served as a chief page in the Senate. That would be fascinating. Hannah will be staying in Victoria this summer and is interested in applying for a job that could utilize her political skills. Would the House please give her a warm British Columbia welcome.

I also have the pleasure this afternoon of introducing a group of Western Washington University students who are visiting from Bellingham. They're here today to learn about our Canadian system of governance as part of their fourth-year political science course entitled the politics of Canada. As the university celebrates its 40th anniversary of the Center for Canadian-American Studies, it is fitting that these students take a day to learn firsthand in British Columbia how parliamentary democracy works. They are accompanied by their professor, Dr. Butch Kamena, and I'd ask the House to please make them feel warm in British Columbia.

C. James: I have four guests in the gallery today — well, five guests, one very small guest.

Mr. Speaker: No grandchildren?

C. James: No grandchildren to introduce today from me.

We have two guests visiting us from Japan: Mr. Shigemi Harada, who is a local village councillor in Japan; and his wife, Michiko Harada. They're here in Victoria to visit their daughter Mami and their son-in-law James Harada-Down and their brand-new grandson, Biko, who was born on April 20. So would the House please make them very welcome.

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L. Popham: I have a gaggle of students up in the gallery, and they are from South Island Distance Education School, otherwise known as SIDES. Please make them welcome.

Hon. D. McRae: I have a cornucopia of guests from the Comox Valley. I had the good people from Probus come to the Legislature today, and I was able to give them a tour. I'd like to say welcome to Heather Philip, who organized the event; Sharon Hysert; Dr. Betty Donaldson; Ethel Homberg, Laura and Nelson Cheyne; David and Beverley Pendlebury; Cynthia Conway, who came here from England; Elsie Marks; Ron and Pat Richardson; Bill and Bev Lambeth. I'd like to have the House wish them welcome.

P. Pimm: Well, I only have one guest to introduce today, but it's the most important guest in my life. Joining us today in the gallery is my wife, Jody. I'd like the House to help me make her welcome.

Tributes

SERPENTINE ENHANCEMENT SOCIETY

D. Hayer: The Tynehead Hatchery, which is operated by the Serpentine Enhancement Society, held its open house on May 8. It was attended by hundreds and hundreds of community members of all ages, from children to students to seniors to many of our pioneers, on Mother's Day.

The society was helping the community to release thousands of salmon into Surrey's Serpentine River. Some of the volunteers who helped with that included Glenn Wright, Ebb Budgell, Julie Budgell, Bruce Easton, Chris Hamming, Dave Woods, Carol Wright, Frank Marshalock, Laura Hagar-Gaube, Cathryn Kyle and founder Emil Quinn, who started the foundation with his own money.

I would ask all in the House to recognize all these great volunteers, who do a great job for our community.

Introductions by Members

J. Kwan: I am very delighted to introduce two very important people from my community. I rarely get guests, so I get very excited when they come to visit in this Legislature. We have Terry Hunter and his son Montana Hunter visiting us today.

Terry, of course, people will know. He's one of the key movers and shakers in the artistic community. He is very much involved with the Vancouver Moving Theatre and of course puts on the best festival in the city of Vancouver, called the Heart of the City Festival, in the Downtown Eastside.

Would the House please make them feel very welcome.

Hon. S. Cadieux: I had the honour of having lunch today with the Minister of Finance and two constituents from his riding of Surrey-Cloverdale. Wayne and Arlene Groome are here this afternoon, and I'd like to make them welcome.

S. Chandra Herbert: I am very excited to welcome students from King George Secondary School from

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Vancouver–West End, their teacher Sherry Preston and her mother, Melanie Preston. I had the great privilege of working with both of them in a circus — not the Legislature but a circus.

Would everybody please make them feel very welcome. They will be joining us shortly.

S. Simpson: Joining in with my colleague the member for Vancouver–West End, I particularly want to extend a welcome to my constituency assistant Rachel Garrick, whose son is a student at King George and is here with us. Hope you'll make Michael welcome.

Statements

(Standing Order 25B)

HEALTH CARE AUXILIARIES

V. Huntington: May 10 is proclaimed Health Care Auxiliary Day. It is the day we recognize the ongoing contributions made by the British Columbia Association of Health Care Auxiliaries to improving the quality of health care available to all British Columbians.

Every year B.C. hospital auxiliaries dedicate thousands of hours to upholding the time-honoured tradition of service to patients and families. Without compensation or complaint, auxiliary members work tirelessly to benefit our hospitals and communities. Auxiliary members provide many valuable hospital services, including the roving library, information and way-finding programs, lifeline services and music therapy.

They also make major financial contributions to our hospitals, regularly providing million-dollar pledges for program and hospital improvements. Funding these contributions is not easy, and auxiliary members are found running thrift stores, gift shops, lotto booths, cafés and pledge drives across the province.

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Keeping our hospitals equipped is an ongoing task, and our auxiliaries give precious time and money, providing the comfort items and medical equipment needed by patients and their families. These dedicated efforts are warmly received by families, patients, staff and physicians alike.

On a personal note, I am pleased to announce today that my local Delta Hospital Auxiliary Society is unveiling their latest contribution to Delta Hospital — a $700,000 digital mammography unit. This comes on the heels of a recent $1 million contribution toward the redevelopment of the emergency room. On top of this and so much more, the Delta Auxiliary provides eight $1,000 bursaries each year to local medical students.

On this Health Care Auxiliary Day, join me in thanking our valued partners by recognizing them and honouring them for their timeless commitment to health care in B.C.

LIONS GATE HOSPITAL FOUNDATION

FUNDRAISING FOR MENTAL

HEALTH AND ADDICTIONS FACILITY

J. McIntyre: On the heels of Mental Health Week, I rise to pay tribute to President Judy Savage and the Lions Gate Hospital Foundation as they officially embark on their largest-ever capital campaign to raise $25.5 million towards a new mental health and addictions facility that will be adjacent to Lions Gate Hospital and which will also include dedicated teaching space for the UBC Faculty of Medicine and, at long last, a nine-bay permanent home for the B.C. Ambulance Service in North Vancouver.

After five years of planning, the new four-storey, 26-bed facility will replace an antiquated, dilapidated 1929 structure with state-of-the-art integrated treatment, providing both in- and out-patient care. Now that the foundation has completed its campaign, ably led by Joanne Houssian, for the much-needed and beautifully designed North Shore Hospice, this volunteer organization is committed to raising additional funds from our generous community under campaign chair Clark Quintin's leadership.

The centre will serve the one in four North Shore residents that will be affected by some form of mental illness or addictions or both, many of whom typically do not seek care or are afraid to ask for help.

Through the Lions Gate Hospital Foundation's dedicated efforts, we will soon have the opportunity to reduce the stigma associated with mental health and addictions and begin to better care for our families, our friends and colleagues, with compassion, in a safe, bright, caring environment.

Construction on the new centre is expected to be underway in summer 2011, with completion scheduled for the end of 2013. I'm hoping that all members of the House will join me in thanking Judy and the board of Lions Gate Hospital Foundation for their ongoing commitment to enhancing the quality of life and inspiring hope for all of us on the North Shore.

PROTECTION OF WATER RESOURCES

D. Routley: As we face the unavoidable and immediate changes that climate change brings to our lives, water is an obvious focus. We think of sea level increases. In fact, yesterday, May 9, the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations released technical reports to update B.C.'s guidelines for sea dike design and management of coastal flood hazard land use to include consideration of sea level rise.

However, we less frequently think of the implications for our groundwater resource. In Canada we possess 7 percent of the world's total renewable fresh water supply. In B.C. groundwater provides 23 percent of our population with their drinking water. Groundwater provides 9

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percent of the total water consumption in our province. In B.C. groundwater consumption accounts for 25 percent of the total groundwater use in Canada.

In the mid–Vancouver Island region we occupy and draw from very low producing aquifers, with low permeability and low porosity. That means this type of rock has a very limited ability to store and produce water and that when water is removed from this type of aquifer, it can take a long time to recharge or refill.

As we see reduced flows in our rivers and reduced storage in our lakes and snowpacks, partially caused by the effects of climate change, we also see increased failures of wells and water shortages. Our groundwater faces many threats — on the demand side or use side, increased residential development and industrial use; on the supply side, reduced flows, snowpacks and the effects of climate change.

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It is our responsibility, as citizens and at all levels of government, to make sound and responsible decisions about our water, reduce our consumption and create sustainable policies that recognize the increased threats facing this most essential of natural resources.

RICHMOND YACHT CLUB

R. Howard: Many groups make my city of Richmond such a wonderful place to live. One of them is the Richmond Yacht Club, which just held its annual sail-past ceremony on Saturday.

Growing up in Richmond, you're certainly taught to respect the river and the ocean, and for many Richmond residents, boating is a passion, making the Richmond Yacht Club an important part of many people's lives. The yacht club was chartered in 1963 and in 1975 moved to its current location on the Middle Arm of the Fraser River.

The yacht club has always been family-oriented. My family are also members. Hi to Mom and Mel. I am pleased to say it is also community-oriented, holding events for the greater community to enjoy and making contributions to important local charities.

In fact, another major event they hold every December is the Parade of Lights, where large crowds brave the weather and gather along the river to watch the festive parade. The kids get to witness Santa's arrival, and donations are collected for the Richmond Food Bank.

The Parade of Lights, Santa's breakfast, the annual sail-past, the dragon boat association, Abreast in a Boat, power squadron and radio licensing courses and the year-round dedication to encourage and develop passion for boating make this organization an important Richmond institution.

Thank you to the hard-working community-minded board, better known as the Bridge — Commodore Robert Poburko and Bridge members Mary Ellen Bullock, Brian Morris, Dick Reitenbach, Garrett Weir, Steve Triance and Greg Halsey-Brandt. I invite all members of the House to congratulate the Richmond Yacht Club on another successful year.

VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS

AND FIRST RESPONDERS

B. Simpson: Every year the Professional Fire Fighters Association conducts its information lobby with MLAs. That always reminds me how much of our province is protected and served by volunteer firefighters and first responders. These volunteers lead busy professional and work lives, have family and other community obligations, and yet they make the time to train, practise and provide critical services to many communities in our province.

The entire riding of Cariboo North is served by these volunteers, and I enjoy every opportunity I'm given to attend their annual recognition dinners and let them know directly how much their extra efforts and community-mindedness are appreciated. Volunteer firefighters and first responders literally provide neighbour-to-neighbour protection, care and comfort on shoestring budgets out of the goodness of their hearts and their deep sense of commitment to their community.

They also have to be consummate fundraisers to ensure they have the equipment and training they need to provide the professional level of service people have come to expect from them and that they want to continue to provide.

This year my office worked with the Ministry of Health and the Solicitor General's office to ensure that first responders would not have to add to their fundraising burden the cost to replace consumable first-aid supplies when they attended the scene of an accident or emergency health call.

The first responders in Cariboo North appreciate the government's decision to continue to have B.C. Ambulance replenish their supplies on an as-used basis. It means their fundraising efforts can continue to go to maintaining or enhancing the level of service they provide to their communities.

Volunteer firefighters and first responders are a critical part of B.C.'s public safety infrastructure, so government has a special obligation to ensure ongoing dialogue and consultation with them before legislative or regulatory changes are made that could impact their ability to provide professional services.

I ask the members of this House to join me in recognizing the valuable contribution volunteer firefighters and first responders make to British Columbia.

EXPERIENCE THE FRASER PROJECT

M. Dalton: I am pleased to inform my colleagues of a great project that represents a true collaboration

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between the province of British Columbia, the Fraser Valley regional district, Metro Vancouver and a number of other key partners, including the federal government and local First Nations.

The Experience the Fraser project or ETF has been developed to celebrate heritage and enhance recreation outdoor opportunities along one of British Columbia's most picturesque natural assets, the Fraser River. ETF will showcase the lower Fraser River corridor and promote the region as one of the world's great river destinations. It will connect both residents and visitors to the many waterfront communities and natural features along the river.

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With over 160 kilometres of recreation and cultural heritage amenities stretching from Hope to the Salish Sea, Experience the Fraser will join existing trails and infrastructure, including the Trans Canada Trail, with exciting new opportunities that will enhance active recreation, cultural appreciation and tourism.

Experience the Fraser has gathered a great deal of momentum in recent months, and the first of many on-the-ground demonstration projects has been well received by the public. One such project involves a new Trans Canada Trail segment in Langley that will help connect the Golden Ears Bridge to Fort Langley. Yet another project, the B.C. Spirit Squares initiative in Mission, has created a new waterfront gathering place and trail segments that provides a spectacular river view of Mount Baker.

ETF will continue to add trails and features along the Fraser River, with strong support of project partners. I encourage my colleagues here today and all British Columbians to get out one day soon to experience the Fraser.

Oral Questions

FUNDING FOR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM

A. Dix: My question is to the Attorney General. Two weeks ago in Victoria two courtrooms were closed. Last week in Kelowna two more were closed. Eight families seeking justice were denied because, in that case, there were no sheriffs. In Kelowna, Judge Cartwright didn't pull any punches. She said: "It's ridiculous to run courtrooms this way." Does the Attorney General agree with Judge Cartwright?

Hon. B. Penner: We do take safety and security in the courthouses seriously, and that's always the paramount concern. Obviously, the judge didn't feel comfortable proceeding in the absence of a sheriff. On any given day there could be fluctuations in the caseload, or there can be increased rates of absenteeism with the sheriff services. But overall, we work hard to provide the sheriffs that are required for the courts to operate in a safe manner, and that remains our number one priority.

Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a supplemental.

A. Dix: Well, everybody in the justice system knows there are not enough sheriffs and there are not enough judges. Everybody knows that. The government has failed and left us behind in this regard, and there are real costs to families as a result, and to all of us, when justice is denied. There are 2,000 cases pending in the criminal justice system. So I wanted to ask the Attorney General whether he recognizes those costs involved in his inaction in dealing with those problems and what steps he is going to take to address the situation.

Hon. B. Penner: Another day and another commitment from the opposition to spend yet more tax dollars at the very same time they're leading a campaign that will take $3 billion away from government revenues. It's another clear example of NDP hypocrisy.

As the Leader of the Opposition is leading a campaign that will deprive government revenues of $3 billion in tax revenue over the next couple of years, every single day he turns around in here, in this chamber, and says to government: "Just spend more tax money." It's just like the 1990s — tax, borrow and spend. That's the legacy of the NDP under the former chief of staff to the Premier and now Leader of the Opposition.

Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplemental.

A. Dix: I know that the Attorney General was campaigning. I know he's all non-partisan as Attorney General now, but he was campaigning at the time. He and his colleagues said the deficit at that time, the deficit at the time of the last election, was $495 million. They missed — oops — by $3 billion.

Now they're trying to justify misleading people on the HST on the basis of their incompetence in managing public finances. But the people are paying the price here for what the president of the Crown Counsel Association calls "a systematic stripping of the criminal justice system." That's what the president of the Crown Counsel Association calls it.

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Does he not think there's a price when we lose criminal cases in the courts? Does he not think there's a price when justice is denied? Will he not recognize that there's a crisis in the courts and do something about it?

Hon. B. Penner: Staff in the Ministry of Attorney General work hard every day to deliver top value for every dollar spent, something the NDP doesn't appreciate, but it's true. Every single day in this House I listen

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to individual members on the other side say: "Just spend more money." They never answer the question: "Where is that money supposed to come from?"

Record spending in the Ministry of Health. Record spending in the Ministry of Education. Increased funding for Advanced Education. Every single day, though, the NDP's answer is: "Just spend more." Meanwhile they're campaigning against the tax measure that's bringing more revenue to the province and is stronger for the economy. That is more NDP math, and it just doesn't add up.

L. Krog: I think I heard the Attorney General just tell this House that he doesn't think justice is worth a dollar or two in British Columbia. I think I heard him say that justice doesn't matter in British Columbia. In 2010….

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Member, just take your seat for a second.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Continue, Member.

L. Krog: In September 2010 his predecessor received a report, Justice Delayed . It condemned the lack of judicial resources. The report was posted on the Provincial Court website in December — 17 judges short across the province.

The Attorney General and his predecessor have had nearly eight months to remedy the situation. What is he going to do? Is he going to announce the appointment of the needed Provincial Court judges today — yes or no?

Hon. B. Penner: As I indicated to the member when he last asked me this question about two weeks ago, we have appointed nine new judges in the past year. However, it does not come without a cost, which is something the NDP opposition always wants to overlook.

The cost of hiring and equipping a judge is not just the average salary of $231,000 plus pension benefits and other benefits. In order to equip the judges properly so that they can function, the total cost to the Ministry of Attorney General is about $1.4 million to $1.6 million for each additional judicial appointment.

From which ministry, sir, would you suggest we take the money so that we can hire more judges? Are you suggesting money from the Ministry of Health, Ministry of Education, Ministry of Advanced Education?

We have a budget that we're working to live within. Like all British Columbians, we have a budget we're trying to stay within. It really rings hollow for members of the opposition who, every single day, say that record spending in health and education is not enough. If those budgets keep going up, it obviously puts pressure on the rest of government, unless their answer is just to borrow and tax some more.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

L. Krog: Well, that's a remarkable response from the Attorney General in a government that was happily writing off $6 million in legal fees for Liberal insiders.

You know, hon. Speaker, the government has been proud of its record on prosecuting drunk drivers. Well, I want to tell this House that in a brown envelope I got four cases out of my city alone, Nanaimo — drunk-driving cases dismissed because of delays in our judicial system. If the Attorney General thinks that's the appropriate way to handle justice in British Columbia, perhaps he should step aside and let someone into his position who can go to cabinet and get the resources that are necessary.

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It is absolutely unprecedented in this province to hear judges speaking out in case after case after case, talking about the lack of resources to prosecute the criminals, to let families have their cases heard, to let people with small claims issues be dealt with in the courts appropriately.

This Attorney General had better step up to the plate and solve this problem. What's he going to do today? Is he going to fill the vacancies — again, yes or no?

Hon. B. Penner: We've heard, yet again, the NDP's answer to everything is to just spend more money, and taxes and deficit be damned. Well, there is an alternative approach. It's to live within a budget and look for other ways to address delays in the justice system, other than just always spending more money that comes at the expense of taxpayers.

The member raises impaired driving. Under our government, we've increased the penalties for driving .05 or more. In the first few months, several thousand cases fewer have been approved to go to court because we're dealing with them quicker on the roadside.

The proof is in the pudding. Not only are we saving thousands of cases from clogging the courts; we're saving lives with a 40 percent decrease in fatalities in the first three months that the policy was in place. That doesn't cost taxpayers any more money.

J. Horgan: Shortage of prosecutors, shortage of judges, shortage of sheriffs. No shortage of public money to pay off convicted criminals' legal bills.

Will the minister stand in his place as the minister responsible for the judicial system in British Columbia and give the people of British Columbia some answers about how he's going to fix it, not yesterday but today and tomorrow?

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Hon. B. Penner: As I was already elaborating in my last answer, we have already…. Our government has introduced new legislation to add additional penalties for over .05, and that's having an effect. Within the first few months more than 2,500 fewer cases ended up going into the court system because they were being dealt with at the roadside, and that will save time and money in the justice system.

But most importantly, it's saving lives. Early evidence indicates a 40 percent decrease in fatality rates due to drinking and driving.

Mr. Speaker, the member is correct. There is more that can be done. It still strikes me as unacceptable that the average criminal case has seven pretrial appearances before the trial ever starts. So right here in Victoria we have launched a pilot program to try and work with all members of the justice system — the lawyers, the prosecutors and the judiciary — to reduce the number of pretrial appearances so cases can happen sooner and we spend less money.

CONTRACT PROCESS FOR CASINO PROJECT

ON LANDS ADJACENT TO B.C. PLACE

S. Chandra Herbert: Questions have been raised about the B.C. Liberals' decision to push for a mega-casino next to B.C. Place. Last week in estimates the minister responsible for PavCo told this House that before the request for expressions of interest and the request for proposals were issued for the site next to B.C. Place…. He said: "There was no discussion of specifically what might go on that site, whether it be a casino or something of another nature."

He continued: "Once the request for expression of interest and then the request for proposals took place, Paragon became the likely proponent. The casino became a feature of it, and at that point in time, then, PavCo would at times have talked about the casino development."

That request for proposals was issued in April 2009 and awarded to Paragon weeks later. However, a package released through a freedom-of-information request includes an August 2008 issues document from the PavCo-sponsored city of Vancouver committee in charge of planning for the area, which directly contradicts the minister's statement.

Mr. Speaker: Question, Member.

S. Chandra Herbert: It refers to a PavCo proposal for the site that "allows for a very large floor plate filling in almost the entire infill site to the west of the stadium. This is to allow for the very large floor plate of the casino."

Mr. Speaker: Pose the question, please, Member.

S. Chandra Herbert: Why was B.C. PavCo working with Paragon on the casino plan at least nine months before the expression of interest and the RFP were issued?

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Hon. P. Bell: There's nothing inconsistent between the information that was released to the opposition as a result of a freedom-of-information request and my comments last week. In fact, what I said was that there were a variety of options discussed during the early years of PavCo's engagement with the city. There was not a specific focus on a casino or any other specific form of development but that all were under consideration.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

S. Chandra Herbert: The documents are clear. The PavCo-sponsored committee was planning for a casino on the site next to B.C. Place in August 2008. The RFP for that site was only put out in April 2009. The minister's statements do not stand up.

We said the deal with Paragon and the B.C. Liberal insider T. Richard Turner stunk at the time, and it stinks even worse today. Why did the B.C. Liberals go ahead with a sham RFP process when the documents show that PavCo was already planning to place a large casino right next to B.C. Place Stadium?

Hon. P. Bell: This site was always conceived of by both the city of Vancouver as well as the province of British Columbia as an entertainment district. That's exactly what will be developed on the site. The city recently approved the move of the Edgewater Casino, if that is deemed to be suitable by the proponent, to this particular site. We want to create a vibrant entertainment district, and that's exactly what we're going to do.

S. Simpson: In March 2009, at exactly the same time the request for expressions of interest was being issued, the Vancouver assistant director of planning said in an e-mail: "PavCo indicated to us last year that they were talking to the casino folks about locating on the stadium site. They were planning the base of their western building to accommodate the large floor plate."

Clearly, the city knew that PavCo and the casino were talking well before the expressions of interest ever came out. How come the minister didn't know that, and if he did know it, will he withdraw the comments he made in this House last week through estimates?

Hon. P. Bell: Mr. Speaker, you know, one would think that any Crown corporation that is designated as developing an entertainment district would be considering all of its options. The fact that PavCo would consider that does not in any way reflect that they were not considering many other options for the site and making

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sure that we were properly prepared going into both the request-for-proposal process as well as the discussions with the city of Vancouver.

What is important, I think, is the fact that the city of Vancouver — the mayor, Mayor Robertson — and I are communicating on a regular basis to determine what the right proposal will be for this site. I'm confident that we're going to have a proposal that will meet the needs of both the city of Vancouver and the province of British Columbia.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

S. Simpson: Hon. Speaker, you would think that the B.C. Liberal government would have learned. We've seen this movie before. The B.C. Rail scandal was all about fixing the deal for CN under an illusion of an open process. Now we see a situation where a deal gets fixed for the casino. It's the same process. You'd think the government would have learned its lesson.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

S. Simpson: Does the minister agree that this process is flawed, and will he investigate?

Hon. P. Bell: I know that business skills on the opposite side of the House are somewhat limited. You would think that it would be appropriate, when you have some of the most valuable property in the city of Vancouver in the province of British Columbia, to pursue all of the options. In fact, from what I can tell, the only business skills that the opposition members have are when they show up to their party offices with brown paper bags full of $10 bills.

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FIRST NATIONS CONSULTATION ON

ENBRIDGE OIL PIPELINE PROPOSAL

S. Fraser: Premier Clark appointed a new Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation. My question is to that minister. More than 80 First Nations in the north and along the coast are saying no to the Enbridge tar sands pipeline and the associated supertanker traffic on the coast. Will the minister be respecting that resounding decision?

Hon. R. Coleman: I know the members opposite opposed any investment in northwestern or northeastern British Columbia — whether we would invest in any jobs that would create thousands of jobs and billions of dollars in revenue to help pay for health care and education.

To the members opposite: as these particular processes come through, they will engage with First Nations and are, and they will work through the processes with them. I'll tell the member that on one of the actual pipelines that are involved, 16 of the 17 First Nations have already signed on in support of the one particular pipeline. So the member should remember that we will do the work with First Nations, as we always have and will continue to do.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

S. Fraser: I guess Premier Clark appointed a new Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation.

This comes from the minister that last week demonstrated he doesn't even know the difference between tar sands bitumen and liquid natural gas. The bitumen, that tar sands stuff, is black and gooey and will ruin ecosystems. Natural gas is lighter than air at atmospheric temperature. Since he doesn't seem to know that file, I don't think it bodes a lot of confidence in the new file of Aboriginal Relations.

In order to respect the new relationship, this government must — and I'm going to quote to the minister responsible — "ensure that lands and resources are managed in accordance with First Nations laws, knowledge and values." Enbridge is responsible for over 700 spills in their operations in the last decade. First Nations have said no. That's no to oil spill industry and yes to a living environment and healthy, thriving fisheries.

To the minister responsible: are she and the B.C. Liberal Premier willing to force a tar sands pipeline on northern and coastal First Nations, even in the face of overwhelming First Nation opposition?

Hon. R. Coleman: We do know the difference, hon. Member, between oil and natural gas. Both of them are natural resources in British Columbia that are actually paying for education and health care and social programs.

I know you live in a little cocoon out there, hon. Member, but every month tankers come into the Port of Vancouver and deliver oil and gasoline to British Columbia so we can run our economy. Are you going to go out and stop that too, hon. Member?

We have an environmental review process in Canada and in British Columbia better than anywhere else in the world. We'll stand behind that. We'll stand behind our consultations. We'll try and create jobs and investment in British Columbia so we can pay for all the things that you people want, like health care and education and social programs for the people of British Columbia.

GOVERNMENT PREPAREDNESS

FOR OIL SPILLS

R. Fleming: This morning Ministry of Environment officials are telling the media that it will take years for

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the Goldstream River to be free of gas and diesel residue from a recent accident. The gas truck just spilled over 250 barrels of gasoline into the Goldstream River, while the latest pipeline rupture in Alberta spilled almost 28,000 barrels of heavy crude into Alberta's environment.

To the Minister of Environment: if 250 barrels of gasoline devastate a river in this community, can he tell the House what a spill of 28,000 barrels of heavy crude would do in the environment of British Columbia?

[1415]

Hon. T. Lake: Of course, we regret that gasoline spilled into the Goldstream River. We're working very hard with a multi-agency team, including First Nations. I visited the site myself and was very pleased with the response of our ministry and the First Nations as well as the federal agencies.

We're committed to making sure that the persons responsible for these types of events are fully held accountable and pay for all of the costs. We're quite confident that the processes we have put in place will in fact lead to total rehabilitation of that river. We're very confident in our environmental assessment office and the risk assessment for the major projects that come through to British Columbia.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

R. Fleming: As the Minister of Environment knows, the proposed Enbridge tar sands pipeline would cross hundreds of streams and rivers in British Columbia. This is a pipeline that would contain and carry 525,000 barrels of crude per day. The associated crude oil supertanker traffic would put the entire coast, including the pristine Great Bear rain forest, at risk of a catastrophic spill.

Again to the Environment Minister: how can British Columbians trust the B.C. Liberals to protect B.C. coastal communities and the tens of thousands of jobs, the thousands of small businesses that rely on a clean marine environment? Or will this government continue to take risks with the environment that British Columbians, in poll after poll, overwhelmingly reject?

Hon. T. Lake: Well, it is the case that British Columbia has a very robust, well-respected environmental assessment process. The member opposite is already prejudging the outcome. I thought the reason that we had proper institutions in this province, in this country, was to allow everyone to have a fair process.

The environmental assessment process is robust. We will consider all of the potential effects of any project that comes before us.

Last time I checked, that member opposite still owned a car and appreciated having the natural resources of this great country enable us to have the lifestyle. But it has to be in balance with our environment. We will make sure that our environment is well protected here in British Columbia.

IMPACT OF HARMONIZED SALES TAX

ELIMINATION ON RESTAURANT INDUSTRY

B. Ralston: British Columbians have learned the hard way that they can't trust anything the B.C. Liberal government says about the HST. Yesterday the Minister of Finance threatened that a rejection of the HST in the referendum would still result in higher meal costs for British Columbians and continued pain for the restaurant and food service industry. So I'd like to offer the minister the opportunity to clarify his comments.

Will the Finance Minister confirm that when the HST is defeated, a return to the PST will mean that the additional 7 percent HST tax on restaurant meals will be gone?

Hon. K. Falcon: Well, I'm not sure what he refers to. I made no such commitment whatsoever. What I did say is that it would be irresponsible to make any commitment — good, bad or indifferent — until such time as we know what the results of the referendum are and until such time as we have a conversation with British Columbians on how best to deal with the impacts, good or bad, with respect to the referendum.

But I am, as I've mentioned before, quite interested in understanding — as I sat here today and listened to yet more requests from the NDP to spend more money in virtually every ministry — how they are going to square their rather aggressive and ambitious spending program against the fact that they're campaigning for the restoration of the provincial sales tax, which in fact, as we know from the independent panel report, will deprive the province of British Columbia in a two-year period alone of almost $3 billion in revenue.

I'm very interested in hearing from the NDP Finance critic how they intend to square that circle.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

The member has a supplemental.

[1420]

B. Ralston: Well, the restaurant and food service industry — those who work in it, those hundreds of thousands of people who work in that industry — has a right to know the answer to this question. The referendum question that's going before the public — and it is binding upon the government — is simple: are you in favour of extinguishing the HST and reinstating the PST in conjunction with the GST — yes or no?

To the minister again: if the people of British Columbia choose to reject the HST, will they get the original PST,

[ Page 6843 ]

or will they be getting a poison pill PST concocted by this minister?

Hon. K. Falcon: We've been very clear that we will honour and obey the direction the public makes, whatever that decision is, with respect to the decision over whether to stay with the harmonized sales tax or go back to the NDP's preferred option, which is the PST plus the GST.

I do think, though, that the public will also be interested in hearing about the NDP's proposition. The Leader of the Opposition has said he's actually going to campaign for an option which will see British Columbia move, under the NDP's preferred option, to a retail sales tax — something that nowhere in the world, no jurisdiction, has done in 35 years.

It is fascinating that part of that Leader of the Opposition's what I call the tax trifecta of economic destruction includes going back on a retail sales tax where almost nowhere else in the world is going. I'm happy to see that debate unfold. I am really looking forward to hearing from the Leader of the Opposition how he intends to dramatically increase spending in every ministry of government while at the same time campaigning for an option that the independent panel, of which they are fond of quoting, has pointed out very clearly will cost the government coffers, over the next couple of years, almost $3 billion. I'm very interested in seeing that answer from the NDP.

[End of question period.]

Orders of the Day

Hon. R. Coleman: Mr. Speaker, I was busy for a moment there. In this House we will be continuing the estimates of the Ministry of Social Development, and in Committee A we will be continuing the estimates of the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General.

[1425]

Committee of Supply

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF

SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT

(continued)

The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); L. Reid in the chair.

The committee met at 2:29 p.m.

On Vote 40: ministry operations, $2,339,088,000 (continued).

J. Kwan: Just prior to the break my colleague the member for Powell River–Sunshine Coast was asking the minister about some of the rates and some of the exemption-related matters.

I'd like to first ask the minister a quick question. Child tax benefit — that would be the Canada child tax benefit. Are those dollars deducted dollar for dollar for those who are on income assistance, or are they exempt?

[1430]

Hon. H. Bloy: In response to the member's question this morning regarding part-time employees, the number of part-time employees is 137.

In response to the member's question, the federal child tax benefit is exempt from income tax rates.

J. Kwan: What the minister, I think, meant to say is that it is exempt from income assistance, so it's not clawed back dollar for dollar.

In that instance, could the minister explain to me why recipients who receive retroactive payment on the Canada child tax benefit get those dollars clawed back? In other words, sometimes the federal government makes mistakes, and those income assistance recipients receive their Canada child tax benefit in a lump sum in a delayed manner, not through any fault of their own. They're entitled to that money, and had they received that money in a timely fashion on a month-by-month basis in the designated time they were supposed to receive it, those dollars would not be clawed back.

But in the instance where those moneys arrive late from the federal government in a lump sum, those dollars are then clawed back by the ministry. Why is that? Why that penalty against families and their children? And if that policy is bad — and I would assume that the minister would admit that's a bad policy — will he then commit today to eliminating that clawback so that those families who should be receiving those dollars would get every cent of it as they deserve?

[1435]

Hon. H. Bloy: Retroactive child benefit supplement payments are treated as unearned income and deducted from income assistance, as they are not for the child's current monthly support needs.

J. Kwan: But surely the minister understands the illogicalness of this — right? Had the money arrived on time for that month for that family, they would have been able to keep every single cent of that child tax benefit from the federal government. But because of a mistake from another entity — namely, the federal government — the family receives that money late. They then receive the money in a lump sum, and when that happens, they get those moneys reduced from their income assistance cheques. That makes no sense.

That's literally taking money out of the hands of children. There's no other way to describe it, Madam Chair.

[ Page 6844 ]

That is a policy question. I know what the minister's policy says and what his briefing book says, and I know what his staff is going to tell him. It's a policy that has been put in place that is plain wrong.

What I'm asking for today is political leadership from this minister and for this government, who say that they want to support and put families first. So I ask the minister to please not consult with your staff, because they cannot give you that answer. They are not authorized to give you that answer.

The answer can only come from the politician. That would be the minister, in this instance, and I'm asking the minister: does he believe that those dollars should be clawed back when they are retroactively paid to the families? This would be the Canada child tax benefit received by a family in a lump sum because of an error from the federal government. Yes or no?

If he believes that family is first, then I would expect that his answer would be, "No, they should not be clawed back," and that he'll do everything he can to fix that problem and tell the Premier that it is a wrong policy and that they will in fact immediately eradicate that. That would be the answer I'd be expecting from a minister who will advocate on behalf of children and who believes in the policy of putting families first.

[1440]

Hon. H. Bloy: When an income assistance recipient is not receiving child tax benefits, the ministry provides a top-up. Assistance is provided to meet needs in the current month, and that's why when a retroactive benefit is received, it is declared as income.

J. Kwan: The situation, of course, is this. When the minister talks about a top-up, it's not an automatic top-up. People don't get an addition in their support portion because they didn't get their child tax benefit. They go to the ministry to ask for further assistance, and sometimes they get it, and sometimes they don't. Sometimes they have to pay it back.

Well, I'm asking for a basic policy change. Anybody with a reasonable sense would agree with me, and that is to say that the Canada child tax benefit that is given to every single family that is eligible, including those on income assistance, should be staying with those families without a clawback.

The minister has told us that the policy is such that if you should receive that money on time, then you would not receive a clawback. Those families and those children get to keep that money to support them. But if for some reason the federal government makes a mistake and you somehow receive that money late, if somehow there is a delay for you to receive that money and it accumulates over a period of time….

[1445]

In the instance of a constituent of mine, for over six months they did not get their child tax benefit. For those six months they ran around, they maxed out their credit card, they borrowed money, and they went into debt to try to survive. Then finally, the federal government sorted out the problem and sent them a cheque in a lump sum. Guess what. Dollar for dollar, that money was deducted from that family. They can't even use that money to pay off the debt that they owe, the interest that they have to pay as a result of racking up the credit card. That's what I'm asking for — a policy change.

I'm not interested for the minister to make up some reason why it's okay to do that, because it's not okay. If the minister believes and this government believes in family first, they would allow those families to keep that money, the child tax benefit from the federal government, which they would have been entitled to keep had the money arrived on time. I ask the minister to show leadership, but he's not been able to do that.

Let me try another area, Madam Chair — dollar-for-dollar cut to child support payments. This has been a policy that was brought on by the B.C. Liberal government back in 2002. They eliminated any child support payment exemptions for any parent on income assistance, which disproportionately impacts women.

Child maintenance payments are meant to directly support children in single families. This policy directly impacts the supports for children in vulnerable families. Dollar-for-dollar cut of child support payments for families just keeps children, frankly, in poverty. Is it any wonder that we have the highest child poverty rate in the country year after year?

In the first two years it was implemented, the loss of the child maintenance exemption affected on average 6,104 families each month, and the government clawed back $14.6 million in spousal support from single mothers. The elimination of child support exemption is one of the reasons, as I said, that's impacting children who are living in poverty today.

Along with the cut in family maintenance in 2002, the B.C. Liberal government — and the minister will know because he was here during that time — has also eliminated earnings exemption. Anyone without a PW or PPMB designation — so for people on income assistance but not on disability — 100 percent of their earned income is clawed back, serving as a deterrent for them to re-enter the workforce.

Since 2002 the loss of the $200-per-month flat-rate earnings exemption and the $100-per-month child maintenance exemption represents a $300 loss in income for these families. In the first two years since that policy was implemented, the government clawed back a total of $35.8 million from working welfare recipients over that two years, taking money directly from families and children who are in greatest need.

I'm asking again for the minister to take political leadership. If he truly believes in what the Premier says — that they would put families first — will he ask the

[ Page 6845 ]

Premier today to change that policy? She was part of the decision-makers around this table back in 2002 when she was Deputy Premier.

If she believes in putting families first, will this minister say to the Premier today to change that policy and allow single parents, single moms, to keep their child maintenance support money when they're on income assistance? And will they reintroduce earnings exemption once again for working families who are on income assistance? Will he commit that today? I just need a simple yes or no. To the minister: will you talk to the Premier and make that commitment?

[1450-1455]

Hon. H. Bloy: You know, earning exemptions were reformed in 2002. They were increased to $500 a month for persons with a disability, but they'll stay on the caseload much longer and combine their benefits with work experience. Earnings exemptions were eliminated for expected-to-work clients based on research that they created a disincentive for those employable clients to return to work.

It's proven since 2002 that the caseload has gone down. Ministry research on these clients who returned to work has shown they are earning more money off of income assistance year over year than they would have on income assistance.

That's one of two answers. Government supports families and single-parent homes to secure maintenance support agreements. Income assistance is there for the families who need to draw upon it, and maintenance amounts are considered to determine the income that the person can exist on.

J. Kwan: On that last answer on child maintenance, I know that is the policy. What I'm saying is that the policy is wrong. Child maintenance money should be money that should be given to the families to support the child. That is why it's called child maintenance.

I have a single mom in my riding, Ms. Lenlen Castro, who fled a violent relationship so that her young daughter could have a fresh start and a safe start. She pursued the maintenance dollars, thinking that those dollars would be there to support her new baby girl. Not so. The money would have been clawed back dollar for dollar.

[1500]

Imagine if you were a single parent fleeing a violent relationship, and in spite of that, you went to pursue the maintenance dollars — as the ministry social workers asked her to do. She did exactly that, putting herself potentially at risk because she wanted additional support for her family, and she couldn't get it. She spoke publicly about this. Why? Because she wants the policy changed not only for herself but for other mothers and children and single parents in British Columbia in her similar situation.

I know what the policy is, and I'm telling the minister that the policy is wrong. If the minister and this government believe that family should come first, then the most vulnerable families should get the support, and that policy should change. All that I was asking this minister was whether or not he would commit to talk to the Premier — because she says she's changed — to see if she will then bring in a policy revision related to these matters.

Finally, I know we're out of time. I asked, like, three or four questions. It's taken about half an hour there, and I'm just going to ask the minister this question. I don't need him to consult with his staff and for them to write out an answer. I simply just need a yes or a no.

He says there's research somewhere to show that in fact the income assistance rate had gone down and that that is directly linked to earnings exemption — that the elimination of earnings exemption somehow is good for income assistance recipients, that somehow it propels them to go and get work and get off of income assistance.

I challenge the minister, then — not today but at a later time — to table the documentation to back up that claim. I'd love to see it, because I don't believe it.

Hon. H. Bloy: For the member across the way, there are three research reports on the ministry's website: the longitudinal administrative database report showing outcomes of clients leaving income assistance. They're on the website, but my staff will also forward you a copy of the research.

S. Simpson: I want to talk a little bit about welfare rates at this point. The minister will know that the last rate increase, the only one during the term of this government, was in 2007. That, of course, came after the government had put in the only rate cut, in 2002, to cut rates. The rates were increased in 2007.

[1505]

The problem is that in every category, with the exception of singles between 18 and 54, when you factor in inflation, people were worse off with the 2007 rate than they were in 2001 — heading up to a single parent with two children being about $330 worse off per month than she was before.

The results of this, as we all know, are things like record use of food banks — almost 95,000 people in March 2010, a 5 percent increase in the use of food banks. Of those who use food banks, 44 percent of them are people who are collecting a welfare cheque and have to use a food bank in order to feed their families and make it work.

My question to the minister is: does the minister believe that the welfare rates currently in place in British Columbia are sufficient to meet the basic needs of a family?

[1510]

[ Page 6846 ]

Hon. H. Bloy: In British Columbia our income assistance is there to provide assistance to those who are most in need, and our rates are comparable to other provinces. We recognize that it is a challenge to live on income assistance.

People often do not know what the various supports available to low-income households are. For instance, a two-parent family of four on income assistance receives a host of provincial and federal benefits that in fact bring their monthly income to about $1,800 per month and $2,025, if their children are under the age of six, to sufficiently meet the monthly cost of a nutritional diet based on Canada's Guidelines for Healthy Eating as well as shelter and other expenses.

S. Simpson: Well, what we know is that in 2009 the Dietitians of Canada released a report called The Cost of Eating in B.C. In that report they outlined how low-income British Columbians can't afford healthy food in British Columbia. Key findings included that they determined the monthly cost for a nutritious food basket for a family of four is about $872. A family of four on income assistance would need more than 100 percent of their total income for shelter and food only, so they don't get to eat that food.

What we also know is that the body that was put in place by the previous Premier, by Premier Campbell, to measure success and progress in this province has released a damning report of this government's performance when it comes to low income.

In 2001 the government set up the B.C. Progress Board. The board set a goal of improving social conditions in B.C., setting a target of being first or second in Canada for having the smallest percentage of families and unattached individuals living below the low-income cutoff by 2010, measured by the percentage of individuals and families below Stats Canada's low-income cutoff. That was the measure that was set in 2001.

What we know is that in their tenth annual report the Progress Board reported that British Columbia ranks sixth out of the ten provinces when it comes to the social condition. The report went on to say that for ten straight years — and this is the Progress Board, a government-appointed body, measuring this — in fact, B.C. has had the highest number of people with incomes below the low-income cutoff or what used to be called the poverty line — the highest number. It also showed that the incidence of long-term unemployment in B.C. has been worse than the national average since 2006.

We have income rates, welfare rates that have gone down, essentially, when you factor in inflation. We have a progress board set up by the government and Premier Campbell that says: "You've failed miserably in meeting the standards around social conditions." You have the Dietitians of Canada saying that people on welfare can't afford to eat healthy and feed their children, and you have record use of food banks.

My question is to the minister. Again, does the minister believe that welfare rates are sufficient to meet the basic needs of people in British Columbia who unfortunately find themselves on income assistance? If he does, he can say yes. If he doesn't believe it's sufficient, what is he prepared to do about it as minister?

[1515]

Hon. H. Bloy: Some of this we had discussed this morning, but income assistance is just one part of a package of services available to support low-income families. The province supplies a suite of services in addition to income and taxation and benefits that would be available from the tax system.

Some of those are: the B.C. climate action tax credit, the B.C. harmonized sales tax credit, the Canada child tax benefit, the B.C. Family Bonus, national child benefit supplement, universal child care benefits. For the member across, the percentage of the population living below the low-income cutoff has reduced dramatically since the year 2000 from 15.1 percent to 11.4 percent.

S. Simpson: The minister might know that that percentage, at just over 11 percent, the National Council of Welfare would tell us is the worst rate in the country.

[1520]

It doesn't answer my question, though. My question to the minister is: does he believe that current welfare rates are sufficient to meet the needs of families? If he does, he can stand up and say yes, he believes that they're sufficient. If he doesn't believe that they're sufficient to meet the needs of families, then my question is: what actions is he contemplating taking to deal with them?

Hon. H. Bloy: To answer your question, Member, B.C., along with all other provinces, considers welfare rates as only a portion of the support that families need. Other supports include benefits in the tax system and other services for low-income families.

S. Simpson: The minister continues to not answer the question. The reality is this. The National Council of Welfare — again, an independent body that looks at these things — has looked at what's gone on in British Columbia. And what have they discovered? They have discovered that since the peak year for social assistance, which was 1994, we have seen, in real dollars adjusted for inflation, that in every category people are worse off today than they were then.

Single employables income since 2009 is down about $1,300; a single person with disability, down more than $1,360; a lone parent with child, down $1,338; a couple with children between ten and 15 are down more than $2,600. In every one of those cases of the four categories they looked at, we've seen people worse off today in

[ Page 6847 ]

real dollars than they were in 1994. The welfare rates are not sufficient.

[1525]

Now, you can increase welfare rates. That's one way to deal with these issues. Another way to deal with these issues is to look at exemptions that allow people who have capacity to do it to be able to earn other income. The problem is that British Columbia is probably the worst province in the country when it comes to earnings exemptions and what is allowed under earnings exemptions.

I would again talk about the National Council of Welfare. One of things they've stated in the research that they've done is that probably the most effective tool to break the trap of welfare is earnings exemptions, which allow people who have the wherewithal to get ahead. But as my colleague from Vancouver–Mount Pleasant pointed out, we don't seem to have that opportunity any longer in British Columbia.

One of the things they do in Manitoba is that they have a system, what they call now the new liquid asset policy, which allows people up to $4,000 per person or $16,000 a family, I believe it is, of assets that they can bring into their family, of exemptions that they can claim, which allows them to look for opportunities to move ahead. Yet we're not seeing any of that in British Columbia.

Could the minister tell us why the government of British Columbia offers such a limited scope of earnings exemptions when every other province, with the exception of Alberta, essentially allows some kind of income exemptions in pretty much every category? In British Columbia that's not the case at all. The exemptions are very limited. Why has British Columbia chosen to have such a narrow view on earnings and income exemptions when we know from the research that it opens doors to create opportunities for people to break that cycle of poverty?

[1530]

Hon. H. Bloy: As the member knows, we did visit this topic with the previous member that was up. For employable clients, the evidence is clear that earnings exemptions encourage people to combine part-time employment with income assistance. Instead of helping employable clients become independent, earnings exemptions increase dependency, making it harder for people to leave income assistance.

The ministry has been successful in transitioning expected-to-work clients to employment and financial independence. Studies using tax data have shown that over 80 percent of British Columbian expected-to-work clients who moved off income assistance have gone on to employment and are better off working. Ministry research has shown that clients who leave assistance for employment have had higher average incomes and lower rates of poverty, and their incomes have tended to increase in subsequent years if they stay off the income assistance.

Earnings exemptions are provided to clients that face serious barriers to employment, who are in most cases unable to work full-time and to become financially independent. Earning exemptions are intended to help these clients participate in the workforce according to their abilities.

S. Simpson: Frankly, the minister is just simply wrong. Earnings exemptions are an effective tool. Income exemptions are an effective tool. They have consistently proven to be an effective tool to break the poverty cycle, and the minister is simply wrong when he says anything different. The reality is this: finding opportunities for people to break that cycle becomes critical.

I'm going to move a little bit to another area that relates somewhat to this. I might have to do a little combining here, so I'm going to bounce a little bit between PWD and income assistance. Maybe this is a connected area.

The minister will know about the program, the community volunteer supplement that's available to people — PWD and persons with multiple barriers. This is a supplement that allows people to volunteer for recognized organizations to be able to make an additional $100. What we know is that there's a long waiting list of people to be able to get on to those programs. It's a program that's simply not meeting their needs.

I have two questions. The first question is: how long is the waiting list for people for the community volunteer supplement program?

Is the government and the minister looking at all at providing some additional resources to allow those people — the people the minister just spoke about, largely people with disabilities — to be able to participate in the community, and to be able to supplement what is a pretty modest or meagre income to start with, by being involved in a program that the government has but won't adequately fund to allow people to take advantage of it?

[1535]

Hon. H. Bloy: As an avid volunteer myself, I understand the positive impacts on someone's life of volunteering, and we are pleased with the appeal of this program. We are proud to have the most generous and extensive community volunteer program in Canada. B.C.'s commitment far outpaces any other province. The $5.3 million budget for 5,000 persons with disabilities far exceeds the half a million dollars for Manitoba, the only other province that has a community volunteer supplement.

In the budget of 2007 we increased this program by $3 million and now have a longer wait-list than before, and

[ Page 6848 ]

we are exploring options to address this problem. The current wait-list is 7,000 clients.

S. Simpson: How long is the wait-list for people wanting to get into the volunteer program?

Hon. H. Bloy: As I just said, the wait-list is currently 7,000 clients.

S. Simpson: So how long does that mean that somebody is likely to be waiting, and is there any intention on the part of the government to improve the program if it's obviously successful? People are using it. People are looking to engage in it. Is there any intention to add enough money to reduce that list by some amount, and if so, could the minister tell us about it?

Hon. H. Bloy: As I previously said, we are pleased at how successful this program is, and we are looking at options to address this.

S. Simpson: Could the minister tell us what "options" means and what he's considering?

[1540]

Hon. H. Bloy: Staff in the ministry are looking at the trend rates for the program in order to consider how best to maximize the program's current scope. This includes considering case studies, considering client outcomes and how best to support clients.

S. Simpson: I just want to deal with a couple of questions that relate to the wait-lists for people on assistance at the moment.

What we know in relation to that is that I know the ministry has allocated an increase of about $65 million for income assistance over three years, largely to deal with the dramatic increases in the welfare rolls. About 3,000 people, I believe, is what was underestimated this year and the coming year. We know there are significant increases, looking at numbers over 107,000 people on assistance in '08, 123,000 in '09, almost 133,000 in 2010.

Could the minister tell us — because I know there've been some problems with delays in processing people: does the problem continue to exist in terms of processing people and getting intake done for people on assistance? If so, what's being done to address it?

[1545]

Hon. H. Bloy: The member is right. There have been demands placed on our staff to be able to meet the challenge. We have diversified our service channels to provide services on the phone and also introduced a self-serve application and assessment tool. We continue to speak with our regional staff. We have a triage of processes in place to continue to ensure that those with immediate needs have their needs met on a priority basis.

While the member is right that there have been challenges, the ministry and its staff continue to address them, and there have been considerable improvements over the past few months.

S. Simpson: Before I ask the next question, I'll flag that just after five o'clock we're going to move to multiculturalism, just so the minister knows. I also believe my friend from Delta South has some questions related to employment programs. I know that Ms. Bond, I believe, covers both those areas. If she's in the precinct, if she comes into the chamber, then the member for Delta South could get her questions related to that. She will be here in five minutes or so? That's great. Thank you.

On the questions related to the wait-list, could the minister tell us what has been the result of those problems in terms of how it has affected people, in terms of periods of time they've had to wait or delays in being able to get service because of problems around wait-lists? I understand that a lot of people came into the system without having additional staffing at that time, and that creates a complication.

Could the minister tell us what the problem is there? What was the impact of that problem on people who were recipients? More specifically, how is it being addressed? Are there additional staff being brought in? How is that being addressed so that we don't face it in the present? In the future, hopefully, demand will go down.

[1550]

Hon. H. Bloy: We experienced a significant increase around Christmas, and some of our challenges were related to it being that time of the year. Since that time, regional staff have worked hard to address the number of incoming applications, and we are more in line with our service standards. Service requests that are not immediate in nature will be actioned within five business days.

[1555]

We continue to pursue an active hiring initiative to maintain a full complement of front-line staff at all times. I am particularly pleased at staff's ability to manage during these periods so that people with needs have been met.

S. Simpson: Maybe we'll get back to this at a later time. It's going to take some time, I can tell.

On a related matter, I have heard on numerous occasions about challenges related to the automated phone system: people talking about getting into the phone system and dropped calls and ending up on dead lines and a whole array of challenges related to the automated phone system for people calling in.

[ Page 6849 ]

Can the minister tell us whether he is aware of these problems, and if so, what action is being taken to improve that system?

[1600]

[D. Black in the chair.]

Hon. H. Bloy: Yes, I am aware, and I actually recently visited the call centre responsible for providing services to Vancouver Island and for provincial programs. The people have responded very positively to the introduction of phone service. In fact, over 1.5 million phone calls came in the first year.

Some examples of how we are looking to improve these services. In the Interior we've extended the hours of call into the evening. We are consulting with experts in the delivery of phone-based services about how to make them more effective. Our ministry isn't the only part of government that delivers services by phone. We are looking to share our common experiences and maximize our capacity by providing services to citizens over this channel.

S. Simpson: I want to make sure that I understood the minister correctly. I didn't hear the minister recognizing that there were problems with the system. Is the minister suggesting that he doesn't believe that there have been problems with the phone system?

Hon. H. Bloy: Yes, I am aware of the problems.

S. Simpson: Could the minister tell us whether there's been some assessment done to determine how many people got caught in that system — with dropped calls, with lost calls, people who weren't able to connect?

[1605]

If so, what steps have been taken with the people doing…? I assume it's technology and software combined. So what steps have been taken to correct that, and who pays for those corrections? Is it the people we bought the service, that system, from, or is it the taxpayer?

[1610]

Hon. H. Bloy: We're really pleased with the responses that we're getting on the phone system and the responses that we're getting in other provinces across Canada. The people's experiences very much depended on the part of the province they are calling from. In some areas called, they received service in one or two minutes; in other areas they may take 20 to 25 minutes. We are aware that some of the calls are lost due to high volume, and we do not have a reliable database to report on this.

There have been no additional system costs to the province. We are pursuing continued improvements through our hiring strategy and are seeking advice from experts in this area and consulting with our cross-government colleagues.

S. Simpson: I'm going to move to another area. I don't know whether Ms. Bond is going to be with us soon.

In 2010 legislation was passed regarding outstanding warrants. Essentially, recipients who have outstanding arrest warrants may not be eligible for income assistance, for hardship assistance, etc. When I spoke yesterday to some of the staff, I believe they stated estimates…. They stated that there had been 494 requests for warrants, 237 verifications of the warrants, but that only one person was cut off service as a result of that. I believe that it's the Solicitor General's ministry that does the review and then provides the information.

Could the minister confirm whether it's correct that of that series, of the almost 500 requests that were done, only one person was cut off service as a result of that?

Hon. H. Bloy: We checked last night and have updated and confirm that the number that have been issued warrants and have been cut off of income assistance is actually four.

S. Simpson: So is that four people in total from June 1, 2010 — from the enactment of the legislation — till the present? I see a staffer nodding, so I'll accept that that is accurate.

Could the minister tell us: what are the costs related to doing these warrant checks that have related to four people being cut off?

[1615]

Hon. H. Bloy: The cost to date for the ministry is $10,000.

S. Simpson: So $10,000. If I'm correct here — and I understand the minister won't have a number for another ministry, so I'm not expecting a number — that would be the cost for this ministry. But would it be fair to assume that there would be costs related to Public Safety and Solicitor General, for them to provide the reviews or the work that they do, or are there other ministries that play a role in this, maybe other than Solicitor General, who would also have costs related?

Just an acknowledgment of that. I know that the minister probably wouldn't have those numbers for other ministries, but are there other ministries that would also acquire costs for this?

Hon. H. Bloy: As far as we're aware, that is the total cost for the warrant search.

S. Simpson: Considering that out of 500-odd requests for warrants and processes, four people in some fashion got cut off…. Maybe I'll get to that question in a moment.

On the ministry's website it says: "The ministry will check for a warrant when an applicant or recipient dis-

[ Page 6850 ]

closes they have a warrant, or is unsure if they are subject to a warrant, or if the ministry is provided information that indicates the existence of a warrant or at the minister's discretion."

Could the minister give, maybe, an example of a situation of what type of information would come to the minister that might provide the minister with confirmation of the existence or indicate the existence of a warrant, other than self-disclosure? What kind of information would be available?

[1620]

Hon. H. Bloy: Our experience is that the majority of these cases are self-disclosed. They could also be disclosed from a law enforcement agency to us.

S. Simpson: For that to occur, would that be an instance where they would make this available, or does the ministry make requests of law enforcement agencies for information on applicants?

Hon. H. Bloy: We've never made a request for the information from law enforcement.

S. Simpson: I want to move to a question, maybe just one or two more questions, in relation to this. Is there any checking of warrants for people who are current recipients — not applicants but people who are existing recipients? Are they also required to give that information, or are there checks for them?

Hon. H. Bloy: Yes, it's a question that we have on the ministry's monthly request for continued assistance, which the recipients submit back to us each month.

S. Simpson: Moving to a bit of a different topic. This is the issue of caseloads versus no caseloads.

The ministry moved a number of years ago away from the notion of caseloads — workers who carried a caseload of a number of clients and worked with those clients on an ongoing basis — to the current system, which I believe essentially is that somebody phones in, a client phones in, and they are serviced by whoever takes that call, whoever the duty person is. They provide whatever service or interaction there is.

There obviously is a significant debate about whether one system is better than the other or whether it makes no difference in terms of the services.

My question to the minister is: has the ministry done any evaluation of the caseload versus no caseload model, and have they done that evaluation from the perspective of both the workers and the consumers of the service, the clients? Has there been any evaluation done?

[1625]

Hon. H. Bloy: There hasn't been a formal study on this topic, but the ministry does continue to examine trends for people's time on income assistance. There hasn't been any difference in people's time spent on assistance attributable to the move away from a caseload-specific model.

Furthermore, designated workers are available when it is necessary for a client to maintain a consistent working relationship with one ministry worker.

S. Simpson: The reality is that the vast majority of people clearly receive their service from whoever has the duty roster for the day, and that's fine. Some people believe that that system makes the most sense. I'm not convinced of that, but it would certainly be valuable to know that.

The minister talks about one consideration, which is length of time on income assistance, and that's an important factor. It wouldn't be the only factor, though, if you were doing a proper evaluation, I'm sure. It doesn't say much about what it does in terms of the service the staff believe that they're providing.

I know, from conversations that I've had with line staff of the ministry, that some of them feel a frustration with this. They don't feel that they necessarily have the opportunity to provide the best possible service when they don't get to build the relationship with people that a caseload model allows them and affords them.

[1630]

My question, then, is: does the ministry have any intention — and if not, why not? — to do an evaluation of whether this model makes sense in the long term, particularly, as we spoke earlier, about poverty reduction and breaking that cycle of poverty and some assessment as to whether, in fact, it might improve the situation for people on assistance to break that cycle if they were working on an ongoing and more consistent basis with workers, particularly for people who probably are on the employable side, who are looking to get off the system as quickly as possible — that there may be some advantage there.

So my question, again, to the minister is: since there's been no formal evaluation, is there any intention to do a formal evaluation of this at any time in the future, and if not, why wouldn't you do it?

[1635]

Hon. H. Bloy: You know, the member is correct. There are varying points of view about what works best. The ministry is committed to a multichannel approach in providing services. Phone service has proven very popular, as have self-service and office visits. It is extremely difficult to envision a caseload-based model in a multichannel environment.

I agree with the member that focus needs to be on helping people get back to work. Multichannel affords the best opportunity to work with people on employment plans and refer to employment-related services, where the one-to-one client interface is more critical.

[ Page 6851 ]

S. Simpson: I thank the minister for that answer. I believe that the minister was going to ask for just a couple of minutes. After that, the member for Delta South, I believe, has a series of questions, and then we'll be moving on to discussing the multiculturalism piece at that point, following that.

We still have a series of questions around disabilities. We have community living tomorrow. So we'll have some conversation over the evening or whatever with staff, with the House Leaders, about how we fit this all in. We'll figure out how to do that. We'll get through those questions and the multiculturalism, hopefully, in that time. With that, I'll sit down.

Hon. H. Bloy: Hon. Chair, I ask for a five-minute break.

The Chair: Committee will recess for five minutes.

The committee recessed from 4:38 p.m. to 4:46 p.m.

[D. Black in the chair.]

V. Huntington: I'd just like to comment on the earlier discussion of the community volunteer program. Our office has been advised that the wait-list has not moved for two years. With 7,000 names on it, I doubt whether it is going to show much movement, given the budget attached to the program.

I guess my advice would be that the ministry consider — I don't know — dropping the program if people are being expected to volunteer and wait all of these years while they're volunteering to obtain the supplement. It seems to be a chicken-and-egg thing that isn't working terribly well for those people who sit on the wait-list and yet volunteer. So I think we all look forward to whatever options you're considering.

I'd like to move to the employment skills program and, I guess, the business transition program. Some time ago I wrote to the minister's predecessor with the concern that the decision to include the Delta employment skills program in the 27 programs that have been dropped was, in my estimation, ill-considered. I received a reply back to what I thought was a very reasonable explanation of my concerns, and I'd like to just canvass those a bit with the minister now.

The minister advised that other programs in Ladner and Richmond could cover the clients that were part and parcel of the Delta employment skills program or provide the services, and that is quite…. I won't say it's untrue, but it's not the case. The Delta employment skills program has quite unique services that it provides, and a number of clients are sent from Richmond to Delta in order to access those specific services. It is a very different program to the one that is generally offered in most of the other offices.

Also, the numbers of individuals that come from Richmond to the Delta program are staggering, and the Richmond office cannot handle their clients as they exist now.

One of the reasons the ministry may not have heard of this problem is an issue that I came upon when meeting with some of these organizations within the Delta area. I was attending a meeting, parked my car, got out of my car to go into the building, received a phone call and was told that I could not attend the meeting because they had just remembered a clause in the RFP which forbids proponents to attempt to communicate directly or indirectly with any elected official of the province. "In the event a proponent lobbies the province in relation to this request for proposals, the proponent's proposal may be disqualified."

So the groups, in recollecting this clause in the RFP, said: "We can't talk to you. We're not talking to you about the proposals. That's not why we asked you here. We wanted to talk to you about the impact of the business transformation program, but we don't dare talk to you."

[1650]

Minister, I'd like to know whether you are aware of that clause in the RFP for these proposals.

Hon. H. Bloy: First, I want to respond to the member. There's nothing in the RFP that prevents an organization or individual from talking to an elected official about unrelated issues to the RFP. The confidentiality and the no-lobbying clauses are there to protect the process and the proponents. They are standard clauses in all government requests for proposals.

V. Huntington: Let me assure the member that that clause and the impact it had on organizations that were needing to speak to their member was significant. They absolutely could not talk to me. They talked to me completely off the record. They were afraid to meet with me. They were afraid to come into my office, and it didn't matter whether the discussion related to the RFP or to another issue. They were estopped because of the fear they had of that clause. I just want to let the minister know that that was what happened as a result of that clause in the RFP.

I would like to just go back and emphasize that the Delta employment skills program situated in Ladner services a lot of the clients out of the Richmond catchment area, and some of the people from Surrey are also sent down to this particular program. The other organizations in Ladner are not going to be able to cover off the same types of services they have provided.

[1655]

I would really like yourself — the minister's office and his staff — to reconsider precisely what services are being offered and whether in fact the Richmond office is

[ Page 6852 ]

capable of serving its catchment area as it stands now. They tell me they are not. I know that they send a number of people on a regular basis to the Ladner office.

Secondly, the business transformation program is doing away entirely with the office, but even more importantly, it is leaving a significant gap in Delta, almost a year-long gap, as the office is closed. I've also mentioned that in my letter. There will be no services offered in Delta for up to a year until the new program gets going.

I have been asked.... Well, I have heard on a number of occasions that there is a deep concern within the programs that exist now that this service will no longer be available in Delta at all for the next year. There is nothing to cover off,

whereas in other areas there seems to be program consistency.

I wonder if the minister could speak to that issue of the gap in service to Delta and whether he could see at least the services extended throughout the period of the business transformation program.

Hon. H. Bloy: We will not be extending the contract after the agreement reaches its natural end date on May 31. We are working with the DESP to ensure that all clients are effectively transitioned to one of the six service providers who provide the same services in the area.

V. Huntington: It's so disappointing when no one will listen, which is sort of the cry from the entire province. We're telling you that the service is not provided by other organizations, that for a period of approximately a year there will be no service provider in Delta at all, and all residents of Delta will have to go to Richmond and/or Surrey.

Furthermore, when the new program comes into place in April 2012, the office is slated to be in North Delta. Originally there were going to be two offices, but for some reason, the second one got dropped, so south Delta is left without one. So the office in North Delta....

For some reason, the ministry will not hear the fact that the transportation between south Delta and North Delta looks great on a map but doesn't really exist in reality. It is almost impossible to efficiently access North Delta. South Delta naturally gravitates to Richmond, not to North Delta, and for a period of a year you're leaving my entire community without service in Delta. Chilliwack has two and is going to maintain two, but not Delta.

[1700]

I would like to know what the reasoning is behind this when we are trying to say that the existing services offered in Delta do not offer the same services presently provided by Delta Employment Skills.

Hon. H. Bloy: You know, I want to thank the members across for their passion and for what they believe in, in working with their clients. But I want to assure you that we've had real analysis and thought process on this.

In 2009 the province inherited six federal programs delivered through more than 400 contractors. All labour market development agreements were reviewed for client service, types of service provided, results. Decisions not to extend or to end were based on low demand and/or similar employment services available in the community. Client service is the first and foremost when making these decisions.

[1705]

As a result, 268 agreements were identified for extension to March 31, 2012; ten agreements were identified for an early end date of January 31, 2011; and 17 agreements were identified for no further extension beyond their current contract end date. Clients will continue to have access to programs and services in their communities. We have talked to the remaining service providers to ensure that clients will be effectively serviced in that area.

V. Huntington: With great respect, Minister, I have received that standard answer three times now — not just from you but through correspondence with the former minister, precisely the same words. What I am trying to say to you and to your officials is...

The Chair: Member, will you remember to...?

V. Huntington: I'm sorry, Madam Chair.

...that an error has been made in the assessment of the Delta South situation, and I would like it to be reviewed.

I guess what I'm saying and hoping the minister hears is that this is obviously something he has to take care of out of his office. He should review the situation personally, in my opinion, and try and look at this with an open eye to what the member is saying and what constituents are saying.

The clients will not be served in the same manner, nor will it be convenient for clients of Delta to reach what is going to be the new office, in addition to which there is practically a year's gap in service in my community as a result of these decisions. The officials won't even consider an extension of the contract to cover that gap. There are problems, and I sincerely hope the minister personally considers the issue.

M. Elmore: Thank you to the minister and the staff for the opportunity to raise some questions about multiculturalism. I just have a few questions.

As I've been meeting with community groups, I wanted to get some input and some feedback in terms of their experience not only with provincial government programs but their experiences in the communities and also canvassing for suggestions and solutions for improving situations in the communities.

To that end, just in terms of reviewing the history of the multiculturalism policy here that we enjoy in

[ Page 6853 ]

British Columbia and looking back, the federal multiculturalism policy was implemented in 1971 by Prime Minister Trudeau, primarily with the policy goals of promoting national unity and promoting human rights. Through the evolution of that, in 1982 we saw the federal multiculturalism policy embedded in the context of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and with having it put out as a multicultural act federally in 1988. Now in British Columbia it was put into the B.C. Multiculturalism Act in 1996.

In terms of the evolution, we've seen that evolution in Canada in terms of our multiculturalism policy, from the original focus on ethnicity-based funding to encourage ethnic groups to self-organize, to develop and to respond to the needs of new immigrants, primarily programs to tackle racism and also to deal with issues that newcomers face in terms of settlement and integration into Canada.

I think one interesting point in terms of looking at our provincial multiculturalism policy is that.... Federally anyways, there is a central theme of multiculturalism, a consistent theme that it always included the issue of citizenship as a central concern. It's primarily in the federal context, but I think it also has some relevance provincially. It brings, to my mind, the challenge or the tension, primarily with the temporary foreign workers program — I know that's not officially under your area; it's been separated — but just in terms of immigration and multiculturalism, those issues coming together.

[1710]

I would also argue that from those origins in the '70s and the '80s to today the multiculturalism policy has become successfully embedded in our society at the national, provincial and municipal level, as well as in business, public life, unions, community organizations — you know, where we've really seen the adoption of many different multiculturalism and diversity policies.

Just in terms of a little bit of my introduction. We've heard that the demographic trends are changing in Vancouver. Immigration is going to be the prime source of our labour market development. We're seeing nearly a hundred thousand new immigrants and people with temporary status coming in to British Columbia. It's really changing the face of, particularly, Metro Vancouver.

Some argue that in terms of the evolution, there's a need for a post-multiculturalism or to conceptualize a multiculturalism 2.0, where we're seeing a new Canada develop an identity shaped by diversity. That's a term that's popularized out of the Centre for Research and Information on Canada — a report that they put out.

Those are just a few of my opening reflections, I guess, in terms of multiculturalism policy in Canada and also the development provincially, and just to lead into some of my questions with regards to the provincial program on multiculturalism. My question is: could you tell me what the budget for multiculturalism currently is?

Hon. H. Bloy: To the member across the way, I appreciated your introduction and your enthusiasm for multiculturalism.

You know, in the provincial budget we have $625,000, and in the federal budget there's $1.85 million. I also want to let the member know that we also work very closely with Jobs, Tourism and Innovation to stay connected with the excellent programs for new Canadians.

[1715]

M. Elmore: Just a follow-up question to the minister: could you outline the spending breakdown for the budget, just generally?

Hon. H. Bloy: Hon. Chair, $1.5 million in programming funding for grants to community agencies. The remainder is spent on the administration of the Multicultural Advisory Council. I'd be pleased to invite the member across to the next meeting of the advisory council.

M. Elmore: Thanks to the minister for the invitation. I'd like to take him up on that offer.

I'm just wondering if you can tell me when the most recent annual report on multiculturalism was and if it's possible to get a copy. I'd looked on the website, and I just saw 2009. I'm just wondering if there is a more recent annual report.

Hon. H. Bloy: The 2009-10 has now been edited to reflect the change in the ministry, to Social Development. The ministry intends to table this during the current session. Once it's approved in the Legislature, the report will be made available on line. The ministry is currently soliciting the information from all the different government ministries and Crown corporations, and we'll be proceeding with the next report.

M. Elmore: Thanks for the answer. My next question has to do with the concern…. I have attended — last year we had the hearings — the poverty hearings. As well, I was meeting with organizations in terms of the experience of racial minorities, experiencing racism in their environment and daily lives, and particularly the impacts of that of a systemic nature.

[1720]

Through those public hearings, it came out that of the four groups most likely to experience poverty, refugees and new immigrants were among those groups, and also that visible minorities, recent immigrants and refugees have consistently lower incomes and employment rates. As well, we see a disproportionate incarceration of African Canadians and aboriginal people and a higher incidence of racial and sexual harassment in the workplace.

So I'm just wondering what policies are being undertaken to address some of these systemic problems.

[ Page 6854 ]

Hon. H. Bloy: I just wanted to restate what I said earlier. The remainder of the moneys was spent on administration and the multicultural advisory committee — okay? We appreciate the member's concerns about the social justice areas she's identified. That's why we are so pleased that multiculturalism has become a part of the Ministry of Social Development.

[1725]

EmbraceBC was launched in 2009 to fund initiatives that directly address racism and promote multiculturalism at individual, institutional and community levels.

M. Elmore: Thank you to the minister. I'd just like to follow up additionally in terms of the concerns I have around the experience of immigrants, new immigrants and visible minority people in the workforce. We're going to be seeing that immigration…. Some would say that it will likely account for all of our labour force growth currently and in the near future.

However, in the last statistics that I was able to identify, immigrants have an employment rate that is two times the general population, averaged over the last decade. Then we see a significant lower income for recent immigrants — 28 percent is the statistic I have. Visible minorities are 15 percent below the national average, and it's also lower than that for aboriginal people.

In addition to that and compounded by that is that many immigrant and visible minority workers also face underemployment or precarious employment — temporary, part-time, contractual or self-employment — and are also concentrated in low-wage sectors.

That underutilization of that sector of the workforce also represents a loss of productivity and a loss of vibrancy in our economy. I was just wondering if the minister can address programs and initiatives to rectify this situation and to also look at more effectively integrating all workers into our economy and our society.

[1730]

Hon. H. Bloy: In recognition of the importance of placing a focus on multiculturalism in the workforce, we have embedded the multiculturalism program with our employment programs. The Safe Harbour program supports workplaces to provide equitable treatment to clients and customers as well as inclusive commitment.

To emphasize again, we work very closely with Jobs, Tourism and Innovation to stay connected with their excellent programs for new Canadians, including their employment program.

M. Elmore: I'm interested also in the issue of…. I was wondering if there are available statistics on the incidence of racially motivated crimes. I was surprised to learn that on the national level, the most common hate crimes, the most prevalent by 60 percent, are against racial minorities, followed by religion, sexual orientation and ethnicity.

I was wondering if the minister has access to those statistics and also if there is a hate crime data collection strategy.

[1735]

Hon. H. Bloy: The RCMP keeps statistics, although they are not current. We'd be happy to forward them to you.

However, we've had staff working on the hate crimes task force. We're also looking at measuring hate crimes as part of our overall business plan.

M. Elmore: Just to clarify, monitoring hate crimes in terms of the multiculturalism plan?

[L. Reid in the chair.]

Hon. H. Bloy: Yes.

M. Elmore: All right, okay. Thanks.

I'm curious about how our public service reflects diversity at all levels, particularly upper management. This is the issue, again, of ensuring representation, really, at all levels of society. We'd like to see it representative of the population — that the population is reflected at all levels. So concretely, I guess I can ask what the makeup is in the public service, if you have statistics around that and, also, measures in place to ensure that there is representation at all levels.

One reference point that strikes me is in terms of this chamber. The legislative chamber, our 85 elected officials — I guess I could do the math myself — are not necessarily reflective of the numbers in our society. We don't see that keeping pace at our elected levels provincially, federally or municipally. Certainly, I think that is a goal — to try to overcome those barriers to ensure that those inequities are addressed.

I'm curious to hear if you know what the numbers are and also the plans in place to be proactive in ensuring there is representation.

[1740]

Hon. H. Bloy: This is a Public Service Agency initiative, and we are working actively with the Public Service Agency on a strategy to address diversification of the B.C. Public Service. We consider this to be a priority moving forward and are working with our colleagues at the Public Service Agency on real action to make this happen.

This is a topic of keen importance to the deputy ministers, and they are actively in discussion to increase diversity. We will check with the PSA on what they have in terms of statistics and forward them to you.

But I did want to comment on your other portion about more diversity not only in the House and not only at the municipal level but at the federal level. I've got

[ Page 6855 ]

a strong background in the Korean community. But in many Southeast Asian communities….

There are so many great people there that work hard and that I keep encouraging. But you have to step out of your community too. You have to be involved in the whole province.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that we have to bring more people into this whole mixture of what we have for a better Canada, because British Columbia is recognized as a multicultural centre for Canada.

There's one little statistic I learned, but you can't ask me for the source. I'm not sure. There are over 180 religions in British Columbia — cultures and linguistics. So I do look forward to working in and encouraging this area.

M. Elmore: Thanks to the minister. I was just following up on that. I look forward to receiving the statistics.

I'm also curious in terms of…. I guess this would more be a cross-ministry effort, but do you track or do you have input or are there policies in place in terms of the appointment to boards or commissions or committees across the ministries in terms of representation from diverse communities?

[1745]

Hon. H. Bloy: The policy for board appointments is provincially set through the board resourcing office. We are aware, through our boards, that they prioritize regionally in ethnic diversity.

M. Elmore: Just the point that the importance of ensuring there is good representation has a number of different benefits, as I'm sure you're familiar, in terms of ensuring that more viewpoints are brought to the table, also ensuring that a wide variety of communities feel that they're reflected and can see their interests at the table.

Sometimes it's a subtle thing. It may not necessarily relate to committees or boards that sit behind closed doors. But certainly, in a public realm there's an impact in terms of acknowledging to the wide variety of constituents that they feel they're part of the decision-making and that their interests are reflected.

I'm also interested to look into that in terms of the specifics around the board resourcing office, so I'll follow up with that.

I have a few questions. I'd like to hear about just how the minister, through multiculturalism.... What are the comprehensive sets of equity and access policies — for example, policies including employment equity, antiracism, human rights, workplace harassment, access to services, multilingual services, etc? I'm interested to hear how those policies are implemented, not only, obviously, within Social Development and Multiculturalism but also throughout all the ministries.

Hon. H. Bloy: I appreciate the member's question across from me on multiculturalism and what we're trying to do. EmbraceBC has six program elements: arts engagement; interfaith bridging; organizing against racism and hate; community engagement and dialogue; inclusive leadership, development and mentorship; and public education.

The six program elements provide urban and rural communities with an opportunity to access funding for diverse strategies to address racism and promote multiculturalism.

[1750]

M. Elmore: I'm also wondering if there are requirements, in terms of the application for grants, for organizations to demonstrate issues and principles of diversity, access and equity measures in their proposals — so specific to multiculturalism, but if you also could comment in terms of grants from other ministries.

Hon. H. Bloy: I want to let the member across know that gaming grants are the responsibility of the Ministry of Community, Sport and Cultural Development. I want to assure the member across the way that in the RFP for EmbraceBC projects we require the proponents to demonstrate links with diverse groups. We assess proposals to ensure there is a diverse representation of sectors and organizations.

[1755]

M. Elmore: Thank you for the answer. I'm wondering if you can address the issue of whether there is outcome-based planning — so evaluation on the basis of targets, plans and performance indicators, in terms of an annual evaluation of diversity, performance and progress; an objective measure in terms of statistics, evaluating the success of the many programs that the minister has outlined.

Hon. H. Bloy: We evaluate all of our programs to ensure that the funded projects achieve the goals that they identified. Each funded project must have measures and an evaluation plan.

M. Elmore: As I've been talking with groups and individuals and also canvassing in terms of issues and concerns, it strikes me that there are two very distinctive groups in terms of the need for services and also just challenges in our evolving society — specifically, the needs and concerns of new immigrants coming in and their need for services, being able to access services in their language specific and being able to provide support for them to transition, find a job, adapt in Canada, with all those numerous skills that are needed for that.

I wanted to just address the issue of — and this is with reference to…. Some have called it the evolution

[ Page 6856 ]

of multiculturalism in Canada, or multiculturalism 2.0, where from the 1970s, with the original multiculturalism policy, now…. I guess this would also include myself. My mother came in, in the '60s, for example. I'm born here. I represent kind of the changing face — and my generation and younger as well.

A number of my friends, when I talk to them about, "What does multiculturalism mean to you? How do you see yourself or conceptualize yourself in Canada? What does that mean...?" There's a difference in terms of the children — second generation, third generation — who were born here and grew up, and their parents, who may have emigrated from other countries. They have a different experience in terms of what it means to be in a multicultural society.

[1800]

So my question is…. I'm interested in this in terms of.... It's been raised to me that there's a need to really be more effective in terms of tapping into that diversity. It's often stated that it's a great potential that we have, and it's an evolving area in terms of being able to tap into and effectively utilize that creative potential of that changing generation.

Another example is that often.... So new immigrants coming in. Then also their children often experience different.... You know, they're able to integrate more quickly once they get into the school system. For example, as well, it's been posed to me that it's the children of the immigrant parents who are often the conduit between their parents and mainstream society.

My question is just in terms of multiculturalism. It's more, I think, mainstream. Canada has been characterized as being a leader in terms of being able to tap into the potential of that, often called the diversity quotient or the cultural intelligence quotient, in terms of being able to ensure that we utilize all our assets of social capital effectively.

I'm interested: has there been any discussion or programs to address that? It is an area that's more.... Certainly, we hear more in terms of the business community being able to recognize that, the changing face of cultural relations in the workforce. I'm also interested to hear if that's something that is being thought about or implemented in the ministry or across ministries.

Hon. H. Bloy: I want to assure the member that what she's saying is right and very encouraging, because EmbraceBC is exactly that — ensuring that we fully embrace all of our citizens. EmbraceBC aligns with the act to provide all British Columbians with an understanding of the benefits of living in a culturally diverse society. Supporting projects and recognizing the importance of cultural diversity and the elimination of racism is critical as B.C. continues to grow in its diversity.

I'd like to mention again about Jobs, Tourism and Innovation providing programs totalling $26.8 million to support labour market attachment of immigrants. We work closely with JTI to ensure that the programs are aligned.

[1805]

M. Elmore: Just following in terms of diversity, it's also characterized as a competitive advantage. Certainly in the business world, my friends tell me that it's something they articulate as not moving beyond accommodation and competing and really looking to leverage and be effective in terms of bringing together culturally diverse staff to also bring their talent and to more accurately serve their client base and their customer base.

The one specific that was told to me, in terms of the second- and third-generation descendants of immigrants — our young children of immigrants — is that it's often the children, who have a combined social, economic and cultural mobility, that have been the natural bridge between immigrant communities and what is considered mainstream Canada and that there's a need to make diversity a priority in all areas and also a need to make Canadians aware of the lack of diverse representation in media, schools, the public sector and different areas and the need for inclusion — visibly diverse models for young children, to create in them a familiarity with diversity.

I'm wondering: are there any future plans in terms of an integrated vision or model looking forward in the future to effectively embrace diversity and encourage full participation?

Hon. H. Bloy: I can assure the member across the way that we do have a vision, and it's something that this new ministry has been working on and continues to work on. The vision is that British Columbia is a model society that embraces the cultures and traditions of its people with opportunities for all to live and grow.

M. Elmore: I recently had the good fortune of attending the metropolis conference, which was held in Vancouver. I believe it was the fifth annual conference held across Canada but convened in Vancouver. I'm wondering what initiatives there are in terms of research or investment in conferences that bring together stakeholders. What I liked about the Metropolis model is it brought together government, community groups, academics in that model. So I'm wondering if there are any initiatives underway.

[1810]

Hon. H. Bloy: EmbraceBC is what you were talking about. We have two programs that highlight it. Organizing Against Racism and Hate funding supports projects that enhance a community's ability to effectively address racism and hate crime. As part of the progressive three-year, three-step process, communities work to

[ Page 6857 ]

develop capacity, to foster community engagement and to build local community action and sustainability plans to address racism and hate. Organizing Against Racism and Hate replaces the critical incidence response model.

Community engagement and dialogues funding supports projects that foster trust and relationship-building between various sectors of the government and diverse cultural communities, including aboriginal and non-aboriginal peoples, youth and elders, and recent immigrants and longtime residents of Canada.

M. Elmore: Just further to that, I'm wondering if there have been any provincial conferences that have been organized or that are being planned, or if there have been in the recent past.

Hon. H. Bloy: We offer opportunities for communities to dialogue, whether at the provincial or local level, through EmbraceBC.

M. Elmore: I'm just curious if there have been any specific provincial initiatives, gatherings, conferences in the last couple years — and proceedings available from that, specifically.

Hon. H. Bloy: We can send you a list of our funded projects.

M. Elmore: I'm wondering, also, if there are plans underway or programs in place in terms of coordinating with municipalities along the principles of promoting multiculturalism and diversity.

[1815]

Hon. H. Bloy: Municipalities are welcome to apply for EmbraceBC funding in collaboration with JTI. We work with the intergovernmental steering committee, which includes municipalities.

M. Elmore: In terms of the intergovernmental committee, is that specific on diversity and implementing the policies and priorities of multiculturalism, or is that a broader coordination and collaboration?

[1820]

Hon. H. Bloy: Your question relates to a JTI committee. It's called the Welcoming and Inclusive Communities Inter-governmental Steering Committee. It is an opportunity for local governments to provide their perspectives on what is happening on the ground in their communities.

M. Elmore: My interest is in terms of the coordination through provincial, municipal, and I'm also interested federally around these issues. Just wondering if there are partnerships in place in coordination with the federal government.

Hon. H. Bloy: We are actively involved in the Canada-provincial-territorial committee on multiculturalism, which is led by Canada.

M. Elmore: Just wondering, also, if you can elaborate in terms of some of the areas of coordination, programs involved and….

Hon. H. Bloy: We'd be happy to send you the information on B.C.'s involvement in the committee.

M. Elmore: Thanks a lot. My last question for today is just in terms of following up. If there is specific research that is funded or research priorities that are identified that the ministry is supporting, I'm very interested to hear about that in the areas of immigration or any issues around diversity, particularly as impacting the economy.

Hon. H. Bloy: Noting the time, our staff would be pleased to set up a technical briefing for you and to review all the details that you would require.

I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.

Motion approved.

The committee rose at 6:25 p.m.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

Committee of Supply (Section B), having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again.

Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again.

Hon. P. Bell moved adjournment of the House.

Motion approved.

Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 1:30 tomorrow afternoon.

The House adjourned at 6:27 p.m.

PROCEEDINGS IN THE

DOUGLAS FIR ROOM

Committee of Supply

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF

PUBLIC SAFETY AND SOLICITOR GENERAL

(continued)

The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); D. Horne in the chair.

[ Page 6858 ]

The committee met at 2:31 p.m.

On Vote 38: ministry operations, $605,202,000 (continued).

The Chair: We're currently debating the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General's estimates.

K. Corrigan: Minister, we had left it this morning with a couple of questions about PRIME-BC. I'm not sure whether the intention was for the minister to respond to those questions now with the information that I think you were going to gather, or was that for later?

Hon. S. Bond: Perhaps the member opposite wouldn't mind just beginning with one or two of the questions. I know it was related to the board of directors. If the member opposite would like to highlight which question she'd like us to respond to, we'd be happy to.

K. Corrigan: To the minister: I knew you were going to ask me that. I was asking about the makeup of the board and where the control is and who is on that board. I believe that the specific question I didn't get an answer to yet, because we ran out of time, was: who appoints the board of PRIME-BC?

Hon. S. Bond: There is actually a subsidiary corporation. The board of directors is actually elected by the shareholder, so certainly not by the government.

K. Corrigan: Okay, elected by the shareholder. I'm sorry. I'm not sure who the shareholder is.

[1435]

Hon. S. Bond: The shareholder is E-Comm, and that stands for Emergency Communications for Southwest B.C., and in fact, E-Comm is made up of municipal representatives.

K. Corrigan: So E-Comm then decides who is going to be on the PRIMECorp board of directors?

Hon. S. Bond: That is correct.