VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. Tuesday, June 30, 1981 NO. 69

·June 30,1981 The House met at 3.00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chai~ Tape No.2864 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : Order, please~ ah-1 Pursuant to

Section 29, Sub-section 1 of the Parliamentary Cornrnissioner(Ombudsman)Act,the sixth annual report of the Parliamentary Commissioner was received in my office a short while ago. I now table the report and will arrange to have copies distributed to all hon. members very shor~ly. STATEMENTS BY ~1INISTERS ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the government and indeed on behalf of all the citizens throughout our Province,I want to pay tribute today to a young Canadian,Terry Fox,whose short life ended on Sunday.

Terry,especially this past year,represented a tremendous source of hope and inspiration for Canadians all across this land. Terry Fox was truly not your average Canadian. How many of us, I wonder, would have the capacity to withstand the trauma of the loss of a limb and think it not an obstacle but a challenge, a problem to be surmounted. Terry not only met the challenge 1 but he went on to pursue goals which most of us,who have no disability,would not have even contemplated.

Throughout his Marathon of Hope across the country,all Canadians learned something of Terry's incredible courage and strenath,qualities which in him seemed to be boundless and immeasurable. With his uncommon drive and determination, Terry Fox captured the attention of the entire nation and with it our hearts, our affection and our support.By any comparison,Terry Fox is a hero,for he has accomplished in a few months what few people achieve in a full lifetime. He has renewed our faith in the human capacity and 76511

June 30,1981 Tape No. 2864 ah-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: has demonstrated that even in the face of adversity there is always hope. It is after all only with hope and faith as mere human beings we are able to transend human barriers and reach new plateaus. Mr. Speaker, by his actions 'I'erry Fox has achieved his own inmortali ty , not of the physical kind, for this is beyond the reach of us all, but spiritually Terry's memory will always be with us an ever present reminder of human potential. The name of Terry Fox will always be synonymous with ho:?e and courage.

On behalf of the government and the people of this Province,I extend our warmth and sympathy to the family of Terry Fox on this untimely occasion. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. STIRLING: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday I made some comments similar to those made by the Premier when we were participating in a salute to Canada,and I thought it was appropriate, Mr.

Speaker, that on that great day, a day which we celebrated yesterday and the rest of Canada will be celebrating tomorrow ' the glorious birthday for Canada was a day on which Newfoundlanders remembered her war heros, the volunteers from the Royal Newfoundland Regiment. The Royal Newfoundland Regiment was almost wiped out on July 1,1916 at Beaumont Hamel. And on this day in 1981 we mourn the death of another hero, Terry Fox, 7657

June 30, 1981 Tape 2865 EC - 1 MR. STIRLING: a young man who started in St. John's his cross-country run to immortality. A day when we are reminded of the limitations of the body, Terry Fox reminds us of the immortality of the soul and the spirit. Mr. Speaker, including all of the politicians here in this House of Asse~hly and all of the politicians in Canada, Terry Fox was a young Canadian whose drive and determination did more to bring us together as one natibn, one Canada, than all of the politicians and all of the constitutional meetings in the last hundred years.

As the Premier said, and putting it in another way, Terry Fox gave his love unconditionally. It was not his job to do what he did. Nobody expected him to do it, nobody would have criticized him if he had not done it. He did it out of an unconditional love. And maybe we can use the memory,and the best way that we can repay Terry Fox is to build a great nation of Canada in the spirit of Terry Fox's drive, enthusiasm and desire for a great Canadian nation. I join the government and all those on this side of the House in extending our sympathy to the family. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): You have heard the motion.

Those in favour, 'Aye', contrary, 'Nay', carried. MR. ANDREWS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ANDREWS: Further statements. Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of Environment. Mr. Speaker, I wish to advise the hon. House of the action taken by my department following the emergency discharge of matacil from a spray plane last Thursday evening east of Sunday Lake near the Bay d'Espoir Highway. 7658

June 30, 1981 Tape 2865 EC - 2 MR. ANDREWS: Immediate instructions were given to increase the frequency of water sampling at the Gander and Glenwood water intake areas of Gander Lake on the remote possibility that some of the pesticide contamination of the lake may have occurred during the return of the aircraft . Early Friday morning meetings were held between Forestry and Environment personnel and the pilot of the aircraft. Officials were immediately dispatched by helicopter to search the area for evidence of matacil residue .

My colleague, the hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands and I also met with officials of our respective departments and the pilots in Gander later the same day:, and personally flew the area. During these flights no evidence of the pesticide was discernable. Howeve r, based on information obtained during this period , a plan was prepared 7659

June 30, 1981 Tape No.2866 SD - 1 MR. ANDREWS: for the collection and subsequent anal.vsi.., of water, soil and vegetation samples from the discharge area. At 6:00 a.m. on Saturday, our Supervisor of the Environmental Monitoring Programme and my Chief Environment officer for Central Newfoundland departed for the area by helicopter and spent twelve and one half hours, during which sixty-five samples were taken from forty­ two separate locations within the dumping area. All of these samples, together with those that were taken from Gander Lake on Friday and Saturday, were brought to St.

John's Sunday morning where they are presently undergoing analysis. The results of these additional fourteen water samples taken from Gander Lake show no measurable levels ofaminocarb, which is the active ingredient in matacil. Nevertheless, water sampling will continue in the water intake areas. Three air samples taken by monitors that were operating in the area of Glenwood to Gander during this period, during the period the spray plane was airborne, also show no measurable levels of aminocarb.

Priority is now being given to analysis of the water samples from the spill area, following which soil and vegetation samples will be analyzed. And I intend to release the results of these as soon as they become available and will report to the hon. House accordingly. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Leader of the Opposition has about one and a half minutes. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I am again disappointed and surprised that the minister has chosen to give a very brief statement when he surely now should be giving the detailed information.

He neglected to mention in his statement that although there was no room on the government aircraft to Gander, I did get to Gander in time to meet with the minister and that my colleague,the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk),who is also 766n

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2866 so - 2 MR. <='!'I RLING: our spokesman on Forestry , and I were in Gander by the time the government aircraft arrived and we went with the two ministers to the area. AN HON. MEMBER: (In audible) MR. STIRLING: Yes, the ministers graciously allowed us to accompany them .· Despite all the protest from the Minister of Fisheries (t1r . Morgan), tne two ministers did the honourable thing and took us along. And, Mr. Speaker, the truth of the matte~ is that nobody to this point knows where that was dumped, nobody.

There is no evidence of it, there was no evidence of it on Friday,and it was not until I made the suggestion to the ~tinister o£ Forestry (Mr . Power) that the pilot was taken out into the area; 4:00 p.m. on Friday afternoon the pilot had not been taken out into the area by the officials of the Minister of the Environment (Mr . Andrews) or the Minister of Forestry; the pilot had not been taken into the area to locate it. There are still many questions to be answered, Mr. Speaker, many questions that have not been answered to the satisfaction of the people in the area. Some of the questions; for example, 7661

.-\• June 30, 1981 Tape 2867 PK - 1 MR. STIRLING: have they now defined an area where the pilot says he thinks he dropped the load of 2,600 gallons of matacil? What kind of a definition has there been of that area? Is it ten miles long? Is it twenty miles long? Because on Friday, Mr. Speaker, nobody knew where that matacil was dumped. And at this stage there is no indication in- MR. NEARY: Or why it was. MR. STIRLING: -the minister's statement that they have any more information. I realize the time has run out, Mr. Speaker, and we will probably get back to it again in Question Period. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Further statements? The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural Mr. Speaker, as Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development I am pleased to announce the dates for the signing of the Canada/Newfoundland Native Peoples of Labrador Agreement will take place in Goose Bay on July 4, 1981. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GOUDJE: ~nd the signing of the Canada/ Newfoundland Native Peoples of Conne River Agreement will take place in Conne.River on July 5. It is important to note, Mr.

Speaker, that these agreements represent the mechanism by which the federal government discharges its constitutional responsibilities towards the native ?eoples of this Province. The programmes and services covered by these agreements have been ongoing for the past twenty-five years. It is important to note therefore that these agreements do not represent anything special for the Province and are not an new initiative. The federal government is constitutionally responsible for native peoples and in 7662

-- -~ -- -- June 30, '1981 Tape 2867 PK - 2 MR. STIRLING: recognition of this responsibility the Province and the federal government has co-operated in the delivery of services and programmes to native communities for the past twenty-five years ·. Mr. Speaker, the renegotiation process for these agreements have met with innumerable obstacles over the last t~Tenty months. However I the agreements have now been reached ,,,hich we have been prepared to sign for seven months and will provide greatly needed services for the designated native communities in Coastal Labrador and in Conne River.

The agreements are cost-shared between the provincial and federal governments and provide for a total expenditure of $43.8 million over five years. The Labrador agreement will account for $38.8 million' the Conne River agreement for $4 million. The co-ordinating committee will advise government on the allocation of funds to various programmes,in total five programme will be delivered under these agreements and, :tr.

Speaker,these are as follows: Community and Economic Development~ this programme is designed to enhance the social and economic development of native communities through such activities as community development projects, road construction, recreation programmes, entreperneurial training and the construction and operation of community council offices. Education -:programme; this programme provides funds for the operation of schools , construction of new facilities and the provision of special education programmes for native people.

Fisheries programme; this programme assists fish plants which in some of the designated communities provide high levels of employment and ensures that fishermen have a ready outlet for their catches. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GOUDIE: The housing programme assists natives in designated communities with the construction and maintenance of their homes. Northern Development programme; this 7663

,. June 30, 1981 Tape 2867 PK - 3 MR. GOUDIE: programme provides a variety of special services and financial support to communities such as depot operation, administrative support, consultative planning services and implementation of economic development projects. 7664

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2868 ow - 1 MR. J. GOUDIE: In Conne River, Mr. Speaker, the agreement will be concentrated on three of these programmes; Community and Economic Development 1 Education,and Housing. These pro~rammes are similar in content to those in Labrador. The signing of the Labrador Native Peoples Agreement at this time is opportune following closely the signing of the DREE subsidiary agreement for coastal Labrador. These two agree­ ments will represent an infusion of almost $78 million in coastal Labrador communities over the next five to six years.

While taken together these agreements represent a significant development thrust for the coastal communities,we must be cognizant of the differences. The DREE agreement is intended primarily for the Southern coastal communities and represents the commitment of both governments, both federal and provincial, to solving the economic problems of that area. The Native Peoples Agreement is intended for the Northern coastal communities and represents the constitutional responsibility of the Government of Canada to native peoples in these communi­ ties. reiterate my pleasure at In closing, Mr.

Speaker, let me the forthcoming signing of these two Native Peoples Agreements. Previous shared cost arrangements over the last twenty-five years have accom~lished a great deal for the native people in this Province and significant strides have been made in relieving the special problems experienced by the Indian and Inuit people. There remains, however, a great deal more that must be accomplished before a desireable level of social and economic development is realized.

The new agreements will resolve many of the constraints to develop­ ment and provide a way for governments to meet the ever growing needs of native people for new and--impr6v~a.-se:fv:tc~s:. -:~-- 7665

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2868 DW - 2 SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. G. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for Torngat Mountains has two minutes. MR. G. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, it is surprising that the Minister o£ Rural, Agricultural and Northern Develop­ ment (Mr. Goudie) can make such a fantastic statement in congratulating Ottawa when the Premier of this Province that is always confronting Ottawa nearly every day. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. G. WARREN: It is my pleasure, Mr.

Speaker, that this development, the Native Peoples Agreement plus the Labrador DREE agreement that was signed recently, we will take this $78 million,Mr. Speaker, and convert it into federal and provincial monies,you will notice that 90 per cent is coming from Mr. Ottawa. Mr. Speaker, I believe it is high time for this government to take a positive approach to Ottawa and look where all the money is coming from. Because, Mr. Speaker, only for Ottawa this Province, this government would not even recognize the natives of this Province. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Social Services.

MR. T. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table a statement given the media this morning on the establishment of an Alcohol and Drug Dependency Commission for the Province. It is a major step forward and certainly a great.expansion to a very critical programme that will help a lot of people. MR. E. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Eagle River. Mr. Speaker, we are quite pleased in having this announcement but really, after 31 years and after 484 years of our existence, do you not think it is a little late. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. 7666

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2869 EL - 1 DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I would like briefly to comment on a series of meetings which I attended in Victoria, B.C., last Thursday and Friday when representatives of all Prov­ incial governments met at the invitation of the Government of the Province of British Columbia in order to discuss the present state of the Canadian economy and the subject of federal-prov­ incial fiscal arrangements. MR. STIRLING: DR. COLLINS: Have you a copy of that for over here? It is over there.

As members undoubtably already know, federal-provincial fiscal arrangements are currently under re- view and will shortly be the subject of extensive discussions with the Federal Government with the aim of putting in place new and more appropriate arrangements at the beginning of fiscal '81-'82. I reported to the House a short time ago on a submission which my hon. colleague, the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) and myself made to the House of Commons Task Force on the same subject matter.

In regard to the state of the economy in our country, at Victoria there was unanimous experession of con­ cern on relations as they presently exist between the two levels of government. It was considered imperative that a spirit of co-operative federalism in our country must be renewed with the Federal Government joing wi .th the provinces in a new round of consultations. Canadian resources and skills are the envy of the world, yet economic performance remains far from sat­ isfactory.

The standard of living in Canada is not improving as it shouldt an accelerating inflation plus high interest rates are dampening growth prospects, allowing high levels of employ­ ment to persist, and imposing economic hardships on small bus­ inessmen and homeowners alike. A number of areas for federal-prov­ incial co-operation to improve the Canadian economy were identified. Energy issues must jointly be resolved as soon as possible. Measures to encourage investment and innovation must be put in 7667

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2869 EL - 2 DR. COLLINS: place. The huge federal budgetary defecit must be controlled through expenditure rationalization without shifting tax burdeRs onto provinces and to municipal­ ities. Inhibitions to economic development initiatives in the various regions must be identified and over­ come for the benefit of all Canadians. The economic policies of the federal and provincial governments must be co-ordinated.

It was agreed that these measures would go a long way to restore investor confidence in Canada,justified by our vast economic potential 1and which is of necessary prelude to the strengthen­ ing of the Canadian dollar with subsequent lowering of inflation and high interest rates. On the matter of fiscal arrangements, there was unanimous agreement that a strong equalization system is and must remain a key element of Confederation.

Although a number of innov~tive alternatives to the present method of cal­ culating equalization payments were examined, agreement was reached that the representative tax system currently in place reredned t-he most appropriate with certain adjustments made desir­ able in the light of experience. Emphasis was place on the fact that any reduction in payments to recipient provinces would be unaccept­ able and would lead to increased fiscal dispad. tJ.os. In regard to Established Programmes Financing arrangement important 7668

.• June 30, 1981 Tape 2870 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS : for the funding of health care and post-secondary education in all provinces,a unanimous consensus was reached on the basis that present arrangements had worked well, achieving all the federal objectives set out at their initiation in 1976. It was stressed that these transfers have not been a source of pressure on the federal deficit over the past five years but,rather, have already fallen below the cost increases necessary to maintain ~~esent levels of service.

Accordingly, the expressed intent of the federal govern­ ment to achieve a $1.5 billion reduction in these programmes over the next two years was completely unacceptable and unjustifiable. This point is to be made to the federal Finance Minister (Mr. MacEachen) at an early date. Other matters on which common viewpoints were developed included retirement income for aged Canadians and harmonization and non-fragmentation of the system of taxation in Canada. Mr.

Speaker, I feel sure that it is accurate to say that the Victoria meetings were productive for all those involved and should form the basis for useful and helpful discussions with the federal government over the next few months. On behalf of our Province, I was particularly pleased to have the opportunity to present the lea~ paper in discussing equalization,and also tohave received ~ very large measure of support from my colleagues in other provinces on the other topics that carne up for discussion. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle has approximately two and one-half minutes.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I should begin by noting that the minister has not done either the 7669

June 30, 1981 Tape 2870 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Leader of the Opposition or myself the courtesy of sending us a copy of the statement. DR. COLLINS: A copy of it went over to you. MR. ROBERTS: A copy went over? Well, all I can say is my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition,did not have it and I do not have it. I could not say it did not come over. Mr. Speaker, I was going to say before interruptions carne that I did not have the couLcesy of a copy in advance, nor did my colle~gue, the Leader of the Opposition, and as far as I know that is a truthful statement so I stand by it.

But having heard the minister's statement,! can understand why he chose not to send this one because he said nothing in his statement. MR. NEARY: Right on~ MR. ROBERTS: What he told us was there has been a meeting of the provincial Ministers of Finance in Victoria, a lovely city, a lovely time of the year to visit that city, and I hope they all had a grand time and I am glad they did.

Unfortunately, Sir, the minister's statement makes it quite clear that at least as far as he is aware, what was decided at Victoria, if anything, has nothing to do with the problems which confront the economy of this Province and of this country at this time, Now, I am not allowed to debate in response to a Ministerial Statement so I shall not, but I will note in response to the minister's statement that he gave us a fairly comprehensive list - not a long one but a fairly comprehensive list of the economic problems which confront Canada and this Province today.

He was great on that and he struck out completely in giving us any solutions. All he said is we must find measures to deal with energy, we must find measures to deal with the lack 7670

June 30, 1981 Tape 2870 EC - 3 MR. ROBERTS: of investment, we must find measures to deal with the fact that all governments are spending infinitely more than they take in and that is contributing significantly to the inflationary problems , to the increasing interest rates and to many of the other economic ills . 7 6 7 •j

-r June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2871 so - 1 MR. ROBERTS: I must add, Mr. Speaker, in closing the minister was lamentably weak in dealing with what is probably the single most important topic that 9onfronts him and his colleagues now, namely, the shape and the form that the federal/provincial financial arrangements are going to take in the next five year period.

The minister referred to the two great programmes under which money is made available} the Established Programme Financing arrangement- the EPF programme-and the Equalization programme, both of them, I may add , cornerstones in the Liberal vision of a national government that serves Canada,unlike an agency of the provinces as some would have. But the minister was l~~entably silent, hideously ineffective in presenting the Province's concerns or the alternatives. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I suspect I am close to using up the brief time I am allowed by the rule?, I shall not go no exceDt to ask if the minister would permi~ before this tendentioU:s-- -::and tedious session of the House comes to a close,would make it possible, using the government time, to have a debate on these two important issues so we could have some understanding of the government's position, if in fact they have one, so we can have some understanding of what it means for this Province. Because I will say, Mr.

Speaker, that these two prograi!1Bes are the essential cornerstones of this Province's financial stability at least for the next five years and what happens to them is very relevant because it will greatly affect the lives of each and every one of us in this Province. So I ask the minister would he agree to cause time to be made available to allow this to be done. It is far more important than most of what he and his colleagues have brought before the House this year, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 7672

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2871 so - 2 MR. SPE~ER (Simms): Further statements? ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKER : The hon . Le-ader of the Opp<'>sition. MR. STIRLING: Mr . Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of the Environment ( l-11: . Andrews). As was indicated in my response to ~is statement, I am not at all happy that the minister has not table:l all of the infonnation relating to this whole operation · ~~uld the minister agree, since I accompanied the Minister of Forestry (Mr.

Power) and my colleague accompanied the Minister of the Environment that at the time we all gone on the two helicopters that his staff had not specifically found the site where the matacil spray had been dumped? MR. SPEA!~ ~ : The hon. Minister of the Environment. HR . ANDREWS : Mr. Spea~er, being a new minister sometimes I may not know the rules,but I do not think it is very often that a mitdster or ministe rs do take the Leader of the Opposition, a man who has one ambition in life and that is to defeat this governrrent 1 and give him as much information as we did on Saturday .

We were very courteous, we gave you all the information that was available at the time, you had opportunities to talk, Mr. Speaker, the Leader did, with the personnel involved, the people who went to the site location. At that time it was decided on Friday afternoon, that the most important thing to do was to clarify what had happened , if anything, regarding some seepage into Gander Lake . An:1 that is where the efforts of the personnel from 7673

June 30,1981 Tape No. 2872 ah-1 MR. ANDREWS : the Environment Department went and fortunately were able to determine that there is no measurable amount of matacil in Gander Lake or in the water supply. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary. A supplementary. The hon.Leader Mr. Speaker, I do confirm that up until four o'clock the minister did co-operate fully.

At seven o'clock when I called back those same people I was told that I could not talk to them any further, I could get no further information , that all information must come from the minister,and this whole area had now been clamped down because what we did fine - and I would ask the minister now to deal with i~ Rnecifically, what we did find: What we did find was that up until four o'clock is that nobody from his department or the Department of Forestry could pinpoint with any degree of certainty at all, had found no evidence of where that whole planeload of spray had been dumped; none had been found up until four o'clock.

Would you confirm that since you were very co-operative? MR. SPEAKER: MR. ANDREWS: The hon. Minister of the Environment. Mr. Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposition seems to be sidetracking again. Up to that point in t~me we did know the general of the spill,but most importantly-to zero in on that spill site was not the most important thing to do. The most important thing was to monitor the water supplies of Gander Lake. In response to your other suggestion that I put the clamps on my department officials, that was done for the purpose which should be quite obvious!

There were all kinds of rumours around Gander on Friday, that there was an oil slick, one 7674

June 30,1981 Tape No. 2872 ah-2 HR. ANDREWS : man phoned that something fell on his car in a crystalline form. There were numerous rumours. We checked everything out. I told our people to get to work, do not talk to anybody,just do the job· And the job was done and it was done very well. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A supplementary. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr.

Speaker, it is very difficult that we have a minister who will not table all the information, the information that he has and I had up until the time that he cut off the source of information. ~hat I am trying to find out is what happened after that time. Up until four o'clock 1what hr> _(l heen obvious is that a plane loaded with matacil, CC- 4 had gone out with~ pilots on it,who ~ere the contractors pilots - ~e was nobody from Forestry on that plane, there was nobody from Environment on that plane 1and nobody knew precisely where that was dumped.

I talked to the pilot and the pilot said he did not think he could find where he dumped it. Now, Mr. Speaker, what I am interested in finding out is what happened after four o'clock? Up until four o'clock we had established that his depaLtrnent had found no evidence of it, and then he cut off the information. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the minister to tell us·precisely are we talking about a hundred yard area, are we talking about a circular area or,the area that they are now working in, are they talking about a ten square mile area that was given to them by the pilot as best he could?

The pilot said , 'I think it was in this area.' Would you tell us 7675

LL June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2873 EL - 1 MR. STIRLING: precisely what size area you have now identified as the area that you think the spray was dumped in? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Environ- ment. MR. ANDREWS : To the best of our information, Mr. Speaker, the area would be .and probably is a thousand to two thousand feet wide and oossiblv up to two miles in length. That would be the spillage area. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Mr.

Speaker, I would as the minister would he now confirm that at this point- because you did have the head of operations come in here Friday morning and presum­ ably he reported to you Friday morning although that vJas not the impression that you gave us at ten o'clock - w:>uld you now confirm that at this stage there has been no evidence found in the area that you are talking about of this spray actually being dumped? There has been no evidence of matacil found in the area that you referred to? MR. SPEAKER: MR. ANDREWS : The hon. the Minister of Environment. Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition might have his own opinions. What I did say is that our first efforts were to confirm-or ensure to the people of Ga:rler that their water supply was safe - hopefully it was and it was. The process of analyzing the sixty-five other samples of water, soil and vegetation is now underway. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the 7676

June 30, 1981 Tape No . 2873 EL - 2 MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, it is very diff­ icult t.o get precise information. Would the minister stop playing games and admit at this stage you have found no ev­ idence in the area that has been referred to as the dump site, you have found no evidence MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! This has happened frequent .ly since Question Period began both by the hon. Leader of the Opposition and by the minister where you are referring to each other back and forth. I would ask that you direct y{)ur remarks to the Chair and at least we may be ,able to keep order a little easier.

The hon. the Leader of the Oppos- ition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, the question is can the minister tell us precisely,except for t)le information given by a pilot who was under contract 1 that we do not have anything at this stage from any of our officials 1 either Forestry or ~t, that indicates that in that search area that you are now searching,that indicates any precise evidence of matacil in that area at this stage? 7677

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2874 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The han. Minister of Environment. MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, the scientific evidence is not yet in. Our officials are quite competent, they are quite sure they have located the site, but I must repeat again, Mr. Speaker, that the priority wa ·s to analyze the water samples from Gander and the Glenwood water intakes; that has been done. The process of analyzing the other samples began, I understand, last night.

One difficulty we had it was a long weekend, as you know, and to get personnel back on Saturday and Sunday took some time but we did round up the necessary personnel. Scientifically the only concern expressed by my staff is that there would be a localized insect kill. That would be quite natural because matacil is designed to kill insects. MR. SPEAKER: The hon : member for St. Mary's -The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Environment as well. I am wondering is this the first time in the history of the Province that we had to dump matacil?

Is this the first time it happened or did it ever happen before, where a load of matacil had to be dumped? MR. SPEAKER: MR. ANDREWS : The han. Minister of Environment. Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge this is the first occasion, but I could check and find if there was another occasion. MR. NEARY: It is not the first time- it is not. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: My question is to the Minister of Environment. When they had to clean up a diesel spill in Hawkes Bay or Hawkes River on the Labrador Coast last year, it almost depleted the ' Department of Environment's budget.

Now that we only have a $2 million budget and this major clean up, is this going to put 7678

June 30, 1981 Tape 2874 PK - 2 MR. HISCOCK: unnecessary strain on the budget of the Department of Environment?

And the second part that I would like to ask, in the Estimate Committee in asking the minister questions about his department, one of the things that we suggested was that the Department of Environment have a nerve centre or a control centre to co-ordinate the Federal Department of Environment, theCoast Guard, the oil companies, the Department of Forestry, the Department of Fisher~es, the Department of Municipal Affairs; has the minister now, because of this spill of matacil, been re-enforced of the need to have a nerve centre, to put more money into the Department of Environment instead of $2 million, that basically what we are seeing here is that we are a Johnnie-Come- Lately, after the fact, Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Environment. MR. ANDREWS: The last point first: There is a co-ordination effort, if the hon. member for ~agle River (Mr. Hiscock) would read the contingency plan that is quite evident. As far as the budget for the department, Mr. Speaker, no expense at all was in our minds when this emergency happened. We spared no expense at all. The necessary procedures were take~,overtime is being paid to people over the weekend to ensure that the environment is Protected. ;MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Environment. It relates to the problem that we experienced on Thursday, and also to the contingency plan that he tabled in the House on, I believe, it was June 8. I understand he also tabled another one on Friday morning. I would like to ask the minister, my question to him is, has he made any changes in that contingency pl~n since the accident on Thursday? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Environment. 7679

June 30, 1981 MR. ANDRE'.VS : knowledge. MR . TtJLK: MR . SPEAKER (Simms): Fogo . MR. TlJLK: Tape 2874 PK - 3 No, Mr. Speaker · N:>, ·not to my A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . A supplementary the hon. member for I would like to ask the minister • ~. if there has been any changes made in that plan since June 8 when I asked him the original question and he tabled the original contingency plan? 76Bn

June 30, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. ANDREWS: Tape 2875 EC - 1 The hon. the Mi~ister of Environment. On that point, I think there were some minor additions to it,if I remember correctly,because I did see two copies and I think on the last page there were some minor additions to it but nothing of any significance,f do not believe. MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER: member_ for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. the Mr. Speaker, I would like to tell the minister that there have been some changes in the plans.

But I would like to ask him to tell me as the minister responsible for the environment in this Province just what those chanqes were. MR. WARREN: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment. MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, I have tabled it twice. For the members of the Loyal Opposition, I have tabled that contingency plan twice and if they can read 1they can certainly understand it for themselves. MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER: member for Fogo. MR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A final supplementary, the hon. the I can assure the minister that I can very well read, and one of the things that is in this new contingency plan is that the matacil will be dumped on a flat area as far from water as possible. But I would like to ask him another question. Did he issue the spray permit on the basis of his first contingency plan or did he issue it on the basis of the second one? MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: Why did the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) make the changes in the 7681

June 30, 1981 Tape 2875 EC - 2 MR. TULK: second plan? Was it after the spray permit was issued? And why did he make it? Was it at your request? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. ANDREWS : The hon. the Minister of Environment. Mr. Speaker, the permits and the licences to spray matacil issued to the company and the pilot is not based on any contingency plan, it is based on the capability and the competence of the people doing the job. MR . NEARY: MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker. I yield, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for LaPoile yields to the hon. the member for Fogo. MR.

TULK: Is the minister now saying,then, that he is not following one of the recommendations of the Royal Commission which said that a contingency plan had to be in place before that spray permit was issued? That is recommendation number thirteen, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON . l1EMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. ANDREWS: Hear, hear! The hon. the Minister of Environment. Mr. Speaker, the contingency plan was in place before permits were issued. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my colleague,the member for St. Mary's - The Capes (~r.

Hancock) put a question to the Minister of Environment as to whether or not on previous occasions when there was spraying done by matacil in this Province,if a load of matacil had to be dumped and the hon. gentleman said, to his knowledge, no. Well, now I am going to put the same question to the minister who was responsible at that time, the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, Would he tell the House if on one previous occasion it 7682

.,,., June 30, 1981 Tape 2875 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: was necessary to dump a load of matacil in this Province? If so - HR. TULK: 'Morgan'. 'Morgan'. MR. NEARY: The Minister of Fisheries, (Mr. ~organ) rather, if he would give us the information. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. NEARY: can give it to us. MRo SPEAKER: The bon. member - The Minister of Forestry (Mr. Power) Well, is it to the bon. the Minister of Fisheries or the bon. the Minister of Forestry? MR. NEARY: Well, whichever, What I am trying to do is to - MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Pardon? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

My point is, the bon. member knows that he cannot ask the bon. the Minister of Fisheries that question because you can only ask him a question that comes within his current jurisdiction and that certainly would not come under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Fisheries. MR. NEARY: Well, I will stick with the original minister then, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Forestry. MR. SPEAKER: MR. ' NEARY: The bon. the member for LaPoile. Could he tell the House why this matter was concealed, why the information was withheld from the public? There was one previous occasion in 1978 that the Minister of Environment (Mr.

Andrews) apparently does not know about and could not care less about. So would the Minister of Forestry bring us up to date on that situation and tell us exactly what happened on that occasion and why the information was withheld from the people of this Province? 7683

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2876 DW - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands . MR. C. POWER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am glad you clarified the title of the department. It is not Forestry and Agriculture, it is Forest Resources 'and Lands. MR. S. NEARY: Well, whatever it is. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. C. POWER: Mr. Speaker, there are rules. We do have certain departments which are responsible - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. C. POWER: The members opposite, even to critics, obviously do not even know the departments are supposed to be criticizing. Mr.

Speaker, as it relates to 1978 prograrnme,I will be glad to take that question under advisement and find out for the ~ember opposite. MR. s. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A. supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker,I think I can state categorically there was a load dumped in 1978. I am amazed, f.Uilibergasted, that the minister did not know about it! MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible). MR. S. NEARY: Well, there may have been two loads but there was certainly one load that I know about dumped in - MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible). MR. S.

NEARY: Well, whenever the last spraying took place. Yes, it was 1978 or - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 7684

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2876 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. S. NEARY: They do not even remember the year, Mr. Speaker! Well, I would like to ask the minister now if he has had any complaints from the company that is doing the spraying, that underbid the other company or com­ panies that bid on the spray programme--they underbid by $300,000 - are they disgruntled? Have they made any corn­ plaints about not being able to break even or make any money off this contract?.Is it possible, for instance- DW - 2 the reason I am asking the question - that the load of rnatacil may have been dumped deliberately?

Is that possible? Because so far we do not have a report on the condition of the aircraft, we do not have the maintenance report in this House, so we can assume all sorts of things. We do not know whether it was a crisis situation, MR. MORGAN: Are you trying to say it was intentional? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. S. NEARY: - we do not know whether there was panic on the aircraft. But is it possible that the air­ craft may have circled and dumped the load deliberately? Is ~hat possible? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. H . ANDREWS : Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Which minister?

The Minister of Environment. The hon. Minister of Environment. The question was directed to me, The hon. Minister of Environment. MR. H. ANDREWS : I suppose it is possible, anything is possible. But our information is that the pilot did develop a fire in one of his engines, engine number one, I believe, and he considered it an emergency situation. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 7685

June 30, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for LaPoile. Tape No. 2876 DW - 3 A supplementary, the hon. member MR. S. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, is the hon. gentleman prepared to table in this House the maintenance report? When that aircraft returned to Gander,obviously somebody checked the engine because the aircraft was airborne again with a matter of hours. So what I am trying to determine is how serious was the situation? Was there actually flames coming from the engine o~ was there just smoke coming from the engine? I know these are technical questions - MR. J. MORGAN: MR. S. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: He was not there.

No, but he talked to the pilot. Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. S. NEARY: People on this side of the House talked to the pilot and the co-pilot and the hon. gentleman must have talked to the pilot. Was there just smoke and noises coming from the aircraft, the engine of the aircraft,or did the pilot actually see flames coming from the engine? MR. SPEAKER: MR . H. ANDREWS : The hon. Minister of Environment. Not being there myself, Mr. Speaker, I only have to go by the pilot's word. He said he saw flames, he saw smoke and oil leaking out, he jettisoned the load and he began his return flight to Gander.

He waited and circled around and made one complete circle while another aircraft in the area could inspect the damaged aircraft from the outside to give the pilot some information on the condi­ tion of the aircraft before he returned. MR. B. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. MR. B. TULK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary for the minister on the airplane flight. When we were on the helicopter with the minister, and I thank him again for taking us along, his official had a flight pattern traced on a map for that aircraft which he said he had taken from 7686

June 30 , 1981 Tape No . 2876 HR. B. TULK: Forestry . On that flight plan the airplane had circled somewhere ,a pproximately halfways between Gander Lake and the area where he was supposed to DW - 4 have dumped. Now how does the mini ster - or has he sought any explanation of why an airplane pilot wo uld circle halfways between his destination 7687 ..

..... ~ ....... June 30,1981 Tape No. 2877 ah-1 M..~. TOLK : and the place where he dumped when he was not even in the spray are~? MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon . Minister of the Environme -nt. -M..~. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, I thought I explained that. The circling route of the aircraft was taken after the jettisoning, not fran Gander to the location but after the jettisoning. There was another aircraft in the area that flew up and they contacted each other and the pilot made a circle around so that the other aircraft could inspect the damaged plane. MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER: for Fogo . MR.TULK : A supplementary Mr.

Speaker. A supplementary. The hon.member So is the minister saying then that his official on Friday morning had been given the wrong informatipn in saying that that \.:as the route that he took into the dump site? He is now telling us that it was after the airplane had d~~ped and was on his way back to Gander that it circled. Whi ch is the right information and why would he be circling anyway? MR . SPEAKER : MR. ANDREWS : The hon . Minister of the Environment. Mr.

Speaker, it is quite obvious to me now that the Opposition do not understa .nd the facts of life .· I was on boar d the helicopter with the member for Fogo (Mr . Tulk) and that was not my im pressi on of what my official told me and that was not the far.~ ~+ all . That circlin g t.:as done after the emergency jettisoni..~g on his return back to the runway and that is 1.:hat the pilot told me and that is what PlY officials told me and that is a fact. MR . STIRLING: MR . SPEAKER : MR . STIRLING: Mr. Speaker . The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker , a question for the 7686

June 30,1981 Tape No. 2877 ah-2 MR. STIRLING: Minister of the Environment. Has the minister reactivated the Environmental Monitoring Committee and was this incident under the management of the Environmental Monitoring Committee? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon the Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS: You mean this accident? MR. STIRLING: The whole operation. MR. ANDREWS: The Environmental Monitorinrr Committee has been established, Mr. Speaker, for ~ tme. It is an ongoing body. I can give the Leader of the Opposition the names of the people involved there. They are mostly scientific people.

They do not necessarily react to an incident like this. They are an ongoing group of environmental monitors· However, I did talk with some of them today. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary. A supplementary. The hon. Leader Mr. Speaker, if I understand the minister correctly,he is saying that the operational end of this is not controlled by the Environmental Monitoring Committee and therefore, Mr.Speaker, there does not seem to be anybody in control of the actual operation.

In view of the accident that happened on Thursday night, in view of the continuation will the minister now change the procedure so that there is one of his officials; either Forestry or Environment, onboard the plane that actually carries the matacil? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS: I will certainly consider that, Mr. Speaker. I do not know if the fact that one of our 7689

June 30,1981 Tape No . 2877 ah-3 l-!R. ANDRENS: officials or Forestry officials are onboard an aircraft is necessarily going to prevent a fire in engine number one on any of the aircraft. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simm s): MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker . The hon. member for LaPoile . Mr. Speaker, that has not been established yet just how serious the fire was,if indeed there was a fire. 7690

June 30, 1981 Tape No.2878 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, hon. members know there are aircraft technicians in this Province who can determine and should have determined the extent of the damage if there w~s that much damage. If the airplane was able to circle before returning to Gander,obviously SD - 1 there was no emergency situation of the magnitude that we are led to believe in this House. Could the hon. gentleman tell us if he has seen the maintenance report on that aircraft?:B,ecause my understanding, Mr.

Speaker, is this, that there is a firewall between the engines of the aircraft and the cockpit,and the pilot can shut off all the valves and within a matter of seconds,if there was a fire it wou.Jd go out, the engine would stop and it would go out. Now, has the hon. gentleman seen the maintenance report to confirm whether these procedures were used, if there was indeed flame, how much fire damage was done to the engine when it landed in Gander? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS: Mr.

Speaker, not being in the aircraft when it was on fire, I really do not know what went through the pilot's mind other than the fact he told me he had 2,600 US gallons of a petroleum based product - that was the matacil spray-plus 1,500 gallons of aviation fuel 1 and he had an engine fire in his aircraft and he dumped. I would have too. MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. .. SPEAKER: MR. TULK: The hon. member for Fogo. Oh, oh. Order, please! A supplementary question to the minister.

Recommendation 13, as I understand it, of the Royal Commission also said that there should be simulated exercises of the minister's contengency plan. Now on June 8th the minister promised to table them in the House~ it has not yet been done. 7 6 9 .,

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2878 SD - 2 AN HON. MEMBER: He tabled thai.: }llan. MR. TULK: No, no. The simulated exercises, reports of the simulated exercises, !s he now ready to table those? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS: I tabled just about everything; twice I had to table the contingenc~ plan. I also did say at that time, I think it was June 8th if I remember correctly, that the re=rrrendations in. the lbyal Comnission Report were recarmendations.

Some of these activities that you refer to were deemed not necessary; for instance, the hospital in Gander did not think it was necessary for us to have practice ambulance runs from the runway of the airport because they have ambulance runs every day, they know how to handle those situations. So to the best of-the recommendations in the Royal Commission Report were followed; some of them were not necessarily acted upon because we did not feel that they were necessary; for instance, things like the ambulance runs. MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER: MR. TULK: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member for Fogo.

The minister has now told us,I take it, that he did not carry out the simulated exercises as was recommended by the Commission before a spray permit was issued,or he did not require that they be carried out. My question to him is then, if he had carried out those simulated exercises, would he have not perhaps set up a situation or run across a situation,perhaps one of the situations that he should have set up, would he not have run across a situation like occurred in Gander on Thursday night and perhaps been much better prepared to see that the matacil spray area had indeed been marked by some sort of marker?

MR .. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of the Environment. 7692

June 30, 1981 Tape No . 2878 so - 3 MR. ANDRENS: I do not quite get the gist of that question, Mr. Speaker, but I can only say that any precautions that are taken are not necessarily going to prevent an accident. This was an accident. It could have been a very, very serious accident. I realize the Opposition are agai .nst this whole spray programme ; they want, I suppose,20,000 jobs in the labour force in Newfoundland to go up the spout with the budworm. !f they are not, they waste one half hour of this Bous~ 's time on silly, inane questions. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh . 7693

June 30, 1981 MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAXER (Simms) : Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Tape No. 2879 EL - 1 A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Let us deal with that business about the whole operation. I presume that when the Minister of Forestry (C.Power) said in the House on Friday that con­ taminated area will be treated with caustic soda or farmers lime depending on the type of ground,whether it is dry or wet, that Mr. Speaker, _is being done this morning.

When the minister said that on Friday morning, I presume that now that thatwas incorrect and at that stage they were not putting caustic soda or farmers lime on the contaminated area. Is that correct? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environ- rnent. MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, there was a chemical used on the runway. I do not know if it was caustic soda. There are other chemicals that you can use to neutralize this product. That was done on the airport and the tarmac in Gander, yes. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon.

No, it is not a supPlementary. Tl':'.J.ess some of my colleagues have a supplementary, it is a new question. MR. SPEAKER: member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A n-:w question, the hon. I will direct it - it is a diff- erent topic- I will direct my question to the Premier. It has to do with a visit yesterday to the Summer Garnes PaFk by 100 Huntley Street, A Salute to Canada. It is my understanding that these people who did this programme televised from coast to coast 7694

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2879 EL - 2 MR. NEARY: wrote the Premier or his ministers or his officials and asked for the use of Confederation Building for that salute to Canada. Could the hon. gentleman tell us what response was given by his office to 100 Huntley Street in connection with A Salute To Canada? MR. SPEAKER(Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I cannot answer that question, Mr. Speaker. I will check it out for the hon. member and let him know. I do not really know. I do not know. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: expired. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

The time for Oral Questions has ORDER OF THE DAY On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair . . COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird}: Order, please! We are now debating the Gasoline Tax Act. The Government House Leader (W.Marshall) has twenty­ three minutes le£t. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I would have remained seated. I see the hon. member for LaPoile (S.Neary) get on his feet. I was speaking, Mr. Chairman, for a few moments last Friday before I was interupted. So I think it is worthwhile to say it once again.

This Bill has been debated, fully debated by everybody, I feel at this particular time. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, it has been over debated. It has debated for many hours, many things mentioned but for the gasoline tax. The gasoline tax was announced bv the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) in the Budget Speech and it is now being collected. 7695

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2879 EL - 3 MR. MARSHALL : I \"Ould hope that the House would see fit to be able to proceed on to other bills so I will refrain from ma l<ing some of the comments that I might have otherwise made. I see the hon. member for LaPoLle (S.Neary) is ready to jump to his feet, but he can wait just a few moments and possess his soul in patience. I wiJ.l refrain,as I say,from making some of the comments except to say this.that there has been a criticism of this bill with respect to the nature n~ the tax itself . It is 9n an ad valorem basis. I say agaLn that is on the s~e basis · as every 7696

June 30, 1981, Tape 2880, Page 1 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: . province of Canada which levies a gasoline tax but one , which is Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia, I do not believe, has a tax on gasoline. I do not know. But eight of the provinces of Canada levy tax on an ad valorem basis and this government is doing exactly the same thing. I also understand that the federal government levies its tax on the same basis. So, Hr. Chairman, I would hope that we would be able to proceed on now with the business of the House and make some progress. I do not know if the hon. gentleman has anything further to add.

If he has we will listen in anxious anticipation, as we always do. MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN(Baird): LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. The hon. the member for No doubt, before the afternoon is over, Mr. Chairman, we may be able to proceed to other bills. But there are a few points yet that we have to make in connection with increasing taxes in this Province, and the expenditure of the revenue that is collected from these taxes.

Now, during the debate so far on this bill, which is really second reading - that is really what we are debating, second reading, except we are using a different procedure; we are in Committee of the Whole which give us the right to talk as often as we want on this particular bill - some members on the government side of the House dragged up the past as they usually do when they are trying to defend them­ selves. When they are trying to create a smoke screen for their own inaction, for their own ineptness, for their being unable to cope with the problems of the 7697

June 30, 1981, Tape 2880, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: economy, for their explanation, for their excuses, if you like, feeble excuses for not doing anything in ten years of Tory administration in this Province, they have dragged up the past. And they keep slapping the past at us across this House. Well, now, Mr. Chairman, I dealt with one of the items on Friday and so far there has been no response from t~~ Premier about Mr. Smallwood's house, no response from the Premier on that item.

I am not going to dwell on that again, I am just going to leave that as a matter of public record and deal with some of the other items. This government has been in office for ten years, Mr. Chairman; not the present administration, but we have had a Tory government in this Province for ten years . And during the ten years, despite the fact that taxes h2.ve gone up substantially - the gasoline tax now being converted to a percentage 1 on a percentage basis - taxes have increased substantially and the debt, the public debt, is now $3.2 billion.

That public debt in 1972, on January 18 when the Liberals were kicked out after twenty-three years in office, the public debt was three-quarters of a billion dollars, $750 million, approximately. Now, at the end of this fiscal year, it will be $3.2 billion, $3,200,000,000, or an increase in ten years by $2.4 billion. Mr. Chairman, that is absolutely astounding. It is incredible! And not a thing to show for it.

And $200 million, every year, going outside this Province to pay the interest on the debt, $200 million that is lost to Newfoundland every year, that goes into the United States, into Europe and on the ~!ainland, and to Alberta, to pay the interest. 7698

June 30, 1981, Tape 2880, Page 3 -- apb MR, NEARY: ' Now, Mr. Chairman, they do not have a thing to show for it. But what did the Liberals have to show for their twenty-three years with a debt of only $750 million? What did they have to show for it? They had quite a bit to show for it. 7699

June 30, 1981 AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: Tape 2881 EC - 1 (Inaudible) , I beg your pardon? (Inaudible} breach of contract. Mr. Chairman, I will tell the House what they have to show for it. There is no Liberal in this Province or on this side of the House, at least, that should ever hang his head, should ever cringe, or he never should express disgust or embarrassment any time a member stands in this House and hurls the dirt and the filth and the smear tactics that they use. Nobody in this House or not a Liberal in this Province should ever hang his head in shame.

As a matter of fact, he should hold his head high and walk proud in this Province and say, 1 I am proud to be a Liberal. 1 Because ·, Mr. Chairman, during that twenty-three years,when the debt was only $750 million, what happened in that twenty-three years? Well, I will tell the House what happened. Mr. Chairman, under Education and Culture what happened in this Province? What kind of a revolution took place under that Head in that twenty-three years?

And I am comparing that twenty-three years with the whole period that we have had Responsible Government in this Province, from 1885, I believe, up to 1981, almost a hundred years of Responsible Government. You can take all the adrninistrationsb~fore 1949, Liberal and Tory, and go right back to Premier Little and you will find that during that twenty-three years under the Smallwood adrninistration,more things happened in Newfoundland than happened in its whole history, taking all the administrations and lumping them together, Liberals and Tories. AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. MR. NEARY: More things happened.

More schools were built, 1,200 of them, more colleges, medical schools, 7700

June 30, 1981 Tape 2881 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: nursing schools and engineering schools were built, more fisheries colleges and technical colleges were built, more special schools were built, more regional and central high schools were built than the whole period put together; more universities - and there is only one of them - that was built by a Liberal Government; more trade schools and vocational schools were built. Every vocational school in this Province today was built by a Liberal Administration, by the Smallwood Liberal administration.

More deaf children's schools were built - the one down at Torbay; more retarded children's assistance than in our whole history, more school bus services than all the Premiers and all the administrations put together, more scholarships and bursaries than all the other administrations put together, more strengthening of the NTA.

It was a Liberal administration that gave them the check off in this Province that made them strong; more upgrading of teachers' qualifications by the Smallwood Liberal administration, more teachers' housing, more public libraries, more university residences, more radio, films anq television in schools, more arts and culture centres, more arts and culture awards than in our 7701

June 30, 1981 Tape 2882 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: whole history,than all of the other administrations put together.More was done in the field of arts and culture by the Smallwood Liberal administration, more art galleries were built, more museums were built, MR. ~10RGAN: (Inaudible) twenty-three years (inaudible) . MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I will come to that later. More paintings and statues of notable persons were made, created, more archives were built; more of each and all of these items than by all other premiers combined,from 1855 to 1981, Mr. Chairman.

That is only under Education and rulture, so what about Public Health. There were more hospitals built by the Smallwood Liberal administration than by all the other premiers and all the other administrations put together.

More medical clinics were built, more air ambulances were established, more land ambulances established by the Smallwood administration than all the other premiers and all of the other administrations combined, more hospital boats, more medical,dental,optical services in schools, more doctors, dentists, nurses, training programmes were i~plemented by the Smallwood Liberal administration, that is under Public Health, Now, what about Transportation-.:· Well, Mr.

Chairman, under Transportation more miles of roads were built by the Smallwood Liberal administration than all the other administrations and all the other premiers in our whole history. More roads,more settlements were taken out of isolation than all of the other premiers put together. More paving was done in this Province.

More roads to resources were built, more modern bridges were built, more highways anc overpasses were built, more highways and underpasses were built, more causeways were built, more modern ferries I , were built and put into operation, more airports were built, and more airplane landing strips were built~ All of these items, 7702

June 30, 1981 Tape 2882 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, more of each and all of these than all the other premiers combined,since 1855 to 1981. And what about in the fishery. I hope hon. gentlemen are listening to what I am saying. In the fishing industry, Mr. Chairman, fresh fish processing plants,more built than by all the ~ther premiers and all the other administrations put together , by the Smallwood administration. MR. MORGAN: Too many (inaudible). MR.

NEARV: More fresh fish plants, processing plants, more salt fish processing plants, more longliners, more draggers, more Danish seiners, more midwater trawlers, more nylon nets, more bait depots, more community stages, more electronic fish finders, more mechanical haul out equipment, more marine service centres and service depots, more shipyards and beat yards, organized salt fish marketing, representation in fish markets, fact finding missions to fishing countries, fact finding royal commissions on fisheries. MR. HORGAN: The !')on, gentleman (_inaudible)_, MR. NEARY: More, Mr.

Chairman, more of each and all of these items than ever before,by any other premier or by all the premiers combined and all the other administrations combined, more by the Smallwood Liberal administration. And what about in the field of economic development? More mines were opened under the Smallwood Liberal administration than ever before in our whole history~ More industrial plants, more drilling for minerals ,under water and on land 1 started by the Smallwood Liberal administration.than ever before in our whole history.

More mineralized drilling in Labrador, more water power surveys done in Newfoundland, more forest surveys done in Newfoundland and Labrador, more electricity brought into production, more forest fire fighting facilities, more hotels and motels, more land clearing, more bogland reclamation, more community pastures, more 7703

June 30,1981 Tape No. 2883 ah-1 MR. NEARY: ho~ h:>:"~Adinq and hog production, more egg production, more broiler production, more sheep production, more agricultural work done in community pastures and in development of agriculture, more cold storage facilities, more blueberry production, more of each and all of these i terns than a.ll other Premiers and administrations put together or combined since 1855 to 1981. Mr. Chairman, these facts speak for themselves. These ~acts are a matter of public record. And what about Municipal Affairs?

Well, under Municipal Affairs, under that heading what happened? were we slackers? Were we reniss in our responsibilities? Should we h.ang our heads in shame as Liberals? Should we be ashamed to admit we are Liberals? Well,what happened in the field of Municipal Affairs that we should be so proud of?

Mo~e municipalities were organized and incorporated under the Smallwood Liberal administration than ever before in our whole history, ;;.lith all the administrations combined .M:Jre water and sewer systems implemented, more fire fighting facilities were set up, more town halls were built, more streets were paved, more municipal incinerators were built and more municipal control dumps were constructed than ever 1--,f"fore in our whole histor~r put toqether, combined. And that takes care, Mr. Chairman, of Huncipal Affairs. Now, \•That about Recreation?

In that particular field s'10uld we duck, should we get under our · desks every time somebody on the other side slaps a bit of dirt at us? Should we crawl under our desks? Should we look for a hole to crawl in? Should we hide our heads? Well, Mr. Chairman, listen to this: Under Recreation ~ore public parks built by the Smallwood Liberal administration than all other administrations 7704

June 30,1981 Tape No. 2883 ah-2 MR. NEARY: combined,since 1855 to 1981, more public campsites were built , more public picnic sites, more arenas and rinks and stadiums built, more swimming pools, more national parks, more athletic centres - MR. MARSHALL: A point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird) : A point of order. The hon. House Leader. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member is obviously reading a-sDeech and it obviously has a very familiar ring, I quote Your Honour page 101, paragraph 309.

"It is a rule in both Houses of Parliament that aMember must address the House orally, and not read from a written, previously prepared speech," and this is generally known. The hon. gentleman is obviously reading from a speech. He has been turning it over for the past two or three minutes.As I say, Mr. Speaker, it has a very familiar lilt c>nd ring to it, t'-,_at particular speech. And, of course,the hon. member would not only that,would have to speak in his own words and not somebody else's. He cannot come in and read a speech and that is what the bon. member is doing. MR. NF.ARY: order-MR.

CHAIRMAN: member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman to that point of To the point of order. The bon. -which is not a point of order, Mr. Chairman, because I can tell the House and the bon. gentleman that I am not reading a speech. I have not read a speech in this House since I made my maiden speech back in 1962 or 1963. I am not reading a speech.All I have in front of me is a list of projects, Mr. Chairman, and these are my own words to describe these projects, very powerful stuff, very potent. I am sure the bon. gentleman 7705

June 30,1981 Tape No . 2883 a.h -3 MR •. . NEARY: does not like to hear it but I am quite prepared to table the list. I will be proud and happy as a Liberal and as a member on this side of the House ,to table the list when I am finished referring to my list of notes . There is the speech, Mr. Chairman, a list of projects and if I listed them all I would not have room enough in the Assembly , the paper would stretch from the door right up to the Speaker's Chair. SO ~e is no speech being read. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird) : Order, please ! 7706

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2884 MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird): To that point of order, it has been the practice of this House to allow members to read their speeches from time to time. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, when I was so rudely interrupted by the hon. gentleman,I was dealing with Recreation.

Under Recreation more public parks.,more public campsites, more public picnic sites, more national parks, more rinks and st~diums and arenas, more swimming ow - 1 pools, outdoor and indoor, more athletic centres, more recreational centres and more gymnasiums, or gymnasia, as some people prefer to call it, were built under the Smallwood Liberal administration than all of the other Premiers and administrations combined. More of each and all of these than by all other Premiers com- bined, since 1895 to 1981. And what about under social reforms in this Province? MR. TULK: How much (inaudible)? MR. S. NEARY: Pardon?

MR. TULK: How much was the public debt at that time? MR. S. NEARY: My hon. friend reminds me that I should probably interject at this particular point that all this cost a public debt of $750 million, tHree quarters of a billion dollars. And I am coming to what happened with the $2.4 billion now when I am finished with my list. Now, Mr. Speaker, what about under social reforms? More public housing by a SmallwoodLiberal administration than all the other - I am not talking about ten years of Torism add it all together! Combine it all!

More public housing, more urban renewal developments, more slum clearance, more senior citizen homes, more rural electrication, ending isolation of 800 settlements by roads, reduced airitravel to residents of Labrador. More of this, 7707

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2884 DW - 2 MR. s. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, more of each and all of these items than by all other Premiers or administra- tions combined since 1855 to 1981. Mr. Chairman, that is only a sample. I have barely scratched the surface. I have not, for instance, boasted about one of the great reforms that was made in this Province by the Smallwood Liberal admin­ istration , and that was doing away with the demeaning vulture in the Department of Welfare,as it was known, the Department of Social Assistance. And started paying people, giving people dignity and pride by paying them by cheque.

One of the greatest reforms in Newfoundland's history! MR. CARTER: Tell us about Bell Island. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am not going to be distracted. The editorial in the Daily News adequately took care of the hon. gentleman this morning. I thought, Mr. Chair­ man, the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) in this House was the ultimate in rudeness and nastiness .until I heard the hon. member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) the other day in this House. Now, Mr. Chairman, take that record! And I could go on and on but I am not going to.

I do not want to bore the House with everything that was done by that Smallwood Liberal administration: but I could, Mr. Chairman. But I want to say this, I want to take that now and I want to compare it or make a contrast between that twenty-three years - take the first ten years if you want to, forget the other thirteen, take the first ten years or take the last ten years of the Smallwood administration, take either one, go on either end, take the first ten years after Confederation or take the last ten years of the Smallwood administration and compare it!

Take any ten years and compare it to ten years of Torism in this Province. Mr. Chairman, I will even go further than that, I will say this 1 take one, pick any one of the twenty-three years of Small­ wood Liberal administration, pick one year! I defy any member on the government 7708

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2885 EL - 1 MR. NEARY: benches to pick one year and compare it and contrast it to ten years of Toryism in this Province and see, look at the contrast. Compare it and see what you have. You have ten years o: inaction , ineptness 1 inactivity. You have ten years that will be lost to Newfoundland forever. Ten years when not one item, not one thing has happened. They cannot point a finger to one major accomplishment in ten years,except that they have trebled the public debt. The public debt in ten years has gone, risen by 2.4 billion or $2,400,000,000.

That is the only thing that can boast about, Mr. Chairman, in ten years. And you can take that ten years, pick whatever year you want out of the Smallwood Liberal era, one year,and compare it. By contrast, Mr. Chairman, it is the Liberals - and Mr. Chairman, I hope nobody musunder~ stands what I am saying. I hope nobody thinks that I am saying that the Smallwood administration was perfect. I hope nobody thinks that I am saying that the Liberals were all perfect. I am not saying that, Mr. Chairman.

No, I am not even going close to it, because, like all human beings, the Smallwood administration made errors and mistakes. But I guarantee you this, - MR. HISCOCK: It was not for the want of trying. MR. NEARY: It was not for the want of trying, as my friend says. But, Mr.

Chairman, no Liberal, whether he be young or old, whether he be middle-aged or whether he lives in rural Newfoundland or in the urban part of this Prov­ ince 1or on the mainland part of the Province ,in Labrador, no Liberal, no Newfoundlander alive today,whether he is a hard­ core Tory or whether he is a Socialist,will deny the fact that the Smallwood Liberal administration did their homework and they produced and they have something to show for a public debt of $750 million, 7708

June 30, 1981 Tape No . 2885 EL - 2 MR . NEARY: now, at the end of this year, $3 .2 billion. After ten years of Toryism in this Province, they cannot point a finger at one major accomplishment, Mr . Chairman . MR. WARREN : The new fla g. MR. NEARY : All the silly, foolish stuff, nonsense, but I am talking about major accomplishments that would put bread and butter on the tables of the ordinary people in this Province. I dare them ~d I challenge them to stand in this House or outside the Rouse , and point a finger at one major accomplishment that they have had in this Provine e in ten years . Mr.

Chairman, all they are doing is building on a foundation,or trying to buil.d ,and they are makinq an incredible mess out of it . MR . HISCOCK: Put her on hold . MR . TULK: MR. NEARY : They have weakened the foundation . They have weakened the foundation. They have opened a couple of jails and a few incinerators . Now, that is the extent of it . Mr. Chairman, \-te used to hear a lot of criticism about the golden spade, about the scissors that cut all the ribbons in this Province.

Well, we have not seen too many sod -turning ceremonies in this Province in the last ten years, or we have not seen too many ribbons being cut MR . WARREN: I believe you are getting to them, Steve . You are getting to them . 77 10

June 30, 1981, Tape 2886, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: because, Mr. Chairman, there wer~ and are no developments. They have made a shambles out of the economy of this Province. Mr. Chairman, by the time we get back in again, which will be soon, I hope, we will have to learn to use the scissors over again, and we will have to learn how to use the golaen spade for sod turning in this Province. But, Mr. Cnairman, what a shameful performance. What a sham~ful track record. It does not exist.

And they have the face and the gall to stand up in this House, for the last couple of years, day in and day out, flinging the mud and the dirt across this House at the Liberals. 'Oh, look what you did, you gave this away and you gave that away'. Mr. Chairman, who should hang their heads in shame in this House? Who should? Should it be the Liberals of this Province, or the Liberals on this side of the House, or should it be the turncoats on the other side of the House? What a proud record, Mr. Chairman, and what a contrast between the good old days, when this Provincewas on the march and on the move.

What a contrast to what it is today, when everything has ground to a halt. MR. MARSHALL: Would the hon. member mind if we rise the Committee? The Lieutenant-Governor is here. MR. NEARY: I will move that the Committee rise and report no progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Chairman. On motion, that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. 7 711

~ June 30, 1981, Tape 2886, Page 2 -- apb On motion, report received and adopted, Committee ordered to sit presently, by leave. SERGEANT-AT-AlU>IS: Mr. Speaker, B.is Honour the Lieutenant-Governor has arrived . MR. SPEAKER(Simms): Admit His Hounour the Lieutenant-Governor. All rise,please! Your Honour, it is my agreeable duty on behalf of Her Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects , Her faithful commons in Newfoundland, to present to Your Honour bills for the appropriation of Supply. granted in the present session.

A bill"An Act For Granting To Her Majesty Certain Sums Of Money For Defraying Certain Expenses I.n The Public Service For The Financial Year Ending The Thirty -First Day Of folarch One Thousand Nine Hundred And Eighty-Two And For Other Purposes Relating To The Public Service" . (Bill No. 81}_ . HON . GORDON A WINTER(Lieutenant -Governor) : In Her Majesty's Name,! thank Her Loyal Subjects, I accept their benevolence ,and I assent to this bill . 7712

June 30, 1981, Tape 2887, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : May it please Your Honour, The General Assembly of the Province has at its present Session passed certain Bills, to which, in the name and on behalf of the General Assembly, I respectfully request Your Honour's Assent. A bill, "An Act To Establish The Newfoundland And Labrador Youth Advisory Council". (Bill No. 31). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Libraries Act, 1975" . (Bill No. 35). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Mining And ~al Rights Tax Act, 1975". (Bill ~o. 10).

A bill, "An Act Respecting The Garnishment Against The Remuneration Of Public Officials". (Bill No. 9). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Local School Tax Act". (Bill ·No . 7). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland Teachers' Association Act". (Bill No. 8) . A bill, "An Act To Amend The Judgement Recovery (Nfld.) Act". (Bill No. 16). A bill, "An Act To Ame .nd The Attachment Of Wages Act". (.Bill No. 53). A bill, "An Act To Enable Insurance Corporation Of Newfoundiand Limited To Become A Federal Corporation" . (Bill No. 51) . A bill, "An Act To Repeal The Income Tax Discounters Act". (.Bill No. 27).

A bill, "An Act To .ll..mend The Change Of Name Act, 1978". (Bill No. 26). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland Human Rights Code". (Bill No. 23 ). A bill, "An Act Res:>ecting Private Investigation And Security Services". (Bill No. 22). 7 71 3

v June 30, 1981, Tape 2887, Page 2 -- apb A bill, "An Act To Amend The Tobacco Tax Act, 1978". (.Bill No. 85) . HON. GORDON A. t~R(Lieuten a nt-Governor): In Her Majesty 's Name, I Assent to these Bills. MR. SPEAKER(Simms): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I move that the House resolve itself into CommLttee of the Whole. on motion, that tne House resolve itself into Committee of the Wnole on Bill No. 86, Mr . Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE 7714

June 30, 1981 Tape 2888 EC - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird) : Order, please! The hon. the member for LaPoile has six minutes remaining. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I doubt if I can say all that I have to sa~ when I am comparing the two administrations in six minutes, but I will try. We have plenty of time, Mr. Chairman. And I might say this, that one of the real reasons, of course, that more progress is not being made in this House at the present - time is because of the discourtesy of the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall).

I do not want to embarrass His Honour,and I hope His Honour does not hear what I am going to say, but even if you take today, it is maybe a small example but it is quite big as far as we are concerned, that we did not know that His Honour was due to come to the House this afternoon. MR. WARREN: What? Boy, oh boy! HH .• NEARY: That is how discourteous the Government House Leader is, Mr. Chairman. He is so high and mighty. The hon. gentleman is so high and mighty that he feels he does not have to talk to our House Leader over here (Mr. Hodder). Well, that is fine with us, ~r.

Chairman, because hon. members know, and I do not have to remind them how these things are done, they are done behind the curtain quietly and without fanfare. And if the Government House Leader persists, Mr. Chairman - and he can go on radio and rant and rave all he likes that the Opposition are stalling, so he says. Nobody believes him. I was on Open Line this morning. I did two hours this morning on an Open Line programme. I found it very interesting and very informal. It was one of the best so they told me. I was swamped with phone calls after.

It was one of the best programmes that have been done in a long, long time. And I ended up by chastizing 7715

June 30, 1981 Tape 2888 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) for his high and mighty, condescending attitude. He thinks that everybody has to bow down to him, kiss his feet, kowtow to him. The bon. gentleman is so high and mighty and so big and so small and narrow­ minded, that he thinks that the Opposition are going to come crawling to him. Well, Mr. Chairman, we have plenty of time. We are not going to rush the people's business. We are going to de~ate the bills as we are doing today. We are going to make sure that every bill is debated thoroughly.

There is going to be no more of this last minute stuff of ramming a whole bunch of bills through the House. And if that means that we are going to be here all Summer, well, we will stay here until Labour Day and we will take a holiday on Labour Day and we will come back and go at it again, Mr. Chairman. There is no hurry. The people's business has to be discussed in a proper way. Mr. Chairman, I was dealing with the Smallwood era and I was mentioning the twenty-three years - and I might say, by the way, there was another record established by Mr o Smallwood.

In that twenty-three years he borrowed $750 million, which was more than all the other administrations in Newfoundland's history put together. But that record, Mr. Chairman, did not last very long. That record was smashed by the Moores administration and by the present administration. From January 18, 1972 up to the present time, Mr. Smallwood's record of borrowing $750 million 7 71 6

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2889 so - 1 MR. NEARY: was smashed by ten years of Toryism when they increased the public debt in this Province by $2.4 billion to make the total public debt of Newfoundland today $3.2 billion, $3,200,000,000 in a ten year period - $2.4 billion and not a thing to show for it. Mr. Chairman, it is absolutely disgraceful. They should hang their heads in shame. There are eleven or twelve of them over there who have been in the government, ministeFs of the Crown, since 1972.

Some of them have been there since '72,and otherE for varying periods ,from 1972 up to the present time - eleven or twelve of them. And they have the face of a robber's horse to stand in this House and point their finger at the Opposition and say, 'Oh, look what you did, look what the Liberals did'. Yes, well,I just told the House what the Liberals did and, Mr. Chairman, they will be hearing.more about it in the future. !'.ot that I believe in dwelling on the past 1 but we have something to be proud of, we have something to boast about, Mr. Chairman. MR. FLIGHT: Hear, hear. MR.

NEARY: And never again should any member of this House on the Opposition benches,or any Liberal in Newfoundland or any young person in this Province who may not know what happened in the last ten, fifteen or twenty years in this Province, who may not understand what has happened, never again should a Newfoundlander, if he voted Liberal, hang his head in shame. It should be just the opposite, Mr. Chairman, it should be the reverse. ~o wonder the Premier has five or six bodyguards escorting him around this Province, no wonder, Mr. Chairman, unjustified as it is. MR. WARREN: A good industry. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, is that the only way they can create employment in this Province? MR. WARREN: Well,that is one of the ways. 7 71 7

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2889 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: No wonder they have bodyguards, no wonder they have insulated themselves from the ordinary people of this Province, they are troashamed to meet people and look them straight in the eye. Mr. Chairman, I fling out the challenge again to the Premier and to his colleagues, pick one year of the_ Smallwood administration, any one year from 1949 up to 1972, January 18th, pick one year and I will put that one year up against ten years of TOryism in this Province.~nd that is something to be proud of, Mr.

Chairman, that is something to boast about and that is something to record in the history books of this Province. I am so proud to be a Liberal, Mr. Chairman, that I could talk about it all day and I will deal - AN HON. MEMBER: Your time is just about up. MR. NEARY: - I know my time is j~st about up but I want another half hour or so so I can deal with a couple of the blunders that this hon. crowd made,and deal with the aluminum smelter they are talking about for Labrador and deal with the Upper Churchill and deal with the Lower Churchill and deal with the transmission of power across the Province of Quebec.

I intend to deal with these matters before this bill goes through.If it goes through this day, Mr. Chairman, it will only be after I have had ample opportunity to thoroughly debate these matters in this House. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird): The hon. member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, is this a private harangue or can we all get involved?Because,I suppose,it is just as well that we let the hon. gentleman say all that stuff because if he did not say it in this House,he would probably write it all over the walls. 7718

June 30, 1981 Tape 2890 PK - 1 MR. J. CARTER: So perhaps we are saving the the confines of t~is House ~rom being defaced. MR. HANCOCK: (Inaudible) on standby or (inaudible). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. J. CARTER: The hon. gentleman asked us to pick a year. Well,I will pick the year that Valdmanis went to jail, I think, that is probably the best year to pick, and that was the year that the former, former premier showed either extremely bad judgment or something much worse. And I am just amazed, absolutely amazed that the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) can find anything to say in praise of the former premier. Because last Friday, I believe it was, when I got up to speak I pointed out quite clearly that obviously the two former premiers got together in 1975 and caused the Liberal Party to be defeated. Now,I am very glad they were defeated but I think it was an unworthy,mean-those were worthy means to use. And if the Liberal Party had not been defeated by Mr.

Smallwood,the bon. member who just sat down would probably be a minister in the government today, the Minister of Welfare, in which he could try and repair some of the damage he did on Bell Island, or he could be Minister of Justice and he could perhaps disbar all the lawyers whom he loves so well, or perhaps he could be Minister of Finance and then he could, perhaps, show us how to generate the vast sums that he says the Liberal government would spend. I would like him to get u~--he says he is going to jump up in his seat again, a-box - he is the eternal jack-in- MR.

HANCOCK: There will be a certain l!DVernent in the Province. MR. CARTER: I would like to hear him say, I challenge him to deny that his hero torpedoed the Liberal Party in 1975. It is quite clear what thev did. Any fool with a pencil and paper and a bit of a back of the envelop arithmetic, can very quickly see that is exactly what was done. AN HON; MEMBER: So what? 7 71 9

June 30, 1981 Tape 2890 PK - 2 MR. CARTER: So what? So you love the man who defeated - MR. HISCOCK: Democracy. MR. CARTER: Democracy~ Democracy to split the vote. MR. HISCOCK: (Inaudible). MR. CARTER: And as for the Open Line this morning, I do not make it a practice to listen to the Open Line but it is very, very easy to salt it. And I would say that Alma Badcock and a few of her creatures got on the Open Line this morning. MR. NEARY: Now the (inaudible) in the Province. MR. CARTER: Those are political names, Mr. Chairman, - MR. NEARY: Alma Badcock was (Inaudible) one Open Line. MR.

CARTER: - those are political names and if a person chooses to )?Ut his name down, to put their reputation into the political field,they have to take what they - MR. NEARY: · Are you making a speech for the government now? Are you the government spokesman? MR. CARTER: No,I am not the government spokesman. I am merely a backbencher voicing my opinion. A backbencher with a good memory , I might add, and I can well remember - $0 ME HON, MEMB ERS: 0])., oh: MR.

CARTER: I can well remember what a snivelling toady the bon. gentleman was when he sat over here, the former premier .used to snap his fingers calling him to new depths of subservience, AN HON. MEMBER: Just look at the pain on your colleagues Cinaudible) when you get up making a fool of yourself C:i:naudible ). 7720

June 30, 1981 Tape 2890 PK - 3 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CARTER: But, you know, Mr. Chairman, it is not for the big things that I despise the Smallwood administration, it was for the little things they did, the small things, Re was a small man, he is well named, Smallwood, because he is a small man with a small mind and a small horizon, and I think it is just incredible that hon. gentlemen opposite can find anything about those years to praise. And I would just like to see how the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) when he gets to his feet again, as he certainly will, can justify being torpedoed in 1975 MR.

HANCOCK: (inaudible) MR. CARTER: (Inaudible)~ich·man's university - by the most disgraceful politician that ever held power in all the history of this.nation, and I would include in that even the Beothucks whom '·ve know very little about. They may have had a tyranc or two and I would say that Smallwood out-classed even them ·. So there. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird): The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Chairman, as the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has said,that it is for too long, Mr.

Chairman, in this House Liberals throughout the ProvinceJ or after ten years hearing propaganda, particularly our younger people- ten years ago people who were ten years are =w twenty- or aqed eiqht- are now votin<T. What they have heard, they have heard continuallYsaid in this Province that the Liberals - the definition of a Liberal is they will sell the resources down the drain. But in those ten years, Mr. Chairman, before I go on, being a young Liberal boy myself, one of the things that the member for St. John's North (Mr.

Carter) ended up saying, the year Valdmanis -well I do not, and I do not think anybody on this side wants to get into mud flinging and that, we do not want to bring up 7721

June 30, 1981 Tape 2891 EC - 1 MR. HISCOCK: Mr. A. B. Walsh and various other documents that have gone on in th~ past. So as I said, if we want to get into that it is quite easy to bring it down to that level. But one of the things I do find is that discourtesy is being done in this House, not only finding out the Lieutenant-Go~ernor is corning, but not getting copies of Ministerial Statements, and as I said, we are seeing the top and the level, the decorum of this Hous~. The President of the Council (Mr.

Marshall) is always chastizing us and saying that we should uplift the standards of this House, and yet the Speaker says this is one of the better Houses of Assembly or of Parliament that he has seen in the nation. But I want to talk about the ten years that we have seen ~he government - the ten years of no jobs, the ten years that have had the impact upon education, the creation of the university and free tuition, and as soo~ as Mr. Moores and Mr. Crosbie got in, because they were from very wealthy families, they ended up cutting it back.

And now we find out that students at the university or the trade schools or the fisheries college are finding it even harder. The youth of this Province again have got very, very little from the administration. I was rather surprised at the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) when he tabled Alcohol and Drug Dependenc y in Newfoundland and Labrador. When he tabled it, he was very, very brief and he did not say that from 1970 to 1978, the Tory years, the consumption of alcohol went up from 1.3 gallons to 2.4 gallons in 1978, higher than Saskatchewan, Quebec, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. 7722

June 30, 1981 Tape 2891 EC - 2 MR. HISCOCK: Teenage drinking in that period increased by 90 per cent,between 1970 and 1978,and there are an estimated 20,000 alcohol addicted individuals in Newfoundland, increasing 7 per cent each year, and over 10 per cent of the people in Newfoundland and Labrador, adult drinkers, suffer from alcohol-related disabilities, a population of · approximately 50,000 individuals. A number of individuals who died in 1980 in Newfoundland and Labrador of alcohol-related conditions is estimated at 500.

Of these 500 deaths, 100 were due to cirrhosis of the liver, the incidence of which is increasing approximately 40 per cent since 1970. Also, upward of 50 per cent of violent crimes are alcohol-related and it has been estimated that the life expectancy of the native population is reduced by thirty years below the national average on account of excessive drinking and that within two years, Newfoundland will exceed the national average consumption which is 2.6 per cent. In those ten years, Mr. Chairman, with no jobs in this Province of ours being created, no wonder our people are turning to drink.

No wonder they are on unemployment insurance. If we had no unemployment insurance what a state the economy would be in! If we did not have U.I.C. and if we did not have Canada Works projects - take all those things aside and take the number of people who are on unemployment insurance or other related social services and you would find, Mr. Chairman, that this Province of ours basically after 484 years,has almost come to a standstill. There are bankruptcies upon bankruptcies upon bankruptcies in this Province.

We are finding our construction companies declaring bankruptcy, we are finding our small business, we are even finding Avco Finance and other companies like that, lending institutions, going bankrupt. 7723

June 30, 1981 Tape 2891 EC - 3 MR. HISCOCK: So, Mr. Chairman, after ten years, what do our people have to look forward to in this Province? 7724

-- ~ ---- - - June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2892 EL - 1 MR. HISCOCK: Theidea of the future, tighten your belt and we will have Hibernia coming onstream in five or six years time. Well, Hibernia is not going to help the student in Cartwright who wants to go to Labrador who cannot afford it this year. Hibernia is also not going to help put various other educational facilities in the schools around this Province. We have seen the institution of Grade XII, For what reason? I still do not know.

Andi also believe 1and I will go on record now as saying, that vli thin two or three years we are going to find out that our education system-~nd our educators are going to find out-that we made a mistake like we made with the newmath. And what we have found that we are creating a monster and we are not giving them, we are not giving our school boards or our communities enough money to run these schools and enlarge them and give them the facilities and we are going to have a drop in our level of education within two or three years. And I see that coming and I know it is coming. But, Mr.

Chairman, one of the main things, as I said, after ten years, Mr. Chairman, of Tory ad­ ministration in this Province,what have we seen? We have seen a continual taking out from time to time, the skeleton out of the closet and shaking the Smallwood years upside down hoping that Valdmanis will pop out and Mr. Doyle will pop out and Mr. Vardy will pop out. Well, two of those people are dead and I believe very strongly that the dead should rest in peace. I also believe very strongly, as the member for St. John's North (J.Carter) said,that Mr. Smallwood's home, he knows where his home is going to be.

I would go as far as to say thatif the President of the Council (W.Marshall) and the member for St. John's North had their way, they would not even allow them to be burried. They would probably put them out on the Strait o~ Belle Isle rocks or something andleave them there and lettheir 7725

June 30, 1981 MR. HISCOCK: the centuries. Tape No. 2892 EL - 2 bones blow away in the wind over But, Mr. Chairman, there is no question about it, that what is going to remain are going to be his monurents and this is one that we are standing in now. The university is another. The social services is another. The highways are another and various other related ones. And I, as I said, Mr. Chairman, one of the things I would like to re­ mind this House and I wquld like to remind the Province that Liberalism did not start, as great as Mr. Smallwood was, Lib­ eralism did not start with Mr. Smallwood.

He was only carrying on the tradition of Little, Bond, Squires and various other - and Coaker - and various other great leaders of our party. This government would like to think that -and a lot of people i~ this Province might like to think, particularly St. John's - that Newfoundland started in 1949. We had 484 years and only thirty-odd of those belong to the Confed­ eration years. And I think we have a tendancy to forget about that. But, Mr. Chairman, after ten years, what have we got? What do we have? We hear - all we hear is about the Linerbqard Mill.

But I would go as far as to say, if that blunder was not done by the former Minister of Finance for Canada, Mr. Crosbie,and had logs come down instead of chips may­ be Linerboard would be operating. But put that aside. At least the building is there. At least the people in Stephenville,who show no gratitude whatsoever, at least the people in Stephenville are working in a building and in an industry that was put there - MR. NEARY: By the Liberals. MR. HISCOCK: - by the Liberals themselves. And with regard to the Churchill Falls Corporation 7726

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2893 DW - 1 MR. E. HISCOCK: and the problems related there, i! that was not nationalized we would have had the Lower Churchill and Muskrat Fall _s created now and we \olould not see all the waste of money going in the Strait of Belle Isle with the tunnel that was drilled for $150 million. All the other ones that we have a tendency to bring out from time to time f we bring out, I believe, the rubber factory in Holyrood and we bring out some other silly things of the past. Even with that,and I think our people are beginning to realize that even with all the mistakes that Mr.

Smallwood made ,and even with all the mistakes that Bond made and Squires made and Coaker made it all added up to $750 million. All the mistakes! All the mistakes,even with the good points! But now we have $3.5 billion and we are seeing them add up more and more and now we have the saviour of our Province, Newfound­ land and Labrador, our present Premier, that he is going to solve all these problems. that all these other people never, never did before. And the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) is going to be his chief advisor, that after 484 years this is what we have come to. Well,· as I said, Mr.

Chairman, we talk about the arrogance of the Prime Minister of Canada but not so much arrogance as we have in our own Province here. But after ten years, as I said, Mr. Chairma~,I think the skeleton is beginning to wear thin. There is a very little bit of bones left on it! And I think their act is becoming rather redundant and that the people would like to see more than the past!

We have skipped over the eight years of the Moores' administration, we have skipped over all the contracts and the idea that a lease-when they brought in the Tender Act they claimed that the great - this is one of the things that I am amazed at ,..ri th this government, and I am again surprised that the press do not see through it that all the time they are into the cosmetics, they are into the facial aspects of government, 7727

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2893 OW - 2 MR. E. HISCOCK: the public opinion, the Arts Council, the Labour Relations Board, the Status of Women. Give them all a little crumb/ $150,000 here, $100,000 there, $40,000 here, $50,000 to the Federation of Hayors and Municipalities' creating the image that we are going ahead but in actual fact we are not doinq anvthinq. T•Te are just trying to keep them quiet• And, I1r. ~~' after ten years that is basically what I find that we are after putting this Province on hold. Just putting it on hold and expecting that the pie is in the sky.

How many times have our people in this Province had to wait? 'Oh, as soon as the pulp mill is built in Corner Brook 1 Newfoundland is going to g~t on its prosperity, as soon as the one in Grand Falls, as soon as we have the Come by Chance, as soon as we have the linerboard, as soon as we have the Lower Churchill and the Trans- Canada'. Now, we are hearing, 'As soon as we get Hi­ berni-a'. But, Mr. Speaker, I am very,very pleased that the Premier has now created the image in this Pro­ vince that we are going to get the billions and the billions.

Even now he is saying Hibernia is not going to be the dream, that it is not going to solve all our problems in this Pro­ vince. After three or four years of building them up,now he realizes that it is not going to solve the problems and now he is trying to prepare our people that this Hibernia is not going to be the be all and the end all. But in the meantime what has he done? He has completely neglected the rural areas of our Province. And I was rather surprised by the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) getting up and announcing the native programme.

I would like to have him get up in this House and announce the uniform rate for electricity for all the Province,particularly his own native Labrador. I would like to see the places of Pinsent's Arm and Norman Bay end up getting power. 7728

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2894 SD - 1 MR. HISCOCK: I would like to see the schools along the Coast built up to a provincial standard. According to the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) they are below sub-standard. I would like to see the housing along the Coast of Labrador improved and various other projects. I would like to see the start of the Freedom Road that was supposed to start back in 1972. But this government is great in getting up and taking credit from the federal government with regard to the money. And the ~inister stated that it is the federal government's constitutional responsibility to the natives.

How many times do they also get up and say, 'Oh, we cannot do this, we cannot do that even though it is our provincial responsibility of const~tutionality but no, we cannot afford it'. So as I said, you will hit them with one side and they will whack you back with the other. But ten years of no jobs, Mr. Chairman, ten years of depression in this Province, ten years of telling our people that this Tory government is good for you, that basically we got rid of the corruption, we got rid of all the things and that. Well, Mr.

Chairman, we are now beginning to find out that after eight years of the Moores' administration a few cracks are beginning to come in the seams. And people in this Province are beginning to ask how come the prese~t Premier has not put out the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), what is it that the Minister of Fisheries knows that if he gets out- he is known to have a big mouth now- but if he gets out of the Cabinet, was put out, then what is he going to get on with. We know the smear campaians he did on the former Leader of our Party, Mr. Rowe. And they also the question, Mr.

Chairman, they ask with regard to the Minister of Labour and Ma:1ncwer (Mr. Dinn), why again is the Premier keeping him in. And the Premier is keeping ~ in and everybody is keeping tight together so that they can keep their unity among themselves. But there are cracks 7729

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2894 SD - 2 MR. HISCOCK: appearing and the cracks are becoming bigger and bigger all the time and our people are becoming disillusioned after ten years, Mr. Chairman, of saying that the pie is at the end of the rainbow. Well, Mr. Chairman, we have been waiting now for that for ten years and Ne still do not have it. But as I said, the fraud that is oerpetrated on our people by this ten years of propaggnda , in the Evening Telegram and part of the CBC and also St. John's. St.

John's has a stranqe effect on one's mind .And,I suppose, it is like any area.once you live in it you become assimilated. This is why a lot of the Liberals, when they go o~t to Alberta, after a couple of years they vote Tory because of peer pressure. But with regard to St. John's here, after you live here for a while and you come into the area and you are back and forth, you h.ave a tendency to think, because of the Tory mentality in St. John's and it has always been there- and I do not say that is negative or positive, it is just there, just like parts of Labrador and parts of rural Newfoundland are Liberal.

But what you do have in that attitude, you have an attitude that nobody can do anything right for Newfoundland, that it is only the St. John's people that know the way. And as Mr. Clyde Wells, a former MHA in this House said, St. John's is a parasite on the rest of Newfoundland and Labrador. I would not say it was necessarily a parasite on Newfoundland and Labrador ,because we need a capitol and it is just as well to have the capitol here as anywhere else. But with regard to it, Mr. Chairman,±£ St. John's had its own way, not one cent would be spent out in the outlying areas. St.

John's wants to grow larger and larger and larger, but there is nobody, Mr. Chairman,as good to St. John's , as good as the Moores administration was and the Peckford administration is, there was nobody as good to St. John's as the Trudeau 7730

I'T" June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2894 GS - 3 MR. HISCOCK: Liberal gove:nm1ent in Ottal'la and Mr. Smallwood , when he was here. Fie created the Confederation Building; he made St. John's a service centre for the university, the Fisheries College, the Trades School; he got into Northeast Atlantic Assembly; he got into Nel.,.town­ Mount Pearl area and developed that. We have the White Hills; 7731

""- June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2895 EL - 1 MR. HISCOCK: we have the Health Science Corn- plex, we have the engineering, we have the Taxation Data Centre, the Sir Humphery Gilbert Building, X number of other things that were put he~e by the Liberals, the Cross-Town Arterial Road corning in from the Trans-Canada, lit now by Mr. Trud~au. After all these things pumping into it, you would think St. John's would start waking up like most urban areas, like Montreal and Toronto and Vancouver and Halifax and St. John,of.returning some Liberals so that they could get more money.

Historically it has been a fact that the Liberals have been in power more in Canada than the Tories but does St. John's get in that way? Do they put somebody on the side? I find it rather amusing that in the last election the main campaign or slogan in St. John's area,'Let us not have another Newfie joke. Let us make sure that we have a Tory government in ~ewfoundland now that we have a Tory government in Ottawa'. We got the fish and chips. Well, the people in St. John's bought it but they would have bought it anyway and that was the main slogan that was going around.

But I am saying when this govern­ ment got to go into election within the next year and a half, and hopefully before 1will they be saying now,with the Liberal government in Ottawa 1 that we need a fish and chips relationship,that we need to have a Conservative government here to fight for our rights? That is what they are going to say now. We need a Conservative government here because we have to fight Ottawa to protect our rights. But because there was a Conservative government 1well,you had to work in co-operation. And I would say, Mr.

Chairman, that Ontario has shown that it can co-operate with a Liberal government, and also New Brunswick,but this government has shown it cannot co-operate with anybody. Not with their own problems 7732

June 30, 1981 Tape No. 2895 ' EL - 2 MR. HISCOCK: with Nova Scotia or with their other problems with Ontario. But, Mr. Chairman, with regard to the years,and the Minister of Fisheries (J. Morgan) mentioned the Diefenbaker years• he also failed to poi~t out,with the Diefenbaker years in regard to Term 29J what Mr. Diefenbaker felt towards Newfoundland. And if you want to see anybody who stood up and fought for Newfoundland then, St. John's,even Tory St. John's 1 turned again _st their Tory Prime Minister in Ottawa and alJ. of St. John's was draped in black. So, Mr.

Chairman, when it came to fighting, the Conservatives or the Tories or whatever name the people want to use on them,had no monopoly in standinq uP for the rights of this Province. MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) MR. HISCOCK: But after ten years, Mr. Chairman, after ten years of Tory administration ,there is no question that this country is coming to a standstill. But, also another policy another policy that has happened ,and Mr. Crosbie was very good in planting it• is saying because of Mr. Trudeaus' strong tactics, Mr. Chairman, - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HISCOCK: - because of Mr.

PeckfrJrds' strong tactics with regard to Ottawa 1 that sarehow or another, Mr. Chairman, that the Prime Minister was going to punish Newfoundland. The Prime Minister of Canada is not that small. Not only not that small, but \vhen the Conserv,. ·::ives were in there, and let not the press, particularly_, forget 7733

June 30, 1981 Tape 2896 EC - 1 MR. HISCOCK: about this, Mr. Chairman, with regard to this bill- MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN (Ba ird) : Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentlemen there opposite can filibuster if they want to but they have to be relevant, Mr. Chairman. We ·are on a tax bill - MR. HISCOCK: I know we are on a tax bill. MR.

MARSHALL: - the imposition of a gasoline tax and the hon. gentleman is talking about things with respect to the Prime Minister of canada and go:ipg all around the circle everywhere. I mean, there has to be, surely, some bounds of relevancy to this debate. It is not the Throne Speech, neither is it the Budget Speech. Now, I know his friend is going to get up and speak to it, but the fact of the matter is, Hr. Chairman, he is not being relevant. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, to the point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the point of order, the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: To that point of order, Mr.Chairman, I would submit that there is no point of order. Your Honour should rule that relevancy is very difficult to define, that when you are debating a money bill in this House the debate is extremely wide-ranging, there is ample precedent for it. Your Honour can go to Hansard and look back over the years and see that in this House on any money bill, debate is wide-ranging.

You could get up if you wanted to on a money bill, for instance, and read poetry - if you wanted to - as long as you can relate it to revenue or expenditure on the part of taxes collected by the Public Treasury, by the Minister of Finance or by 7734

June 30, 1981 Tape 2896 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: the Newfoundland Government. So in actual fact, Mr. Chairman, there is no point of order. The hon. gentleman may be getting overheated; the hon. gentleman may be sweltering in the heat over there, but it is going to be a long, hot Summer. He may as well sit back and relax and not -try to influence the Chair in any way, shape or form. My hon. friend is in order and in keeping with tradition and precedent in this House . In actual fact, Mr. Chairman, there is no point of order. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Baird): To that point of order, whilst relevancy is hard to define, in borderline cases a member must be given the benefit of the doubt. However, I would like to refer all members back to Erskine May, Page 783. Whilst some degree of flexibility has been allowed, I would ask members to come back a little bit closer to the gasoline bill. MR. HISCOCK: The hon. the member for Eagle River. With regard to that, Mr.

Chairman, the point I was trying to make was because of all the taxation that has been collected by this Province, even with all that we still find that we do not have enough money and that the former Minister of Finance, Mr. Crosbie, has stated that Newfoundland is being punished. And the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) and the government would even go as far as to say the reason why we are being punished is because of our nationalistic stand and therefore we are not getting as much money out of Ottawa and we need to increase the taxes. So that is the point I was trying to make. But, Mr.

Chairman, when Mr. Crosbie and Mr. McGrath were in government in Ottawa,there was a freeze put on for six months. MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) . 7735

T June 30, 1981 Tape 2896 EC - 3 MR. HISCOCK: Okay, they needed to get their house in order, I will even buy that. But three months after that, Mr. Chairman, not one DREE agreement was signed, not one new proposal was put forward, nothing, 7736

June 30,1981 Tape No. 2897 IB-1 MR. HISCOCK: For the nine months, Mr. ·chairman, nothing was done with regard to that fish and chips. We got very little fish and we got even less chips. But with regard to it, Mr. Chairman, he has now stated that Newfoundland is being punished because of the strong tactics of the Premier.

Well, I would like to say with the $40 million for the Native AgFeement,and $47 million for the coastal Labrador DRFF agre'ement, and the $13.5 million for helping modernize the Abitibi Price mill in Stephenville, and the $33 million for bringing in the modernization of the Corner Brook and Grand Falls mills,and the $40 million for the Gros Morne Park area, and also for the airports in Goose Bay and in St.

John's and in Wabush,and with regard to the $50 million for the railway 1 and with regard to the $50 million for the C-core project at the university,and also the cost-sharing arrangement with regard to the Trans­ Canada, dbes that sound like the Liberal Government in Ottawa is punishing Newfoundland? No, it does not, Mr. Chairman. What it does say is that they had a little bit of trouble in communicating back and forth with Ottawa. And with regard to the Prime Minister giving the rights to transmit power through Labrador, was that given, Mr.

Chairman, because of this Premier of ours for fighting for Newfoundland and Labrador? MR. MORGAN: MR. CHAIRMAN (BAIRD): MR. HISCOCK: (Inaudible}. Order, please~ The Prime Minister of this country, Mr. Chairman - Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) always states that he likes to be heard in silence. I would like to have that same courtesy. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. HISCOCK: But with regard to the present situation, with regard to our country and our Dominion Mr. Chairman, we are