Manitoba Hansard — 28 February 1964 (Sitting 24, 27th Legislature, 2nd Session)

27-2-24

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ELECTORAL DIVISION ARTHUR ASSINIBOIA BIRTLE-RUSSELL BRANDON BROKENHEAD BURROWS CARILLON CHURCHILL CYPRESS DAUPHIN DUFFERIN ELMWOOD EMERSON ETHELBERT-PLAINS. FISHER FLIN FLON FORT GARRY FORT ROUGE GIMLI GLADSTONE HAMIOTA INKSTER KILDONAN LAC DU BONNET LAKE SIDE LA VERENDRYE LOGAN MINNEDOSA MORRIS OS BORNE PEMBINA PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE RADISSON RHINE LAND RIVER HEIGH'l'S ROBLIN ROCK LAKE ROCKWOOD- IBERVILLE RUPERTSLAND ST. BONIFACE ST. GEORGE ST. JAMES ST. JOHN'S ST. MA TTHEWS ST.

VITAL STE, ROSE SELKIRK SEVEN OAKS SOURIS-LANSDOWNE SPRING FIELD SWAN RIVER THE PAS TURTLE MOUNTAIN VIRDEN WELLINGTON WINNIPEG CENTRE WOLSELEY NAME J. D. Watt Steve Patrick Hon,Robert G. Smellie, Q. C. R. 0, Lissaman E. R. Schreyer Mark G. Smerchanski Leonard A. Barkman Gordon W. Beard Hon. Thelma Forbes Hon. Stewart E. McLean,Q. C. William Homer Hamilton S. Peters John P. Tanchak M. N. Hryhorczuk, Q. C. Emil Moeller Hon. Charles H. Witney Hon. Sterling R. Lyon, Q. C. Hon. Gurney Evans Hon. George Johnson Nelson Shoemaker B. P. Strickland Morris A. Gray James T. Mills Oscar F. Bjornson D. L.

Campbell Albert Vielfaure Lemuel Harris Hon. Waiter Weir Harry P. Shewman Hon. Obie Baizley Mrs. Carolyne Morrison Gordon E. Johnston Russell Paulley J. M. Froese Hon. Maitland B. Steinkopf,Q. C. Keith Alexander Hon. Abram W. Harrison Hon. George Hutton J. E. Jeannotte Laurent Desjardins Elman Guttormson D. M. Stanes Saul Cherniac k, Q. C. W. G. Martin Fred Groves Gildas Molgat T. P. Hillhous e, Q.C. Arthur E. Wright M. E. McKellar Fred T. Klym James H. Bilton Hon. J. B. Carroll P. J. McDonald Donald Morris McGregor Richard Seaborn James Cowan, Q. C. Hon.

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THE LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Friday, February 28, 1964, MR. EV ANS: Madam Speaker, if my honourable friend from Springfield is ready I would be glad to call the adjourned motion on the budget debate if he is ready to proceed -- interjection- Oh I am so sorry, The Honourable Member for Brokenhead. MR. E. R. SCHREYER: Madam Speaker, I would prefer to speak on Monday please. MR.

EVANS: Then that is that, Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honour able the Attorney-General that Madam Speaker do now leave the chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee·to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: We have before us now Item 3 in Agriculture (

a) Livestock Branch, (a) ... .. MR. MOLGA T: lVIr. Chairman, on the livestock branch this afternoon before the Orders of the Day, I was asking the Minister some questions about the International Meeting of the Short horn Breeders Association in Brandon, The reason I brought it up then was because I felt there was some urgency in this matter in view of the fact that the meeting is being held tomorrow. Now this is a very important event in the livestock industry in Manitoba. It's the first time in history that the International Shorthorn Breeders Association have held a meeting in Canada.

The very first time in history is the information that I have, and they have chosen to hold this in Brandon. My information, Mr. Chairman, is that the Government of Manitoba has not parti cipated to the full in this matter; ·that it's held back; that it has not been prepared to co-operate; has not been prepared to send one of the Ministers or representative here; and • certainly the answers given by the Minister on the questions before the Orders of the Day, indicated a great lack of interest on his part, because he could barely indicate any information at all about the situation.

I think this is not good from a Minister who has said so many times, how we must develop the livestock industry in the Province of Manitoba. I1d like to hear a more detailed statement from the Minister tonight as to what participation exactly the Province of Manitoba is having in this most import affair; what financial assistance they are giving to it; what represen tative of the government is going to be there; when the government was approached; and are they providing any dinner for the people who are going to be there; what e�actly are they doing? MR. HUTTON: lVIr.

Chairman, it's a well known fact and one that has received some criticism in this House, while I was Minister, that the Livestock Branch in the Department of Agriculture worked very closely with the Breed Associations here in Manitoba. As a matter of fact, we had to go so far as to make it absolutely clear that it wasn't the Department of Agri culture that was promoting one breed or another in this province, but it was in fact, the parti cular breed association concerned.

Now we have the same party standing up and criticizing the government because they aren 1t closely enough associated with a very important event in Manitoba 1s history. Now as I understand it, this is the International Canadian Show and this is the third province in Canada who have had the privilege of hosting this show and sale.

Now I can't give the honourable members of the House the details of the department's contribution to planning and organizing this sh ow but I don't think there are very many events that take place in the Province of Manitoba agricultural-wise, where the department personnel are not called upon and don't give freely of themselves and the services of the department. As to what extent we are making a financial contribution, I can't say at this minute -- maybe the moccasin messenger will bring me some information on that so that I can give a little more detailed information.

I'm not sure you know that it is a compliment to suggest that the men who are associated with the different breed associations need to lean on the government. These are a very indepen dent group of people. They like to run their own show. Oh yes, they appreciate some help but they like to run their own show. As I understand the development of a shorthorn breed in Can ada and here in Manitoba, this association has been extremely active.

They have their own field men and have done a tremendous job, not just in promoting the shorthorn breed but have done a tremendous job in improving the shorthorn breed; and have had some success in the show ring, some remarkable success in the show ring; and some remarkable success in the bull sales, February 28th, 1964. Page 593

(Mr. Hutton, cont 'd). . . which is attested to by the kind of money that the breeders are willing to pay for these animals, and their growing popularity. Maybe I will get some more information to give to the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition in respect to the detailed assistance that \vas given. Mr. Chairman, before I sit down, I gave some information last night in respect to the Bang •s program that wasn't just quite correct; and I'd like to correct it at this time.

Last night I said that there had been agreement between the Federal Health of Animals people and the Provincial .Veterinarian that the vaccination aids for heifer calves should be restricted to from 4 to 11 months -- that is incorrect. The period has been restricted from 4 to 9 months. That's a lowerlng of the age limit of the animal by two months. This is done to try and avoid the confusion that sometim-es exists in taking these tests for Brucellosis or the vaccination accounts for a high positive

titre reading. Also in c1�der to reduce the incidence of a mistaken reading they allow -- in taking the read-' ing they allow a higher reading to provide for the reaction that might be accounted for by a vaccination. MR. VIELFAURE: While· we are on the Bang's subject, could the Minister tell us how many reactors we had last year and whether they were more or less than the year before? The reason for the question is to determine how effective our vaccination in both the provincial and federal programs was -- the effectiveness of our vaccination program. MR. HUTTON: I'll give you the report that I have here.

During 1962 the Health of Animals Division of the Canada Department of Agriculture completed the first general test of all ca:ttle herd� in Manitoba. As of February 1, 1964 the Health of Animals Division had blood tested 970, 848 animals in herds totalling over one million cattle. They removed 22, 871 reactors from 6, 879 infected herds and paid compensation amounting to $1,715,16 5. 00.

As of February 12, 1964, of 114 Brucellosis control areas in Manitoba 69 are certified as Brucellosis-free for three years from the date of certification, 24 are being re -tested for re -certification, and 1 3 did not certify and are to be re,.-tested; 8 areas have expired and are not yet under re -test. During the period April 1, 1963 to February 1, 1964 -- that is the past year -- 131,922 blood samples have been taken and 1, 061 reactors removed from 318 infected herds, and $75,544. 00 in compensation was paid out.

In addition to necessary testing and re-testing of herds, the Brucellosis ring test is being used on all cream and milk samples in the spring and fall. ·Up to February 1, 1964 since inception 123,468 milk and cream samples were collected, 1, 131 samples were suspicious and 422 infected animals were found in 202 herds. Market I cow tagging has identified 23,580 animals of which 6�8 samples were suspicious; re-testing removed 74 reactors from 24 infected herds.

I would like to say this, that when the complete testing of the herds is completed in Mani toba, which will be done fairly shortly, then I understand that the Federal Government is going to rely on the ring test for milk and cream and on the tests of slau&hter cattle to identify any infection in any of the herds in Manitoba. MR. CAMPBE LL: Mr.

Chairman, with regard to the carrying on after the Federal Health of Animals Branch has ceased their field work and will be relying, as the Minister has mention ed, on the milk tests and the carcass tests, it will be the provincial department, I suppose, that will continue to encourage, and to some extent sponsor, by giving financial assistance, for the continued vaccination of the heifer calves, and in that conneqtion I notice from the annual report -- realizing of course that this is almost a year old now -,that it is stated, the figure is given, as I think I heard the Minister mention a moment ago, the same figure, the number of vaccination certificates on hand at the Livestock Branch at the end of the· fiscal year was 123, 480.

The Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures for the livestock population of Manitoba indicate that in spite of. the annual increase of vaccinate�, the yearly female calf crop is far from being completely vaccinated. This is a point I think that I was trying to get some inform ation from the Minister two or three years ago by asking if this was a pretty complete cover age now, and I notice.that these folks writing this report say that the yearly female calf crop is far from being completely vaccinated. Can the Minister tell us approximately what per centage that is, according to the figures? MR.

HUTTON: About 70 percent. That •s all. MR. CAMP BELL: The Department will be carrying on the encouragement by storing the Page 594 February 28th , 1964.

(Mr. Campbeil, cont'd), .. vaccine and helping the different districts to organize, outlining areas to .organize on a kind of a community basis and get veterinarians to make mass vaccin ations or something of that kind, will they? MR. HUTTON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I can't give a short answer to the Member for Lake side's question. There is some question about the co-existence for very long of the vaccination program and the test program.

The matter hasn •t been resolved and there •s some conflict of opinion amongst the knowledgeable people in this field, the veterinarians; as to whether where you have carried out a test and slaughter program and you have a continuing surveillance 'of the herds, that you need or· want a vaccination program. But this controversy at the technical, professilonallevel hasn't been resolved, and it was dealt with, as I mentioned earlier, at a national conference. The finding of that conference was that for the time being at least we should carry it on.

However, the Province of Saskatchewan has discontinued their compulsory program for vaccination, and some feel that it should be de-emphasized. But it's a question of judgment and not one for a layman such as myself to make, and we are following the consen sus of opinion of the veterinarians across Canada, which is that it should be continued at least for the time being. And this is what we are doing. As you know, in the past the veterinarians of Manitoba have charged $2. 00 per calf.

It didn't matter whether you had one calf to vaccinate or whether you had 50, they still charged $2. 00 per female animal vaccinated, This year we negotiated with them.

We have, reduced our contribution 50 percent, and as I read from the Resolution, they have agreed to charge $1. 50 for the first five and they have agreed as an association to leave their members free to take into account the larger numbers of vaccinates that they may do on these farms and to give due consideration to this in charging the farmers', and we do trust and hope that they will take this into account and that the livestock men will benefit from it. MR. CAMPBE LL: Mr.

Chairman, I notice that the report gave us some statistics re garding the number of doses of brucellosis vaccine that had been stored and shipped over a period of years, and it starts with 1950-1951, That's on page 55. This vaccination campaign started some time before that, I well remember it because I was in at the beginning of it.

I had the great privilege of occupying the position that my honourable friend does now for 12 years, with that tenure of office ending in 1948, and some time -- I don •t know how long before 1948 -- this strain 19 came along and was thoroughly enough tested that it was felt that it could be relied upon for an intensive vaccination campaign, And this proposal of my honourable friend about getting a cut-rate isn't new because we were getting them done -- and I recognize that costs have increased since that time, charges have increased -- we were getting them done wholesale for $1 . 00 per calf which the government was paying, and by organizing several neighbours to get together and group their calves, or at least have them confined in the barn, we were getting them done wholesale by the veterinarian for $1. 00 per , and he was making a fortune at it because he could do a tremendous number of them, but at that time, if I recall the program correctly -- and I know that this vaccine had been very, very thoroughly checked and tested before that time; that doesn •t of course mean that it would be infallible -- but at that time, as I recall the figures, they did not vaccinate to as late an age as the Minister mentioned last evening.

I tmderstood him to say female calves between four and 11 months.

I am sure that in those clays the recommendations we-re to not go beyond eight months, and I think the feeling then was that they became negative again, they should be vaccinated, after a certain time they should show positive, and then after three months I think was the period that they figured then, they should be ne gative, and the idea of cutting it off at eight months or so was to be sure that the negative period arrived before there was any likelihood whatever of a heifer being in calf, or some were even careful enough to say even before they were served, so the program at that time was a pretty -- just less than four months, I think, in total.

My argument -- and I•ve gone over this with rriy honourable friend once before, and I can understand that if the veterinarians have been meeting in a national convention and have re commended some program done, then it's pretty difficult to get away from what they recommend. But I still cannot see why, if this vaccination is as good as we thought it was those times, why we shouldn't continue to.vaccinate all heifer calves of the proper age and then not bother with any blood test. Don •t have any blood test at all because they •re a tremendously unsettling performance with the herds whether they be beef or dairy.

And then if for any reason the February 28th, 1964. Page 595

(Mr. Campbell, cont 1d). • . vaccination fails to be effective providing it has been effective with the vast majority of the calves, no great amount of damage will be experienced if a particular one aborts. But if you let the program stop, as I see it, I think it's the history of contagious brucellosis that the clean herd is the one where a storm always starts and you get a real bad infestation of it. The clean herd is the one that's in danger all the time, and I would think that we must continue the vaccinations and I would say don 1t continue the blood tests. Poke •em all with the vaccine.

Let's leave them on their own from then on. If in some cases it doesn't work, you may have trouble with one animal. If it works with the 99 percent they•re safe; you •ll have no storm of it. But if you have a completely clean herd that •s where brucellosis, when it does strike, is a tragedy to the farmer. So I would say to my honourable friend, with all respect in the world to the veterinarians, we still need to be practical about this thing and in my judgment they carried the blood testing to sort of extreme lengths in some case.

I 1d say from now on -- good idea; we•ve got the herds pretty well cleaned up; but they're not safe when they're cleaned up. A clean herd is a dangerous one so let•s continue the vaccination, eliminate the blood tests. MR. HUTTON: JVIr. Chairman, I wish that I cou ld accept the argument of the Honourable Member for Lakeside because let me assure you that my job would be a lot easier. As you know, this government is not responsible for the test program.

It falls under another juris diction, and I• m sure the Honourable Member for Lakeside knows how hard and difficult it is sometimes to get people in another jurisdiction who ha 'le powers greater than yours to listen, and theprogram has not been carried out without a great deal of hardship to a lot of people. The price that I quoted here that it cost the government was small by comparison, to the people of Canada, compared to the price that was paid by individuals, and I wish that I could accept your proposal. I have listened to veterinarians give your argument.

I have listened to other veterinarians argue strongly the other way, that if you have the test program you don't need the vaccination program. I didn't go to medical college nor veterinary college, so I'm left at a loss. I've listened to them as individually one group and then the other and I• ve listened to them together, and they have left me confused. I don•t think it's a thing where I can afford to trust my judgment, to go out and say that one or the other is right, and this is why I•m tempted to believe the Honourable Member for Lake side, Mr.

Chairman, that a completely clean herd is a vul nerable herd, and that's why we have decided that, despite the testing program, we •re going to carry on with the vaccination program; and until there is more concrete evidence one way or the other, we'll have to go along with both of them, because I think it'll be a terrible mistake to make a premature judgment in this matter at this time, because there •s been an awful lot of money spent by both governments in two programs, and I think we want to be absolutely sure which one •s right before we drop either one of them.

And maybe we 1ll find out that we •cl better carry on a supervisory progTam in testing, and we 'cl better carry on the vaccinating program as well into the future. Personally, as a producer myself, I wouldn't want to take a chance, knowing as little as I know about it right now; and I would advise, and we have decided that the vaccination of female calves in Manitoba shall remain compulsory.

Unfortunately, however, only about 70 percent of them get vaccinated even though it is compulsory, and even though I believe the veterin arians are anxious and willing to vaccinate them all, because as the Honourable Member for Lakesicle has pointed out, their financial returns for performing this task are quite substantial. I believe they are" well paid. I might point out, JVIr. Chairman, that in Alberta the provincial contribution to the vaccination program is about 40 cents per calf, and the farmers can get their calves vaccinated in Alberta for $1. 00. MR. CAMPBE LL: " Mr.

Chairman, I recognize the position that the Minister has been placed in, and I do know the difficulties of what •s considered to be a senior government walking in and starting up a program, and perhaps, perhaps the program is ok, but my understanding was that with the completion of the various areas, that they were going to retire from the field now as far as field work was concerned. Well now, they'll be out of it for awhile, and they'll be checking on milk samples and carcasses, and I heartily agree with the Minister that the right thing to do is carry on with the vaccination.

I don't mind telling him --I've never told this in public before -- but when we were first starting this test back in my time in that Page 596 February 28th, 1964.

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd) ••. posi tion, I didn't find one single veterinarian that agreed with the position that he and I are inclined to look at. I found a lot of the veterinaria ns, including one that was very close to us, that wanted us to take three blood tests -- and imagine this for a profes sional man! One of these veterinarians in particular wanted us to take three blood tests. He wanted us to test first to see what was the -- a blood test first, to see what was the incidence of brucellosis in a given herd. And I said, 11Why, for goodne ss sake?" Well, to see whether they 're clean or not.

" And_the veterinaria ns, some of them at least at that time actually said that if they were clean, don't vaccinate. But that was the time you needed to vaccinate. This was the time, this was-the vulnerable herd. Well then they were going to take a seco nd blood sample after the vaccination, a certain time after, to be sure that then the test was positive, as it should be, if the vaccine had been effective. And then they were going to take another blood test about three mo nths -- or it may have been four -- after that, to be sure that they were negative again.

Well now, I just couldn •t see the sense of that, and I never found a veterinarian to agree with me. I'm glad to hear that there's one so me place that does now. -- interjection - Good. I'm glad of that. I never found one , but we put it in without the blood test, and we vaccinated the calves and we sent people out and we gathered them up in the different com mun ities and got them gathered in by the hundreds in some of the outlying places actually, and vaccinated them all. And I think that's the program to carry on still, and I say to my hon om·able friend, 11Stay with the vets , and ...

" -- interjection -- The ones that agree with you and me. You bet. MR. CHAIRMAN: (

a) passed. MR. VIELFAURE: Mr. Chairman, on 3 (a)

(4) Grants- Herd Improvem ent Associations and Veterinary Service Districts; could the Minister give us a breakdown between these two and could he tell us if there is any mo vement to change the Herd Improve ment associations. I think they've done a terrific job in the past. They've impro ved both the production and the quality of the herds, but I would be inclined to think that we have reached the point where efficiency a_11d effectiveness in the dairy industry would need a full-time man as Herd Improve ment associations manager.

I think that right now with the $1, 800 grant, I think they're doing a wonderful job, but I think mo re is needed at this time, and I'd just like to know if the department is considering som ething along that line. MR. HUTTO N: There are eleven Herd Improvement associations which receive an annual grant of $1, 800 per association. One of these has dropped below the 450 -cow minimum, and is oper ating on a pro-rated grant, The balance o f these mo nies will be provided for a Veterinary Service District.

Just to comm ent on the appeal from the Honourable Member for a little mo re mo ney, he doe sn't !mow how much I wish I had a little more mo ney, and I• d give it to people who are doing the kind of job that these people are doing, and othe rs in other fields. MR. lVIOLGA T: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to hear from the Minister exactly what are the plans of the department for the increase and the improvement of the live_stock, in particular the cattle industry in the Province of Manitoba.

Now, we've heard a great deal about the desir ability of increasing the cattle production, and I couldn't agree mo re with the statement than Manitoba has been falling behind other provinces in the developmen t of our cattle herds. We have many reasons for being ahead of other provin ces. We are closer to the basic. markets. we loave the packing plants already established here, presently oper ating far under capacity.

From the standpoint of employment, it would be highly desirable to increase very subst antially the cattle production in the Province of Manitoba, so as to keep the plant at full production and provide further employment for the Pr ovince of Manitoba. Now I think the Minister and I agree on the se points . We 've had discussions previously in this regard. So, I think there's no dis agreement on the desirability -- in fact, Mr. Chairman, the necessity -- of increasing the cattle herds in the Province of Manitoba. It seems to me, howeve r, Mr.

Chairman, that the policies of the department are in reverse in this matter; while the Minister is talking about increasing the number of cattle and improving the quality, that in fact he is discontinuing a large number bf policies that were originally designed to do two things, improve our cattle and increase our cattle, because since the past two or three years we •ve seen the following policies reduced or disco ntinued. First of all, we had a bull purchase policy, Originally when this government came in, the February 28th, 1964. Page 597

(Tvir. Molgat, cont 'd) ... Province contributed 20 percent of the purchase of a good herd bull up to $80,00. The purpose of this policy was to permit ranchers or farmers who did not have a good sire bull, to purchase one. The government reduced this first of all to 15 percent and $60. 00, and then subsequently they discontinued it altogether. So, the bull policy for the improvement of cattle herds is now gone. They have, by the way, done the same thing in the field of hogs, where the boar rental policy of $8.00 per year has been discontinued, In the field of the sheep industry, the same thing.

They have discontinued in the past year the ram rental policy, Those are now gone by the wayside. There's no assistance from the department. Going on to other fields, they had a policy of assistance in warble fly powder, tln·ough, I think, the municipalities where there was a reduced price for the cattle industry. This has been discontinued. Ih the sheep industry there was the worm powder. This has been dis continued.

There was a forage assistance program, where we -- I say "we 11 -- the govern ment was prepared to assist farmers who wanted to set up a ten-acre plot of forage for the purpose, I think mainly, of proving and showing what.could be accomplished by better seed and better forage production, that the government assisted, This has been discontinued. So there are a series of policies, Mr. Chairman, originally designed for the increase and the improve ment of the livestock industry in the Province of Manitoba discontinued by the government.

At the same time, we have the Minister of Mines and Natural Resmmces coming out at long last with a policy for the land tenure in the province, It took him five years, I will admit, to get around to making up a policy on it, but eventually they came round and they huve developed one. But the main effect of the policy really seems to be to increase the costs of rented lands to the farmers.

So, we have discontinued policies, and the only policy that has been established finally is this one of long term tenure, but it's been mainly an increase in cost insofar as the rancher is concerned, Now, I can't see how this ties in with the statements of the government that they want to encourage the livestock production in the Province of Manitoba. MR. HUTTON: Mr. Chairman, I don 1t think that I have ever been asked in the Legislature about the fact that we discontinued certain policies, and I welcome this opportunity to give an explanation.

I wouldn't want to suggest that these policies weren't good policies in their day, but they have been there an awful long time. They were introduced as educational and demonstration policies and they stood on the books for a long time, and in the case of the sire purchase policy, the number of purebred sires purchased under this grew every year for many years, but it was felt by the department that some of these policies has served their term and they should be discontinued. Take the sire purchase policy for instance. As it grew, like some programs do it became subject to some abuse.

As the standard of livestock was raised in tl1e province over the years, this policy was less effective that it had been. Oh, it was utilized by the people who were buying sires, but when we analyzed it, it looked to us as if all that was happening was that the government was paying an e::d;ra sixty or eighty dollars, or whatever the case may be, or fifty dollars, but the buyer of that animal wasn't necessarily getting the benefit of it -- of the government contribution.

Another thing, it necessitated that our government representatives, either the ag rep or the Livestock Branch, spent all their time running around the Province of Manitoba looking at these animals, and it wasn•t always an easy task to turn down an animal that they didn't think came up to -- qualified, because it might be a purebred animal; it might have all the breeding and the papers and so forth behind it but due to mismanagement and poor management it really didn't qualify, And so it did interfere to some extent in the usefulness of the department representative when he was put in the position where he had to say no, and they had to say no.

Now for these reasons and because there was quite a body of opinion amongst the breeders themselves that this policy was no longer serving the purpose for which it was originally intended, we decided to cut it out. Now on the boar re�tal policy, At the time that this was brought in it was a very useful policy and it proved its worth in the earlier days, where the department bought a boar and made it available on a rental basis to a number of farmers -- small hog producers -- and it demon strated the advantages of using a quality sire and the assistance this was in raising the quality of market swine.

But of later years, disease in swine has become a very troublesome man agement factor in the production of this product. And I don •t know of a better way of spreading disease in swine than mixing a bunch of little herds up. The sire in this case could become a ··s·ource of infection, and so we thought the day had gone by for this type of policy. Page 598 February 28th, l964.

• (Mr. Hutton, cont 'd) ... In the case of the ram rental policy, we found ourselves in the embarrassing position where the Manitoba Department of Agriculture was the only bidder at a ram sale. There was nobody else there to bid, and so we had to figure out what was a fair price to give to the breeders for these animals and then that was the price that was paid. Nobody else would bid.

And so those people who were in the production, who owned the breeding herds in this province, were tickled to death when we got out of the field because it had a stimulating effect on the market for their breeding rams, and this is important. You don't want the government stifling initiative. Now in the case of·forage demonstration plots -- yes, we discontinued them --oh, just a minute -- warble fly powder. The reason that we discontinued warble fly powder was that we had all this administration associated with this program -- it wasn •t just the cost of the powder.

We had the administration costs associated with it, and in the face of the fact that warble fly powder is no longer recommended as the No. 1 treatment for warble fly it didn •t seem very sensible for the government to continue this program, and so we discontinued it. In the case of forage demonstration plots, this was introduced at a time when people were completely oriented, or almost completely oriented, to the growing of cereal grains as opposed to legumes and grasses, and it was a very meaningful program just to get a 10-acre plot out there and show a farmer what he could produce.

But this program, too, had lost its utility, as more and more farmers started to grow grasses and legumes in the province. But while we discontinued this program, we stepped up our emphasis on another program in that department - that•s the Department of Soils and Crops -- it's another forage program where we pay a third of the cost of grass seed for up to thirty acres of land, and we have made more money available to this program because we think it is more meaningful today when you're talking about the numbers of cattle and the larger cattle herds that people are going into today.

Now, in the case of these lease policies, it •s true and I don't deny-- this isn't my field really, although I'm extremely interested in the leasing policies since what one government department does affects another, and I think I•m just as interested in this one as the 1\llinister of Mines and Natural Resources. In terms of these new long term leases, I think that the enthusiasm of the ranchers and farmers to get hold of these long term leases is a measure of the value of these leases to these people.

I haven't got the figures right at hand, but as I recall there's been something like a doubling or better in the demand for crown grazing and hay lands in the province in the last four years, I think since 1961.

In fact there was almost a doubling in the number of leases held, and I tmderstand -- and I expect that the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources will deal with this in detail: I would e:h1Ject he might when he comes to his estimates -- but I tmderstand that there are about two requests, there are about two requests for every available piece of grazing land and hay land in the -- interjection -- well, and they waited a long time before that too. No, no, they didn't. Oh, no, they didn't. And we believe that this is going to be a boon to the cattle industry in the province.

Well, I've talked about -- until I came to the leases -- to the things that we had dropped and why we dropped them, but what have we put in their place? And I can tmderstand the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition when he looks at the livestock estimates, or author izations, asking himself that question. But the key to livestock development in Manitoba is feed. The programs that we might put into the Livestock Branch are not the key to doubling our cattle population in Manitoba.

We are going to require, in order to reach a goal of two million cattle in the next 12 years, we are going to require stupendous amounts of feed. We had trouble finding feed in 1961 for less than a million head of cattle.

Now if we hope to be able to carry two million head o:!" ..::attle through a year like that in the Province of Manitoba, we •re going to have to put a great deal of energy into making sure that the source of supply of feed is greatly increased in this province, and so you are going to find that the programs that we are substituting for these are coming under the Soils and Crop estimates, or authorizations, and I might as well tell you some of them. This year we are providing monies for a progrr.m toknock down the bush, the useless bush, in the Interlake and Westlake area.

It•s a program which will enable under certain conditions, to allow the rancher and the farmer to knock down this bush with a ball and chain or other comparable equipment. -- interjection -- No they haven't. Maybe I should explain, lVIr. Chairman, what a ball and chain is. MR. PAULLEY: I thought you were talking about a different type of ball and chain. February 28, 1964 Page 599

MR. HUTTON: A ball and chain is a very simple piece of equipment although it is quite heavy. I don't know whether the Honourable the Leader of the NDP could lift one of the links in the chain or not. MR. PAULLEY:_ Mine isn't that heavy. MR. HUTTON: I doubt it. MR. PAULLEY: No, no, mine isn•t that heavy. He wouldn't know what to do with it if ... MR. HUTTON: The ball is a huge thing that weighs many tons and there is a chain runs out on either side of it which is attached to two big caterpillar tractors. MR. PAULLEY: I used one. MR. HUTTON: These caterpillar tractors go through the bush about 100 feet apart ...

MR. PAULLEY: That's right�- and they sweep everything ... /·_MR. HUTTON: And they sweep everything ahead of them. MR. PAULLEY: Just like a fishing ..... , that's right. MR. HUTTON: And it is a very economical way of knocking down bush and renovating it for pasture land, and we are hoping through this program to encourage and help the farmers in the Interlake and in the Westlake area to bring more of their land into production.

There is a real shortage, and this is hard to believe, but there's a shortage of hay in the Inter lake area with a growing cattle population because so much of that land is covered with useless poplar bush. We have another program which is going to give incentive to the farmers in the south and west of Manitoba to use chemicals to control the brush in these prairie pastures. It is estimated that we can increase the sharing capacity of these pasture lands in southern and western Manitoba, that we increase their sharing capacity by quadrupling it, that they could carry four times the cattle. Now, Mr.

Chairman,this is where we are going to put our emphasis, is in providing feed for the cattle. It isn't the only thing we are doing. Last year we announced that there was provision in the estimates for a provincial veterinarian. This year we have just been successful in hiring a provincial veterinarian. He is a Dr.

Jack McGowan of Alberta r.nd Ontario where he has just completed post-graduate work, and he has been hired by the department to come here and work with our farmers, ranchers, the cattlemen, the livestock people in this province, and with the veterinarian services in the province, the private veterinarians, etc., to make sure that we have adequate health-of-animal programs to accommodate our grov.ing herds.

Last year we provided for the establishment of a seed testing station at the university, and now farmers are able to send in samples of the seeds that they are using and to get a complete analysis from this seed testing laboratory. So we are doing and substituting new programs for those that we are casting aside, and I wouldn't pretend for a minute that the job is nearly done. In the case of the boar rental policy which we threw out, we have substituted the elite swine breeding program; we have two applications at the present time from breeders in Manitoba and others that are showing interest.

We hope when this gets going that this will make a contribution to improving the quality of the breeding stock in this province. We have substituted for the sheep industry. We have co-operated with the federal government in providing a freight assistance program on western ewes being brought into the province to establish herds where anyone who wants to bring in may -- anyone can get freight assistance on a minimum of 50 ewes or a maximum of 200 ewes and get the assistance of the Government of Canada livestock officials and our own in picking out these ewes, in the selection, and bringing them into Mimitoba.

The federal government pays a third of the freight, we pay a third and the farmer or rancher pays a third. We feel that these programs are up to-date programs and f�r the time being at least are meeting the needs in the livestock industry. Undoubtedly they're going to have to be changed in the future too. MR. CHAIRMAN: .. '. ... . passed. MR. MOLGAT: .. .. . Mr.

Chairman, .... the Minister indicate then that really, in the Department of Agriculture, they have discontinued a large number of policies originally designed for the increase and improvement, but that he has really replaced it with nothing in the Agriculture Department; that the increase from now on is going to be in the hands of my friend, the Minister of Mines and Natural Re sources. Now certainly as the ex Attorney-General Page 600 February 28, 1964. I

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd) .•• he will be, I'm sure, very well-informed and we will look forward to his department with a great deal of enthusiasm to find out exactly what his policies are for the increase in the livestock industry in Manitoba. So far, the only indication I have is that the main purpose is to increase the cost to the farmers. Now exactly how this is going to increase the production I don't. quite know, but I will wait with bated breath to hear from that honourable gentleman.

But in the Department of Agriculture then, we have mainly discontinued policies because the Minister says that they weren't effecti.ve. Well if you look at his own report, Mr. Chair man --- I'm referring rrow to the annual report of the Department of Agriculture and Conser vation -- you find, for example, on page 45 that the sire purchase policy was increasing.

There •s been a slight drop from '60-61 to '61 -62 but certainly from 161-62, 162-63 there was a very substantial increase, from 1, 092 sires up to 1, 452, and of this most of the people involved were getting a sire from the government for the first time because there were 350 one year and 483 tlje next year who were second assistants; all the rest were new assistants, so it was in 161-62 some 700 or so who for the first time made use of this policy. In 16'2-63 it was almost 1, 000 of the farmers of this province who made use of this.

Now I don •t quite see how that equates with the Minister's statement that the program was not effective when you see that there was an increase in the use. Similarly, in the boar and ram field it seems to me that with the federal government certainly in the ram field already prepared to assist in purchase price and in transportation, that there was a program that could have been developed, encouraged, and would have had an effective policy. But the Minister tells us it doesn •t.

I, frankly, don •t see in his replacements any moves there that will, in his department, enhance the development of the livestock industry in the Province of Manitoba. Now what about the quality improvement, Mr. Chairman? Surely the programs where the government was responsible in participating in the procurement, the choice and assistance in getting good sires, was a sound policy for the improvement .of the herds in the province. I well remember, Mr.

Chairman, when my honourable friends opposite used to sit on this side and the gentleman who later became Minister of Agriculture and is now the Lieutenant Governor of the Province, used to have a great deal to say to us, sitting on the other side of the House, about how the quality of Manitoba livestock was far below that of other provinces; how we were trailing behind what the others were doing.

Since then my honourable friend has proceeded to discontinue the very programs that were designed to improve quality, and I can •t see anything in the Minister's statements to indicate that he has replaced it with substitutes that will correct this situation. I am very disappointed in his statements, outside of this House in particular, promoting better and more livestock for Manitoba, and the lack of policy that I see in his department when it gets down to actually doing the job. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1) (

a) passed. MR. CAMP BELL: Mr. Chairman -- No, I have two or three other matters that I'd like to , mention, Mr. Chairman, but before doing so I would like to comment on what the Minister said about the sire purchase policy. I think that this was a useful policy. One thing that I liked about it was that it was giving the farmer back some of his own money.

Not all of it perhaps, but some of it, for in its original state this policy, I believe, was financed by the deductimis that had been made under the horned cattle ftmd; and it seemed to me it was a good policy for that reason, that it returned some of that money to him. Later on I believe it returned more than that fund provided to him, but it had another useful purpose as well.

I think it encouraged the purebred breeder, gave him some confidence in having a market, and as for the agricultural rep finding it difficult to turn down the particular individual of some purebred breeder, after all, the agricultural reps are out there to do a job of education and I would think it would be a pretty good educational kind of a job to any breeder to get the sire that he had been trying to. sell under this program, to get turned down by the agricultural rep. However, that prcgram's gone so we can wave good-bye to it for the time being and move on to other things.

I would like to ask the Minister if he would give us a brief report on the Manitoba exhibit at the Toronto Royal. I believe that the assistance that the department gives to the Manitoba exhibitors at that Toronto Royal is contained in this item. February 28, 1964 Page 601

(Mr. Campbell, cont•d) .• 0 Then I would like to ask him about the breakdown of expenditures under the horned cattle fund. This is found on page 47 of the '62 annual report. I notice that the horned cattle trust ftmd provided for the salaries of two inspectors -- I suppose that would be $10, 000 or so in total. Then, administration costs; I wouldn •t think that would be too much. Dehorners: they've had dehorners for quite a few years. It would be only replacements I suppose -- shouldn rt be too big. Gaugers and caustic paste. Those would be comparatively small I would think.

And yet the total was $55, 375 with a good bit of it going to the university for research. Now I am quite in favour of the research program at the university, but with all respect I would suggest that it should be paid out of the appropriation that we have for it, rather than out of the horned cattle fund. There's a big vote for agricultural research and if they need more then it should be increased in my opinion. Between the two branches of research, general and specific, there's a total of more than $580, 000. 00.

Surely with that amount going to research we wouldn 1t need to take money out of the horned cattle fund, and I would like to know what portion of that money went to which of these different services. I see also that the livestock Protection Society inspector is also paid out of that fund. have no objection to that. One other matter that I want to mention at this time, Mr.

Chairman, and usually I'm asking questions rather than giving information but because of the interest that seemed to be exhibited by some honourable members last night in my statement about the fact that more than 100 percent of the hog population should be marketed every year, I just made a rough check of the figures as I could find them, and on page 45 of this report you will.see that the hog population on Manitoba farms in the June survey is given as 331, 000, and the figure that I found from the federal market review was 467, 000, so I was being �onservative as usual when I said well over 100 percent.

I didn't work out the percentage but it certainly -- more than 133 percent I believe, which at least substantiates the statement that I made in that regard, and I'd ask the lVIinister if he has the actual figures there from his department to just give them to us. MR. HUTTON: I 'm sorry, lVIr. Chairman, I don 1t have the annual statement of the horned cattle fund at hand to give the honourable member a breakdown of the expenditures in the past year. I really can't follow his argument that we shouldn rt use the proceeds of the horned cattle fund for research into the livestock industry.

The Act states specifically that the monies are to be used to promote, and to the benefit of the livestock industry. I don't know of a better way of achieving long-term benefits for the industry .than by using these monies in research. Now the government is providing a lot of money for livestock research at the university through our other appropriations, but that doesn't mean to say that there aren't other projects over and above what we provide for that shouldn't be carried out in the interests of that industry. The government has provided one of the finest animal science facilities in Canada.

As a matter of fact, just recently I was told by a young man who had come from Guelph, Ontario that Guelph didn't have a thing on us, and I think Guelph has been recognized Canada-wide as one of the leading research institutions in Canada.

I was told recently by a scientist from Michigan, I believe it was, that he was tremendously impressed with the facilities that had been provided out here for animal science, but in spite of the fact that the government has provided, in capital and in current research funds, very substantial amounts of money, I think we would be foolhardy to suggest that th13re isn't more that could be done, and I don't know of a better way of spending the cattleman's money than by using in in these research programs. Il:n sorry that I haven't got the information.

I should have known better because every year the Honourable Member for Lakeside wants to know about the horned cattle fund. I'd like to say here a little more about what we 're doing in the livestock industry j:lecause the Honourable the Lea9er of the Opposition has a very good point. This is· where we1re putting our emphasis and what are we doing about it? We have provided in these estimates, and it may not seem like a big thing, but we have provided for a nutritionist to consult with farmers and to help farmers in their feeding problems.

We're just putting a little different emphasis than what might appear to be an obvious solution to the livestock industry in Manitoba. I want to remind you that the great bulk of our producers across the Province of Manitoba have very small herds of cattle and it isn 1t feasible or practical for these people, for instance, to buy purebred sires. One of the ways that we can help to build up this industry quality-wise as well Page 602 February 28, 1964

(Mr. Hutton, cont id). ; • as quantity-wise, is to help these people to be able to enlarge their herds, and the most effective way we can do that is to help these people provide more feed. Now, ri.ght in this great Interlake are up here, and it's got a tremendous potential for livestock, and my honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposition, knows that Westlake area if anybody knows it and he knows what the potential is there, and he knows that there are hundreds of thousands of acres up here through the Interlake and in the Westlake area, that are potentially productive lands.

So far there has never been a practical method of bringing these lands into production. As a matter of fact, the rancher has been losing ground up there. He's been losing his pasture land; he •s been losing his hay land with the encroachment of this -- you might call it a weedy poplar growth -- and it •s no good to anybody. We don •t intend to go tip there and just wipe off all the bush in the Interlake but we can wipe off a great deal of it in an organized way and not hurt anything and increase our productivity.

Up until recently the only way that you could kill that bush would be either go but and chop it down with an a.'{e, which would be a pretty discouraging job, or hire a very costly caterpillar tractor with a brusher on it. It costs too much money. You couldn't get those kind of returns out of Using it for pasture and hay land. But over the years we have had chemical controls developed and there have been these new inventions like the ball and chain I mentioned, and there is another one. It's called a fleco rolling chopper.

It•s a great big drum about 4 1/2 feet in diameter and it varies -- you can buy them from about 7 feet in width to I believe 10 feet in width, This past summer the Department of Agriculture purchased one of these fleco rolling choppers because we wanted to experiment with it in our lighter poplar bluff where the ball and chain didn •t work, because when you get into light stands of poplar the ball and chain just slips over the top of it and it just stands up and there it is, So we brought this machine in and we tried it out in the Teulon area this summer. Some of the farmers were successful.

We used farmers co-operators. What we do, we go out and we say to the farmer, "If you'll put up so much money per acre we'll guarantee you that it won't cost you any more. We•ll pick up the balance. " And we charge them $4.00 or $5. 00 an acre and they're quite happy to take this on on an experiment to see what it'll do becal!se their financial responsibility is limited, And so we did. I believe it was some 150 acres up in the Teulon area, both east and west of the town. Well, the farmers had various reactions, Some of them liked it. Some of them ·weren't quite satisfied.

The departmental staff -- some of them felt that it wasn't too good and some of them felt that there was quite a satisfactory job. And then PFRA asked us if they could rent this machine and they put it in the Woodlands pasture.

Now I didn •t have an opportunity to get up thare and .sea it work bu-� they tell m,:, it di.d -- I have a raport that says it did a very excellent job -- a.11d with the frost in the ground it took less h::>rsepower to pull it and with the frost in the trees it shattered the trees and tha brush m·1.•�b. mere effectively, and so we feel at this stage that we have found another technique, a techniqu-3 that can result in having this type of land cleared ioT some;hlng in the neighborhood of $4.00 or $5.00 an acre; and what we propose to do is to go out to farmers and this is what the proposal is, specifically.

In the Inter lake and Westlake area where brush is a real problem, where it's encroaching on the pastures and on the hay land and robbing the farmer of his source of hay and feed, we •re going to go to· these farmers and we •re going to say to them, "If you will undertake to do a minimum of 50 acres and we can get your neighbours round about organized to do a minimum of 500 acres so that we can get a good deal with a contractor to supply the power, we will charge you $5.00 an acre to clear this bush. That•s all it'll cost you. If it costs more we pay the balance.

And we will give you this assistance on up to 200 acres. " What we hope to accomplish here is two things; we're going to help people as individuals, but we •re going to demonstrate that this thing can be done and that they can improve their pasture land in an economical way.

And you •11 recall that when we amended The Agricultural Credit Act last year, to provide for loans for the purchase of breeding stock, we also provided for loans for pasture improvament and water supply and fencing and we hope that with a combination of programs like this, that we can, first of all, catch the farmer's eye, get him int erested in this, and make it possible for him to undertake these kind of programs.

Now if we can make it p:>ssible for these farmers who find th emselves hedged in with these creeping forests of poplar, we can make H possible for him to increase his forage supply, we make it possible for him to February 28, 1964 Page 603

(:Nlr. Hutton, co nt 'd). . . have a larger herd, and if he has a larger herd he can affo rd to have a better sire for that herd, and so the whole thing will tend to upgrade the management practices. You've got to be able to afford good management practices, any many of good ·m anagement practices are now out of reach of these producers because they don •t have a large enough tmit to justify the expenditures that are often times called for. This kind of a program will reduce the cost to the farmer in fencing for insta nce, because if he has a quarter

section where he can now carry 10 cattle and he •s got to fence the whole thing, if he can put 20 or 30 cattle on that, after cleaning it up, he reduces the cost of fencing per head of cattle. So I believ e that these program s have a real merit, and they do make up for the programs that we have seen fit to dro p out of the livestock authorization. But once again I want to underline this, that if ·y ou can suggest to us a program that recommends itself as re ally being effective in achieving this goal that we •ve set, we 'd be only too happy to examine it and give it every con sideration.

But I want to say one thing mo re to the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition.

When you have so much mo ney to spend, and you've got to make your cho ice, and you and I agree that we want to help the livestock industry but we 've got so much mo ney and we 1ve got to make a choice, and we •ve got a set priority and you consider all these programs and you see the things that must be done if we •re going to achieve this goal, then it •s pretty auto m a tic that those things which are not going to contribute as much per dollar to the achievement of that goal as othe rs, are going to have to be set aside, and we 're going to have to adopt new policies that in the light of 1964 will accomplish the mo st in achieving the goals that we want to achieve for the livestock producer and for the Province of Manitob a.

MR. CHAIRMAN : (

c) passed MR. CAMPBE LL: ...•• getting back pretty close to being in agreement with me, Mr. Chairman, because he has -- interjection -- I think he •s going to, he has pointed out that as the pasture capacity is increased due to these program s, that then the livestock grower will be able to have a bigger herd, then he can afford and will need a better sire so then he will come back to where he needs this sire purchase policy -- interjection -- and I can see that he is comi ng around to that point of view. Mr.

Chairman, I did not intend in any way to suggest to the Honourable the Minister that the department did not have authority to spend the mo ney in the horned cattle trust fund on research at the unive rsity. Undoubtedly they have that authority, and certainly research qualifies as being one of those things that is of benefit to the livestock industry, and I would agree with him about the improvem ent in the plant out there, no question about that. And I would say further, and I 'm sure tb at he will agree with me in this, that in having Dr.

String am in charge of Livestock Research programs as well as on the teaching staff out there, that Manitoba is indeed fortunate to have a man of such outstanding capacity and character as Dr. String am. We •re mighty lucky and there •s nobody, there •s just nobody I would rather see in charge of prog rams of that kind. My whole point is that when you •ve got $580, 000 allocated for research, mo st of it at the Univers ity, for goodness sake don •t snitch this little few thousand out of the horned cattle ftmd that co uld be used for the farmer directly. That was my point in that regard.

Now I want to ask the Minister one que stion, Mr. Chairman, about this machine that's being used up in the Inter lake cou ntry to get rid of the scrubby trees. Is it believed that with one application of this machine that that land will then be ready to grow grass or legumes or forage cro ps of one kind and anothe r? Will one application do that? Before the Minister answers that let me suggest this to him, I 'm_ sure that can •t be done if the cU:' tivation is carried on after freeze up when both the land and the trees have frost in them.

I would think if you're going to get a !Jultivation effective the same time as cutting up the scrub you would pretty nearly have to to that in the.non-frozen mo nths. Page 304 February 28, 1964

MR . HUTTON: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to tell the Honourable the Member for Lakeside I think they're making fun of us here . -- (interjection) -- No , no, I think some of the others are because we're carrying on such a long dialogue. But this is a very intere sting subject. Maybe not to all ot them , but to the Honourable Member for Lakeside and I it is -- (Interjecti on) -- The ball and chain, yes. I guess the Honourable Member for Lake side and I are the ball and chain on the progre ss of this comm ittee , but this is an important thing and I think we can dwell on it a little while .

The ball and chain, either the ball and chain or this new Fleco roll ing chopper with its big blades on it that roll over this bush and chop it up, neither are a once over operation. That is" to say, we don't believe that if we go over this bush with a ball and chain or rolling chopper that this is it. But what it does, the minute you knock down that bush and let the sunlight in, the grass amazingly enough, the grass just -- a luxuriant growth takes place.

Up in this Interlake area the pea vine and everything else comes without any re seeding, and the cattle can pick their way through this material , and it doesn't take long for these poplars to rot and break down. In some cases the farmers put a fire over it at a time of year when it can't do any damage . Othe rs are leaving it and just letting it rot and break down of its own course.

The experts in the department feel that a spraying operation, a chemical spraying op eration, a brush killer oper ation, will have to be used, maybe three or fmr years later but it will be a relatively short time before that is a productive pasture . We ±eel that this thing must be done, including the spraying· operation; we must keep the cost under $10 an acre and then it becomes not only eco nomically feasible but attractive for the farmers to do this sort of thing.

And on the horned cattle fund I might say that this past year I know they did purchase some more scales to use in the performance test ing program and in this way the farmer does get some direct benefit. · MR . CAIVIPB ELL: Mr . Chairman, you may be inclined to smile at the Honourable Min ister and me carrying on our discuss ions but I agree, I agree with him that this is completely worthy of some attention, because if you are going to increase the potential of these areas that he's been speaking about you've just about got to do somet hing like this . Mr.

Chairman, I have a perso nal interest in this kind of busines s, because -- I don't often talk about my perso nal experience but I have driven the front tean1 of an 8- horse team , I've driven the front 4 horses of an 8 horse team on a 24" single furrow plough, to break up many acres , not of sc rub, but of bush, which had had to be grubbed off by the axe method to start with, and the roots taken out of the furrow slice later on, and we cut off roots that were as big armmd as this thing.

And when you just look at the progress that is being ma de in agriculture and the me thods that are available now, compared to the time then -- and later on I worked at �he job of taking the roots out of the furrow slice when a Hart-Parr 30- 60 tractor was pulling the 24" pl·:mgh, and cutting a furrow about that deep , and it's a pretty different kind of a job that we can go in with now and do this kind of work. I am interested in it and a certain amount of nostalgia here I guess , for me ; and I kind of like to see the young fellows coming along with the new ideas.

I am interested in the fact that this does not need reseeding, because I gather that that's quite a sav ing to the farmers in itself . I hope that it works out well' I would think it offers a good deal of promi se . MR . PAULLEY : Mr. Chairman, I've been quite interested in the discour se , particularly as it applies to the Interlake area. I know a little bit of that area because that is where my bride came from a few years ago, and on numerous occa sions had the opportunity of going up around Narcisse and Fis her and .. .. MR . CAMP BELL: How she wishes she had stayed there . MR .

PAUL LEY: Yes, I guess , you know, Mr. Chairman, she may have stayed there and I may never have met the young lady , if it hadn't of been for the type of country that it was , a type of cotmtry that was not productive at all . For her father went up, under the Soldiers Settle ment Plan after the First World War , and attempts were made by the soldiers and others who went up at that time, and many of the things that the Honourable the Minister is talking about today were done at that particular time .

They didn't have balls and chains, like my honourable friend is referring to , to pull down the sc rub, b�t they did this with their ox teams and other implements -- (interjection) -- Yes they did, and they cleared a considerable amount of land up there , and they attempted to go into ranching and cattle raising in the area. I don't know where the Honourable the Minister gets the idea that because of the fact of the clearing of the scrub in February 28th, 1964. Page 605

(Mr . Paulley cont'd) ...•. this area is an automatic open se same for the growth of grass , un less he is a little bit more of a ma gician today than the settlers were following the First World War , because Mr . Chairman, it just simply did not happen .

Now , I don't know whether my friend, as I say, has got more information of a magic wand, but I want to say that if we're speak ing of the same type of country, and I think we are , that if he things simply because they're goir!g to tear down the scrub brush, even though it's cleared by burning or other methods ; that the grass is automatically going to grow, either these individuals that went up there the time I'm talking about were absolute dumb ..... or the soil has undergone a transition since .

Now I'd like to have the Minister of Agri culture take another look into the sources of his informa- tion because -- well as I've said on numerous occa sions , I'm no agriculturalist but I do know .a bit of the history of the Interlake area, and I do know what my honourable friend talks about has not har:pened in the past, and I have grave doubts that it will happen today.

I've been giving some study over the past few days to the progress report on Manitoba development projects assisted by ARDA and I don't see too much to support what my honourable friend has been ·say ing here today in respect of this area an� increasing its productivity, strewn as it is with the rock-bed type of soil that's prevalent in this area, this just simply didn't happen before and I respe ctfully suggest ..•• MR . HUTTON: They broke it up. MR . PAULL EY: Yes, they broke it up, too . -- (Interje ction) -- But they didn't break it all.

They attempted -- they attempted to clear areas for pasture land and, quite frankly, from what my father-in-law used to tell me -- he's gone to his reward now, but we used to sit many an hour and talk of these things beca use he was more or less crippled, but from what he used to tell me that they had a hard job 'On the native soils there , even raising sufficient milk cows to feed the family.

I know of friends that were up in this area that attempted on numerous occa ·si ons to clear land for ranch purposes , even with seeding -- attempting to seed, in order to provide sufficient fodder -- grasslands, for their cattle . Yet my honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture has told us tonight that the mere going over apparently, with a ball and chain, and the tearing down -- the knocking down of the scrub is going to give us grass growth, and I suggest to my honourable friend that he takes another look in this regard. I' m not going to start an argument with my honourable friend.

I've no intentions of that, but I'm spe aking from know ledge that has been passed on to me of the area in around Narcisse , Chatfi eld, In wood, and areas in around that area, going up to Willowview , toward Fisher Branch and the general area in there . And from the information that�I have been given, Mr. Chairman, as I say, it doesn't jibe with the information that my honourable friend is inferring here tonight. MR . HUTTON: In reply to the Honourable the Leader of the NDP , I hope the people in the Interl ake aren't listening to him , because I wouldn't want them to be discouraged.

I'm not saying that you won't get greater productivity if you seed legumes and tame grasses , but what I'm saying is that our experience to date is that where you knock down the brush and let the sunlight in, the grass does come.

Now that doesn't mean to say that we will even recomm end that they don't seed, because if they go out and they broadcast seed into this after it's been knocked down - (interjecti on) -- Very well , and to my knowledge the boys in the Soils and Crop Branch would recommend that they do broadcast seed to get a more productive yield from these lands , but what the farmers have told me up there is that when you knock down the bush the grass does grow , and it makes pretty good sense to me , because seeds lay in the ground for years , for years and years and years , and all they require is the right conditions of so il and sunlight and temperature and so forth, and they come alive and grow .

MR . VIEL FAURE : .... my honourable .• ... Well that was on a different subject . I just wanted to get out of the bush for a little while . On the veter inary sc ience sc holarship fund, how many scholarships were awarded , and out of these , how many stayed in the province ? MR . HUTTON: Total number who have recei ved assi stance , including 1966-64 is 95 . That's from the beginning -- the introduction of the program . The number of scholarsh ip grad uates in rural practice in Manitoba is 19.

The number of scholarships remitted or repaid is 22 , and the number of students currently enrolled and on scholars hip, 12 . MR . CH AIRMAN: (

b) Dairy Branch, passed. (c) ... . MR . VIELF AU RE : Mr. Chairman, on the Dairy Branch I notice there is a decrease of about $1 3,000 in the income of the board. Would the Minister tell us what is the source of Page 606 February 28 th , 1964.

(Mr . Vi elfaure cont'd) ..... income and why the decrease ? Tha t's from page 15 of the annual report of the Milk Control Board. MR . HUTTON: I can only speak from memory here . I think they reduced the levy, if I'm not mis taken , or they discon tinue d the levy for a couple of months because they were embar rassed by some surplus funds . MR . CHAIRMAN: (

c) passed. MR . ARTHUR E W RIGHT (Seven Oaks) Mr. Chairma n , on the Milk Board Dairy Branch; I take it we are on item (b) , Mr. Chairman. I'd like to make a few observat ions as a result of looking over the annual report of the Milk Control Board for '63, and I figure there must be some place where a ci ty slicker could get in here , Mr.

Chairman, and I ma de these observa tio ns, ·t hat the dif ference in sales between 1962 and 1963 , which represe nts the quantity of fluid milk sold, is less than 1 perc ent increase , and yet I note that the increase in population for Metro Winnipeg is just a little less than 4 perc ent . It seems to me that the consumption of fluid milk-is not kf'eping up with our increase in population. Now I know that we have a subsidy that's paid on butter fat , 14 point some cents per pound on butter. I'm just wondering why we couldn't see fit to have a su bsidy paid on milk.

We talk these days, say much about physical fitne ss and I know that, with the price of milk today , which is 22 and 24 cents a quart , there must be some cases of extreme hardhsip on large fami lies , and I 'm just throwing this out for a discussion. I think that now that we're appro aching our Centennial year that I would like to see Manitoba known throughout the world as , .not only a place where you have the cheapest power , but where we also can supply the cheape st milk and I think that it is time that we took a look at subsidiz ing such a necessi ty as fluid milk, the sama as we do butter. MR.

HUT TON: Mr . Chairman, Ll'l all fairness to the fluid milk produ cer s, I think that if you compa re the prices that they receive for their prod uct here in Manitoba that the consumers in this province are better off than those in most major provinces in Canada. I believe that in most of the provinces in Canada the producers of fluid milk recei ve a higher price than they do here in Manitoba at the present ti me .

It's true that the per capita consumption of fluid milk is decli ning, and this is due to the competition from milk substitute s, milk that is used in the proces sing for instance of dry skim milk or so forth. I think the producer there receives about $3 or less per hundred pmmds of milk, and as compared to ,at the pre sent time in Manitob a, of $4.90 or $5 .00 that the fluid mi lk ship pers are getting.

I think you can understa nd that the costs of handling fluid milk, the bottling, the distribution of it, is high by comparison with the concentrate product, either in cans or in dry form , and that the fluid producers are facing seri ous competition in the market from th ese processed milk produ cts . MR . WRIGHT: I'm thinking of the consu mer . I think that people are being driven to use these substitutes because I think that they would prefer to use the natur al product, and I think that a subsidy on milk would certainly help the fluid mi lk produ cers.

It was with the consumers in mind that I was thinki ng, not of the produ cers. MR. VIELFAU RE : Mr . Chairman, on the Dairy Branch, we have now changed our grad ing system in the fluid milk. The flui d milk that is being sold in Winni peg now is, I would say, one of the purest forms of farm products that the consumer could buy . Now I am to unders tand that a dif ferent standard requirement will be asked from the crea m shipper. Could the Minister tell us when this new standard will be asked from the shipper ? Or when will the shipper have to meet this new standard?. MR .

SCHREYER: I would like to ask the Minister if his department under the Dairy Bra nch or any bra nch conerns itself with taking counts of Strontium 90 in the spot checks on milk supply from time to ti me , and if it does -- if the answer is affirmative -- could he give us a comparison of the last available data with one year earli er . JYIR. HUTTON: In reply to the Honourable Member for La Veren drye , I haven't got the answer rig ht at hand, as to how soon.

I expect that the producers will be given -- that we won't be as strict in reinforcing this rig ht off the bat as we will be once it's been in effect for some ti me, to give them an opportunity to bring their operation up to a standard where it complies with the new regulations ; but I think that once this time has been given to them that then we must see to it that their opera tions do comply . The testing for Strontium 90 falls under the aegis of the federal -- I believe it's the Food and Drug people that do this , beca use they carry out other tests to determ ine the purity of the February 28 th, 1964.

Page 507

(Mr. Hutton cont'd) ..... . food, You will recall that it was the Food and Drug people who first through their tests , ran across this dieldrin and aldrin in the dairy produ cts . We got into the act to make sure that we got an answer in a hurry. We put per sonnel in and co- ope rated with them . But normally it 's the Food and Drug people who do this work, and I don't have the ir figure s on Strontium 90. MR . PETERS: Mr . Cha irm an , would the Minister know -- beca use of the issue that was raised of Strontium 90 that was in the fluid milk, is that why people have gone to milk substi tute s? MR .

HUTTON: No , beca use , to my knowledge , the technique or process that can be used to substract the Strontium 90 factor from milk is not a part of the processi ng procedure used by the milk processi ng compani es . I would say that it has no bearing on it. The Honour able Member from Seven Oaks hit the nail rig ht on the head when he said it was the price fac tor .

These products are much cheap er, and they are a good product , and people who have a la rge family of children just find that they can afford to buy these substitutes and they can't afford to buy fluid milk; and I think his suggestion of a consumer subsid y on milk , much like we have on but ter , is an excelle nt suggestion. MR . FRO ESE : Mr . Chairman , under Item (b) (3) , Grant -- Crea m Grading Servi ces , th ere's a $25 ,0 00 grant . I would like to lmow from the Minister how many inspectors do we have , and how's the ba la nce of the cost of these services pro-rated?

What charge do we levy against the creameries or the concerns where we do the inspection? !VIR. HUT TON: All monies are raised by a levy on the creameri es , and I just can't put my finger on the levy right now. It just evades me . It has been in the neighborhood of 7 cents per 100 pounds of butterfat. That' s what the levy was - - 7 cents per 100 pounds of butte r fat. Tha t's the '62 figure that I have here, and it ma y have changed a little . You wanted to know the number of inspect ors . I don't have that just at hand. Maybe my runner will bring me the informati on .

I'll send it over to the honourable member . MR . FROESE : I have some furthe r questions in that respect. These inspe ctors -- what courses do they undergo or ta ke , and what qualifications do they have in order to become an inspector , and how ac curate are they and ·their grading ? MR . HUTTON: Mr . Chair man, these inspectors are 1.mder the supervision of the Dairy Bra nch, and I don't know what their specific qualifications are , except that they know their job , which is to make sure that the grading of the cream is accur ate .

I would have to beg ig norance on their individual qualifications in terms of training, etc . I think. that this is a skill that is acq uired by associa tion with the industry and an experience in the industry. MR . FRO ESE: I think this is of importanc e. After all , the dairyma n's income is de pendent on this , of the grading that the inspector does, and we hear complaints from time to tin 1e, and espec ially when I was conne cted with a concern , a creamery, that we did get many co�1plaints at that ti me. I know: that.

So I wanted to know what tl1e qualifications are, and just how -- (inte rject ion ) -- that's for sure . " MR . HUTTON: There are five inspe ctors and they are under the supervision of Mr . Mc Rae , and it is Mr. lVI c R8.e' s responsibil ity to see that these inspectors know what they are doing. MR . PETERS: Mr . Cha irman , these five inspectors -- they're not changed from time to time ? They've been there for a long ti me, have they ? MR . HUTTON: To my lmowledge , ye s. They have been there for quite a time . MR . F ROESE : How much time do the inspectors spend at a given concern in a year ?

I take it they only make spot checks from time to time . Is that rig ht ? MR . HUTTON: That depends upon what they find when they take a spot check of the creamery. If they take a spot check and they find that the cream is being graded correctly, then they won't spend much time there . If they go out and they find that there are significa nt variations in the grades that are being given , then they'll stay a little longer to make sure that the crea m is being graded accurately. lVIR. FRO ESE: A further question then .

Since the se inspectors are only making spot chec ks , that means that the local concerns have to have their own graders . Now, what quali fic ations clo thes graders have , and are they l.UJ.der the supervision of the department ? MR . HUTTON: Mr . Chairman, I think that question has alre ady been answer ed. This Page 608 February 28t h, 1964.

(Mr . Hutton cont'd) ...... is why we have inspectors to go out and check the people te sting and grading in the creameri es . The routine program of the inspectors in the past year included 1,3 81 regular inspections to creamerie s, checking on cream grading, cream testing and milk testing at milk plants _outside Winnipeg. The number of tests was as follows: Farmers' butter fat tests , 26 , 522; cans of cream checked for grade, 53 , 948 ; butter salt tests , 489; butter moist ure tests , 51 4; butter yeast and mould analysis , 3,8 30. I think these half-dozen gentle men were pretty busy . MR .

FRO ESE: Are the local cream graders licensed? l'IIR . HUTTON: Yes. MR . CAMPB ELL: Mr . Chairm an, I have another question under the Dairy Branch. It runs in my mind that there recently was an advertisement in some of the papers mentioning a hearing by the Milk Control Board. Has a hearing been held, and was it an application for an increase in price , and if so, was it just at the producer level or the distributor level, or both? Has one been held, or is one contemplated? :MR. HUTTON: Mr .

Chairman, I have not received any information from the Chairman of the Milk Control Board with respect to the application that has been made so I cannot pro vide that information. These five inspectors I referred to are either graduates or well-trained dairy te chni ci ans, and the levy for cream grading -- the current levy for cream grading is 7 cents per 100 pOUL<ds of butterfat. MR . MOLG AT: Mr . Chairman, over many years , this House had res olutions presented annually, and long discuss ions annually about the color ing of ma rgarine in the Province of Manitoba. Well , I was only going to inquire Mr.

Chairman, from the Minister, if he could tell us how things are going since he introduced the change some two years ago , and what has been the result of the change insofar as the production and consumption of butter in the Province of Manitoba. And similarly , on mar garine. Can he give us the figures to show what has happened in the two products ? MR . HUTTON: Mr . Chairman, I haven't got the up-to-date figures, I think, on this . gave a report, I believe , to the Legisla ture last year.

The trend has been for increased con sumption of butter in the Province of Manitoba, that is per capita consumption, and a sli ght decrease in margarine. Of course , one must not forget that a consumer subsidy was introduced on butter a few months after we provided for the coloring of marg arine in Manitoba. However, there's no doubt in my mind, Mr . Chairman, that the continuing controversy in this Legisla ture over the years did much to promote the sale of margarine and did nothing for the dairy industry .

As a matter of fact , I think that controversy created a buyer resistance amongst the consumers of butter, and I think that be aring that is sue was one of the finest things that this Legislature has ever done. But I do believe that one must give full credit to the consumer subs idy on butter for the increased consumption . As a matter of fact, you may have read the same report that I did coming out of the recent Manitoba Dairy Industry Associ ation convention, which indicated that there was going to be a shortage of butter in Canada.

There are signs of it developing now -- this doesn't mean that there isn't butter in stor age; but the butter that's in stor age has be-en there for a long time . I don't believe that there is any butter in storage in Canada that isn't over a year old, so there are no fresh stocks of butter of any consequence available in storage , and the talk now is are we going to be able to produce enough to meet our current needs . MR . MOLG AT: Mr .

Chairman , I would like to have from the Minister though some actual figures, because this was the crux of the controversy that went on in this House over so many years , that the coloring of marg2.rine would affect the production, and therefore the income of the dairy people in the Province of Manitoba. Now , in view of the fact that this has gone on over such a long period and was such a controvers ial issue , I'm sure the Minister and his department must have , or at least should have , followed very carefully the results of the color ing.

I would like to have from the Minister -- I realize that he says that the subsidy came in, but nevertheles s if he would give us the figures , Mr . Chairman , over the past few years , say a period of ten years , of the production and sale of the two products in the province , and he can indicate as well the prices at the various stages so that we will see and have a proper consid eration of the subsidy aspect when it came in. Now , surely he has those figures , and I would February 28t h, 1964. Page S09

(Mr. Molgat, cont1d) .. .. .. like to have him give them to the House . MR. HUTTON: Mr. Chairman, I know I have some very significant figures. I had them last year, and I will endeavour to get them out and bring them to the Ho:1se . I possibly can do ·this on another day, the next time we meet. It may be interes ting to the members of the· Legislature to know that the prospects for the -- we are a net importer to a very ma rked ex tent, of cheese products in Manitoba.

There is a real opportunity for the production of cheese here in Manitoba, and what is gratifying at this time is that there has been some response to this ma rket here in Manitoba. There was quite a subs tantial increase -- I shouldn't say subs tantial -- but a significant increase in the production of cheese in Manitoba this past year , and we hope that this trend will continue. I will get that informat ion for the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . MOLGA T: We'll look forward to getting the figures, Mr.

Chairman, because I think this is very important to this whole question that vexed the province for so many years . I wonder if the Minister would indicate to the HoJ.se what steps his department takes to control the coloring, because as the Act was passed, there are some sp3cific ranges of coloring es tablished for ma rgarine and for butter. How is this controlled, and what steps are taken by the department to ensure that the Act is followed? MR. HUTTON: In the administration of The Ma!'la.rine Act this past year, 191 samples of yellow and white ma rgarine were analyzed for color and comp osition.

Compliance with the regula tions was good. No prosecu tions were necessa ry, although 8, 180 pounds of one brand of margarine which did not meet the specifications were seized and sold for sal vage . Two lots of 6, 984 pounds and 780 pounds were returned to the manufac tL lrer for reprocessi ng; so this indicates that the industry is very co-operative and law abiding and is success ful in com plying with the law. MR. MOLGA T: ........... There's one other aspect of the Act and the control of these products which I think is very important.

This was practised in other provinces at a time when the ma rgarine was completely banned. That was the mixing of margarine and butter, and then the product being sold as butter. What control does the department have over this, what checks do they make to ensure that the consumers of the province, if they are buying butter are in fact getting butter, and if they are buying ma rgarine are in fact getting marga rine and not a mL"l:ed product so as to reduce the cost of the item without le tting the consumer know exac tly what he's buying? MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, if me.mbers are really interested, they can check page 40 of the report and they'll see that butter consum ption has gone up three quarters of a pound per capita, ma rgarine gone down two-thirds of a pound per capita in the last year reported.

I want to ask the Minister if -- and I'm not su re whether it's contravening the statute we passed here two years ago -- but apparently in the last five or six months , ma rgarine producers have been, up until then at least, ma rgarine prints were put in cardboard boxes, half-pound prints, quarter prints and so on, but now they are wrapping them in precisely the same kind of paper wrapper as butter is_ marketed in. I'm not sure if that contra v·enes the statute , but see ms like something that the Minister could have his staff check on. MR. CAMP BELL: Mr.

Chairman, I notice by the Annual Report that 65 percent of the marga rine that was sold was ::!olored. If my ma thematics are correct, then that would appear to indicate that 35 percent was unc oloured. Now, if when coloured margarine is available , when it's been made availa ble , if 35 percent of the people still buy uncoloured ma rgarine, wouldn't that indicate that after all the public wasn't too concerned about it being coloured -- that if 35 percent still buy it even after available in the coloured form, S:Irely it was only a tempest in the teapot about getting it coloured, wasn't it? MR. HUTTON: Mr.

Chairman, I think you would find that a very large proportion of that 35 percent of uncoloured margarine is used by the hous ewife in baking, because as the cooks have told me, they don't like that colouring in marga rine when they are using it for baking. MR. CAMP BELL: Wasn't that all it was ever used for anyway? MR. CHAIRMAN: (

b) passed. MR. MOLGA T: Mr. Chairman, I didn't get an answer to my q:.restion about the mixing of the products. I think this is important from a consumer's standpoint to ensure that the consumer is getting in fact what he's purchasing, and I would like to know from the department what control Page 610 Febr11ary 28th, 1964.

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd) ... they exercise over this practice. MH. HUTTON: Well, I think, Mr. Chairman, the answer to that is that the quality of the butter itself is checked in the creamery, so that -- you see , butter salt tests were run , butter moisture tests were run, butter yeast and mold analysis were run.

Some 489 butter salt tests; butter moisture tests, 514; butter yeast and mold analysis , 3, 830, and I think that -- I ma y be mis tak•en in this, but I would sugge st that the inspectors in running these tests would catch any doctoring of the butter product, be watching for that sort of thing while they were doing these tes�. · MR MOLGA T: But Mr. Chairman, aren't these tests conducted at the creamery, not tests conducted at the retail level where the consumer ac tually purchases this?

Now, if the butter goes through a number of hands , then obviously the control must be at the retail level and that is where the sa:mples must be taken. Is this done? MH. HUTTON: I won't answer that categorically, I would want to check on it, but I wouldn't like to sugg est that the product that Manitoba consumers are getting is not a bonafide produc t. Manitoba enjoys the finest reputation in Canada for quality butter. There is no province in Canada that enjoys our reputation. MH. CHAIRMAN: ---(b)---passed. (c) -- Extension Service Branch passed. MH.

GUTTORMSON: The last ses sion of the Legislature discussed the subject of .<\RDA during these estimates. At that time I asked the Minister to give us in grass roots language what this program really meant to fihe people, because it had been indicated earlier that the Interlake would be a pilot area for this program , and at that time -- I don't want to put words in the Minister's mouth -- he indicated that it was too early really to sa y ..... just what this program meant to the farmer and that he said himself he found it difficult to tell us just what it would mea n to the people of the Interlake.

He did say, though, that one thing he could tell us was that there wo•Jld be two eommu nity pastures I believe es tablished in the area but, further to that, there would have to be surveys taken and what-not to determine just what was needed and what this program could do for the area. The Minister -- is he in a better position now to tell us what this program is going to do for the Interlake and in grass roots language so that I can tell the people when they approach me about it? Also have the comm unity pastures that he mentioned last year been est ablished? MH. HUTTON: Mr .

Chairman, I expect that when we're through estimates the Honourable Member for St. George will have a better idea of the practical application of AR DA . I'd rather not start on that subject right now except to sa y to him that this program that I described for brush clearing, in the Interlake and Wes tlake area, is an AR DA project. MR. GUTTORMSON: Back to the commu nity pastures that he spoke about last year. Have they been es tablished now? MH. HUTTON: They're wo:-king on them, ye s. MH. GUTTORMSON: They're not in -- will they be in operation this summer? MH.

HUTTON: If the honourable member would wait until we got to the Soils and Crops Branch I'd have that information. I've got my information organized here and it's kind of difficult to talk on it. MH. GUTTORMSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, that's quite all right with me . If he wou�d prefer to discuss it at that particular part of the estimat es, I'm prepared to do that but I just noticed, though, in the estimates we refer to ARDA -- on the Canada-Manitoba AHDA agree ment on No. 7 and I thought perhaps he'd want to discuss it at this point.

That's why I raised it - (Interjection) -- Well he sa id (c) -- (c) 7 and he 's been passing items by (a) , (

b) and (c). MH. HUTTON: I'd prefer to do it on the Soils and Crops Branch. MR. GUTTOR MSON: ..... I have no objection to the Minister proceeding in that manner. MR. MOLGA T: That's fine as far as I'm co.:10erned too, Mr. Chairman. I think it might be better if we do it under one item rather than under a series of them as long as we understand it'll be -- Yes, there's another item. Item 16, which is the capital one. As long as we know which one the Minister -- I think we'll have to .... MR.

HUTTON: It would be probably more meaningful if I discussed the water control and conservation aspects of AR DA under the Water Control and Conservation Estim ates. I can deal at some length with it under Soils and Crops Branch, which is involved, and I will deal with this particular item here in this sec tion because it's related to this type of work. February 28th, 1964. Page 61 1

MR. MOLGAT: That suits me Mr. Chairman. Well, under Extension Service then I think would be the point to discuss the plum bing courses of my ho:10urable friend, the Minister of Ag riculture , because Mr. Chairman, some two or three years ago now my honourable friend put in the Throne Speech a high-s ounding phrase that he was going to put water and sewer into every farm home in Manitoba. This surely was the intent of the

section in the Speech from the Throne becaus e, unless it had been mea nt to be at least that size of a prog ram , I don't think it would qua lify for inclusi on within the Throne Speech which is normally considered to be the major development plans of the government. Well it turned out subse quently that really what he was going to do was to conduct a cou ple of courses to tell farmerl:l how to link together some hose pipe and how to proceed to solder some joints and maybe a little bit of plu mbing course s. Now this is a far far cry, ·M r.

Chairman, from the original expectations that the House was legitimately entitled to have from my honourable friend's state ment and I wonder if he would now tell us exactly what have been the results of his program; whether it was continued in the past year and whether he intends to continue it in the future , or what exactly it has achieved. MR. HUTTON: You know I'm laughing because some of these members in the Opposition, Mr. Chairman, plumb q·1ite deep at times. They plumb q•1ite deep at times. We are continuing the program .

We have a mobile classroom all equipped with the necessa ry accoutrements for teaching, demonstration and so forth, for giving classes in the use of the equip ment that is used in making these installations .

I suppose in terms of the program that my honourable friends in the NDP were promoting out in Saskatchewan, that Manitoba's program appeared to be rather sm all and insignificant but you know I think that one has to give a lot of credit, and this is what we b·elieved when we started this program, the ingenuity and the willingness of the farmers of Manitoba to help themsel ves if they were given a little chance to do so.

At the time that we introduced this program we had an estimate, and we thought it was pretty acc urate , that only 7 percent -- there was less than 10 percent of the homes in Manitoba had running water -- had been modernized. Now, that isn't very long ago . Last year , we had eight of these schools throughout Manitoba. There were 122 farmers took

part in them, and now our est imate -- and you may take issue with it -- but it's the only one that I've got to give you -- our estima te is that 33 percent of the farm homes in Manitoba now have running water system. Now, I always ma intained, right from the start, that if we went out -- and I' m sure that a lot of the rural me mbers here know arural com mu nity and how it works. If one person in the commu nity modern izes. their home , it isn't long 'til Mrs. Jones says to Mr.

Jones, "Now, look what the Sm iths have done, and he did it himself, and I'm sure that if you attended one of these courses you could do it, and maybe Jones would help you." And what I believe has happened, ar.d I think that there is evidence that this has taken place, is that this course is stimulat ing. Now, they didn't all go out and put in their own systems , not by any means, but they got interested in it and they did something about it, and they are installing water and sewage in their homes.

I don't know what the total modernization has been, but there are 33 percent of our farmera now who have water systems in their homes. And the program has worked, and ma ny of the commu ni ties, Carman for instance , asked for subseq uent schools to be held. If I'm not mistaken, I believe we've held three in that one commu nity, and I am sure that for every one that attended those course s, that there were others that were stimulated to do something about it.

And I don't think that it's necessary for the government to set up a warehouse and go into the plum bing business here in Manitoba and to run opposition to all the plumbers in the provi11ce. There was some concern expressed by many of the local plumbers throughout the province when we announced our program, and there was some resentment that here we were out there with a school helping these farmers to install their own systems and they were trying to mak� a living in the commu nity. But do you know what's .happened.

They found, that through the department stimul ating the farmer to do something about this , that their business has grown. They're better off today than they ever were . But they're not saying quite the same thing out in Saskatchewan. But, we d•) more than just teach these farmers how to solder a joint or lay out a sewage system or a water system.

We actually go into the homes 0f these people and help them design the water and sewage syste m in the homes; and we provide supervision of the work that is done, and I think it has been fairly effective in encouraging our farm people to modernize their homes and to provide themsel ves with a water and sewage system. Page 612 February 28th, 1964.

MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chair man, it's most interes ting to hear my friend, the Minis ter of Agriculture extol the virtues of what he has done , and others , in respect to this ... I wonder though, Mr. Chair man, whether the Honourable the Minister has taken the time OJt to rea d the report of his department. I refer him , if he hasn't, to page 27 of the report. Just before he sat down, he me ntioned the fact of what the depar tment has done in respect of water and sewer installati on.

If he will take close look at page 27, he will find that in accor dance with a survey ma de by Mac1itoba Hydro of 30, 000 farms equipped with elect riCity, that 32. 9 percent of the farms have water systems. No figure is available for sewer systems for the year 1962. But however, if we go back' to the year 1960 as contained in the report, we find that 8. 6 percent of the farms only were equipped insofar as sanitary sew ers were concerned. Now I think this is vastly different, Mr. Chai.r man, than what the Minister atte mpt ed to inform the House here a moment ago because as I sai d just before he sat down I. ..

MR. HUTTON: On a point of privile ge. The Minister didn't try to inform. I said I didn 't have any figures on sewage . I was talking about wate r. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chai rma n, I don't know. Maybe I'm not being able to hear as good what the Minister sa ys , or ma ybe my honourable friend isn't quite aware of what he sa id because, Mr. Chai rman, just before he sat down he referred again to approxim ately a third of the far ms equipped with sewer and wat er.

And I ask my honourable friend to read the report of Hansard on Monday when it is laid before us and I'll humbly apologize to my honourable friend if this is the connotat ion of his last rema rks made in order to subs tantiate what he feels and thinks is his cause in this particular field in Manit oba. I can say no more , except to ask my friend to do that. He ma de reference to Saskatchewan and it's not my purpose to defend what they do in Saskatchewan but I think rather than my honourable friend be littling what they do in this regard he at least should give credit where credit is due.

My honourable friend sort of cast aspersi ons on those that took the course because of the fact that he says the plumbers were raising grave object ions . I doubt this very much, Mr . Chair man. I doubt very much and I would ask my honourable friend, the Minis ter of Agriculture to subs tantiate in any ma terial degree that there were compla ints from the plumbers in the Province of Manitoba at courses that were offered to the farmers of Manitoba in respect to plum bing instaJlatio ns .

And I challenge him to do so , because I'm firml y convinced that by and large the plumbers of Manitoba do not desire , insofar as the average farm is concerned in the hinterlands and the sparsel y sett led areas of the Province of Manit oba, to deprive the farmer of installing plumbi ng on the local farms.

In the citi es, yes, and in the towns and villages I would sa y -- I would sa y that there is a jus tific ation for what my friend the Minister of Agriculture , but insofar as the average farm is concerned I would say no .' And I would sa y that I'll guarantee that the far mer of Saskatchewan was well pleased that the government of Saskatchewan ma de arrange ments for mass purchase of materials in order that they ma y be purchased mo re economi call y for the farmer of Saskatchewan.

And I would say to my honourabl e friend that if the far mer of Manitoba were se rved equa lly as well in this area as the fa rmer in Saskatchewan they too would have been more sat isfied with the program here in Manit oba. My honourable friend referring back to the courses that were held -- the report indic ates on page 13 of your report that in the year 196 2, that the short courses for farm wate r supply and sanitation -- there were so ma ny courses attended by ll2 indivi dua ls . I don't think this was of any great consequence . Of all the farmers .

What did we hear the other day that there were about 42 ,000 some odd. Of 42, 000 engaged in the agric ultural industry, 112 attend the courses of my h::mourable friend, and he brags about it. I'm sick and tired of lis tening to the poppycock and guff that comes from across the way about the ma gnific ent and tremendous job that we 're doing in the various departments . It just doesn't stand up in fac t. And I think that we had a clear indic ation of it tonight Mr. Chair man, even in dealing with the question of sewer and wate r to the farms in the Provi nce of Manitob a.

So I suggest to my h·onourable friend once again that before he comes out wi th statements such as he did a few mo ments ago, that he at least ta ke the time to read the report of his own d3partment -- (Interjec tion) -- I haven't got the exac t figure of Saskatchewan but in the budget speech that was delivered by the Honourable J. H. Brockelbank just the other day, last Friday the 21st, some raference is made to it and I will quote , on page 15 . "W hile I have been dealing February 28th, 1964. Page 61 3

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) ... largely with the economic aspects of the agricultural sector, I would not want to admit me ntion of those programs which are designed primar ily to enhance rural life . I refer to the fam ily farm improvement program which has alre ady brought modern plumbi ng to approximate ly ll, 400 farm homes . The mu nicipal sewer and water progra m; under which almost $3 mi llion in assis tance will have been given to over 160 towns and villages by the end of March" in reference to that.

Now then, in the est ima tes -- in the ordinary estimates in the Province of Saskatchewan for the year hence there is , under grants for famil y farm im p:;>ovements , and I presume that this is the ite m of sewer and wat er, in the Province of Saskat chewan

whereas it was $240, 000 last year, this year it has been increased to $324, 000 as a direct contribution. A MEMBER: That's exclus ive of capital. MR. PA ULLEY: Exclusive of capital. As a direct contribution to the enhanc eme nt of rural life as Mr. Brockelba nk men tions in his budget address, to rural Saskatchewan. As a ma tter of fac t, Mr.

Chair man, I think that what they're doing in Saskatchewan -- now it isn't very often that I give credit to my honourable friends on the right, but I think that what they are now doing in the Province of Saskatchewan in respect to sewer and wate r is carrying through a si milar program that was developed by my honourable friend the present Member for Lak9side in respect of rural elec trific ation in Manit oba.

At that ti me , in order to bring elect ricity to the farms of Mani toba, the government of the day, with all of the failings that they had -- and by ji mmi ny Chris tmas they had many of them -- but notwithstanding the failings that they did have , this was one area that they did help out, but this is not being done by the government of Mani toba today in respect of the development and enhancem ent of rural life in Manitoba in respect of sewer and wate r. So I say to my honourable friend once again, don't try to sell us a bill of goods like you did here a few mo ments ago. It's guff and we will not swallow it.

MR. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emer son) : Mr. Chair man,. I don't think I'll be quite as critical of the Honourable Minister as the former spea ker was here, but I know I got involved with him once on this ite m and he invited me to go hand and hand with him and put slot mac hine s on every private toilet and I'll not forget that, out in the rural areas .

I know he didn't mean it rea lly - (Interject ion) -- He didn't reall y mea n it, but he did say that at one time; and I'l l agree that he ma y take some consolat ion for the fact that it couldn't have been a total failure , and I'll agree with him that in some ins tanc es it did enc ourage , as he did mention. The odd farmer would go ·a nd take a course and then if he attached up his water supply system it may enco urage the other farmers . He ma y be right in that too, so we should give him -- (Interject ion) -- Well, it's quite true in the area.

Wh:m they see that one fam ily has done it they're liable to do that -- they ma y do that on their own. But surely, I don't think that the Minister means or in tends to take full credit for the sharp inc rease in water installations . I notice here in 1960 it was 16 . 4; two years later it's double , 32. 9. I'm sure that he doesn't intend to take full credit for that. He ma y have helped to some degree .

I had high hopes when I read that in the Throne Speech referred to at the ti me, and I reall y believed that he was in earne st, that it would be a project sim ilar to the project of rural elect rif icatio n of Manitob a. But I was very, very sadly disappointe d. But what I got up for was this .

In the area, a sm all area about 12 by 12 miles in my con stitrrency, in the Red Riv·a r Valley, I took the trouble to check and we 've got 62 wate r pressu re syste ms in that area, and most of them -- not only that they have the water supply but they have the sewerage system also, and Pm sure that in this area there wasn't one of those farmers who did go and take that course .

Therefore, when he men tions the ingenuity of the farmer, I think that the greatest credit for the sharp increase goes to the far mer, the ingenuity of the farmer, because the farmer has .got quite a bit of ingenuity and if you let him alone he'll do that.

In our area not ma ny ....... , none of them in fact that I know of have taken that course and there is quite a bit of this plumbi ng that has been installed by themselv es, .and also you've got quite an industry there -- poultry industry, and if you check some of the farms through there, all of the farms have wate r pressu re , autom atic water pressure ; and if you come and ask those farmers who was the plumber who did it for you, did you take a course ? No , I didn't. Wh:> did it for you?

We did it ourselv es, with the help of the plas tic pipe which is a very very simple thing to set up, so I hope that the Minis ter doesn't take full credit for- that sharp increase. And I don't -- I'll Page 61 4 February 28, 1964 I

I (Mr. Tanchak, cont'd) ... agree that it may have helped in some instan ces but I don't think that me ntioning it in the Throne Speech in the way it was me ntione d at that time aJ.d building up hopes, I think that the Minis ter deserves a little bit of criti cism no.v. MH. HUTTON: I'll take my critic ism for this , but I can't let the Leader of the NDP away with some of the state me nts that he mak es. He talks about what the Province of Saskatchewan has done in provi ding water supplies for their tow ns. Manitoba doesn't have to take a back seat to anybody on this .

We introduced the water supply board program and I hav en't got the figures right at my finger tips because it comes under anothe r sec tion in the est imat es, but we've spemt mi llions , mil lions , we've put up mi llions , to bring wate r to towns in Manitoba that couldn't have hoped, beyond their wilde st drea ms, to ever have a water and sewage syste m servicing their commu nity. So if he wants to throw that into the mill and pretend that this is somet hing that Saskatchewan had thought of and is doing that Manitoba isn't doing, he's barking up the wrong tree .

We have spent mil lions in the Province of Manitoba bringing wate r supplies to towns to enable them to give modern convenie nces to their resi dents . Now on the question of this $200, 000 or $30 0, 000 -- take any figure you like -- the Saskat chewan government is giving to people to install water and sewer systems. In order to get this money, as I understand it, you have to buy all your supplies through the government agency and then you get a grant and it's limited to $250 or $300 per installation. Now, you know, people believe you and I.

Peo;Jle be lieve you and I, even though we're politi cians , and when a govern ment goes into a program and promotes it and says , "You're going to get it for $250 less than you would from private enterprise ," the people believe us . Go:i bless them and God help them. But I've exami ned the cost s under the Saskatchewan system and I've examined the costs of them in est imates that have been brought to me by the engine ers in my department, and I just can't see that this big help that the Saskltchewan farmer is getting is as much 'iS it's cooked up to be by the NDP.

I'm not arguing here that the program that we have would dot the i's or cross the t's in that program they've got out there in Saskatchewan . It's a big government operation, but this do esn't guarantee to the people that they are necessa rily getting a better deal than they can get in Manit oba through the free enterprise system.

To the best of my knowledge, you can put in a water and sewage system in Manitoba through the local plumber as cheaply if you shop around, just as cheaply, as you can under that program in Saskatchew an , but of course the local plumber hasn't got all the prestige and the persuasi on behind him that a governm ent like they have in Saskatchewan would have . Now there's anothe r factor. The reason that people don't put in plumbi ng is , they can't afford it, a lot of them. It's just that plain. It's just that simple.

Now I want to tell you that on my farm home we installed plumbi ng in our home in the wi nter of '57 - 58. We;d had the· power there for 8 or 9 years and one of the reasons we didn't ins tall it was that we were un decided as to whether we would put it in that old home or whether we' d build a new home, or whether we should spend that kind of money on an old home. We eventuall y spent the mon ey on the old home , b<'lcause I can never get enough dollars ahead to afford a new one . This is the reason that people don't put in plumbi ng. It's a que stion of simple econ omi cs.

Many of them ar8 just like the Huttons were . They're hoping that somet hing is just around the corner that'll enable them to build a new home . They are won:iering whether they should spend that kind of mo ney on the old home and some of them, even if they haven't got the hope of a new home , can't afford $1, 500. 00 They need a new tractor, or they need somet hing else worse.

And my exper ience ha.s been all my life on the farm, whenever it came to a question of whether you were going to put your money on your back or in the house, or into your livi ng, or whether you were going to put it into the busi ness, if the business needed it, it got top priority. And this is the reason why people on the farm hav·en't gone into mode rnization of their homes to the extent that you and I think is so wonderful. Now, I' m not prepared, frankly, to go out and tell a man who is hard up or who hasn't got the $1, 500 -- to go out and tell him: "You should put in plumbin g.

" Maybe in terms of his bank account and his - financ ial obligations he shouldn't put it in. And I don't thi.nk that, as the head of the Department of Agriculture in Manit oba, that I have any busi ness to tell a man to spend his mon ey in this way. And if this government were to provide an easy form of credit for him -- and I'd like to know what that is , because you've got to pay it back -- ma ybe he should be borrowing mo ney to put into his business rather than to be borrowing mon ey to improve his standard of living right at that point. It's a question of economi cs , and I FebruaJ:y 28, 1964 Page 61 5

(Mr. Hutton , cont 'd). . . don •t know whether there is such a great merit in encour aging people through a governm ent program to spend mo ney to mo dernize their homes when maybe they need to spend that money in other ways. And I think you have to leave it up to the good judgment of the individual farmer as to whether he is prepared to take that step and to make that investment. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairm an, the Honourable Minister has got himself cornered, and when he gets cornered, he gets sillier and sillier every minute.

Undoubtedly what I have just heard now is the silliest statement that I• ve heard from a Minister of the Cro wn since I have been sitting here because, in the first place, when this government announc ed their sewer and water program you can •t tell me that they didn •t want to have it represented as a full-fledged sewer and water program.

The two newspapers in this city had it in bold print right on the front pages of their newspaper, and if the Minister had been honest with the reporters and told them that this was just a matter of a few thousand dollars under the EXtension Branch, do you serio usly believe that th e newspapers would have put in on Page 1, as a headline ?

The fact of the matter is that this govE'rnment intended from the outset to have this put across to the public under false pretences, because it so happened that .about 10 days to a mo nth after the program was annou nced in Saskatchewan they felt themselves obliged here to follow suit. But what a difference in the program , Mr. Chairm an: The fact of the matter is that peoplE believed here in Manitoba that when it was annot mced that it would be in the nature of a full-scale program involving grants for the installation of facilities and so on.

I attended a Ukrainian wedding in my consti tuency -- and those weddings are big and they last long -- and there was a lot of people there, and about 20 or 25 of them came up to me and began to ask me, how much would the grants be? Would they be about three, four hundred dolla rs, and so on. These weddings last long, Mr. Chairman, and as I say, I only remember 20 people coming up to me, but for all I know there could have been 40 or 50.

The fact of the matter is that people were duped, and they were duped by this Minister sitting opposite us. · No w there is simply no comparison between the program that we have here because this sewer and water program in Manitoba is really nothing mo re than a plumberama that offe rs some kind of short cour se instruction to about 100 people a year. In Saskatchewan -- the Minister can deride the program there all he likes -- the fact of the matter is that there has been an expenditure of over $3, 500, 000 since the inception of that program .

Is it or isn •t it a good thing for the people in rural Manitoba to have the best in sanitary facilities and so on ? And if you say it is, then the seco nd assumption you have to make ·is that if they cannot afford it, as the Minister implies, then what can be done to aid and encour age the installation of such facilities ? The Min

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-2-24
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 2nd hansardpdf 24.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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Identifier	dda1f19afa70eaf7edfe29535c1054407d532db4

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