Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st Session VERBATIM REPORT Wednesday, June 28, 1972 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 41 .....

June 28, 1972 The House met at 3:00 P.M. 'lr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape No. 1049 NC - 1 PRESENTING PETITIONS: '1R. DUNPHY: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Seal Cove, Stephenville Crossing. The prayer of the petition is that they have no water or sewerage facilities in their district.

Seal Cove, I might point out,is part of Stephenville Crossing I suppose ever since the incorporation of the Town of Stephenville Crossing 1they have had no water or sewerage ;md have had to carry their water from the centre of the town where they do have water hut as yet no water seems to he coming their way. I think this should rate high on the list of priorities within the Department of Municipal Affairs. I think in this day and age where people live within a community,with parts of it with water and they themselves without, seems to !Tle somewhere along the line they are being discriminated against.

J do not think this is fair. Now to make this connection is not a very, very big joh. Ac.tua]ly they are only eight-tenths of a mile from the source of water The plea in this petition is that the Department of :-iunicipal Affairs make money availahle to council to extend this water line into Seal Cove. Presently and for some time some people have had to drink 1,:•ater from brooks and ditches in the area. Now I think every member in this hon.

House realizes this has gone a little too far in this day and age, So I ask that this petition for water ancl sewerage for the area of Seal Cove be placed upon the table and referred to the department to wh:1.ch it relates. ~~R...:... .:"~~11Y: "'!r, Speaker, I am very happy to support the petition presented by the member for St. Geor~es on behalf of the residents of Seal Cove, Stephenville Crossing. If conditions are ;is the hon. member describes, Sir, then I think he is quite justified in asking that the 3346 . ... ,

J,me 28, 1972 Tape No. 1049 NC - 2 water and s ewer system in Sen! Cove be pl11ced hiAh on the list of priorities of the Deportment of }lunicipal Affairs and Housing. I do wish him luck, Sir . 1 hope that he can ge t the pr.ayer of this petition ansver:-ed, but I am nfraid that the statements that the honourable ~inister o( Hunidpa l Affairs and Uousing made the other day, runninp, a closed~ door pol lcy , not mee tinp. delegatio ns from town councils and so forth, that the hon. member is go ing to have some difficulty in getting the wat er and sewer system for Seal Cove. But I do wish him the best of luck , Sir. 3347

June 28, 1972. Tape 1050 Page 1. Notices of Motions: MR. MAYNARD: ,-Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill, !An Act Further To Amend The W0rkmen's Compensation Act, 1962." ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: ~R.HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the member for White Bay South asked a question or gave notice of a question. I undertook to get details and furnish an answer to the House today. The honourable member's question was: Whether police were serving or distributing around the c.ity of St. John's a questionnaire or notice with respect to women serving as jurors. The position is, Mr.

Speaker, under the provisions of an amendment to the Judicature Act passed last year, that since June 1 of this year women are now eligible to serve as jurors in Newfoundland. The law also provides that in the City of St. John's a lLst of jurors must be taken during the period from and including the first day of June up to and including October 20 in each year. The jury list is now being taken in St. John's by two members of the Newfoundland Constabulary. This is the practice that has always been followed. Such police officers while taking the jury list pursuant to

Section 11 (4) of the Judicature Act, as amended last yc~r, leave with each woman,qualified to serve as a juro~ a form of notification and she may be 1if she wishes not to serve as a juror not to appear on the jury list 1 complete it and return it within ten days. There is no additional cost involved.Indeed it eliminates the cost of separately calling upon or leav :lng at the place of residence of a juror the notice. That is what is being done and the Act,as the honourable member will recall,provides that the notice has to be left at her place of residence and this is what is happening. It simply means this, that in Newfoundland now women are eligible to serve on 3348

June 28, 1972. TapP. 1050 Pa11e 2. juries. lf they want to be exempt there is a form that they can complete and return it to the revising officer - the magistrate or the superintendent of the jury list,within ten days at which time she will be exempt. MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, just before the Orders of the Day I would like to make a statement in connection with the Oil Refinery at Come by Chance, just to make the position doubly clear,if I can. The position in connection with pollution control at Come by Chance: Mr. Speaker, it was reaffirmed this morning.

We had a meeting and which was planned long ago,by the way,had nothing to do with yesterday's news, with representatives of Newfoundland Refining, Mr. Homer White and other represe nta tives of the company; Jakes Engi nee ring,who are the government consultants,to the government,etc. in connection wi.th the oil re.finery; Procon Great Britain Limited, who are the genera l contract ors,• Mr. Dustan, of the government ' service,who is the vice-president, of the financial crown corporation involved - 3349

June 28, 1972, Tape 1051, Pap.e 1 -- apb The position with respect to affluent control which is within the jurisdiction of the Government of Canada (Department of the Environment) is very clear.

At the insistance of this Government, after our visit to Ottawa in early May (when we were told by the Deoartment of the Environment at Ottawa that there were some ten ooints remaininp: to be agreed in connection with pollution control at CoJTie by Chance, as far as they were concerned) following that visit to Ottawarat our insistance,we arranged for meetings to be he]d between officials of the Depnrtment of the EnvironJTient, Procon, Nfld. Refining, Jacob's Engineerinr our consultants, and the r.lean Air. Water and Soil Authoritv, so that the question of pollution control at Come hy Chance would be settled.

It was a matter that had been discussed for many months before we came into office and had not been resolved. A meeting was held between all those parties on June 7 and 8 here in Newfoundland. A good many points were resolved at those meetings. As a result of those meetings on June 7 and 8, further meetinrs were held in Newfounclland Thursday and Friday of last week, I think that is June 22 and 23. At the conclusion of those Jlleetings, which were attended by all the parties that I have mentioned, the situation was completely resolved.

All the parties are in complete agreeMent on what needs to he done to satisfy the DepartJTient of the Environment in connection with affluent disposal at Come by Chance. He were so informed by our officials, and it is reconfirmed this morning that this is the caGe. All matters at issue about the necessary pollution controls had been agreed with the Department of the Environment. Yesterday morning, }1r. Speaker, the Minister of the EnvironMent, ~r.

Davies,called me and I believe he called the Premier also, to say that a statement would be made in the House of Commons vesterdav_.to the effect that a month would be given for this to be confirmed in writing and the revised plans deposited at Ottawa. Otherwise, an order might be made to stop construction. I naturally assumed that Mr. Davies woulci be 3350

June 21, 1972, Tape 1051, Page 2 -- apb explaining,when he made that statement, that these meetings had been held between the various narties and that everything was apreed, so that what remains to be done is simply a formality, That was not explained and his statement is . therefore most misleading. AN HON. ~MllER: Sabre rattling. )',lR. CROSBIE~ Yes, sabre ratt~ing unnecessary sabre rattliniz;. The Provincial Government, the P.C.Administration, js just as keen on having proper pollution controls at Come by Chance as the Government of Canada, which is what we have told them.

As a result of our efforts, these matters have all been resolved at the meetings held on June 22 and 23. Therefore, the telegram that has been sent (the telex) in a sense was unnecessary, but there is no harm in its being done. It should certainly be made clear th~t everythiniz; is agreed. What remains now is simplv a formality, confirmation in writing of the situation and submission of revised plans. Newfoundland Refining and our advisers tell us this can be done in the next seven to ten days. Therefore, the fuss and furo~ caused in the last twenty-four hours by this announcement in Ottawa, is quite unnecessary.

I do not think that there is anything else that I can say on it except that is it unnecessary. These matters are agreed. There is absolutely no possibility, no need for such an order to be made and no possibility we see for such an order to be made. The control of pollution with respect to emissions, that is the al~, what substances may go off in the air,is a question of provincial jurisdiction,which is being dealt with by the Clean Air, Water and Soil Authority here in the Department of Mines, Agriculture and Resources.

They have retained consultants to advise them, the firm of McLaren, James McLaren I think it is. AN HON. MEMBER: When were they retained? l-'IJI. CROSBIE· They were probably retained months ago, It is not anything recent. There will be a meeting on July 7, between Newfoundland Refining and the other parties and the Clean Air, Pater and Soil Authority,about 3351

June 2!· 197 2, Tape 1051, Page 1 -- apb emissions. We do not foresee any r,reat difficulties in that connection. The r;overmnent want to make it clear to the people of Newfoundland and particularly those workinp: at Come by Chance. Mr.Speaker, that any worry on their part that construction may have to be stopped tn a month's time ts entirely unnecessary. 3352 . . r::

June 28, 1972 Tape 1052 Mr.. Roberts: Sir, I am r,lad the minister has made the position clear. There is not much that I would add to it except to say that I believe consultants were retained by the province the better part of eight or ten months ago 1 on this matter, on the emission and I thought on the affluence as well. But I wonder if he could tell the House, Sir, he mentioned a meetinr, I believe on the 10th day of May,of the Environment Canada people,I gather. I think there were ten points and maybe I have the tens wrong, there were ten points.

Was that meetinr on the 10th of ~ay. the first intimation that the administration had or for that matter the provincial buildings , the Crown Cornoration involved 1 had that N.R.C. were not resolvinr, these matters? Now I ask that not to create a dehatenor to cause any controversy. I ask it because to my own knowledge these negotiations have been goinr on for well over a year and thev were goin9. on normally with proposals and counter-proposals and meetings and there was nothing untoward. Last night we had the experience of seeing two of the Federal members. Mr. C11rter and '1r.

McCn1th,trying to make cheap JM - 1 politics 011t of this, but I 11m not interested in that. What I am interested in is whether the meeting in May, held in Ottawa when the Premier and a number of his colleagues met with the Prime "!inister and a number of the other ministers at nttawa 1 whether that was the first intimation the e.dministrati.on had that the meetings between N.R.C. and the government had not come to the point they should have come to and that the matter was not being solved satisfactorily7 MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, we knew of co11rse that meetings were being held from time to time and there did not seem to he much progress being made,because of course Mr. Dustan kept ns informed on all these things. B11t at our meeting in Ottawa on Ma.v 10, if that is the date, it was the first time that we were told there were these ten specific points and 11nless action were taken to clear this up 3353

June 28, 1972 Tape 1052 that the minister might make an order, that he could order and might make an order that construction stop. We therefore took the necessary steps to see that they were resolved and it was from then on that our own consultants, Jacobs Engineerinp.,were instructed to participate in these meetings so they could advise us. "-1R. RORERTS: (Inaudible). MR. CROSRIE: - . ---------- They are not on pollution, not on pollution any more. 'l'herefore the matters have now been resolved. ?-IR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Labour if he has yet received the report of the committee that is investigatinf the most recent accident at the ERCO plant in Lon~ Harbour? MI3_._):!_~YI'!.!\RD.: Yes, :Mr. Sneaker, I have received a report and T will be dicussinr. it in a joint management union meeting tomorrow afternoon, if union arrangements can be J:1ade and I think thev can. I should have a further statement on it immediately after the meeting. ORDERS OF THE DAY: --- --- - ~- - - ---- MR.

ROHE(W.N.)_: On orders of the day, Your Honour, imbued as we are with a sense of responsibility and public spirit we will forero private members' day and allow the government estimates to proceed in the House. MR._NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is what you would call co-operation. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the Opoosition have agreed to foregoing private members' day butt helieve my honourable friend will concur that he has agreed also that this House may meet tonight for the purpose of considering.

So realizing that, - Well we do not like to pressure the Opposition, realizing that his colleagues will stand behind him on the other side and Standing Order (7) requires this technical motion, noon do not ad1ourn. I move that the House at six o'clock this after- "-fR. SPEAKER: Tt has heen moved and seconded that the House at six 3354 JM - 2

June 28, 19 72 Tape 1052 JM - 3 o'clock this evening do not adjourn, carried. On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: --·•--- 3355

.June ~8, 1972 Tape No. 1"153 NC - l 'm. r;QBF.RTS: 303-01, has the Premier a statement on it, ~'r. Chairman? "IR. '1001'.ES· Otlier than what I had to say last night. '·'r. Chairman, at that time the honourable Leader of the Opposition asked for the key personnel that were involved in that department, now I c0tild very easily give the total numbl·r 01 pP.rsonnc-1 involved but I think what he requires are Lhe senior people that ~re involved in information services and executive assistants, I would imagine.

The five people who draw a salary of significance here.That may be, I assume, is what the hon. leader wants: f)r, Stuart Peters, who is special adviser to me on a one year contract at $28,000 a year. Mr. Torn Doyle, Parliamentary Assistant at $10,000, Mr. David Butler, Director of lnformation Services at ~15,000, "'fr. Jim Stratton, the Press Information Officer at $8,500, Miss Dolores Carlson, Research Director at S8,SOO, these are the five that I assume the minister wanted to know about. Now regarding the duties of these particular people, ~fr. Chairman. Dr.

Stuart Peter is the man with a record which is I think well known to some of the members opposite. He is a man who has had experience with the Newfoundland Government before, before coming to a parting of the ways with my predececs,;or, but I would like to just give a.little of the background of the gentleman, He is the Cl1ainnan of the Planning T11.sk Force that we have established and he is to the future admini5tration of the government invaluable. In 1968, after Dr.

Peters left Newfonndland to _ioin the Government of Canada, he was under a contract as special adviser on science to Maurice Strong 1 the President of the Canadian International Development Association, For the first two years he was responsible 3356 .-.•

June 28, 1972 Tape No. 1053 NC - 2 for the development and the co-ordination of activities with respect to the establishment of international development and research. Ile continued as special adviser on science and technology with respect to C.I.D.A. activlties until 1971 when Maurice Stnmg left to become Secretary General to the United Nations Environment Conference to be held in Stockholm 1 whlch is just heinP, completed this spring. In the spring of 1971, Dr .

Peters accepted the position of Executive Director of the Outdoor Recreation Divisfon of the Ontario Department of Lands and Forests and was responsible for the policy and administration Jirection for Ontario's provincial parks, recreation areas, sports fishing and hunting, etc. Dr. Peters served on advisory noarrs in Canada and had a broad dealing with natural resources.

In addition he held the term and appointment as Canadian representative on twenty-four national advisory committees on science and technology,to the Economic and social council of the United Nations and then to the Secretary General of the United Nations. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MOORES: Yes, it is a second comin~ because he was kicked out by the original first coming. AN HON. MEMBER: He resigned. MR. MOORES: He resigned under some pressure, AN HON. MEMBER: Under pressure? MR. MOORES: I would think yes. I think so.

He was Deputy Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources and I think there was a crossing of the ways 1 as I say, between my predecessor and Dr. Peters himself. MR. ROBERTS: No. Dr, Peters ••• MR, MOORES: That is Dr, Peters' story. you can get the other gentleman's . MR. ROBERTS: No, I was involved and I know Stuart at least as well as, I 3357

June 28 , 1972 'rape No. 1053 NC - 3 have known him far longer. than the Premier has . He became llirector General of Planning in the Community and Socia l Development Department 8nd subsequently went with Maurice Stro ng , whom again l know far better than the Premier does. MR. MOORES: I do not know Ma1lrice Strong at all. MR. ROBERTS: A p:reat fellow. He is peddling around Stockholm on an environment con fcrence. The Minster of Mines was over here peddling with h lm. W!\S he not? MR. MOORF.S : Yes, well he was in Stockholm anyway . ~- _R!!_IH:RTS: Now, what J want co know is what he was peddli ng?

MR. 'IOORES: No, I think he was l>uying. Mr. Cha;lrmnn, regarding Or. Stuar t Peters, a salary of $28,00 0 a yeRr nn a contractual 3358

June 28, 1972 Tape 1054 PK - 1 MR. MOORES: arrangement for any government, particularly our government, is a very high salary. With the priority that we placed on planning, I think it is absolutely essential and I consider crucial to have a man of Dr. Peters, ability, I am very thankful that he is available. He has had higher offers from private industry in Newfoundland,which he has turned down. He is not being paid by any other agency other than ourselves.

Basically, he is very concerned ahout the future of this province and I make no apologizes whatsoever for the salary that he gets compared to other people in the civil service who are appointed for varying reasons othPr than their past, I think he is very competent and very carable of doing the job which he is associated with now. Mr. Tom Doyle's salary was mentioned previously in a question in the House. Mr. Butler's salary, 1 would imagine we will discuss this together with the others under the function of Information Services, as such.

If I could just have a moment to review that function now, the Information Services has been established not to replace the Newfoundland Bulletin, That is not the object 1 to replace one propaganda organ with another. It was suggested to us hy the local branch of the Radio and Television News Directors'Association. They put in a proposal as to what they thought was the best means of disseminating infonnation, and we thought it was a good idea.

The terms of reference of the department, as the Leader of the Opposition knows, this has been spelled out very clearlY, and if that is not the case, the service will be stopped, But the function of the service basically is to issue statements from the various departments of government,from the Leader of the Opposition, from any of those people who basically have an influence on the government of the province, The function of the department will also be, in time, to make legitimate programmes that are available to people in various communities make available to various segments of our societytwhether it be fishermen 3359

June 28, 1972 Tape 1054 PK - 2 MR. MOORES: or whoever and to make sure that the pertinent information, municipal councils and so,on is circulatPd to the various groups that are concerned in the province. They will not have the Pro~ressive Con~ervative logo at the top of the stationery, they will have Information Services and I hope that is exactly what the particular function of this department will do. I think it is very unfair to say that this department is unnecessary until they have had time to prove or dis-prove themselves.

A memorandum has gone out to each of the employees,which the Opposition has seen, but they must be totally nonpolitical with regard to partisan politics. In fact any proof that the service as a whole or the people within it were involved in partisan politics in any way would be grounds for dismissal.

They are to refrain from in any way incumhering the normal relationships between the press and the ministers of the government or the Leader of the Opposition 0 ln dealing with the media. the Newfoundland Information Service acts only on solicitation by the press or the individual ministers or the Leader of the Opposition. In other words,the Information Services prepares research, finds out rese -•rches, prepares statements for those who need the information and acts as a contact for the media generally.

The cost of the Information Service Department, as it will he set up this year, is $40,000 in sal~ries for five people, that includes Mr. Butler, Miss Carlson and Mr. Stratton. A further $16,000 for the equipment that has to be installed, for a total of $56,000. M1,:. Chairman, That, once again, I do not think is a lot of money for the service, I hope that the Information Service will perform. Just - in passing and not to to condemn, I state that the Bulletin last year costed $178,00G. service will cost $56,000, and I hope that it will be a hetter service to the people generally.

One other point I might make, I-fr. Chairman, is that virtually every other province in Canada does have this sort of service, It is not unique to here. It is a service that has been working in Th:I s 3360

June 28, 1972 Tape 1054 PK - 3 MR. MOORES:_ Ontario and Alberta and other provinces for quite a considerable length of time. 3361

June 28, 1972 Tape No. 1055 NC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I do not propose to start at this c;tage a long discourse on the information services. I appreciate what the Premier has said and indeed I had a letter, as I am sure he knows, from the Director of Information Services, Mr. Butler, in which he offered to make the services available to me and in effect what he said was a precise of what the Premier has iust said I do not have my reply here, but I wrote him back and just thanked him and said I understood the motives which led him to write to me and sincerely yours, that was it.

I have no intention of makin~ any use whatsoever of these services nor does any of my colleagues. That however does not take away from the fact that there may or may not be a valid purpose to be served by the Information Services Division. I think we are going to have to wait a year and we will wait and we w.ill see. I am prepared to give the Premier the benefit of the douht. I think he has good intentions and the thing could fulfill a genuine need. I could say the same thing about •The Bulletin!' J am one of those who believe that"The Bulletin"did fulfill a p:enuine need.

I hasten to add that its effectiveness was destroyed quite ,·ffeetively here in this House,but the fact remains that there are manv people on this island who have no access to regular information, no access at all. To take an example, Mr. Chairman, I saw on the C,B.C, news last evening, it may or may not have been on C.J.O.N., I did not see it there, I saw the news, but the Minister of Municipal Affairs made a statement to the effect that delegations could go away, that he would not he seeing them, etc. , so forth.

It was also~ I believe, in yesterday's "Evening Telegram." Now whether it was a good statement or a bad statement is a separate matter, but earlier today I was talking with one of the town councillors in my constituency,who rang up and asked ahout a spec:!al grant, and 1 said; 3362

June 28, 1972 Tape No. 1055 NC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: "well, have you not seen the minister's statement?" They had not nor had they heard of it. I think that is just one example. You can find many hundreds of examples throughout this province, Sir, where people do not have access to newspapers on anything like a regular. basis, indeed outside the Avalon Peninsula, Gander, Grand Falls, Corner Brook and maybe one or two of the contiguous areas. Stephenville gets the newspapers daily, does it not? It does. The member for Port au Port nods wisely and sagely. AN HON. MEMBER: He puts out one, dues he not? MR .

ROBERTS: Well yes, he purs out one,but I am talking about the daily newspapers, not the ..• ·AN HON, MEMBEP: You' are talkinp, ahout newspapers. HR. ROBERTS:: Yes, not ''The Georgian'', I think is the nam,~ of his publication, He is another h'illiam Randolph Hurst in disguise, as long as we do not have Sam Simeon down an the other side of Steph,,nville Pond. But many people do not have ~ccess to newspapers.

Indeed if you take the circulation of the papen• that are milde avail :1hle in this province, you have got about 26,000 or 27,000 a day for "Thf' Evening Telegram", you have got about 8,000 I think for "The Dai]y Newi-;", "The Western Star" is of the order of 10,000, that is 45,000 out of a quarter of a million adults in this province, so roup,hly one nut of every six people see a paoer. You realize there is a .ot of duplication in that. ~Aost of the people who take "The Daily News" would also take "The Evening Telegram" I think you will see that there ~ s Ati 1.1 a need.

Well "The Bulletin;' in my view, was fulfilling that need. There were people who differed with that opinion and the present administration have decided to end it. Well that is fine. I mean thay have done that and unless we want to debate it for about the seventeenth time in this Committee or in this House, I do not propose to go on with it. 3363

lune 28. 1972 Tape No, 1055 NC - 3 The Information Services may or may not fulfill the need. All that 1 can say is that we will be watcld.ng ver:r closely. If there :1.s any instancP of partisan intervention by them, we will take the Premier at his word and brinr, it to his attention, not throul',h Informatior. Services but through th'-' media. It is to be expectPd and we will expect the appropriat<' aclLon to be taken.

Along those lines l mdy ask him,already I have asked him privately, 1 ask him now publicly to look at a statement made by Information Services on June 8, and I hope they will continue to ~end me, I aporeciate hein.~ on their mailing list, 1 do not want a te.l,,•x in the offiee but maybe they will send me their statements. They make interesting reading. I usually get them ahout four days after they appear in the newspaper.

Rut it is interesting, where Information ~~rvices took it upon themselves to issue a press releasr respectinr, a letter written hv a memh ·· of the House who happens to he a minister, hilt not in his official capacity. I am speaking of a letter written by I bE-lieve he is the senior member for Harbour Main, the 11-!inister of Supply and Services, to the six members of Parliament at Ottawa, the hon. Hr. Jamieson, and the five other M.P. 1 s. I asked the Premier if he thinks it isa, function of Information Newfoundland to report on letters written by ministers who were not acting in their capacity as ministers.

This letter reiterates the proposal which the hon. gentleman made in this House. It happened to be a proposal with some merit/to make all the police vehicles on the Trans Canada ambulances, There is something to be said for that, it should be looked at and it is worth looking at and doubtlesss will be looked at. I do not know what in the devil Information Newfoundland is doing issuinP. press releases on it. It is stretching it into ,the political when you hear the hon. ii;entleman quoted.\.Jell I will read the 3364

June 28, 1972 Tape No. 1055 NC - 4 whole release, Why not? Maybe some hon, gentleman did not have it delivered to him. " Supply and Services Minister, the honourable Gordon 1,, Dawe, has called on the Federal Minister of Transport and the other five Newfoundland M.P.'s for their support in his bid to do away with standard police patrol cars on the Trans Canada Highway across Newfoundland and replace them with fully equipped ambulances. "Mr. Dawe made the same proposal in the Newfoundland House of Assembly on June 2. In a letter to the members of Parliament, dated June S"(the release is dated June 8)1'Mr.

Dawe says many stretches of the Trans Canada Highway in Newfoundland are remote from emergency ambulance services and as a consequence 'all to often the unfortunate victim of motor vehicle accidents on this highway are left to suffer for long periods of time waiting the arrival of ambulance service."' It goes on, "I have personally witnessed this on two or three occasions.'' He says, "it is academic to reflect upon (quote).''the stupid, foolhardy manner in which all too many drivers conduct themselves on this high-speed highway" (mis-spelled) "asinine, insensible and careless driving is bound to continue but this is precious little consolation to relatives of those killed this year and to thoSPwho have to live out their lives in disfigurement and discomfort." (end quote), Mr.

Dawe told the federal member it was estimated that between one hundred and thirty and one hundred and forty persons have been killed on the Newfoundland portion of the Trans-Canada Highway from 1965 to 1971. In support of his request, Mr. Dawe said that in Montreal similar delay in the ambulance service was being experienced in connection with motor accidents, however the city fathers there came to grips with the problem and equipped their polic force with ambulances rather than patrol cars, 3365

June 28, 1972 Tape No. 1055 NC - 5 Montreal statistics now show the traffic accident death rate has diminished significantly. Mr. Dawe asked the members to consider that the tourist season is here and the traffic flow on the province's highways, especially the Trans-Canada, will be heavier than any previous year to date, (quote)" the deduction which readily comes to mind is that the accident rate will be proportionately increased." (end quote) Now, Mr.

Chairman, this particualar gem can be criticized. it is faulty in grammer, Its logic is atrocious and its reasoning is worse, If it were done in a journalism class it would rate -5 on a scale of Oto 100. But I do not raise it now for the purpose of pointing out that it is a terrible piece of journalism. It really is0 It is badly written and it is not clear and it does not present a case effectively. With all that, it is still a good suggestion. What I want to know is why Infonnetion Services are reporting to the media, why the government propaganda are, and propaganda is not necessarily a nefarious word.

Those of the Committe who are classical scholare,such as the gentleman from Burgeo, can cast their mind ~ack. The member for St. Mary's would agree, the original Greek "propogandus" means ''truth',' So propoganda·can or cannot have a nefarious meaning, But the fact remains that the government's propoganda agency sent out this release, which I submit had nothing to do with the administration.It is hardly informing the people of Newfoundland what the administration are going to do. It is just reporting on a political statement made by a political gentleman or it may have been an accident.

It may have been that it just happened once. AN HON. GENTLEMAN: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: The burp from Burgeo burps again. What did he say? What did the gentleman say? MR. EVANS: The squirt from White Bay. 3366

June 28, 1972 Tape No. 1055 NC - 6 MR. ROBERTS: 'i:)e squir t from White Bay, t hat could be, Mr. Chairma n. MJ:. Chairman , at least I goth.ere on my first try, and r did not take five as did the hon • . gentleman. MR. EVANS: You will not be in the next. MR . ROBERTS: However, the hon. gentlem an should just hope he ge ts into the Cabinet i n the next shuffle, at least level one if not higher . As I was saying, Sir , J would like to know why the government of this province are issui ng press rele.-ises relating to members' speeches.

A~ fa r as I know, even ''I'he Bulletin" in its balmiest days did not do th:it . lt may have recorded a .Budget Speech, _1ust as the province paid to have this year ' s Budget Speech published and doubtless it has been distributed and so it should be . 3367

June 28, 1972 Tape no. 1056 Pagel - MRW Mr. Robets. a document of public interest, Down in Northeast Crouse in White Bay,they are up every night reading the budget, back and forth and antiphonally as in a Greek course, in Gregorian chant at times, some of the more eloquent passages. What I am trying to say is that we have one example of the Information Services straying from its mandate. An assurance from the Premier that this is but an error would suffice. I will let the matter drop at that, He has told us that the service is not to be a political or a partisan political business. That is fine.

We will take that on sufferance until we see what happens. The fact remains that we have had at least one example of something which is surely partisan and political. If the Minister of Supply and Services wants to write to the M.P. 'sat Ottawa, that is fine. That is his right and his duty and privilege. I do not think he needs Information Newfoundland to make it public or to help him in his press releases, The Premier may or may not wish to say something about that. The only other point he made dealt with Dr. Peters. I know Dr. Peters well. He is a considerable friend of mine and myself a friend of his.

I do not quarrel with the Premier's decision to appoint him to be an executive assistant or special adviser or whatever the precise title is. Whether or not $28,000 per annum which is $650 a week - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR, ROBERTS: Yes, but I would not get that from the Premier, It has more than four figures in it, The $650 a week roughly - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: No, it is not. I am not getting much help at all. It is $560 a week. The figures were transposed, Whether or not that is too high, we will see, The gentleman could easily be worth that.

There are civil servants - the Minister of Health has any number of officials down there, the medical doctors who are getting $42,000 or $45,000. Some of the S,M.O.'s are getting what? Is it $42,000 or $43,000? I do not begrudge them a cent of it. I am sure if the minister could get twenty more, he would gladly hire them, money well spent. I am not going to get into a hassle 3368

June 28, 1972 Mr • Roberts Tape no, 1056 Page 2 over Stewart Peters' salary nor for that matter am I going to get into a hassle over any of them at this stage. I would like for the Premier to say something about this release about ambulances. If he wants to make a statement on what the administration are doing, I would welcome that too, I would like some assurance that this is an isolated incident, We are not going to have Information Newfoundland reporting every out­ going of one of the gentlemen opposite. There is a very thin line, Sir, between an information service and a propaganda machine.

There is a very thin line, It is easy to transgress on it This has crossed the line. I would like an assurance that it is a one-shot deal. Other than that,the only other question I have, Sir, on this point or on this vote at least, unless something else comes up is: Who is the employment officer? I notice in the list there is $11,000 in the salary appendix and an Administrative Officer II at about $11,200 a year. The other people there, I think the questions have been answered before this and we have adequate information on that point, together with what the Premier gave us a few minutes ago, Sir. MR, MOORES: Mr.

Chairman, the employment officer, that was Mr. McCann. That was answered in the House sometime ago, when that question was asked, That information had been made available previously. Regarding Dr. Peters' salary, the fact that the hon, Leader of the Opposition has said that we will wait and see, I am very thankful for that. I think ' we will see a great deal from the gentleman.

As he also said, there are a great many people in this building who have been appointed at much greater salaries than that for much longer lengths of time, There are some people for five-year contracts, There are some for ten-year contract and up to $37,000, MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible ) • MR. MOORES: There is one at $37,000 for a five-year contract, which is a pretty hefty clout, 3369

June 28, 1972 Tape no. 1056 Page 3 Mr. Moores. Mr. Chairman, regarding the function of the Information Services, the type of thing the Leader of the Opposition brought up is valid. I do not think it is a major breach of the function. I think it is probably one that happened in its initial stages when really minor mistakes are bound to happen. I think probably it is a minor mistake because it is not the function that this service was put up for. However, there ts one thing that I would like to say and I cannot help but say it. It is unfortunate. I will be referring to it later in the budget.

Once again we have seen,when we are talking about estimates, when we are talking about the function of various departments, once again we have to bring in personalities: How a man writes a letter, what his grammar is like, what the intent is like. MR. ROBERTS: MR. MOORES: _MR. ROBERTS: MR. MOORES: A press release, not a letter. Then you did a critique. A press release You did a critique of how it was done in the minister's letter. Mr. Chairman, all I am saying is that the sooner we can drop personalities and generalities in this House, the better off we will be.

This is not a critique of the Leader of the Opposition right now. It is a critique of a great many things happening and this is obviously the wrong place to be saying it. I think the sooner we get the rules changed in the House to get down to the business at hand, the sooner we stop a lot of partiality that is battering back and forth and the sooner we will be a better government. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, not only did the Premier speak in the wrong place and as he said, it is the wrong thing.

What I did,and I will keep on doing it,is not personalities, The government of this province, the people of this province, Sir, are paying for this. We have an Information 3370 . ..

June zs. 1972 MR. Robert:s Tape no. 1056 Page 4 Services Director at $15,000 per annum. We have a research officer at $8,500. We have another employee down there at $8,500 per annUJ11. We have two other people, I assume they are stenographers or clerk typists or something like that, The total is $40,000. I did not mention any names. I have no idea who wrote this. What I did say and I will repeat: "It is a very bad piece of journalism." I referred to a letter written to me by the Director of Information Services, I did not make any critique of it, I merely said that there was a letter and that I had replied to it.

If the committee wishes it tabled, I will gladly table it, When you get a government - this is not personalities and I think the Premier owes not an apology because he did not do anything for which he should apologize but I think he perhaps should make it clear. I feel as strongly as he does about personalities. It was not one of my colleagues who started a hatchet job here the other night. We will see about that. AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Yes, I agree that the honourable gentleman has been at it over there for five years. MR. NEARY: The Minister of Finance. MR. ROBERTS: Knock off!

Do not bother with the hon. gentleman for St. John's Centre. He is not worth it, What I said ~as that a release put out by an agency of the government of this province is illiterate, It says, "delays was being experienced." Surely a $15,000 a year director and an $11,000 a year research officer, $8,500 or whatever the prices are down there for the staff, can at least have the subject and the verb in the same number. You made need a new typewriter. You also misspelled "speed." Logic was ~371

June 28, 1972, Tape 1057, Page 1 -- apb faulty. I Paid that as a piece of journalism in a school of journalism would be minus five on a scale of "O" to "100", That is not any personal reference to anybody. I have no idea who authored or misauthored this document. I auite agree about personalities in this House. I could not agree more. It is not a matter of chanpinv the rules,as the Premier seems to think. It is a matter of all of us, the forty-two of us, or forty-one now, livinr: up to the rules, because the rules are auite clear on this one.

What I said and I hone the Premier will come back, I have not been into any personalities and I am not going to get into any. But, when we are being asked to vote money for an information service, the least the information service can do is be properly grammatical. That is all I said. I will say it again and I will go on saying it. It has nothing to do with personalities, nothing to do with anything excent the quality of the information service. I think the auality of the information service in this instance needs improvement. HR. MOORES: ------ } 1r.

Chairman, I thought that the Leader of the Opposition was referring to the text of a letter written hy the minister to Ottawa. If I min interpreted that I was wronp. But all I. .. •-m. P,OBERTS: . ------ &-~- No, I was readinp. I have not seen the letter. }~_._ !~O_O_R_E_S_· All I would like to say in reply to that is that I am p:lad that the 'Newfoundland Bulletin," which was half pictures of the winisters 1 has finally gone as well. AN H('N . }fEMBER '. •~r. Chairman ••• }'R. MOORES: As for .1ournalism, "'r.

Chairman, it is a fact that the Newfoundland Bulletin' which did, and I think anyone who has read it realized that it was half pictures of various ministers in action as opposed to statinp policy of what was the result of their action. This is political propaganda, partisan propaganda of the worse kind. I do not want to pet into an argument on this, but what I do want to say Chairman, is that .•• '·"R • ROBERTS : --- ---· The Premier is going ahout it in a funny wav ... 3372 .-.-

June 28. 1972, Tape 1057, Pa?-e 2 -- apb MR, MOORES· Well that sounds better at the end rather than the ------ .. .. beginnin?. I arree, but this may not be the end. ~fR. MOOllES, The honourable Leader of the Opoosition is probably sensitive to the fact that he was - 'they was ministers, Mr. Chainnan. }'R. ROBERTS · t-lR. NEARY, ---- -- Was and will be. Mr.

Chainnan, in view of the fact that ~2P,OOO is a fantastic amount of money to be naid to J)o~tor Peters, as I understand it, on a one year contractural basis, I wonder if the honourabl0 Premier could tell us whether Doctor Peters is full-time with the PreJ11ier's office or is he permitted or, is he on the oayroll of any business or industry i.n the province? Can he also serve private enterprise in addition to his iob in the Premier's office? Before the Prenier answers that, he has already lost his bet, so he may as well relmc: and en_1oy the nfternoon. I would also li1'e to know, Mr.

Chairman, if the Sl~,000 for eauipment includes the teletype equipnent? MR. t-lQORES: Yes . it does. ------- l'.IR~~-~RY~ The Premier says it does include the cost of installinp. teletypes in the various offices. Well then, could the honourable Premier tell us what offices, what news offices the teletype machines will be installed in? Will it be only in St. John's or will it be ri!!ht across the whole island and Labrador, in the newspaper offices in Labrador? I would also like to know, Mr. Chairman, if t-'r. McLean's advertisin!! has anything to do with "Information Nel·foundland"?

I think it is under the Premier's office somewhere, Sir, that we have to find out what this outfit from Ontario, from Toronto,is costing the province. I think the Premier owes it to the people of Newfoundland to make a statement in this House to tell us just precisely how much, directly and indirectly "Information Newfoundland'' is going to cost. How much it is going to cost to maintain this advertising agency from Toronto? I did hear a figure, Sir, of $8,000 a week. I do not believe it. I think that is a gross exaggeration, but I was told that 3373

June 28, 1972. Tape 1057, Page 3 -- aph ~r. t•cLean and his associates are bein~ paid ~8,000 a wee~·, Sir. Perhaps the Premier can confirm or deny this. I would like to know what the total amount of expenditure is bein)? handled by ~-!clean directly and :Indirectly? What ••. ~ • Cll/1 IllJv!AN • Order: The Headini;,: under discussinn is 303-01, the l'remier's Office,Salaries. The f'hair maybe mistaken, hut the Chair does not see where HcLeans Acl.vertisin.e is included in this. Of course ... MP, ~(lBFFTS, (First

part inm·dihle) Your Honour. for "cLean Advertisiniz or whatever the firm is, but this vote is realJv the minister's vote for the denartment, because the salaries of course are included in the salary of the Premier. I do think it is in accord with the practice of the committee and the P.ouse that a fairly wide latitude of debate back and forth is allowed. If there is soll'e other place in the. estimates where this may be raised fine, hut we could see that this is the only place where the matter could be discussed. I do think it is in order, Sir. MP..

CllA.IRPAN, I wonder if it mipht not he more nractically n subiect matter for question to be tahled in the House? However, m1whe the Premier can relate as to whether there is a Headinir - any other Headinp. other than this that it can come under. If not. I would ap:ree that it is subject for discussion here. iu1. ROBERTS· · --------- Your Honour. as for question tabled, of course many if not all the ouestions asked on estimates could also be the sub.1ect of ouestions tabled in the normal way and nut on the Order Paper.

But.. t·!R • CHA IRJv!AN : -- --· -- - -- - --- Again though. subject to the rule of relevance and when we get to a Head:Lnit. ~ ._ ROBERTS: Oh, agreed! but I mean, surely Your Honour this, and I press because I think it is an important point, this is relevant to - the outfit is in the Premier's office the information co~plex ..• MR. CHAIRMAN· I do not know about that. ---------- -- ~'R. ROBERTS : Well the Premier, I do not know if ~cl.ean is, I mean, I have no idea, we are trvirp. to find that out. But Information Services 3374 ....

June 28, 1972, Tape 1057, Page 4 -- apb is attached to the Premie~ administratively at least. You know,the salaries vote, 303-01 the one we are on does include the Premier's salary. In effect, it is the minister's vote if there were a department of the Executive Council. But we can hardly do it Your Honour on the discussion of the Lieutenant Governor's establishment. That would be grossly improper, nor on the Electoral Office because that only has to do with the Chief Electoral Officer. So I would ask if we could proceed on this for a little bit. MR .

CHAIR:IKAN · If the honourable member would restrict the discussion --·- - ··-- -- .. until we find whether it is something that the Premier can enlighten the member on. If there is another Headini:, it can be discussed under, then maybe we can discuss it under that. ~. NEARY· Mr. Chairman, I have not been able to find it under any other Heading. I would llke to know what the service charges are and what the commissions are to HcLeans Advertising, The Premier has been making the public announcements on this propaganda machine that has been set un, which no doubt Mr. ~fcLean has his finger in.

Sir, there is no doubt about that. So I would like to know what the total expenditure will be. I have a feeling, :!Kr. Chairman, if you get the direct expenditure and the indirect expenditure, that it will amount to a lot more than the cost of the '"Newfoundland Bulletin' ·· a lot more, Sir. With rep;ard to ''Information Newfoundland' Sir, my honourable colleague, the Leader of the Opposition,has covered the subject fairly adequately, but there is one thing that disturbs me about it, Sir, about this whole matter of McLeans ar.•d "Information Newfoundland''.

It seems to be creating a barrier, throwing an obstruction between the people and the minister. Mr. Chairman, you will remember that on a number of occasions in this House so far this session, I brought up the matter of ministers not being accessible to the people. They should be, Sir, the people have a right to be able to see their elected representatives. But 3375

June 28. 1972. Tape 1057. Page 5 -- aph somehow or other , a harrier ls beinl' created. The people who come into Confe<leration BuildinR or who write letters or telenhone in are shunted off. Sir, to some exnens:lve, paid, what we have been callinit flunkies. I do not know if that is the proner term for the1n or not, Sir. ttaybe it is not. Maybe the honourable member for St. John's East can think of a bet. ter term, They were supporters of the Tory l'arty, Sir. They actively campaip.ned for the Tory Party and now they are on the payroll . I think this is wronr:, t!r . Chairman. I t h:1.n~ :I t is wronr. .

As I said a few moments a~o. people do have a ri~h t to he able to see J11inisters. We heard the ~'inister of Hunicipal Affairs and Housin~ the other dav, yesterdav I think it was; that his door was c losed . He is not seejnJ.! 3376

June 28, 1972 Tape 1058 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: any more delegations? MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chainnan, on a point of order. the statements of the honourable member are not relevant. If he wants to make any inquiry concerning any minister,like the Minister of Municipal Affairs, the estimates of the Department of Municipal Affairs are coming up and I would submit that a debate now would be transcending the boundary. MR. ROWE, W.N. On a point of order, Sir, I would submit that the honourable member is not getting into a debate on the Department of Municipal Affairs at all.

What he is talking about is the government policy or the lack of government policy with respect to access to ministers or the government or the Premier or the government in general. Sir, the salary that we are now discussing includes, the salary's head we are now discussing includes the Premier's salary. The Premier is the Leader of the of the government and, therefore, is the best spokesman on these matters of general government policy and I would submit that my colleague is not out of order in pursuing this particular matter, MR.

CHAIRMAN, If the honourable member restricts the discussion to raising the matter of policy to which the honourable member is referring then the honourable member is not out of order on this particular point. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr, Chainnan, I am just merely making this point because I am hoping that Information Newfoundland will not be established for this reason. I have also heard that newsmen in this province are finding it very difficult to get through to ministers.

The Minister of Education, for instance, if you want to get a comment or a statement from the Minister of Education, you first of all, as we are told now, Sir, this is the rumor, the Premier may confinn or deny this, we are told that you have to call the minister's office leave your name, leave the question with his private secretary, then 3377

June 28, 1972 Tape 1058 PK - 2 MR. NEARY! you hang up the phone, then the infonnation is passed on to the minister and I do not know what he does with it. The question is answered, send back through the secretary, back to the newsmen. Now, Sir, this seems to me to be a little bit peculiar. It has not happened before. There was alwavs en open door policy in Confederation Building. I hope, Sir, this is not the purpose for creating this Information Newfoundland. I think the honourable Premier is quite sincere when he says that he wants to bring government to the people. But I am not so sure about his ministers. Mr.

Chairman, not so sure - 'I-IR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, if I may at this time, would the honourable member mind repeating what he just said? MR, NEARY: Mr. Chainnan, I mentioned the honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs, I mentioned the honourable Minister of Education, it is virtually impossible to reach the Minister of Social Services and Fehabilitation, Sir. He stated himself in this honourable House that he was not meeting welfare recipients.

If the honourable Minister of Provincial Affairs would spent a little more time in the House he would be up to date on this and he would not have to stand and ask me a question. MR. MURPHY: That is unjust. MR. NEARY: It may be unjust, Sir, but it is true. And so if the government are going to bring government to the people, then I would say, Sir, they not shut the ministers off from the people, that they not have unlisted telephones.The~e are ministers on the opposite side who have unlisted telephones. Why, Mr. Chairman? Why? Are they being bugged by people? Are people a bother to them? 3378

June 28, 1972 Tape 1058 PK - 3 MR. MURPHY: THey are too poor to get them in. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the honourable Minister of Finance can well afford to get a phone in, I am sure of that. I am sure of it. But, Sir, people should have access to the ministers. That is what they are there for. That is what they were elected for, If they do not like it, get out. Nobody has got a gun in their back and saying, "you have to go and sit in the House of Assembly, you have to serve as a minister." Nohody is saying that, Sir, forcing them into it. It is voluntary• Any time they do not like it they can leave.

My eleven years in poll.tics, Sir, r have not had an unlisted phone and I never will. AN HON. MEMBER: You cannot afford it. MR. NEARY: Maybe I cannot afford it. I did not get $2.6 million. So, Mr. Chairman, I would like for the Premier to clear the air. Because this is true, people all over this province are saying they cannot get information and here we are paying fantastic sums of money, setting up this Information Newfoundland, bringing in the Bay Street boys from Toronto, Sir, and yet ministers are becoming rapidly inaccessible. I think this is wrong.

I do not know if the Premier is aware of it or not, maybe he is not, maybe he will stand in his place in this House this afternoon and say; "as long as I am Premier of this province, nobody will be denied an audience with one of my ministers:' I hope he will stand here and tell us that, Sir1 because people are being denied an audience with the ministers, they cannot make appointments. They are not getting replies to their letters. They cannot reach the ministers by phones. What kind of a Newfoundland are we going to have, Sir? The people of this province are entitled to better than that. AN HON.

MEMBER: BunkUl'II \ Bunkum! MR. NEARY: It is not bunkum. AN HON, MEMl3ER: It is bunkum and worse ••. MR NEARY: Mr. Chairman, is the honourable Premier going to answer these inquires. That is nice parliamentary language. 3379

June 28, 1972 Tape 1058 PK - 4 ~R. ~~~ I assume, Mr. Chairman, when the honourable gentleman sat down, he would now stop talking. There is always some doubt, I am sorry. Well sometimes we do not know, Mr. Chairman, if the honourable gentleman is sitting down or talking or wanting to be heard or talking to be listened to. But on the points that he raised; Dr. Peter9 was approached hy private industry in Newfoundland to come here to accept a job. We offered him a job instead. As of May 1, Dr. Peter has not been working for any other firm or any corporation. MR NEARY: Inaudible.

MR MOORES: No, he never did join the corporation. He came to work directly with the government. Regarding the teletype equipment that figure is included in the $56,000, the installation. The locations of that teletype equipment is at C.TON, CBC and VOCM here in St. John's, "The Evening Telegram" and "The Daily News", "The Western Star" and the other independent radio station in Corner Brook and the CJON, VOCM and CBC feed their information to their affiliates in Labrador and the other points in the Island. I think those are the major ones where they have been installed.

Regarding the McLean involvement with - certainly there is nothing in my department that he has been involved in, Any particular project that comes up in any department that his services apply to, he is eligible to bid on it as others will be. There is nothing restrictive about the individual himself, The reason why he is not listed as a heading, a very large heading, the reason he is not is any more than Sanitary Products is not. I mean this is just no place to put in a function.

The suggestion that was mentioned, that he was receiving $8,000.a week,is totally incorrect, He has nothing whatsoever to do in any shape or form with the Information Services. Nothing whatsoever! He is not paid as an adviser. He has no input 3380 .... ,

June 28, 1972 Tape 1058 PK - 5 MR. MOORES: into that service at all. His job or the jobs that he may get will be from bidding,on the expertees that he has within government departments. The only job that he had where he finished .'l.nd which he was paid for was in assisting the P, C. Party during the two elections, which has nothing to do with this vote, or maybe it does. But one thing that the honourable member says that bothers me a little bit,where he comes down pretty hard on the people from Toronto coming in here and taking the bread out of Newfoundlanders mouths.

Now I happen to know1in McLean's case, he has eight employees of which six are Newfoundlanders. I only hope that the people in Toronto do not ever take the attitude that jobs in Toronto are for Torontonians only, or we will have, as the honourable member would say, one hell of a doze of Newfoundlanders back on our plate. We live in a country where we should be able to move from province to province or from to-i-m to to'lom1 and to say this stigma that someone comes from the mainland, someone comes from another community, the fact that that is wrong or right,to me, to put any stigma to it at all is totally wrong.

We are either Canadians living in a country where we can travel hack and forth freely, we either play our part as Canadian, we either do that by being good Newfoundlanders or not. I feel very strongly about this. This business,because someone is from somewhere else they are automatically bad, I do not think it is really very good publicity or very good reasoning on our behalf. Regarding the accessibility of ministers, Mr.

Chairman, it is the policy of this government to be as accessible as possible I think what the Minister of Municipal Affairs did say was that town councils have to learn to live within their budget. In a great many cases in the past and I know in particularly, as it applies to the office that ~381

June 28, 1972 Tape 1058 PK - 6 MR. MOORES: I hold now, a great many committees and delegations would come in to get a few thousands dollars for this or for that. I think what we have got to do for municipalities or whatever group it may be,is to also do some planning and some budgeting as to what they can or cannot do so 3382 I· •

June 28, 1972 Tape 1059 that everything is not piecemeal ,md that we have to get on some kind of a system where neople accept responslbilities themselves and not always f?.O to government to say, ·•what can you do for me?:· I think it is time, as the Minister of Municipal Affairs has said, for people to say. 'How can we control our own r1estinv and how can we approach f?_overnment on an overall basis rathPr than a niecemeal hasis?;' Mr.

Chairman, before the honourable Premier takes his seat I wonder if he would be good enou?,h to p.et "le a list of the work that McLean's are doinp.: for thP various c:lepartments of p;overnment at the )')resent time and at what cost, what the charges are. I know the PreJ11ier does not have that information at his fingertins now but T would like to have it tomorrow or the next dav. I would also live to know. Mr. Chairman, seeinj?. the honourable Premier hrought it up, if ~fcLe::m's are doing the "P.R." work for the Linerboarcl Mill in Stephenville and if public tenders were called for that contract.

JM - 1 ~- MOORE~_!_ Well the last one. I clo not know,is the ;mswer, Mr. Chairman. On the other one there is a question on thf' or<ler paper which I wi 11 get answered in the immediate future or try to before the House closes. On motion, sub-head 303, carried. ~fR._ ROWE(W.N.): On 3011(01). Mr.. Chairman. I would imagine that this is the vote out of which comes the salaries for the two '1'i.nis ter' s without Portfolio who flank the Premier's right hand side. Could the Premier give the House some information as to what the duties are of these various ministers?

He marle a public statement when he formulated or formed his Cllhinet some time ar,o, hack in Jan11ary ,in which he snell ed out vaguely what these Minister's without Portfolio were roin~ to do. Apparently they are not simply Minister's without Portfolio who have no duties, who merely come to C~hinet meetings and give the Cabinet and government the benefit of their advice as members of the Cabinet. Apparently they do have some speci. fie d11ties. The Minister without

June 28, 1972 Tape 1059 Portfolio from the District of St. Mary's apparently is the t,,linister. of Inter-r.overnmental Transactions or sornethinP', is that ri~ht? Inter-Governmental Affairs, rirh~ I rlo not know what exactly that ioh entails. The Minister l'livht 111 so inform us whether it was the nritish r.overnment or the Canadian r.overnment that the honourahle minister was supnosed to he transnC'ting affairs with. Oh listen to th11t over there! '·le have not Reen the honourable minister in the Howse f'or the '['last five months. I-le is back now.

I had not meant to snv this, Sir, but these cr.icki.es over i.n the corner. there, the four or five who are a positive embarrassment to the Premier at the best of tir.ies, have nrovoked me into statin~ that we have not seen the r.inister PithC'r in thP House or in the province and he is drawing, nresumahlv, a s.:11.arv fro!'1 the ?t1hl i c funcs of this nrovince. Hhat is the Man's iob, thP honourable minister's job? What is 11e goinr> to do? Whnt is he doinf' now? What has he done?

Al.so wh i I e he is at it he c:m also give us the benefit of some remarks on thP honourahle ),,!inister without Portfolio, the r.oveT'l"ment House Leacler. Annarently his .iob is to ,ict as Chief Government Inquisitor or some such thinp:. M:ivhe the PrPT"ier can enlighten ns on that. ~R_. _'105:!_~_S_: "fr. Chairman, the duties of the two ministers involved: JM - 2 With rep.ar<l to the '1inister ,,,ithout Portfolio, the member for St. John's !':<1st.on my rir.ht, there was a very real neecl to find ont some of the thinp.s thAt had ~one on in the past,when we came in. t'r.

Chairman. because we had no files to look up to find out what had ~one on in the nast. The man who is the llouse Leader has done several and many functions since he has been in the government, Reviewinr- of the committee system, reviewinf! and making recommendations as the Chair.man of the Rules Committee,which will he :1ctive throughout the sumll'er, and I think the responsih:f.]ity that he has which. whilst it is not a line denartment is a very valid one. 3384 r:

June 28, ] 972 Tilpe l 059 Regardinp the honourable member for S·t. Mary's, he will he full time, applyinr. himself to the recommenrlation of how a denartment of inter-governmental affairs will one rate. I mip.ht sav at this time that the restructurinr- that will take nlace within rovernment, anrl this is the senior civil service as well as at the ministerial level, the restructuring of povernment will mean a great many changes and inter-governmental affairs is roin!! to have a verv ma.ior role in any restructurinp._ that the government has. The honourahle memher for St.

Mary's will he applying his attention, as T said, from now on full· time to defining the tems of reference that such c1 function in that department will have. !'.ffi .• ROWE(W.N.): Is the honourable minister being oaid as Minister without Portfolio now or is he beinr paid as a full government - MR. MOORES: Without Portfolio. MR. ROWE(W.N.): So pres11J1tably he will be paid a full salary and I am sure that the honourable minister will do an excellent iob in any­ thing that the Premier wishes to rlelegate to him.

I would also like to say at this time, Sir, I do not know so much about the inquisitoral side of the job of the honourable member for St. Jrhn's East. I do not know how good or bad he is being at that whether he enjoys it or not but I would like to say publicly that in his role as Government House Leader he has been fair and iudicious and sensible in the conduct of the affairs of this House.

He and I, in MV modest capacity over here, have invariably come to agreements which we hope have been to the benefit of the House and have helped to expedite matters to this House and our agreements have always heen lived up to and he is doinp­ an admirable job. I commend the Premier for giving the honourable member for St .. John's East this particularly arduous role of trying to conduct the affairs of this House. He has done a good job1 in my estimation. 3385 .n• - 3

June 28, 1972 Tape 1059 JM - 4 MR. ~mORES: Mr. Chairman, I would like to sincerely thank the.Member for White Bay South for those k:ind remarks and 11lso,on behalf of the 11ouse Leader and on beh;tlf of the government, thank him as well for the way they have handled their business between themselves. I think they have handled it efficiently arrd once apain handled it extremely we]l. ~!_R_. __ ~OJ\FltTS: To that, Mr. Chairman, may I say I think we will keep the honoun1hle pentleJT1an froll' St. John's East on as House Leader for a hit. I only have one comment and one question, Sir.

The comment wouln be that it is extrn.ordinary.As T understood the Premier,the first iob of the Minister of Inter-Governmental Affairs (designate) is to finrl out what the Minister of Inter-Governmental Affairs is to do. J ;im not sure that is what the Premier said but that is certainly what I hearc over here. He has been appointed to a position ;md now has to cast n1->out ancl create R position. There is obviously a liaison between Ottawa and Newfoundland and like a lot of other thinos,T will wait and see how it works.

It may or may not work but I fin~ it sipnificant that no province except Alberta, I believe, has a 1!1nister - MR. ROR~RTS: Ontario. Ontario has ministers coming out of their ears . 'l'hey have a two--tier cabinet there and I am !!Ding to be intrigued to see if the Premier falls into the sa~e trap which,in my oninion,Mr. Davis the Premier of Ontario has fallen into. I may say that I think anybody throughout Canada who is at all involved in cabinets and public life and that sort of thinp.. is watchin1? the Ontario thinp..

Most carefully but ap..ain time will tell and maybe Geor~e McLean will take the pictures for us. We will see. The question I have, Sir, I notice in the salary breakdowns that we have an executive assistant to minister $10,000 per annum. Is there anybody drawing that salary? If so, whom and if there is, 3386 ((

.fone 28, 1972 ·rape l059 JM - 5 who is his boss? J,(R . MOORES: ---- - - The executive ass(stant is Mr. !>on °enney who is executive assistnnt to the Minister of Inter-Governmental Affairs. The lnter ­ GovernMental Affairs 'Department,as the r,eader of the l)pposi tion has said ,is far from a proven droart1uent or a proven effective department . The re could be a great ~any pitfalls but the phtlosophy or theory behind inter-provincial and th" Feclcrl\l--P1·ovtncial liaison is certainl y a valid one.

It wi t1 be the 1 ntention of the Minister without J>oi-tfolio to discuss with both Alherta ancl nnt11i-'lo the problems they have had. and they have hnd many,a s I unclerst:111d it. BS to what their problems have been and to see i f we c a n do it in a hetter manner or if :Cn fact we Rhould do it 11t 11ll. Rut untLJ we have found ou t exactly wlrnt the terms of reference of the cler:1rtment ls or wlll be an<I r..et them established,well there is re2llv ~ 1-'<' must stick to research at this time. Regardin R the two-tier r.overnn<'nt, it is no intentio n of mvRcl f t o have II two-tiE'r ~<>vetnMent.

We ~,ny be hnvtnr different functions at th('. cahinet level hut cert:i-fnlv then• 1R not anv intentlon of h:ivinl? junior or se.nior ministers. There coulcl he ministers with cliffc r en t functio ns as opposccl tc- linr.. aml 11taff dennrtmentR . MR . ROBERTS: Well , we will hl' intrir,uecl nnyway, ~ir . 3387

June 28, 1972 Tape no. 1060 Page 1 - MRW MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Penny - I am sorry, Yes, I think the Premier has said a very great deal there. I have heard of launching ships on unchartered seas but he has certainly got one sailing on unchartered seas now, We will see, They have won the right to be the government of this province, They have the right to be the government, Let them experiment and let them try. The Minister without Portfoilo (St. John's East) is grinning, I grin with him. Mr. Penny, what is he doing? I understood that the gentleman is finishing his bar exams. He has been under articles. What is he doing?

How much has he been paid? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Penny has been working with me for approximately four months. It could be four and a.half months. MR. ROBERTS: The last four months? MR. OTTENHEIMER: He is a special assistant. His salary is $10,000 per year. He is not full time, He is in the buitding or in my office afternoon's. It is basically half time. It is more in the sense of being in the building. half time, In addition he does work which does not require his physical presence in the building. It is not full time. He does do other things as well. He is associated with and he completed hio articling with Mr.

George Clarke, the former Speaker, He is a gentleman certainly well-known to honourable members opposite and to honourable members on this side as well. MR. ROBERTS: They are related. They are uncle and nephew are they not? MR, OTTENHEIMER: That I think could verv well be. MR. ROBERTS: They are some relation. MR. ROWE (W,N.): What is he, three-fifths of the time? MR. ROBERTS: Well George tells me that you can pick your friends but not your relations. . ... , {, MR. OTTENHEIMER: I do not know if there are any other matters, There is salary which I imagine is basically what the honourable members are interested in.

That is $10,000 per year. It is a contractual basis for one year, It is obviously not a civil service post. He does a certain amount of what 3388

June 28, 1972 Tape uo. 1060 Page 2 Mr. Ottenheimer one could say constituency matters. He also assists me in a certain amount of research as well. I may say that I think he is well worth the $10,000, I think if honourable gentlemen opposite know him, they will agree. He is a Newfoundlander. He is a graduate of Memorial University. He is a graduate of the University of Toronto Law School. I certainly think he is well worth the price. MR. ROBERTS: In other words, Mr. Chairman, he has come from an extremely good law school. I think we would all unanimously agree with that.

But let me be clear1 The young gentlemen (I do not think I have ever met him. I certainly would not know him if he were to walk through the door• There would be some fuss on the floor of the House but if he were to sit in the galleries and perhaps he may be sitting there now. I do not know the gentleman at all) from my understanding is that he has been under articles. I am perplexed, Maybe the honourable minister could help me, Sir. He has not been called to the bar that I know of. If there is somethinr, that should not be said and there mny be, I do not want it said. I am not looking for anything like that.

What I want to know is how long has he been - is he full time now? If he is not fu]l time, is he drawing a full time salary? For how long has this been so? Maybe the hon, House Leader could - he looked as if he had something to say. I am not looking for anything that should not be said. There may be things that are not improper but have no place on the floor of this House. I do not want to know about those things. I want to know how much has been paid to him.

The salary rate is $10,000 a year, I do not begrudge a penny of it except I may remind the hon. member for St, Mary's that(I do not think he was in the House at the time) I have the Hansard references to some of his colleagues bemoaning at great length the fact that the previous administration appointed executive assistants. In due course, it will all be trotted out and laid upon - the hon. member for St, John's East smiles, He was not 3389

I June 28, 1972 Tape no.1060 Page 3 Mr. Roberts, one of them. He does not have an executive assistant. He has not fallen into the trap, The others have. They bemoaned it when they were in opposition. The Minister of Fisheries who badly needs some help does not have one either, He will need some help on the next subhead or the next head, whenever we get into Fisheries. His own colleague admittingly paid too much for the Burgeo Fish Plant. It is bad enough when your enemies are attacking you but when your own colleagues do, well perhaps that is the same thing. Mr.

Chairman, would one of the honourable gentleman tell me how long Mr. Penny has been on a salary? Is he full time now? If so, is he practicing law? MR. OTTENHEIMER: He has been on salary since approximately the middle of February. I do not remember the exact date, We informed the administration in late January,so approximately the middle of February. It is approximately four months. He has completed his articles and as a matter of fact his bar examination a couple of days ago. I presume he will be admitted to the bar shortly.

It is not my intention to wish to have an assistant full time in the sence of being here eight hours a day or of precluding him from doing anything else. In other words this is a continuing arrangement whereby it is agreed that he will be paid $10,000 per year for putting in a certain amount of time and fulfilling certain duties. I think it is basically on the fulfillment of duty basis rather than time or place where it is actually done, although every afternoon he is in the building and works next to my office.

It is $10,000 a year for the fulfillment of specific duties with the agreement that he may also (previously he completed his articles) in the future practice law or do whatever he wishes to do. Now the agreement is $10,000 per year for the fulfillment of specific duties. MR. NEARY: You are in trouble. MR. ROWE (W.N.): The honourable minister is on a bit of a sticky-wicket 3390

June 28, 1972 Mr. Rowe (W.N,). Tape no. 1060 Page 4 I would submit. His legal training has been good but not quite good enough,! submit. He needs a little practice before our Supreme Court bench before he gets even more suble with words and more persuasive with words. If the honourable minister's special assistant is doing a part-time job, why does not the honourable minister pay him for a part-time job? The going rate for executive assistants, first time around seems to be about ~10,000 for a full-time job. I know that there are some more experienced ones who are getting $12,000, They are probably well worth it.

I know that when we took on our executive or special assistants the tacit deal was, without having any legal basis at all, that they would start of at $10,000 for a year, If they were kept on they would probably go to $11,000 or $12,000, A deal would be worked out and this sort of thing, The going rate seems to be $10,000, Members of this House of Assembly get $6,600 odd a year to represent the people of the province and here is a young fellow now (I would not know him either) probably very capable, getting $10,000 a year for part time work.

Why, if he is doing a three-fifths time work, does not the honourable minister pay him for that? Why pay him for full time work when he is doing a part time job? The minister can talk all he wants,about the new enlightened idea about employees is not an eight hour day, It is sort of a fee for service rendered or something or specific duties being satisfactorily performed, I would suggest, Sir, as my honourable colleague, friend,the Leader of the Opposition said, the Civil Service is going to be very interested to hear this new concept of payment for specific duties done.

It is a fairly revolutionary move when you are talking about someone who is in the employ of somebody else, not a professional man who does something for a fee, on a fee basis, The honourable minister should perhaps have one of his colleagues recommend that this young man have his salary reduced to 3391

June 28, 1972 Mr. Rowe (W.N.) Tape no. 1060 $5,000, if he is half time or $8,000 if he is doing a little Page 5 more than that. I mean this is most unfair to the other executive assistants who are putting in eight, ten, twelve or fifteen hour days, working full time in other words, MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr, Chairman, just a brief comment on that. Actually, I think I stated that Mr. Penny does other functions than those which are usually associated exclusively with executive assistants.

He does not only do constituency work, He also assists and does quite a bit of research which I have asked him to do, One can well argue and say that he should only be paid $5,000, $7,000 or $8,000, I think really if the opposition want to make an issue out of Mr. Penny's employment and the salary which I as minister recommended and requested and which was finalized, then the solution I think is a resolution to reduce my salary to $1. In other words it may well be, I am the · person responsible, I accept the responsibility, I think we should leave Mr.

Penny out of it and a resolution or an amendment to reduce my salary to $1. I trust that a few gentlemen on this side will help me to get more than $1 a year out of it. I do think that that is the proper course because criticism should not be towards Mr. Penny. It should be toward the minister who authorized and requested his employment and assigns him his duties. If any honourable r;entlemen 3392

June 28, 1972 Tape No. 1061 NC - 1 wishes to put forward an amendment that my salary be reduced to $1.00, then we will have to vote on it, MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Chairman, let me state quite categorically, we have no intention of moving that the hon. gentleman's salary be reduced. We think he is worth every cent he is paid. We are trying to find out what he is doing for it but the Premier has told us that what he is doing mainly is trying to find something to do. We have no quarrel with the Minister of Inter-rovernmental Affairs. Moving to reduce a minister's salry, Sir, is a very :;erious thing.

It is usually done as a matter of feelings of what amount to contempt on the part of the opposition, That is why we did it to the Minister of Education because we felt that he was incompetent, We do not intend to get in any quarrel with the honourable gentleman on his salary. l have no brief from his bank manager but he works, he is entitled to a salnry. Nor do we have any quarrel with Yr, Penney. what we are tryin~ to do is find out what l he is doing and it seems that the position is now as follows: Mr. Penney is being paid $10,000 a year. He is being paid at that rate.

He has been at work since about the middle of February. Well,that is fair enough. He certainly was not retained by the former adminstration and he will not be retained hy the next one but he has heen retained by this one and that is fair enough, Sir, no quarrel. Nor do we quarrel with the $10,000 a year rate, that seems to be the ioing rate for the beginner executive assistant, I think Mr, Lush, and these are not personalities, these are political appointments.

I am interested to hear the minister say they do constituency work, We have had a lon~ parade of his colleagues tabling answers which say that executive assistants on their staff do everything except constituency work. The job of an EA, among others, is to do constituency work, MR. OTTENHEIMER: He assists me in other things, 3393

June 28, 1972 Tape No. 1061 NC - 2 ~1R. ROBERTS: Sure, I am all for it. They are political appointments . Yo1•. may remember, :-tr. Chairman, a number of years ago the Progressive Conservative Party imported for a while a gentleman named 'fr. Henry Best, son of the late Dr.Best, I think it was before the honourable, pentleman I s time but ~Ir. Best came do'vm from Toronto, which is where his home was, and he advised for a day or so and then he went back to the '·fainland,But :-tr. Best was once Executive Assistant to the honourable Sydney Smith when Mr.

Smith was Secretary of State for External Affairs in ~!r, niefendbaker's administration, It will be recalled that '-fr. Srni th, the honourable Mr. Smith, went home one afternoon,on a hot Ottawa day,and lay down and died. He had a heart attack and he died tragicall _v :md suddenly, and that was it. I remember quite vLviclly Henry Best telling me subsequently, that he p.,ot quite a shock.

He lu1d not re1:1lized the auto-bureaucracy was quite as ruthless as it was, as quite effective or efficient in a cold way because that afternoon, while .t:!r._!;est was trying to get hold of Mrs.Smit~ to make all the arrangements that had to be made with this tragic death of this Canadian statesman, he got a little note from the Federal Treasury Board would he mind cleaning out his office that since the minister had died at l :()0 P .~1. , he was off the payroll as of 1:15 P.M.

The only point of that is that executive assistants hold office at pleasure and it is the minister's pleasure, and you know they are political appointments and they can do political work - no quarrel at all. I think it is a very good thing. We had I think four. Indeed there is a gentleman now who assists me in the opposition and I can assure you he does constituency work, He assists me and it could he said 1 need the help and I am grateful for it. What we are gettinir at in Mr.

Penney is the fact that the gentleman is not doing full-time work, he is doing part-time work, And let us realize that this theory of functions is a smoke screen, The 3394 r,·

June 28, 1972 Tape No. 1061 NC - 3 hon. gentleman skated on thin ice. He should have just come out and said, "Mr. Penney is bing paid $10,000 a year for part-time work." MR.OTTENREIMER: That is what I said. MR. ROBERTS: No, that is not what the hon. gentleman said. He went on about fulfilling other functions and we were paying the functions he was fulfilling.

W'ell, I do not know who negotiates with the Civil Service but I can assure the Premier,as head of the administration, that if this philosophy is to be followed, the next time NAPE come in looking for a contract, we are going to have one of the most interesting rounds in negotiation in all history. The Member for St. John's South, not inexperienced in labour relations matters, I am sure,would concur with my statement that it is absolutely nonsensical to say your - the point is Mr. Penney is being paid $10,000 a year for part-time work and I will tell the Committee what he is doing. He is practicing law.

I do not begrudge him, I am sorry, he is not a member of the bar. He will be shortly, but he has been articling, he has bee~ working in a law office, it happens to be the office of Mr. George Clarke, the honourable Mr. Clarke, a former Speaker of this House, the former Member for Carbonear. All I want is for the minister to come out and say that, that they are paying the man $10,000 a year for part-time work. Really I hold a brief on behalf of the other executive assistants who will all be in looking for a raise now, I think it should be recorded and we will let it go at this, We have no quarrel with Mr.

Penney and certainly none with the minister. The minister has not done anything yet that we can quarrel with, w·e are trying to find out what he does do, We will find out in due course. He will tell us and we will have some fun. The point is, Mr, Penney is being paid $10,000 a year for part-time work, at the same time he is, I understand, articling. He will shortly be 3395

June 28, 1972 Tape No. 1061 NC - 4 called to the bar, become one of our breathern at the bar. It will be a little crowded downtown now, Mr. Chairman, a little crowded indeed. Your Honour,not being a learned man,would not understand but the gentleman sitting to Your Honour's right, being a very learned man, would understand as would the House Leader, our own House Leader, and the gentleman from St. John's South and the gentleman from Placentia East, all of them are very learned. AN HON.MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: The member for Burgeo is learned? I would not say that. Mr.

Chairman, if the hon. gentleman from Burgeo thinks he is learned, he may be gallant, I am not sure if he is gallant or not but there is a tradition in the House, I do not know where it came from but I suppose it is like all these traditions, but a learned member, for the benefit of the hon. gentleman,is a man who has been trained in the law. The hon. member for St. Mary's is at least half-learned and shortly will be full-learned I hope or whole-learned or wholly.leamied, whatever the devil it is. The point is, Mr.

Penney is practicing law or about to enter into the practice of law and at the same time is being paid $10,000 , a year, Having made the point let us get on with us, unless somebody wants to say something else. We are going to be here the night anyway. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, may I ask who was called to order? Was it I?. Your Honour said order and I asked a question; was I out of order? MR. CHAIRMAN: I did hear a lot of noise. MR. ROBERTS: Well I cannot help what His Hbnour hears.Was I out of order? I mean I am genuinely anxious to know. MR .

CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. gentleman heard more than one person speaking at the same time. MR. ROBERTS: I just want the point to be clear. and I mean I want to be sure I am in order. His Honour called order 3396 ,.

June 28. 1972 Tape No. 1061 NC - 5 MR. CHAIIUIAN: The items were being called, MR. ROBERTS: Very rapidly, Your Honour might perhaps. ,. MR. CHAIRMAN: There were roars from either side of the House, this is why order was called. I was not referring to anybody in particular. MR. ROBERTS: Well then before the item passes Your Honour, let me ask the question in a non-roar, I did it in a non-roar way but the roar apparently was over there - MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you have a question to ask? MR. ROBERTS: Do I have a question to ask? It is funny you should ask that, Sir. Yes, I do have a question to ask. Thank you, Sir.

The $2,000 motor car allowance, is that for the two ministers without portfolio? AN HON. MEMBER: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: Okay, now that I hRve the answer, fine. Can we go on with it, Mr. Chairman, not quite so quickly please. MR. CHAIRMAN: I may continue now. Gn motion total subhead 304, carried. On motion, Block Provision, Canada Pension Plan, carried. On motion, Block Provision, Unemployment Insurance, carried. On motion, total Executive Council, carried. MR. CHEESEMAN: Mr.

Chairman, introducinii; the estimates for Fisheries for the current year, there are a few comments which I would like to make' covering the broad field of the department and some of the problems and some of the areas which are receivinJ:\ attention. I think,however,I would like to make a comment first in connection with an :I.tern which will come up, By request and by agreement, I believe with the House, the question of Burgeo was moved from the Economic Development estimates for purpose of discussion to the Department of Fisheries and will therefore be discussed under this subhead. 3397

June 28, 1972 Tape No. 1061 NC - 6 subhead. ~ow I want to make it abundantly clear that the reason for that,stated at the time,was that tlte Premier wished to make comment on this subject and I believe was 3398

June 28, 1972 Tape 1062 was not in the House at the time that the Economic Development estimates were introduced. However, least there should be any feeling on the part of anyone that by makinp.: this comment th a t I did not support Rurgeo Fish Industries purchased by p.overnment 1 on the basis of the information available to me and the statements already made under the Department of Economic Development,! wish to say that as far as I am concerned I do wholeheartedly supnort the action taken by the ~overnment at that time.

Now one other comment I feel that also I ,muln like to make is that there was reference this afternoon,anc" I hope that tam in order in co11111!entinp. on this under this particular 1401. to the inaccessibility of ministers and/or departments and/or telephones listed or unlisted as the case may be. In connection with the Department of Fisheries,! believe it is a reasonable statement to make that in as far as time will permit and mechanical devices and anything of that nature or visits from constituents all over the island,the Department of Fisheries has an open door, I have two listed telephone numbers.

So I trust that that clears the sitnation 1 in as far as the Department of Fisheries is concerned. I thought I would take an opportunity to clarify this. Now, Mr. Chairman, - ~m. ROBERTS i Mr. Chairman, I think we should have a ouick count of the Hou~e please. I will stay hut there are one, two, three - No, t do not have to stay either. I did not mean to ruin the Premier's cigarette but I thought with the minister makinp.: a statement his own colleagues would want to hear it. MR. CHEESEMAN: All of the members of the House are so well informed -- -----·• ·---- --~-- perhans there was no necessity.. However, Mr.

Chairman, to carry on with the point when the count was called. I would like to say in 3399 JM - 1

June 2R, 1972 Tape Hlfi2 Jt,-1 - 2 reference to a coJllffient that was made perhaps in jest, perhaps seriously, l do not know abnnt the lack of an executive assistant in this department, that this is but one of a number of nroblems in terms of personnel.

I wou1<1 Jike at this point to say also th1Jt lam here this nfternoon without benefit of a deputy Minister or other advisers not becat1se of the fact that T feel so competent or knowled)1:eable in the affairs of the Department of Fisherjes in the short time that I have heen in th;at portfolio but rather hecause of a lack nf striff in thnt <1epartment at the nresent time. The deputv minister is in Ralifax attendin r a meetln~ on herrinl? which is of major il'lnortance tn this nrovince. /\ me!'lher of the To'isheries Development Authority, 'fr.

Pussell, is torlav in Chica.('.o in my stead,where there is a rlell'.onstration on the future use and possibilities of the caplin inclustry which I feel is of major importance again to this province. Unfortunat elv 'fr. Prince,as will he known to most members o~ the !louse. :mother meriber of the authority, suffered a very severe heart attack som,e weeks fl/?O and is recovet in/? satisfactorily now but he had a lonr- stretch in intensive ca.re and it looks as thoul?h he will he off for some ti~e vet .

So I woulcl crave the indulgence of the House,if there are detail.eel riuestinns of which I do not have the iMmediate answers that this will he 11nrlerstoorl by T"lembers anrl that I ,,rill in the course of events endeavour to obtain the information which has been sought. lfow, Mr. Chairman, lookinr specifically at the Department of Fisheries an<1 under 1401, the fishery in the ~rovince of Newfoundland has many problems. Through recorded history, I believe, it is reasonable to say that the industry itself in one forn or another has gone from crisis to crisis.

We have seen market~ collapse. l•Te have seen shortages of fish. We h11ve seen weather conrlitions which virtually prohibit fishing anrl these continue to occur from time to time and undoubtedly will into the future. (:

June 28, 1972 '!'ape 1062 I would also like to state that the future of the fisheries of Newfoundland,as I see it from the head of this department, is verv closely linked to the Federal Government and Ottawa. This in terms of both the available money, hecause as all members of this House anc'! many people throughout the province will realize the nroper development of the fisheries will require tremendous innut of canital and I believe that we must work very closely with Ottawa if we are in fact to make the fisheries what they should be in this country or in this province.

Again in terms of Ottawa,we are involved with regulations which are Federal regulatiom; and to a rlegree determine the course which we must pursue. There are too,within the fisheries,social problems for. I believe, !4-r. Chairman, that it is almost impossible to divorce the one from the other. The fisheries of ~ewfoundland .JM - 3 are scattered throup;hout as Many communities as are inhabited by people. We saw the influence of the resettlement nrogramme as it affected the industry.

Many people who were move.cl from viable communities, at le.ast viable communities in terms of the people them­ selves, where the fishery had been carried on for yearR, were in some instances Moved into areas where they coulc! no longf'r pursue this vocation and as a result some verv sad circumstances have occurred. There is also a trem~ndous ch;i.nrinr scene in the fishery. Traditibnally in Newfoun,Hand down throu~h the years and in fact up until recent times we were altnoAt totallv salt and pickled fish oriented .

However there is a changing scene in this connection and we are seeinp; the introduction of more and more fresh fish handling, shipments, transfers and thjs tyne of thin~ 1 and this in turn is causin~ problems in the communities. T say prohlems in this sense that years ago when the salt fish production was the predominent factor you literally had a cottage industry which includeri the head of the household and his 3401

June 28, 1972 Tape 1062 Jt,I - 4 family as a un i t and t he spli tinv,, salt int ancl curin P, of fish, the c'!ryinn of Hsh involvecl literal] y evervonc in the fal'lily and most people in the community.

Huwever, when a man itoes out todav in many of these a reas he is nothin r. more than a catcher of fish who bdnr.s his f i sh then to a transfer centre or landinr, area where the fish is transfer red either by tr uck or boat ancl taken away ,result i ng in lac~ of involve ment in others i n the collllltunitv in th is particular in<'ustry . tt is int e r estin J? to not e in this connectjon thnt the. problems as t sec them in the communities are multipliecJ , through this facto r, in the urba n centxes or t he more urban cen tres of St.

John's, Grancl Fa) 1 s , Cor ner BrC1ok and perha1,s other areas such as llotwood, l\onavi s t a, and m,mv other ,,i.reas of this nat ure you will find in todav's 3102 @,.

June 28, !Cl72 Tape 1063 PK - 1 world that men and women, husband and wife team are both working to huy houses, to buy televisions or motor cars or the other amenities of this life and the opportunities in these urban centres is -there for these people to do that. But in the fishing connnunity what you have literally are the catchers of fish and that is where the thing stops.

Now I would venture to say if you asked many husband and wife teams or family heads in the urban centres if they could get by with just one of them working or own their own homes or motor car or this type of thin~, I would venture to say that many of them would say, "no, it would be impossible!' So this type of problem is evident I believe in our rural communities.

The fishery is, of course, divided into a number of sections, Cur offshore fishery has in recent times come under very close scrutiny in terms of the resource facility. ~s will be well known now to I am sure all members of the House,quota systems will be introduced,which will afford a certain amount of protection which had not been either necessary in the more distant past or implemented in the more recent past. However, we seemed to have gotten over that at this point.

I would like to say in connection with this that it seems to me somewhat of an oddity that in a province where fishing is the mainstay of our economy, in terms of the number of people employed, for that matter the value, that it would have taken the introduction of a citizens group and I refer of course to SOFA. I would like to pay tribute to the work that they had done, the awareness that they brought about in connection with some of the dangers facing the fishing industry, but surely it is a bit of a condemnation on the province and the industry as a whole that this should have been necessary.

Whilst they have done a tremendous job, I think personally 3403

June 28, 1972 Tape 1063 PK - 2 MR. CHEESEMAN: that it is not an area that we should look to for the continued future of our fisheries,rather that the government and the people of the country and the industry should be more involved, Now the slackening of fish or the availability of fish has necessitated to, ,a new look at deep sea fishing methods. I mention this deep sea fishing methods as hut one segment of the fishery, because the near bank and the inshore fishery too are just as important.

But dealing with this one item,it would appear that there will be in the immediate future a need for a considerable increase in our trawler fleet and this both in terms of replacement of older trawlers and the hiring of new ones. It has brought in turn a tremendous financial burden on a number of fish companies which in most cases have been thrown back on the government.

You will note that there is an item in the estimates dealing with this, So perhaps this is enough said at this point, except to say that even since the compilation of the estimates there was a change in the situation bought about by the quota systems where now,more than eve~ it is going to be of major importance for Newfoundland to get out and get its share of the fish in the areas where the quotas have been established, It is interesting to note here, I would like to make this comment that according to the history books Newfoundland was blessed by the fact that when people arrived here from the other side they weiRhted baskets down with rocks and hauled them up and found them full of fish and this was considered to be a wonderful thing.

No doubt in its time it was. I often, however, think in more recent times that it may have been not so much of a blessing because we did not 1 down through the years,have the necessity to develop the offshore expertise which many countries of the world have developed, This question is been continuously asked, Mr. Chairman, I see it in the press, I hear it on radio and T,V. interviews and this type of 34-04

June 28, 1972 Tape 1063 PK - 3 MR. CHEESEMAN: thing. "How is that the Russians or the Poles or the Czechoslovakians or any East Germans, you name them, can come all the way across the Atlantic and catch fish while we do not seem to be able to do it in Newfoundland." Of course, it is not true to say we cannot do it in Newfoundland, but merely the necessity down through the years was not there to develop the same type of expertise in offshore fishing.

With them it was a question of necessity, with us,in season the good Lord blessed us T suppose and sent the fish to our shores were we could reap a harvest which at least would sustain us. B ut I believe there is evidence of the fact now that we were ill-equipped really to take full advantage of the offshore resource. Now in terms of what I would refer to as the near-bank fishery, the near offshore fishery, there is here I believe also a need to develop an expertise and a type of boat to fish these waters.

The generally accepted situation in the past would be that you had distant trawlers and you had inshore fishery. But, I believe, Mr. Chairman, that it has been evident during recent years that there is what I would refer to as another area "green belt" of fish lying somewhere between this true inshore fishery and the offshore fishery and that we must also take advantage of this. We have seen some evidence of the results of this type of fishing by virtue of our fleet of longliners, which have been built up over recent years.

The longliners are taking advantage of this resource area. but I believe that even more expertise, even more modern types of boats and larger boats and multi-purpose gear boats will be needed in the future. Our longliners, so-called,are a bit of a misnomer at the present time because really most of our longliners are gill-net fishers rather than longliners in the true sense of the word. The other

section of the fishery,that is the true inshore fishery which is the small boat fishery, the trap skiff, the motor dory, the cod trap and to a lesser degree some trawl line and gill net is on a very much smaller bases than the offshore. There must also

June 28, 1972 Tape 1063 PK - 4 MR. CHEESEMAN: be an area where we have to develop the greatest expertise possible and,in my opinion, will in the coming years require a new look at the type of boat, the type of engine, a different approach perhaps to bounty systems and this type of thing. But there is a place 1despite what has been said by a number of people knowledgeable in the industry, there is very definitely a role for the inshore fishery and the inshore fishermen and a very important one.

I suggest it is the inshore fishermen who very often makes the difference between the success or the failure of the modern fish plants. Now, Mr. Chairman, I believe too that it is absolutely essential within the context of this whole total fishery that the true value of the fishery and the true value of the fisherman himself, in terms of the economy of Newfoundland,must be p0rtrayed. I believe it is a subject that has been neglected over the years.

I am saddened,as I, am sure many memhers in this House and as I am sure many thinking people all over this province are, at the image that is sometimes painted of our fishermen. I believe, Mr. Chairman, this is very unfair. I suggest to this House today that were it not for the fishermen, the small boat fishermen, the inshore fishermen who preservered in the face of all the problems that there would not be a House today in Newfoundland. In fact, there might very well not be a Province of Newfoundland.

I believe personally and I am sure many of you feel that it is long overdue the time when we should pay the proper tribute to our fishennen and the industry and support them in every way possible. Now, Mr. Chairman, another area of problem that I see within the fishery is a very heavy dependence on the United States market. I suppose that in terms of our ground fish and in fact almost all species other than perhaps our herring, macker~l, that ninety-eight percent perhaps of our total exports goes to the United States narket.

We should be very happy about the fact that we have this market and the United States has certainly provided us with great earnings in terms 3t06

.June 28 . 1972 Tape 1063 PK - 5 MR, CHEESEMAN: of our fish exports. At the same time I believe that we. should not have such a dependency on that market and I think that every effort should be made in t_he forese .eable future, in the near future at that,to develop markets on the Canadian Mainland from coast to coast and in Europe,where that is possible.

I believe that we missed a tremendous op.portunity shortly after coming into Confederation, when Newfoundland was something new, when 'iie had something to our name that was then not a Newfie joke, When Newfoundland came into Confederation it was a very revered name. It brought with it great contributions to this nation of ours. I believe that we should have been farsighted enough at that 3407

June 28, 1972 Tape no. 1064 Page 1 - MRW time to take advantage of the tremendous advantage that we have in merely saying the word Newfoundland, I believe that had we had a policy within the first two or three years after entry into Confederation, we would have found a ready acceptance for our products right across this entire country. I believe again that even at this late date we should turn and take a very serious look at the Canadian market, In the United States things tend to go up and down.

They fluctuate at a much greater rate than does, I suppose, Canada as a whole and certainly Newfoundland in particular, It is possible, but we hope that it will not happen, Markets have been reasonably stable in recent times.

Prices have been reasonably good, Bearing in m_ind my opening comments about the fact that the fishery seems to be, down through the years,frought with crisis, I believe that we should take the necessary insurance now to make sure that we protect ourselves against this possibility, Tied closely to that, Mr, Chairman, I believe is an area that we should take greater advantage of and that is the shipment from Newfoundland of fresh haddock, Again you very often hear the comment made that it seems that every other fish plant or every other area of Canada seems to be able to pay higher prices to its workers or to the fishermen than does Newfoundland, I suggest to you that in many cases this is brought about by the fact that in many of these other areas any thing from twenty to thirty per cent of the production of fish from these areas finds its way on to the fresh market and at very pre~ium prices, I have personally looked at the situation of fresh fish shipments to the Canadian Mainland markets and the possibilities of the United States markets in recent years and I am satisfied that if properly tackled this holds great opportunity for our fishing industry in Newfoundland, Now, Mr, Chairman, in terms of prublems of the fisherman, himself, I think one of the greatest area rs of c(,ncern in the province today must be some form of protectio~ for the inshore fishermen's gear, protection against storm damage, protection against loss or destruction by other means and the replacement, Now in recent years our predecessors have chosen to go the 3408 ~.

June 28, 1972 Tape no, 1064 Page 2 route of using a token vote of $100 and at the appropriate time they have paid a portion at any rate of the losses inflected through what was loosely called storm damage. However, as I indicated, there are problems beyond the storm damage;loss of gear by trawlers in unprotected waters and this type of thing also comes into the picture. The real problem, Mr. Chairman, is the inequity of the system,as I see it,that has been pursued in recent times. That is that first of all you must have declared a near disaster or it must have been a major storm which caused the loss of gear. Iherefore 1 payment now becomes applicable to either a bay, a

section of the province or to a confined group of fishermen whilst others,throughout other areas of the country, because there was not a storm on the June 27, but who loss gear nevertheless, were excluded, I believe this is manifestly unfair, Mr. Chairman.

We have sought and I might say now at this time 1 without success at this point,to try and persuade Ottawa to participate with the province and with the fishermen,to introduce some form of insurance for inshore fishermen, a participatory insurance, I might add in this connection that there is an error in our estimates in terminology,where it does in fact say "Inshore Gear Replacement Insuranc~ 'under 1413. That, of course, is not operative in that there is not at this point in time an insurance policy. There is a vote in there of $200,000.

I had hoped originally when we discussed these estim~tes that that would in fact represent perhaps the province's contribution and that Ottawa would have seen fit to go along with it. Now I realize, Mr. Chairman, that there are many, many problems in connection with the introduction of an insurance programme, fishermen's gear, inshore gear. I realize that the system is open to abuse. There are all sorts of problems.

Nevertheless, I believe that it is of such a great degree of importance to so many of our people that we must persevere and we must pursue this and we must run it down to the bitter en'd to try and find the best possible system that we can for the benefit of our inshore fisherman and his protection. 3409

June 28, 1972 Tape no, 1064 Page 3 I believe too, Mr, Chairman, that there is a real need at this point in time to take a good, strong look at what we are doing in terms of fish reduction. A number of our species of fish are being today caught in great quantities and put through processes which leave very little earnings really in terms of onshore labour. It is mostly a catching effort. It is true that the earnings of the individuals on these boats are high. That in itself is a good thing but I think we must be mindful of the problems that we could face in depleting our resources.

We have seen in recent times a very substantial decrease in the catch of herring,for instance,on the south coast of Newfoundland and the south west coast, all along the entire south west coast, I believe we must guard against this, The province must be very much aware of the problems that could exist in this connection, I believe too, Mr, Chairman, that there is a tremendous need for an awareness all over the province of the job opportunities which exist in the fisheries.

Only today and for the past two weeks I suppose there are add~ in the papers looking for fish cutters and, of course, fish cutters in themselves produce related jobs, In many areas of the country, I do not believe that people are fully aware of these opportunities and even if they are, there is another related problem which comes into the picture and that is the lack of a housing problem or a housing programme to go hand in hand with the demand or the need for additional labour in this industry. I feel that under this heading, Mr.

Chairman, we in the Department of Fisheries and hopefully 1 in cooperation with the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing or specifically Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, need to take a very close look at where we are going in this connection. I believe too, Mr. Chairman, that there is a great need and in fact the progratmne is already underway and I hope will be pursued .tomorrow, next day and through for the next 3410

June 28, 1972 Tape no. 1064 Page 4 twenty years or until such time as we have upgraded the facilities which exist around this province. Here again we run into the situation that I described in my opening remarks where we crossed the field with Ottawa. We have instances in Newfoundland where the federal government have built connnunity stages on land owned by the provincial government and in areas sometimes which were not acceptable to the fishermen or in communities which were on the way out or that needed different facilities than those built.

By the same token, the provincial government have embarked from time to time on programmes which did not appear to have the proper follow through. I quote an example of this, last year's programme of so-called fish holding units, It was the impression of most of the people in the areas where these so-called fish holding units were placed that this would be a facility placed there by the government. It would be a combination of cold storage, bait and cool rooms for the baited trawl holdings. In fact, Mr. Chairman, there was no on-going programme beyond the actual building of these fish holding units.

This today is causing concern to fishermen all over this island. It is a problem with which we are wrestling at the moment. Hopefully, as a result of our approach to Ottawa and some proposals that we have laid before them in recent weeks, there will be a total correlation of the effort made on the part of both the federal government 3{11

June 28, 1972, Tape 1065, Page 1 -- apb and the provincial Government in terms of the bait-holding units, so­ called, these fish-holdinp, bait-holding units. The community stages, wharves and breakwaters, which get us into yet another area of federal concern: I know it is very frustrating for fishermen and for that matter for honourable members of this House,from time to time, when atternptinp. to ret information from us, or help from us or from the Department of fisheries, to be told that, "I am sorry, that is not our area we have nothing to do with wharves.

I am sorry, that is not our area, we have nothing to do with breakwaters." This must he frustratinp. I experienced the same thing myself when my association was with industry,when tryinp to get information from the government department.

I can now more readily understand the problem and I believe it is an area that must be sorted in the immediate future and that the total effort of the Federal and Provincial Government Departments, whatsoever department that may be, must be correlated to the greatest benefits so that we are moving in the same direction, so that we are in fact providing the facilities in the communities that our fishermen require. I said before and I say again, Mr. Chairman, that I am finnly convinced of the viability of many of our small communities around this country.

It is the way of life, Perhapsthere are some in the province and even more further afield, who do not appreciate this type of life, but to many of our fisherfolk, to many of our inhabitants of the outports, they, }!r. Chairman, would not wish to have it any other way. I do not believe that anybody or any group has the right to play God with the lives of those people. I believe they ought to be permitted to stay where they wish to stay, pursue the type of life that they wish to pursue and I believe this government and in fact any govenrment has an obligation to give those people every possible support. Mr.

Chairman, I would like to turn for a moment to new resource development. I believe that the records show over the years that there has been a continuous hammering away by a few individuals on the 3412 c·

June 28, 1972, Tape 1065, Page 2 -- apb possibility of caplin resources in our waters, ~. ROBE_RTS :_ A few or one? !"'_R_.___f_!l_!:_E_S~~~ I say there have been a few. ~:__!lOBE_RTS: One especially. MR. CHEESEMAN: One company perhaps. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Bursey is the gentleman who is the active one. MR. CHEESEMAN: Mr. Bursey has been pursuing an idea for a number of years, but I mean there have been others from time •to time who also have been involved. MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) !:!!l-_~HEES~-~ Yes, this is what I was about to say.

A short time ago it came to my attention that the Norwegians and the Icelanders in particular were looking very seriously at the caplin resource of the North Atlantic, or more specifically perhaps the Northwest Atlantic, because that would take us into an area closer to our province. It was with some concern that I learned of this, Immediately I started to make an investigation as to what exactly was going on, I received cooperation from the countries. or the representatives of the countries to whom I talked.

They informed me of exactly what they were doing and the possibilities which they felt this resource have, because many people, Mr. Chairman, feel that the caplin is perhaps the next step along from the herring. You go back a few years and there was supposedly an unlimited supply of herring i~ the ocean. Re.cent years have proved that this is not necessarily so, that this resource can in fact be depleted and 1 depleted very rapidly without the proper controls. My concern, Mr. Chairman, would be that we would now turn on to caplin and that the same thing would happen.

The last thing that I personally would want to see is the caplin resource of the Northwest Atlantic go into meal. I believe that caplin, if it has a food potential in terms of a consumer product, that we most certainly should take advantage of it. To this end, as a result of an appraoch made by others in the caplin industry 3413

June 28. 1972, Tape 1065, Page 3 -- apb as well as a representation by the company to whom the Leader of the Opposition referred, the total effort resulted in, and I made reference to the fact earlier that Mr. Russell was presently in Chicago, There is at this very time I would think, a demonstration taking place which is in fact introducing the caplin to the American market, in the hope that this particular species will find a readily available market as a fresh and fresh-frozen commoditv as well as further examining the potential of the fish as a canning item. }'r.

Chairman, I also believe, and this government is of course on record as saying,one of its aims, priority aims,is to see what can be done about and to bring about as auickly as possible a dollar added value to the products which we produce in this country. In other words, to get closer to the consumable product. I believe that no stone should be left unturned in this connection. There have already been discussions with industry along these lines. I am glad to say that they have taken what we have sugp:ested and what we have asked them to look at and examine toward this end,seriously.

I believe and I hope that in the near future we will see in fact an increased value in the products of the sea being exported fro~ Newfoundland. Certainly, as far as the Department of ~isheries is concerned, we will do anythinp. that we possibly can to heln in this connection. I mentioned earlier here the importance of the fishery and the fishermen to the econornv of this province, and I would like to 1ust wind up these few remarks bv saving tha½ as of today, the value of the fishing industry to }lewfoundland in terms of .1obs can be measured in somethinr in the order of 20.000 iohs_ 20,000 _jobs, }•r.

Chairman, in the Province of Newfoundland is a very, very considerable contribution to the economy of this island. It is said by the experts that you can reasonably take a ratio of two-to-one, in fact some say three-to-one jobs which are supported hy other 1obs. If this is so and in our fish plants and in our direct c;,tchinp.. ir. our trawlers and our inshore fishery, in other words. the total manpower or jobs involved in the fishin~ lndustry,if vou 341-1

June 28, 1972, Tape 1065, Pap.e 4 -- apb would like to take it that way, but moving outside the plant gates or the fishing stage or the processing area, then if we use the ratio of two-to-one, we can readily see that the fishing industry in Newfoundland supports another 40,000 jobs. That is 60,000 jobs, Jl'r. Chairman. We hear about great investments in industry and the .1obs that will be cre