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June 5, 1978

31st Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

DEATH OF CARL E. BRANNAN

RADIOACTIVE WASTE

COMMITTEE MEETINGS

ORAL QUESTIONS

RADIOACTIVE WASTE

MEAT PACKING DISPUTE

RADIOACTIVE WASTE

APPRENTICESHIP PROGRAM

RADIOACTIVE WASTE

WOMEN’S HEALTH SERVICES

PRAXIS INVESTIGATION

FOOD LAND PRESERVATION

TOURISM

OIL SPILL

SERVICES FOR THE PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

INCO SAFETY COMPLAINT

FRENCH-LANGUAGE SERVICES

PETITION

ENERGY REPORT

REPORTS

RADIOACTIVE WASTE

ORDERS OF THE DAY

ESTIMATES, MINISTRY OF NORTHERN AFFAIRS (CONCLUDED)

STANDING MEMBERS’ SERVICES COMMITTEE (CONTINUED)

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE OMBUDSMAN

The House met at 2 p.m.

Prayers.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

DEATH OF CARL E. BRANNAN

Hon. Mr. Welch: I know that members of the Legislature will join with me in expressions of sympathy on the sudden death of Carl E. Brannan.

In 1961, Mr. Brannan joined the staff of the Treasury Board of Ontario as assistant secretary and in 1963 was promoted to full secretary. In May 1971, he was appointed to the position of secretary of the cabinet. In this capacity, he also served as chairman of the committee of advisers to the policy and priorities board of cabinet.

On November 26, 1973, Mr. Brannan was appointed as Deputy Solicitor General and in May 1974 he was named Deputy Provincial Secretary for Justice. He was a continuing member of the committee of advisers to the policy and priorities board and was a member of the advisory committees to the Premier (Mr. Davis) on senior public service appointments and compensation.

I am sure we would all want members of the family to note our most sincere regret at this particular time.

RADIOACTIVE WASTE

Hon. Mr. Baetz: Members will recall that on May 23 I announced my intention to advise the House on progress being made with respect to the ultimate disposal of radioactive waste. At that time, I expressed the hope that this would be done jointly with the federal Ministry for Energy, Mines and Resources since this is a matter which is the primary responsibility of the federal government and involves establishment of a national policy.

I am, therefore, pleased we are able to make this statement jointly with my federal counterpart today. My comments this afternoon are the result of discussions among my ministry, the federal Department of Energy, Mines and Resources, Ontario Hydro and Atomic Energy of Canada Limited over the past several years.

The Ontario and federal governments and their respective agencies feel it is important to establish this policy at this time because of the growing public recognition that vigorous efforts should be made immediately to develop a permanent, safe disposal system for radioactive waste materials. This is all the more essential in view of the increasing importance and use of nuclear generating stations in Canada and particularly in Ontario. Such a permanent disposal system is important, irrespective of what decisions are taken in the near or distant future about the growth and use of nuclear power in Ontario.

We have in operation or under construction in this province more than 13,000 megawatts of nuclear power. A safe, satisfactory, and rational solution to the long-term disposal of the waste from these stations must be developed within the next several years.

The main elements of the joint program on radioactive waste management being announced today by myself and my federal counterpart, the Honourable Alastair Gillespie, are as follows: The federal and Ontario governments will work together on the first phase of a long-term program to assure the safe and permanent disposal of radioactive waste from nuclear power reactors.

The immobilization research and development will be performed in the laboratories of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited. It will cover theoretical and experimental studies for treating the residues from the reactor fuel cycle so as to produce stable insoluble products for eventual disposal in underground repositories.

The purpose of the disposal research and development is to verify that permanent disposal in a deep underground repository in intrusive igneous rock is a safe, secure and desirable method of disposing of radioactive waste. This will involve geological field parties collecting surface samples and examining other surface features in various parts of the province to determine the full range of chemical and physical properties of rock formations expected to be suitable for a waste disposal facility.

The two governments have agreed that field work should commence in Ontario in 1978. To develop appropriate test equipment procedures and information on a variety of rock types, experimental drilling will be conducted this year at the laboratories of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited. Further drilling of this type at mutually agreed to sites to depths of about 1,000 metres will be carried out at six to 10 other locations during the years 1979 and 1980.

The research and development studies are directed towards an evaluation of a series of barriers to prevent the release of radioactivity to the environment. An analysis will be made of their effectiveness, based upon information derived from the immobilization research and development and the geological studies described above. This information will be used to classify the 1,500 or more potentially suitable geological formations which are known to exist in Ontario.

This joint undertaking is not to be construed as a Canadian position on the question of the reprocessing of irradiated fuel. Canada’s position in respect of its fuel cycle development program will be reviewed following the completion of the international nuclear fuel cycle evaluation now under way.

The success of this program will depend on continuous close co-operation and consultation between the two governments and their agencies. Accordingly, there will be full consultation and prior agreement at each step of the process. This will be the responsibility of a co-ordination committee with an AECL chairman and representatives from Ontario Hydro, the Ontario Ministry of Energy and the federal Department of Energy, Mines and Resources. Close co-operation and consultation will be maintained with the communities involved at all stages of the program.

While AECL will take the lead, the government of Ontario, including Ontario Hydro, will provide support as appropriate in the public information activities.

A further agreement on a program leading to the selection and acquisition of a site and the subsequent demonstration of geological waste disposal will be concluded between the two governments as quickly as possible.

The tentative

schedule being used for planning purposes is: 1978-80, geological survey work, experimental drilling and accelerated research and development; 1981-83, site selection for demonstration repository; 1983, site acquisition; 1985-2000, disposal demonstration; 2000 and beyond, full-scale facilities operational.

The program announced by the two ministers is a further step towards a national plan to deal with nuclear wastes as recommended by Dr. Hare.

In this long-term program, public health and environmental protection will be paramount. The Atomic Energy Control Board will be responsible for licensing the proposed facility. In so doing, the board will work closely with the appropriate federal and Ontario departments, ministries and agencies.

That concludes the main elements of the joint statement. In

summary, I would like very briefly to emphasize the following points:

1. Ontario is pleased that the federal government is making a rational, well-thought-out start to the permanent safe disposal of radioactive materials.

Mr. Foulds: You can’t guarantee that.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: 2. Prime responsibility for the program lies with the federal government. It assumed jurisdiction under the Atomic Energy Control Act in 1946 and continues to have prime responsibility.

3. Ontario has a vital interest in the success of this program, because 27 per cent of Ontario’s electricity in 1977 was being produced from nuclear plants. Ontario is supporting this federal initiative.

Mr. Foulds: Did you ever think of a different kind of program?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: 4. The government of Ontario has insisted that it be consulted at each step and that its prior approval be obtained for all activities leading to a site in Ontario. We want to avoid past unfortunate experiences such as occurred in Madoc and Ignace, when AECL did not advise properly or consult with the communities in advance of launching its programs.

5. The government of Ontario has made no commitment to wastes from other provinces being deposited in Ontario or to reprocessing.

6. It is a multi-year program. No irrevocable decisions have or will be made without full public discussion. The need for this program is based on the long-range needs of Ontario’s present nuclear program, not on any expansion.

7. There will be no selection of a site for at least two years. Work in the meantime will simply be rock squeezing, involving geological survey work, experimental drilling and accelerated research and development.

COMMITTEE MEETINGS

Hon. Mr. Welch: Mr. Speaker, apparently there has been some confusion in so far as the meetings of the standing general government committee are concerned as a result of Friday’s order paper. Perhaps, for purposes of clarification, we should indicate that it’s my understanding that the standing general government committee will meet not in camera -- and I underline, “not in camera” -- on Wednesday, June 7, starting at 10 a.m. and going into the evening, again on June 12 for the evening, and on June 14, starting at 10 a.m. No meetings of this committee are being held in camera, as announced.

ORAL QUESTIONS

RADIOACTIVE WASTE

Mr. Nixon: Mr. Speaker, I’d like to direct a question to the Minister of Energy, further to his statement. Could he tell the House what the capacity for the retention of used fuel is in our present facilities and, in that connection, whether the timetable that is more or less tacitly involved in this statement is rapid enough for the needs of our expanding atomic facility here in Ontario, since the first drilling will not take place for two years?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: Mr. Speaker, the time framework is really from now until the year 2000, which is not all that long -- the year 2000 seems like an eternity away; it’s 22 years away --

Mr. Peterson: We will be here.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: -- but the time framework has been based on the knowledge that we have a good deal more time to store our waste fuel in the bays at the generating plants. We call it interim storage, but scientists tell us it could be stored there for an indefinite period of time. We obviously don’t want to accept that fact, but certainly it can be stored where it is now for well beyond the year 2000.

[2:15]

We have, in other words, room to expand in the highly, highly unlikely event that the concept we are trying to verify to this program should prove unworkable. I want to stress that this is really more than a hypothesis that we are working on. Scientists are calling it “verifying a concept” that has been developed, that has been looked at and studied here in Canada and in other countries with similar situations.

Mr. Nixon: Supplementary: I am concerned that the drilling that is going to take place on an experimental basis at the laboratories of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited is going to be accompanied by indepth work in six to 10 locations. Can the minister indicate where those locations might be, since it appears on page five -- and I quote from his statement -- “The government of Ontario will provide support as appropriate in the public information activities”? Where is the drilling going to take place?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: It is at this point impossible to say where the six or eight or 10 sites of intensive drilling will take place. As far as we have indicated in the statement here and in covering materials, there are at the present time about 1,600 possible locations that are known to contain the kind of igneous rock that might be suitable for this purpose. Over the next three years they will begin to reduce the potential number of sites to a point of six to 10 and at that time certainly a good deal of work with the communities as well as with the geological rock formation will take place.

In other words, the decision as to where to drill in the final six to 10 communities will not only be a scientific and geological decision, it will also be a social and economic decision.

Mr. Cassidy: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Do I understand from the minister’s statement that as far as the federal and provincial governments are concerned, it is unlikely that we will know that there can be safe and permanent disposal of radioactive waste underground until around about the year 2000, that is about 22 years from now? If that is the case, can I ask the minister on what basis is Ontario Hydro going forward with further commitments to nuclear power stations without knowing whether or not safe, permanent disposal is a possibility?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: As I tried to indicate in response to an earlier question, this is the possibility of deep storage in a geological foundation. It is really more than a hypothesis, more than a hope or a wish or an assumption of the kind that scientists often take in any kind of experiment.

Mr. Warner: Is it guaranteed?

Hon. Me, Baetz: This is what the scientists call “the concept verification.” It is a concept that has been proven to be sound, in their minds at least.

Mr. Warner: It is not guaranteed.

Ms. Gigantes: Proven by whom?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: We are taking deliberate steps, one by one, over this time period to absolutely verify the concept. I suppose that if we were in a panic situation, which certainly we are not, we might say that we wished to reduce the time frame to two or three years --

Mr. Warner: As good as a HUDAC guarantee?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: -- but we do have time if we proceed now in a systematic, methodical manner. We have plenty of time to find a permanent solution to the disposal of our irradiated fuel.

Mr. J. Reed: When the minister is talking about this work being very little more than a confirmation of what he understands to have been proven in other jurisdictions, is he aware of geological survey circular 779, US Department of the Interior, entitled Geological Disposal of High Level Radioactive Wastes Earth Science Perspectives, dated 1978, which I think is probably the most current piece of information of its kind? This still expresses very profound concern about the ability of these techniques, as they are known at the present time, to permanently remove these highly toxic wastes from the biosphere.

Is he aware of this circular and if he is not, will he take the trouble to study it thoroughly, because it indicates that --

Mr. Speaker: The question has been asked.

Mr. J. Reed: -- that a good deal more work is necessary?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: I cannot claim to have read that particular document. What I have done is to listen to many of our outstanding scientists in this country with Atomic Energy of Canada Limited who are people whose judgement and knowledge we respect and must respect. After all, not all the wisdom is across the border. We happen to have some in this country as well.

Mr. Kerrio: We export it.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: It is the responsibility of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited and their scientists to tell us and prove to us in elected positions that their concept is sound.

Ms. Gigantes: It’s sloppy.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: That is what this exercise is all about.

Ms. Gigantes: You are sloppy.

Mr. Deans: Supplementary: Since there is some serious question about the appropriateness of what is being proposed, I wonder if the minister would consider referring the documents that he filed with us today, together with all of the other pertinent information, to the select committee that is constituted now to study the needs of Ontario Hydro and matters related to nuclear power in order that we could devote some time during this calendar year to pursuing this at the level of the members of the Legislature.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: I cannot fully accept the premise upon which that statement was based.

Mr. Deans: Ignore the premise.

Mr. Warner: Try answering the question.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: This is a highly doubtful kind of comment.

Mr. Deans: Ignore the premise.

Mr. Warner: The minister is highly doubtful, but let him answer the question.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: The proposal, which was a proposal rather than a question, or phrased in the form of a question, as to whether this is something that might go to select committee directly along with documents is something I would like to take under advisement.

I am tabling in this session today supporting documents -- Canadian documents mainly -- that are relevant to this particular subject. On the matter of whether or not this should go directly to the select committee of this House, this is something I would like to take under advisement.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: I don’t quite buy the assumption or the premises that there are polluters here.

Mr. Kerrio: This is pollution of the worst kind.

Mr. Foulds: Has the minister ever heard of tailings?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: If the premise there is that it is the people in the uranium industry who are the polluters, to the extent that pollution is involved in nuclear energy and in the development of any form of energy I should remind all of us -- and I think we are all aware of this -- that the beneficiaries of nuclear energy are all of the people of Ontario. Twenty-seven per cent of the electric power that we saw here in the year 1977, which we all enjoyed, came from nuclear energy.

Mr. Kerrio: Mr. Roman starts to be the principal beneficiary. He is going to languish in the sun.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: I certainly think it has been recognized that part of the cost of the concept verification work that will be carried out through this joint agreement will be carried by all of the people of Ontario -- a very small amount. But certainly Hydro also recognizes that the hydro consumer will also have to bear part of the costs.

Mr. Warner: Roman makes billions; the public pays.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: But there again, I can assure members it is a very small amount. If, for example, we were to say that the total cost of a kilowatt hour of hydro is 28 mills, the cost of doing the work and finding the repository for the permanent solution is 0.5 mills, which is about one fifty-sixth of all of the cost of nuclear energy production. So it is a very small amount.

Mr. Nixon: Put that in hundreds of millions of dollars, will you?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: It is a very small amount.

Mr. Kerrio: You’re going to buy the hole back, that’s what you’re going to do.

Mr. Speaker: Final supplementary; the member for Port Arthur.

Mr. Foulds: I have a two-part question for the minister, arising out of his last answer. Do I understand correctly that the Ontario government, Ontario Hydro, the federal government and AECL are committed solely to disposal through burying of one kind or another, that they are looking at no other alternatives and that is the only thing they are examining? Secondly, is it not true that Ontario Hydro, in estimating that nuclear energy is the cheapest form of energy, have not included the costs of disposal, which we do not know, or the cost of decommissioning nuclear plants?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: I’ve forgotten the first part of the member’s question.

Mr. Foulds: Are they committed only to burial of various kinds? The minister has a short memory.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: Thank you. This particular joint agreement deals with the verification of the concepts which involve disposal in a deep geological foundation, namely granite or pluton or whatever you want to call it. That is this particular concept. I don’t know whether, in the course of the years, other methods of permanent disposal will be seriously studied. There are others available; for example, the West Germans are using salt mines to store it.

Mr. Foulds: That’s burial. That’s burial in the ground of various types.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: It’s burial. Well, it’s essentially the same thing.

Ms. Gigantes: It hasn’t worked in the States. Sloppy.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: The question also referred to costs. Ontario Hydro recognizes that whatever costs are entailed in the eventual permanent, managed storage and disposal of irradiated fuel which they have produced, it is a fair and honest cost that should be charged to the hydro consumers.

Mr. Foulds: But they are not including it in their figures.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: That cost, as I indicated very early on here today, is one fifty-sixth of the total cost of the Hydro bill.

Mr. Warner: That’s disgusting.

Interjections.

MEAT PACKING DISPUTE

Mr. Nixon: I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour having to do with the news reports of the negotiations between Allied Packers, Swift’s and Canada Packers. Can she tell us what we might expect here, assuming that the news reports are correct and that the workers may very well not vote to accept the 12½ per cent offer and that if Swift’s is struck, Canada Packers is going to close down its facility and lock out the workers?

Hon. B. Stephenson: Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that the news report, to all intents and purposes, is correct. That’s precisely what has been agreed.

Mr. Nixon: Supplementary: Is the minister going to be doing anything in preparation for, let’s say, the expectation -- we hope it won’t happen but perhaps it will -- that there will be a lengthy strike involving many thousands of workers and involving the meat packing industry? Is she going to wait until a strike occurs before she makes her services available, or is she concerned about that in any way?

Hon. B. Stephenson: To suggest that the ministry has not been involved in these negotiations up to this point is, of course, ludicrous. The division of industrial relations has been actively involved. In fact, the director of industrial relations for the Ministry of Labour has been involved in these negotiations and is continuing to be involved. We are making every effort in trying to resolve the problem rather than have such a strike and ensuing lockout occur.

Mr. Nixon: What does the minister think about the policy that Canada Packers has enunciated, that without having a strike there they are going to lock out 6,000 workers in sympathy with the company that provides their major competition?

Hon. B. Stephenson: I gather that this is a relatively new and unusual stance on the part of the member companies or the group of companies in the area of meat packing. They have never before, I gather, stood together when they were faced with potential labour-management problems. This was a decision which, I gather, was made by the management of those companies. It is not a decision in which government had any part.

Mr. Nixon: And the minister doesn’t intend to have any.

Hon. B. Stephenson: The opinion of the Ministry of Labour has already been expressed to the companies.

Mr. Nixon: What was that? That is really what I was asking. What is the minister’s opinion? I asked her to make a comment on that.

Mr. Speaker: Supplementary, the member for Ottawa Centre.

Mr. Cassidy: Supplementary: Does the ministry plan any further intervention, in view of the fact that there does not appear to be a dispute between Canada Packers and its workers -- it involves another company, to which they are not related in any way -- and, therefore, there is collusion which is probably in violation of federal anti-competition law, let alone good-faith bargaining?

[2:30]

Mr. Kerrio: You call it solidarity.

Hon. B. Stephenson: There are, of course, negotiations going on amongst the management and labour of all the packing companies at this time. The statement that was made by Canada Packers was related to their potential action in terms of a fellow company, should a strike occur there. But there are negotiations going on with all of the meat packers right now.

Mr. Nixon: Supplementary: Would the minister tell the House what the opinion of the ministry was that was expressed to management?

Hon. B. Stephenson: It was simply expressed that this was a most unusual form of action, but we were informed that it had been carried out by others before --

Mr. Nixon: That would make them turn pale.

Hon. B. Stephenson: -- though not in the meat packing industry.

Mr. Cassidy: Supplementary: If the ministry is prepared to condone this action by Canada Packers, is the government also prepared to bring in legislation to permit secondary boycotts in the cases where labour unions are in a strike situation and other workers wish to provide them with support by also going on strike?

Hon. B. Stephenson: There was no such statement made that the Ministry of Labour or the government condoned this action.

Mr. McClellan: Double standard.

Ms. Gigantes: Wouldn’t that be fair?

RADIOACTIVE WASTE

Mr. Cassidy: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Energy arising out of the statement he has made today. I want to begin by expressing concern at the fact that --

Mr. Speaker: Question?

Mr. Cassidy: -- that the government has entered into this agreement prior to the reports of both --

Mr. Speaker: Question?

Mr. Cassidy: -- the Porter commission and the select committee on Hydro.

Mr. Speaker, is the minister aware of the recommendations of Dr. Robert Uffen, who was a vice-chairman of Hydro and the former chief science adviser to the cabinet, where he recommended that recommendation 27 of the Sir Brian Flowers report in Britain, which called for no commitment to a large program of nuclear fission power until it had been demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that a method exists to ensure the safe containment of long-lived, highly radioactive wastes for the indefinite future?

Is he aware that this recommendation of Sir Brian Flowers, in the opinion of the vice-chairman of Hydro, should also be applied in this country? If so, can the minister therefore comment on what is happening with Ontario Hydro’s nuclear commitment, since it appears from his statement today that in fact there will be an expansion of that commitment prior to knowing whether the proposed method of waste disposal is safe?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: Mr. Speaker, if I could respond to the latter part of that question first, I think we should make it clear here, as was also indicated in the statement, that this joint agreement and this attempt to develop this program is not based on possible future expansion and it is not predicated on future expansion of Ontario Hydro in its nuclear generating capacity. We have irradiated fuel there right now that we have to deal with, even if we stopped building any new plants tomorrow.

So it’s not predicated on the idea that we are going to go on and on expanding our nuclear power program.

In response to the other part of the question, about Dr. Flowers of Britain, I find it rather interesting that the member should quote him, because, as the member probably knows, Britain after a long exercise, through a special committee of its Parliament, has now decided to embark on a program of reprocessing nuclear energy which goes far beyond anything that we would have dared to do in this country. In fact, we here have been saying that we will do nothing in terms of implementing a program of reprocessing at least until the international moratorium has expired.

Britain is far ahead of us -- maybe somebody would say far more courageous, far more intelligent or far more something; certainly they are not nearly as cautious as we are in this country -- on the whole question of reprocessing nuclear energy. So I find it rather interesting that the member should refer to a report coming from Britain.

Mr. Foulds: You are not answering the question.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: I would also say that our joint agreement and our plan are based on other Canadian scientists and on Canadian scientists whose work we respect very highly.

Mr. Cassidy: Supplementary: In pointing out that Robert Uffen is a distinguished Canadian scientist who spent a full year studying this matter and is obviously well qualified to comment on it, perhaps I could pursue this: Can the minister confirm that Ontario Hydro is now planning an energy centre in eastern Ontario with a 12,000- megawatt nuclear capacity, that the potential site for that facility has been narrowed down to only four locations, that it is planned that the actual construction will begin sometime around the early 1990s --

Mr. Sterling: They never said that it was going to be nuclear.

Mr. Cassidy: -- and that this will more than double the existing and projected nuclear capacity of Ontario Hydro? Is it not correct that in projecting this energy centre in eastern Ontario based on nuclear power, Hydro’s planning for that is facilitated by the assumption that we have the long-term storage problems resolved through the announcement the minister made today?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: Mr. Speaker, I can reply categorically to that question that no decision has been made by either Hydro or this government on any future expansion of any generating plant, and in particular, any nuclear plant of the kind the honourable member is referring to. Those are the kinds of comments and observations that are drawn from the realm of mythology and not of fact.

Ms. Gigantes: Mythology? What is the minister talking about?

Mr. Warner: Turn around and tell the members back there. Address your remarks to the back row.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: I would hope that my fellow representatives from Ottawa would help us to keep the general public informed about facts and not generate mythologies and myths.

Mr. Cassidy: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege.

Mr. Speaker: What is your point of privilege?

Mr. Cassidy: The minister implied that I was misleading the House, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker: No, he did not.

Hon. B. Stephenson: You’ve got a guilty conscience, Michael Morris, that’s all.

Mr. Speaker: He did not. He said that the question was predicated on improper facts.

Mr. Cassidy: No, mythology, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. J. Reed: A supplementary: I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether or not the concept of the repository will provide for retrieving of the spent fuel?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: Mr. Speaker, I have been advised by the scientists that a repository is, in fact, a dead end. That’s it. You cannot retrieve out of the repository. You could retrieve out of interim storage centres, of course, but once it’s in the repository it’s the end of the line and it’s irretrievable.

Ms. Gigantes: The minister is wrong. He’s all wrong.

Mr. Turner: She is the expert.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: Okay, well you tell us.

Mr. Cassidy: Before the minister resorts to charges about mythology again, is he aware that it has been reported that Ontario Hydro has announced the fact that it is drilling and conducting a geophysical survey program in eastern Ontario in connection with the four potential generating station sites in that area and that the particular report about the program for eastern Ontario has, in fact, been reprinted in Short Circuit, which is compiled by Hydro’s own communication services? Mythology indeed!

Hon. Mr. Baetz: I responded to the question, which was, had Hydro decided -- or I think the honourable member made it a fact rather than a question.

Mr. Warner: The minister is in trouble now.

Mr. Foulds: They’re drilling.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: The fact is, and it’s as categorical this time as it was the last time, neither this government nor Ontario Hydro has made a decision to build these big generating plants or narrow it down to two sites or whatever. They have not done it.

Mr. MacDonald: Oh, of course not.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: There has been no decision made and we are a long way from reaching a decision.

Mr. Breithaupt: But they are looking.

Mr. MacDonald: They are drilling to prepare for it.

Mr. Cassidy: The government is spending millions of dollars to find a site.

Mr. Foulds: They are looking.

Mr. Stong: Supplementary: Now that the minister has conducted a study into the safe disposal of spent fuel has he also included in his study a program of safe transportation of this radioactive material through our communities from point of creation to point of disposal?

Mr. Foulds: No, they haven’t. They haven’t even done that.

Ms. Gigantes: They’ll transport it from eastern Ontario, right from eastern Ontario.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: Mr. Speaker, as we indicated in the statement, the vast responsibility for research and development and the management of nuclear energy remains with the federal government. However, in this joint agreement, it is noted that the question of transportation is the responsibility of the Ontario government, or more precisely its agency, Ontario Hydro, which certainly will continue its research on transportation methods.

Mr. Foulds: Table the agreement.

APPRENTICESHIP PROGRAM

Mr. Cassidy: I have a question of the Minister of Colleges and Universities. In 1973, a recommendation was made by the task force on industrial training that the Ministry of Colleges and Universities undertake an independent study of the costs of on-the-job apprentice training that are borne by employers and the benefits that accrue to employers from having apprentices. Can the minister tell the House whether any such study has been undertaken and, if so, what were the findings?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: Yes, such a study has been undertaken. The findings are rather extensive. I will be glad to supply the member with a copy of that report. I think the critics have a copy, but if there’s any doubt, we will make sure the member gets a copy of that report. It was completed only a matter of a month or six weeks ago.

Mr. Cassidy: Supplementary: If the minister is referring to the study of the machinists’ trade by Carrie, Coopers and Lybrand which came down about four months ago, has the minister information which relates to other trades and the costs and benefits of apprenticeship training in those industries? If so, will he table that information tomorrow when he makes his announcement about apprenticeship training?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: We are certainly prepared to table as much information as we have on the cost of apprenticeship training. It’s fairly extensive.

Mr. Cassidy: Supplementary: The minister now has left me in doubt. If he doesn’t have very much information, can the minister explain how the government can launch a major initiative in the absence of comprehensive information over just what are the costs of apprenticeship training to employers and the benefits to employers as well as to the province at large?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: I suggested that the information is rather extensive and not the contrary. We will supply that for him tomorrow.

RADIOACTIVE WASTE

Mr. J. Reed: I have a question for the Minister of Energy. Further to the area which he has skated around today and avoided, he promised an answer the day he first made a statement saying he would make a major statement today regarding radioactive waste. I had asked him to what extent Ontario Hydro was involved with AECL in reprocessing. I asked him how many bundles of spent fuel had been shipped to AECL for experimental work during the time the moratorium was on.

Mr. Speaker: What are you going to ask today?

Mr. J. Reed: I would like to ask him today if these rock-bound repositories are to be of the non-retrievable type, why is AECL contemplating reprocessing by the year 2000 and why did it tell me so?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: I have the answers to the questions which the honourable member opposite raised. I will be quite pleased to read them to the House, at this point, if that is your wish, Mr. Speaker.

An hon. member: No, don’t waste time.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: Do you wish, Mr. Speaker, that I read the question? It was a multidimensional question.

Mr. Speaker: How long will it take?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: It’s a long question. It will take five minutes, I guess. Is the member prepared to listen to this?

Mr. J. Reed: Yes.

Mr. Martel: Don’t torture us.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: I can send it to the member by mail also.

Mr. Conway: You will get a holiday in Madoc for this.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: The first question was: Is Ontario Hydro participating with Atomic Energy of Canada Limited in the experimental reprocessing of spent nuclear fuel at least to the extent of supplying spent fuel bundles to AECL?

The answer given to me by Ontario Hydro is that small quantities of irradiated fuel owned by Ontario Hydro are sent to the research and development laboratories of Atomic Energy of Canada on an ongoing basis for examination as part of a joint fuel development program. This is aimed at refining fuel performance and assessing fuel storage, transportation and disposal methods.

In addition, arrangements were made in 1975 to sell 72 irradiated Pickering fuel bundles to Atomic Energy of Canada Limited. AECL subsequently shipped this material from Chalk River to Italy for experimental reprocessing by CNEN, Comitato Nazionale per L’Energia Nucleare.

Mr. Cassidy: You’d bomb in west Toronto with that accent.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: This is the only transfer by Hydro, the only irradiated fuel to AECL, that is ultimately involved in reprocessing studies.

In reply to the second question on how much material has been shipped and how much is planned to be shipped in the near future, the total shipment of irradiated fuel from Ontario Hydro-owned generating stations to Atomic Energy of Canada Limited is summarized as follows: Pickering generating station, 78 bundles plus 60 elements; Bruce generating station, six bundles plus nine elements.

[2:45]

With the exception of the 72 Pickering bundles sold to AECL, included in the above total, the fuel was sent for examination purposes only. Current plans consist of the shipment of 14 irradiated fuel bundles in 1978 and 11 in 1979. These will be employed in research investigation on fuel storage, transportation and fuel encasement prior to disposal.

Finally: What safeguards are undertaken with this unprecedented kind of transportation to ensure that there is going to be no spillage? Regular shipments of irradiated fuel have been made from the nuclear-powered demonstration reactor at Rolphton, Ontario, to Atomic Energy of Canada Limited at Chalk River, Ontario, for storage purposes for more than 15 years. Additional shipments have been less regularly made from the Douglas Point, Pickering and Bruce generating stations as part of the ongoing fuel development program.

All shipments are approved by the Atomic Energy Control Board and made in massive shipping containers. There has never been an adverse consequence to the public of Ontario from these shipments by Ontario Hydro. The containers are designed to withstand accident conditions with no significant release to their contents.

Mr. Cassidy: Has there ever been an accident?

Hon. Mr., Baetz: The reference test conditions of the International Atomic Energy Agency include a nine-metre drop onto an unyielding surface, a one-metre drop penetration test on a 15-centimetre diameter steel post, and a 30-minute exposure in an enveloping petroleum fire at 800 degrees centigrade, all carried out in sequence. An additional immersion test in 15 metres of water is also required.

Recent mechanical tests in the United States have included drops from helicopters, rocket-driven through impact into concrete abutments, and collision with high-speed locomotives. In spite of all this, no containers have failed.

Mr. Peterson: Supplementary: Since we are on the subject of nuclear waste, I would like to know what the minister is doing about the other half of the problem, which many scientists consider far more significant even than the one to which he has addressed his mind today. That is the problem of tailings in the mines.

What is the government policy on that? What is the ministry doing? What studies is it undertaking at this time?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: This joint agreement deals only with the matter of spent fuels --

Mr. Peterson: That was my premise, with which the minister will agree.

Hon. Mr. Baetz: The question of the mine tailings and so forth is a subject which is not the responsibility of this government or my ministry, but rather of the Minister of the Environment (Mr. McCague), working with Atomic Energy and Environment Canada. I cannot answer that particular question.

Mr. Peterson: Mr. Speaker, is it possible to redirect the question?

Mr. Speaker: I don’t think it was supplementary to begin with.

Ms. Gigantes: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister, since he won’t give us the information, if he has it, about where drillings are going to take place for fuel waste disposal, can he give us the information about where AECL has been doing its drilling over the last two years? Also, can he tell us how, in this plan that lies before us, he is going to see any pattern emerging with the development of fuel reprocessing and waste disposal?

I am asking him to relate to the kind of experiments that have been going on at Chalk River -- to tell us that Ontario Hydro doesn’t know about this, he doesn’t know about it, and we are not well down the path to reprocessing here in Ontario right now. Isn’t this all going to happen in eastern Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: I will try to recall the many dimensions of that question.

First of all, on the reprocessing of fuel, which is in itself an extremely important question and one which I am sure will be discussed here for many years to come, this joint program does not deal with the question of reprocessing. It is not a sneaky way to introduce reprocessing, and I would like to assure the House of that.

The member has implied that I knew where the drilling was taking place --

Ms. Gigantes: Shouldn’t you know?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: -- or is about to take place. I do not know where the drilling is taking place. That’s the whole purpose of this exercise.

Ms. Gigantes: Shouldn’t you know?

Mr. Kerrio: We’ve never accused him of knowing anything.

Ms. Gigantes: It’s been going on for two years.

WOMEN’S HEALTH SERVICES

Mr. Breaugh: I’d like to pursue with the Minister of Health the matter that was raised by my colleague from Beaches-Woodbine (Ms. Bryden) concerning statistics used in the Ontario Status of Women Council publication, About Face.

Is the minister in agreement with the statistics quoted in here that one in five hysterectomies are unnecessary and that women are prescribed tranquilizing drugs at double the rate of men? Are those statistics reasonably accurate for Ontario this year?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: I have yet to see the report. It hasn’t reached me yet. It’s been released, but it hasn’t got through the system to me.

As the member knows and this has been discussed in our estimates several times, and as I mentioned to his colleague on Friday -- we are looking at the question of trends in surgery as they pertain to all in the population, not just the female sex. I would have difficulty attacking or substantiating those figures at this point.

Mr. Breaugh: Supplementary: I wonder if the minister could take the time to table in this House what he considers to be the relevant statistics on those two matters in this province.

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: I think that until the study we have under way is completed, I’d have some difficulty in being able to say in a definitive manner what is an appropriate number of hysterectomies, appendectomies or tonsillectomies. It’s very much a matter for individual judgement and argument, as the member knows.

We’re hoping this particular study will help us get a better fix on what is appropriate so that we can then take the appropriate action.

PRAXIS INVESTIGATION

Mrs. Campbell: My question is to the Attorney General. I would ask him if at this time he is prepared to report to the House as to the tabling of the Praxis report.

He may recall that this was discussed before. My understanding was that he had undertaken to table what he termed the “relevant portions” of that report. Could we now know when or what we are going to have tabled?

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: To the best of my knowledge, I’ve related the relevant portions in the various statements I’ve made with respect to this matter.

I’m not suggesting for a moment that the member for St. George has suggested that I would table the police report as such because, obviously, these police reports contain a lot of information that has to be treated as confidential, largely because they often contain hearsay statements, for example, allegations that have been made that have not been proven, or proven to be well-founded, at least, and it would be very unfair to individual citizens to have these reports tabled in their entirety.

It would be helpful to me if the honourable member would direct my attention to any specific aspect of the matter with which she is not satisfied, insofar as my responses in the Legislature are concerned, and I would attempt to assist her and other members of the House who are interested. I’ve attempted to the best of my ability, to relate what I consider to be the relevant matters to this House, as this whole matter has unfolded.

Mrs. Campbell: Supplementary: Are we to take it then that at this point in time the minister feels that he has relayed to the House all of the relevant matters? For instance, I raised the question of the lack of participation in the questioning of John Hladun. The Attorney General didn’t seem to know anything about this and yet this is the person who was interviewed by the CBC and was able, according to that story, to shed a great deal of light on this. None of this, apparently, was used by the commission or anybody else in trying to investigate this total matter.

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: Yes, I recall the honourable member mentioned that name. I’ve asked my office to obtain particulars as to the identity of this gentleman. I don’t know what has been done at this point in time. It may be that the honourable member can provide us with the correct spelling of the name, if my office does not already have it.

Mrs. Campbell: Ask Hansard.

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: I don’t know whether Hansard has the correct spelling or if there’s been any problem in locating him. In view of the honourable member’s statement the other day I think this gentleman should be interviewed. I will undertake to see that that happens.

When I say I’ve related all relevant information, I want to make it clear, to the best of my ability I’ve given the House any relevant information in the context of the public interest. There is other information that obviously would be considered relevant in its broadest sense, but it would not be in the public interest to reveal some of the confidential information. Insofar as that particular individual is concerned, I will ensure that he is interviewed, because I don’t treat the matter as a closed book. We will certainly pursue that aspect of it.

Mr. Lawlor: Supplementary question: Would the Attorney General reveal to this House who the original informant or purloiner of the documents in question was? If he’s not prepared to do that, how on earth did the editor of the Toronto Sun come into possession of a number of documents in question?

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: I’m not prepared to reveal the extent to which I am aware, or believe I’m aware, of the identity of that individual. Secondly, I’m not aware at this point in time what information the editor of the Toronto Sun has. I’m sorry, that’s something that has escaped my attention.

FOOD LAND PRESERVATION

Mr. Swart: A question to the Minister of Housing: I want to pursue with him the matter of the proposed October Ontario Municipal Board hearing on the Niagara region urban development boundaries and about which I gave him a little additional information three or four weeks ago. Will he tell us now that there is no truth to the stated conjecture by officials of his ministry and TEIGA that the government may not permit those hearings to be held; or if he does he may restrict it to dealing with minor variations of the boundaries which have been set and not let it deal with the whole principle of preservation of the fruit and grape lands?

Hon. Mr. Bennett: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I’m not sure what the honourable member means about no truth in the fact. There’s been no statement by my ministry or by anybody from the Ontario Municipal Board or others to the best of my knowledge.

As for the hearing, I’m not sure whether the hearing will proceed in October or not. It depends on some of the surrounding circumstances relating to another hearing in the Barrie region as to whether this hearing will proceed or not. I cannot add anything further to that answer.

Mr. Swart: Supplementary: Subsequent to that, will he assure this House that the hearing will proceed at some time, whether it is in October or not, and that there will not be any direction from the government that it shall not be held or that there will be a restriction? Will there be a letter go from the Treasurer (Mr. McKeough), as there was in the Barrie case, in which he affected the hearings which took place?

Hon. Mr. Bennett: I give the member and the House the assurance that the hearing will eventually be held. As to the second part of the question, I am not going to give the House the assurance that there will not be some direction from my ministry or from the government to the Ontario Municipal Board, since we have already established the boundaries as far as urban development is concerned in that particular regional plan.

[3:00]

An hon. member: You are not going to let the full hearing proceed.

TOURISM

Mr. Eakins: To the Minister of Industry and Tourism: Is the minister aware of the forecast for the national travel deficit for 1978 in that one source predicts that it will be reduced by $100 million, but most other sources are forecasting that it will further deteriorate to about $2 billion? Given that Ontario tourism figures generally range from one third to one half of the nation’s total, is the minister aware of this and is he prepared to accept such a deficit this year?

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: I am aware of varying forecasts that have been made relating to the potential deficit in Canada. Certainly I don’t accept and I don’t think anyone wants to accept such a deficit as some are forecasting. From what we can gather within Ontario and from contacts with other provinces, we really aren’t looking at it that pessimistically. We do think there is going to be an improvement in the tourism business this year. We do feel we will make a substantial reduction in the deficit.

Mr. Peterson: Is the Treasurer making the forecast?

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: We are not going to get back to an even-Stephen basis because we are running close to $2 billion in deficit, but we feel that we will make some impact on reducing that.

Mr. Eakins: I would rather accept the optimistic forecast, but would the minister not feel that there is still time to initiate further stimulative measures such as a tax credit for holidaying at home in Canada?

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: I have read that very interesting observation in the report that was prepared by the honourable member and his colleagues. Quite frankly, when one starts getting into the tax credit situation, it isn’t something I would want to comment on until I would find out whether or not it is going to be done on a national basis with all of the provinces being involved. I am sure, as the honourable member knows, there are some difficulties if we try to do it as the province of Ontario as opposed to other provinces not joining in. That is a matter that can be discussed, I would think, at the tourism ministers’ conference that will be held this coming fall.

Mr. Wildman: Supplementary: Could the minister indicate if what he hopes will turn the situation around is mainly his advertising program, or is he and the ministry attempting to get more travel agencies and tourist outfitters involved in package programs to encourage more Canadian and American travel in Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: I think it is a combination of all these things. I certainly wouldn’t think we are going to turn around the very large deficit we are experiencing in a short period of time simply with advertising.

In the ministry, we do have a number of people who are working in conjunction with travel agencies, with airlines and with individual tourist resort operators. Package deals are being put together, one of which is operating very successfully at the present time in northwestern Ontario involving North Central Airlines. North Central Airlines is also working right at this very time with resort operators in northeastern Ontario to establish a similar type of program. They have been very successful in bringing people in.

Mr. Wildman: What about Europe?

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: The honourable member mentioned Europe. Yes, we are doing some work in Europe as well. There are package tours being put together over there again involving some of the airlines. I would mention not only Europe, but also North Central Airlines, for example, who are bringing people over from Japan to be in resorts in northwestern Ontario this year.

Mr. Peterson: When is the Minister of Housing coming back?

Mr. Nixon: Supplementary: Is the minister concerned that the deficit might be adversely affected by the fish war with the United States which is now going to involve sports fishing?

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: I am glad the honourable member asked that because we would be concerned if there was going to be the ridiculous situation of having sports fishermen involved in this area.

Mr. Ashe: Another blunder by those Liberals in Ottawa.

Mr. Bradley: It is nice to have you back.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: Perhaps I might be given the opportunity to explain to the House, because I am sure there would be some interest, that we had expected a statement in the House today by the federal Minister of Fisheries, Mr. LeBlanc.

Mr. Nixon: Our minister wasn’t even here.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: However, he did not make such a statement. The understanding we have is that in answer to a question in the House, Mr. LeBlanc said that Canadian waters are to remain open to sports fishing.

Mr. Jamieson said in the House as well today that he feels the situation will be completely clarified within a few hours.

Mr. Nixon: In American waters only.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: So my understanding is that apparently regardless of what is happening as far as the American waters are concerned, the Canadian government does not intend to impose its ban on sports fishing.

OIL SPILL

Ms. Bryden: Mr. Speaker, since today is World Environment Day it seems appropriate to ask the Minister of the Environment what he is doing to discharge his responsibility to protect the environment of Ontario? I have questions specifically in two areas.

Mr. Bradley: Yes or no.

Ms. Bryden: First, when is he going to extend the application of the Environmental Assessment Act to the whole of the private sector and not just to designated industries as at present?

Second, what is he doing about a very specific environmental problem which has just been reported to me? I refer to a large fuel oil spill in Lake Superior, perhaps amounting to several thousands of gallons, which occurred last week at the Kimberly-Clark plant near Terrace Bay. Has the minister received a report from the company on this spill? Has he sent officials to check on the accuracy of the report? What have they found? What steps is he taking to clean up this spill? What effects does he think the spill may have on the aquatic and bird life in the area?

Hon. Mr. Grossman: Yes, no, yes, yes, and maybe.

Mr. Nixon: This will be good.

Hon. Mr. McCague: Mr. Speaker, those short questions are very easy to answer. On the first matter, I think the honourable member knows that the Environmental Assessment Act has not yet been extended to cover municipal projects -- that is the second step. The third step will be the private projects.

Mr. Wildman: When?

Hon. Mr. McCague: I will be going to the municipal liaison committee in September with the proposal for municipal projects. I want to discuss it with them. I want to have some time for some input from them, and I am not prepared to make any statement at this time as to when and if the private projects will come under the act.

As far as the spill that the honourable member is referring to, I do not have a report on that yet.

SERVICES FOR THE PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

Mr. Blundy: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Health: In view of the minister’s commitment in the early spring of 1977 to the Provincial Secretary for Social Development (Mrs. Birch) that he would do a complete review of the present situation regarding comments made by the Ontario Advisory Council on the Physically Handicapped regarding unnecessary delays in the disabled being released from hospitals and other programs of the Ministry of Community and Social Services, which provided assistive devices which, of course, come from the Ministry of Health, would the minister now make known to this House what his findings are and what actions he will take?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: Mr. Speaker, I missed the very first part of the question -- whether it was a statement attributed to me or a letter, or whatever. The provincial secretary and I have recently discussed this matter following a visit to a rehabilitation hospital, and it is a matter which is under consideration. In the past year I have also had a report prepared by my staff, which is still in the works, on the question of prosthetics and orthotics, and that is still very much under consideration. Of course, in a time of restraint it is questionable whether we would be able to add any new benefits on a very large scale. But certainly we are considering it.

Mr. Blundy: In view of another newspaper story today about physically handicapped people near Pickering who cannot leave a very expensive and emotionally debilitating chronic care unit because of this need, would the minister have some comment on what immediate action he is going to take to get these people back into community life and out of the expensive institutions in which they are living?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: The social workers in the particular hospitals, and from time to time some of my own staff in the ministry, do get involved in trying to assist in the placement of individuals back into the community wherever possible. It’s not an easy problem to resolve. The ultimate resolution will be a very expensive one.

I’m not trying to use finances as a scapegoat by any manner or means. The fact of the matter is that it will be a very expensive one, but we are not going to shy away from it. We will try to arrive at a meaningful resolution and then, within the availability of funds and our ability to fund any new program, try to get at it.

Mr. McClellan: Supplementary: Does the minister not agree that it is completely inappropriate that the disabled have to obtain essential prosthetics either from charity or from general welfare assistance, and that the time has come to include the provision of prosthetics under prescription in the Ontario Health Insurance Plan?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: If the honourable member is saying that there should never ever again be a role for the private sector volunteer agency to assist, then I wouldn’t agree with that at all.

Mr. McClellan: I never said that.

Mr. Warner: What nonsense.

Mr. McClellan: That’s too stupid to comment on.

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: It is a matter which we are looking at, but again I remind the honourable member that we are in difficult financial times and anything we might do would have to be tempered by those fiscal realities.

Mr. Havrot: The fairy godmother brings the money down for them.

Mr. Nixon: Just a paltry $14 million.

INCO SAFETY COMPLAINT

Mr. Martel: A question to the Minister of Labour: Is the minister aware that on February 28, Cathy Duhaime of the United Steelworkers was sent home by a supervisor, Mr. Brickett, of Inco for refusing to work on what she considered an unsafe operation? Is the minister further aware that the supervisor failed to provide an opportunity to the employee to have her complaint investigated by first-line supervision in attendance with a union representative, as defined by the Employees’ Health and Safety Act?

Is the minister further aware that her ministry made the following recommendation through Mr. Susil, who did the investigation:

“Your complaint in respect of being denied to have your initial complaint investigated by the shift boss in the presence of an OSHE committee member is legitimate. Charges against D. Brickett are considered.”? Why then did the ministry not lay charges as prescribed under the act when this official violated the act?

Hon. B. Stephenson: I do not have the specific details of this case with me at the moment. I shall be glad to develop them in detail for the honourable member and present them to the House.

Mr. Martel: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker --

Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired.

Mr. Martel: I will continue tomorrow.

Mr. Nixon: I really wanted to know what his supplementary was.

FRENCH-LANGUAGE SERVICES

Mr. Speaker: On Thursday last, the member for Ottawa Centre (Mr. Cassidy), and the member for Scarborough-Ellesmere (Mr. Warner), both raised what they considered to be a matter of privilege with respect to the Premier’s press release concerning Bill 89,

An Act respecting French Language Services in Ontario. As both members raised the same matter, I will deal with both their allegations together.

Members of the House may well have a grievance in that what they consider to be an announcement of important government policy was made outside of this House. As regrettable as that may be, it does not breach the recognized privileges of this House.

Mr. Nixon: That’s that.

Mr. Pope: Now go back and learn the rules.

An hon. member: A little slap.

Mr. MacDonald: Calculated deception.

PETITION

ENERGY REPORT

Mr. Cassidy: In view of the obvious need in the light of the minister’s statement today to have a legislative committee consider the matters of nuclear waste disposal, and in view of the minister’s refusal to give the House an assurance that that consideration would go forward in the select committee on Hydro affairs, I wish to file with the House a petition, pursuant to provisional order 7 of the Legislative Assembly --

Mr. Breithaupt: You finally found out how to use that.

Mr. Cassidy: -- in which more than 20 members of my party have petitioned that the annual report of the Minister of Energy for the fiscal year ending last March be referred to the select committee on Hydro affairs for such consideration and report as the committee may determine.

Mr. Kerrio: Put on a night shift, Mike.

Mr. Foulds: Good petition.

[3:15]

REPORTS

RADIOACTIVE WASTE

Hon. B. Stephenson, on behalf of Hon. Mr. Baetz, presented certain documents.

Hon. B. Stephenson: I present a copy of the Hare report on The Management of Canada’s Nuclear Wastes; a copy of a brief submitted by Atomic Energy of Canada Limited to the standing committee on national resources and public works entitled, The AECL Program on the Safe Immobilization and Disposal of Radioactive Material from Canadian Nuclear Reactors; a copy of the conceptual drawing of a radioactive waste disposal mine; and a copy of a map which designates the location of 1,500 potential geological formations in Ontario for the safe disposal of waste.

Mr. MacDonald: Where is the Wyatt report?

Mr. Cassidy: Where is the Uffen report?

Mr. Warner: Table your resignation.

Mr. Cassidy: You are using every means possible to delay, aren’t you?

Hon. B. Stephenson: No, I’m not.

Mr. Cassidy: It means you won’t act before the summer.

Hon. B. Stephenson: No, it doesn’t mean that.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

House in committee of supply.

ESTIMATES, MINISTRY OF NORTHERN AFFAIRS (CONCLUDED)

On vote 903, regional priorities and development program; item 5, rail and ferry services:

Mr. Deputy Chairman: I would like to point out that there is one hour and 24 minutes left in the committee of supply for this item.

We’re dealing with vote 903, item 5. The member for Rainy River.

Mr. T. P. Reid: Oh -- does the minister have a statement?

Hon. Mr. Bernier: Yes. I have a bit of information which the members might be interested in.

You will recall, last winter we indicated to the CNR that we had to make certain changes in the Northlander’s service to North Bay because of the excessive costs both in regard to the subsidy and the mileage charge placed on it by the CNR. We indicated in that statement to the Legislature that we were prepared to negotiate with the CNR for the use of our excellent European Northlander equipment on their weekend services. They wanted to replace their conventional equipment with our Northlander equipment and we said we would be only too pleased to sit down and negotiate some reasonable terms with them.

Those negotiations have been proceeding and I think I can report to the members that at this point in time they are encouraging; however, they’re not totally finalized.

Mr. T. P. Reid: Can the minister give me a breakdown on the costs of operating the Northlander, the revenues and expenditures, and the extent of the subsidy in operating it?

Hon. Mr. Bernier: I think I mentioned the Polar Bear Express, as an example, in the discussions we had last Friday. Our revenues were $296,000. Our expenditures were $400,000 and we had an operating loss of $104,000.

The main line service revenues were $1,174,000 and expenditures were $3,914,000. To the 100 per cent operating subsidy there was a further revision of 9.5 per cent, $552,000, so the total subsidy was $3,292,000.

On the Moosonee branch revenues were $1,385,000; expenditures were $3,921,000; and the operating loss, $2,536,000. With adjustments of $889,000 the total Moosonee branch subsidy was $3,529,000.

For the Northlander, which I believe the honourable member was inquiring about, the revenues -- this is one train -- were $1,177,500 and the expenditures were $4,235,300, for an operating loss of $3,057,800; the dining car service had a loss of $245,200, for a total Northlander subsidy of $3,303,000. The total rail service subsidy amounts to $10,124,000, less the Tobermory ferry profit of $104,000.

Mr. T. P. Reid: Can the minister give me an indication of whether these figures are up or down substantially from the past years? Are these subsidies growing ever larger every year?

Hon. Mr. Bernier: The honourable member will recall that supplementary estimates were introduced in the Legislature about a year ago covering the extra cost of the Northlander service. We had hoped that we would have worked out an improved subsidy and rail charge rate from the CNR; this did not materialize. I believe our additional request in the supplementary estimates last year was about $2.5 million; so the extra service we are putting on is obviously putting on extra costs and has to be subsidized at a little higher rate.

Mr. Wildman: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister could indicate to us whether or not he feels the reason that the Northlander was so expensive and perhaps the cost benefit was not what it should have been, as well as the lack of use, might have been related to the fact that there wasn’t enough co-ordination between the Northlander service between Timmins and Toronto and the mainline service between Timmins and North Bay?

Hon. Mr. Bernier: Mr. Chairman, I think the public acceptance of the Northlander operation is nothing less than phenomenal. I can’t recall one adverse criticism of the service or the quality of the equipment we are using on that Northlander. It’s exciting, it’s pleasant, it’s comfortable -- it has all the things you would want in rail travel; so that is not a problem. If there is any criticism, it has to be about the startup of getting a new service into place. There should have been more publicity here in southern Ontario.

I think the honourable member would agree that there is sufficient publicity, maybe an oversaturation, in northeastern Ontario with regard to the Northlander. We are turning that around so that there is more publicity here in the populated areas such as Metropolitan Toronto.

I think there always will be and will always have to be a subsidy to train service. There are many other modes of travel that the train service has to compete against. In fact, we have a very intensive study going on now with the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission and the action group, which as the member knows is made up of all the mayors and reeves of the northeastern Ontario corridor. They are looking at all modes of transportation in their corridor -- rail service, air service and bus service -- to see if some rationalization can take place.

Maybe there’s an oversupply of one type of service vis-à-vis another. Maybe some changes in scheduling, as the member correctly points out, could be done to improve the services in the northeastern Ontario corridor. It’s going on right now, and I think that report is scheduled to be down early this summer.

Mr. Wildman: That’s good. I have had some correspondence and reaction from people in the Timmins-Cochrane area, indicating they felt one of the problems might have been that there just wasn’t enough co-ordination between the two schedules and that there might have been more use of the service there had been more co-ordination. If the minister has any details on that, I would appreciate it if he could give them to us.

Also, I wonder if the minister can tell us if, in conjunction with the Ministry of Industry and Tourism and the private sector as well, is the ministry intending to or is it about to embark upon a package travel tour of the northeast involving the Polar Bear Express, plus perhaps the CN, CP, and the ACR; that is, a tour that would be a sort of round trip of northeastern Ontario? I don’t know how long such a trip would take, but I know this has been rumoured and talked about in the northeast, and I wonder what the ministry is doing on it.

Hon. Mr. Bernier: If I may go back just a moment and indicate to the member for Rainy River that our discussions are going on now with the federal government in our desire to gain a cost-sharing on the Northlander operation. While the negotiations are encouraging, they are not finalized as yet. However, we would expect a reduction in that subsidy of anywhere from $1 million to $ 1½ million if we are successful, and we are putting as much pressure on as we can.

In answer to the member for Algoma yes, the co-operation between Industry and Tourism and ONTC in our own ministry has been going on for several months. We are getting ready to kick off momentarily, really. The first emphasis will be on the Polar Bear Express. We are using the expertise within the Ministry of Industry and Tourism for the promotion aspect of it. The actual copy and material will be vetted closely by the ONTC. We have that advertising package in place.

Improvements will occur to the Polar Bear Express itself. I think I indicated earlier in my discussions here that the actual services on the train itself will be improved with a number of guides who will be fully trained and made cognizant of the historic items in the Moosonee and James Bay area to give the Polar Bear Express customers a real thrill in going into the sub-arctic areas. That’s well along the road, as are the plans to improve certain facilities at the Moosonee end. We are going to see a decided improvement on that end of the service.

In connection with a circle tour, you are quite right; those rumours are accurate. The program has been under discussion for several months with three railways. The package should get under way late this summer or early this fall. The trip will take five or seven days, and the package will use the services of the CNR, the ONR right up to Timmins and to Hearst; then from Hearst right across, and the ACE down to Sault Ste. Marie, and then by CPR to Sudbury.

It is a very exciting package. The plans have been finalized to the extent that already we have bookings from Germany for 300 people on one of the package tours that is going to be pulled together. It is, as I have said, exciting, and one that I think will have a tremendous amount of appeal. It lends itself, with my colleagues’ efforts, to bringing more people into northern Ontario and, first and foremost, to keep them here in Ontario.

Mr. Wildman: That’s good to hear. I wonder if, since we have the Polar Bear Express, this might be called “the black fly junket.”

Hon. Mr. Bernier: No, no; we’ll get a more appropriate name than that.

Mr. Wildman: I wonder if the ministry in conjunction with Industry and Tourism and the ACE has looked at the necessity for upgrading and improving tourist facilities in Hearst. It would seem to me that this could be a real boon for Hearst if this package does well. It certainly might lead to attracting a number of people from southern Ontario and from the United States as well as other parts of the world into a lumbering town, a French-Canadian town, which many of them, especially from the United States, might not have experienced before. If we could improve some of the facilities in Hearst that might even add to that proposal.

[3:30]

Also, one other question on that: Can the minister indicate, if we’re going to be using the ONR or the CN, ACR and CP track, if it’s going to be all ONR equipment? If it is, will it be manned by ONR crews? If that’s the case, have there been any difficulties in regard to union situations and so on?

Hon. Mr. Bernier: The equipment will all be ONR equipment. We have been dealing with the railways and with the unions. The actual train, as I understand it, will be operated by the ONR staff, but each union will have personnel in the proper places when it’s going over their

section of the whole network. All unions have been contacted and we’re working very closely with them. They’re co-operating 100 per cent.

Mr. Wildman: Maybe the minister is still in the process of finalizing this, but could he indicate if he’s going to be leasing track, or is he going to be paying so much to each of CN, AC and CP for the use of their track?

Hon. Mr. Bernier: We won’t be leasing it. What we do is pay a service charge which is worked out between all levels of the railway system. It’s all added in as part and parcel of the whole cost of the package tour.

Mr. Wildman: I’ve one other question in relation to ferry service: Is the ministry involved at all with the negotiations with the state of Michigan in regard to the proposal for a ferry from Manitoulin to the UP?

Hon. Mr. Bernier: While we’re not directly involved, we’ve been monitoring very closely those discussions and the progress being made by the American firm that’s anxious to put on the ferry service. If that were to be finalized and come to fruition it would mean that additional funds would have had to be provided for the road access -- is it to Meldrum Bay?

Mr. Wildman: It would have to be federal funds.

Hon. Mr. Bernier: Yes, there was some responsibility with the feds for the wharfing facilities which had to be built. Our latest ferry itself has broken down and the service will not be in place for this year.

We will be doing a minimal amount of day labour work on that road -- it’s an ongoing effort -- in the hope that they will be successful and we can see that service installed in the not-too-distant future.

Item 5 agreed to.

On item 6, air services:

Mr. T. P. Reid: There’s a couple of things in this regard. I think the norOntair service is one of the better programs the Ontario government has ever got into. I remember recommending it about 10 years ago. But I do have a complaint. I spoke to somebody from Ontario Northland about it last week when we were doing these estimates. It’s a parochial complaint about the changes in scheduling that took place at the end of April.

The people in my area were quite happy with the afternoon flight. They could catch the Air Canada flight out of Toronto at 4:50 p.m. and be home in Fort Frances, Atikokan, or Kenora for dinner. Now, for some reason, that

schedule is changed, which means that you have to leave Toronto at 1:50 in the afternoon. The complaint, strangely enough, comes mostly from civil servants who wish to come to Toronto and do their work and put in a full day’s work here and then return home that evening.

My real complaint is that the schedules seem to be changed at the whim of somebody either who’s running norOntair or at the whim of Transair, I’m not sure which. I want to register a protest with the minister about that.

The other thing I’d like to ask is that in looking at the money expended and the subsidy of $1.13 million -- that’s down considerably from last year when the estimate was $1.82 million. Something that also intrigues me is that in 1976-77 your actual expenditures were almost triple what your estimate was. Can the minister explain, first, why the estimate is down this year by something in the neighbourhood of $700,000 -- where you’re saving that money or why you don’t need it this year? Second, can you explain how things got so out of hand in 1976-77 that you were about $2.5 million out on your budget?

Hon. Mr. Bernier: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the scheduling, it’s quite difficult trying to tie in with the main carriers like Transair and Air Canada, with their constant changes, and with the limited number of aircraft we have and the large number of communities we’re trying to service. To have those aircraft at the right spot at the right time and to cover the distance is sometimes a little difficult.

The difference back in 1976 was a capital cost allowance, the purchase of aircraft. I’m sure the member will recall that vividly. This is not reflected in this year’s estimates, in that no new aircraft have been purchased or will be purchased in this coming year. We will be taking delivery of an aircraft, the seventh aircraft for the northwest region, to replace one that was burned some time ago in Sault Ste. Marie. I think acceptance of that aircraft is planned for the next week or two.

The increase in the growth in the revenues is what is offsetting it. In fact, this year we expect our revenues to go up to about $2.5 million from $2.35 million in 1977. Our actual expenditures are forecast to decline slightly from about $3.7 million to about $3.6 million. Our net loss will be reduced.

I might say as a matter of interest in 1972 the subsidy per passenger was about $25.78, and in 1977 that was reduced to $9.29 per passenger. Growth in passenger traffic is allowing us to reduce the losses. I might say that with the norOntair service, in my opinion and I know in the opinions of a lot of people -- and I’m sure the member for Rainy River agrees with me -- we get the biggest bang for our buck from this particular service. It’s an excellent service. The quality of the equipment is excellent. The reliability of flights is, I guess, one of the highest for a small airline across Canada.

In fact, we’ve had a number of other provinces and people from other countries come to look at the norOntair operation and the service it’s providing for those far-flung communities, 17 communities in total, across northern Ontario. It’s one service that we’re indeed proud of. It’s doing a great job.

Of course, I would like to see it expanded further. We hope to add a number of communities to the program in the near future.

Mr. Haggerty: Like the Niagara Peninsula, Leo.

Hon. Mr. Bernier: I’m sorry, there are areas in northern Ontario that have to be looked after yet. I’m thinking of Hornepayne, Terrace Bay and Geraldton.

Mr. Haggerty: Just give us some of that service down in that area, in St. Catharines too.

Hon. Mr. Bernier: We have enjoyed the excellent service and our distances are much greater than yours down here in southern Ontario.

Mr. Haggerty: Gore Bay down to Owen Sound, Douglas Point and the Niagara Peninsula.

Hon. Mr. Bernier: As northerners we’re indeed grateful for the excellent service it’s providing. I may say to the member for Rainy River I’m sure he’s aware that we’ve added Red Lake recently to the norOntair service -- one community that several years ago told us to pack our bag and not even come near them. That attitude has changed, I am most pleased to report. They are now enjoying the excellent service of norOntair.

We have gone another step further, as I am sure the member for Rainy River will appreciate, in that we now have a member on the ONTC from northwestern Ontario. He is a gentleman who hails from Dryden, Peter Barns, who is very knowledgeable in the aviation field, having been very much involved with the PWA-Transair deal. I don’t know if you would call it a fiasco or what you would call it. The decision hasn’t come down yet; so it must be something along those lines. Nevertheless, he will represent northwestern Ontario. I have personally asked him to take a real interest in the norOntair facilities.

If something does come up, I would encourage the honourable member to get in touch with Mr. Burns who will take his complaint directly to the board. I think he will be a real asset to those of us who live in northwestern Ontario.

Mr. Wildman: I would like to know if the minister has passenger figures available. If he does, can he specifically give me some information regarding the increase in passengers between Sault Ste. Marie and Elliot Lake and Sudbury and Elliot Lake this year over last?

Hon. Mr. Bernier: I don’t have specific figures on each leg of the operation. We can get that and put it in correspondence to you. I do have the growth of passenger travel in which I am sure you will be interested. I would like to put it in the record.

In 1972, we had 10,472 passengers and in 1973 there was a real increase to 14,725. In 1974, we saw that pretty nearly double to 27,401. Then we took a really big jump in 1975 to 62,808 passengers. In 1976, there was an increase to 20,000, which brought it up to 82,072 for that year. There was a further increase in 1977 to 90,161. In 1978, we have forecast a total traffic service of 96,000 passengers. We think that in that short period of six years to grow from 10,000 to 96,000 is a success story indeed. There is no question about it.

Mr. Wildman: I certainly wouldn’t disagree with that. The reason I asked that specific question was in view of the tremendous growth in Elliot Lake and the expansion there and the number of people, a lot of them business and union and government people, travelling into Elliot Lake. My interest was whether or not most of those people who are coming from southern Ontario tend to be coming through Sudbury or through the Sault.

I know the total passengers on that route to Elliot Lake has increased substantially. I wondered whether or not it might mean some changes in the

schedule or not in terms of a second flight into Elliot Lake from either the Sault or Sudbury to serve the needs of those passengers. If the minister has some response, I have one other question.

Hon. Mr. Bernier: I have some figures just for the month of November 1977. On the leg between Sault Ste. Marie and Elliot Lake, we averaged six passenger per flight. On the leg from Sudbury to Elliot Lake, we averaged 10 passengers per flight in the month of November. I might say further to this that we are monitoring the needs of Elliot Lake very closely because of the tremendous mining potential that exists there and the boom we know is going to occur.

When you think that in the mid-1980s the population of Elliot Lake could soar to 35,000, it is obvious to us that air traffic and air service will have to be upgraded considerably. I don’t think it is any secret that we have looked at and are looking at those traffic patterns. At the present time, Kapuskasing is our heaviest load out of the northeast. We would like to tie Elliot Lake in with Sudbury and the Sault. There is a desire for the mining public to have some direct connection between Elliot Lake and Toronto. We have looked at all those configurations and possibilities and our examinations will continue.

[3:45]

I think it is fair to say we would like at some time, if the service warrants it and we can support a larger aircraft -- or increased Twin Otter flights may be the answer -- but it may be somewhere well down the road that we could put a Dash 7 on. That aircraft is made in Ontario by Ontario workmen, and if at all possible, somewhere down the road, I think the province would like to have a Dash 7 in the northern part of Ontario if there are the passengers and the support for that size of aircraft, because it holds something like 50 passengers, and the Twin Otter holds only 19. So we are monitoring it very closely.

Mr. Wildman: As the minister is aware, the federal government is doing some expansion work at the airport in Elliot Lake so it will be able to take larger aircraft. It would probably be useful some time in the future for more direct flights from southern Ontario into that area.

For the benefit of the member for Erie, if we are looking at direct flights, and since the minister indicated that Hornepayne is on the list, I am sure the people of Hornepayne would like to have direct flights into the Niagara Peninsula if that is possible.

Hon. Mr. Bernier: Mr. Chairman, on that point: Hornepayne is an interesting one. The member might be able to enlighten me as to where the traffic pattern would go out of Hornepayne. Does he think the pattern would be oriented to Kapuskasing, to Sault Ste. Marie, or to Thunder Bay? I am just wondering what his opinion is on that.

Mr. Wildman: Certainly the highway traffic pattern is more oriented towards Kapuskasing than the other way. Obviously I haven’t done any studies on it, but it would seem to me that people who are travelling by air do tend to head towards Timmins. However, if there were a link between Hornepayne and Wawa, I suppose they could go through the Sault. I really don’t have any more information than that. It is certainly true that Hornepayne is oriented more towards Kapuskasing and, the other way, to Thunder Bay than it is to Sault Ste. Marie, but I think that has to do with the fact that there wasn’t a highway link until the last few years with the southern part of Algoma.

I have one question relating to a matter I raised in the Ministry of Transportation and Communications estimates last year, I believe; it has to do with safety and how it relates to the air services in the north.

One of the officials in charge of the air service for ONTC had made a statement in the press which I quoted at that time. He was saying that he was very unhappy about the fact that there were more modern radar facilities available than we now have which would make it possible to land and take off in worse weather conditions if they were installed at more airports in the north. He wasn’t just relating to provincial and municipal airports and so on.

I raised it at that time in the standing committee considering the Ministry of Transportation and Communications estimates, and that ONTC official did respond. He did say yes, he had said that and he hoped that those kinds of facilities would be installed in the near future at some of the airports that have heavier traffic than others and eventually at all airports in northern Ontario.

Mr. Haggerty: They’re not that expensive, Leo -- about $60,000.

Mr. Wildman: Yes, about $60,000. Unfortunately, at that time the Minister of Transportation and Communications indicated that they did not have plans to go ahead with that at that time or in the foreseeable future because of restraints. When you consider the fact that it isn’t an overwhelming cost we are talking about, I wonder what plans there are now for the installation of this kind of equipment in the northwest and the northeast; and if there are any plans, what specific airports is the ministry looking at?

Hon. Mr. Bernier: Mr. Chairman, if I might respond to the member’s earlier questions concerning traffic on the Sault-Elliot Lake run: in 1976 our passengers numbered about 1,050; in 1977 the number went up to 4,400. So the volume has increased fourfold; it is very encouraging.

I am personally very much involved and concerned with the question of air safety. And that relates to the days when I did a little bush flying across northern Ontario. Quite frankly, I guess at that time we were flying by the seat of our pants. In many instances, they are still doing that.

Mr. T. P. Reid: Some would say that’s how you operate this ministry. I wouldn’t, but some would.

Hon. Mr. Bernier: I know you wouldn’t say that. No, I’m sure of that.

Nevertheless, we managed to do the job we were supposed to do and that’s the most important thing.

The question of safety causes those of us living in northern Ontario a lot of concern. Following the Fraserdale disaster, a terrible aircraft accident which involved a number of civil servants and other people -- something like 12 deaths -- I called for a public inquiry and personally contacted the federal minister, as did my colleague the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

There was a response which I believe has assisted some of the operators. And let’s not be too quick to condemn the operators, there are a lot of good operators in northern Ontario. I think inspection and surveillance of services by the federal government was indeed weak, and they recognized this. They have since beefed up their inspection system right across the north, at both the local and regional levels, and that is having an impact now.

From recent press comments I also understand the federal government is thinking about setting up a public body to examine aircraft accidents across Canada. I think this may satisfy some of our needs.

The cost and efficiency of navigational aids is something the Minister of Transportation and Communications is very much interested in because of the minister’s flair for flying. As you know, he is quite a pilot himself and he has been pressing the federal government to get on with the job of improving the navigational aids across northern Ontario. In most places directional beacons and this type of thing are a federal responsibility, because they operate the airways.

The installation of microwave landing systems is relatively expensive, I have to say to you.

Mr. Haggerty: Not that expensive for the safety it provides.

Hon. Mr. Bender: Well, $250,000 for a microwave landing system. Maybe what you’re referring to are directional beacons, which are around $50,000 or $60,000. But they don’t have the range you would need.

The microwave landing system is a sophisticated ILS system, which is the latest thing. In fact, they’re using them in many parts of western Canada now. They’re the most sophisticated landing system available to date.

But you’re quite correct; the directional beacons are relatively cheap. MTC and MNA are co-operating in putting those directional beacons in the remote airstrips of northern Ontario, like Sandy Lake and Big Trout Lake, the ones that the province is totally responsible for. I don’t have a list of those specific ones, but we are making sure they are being installed.

Mr. Haggerty: In our crossfire of interjections this afternoon, I did mention extending the services to the southern part of Ontario. The ministry is doing an excellent job in northern Ontario with the air services there. If I can recall, there was a study done a couple of years ago related to STOL aircraft by Bradley Air Services, that was to include areas around Elliot Lake to Gore Bay to Owen Sound and down to Toronto, and which covered the Niagara Peninsula.

The Ministry of Natural Resources has indicated it is going to open up the north by selling cottage lots. I would suggest to the minister that many of the highways heading to the north country will not handle the traffic. I would suggest if it is to be a successful program of selling these lots to people, perhaps many of them to purchasers in southern Ontario, a quick way to get to northern Ontario and to the cottage area would be by aircraft.

I would suggest to the minister that he should be looking at that study report which was done here about four years ago by Bradley Air Services, because I believe that it would encourage people from southern Ontario to buy lots further north. I’m talking of the Cochrane area and throughout that area, which is quite a drive from southern Ontario. It may eventually open up northern Ontario for the people of southern Ontario.

They would then perhaps have a better understanding of the climate and the atmosphere in northwestern Ontario.

Hon. Mr. Bernier: I have the information now for the member for Algoma with regard to directional beacons. They are to be installed at Fort Hope, Lansdowne House, Kashechewan, Webequie, Bearskin, Sachigo, Deer Lake, Kasabonika, Kingfisher and Wunnumin Lake. We’re moving ahead on that program quite rapidly.

In response to the member for Erie, I appreciate his interest and his comments with regard to our services in northern Ontario and his desire to have them spread into southern Ontario. I think it’s unusual that somebody from southern Ontario would envy something that is going on in northern Ontario.

Mr. Wildman: Northern Affairs handles everything north of Bloor.

Hon. Mr. Bernier: I recognize his desire to use our pilot program and extend it to the south and also, to make use of the cottage lot program. That’s something that we on this side of the House are encouraging. We like your thrust.

Mr. Haggerty: Even the tourists.

Hon. Mr. Bernier: Certainly the idea is a good one. We’ll dust it off and look at it. I would just remind the honourable member that we have something like 250,000 natural landing strips in northern Ontario. Those who will fit their aircraft with a good set of pontoons will have the use of one of those at very little cost and they’ll enjoy the wilderness aspect that those of us in northern Ontario cherish so much. There isn’t that urgent need to build airstrips all over and to get that air service. If they have an aircraft, one that will carry a good set of floats, then 90 per cent of the province of Ontario is at their command.

Mr. Haggerty: Like a Dash 7?

Item 6 agreed to.

Vote 903 agreed to.

Mr. Chairman: This concludes the estimates of the Ministry of Northern Affairs.

On motion by Hon. Mr. Bernier, the committee of supply reported progress.

STANDING MEMBERS’ SERVICES COMMITTEE (CONTINUED)

Resumption of the adjourned debate on the motion for the adoption of the May 4 report of the standing members’ services committee.

Mr. Speaker: Does any member wish to address himself to this report?

Mr. Warner: I understand also that the member for St. George (Mrs. Campbell) wishes to make some comments.

The members’ services committee has met several times to deal with the matter. Some people weren’t anticipating this coming up. I don’t know if there is any indication that the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Henderson) will be present this afternoon or not, because it does affect him.

[4:00]

We have been trying, as you know, to have some co-operation among all the members. The members’ services committee has tried to deal with the jurisdiction of the building for one thing and the movement of the secretariats out of the building for another. The assembly office is another matter.

We have been trying to deal with it in as good a working relationship as one could imagine. We have tried to deal with this in what I think is a very reasonable way as members of the assembly, in part removed from the political arena -- if you can ever do that in this setting, which I don’t think you can do entirely -- but we have tried to deal with it in a very amiable fashion. We have tried to be reasonable about it.

What we discovered first was that there was a commitment that the secretariats would move out and therefore the space would become available. We assumed it would become available under the direction of the Speaker for the use of the members and whatever services they require, but that move would take place.

We then were informed that it was going to be a bit longer than we had anticipated. Then the Minister of Government Services informed us that because of the new budget restrictions resulting from the OHIP decision his budget would be cut by $2 million. Therefore he could not guarantee that the secretariats would move out, because there were moneys involved in the moving.

Mr. Deans: It’s hard to believe that he’s really a lightweight in cabinet.

Mr. Warner: It is difficult to believe that that particular minister doesn’t have any influence in the cabinet, nor that he wouldn’t understand the recommendation of the members’ services committee or why it was made so strongly, about the movement of the secretariats -- that it must be effected as quickly as possible. We assumed it would be done during the summer.

One thing posed to the minister was, “You tell us that you are short $2 million now because of the new budget, but you have indicated that if the members were willing to move into the Whitney Block, you would put in a supplementary estimate.” Mr. Henderson agreed. Yes, he would be willing to do that.

I thought it was rather strange that if the members agreed to move into the Whitney Block, he could find money to do that by supplementary estimate. However, if we insisted on the secretariats moving out of the building he couldn’t guarantee the money -- there wouldn’t be any way of finding the money.

It seemed to be inconsistent to me, so we pressed on a bit further and I got the distinct impression that the minister was very reluctant to have the space freed up -- perhaps not so much because of the space being freed up but because it might then automatically come under Mr. Speaker and be removed --

Mr. Deans: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order if I may, the importance of this debate to all of the members is self evident. I would not want to have the debate proceed at this time given that there doesn’t appear to be a quorum since I am sure the reason for that is the members may not be fully aware of the fact that the debate is currently under way. I wonder if you would check, sir, to see if there is in fact a quorum.

Mr. Speaker called for the quorum bells.

On resumption:

Mr. Warner: I fully realize that members were not aware that this was going to take place right now; we were operating under the assumption that the estimates for Northern Affairs would continue for a bit longer. That is the reason why some of us weren’t here, including the Minister of Government Services, who has had an interest in this matter.

Someone commented to me, “What more can you say about the matter? We have dealt with it 50 million times.” If it has to be 50 million plus one, then it has to be said. The environs of this place are surely for the members as they try to go about their duties as legislators. That first consideration means that, in the view of the members’ services committee, the secretariats should move out of the building and free up the space.

It seems to me pretty straightforward that there are two or three things involved. Firstly, the government should clearly state its intention to adhere to the principle that this building is for the members and their services first and foremost, and that the building will be put to that use. That’s the first thing.

Secondly, the government should tell us when that’s going to happen. When is it that it is going to move the secretariats out? I think those are pretty clear items.

Thirdly, which follows pretty directly, in order for us to carry on in an orderly fashion from there on, all of the building should come under Mr. Speaker. That just follows reasonably and rationally.

Perhaps if we’re able to accomplish that, then we will know that each member of the assembly is going to get equal treatment with respect to the allotment of space and the kinds of services that are available so that each member of the assembly can try to carry out his or her duties in as straightforward and precise a manner as is possible. That’s not going to happen until we get a statement of principle from the government that the secretariats will move out; further, that the building will come under Mr. Speaker, and that that’s going to happen pretty quickly.

Now that the minister is here, perhaps he would care to comment on what seems to be a contradiction on his part when he said earlier that he could find the money by way of supplementary estimates if the members were willing to move into the Whitney Block but, because the Treasurer has cut $2 million out of his budget, it might be a problem for him to accomplish the move of the secretariats out of this building by a specific date. It might happen some time in the future, but he couldn’t make a commitment because the Treasurer has taken $2 million off his budget. That contradiction, I think, needs some explanation from the Minister of Government Services.

Perhaps today, in this debate on our committee recommendation, we could have an indication from the government as to precisely when those secretariats and the assembly office will move out of the building so we can then begin the task of being able to allocate space to members through Mr. Speaker, since the actual allocation of space to members belongs with the Speaker of the assembly. We can also then carry on with our work to make sure that all of the building comes under Mr. Speaker and that we don’t have any further difficulties.

As you know, Mr. Speaker, we spent some time trying to figure out how to get some permanent committee rooms so that when important committee work is going on we don’t have to scrounge around for a room. Our caucus has donated its caucus room on the last two or three occasions for one of the committees. The committee has come down, Hansard has set up its equipment and so on. That’s fine; we’re quite willing to do that. But it’s not exactly the most suitable location. It does make it difficult for people trying to find the committee, for example.

It certainly makes it difficult for the government staff who have to transport the equipment around and set it up, and for the Hansard people. There are a lot of important matters that have to be discussed.

[4:15]

Quite frankly, I don’t think that the members’ services committee can do much more useful work until we have solved this particular problem about the secretariats moving out, and secondly the principle of the building coming under Mr. Speaker. Until we have resolved those matters, it really doesn’t make much sense for the committee to continue to sit. That’s why you’ve got a report in front of you. That’s why the members’ services committee reported back to the assembly, because we’re anxious to have this matter resolved. Unless it’s resolved, there isn’t much point in our getting together every Thursday morning. It just frustrates our work, quite frankly.

I’m not sure exactly what other members are going to have to say on this subject, but I do know that some members, the member for St. George in particular and the member for Windsor-Sandwich (Mr. Bounsall), have been quite concerned and have put forward reasonable arguments to try to convince the government. I think we’ve spent a fair bit of time trying to put forward reasonable arguments.

Maybe we’ve reached a stone wall. I don’t know, but if we have, today is the opportunity for the government to break down the stone wall and explain whether or not they are willing to accept the principle, and secondly, when they’re going to actually make it happen.

I await comments from the Minister of Government Services and any other government members who wish to be involved, as well as the comments from my legislative colleague from St. George and any other members.

Mrs. Campbell: Mr. Speaker, I must first apologize. I had thought that the estimates would continue longer than they did, and I ought certainly to have been in the House when this matter was called. From time to time I have felt that I really was going to have to couch my concerns on a matter of privilege, because we have a committee which has been set up by this assembly and it has been frustrated for I would say two years or more in trying to get on with its work.

As my friend from Scarborough-Ellesmere has said, it is useless for this committee to continue to sit when everything we suggest seems to be a matter of concern to somebody else. As you know, we have tried very patiently to get on with this very small segment of our responsibility, which we view as a first step in trying to come to grips with this building.

We understand that the secretariats, by the commitment of the previous Minister of Government Services, would commence leaving this building in February of this year. What the member for Scarborough-Ellesmere said about the attitude of the present Minister of Government Services certainly filled us with a great deal of concern, because the minister seemed to indicate that he was not able to find the money, or might not be able to find the money, to honour the commitment of his predecessor.

I have been informed via the grapevine that perhaps he is going to move these secretariats, but we need to have it now in a stated position in Hansard so we know how to address ourselves to other problems.

There is no question that we need more committee rooms. Mr. Speaker has sat in this House longer than I have, but I would say that since 1973 the momentum of committee work has stepped up considerably and yet we really don’t have any more committee-room space than we had then. It is wrong that we should be trying to bumble along to get space for us to meet. Certainly one of the small committees could use the space of the offices of the Legislative Assembly. Surely the moving of that function cannot be a matter of significant cost to the ministry.

The question of the secretariats and the question of the offices of the Legislative Assembly are really only the tip of the iceberg of the problems of this building. May I say that coming to you and to the minister will be some recommendations with reference to the use of the east door and the north door. Our committee sat and wondered if we should send out a circular “to whom it may concern,” to try to find who bas the jurisdiction.

One of the government members on the committee was concerned about the lack of lighting at the east door, which is, of course, the door which most members have to use if they are sitting in committee after the dinner hour and the House is not sitting. We have been concerned about the fact that the north door is not available to us on Wednesday nights when we have been sitting, and sitting until late hours. We recognize that this may be a matter of concern from the point of view of establishing security and we are prepared to have an answer to that; but at the moment, it is pretty ridiculous to sit in that committee and try to determine to whom we should address our requests.

As Mr. Speaker knows, we have had a concern about the matters of the dining room. That seems to be before the Board of Internal Economy. We have made suggestions, but it is not satisfying to discuss topics and yet feel that we are not a part of the ongoing consideration of these matters, since they do come within our purview. I don’t know what has to be done to make the work of this committee more useful to this House. We come to the point where we have people writing expressing their concerns that some people have been asked to move from the building.

I would like to be corrected on this if I am wrong, but as I see it if this is the legislative building, in our view it should come within the purview and the prerogative of Mr. Speaker.

It is disturbing that Government Services is going ahead planning the rest of this building and acting in a vacuum as far as our committee is concerned. We feel this is something we ought to have a share in, since we were established to have input into the matter of members’ services, as the name of the committee implies. It seems to me a little ludicrous that we have to proceed with the point by point reports out of this committee. We start now with the secretariats and the office of the Legislative Assembly.

If, as and when that problem is resolved, I suppose then there will have to be a debate and a committee report with reference to room 228, for example. I really do not think it is useful for a committee to have to go piecemeal, a room at a time almost, to bring matters before this assembly.

It seems to me that the principle should somehow be established so that then there may be some orderly progress to enable us to provide the facilities that we see as important. Certainly we cannot do anything about the setting up of permanent committee rooms really until we have the committee rooms; otherwise we are going to find that there will be no committees able to sit. We have to carry on with this very awkward arrangement of committee rooms where there are microphones that fall over and are not permanently fixed. We have to wonder from day to day where we are going to sit.

I say to you, Mr. Speaker, this is a most inefficient way in my view to run a peanut stand. Yet this is the way we are running the assembly in the legislative building in the capital of this province of Ontario. I would have thought that we might have had a little more pride in ensuring that we have committee rooms which are capable of having public debates. As you know, we have had to use the NDP caucus room for some of our landlord and tenant meetings. It is estimated we had 300 people attend in one night, and there was standing room only. This is not the way we should be functioning.

I too want to hear from the Minister of Government Services. I would like to have an answer to our question as to when the secretariats will vacate this building and when the offices of the Legislative Assembly will vacate so that at least we can add one more permanent committee room. Maybe I am wrong and maybe we always did have so many committees, but I don’t think so. It must be an awful lot of work for the Clerk to try to shuffle this deck to find the room and the space for these committees to sit. I am sure he has more important things to do than that with his time.

I too am anxious to hear from the Minister of Government Services and trust that he will at this time be precise in his answers at least to the specifics of this report.

Hon. Mr. Henderson: Could I ask the last honourable member, as I heard her say in her last few words the office of the Legislative Assembly, what was she referring to there? That is the way I took her remarks.

Mrs. Campbell: I guess I should have said administration office, but I thought the minister, having sat in, knew what I was talking about, I’m sorry.

Hon. Mr. Henderson: I just wanted to clear that up.

First, may I make it quite clear to the House that as previously announced the three policy field secretariats are planning to move in August. That is our plan.

[4:30]

Mrs. Campbell: What date?

Hon. Mr. Henderson: I won’t give you a date. I’m saying the month of August.

Mr. Worton: In 1978 or 1979?

Hon. Mr. Henderson: August 1978. That is the present plan if nothing gets in the way. The move is scheduled to be completed at the end of August and work on the Whitney Block is proceeding on schedule. Money has been provided in the Ministry of Government Services budget for this work and we estimate that it will be completed within the budget. Almost the entire ground floor of the Whitney Block will be occupied by the three policy field secretariats. Some space is being retained by the Ministry of Natural Resources for their map and publication services and some space has been provided for the committee of the Legislature chaired by Mr. Breaugh.

There are three or four rooms which are now in reserve and which can be used if there is an urgent need, although it might be appropriate to keep them for some future expansion of a policy field secretariat. Let me clear that up. If there is an urgent need, like we ran into with Mr. Breaugh -- he needed a room for his committee and we put them over there.

With the exception of the policy field secretariats, all of the functions presently contained in the building are closely connected with the operation of government. These include the office of the Premier, the cabinet office, the offices of the Speaker and the Clerk of the House, the office of the Legislative Assembly, the Hansard office, the press gallery, the legislative counsel and the Ministry of Government Services legislative services office.

The space vacated by the policy field secretariats will be made available for the members of the Legislature. When these areas are added to the area presently occupied by the members, it will be possible to provide each member with more space than he presently occupies.

The Ministry of Government Services designers are working on an appropriate way of utilizing space allocated to the members in the best possible way. It is hoped that the proposed changes will be approved by all parties so that work can commence when the various areas are vacated by the policy field secretariats.

A major reallocation of space during the time the building continues to be occupied creates a problem of timing. When certain changes have to be made prior to other changes, the work tends to become drawn out. No funds have been allocated or budgeted for these major alterations in the legislative building. No estimate of cost has been prepared since the design work has not advanced to a point where it can be used for the estimating purpose.

The question of the member for Scarborough-Ellesmere was whether it was possible to have all the responsibility for the building under the Speaker. He also asked when the policy secretariats were moving out. Both he and the member for St. George asked that.

Have I answered that clearly? The present plans call for the policy secretariats to move out in August of this year and over to the first floor of the Whitney Block.

The next point concerned the Wednesday night meetings of the committee. How many Wednesday nights does the committee meet? One, two, three a year? I’m sure that special arrangements can be worked out if that’s a problem. But I don’t think any member of this House would request that the north door be left open every Wednesday night of the year because of the two or three nights a year a committee is going to sit. I don’t think we would want to be that extravagant with the money of the people of Ontario. I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that when there is a committee meeting on Wednesday nights your office or the office of whoever is accountable for it at that time could certainly make arrangements to see that the north door is open, if that’s a must.

Both members made some comments with respect to the complete building coming under the Speaker. At this time, I would reject that proposal. The Minister of Government Services is looking at office space for 125 members. The Minister of Government Services is convinced that all members elected to this Legislature are entitled to an office in this building. As I brought to the attention of the members’ services committee a few weeks ago -- it’s too bad the chairman of the committee was not there that morning; we did have a very good debate.

Mrs. Campbell: I’ve read it.

Hon. Mr. Henderson: I regret she was not there because we did. I brought out the point about the problems we are faced with in this building. I did have the opportunity to view a map that was presented to the committee a week or two previous to that. That map did not leave sufficient space for the operation of the assembly.

As I mentioned, I am convinced that the press, Hansard, and the legislative counsel are part of the operation of this assembly. I repeat that I want all members to be accommodated in this building. As it stands now, there are not 125 offices available in this building to give the members the size of an office that was recommended or that I believe members are entitled to.

I suggest that the government doesn’t plan on turning over the complete building to the Speaker. The government doesn’t plan on turning over any of the offices held by the government or the government staff. We are certainly ready to continue with shared accommodation, with the Speaker taking care of the necessary staff for the operation of this assembly and being in charge of the offices of the opposition members. At this point, that is as far as I’m ready to commit the government.

I don’t believe it’s completely in order in debating a report like this, but I would be glad to answer one or two questions with the Speaker’s consent. Before I do that, I have a report here on all of the other provinces in Canada. I find there are two of them in which Mr. Speaker has control of the legislative buildings. There are others where Mr. Speaker has control of the legislature and the corridors leading to it. But, all in all of the 10 provinces, there are two where Mr. Speaker has complete control.

Mr. Warner: What about the federal government in Ottawa?

Hon. Mr. Henderson: Mr. Speaker, with those few remarks at this time, we as the government don’t plan on turning over the offices that we or our staff have, to you.

Mr. Young: Could I ask a question for clarification?

The minister mentioned that he wants space in this building for the 125 members, but it doesn’t seem to me that space is needed for the 125 members. We’re not expecting to move the cabinet ministers of this province out of their luxurious apartments. They’re there and they’re established. They have quarters which are adequate for them and would be adequate for three or four other ordinary members. We don’t need 125 accommodations here but just for the members who are not in the cabinet. That cuts down the requirement quite considerably.

Hon. Mr. Henderson: Mr. Speaker, I don’t want to cause a dialogue but with your consent I would answer the question. I’m sure the honourable member has been around exactly the same length of time as I have been. Over those years, I am sure that he has met with --

Mr. Deans: He has worn so much better.

Hon. Mr. Henderson: Yes, I would have to admit to that. He has worn very well.

Mr. Deans: So much better.

Hon. Mr. Henderson: He has worn very well, in fact, excellently. The political party with which he has been associated really hasn’t damaged his looks one particle. In fact, they’ve improved with age, the same as the minister’s. We would be in agreement with that.

Mr. Deans: That’s true. You carry the weight of the world on your shoulders. I’m surprised you do not have more weight in the cabinet.

Hon. Mr. Henderson: I’m not too concerned about that. That really isn’t a concern of the minister.

Mr. Deans: You should concern yourself with it.

Mr. Warner: He’s got the honour.

Hon. Mr. Henderson: Didn’t you hear the Minister of Northern Affairs and his comments?

Mr. Warner: He’s