Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 4A (25th Legislature, 1st Session)

25-1-4a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISL AT IV E ASSEtv1BLY OF MANITOB A 2:30 o'c lo ck, Tuesday, Oc tober 28th, 1958 Openin g prayer by tvlr . Speaker . �ffi. SPE AKER : Pr esenti ng petit ions Readin g and recei ving petitions Pre sentin g reports by stand ing and select committ ees Notic es of motion Intr oduction of Bil ls Ord ers of the Day HONOURABL E DUFF ROBLI N (Pre mi er ): Mr. Speaker, befor e the Ord ers of the Day are calle d , I thin k it would be fitt ing if I were to make mention of a very signific ant even t indeed , of which we hav e just rece iv ed news.

And that is the ele ction of a Supr eme Pontif f in the person of Car din al Roncelli the Patr iarch of Ven ice , whom we are told has just been chosen Pope and is taking the name of John the twenty�third . This is an ev ent which is of grea t signif icance, part icula rly to our Roman Catholi c fello w ci tiz ens in thi s pr ovince and is a matter which is foll owed wit h the deepest of interes t and concern by all men of peace and goodwill thr oughout the world .

I feel that it is fitting that speaking in this Chamber as I do now, and per haps if , and I make this assumpti on for the people of the Pr ovi nce as well - to express to His Holin ess, the new Pope , our congr atula tions on his election, and our pra yers and good wis hes for a peaceful and Holy Ponti fica te . MR. D.L. CAiviPBELL (Leader of the Oppositi on) : Mr . Speaker , I am sur e that all of us can join most heartily in the expre s sions that the Honour abl e the Leader of the House has just made .

I thin k that all of us would join too, in the statement that a wonderful contr ibution was made, not only to the huge con greg ,ation that he served thro ughout the world , but to people of other congr egations as well , by the la te Pope Pius the Twel fth, and I thin k perhaps we could wi sh the new Pontiff no grea ter success than that he shoul d follo w the example of that gr eat and , good man . This is a ti me in the world 's history , lvlr .

Sp eaker, when so many part s of the world ar e tense and tr oubl ed, that the infl uence of one per son in such a high office can contr ibute much to the steadin ess and the soli dar ity , and the ult imate benefit of the world as a whole . And I am sure that the reco rd of the recen t

Pon tiff has been one that has gi ven us great en couragement to look forw ard for a tremendou s co ntrib uti on from His Holi nes s wh o has just been elected by the Cardi nals in Co nc la ve . I'm sure that all of us rea lize the tremend ous respon sibil ity he und ertak es as we ll as the great honou r tha t has been bestowed upon him, and we wou ld join ,a ll of us, rega rdless of our faith, in wishing this new Holy Fathe r the ve ry gr ea test of succ ess in the very gr ea t posit ion to whic h he has been elect ed. MR. E.

PREF ONTAIN E (Caril lon ): H. l1 0rateur , je cr ois qu1il m1appartient comme le doyen des deputes ca tholiq ues de ce tte Cham bre de re mercie r chal eureusement le Premie r Mini str e de la gentil lesse qu1il vien t de temoig ne r a notr e egard et de l1 acte d1 homme d1et at qu1il a pose en ra ppella nt a l'attent ion de cette Ch ambr e le fa it que l1 Eglise ca tholique du mon de entie r vient de se ch osir un nou veu ch ef da ns la pers on ne du Pape Jean XXIII . Je n1e tais pas au coura nt de ce tte grand e nou velle jusqu1il y1a une ou duex min utes alors que M.

Ca mp bell, le ch ef de o1 0ppos it ion m1a av erti que M. Roblin fera it la presentation de ce tte nou ve lle . Je tiens a le re merci er . Com me de ra ison tout le mond e ca tholique depuis quelques jours vit dans l1 esp oir que bi en tot la grand e nou vell e sera it repandu a tra vers le mond e que l1 Egli se ca tholiqu e avait un nou vea u Pa pe . L' Eglise ca tholique comme vous de sav ez c1es t l' Eglise univ erselle.

La pr ovi nce du Manit oba se deva it il me semble de poser le geste depos e auj ourd1 hui par le Premi er Minis ter et je tiens 1'-1onsieur l 10rateur a ass urer le nou vea u ch ef, le nouvea u Pa pe Jea n XXII I la plus en tie re soumi ssi on de ces sujets ca tholiq ues de ce tte Provi nce et lui ass urer les vo eux qu1ils fon t - des voeux sinc eres pour un regne fruct ueux et long . MR. L. STIN SON (Lea der of the C. C.F. ): I am sure that the members of my party wo uld wan t me to asso cia te our group vJith these expressions of goodwil l tow ar ds the new Pope, His Holi nes s John XXII I .

His responsibility in the wo rld is a ve ry grea t one as lea der of such an impo rtant church body . �e ce rta in ly wish him well in his wo rk . I should li ke also to take this oppo rtunity of payi ng a tribute to the long servic e and gr eat wo rk of the la te Pope Pius the Tw elfth. He was a gr ea t church lead er and we wish to giv e our expression of good will to all peopl e of this fa ith . MR. M.A. GRAY ( Inks ter): Mr. Sp eake r, may I say a wo rd as a member of the Jew ish Ra ce .

Th e Pope is not onl y head of many, mil li on Roman Cat holi cs, he is also a wo rld 's man; a man who is stri vi ng for a goal of pea ce , freedom and a better wor ld to li ve in . In a pea ceful and democ ratic wo rld we hav e a better chanc e to maintain our trad itio ns in our own li fe. So I am ver y happy to join the others in expr essing good wish es to the new elected Pope . HON. JOHN CA1\.ROLL (Minis ter of Public Utiliti es): l":r. Spe a ker, before the Orders of the Day I have a couple of announc e ments to ma ke,. 2

\tvithin rec ent �<'eeks the Gove rnment has been giving con si deration to the proba ble future power requirements of Northern Manitoba, as we ll as to the extent of v.rhich these requir ements should be antic ip ated and provid ed for. Th ere are at pr esen t very impor tant mi ne ral devel opments taking pla ce in the Snow Lake region. Th ese and other im portant mi nerali zed regions of Northe"rn Mani toba ar e wi thin economic reach of the Kelsey genera ting station for the transmi ssi on of reaso nab ly la rge blocks of power.

In ad dition to these resources there ar e lar ge band s of pulpwood within the gene ra l vic inity, and we beli eve tha t the avail abil ity of powe r could prove help ful in sti mulating the ea rly estab lish ment of a pulp and paper indus try in this ar ea . Also impor tant I believe, is the fact that extensi on of the Kelsey station wo uld add to the reliability an d co ntinu ous produc tion and employment at Thomp son .

In view of these im portant cons i dera tion s, the Gov ern men t ha s as ked the Man;itoba Hydro Elect ric Board to mak e plans to proc eed with the additi on of No. 5 genera ting unit and the rock exc01va.tion for No. 6 at Kelsey. Th is addi tion wi ll add 42,000 horsepowe r to the install ation at Kelsey ; thi s will bring the total generating ca pac ity at Kelsey to 210,000 horsepower , giving it slig htly la rger ca pac �ty than the Seven Sis ters Station of the Board, whic h is pr esently the large st station in .Manit oba .

The cost of this expa nsi on is estimat ed at appr oximat ely fi ve mil lion dolla rs. I might ad d, ��. Speaker , that in reac h ing this dec is ion the Gov ern ment ·was in fluenc ed by the fac t that making these arr angements now we ca n be as sured of this add itiona l power being avail abl e by 1961. If this dec isi on had been dela yed until the co mpl etion of the numb er four unit we might hav e en co un tered ci rc umstanc es und er whic h delays of two to three yea rs co uld be invol ved, dependi ng on the deli ver y of equipment and other consi dera tio ns .

You wil l no te from this that it is in ac co rda nc e with one of the main rec ommend ations of the Arthur D. L. Littl e Report. I am very pl eas ed with the enthu si asm with whic h my co lleag ues have ac cepted and expressed their fa ith in the future of the nor thern pa rt of this Provinc e. �\. SPEAK£R: Orders of Return. The Honourabl e Member for Spring fie ld. NJR. Vv. LUCKO (Spri ngf ield ): Mr. Speak er , I "lr'ould like to move, second ed by the hono urabl e member for Dufferin, that an Order of the House do is sue. Return showing: (

l) Is it the inte ntion of the Gove rn men t to co ns truc t five mil es of I-Iighv.'ay West of the Town of Bea usejour conne cti ng Provinc ial Trunk Highvray No. 22 and Provin ci al. Trunk Highway No. L}?

(2) If it is the inte ntion to build the said road, to '''hat standard is it to be built and is it the inten tion to incor porate the road in the Provi nc ial Trunk Hie;hway System?

(3) If it is the inte ntion to build the sa id roa d, v.'hen is const ruc tion to co nunen c e? (!+) If it is the inte ntion to buil d the said road, by VThom will the cost of const ruction be borne, c:.tnd by viha.t percen tages. 3

��. Speaker presented the motio n and as ked if they wer e ready for the questi on. MR. LUCKO: .t.·�. Spea ker, the onl y reaso n for that is to make some cla rifi ca tion to the people of my consti tuency . I had great pleasure on the 24th of October with the Honourable the Fir st Mini ster , to attend the �ater Works open in g of Beau sejour, and hi s co lleag ue, the Hono urable Mi nist er of Public Work s had a c compa ni ed him .

I have made great effort to list en to the great sta tement that the first honourable member has spoken to the audience there, and his words were these: He v1as trying to play a fi ne lit tle fellow hims elf - "that v.re ar e - that you ne ed the roa d and we ar e going to con struct you fiv e mil es - in fac t he said six, but it is onl y fi ve on the •.•....• and that's what it is . He said si x mile s of road to co nnect you v.:ith the No. 22 Hig hwayn . Now if that is the case why , no t too long ago a delegat ion fr om Beau sejour attended wit h the Honoura ble Mi nist er � Public vJorks .

The Minist er of Public v·.orks has promi sed that to them, that they will cons truc t that roa d and wi ll cons truct this year . Now if that is the cas e, the people are approa ching me ti ll this day and say ing 111Jvhat is ha ppenin g''. Well I says I am sorry to tell you that becau se I'm af raid the Min is ter is so busy election cam pai gni ng now that he hasn 't got the tim e to look at it -w hic h was got to be built in the firs t place. Furthermore, this is a ve ry impo rtant conne cti on.

It wasn't too long that a prog ram, all of you have on the fil es, honourable members that sat in that House - the 1957-58 progra m , when that pr oject there was the No. 22 was const ruct ed. Now from that ti me we fi nd that the roa ds No. 4, No. 59, No. 22 ar e all wai ting for the No. 4, whe re the people got to go Ea st . The pe ople of Beau sejour don't lik e a sta tement of that type . The stat ement must be made clear to them wh at standard of that roa d - how is it going to be buil t, and no t any propaganda being spr ead , which is to my opinion purely poli ti cal pr opaganda.

Let the hon our able Mini ster, I challe nge hi m - get up and tell the people in the Eastern area wha t's done and when, and the people will be quit e sa ti sf ied . ��. Speake r put the question and aft er a voic e vot e decla red the moti on ca rrie d. ��. SPEAKER: Second Reading, Bil l No. 7. The Honou rabl e Min i ster of Labour . HON. JOHN Tnm1 PSO N (Mi ni ster of Labour): ��. Speaker , I move , seconded by the Honoura ble the Attorney -Ge ne ral , that Bill No. 7,

An Act for the Relie f of Denn is Beaudr y be now read a secon d tim e . r-�. Speaker presented the moti on, put the questi on ancl after a vo ic e vot e declared the motion ca rrie d. :tvL.TZ. SPEAKER: Bi ll No. 13. The Honou rable the Minist er of Agr icu lture. 4

HON. ERRICK WILLIS (Minister of Agric ulture) : Ivlr. Speak er , I beg to move, sec onded by the Minister of Education , that Bill No. 13,

An Act to amend the Veter inar y Sci enc e Schola rship Fund Act , be now read a sec on d ti me . Mr. S�eaker pr esented the motion , put the question and after a voi c e vo te dec la red the motion ca rried. MR. SP E AKER: Adjourned debat e, Bil l No. 2. The Honourable Member for Rhin eland . MR. VJ .C . MILL ER (RHI NELAND) : .V.tr. Speaker , my firs t wo rds must be words of congr atulat ion s to the new Minister . ·He made a ver y able presenta tion when he moved sec ond rea ding of this Bil l.

He stuck to his text , wh ich was the text of the Bill and the text of the Bill in turn was the text of the Co mmissi on Report. I sinc erely co ngrat ulate him , I hope that he will co n tinue to make sim ilar cont ri buti on s in this House. If I may , I wou l d just like to give him a litt le bit of advic e. And I am sure that he wi ll ac c ept that advic e, wh ich is given sinc erely and in order to be helpful .

He is a new Minister and altho ugh he had co n sid erabl e experien ce as a sch ool trustee and as a muni cipa l offic ial , his experie nc e in thi s House is some what li mit ed ; and his experi enc e as a Minist er somewh at li mited. And I wo uld li ke to suggest to him , tha t it is in his ov.'Il int erests that he make available to the House , al l the in forma tion that he ha s in the past , made avail a ble to other sourc es.

I think it is the duty of any Minister of the Cro wn , when he makes a report, or int ends to submit Legislat io n, to cons ider the wishes of the House first , and then provide suitable publicit y. Now, Mr . Speaker , it was suggested by my honou rable friend the Leader of the C.C.F . Party the other day that I might be ver y pleased with this Bi ll . May I say sinc erely that with the prin ci ples co nta ined in this Bil l I am in ac co rd .

Those of the honour a ble members who ha d the pri vil ege of sitting in the House for some conside rable ti me, wil l remember that for many years I have stressed the great er benefits of the la rger area of sch ool administ ra tion existed at the secon dar y level , and for that stat ement , Mr. Speak er , I have been sev erely chast ised . Not only by my honou rable fr iend the Leader of the C. C.F. Pa rt y, but also by the Honourable the Firs t Minis ter .

As a matter of fac t, I was acc used of lack of lea dership in promoti ng larg er areas of the Daup hin- Ochre type, and co nce ntra ting my efforts on promot ing . areas at the seco nd ary level . I think many more co nsiderable efforts than my honou rabl e friend , greate r eff orts than we re made by any member of this House! •....•... .-wel l, I'l l come to that •• well the co mpeti ti on wasn't too keen Mr. Speaker. And now wh at do we find . \•ie ar e fi rmly commit ted to the desir abil ity of establ ishing divisions or areas at the sec ond ary level.

We are fi rmly co nwitted in ac c ordance with the stat ement s by the Minister , to the promotio n of these divisions or ar eas , and I think that that is a good thing . I am happ y indeed that the Royal Co mmissi on in it s Int erim Report stated ••.• rec ommended this type of organiz at ion to the Gove rnment . I am ha pp y too , that the Gov ern ment 5

threw ov er its o�� poli cy, or lac k of polic y, and ado pted the Co mmis sion report . And so Mr. Spea ker , my Honoura ble friend the Leader of the C .C .F . Party is ind eed ri ght when he .says that this Bill in pri nc ipl e, should meet v:ith our ap prov al ••••..•..• \'Jell I wi sh you wer e ri ght in other mat ters as well , but general ly in other matter s you're ab solutely wr on g . It ha s been prov en so so many tim es . Now I've stated that in princ ipl e, that \•Je agree with this Bill .

I would li ke an explanat ion how ever , how the Govern ment ca me to ad opt a polic y tha t was fi rst initiated in this Cha mber at the ins ta nce of the Lib eral-Pr ogressive Party . V'.'hat was the Govern ment polic y? V'Vhat wa s the Govern ment policy on educ at ion? I suggest, Mr. Speaker , they ha d no ne - and the interim report was a ve ry time ly on e for the Gov ernme nt.

We had an elec tio n just a few mo n ths ago, and in the pre-el ec tion ca mpaign my hon our able friend the fir st Minis ter we nt up and dow n this Prov inc e promis ing greater educat iona l support , and what did he sa y - "Put me in pow er and I will inc rease ed ucatio nal gra nts by fifty per ce nt ." This promise was made unc ondi tio nall y, no stri ng s att ache d and ha d some effec t in the ca mpaig n. He wa s returned as the Leader of the largest group in the South. He is en trusted with the reig ns of Gove rnment . How does he propose to redeem those electio n pledges?

Can he si nc erely suggest that this Bill will redeem those unc on ditio nal pledges of an in cre ase of fi fty per ce nt. Mr. Speaker , not by any stretch of the im aginati on ca n the ado ption of this Bill redeem his ca mpaign pledges� I would like to dis cuss now some of the aspects of the Bill . I ha ve sa id that we in tend to support this Bill in pri nci ple. \ve wi ll have some observa ti ons to make in Co mmittee an d I wi ll draw ce rtain things that in my opinio n could be impr ov ed , to the attent ion of the House.

The Legi slat ion requir es that a Boun dary Co mmis sio n be set up and ·vJi th that id ea I am in full ac c ord. I think it is highly imp ortant tha t the people on that Commis sion should be men an d women of wide knowle dge , of sympa thetic under standing: men and women well able to co pe with the many problems tha t they wi ll fa ce in even ar ri ving at the boundar ies that they v.ill select. I am quite sure that the Mini ster intend s ver y shortly, no w that he is prac tic ally as sured of the pas sa ge of his Bil l, to announce the per son nel of that Com missi on.

It 's a ve ry im portant Co illiilissi on , beca use not only have they the right to def ine boun daries of propo sed divis ion s , which will re quir e a vo te , but they al so have pow er to recom en d to the Minis ter that certain sch6ol di stric ts may be set up as a di visio n without a vot e, and that would mean , I don 't know how ma ny , but certainly it would in cl ude the City of Vdnnip eg , whi ch woul d be - could be set up as a di visi o n; perhap s St . Jam es; St. Bonif ace may be, and others who have their requis ite size and as sessment.

I v.rould like to suggest to the Co mmis si on, throut;h the Minister , that they hold meeting s, several meetings in each div isio n, in order to hear repre sentat ions and hear any suggestio ns as to proposed boun daries . The Min ister has indicated that that wi ll be done. I think , too , that the idea of follm dng this up with an educati on ca mpaign is very im portant , an d I was quite 6

pleased 1tlith the announc ement that the Hinist er and his col leagues wo uld educate the people and try to sell this secondary division idea. As a ma tter of fac t, in spi te of the stat ement made by some .•.. or at l�ast ••.. I am quite prepa red to supp ort that - I am quite prepared to supp ort that and I onl y wish that when I invited honourab le members opposite that they ·v.rould ha ve given me a fav oura ble answer ..•.••. And may I sa y, Ivlr. Speaker, that honou rab le members opposite wer e ve ry co nsp icu ous by their ab sence when any meeting promoting the sec on dary area 1tJaS held. MR.

ROBLIN: Your plan's no good. :tvlR. MI LLER: My hon ourable friend sa ys my plan is no good, and yet his pl an is an extension of mine ••••••• And it ca n't be co ns trued otherw ise., •• r •• And it ca n't be co nst rued other�.oJise . MR. ROBLIN: Ask the Royal Com mis si on . MR.. MI LLER: I mean I can read even if my hono urab le friend ca n't . MR. ROBLIN: ••.•••.• you read the fi rst chap ter. MR. MILLE�: •..•. I thin k that if , at these meetings the educat ion al values of thi s organiza tional set-up should be em phas ized; as well as the monet ary ad vant age. I might say , Mr.

Speaker, to my hono urable friend that we were ab le hy education and many meetings to establi sh four sec ond ary are as , an d.that with out the tariff . And I think tha t ·with the induc ement now offered that there should be no di fficulty in getting a great ma jority of the people to agree to this type of organizat ion al set- up .

As I hav e sa id before, the general as pec ts of the Bill follow very , very clos ely - in a grea t many ca ses, the same lang uage has been used - and I think that the only thing that is coun ter to the rec ommendati ons of the Commis si on in co nnection with the fi nanc ial set-u p is the method by whic h the muni cipa l levi es , general levies , will be dis tributed . The Minister may correct me if I'm wro ng.

I think the Co nnis sion env isa ged that the general levy v.rould be sen t by the munic ipalities - col lect ed and sent by the municipali ties to the Provi ncial Trea surer , and that the dis tributi on would be made from here. I might say that I have no fault at all to find with the provisions in the Bi ll wh ereby the Div is ion Board act s as the di stributing agency .

I think that's a good thin g, because thi s is merely a substitut io n of the Divi sio n Board by the munic ipa l ities or instead of the mu nici palit ie s, the Division Board ac ts as the distribut ing ag en cy. · There are certain grants that �.orill be paid out. v>e are rather in the dark as to just what they mean, and I cer ta inly wou ld expect the Mi nister to give us the fullest inform ation . on the formula at least in Comm ittee. I think he should give us the fullest info rma ti on on the type of regulati ons that he pro poses to estab li sh in order to effec tively administer these grants .

I think , as a matter of fact , and in thi s case I am in 7

agr eement wi th my honour able fr iend , the Fi rst Minis ter, th at wher eve r possibl e, and whe re ver pra ct ical , the ter ms of the for mula , if it is a simple one , should be embodied in the legi slat ion itsel f. And I' m not quit e sure what the Mi nister had in mind when he said that he had to prop ose some amendments in Commit tee - it may be just that. I hope that he gives ve ry, very ser ious con si dera tion to this suggestion. Certain ly these factor s will be bro ught out in Committee. I am

part icul arl y intereste d in the scal e of teachers ' sal ar ies at the maximum under which these gran t s will be paid . I thin k it is ve ry impor tant that we should have full inform ation as to the graduat ed scale, if any , under which these reg ul ations wi ll be establis hed. I am anxious to fin d out whether or not he prop oses to accept the reco mmendation of the Royal Commiss ion on page •••• I can't fi nd it just now - at any ra te he kn ows what I mean I'm quite sur e - that is the ele mentary sca le and the secondary scale - 73?

I think that 's ver y import ant because if , I don 't know what the effect of this scale would be but it pr o vi des - I don 't know whether the Gov ernment intend s to adopt the mer it syst em, the merit rat ing system of teachers . No doubt the Mi ni ster will infor m us fully on that at the pro per time. Outside of makin g gran t s ava ila ble to divi sions and school dis tricts who vot e themselves in the di vision, there is only one defi nit e pr oposal that affect s all schools , and that is the pr ovis ion of free text books.

The other provis ions are con di tional , and the Mi nister 's estimate of money req uired to fin ance these operat ions are absolut ely cond itional upon the peopl e vot ing themselves into a divis ion. There is no pr ovisi on in the Bi ll , nor does the Gov ernme nt intend , accor di ng to the statement made by the Minist er , to brin g down furth er le gislat ion hav ing to do wi th school gran ts. I think the gran t s pr oposed in th e Bill , once we get full in format ion , might be fo und to be sati sfactor y .

But I wonder if no furt her acti on in connection wi th school di stricts is pro posed at thi s Session. I wonder whether the First Mini ster 's conscienc e wi ll not bother him a bit when he re calls hi s un condi t ional pro mise to incr ease gran ts to school dis tr icts by fifty percen t .

I thin k he should take into co nsid erat ion the fact that v.rhere di stri cts, for some reason or another, do not accept the reco mmenda tions of the Commission, and do not suc cumb to the persu asive powers of my honour able fr iend, that they too should be given some considera tion in order that the hon oura ble, the First Mi nist er may slee p well , and not be bothered by bad drea ms , because certa inly the offer - the pr omis e, was uncondit ional. And I think that the people of Manit oba would expect him to make good his promi ses.

I am awaiting with a gr eat deal of in tere st a statement fr om the min istry on that part. I think the House is entitle d to it. I hope to get it . Mr. Speaker , as I hav e said at the outset , it is not my purpo se to go over the var ious

section s of the Bill . I think these matters can best be attended to in Committee. I want to re -emphasi z e that we wi ll be askin g for ful l and compl ete in forma ti on as to the reg ula tions , as to the scale for teachers ' sala ries pr opo sed as a maximum, as to the enroll ment formul a,

and certain ly we ar e going to suggest that where ver possible , these be incor p ora ted in the statute rat her than in re gul ations . Mr. Speaker , as I hav e indi cated in the beginnin g , "'·'e are prop osed, with res erv ations that I hav e made, to suppor t this Bill, we think it is a good one, I'm very glad in deed that it al so has been endorse d by the Winnipeg newspapers . I was rather amaze d to see my fri ends of the Tr ibune so heart ily en dorse this secondary di vis ion idea . Howev er , they are all in accord wi th the ideas of the Commission .

I hope that this leg islat ion as the Mi nist er has ind icated, I si ncerely hope that this legi slat ion wi ll do much to improve education standard s in Manit oba. MR. ORL IKO W (St. John ' s): Mr. Speaker , I beg to move, seconded by the honoura ble member for Burr ows , that the Debate be adjourn ed. MR. ROB LIN : I hav e no objection to the Debate being adjourned, but I would li ke to enquire whether · there is any other member of the House cares to speak on this subject at the pres ent ti me. The Bill has been before us now for some few days.

The Mini ster made his statement the other day and it occur re d to me there might be members \lllho were re ady and wil lin g to speak at the moment ra ther than adjourn . I hope that we wi ll have a rel ativ ely free debate on this, and rat her.t han have an adjourn ment after every speech, that we pr oceed with the di scLJssion as best we can in the manner that I hav e indica ted, so while I am not pro posing to object to this adjourn ment, I would like to plac e before the House, f.,fr.

Speaker , the pr opositi on that the Debate should be allow ed to continue fr eely because after all the facts are now before us. tviR. .3TINSON ................ case in this House, and we do not adjourn debates if someone el se wish es to speak. MR. CAMPB ELL: Mr. Speaker, the honourable Fir st Mi nister is corr ect in this and al so the honoura ble the Leader of the C .C. F. is correct that first - that we should tr y to make all conv enient speed in matters of this kin d .

And on the other hand, it is an extr emely importan t Bill, and in case that it is the feeling, for any re ason , that the honourabl e member who ro se to ad journ the Debate, because after all there is a good many new members in the House, and they may not be aware of the pro cedure that my honourable fr iend the lea der of the C.C.F.

Part y has mentioned - and coul dn't we agr ee that if someone else is wil lin g to speak, that the ho noura ble member ·who had fir st ri sen to adjourn the Debate, mi ght have the adjourmn ent '"'h en the time comes, so there is no question of any unseemly rush to get the adjour runent? That being the case, I v' ould think that we should have the unders tandin g that if anyone is pr epared to speak that all he needs to do is stand up in his pl ace and say he is pr epar ed to carry on. I'd agree . MR . ..JPEAKER: Do any members wish to speak on the Bill at the pr esent ti me? 9

MR. SP EAKER : Moved by the honourab le member for St . Jo hn 's seconded by the honourable member for Kild onan that the debat e be ad journed . Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote decl ar ed the motion carrie d . MR. SP EAKER : Adjour ned Debate on Bill No. 3. The hon our abl e the member for Fl in Fl on. MR. F.L. JO BIN (Flin Fion): �� .

Spe aker, at the outset of my rem ar ks I fi rst of all want to thank the honoura ble , the Mi ni ster of Min es and Resources , and the Act ing Mini ster of Industry and Commerce fo r his fi ne co mpl iment s yester day , both to myself and my predecesso r , in admitti ng that the departmen t over the years has been doin g a rea sonably good job, whil e maybe la cki ng some of the tools , yet he di d agree that it was announced that things had been re asonably wel l admi ni stere d and carr ied out. As a matter of fact , Mr.

Speaker , he was so sin cer e and so enthusiastic about that partic ula r statement that I think it was at that time that he re ferre d to me as the Mi nist er , so I thank him doubly for the compl iment . I re gr et though to notice that the First Mi ni ster saw fi t to couple the re sponsibilit ies and the duties of the Mini ster of Mi nes and Resour ces with that of Industry and Commerce . I know the honourable Minist er is a ve ry capabl e and able man .

I al so know from experien c e that the work entailed in Industr y and Commer ce is of such vo lume that it req uir es a full time Mi nister , reg ard less of how capable he happens to be . At this time , deal in g with this Industr ial Bill , and while it1s unr elat ed, I do beg leave of the House to compl iment the Govern ment and the Jvlinist er of Public Util ities on their statement s that they re ad this after noon concern ing the extension of the Kel sey Power Si te .

The members of this House know that has been a lon g - the matter of Nort hern power has been a pet subject of min e for at le ast the nin e year s that I have been in the House, and so I do com plimen t the Gov ern ment and the Mi ni ster on behalf of the people of Nor thern Manitoba. I welc ome the intr oducti on of this

part icula r bill because I think it is something that wil l benefit industr y in J.vlanit oba as the Mini ster mentioned yester day . But I think, just for the rec ord , that we should perh aps re member that this is not some thin g new; it is not something exactl y that can be cr edit ed to the' pr esent Gov ern ment solel y . And the Jl'lini ster di dn 1 t attempt to do that yesterda y, but I think for the re cord s, v1e should bear in mi nd that this has been und er cons iderat ion for not so very many years .

And I would , if I may , re fer to som e re marks that I made last year in the House, that at that time I stated that the Departm ent of In dustry and C ormnerce had been awar e of the need for capital and the establ ishment of a Loan Fund -- I pointed out that in 1956 when the Govermnent was pr epari ng the Br ief to the Royal Commission on Canada 's economic pro spects, that a study of the pres ent sources of inve stment was made . I al so mentioned last year that in 1 956 the Business Advis ory 10

Council had been instru cted , and did carry out a study of lo an fund s and the possibilit y of establishment of community develop ment corp or ations , and again I would re min d the House that it was in 1956 that some thought was given to asking the Ar thur D. Lit tlee · Corporat ion to loo k int o this matter of industr ial lo ans , and I think it was in 1957 that they were actually commiss ioned to do just that . Last year the re port was turned in and it is par tly on the re commendat ions of that re port that this Bill is being im pl emented .

I think , too , that in considerin g this Bill , the merit s and demeri t s of it , that it woul dn 't be amiss if we went over some of the things that I mentioned las t year . At that time I had poin ted out that we had sent copies of this Art hur D. Li ttle report to members of the Busin ess Advis ory Council , to members of bus iness her e in Manit oba, and asked their opini on. And I think in dis cussing this today or this year we should give at le ast some of the thoughts that wer e expre 3sed by some of the peopl e that we referre d thi s Bill to . Last year we grouped them in to four cl asses .

I re port ed that manufacturers gener al ly agr eed with the id ea of a lo an fund. I pointed out that the inves tment and fi nanc ial people of the pro vince were of mix ed opinion and that opinion was di vided . Some inve stment fi rm s re cognize d the need for such a fund , others cl aimed that the Industr ial Devel opment Bank was fulf ill ing this

part icula r fi eld and that they shoul d be le ft to it. Some of them point ed out that the high risk in fi nancing smal l business under takin gs was endangered ; some point ed out the effect of the Pr ovin ce 's cr edit standing if such a Bill were impl emented, and others pointed out the res entment that might be cre ated when one parti cu lar fi rm mi ght be assisted and the other one was not assist ed. I rep o rt ed too , the opinion of a very wel l kno�� , though I didn 't mention him by name, nor do I do it now - but the opinion of a well known Canadian economist.

His main obser vat ion was on the type of management resp onsibl e for the pr oject. He suggested that the chief executive offic er should be dr awn from pri vat e indu stry ra ther than from govern ment sourc es . And I am pl eased, 1:-'lr. Speaker , to note that this Bill di ffers fro m the A.D.L. re por t in that re spect . The A.D.L. report talks about theDeputy Mi nis ter and Provinc ial Tr easurer , and seve ral per sons fro m governme nt should be on the Loan Board. This Bill takes the opposite stand and attempts to, and I think does , cr eate a re asonably indep endent board .

The fourth group that we con sult ed was the genera l gr oup. They wer e generally in agr eement with it .

However , there were some perso ns that thought the need for a loa n fund should be in vesti gated st ill furt her, and I would li ke to, if I may, re ad just a par agraph from what I said last year , having said these things - I said: "T his is where the situation stands today . vvll il e many see the need for pr ovidin g add iti onal capit'3.l for business and industr y in our compl ex economy , and have found favor with the A.D.L. pr oposal , others accept the necessit y of such an undert aking, but feel the pr oposal before us should be modi :fied to a gr eater or lesse r extent .

A fu rt her gr oup has in di cated qual ifie d or un qual if ied opposition to the scheme"• 11

Now, l-1r. Speaker , I would li ke to point out too , that the lea der of the Opp osition, the fo r mer le ader of the Gov er nment , certain ly show ed sympathy, more than sympathy rathe r, for the establi shment of either a fund .•.• To show this I woul d li ke to quote fro m his submission to the Domini on-P rovin cia l Conferen ce. I belie ve it v.ras in 195 6 , and this is what the Leader of the Opposition , at that time , said - "A national re sour ce de velop ment poli cy is not only desi ra bl e, but essenti al.

It is equal ly desira ble an d essential if we are to have a tr uly sound and well balanc ed nati onal economy. But the Federal Gov er nment adopt pol ici e s designed to pro mote the devel opme nt of secondary indu stry in pr esently le ss highly indus tr ial pro v inc es of Canada. At the same time , the scope of activit ies of the Industr ial Develop ment Bank should be br oadened to ena�le the Bank to assist serv ice .industri es, such as reta il stores , motels and other tour ist fac ili ti es. So import ant do we bel ieve these matters to be Mr.

Pr ime Mi nist er, that v.re ur ge that special consi deration be giv en to ways in which the national gove rnment can aid materially in encouraging the develop ment of industrie s throu ghout all part s of the Pr ovi nce" . I re ad that para grap h and my for mer re mar ks to this House to ind icate that this is not somethin g enti re ly new on beh alf of the pr esent go ver nment , but something that was considered , it certai nly was not defi nit ely carried out nor was it defin itely rej ected by the former gover nment . Now la st year again, and I think v.re ar e all concern ed wit h this .

I menti oned the fact of dupl ic ation. It is reg rettable that we should hav e to establish in Manitoba an industr ial loa n fund that is a dupl icat ion in a large degree, to the In dustr ial Develop ment Bank . But I would suggest, �-1r. Speaker , that in vie w of what has happened over the past year , la st 2 or 3 years, the Provinc e of Manit oba has no other alt ern ative. Again, re ferr ing.to what I said last year - I said : "W e would prefer to wait until after the fede ra l el ection befor e do ing anythin g specific on this ." I mentioned at that time that both pol itical

part ies wer e showing some concern for small industries , and that both had made pr omises of do ing something about it . So I say, Mr. Speaker , in vi ew of the fact that nothin g has been done by the Federa l Gov ernment since that elect ion, then it behoov es this pr ov inci al govern ment to do something about it. If I might again put something else on the re cor d , :V!I". Speaker .

Refer enc e has been made on news re le ases, and I do this because th e Opp osition or the Gov ern ment at this time , li ke to take cre dit for the things they are do ing - and I give them ful l cre dit for it - but I would li ke to put something el se on re cord. That is the matter of the Win kl er Co-O pera tive Canners . The Minist er was most fair yester day. He di d acknowl edge that the pr evious gover nment had something to do about it. Unfort unately there are only 57 memb'ers in this

part icula r House, and too many people don't rea lize and don't reco gnize th e admissi on that he made yesterd ay. But what I am re ferr ing to is the type of pub li ci ty that goes out. I suppose all is fair in love and war - but I am re ferr ing to the type of publici ty that was a news release fro m the Depart ment of Indu stry and Commerc e on August 29th .• and it said "The :tv!anitoba Gov ernmen t has stepped in to 12

assist in th e lon g ter m fina ncing of an aggres sive co-ope rative cannery at Winkl er by guaran teeing a $50,000 lo an" Continues, "Mr. Gur ney Ev ans , Mi ni ster of Industry and Commerc e said Frid ay that Cabinet by Ord er-in-Cou nc il has author ize d the guaran tee to Co-Op Pra irie Canner s Ltd.11 And then another quote of Mr.

Eva ns : '' This exampl e of pr ivat e and govern ment co-oper ation in hel pin g to pl ace an industry on a fi rm fi nancial footing, is the type of thing the govern ment has in mind in setting up a pr ovi nc ial In dustri al Loan Fund" • Again, I admit that all is fair in love and war, and I' m not making too muc h of a complaint about it , but I do want to put it on rec ord as the Mi ni ster hi mself said yest erday .

But as the re port of the Pre ss or the Pr ess rele ase di dn 't in August , I want to put it on re cor d that it was the former gov ernmen t that starte d the ball rollin g in re gard to the Winkl er Co-O p Canners . Now, re ferr ing direc tl y to the Bill, I had indi cated that our Par ty wi ll support it . I congrat ul ate the Minis ter on br inging it in, and I pers onally congra tul ate him because it contains a

section in ther e that I intro duc ed or suggested in a Thr one Speech Debat e in 1956 . At that

part icular time I advoc ated the establi shment of a half a mill ion dollar re volv ing fund from which the opera tors of tour ist camps could lo an money to impr ove their facili ties. So genera lly speaki ng, we are extre me]y please d wi th the Bill . But there are certa in things in the Bill that we object to - cert ain things that in the Committee stage I intend to in tr oduce amendments on . And I can assure the Mi ni ster and the Gove rn ment that an y objections that I make here today, specif ically to the Bill , ar e not meant to obstru ct , but rather to impr ove the Bill.

Now re f err ing to the Bil l as the Mi ni ster di d yesterday , to the purp ose of the Bill . The Min i ster took the Bill and he said the pur pose of the Bill was to pro vid e fi nancial assistanc e to the opera tors of new and existing manufactur ing industri es, tour ist accommodations, community develop ment corp ora tio ns; to enc ourage peopl e to invest funds in industry in Manit oba; pr ov ide technical and business advi ce to promot e the di versific ation of business activit ies in the Provinc e.

For some unknown rea son, the Min ister mi ssed readin g one cla use that I certain ly object to and that is to pro vide financi& assistance to the oper ators of such other businesses as the Board may designate from time to.time . Mr. Speaker, I contend that we, the legi sl ators , who are going to author i ze this and to approve money, we should be entitl ed to know the types of business that are going to benefit by thi s lo an plan .

I think it is on ly fair and pr oper that we should , but to inclu de something like th� in the Bill as the Board sees fit they can desi gnate the types of business, I thin k that is not fair to we, the legi sla tors .

And if the Gov ernme nt still thinks this is fi ne and dan dy, I might warn them that they might fi nd themselves in the bad predica ment that was re ferr ed to by the member fro m, I forget the constit uency, but the Board , with this type of power might even get them selv es into the horse racin g industry , and so I suggest for their own pr otection that they had better do something about that part icular aspect of giv ing so muc h power to the Board itself . 13

No-w the 1-- linister, in the Throne Speech, and then again yest-erday, refer red to - I shudder to think of it - but he talk�d about loans 0ithout securiti or whether security could be waived. Again, I su�gest to the Minister, not to be overly criti cal, but to be constructi ve. Surely the people of ��nitoba and we the legislators are not �oing to set aside five million dollars and be responsible for any other debent ure� that the corpo��tion may issue; sur ely we are not coing to say that this Bo�rd tan loan money without some type of security. So I sug gest that this matter should be looked into as well.

Another principle that seems odd and irregular in the Bill is that :v.rhefeby the Board can increase or decrease the rate of interest. I suggest, l·1r. Speaker, that this is just a shade too· much power to leave in the hands of the Board, and if the House doesn't want to set the ra te of interest as firm and fixed and it can only be changed by Legisl ature, then at le ast I suggest thatthe increasing or decreasing of the rate of interest should be a matter for Order-in-Council rather than to empower the Board to do just that • .

The Bill also as I read it, permits the Board to acquire and dispose of property on their o:vm initiative. I would sug gest t;.he other Bills - I think of the Liquor Control Commission, at least if it doesn't, I think it says, I am positive that they cannot acquire or dispose of property of the Liquor Commission unless :Lt has the approval of the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council and . .our own Act spells out the amount of money they can spend on buildings and that type of thing. And so I suggest this as another rather irregu lar situation and should be attended to.

Now there i.s a report in the Free Press, and just the shake of a head :vdll indicate to me, that I ask the Minister, surely this cannot be right that this report of Free Press October 25th, ·it .. says: nvtr. Evans, together ,,,ith two of the dir ectors and one other officer of the corporation will form the executive commit tee!l. I don't think ---, v.'ell I an.l glad to hear that that isn't true, because the reading of the Bill indicates that the executive comm:Ltt ee are the ones that are going to process the loans, and it would be a very dange rous feature if the Minister were to be on the executiv e.

I am clad to hear him say that he is not on the executive •.... Very good. And so havi ng made these three or four objections on just three or four points, having also mentioned the fact that some credit for the establis hment of getting this thing on the wheels, on the rails, goes to the. former administration, I do want to close by saying that we consider it a good Bill - if the govern- .ment v:ill consider making or accepting certain amendments. We regret however, that the Industrial Development Bank or that Ottawa has not seen fit to broaden the terms of the I. D.B.

Bank, but then v'e can't be too critical of that because :vrhen we ,,,ere in your position and another government was in Ottawa, we tri ed and weren't too successful either. So, having seen no success in broadening of terms of I. D.B. there was no other alte rna tive for the pr.esent Minister but to introduce this par ticular type of Bill. Personally, I arn sure that it :v.rill be of great benefit for the advancement of industry in Manitoba, and :v.re are prepared then to endorse this legislation. 14

MR. SPEAKER : Ar e you rea dy for the question? MR. C. L. SHUTT LE\' ;ORTH (Min nedosa) : I move , seconded by the honourab le member for Car ill on , that the debate be ad jour ned . Mr. Speaker put the motion and aft er a voic e vot e decla re d the motion carri ed . ��. G. MO LGAT (S te . Rose): Mr. Speaker , the matter of Farm Cr edit is one that we have di scussed on several pr evious occasions in this House, and I think it's fair to say that in the past, we hav e found a fair measure of agree ment on th is question of farm cr edit . Last ye ar I pr oposed a resol �tion in this reg ard .

The Honour able the First Min ister spoke on it , and by and lar ge, we agree d , firs t on the matter of need ; that the cost pri ce squeez e, the need for di versi ficat ion as a re sult of that cost pri ce squeez e; the desire of the farme rs � the necessity, should I say, in fact , of establis hing economic units, so far as size is conc er ned; the fact that many young far mers found it extre mely di f'fi cult to get on to an economic basis of far ming today; the fact that under the prese nt av ai labl e capital supply for farm ers , many were exclu ded , such as ra nch ers and other s who re nt lan d. v've agree d to that .

Vve agreed to that, sinc e that's what it needs . I think we agreed reaso nably well , also , that the sourc es of capital were not satisfactor y . The mor tgage companies were no- lo nger int erested in pr ovi di ng lo ng term capi tal for farm use. The commerc ial bank s are only intere sted in the shor t-t erm capital a�d , further mor e, many far mers found it extre mely di fficult to get even that fro m the banks . The Canadian Farm Loan Board was not sat isfactory for many purp oses,

part icula rly here in the Provi nc e of Manit oba. We found that 15 ,0 00 li mit was too li ttle . 1:ie found that the basis on which the lo an was made, that is, stri ctly on the pr oductive value of land , was insufficie nt . So , on those points, I think we hav e ful l agree ment . We did not , howev er , have agr eement on the methods by which more capi tal should be avai la bl e to farm ers in Manitoba. I might say that in spit e of th e Bill that's pr esent ed here , I can say at this stage that I pr opose to support the Bi ll , wi th many amendments, but pro pose to suppor t it .

But I still say that what we we re saying last year is the ri ght stand in sofar as the supplying of lo ng-t erm capital to far mer s in this Prov inc e, a.nd' I'd li ke to lis t again , for the int erest of the First Mini ster who debated this with me last year , that I still have an imposing li st of people in the far m fi eld who agree "Ii th me .

The two pr ovi nc ial farm bodies ; the National Farm Gr oup; the Saska tchewan Royal Commission on Agr iculture and ctural Life; the annual conf ere nc e of provi nc ial Mini sters of Agr icul ture , and sinc e the Bill has been pr esented to the House, once again, the le aders of the two far m gr oups in Manitoba hav e stated their case, agre eing wi th what we ¥ere saying here last year . However , our honoura bl e fri end di dn't agree . He made this one of his elect ion prom ises . I must say he "r on the elect ion and 15

now he is propos ing to imple ment that pr omise. I commend him highly for that action and I assure him that it is my intention to see to it that all of his el ection prom ises are li ved up to, if I can do so, on the condit ion that those promi ses ��11 provi d e good measure s for the Pr ov ince of Manit oba. I pr opose to assist him in this Bill to the point of making , I hope, a very good Bil l out of it by the time we are thr ough \\ lith it . I still think that there wasn't enough pre ssure put on his honourabl e frien ds in Ottawa to make the changes in the Ca nadian Farm Loan Board .

I thin k that was one of the pla tfor ms of his Federa l Party prior to March 31st , and I think that they could well have been asked to proc eed on that platf orm and make those changes. I still say that settin g up a Pr ovin ciai Boa�d is dupl ication - dupl ication of ser vices - dupl icatio n of costs. Howev er , we have the Act befor e us and the job, as I see -it , is to make a good Act out of this so that it wi ll work here for Manit obans. So as we come to the committ ee stage I pr opose to have a number of changes that I thin k we should incorpo rat e in this Act.

I rea liz e that this is not the time to go over cla use by cl ause the matters in this Bill , but I thin k some of these could be consi dere d as pr in ci ples . For exampl e, I propo se to make a change in the make-up of the board of direc tors so that of the five members as pr oposed, two of them should be the nomine es.of the two major farm groups in }� nitoba; one the nomin e e of the M.F.U . , and one the nominee of the l'-I.F.A.C. I think they shoul d be taken.in t o our confi dence in thi s matter and their valua bl e experi ence should be used to make this Act one that will work for lvfanitoba farmer s.

Pro posed too, that wi should have changes in the typ e of securit y that is acceptable for loans under this Bill . I notic e that in the other , should I say compl ementary bill , providin g capita l for in dustry, there seems to be muc h more lat itude in the type of secur ity given or acceptabl e, and I thin k that we should give thi s consid erat ion in this Bill as well. One of the gr eatest weaknesses of the Canadian Farm Loan Board for la rge sections of Manitoba is that far mers in those areas simply could not qualify . By those I mean the ran cher s, and those people who are operat ing on ren ted la nd .

The ran chers in particu lar - take my own constituency as an exampl e alon g the shor es of Lake i�n i toba - the normal pra ctice is to own a quart er

section of lan d , generally lo w pric ed, and then they proc eed to le ase or ren t two , three , four sections . Now under the basis of the Canadian Farm Loan Board , those peopl e wer e al most compl etely exclu ded because they di dn't have cult ivated la nd as a rul e - it was simply pasture, gr az ing la nd- it was ve ry lo w value la nd . A �::;reat deal of it in those mu nic ipal ities v1 as ava ilable for a dollar an ac re , simply to get it on the tax ro ll s of the munic ipal ity . So those people were exclu ded . Now, it seems to me that this Bill simply doesn 1 t go' far enough on this basis .

It is well and fi ne th at v,re say that forty per cent can be made up of other chattels , but that simply isn't enough. If to start with , the amount of lan d owned by an indi v idual is only , say a quar ter secti on, at - le t's be fair - five dolla rs an acre , �$00.00; it simpl y doesn't prov ide him with any possibi li ty of a lo an . That , in r::J.Y opin ion , re quir es a change. 16

Anot her b�sic weakn ess of the Bill , as it stan ds before us now, is the rat e of in terest that the govec>n men t p rop oses to cha rge . The Mi ni ster sa id yesterday that the rat e has been set at si x percen t so that v·e vdll not comp ete ·1.dt h the Can adia n Far m Loan Boa�rd. In short , Mr . Speake r, I ca n on ly co nc lud e from that stat ement that the Mi ni ster wa s telli ng us that it is the in ten tion of the gove rn men t to presen t this Bill an d put up the rat e of in terest so high that people , inst ead of comi ng to · it , wi ll go back to the Can ad ia n Far m Loan Board .

It is the in ten tion , app aren tly, to disc ourage people from comi ng un der this Ac t in ma ki ng ap plic ation for a loan . That wa s - I see the Honou rable First Mini ster shakin g his head . I didn 't expect hi m to agr ee with me but if - fortunat ely the Ha nsar d isn 1 t operatin g qu it e as quick ly as I vr ould li ke and I ha ven 1t got exact copies of the Mi nist er 's speech as yet , but m� not es ce rtain ly in di ca te that that wa s his sta tement - that the rat e of si x perc ent wa s set up so as not to compet e wi th the Can a di an Farm Loan Board . I beg your pa rdon � lv'L't .

ROBLIN : Just your in feren c es are inc orrect . NR . MOLG AT : M y in feren ces . Oh v1ell now , I don 't see wh at other in feren c e co uld be ga thered fro m that • :MR. RO BLI N: You 'r e ent itl ed to yours - I' m not compl ainin g . lV:R. I··'lOL GA T: Thank you very muc h. The 11Iini ster is very kin d toda y . MR. ROBLI N: I 'm al ways that """ ay . MZZ. lv.LOLGAT : I ha dn 't no ti ced alw a ys . Ho·wever, it does seem to me tha t thi s rat e is defini tely too hig h .

If the in ten tio n of this Bill is to assi st farm ers, an d that is what I want to see done wit h this Bill , then I pr opose that we shouldn 't be se ttin g rates of in terest that tend to disc oLrage people . We should be settin g rat es of in ter est that wi ll ma ke this Bill '-::orkable an d that wi ll enc ourag e peop le on the con trary to come to us an d borrow mon ey. It is the on ly way that this Bill wi ll be of any value . Th e mat ter of in terest rat e we can refer to the Ca nad ian Fa rm Loan Boa rd for exampl e.

The y loan at fi ve pe rc ent , yet we tu rn ar oun d and fin d that they are borrowin g in turn from the Mi nis ter of Fin anc e - the last borrowings wi th a rat e of 4. 37 5 percen t ; the prev ious borrow in g , 4 .1 25% ; the previous borrowing , 4% ; yet wit h a ra t e of 5% they still ma na ge to show a pr ofi t on thei r operat ions , last year somethin g in the order of ;200 ,000.0 0. Now surely it isn 1t the in ten ti on of the governm en t to ma ke this Bill - this Ac t - a money ma ki ng pr oposition for the Provin c e of l-1anitoba . Surely the int en ti on is to assist the far mers.

Th ere fore the rate of in terest should be ba sed on that pr in c iple an d that prin c ipl e al one . Ta ke , for exampl e, someone '-"•h o would get a loan of ,p25 , 000 .0 0 und er this Act . That is t 1e max imum set ; I thin k it is a fair an d reason a ble max imum . That dif ference betw een fi ve an d si x perc en t means $250 .0 0 a year additi onal 17

in terest to the bor ro wer - that is in the fi rst year . It wi ll decrease natura lly as the capital goes do wn, but in the fi rst year , �250 .00 ad dition al in tere st . That is a la rge amount of costs. In fact , it's more than our honoura bl e frien ds in Ottawa hav e felt was a good payment to make under the defic iency plan that they had pro mised durin g the electio n . That has worked out to $200 .00 maximum to any farm ers . My honourabl e fri ends acro ss the way now prop ose an interes t ra te which would be even more than that . Charges cost .�250 .0 0 on the maximum loan allo wed them .

Nov.r on that basis then, that the Canadian Farm - that our Bill should be for the pur pose of assis tin g the farm er s - not for the purp ose of making a profit , I feel that it is impor tant that the rate of intere st should be red uced fro m what is reco mmended . On that matter of pr in cip l e, �� . Speaker , I pr opose to object to this Bil l at this time , and I want to make it ver y cl ear that this is not a matter of obstr uc ti on. It is not a matter of not want ing to have this Bill go thro ugh at this Sessio n of the Legi sla tur e - I am very anxious that it do .

But I am only anxious to see thi s Bill , provided that it is sati sfactory to the people of· Manito ba . On that basis , M r . Speaker , the expectation th at the changes will be made whe n the Bill is pres ented back to us, I propo se to move, seconded by the honoura ble the member for Birt le -Russell, th at Bill No. 8 be not now re ad the second time but that it be reso lved that in the opinion of this House, the rat � of in teres t charged on loans to farm ers be not more than five perc ent per annum. Mr. Speaker pr esente� the res ol ution. MR. SHE\IvMAN: Mr.

Speaker , I wi sh to move, seconded by the honoura ble member from Riv er He ights that the debate be adjourn ed . Mr. Speaker pr esented the moti on and after a voice vot e declared the moti on carrie d . MR. SP EAKE R : Adjour ned debate on Bill No. 12 . The honoura bl e member for Radisson. MR. R. PAULLEY (Radisson ): Mr. Speaker, in taking

part in .the debate on this Bill , I do so because to me it is of gr eat impor tance. Und er the ci rcu mstances , which we have found our selv es here in Canada, as in many other juri sdicti ons in the wo rld in rec ent years , I mu st say at the offset that it is my firm convic ti on and belief , and I hav e no hesitat ion whatever of saying so in this House, that under our pr esent economic system of society, that we can look forw ard for year s and years , of the necessity of such types of legis lat ion as this .

Because, notwithstandin g the ri gors of wint er or cli mat ic changes, und er a pr oper pl anned system of society we would not ha ve to be worryin g about givin g of dole s fro m publi c tre asuries or methods of this manner in or der to pr event the necessity of the appl ication of able- bodied indi vi duals to apply for social assi stance or the li kes of that , because in the context of the Bill , it cl early states that one of the purp oses of the Bill is to provide some work or means of 18

recei vi ng rem uneJrat ion from those who have exhausted their unemployment in sur ance benefits and would become publ ic charg es. Hav ing said that howev er , Mr. Speaker , I do say that a Bill of this nature is needed under the ci r cumstances. I was somewhat amused the other day to see one of my old neighbors , so calle d , to tell us - who is now the Min ister of Labour - to tell us that the brig ht, brig ht sunshine has peeked thro ugh the clo uds of re cessi on . As a matter of fact ,. Mr.

Speaker, accor din g to the la st ava il abl e statis tics of the Bur eau - Domi nion Bur eau - we had about a hundred and twenty-od d thousand more unemployed at the beginnin g of August of this year than we did a year ago. I wonder whether my honourab l e fri end is aware of that? And start ing out wit h 188 ,0 00 (approxi mately ) of August ls t , of 19 57, by March of this year we had reach ed ab out 61 7, 000 people he·re in the Dominio n of Canada seeking work .

And if we start ed at that figur e la st August wi th a hundred and twenty-odd thousand less than we ar e start ing this year , I would suggest to my honoura ble fri end , the Mini ster of Labour , that he take off his rose- tinted gl asses and peer into the .futur e in the li ght of stati stics . And I' m sur e that one of hi s honourabl e coll eagues there , who is such an expert on statistics , would help him in his peerin g and see what of I speak coul d well be a rea li ty. We certainly do not look or hope for that .

We al so are hopin g that the future wi ll be far better than the past , but we must face the situation real isti call y . t·Jh.ile this Bill does intend to pr ovide cert ain publ ic works in co -operat ion with the federal and muni cip al gov ern ments for methods of all evia ting for this win ter the situation, I think that the situation is deeper than that . Now, as to the Bi ll it sel f , I woul d have one or two comments to make , and I am some what concerned of the munic ipal rel ati onship wit h .ideas such as this .

I had the honour of becomin g the .tvlayor of Tr anscona back in 19 46 , and at that time, Ivlr. Speaker , we were still paying for works which were inaugurat ed by the last Conserv ative Gov ern men t alon g the same basis as this is bein g pr oposed today , and I cer tainly hope that the cont r ibutions of the Pro vin cial Gove rn ment and al so of the Federal Govern ment to the munic ipal ities wi ll be of such a nature , that 15 to 16 year s aft er the expenditur es have been made , Muni ci pal Councils are still not having to provide out of their curr ent reven ues for such pr ojects.

I think it is some times quite correctly said , that Conser vat ive times are har d times, and if we reflect back to the years in which a similar prog ram was set up of thi s - was start ed (and I' m re ferr ing to the 30 's), I sincerely trust that the method of approach in this and the carryin g out of it will be di ff eren t . However , we w�lc ome this measur e as an immediat e stop- gap.

I would say to the honourab l e Min ist er and some of the pr o grams that are outl ined here in the Bi ll it self , that some of our hort icultu ral ists would be quite intereste d in how, und er our cli mati c condit ions that makes it impossi bl e for us to go ahead wit h many works , we 'r e going to be able to plan t trees? Other sections of the Bill I' m sure , Mr . Speaker, we wi ll deal wit h in second submittage. But I would just li ke to say 19

again , in refer ence to this , that whi le we re cognize the need for this at the pr esent time , we still reco gniz e that win ter unemploy ment despit e cl imatic condition s , will be wi th us \1-:hile we hav e the system of society under which we are livin g . MR. SPE AKER : Ar e you rea dy for the question? MR. GRE ENLAY : I move , seconded by the Honourab le the Ivlember for Rhinelan d , that the debate be ad journed . Mr. Speaker pr esented the motion, and after a voice vot e decl are d the moti on carrie d . FIR. SPEA KER : Adjourned debate, Sp eech fro m the Thro ne and the amendments there to .

The Honoura ble the Member for Radis son. MR. PAULLEY : Mr. Speaker, in takin g par t in the Thron e Speech , I thin k that it is rather unli kely that I will speak on the main motion, so at this time I would li ke to offer my sincer e congratu lat ions to you on your election as Speaker of this House . Having had the oppor tunity, though only for a brie f time , of knowing you perso nall y, I can say, in my opinio n, the House could not have chosen a better indi vi dual to be our guide and our lea der here in the House, and ther efore congratu l ate you.

I would li ke al so, Sir , to congratulat e the mov er of the addr ess to His Honour . As has been said by speakers who pr e ceded me, he had acquitted the honour wit h di sti nction and I am sure that he is a va lu able asset to the Govern ment 's Par ty and wi ll make his pl ace heard , and heard well , in this Assembly . To the mover of the -- to the second er of the reso lut ion , I mi ght say, Mr. Speaker , that we hav e had one or tw o dealin gs before . He is a gentl eman whom I'v e al ways honour ed and res pected , and he al ong wit h the honourable member for St .

Vit al and my sel f at one time was on a board of ar bi tra ti on in a la bour di spute . I' m ve ry glad to re port to the House that on that occasio n we were able to come to a unanimous dec ision, each of us gi ving a li ttle and each of us taking a lit tle , and I say to you, Sir , we lc ome to this House li kewise . To our new Pr emier , I would congra tulate him on his move across the floor , and while his way may not be a ros y one and while it may or may not be brief , dur ing his tenur e of office I wi sh him every succ ess.

He is a man for whom li kewise I have every res pec t. , And I would say of the now Leader of the Opp osition, Mr. Speaker , that the other day when he was speaki ng, I believ e it was on the rep ly to the Spe ech fro m the Thro ne , he took on him self a lot of the resp onsibili ties of the defeat of the Liber al Prog ressi ve Govern ment .

I think that we , the ci tiz ens of Mani toba, and par ticu larl y the younger cit izen s of our provinc e, owe a gr eat debt of grat itude for the work that the Honoura ble Leader of the Oppo sition has done in the past, and I hope will continue to do in the futur e for the benefit of us al l. And I would li ke , Si r , to say this comment , in deferen c e to his re marks the other day , that I noted that duri ng the el ecti on that all too many of his so-calle d follo wers either omitted for one 20

re ason or other the fact that they wer e supporters of the honour abl e gentl eman, and I re gr etted it very much . And I have no hesi tation in sayin g that wer e my philos ophi es the same ph ilosop hies as those held by the Leader of the Oppo siti on, I would holler them to the roo f tops and support him fully, and I think, Mr. Speaker , that that is one of the reas ons why the honoura ble gentl e man is sittin g whe re he is rat her than opposite . Not because I' m an old- t imer , because certa inly I1 m not, I would li ke to say a word of welc ome to the newcomers in this House.

I1m sure that be your stay lo ng, or be it short , that you wi ll fi nd many good things come of the associ ation of fel l ows of differ ent vi ews, differen t re l igions , nationalities . You wi ll fin d them good fell ows at heart . And I would li ke just to quote a word or two fro m one of the great ci vil ser vant s that we ha d in the Pr ovin ce of Manitoba . I don 't just re member them ver batim, �� . Speaker , I' m re ferrin g to Murray Fisher who was the guiding lig ht of the munic ipalit ies for so many years . I shall never for get his words when he said - "Do what you thin k is rig ht .

You might not win the next elect ion , but at least you 'l l be able to hang your head on high." ' And now, Mr. Speaker , ins ofar as th e Thr one Speech itself is concerned , I' m going to be ra ther brie f , but I woul d li ke to make one or two comment s on the poin ts contai ned in it . It will be noted , and I' m sur e tha� every body expect s it , that any amendment that we put forw ard fro m this gro up would be sociali stic in nature . I' m sure that ther e was no_ di sappoin tment because it was. And why?

Why should we say that we fir mly belie ve in the inaugurat ion of the public owner ship of natural gas - the public di stri buti on of natural gas.

It is quite lo gical for us to say that because we beli eve that the natural re sources of the ci ti z ens of this great Domin ion, and of thi s Pr ov ince, ri ghtly belon g to the people and that in the explo itation of those natural reso urc es duri ng our time , which inc idental ly , may be deplet ed for genera tions yet uriborn, that the benefit s �ccr u�ng fro m them should be � should accr ue to the ci ti z ens concern ed , wi thout profit to indiv id ual s or to corporat ions . · This social ism isn 't a new thing , �� . Speaker , it has been going on.

My honoura bl e fri ends to my ri ght and to my le ft , and their resp ective par ti es, hav e been part and parce l of the inaugurat ion of many of the things that we consid er today to be commonpl ace - whi ch years ago woul d have been considere d radi cal and sociali stic . Every time we go to the post-box and pic k up a lette r socialis m is in pr actic e. Ev ery time we turn on the tap' at home social ism is in pra cti ce. Here in the Prov inc e of Manit oba, thanks to the develop ment of our power in recen t years , ever y time we turn on a lig ht glo b e we have socialis m . So , Mr.

Speaker , a few years ago, fro m the gover nment , then led by the Honourab l e Member of the Opp osition, thought that it was wi se to take over the di stri but ion and the generat ion of el ectr ical energy here in the Pr ovin c e of Manit oba. Even the new Mini ster of Publ ic Utilit ies to day , .announced a further contr ibution alon g the same li ne, so when we say in our Resolu tion that we believe in public owners hip of this, that and the oth er , we are onl y carr yin g through those basic pr in ciple s 21

which we belie ve in, and whi ch our other two major parti es, only when it suits their purpo se, adopts. For instan ce, just rec ently we have had a commi ssion travell ing the len gt h and br eadth of the Dominion of Canada to deal wi th the monopoly on air tra nsporta ti on. We have ind iv iduals who, I am sure , that ascri be to the pol icies of either the Conser vat ives or the Libera l s appear ing before that commi ssion, opposing the monopoly wh ich is now held by the Tr ans-Can ada Air Lin e s because it is no good, it 's mono polis tic . And yet on the other hand , �� .

Speaker , al so vital questions of the dis tr ibution of gas , we hav e the adoption of a rep ort which rec ommended a monopoly for the Gr eater Wi nnipeg area by pr ivat e �apital as against publ ic ownersh ip. So I say, Mr. Speaker, that while both Li ber al s and Conserva tiv es wi ll adopt , and have adopted in the past , socialisti c ideals , they do it at the time when it just suit s them and don 't applj it thr oughout all of their utteranc es, and the times wh en th ey have the power . It 'l l come !

The public ownersh ip of the di str ibution of gas wi ll come just as sure as I' m standi ng here saying so today ; just as sur e as many of the other socialistic ideas that hav e come fro m this corn er of this House hav e been instit uted into the le gisl ation of the Pr ovince of Manit oba. We 1r e consid er ing such questions as hospita liza tion, how we re call on the intr oduction of res olu ti ons by our group in the past , the heads of both the pr esent goverrun e nt and the then gov ern ment heads put their hands up and shouted "Horro rs n.

It 1s on the Statut e books of the Dominion of Canada and the Pr ovin ce of Manitoba today : Impro vement s are necessary ! Of cour se they 'r e necessary and we , if we wer e elected the Gover nm�nt of the Pr ov inc e of Manit oba, there would be no question of those impr ovements. , The Honourable the Mini ster of Publi c Ut ili ties, in his statement today , told us of the add iti ons that ar e going to be made to the plan t at Kel sey, out of public funds . Vv'hat is the purpo se ?

So that the vast , vast natural reso ur ces of our nor th la nd can be exploited and deve l oped for privat e capi tal , and we say , wi thout hesitation or equivo cation, that rev enues that are going to be deri ve d from that expl oitati on shoul d accr ue to the benefit of the people of Manitoba to a gr eater de gr-ee than it has been in the past . Yes, Mr. Sp eaker, we hav e just fin ished fighting an elect ion . In that elec tio n there V�rere thr ee

part ies who laid a pr ogram before the ci tiz ens of �anitoba , and as a re sult , we 're here today , al l of us elected . But I do say this , and I say it most sincer ely , that of the three

part ies that ar e here today , there is but one who di dn 't hav e to concoct election pro paganda be fore the election and will not hav e to do it when the next el ection , whenever it may be, wi ll not have to concoct it again. We stand by our basic fundamental pr incip les and when those pr in cip le s become the establi shed pr inc iples of the peopl e of Canada , we will have a soci ety in which we il l all be pr oud of , ev en those who now oppose us . Mr. Speaker re ad the motion and called for a vo ic e vo te.1 MR. GRAY : Mr. Speaker , I beg to move , seconded by the honoura ble member from St .

John 's that the debate be adjour ned . Mr . Speaker re ad the motion and after a voic e vo t e decla red the motion carrie d . 22

MR . SP EAK ER : for Fi sher. Prop osed re sol ution , the Honour able Member M� . P. WAGNER (F isher ): Mr . Speak er , the subject matter of the Resol ution is contained in the amendment to the amendment moved by ·our Leader, I would req uest the Resol ution stand in my name, to be wit hdrawn . l-'1R. ROBL IN : To have le ave to wit hdraw it now , I would sug gest that we would give consent . (P AUSE ) Yes , Mr . Speaker. MR . SPE AKER: Does th e honour able member have le ave? MK.. CAMPBELL : Mr .

Speaker, I thi nk that 's the correct pr o cedure because I must say that I had thought of ra ising the same po int , because, it seems to me that the one por tion of the sub amendment and thi s motion ar e ver y para llel and so cer tainly we would agre e to it s wit hdraw al . MR . SPEAK ER : Does the House agree to the wit hdraw al of this re sol ution • •••••• Ad journed debate on the propo sed Resolu ti on of Mr . Gray , the Honourable Member for Ink ster • The Honour able Member for Winnipeg Centre has the floor. MR . J. CO WAN (Wi nn ipeg Centre ): Mr .

Speak er, I am plea sed that the Gove rnment is suppor ting this re sol ution introd uced by the Honour able Member for Inkst er , 9-nd I am pleased that the Leader of the Oppo sition �nd his party are ev idently going to suppor t this re sol ution . It is too bad that he di dn't, that this Resol ution wasn 't suppor ted by that party more than a year and a half ago when the Old Age Pe nsion was only ;�40. 00 a month. If it had been support ed at that time , then the people , the old people of thi s Pr ov ince would cert ainly be in a better pos iti on than they ar e today . This , Mr .

Speak er, is a proposal to help the Old Age Pens ion ers beyond the $5 5. 00 pens ion. Help of thi s nature is being given in many of the other prov inc es: Bri ti sh Colu mb ia , Alber ta, Saskatchewan , Ontar io and the Yukon Terr itor y . I am

part icula rly ple ased that thi s Resolut ion propo ses add itional help co ncer n ing housing for our old people , for a few dollars more does not al ways help the basic proble m - the problem of , for many old people , of havi ng adequate shelt er • . If I will be per mi tted , I would li ke to make some re ferenc es to some of my own pers onal knowl edge with reg ar ds to the need of this housing for old people . I worked in respect of a Canad ian Legion lo w ren tal housing pro ject for for ty, el der ly , low inc ome ve ter ans , and I manage it now.

I inter vi ewed many of the appl ican ts, and I found these people whom we have ass isted ; a Vet er an who had been li vi ng for four years in two roo ms in the upstairs of a house in the nor th-w est , nor t h end of our city and who had never been out of those roo ms for four years unt il he moved into our pr oject. He had been cr ippled wit h ar thr it is , and he was just as much a pr isoner as any pr isoner at Headingley , and if , you can well imagine what would have hap�ened if a fi re 23

had taken pla ce in that house. And then , ther e was another , a bl ind vet er an , who was li vi ng in roo ms downtown , upstairs wit h his wife , who hadn 't been out of his roo m , or down the stairs since he had had a strok e some months before . And then , ther e1 s another bl ind vet er an , who se wife was par t ially bl ind , li vi ng in ro oms on the thi rd fl oor of a roo ming house in the west-end , · wit h all the bathroom fac il iti es and all the water down on the second floo r, and you can well imagine theirpl ight,

part icularly on a hot surmner day under a hot roof . Then there was another couple who li ved in two roo ms at the back of a stor e , li ved on their :$80 .00 a month in these two roo ms and paid $40.00 for rent , for water , el ectri city and fuel and then they couldn 't keep their prem ises warm in spite of the fact that they had two stoves ther e . And then ther e was another couple who had li ve d in one roo m for 16 years and paid $35.00 a month ren t for one roo m on the second floo r.

And , another couple , who when the man of the house ret ired , mov ed east of Winn ipeg about ten mile s to li ve in a small shack on a pi ece of la nd where li vi ng was cheaper , and last wint er had to have an ambulance called out to his home on three di fferen t occasions to bri ng him into hospi tal , who needed to be nearer a hospital than he was when he was aw ay out in the country .

And then ther e were , was another couple , who li ved in a suite and were paying $52 .50 a month ren t out of their $80.00 old age pens ion , but who fortu nately, had had enough to carry them on fro m the sale of their for mer house out in Char les wood , but now , when we found them, their bank account was down to $170 .00. What they were going to do when the bank account ran out, they di dn 't know. And then ther e was the other chap who was lame , and who has since l ; st his le g, and is one of our tenants.

And another couple , where the husband was in hospital wit hout any legs at all and who would li kely have rema ined ther e the re st of hi s li fe , if we hadn 't found him a decent pl ace to li ve . We have in our pro ject some six.vet er ans fro m the Boer War, ages 79 to 83 ; the oldest is 90; th e olde st of our tenants is 92 . About 40% of them ar e cri pple d . Our suites ar e all on the gro �nd flo or; each wit h a li vi ng roo m, bedroom, a bathroom, stor age space and adequate fac il ities.

The ren t is �43.00 a month and it inclu des the heat, the water, elect ri c stov e and fr idge and hot water, as well as dr apes and bl ind s. Themaximum inc ome was set by us at $1 50.00 a m6nt h, but the ave rag e of the fi rst 40 tenants was :$112 .0 0 . Seven were under $100 .00 . This was fi nanced by the members of the Canad ian Legion and the Auxili ar ies, putt ing up about $21 , 000 .00 ; by the City of \v'inn ipeg pro vi di ng the la nd and by the Fe der al Gove rnment pr ov id ing a lo an of $177 , 000 .00 , over forty years at 3i% inter est. Our rent of $43.00 includ es ful l tax.

We are paying ful l taxes to the Ci ty of Wi rinipeg and you will real iz e, that tenant s that hav e an in come under $1 00. 00 a month cannot pay a full ren t of $43.00 , and we were able to help those that couldn 't wit h money , a thousand dollars put ll.P by Lad ies Aux il iary fr om a re nt assistan ce fund . But we do find a simi lar pr oject in West Ki ldon an , where the ren t is $45 .00 and whe re we fi nd today some tenants abl e to carry on wit h great di ff iculty hav ing only an inc ome of $1 10. 00 a· month. One of these, one of the feature s, I think, about the proj ect 24

was that these el derly people all had something to do. It was not li ke being in. !i nurs ing home or a. hostel : they all ••• each of them had a flow er gar den , each of them had their own pl ace for things, each of them had their ·o�m meals to prepare . And , many of them had vegetable gard ens and they look ed after the whole lan dscapi ng of the whole pro ject themselv es.

Whil e there is a great need for elder ly coupl es for this type of pr oject , ther e is st ill a grea ter need for single persorts ; for a single perso n , those on old age pens ions par t icularly , only have an inc ome of )5 5.00 a month, and they cannot possibly ren t one of these suites . And so, I hope that this Go ve rnment will take steps to make prov isions for adequate housing for elde rly single perso ns who are able to do their own cooki ng and look after their own housekeeping.

In Sas katchewan , in rura l Saskatchewan , they hav e bu.ilt a number of pro jects for coup::),es in the rural part s, but they have found that the need is not so great for coupl es as it is for single people .

Genera lly speaking , they say, in the ru ra l part s of Saskatchewan, coupl es wil l have their own li ttle homes, they � will be abl·e to get alo ng so lo ng as ther e are two of them there , but the time comes when one passes away and the other one isn 't abl e to cope wit h the fi r es, and doesn 't li ke to be perh aps lef t on the edge of town where they are , where they hav e not ver y much company , or ve ry many vi sitors .

And so there is a great need for acc ommodat ion for single people , and I hope that this Gove rnment will pr ovi de grea ter help for that group than has been pr ovi ded in the past . As a matter of fact , I don't tP,ink any accommodation has been built wi th th e help of Cent ra l Mortg age Funds or wit h the help of the fund s fr om this Prov incial Go ver nment for single people .

Cen tr al Mort gage req uire s that , what accommodat ion be self-co nta ined ; the result is that the ren t must be ar ound $38 .00 or $4 0.00 a month to carr y ev eryt hing so that we perh aps should even ·cons ider, per haps as an exper iment , build ing ·some accommodat ion whereb y the bathroom fac il iti es would be shar ed , and so, per haps we co.uld reduce the cost by $1 0.00 or ;�15. 00 a month. We mi ght do that as an experi ment to see the reac t ion of the old people and to see the react ion of th e public to such an experi ment .

We have , perh aps , we could make use, to help these older single people , perh aps as people concer ned would be will ing that we ma ke some use of th�t .money in Man itoba Hospital Ser vi ce Fund to help wit h housing our old people , for sure ly that would be a worth y pro ject and surely that money would prov ide a wonde rful hel p for thousands of the older people in thi s Pr ov inc e. It is the older , single pe ople that we should be

part icularly concer ned wit h in thi s regar d . Now, we ha ve this need for housing that we have ment ioned , it is the type of housing which is most natural for old people , where they can be by themselve s, where they can have their own li ttle home. It is the type of housing most of them li ke if they are able to take care of themsel ves , and it is the cheapest for the taxpayers as well . But ther e comes a time, when these older people cannot look after th emselves , and so we have the need for the hostel type of accommodation , where their meal s 25

ar e prov ided for them, and whe re they have the waitresses and the cooks and so on, and so, we need some of that accommodat ion , par ti cularly in some of the rural part s of Manitoba. I unders tand there is no such home between, excepting for one, north of Dauphin , only one of them, so ve have the need for that typ3 of home, whe re the people wi ll be prov ided wit h their lo dging and wit h their boar d .

Then we need a hostel , perha ps too , for some of thosepat ient s who come to the city, come to the ci ty perh aps fro m Churchi ll , and they re quire pe rha ps tr eatment only once a week, and if we had some accommodat ion for those people , the hostel accommodation for those people , we wo uld cer tainly be re li ev ing our hospital beds , $1 $.00 hospital beds , of a gr eat ex pense and also prov id ing the ser vi ce that was re quir ed .

Then we have , as we go al ong fur ther, those peopl e who need some nurs ing care and we have the need for these prov inc i-al nurs ing homes , which are ment ioned in this Resol ution wit h phys iotherapy , and wit h reh abil itation schemes so that we can tr y and put these people back on the ir feet so they can look after themselve s. The , in some di str icts in Manit oba, we have for our old people only or d inary ho spi tals , and in many cases, these people could be taken out 6� those expensive beds if there was this other accommodation ava ila ble for them..

A home, such as we have bu ilt at the Legion , as a matter of fact , many of those people , are in worse healt h, I am sure than many people who occupy beds in our nurs ing homes and hospitals . But because they are there on gr ound lev el , no stai rs , and all co nven iences, they are abl e to look after themselves ve ry , ve ry well . And , I am

part icular �y pl eased that this res olut ion , that the Mi nister has announced , that a di rector of housing is going to be appo inted , so that there wil l be le adershi p and help given throughout this Prov ince to or ganizat ions who will help to con str uct and operat e these schemes. This is so mething that is lac ing in thi s Prov ince ·and something that has been pro vi ded for in other Prov inces, and that help , I know, will be of great value because quite a lot of work is. involved in build ing one of these pr ojects.

The re sult s of prov id ing for better accommodat ion for our older people in this Prov ince will be worth whi le , and I am hoping that this accommodation will be prov ided in the ve ry near future and cer tainly a great deal of it next year. MR . D. ORLIKOW ( St . Joh ns ): Mr . Speak er, the Honoura ble Leac;l.er of the Oppos ition cla imed yester day , his Gove rnment had not opposed grea ter assistance to old age pens ioners . For mer Gove rnme nt answer ed eve ry pl ea for assistance wh ich was made in prev ious time s • •• MR .

CAMPBELL : •••••• cont rad ict my honourabl e fri end , that 's not what I said. MR,. ORL IKOW : Mr . Speaker , I hav en 't the Hansar d here but in substance I'm satisfi ed that that is what the Honourab le Leader of th e Oppo siti on meant . 26

MR. CAMPBEL L : For tunat ely my honour able fr iend is forced to ta ke my sta t ement on th e ma tt er, if' he doesn 't ta ke that st ate ment , I shall have to tel l th e House what I sai d. I he si tate to do that because I'v e sai d it so many time s befor e . The po int that I'm trying to make , my honourable fr iend , is that we didn 't say "Whe re is th e money co ming fro m? " We sai d th e mo ney was co ming fro m th e ta xpay ers .

We sai d that the reaso n that we we re not will ing to go al ong wit h th e re so lut ion th at was prop o sed was not because of' th e mon ey, not because th ere was n't need , b.ut bec ause we th ought th e same jo b co uld be do ne bet ter by th e Mun ic ipal ••• MR . PAULLEY : May I int err upt the Honourable Membe r, but is he speaki ng to th e resol ut�on? MR . SPEAK ER : Order. The Honoura ble Member for St . Joh n' s must accept th e ex planat ion from th e Lea der of th e Opposi ti on . MR . ORLIKOW: I accep t , Mr . Speaker •.

Had th e Honourable Leader of the Oppo si t ion let me go on for one more sen te nce , I would have sa id, I would have po int ed out that what he sa id ye s ter day and what he ha s sa id in the pa st that it would ha.ve been be tter to have let th e lo cal muni c ipal it ie s do the jo b. Well , Mr . Speak er, the proof' of the pudd ing is in the eat ing . Not one munic ipal ity to my knowledge , eve r ava iled itself of th is offer which was repeat edly made by the for me r Gove rnment .

As a for mer , as a pre sen t and for mer member of a munic ipal co unc il , as the Honou rable Member for Winnipeg Cen tr e is al so , I know, and the Honour able Lea der of th e Oppo si ti on ought to have known , that the jo b which the muni c ipal it ies have had to do wit h th e last years and pa rt icul arly si nce th e end of' World War II , of prov iding th e ser vi ces whic h th ey alr eady have th e re spons ib il ity for doi ng have been so great that th ey have not been able to accep t the re sp ons ibil it y whic h was so eas ily pa sse d to th em by th e former Gove rnment and th ey would not at th e pre sent time do it ei th er .

So , that in eff ec t , Mr . Sp eak er, when the for me r Gove rnment was sayi ng that th e munic ipal it ie s ought to init iate it , th ey were sayi ng that they we re not prep ar ed to give ass istance to th e old age pens ioners . Mr . Speake r, we welc ome the sta t ement made yes ter day by th e Min ist er. We welcome th e fact that th e pres ent Govern ment now suppo rt s inc rea se d ass istance for old age pens ione rs . I would po int out , Mr . Speake r, that th is Gove rnment is not pi on eeri ng in th e fi eld of old age ass istan c e in th e Domin ion of Cana da .

In fact th is Provi nce is te n to fi ft een years behi nd . ne ar ly ever y other prov ince in Can ada . Sever al provi nc es alr ead y pro vide su ppl ement ary ass istanc e to those re c ip ien t s of' old age se curi ty or old age assi stan ce. To ment ion just a few, we have Br it ish Co lumb ia , Al ber ta , Ontari o and Yukon . Only in Ontari o, does th e prov ince oper ate a syste m in which th e muni c ipal it ie s are ask ed to co nt ribut e financ iall y .

In Br it ish Co lumb ia , Alb er ta, and Sa skat c hewan hospi tal care and a co mpreh ens ive range of' me di cal ser vices are provi ded to th e old age pens ione rs . Med ical ser vi ces in th ese three provi nces include med ical and surg ical ser vi ces , if' 27

necessar y fro m speci al ists, in the home, doctor 's offi ce, or in hospi tal s, and also dental , opt ical and cer tain other serv ices are prov ided . In 1955 and 19 56, over 29 , 000 people on old age assistance, mother 's all owance and bl ind all owance were eli gi ble for hospi tal ser v ices, medi cal ser vice s, dr ugs, dental and optical ser vi ces in the 'P rov ince of Saskatchewan. It is estimated that between 60 and 65% of the people ava il ed themselves of thi s ser vi ce . Now .. the Honour able Member for Winn ipeg Centre talk ed about the need for housing for the old people .

The Provi nce of Saskat chewan , passed a Housing Act in 1953 , which made pro v is ion for the constr uction of low rental housing and other acc ommodation for aged, needy , and infi rm and bl ind perso ns . Const ruct ion under these provis ions by church es, chari tabl e and fr aternal or ganizat ions and muni cipal ities was encourage d. The act made it possible for munic ipal and other gro ups to sponsor and inc orpo rat e ·li mited di vi dend s or non pr ofit housing compan ies to qual ify for low interes t lo ans fro m Central Mortgage and Housing Co rpor ation.

Constr uction of low rental housing pr ojects for eJ derly cit izen s was pro moted and encouraged by prov inc ial government support , al though the pro jects are a local resp onsibil ity . The Prov inc ial Gove rnme nt in Saskatchewan extends techni cal assistanc e and lea der ship in municipal gr oups and rel igious and frat er nal or ganizat ions inter ested in the or ganizat ion and inc or por at ion of li mit ed di vi dend or non-pr ofit housing compan ies, with the ob ject ive of prov idi ng approp ri ate li vi ng quart er s and accommoda ti on for elde rly persons .

Prov inc ial Gove rnment also pay a maintenance grant of for ty dollars per annum for each self conta ined un it , and $40. 00 per annum for bed in a hosp ital. The pro jects are init ially motivat ed by the people in the local di s tri cts, but, by young and middle aged ci tizens who reco gnize the need and the ri ght of their elder ly ci ti zens to the secur ity of a home of th eir own at rental they can afford to pay wit hin the li mi ts of a re stri cted inc ome. Th e ent ire or ganizat ion, con str uct ion , oper ation of each pr oject is a local respo ns ibi li ty. At the end of 19 57, Mr .

Speaker, ther e were in the Pr ovince of Saskatchewan, 52 lo w-ren tal housing proj ects. The total value of these pro jects wa.s approx linatel y ten mill ion doll ars , of which the Provi nc ial Gove rnme nt had put forwa rd close to two mi ll ion doll ars . And Mr . Sp eaker, we we lc ome the announcement of the Go ver n ment that they wil l mo ve in this di rect ion. We welc ome it be caus.e our group pi oneer ed in thi s fi eld . Old age pens ions were fi rst prop osed nat ionally and fi rst establ is hed on the suggestion of the founder of the C.C.F., that great Canadi an ,· J.S . VvTordsw or th.

We have ah vays pre ssed for a decent standard of li vi ng for our old people and we will support any and ever y prop osal made by any gr oup to improve the cond it ions of the old people in this pro vi nce. MR . SPE AKER : Are you rea dy for the question? :tv1R. MART IN : I beg to move , seconded by the :tvlember fro m Robl in that the debate be adjour ned . 28

Mr . Sp eak er read th e mot ion a,.nd after a voi ce vot e decl ared th e moti on carr ied . MR. ROBLIN : Mr . Sp eak er , I beg to move that the Hous e do •••• MR. GRAY : Mr . Speak er, but th e moti on is ad j ourned . It is move d. Can the gen tle man info rm th e House whether ther e is go ing to be a Se ssi on to mo rrow night? MR . ROBLIN : The answ er to th at is ye s, Mr . Speak er , if it me ets th e wi she s of th e House. I thi nk that was th e unders tand ing at which we beg an our bus ine ss last week. I would li ke to now move , Mr .

Speak er, seco nded by th e Honour able th e Min! st er of Mine s and Natural Re sources , th at the House do now ad jo urn , and st and adj ourned unt il ei ght P.M . this ev eni ng . MR . SPEA KER read th e mot ion and af ter a voi ce vot e de clared th e moti on carrie d , and th e House ad j ourned unt il 8:0 0 o' clock in th e eveni ng . 29

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	25-1-4a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	25th 1st hansardpdf 4a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	dddec4747806bc9c025d837250b01227035f5027

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).