VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 a.m. FRIDAY, MAY 27, 1983 NO. 49

May 27, 1983 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. SIMMS: MR. SPEAKER: Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Tape No. 2619 NM - 1 Order, please! 000 Mr. Speaker. The hon. Minister of Culture, I am anticipating the possibility of having to make a statement a little later on in the morning. I am not actually certain yet, but I wonder if I might get an agreement now from the Leader of the Opposition to rever·t to Ministerial Statements later on in the morning if it becomes necessary? MR •. NEARY: MR. SIMMS: MR. SPEAKER: As long as it is not political. It is very non-political.

It is agreed that the hon. minister shall have leave to make a statement later? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Agreed. It is agreed. ORAL QUESTIONS: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, we thought that yesterday was the launching of the Return of the Jedi but we notice today we have the return of the Premier in the House, the return of the Jedi of the House. We would like to welcome the han. gentleman back and we would like to tell him that during his absence his House Leader (.Mr.

Marshall) made a statement outside the House that he expects to close the House sometime today. we think this is outrageous, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. President of the Council on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: I made no such statement at all. I made the statement, which I consistently make, that the House 5565

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2619 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: will remain open as long as is necessary to conduct the necessary public business, and it will do so. MR. ROBERTS: That is not what CBC carried. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. Leader of the Opposition to that point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I cannot accuse the hon. gentleman of deliberately attempting to mislead the House, but I heard the han. gentleman's voice with my own ears this morning - MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: I am on a point of order.

The hon . gent~eman raised a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: the Council. . MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: Order, please! Order, please! On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. Oh, a point of privilege. Order, please! The hon. President of He must have had his nasty pills today, Mr. Speaker, you are not allowed to say indirectly what you cannot say directly, and you are not all~ to say directly that somebody is misleading the House. The hon. gentleman gets up and says, "I will not ac~use the hon. gentleman of misleading the House," and then he goes on, "but".

He is saying indirectly what he is not allowed to say directly and he should be asked to withdraw it. MR. SIMMS: MR.NEARY: A terrible breach of privilege. Your Honour is smiling, Your Honour knows that is not a point of privilege. The hon. gentleman obviously had his nasty pills this morning. He cannot get his own way, he is not going to be able to close the House. They have forty-four, there are only eight of us over here, and they cannot even control the House, Mr. Speaker. There is no point of privilege. 5566

May 27, 1983 Tape 2620 PK - 1 MR . SPEA KER (Russell) : Order, please! The han. President of the Council (~~- Marshall) does not have a valid point of privilege. I was listening to the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) responding to a prior point of order. MR. NEARY: order. MR. SPEAKER: Well 1 there is no point of Well 1 it is a difference of opinion between two han. members. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to start out by asking the Premier to explain why he was bragging a week or so ago that the House would be kept open even longer than necessary in order to pass some legislation.

How can he reconcile that with the statement made this morning on radio by his House Leader, that with the co-operation of the Opposition he would like to close the House today. Could the han. gentleman care to comment on that? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: No, it is too foolish, Mr . Speaker, it is too foolish to respond to,really. I mean, let us get on to something more substantial. No, I do not think so. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The han. Leader of the Opposition. Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Perhaps we can get on to something a little more substantial. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the han. gentleman,now that he is back in his seat, if he can offer any words of hope for the unemployed, for young Newfoundland and Labrador students who are unemployed , for the students who are graduating from the vocational schools and from the College of Trades and Technology and from the Fisheries College and from the high schools, all these students who are graduating, if the han. gentleman can offer any hope for these students to find employment, even Summer employment,to keep ~hemselves occupied during the next few months? 5567

May 27, 1983 Tape no. 2620 PK - 2 ~m. SPEAKER (Russell) : Before I recognize the hon. Premier, I would like to take this opportunity to extend a special welcome to the people who are in the Speaker's gallery, representatives from the Atlantic Provinces and Ottawa, who are here to attend the Fifth Parliamentary Con .ference. On behalf of all the hon. members, I certainly extend to you a very warm welcome to our Province and certainly to our Legislature. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Bear , hear . MR . SPEAKER: The pon. Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr . Speaker, as I indicated to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) some time ago, this government have taken a number of very significant initiatives over the last year or so to try to stimulate the economy of this Province, and to a large degree we have bee .n very successful. I also indicated to the Leader 5568

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2621 MJ- 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: of the Opposition at that time that on a number of fronts we can see an economic upturn , for exarrple, in the mining industry,and I gave examples to the Leader of the Opposition at that time of what was happening in Baie Verte in the asbestos operation and what was happening in the gypsum operation in Flat Bay 1what looks like a hopeful sign in the negotiations that the Minister responsible for Mines (Mr.

Dawe) has had with ASARCO for the Buchan's operation and so on, and even in the iron ore industry,where we see a reduction in the amount of dot~time in the Wabush operation in Labrador West 1 and so on through the whole bit and piece. Mr. Speaker, we are putting in place silviculture and reforestation programmes,which have seen young people and others go to work who are working at the present time in the forest industry. So we are working there to try to help.

We are doing all we can in the way of temporary employment for the Summer to employ students. l·!e are in the midst of very extensive, intensive negotiations with the federal government for a major restructuring of the fishing industry which will involve 1when it is completed, I am sure, the employment of a lot of students and young people as well. So, Mr. Speaker, we are taking initiatives and doing what we can to provide as many jobs to young people and · to others in the Province as is humanly . possible given the circumstances underwhich we operate. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER (Russel 'l): The han. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary. MR. NEARY: . Mr. Speake:~::, the han. gentleman is beginning to sound more like Brian Mulroney every day. He is programmed. You ask him a question 1 he just turns on the tape and gives you the same answer. Every time we put the 5569

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2621 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: que .stion to the han. gentleman we get the same answer from the han. gentleman. MR. HICKEY: MR. SPEKAER (Russell) : He is entering into debate. Order, please! The han. the Leader of i;:he Opposition is entering into debate and making a speech. maybe he could be more precise with his questions. MR. NEARY: I am making some excellent points though, Your Honour vou will have to agree. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the fact of the matter is that we have 60,000 Newfoundlanders unemployed, we have these students pouring out of the College of Trades and Technology, College of Fisheries, the University, the high schools and the vocational schools. Now, Mr. Speaker, what I am asking the han. gentleman is to tell this House what plans his administration has to create some activity for these students during the Summer months so that they can find employment. Now the han. gentleman told us about a week or so ago, the last time he was here, that deputy ministers would be 5570

May. 27, 1983 Tape No. 2622 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: responsible for hiring for each. department for swmner employment. Now would the Premier tell t.he House when these Summer jobs are going to be advertised, when the students will get a crack at making an applicatron for these Summer jobs that the hon. gentleman told us- would be handled by the Deputy Ministers· of each. department? MR. SPEAKER (Russell} The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I have i:n_dicated to the Leader of the Oppos ·ition LMr.

Neary)_ already -, and other ministers have over the last two or three weeks- 1 what we are trying to do to s:timulate employment in the_ Province - h.undreds and hundreds of millions· of dollars· being spent in various- sectors: of th.e economy. It is funny about the Leader of the Opposition; when I talk about silviculture and reforestation, do you noti.ce that the Leader of the Opposition never comes· back wi·th a follow-up question on that? Because I do not even kno~~ Mr. Speaker 1 if the Leader of the Opposition knows what. silviculture and reforestation are all about.

And it is going on right now all across· the P.rovince, we have hupdreds of people employed, involved in reforestation_, I wish some members of the Opposition from time to time . would say, 'Well, why is the government not involved in ensuring that we are going to have trees for the future '? Are we only looking far today?

Are we looking for tomorrow?' And here we are involved with the federal government through the agreement that we signed with. th.em 1 with. a very 1 very enlightened 1 forward-looking forest deve.lapment programme to ensure that we have a very viable. forest industry thirty and forty years down the road. And right now there are a lot of young men and women working across Newfoundland in this reforestation programme a:n_d it 5571

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2622 SD - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: is a fantastic programme. I can never get the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) to follow up on a question to get into that kind of thing. He ignores that a~together. We are, as we ·said before, involved in hiring students during the Summer thro~gh the various government departments -up to 500 students, I think it is, we will be hiring this Summer. That is something we would like to do teh times more of, a hundred times more of, if we could, Mr. Speaker.

But the point, which the Leader of the Opposition cannot argue with, is that we are doing everything that is within our power to alleviate student unemployment in this Province, Within our power, Mr. Speaker, we are doing everything that is humanly possible. To that statement the Leader of the Opposition has no answer. MR. NEARY: ~· SP~R (;Russell} Opposition. MR. NEARY·: Mr. Speaker. The hon. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman accuses me of ignoring his statements,. well1 r could say the hon. gentleman ignores our protes·ts over the' ·Green Bay Transport No. 1, that s·hip 5572

May 27, 1983 Tape 2623 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: that the hon. gentleman subsidized for one of his buddies, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman should address himself to that question. Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentle­ man says that the administration is doing everything within its power. Now, could the.hon. gentleman give us specific examples of projects - MR. TULK: Special projects. MR. NEARY: - special projects? The other provinces of Canada- as the parliamentarians who are sitting in the Speaker's gallery know, Mr.

Speaker -every other province of Canada,except Newfoundland,has undertaken special projects to provide employment for students during the Summer. Now, would the han. gentleman tell us what his administration is doing in the way of special projects to take care of student employment for the Summer? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, let me first respond very briefly to the first remark by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary).

When the Leader of the Opposition gets in trouble in Question Period,or at any other time in his political career, one thing becomes very evident- obviously, the Leader of the Opposition senses that he is losing ~~s Question Period ·already-he then goes low and starts to try to get into some lower, lower road of political vindictiveness which somehow is to compensate for his lack of being able to continue to ask good questions and win the Question Period for a change. MR. SIMMS: Right on! PREMIER PECKFORD: But, Mr. Speaker, I have news for the Leader of the Opposition.

I do not intend to go down to the depths to which the Leader of the Opposition goes. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 5573

May 27, 1983 PREMIER PE CKFORD : he is over there. SOME RON. MEMBERS : PREMIER PECKFORD: Tape 2623 EC - 2 That is why we are over here and Hear, hear! Now, Mr. Speaker, number two, let me say that the Minister of Social Services (~r. Hickey) just reminded me that last .year in his department alone, in employment opportunities - a nice phrase, Mr. Speaker 1 1in employment opportunities'-the Department of Social Services created 2,600 jobs and this year will create 2,800 jobs. That is performance! SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: Twenty-eight hundred jobs, 2,800 jobs, for the Leader of the Opposition's (Mr. Neary) edification, Mr. Speaker. In the reforestation programme and in silviculture, the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) just informed me that there will be 700 jobs. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PE CKFORD : And behind me, the minister responsible for Wildlife and the other ministers who were involved in the temporary employment programme for students indicate 500 jobs, that is 2,800 plus 700 which equals 3,500 plus 500 which makes 4,000 - not 1,000, not 2,000, not 3,000 but 4,000 jobs that I can give right off the top of my head that we have created this Summer. SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. 5574

May 2 7, 19-83 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. NEARY: Tape No. 2624 NM- 1 The han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, when it comes to getting down and roling in the gutter, I am afraid the hon. gentleman is the expert at that. The reason I flicked Transport No. 1 at himwas so the parliamentarians could see the hon. gentleman in full flight, Mr. Speaker, so that they could see what we have to deal with, what we have to contend with in·this Province. MR. TULK: end. The way he goes off the deep MR. NEARY: I wanted them to see him go off the deep end, Mr. Speaker.

So he did, he took the bait, hook, line and sinker, and away he went. Mr. Speaker, now about these jobs the hon. gentleman was supposed to have created; the jobs that were created in Social Services was merely tranferring people from Social Services to the federal payroll, unemployment insurance. That was the strategy behind that. MR. HICKEY: MR. NEARY: of the hon. gentleman. A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Now I got another rise out MR. SPEAKER: ~rder, please! Order, please! The hon. Minister of Social Services on a point of order. MR. RICKEY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

I am not going to §it and let the hon. gentleman deceive the House and the people of the Province. For his information, and to enlighten him and remind him, which he was informed of already during 'estimate time, a survey l~st year done on 6,500 of a sample all over the Province, based on 20,000 people removed from social assistance over tthe last ten years through this 5575

May 27, 19 .83 Tape No . 2624 NM - 2 MR. HTCKEY: programme 1 a survey of 6,500 such cases indicated 78 per cent not on social assistance, in employment, having not come back to social assistance . That is not transferring it to the UIC. SOME BON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : t<?hat was the point of order? The bon . Minister of Social Services rose on a point of order \oJhich indeed was a point of clarification. MR. NEARY: The bon . Leader of the Opposition . That was not even worth commenting on.

The bon. gentleman seems to be losing his memory, there is something happening to the boo . gentl eman. Mr . Speaker, let me come to another matter i.n connection with employment in this Province. The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) made a statement 1r think it 55 76

May 27, 1983 Tape 2625 ' PK - 1 MR. NEARY: was around May 4 1 that could have thrown another 2,500 Newfoundlanders on the unemployment rolls. I would like to ask the Premier if he condones this kind of a statement that was made by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), which had to do with Fishery Products going into bankruptcy. The hon. gentleman said that ten days from the time he made his statement, which was May 4 or May 5 , Fishery Products would be bankrupt. Fishery Products the next day had a run of creditors - MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) is indeed making a speech. He has asked this question and then went on to partially answer it. MR. NEARY: Just a short

preamble, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, Fishery Products countered by threatening to take·the hon. gentleman to court for libel. Now would the hon. Premier tell the House if he intends to defend the Minister of Fisheries on that statement the:,:same as he did on the jokes that were told at the Fishery Council of Canada meeting recently over at Hotel Newfoundland? Does the hon. gentleman condone that kind of statement? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: No, Mr. Speaker. In answer to that question let~e show what the Leader of the Opposition is up·to right now.

In earlier questions,when he was not successful, he started to personally attack me. Now when that did not work,he wants to pick on another minister,another ministry. ·He wants to ignore employment now, he wants to ignore jobs. for young people for the Summer,and he wants to get personal and attack again. When the Leader of the 5577

May 27, 1983 Tape 2625 PK - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: that is when he gets personal. MR. BUTT: HR. SIMHS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Opposition starts to los~ Right on! A good answer! A good answer! Hear, hear! The hon. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman somehow or other interprets $3 million of taxpayer money for this Transport No. 1 which is what it will cost the taxpayers of this Province, he interprets that as being personal. I believe that has something to do with the taxpayers and with this House and with public funds, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. gentleman about his apartment- MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition is persisting in making a speech. If he continues to persist,the Chair will have to recognize somebody else. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, '. if you ask the hon. gentleman about his apartment,the only Premier in Canada who has an apartment paid for by the taxpayers, he says that is personal. PREMIER PECKFOP.D: 1 Steve 1 , sit down. You are rraking a fcol of yourself. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we have a right to ask questions about taxpayer money.

Now let me ask the hon. gentleman again - SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - does the hon. gentleman condone statements of the type made by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) about Fishery Products going into 5578

__ ......fit __ _ May 27 , 1983 Tape 2625 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: bankruptcy ten days from the time the hen. gentleman made the stateme .nt?. Or does the Premier feel that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr . Morgan) should be trying to protect these jobs; that the Minister of Fisheries should be going out of his way to keep the bigg.est fishing company ~ Newf·oundland afloat , tp t:~:y to keep them going, to keep 5579

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2626 MJ - l MR. NEARY: Newfoundlanders employed? Should that be the job of the minister or should he be making irresponsible, wild statements about Fishery Products going bankrupt? PRF.MIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, first of all,it was not the question of the public funds that went into the ferry that I was objecting to~ it was the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) saying I was giving money to my buddy,and that is a different matter, Mr. Speaker.

This government is open if anybody wants to question the expenditure of public funds. Butthis administration is not going to stand idly by and allow somebody like the Leader 'of the Opposition to drag somebody else's character down into the mire like he has tried to with other people over the years, Mr. Speaker. That we will not stand for. Number two, as far as trying to throw in the apartment and so on is concerned, I find it rather ironic that the highest paid Leader of the Opposition in Canada would make such accusations, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. :t-lEMBERS : Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: Thirdly;for the point that the Leader of the Opposition was getting at, it does not wa~rant an answer, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEAR;Y: MR. SPEAKER,: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, The han. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, this ,is the fifth time now, I believe, the hon. gentleman has defended the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and we are beginning to wonder what the Minister of Fisheries has on the hon. gentleman. SOME HON. MEMBERS : . Oh, oh! 5580

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2626 MJ.,.. 2 MR. NEARY: Mr, Speaker, you talk about arrogance, It is too bad the hon. gentleman was not in his seat the other day when th~ Russian sailo:t:s were here so they could see a dictator in action, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. ~peaker, can the hon, gentleman tell the House if the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) was served a '"ri t by Fishery Products as they threatened to do publicly? They said they were going to take the hon. gentleman to court. Did they serve a writ on the hon, gentleman?

Has the ~on, gentleman apologized for the statement :that he made because Fishery Products came out a few days later and announced a profit of $100 1 000 in the first quarter? Could the hon, gentleman enlighten the House on these matters? PREMIER; PECKFORD: ~.r. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon, the Prem~er, PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr, $peaker, I do not intend to answer the Leader of ~~e Opposition (Mr. Neary) when he tries to wiggle into his questions various character assassinations and so on. I do not intend to answer.

I will answer the Leader of the Opposition when he asks a clean sensible question, not when he is going to try to drag · everybody else down where he is, I do not intend to , SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAl{ER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I have a final question then for the hon. gentleman. The hon, gentleman is being given a last chance by the President of the Fishery 5581

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2626 MJ - 3 MR. NEARY : Council of Canada to write a letter of apology to accompanv~ letter that I wrote to be sent to the 600 international representatives \vho attended a meeting here in St . John's and were insulted by the behaviour of the Minister of Fisheries [Mr. Morgan) in telling his ethnic jokes and his sexist joke s. Now they are going to give the hon. gentleman one last opportunity to write an apology. Nill the hon. 5582

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2627 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: gentleman accept that invitation on behalf of the President of the Fishery Council of Canada and have a letter sent to the 600 international representatives from all over the world who attened this conference and make a public apology on behalf of the Minister· of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan)? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I have dealt with that matter and I have answered questions on it over the last two or three weeks .. I indicated that I intended not to comment on it any further. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier. In view of the fact that the Premier and the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr.

Goudie) have received numerous letters and telegrams from Native Peoples in this Province,and in view of the fact that those telegrams and letters show concern that the Department of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development has not been adminis ·tering federal/provincial Nati_ve funds in the proper manner, is the Premier satisfied that the funds administered by the department is to the satisfaction of the Native Peoples in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if it is to the satisfaction of the Native Peoples in thls Province.

They are being administered ac~or~~?~ to the agreement, whatever has · been agreed to on how these funds were to be administered. That is what we are doing. I mean, we 'are not doing something against the agreement. Now there are different groups of Native peoples in the 5563

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2627 SD - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Province. xou have the Micmac Conne River group , who are not aboriginal to this Province but who are covered by a Native agreement - MR. HODDER: Says you. PREMIER PECKFORD: Says our research and nobody has refuted it and nobody has challenged it. I ask the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) to lay on the table of this House the evidence that he has to show that the Micmac group in Conne River are aboriginal to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. PREMIER PECKFORD: Lay it on the table.

I mean, for the member for Port au Port to make ch.eap shots, you know, s-aying that the Micmacs in Conne River are aboriginal to the Province without producing one slight shred of evidence seems to me to be a very superficial way for a former educator to act in this Kous·e, Mr. Speaker, as far as I am concerned. To answer the han. member '· s question, as I said, we have a Native Peoples' agreement; we are living up to our side of the bargain and I hope the federal government are living up to theirs and the Native People are living up to theirs.

For a whi.le the Native People of Conne River were not living up to theirs. The Inuit and the Naskaupi Montagne, I think, have been1but the people of Conne River wanted to spend the money however they. w_a~t.ed to spend the money 1 with no strings attached, which was coming from the taxpayers. Of course, we had to stand up and be firm and get conditions on that money· so that it was going to be spent for the things it was· intended for • !f it was a housing allocation 1 then i_t 5584

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2628 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: would have to be spent on housing and could not be spent on travelling all over Canada, as some of the members of the group had been doing. So we had to ensure that the people of Conne River, not the leadership but the people of Conne River, were actually going to get their monies' worth, that if Mr. Joe was number one on the list to get a house; that Mr. Joe got his house out of that money allocation, that that housing money was not spent for the sawmill or the sawmill money was not spent for housing or whatever.

But as far as I am aware, we have lived up to the terms of the federal/provincial agreement covering Native Peoples. MR. WARREN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (_Russell) : The hon. member for Torngat Mountains, a supplementary. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I knew that the Premier was going to come back with an apparently rosy answer, an answer that my next question will contradict. MR. BAIRD: Do not contrad~ct yourself. MR.

WARREN: In the 1982/83 fiscal year, why were monies, budgeted and approved by the Department of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development and by the Native People's Committee - $478,000 of Native People's money - not spent? Could the Premier give the reason why the Department of Rural Development would not issue this money to the Native groups? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Oh, sure.

If the member had asked me that question first I would have answered him and said, yes, I will get him th~ reasons why that happened, to try to deduce that because there was some money left over from one fiscal year to the next, and without knowing the reason, to somehow imply in the original question that we were not living up to the terms of the agreement, are two different things. It is quite possible 5585

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2628 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: for all the money for one year in an agreement not to be spent and come over, dropped balance, into the next year without the Province breaking the terms of the agreement. That is possible. But the member's two questions left the distinct impression that because there was a dropped balance the Province was not living up to its terms and conditions of the agreement. That is not necessarily a logical deduction.

I will get for the hon. member the reason why the $470,000 the hon. member mentioned was not spent within the terms of the fiscal year of twelve months and why it was carried over. Obviously there is a good reason for it and I would be only too happy to provide it to the hon. member. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe) with respect to not a new road, although .it will be a new road, but an upgrading and construction project, in fact, on the road between the Northern Peninsula Highway and L'Anse-au-Meadows. Can he tell us, if he would, please, when tenders will be called for the initial work on this project, and, perhaps as rart of that, could he tell us what work he envisages will be included within the initial phase of the project? Because obviously it is a two or three year piece of work. 5586

May 27, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Transportation. MR. DAWE: Tape 2629 EC - 1 The han. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, the technical committee,made up of the Department of Transport officials fixmthefederal government and officials from the provincial Department of Transportation,have been working out .the specific details and the cash flow requirements for the programme and identifying the various-projects. Some of these projects have, in fact, been already submitted for review by the federal Transport people in Halifax. We are waiting to get the specific tender calls back from them to go ahead with them.

O~e of the problems that has been created, and I hope will be overcome very shortly, is that the actual cash amounts, the actual financial arrangements from the federal government have not yet gone through their federal treasury board system. This may delay the actual tender calls for a - MR. ROBERTS: They will go ·through quickly, I can assure you. MR. DAWE: Well, I am sure that · they probably will but, as of today, they have not gone through and it may be a couple of weeks. The initial stages, the first part of that project, should see, at a minimum, one-third of the project.

It will depend on how they work out the cash flow on.that job •. It is a three-year agreement and theoretic­ ally the project will be spread over three years but, of. course; that will depend upon how much can be done initially in this year. That will be worked out in the next couple of weeks and I anticipate the tenders being called within that two-week period. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. 5587

May 27, 1983 Tape 2629 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: I appreciate what the minister has to say and I will not press him on detail because, as he has told us, the detail is being developed. I think he can rest assured that the project will get speedy consider­ ation in Ottawa by the Tre~sury Board of the Government of canada· In fact,the whole thing was put together in- what?- two weeks from start to finish? 1 a model of federal/provincial co-operation for once in our history. But I wonder i,f the minister could confirm that the engineering is done?

I may not have the right word on it, 'engineering•·; he knows what I mean, the work that is necessary by the engineers and the technical people - MR. TULK: Surveying. MR.. ROBERTS : •· surveying, 1 my friend from Fogo sa,ys is done to the point where, let us say, the stretch of road between the main road and St. Lunaire-Griquet, which is the most Southerly portion of that road-as I guess the minister knows; he may even have been over it on occasion­ but it is the first part that has to be done because it is the worst part and the part that everybody uses every day a,nd it is also the nearest part.

So for three reasons it has to be done. Could he confirm that the engineering/survey work fdr that portion of the road has been done so that tenders ca,n be called this year? I ask.because there is · a lot of confusion and a lot of doubt, a lot of.public interest, obviously, in the area. And I will leave it by saying if the mini!;te:r: is not sure, would he undertake to get me the answer eith 'er in the House or outside,as for him? 5588 {~ convenient

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2630 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. DAWE: The hon. Minister of Transportation. Mr. Speaker, the actual engineering detail had not been done to the point where it could be put into a tender document at the time of the signing, but it is being done as quickly as possible. I will certainly undertake to see just at what stage it is, but it is certainly our intention to have that project began this Summer and the tenders called in adequate time to allow for construction to begin and take place on time. MR.

ROBERTS: And begin at the Southern end, at the Northern Peninsula Highway going down to St. Leonard's? MR. DAWE: That is my understanding but again I will check on it and get the information before the House closes. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) if the claim on the Upper Salmon that was made by Viking Construction, the general contractor on that project, if that claim has been settled or what is the status of that claim at the present time?

I understand the claim is in the vicinity of $7 million or $8 million over and above the original contract. Could the hon. gentleman tell the House the status of that claim now? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, that claim is being investigated by independent professional people who are going to give us their opinion with respect to it, They have not finished their deliberations as of yet. Wh.en they do , I will advise the hon. member accordingly. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 5589

May 27, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 2630 SD - 2 Supplementary, the hon. Leader Mr. Speaker, could the hon. gentleman tell the House what is Newfoundland Hydro's position on that claim? Are they against paying out this m?ney? Are they saying that there is no claim under the contract? What is Newfoundland Hydro saying about this claim? MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, it is something being investigated by a quasi judicial board, as it were, to see whether or not there are grounds for paying the claim.

I am not going to give the position of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro with respect to it. The only thing I can tell the hon. gentleman is that no monies will be paid unless there is independent advice to the effect that there is substance to the claim. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Time for Question Period has expired.

Before we continue 1 I understand that we have in the galleries some twenty-one s.tudents· who are winners of competitions spons-ored by the National Book Festival Committee through the co-operation of the Federation of School Boards, the Department of Education and the Newfoundland Teachers 1 Association 1 and they are from Central, Western, Burin Peninsula, Labrador and St. John's. I am sure you would wish me tb welcome them and extend my congratulations to them. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. 5590

May 27, 1983 Tape 2631 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): I am sure you would wish me to welcome them and extend my congratulations to them. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PRESENTING REPORTS .OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Pursuant to Subsection (29) of The Parliamentary Commissioner (Ombudsman) Act , I am pleased to say that I have received the Ombudsman Report, the Eighth Annual Report,andi lay it on the table of the House. There are copies for han. members. MR. NEARY: Nice reading for the weekend. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The han.

President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the han. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) addressed a question to me concerning gasoline shortages in Southern Labrador. At that particular time I indicated that while we.were not aware that the problem was as acute as the han. gentleman was painting it to be, we would have it looked into and advise the gentleman accordingly. I find , Mr. Speaker, having looked into the situation,that in fact the problem is not as acute as the hon. gentleman painted it.

There are no problems in certain communities; in Port Hope Simpson andCharleston, everything is fine. The only places where there are any ,?roblems at all is in Fox Harbour and Cape Charles and Mary's Harbour. PREMIER PECKFORD: Suprised! MR. MARSHALL: M~ry'~ Harbour and Fox Harbour, there are problems there. Fox Harbour's is because of the ~ - . - environmental problem which will be cleared up next year, but in the meantime,there is no real acute problem there, Mr. 5591

May 27, 1983 Tape 26Jl PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Speaker. Longliners have been bringing in fuel for the past two weeks. There is no fishing being undertaken anyway at the present time. And there have been no critical complaints of any nature received at our office in Goose Bay. So I would like to draw to the attention of _the House the fact that the han. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) J?OSed that question yesterday in terms that made it sound like it was urgent and very acute which in fact it is not . The han. gentleman is not here and perhaps his colleagues can advise him.

When . . :he han. gentleman represents .a district in Labrador, a remete rural district and he comes here and he voices his concerns he should not cry wolf once too often,_b _ecause if he is goi?_g _ to raise matters and put them in ~n _imperative tone as he did yesterday, the legitimate concerns of his constituents are not going to be regarded as they ought to be. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. MORGAN: Hear, hear! The han. Minister of Fisheries. Mr.

Speaker, to provide further information to a question asked on Tuesday by the member for Fogo (Mr • Tulk), while I was away from the House, it was answered by my colleague, the House Le~der (Mr. Marshall), - --- to add further information to that answer, with regard to lobster pot damage on the Northeast Coast unfortunately ·the ice conditions are pretty severe and the onshore prevailing winds are causing substantial damage to the ~ishermen's gear along the Northeast Coast and in areas of the Fogo district, in particular ~usgrave Harb?ur and the Fogo Island area, also in the Green Bay area. 5592

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2632 MJ - 1 MR. MORGAN: ~he Fisheries Department has been assessing the damages, mostly to the lobster traps 1 lobster pats, c.nd 19,000 pots are now being made available in various locations around the Province. These pots are ready for the fishermen's use,to be put in water. The price that was established on these pots this year is the same price that we established back in 1979, ·ve have not increased the price to fishe:rren .. --- since 1979, it '•Tas then established at seven dollars a pot.

We are now offering these lobster pots to the fishermen at seven dollars each and so far 1,000 pots have been sold to tte fishermen in these areas where the storm or ice damage is being encountered. A further supply of pots,if necessary, will be taken to individual local areas, they are now in different areas like Argentia, Botwood, Cape Freels, Durrell, Musgrave Harbour, Newtown, Port Saunders, Stephenville, Trout River, different locations around the Province,but if necessary we will arrange to .Locate additional pots in areas where the most damage is occurin~.

At no cost to the fishermen we will transport and locate these pots. And,as I say again,it is difficult at this time to determine the full extent of the damage because the ice is onshore as a result of winds on shore in recent days, but the damage will be further assessed and further pots made available. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR MARSHALL: Motion 2, the Loan Bill. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Cormnittee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair, COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas): Order, please! The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. 5593

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2632 MJ -2 HR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we indica ted that we had pretty well said all we want to say on Utis bill. We were rather annoyed to hear the President of the Council, the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall), take to the air waves this.morning and tell the people of Newfoundland that with the co-operation of the Opposition the House would be closing today,when the hon. gentleman had not had any prior consultation with the Opposition. The hon. gentleman did not have the courtesy to speak to our House Leader (Mr. Hodder), to let our House Leader know of the hon. gentleman's intentions. 5594

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2633 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Chairman, I can tell the House there were no deals, there will be no deals. We intend. to keep this House open as long as we can to see if we can shame the government into bringing in plans to deal with record unemployment in this Province, to ·deal with the crisis in the Newfoundland and Labrador economy, to try to create jobs for students during the Summer, Mr. Chairman. The House now has been open for several weeks, we have asked a lot of questions during the Oral Question Period. We have put a lot of questions on the Order Paper.

Less than half the questions on the Order Paper have been answered; We have put a lot of hard questions, very penetrating questions to the administration. The quality of the questions have been superb, Mr. Chairman, it is the quality of the answers that the people in this Province should b.e concerned about, as we saw this morning when the Premier, who seems to be rather testy these days,by the way, seems to be uptight over something or other, maybl:! ·i<t is because they cannot get their way and close the House whenever they feel like it. But we intend t0 keep the House open as long as we can.

There is a limit to what we can do, Mr. Chairman. Han. members realize there are forty-four on that side of the House and only eight on this side, so there is a limit to what we can do. When we get a bill that we can speak on a number of times, and this is the kind of a bill, the loan bill, we can speak on this as often as we want for ten minutes at a ,time, back and forth across the House. When we get a bill like that, Mr.

Chairman, we intend to take advantage of the debate to try to shame the administration, to try to persuade the administrtation, to beg the administration, to bring something into the House that we can get our teeth into, to bring something into this House - bring in some plans, some recommendations, to 5595

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2633 NM - 2 MR. NEARY : try to provide jobs, Summer jobs for students , to try to provide jobs for students who are graduating at the College of Fisheries and the College of Trades and at the university, and at the sixtee .n vocational schools throughout the Province . One of the big tragedies in this Province at the present time, Mr . Speaker, is the fact that young people are idle, they are sitting home, they have nothing to do, no activity. They cannot find jobs. The fu ture for these young people, a lot of them graduates of the post -secondary education institutions that I just mentioned, 5596

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2634 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, their future is very bleak. Right at the crucial time in their lives, in their careers,when they should be working they cannot find jobs and there is no hope on the horizon. We were told by the Premier last week that there are 500 Summer jobs in the public service and the deputy ministers would assign these jobs. We know that is not correct, Mr. Chairman, we know that the ministers will try to manoeuvre their constituents into these jobs, the same as the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr.

Power} tried to do with the assistant forest ranger last week down at Paddy's Pond. The hon. gentleman made a noble attempt to try to get one of his constituents into the job and he failed because his constituent did not have the qualifications. There were three students from the College of Trade~, forestry students, who applied for these jobs who had all the qualifications. But we know, Mr.

Chairman, that these jobs are going to be passed out to supporters of the administration, they are going to be passed out along partisan political lines, that the ordinary Newfoundlander will not have a chance, will not get a crack at these jobs, Mr. Chairman. The Premier tries to portray the image of honesty and integrity and here is an opportunity, Mr. Chairman, for him to show his sincerity, to show how sincere he is about honesty · and integrity in politics.

All they have to do is advertise these 500 jobs and give all Newfoundland students -a crack at them, give all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians a crack at these jobs. But, Mr. Chairman, they will not do that because they do not want to give up their political patronage, they do not want to give up this little perk that they have of passing out jobs · to their pals ·, to their friends, s·ons and daughters of their supporters. That is 5597

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2634 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: why they will not advertise these jobs. That is why they will not allow these jobs to go through the pubic service, Mr. Chairman, and I think it is shameful 5598

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2635 JV - 1 MR. NEARY: An awful lot of young Newfoundlanders were hoping to be able to apply for these jobs. Hhen they heard that there would be 500 Summer jobs, Mr. Chairman, we had a lot of enquiries from young Newfoundlanders who are unemployed, graduates of the University and of the College of Trades,who said that they would like to get a crack at these jobs, But they are not going to be given the opportunity, Mr. Chairman. That is integrity and honesty for you all right : Pius words is all we hear from the hon. gentleman but he never puts his words into action, So, Mr.

Chairman, we intend to stay in this House as long as we can. We hope, before we are finished, to be able to shame the administration into bringing in concrete plans to stimulate the Newfoundland economy and to do something about the 60,000 Newfoundlanders who are unemployed at the presenttme.

We hope to be able to convince and persuade the administration we can stay here long enough, of the necessity to deal with the crisis in the Newfoundland fishery, to deal with the situation in Corner Brook, the situation in Labrador West 1 where owners of mobile homes who have been laid off by the mining companies cannot even get assistance to move their homes to the Island. They cannot sell them. government has abandoned the people of Labrador West, they coUidnot get any action on ... contracting out now they cannot get any action on t:heir mobile homes and they stand to lose everything, Mr. Chairman.

We think the government. have been in this House now long enough, We have had a Throne Speech, we have had a Budget Speech; these are two great opportunities in this House, especially the Budget 5599

Nay 27, 1983 Tape No. 2635 JV - 2 MR. NEARY: Speech ,for the government to lay out its plans for development, lay out its plans for developing our natural resources,to lay out plans for unemployment and for the fishery, for Buchans and for Labrador City and Wabush 'and Corner Brook and Bel1 Island and Happy Valley/Goose Bay and the Baie Verte Peninsula and all the other areas of Newfoundland that are on the misery list. But have they done that, Mr. Chairman?

No, they have come in day after day with Ministerial Statements that are completely irrelevant to the problems in this Province, to try and make themselves look good. Statements like the one we had yesterday from the Minister of Development (Nr. Windsor} ,who told us that they had done another study and the study had shown that in the foreseeable future : no aluminum smelter would be established in this Province . The y spent $500,000 on that study, Mr . Chairman, and they found out nothing. 5600

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2636 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: We are about as close now to an aluminum smelter today as we were three years ago,when they started that study ~ It is a new techn~que they have now, study everthing. They are going to have the Province studied to death. And then they come in patting themselves on the back, . . I pounding their desks over there. A minister will come in and say, Look, here is a study, we just did a study and we proved that this can be done or that can be done, or this is not feasible, or that is feasible or that is not feasible, just completed a study. Mr.

Chairman, they will do some crowing and shouting and pounding on their desks if they ever get a project off the ground. They have not had one new industry or one new mine opened in this Province in eleven years of Tory Government. MR. CHAI:m!AN (McNicholas) : Order, please! The hen. member's time has elapsed. On motion,resolution, carried. Hotion that the Committee report having passed a Bill consequent thereto, carried. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 1, Bill No. 45. A bill, "An To Amend The Gasoline Tax Act 1978". (Bill No. 45). MR. CHAIRMAN: The hen. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS : Mr.

Chairman, Bill No. 45 is entitled, "An Act To Amend The Gasoline Tax Act,l978", and we are debating a resolution in regard to it which states: "That it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend the Gasoline Tax Ac~,l97B r~lating to the imposition of a tax on marine fuel for certain boats and vessels~ And 1 as han. members will recall, this was indicated in the Budget Spee~,that this is just about 5601

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2636 NM- 2 DR . COLLINS : the only ne\of tax initiative we are "undertaking in the current budget. AN RON. MEMBER: That is not true. MR . MARSHALL: Could the minister speak up , we cannot hear him? OR . COLLINS: The first clause of the bill actually indicates what we a.re going to do, we are goitng to exact a tax of 1 cent a litre on all gasoline. Mr . Chai~an, the second clause repeals a

section of the act , 5602

May 27, 1983 Tape No,2637 MJ - 1 DR. COLLINS: That

section at the present time exempts commercial vessels in extra-territorial waters from tax. So we had to repeal that to qet our provision in place. The next section,

Section 3, authorizes the exoansion of regulations to allow the tax to apply to prescribed vessels and in the regulations the prescribed vessels will cover foreign vessels, foreign fishing fleets, supply vessels. I~ '~ill not cover ferries, that is vessels going between this Province and other .provinces, it will not cover Canadian fishing vessels and so on. UR. 'VJARREN: What about offshore oil rigs? DR. COLLINS: And offshore rigs. HR. NAP..REN: Are they included? DR. COLLINS: Yes. MR. ~·7ARREN: That is not (inaudible). DR. COLLINS: In terms of fuel consumption, yes. .!-1R. NA..l'ffi.EN: Supply ships'? DR.

COLLINS: Supply ships, yes. So, Mr. Speaker, this bill then will have retroactive effect ., and the regulations Nill have retroactive effect to the date of the budget announcement. I think, Mr. Speaker, that does give the details. Just to be absolutely sure I will repeat: The vessels that will be prescribed will be foreign fishing vessels - in other words, the tax will apply to them - foreign fishing vessels, offshore supply vessels, 'vessels operating outside waters within the jurisdiction of the Province except commercial ferries operating on regularly scheduled routes and oil rigs.

So those are the ones which will be liable for this tax. I might just remind han. members, as I indicated in the Budget Speech,that a similar tax is in place in certain other provinces, I know in Nova Scotia and I believe also in British Columbia. 5603

May 27, 1983 MR. WARREN: DR. COLLINS: MR. WARREN: provinces. MR. HODDER.: MR. CHAIRMAN . (Aylward) : au Port. MR. HODDER: a lot to be sa;id Tape No. 2637 MJ -2 Two provinces? Two marine provinces. Yes, but there are f~~e mar~ne Mr. chairman. The hpn. the member ear Port Mr. Speaker, ther,e is nbt 5604

May 27, 1983 Tape 2638 PK - 1 MR. HODDER: about this bill, I suppose it is a relief that it does not tax us, but it does tax foreign vessels in our waters. But, Mr. Chairman, there is a word of caution 1I might add, that whenwe are . taxing particularly foreign fishing vessels, vessels which have the choice of using St. Pierre and r1iquelon or the port of St. John's and the word of caution is, I believe, that we have to be very careful that we do not tax foreign fishing vessels to a greater extent than they would pay.

In other words,we have to be careful that we do not lose the wharfage and the business that it brings in 1particularly to the Port of St. John's, that we do not lose those vessels and the income to a port such as St. Pierre and Miquelon. Well, Mr. Speaker, as a tax provision it is one that taxes foreign vessels , offshore rigs, and will not have an effect on the fishermen of this Province. 'I would say, Mr. Speaker, that when the minister introduced the bill, he said that it was the only tax provision,or one of few tax provisions that came in this Budget. DR. COLLINS: Just about. MR. HODDER: Just about.

I would say to the minister that it may be one of the few tax provisions, but there are other ways of raisingrevenue, as this government has become very creative in doing,through the raising of fees. In the last three successive Budgets the government have continued to raise all types of fees to people across the ProvinGe, on everything from rabbit licences to motor vehicle licences, the list is endless. And I would say to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins} that this type of 5605

May 271 .1983 Tape 2638 PK - 2 MR. HODDER: taxation is harder on those who can afford it least. And the government have been bn a trend now over the past three or four years,of raising the cost of almost every service that a person can get which is controlled by this government. And I would say to him that while this may be one of the fe\v tax provisions, the government is really in effect taxing the people of the Province in another \vay 1 through the raising of fees and this taxation, of course, is detrimental to the low and middle income e-arners of this Province. 5606

May 27, 1983 Tape 2639 EC - 1 MR. HODDER: Mr. Chairman, as far as the bill is concerned, I would stress again - a word of caution - that when we impose those taxes we must be careful that we do not - and I do not thin~ in this case we have done that, Mr. Chairman, but we must be careful that we do not drive foreigners, particularly foreign fishing fleets, to other ports. MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. The han. the Leader of the Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to • delay the passage of this bill, except to reiterate what my han. colleague has just said about this tax.

It goes to show how desperate the administration are for money, Mr. Chairman. They are really now down to the bottom of the barrel when they bring in this kind of a tax. They are desperate, strapped for funds, Mr. Chairman, when they will take a chance on driving the foreigners away from our ports, especially from the port of St. John's. When they will gamble the future of the port of St. John's on bringing in this tax, Mr. Chairman, it just goes to show how desperate they are. Desperate men will do desperate things, and this administra­ tion are desperate.

And there is a real danger that they could force the foreign fishing vessels and other ships· that come in to St. John's and into other ports in Newfoundland that they could force them to ~la~es like St • . Pierre. MR. MARSHALL: And Halifax. MR. NEARY: does ,it not? MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: No, Nova Scotia has the tax, To P.E.I. they will go. Nova Scotia has the tax. They could force them to Quebec or Prince Edward Island or to St. Pierre or to New Brunswick, Mr. Chairman, any of the 5607

May 27, 1983 Tape 2639 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: ports along the Eastern Seaboard o£ Canada where they do not have this tax, these vessels would be encouraged i.n ,future to go . Mr . Chairman, nobody likes paying out money unnecessarily, and I am sure that if these shipping companies and these fishing companies can f:Lnd ports of call where they can get the gasoline and the fuel that they need without too much steaming time involved, that is where they are going to go, Mr. Chairman . 5608

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2640. SD - 1 MR. NEARY: And so,as my colleague rightly points out, there is a real danger in this tax. Mr. Chairman, there is an expansion going on down at the CN Dry Dock, they are putting in a syncrolift. Well, let us hope that this sort of action on the part of the provincial government will not be counter-productive as far as the CN Dry Dock is concerned and the Port of St. John's is concerned. Now, Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) in his cute little way said there were only two or three tax measures in the budget and this happened to be one of them. Mr.

Chairman, the han. gentleman could not do any more damage than h.e has done, especially a year or so ago,when they changed the Gasoline Tax Act in this Province. One time the gasoline tax was a flat amount straight across the board. A year or so ago the han. gentleman put it on a percentage basis so that everytime the price of gasoline goes up the provincial government automatically gets its pound of flesh. They no longer have to bring an amendment to the Gasoline Tax Act into this House. A pretty slick manoeuvre on the part of the administration.

The price of gasoline and the price of tobacco 1 they put them on a percentage basis, they do not have to answer to this House any longer. It was a pretty slick manoeuvre, Mr. Chairman, on the part of the Minister of Finance. But I hope the han. gentleman did not thi .nk that he was fooling anybody when he put that on a percentage bais. Now they hope and pray - the han. gentleman must get down on his hands· and knees · every night before he goes to bed and hope and pray tha .t the price of gasoline will go up. The hon. gentleman has a vested interest in inflation.

They are hoping inflation will become rampant, the price of gasoline w:ill go up, because the Province stands to get more revenue. 5609

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2640 so - 2 DR. COLLINS : That is a good debating point, but there is no validity to it. MR . NEARY: There is validity to it, Mr . Chairman, it is not merely a debating point. DR . COLLINS: It is the same as the ~ncome Tax . I Act they tax on a percentage of your tabable income. MR . NEARY: Mr. Cha irma n, there is no comparison between the Gasoline Tax Act and the Income Tax Act . That is not a reasonable comparison .

The hon. gentleman can gloat now about the revenue that is coming in from the gasoline tax as a result of thi s change in the act , by removing the tax, which was a flat rate previously and changing it to a percentage basis . Mr . Chairman, I hope nobody in this Province is being fooled 5610

May 27, 1983 Tape 2641 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: by that slick manoeuver on the part of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins),who no longer has to answer to this House. The han. gentleman no longer has to come into this House to ask for amendments to the Gasoline Tax Act. He nDlonger has to do that, he can I just sit back now, hope that the price of gasoline will go up 1 and watch the money roll in. And as my han. colleague rightly pointed out, Mr. Chairman, practically every permit and every licence in this Province has gone up in the last few years, in the last three or four years. MR.

TULK: They cannot find anything else. MR. NEARY: As my han. colleague for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) reminds me, they cannot find anything else to tax or to increase the fees on. MR. HODDER: Well, of course, we realize that the people who do not get moose licences still have to contribute $5 . MR. NEARY: That is right. Even people who apply for moose licenc~s now,who are not successful,have to contribute $5 to the Public ~reasury, even if they do not get their licence, even if they are not successful, just for the privilege and the honour of sending in their application, MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: Minister of Finance. MR.

CARTER: MR. NEARY: MR. CARTER: MR. NEARY: They have to pay $5 for it. they have to pay $5 to the For what? Even if they do not get a licence. For what? For what? That is what we would like to know, for what? We have not seen any - MR. CARTER: What licence are you talking about? 5611

May 27, 1983 Tape 2641 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: I am talking about a moose licence. They send in their money for a moose licence - MR. TULK: For hunting dumo animals like the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter). DR. COLLINS: Moose do not run on - MR. NEARY: No , the han. gentleman made a blanket statement• a kind of general statement when he introduced this bill by saying, Oh , we have not brought in many tax measures in the last several years. MR. TULK: Looking for licences to hunt now is - MR. NEARY: It is a wonder the hon. gentleman is not struck down in his tracks, Mr. Chairman.

It is a wonder that a bolt of lightning does not come out of the blue that would strike the han. gentleman down. The face of a robber's horse to stand in this House and say, Well, we have not brought in many taxes. We have the highest re~ail sales tax in the whole of Canada, the highest personal income tax, provincial income tax. MR. TULK: And they were the people who brought in the floating tax on gasoline. MR. NEARY: And they brought in the floating tax, it slides up and down. The hon. gentleman hopes that it will never go down 1 that it will keep going up . because ~hey have a vested interest in inflation. DR.

COLLINS: Actually, it went down recently. Did you know the tax on diesel fuel went down recently? MR ." TULK: And now they are forcing the police to collect more revenue for them. MR. NEARY: And now,as I indicated the other day, _they are forcing the Newfoundland Constabulary to collect revenue. And, Mr. Chairman, I might say since I made that statement the other . day that I have had it confirmed by 5612

May 27, 1983 Tape 26 41 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: members of the force that they are operating on a quota. They are operating on a quota. The Minister of Justice {Mr. Ottenheimer) denied there was a quota system. MR. MARSHALL: I know you will say there is some relevancy', but what you are talking about is a Gas Bill· What does that have to do with the Gas Bill? MR. NEARY: Well, it is a Tax Bill. MR. MARSHALL: It is a Tax Bill, yes. MR. NEARY: Right. So, Mr. Chairmari, while we are not going to delay the passage of this Bill , we again have to issue a warning to the administration and to especially the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). 5613

May 27, 1983 DR. COLLINS: the weekend? Tape No. 26 42 NM - 1 Do you want a scoop for Now,this has not been announced,really,before. Why do you not say in the House here that the tax on diesel fuel actually went down recently because of our ad valorem tax2 That would be a scoop. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, this tax could be counter-productive. It could endanger the business that we are getting now from :.the foreign fishing fleets and from other ships coming into Newfoundland ports. We hope.that it will not. It is going to have to be watched yery carefully. If business starts to drop off because of this :·tax, Mr.

Chairman, then the administration will immediately have to take a look at it. I do not know how much money is being left in the Port of St. John's by the foreigners but I would suspect that there is a fair amount spent in the stores and in the clubs and down at the dry dock. I would imagine there is a fair amount of revenue that comes into this port and into other ports of entry in this Province. So, Mr. Chairman, we should not do anything to drive that business away from Newfoundland. God only ~we are in dire straits now. So we hope that this will be watched very carefully.

I understood from the hon. gentleman 1I believe, that the CN ferries would not be liable for this tax, is that correct? Ferries operating between North Sydney and Port aux Basques would not have to pay this tax. DR. COLLINS: No, they will .·not be. . MR. NEARY: And I would assume that - .. MR. TULK: Now do not give them any more ideas. MR. NEARY: - no. I would assume that companies operating between St. John's and Montreal will not have t.o pay 5614

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 26 42 NM - 2 MR. TULK: If you bring that up now the next thing they will tax that. MR. NEARY: I know they are looking for other things to tax. MR. HODDER: I realize that. That is the only th~g they have not taxed yet. MR. NEARY: They have not taxed the number of t:Utes ¥OU go to the bathroom yet. No doubt they are thinking about that too. MR. CHAI:RMAN (Aylward} : member's time has elapsed. Order, please~ The hon. On motion,resolution, carried. Motion, that the Committee report having passed a Bill consequent thereto, without amendment, carried. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Chairman, we are in Committee of the Whole now so I thi·nk we will call order 3, Committee of the Whole on the Bill, "An Act To Establish An Economic Council .For 'flle Province." (No. 11. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order 3, Bill No. 1. MR; NEARY: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I will wait until we get down to the proper clause in this act, the appoin~ment of the members, because the Board of Trade, following 5615

May 27, 1983 Tape 2643 EC -1 MR. NEARY: second reading of this bill in the House the other day, the Board of Trade in a public statement, asked about funding for this council and also cautioned - MR. MARSHALL: Will the han. gentleman agree that we go through the accustomed procedures and wait until we get to that section? MR. NEARY: Yes, but I do not think there is any

section in here on funding, or is there? MR. MARSHALL: Well, I mean, when you come to the appointment of the council: the Chairman has to call the bill first. MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: title. MR. MARSHALL: did call the title. Call the title. The title, yes. Well, the Chairman did call the No, I do not think the Chairman MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward}: No, I did not call it yet. I am just looking for a-copy of the bill. MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. NEARY: Bill No. 1. Shall clause 1 carry? Mr. Chairman. The han. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Chairman, perhaps the two points that I want to raise can be cleared up under this

section of the act. It has to do with funding of the council. One of the weaknesses pointed out by the Board of Trade that seems ~o make some helpful suggestions to the administra~ tion -but when they do they get pounced on for it, Mr. Chairman. MR. TULK: Do not make him mad this morning, he is over. there eating sugar. MR. NEARY: No. Mrs. Fagan and the Board of Trade have tried their level best in the last year or two to 5616

May 27, 1983 Tape 2643 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: be helpful to the administration and all they get for it is abuse - nastiness and abuse and attacks from the administration. They cannot resist the temptation to attack somebody, Mr. Chairman. Anyway, the Board of Trade wanted to know and we want to know, and I imagine the people want to know 1 what about funding for the council? And what about the appointment of the members? MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: They will be political flunkeys. Oh, I know.

I understand that, but the Board of Trade in its simplicity and naivety, cautioned the administration about the appointments, about the caliber of people who will be put on this council. MR. TULK: They want fair play. MR. NEARY: They want fair play. MR. TULK: They want to do the right thing. MR. NEARY: The Board of Trade want to see the right thing done. But I have very grave doubts about whether the administration will agree to do that, Mr. Chairman. MR. TULK: you know they will not. MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: You do not have ~ny choice. I know, I know. Let us get on with it. Sure, go ahead.

These are the two main points on which we want a response. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the funding, the funding is covered in sections 13 and 14 of the bill which provides that'the expenses shall be defrayed out of money appropriated by the Legislature.' So each year there will be a vote come in from the Minister of Development's U~. Windsor) department for this amount and it will vary from year to year. I can say·right now that we are going to give 5617

May 27, 1983 Tape 2643 EC -3 MR. MARSHALL: it as much money as our resources allow but, .as with everything else in this Province, we would like to be able to put more money into every single programme.

Section 14 also says the budget will be submitted not late.r than September 30th in .each year so there is provision for funding. As to the adequacy of it, well, that wiJ.l remain to be seen. As to the han. gentle- man's -I am not going to respond. You know, the position with the Board of T:r:ade, 5618

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2644 MJ - 1 MR. MARSHALL: I do not think I want to debate as to the situation with the Board of Trade except to say that in recent times certain persons in the executive appear to be taking certain pas i tions ·, they are utilizing their undoubted right to critize and the government in a democratic society exercises it equal 'undoubted right to return criticism when an organization says something that they disagree with and I will leave it at that.

As to the funding, as with a lot of boards and organizations which are a matter of public interest I would not think we would need a great deal of funding of the nature mentioned by the han. gentleman. I am quite sure members of the Board of Trade themselves, if they have the interests of the community and the people of this Province in mind, that a large number of them would concur that with a council of t.us nature t.l-J.e errphasis should be on the natter of service to the Province rather than remuneration. So, that is my response to the Board of Trade.

They are very interested in everything that is going on in this Province which is their right,but this council is as much in the nature of a community service as anything else and is not to be deemed to sow~thing where somebody could get an appointment to make a lot of money. So, in answer to the question of the han. gentleman there is funding that is going to be provided, we are going to make it as much -'-. MR. TULK: Can vou tell us how much? MR. MARSHALL: No. Not at this stage, I cannot. It is going to depend on the assessment.

First of all, the council has to .submit a budget and then the government will look at it, but we will be as generous as we can in the circumstances. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 5619

May 27, 1983 10, carried. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : MR. HODDER: MR. CHAIRMAN: au Port. Tape No. 2644 MJ -2 On motion, clauses l through Shall clause 11 carry? Mr. Chairman. The hon. the member for Port MR. HODDER: Mr. Chairman, it is clause 11 that bothers me. Mr. Chairman,. clause 11 says, ''the purpose of this Act the Council shall (

a) report to, advise and make recommendations to the Lieutenant-Governor in Counc~~. through the Minister". Mr. Chairman, clause 11 (1) (b), "respond to requests from the Lieutenant-Governor in Council for commentary, evaluation", again respond to the Lieutenant­ Governor in Council, and the following clause 12 (a) "communicate frequently with the Minister in order to mutually identify", and cl,ause 12 (e) "report through the Minister on its findings". Mr. Chairman, this Council is not an independent body. }'!r. Chairman, I aee no reason why this Council should report through the minister.

I mean,that .i,s very specific, "report through the Minister". In other words1any f.i.ndings that this Council comes up with,they have to report through the minister on lts recommendations and finding~. Now, 5620

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2645 SD - 1 MR. HODDER: Mr. Chairman, these sections 11 and 12 take the independence away from the Economic Council and causes the council to become a bureaucracy. It is just another body which reports to the government. They cannot do anything, they have to report through the minister. Why is it that' this government did not have the courage to form an independent body which can report any way they please? But it is very specific that they must report through the minister.

They report to 1 advise and make ·recommendations to the Lieutenant Governor in Council, they respond to requests from the Lieutenant Governor in Council 1 and they report through the minister. So, Mr. Chairman, what kind of a body have we set up here? This is just window dressing. I mean, if these sections could be changed somewhat so that the body can become a truly independent body and report on anything they feel like.

If they feel that the government is going down the drain, I would like for them to be able to report that the economic policies of the government are pushing the Province down the sink, down the drain. Mr. Chairman, we have set up just another bureaucracy here made up of friends of th .e government who report and do the government's bidding. And there is nothing in here to show that as long as they have to report through the minister there is nothing there that makes them - I know the minister there opposite wants to get up, he is itching. 'MR. CHAIRMAN (.Aylward}: The han. President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: I hate to, you know, cut off the rhetorical tap of the hon. gentleman but, r mean, he should read the whole bill. I mean, first of all, Clause 3 of the bill when it establishes th .e Economic Council says -: 5621

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2645 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: rone of its purposes is to encourage informed public appreciation and debate of economic and social issues' , then it goes on , the very clause that he points out, Clause 11 (_2) says: 'The Council shall on its own initiative, or if directe9 to do so by the Lieutenant-Governor', but the point is, 'on its own initiative, conduct such studies, inquiries and other undertakings as may be necessary with respe~t to any matter coming within Seetin 3 or with respect to any other matter'.

And then it goes on in Claus-e 12 (_f)_, the very one the han. gentleman is talking about,to say, in addition to the other duties the Council may'cause to be published such studies and reports'. Now what greater degree of independence does the han. gentleman really want? MR. HODDER: Straight away it must report through the minister. MR. MARSHALL: Because this is the way in which government oper~tes~ I mean, all boards and corporations-have to report through a minister. That is to make a minister responsible with respect to the operation of the board and/or the corporation.

Every single board or corporation reports through some minister. And that is so that the han. gentleman there opposite can get up, you know, within the next two or three years -after that he will not have the opportunity but he can get up and wag his finger at the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) and grill him on the Economic Council. If we did not have that in there would be nobody in the House to whom the han. gentlemen could direct questions. The members of the Economic Council are not members of the Legislature. 5622

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2646 JV - 1 MR. MARSHALL: That is to give it full and complete accountability. This government is completely open and aboveboard in everything. It has established a council as it has established many other boards from time to time and has given them all the independence that is necessary,and not only have we given them the independence, Mr. Chairman, we will foster that independence and we will jealously guard it to be sure that we are getting independent views from people. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, it is not the full reports of the House we are concerned about it is the appointments on this Commission. MR. TULK: That is right. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, my colleague has a very valid point - the council reports to the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. I remember previously we had a Commission set up to study the fishery on the Connaigre Peninsula. Mr. Mercer was a one man Royal Corrr::ission - DR. COLLINS: A very fine report though. MR. NEARY: A very fine report but the trouble is it has not seen the light of day. It has not been tabled in this House and we cannot get it tabled in this House. MR.

WARREN: Why, I wonder? MR. NEARY: Why? I do not know why. Well, Mr. Chairman, there is the danger in having reports submitted to the 5623

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2646 JV - 2 MR. NEARY.: Lieutenant-Governor in Council. Why can we not get that report tabled in the House? DR. COLLINS: But that is not the case here. MR. NEARY: What is not the case? DR. COLLINS: They make their reports to us. MR. NEARY: Oh, I see. We take the han. gentleman's word for that,do we? t-:lr. Chairman, here we have an example of where Mr. Mercer made a study of the fishery on the Connaigre Peninsula 1 paid for by the taxpayers of this Province. We cannot find ·out how much the gentleman was paid and we cannot get a copy of the report.

Now, this is the same crowd who are now telling us, Oh, you have to trust us. How open they are, tr~st us. We are going to be fair, we will safeguard that privilege - MR. TULK: Lilly white privilege. MR. NEARY: They are so lilly white. There is one example. we do not know how much more information they are sitting on about Bowaters and about the fishing industry ~and the other - MR . . TULK: They are not sitting on any information about Bowaters because Bowaters do not tell them anything. MR. NEARY: Oh, I got a feeling they are sitting on information but, anyway, we will deal with that matter at another time.

So, Mr. Chairman, how can you trust this administration? How can'you trust them? The han. gentleman can get up and tell us all he likes, Oh yes, sure, this is going to be done, we are going to do this but the fact of the matter is that this council - there is no control over the appointments to it, they could be all Tory party supporters. They could all be political hacks. 5624

May 27, 1983 Tape No.2646 JV - 3 MR • .NE ARY : They might throw the odd one in to take the harm out of it, Mr. Chairman, That is the little manoeuvre they will lise, throw in the occasional one to take the harm out of it but I guarantee yo~ that it will be controlled, iilie .strings will be pulled by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. The Lieutenant­ Governor in Council is the Cabinet and the Council will report to the Lieutenant-Governor in Council and the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) will report to this House for the Council. Mr. Chairman, what about the discussions in Cabinet? What about all the things that can be buried enroute to this House? 5625

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2647 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: We will not be privy to any of that information. We should have the right, Mr. Chairman­ let me say this, the only fair and common sense way to do it is to have this committee report to a committee of the House. We should have the right - MR. HODDER: Say Public Accounts. MR. NEARY: That is right, report to the Public Accounts Committee or report to some other standing committee of this House, or come before the Bar of the House. lve have ample precedent in this House. We had the oil refinery when it was being built, we had Mr. Shaheen brought into the House.

We have had occasions in our history when people have been brought before the Bar of the House to answer questions. Mr. Cha"irman, let me ask the han. gentleman - the han. gentleman is turning away from me now because he cannot face the music- will we have access to that committee, will we be able to cross examine, question that committee as members of this House? The reports will be made to the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, they will debated down on the eighth floor of this building. We will not have access to the documents, to the working papers, to anything else. We will not know what is being said, Mr.

Chairman, s~ therefore,the dice are loaded. The Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) can come into this House and we can question him, he can tell us what he wants as he did yesterday with the whitewash job he did on the aluminum smelter. MR. HODDER: Or tell us nothing. 5626

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2647 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: No, it was a whitewash job. It would not be parliamentary for me, and I do not say anything that is not parliamentary, it would be unparliamentary of me to say that the hon. gentleman deliberately misled the people of this Province or misled the House, but he c·ertainly did a whitewash job. DR. COLLINS: You have not read 12 (f) • MR. NEARY: 12 (_f), what is in 12 (f}? Let us have a look at it. I did not read 12 (f), I do not have my glasses this morning, what does 12 (

f) say? - "cause to be pub-lished such studies", yes,cause to be published such studies, so what? DR. COLLINS: No, carry on, carry on now. MR. NEARY: - "and reports asutre prepared by or for the Council and engage in other activities to enforce and encourage further debate and response." MR. HODDER: They still have to report through the minister. MR. MARSHALL: They report through the minister, they report to the minister, completely open and aboveboard. MR. NEARY: But they do not report to this House. MR. MARSHALL: Yes, they do. l-1R.

NEARY: Through the minister. we ~ill on+y get in this House what the minister wants to give us. Mr. Chairman, in order to make it fair will the hon. gentleman amend this bill to make it mandatory for the council to appear before a committee of the House, a conunittee comprising of members of both. sides of the House? MR. MARSHALL: Perhaps we should get Mrs. Fagan in to report to the House. MR. NEARY: That is an independent group. Mr. Chairman, when .. we are debating estimates we can have the President of Newfoundland Hydro if the 5627

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2647 NM -3 MR. MARSHALL: You have even better than that, you have the minister responsible. MR. NEARY: If the administration agrees t'le can have the President of Ne\'lfoundland Hydro, \'le can have the Chairman of-the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation, 5628

May 27, 1983 Tape 2648 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: we can have the chairman of Newfoundland Farm Products sitting in with the minister while the minister is giving answers to questions and being cro~s-examined by committees. But we will not have access to this council, it will not be open, as the han. gentleman says. It will be spragged on the 8th Floor of Confederation Building, they will throw a sprag into it and they will only give this House and give us what they want us to hear. They will only tell us the'things they want us to hear. We will never know how much information is buried on the 8th Floor.

So,therefore, in order to make • it fair, Mr. Chairman, the council should answer to a committee of this House. It is the only fair way to do it. MR. WARREN: That is right. MR. NEARY: They are spending taxpayers' money, they are going to be funded by the taxpayers. !1r. Chairman, I cannot help using the example again of the Mercer report that was done on the Connaigre Peninsula. The hon. gentle­ man side-steps that, the han. gentleman will not deal with that head-on and tell us why that report has not been tabled in the House. MR. HODDER: By the way, the appointments should be made by the committee too. MR.

NEARY: That is right, the appointments should be made by this House. That is the only fair way to do it. The Board of Trade are absolutely cor~ect. The hon. gentleman can think what he likes about Mrs. Fagan, who, in my opinion·, is doing a remarkable job, a remarkable job! I must say that she is putting the Board of Trade on the map. She is fearless. MR. YOUNG: She is flattering New Brunswick more. MR. NEARY: The hon. the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) may not like her. 5629

May 27, 1983 Tape 2648 EC - 2 MR. YOUNG: She has one leg in New Brunswick and the other in Newfoundland. - MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Chairman, what kind of an insult is that? You would . not expect any better from the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young). You would not expect any better from tha han. gentleman, Mr. Chairman. MR. HODDER: MR. NEARY: You would from a minister though. You \'lould expect better from a minister, Mr. Chairman. You would not expect it from an individual but you would expect better from a minister of the Crown.

The han. gentleman does not realize that when he just spoke, he was speaking for the Premier and for the administration. HR. YOUNG: That was a co~pliment. MR. NEARY: It is some compliment, alright. Mr. Chairman, the han. gentleman says Mrs. Fagan has one leg in Newfoundland and one in New Brunswick. What an insult! What an insult, Mr. Chairman! At least she has not got one leg in the grave as the hon. gentleman has. MR. YOUNG: She is a former Liberal. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairman, I have no idea of what the lady's politics are. MR. YOUNG: I have. I have. MR. NEARY: Oh, . 'I have'.

The han. gentleman is a 'know-all', he knows everything, does he? I would love to have her as a supporter. I do not think the lady has ever indicated her politics to anybody, at least, not to my knowledge. MR. YOUNG: Her mother is a big Liberal worker, you should know that. MR. NEARY: Who? HR. YOUNG: Her mother. 5630

May 27, 1983 Tape 2649 PK - 1 MR. HODDER: In New Brunswick? The han. gentleman must be doing some nosing around, is he? MR. YOUNG: No, no! MR. NEARY: She is a very fine lady, Mr. Chairman, and I think it is beneath contempt for the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) to cast aspersions on the head of the Board of Trade. MR. HODDER: He will do that to anybody who speaks out against the government. MR . . MARSHALL: I did not know that to call any- one a Liberal was to cast an aspersion. MR. NEARY: No, no. That is not what the hon. gentleman is inferring, Mr. Chairman. MR. MARSHALL: man is out of order'. MR.

NEARY: This is a quote, 'The han. gentle- No, Mr. Chairman, what the han. gentleman is saying is that she is abusing her position. That is what the han. gentleman is saying. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: And I am saying the hon. gentleman should apologize for making that statement. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member•·s time had elapsed. On motion Clauses (11) through (15) , carried • . MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause (16) carry? MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman. MR. · CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker , I want to say a few words on Clause (16).

It looks like, by reading this Clause that this Council will have the authority to be a real estate agent. It is going to have the authority 'to acquire, hold, manage and dispose of real and personal property'. 5631

May 27, 1983 Tape 26 49 PK - 2 MR. WARREN: Now, Mr. Chairman, it sure looks to me, and not only to me, I would say, but to every Newfoundlander and Labradorian, that the one and only intention of this government in setting up this Economic Council - and I do not know if this is parliamentary or not is to be a bagman for this Conservative government ~ this Province. SOME H~N. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: If Viking gets its claim settled on the Upper -Salmon, they will have their election expenses for the next election. MR.

WARREN: Here is another example of where • this Conservative Government is going to get its £unds to carry on the next election. They will appoint sixteez:1 good buddies throughout this Province - in fact, I already know who five or six of them are; one is their bagman in Labrador - MR . NEARY : (Inaudible) Mr. Dobbin will be in there, Mr. Fahey will be in there (inaudible). MR. WARREN: - and what they are doing is saying, Okay; let us start acquiring real property. MR. HODDER: ·No doubt Mr. Strachan, too I guess. 5632

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2650 MJ - 1 MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, I will not be surprised to see how much Crown land in this Province will be diverted to this Economic Council and, within a matter of a year or so will be sold to private enterprise at a fantastic revenue for this council. And this is the whole intention o.f this government, to use this economic council to raise money in this Province for the sake of the administration, and it is as plain as the smile on the hon. member's . face.

We have · seen the economic picture in Newfoundland go down the drain so fast during the last four or five years that there is only one alternative, one avenue open and that is for this government to try to maneuver the people of this Province to save face and to do that they are going to use sixteen individual Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young) just said in referring to the President of the Board of Trade - she is a New Brunswicker, I presume - that she has one leg in New Brunswick and one leg in Newfoundland, I would venture to say, Mr.

Chairman, that on this Council you will see members with one leg in Newfoundland and one leg . in Scotland, and one leg in the United States and maybe one leg in Ireland somewhere. So, Mr. Chairman, you talk about people who can st~etch their legs a long ways, I would say on this committee you will see members whose legs will stretch much further than from here to New Brunswick..

So this is the intention of th.is government, to set up a high power - I do not know what you would call them, but almost like a squad, a high power squad in this Province to try to raise finances, not for the sake of the Newfoundlanders and Labradorians in this Province - MR. NEARY:" They managed to get funding for some of their buddies in Labrador before, MR. WARREN: That is right. - in fact, l believe there ~s something like $350,000 that has gone from this government 5633

May 27, 1983 MR. WARREN: Labrador. MR. NEARY: MR. WARREN: Tape No. 2650 MJ - 2 to a group or company in I hope they get it. Well, we will never know. But we will know, because one of those years, not too far 5634

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2651 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: down the road, the next election or so, we will know because we will come into power. Then we will find out how the $300,000 went to an individual in Labrador to continue in business. We will find out about that. And we will find out about how this government ·is trying to appear nice and "rosy to !he people, but underneath that thick skin it is nothing butdeceit to the people. And, Mr. Chairman, on Clause 16 of this bill, I would like the han. ·President of the Council (Mr.

Marshall) to get up and give a logical explanation why the Economic Council 1 which the minister said at the beginning is an arm to help government develop the Province, why government wants those si xteen people to purchase land and holdings and buildings . You know, within three or four years from now, if this bill goes through, they will own any bit of Crown land in the Province, all the Crown land in the Province will be occupied,and next year the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) will be saying he is going to plow roads into some cabins belonging to Cabinet Minist!=rs-which they are already doing.

In fact, out in Middl~ Gull Pond, Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Development has taken it upon himself,thro,ugh the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe)_ 1 to construct about a four kilometer road in past where th .e present Summer cabins are, four extra miles into the country, for four of his buddies to erect Summer cabins. Now we have almost four kilometers of road gone in past the original road for the sake of four of th .eir buddies to erect Summer cabins. Now, Mr. Chairman, this is the kind of thing we are facing with this government and here we have another blatant attempt a~ blindfolding the people.

I think the hon. minister should get up and explain what is the main purpose of this 5635

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2651 so -2 MR. NARREN: biJl instead of trying to rais~- the money for the next election for the Conservative Party in this Province? MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): MR. MARSHALL: The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Chai~an, he talks about Miss Fagan straddling Atl~mtic Canada, The hon. ge-ntleman's tongue straddles Canada, I mean, he has to be saying this with tongue in cheek.-he is laughing over there, he knows the difference. But just in case it is picked up by The Daily News ,which is about the only publication that might pick up this thing - MR. WARREN: The Daily 'New~ is a good paper. MR.

MARSHALL : -and it reports the \'lords of the ho.n. gentleman that ·we are using this for political purposes,, this is a normal procedure to put in any body of this nature , to give it the power to hold property. It also provides that they·may accept money for the purpose of investment and· 5636

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2652 NM- 1 MR. MARSHALL: it is to be.done in accordance with the Trustee Act. If the han. member reads the bill he will see that the Auditor General audits the accounts, so it is completely aboveboard. The han. gentleman knows the Economic Council is not for that purpose at all. The han. gentlemen opposite are not in the position of making appointments.

We are going to make appointments to this council of reputable, very highly regarded and esteemed business people, economists, · and people who are concerned with the economy of this Province, and that is going to be the sole and complete criteria. On motion clauses 16 through 24, carried. MR. HODDER: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The han. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER:

Section 25, "Subject to subsection (3}, the Council may cause to be published any studies and reports prepared for the use of the Council as it sees fit. (_2) "All reports and studies prepared by the Council under this Act shall be presented to the minister. (3} "After the milnister · has considered the studies and reports presented to him for a reasonable period of time, those studies and reports may be made public." Now, Mr. ChaiDman, I would urge, if this bill is going to mean anything at all, if this council is going to mean anything at all to this Province, I would urge the Government House Leader GMr.

Marshall) to change the word 'may' to 'shall', and that would make this bill muc~ more acceptable to this side of the House. 5637

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2652 NM-2 MR. HODDER: In other words, Mr. Chairman 1 what this se-ction is saying is that "the Council may cause to be published," but then the second

section limits that even further, saying it ."shall be presented to the minister." But it is subection (~) of

section 25 where the problem lies, th.e P'roblem with the whole bill, "After the minister has cons_idered the studies and reports presented to him for a reasonable period of time, those studies and reports may be made public." In other words, Mr. Speaker 1 what this

section is saying is that the minister does not have to make those reports public·, exactly \~That the Leader of the Opposition {Mr. Neary) was saying a fe,o~ minutes ago, that between the time the council reports to the minister and it is hashed out on the eighth floor, by the time it gets to the House of Assembly the min-ister can .make the decision that the report should not be made phblic, then it would become a secret docwnent. 5638

May 2"1, 1983 MR. NEARY: Connaigre Peninsula. MR. HODDER: Tape No, 2653 MJ '"' 1 Like the Mercer report on Yes, that is exactly ·as the Leader of the Opposition {!lr. ~leary) says, reports have been buried. Every session we run across cases where commissions are set up but never report. We have even had select committees of this House set up ~nd then dropped when they carne up with something which was embarrassing to the government. Mr. Chairman, the Government House Leader (Hr. Harshall) should consider changing one word in thi$ particular section, that those studies and reports shall be rn~de public. MR.

MARSHALL; Mr. Chairman, MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward} : The han, the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr, Chairman, \'That the han. gentler.1an should realize is there may be reports submitted b;r the council business activities and economic activities in this Province that the council itself may not wish at the particular time to make public because it m~y be detrimental to the concern upon which it is reporting. That is the reason.

I can only assure the han. gentleman that is the whole intent of til.is bill, "After the Hinister has considered the studies and reports presented to him for a reasonable period of time, those studies and reports may be made public.'' Well,they may be made public by the council if it wishes to. So, you know, I mean I would not agree ·to change the 'may' to 'shall' because it would make it imperative and it could result in reports having to be made public which the council itself deems to be not in.the public interest.But certainly the whole import of this is that the council may make it public after 5639

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2653 MJ · ~ 2 MR. MARSHALL: a reasonable period of time and it is not the intention of the government to do otherw~se, MR.NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : MR. NEARY: Mr, Chairman. The han. the Leader of the Oppos~tion. Now we have heard it, M~. Chairman, now we have confirmation of our suspicion about the han, gentleman. They will not change a word from 'may' to 'shall 1 be made public. In other words they want to · screen the submissions from the council, the papers and so forth. They want to screen it and only give the House of Assembly what they want us to hear, Mr ..

Chairman, That is the truth of the natter. MR. MARSHALL: No, no, no, MR. NEARY: The hon, gentleman says, 'No, no, no.' Well, what about the report on the Connaigre Peninsula, the Mercer report? What about that? MR. DUJN: Just read

Section 25 into the record and you interpret it yourself. MR. NEARY: M,r, cnairman, r have :r-ead .i,t, .~ave it here in front of me: ''After the ~linister has considered the studies and reports presented to h.i.m for a reasonable period of time, those studies and reports may be made public. " We say, 'shall be made public. ' HR. Dil\TN: MR. NEARY: That is onlv

Section 25 (3)~ And the han. gentleman now is using wishy-washy woras, trying to hide behina tnat clause~ HR. DINN: Read the whole thing. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman just told us that there may be things that the council, may not want to make public. Mr. Chairman, I could not think of one item that the council or the 5640

Ma y 27, 1983 Tape No. 2654 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: government would not want to make public. I could not think of one item. The only reason for this wording is so that the administration will only bring into the ·House what they want the Hous ·e to hear , what they want the members of .the House to know, they will not bring anything of an embarrassing nature to the administration, they will not bring anything like that into the House, Mr. Chairman. All we are asking is one simple change, one small change, change the word 'may' to 'shall', and they will not do it. Why will they not do it?

Because if we change it it would make it compulsor y to have all the information made public. They want to be able to hide things. They want to be able to intercept things on the eighth floor, this great open government. They do not want to level with the House of Assembly, Mr. Chairman. This whole thing is just a charade and a farce. That is all it is. And, as I said when we were dicussing the principle of the bill, it i~ just a move by the administration to try to make themselves look good, to try to leave the impression - MR. WARREN: Are -we going to vote for this? MR.

NEARY: No, we are not going to vote for this. - trying to leave the impression that they are doing something when in actual fact they are laying back on their oars, as they have been for the last three or four years, hoping that there will be an upturn in the economy in the United States that might overflow into Newfoundland.- MR. TULK: Hoping to be rescued hy the federal government. MR. NEARY: They ar~ hoping to he rescued by the Government of Canada, by Ottawa. They are hoping that Ottawa and Mr. Rea~an and Mr. Trudeau will be able to bring about an upturn in the economy and that is why they keep telling 5641

May 27, 1983 Tape NO 2654 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: their members over there , the caucus , they keep saying to their caucus, time is on our side, do not worry, boys, we have got two or three years. Things are turning around in the Onited States, things will turn around in Canada two or three years from now when we go to the voters, the whole thing will be completely turned around, it will all blow over, people will be after forgetting about the hard times and about the difficult decisions we have to make and about the taxes t..re had to put on them , and about o'ur 1 inactivity and ou r mismanagement.

All that will be forgotten. That will blow over . The teachers ' strike will be fOrgotten, the teachers will forget, Mr . Chairman, that is what they are hoping . And that is the kind of an administration 5642

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2655 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: we are dealing with so how can we trust them? All we are asking is to have this word changed from 'may' to 'shall' so that all the information will be made available to the mer.lbers of the House or to a committee of the House, but they will not do it, Mr. Chairman. Why will they not do it? They say, 'Oh, that is not our intent.' Well ,the road to hell was paved with good intentions. MR. TULK: There is something wrong with the appointments. MR. NEARY: The appointments? My dear fellow,you have not seen anything yet.

This is the crowd that wrote the book when it comes to political appointments. MR. MARSHALL: You have talked that out too. MR. NEARY: I know I have talked it out. I mean, what else can I sav? · MR. MARSHALL: The government has given you a reason why 111e will not do it. MR. NEARY: Yes, the government has given us a reason, we do not accept that reason. How may different ways can we put it to the administration? They will not listen to reason, they will not change anything, they are bullheaded, they are stubborn and contrary, they will not listen to reason or common sense, Mr. Chairman.

They sit over there,arrogant 1day in and day out and they will not even accept. a simple suggestion from members· of this House. All we want - just listen,one word - is 'may' changed to 'shall'. DR. COLLINS: You said it brice. ':!here are trNO s:b..alls in that. MR. NEARY: There is no shall in there~ "reports may be made public." The last line of paragraph (3)of

Section 25. Will the hon. gentleman ag~ee to change that? 5643

May 27, 1983 ~m. MARSHALL: HR. NEARY: Tape No. 2655 MJ .,. 2 T'7ill the hon. member sit down? Yes, okay. If the hon. gentleman will get up and make an amendment to that

section 1 I will take my seat. MR. MARSHALL: HR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : the Council. MR. MARSKALL: Mr. Chairman. The hon. the President of Well, now, ~-~ J:". C'l:lairrnan, the hon. gentleman can debate it from now until Doom's Dav. The I pcsition the _gove _:~ ent has taken with respect to it has been stated. That is our position and 1ve are not prepared to change it for the reason I have given.

There is no intention of having reports that are made put on shelves by the government and kept aside. ~he determinant of that is going to b~ the board itself 1 but there may come times when the board makes a report to the government which is not in the best interest of the people concerned to make public. That is lvhy the wording there is in such a manner that the report will be made public unless the board deems otherwise . That is the policv of aovernrnent and that is out position.

Now we can talk about it if you want to and we can go on talking about it from now until Doom's Day but the fact of the matter is we have heard 1-1hat the Opposition said, we have responded to them, we have ·not yet said, 'No, no, we are not going to do that,' we told them the reason whv, we think it is a good and sufficient reason and that is the situation. HR. NEARY: Well, we do not accept . it. MR. MARSHALL: Well, you do not accept it, that is fine. But,I mean,that is democracy. MR. NEARY: I know,but mayb~ in debate we might be able to pers~ vou to change your mind. MR.

MARSHALL: In the year 2190, when your great, great; ever-so-great grandchild might be in this House ,then a Liberal Government change but until then this is the way we go. 5644

Ma y 27, 1983 Tape 2656 PK - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN (A ylward) : The han. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: There we go , Mr. Chairman, the arrogance of the government shown to us and displayed as never before, that when a Liberal government takes over, when our great-grandchildren are elected they can change it, but the government is not going to change it. Mr. Chairman, I listened to the House Leader (Mr. Marshall), the member for St. John's East, I listened to his explanation and he said that the Council can decide. This

section says nothing about the Council. That is not what the

section says. It says 'After the minister has considered studies and reports presented to him for a reasonable period of time,those studies and reports may be made public.' That refers to the minist~r- MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. HODDER: - not the Council. DR. COLLINS: Read 25 (1). MR. HODDER: Now we might even accept that, but,you see, Mr. Chairman, the deck is stacked. First of all the government appoints; secondly, the minister is the person whom the council reports to. And if a report is prepared by this Council and it goes to government,it does not say that the Council can decide.

That is what the member for St. John's East was saying, that the Council would decide. But that is not what the

section says; it says the minister will decide. And, Mr. Chairman, we are asking for a very simple thing which would make this Council independent. If the Council saw fit - there is nothing about the Council here - the Council can prepare a report 5645

May 27, 1983 Tape 2656 PK - 2 MR . HODDER : on the economy of this Province, it can wish that it be published, but it must report to the minister and then the minister decides ~ he may or may not make itpublic. Now , Mr. Chairman, what kind of a situation can you think of where - when the member stands again,would be tell us what sort of situation, give us some speci£ic examples, where a report which was prepared by the Council,went to the minister MR. MARSHALL: May I make a suggestion to the hon . member? The hon . member is being extremely persuasive in his arguments .

I have not succeeded in being half as persuasive. That should give the hon. member a lot of confidence . Why does not the hon . member sit down and see whether he has persuaded other people in the ~ouse enough to carry his point? 5646

May 27, 1983 Tape 2657 EC - 1 MR. HODDER: What does that mean, Mr. Chairman? I do not understand what it means. I thought for a minute that the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) was going to stand up, that the Government House Leader was going to stand up and say yes. MR. MARSHALL: You do not understand wnat it means? Why do we not put it to a vote now? MR. NEARY: word has to filter out. HR. MARSHALL: out and it is 'arrogant'. MR. NEARY: is understood. MR. HODDER: No. Why put it to a vote? The Mr. Chairman, the word has filtered Well, we want to make sure it No, Mr. Speaker. A very, very simple amendment, one word, that is all we ask for, one word in one

section of tlEwhole act and then we would support the government. . DR. COLLINS : it, you reaily are. MR. HODDER: DR. COLLINS: MR. HODDER: MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : DR. COLLINS: In our view, you are -misinterpreting No, Mr. Chairman. Let me explain it to you. Okay, stand up and explain it. The hon. the Minister of Finance.

Section 11(2): 'The Council shall, on its own initiative .' undertake studies. Okay? Not 'may', 'shall', Alright? MR. HODDER: We can read. DR. COLLINS: Then we go on to annual report, 24 (2): 'The !!.inister shall cause the annual report and statenen.ts submitted,' not 'may' but 'shall'. So that says now that the council, quite without anyone's say-so, do whatever studies it says. It says it can put anything it wants into its annual report and the minister must put it into the House. 5647

May 27, 1983 Tape 2657 EC - 2 DR. COLLTNS: So that gives you a lot of clearance. But 25(1) is even more important. 25(1) says: 'Subject to subsection (3), the council may cause to be published any stucy,' not the Lieutanant-Governor in Council may cause it to be published, the council itself 'may cause to be published any study a~d report prepared as it sees fit.' So it is leaving it totally in the council's hand. 'Subject to subsection (3) ,' now what does clause 3 say? MR. HODDER: Look at subsection 25 (2) . DR. COLLINS : MR. HODDER: No, it says 'subject to subsection (3).

It is subject to subsection (2) as well. It says 'shall', it shall be presented to the minister. And then what does it say? It says that 'After the minister has considered the studies and reports presented to him for a reasonable period o£ time, those studies may be made public.' MR. MARSHALL: What a lucid explanation! He must be rounaly embarrassed. . MR. TULI<: Mr. Chainnan . 1-IR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The hen. the member for Fogo, 5648

~ May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2658 JV- 1 MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, we have just heard the logic of the man again. He is beautiful, he should do it more often. I think he went through and he said the Council shall carry outstudies. Yes, that is fair enough. And then I think he says, 'Who do they report to?' They report to the minister. MR. NEARY: And the minister may make it public. MR. TULK: Yes, may. He said they can put anything they wish in their report. That is fair enough. Then he said the council may make its report public. What Council?

The council that is going to be appointed by that government, their political buddies may make the report public. Mr. Chairman, I heard the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) just now make some disparaging remarks about the economic performance of Mr. Lalonde under his breath over there. He would do well this year, now to bring in a mini-budget, as he is going to do,but to make sure that that mini-budget contains some of the same kind of stbmllative measures that were contained in the Lalonde budget so. that unemployment in this Province can drop •. If they are really serious, Mr.

Chairman, about this economic council, _the concept of an economic council is a good idea. MR. NEARY: We have the example of the Atlantic Provinces Economic Council. MR. TULK: That is right. . ... . - -· MR. NEARY: Are we still a member of that? MR. TULK: I do not knm'/. It is hard to say what they are members of. The concept of an Economic Council for Newfoundland is a good one,because if you look at the performance of this government and look at what they 5649

May 27, 1983 Tape No.2658 JV - 2 MR. TULK: have been doing for the past couple of years 1 somebody needs to plan the economy of this Province and indeed make suggestions as to how it should be run. Let me say this to that government_which is so open. The President of the Council (Mr. Mar.shall) stands up, throws out his arms and says he is wide open. The only think he is wide open in is physically when he does that, because mentally this government has closed its mind all ready on good suggestions coming from anyBody. MR. NEARY: MR . TULK: Completely arrogant. They will not apologize. They will not apologize •.

I made an offer to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) just now about the lobster pots • . I have been travelling around this House making a suggestion to him. He tells me that ·he cannot 5650

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2659 NM - l MR. TULK: lower the price of the lobster pots because under the Financial Administration Act they have to recover the expenses that the lobster pots cost. MR. NEARY: Oh what nonsense! That is only an excuse. MR. TULK: Let us suppose that is true. I said, "All righ.t, if that is the case," I said to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), "if that is the case you go out, prepare a bill, and come into this House and in ten minutes this House will unanimously pass your resolution." He refuses to do it. MR. MORGAN: $7 is a reasonable price. MR. TULK: $7 is a reasonable price!

Now that is not the full story. The truth is that those lobster pots that are going to bast the fishermen of the Northeast Coast something like $10. MR. MORGAN: $7. MR. TU~: · No. The pots that you are talking about - do you not realize that? - the lobster pots that you are talking about h.ave no - MR. MARSHALL: MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas) : President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: relevance here - MR. TU~: MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. A point of order, the han.

Maybe I lost the trend of the Yes, you did. but we are on a bill with respect to the Economic Council, and we are in Committee, and we are talking about the release of a report of ~council. Now I suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, that in Committee certainly the rules of relevancy really have to be applied. The hon. gentleman is getting on lobster pots and all the rest of it. I mean we answered 5651

May 27, 19 .83 Tape No. 2659. NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: this situation with respect to it 1but it has no relevancy to this, unless I have missed something, the contorted reasonings of the hon. gentleman. MR. TULK: point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas) : the hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, to that· To that point of order, I was being entirely relevant, Mr. Chairman, because what I was doing was pointing out the need for an economic council to give this government some direction and I was using the lobster pot incident that we have- MR. MARSHALL: No, that is not relevant. MR.

TULK: He was talking, he should have been listening - as an example of the kind of direction that this economic council could give to this government. MR. MARSHALL: W~ll, that is a matter of opinion. MR. CHAIRMAN: I rule that it is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. The member for Fogo. MR. · ·TULK: Mr. Olai.rman, as I was saying in my example,before I was so rudely interrupted by good old sweetness over .there this morning-he has been eating lumps of sugar in the hope that he can stay sweet in order to 9et out of there, but he rudely interrupted me. Mr.

Chairman, the hon. gentleman makes me smile; when I see him smile I have to smile too because it is unusual to see that happen. Mr. Chairman, what I was saying was that here. was an example of ,where we could have said to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morganl this morning, we really could have done something for disaster areas if 5652

May 27, 1983 Tape No. 2659 MR. TULK: this government had been open to suggestions from people, as they must be open to suggestions from this economic council that they are trying NM - J to set up - or supposedly trying to set up. I do not believe that this economic council will be anything more or less than the same thing that we have got over there now. A group of people who agree with the government will be appointed those people who agree with whatever the government are doing, those are the people who we will see appointed. The President of the Council (Mr. Marshall), is going to smile again. MR.

BAIRD: That really throws you off. MR. TULK: That throws you off when you see him smile, that throws you off. I have to tell him, Mr~ Chairman, that I do not believe he is going to get out of here today, his vacation is still going to be interrupted. He may go on, I do not know, but he is going to be interrupted, 5653

May 27, 1983 Tape 2660 PK -1 MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, the Province do~s need economic direction. There is none in the han. Minister of Finance's (Dr. Collins) Budget. He has taxed everything he can find. 'He has very few other ·sources of revenue, and we need somebody to establish a good tax base for him. We need people to come in and advise this government. But it is of very little use to have Tories advising Tories, and that is what we are going to see with this Economic Council! We are going to see Tories advising Tories. MR. NEARY: Ask me Tory brother. MR.

HODDER: And in case there might be some little sense, the government has the ability to ignore the Council. MR. TULK: Oh, sure! __ Sure! .. MR. NEARY: They_ will toss in ~--c::ou_ple of gentlemen to try to make it look good. MR. TULK: They may, but I would not go so far as_ that-.: There will not be anybody on that Economic Council wl!q is not a Tory,. MR. NEARY: That is right. Anybody on that Council will be well checked out. MR. TULK: MR. MARSHALL: He would be well ph~cked out. We cannot find any Liberals in the Province except you p~ople. MR. TULK: I could name several for him, Mr. Chairman.

I would say that a good"person-and I do not really know what her politics is, I really do not -would be Christine Fagan. MR. NEARY: Yes, without a doubt. 5654

May 27, 1983 Tape 2660 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: The member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) would be delighted. MR. TULK: He is smiling again. Will you go out? You are making me laugh. You are eating lumps of sugar over there. MR. YOUNG: Sweet! Sweet! . MR. TULK: He is eating lumps of sugar. Christine Fagan would be a good choice. MR. NEARY: Harry Steele. MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: not get on • Harry Steele again. He is a good man,but he will MR. TULK: . Do you know khat they believe over there about Mr. Steele? They are starting to believe over there these days that Mr. Steele is a Liberal. MR. NEARY: DR. COLLINS: MR.

TULK: Steele. MR. NEARY: Is that right? I am looking after h~m. They are suspicious of Mr. They are suspicious of him because they cannot control him. MR. TULK: They cannot control him. And what they do not know is that Mr. Steele is the most conservative~ small 'c' conservative-man in this Province. He totally believes in private ent