VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT - HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. TUESDAY, JUNE 7, 1977 NO. 111

June 7, 1977 Tape No. 3878 The P.ouse met at lO:On A.M. ~. Speaker in the Chair. ~'R. SPEAKER: 0rder, please~ STATE~1'ENTS BY T--fiNISTERS: ;'-1R.. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Fisheries. MR. ~if. CARTER: ~~r. Speaker, I want to acquaint the House with certain amendments that have been made to the Fisheries NH - 1 Loan Board regulations. Last year we appointed a committee consisting of officials of the Fisheries Loan Board, members of the Fishermen's Union and others to take a look at the regulations governing the Fisheries Loan Board and to see if it was possible to make it more res?onsive to the needs of our fishermen. The Loan Board ~o1as established by

an act of this Legislature back in 1951, Mr. Speaker,and while it maybe served its purpose at that time, certainly things have changed and we felt that maybe changes were necessary. The Board re~orted about a month and a half, two months ago, and they made certai?J- recommendations. I am now very happy to give the House a breakdown of these regulations and tell them that all of them, almost without exception 1 have been accepted by government. For example, one very important change will be the reduction in the down payment required for the acquisition or construction of a new longliner.

Under the old regulations, Mr. Speaker, the down nayment required ~o1as ten per cent. ~ole have now reduced that to five per cent and that means 1of course,that on a boat that would normally cost- an average longliner, a fifty-two foot boat - $1SO,OOO, that is a diffe~ence between $7,500 and $15,000 and I am sure most members will appreciate that to a fisherman that means a lot. ~·Te have also, ~1r. Sreaker, increased the amortization period of the loans. We are now giving fishe~en loans for an 1.0904

June 7, 1977 Tape No. 3878 NM- 2 'fR. H. CARTER: eleven year period, The first year we vTill be · looking to the fishermen for payment on interest only; payment on -principal ~V'ill be deferred the first year to give the fishermen a chance to get started. We are also adding a new regulation to the Loan Board whereby we are now making loans for the rebuilding - and major repairs on ships not -less than tv1elve years old. Of course,under the old regulation the age limit was fifteen years. We have made amendments to the fishing shins bounties regulations providing for changes in the bounty payment system.

Under the old rules 3 fishennen ~.rere paid S200 per ton on vessels not less than ten tons, up to a maximum of 150 tons. The bounty will now be based or fifteen per cent of the overall cost of the vessel lvhich reuresents roughly a 401) per cent increase in the subsidy • . AN RON. ~~1BER: Hear ! Hear ! ~. W. CARTER: Under the old regulations the fishermen would receive a $5,000 bounty on a twenty-five to fifty-ova foot longliner, However, under the new system the bounty on that longliner,which cost approximately $150,000,will be $22,500. Like I say it is a 400 per cent increase.

We are making changes with respect to the bounty previously paid on vessels to a low of twenty feet in length, to a maximum of fQirty-five feet. Having travelled the Coast of Labrador and other parts of the Province, Mr. Speaker, it came to my: attention that in many cases a lot of fishermen could make a very good living in a boat less than twenty feet in length. In fact in Labrador South I think eighteen feet in length is pretty well the average for a boat.

They -requested that we consider reducing the subsidy on boats from twenty feet to at least eighteen feet to enable them to continue fishing in that small and very economic sized boat. \-le have acceded to their -, 1.0905

June 7, 1977 Tape No, 3878 t-lM - 3 ~fR. W. CARTER: request 0 We ~vill now pay a thirty-five Per cent subsidy on boats measuring in length down to and including eighteen feet and that,we think,is a very good move. These, Mr. Speaker, are pretty well the basic changes. The interest rate,of course,on fisheries loans still remains at three and a half per cent. And that represents a substantial saving to a fisherman. For example - MR . SMALU.TOOD: 'Hhat does the subsidy in effect cost thP o-m7<>~!'!e~t? ~. H. CARTER: I have it here - :'-1R. SMALL ~.JOOD : It would depend on how much they spen~,of course.

Rou~hly. ~ffi. W. CARTER: Let us, Mr. Speaker, take a longliner fifty- two feet in length, the cost of that boat would be approximately $70,000. Let us say $70,000. Or at least the 1 n~n on that lone:liner. thP. mnrt"a.!la<> . _, · . .:.,. . NR. NEARY:. For a multipurpose boat it cost $100,000 for a fifty- five foot longliner. mt. W. CARTER: No. No. The mortgage on fhat. .boat would be ap~roximately $70,000. At the preferred rate of three and a half per cent it means that government will be subsidizing that boat by $4,900 per year. MR. SHALLt.JOOD : Interest. MR. W. CARTER: Interest alone.

That is basing it on the current lank interest. MR. NEARY: And when will it become effective,by the way? MR. t-1. CARTER: Immediately. On a sixty-five foot longliner, :10906

June 7,1977 Tape 3879 - "'-1orning AH-1 HR .~v CARTER: on which the average mortgage would be $215,000, This means a direct saving to the fishermen of $15,000 a year, so every - }1R. SMALLHOOD: The difference between three and one half and, say, ten. MR .w.CA..RTER: one half. MR. NEARY: }'ffi. .tv CARTER: Retween three and one half and ten or ten and (Inaudible) fellows like Eric King. You know,these new boats, Mr.

Speaker, ,.,e are building now,for example, we are building, we have recently awarded­ or at least we are calling tenders now for a number of boats, part of the twenty boat package for thefirst of the five year one hundred boat building programme. These boats are sixty-five footers. The fishermen buying them would no doubt have a mortgage of $215,000 to $250,000 in which case,like I said,the government will be directly subsidizing that boat to the fishermen to the tune of $15,000. }!R.

SMALUJOOD: Is there any danger involved there of the fish- of course,how are they going to identify the fish from those boats? into the U.S.? ~m_. H. CARTER: But is it a subsidy really on. the fish going No, Mr. Speaker. We have gone into that and we are very conscious of the need to be extremely careful hecause we know what can happen if the word gets out that we are providing heavy subsidies on fish. You will find the U.S. fishermen, I am sure, would start pressuring their Senators and Congressmen for appropriate action to prevent that from happening.

So we are very conscious of that and I do not thinK there is any possible chance of there beini any repercussions in that respect. ~. S~ALLHOOD: That is good. MR. W. CARTfR: Mr. Speaker, this is just part of the government's programme to revitalize the inshore fishery and I am sure this will 1.0907

June 7,1977 Tape 3879 - Horning AH-2 MR. H. CARTER: be welcome news to most fishermen around the Province today. SOME 'HON.HE'MBF.RS: Hear, hear! ' HR. SPEAKER: (Dr.Collins) I understand the hon,member for Fogo is deputizing for the Leader of the Opposition. The hon.member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: I am not de?utizing for the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Speaker, but I am speaking on behalf of this side and I am sure ~ve all agree that the announcement made by the Hinister of Fisheries · ~vill be very welcome ne~vs to the fishermen of this Province.

And in the areas which the minister mentioned they are all improvements over the programmes which existed prior to this date. I always contended-, Mr. Speaker, that the down payment of ten. per cent was very often out of reach of a great many fishermen who wished to purchase or construct their own longliner. Five per cent now makes it within the reach of anyone,! think,desirous of building or getting a boat built. And,as I say,it cannot be anything but well received by the fishermen. Having not seen the statement by the minister it is difficult for me to recall it all.

I ~ade a few notes here of some of the important points which the minister outlined in his I statement. The increase being ' in the period of time to pay off a boat,that is certainly a good idea because with the increased cost and the increase in the cost of shipping , and all thin~s oertainin2 to boats today have and are increasing daily and in order to compete and be able to pick up where,for instance, a fisherman was last year he would need certainly an increase overall this year because things are just beginning to get out of reach of the fishermen. ~-.Je find ourselves today, Hr.

Speaker ·, where ~ve have so many young men. I was amazed!Last weekend I spent the weekend in Fogo district and I was amazed at the number of young 1.0908

June 7,1977 Tape 3879 - Horning AH-3 CAPT t~INSOR: fishermen, young men,who came to me and said "Look, can you help me? I cannot find any work~ There is nothing else to do now only go to the fishery~ and yet we cannot afford to get into the fishery either by license or getting a boat and a number of problems which are presented by trying to get into the fishery;• It is unbelievable MR. SHALL WOOD : Is that fairly general through the district? CAPT. lHNSOR: It is general I would say not only through Fogo district but the whole Province.

There are more young people today trying to get into tr.e fishery than I would say perhaps for fifty years because all down through the early ages and in my younger years,of course,you were chastised when you were going to school, "Get your grade eleven. Do not go into the fishing boat. Do not go fishing. 11 That tune has changed today and people now realize that if they are to make a living for themselves and their families as the economy of the Province is at this present time the only hope they have is in the fishery.

And I am very pleased, and I am sure all members on this side -of the House are-·very- pleased, that the minister is taking some positive action along those lines. Now I see where a young man,if he is industrious, got the energy.and as the old saying has it, "the guts," the facilities are therP for him to be able to at least get a boat and I co~end the minister along those lines. :10909

June 7, 1977 Tape no. 3880 Page 1 - l!!S ~WTICS OF ~OTTOX: :r~?_. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins) : Affairs a:1d nousing. !·[r. Speaicer, I give notice that I \vill on tomorror.; ask leave to introduce the folloT.T-_:ng 'o-1lls "~- .\ t T w ..._ , ;~u .t-~.C 0 Establish The St. John's Urban Region," and "An Act Respecting Elections To The Council Of The City Of St. John's .• " ~~. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. !!IR. NEARY : ~!r. Speaker, I give notice that I ~·rill on tonorrow -r..ove the folloT.;ring resolution : \~iliREAS the general level of physical fitness of the youngsters in our school. systen1 '\vould appear to have reached a new· low; -· A1~

WHEREAS the present school system fails to timetable any real form of physical training into the daily programme in our school system; ~~D WHEREA§_ a_goo~ _ deal ot_provincial money is spent qualifying academically physical education teachers; THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that a special committee of the Legislature be established to inquire into the whole matter of physical training for all youngsters from kincergarten through to Grade XI in our school system and the advisability of setting up a formal programme aimed at regular exposure of all students to physical training as opposed to the present set up which throws the emphasis on participation by the few interim sports that are of dubious value in developing the actual physical fitness over that of the minority. Z.1R. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Education. :!R. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I 'tvill on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, 11

An Act Further To Amend The Education Teachers Pension Act, No. 2. 11 ~- !R. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I \rill on tomorrow ask leave of the han. House to introduce a bill, 11

An Act To Amend The Public Service Pensions Act. 11 1.0910

June 7, 1977 Tape no. 3880 Page 2 - ms HR. DOODY: And, Hr. Speaker, I wonder would it be possible to ask the House's permission later on this morning to revert back to Statements. There is a meeting scheduled for 10:30 A.M. between Treasury Board and the \Vaterford unit, and after that I think that ~ve should be in a position to let the House and the Province know what the situation is ~vith Waterford. MR. NEARY: }fR. DOODY: Adjourn the whole Question Period. Well, I may not have the information then,as I say. The union is meeting at 10:30 A.M. and presumably they will be at it longer than that. }!R.

SPEAKER: It is my understanding that the hon. Minister of Finance may request the House to give him leave to make a further statement at a later hour. SOME HON. MEHBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Ninister of Mines and Energy. ~lR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Control The Rates Of Newfoundland And Labrador Hydro And To Declare A Provincial Pmver Policy." ~IR. SPEAKER: The han. House Leader. HR. HICIQAMJ: Hr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills: a bill, "An Act Respecting Certain Leasehold Interests Within The City Of St. John's, :r a bill, "An Act To Restructure The Law Society Of Ne~vfoundland." J..nd on behalf of my colleague, the hon. Minister of Health, a bill, "An Act For Th.e Protection Of The Health Of Persons Exposed To Radiation And For The Safety Of Persons In Connection With The Operation And Use Of The ~lectrical And Mechanical Components Of Radiation ?roducin~ Equipment And Ass.ociated Apparatus." 1JJ911.

June 7, 1977 Tape no. 3880 Page 3 - rns ORAL QUESTIO:;-s: :m. SP::A ... '<E ; The han. member for Eagle River. l:fR. STRACHAN: A question for the Minister of !~ines and Energy on the statements ~ade by Mr. jamieson. Could the minister tell us exactly what kind of comprehensive package they are talking about in the development of >.ydro pm.rer in this Province and especially related to Labrador and -the -Gull Island development as !·;rell as the four or five rivers flo~ving into Quebec? ::.m. SPE..-\i{ER: The han. Hinister of ::.fines and ~ .r. Speake r , for .... agle ,:ive r (~! r.

Strachan) for all c;.ring !:!e t o respond on oe half of government as ' t relates to statements emanati~g from the most disti.'igui s 1ed XP for "Burin - Bur gee , the hon . . . Jamieson , ~~~ inister of E:.ternal Affai:-s . ?irst of al2., ~l r. Speaker, I ~·iou ld li:.::e to say t_ at I •·1el co~e verv much t he statements made by the ::ton. :lin is ter . I think they :=.re-extremely po.sitive, and. I _agJ._y e-ry deligl'~~ ed to hea-r statesent s coming frora senior minister s in Otta~.;a of the nature of the ones that have issued last night and this ~orning .

They are extremely rewarding to me, and I atn sure to all members of this administration. 1JJ912

June 7, 1977 Tape 3881 (Morning) PK - 1 SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, there has not been a comprehensive package as it relates to the overall hydro development of Labrador either presented by the Provincial Government to Ottawa or from Ottawa to us.

In the recent meetings that the hon. the Premier, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and myself had in Ottawa as it relates to the priorities of the Province~one of the major agenda items concern the whole question of power as it related to Gull Island and all the other hydro potentials in that part of our Province, as well as on Island hydro sites in the interim.

And it was indicated to us verbally - we indicated verbally to the Federl Government in these meetings that we thought it was necessary to look upon the whole question of h¥dro electric power as a package situation, include everything,and develop the strategy on the basis of that rather than . . go piecemeal or ad hoc on a particular project to the exclusion, detriment or otherwise of the rest of the rivers or possible potential sites.

As a result of that informal, verbal meeting between ministers there was a follow up meeting between officials of the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources in Ottawa with members of Newfoundland Hydro on May 18, 1977 in which the whole question was considered again. There was no indication from the officials of EM and R that they had any new initiatives to present. They wanted to see where the Province stood and so on.

We indicated to.them that we want the whole question of the Upper Churchill power contract to become part of any strategy, that all of the other rivers as well as Gull Island be fully considered. They mentioned in their meetings with us in Ottawa the possibility, only verbal and it has neverbeen written, of equity participation by the Federal Government in the Gull Island project per se, which we said looks attractive, and we would like to 1.0913

June 7, 1977 Tape 3881 (Horning) PK - 2 Mr. Peckford: see some more tangible,concrete proposal come from that verbalization. That has not occurred. In any case,in the meetings that we had on May 18, Newfoundland Hydro reviewed all of those things with the officials from EM and R,indicated to them its overall concern again, the whole concept, the big concept of all th~ power developments.

There have to be studies done on these rivers that are ongoing now from the fifty-fifty thing that was announced a little while ago between DREE and ourselves about getting some feasibility studies done on the rivers, to get exactly what the megawatt potential is on the rivers, the engineering feasibility, the cost, the (igures and all the rest of it which would have to be done. So we ar~ looking at a long term proposal the first phase of which mai.__.E_e some Gull Island work and some feasibility design work on the other rivers.

We indicated to the Federal Government on May 18 that in the interim there were a number of studies that we would like for both governments to fund now. One dealt with more investigation on the tunnel crossi~g and a full review of the latest cable technology to ensure that when Gull Island does begin again,which it must and will, that the alternatives as it relates to the transmission of power across the Straits are clear, that when we decide upon a tunnel we know that the tunnel is still the best route, and that there are no questions that perhaps the cable alternative is more attractive.

So that we need a very detailed review upon the latest technology that has been developed as it relates to cable, and the transmission of ~lectricity through cable. And that that kind of review will cost money and should be - this is one way that they can assit in Gull Island in the interim. That also there are still some problems as it relates to icing on transmission lines in the Great Northern Peninsula which are of real concern to Newfoundland Hydro yet, and that additional studies need 1.0914

June 7, 1977 Tape 3881 (Morning) PK - 3 Mr. Peckford: to be done on it. And thirdly~ that' the dam site at Gull Island needs additional work. And these were three areas that we could identify in a real way in which additional monies would be needed ixmnediately for ongoing studies in the interim. The whole problem with Labrador power, and specifically Gull Island power,is one of, as I see it~ not o.nly financing but perhaps more importantly the transmission of surplus power, surplus to our needs.If tomorrOW' everybody said,lGreen light for Gull Island,' what do we do with 800 megawatts that we do not need?

Th¢ obvious answer is one of two alt.ernatives; develop industry near the site to take the 800 megawatts, 10915

June 7 ~ 1977 Tape 3882 EC - 1 ~·.!R. PECKFORD: which is going to take some time to put into place;so it seems to me you are still going to need some export of the surplus power ~·! est and in order to have export of st.:rplus power ~ vest you need some corridor transmission line to do that. That means through Quebec in the short term. MR. NEARY: . MR. PECKFORD: What about the Anglo Saxon route? The Anglo Saxon route is still being talked about and the Maritime Energy Corporation that has been set up are supposed to be doing studies on that once it gets into operation.

The other question that came up on ~ay 18 concerned - EM and R said, ' Look .1we cannot do any more studies on the Anglo Saxon route or some of these questions that you are raising now until the ~~ritime Energy Corporation gets in operation because one of its mandates is to fully examine,and will have the funding to examine alternative energy sources or natural energy sources that are still available in the Atlantic region and when that gets set up that is the proper and right vehicle for this to be done.' In any case 9I welcome the statements by the han.

Hinister for External Affairs knowing that he is eager to see all these potential projects go ahead , but pointing out that in our meetings with El1 and R over the last month or so there are a lot of problems. There are no written proposals on the table. We are continuing to talk with them and hopefully some positive proposals can be worked out before the end of this year. :t-!R. STRACHAJ.'q: MR. SPEAKER: (Dr. Collins) MR. STRACHAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary by the original questioner.

The minister has indicated then that there is no comprehensive package as such written in any form between the provincial and federal government. Could the minister indicate whether, and I go to a further statement of Mr. Jamieson's, that the lack of this comprehensive package then,or the lack of this -v1ritten agreement or look at the situation is due to what he calls the strained relations between this Province and Ottawa, and I am referring to his statement _that there are 1..0916

June 7, 1977 Tape 3882 EC - 2 HR.. S TRACRAl'l': strained relations and therefore these strained relations are holding up the development of the hydro power in this Province? ~fR. PECKFORD : I do not know, I1r. Speaker, if the han. minister mentioned strained relations between Ottawa and St. John's,or St. John's and Quebec City - MR. HICKMAN: Or Ottawa and Quebec City. MR. PECKFORD: if he did between us and Ottawa I do not know where the strained relations are. You know, I have had very, very friendly, productive meetings with Hr. Jamieson, Hr.

Gillespie and other federal ministers and I do not know where the strained relations are. I attended meetings when the han. Premier was present and they were absolutely first class meetings, really and truly, and I do not understand what the strained relation business is.

Suffice it to say now that we are trying to work?and we were the ones who put this forward that the whole business of development of hydro power is one that must be taken into consideration all the factors in Labrador - Upper Churchill, Gull Island, Muskrat, Five Rivers, other rivers and there must be a whole - and that is what ~.;re are looking at, in that light, with various phases coming on at various times. So that is .well under way and the recent meetings indicate that approach is mutually agreeable by both sides. It is just how you put the various pieces of the puzzle in place,at what point in time.

Other initiatives are also underway by this administration as it relates to the Gull Island project which we will be indicating to the people of Newfoundland through the House,if it is open~in the next month or two, --- --- - --- -positive initiatives which have already been made_qy us that we cannot at this point in time release for obvious reasons. MR. STRACHAN: A final supplementary. ~R. SPEAKER: (Dr. Collins) One further supplementary by the original questioner. MR.. STRACHA.~ : Out of the minister's answers to the questions~ is he indicating then that because of new cable technology or because of - 10917

June 7, 1977 Tape 3882 EC - 3 MR.. STRACHA.~: in fact,I believe that a cable to PEI will be in place by July of this year - AN HON. MEMBER: Right. MR . STRACHAN: a cable from the mainland carrying power to PEI, to the Island, is the minister indicating then that the tunnel approach, the tunnel route which they went ahead with is not now or does not look as though it is now the best route and there are possibilities now to go ahead with a cable across the Straits of Belle Isle provided there could be given some protection from ice damage? MR. PECKFORD: Hr.

Speaker, when one gets into this kind of a situation as it relates to any kind of technology and if a given govern­ ment has made a decision in one dire~tion 1.0918

June 7, 1977 Tape 3883 (Morning) PK - 1 Hr. Peckford: but yet wants to study other alternatives so it still sure that it is making the right decision, it becomes sort of a black and white situation which is unfortunate. It suffices to say that from the information that we have at the present moment the tunnel crossing seems to be the still preferred route, However,we are not blind as to other technologies. The particular cable crossing from New Brunswick to ~EI has not led the Newfoundland Government or Newfoundland Hydro toward a re-examination of cable technology.

The cable technology as it relates to the cable crossing in New Brunswick and PEI has been known for many years and we are fully conversant with that knowledge. So to link the cable crossing from New Brunswick to PEI as the reason why we are now re-examining cable technology is an ove~simplification.It relates more to additional research and development that has been done on cable technology after the whole business of the technology being developed for that particular cable crossing from New Brunswick to PEI. It is in addition to that kind of technology that we are looking at.

It has no relationship whatsoever with the technology needed to develop that particular cable crossing.Rather it relates more to work that has been done in Japan and in Scandinavian· on cable crossings, and to up date our figures on what it would cost to ensure that an alternative that we did use in 1974 is still as viable in 1977-1978, and if not to change if need be. MR. SPEAKER (MR. J. COLLINS): The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speake~, I would like to ask the Minister of Transportation,now that the gentleman has returned from the battl~field do we have a 90-10 deal, a 75-25 deal or a 50-50 deal with the Government of Canada to upgrade and to reconstruct and widen the Trans-Canada Highway? MR. SPEAKER (MR. J. COLLINS): The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. 1.0919

June 7, 1977 Tape 3883 (Homing) PK- 2 MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the hon. gentleman is referring to"returning from the battlefield. ii I have returned from Labrador~ I spent four days down there. It is far from a battlefield, it is a beautiful country,in fact. Hr. Speaker, last week we did convene a meeting in Halifax of all of the ministers responsible for Highways and Transportation. And following that meeting the officials of all departments in the region travelled to Ottawa and met with the officials of the Highways and Service Division of the Ministry of Tran~port.

The discussions revolved around a draft agreement which is now being put forward by the Federal Ministry of Transport for the Atlantic Provinces individually to sign. There are a number of points which could not be resolved at the official level at that .. ----"' meeting. Therefore tomorrow a meeting is now convened in New Brunswick of all of the ministers responsible for Transportation and Highways, and following that a meeting with Mr. Lang in Ottawa to trash out the details of an agreement which could not be trashed out -- - ~ - -- - - or negotiated at the official level. The provinces remain adamant.

Now, as it was at the time of the initial submission, we are requesting a 90-10 cost sharing arrang~ent, and of course if Ottawa does not agree to this we will have to discuss it and negotiate at the ministerial level. MR. NEARY: · A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (DR. J. COLLINS): A supplementary. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman is going to be the best travelled man in Newfoundland I can see that before these negotiations are over. But is there any indication that Ottawa is opposed to a 90-10 deal?

Are the Atlantic Provinces unanimous in their attitude towards the whole affair, unanimous in as much as they want a 90-10 deal? And has Ottawa refused the 90-10 deal? Do I get this impression from the minister? ~m. SPEAKER (DR. J. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. 1.0920

June 7, 1977 Tape 3883 (Morning) PK- 3 MR. J. MORGAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, that was not - if I left an impression it was a wrong impression. What I said was that a number of matters pertaining to the potential agreement which is now being drafted up by Ottawa to be signed with the provinces could not be resolved at the official level. MR. NEARY: Is this one of them? MR. MORGAN: And one of the points automatically would be the cost sharing. The cost sharing formula could not be established by the officials, and therefore the ministers will now have to meet and discuss the matter with the Ministry of Transport.

And with regards to my travel. I cannot think of a more appropriate man with the problems that we have in this Province today with regards to travelling on behalf of the Department of Transportation and Communications. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (DR. J. COLLINS): A further supplementary. MR. NEARY: Could the bon. gentleman then tell us about his travels on the Freedom Road during the weekend? The bon. minister almost got isolated down there. Could the minister tell us what is going to happen to that road, if that road is going to be open this Summer? MR. SPEAKER (DR. J.

COLLINS):. The bon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker with regards to my travels I can assure the hon. House that 1.0921

June 7, 1977 Tape no. 3884 Pag e 1 - ms ~ :. r. ~, rorgan. many of the travels are far from comfortable. For ex&~ple, this past couple of cays, my colleague, the member for Naskaupi (:!r. Goudie) and myself travelled 460 miles over rough road in Labrador ':·7here there are no conveniences or restaurants or service stations. :HR. NEARY: ~ffi. ~fORGAN : lfua t did you do, take to the ~voods? t~e travelled from Goose Bay as far as we could over the road towards Esker, tmvards Churchill Falls. Because of a number of ~vash-outs, 'lle could not travel all the v;ay by vehicle.

Ve had to get a helicopter lift over the ':vasa-outs, but these were only of short distance and we travelled all the way from there and belcw Churchill Falls, all the v.ray up to Esker and returned to Churchill Falls. I must say, Mr. Speaker, that is a ~eautiful country, that wild country of Labrador, the wilderness area. I can realize now after being do-w-n there why the people in \vabush and Labrador City and Churchill -Falls refer --to-it - as-- the Freedom-Road. It is a road that,although rough~is a tote road,but _there is a possibility of keeping it open. That is recognized.

The taxpayers are going to have to spend some momey there. That is obvious as '1-vell. So first of all a decision in keeping the road open has not been made. We, for example, met with the Churchill Falls(Labrador)Corporation and discussed the matter •vith them, the president and the senior staff; _ we" uet with the senior staff of the Iron Ore Company in Wabush yesterday and also with the Quebec iilorth Shore and Labrador Railway.

And, of course, now looking at what is happening, the unfortunate incident recently regarding the ferry service"from the Island part of the Province to Labrado~, we have to be discussing this matter nmv 1vith C)1 to determine from them if they can find a re-placement for that ferry service the Hilliam Carson. 1.0922

June 7, 1977 Tape no. 3884 Page 2 - ms ~~. :fORGA:l . So there are a number of links· For example, the raihmy service from Habush into Esker. There are no facilities there. There are no accommodations fer people travelling on a car ferry. And when >ve get to Goose there is now no link to the Island part of the Province. So keeping the road open depends on these two major factors. But there is a possibility, from looking at the conditions of the road · ~ there is a possibility of having contractors !nove in and fill the gaps ~..rhich have been -:;vashed out and keeping the road open. That is possible.

But, of course, the decision to do that depends on these t':-70 other links, nm:1ber one, establishin[; a car ferry from ~labush, Labrador City into Esl"er and there is presently need for facilities to be established there and, number t•.;o, the replacement for the \.Villiam Carson . ~ supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A f:!nal supplementary, Sir. :IP.. SPEA:~.?. (Dr. Colliu.s) : One furt{ler su?plenentary by t:-te original questioner, followed by the han. member for Eagle River. YI'.. ::lEARY: :-!r.

Speaker, the han. gentleman raised this matter in his an~ver in connection with the disaster of the \-lilliam Carson. The !!linister was no-t in the House yesterday when T.ve talked about ~.vho is liabel, ,.,ho is responsible for the loss of supplies on t:-1e \V'illiam Carson. Has the minister delved into this? Has c:J yet accepted their responsibility to replace the supplies? And how T·Till they be transported to Goose Bay ·- Happy Valley where we hear that a number of businesses ~vill go bankrupt if they do not have these supplies replaced and brought in at a reasonable freight rate? ~-~. SPEAEK.~ (Dr.

Collins): ~~. ~ · fORGAN: Well, ~r. S~eaker, as I mentioned some of the meetings ~ve did hold in Labrador. I also met ~.;rith the Chamber of Commerce in tLe Happy Valley - Goose Bay area over the Heekend and discussed ~..rith them a very serious problem tvith regards to the goods that ~v-ere being shipped dov.-rn by means of freight on the HilliaL!l Carson. 1.0923

June 7, 1977 Tape no. 3884 Page 3 - ns ?fr. Horgan . It is now to a ::>oint Hhere a number of these business people find the~selves on the brink of bankruptcy unless they can get their claims honoured by the C ·lR. r.!e have made !:'epresentations - ~.;hen I say, '"'e, the Department of Transportation - to c~m along the lines of having a decision made as soon as possible on the matter of claims put forward by,· i_E. ~his case, t}1e business people in Labrador. because the goods were shipped from St. John's to Labrador, FOB Goose, ~vhich means that the shippers - XR.

STRACHk.'!: ~lR • MORGAN : answering the question. Some of it. Most of it was FOB St. John's. Yes. Nr. Speaker, if I could finish Some of the goods '"ere shipped dmm, FOB Goose, which means that the shippers in St. John's or the business people or suppliers are responsible; but only a small portion was shipped FOB Goose,which means that it was shipped FOB St. John's,which means then that the people on the other end, the businessman down in Happy Valley or an~Nhere in Labrador, is responsible- or the carrier is responsible, in this case the carrier being C~.

From our discussions with CN it will now determine ~vhether or not eN places the incident in the category of

an act of God. If it is

an act of God, 1JJ924

June 7, 1977 Tare No. 38S5 NM- 1 under the bills of lading ,used in shipning these goods the claims •vould not be honored. So \vhat He have said as a Province to the CNR is 1·7e are hoping to have a decision made as soon as uossible so that the people in Labrador can then determine ~vha t s teu to te~. ke from there. They have •v-ired the Federal ~inister of Transport, and MI. Bandine, the President of CNR,asking for the same as we have, asking for a decision to be made as soon as possible. MR..

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River, followed by the han. members for Fogo and Stephenville. '.-fP .• STRACHAN: A supulementary to the que~tion of the minister and his reply 9 Returning from Freedom Poad Labrador almost reminded you of some one returning from the colonies or the jungles or the tea plantations, Could the minister tell us, number one, hm·7 much money is going to go in, actual money - never mind the talk and so on- hm.r much money is ~oing to go into the Freedom Road this year in the way of repairs, ~ctual cost that is going .to go in?

And number two, on the same basis, because we are talking the same ouestion, could he give us the reasons why the Ambrose Shea could not be ?Ut on to the Labrador run or a similar ferry system on the Labrador run? I realize full well that it is a problem requfrinr, service across the Gulf,hut we are at the beginning of the ye~r in which people desperately need these supplies and laree freightors to pull in these supplies ~nd the Carson las the only economical and good thing that CN did in Labrador . . in the last ten years.

So l-rhy can <:ve not continue that kind of thine ani! bring in the Ambrose Shea to do that run even at the inconvenience on the Straits. ~. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Transportation and Communiciations. ~KR. MORGAN: Mr. Sneaker, in reulying to the first Part of the question, vrith regards .. to how much money will be spent on the Freedo"[Tl. Road, on the road to Esker, known as the Freedom Roe_d in Labrador, that decision is not heing made because we have not made a decision as of right now whether or not He are going to spend any r.1.0ney on that

June 7, 1977 Tape No. 3885 NH - Z ~fR • '10RGA.~ : road to keep it open. 'Fe will be making a decision in the next number of days~ As I mentioned in answer to an earlier question -; it depends on the t\·10 links I mentioned earlier, the link from the east end, Goose to the Island~and Esker into ~ ~abush in the \-Jest ern -part of Labrador. On the second part of the question with regards to the CNR putting on the Ambrose Shea, .

I think there ~-1as a stat~~ent made by one of the officials of CNR indicating this 'tvas a possibility. ~.Je have not asked him to do that. \That we have asked him to do is to find a replacement as soon as possible. But I \·JOuld not WC!.nt to see the services removed on one part of our Province to reulace the services in another uart of our Province. I think that is unfair. But I am hoping nm-1 that the CN 't·:rill find a renalcement as soon as possible. I understand they found a replacement with regards to moving in freight.

There is a boat leaving in the next couple of days to take in freight, but of course that ia not what the people of Labrador are eX?ecting. I must admit that it was unforturate because the William Carson was one of the more positive,bright things that have occurred from CNR in this Province for the past number of years and it was very successful, it was beyond expectations in fact. So I am hoping that CNR 'tvill find a replacement as soon as possible. With regards to taking the Ambrose Shea off the existing service in the Gulf, or into Argentia I cannot comment on removing one of these boats at this time. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. CAPTAIN WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, a question to the hon. Minister of Fisheries. In the light of the announcement made by the Salt Fish Corporation that they would he unable to pay within four to five cents ~er pound for fish smaller than twenty-four inches, has the minister taken any action to arrange for some sort of subsidy to make up the loss? 1..0926

June 7, 1r;.77 Tape ~1o. 3885 NM- 3 'f~. . W. CARTER: ~o, Hr. Speaker. I have not given much thought to the ?rovision of a subsidy. It would be rather strange I think for the Ne~~oundland Government to end up subsidizin~ the Canadian Salt Fish Corooration,of course~which is an arm of the great federal government. t have talked to members of the Salt Fish Tra.des Association, They ~vired Ottawa last week requesting some action, maybe a subsidy.

I wired Ottawa as well suuporting their request and I have also uassed a similar telegram off to the Salt Fish Corooration. :3ut certainly I think it ~·Tould be unreasonable to exuect the Province to nrovide a subsidy to the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation. }~ .• SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Fogo. CAPTAIN WINSOR: In light of the minister's answer, Mr. Speaker, iS thiS nOt the fish that the miniSter m;=~ciP. ~nTT1P :~nnnnn~ama!'f: about some time ago?

You lena~, the small fish that you are going to endeavour to try to have used instead of the f~shermen having to throw it away, . and this is what they are doingwith _. it now. Of course,if this price is stable now at four cents less than last year, there is going to be an awful lot more cf it thrown away this year. But was that not the fish that the minister referred to in his statement some time ago? MR. r,;,. CARTER: ~~r. Stteaker, I did announce that lve were assist in~ t~~ comaonies in the purchase of a 1.0927

June 7, 1977 Tape 3886 PK- 1 Mr. W. Carter: machine that could fillet fish down to as low as twelve inches. I said then that would more than likely alleviate the problem~certainly to some extent, and would probably prevent the dumping of small fish. I presume these machines will be used by the companies, and that the small fish will be used for blocks. The machines will be used to fillet fish, and not to split fish. CAPT. E. -WINSOR: A further supplementary. I1R. SPEAKER (DR. J. COLLINS): A further supplementary,the original questioner. CAPT. E.

WINSOR: In the light of what is happening now,of course, I am sure the minister could not predict that this tragic situation would arise, but now we do have a situation where those fishermen who are selling their fish to the Salt Fish Corporation, you know, if they cannot get some price range equal to what they had last year~I am afraid a great number of them, because an awful lot of the fish they are catching are small fish, and is there not some way that this fish can be utilized, you know, whether it is fresh fish - if they could get it to a f~esh fish processing plant there would be no problem because, of course, the small fish does not make any difference when it is processed in blocks, but it is difficult to salt it.

Is there not any way, you know, that can be arrived at at least to pay something to the fishermen who have to throw those fish away? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hen. Minister of Fisheries. MR.. '-1 • CARTER: Mr. Speaker, certainly we will assist in every way possible to enable fishermen to get that fish to a processing plant where it can be properly utilized. But I will repeat what I said initially,that certainly the Province should not be expect to provide a subsidy to the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation.

I submit that if in fact the Salt Fish Corporation now find themselves in an non competitive position with the fresh fish industry,well then I would suggest that it is incumbent on Ottawa or that Board to provide the necessary subsidy, certainly not the Province. But I repeat~anything we can do we will with respect to preventing the dumping of small fish. We have 1J}928

June 7, 1977 Tape 3886 PK - 2 Mr. W. Carter: already assisted in the purchase of machines to that end, and anything else we can do we will. MR. SPEAKER: (DR. COLLINS):· The hon. member for Stephenville, followed by the hon. member for LaPoile. CAPT. E. WINSOR: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Other membe~s have indicated their wish to ask a question and I feel that I should move to the next member I have i~dicated, the hon. member for Stephenville. MR. W. MCNEIL: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Finance.

Could the minister indicate when the Woods Report of the Advisory Board of Labrador Linerboard will be tabled in this House? MR. SPEAKER: (DR. COLLINS) The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. W. DOODY: No,I cannot indicate that, Your Honour, because I do not know when it will be available, you know, hopefully it will be very soon. When it is received it will be studied and hopefully as soon after that is possible it will be tabled,but I cannot give a date because I do not really know. MR. MCNEIL: {iave you received a copy? MR. DOODY: I have not • No. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Industrial Relations, Sir, and Rural Development. As the padlock is about to be out on Ralland Fore~t Products down in Milltown, will the minister indicate to the House what action his ·department or the government have taken to avert this closing down of Ralland Forest Products in Milltown. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Industrial Relations and Rural Development. MR. J. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, there is one action that is not going to be taken and that is to place any more funds behind the company.

Last year the government did stand firmly behind the company because we did recognize the critical unemployment problem 10S29

June 7, 1977 Tape 3886 PK - 3 Hr. J. Lundrigan: in that part of our Province. And as the member is aware from the estimates we put $375,000 in preference shares into the comp?ny,much of which, of course, was used to amortize or pay off debts such as back taxes and the like. In any event, Mr.

Speaker, the problem basically as it has been indicated to us is a supply of timber problem. _ I would not like to indicate any more to the House than that at the moment because the company people are coming in this afternoon, I am meeting with them at three o'clock. 1·1e have had problems with all of aur large mills since day one; none of themp not one of them is in any kind of a position to be able to fly on their own. We have put as much money behind them as we can.

The problem in Bay d'Espoir is complicated by virtue of the fact that they are not able to sell a lot of their pulp and consequently they are paying for the cost of cutti~g a lot of these small trees which are not economic. We have just assisted the company in putting in a twin 1.0930

June 7,1977 Tape 3887-Horning AH-1 HR.. LU}.TDRIGk'if: sa•v,which is not yet in place,but they 'tvill have it in place to more efficiently take advantage of L~e small timber in the region. I understand negotiation has taken place ~-!i th Bmvaters to try to make available some timber limits in. the region that can continue to give the mill the supply of timher they are looking for. They are operating on ~vo shifts. I do not believe that the padlock 'tvill be put on the company door, I hope it w·ill not.

This past winter they have cut somethin~ like 6000 cords of timber, of •·10od, of sa,vlogs, about three million board feet, about one half million dollars 'tvorth of sawlogs. That timber is still in the woods and even 'tvith that available timber,•..rhich naturally has to be sa"tVn,there is several months work left at the mill. But there ·±s a concern over the available timber supply. I certainly would rather, because it is not in my direct bailiwickito ~ave the Minister of Forestry give an indication of where that matter lies.

I would sav that tomorrow would he a more opnortune moment to be able to give a better response to the member. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Motion 4. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Hunicipal Affairs and Housing to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Housing Act.'; (Bill ~To. 51), carried. On Motion,Bill No. 51, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 5. Motion, the hon. the ~·Unister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Gasoline Tax Act" (Bill Ko. 80), carried, On Motion Bill.

No. 80, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. 1..0931

June 7,1977 MR. SPFA__T<ER: Of Hines Act." Tape 3887 -Morning AH-2 ~ration 8. Hotion, the hon.the Minister of Mines and Energy to introduce a bill, nAn Act To Amend The Regulations (Bill No. 90), carried. On Notion~Bill No. 90, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 9. }fotion, the han. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Utilities Act. 11 (Bill No. 92), carried. On Motion Bill No. 92, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently hy leave. MR.

SPEAKER: Hotion 10. ~otion, the hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Judicature Act." (Bill ~~o. 83), carried. · On Motion Bill No. 83, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 11. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Creation Of A Unified FAmily Court." (Bill No. 94), carried. On Hotion Bill. No. 94, read a first time, ordered read a second time tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: Hotion 12. Motion, the hon. the Hinister of Consumer Affairs and Environment to introduce a hill.

"An Act To .Amend The Automobile Insurance Act." (Bill '-To. 87), carried. 10932

June 7,1977 Tape 3887 - ~ forning AH-3 ""ffi. SPEAKER: On ~~otion Eill No. 87, read a first time, ordered read a second time ~resently by leave. 10933

June 7, 1977 Tape 3888 EC - 1 ~-1otion 13. Hotion, the hon. the Hinister of Consumer Affairs and Environment to introduce a bill, "An Act To Facilitate Netric Conversion," (Bill ~o. 89), carried. On motion, Bill No. 89, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. HR. HICK11AN: ~·!otion 14. Hotion, the hon. the Ninister of Tourism to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Historic Objects, Sites and Records Act, 1973," (Bill No. 85), carried. On motion, Bill ~o. 85, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. ~-!R.

HICKlTP~: Hotion 15. !·lotion, the han. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Livestock (Community Sales) Act," (Bill No. 88), carried. On Motion, Bill No. 88, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. MR. HICJ.a.fAN: Motion 16. !1otion, the hon. the Minister of social Services to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Social Services Act, 1973," (Bill No. 86), carried. On motion, Bill No. 86, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. rlR. HIC~ffu~: :action 17.

Notion, the hon. the !·!inister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The l'lembe·rs Of The House Of Assembly (Retiring Allowances) Act," (Bill No. 82), carried. On motion, Bill No. 82, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. Order 3 - Committee of the Whole. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Hhole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. 1.0934

June 7 , 1 97 7 :.ICR2-!AJ.~ : i·n::!.. CH..A..IR1!J>_ : ffi.. HI CIC·.!A!.'I : Tape 3888 EC - 2 COHMITTEE OF THE HHOLE: Bill 34. Order, please! I believe we reached and passed up to and including

Section 37 of the Act when the committee adjourned. We had stood to one side an amendment which had been moved to strike out -we had passed

Section 9(1) and (2) but Sub-Section (3) of

Section 9, there is a ~tion before the Chair ~.rhich '~as stood to one side to delete it. I undertook to try and get some information for the cotnmittee with respect to that provision. The hon. member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Hr. Rideout) had raised the question of the situation where you might have a person employed on longshore who would be working 10935

June 7, 1977 Tape no. 3889 Page 1 - ss ~·:r.

"3.ickrnan. for 0:1.e da:' or tr.;o days ~7 ith one employer and t~en t~·70 or three days \vith another enployer, and he '.;ould :wt be able to com':)lv uith the five consecutive r.mrk days or more. ~· fy understanding is that :vith respect to longshore tl::iat is not a ?roblem, because even though there are many employers,in one sense of the ~·mrd, the longshoremen 1 s union negotiates ~vith an employer, w·ithin the meaning of the act,representing all groups so that if you work ':vith Clarke Steamships for t~vo days, Furness ~·7ithy for t1:10 days ~..nd 'Rarveys for t':·JO days you still have fi~e consecutive or si:~ consecutive days.

To stri!<:e that out, Hr. Chairman, one ~vould reach a very impractical and almost, you know, unlegislatable situation. It would mean that every ti!:'!e you \vanted your fence painted, and it \vas a day's ":vork, you <vould have to set up a vacation sum. Nm.; you might say that that is not too difficult. 3ut obviously it r.;ould leave itself SO Hide open to abuse that there ~10uld sir!!ply be a reduction i:1 the c'.ay's uav ~:R. !=''"OUSSEAU: Xot only one day, one hour. Or one hour even.

You knmv, it would just be absolutely im';)ossible to enforce, and there is nothing \vorse than unenforceable legislation. 2ut as far as longshoremen are concerned, you know - and this act really is designed to protect the unprotected - but as far as longshoremen are concerned the collective agreement covers that- ~!R. RO'L'SSEATJ: A fevr \vords on that. He have checked it out lvith our mm people.

Apparently ':Jhen "The Vacations With Pay Act" came in in the 1960 1 s, this provision 1vas not in it, and the people r.vho have to administer this in the Labour Standards Division just found that it was unworkable, because not only one day but one hour if it is left out. So they then asked, and the House approved, an amendment for seven consecutive days ~.;rhich ,.,.as in the old Vacations l.Jith Pay Act. And no~;.; they :1ave brought that seven days dmm to five days~ I am told by the people ':·rho enforce this, the Labour Standards people, that it 'vould be impossible to police and enforce a situation 10936

June 7, 1977 Tape no. 3889 Page 2 - '11S ::fr. Rousseau. if t~ere were not some days or so~e qualifying ~eriod in there. Otherc.;ise, as I say, it 1.-rould not be the one day~ it would actually ba one hour. If somebody worked for one hour t"hey ~.rould have to have vacation pay for it. It is just an unwieldy and an um.rorkable situation insofar as the people who enforce it are concerned. It covers the question of five consecutive work days. "inis was the point that >vas brought up and that certainly is the case.

It is ':Jork for two days, and no '-JOrk then for t~.ro or three days, and three more days ~•ork, and that is consecutive days~ Consecutive days of l;vo:-k have been interpreted by both the departnent and the drafters do~vn in Justice to mean just that. ~~IR. CHAIRHAl'I: HR. RIDEOUT: The han. mamber for Baie Verte - vmite Bay. ~1r. Chairman, since I ~vas going to propose the motion to delete Clause 9 (3), I suppose I should say something about it.

I have discussed this \vith the :'!inister of Justice, the Govern~ent House Leader~yesterday and I have to say that I can certainly understand the dilemma that having no qualification period at all would leave the enforcing of this legislation in. I think we have made the point that we were concerned about, and all the legal

interpretations that we can be given shows that the point that we are concerned about will be taken into consideration because of the five consecutive <.vork days. That ~vas our main point. I think that has been cleared up. I have consulted with my colleague, the member for Lewisporte G'Ir. \.fni te) who seconded the amendment and we are prepared to withdraw the amendment at this time. ~'ffi.. CH..U'Rl'L.~'l' : amendment? ~· fR. HI C.KHAN : :-IR. LUSH: Does the hon. member have leave to ~vithdrm.; the Agreed. On motion Clause 9 carried. On motion Clause 38 through to Clause 53 carried. Shall Clause 54 carry? ~·1r. Chairman, I 1.0937

June 7, 1977 Tane No. 3890 :fR. LUSE: was not able to get my book opened fast enough ~nd I did want to ~ake a comment on 50 if I could. If we could revert back to that if I could be permitted? ~~. CHAIRHAN: AgreeC.? Agreed. ~ ffi.. LUSH: Yes,

section 50, "Hhen notice by emnloyee is 1'~- 1 not necessary,"

section (a), I mentioned that in my general comment!'l about the bill. Point (

a) is the part that I find objectionable and I unfortunately do not have any suggestions hot-1 that can be changed and l!laybe the minister can explain it further but it says here that the employer, that "Hritten notice is not necessary," right, ·~en the employer has mistreated the e~ployee or acted in the manner that has or might endanger the health or well being of the employee or has otherwise been in breach of the material condition of the contract of service that in the opinion of the tribunal hearing a complaint made under this part warrants no notice being given." r·That this does 'in effect, ~fr.

Chairman, is that it makes legal almost a fact of life; in other words an employer can mistreat an emnloyee and in that circumstance no ~rritten notice is given. t.!hat it means is that if an er.10loyer wanted for some reason to get rid of an employee~all he has ~o do is mistreat that 1;1erson and then make life hard for him. As I have said, it is a fact of life, You know., there is not much you can do to change that. But what we have done here~i~ seems as though is made that circumstance legal. An employer can void a contract really by mistreating the employee and for his o~vn benefits.

An employer can do this for his own benefits~and as I have sEid before even though it is a fact of life and I ~~ not sure that any type of legislation that can chan~e that}hut what we have done here it looks like is certainly make that kind of a situation legal. ~!R. P..OUSSEAU: I can sym,athize with the noint raised by the hon. member. He had a discussion and I had my peonle talk to him. Hhat it really is, is that if an employee is mistreated in any ~o1ay he can resign from his _iob. However, as the hon. member for Tenra Nova 1.0938 /

June 7, 1977 Tare No. 3890 \'M- 2 :rR. ROUSSE.~t!: (Mr. Lush) mentions~that there is nothing to stop an employer from harrassing or mistreating an employee whom he ~~nts to get rid of. However, I can assure the han. me~ber that while there may not be any legislation it is certainly a ~atter that, because it comes under

section 50, subsection 1 (

a) of the Labour Standards Act~that it would be checked out by Labour Standards people. I 'tvould also think that the ·person ~-muld have the ability to have the Human Rights Commission look into it as well. So it is not to say that there is not anything available although like.,as the member says, from a legislative point of vieH it is very difficult. But it ~~uld certainly be checked out by Labour Standards people to determine, and an investigation carried out to determine if that indeed was the case,or refer it to the Human Rights Commission. }~R.

CHAIRl-!AN: ~- • RIDEOUT: On motion clauses 50 through 51, carried. The han. member for Baie Verte - ~vhi te Bay. Mr. Chairman,~ wonder if the minister could say if this Director of Labour Standards will be a new position? ~. ~OUSSEAU: No. The Director of Labour Standards will now be Director of Labour Standards. He is out there somewhere and he is probably just hearing that, but,no,it will just be the same as the Minimum Hage BoErd, just change over the position so the director of that division will remain director of the division and the officers of the division will remain the officers of the division. I-~.

RIDEOUT: Thank you. On motion clauses 58 through 66, carried. MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman, 67, this is again appeal from the Tribunal, the idea of the tribunal is certainly a good one and I think outs labour disputes where they belong~with a 1..0939

June 7, 1977, Tape 3891, Page 1 -- apb MR. LUSH: tribunal of people that are familiar with labour. But this here, this system of appeal, I am wondering why it was this way. For example~ why could not the appeal be through the same channel as an appeal of arbitration decision? This would have kept it out of the realm of the courts. But now this puts it back again into the realm of the courts. We had an opportunity here,it seems to me,to keep thi~ away from the tourts and I am just wondering why the appeal could not have gone through the normal process of arbitration decision rather than going back to the courts?

MR. ROUSSEAU: First of all, Mr. Chairman, while I am on my feet I would like to say one thing for the news media because this is the Labour Standards legislation not the Labour Relations legislation. The other day there was an editorial, I think, that confused the two to some extent. This is the Labour Standards legislation not the new Labour Relations Act. Actually, Mr.

Chairman, we felt, as a matter of policy, that a person has the ability to, if he is not satisfied with a tribunal or a board or a group, whatever," that is set up by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council it should not be the final court of appeal - I use court in the generic sense - and that if somebody is dissatisfied with the decision of a lay body, really, although it is a tribunal it is a lay body, that they sh~ld have recourse to the courts of the land. We do not anticipate that t hi s wo u 1 d happen very often.

A-s a matter of fact , \'1 e anticipate that most of the problems enountered with violations of this Act , actually will be handled by our own people in the Department of Labour and Manpower, the Labour Standards people. 1J)940

June 7, 1977, Tape 3891, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROUSSEAU: Some will, of course, end up at the Labour Tribunal, and some of the ones that end up at the Labour Tribunal will end up at the district court. It was just as a matter of policy that government felt that a person should have the ability of recourse to the courts of the land in the event that he is not satisfied. As the han. member mentioned, maybe somebody will not be convinced that it is an independent board. MR. HICKMAN: Not on questions of fact, only on questions of law. MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes.

So the person has the ability to appeal to the courts to ensure that the .- problems raised previously by the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) would not enter, or any ruling that was given, there would be no doubt in the mind of the person who had the ruling that it was an honest and clear ruling, and if he still so desired he could have that ruling made by the court. On motion, clause 67, carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Clause 68. The han. the member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: What are you on, 68? MR. CHAIRMAN: 68(1). MR. STRACHAN: Okay, carry on. MR. CHAIRMAN: Proceed. MR.

STRACHAN: 68(2) and 71 will go hand in hand~ I believe. The only point I want to raise here is that 68(2)(

a) if a person is a natural person then he is liable to a fine of not less than $100 and not more than $500 and in default of payment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months, which is fine enough, simple and straightforward. 1094~

June 6, 1977, Tape 3891, Page 3 -- apb MR.

STRACHAN: But (b), "If the person is a corporation,to a fine not less than $200 and not more than $1,000." Then rif we look at 71, we have an ex p 1 an a t i o n o f t h e d i r e c tors o f cor p o r at i o n s ; " t~ h e r e a corporation has committed an offence under this Act, every director, officer or agent of the corporation is guilty of the offence." A point t_~at I have always thought wrong in this kind of an arrangement is that if the person is a person, a natural person,not a corporation as such, then there is a fine or in default of the fine there is a prison sentence.

But if a person is a corporation then what happens in many cases is that the corporation are fined but they often will take many weeks and months and quite a long period of time to pay that fine. They do not have hanging over them the fact that the directors of that corporation can go to prison as an alternative for not paying the fine. I have often felt that in cases like this that a single individual as such will get fined,or if he does not pay the fine goes to jail. In the case _of a corporation all he gets is the fine and there is no alternative of jailing the person or -putting him in prison.

I often feel that this is wrong, that there should be alternatives there so that directors of corporations,should they not pay that fine, then in this case here, the same as an ordinary person, they should be faced with a prison sentence. MR. ROUSSEAU: I shall defer to my colleague there, but if I may, my reading of it here, I read~if the hon. member will look at

section 71. MR. STRACHAN: Yes. 1..0942

June 7,1977 Tape 3892 - :laming AH-1 HR. ROUSSEAL': the last couple of lines ther~ "the commission of the offence is guilty of an offence and liable on

summary conviction to the fine provided for a natural person under"- HR. STRACJ-TAY: Only to the fine for the natural person. In ot~er Hords.,the alternative - if you are a single person, an individual,you have the fine and if you do not pay the fine you go to prison. As a corporation,you pay the fine,but if you do not pav the fine you do not go to prison and you canhaggle over the fine for a long, long - - time,and directors of corporations do not go to prison. And it seems to be two different rules, t~vo different lavJS. HR. ROUSSEAU: I do not knmv that. I defer to my collea~ue there.

I would think the unions are in the same position,~vhere a union member but not the executive. "1:-ffi. HICIG1AN: You cannot extend it to the corporation unless you extend to the union as well. lfR. STR~CHA.i.~: Oh~yes. I hcve no hesitation there Hhatsoever. There is - HR. STRACHAN: As a selective body you seem to be excused. There is a double standard there, a little bit of a double standard. HR. HICI{}f.AN: Not so much of a double standard as · I think partially is the question of proof, If you go the next step you are imposing vicarious liability on a director of a corporation for

an act over ~vhich he prohably has absolutelv no control or no l<nmvledge.

Whereas the natural person obviously makes a deliberate act, it is a deliberate act on his part to commit an offence. ~. STRAC~T: But surely responsibility in a corporation should rest with its president or general manager. XR. HICIQ1A1\I : There is no question about civil liability at afl ~vith a corporation. The question is do you take as a next step and say that a person is criminally liable for

an act that ~vas not cormnitted by him knm·rin?.ly or unkno,,Jingl~·. ~1R. STRACIW'T: Let us get of the corporations then and onto the noint of unions. Surelv 1 and this is something that the minister Has 10943

June 7,1977 Tape 3892 - :l>Iorning AE-2 alluding to the other da•r T,hen T.ve Here on nrivate - ~ ... talks about it, but surely if theEe is

an act conmitted by a union me~ber then the union as such, the same as a board of rlirectors or nresident of a corporation or something, - Civill y liable. HR. STRACH..\.'1: Yes. but should it not be under these kind of la~;s also liable because they are responsible? I mean the thing that I often get is that there is a responsibility, a tremendous responsibility placed on an individual,but if he belongs to some collective organization he looses that responsibility and that responsibility is wate~ed d~Nn.

And ~..;rhat ~Je are talking ahout here is that the union should he responsible fnr the actions of their members and corporation directors should be resnonsible for the actions of the members in theirhire or.employ or whatever has happened. And this is the point I am trying to get at here, is that as a single person, many small businesses, many small people, small individuals and so on are punished in HaYs ~vhich are not applicable to corporations or to unions,for that matter if you want to balance it out. r·TR. ROUSSEAU: That point is __ well __ taken.

I will _ certainly look intr it further because ~·7e do not ~.;ant to have it isolated in one act. I mean there are certain, there are a number of acts with that same type of situation in it, be it the union and its membership, the union as a legalentity in its membership, _and other areas too which cover many acts in the House. It is certainly a good point. It is a doul:lle standard ~ it appears to be. What v1ay around it I do not ~now,but I will certainly take it under consideration and I am sure the ~inister of Justice will do so. ~'R . STRACHAN: It could possibly be.

I have just used it in this case here because it is in this bill here,but it is something, a point that I thought is valid in many, many instances where that responsibility lies. I feel that someho..;.1 or other there has to be responsibility for the actions of people in your employ or people in a union and so on, the responsibility has to lie somev1here 10944

June 7,1977 Tape 3892 - H'orning J-l-3 ?fR. STRACHA.' l : so that people have to obey a certain orocedure or unde rstand a nroc edure or take liability for it. ~~ ot onlv in t:tis bill here but I think in generally too that if ou set the precedent here then tve would robably be arguing it in many other cases because there are many other cases ,.,here liability should lie and should rest on t he hoa r d of ~!re ctors, or on ~ha union executive or 1-1hatever it is. MR .

ROUSSEAU: As a personal opinion L have much sympathy for >vhat the member says be cause it says where a corporation has committed every director or officer of the corooration is guilty of an offence.So it is certainly a oint that is well taken but I cannot make an undertaking here because of the comnlexit of t _e problem in respect to other bill s and acts. But it is a ?Oint well taken and a point trith Jhich I have much s ympathy. On motion clauses 68 through 72, ca,rried. 1..0945

June 7, 1977 Tape ~o. 3893 N~- 1 ~~. HI~f.AN: An amendment to (73), ~fr. Chairman. I am afraiO. I am going to have to real it all, most of it is there already but it c~anges t~e numbers. The follo~~ng be added to subsection (1) as paragraph (d) - (

d) has been dismissed by a former employer;and then (b)the following added as

section 2, every person is guilty of an offence who seeks to have an employer dismiss an employee because that employee has previously been dismissed by that person. And that means that the sulsections all have to be renumbered and deleted so that in addition to the penalty set out in subsection (3) tle court may order that exemplary damages be paid to an emoloyee by any person found guilty of an offence under subsection (2). The Clerk has the amendment. I move that amendment. On motion clause 72, as amended, carried. ~1R. S TR.l\CHA.N: The same case applies in 73, (2) as I was arguing previously.

A person who is guilty of an offence, in r~spect of each employee to Which the offence relates is a fine of SlOO and a maximum of $1,000, plus a prison sentence of not exceeding three months.and then a case is different for corporations~or unions for that matter, or collective bodies. A collective body, you are only liable for a fine of S300 and a maximum of S3,000 for each person who has committed that offence. And again I bring up the same thing of this alternative being applied in one case of a prison sentence but not being applied in another case. MR.

ROUSSEAU: By the way~this is a Labour Standards Act which is really put in there for people who are \vorking ~vho are not unionized. Now the unionized people are normally people in larger companies and many of the people who are served by this act are small businesses in ~-rl'J.ich there is a one owner or ~aybe a two owner and not a corporation and that is v1hat the intent of this act is, So the majority of people served -- ------ ;;y this act I Hould think are not employed by corporations but rather by individual small grocery stores, restaurants or hotels in small areas and so on.

There would be some of course that would be involved with corporations, but for t~e most part they may not indeed be involved with corporations but rather Hith individuals vJho ovm the 1 {JQ4" . - 0

June 7, 1977 !'l'R. ROUSSEAU: 'fP..

STR.A.CHAN: Tape No. 3303 I'T'1 - 2 business because of the nature of the - To that point I accept to a certain extent the point by the '-linister of 'farmoHer but it surely is a fact that more and more small husinesses 1 for their Owll protection, are becoming incorporated and in fact they are even dmm to the ste.ge now where they will be to the advantage of fishermen,for instance~ who own their boat, a vessel, longliner-fishermen is the thing I have never understood why more of them did not become incorporated the same as farmers in the Tt!est have become incorporated or anyone else 'to7ho wants to enter into a business in r,1hich he uses his car and his home and so on for various nurposes, because incorporation of course can save him a great deal in tax and can also give him certain Hrite-offs and certain benefits.

So I think that that is valid possibly to a certain point but there are many, many small businesses and corner grocery stores and so on in this clays of liability ivho are becoming incorporated for their protection and therefore this does aP~ly that less and less of these people are therefore liable under this clause. On motion, clause 73 with amendment, carried. On motion, clauses 74 and 75, carried. 'MR. HI CK}1'AN: There is a small amendment to 76, Mr. Chairman.

I move that in line one, "Manpower and Industrial Relations Act," be stricken out and su':lstituted therefore, "Labour and Manpower Act." Then on the marginal note that should be 77,

chapter 29. ~·lP. LUSH: On motion, clause 76 ~nth amendment, carried. On motion, clauses 77 to 83, carried. Before 'lile dispense with the bill I am ivondering again if the P.ouse would give me leave to have a point clarified because when ~-":r. Chairman started off this morning I never had my book opened and it was gone before I could get to a couple of points I wanted cleared UP. TI1ere are two points in 48 and 49; they are just minor points but I would like for the minister to clear them uP if I could have leave of the Rouse just to ask the question. They are not debatable points, just a matter of clarification from the

June 7, 1977 Tape No. 3893 ~TY - 3 ~1R. LUSH: minister. ~8 and 49. MR.. CHAIP~f.AN: Agreed. MP .• LUSH: I am just >vondering under 48 whether when the bill was being drafted whether there was any consideration given to being able to 1.0948

June 7, 1977, Tape 3894, \ Page 1 -- apb MR. LUSH: ' give a notice orally. am just wondering why it was written. For example, a person could give an oral lnotice with a witness I available. Sometimes, wit~ our Newfoundland people, I to make out a written noti t e becomes a bit difficult and I am just wondering why oral notice was not considered as an alternait ye? The other point - I will raise both - the other point was in 49, and this one was stating cases where written notice is not I necessary and I am wonderi pg why (

f) was included in that? For example, it says a written notice is not I required if the employee has reached the age of retirement. That causes a lot of problems in the teaching profession,! :know,and I am just wondering why they were exempted of a written notice? MR. ROUSSEAU: That is a fact that we I know when a person reaches a certain age. But I am told by the people who administer this Act that oral notice has been a problem.

We have had a number of problems with it and as with many other things in the Act, while they are put in there and they may seem like there is a little more detail than there should be, it is done on the basis of experience. Proof of notice is often needed and sometimes is not available. So in order to protect everybody involved and to be better able to administer that

section and that concept of termination the people there felt that written notice was important. And while it is, like you say, for many people in the Province not something they want to do, to sit down and do that sort · of thing, it is for their protection as we have had a number of problems in the past. As I mentioned before,when I was speaking,there are many things in here that may not be Twentieth Century labour Standards legislation 10 943

June],, 1977, Tape 3894, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROUSSEAU: but because of some aspects that prev.ent working between labour and management in this Province,in the non-unionized areas, we have had to put them in. Where they have been put in they have been put in for a purpose, and this is certainly one of administrative difficulty,and to protect the employee. MR. LUSH: How about (f)? You did not comment on that one, 49(f). , ~!R. ROUSSEAU: (f)? ~lhy we have it written is to ensure that we have proof. When a person has reached the retirement age we know that then to be a fact.

Because he is by birth certificate age 65, there is no question about the administrative ability to prove that he has reached that age. Motion, that the Committee report having-passed-a -bill, "An Act To Provide Uniform Minimum Sta-ndards -of- Corlaitions Of Employment In The Province," with amendment, carried. (Bill No. 34). On motion that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of The Whole reports having passed Bill No. 34, with amendment, and ask leave to sit again.

On motion report received and adopted. On motion, amendments read a first and second time bill ordered read a third time now by leave. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Provide Uniform Minimum Standards Of Conditions Of Employment In The Province," read a third time ordered 1.0950

June 7, 1977, Tape 3894, Page 3 -- apb passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No.34). MR. HICKMAN: \~hile I am waiting for my colleagues to get their bills together, the plan is for hon. gentlemen opposite, and I have discussed it, we will d~al with a few houseke~ping bills first and then get on with some more debatable ones. --· 1.0951

June 7, 1977 Tape 3895 EC - 1 HR. HICI0!.:\N: Order 11. ~· lotion, second reading of a bill, ".An Act To ~. epeal The Private Investment Holding Companies Act, 11 (Bill No. 48). MR. SPEAKER: The han. :Hinister of Justice. MR. HIC~.AN: Hr. Speaker, this is simply a bill to repeal

an Act that has never been used, and the provisions for the same protection is provided under The Companies Act. I move second reading of Bill No. 48. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Repeal The Private Investment Holding Companies Act, 11 Bill :No . 48, read a second time, ordered referred to a committee of the TNhole House presently by leave. Order 15. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The District Court Act, 1976," (Bill No. 59). ¥F..

SPEA..'l{ER: The han. l·tinister of Justice. ~fF .• HIC~.AN: These amendments,with the request of the district court judges,are set forth very clearly in explanatory notes. The present Act provides that there shall be a conference once a year to be held in June by the district court judges. They point out that June is their busiest mor.th and they \vould prefer that it be left within their discretion so long as it is required that they meet once a year, which the Act is designed to do. The second clause imposes upon the clerk rather than on the judge the responsibility to file the weekly court report.

And the third is with respect to the rules committee, and again the judges ask that the chief judge of the district court be the chairman of the rules committee. I move second reading. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The District Court Act, 1976," 'Oill No. 59, read a second time, ordered referred to a committee of the vJhole House presently by leave.

June 7, 1977 Tape 3895 EC - 2 ~!R. HICKMAN: Order 22. :r-rotion, second reading of a bill, "An .Act To Amend The Labrador L d (R · ) A " :~ an s .eservat1on ct, (Bill No. 66). ~fR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Nines and Energy. !viR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, all thi~ act does is redefine the area that comes under The Labrador Lands (Reservation) Act.

After some study over the last-year or two, it has been discerned by proper survey and so on that there are pieces of land which no longer _- or should not be under this Act, that are free, that have no other agreements, concessions or whatever on them and,therefore, should be extracted from the Act so that the normal regulations under the Mineral Act can apply~ There is no need to keep this area delineated here in this Act under the strict regulations of the Act, so that~therefore, all this bill does is remove a small area of Labrador out of the Act because it has no particular agreements, special agreements, concessions attached to it to permit it to remain under the bill.

So the land that then is freed up becomes open for -claim staking in the normal mineral process as applies for all Crown land. So that is essentially the principle of what we are trying to do here. After the mapping crews get out and take a look at the lands involved that have concessions, special agreements, old ones, new ones and whatever, they have identified particular pieces of land, blocks of land which no longer have any concessi~ns or agreements on them, and therefore, they should be open · and free. MR. NEARY: Would the minister permit me a question? What was the purpose of the Act in the first place?

I mean, is there something - MR. PECKFORD: The purpose of the Act is to reserve certain lands from the normal 1..0953

June 7, 1977 Tape no./ 3896 Page 1 - :rrs ~R. PECKFOP.D. Cro~m land operation because they come under special agreeBents or special concessions. I'.igh_t? ~:es. ;:R. PECK.FORD: So that they are all ~ut under one act, and blocked out and therefore - ~-'R. :EARY: You mean if they -.;vere left out like the Labrador ~1ining DevE7-lopment Cor~oration. So these \vere pieces of land left out. They are no man's land more or less. ~-1JL PECKFOR.D: This act essentially envelops all land in Labrador under ".vhich tl1ere are some ki!ld of an agreeme!lt or concession or mineral development okay? - in effect. ~ight. :m.

PECKFIJP.D: Now ~.;hen the staff of t··!ines and Ener~'· revie,....-eti these various agreements and concession and so on - LLey found pieces of la!ld. ~:::? .• P:!::CKFOP..D: That is right . :m.. iTE .. \RY : Itight. ~-s..P;::C:ZFORD: So they try to piece it off 2.3ainst "1hat is there and they said, ()h, iloly snake, t~1ere is a piece of land here that is under no concession or no asreement and should come out from out the aegis of this act. :IT'~. l'!R. ~1!? .• ~f~~· :':R. ''Jl,. :'l''E..-\RY: PI!:C:ZFOP..D: ~1R.<\?,Y : , , PECKFORD: SPEAKER: STRAC~'l: And now thev would be up for grabs.

And nmv t:-1ev ':vould be up for grabs . Okay, good enough. Exactly. The han. member for Ea3le River. Could the minister explain ti1is part here, Lands •v-hich are held by a corporation such as '"e have Brinnex here and various other corporations by the mineral conc2ssions they are :;iven that they must periodically therefore reduce the acreage, the square niles that they have~the concessions for each year under their initial agreements? In other words,they would prospect on various lands and so on 1..0954

J~ne 7, 1977 Tape no. 3896 Page 2 - 1:1s :'1r. Strachan. and this Hould be released or given up. ~·Tould this land then 6iVen U!J by tZJ.ese COrporations oe land ";-Jhich this act itself would take into consideration - ~· ~Tt. PECKFOP~: Yes. ~p,_. STRACI:L!\J.~: - that as it is given up it is nmv reverted back t~rough this here? l1R. PECKFORD: Yes, in Labrador, right. MR. • STRACHfu'ii : So the :Orinex Corporation then nm.; have no holdings on these lands? ~· fP,. PECI\:FOPJ) : Yes, exactly.

As the lands then are given up, could the minister explain to us whether this is goigg to tie in at all with his resource tax or his mineral acreage tax? Because this seems to come very close in so~e ways. And will there be more lands coming up on t~is basis as a result of the mineral acreage tax - ;.f.P.. PECKPORD : 'Yes. HR. STRAC:HAN: - which are applied and therefore companies ivill either have to prospect or get out or drop the concessions. Could he explain that? }ffi.. PECiZFORD: Right.

This is an ongoing process and every year you will see due to refinement in the surveys, one; ' ttvo, because of agreements .. that are coming due and land is being dropped, you will continue to see this kind of an amendment here, plus, as the hon. member has jast pointed out, under the new mineral impost bill or mineral acreage tax where a company ivill have to spend X number of dollars on its concessionaire area or if it does not, it ~•ill have to pay a tax or relinauish some of the acreage and so that, therefore, this will be another ':.vay in ~.;hich the government '.vill be freeing up additional land for prospecting by whomsoever will,and that ~•ill continue to be :':Iat.v the Mineral Acreage Tax bill itself has not been given notice of vet. 1.D955

June 7, 1977 Tape no. 3896 Page 3 - m.s :--ffi.. PECKFOFJ). He are still working on a fe~v details in it. But the ~vhole i:1tent of the Hineral Impost bill is as the han. member says. It r,Jill see sane additional acreage becoming free. So one, you have refinement of surveys ,,rhich leads to some areas t:.1at ~-1ere under the act •.vhich should not be there; t\vo, the gradual relinquishment by companies under agreements of acrea~~ that has to be given up; and three, the Mineral Acreage tax when it comes into effect >vill alL have a great bearing on amendments to t:1.is particular act.

On motion, a bill, "A:: Act To !v."!lend The Labrador Land~ ~eservation Act, ·· read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Hhole !louse presently by leave. :V!R. ni CIOWI : Hotion 8. "'!otion second reading of a bill, "P..n Act To .Amend The Urban And Rural Planning Act." ('!1"11 "T ..ul .~..0. 45). The han. Hinister of Hunicinal Affairs and Housing. ~~. DINN: - Yes, - ~r. Speaker, this bill has several changes basically in the departnent to define responsibilities, etc. and ~ybe if I should go _ through the clauses and the changes tl1at ·..;e have in here it ':-7ould be r:1ore readily understood.

Clause (1) for eva.,.., le the a.,.,.,end.,..,ent ·.·.7 0Ula" •=>:~t"'nd t-he time allm.;ed ' •• ,,,p ' '"" • '" ~-- "' - - a council to prepare a illUnicipal plan, 1.0956

June 7, 1977 Tape no. 3897 :? .:1ge 1 - :ns ~~r. Di::m. a::.d I ~v-ould extend that ti:ne to five years. And basically b.e ?ro·..:lec:t :1ere is that t-::·70 years just si::1ply is. not e:noug~ ti:::.e fo~ councils to prepare t~eir pla~s, and t his is a~ extension so that they meet the requirements of the act. The Clause :\lo. 2, the amendment, Hould ma~~e the Director of Urban and Rural Planning responsible for the technical examination of municipal plans.

Right nm·J it is vested in the minister of the department and we feel that the Director of Urban and Rural Planning is qualified to do that and so he ;;.;rill do it and sujmit his report to the ~inister. Clause 3, that amendment 1-.rould permit representations as ':vell as objections to be !!lade at public hearings on a :nunicipal plan. ~.ight nm.;r T.;rhen we request changes to plans, objections are received by a coronissioner set up by the minister, and they do not basically allow representations to be made by ;?eople ;;.;rho want the plans changed.

So Clause 3 -.;.;rould allm.;r this and allm.; the represent -atioss­ to be made so the co~~issioner can make a reasonable decision on the plans and submit his report to the minister. Basically the other clauses from Clause 3 to Clause 7 are the same thing in that they add the words, 'representations along with objections' to be made. So Clause 4, 5, 6 and 7 just adq words to the act so that representations can be made. Clause 8,

Section 38 at present reads as follows: "Before the scheme referred to in

Section 37 is adopted by the resolution of the _'cuthorized Council tTN'O copies thereof shall be sent to the minister." T~e are changing that from the minister to the Director of Urban and Rurual Planning as explained in Clause 1. :~. ~~E.ARY: ~ .Jhy change it? :s.. DI:TN: I just \vant to make this clear to the Committee that it does not give the po~ver to the Director of urban and Rural Planning. It gives him the power to technically go through the plans - :•ffi.. DOODY: And make recommendations. ER. DINN: - and make recommendations to the minister. 1..0957

jl:ne 7, 1977 Tape no. 3897 Page 2 - ns The !!linister has the final say. He certai::lly does, yes. Clause ~o. 9: "This anendrr:.ent 'vould -per:n.it :?ublic Authorities, such as a Commlli~ity Council, to prepare and acminister ~!unicipal Plans." And ~ve think that this is a necessary change to the Urban and !\.ural Planning Act so. that ~ve can have some sort of control in the local body, and the community councils have requested this, and we think it is ultimately the thing that has to come. So that is basically all, ~' !r. Speaker, in these revisions or changes, and I, t~erefore, move second reading. ~IR.

SPE.A ... ZE:R: The hon. illember for LaPoile. '-TT<' ~ uy • .. '1...;....,j ... '-l.-lt. .... • Speaker, I have no objections to the bill, Sir, except that I would like for the minister to tell us if we nm.; have exoertise i-:1. this Province ,,rho can do municipal planning in line ~-lith ~.;hat t.,re already have in a particular area. For instanc~, ~1r. Speaker, ~7e have had a number of munici"pal plans done nov7 over the past several years, over the past tt.,renty years, I suppose,or so, and in some cases they are grandiose ,lans. They are far beyonc 1 outside the scope or the reach of the to.-..m councils.

You knm-1, they are just Utopia, and they are not realistic at all. They are completely unrealistic. And I was wondering if the minister could tell us if there are any municipal planning ongoing nm.,r and if so •,.,rhere they are taking place? And if the minister can also tell us~ in closing the de8ate, what is going t0 be done about these areas ~·7here you have local irnnrovement districts and community councils, and in some cases tm-m councils, and you have dumns that are springing '.l'J right alon6 the hic:;h~·7ay, right 0:1 the 'Qoundary or so~eti:nes :=ven TN'ithin t~e boundaries of these to~ms?

I rnean,should there not ~e some authority given to some grou~s in the area to stop these dumps? .And I .::.!11 t:1iLl:'-i:l~ a"".:out - I t hink t~1e liinister o£ :usti C·3 c2.:1 !t is 1..0958

June 7, 1977 Tape 3898 EC - 1 MR. ~EARY: a terrible thing. I have written the Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment about it. And the minister ~.;as do\m there some time ago and had a look at it - the Minister of Justice. But it is terrible and something should be done about it. HR. MURPHY: Is it incorporated? MR. NEARY: Do they have a waste disposal? It is a local improvement district and in my opinion there should be a town council. You know, the local improvement district members who were appointed there have lost interest really. MR. MURPHY: When did you write me? MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon?

I think I wrote the minister's department several weeks ago about it. ~·1R. !1URPHY: MR. NEARY: I will check on it. Isle aux Harts, eh? Isle aux Morts and further down, by the way. Down in Burnt Islands it is the same thing. :HR. MURPHY: but now they - AN HON. }!EMBER: MR. NEARY: ~fR. MURPHY : :t-1R. NEARY: MR. HURPHY: SOHE HON. HE:HBERS: HR. NEARY: We should take a look at all of them really They should be done away with. The dumps? (Inaudible) You will find the - I will get Mr. Evans - Oh, oh! I do not know what Hr. Evans' job is. He is an inspector for the Department of Public Harks.

It is too bad they did not make him an inspector for the Department of Hunicipal Affairs. :MR. • l'-1URPHY: The other man handles certain types - it is not the ordinary ones he is - MR. NEARY: No, I took care of that. That kind of dumping I took care of already, but - AN HON. HEMBER: That is the end to dumping. 1..0959

June 7, 1977 Tape 3898 EC - 2 AN HON. HE't-'ffiER: He can have a look at it. :rn.. NEARY: But it is a terrible eyesore. It is a health hazard. It is terrible. Now I do not knmv if there is any planning done in these conununities where you have local improvement districts or community councils. Now there is going to be a town council,I think, election very soon. The minister has not set the date yet although the returning officer has been appointed, but the sooner the better for the very reasons I am talking about. It is really, really terrible - paper and garbage and everything just blowing across the road.

The 1'-1inister of Justice can confirm '"hat I am saying because the minister drove down in my district and took a look at it and was impressed with the district,apart from the fact the minister had to complain about the dumps, and I have to complain about it because they are terrible. And I think something should be - HR. DOODY: You must have had just about the whole ministry down at one time or another. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR. DOODY: You must have had just about the entire ministry down at one time or another with the exception of me. I feel rather hurt about this. SO"ME RON. }(EMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.

NEARY: \-Jell that certainly waul d be a great privilege and an honour to have the Minister of Finance come down to my district and I am sure that Robert McGrath, local pharmacist~would welcome the han. gentleman with open arms. He has attacked every other minister that I have had out there. SO}(E HON. :IEMBERS : Oh, oh! HR. DOODY: He is our chief Tory. }-1R. NEARY: And I think one of the conditions now that I will make '"hen a minister comes out to speak to a service club or something is that Bob ~!cGrath does not give the vote of thanks to the minister. SO"ME HON. 't'fE}ffiERS: Oh, oh! 1 0°."'0 . -o

June 7, 1977 Tape 3898 EC - 3 But it is, Sir, a real eyesore, and I hope that the minister can find a r..;ray to do something about it. :1.P_. r,JQODRO\-l: Hr. Speaker. NP .• SPEAKER: The han. member for Bay of Islands. r'ffi.. HOODRC'H: I ~vould just like to ask the han. minister, When Hill a decision be reached on the municipal plan which is already in my hands for Irishtown~ if he has anything to say about this at the moment'? HR. SPEA:<ER: The han. member for Eagle River. Nr.

Speaker, this urban and rural planning act concerns us, and if I can get more towards my district rather than thinking generally, it extends the period of time from two years to five years in which communities or councils can prepare a plan of the community, where it is 'loin .P" and so on -. And one of the ol:-jections; :for instance, on the Labrador coast~ one of the severe objections over many years ha? been the fact that · the · councils there are very keen on planning.

For instance,the recent development at Hopedale where the people of Hopedale had to vote whether to leave Hopedale or stay was because of a geographic , a constriction in the community of Hopedale where essentially it is built on rock at the end of a promontory, a point, and on which they cannot move very far and on which they have problems of water, airstrips and so on like that. And if the community continues to exist as it does there is a point to be reached at which the community cannot further expand~ it cannot move any more.

Furthermore, there are problems in the communities of'>for instance, Nain, which is probably the only cocrmunity on the Labrador coast which is developing at a considerable rate, the increase in population of :'Jain due to people moving back from Goose Bay. People ~1ho -.:.;rere resettled from Hebron and :·iutak and ~amah in the past and moved to 2· !akkovi~< and Hopedale and Goose Bay and North Hest River are now moving back to Nain, Nain being the focal point because it is close to hunting places and it is the closest home to their old homes.

And there are problems there because what is occurring is that as the community now r.eaches 1 {)Q·i"1. ....... ,_o

June 7, 1977 Tape 3898 EC - 4 :rn.. STR .. t...CH/0J: a size of 1, 000 we have problems T.vith the water supply, for in~tance. We find ~hat the water 1.0so2

June 7, 1977, Tape 3899, Page 1 - - apb r-m. STRACHAN: dam route, the water route for town planning is on a main snowmobile trail. The snowmobiles are not a pastime,they are a way of life and they give people freedom also as well as hunting and hauling wood and various otaer things and, of course, they just cross right across the water site. They have been some years now asking for assistance in planning for the community, the community•s future,and it is becominQ evermore pressinqas the communities, and anybody visiting these communities.will see that these communities have developed on a very ad hoc operation.

In fact, even the Labrador Services Division of the Department of Rural Development comes in and slaps a building down here,because it seems to be the best site at the time, and another building elsewhere. There is very little planning. Although the Act is

an act to amend and to give them additional time,from two years to five-years, to develop a plan, a town plan, these communities have no tax base, and having no tax base, no money to be able to independently have a town plan drawn up, a plan which could be drawn up in consultation with them.

So I think the Act is fine inasmuch as it gives from two years to five years to plan a town properly and look to the future and pick out areas for watershed areas and areas for residential, and areas for commercial development, and areas for fish plants and so on like that, but to increase the time from two years to five years without any means of funding, without any means of assistance to these communities, is just pointless. It is wonderful exercise but it means but little.

Because I can assure you if the system carries on as it is now, then five years from now or ten years from now, there still will be no town plan apart from a few interested members of council trying to draw up something,

June 7, 2977, Tape 3899, Page 2 -- apb MR. STRACHAN: initiative. sketchily, on their own Also I have noticed that surveyors will come into these communities and the surveyors, because of the actual surveying, will become the actual town planners. We have seen some really ridiculous ideas and ridiculous buildings being created in various places without any forethought. In some cases I have seen buildings which have been set up having to be towed away from there or torn down because they were set up in the wrong place in the first instance because there was no planning.

The sur.veyors are the only ones they have contact with and therefore the surveyors become the town planners. Surveyors will become town planners if, of course, it is beneficial to surveyors to become town planners. They can cert~inly - increase their funds. Since it is coming - in my case here - much of the money is coming from government anyway, I would suggest to the minister that possibly there should be more liaison with his department in this so that we have some sensible planning done, planning done in the long-term.

Because I am sure that the amount of money it would cost - and you can say, Well, where are we getting the money for it to set up such a plan? With the amount of money which has been wasted in the short-term, year to year, all put together,! would suggest, jn the last five years, Nain could have the most beautiful town plan of any community in this Province.

Because the amount of money which has been wasted on things being set up from which there is no benefit, there is no area - I can suggest, for instance Black Tickle where we have a fish plant set up~ again by a department of government,which has cost in excess of $2 million ~ and set up in Black Tickle in an area which has no water. 1..0964

~· June 7, 1977, Tape 3899, Page 3 -- apb r~R. STRACHAN: In fact, I believe that the Department of Rural Development will be shipping down a large ice making machine this Summer to install in the plant~but it has no water. So how can you install a large ice making machine into a plant, and how do you design and situate a plant into a community when there is no water to that area of the community? These kinds of wastages to me indicate that there was no planning, there was no co-ordination with the minister's depurtment.

The waste· of money, surely if put into proper town planning and proper consultation with people, could save a great deal of this. So I would like the minister to keep these points in mind. PossibJy we will probably go along with this and agree to it and so on. It is wonderful if we can do it. But without money or availability or expertise or resources to the communities - I suppose it is all over the Province - that unless they can plan these communities then the thing is only a cosmetic, it is only there for the sake of it, it is not there because they can do anything about it.

I hope that the minister will . possibly respond to some part of that. The other thing that I have been concerned about is that where there have been some town plans drawn up, very sketchily, by his department, previously, there was always the feeling that the department was imposing on the community a town plan in which the community had no real input. Particularly I refer to,

June 7,1977 Tape 3900 - rf.orning AH-1 HR. STH..ACHA..l\l': again, the situation in my district in which most of these plans are brought up and discussed during the Summertime, in t!~e Summertime when the cornnuni ties are dm,"!l to one third of the population.

In fact,the neople who are the leaders of the communities, the leaders of the council or elders or 1-7l,_atever 'rou have on the coast, these pe9ple are the most active and generally the most productive people, these peonle are gone and do not come back to the community until September or October, in ·t-rhich case they have already something dravm up especially or something done by the minister's department.

And I can understand many civil servants not wanting to travel to Labrador in the ~·Tinter, the 'Fall or Spring 'to7here they spend six ueeks instead of two v1eeks, but at the same time the thing is that these plans are often drP~vn up or suggestions are made and carried out without proper discussion with people at the proper time of the year when they are there in the communitv, such as the Hintertime when people do have meetings and it is the highlights of community life.And I would hope that possibly the minister will take this into consideration because th~.way it is gain~ now I can see chaos in many communities~ and in five or ten years time as the coast in Labrador itself is changing and exploding in some Hays there can be real chaos in some of t~e communities and you can he compounding the problems t~at the minister may not face but other ministers will face with garbage problems, gar~age dumps situated in the middle of a communities and various things like this.

So hopefully that woncerful as they are in looks and so on')and fine.,I suggest that it is purely a cosmetic ~..rith no real teeth behind it because where is the money to do it? HR. SPEAKER: l'R. P1!ITE: Honemember for Lewisporte. Mr. Chairman, I just want to say a couple of things _ about this particular bill and to relate an exneritnce or t':vo. I agree ~.rith the bill changing the time limit from t-.:vo vears to five vears because in mv o-.;m district there are a couple of cases · where the councils have not had the opportunity to compi~e a municipal plan.

It is difficult sometimes \vhen vou only have part-time municipal 1.0966

June 7,1077 Tape 3900 - ?vfornin?; AH-2 ~1R. HHITE: r.;orkers and all this kind of thing to get a hill together. Mr. Speaker, ~vhat I am more concerned about than that, and I hope the minister can address himself to ,is that v7hen an council or an area is given or asked to compile an municipal plan I just wonder hm• much teeth that particular plan is going to have? And,you know,hm..r often are the legs going to be cut out from under municipal councils in the Province? I am referring specifically, Hr.

Speaker, to the town council in Norris Arm, the second largest community in my district and the second largest tmm council obviously. AN HON ~ffiMBE~ : '·ffi.. WHITE : Hhere would that be? Norris Arm, Norris ArM South, There are two \!orris Arms, rJorris Arm ~·lorth and Norris Arm South-, but Norris Arm South is the larger community that has a municipal council. Nm..r recently, Hr. Speaker, there Has a hit of a controversy in Norris Arm over the situation surrounding the quarry there,or gravel pit as most Newfoundlander's refer to an area that is used for the taking of sand or gravel.

The Department of Hines and Energy issued a permit to a private contractor to take materials from the quarry at Rattling Rrook~which is a couple of miles to the 1.Jest of ~~orris Arm,without asking first the opinion of the - municipal council ~vith respect to the taking of that material. And the excuse given by the Department of Mines and Energy and by the Department of \1unicipal Affairs and Housing was that the auarry in question did not come ~.rithin the boundry of the town of Norris Arm.

Now it did not come within the boundry of the town of Norris Arm but it came within the planning area of the town of Norris Arm,and the planning area in question of course is the area that the town council in ~r orris Arm are using to plan the future grov1th of their tmm. The town council in Norris Arm v1anted the Department of Mines and Energy to refer the application by the private contractor for the particular quarry to them before approving it. This was not done :t.09o7

June 7,1977 ape 3°00 :orning AH-3 MR. i'ffiiTE: by the Department of Mines and Energy and apparantely Mines and Energy or any other department does not have to go first to .a municipal body and ask their permission or ask their comments before going ahead and issuing permits for the taking of gravel or development of any kind although the legislation with respect to the Urban and Rural Planning Act said specifically that they should do that. 1.0968

June 7, 1977 Tape No. 3901 'l'r-1:- 1 1-I.F.. FHITE: The !'Oint I want to make is that I ~vould like for the minister to clear un once and for all \vhat novrer a council has in terms of its ~uniciPal planning area. ~fhen Yines and Energy received an aPPlication for a Permit to develon the auarry 'tvest of Norris Arm they referred it to Crown Lands, they referred it to Health, they referred it to Environment, to Trarsoortation and Communications but not to the Town Council of Norris Arm,"Y7hich I think is ridiculous.

If a person wants to build in the area of the gravel pit we are talking about on the other side of the road where there are a lot of Sut!lmer cabins, all those Summer cabin owners had to go to the town council to get a permit first, ~vhich was right and proper.

But for the Department of ~ines and Energy to go to work and to issue a permit to take gravel and to destroy the area west of Norris Arm without any comment from the town council or without the apnroval of the town council~I think it is unfair and I think the process should be stopped and I hope the minister does address himself to that because it is a situation that a lot of our councils in this Province are going to find themselves in.

If you are going to give a tovm council power, give ther.t ultimate power in terms of the development of the area and not have people going in, making their own regulations and cutting the legs out fr~m under them. Hr. Speaker, I support this bill because it does give councils a longer Period of time to come up with municipal nlans.

As I said,a lot of them only have part-time workers and it takes a vrhile to get it all together, but I hope that this particular issue '·rith respect to municipal planning areas and municipal boundaries is straightened out before we have more cases of councils resigning as we did in Norris Arm this year. >.rp. SPFAKE"? : YP... DINN: If the minister speaks now he closes the dehate. The hon. [·finister of :runicinal Affairs and Housing. ~rr. Speaker, if I can address myself to some of the items raised by the han. members_opposite, the han. member for LaPoile c~,fr.

Neary) talked about having some grandoise plans in toYmS and 1.0963

June 7, 1977 Tape No. 3901 ~- 2 ~1R. DINN: I agree that some of them are quite extensive and that I feel right now rryself that if I could get the planning done for all 308 municipalities I ~~uld be one of the happiest ministers in the Province today,because I do feel that councils have to have a guideline to go by and this guideline will be provided by their municipal plan. With respect to his question about local improvement districts, I ~o1ould like to see all councils in Newfoundland elected and the Local Improvement District of I believe .Isle At'X ~forts was the one that the hen. member brought up - ~.

NEARY: And Rose Blanche is the same tvay. MR. DINN: And obviously Rose Blanche as well. We have not received any input from the people of the area as of yet, as I understand it, nor from~the people who serve on the local improvement district. But I will endeavour - ~-tR. NEARY : They were going to resign there last week. ~. DINN: I -.;rill ·endeavour to find out for the han. member and if the wish of the people is to have an elected town council then that is the route that we will follow in November. ~1R.

NEARY: The same thing happened in Corner Brook, the same thing. ~nd there is a concerned c~tizens group in Isle Aux ~orts. HR. ~fUPPHY : The minister does not order these, these are by the request of the people HR. DINN: Well 9we like to see it that way, just to answer the hen. Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. We like to see the leadership coming from the people rather than to force something on the people that they do not want.

Just to give the hen. member an examole, 1i1edgewood Park is a local improvement district and I have more representations from ~-ledgewood Park than probal::ly all of the Island combined and Labrador with respect to keeping their local improvement district, rather than having an elected town council. So there are both sides of the story and - AN RON. ~ffiER: It is all run by the City.

June 7, 1977 Tape ~lo. 3901 - 3 ~ ffi. DINN : In the case of Wedgewood Park, they want to J;etain their community as a local improv~ent district. So that is the kind of thing 'tV'e would like to see. I would certainly like to see elected to"tm councils and so on an~ if at all possible, if we get representation from the people or from. the community at large then we will attempt to do that in the upcoming municipal elections. Now the other item that the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) brought up, Mr. Speaker, is the problem that we are having all across the Province with respect to these dump sites.

We are attempting right now to work with the Department of the Environment to try to bring about some sort of change. The Coast of Labrador,for example,where we do not have the land fill, we just do not have 1{)9 71

J:.~::e7, !977 " .. ~ Dinn. t~e ~eterial there forlandfilled si~es. ~-~e ::.re at~c-rpt:.in.~ i~ a prog::-a~.r:e t~1is ~rear -:; .. ;rf:.er2:,y ··-!e. cc..r1 provide i:..J.c.i::2rc.tors to so:ne of those areas. ~;it~1 respect to tZ1e Isle aux ~:arts problen t:.1at the l10n, memoer orougl1t up on that duiJ.p, -.Jasically it is up to the :-Iinistry of Environment to indicate that it is unsightly and it has to be closed,and then the councils >;vauld nake represe!l.tations to :::1y depart;nent, and we vould go back attempti!l.g to C:.o sm::.e::ilir:g about it. 3ut ,,re cia have a problem in ~~e':-r~ound.lan~, as t~:e :1o!l.. cne!llcer :1as pointed out, J.:ld it is cne th2t '·le ~1ave to address ourselves to in the very near future. 1;.Tould the l1on. u:2i:lister permit a question?

Certainly. ~-'}'_. CALLAli : Yes, the minister referred to placing incinerators in I"abrador >:·There there is verv little landfil and so on. There are several questions that I have been asking quite often regarding incinerators. i'Tu:r:1ber one, hmv many incinerators does the ~~~unicipal Affairs department have,say~ on hand to distribute this year? Are they manufactured in this Province or are they imported? I understood last year that there were some being brought in from outside, a smaller, cheaper type incinerator than the ones that \vere manufactured, for example, at the ~'1arystmvn Shipyard back in 1971.

So, you know, TN"hat criteria· is used for the distribution of these incinerators, number one1 How many are going to be placed throughout the Province? And, you know, should that be just one of the criteria and the fact that there is very little landfil? I mean, you know, should there not be incinerators everywhere -cvhere, you knmv, rats are breeding and so on in places that I have snoken about in this House before? And, ?OU :Znm-1, I brought up the. situation at Jacks Pond Park.

You k.c"'1aH, it seems very, very strange to me that Jacks Pond Park is carrying their garbage to the Chance Cove open dump, and, you kna't·T, they are travelling t":vice as far as they >vould have to travel to go from Jacks Pond to the incinerator at Sunnyside. 1",-)by is this allmved to }lappen? I brought it up last year. The :·Iinister of 1 .f)Q~_,·i2 _t.P&J If

June 7, 1977 Tc.pe :10. 3:?02 :?2..ge 2 - ss ~-ir. Callan. Tourism and the ::-iinister of the Enviror.:nent and the for:::er ~S.nister of IIunicipal Affairs said that t~ey \·JOuld look into it, and they ~•ould arrange something, but still :1othing has been a!"ra!lged.. Still t::.at ra1-:r gar!Jage has been tc.~-<.e:J. tc c.n o-r.: en dur:~::? at Chance Cove ~hen there is an incinerator balf the distance mvay. These are several questions that I brought up. }~. DDTN: I guess, Mr.

Speaker, .just to address myself to the oYerall problem of incineration on the Island, obviously -r.ve are going do-wn that road, and ~·7e r . .;ould like to see incinerators e•Ter~TT·7here if -r.ve could. He are attempting to get together on a ;:-eriodic basis <vhen -r.;e get an opportunity ~vith t~'le :Iinister of the Environment. And ~ve have investigated different types of incinerators.

There is one called a pit incinerator that ~•e are hoping to introduce in an area this year - for a region, rather, than just for one council, because '"e feel that these incinerators are a thing of the future in that they consume all of the ~ar~age on a high heat basis and there is virtually nothing left but a black ash, and we \vould like to go along that route. 'Hith respect to where Jacks Pond Park should dump their gar~age, I am afraid that is a little outside my authority as }finister of ~unicipal Affairs in that obviously the park comes under the jurisdiction of the Hinister of Tourism, and if ~rou '\·70uld address your question to him at a later point in time then he could probably answer that question a little better than I could.

Now, Hr. Speaker, the hon. member for Eagle River G·Jr. Strachan) tall:ed about Labrador with respect to planning, ancl I do not lzna\·7 if the han. ~ember is a":vare or not, Jut t}le co~1bi~ed councils doT·m there did i1ave a ;neet::.:-<s and :!lade re?rese~tations to ':he depe::::t:-1ent: 2.t t:le tillle, at tte ::~eeting.

As a natter of fact, ~e ~ere ?robably one sten a!.l.ead, and give::::t the co""Jbined councils of Labrado:::- a :.or!'!:'.itnent t~at ~-:e ':vill be sendi:1g a ple.n::::ter to Labrador tl1is year and -soing to the different comnunities wit~ the idea of settin~ up nunici?e.l plans in all of tDe co::ununities in La'.:lrador. So the process is starting t:·lis year. 1.0973

':':o.De no. 3:?··':'3 l - ::~s ·- Jinn. I am not say·i~g that "'Ne \vill ha,Te all tl1e plans co:npleted t~is year, but certainly ,.;re \Jill start the ?ro;;rame and Z\ave so~e done t~is year on an ongoing basis. Then they Hill be done as ti:J.e ;;oes on. ~ · ~ould •he !... ........... minister ictdicate ,.;het!ler · .. ;auld cite communities r-Jith a pressing problem, Hopedale for instance, rather than other con:munities if t~ere \vere a sense of priority in assessing these communities? ~·IR. Dii~N: Yes, Basically, ~!r.

Speaker, tb.e planner that ':ole intend to send down there cdll sit cio~n ':vit;l the combined co~ncils and may~e they can talk to the planner and indicate to him \vhere they feel the most pressing problems are, and hopefully he ~,rill look after them from that point of VieH. ~ow the other thing the han. member for EAgle River (:'~r. Strachan) brought up, :fr.

Speaker, \vas lvith respect to input by councils into their planning. \•7ell, just for clarification, ue may do a plan or assist a council to do a plan, but that plan is approved or rejected by council initially before it is sent to the minister for his approval. So that they do not have input in that they can go through their plan, talk to the planner, find out what different items in the plan mean,and then pass a ~!inute-in-Council and send "it in to me for approval. ::lR. STRAC:-iA...~ : That programme is nm-1 taking place? :m.. DTNN: That is correct. ~'ffi. ST'?ACHAN : That is how it is going to be done. HR.

DINN: Yes. ER. STRACHA..~: Yes, I •vas referring to the past \vhere it had not 'Jeen done that r,7ay. ~!R. DE~: ~Jhere they ':vere sent plans. They still had to approve. I ~ean~they still had to say, yes, ,.,e agree and pass a ~·!inute-in-Council and a -:na.j ority and so on for that plan to be approved. HR. STRACHAN: ~o, no,not exactly. If I can explain:

June 7, 1977 :1r. Strachan. Tape no. 3903 Page 2 - ms r.-rnat was heppenig there 'vas they "~>Jere sent plans 3 but \·lhat \·las occurring r.ras that at the ti:n.e of the year Hhen the surveyors ~•auld come in, the surveyor ~·rould be the planner. Yes. :·!R. STRACH&1': A..TJ.d he 1.vould take the plan, and he would then adopt it or change it and move it around and you 1vould find homes going places where the surveyor thought the homes should go or where a system should go and so on. ~~at we are talking about is fine.

I ~hink as the minister said in the act here that there will be input from the community, and I accent that. Yes, right. ~!R. • STRACHA1~ : If that is the ~vay it is going to be carried . ~· out, that is fine. But what I am stating is that in the past it \vas not done that r..vay. Okay. These were probably interim plans and not registered, say, municipal plans. NR. STRACHA...~: Interim for 100 years. ~1R. DINN: Right. Okay. So I hope that satisfies the han. member for Eagle River (t-~r. Strachan). The han. member for Lewisporte (Hr.

Hhite) did point out a problem that 1ve had in the past, and that is \vith resnect to landfill sites and •..;hat ''e call ~ravel pits and that kind of thing ':.Jithin communities, and \vith respect to the ;1articular item he brought up~ c•Tith respect to ~:)orris Arm where a sand and gravel site ~.;ras in their planning boundary. The ~inister of '·1ines and Energy issues the permit, t-fr. Speaker, and he does not have to. If it is Crown land, etc., he does not ::ave to refer t:1at to council.

But I have a commitnent from ti1e :uinister that i:J. future Tvhen these .affect r:mnicipalities that ;Jernit is proposed to the :n.unici~ality for their approval . ~ a e.:.. ore t:1e particular site is approved for sa:::1d and gravel, etc. 1.0975

: u!!e 7, 1 )77 Is ~·-,e :- e any a r aa outsi..le t::a c :.s a control a rea, l~~e sonetni~~ our ~!e tr opolitia~ tere . Is ~~ere a t> To or t ~ r ee or : our o r- :ive ;::ile :1he r e t.he cot.:'!lc:.l ~ 1cul.: h~va :-:on. ~~i:'list:er of Consu;::er Affairs , there is in some cases a plan ning a r ea aro~~d a ~unici pa lit y . I t co~es t.:nder t he jurisdicti on, nowever , of the ::ninister in mos t cases! .And tvith It :,·oul d oe a courtes y rather t !>.zn cbli :;a tory . Ri ght. In t:tis case it tvould be a c::lu:-tesy to t i:e t m·m council . And t.;ith respect to the Cro\.m land , etc .

I have gotten a commitment from t he hon . ;:; nister of >L!.:1.es anci Energy to get t.o the council ~efore he issues t ~e pernit . So :·li t~ t hat, ::::- . S?eaker , I :nove second reading . On motion, a bill, "An A