LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Mond ay, 15 June, 1987. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - GOVERNMENT SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: Committee, come to order. We will begin Government Services with a statement by the Minister. Mr. Minister. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Before introducing Government Services Estimates, I would like to briefly outline the department's role and mission to better acquaint you with our Estimates' components.

Manitoba Government Services provides a wide range of centr al support services to other gov ernme nt departments as well as some agencies, boards, corporations and commissions. These services include the supply and management of common commodities and services as well as the design, construction and management of government buildings. This past year was one of self-assess ment for my department. We took a close look at how we do business through various reviews of our operations.

These included recently completed studies of the Central Provincial Garage and overall government courier use, as well as reviews of office equipment servicing and government parking policy which are still under way. This past year, the Department of Gov ernment Services also canv assed all other gov ernment departments to obtain their feedback on acces sibility, quality and use of our services. We feel our success as a central service agency depends on our ability to meet our clients' needs.

There was an excellent response to the survey and it has proved to be a helpful tool in determining future directions in service provision. We were extremely pleased that 94 percent of the respondents indicated our services were acceptable to very good. Though there were many positive comments, we are also paying close attention to some of the concerns that were expressed. We are planning to continue soliciting client feedback on a periodic basis through surveys.

In addition, our program management will be scheduling regular meetings with their respective clients to discuss any problems and provide information on policy and procedure. We are also planning two department-wide initiatives designed to improve accessi bility to our services. A Government Services orientation has been developed, and training sessions for our clients will be held semi­ annually to explain procedures for accessing our depar tment's services. We will also develop a new written bulletin format for periodic distribution to clients.

It will contain notices on service procedures and changes, as well as explanations of problem areas that have been identified. In addition to the initiatives developed as a result of the client surv ey, my department has also implemented 3081 other changes in order to better serve our clients and provide an element of control in our operat ions. Perhaps the most notable of these is the formation of a Corporate Accommodation Planning Branch which was provided for in last year's Estimates.

The branch is part of our Project Services Division, and its main objective is to provide long-range and strategic planning for government-wide accommodations and capital projects. This planning will be integ rated with multiyear program planning for departments. The branch has just become operational but, once it is working to full capacity, it is expected to produce lon g-range ac commo dation and capital budget forecasts; accommodation priorities compatible with government policies; projections of long-range space requirements; and policies, procedures and guideli nes for an overall accommodation strategy.

In addition to the implementation of service programs for departmental clients, my department is also working with several new initiatives designed to assist Manitoba busi nesses and the general pub lic. One of these initiatives is the review of our tendering policies and practices with a view to providing information to Manitoba busine ss and industry on how to do business with Government Services. In the area of purcha sing, I am pleased that I was recently able to meet with my western counterparts, and unanimously request more federal purchasing in the West .

To this end, I have also recently signed a Memorandum of Understanding with the Federal Minister of Supply and Services to further promote federal spending in Manitoba. Another significant undertaking within the department is the new Emergency Measures Act which was recently passed by committee. These revisions were necessary because the existing act was developed in the 1950's, when the priority for emergency preparedness and response was focused on the possibility of a war emergenc y. As a result, the present act does not adequately allow for preparedness and res ponse to peacetime emergencies.

A major limitation of the act has been that emergency planning is stated as an optional activity, and Order s­ in-Council are required before emergency response action is supposed to be taken. These procedures are incompatible with today's emergency requirements, especially at the municipal level, where planning is essential and response must be immediate to be effective. The proposed revisions to the act are designed to correct some of these problems, while providing Ma nitob ans with the best possible emergency preparedness and response capability.

I want to mention that the Member for Turtle Mountain and several of my colleagues helped make some very worthwhile suggestions to make the legislation meet the needs of a changing societ y. There was quite a bit of input on that while that was in the House for Second Reading. Over the next year, my department will also become more active in the area of management development by providing training for our managers to assist in enhancing their ability to perform their jobs.

Monday, 15 June, 1987 Overall , my staff are working toward s providing effi cien t, quality services , while holding the line on budget and spending increases, and I think this year's Estimates are proof of this. Our total increase from last year is $8 million or 6 percent . However , a majority of this is related to rising construction and maintenance costs due to major renovati ons or additional new buildings .

Projects, such as the renovations of the old Law Courts and Land Titles Buildings; construction of the Physical Activity Vocational Training Building at the Manitoba Developmental Centre in Portage la Prair ie and the Fire and Safety Upgrading Program in locations across the province are all continuing into this fiscal year . In addition, there are several new capital construction projects which will get under way this year. They include a new Student Residence Building at Keewatin Community College in The Pas and Phase Two of the Egg Lake Camp Facilities .

As a result of many of these capital construction projects, salary expenditures have also increased . Much of this increase can be attributed to the additional staff required to maintain new and renovated buildings. The remainder is largely due to merit increments and negotiated salary increases. I am pleased with my department's efforts to hold the line on spending , while continuing to provide the services necessary for the efficient operation of our client's programs .

In the coming year, we will work towards the enhancement of our services through further consultation with the departments and the public we serve . In closing, as a new Minister, I would like to thank the staff of Manitoba Government Services for their hard work and dedication over the past year. I am certain that their continued support will provide for even greater efficiency in the year ahead. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister . The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Merci, monsieur le president, thank you , Mr. Chairman.

I want to welcome the Minister to his new portfolio and would like to thank him for his opening statement, which has outlined some of the activities of his department over the last year. As I was preparing for these Estimates, I can honestly say that this department has had only an expenditure increase of a little over $8 million. The majority of this increase is in Line 7, Expenditures Related to Capital. The figure for this year is $16 .497 million while, last year, it was $13.4948 million, an increase of approximately $3 million . On the surface, this looks all right .

However, in the Supplementary Information on page 78, we see that , when this number is broken down, a little over $9 million is going towards the total construction projects of the department, $3 million to the North Portage development, and that this department has projects managed from Manitoba Properties Inc. in the range of $10 million, which gives us a grand total for acquisition, construction of physical assets and government renovation of $22 .3 million. Now in fairness to the Minister, reference note 2.(

a) does state in the Supplementary Information Book: "Capital projects scheduled for the 1987 /88 fiscal year in the amount of $10 ,241,000 (to be funded by Manitoba Propertie s Inc .) are to be managed by Manitoba Government Services." However , 2.(

b) states: " To regulate funding and obligations, Manitoba Government Services will enter into formal agreements with M.P.I. and become its agent for design, management and construction of the designated projects ." Now, Mr. Chairman, if the Department of Government Services is going to act as an agent for design , management and construction of the designated projects for these buildings owned by Manitoba Properties Inc., then why did we sell the buildings which were in the hands of the government in the first place? If this department is still doing all the work, why did you sell off the buildings?

This is where I and my party have problems with the Manitoba Properties Inc., Mr. Chairman , and the reason for it being in existence. This Minister was a member of this Legislature when the law was amended to allow this government to sell away the government buildings to anyone who wanted to buy a share. And for what reason? So that this government could take advantage of a tax scam and generate badly needed dollars to finance their mismanagement of the government finances.

Over the last fiscal year, we see from the department's annual report that they overspent appropriation - that's 2.(d), No. 8 in the annual report, leased accommodations . The increase was due to rental payments resulting from the transfer of additional government-owned properties to Manitoba Properties Inc. This amount was partially offset by savings resulting from anticipated new lease acquisitions which did not occur and lease renewals and escalation rate increases which were lower than anticipated. So, Mr.

Chairman, we have serious reservations about MPI and its relationship with the department as it relates to the construction of facilit ies. However, the concerns go deeper than that. This government sold our heritage because of their mismanagement and incompetence. We have seen what they have done with MTX, MPIC's insurance deals, the Workers Compensation Board for which this Minister also has responsibilities for, the close to $189 million deficit which was created from a $36 million surplus when we left government in 1981. Mr. Chairman, we will deal further on that topic a little later.

But I simply state my point , Mr. Chairman, as a result of this government creating MPI, we have sold our heritage. We have sold what all our forefathers built up for us. The question has to be asked: Why did this government sell the already 100 percent Manitoba­ owned government buildings? The answer is still uncertain, but it would appear to me that it was for purely political reasons .

Last year in his statement, the former Minister of Government Services stated that departmental staff were involved with the Department of Busine ss Development and Tourism in seeking ways as to how the Gimli properties could be privatized . We will definitely require a progress report on what progress is being made in this regard because I know how important this is to the Town of Gimli and the surrounding area . Mr. Chairman, on May 7, the Minister along with the Federal Minister of Supply and Services, the Honourable Monique Vezina signed a federal -provincia l Memo of 3082

Monday, 15 June, 1987 Understanding which is designed to help improve the relationshi p of both governments when they are dealing with privat e enterprise as it relates to government. These are very laudable goals and I know that the Federal Government is doing everything within its power to create the necessary business climate which would help foster a better relationship between the government and its agencies and the bus iness commun ity. However, I cannot say the same thing for this government. They have a disdain for the business commun ity.

They brought in the payroll tax two years ago, and in the most recent Budget increased that tax by 50 percent . They have heaped upon the people of this province and the business community the largest tax grab in the province's history . We have a deficit out of control and now the government wants to take over ICG including its $81 .5 million deficit because they feel that they can run business better than those in the private sector . Now really, Mr.

Chairman , how does the Minister expect to foster a better working relationship with the business community and the Department of Government Services when his colleagues in the government are literally cutting his throat with all the business disincentives which have been created since this government took office . Now they want to consult with this same business community and I find it sort of ironic and I would like to quote from a press release dated May 7, 1987, federal-provincial Purchasing Memorandum .

It says it would develop strategies and initiatives which will assist the Manitoba business community in identifying and capitalizing on government procurement opportunities . Mr. Chairman, the Minister looked good on TV sitting beside the Federal Minister, but what has this Minister and the government done since the signing of that agreement to help foster this better relationship? Has a joint committee been established which is supposed to be of federal-provincial officials? Has the province completed its review of its procurement policies and practices? Mr.

Chairman, while there has been a general increase within the department, we find that EMO has had a decrease, only slightly but still a decrease in the budget. The Minister will recall the debate on Bill No. 6 which took place in the House on the new legislative authority for this organizati on and our concerns that the province was moving from a strong central EMO to dumping a majority of its responsibilities onto the rural municipalities and the villages and the cities.

The Minister spoke about how important the EMO was to the people of Manitoba and that with this new legislation its role would be enhanced, so I find it strange that we should see a reduction in the Estimates of EMO for thi s year, when for the last four years we have seen a general increase . Mr. Chairman, I believe that the Federal Government and the Pro vincial Government are serious in trying to remove obstacles. As I have indicated the Feds are mak ing progress and I would hope that this Minister will be just as serious.

I have some idea why this Memorandum of Understanding was signed - probably because of the CF-18 and at that time we heard the First Minister of this province say how badly Manitoba has been treated. Well, Mr. Chairman , Manitoba is getting contracts, contracts which this government fails to acknowledge. I'm sure the Minister of Government Services probably has it in his office, the same as we have in our caucus the Bulletin of Business Opportunities, unclassified contracts awarded to Canadian firms. I'd like to quote some of these, Mr. Chairman .

We have a contract here for repair and overhaul, miscellaneous components and accessories for Allison C-250 aircraft. The contractor , Standard Aero; the amount $800,000.00. There's another one here for the CF116, technical investigations and engineering support , the contractor, Bristol Aerospace ; the amount $600,000.00 . There 's another one for Bristol , with a CH 118 and then the CH135 and the CH 139 engineering support; the amount $583 ,000 .00.

Anothe r one for repair and overhaul of the CF-116, which is a CF-5 Freedom Fighter, airframes , contractor, Bristol Aerospace ; the amount $400,000 , and the list does go on, Mr. Chairman , and there are more . Under Printing , for paper, teletypewriter roll , the contractor, Premium Paper Products ; $57,091 .00. For rocket payload and space vehicle systems support for the National Research Council 's Space Research Program, the contractor, Bristol Aerospace; the amount $100,000 .00. For forms , from the Kromar Printing Limited , $50 ,399 .00. Then, in June, we do find more .

To repair and overhaul the Allison T56-A 14, the contractor, Standard Aero; the amount $5,272,859; and another one to repair and overhaul the Allison T63-A7008, contractor, Standard Aero; the amount $5,167,893 ; spares for the Allison T63-A-7008 aero engines, contractor , Standard Aero ; the amount $2,613,408.00. To repair and overhaul - Pratt and Whitney, R1830-90/92 aero engines , contractor, Standard Aero; the amount, $1,372,049 .00. There are more, Mr. Chairman . To repair and overhaul of the Lycoming T53-L 138, contractor, Standard Aero ; value, $1,204,701 .00.

To repair and overhaul the CF-116 , which is also the CF- 5 aircraft components, contractor, Bristol Aerospace; value, $1 million. Allison 250-C20B, aero engine spares, contractor, Standard Aero; $198,618 .00. To repair and overhaul various aero engines, contractor, Standard Aero; the amount $139,000 .00 . For field service representative for the CF-116 airframes , contractor, Bristol Aerospace; the amount , $80 ,000 .00. To repair and overhaul the Lycoming, 0-360-A4K, contractor, Standard Aero; the value, $61 ,000 .00. For toilet soap, the contractor, Gateway Soap and Chemical Company, value $11,614.00.

And that's not all, Mr. Chai rman. Then we go to the sciences . Invertebrate Research Associates, Winnipeg Man ., the file reference 01SF, for sorting, identification and enumeration of benthic and zooplankton samples collected from the Beaufort Sea location, value $91,753 .00. To Dr. S. Bayley, Sanford Manitoba, file reference O 1 SF FP430-7-9014 , to assess the effects of bog acidification on retention and release of heavy metals, for 37,000.00 . So, Mr. Chairman , the list does go on. As I have indicated earlier , Mr.

Chairman, we have problems with this Min ister because he is in charge of two major policy platfo rms of the government, namely Manitoba Properties Inc. and the Workers Compensation Board. We have seen how he has dealt 3083

Monday, 15 June, 1987 with the Workers Compensation Board and the 189 million deficit. We have seen him and his governme nt sell away our heritage through the creation of MPI. We have seen this Minister and former Ministers of the Workers Compensation Board squander a $36 million surplus, left to them by a Progressive Conservative Governmen t, Mr. Chairman . So, with those remarks , Mr.

Chairman , I just want to indicate to the Minister , that although he is new to his portfolio , he will have to answer some tough questions because of the failure of form er Ministers to act in the best interests of the people of Manitoba . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Before I call staff up, you raised several points which I could get into defending, but I guess we can deal with them as we go through our Estimates. But I guess one area I would like to mention , you come into a fairly strong defence of the Federal Government , but I guess you should defend them because they need a lot of defending .

When the federal liberals were in power, 3.7 percent of the purchasing was being done in Manitoba and I will remind you that we have 4.2 percent of the population in Canada . The federal Conservatives at that time made a lot of noise that we were not getting our fair share . I would like you to know you read quite an impressive list there , but an impressive list amounts to 2.4 percent , so they've dropped a long way from where they were under the federal liberals when you were complaining. The rest of them I'll defend them as we go through our Estimates. I'll call my staff forward at this time.

I would like to introduce my staff at this time. My Deputy Minister is Eric Harbottle ; Sally Walker is the Executive Director of Administration ; George Fejes is the ADM of Project Services; Gerry Berezuk is the ADM of Supply and Services ; Stu Ursel is Acting ADM in Property Management; Lorne Gibson is the Directo r of Management Services; Paul Rochon is the Director of Finance . MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much . HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I guess it has been customary to deal with the Workers Compensation after we have completed with Government Services under the Minister's Salary, so we will proceed with the Government Services Estimates . MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 1.(b)

(1) Executive Support: Salaries - the Member for Turtle Mountain . MR. D. ROCAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Under Executive Support, we see Salaries, $267,900, which is a reduction . I just wonder if the Minister could tell us who is in Executive Support. HON. H. HARAPIAK: In the Executive Support is my secretary, Margaret Paul ; my execu ti ve assistant , Doreen Hrabowich, who is in The Pas; Marla Neufeld is administrative secretary; and Val Leader is the special assistant. In the Deputy Minister's office, the Deputy Minister is Mr.

Harbottle, who I have introduced ; Madeline Popowich, who is adm inistrative secretary to the Deputy Minist er; Roseline Zeweniuk, who is the administrative assistant to the Deput y Minister ; and Erica Holmes, administrative secretary . It is present ly a half-time position at this time. MR. D. ROCAN : Within the past year, I wonder if the Minister could tell us, what changes in staff did occur in that department? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Well, for one thing, we had a Minister who was responsible for the Department of Highways . Now we have a full-time Minister, so ther e are some additional people have come in there.

There is also an administrative secretary to the Minister who was transferred to Managem ent Support and released to Administrative Services. There was also a half-time term staff here which was deleted as well. MR. D. ROCAN: Did the Mini ster mention - were there any changes in the Deputy Minister's office? HON. H. HARAPIAK: There was some contingency time which we converted to a half-time secretary . MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 1.(b)(1)-pass; 1.{b)(2)- pass. 1.(c)

(1) Managemen t Support: Salaries - the Member for Turtle Moun tain. MR. D. ROCAN: Could the Minister indicate how the departmental management planning is carried out? HON. H. HARAPIAK : Our process starts in January , at which time it looks at all the environmental effect s that may be happening in the department. They take the initiatives and set the budge t in the summ er months and then they implement whatever decisions are made during the budgeting to budget process . MR. D. ROCAN: Could you tell us who is part of the department's Strategic Program Overview?

In othe r words, is there a committee made up of departmental officials who advise the Minister in this regard? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The Strategic Overview Committee that you speak of is made up of all the executive committee within the Government Services , all the ADM's and directors who have submitted this written document we have before us. MR. D. ROCAN: Dealing with the publication of brochures which relate to the department's operations , is the printing of these brochures tendered out, and how much does it cost the department each year to have them printed? HON. H.

HARAPIAK : We do our procuring through the Queen's Printer and they print whatever they can from within , and then som etimes they have to tender out . The total budget for that is $28,000.00 . MR. D. ROCAN: Have new brochures been printe d since this Ministe r assumed office and, if so, what wa~ done with th e br oc hures which had the previou i Minister 's name on them? 3084 s s d

Mond ay, 15 June, 1987 HON. H. HARAPIAK: The only brochures that have been print ed since this Minister has come into office are the EMO brochures, and prior to that there were no br och ures print ed for Emer gency Measures Organization. MR. D. ROCAN: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (c)( 1)-p ass; 1. (c)(2)-pass. 1. (d)

(1) Finance and Budgets: Salaries - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Thank you, Mr . Chairman. What type of financial information does this

section of the department provide in the preparation of the Estimates? HON. H. HARAPIAK: They do all of the financial data for the SPO's, they do all the details of the Estima tes and the session books and annual Public Accounts information, the monthly expenditures, they monitor flood control and emergency expenditures, and they establish standards for budgeting and forecas ting, and as we continue to automate our process, they are involved in all that. MR. D.

ROCAN: The Salaries - $672,800 - I wonder if the Minister could indicate how many SY's or PMO's, like what kind of staff do we have here under Finance and Budgets? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Are you re ferring to the Emergency Measures Organization or Finance and . MR. D. ROCAN: Finance and Budgets. HON. H. HARAPIAK: There are 22 people in the financial part of it and they do the financial work for all of th e departme nt, including the Emergenc y Measures Organization, so I couldn't break it out as to how many are dealing with the Emergency Measures. It's all th rown in as one; they deal with it as one department. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I'd just like to inform the members that there's no smoking in this room. I think they're aware of that. Would you move to the back of the hall, please? Thank you. The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Okay, 1. (d)( 1) -p ass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (d)( 1) -p ass; 1. (d)(2)- pass. 1. (e)( 1) Human Resource Services: Salaries - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Are there guidelines established for those within the department who deal with labour relations - staff relation services? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We do the human relations . MR. D. ROCAN: I'm sorry, I didn't hear. 3085 HON. H.

HARAPIAK: We deal with the human relations but we work under the guidelines of the Civil Service Commission. They establish the guidelin es for labour relations. MR. D. ROCAN: If an emp loyee isn't satisfied with the results after speaking to those involv ed with dealing with labour relation issues, is there the availability for appeal, and if so, who do they appeal to? HON. H. HARAPIAK: There are several levels for handling it.

The first level is they go to their immediate supervis or, and if they're not satisfied with that, they go to their ADM; the next level is the Deputy Minister, and they could go to arbitration, but they can also go to the Civil Service Commission at any one of those steps. MR. D. ROCAN: Could the Minister indicate who establishes staffing policies and procedure then? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Could you repeat that, please? MR. D. ROCAN: Who established staf fing policies and procedure? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The Civil Service Commission established the guidelines and they also monitor how we carry out our respon sibilities.

MR. D. ROCAN: Is the Minister advised of any changes that do occur? HON. H. HARAPIAK: When changes occur, there are several changes that are happening because of the cutbacks and, yes, I'm advised as the changes occur. MR. D. ROCAN: I wonder if the Minister could tell us how many information sessions have been held to assist the staff of the department in advancing their technical and supervisory management skills? HON. H. HARAPIAK: There's an in-house staff training and development program with 30 offerings, involving 330 staff and approximately 34 training days.

There are informational sessions to assist staff members to advance their technical and supervisory management skills, and they'v e also revised the Ma nagement Performance Appraisal System. It's inte grated with training and development programs. MR. D. ROCAN: Could the Minister tell us where these were held? HON. H. HARAPIAK: There are several areas that they're held at. Some are held on site, some are held within the Civil Service Commission and some are held in areas outside of the city, and some of the human relations exercises, I guess, are contr acted out to some people. MR. D.

ROCAN: Did you say the attendanc e was what, between 300 and 340? HON. H. HARAPIAK: 330.

Monday, 15 June, 1987 MR. D. ROCAN: 330 - ok ay. How many are planned for this year? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Those were the plans for this year that I had referred to. I guess over the past year there were 296, and then the 330 is for the coming year. MR. D. ROCAN: Is there room for feedback from the emp loyees on how worthwhile these sessions are? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: There is an evaluation sheet or evaluation session held at the end of every session where people give us an indication if they are pleased with the presentations that are held or if they have been helpful in any way, and people are fairly straightfor ward in their assessm ents. MR. D. ROCAN: Ha s the department done a comprehensive analysis that, since these sessions have started, they have accomplished the desired effect ? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I guess a comprehensive analysis has not been carried out, but th ey do see an improvement in the labour-relations field and an impro vement in the relationship between staff and all the emplo yees in their areas. MR. D. ROCAN: Who developed the program for these sessi ons? HON. H. HARAPIAK: For the Estimates Session or for the Human Relations? MR. D. ROCAN: Right. HON. H. HARAPIAK: I wonder if we can get the speaker - we're having difficulty hearing your voice, Mr . Rocan, if we can get you to speak directly into the . MR. D. ROCAN: Happy now? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: No, seriously we are having problems hearing. MR. D. ROCAN: Harry can hear me, the staff can't. HON. H. HARAPIAK: There was an in-house training session developed by Catherine Tapp. She developed the courses along with the Civil Service Commission. MR. D. ROCAN: I notice there's what they call this Affirmative Action Target Group. Who is in this target group? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The groups involved in Affirmative Action were Natives, women, visible minorities and the physically handicapped. We have met or exceeded our goals in thr ee of the four areas.

The only area we have not met our goal was in the area of the physically handicapped emplo yees. MR. D. ROCAN: How was this ta rget group established? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The Civil Service Commission, in conjunction with the MGEA, were the groups involved with establishing the Affirmative Action targets and groups. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (e)(1 )-pass; 1. (e)(2)-pass. 1. (

f) Systems:

(1) Salaries - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: The salaries, $252, 700, how many SY's and what kind of staff are we looking at here? HON. H. HARAPIAK: There are seven staff in this area: the Systems area. MR. D. ROCAN: Are we using an HP-3000 system yet? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, I am advised that we are using the HP-3000. MR. D. ROCAN: How long have we been using that HP-3000 or 300, whatever it's called? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We pu rchased it approximately thr ee years ago. We have had it operating for two years at this time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Rus sel l. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr .

Minister, I'm just wondering where we can address the questions regarding the telephone service rate here in this building. Which

section does that fall under? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Under Plant Services. We 're quite a ways away from there yet. HON. L. DERKACH: Okay, what appropriation is that under? What

section is that under? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Telecommunications, 3.(f). MR. L. DERKACH: Ok ay, thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: They've got under Expected Results here, they've go t: "o n-going maint enance and enhancements for existing sys tems." In our caucus room, the computer system that we have, do we have to pay for our own ongoing maintena nce there? Or is this picked up by the Government Services also? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The Conservative caucus would be charged for their maintenance, the sarrie as any other department is.

We are a service department, but we also charge the departments for it. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (f)(1)-p ass; 1. (f)(2)-pass. We are now done with Administration, except the Minister's Salary. We are now in Appr opri ation No. 2., Property Management, (a)( 1) Salaries, Executive Administration - the Mem ber for Turtle Mountain. 3086

Monday, 15 June, 1987 MR. D. ROCAN: Under Executive Administration, what kind of staff are we looking at here now? MR. CHAIRMAN: Wo uld the Me mber for Turtle Mountain repeat his question? The Minister didn't get it. MR. D. ROCAN: I was just wondering, under Executive Administration here, how many staffpeople are we looking at here? HON. H. HARAPIAK: There are 11. 5 staffp eople in Fxecutive Administration. MR. D. ROCAN: Can the Minister advise what stage we are at with the dec entr alized budgeting and accou nting, which is indicated in the Supplementa ry Information to be going to the field location? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I'm sor ry, I didn't hear you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain does not seem to be coming through. Maybe if you put it in this direction and your voice will project towards us, rather than away from us. Just face us a bit and maybe you might be . . MR. D. ROCAN: I wonder, could the Minister advise what stage we are at with the decent ralized budgeting and acc ounting, which is indicated in the Supplementary Information to be going to the field location? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I'm advised that the building managers are doing their own budgeting this time, so it's based on their experience.

So the building managers are doing their own budgeting, based on guidelines that were established by the Executive Administration. MR. D. ROCAN: Where are the field locations? HON. H. HARAPIAK: They are located in 16 locations thr oughout the province, but the main locations are Winnipeg, Brandon, Portage, Selkirk and The Pas. MR. D. ROCAN: And the other dozen are where? HON. H. HARAPIAK: It's within the city: two at Red River Co mmunity College, one at Selkirk, one at Dufferin, one is at Fort Osborne, one at Central Power. So they're scattered throughout the city. MR. D.

ROCAN: Does the department notice, since its decentral izat ion, an increa se in the fiscal responsibility which, I bel ieve, was the desired resu lt? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, they're definitely more aware of what is going on. They've had the desired effe cts. MR. D. ROCAN: Who develops the guidelines or the directives which deal with property administration? HON. H. HARAPIAK: It depends on the level that you are wanting to talk about. Some of it is developed by the Treasury Board, some are developed by management and some are developed by staff. MR. D. ROCAN: The one for staff, the guidelines for staff. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I'm advised by staff that it depends on the type of the building you're dealing with. An office building would have a different square footage required than the Legislative Building, for instance. It depends on the type of building and type of traffic there is coming through that building. MR. D. ROCAN: Is the Minister advised when changes are made to these guideli nes? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I guess there are continuous changes going on every day. They're trying to work as cost efficiently as they possi bly can and work to maintain a clean building.

The Minister is not informed of those decisions but, if it's some major decision, then the Minister is informed of it. MR. D. ROCAN: How often are they reviewed and by whom? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The staffing levels are reviewed every year at budget time and there's a total view of all the different staffing requirements at that time. If you're concerned about any specific area, we'll do an indepth study . If there is some concern about a specific area, there will be an indepth study to deal with any specific area tha t is of concern. MR. D.

ROCAN: Is there another review planned, or is that going to wait until this time next year again? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We are presently starting our process for our next year's budget at this time. As soon as that new budget process starts, then there is a review going on. MR. D. ROCAN: When was the last comprehensive review done by the department on the level of quality of service, delivery to the public? HON. H. HARAPIAK: In my opening statement, I made comments about doing a comp rehensive review and it was dealing with our clients which has very little to do with the public.

It's with the departments that we serve. MR. D. ROCAN: You talk about you're opening statement, were there any suggestions made for impr ovement on delivery of service? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, there were some suggestions made for impr ovement, but generall y there was satisfact ion. As I indicated, there was a very high satisfact ion rate amongst people who took

part in the su rvey. MR. D. ROCAN: We re there any major complaints on how the department was handling themselves? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I'll read from the information we've got. They said there was a favourable impression for Government Services as a whole, with 94 percent 3087

Monday, 15 June, 1987 of the respondents indicating the services were acceptable to very good. Only one person thought the services were very poor. Though there were many other positive comments offered , it is appropria tely pointed out that we intend to act on and emp hasize with this report. The majority of the respondent s said th at the department services are easy to obtain, with 7 percent saying all services are easy to get. MR. D. ROCAN: Okay, we'll pass (1) and (2). MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)( 1 )-pass; 2.(a)(2)- pass. 2.(b)( 1) Physical Plant: Salaries - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D.

ROCAN: In the Supplementary they have Activity Identification. They have four district offices. Where are these four district offices in the province? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The Pas, Red River Community College, Brandon and Winnipeg. MR. D. ROCAN: Sorr y, would you repeat that, please? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Winnipeg, Brandon, Red River Community College and The Pas. MR. D. ROCAN: Are there any government grounds not taken care of by this depa rtment? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I am advised that there are some government properties that are not looked after by this department.

Some of them are in the Department of Nat ur al Resources, some are the Agriculture Depart ment, Hig hways Depar tment and the comm issions, like the Arts Centre and the Health Services Commi ssi on. We do not look after their properties. MR. D. ROCAN: Do we tender these out then, or what do we do with them? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, I' m advised we do tender out some of the ones we do not look after ourselves. MR. D. ROCAN: Could you repeat that, please? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, we do tender out the ones we do not look after ourselves. MR. D. ROCAN: If we tender these out, at what cost do we tender these out then?

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: The Minister. HON. H. HARAPIAK: The area we do tender out is the janitorial, in some areas, cate ring, the elevator maintenance, refuse removal, air refrigeration, window clea ning, portable fire extinguishers, fire alarm syste ms, kitchen extinguishing systems and pest controls. We're looking up the information at just what the costs are. We haven't got that figure right now. MR. D. ROCAN: Which government buildings receive this service, the janitorial service? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: During the fiscal year of '86-87, there's the Century Plaza, the Westgrove Mall, Department of Agriculture in Teulon, the Taylor Building, the Manitoba Building on Osborne, 19 70 Ness, 1360 St. Matth ews, the Hangar T4 on Ferry Road, 19 81 Portage and the Municipal Building in Swan River. We also have some carpet cleaning which we contra cted out. That was in the Manitoba Youth Centre and 11 4 Garry Street. I'm advised th at we've reduced our outside contracting by better uti lization of our in-house staff.

We have saved over $200,000 in the last two years by making full uti lization of our in-house staff. MR. D. ROCAN: All the se buildings that you were just listing off there, those are all government- owned buildings, or are some of those buildings that we lease? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Some are owned and some are leased. MR. D. ROCAN: Which ones are government-owned? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The only one of the contracts that I read off that we own is the Memorial Park washroom and the Manitoba Building at 270 Osborne. The rest are all leased. MR. D.

ROCAN: Are there guidelines in place from the department as to how contracts are tendered out? Could you provide us with copies of these if you still have them? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, there are guidelines. The notices of tender , all services required for the public are advertised twice, with notice of tender being advertised in the local newspaper. In Winnipeg, the Winnipeg Free Press is util ized and the standard night for advert ising is Saturday's paper. We can also advertise in Brandon in the Brandon Sun.

The tender period is for a minimum period of two weeks and elevator maintenance and catering tenders have a minimum period of 30 days. All tenders are open publ icly, with the exception of catering. The duration of contracts are usually for a two-year period with the exception of catering which is for a th ree-year period. Refuse removal is for a th ree-year period; fire alarm systems for a five-year perio d; el evator maintenance is for a five-year period; and generator maintenance is also for a five-year period. MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I'd like to remind the members that smoking is not allowed at the committee meeting. The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Are any of these tenders done over the telephone? HON. H. HARAPIAK: No, I'm advised that none of the contracts are accepted by telephone. MR. D. ROCAN: Will the Minister table a copy of the guidelines? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, we can do that. Maybe we could get you a whole tender package and give you 3088

Mond ay, 15 June, 1987 a copy of our entire tender process. We 'll get you a copy of that. MR. D. ROCAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(1 )-pass; 2.(a)(2)­ pass. We are now on Physical Plant, 2.(b) ( 1) , (2), (3) and (4)-pass. The next is 2.(

c) Workshop/Renovations - Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: You went scooting by all these, Mr . Deputy Chairman. I had some more questions. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Okay, Well, we can go back. MR. D. ROCAN: All right, back up then. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Sure, go ahead. MR. D. ROCAN: What impr ovements have been made in workplace safety by the department in the physical plant? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We have carried out the policy dealing with hard-hats, in cooperation with the MGEA. We have carried out a policy with electrical safety and a policy dealing with safety shoes.

Also, we've carried out a policy dealing with hearing impairment. MR. D. ROCAN: Was this done in cooperation with the Department of Workplace Safety and Health? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, we are always under the guidance of Workplace Safety and Health. MR. D. ROCAN: I wonder, could the Minister tell us if any of our government buildings - seeing as how old they are - have any of them any asbestos yet? Have we still got some asbestos in some of them? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, some of our buildings have asbestos covering the pipes, but they are all covered up and coated with the required acceptable material.

We are complying with The Workpla ce Safety and Health Act in all instances. MR. D. ROCAN: Under Expected Results, you have: "Increased cost effec tiveness of janitorial services, improvements with respect to Workplace Safety and Health and environmental concerns . . . MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, can the member speak up or face this way maybe. MR. D. ROCAN: Under Expected Results, you have: "Increased cost effectiveness of janitorial services, improvements with respect to Workplace Safety and Health and environmental concerns ... " What are some of the se environmental concerns? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I guess one of the areas is indoor air quali ty, the air movement and sidestream smoke, which I'm sure the Member for Turtle Mountain would be very inter ested in. MR. D. ROCAN: In the Annual Report, we see that the department is supplied with gas by the Inter-City Gas Corporation on an interruptible basis in accordance with the Sup ply Agree ment. The gas company interrupted its supply of natural gas at peak periods, requiring the department to use ultima te and more expensive fuel. In 1985-86, gas supply was interrupted for one day only, rather than the estimated 22 days.

This resulted in an underexpenditure. Minor savings were also realized in operating supplies, light and power, water and sewer repairs and maintenance. Does the department foresee any problems getting out of the Sup ply Agreement with ICG after the Provincial Government takes it over? HON. H. HARAPIAK: None whatsoever. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain with more wonderful questions. MR. D. ROCAN: Will the department be negotiating a new agreement with the Manitoba Consumers Gas Corporation, and will this be at a lower cost than the department is paying now? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: We are in prelimina ry discussions at this time and we don't antici pate any problems. MR. D. ROCAN: Also, under Expected Results, they have, " ... security through automated sys tems." Is there a program in place to improve security now in the government buildings? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, we are looking at automating security. MR. D. ROCAN: Under Expected Results, they have all this additional cleaning that they're doing, 8,000 square meters. What are these innovative adjustments or cleaning techniques? They must have got a big one. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: There were savings of approximately of $36,000 that were realized in the 19 86- 87 year, by not renewing the cont racts with private cleaning firms. These savings were achie ved by continued introduction of the following policy - day cleaning, with the introduction of day-cleaning staff are more content, more productive, and have much less absenteeism than previous evening shifts. And the new equipment and materials have been utilized, which reduce labour and improve their appearance.

Coupled with that, there's an increase in efficie ncy, having impr oved considerab ly, and there's been some job sharing. There's more staff to be utilized during the early morning hours when productivity is the highest. There's also been some job training. These impr oved programs used over the last several years have made a noticeable impr ovement in super visory skills of first- line staff. · Also, there's been a reduction in service schedules in some areas, such as individual office areas and boardrooms, which have resulted in fewer complaints.

We have also received many compliments on this elective cleaning schedule. 3089

Monday, 15 June, 1987 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Under Physical Plant here also, can the Minister tell us, is there a certain cut-off time for heat , per se, to this building? We know it was 75-80 above outside not that long ago and the heat was still coming through the building . HON. H. HARAPIAK: Because of the type of heating system we have with steam lines required, it takes up to three days to allow for the expansion and contraction of the pipe .

So during the spring and the fall when there's a quick change in outside temperature, we have difficulties with the heat in the Legislative Building because it can't be shut down very quickly because of the type of system we have . MR. D. ROCAN: Is this where we talk about air conditioners , under Physical Plant here? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Sure. MR. D. ROCAN: Can the Minister tell us - I remember in LAMC when they were talking about moving their caucus office across and they were saying also at that time that room would have air conditioning. Does it have air conditioning or just air movement? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: The Tory caucus office does have air conditioning . A MEMBER: What? MR. D. ROCAN: When are you going to turn it on? HON. H. HARAPIAK: No, that office was air conditioned before they renovated . If there's some difficulties and if it's not working - I was informed today that your caucus members are opening windows, so there 's obviously . . . MRS. G. HAMMOND: We didn't know we had air conditioning. HON. H. HARAPIAK: You didn't know you had air conditioning? Well, then somebody will be over from staff to make sure that the air conditioning . . . Maybe we could swap offices at this time.

We'll have someone over to make sure that the air conditioning is working. MR. D. ROCAN: When this Minister assumed his new portfolio and he moved into the old caucus office, did he not instruct staff to put in air conditioning in his office? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Our caucus . MR. D. ROCAN: No, your office . HON. H. HARAPIAK: Our caucus office is being done, but it is not completely hooked up at this time . My office is not air conditioned. There has been a story going around that I instructed staff to air condition my office . I wish I would have, but I did not. All we have is air movement in there .

We do not have air conditioning in the Min ister of Governme nt Services Office . MR. D. ROCAN: The two compressors then , on the roof of the building directly above the Minister 's Office, and the pipes leading down through his office , does that not go into the Minister 's Office, and the Minister of Natural Resources? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I am not really looking after myself and my brother. As the offices are being upgraded , the new air-handling systems are being put in. So when we do find the dollars to bring the chilled water over from the plant , then it will be ready for the air conditioning . MR. D.

ROCAN: Could you tell me then , which offices these two compressors are cooling at the present time? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I'm advised that the Premier 's Office has the air condit ioning, the Tory caucus office, the cafeteria, and the Highways Minister has one because they previously had a Minister of Labour, Mr. Paulley, who had health problems and had to have an air conditioner ; and also the Hansard Office has air conditioning because of the high heat level because of the machines, so it was required for them to have an air conditioner as well. MR. D. ROCAN : We'll pass (b)(1), (2) and (3). MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park . MRS. G. HAMMOND: Before we pass that , the rent on the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, their offices and the Women's Directorate, does that come under leased properties? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, it does. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(c)

(1) Salaries , Workshop and Renovations - the Member for Turtle Mountain . MR. D. ROCAN: Under Workshops and Renovations, we see the Objectives are : "To provide an in-house construction and renovation program for government­ owned and leased accommodations in a cost effective and timely manner." Does this

section do any work for MPI? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, we do. MR. D. ROCAN: Expected Results. We see: "Provision of service in response to approximately 1,500 annual requests from client departments." How many were fulfilled? HON. H. HARAPIAK: They are all fulfilled . If we canno t fulfill it with in-house people, then we will go to outside sub-contractors , but they are all fulfilled . MR. D. ROCAN: Is there any cri teria established as to how and who will receive maintenance work? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I'm advised that anything under $250 does not have to be tendered ; anything between 3090

Monday, 15 June, 1987 $200 and $500 is a verbal tender; and if it's anything above $500, it has to be tendered, written tenders. MR. D. ROCAN: So you're saying that of the 40 percent of those sub-contr act services, those are tendered out? HON. H. HARAPIAK: That's correct. MR. D. ROCAN: Workshop; give us some of the work that these fellows do. Are they building walls, desks, cupboards? What is some of the work that is done under Workshop? HON. H. HARAPIAK: They are involved with the renovations at the Woodsworth Building, the Norquay Building, the Legislature, and they also renovate the furniture as well. MR. D. ROCAN: We can pass 2.( c)( 1) , (2), (3). MR. CHAIRMAN: We 're now on

Section 2.( d)

(1) Leased Properties, Salaries - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr . Chairman, I know of no particular difference with respect to the salary appropriation in this

section of the Estimates. I assume that that work activity is being carried on by the same work force as previously in place. HON. H. HARAPIAK: That is correct. MR. H. ENNS: Mr . Chairman, through you to the Minister, one of the traditional questions that has to be asked in this regard is to try and get some global picture of the amount of space the government leases. Mr . Chairman, I need not remind the Minister that from time to time, as it happens with any other large landlord, one doesn't always fulfill the exact requests of a client, a client department in this case.

You know, the Archives are full of horror stories about the leasing of thousands of feet of space, sometimes empty, sometimes utilized. Mostly we hear of these stories as they emanate from Ottawa, but nonetheless, let me ask the Minister with the help of his staff: What is the total amount of square feet or meters currently under lease by the government? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Vacant? MR. H. ENNS: Under this appropriation of Other Expenditures, which is the major item in this division. HON. H. HARAPIAK: As of March 31, 1987, we have 2,059,5 84 square feet of lease property. MR. H. ENNS: 2 million? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: 2,059,584 square feet. MR. H. ENNS: Just as a note of interest, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, I wonder if the department is still operating in square feet or have they converted to the law of the land and are now operating in metric measurements? I'm not objecting to the Minister's response. 3091 HON. H. HARAPIAK: We are utilizing both systems. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, in terms of a standing significance of that, has there been a change; for instance, has that increased from last year's leasing requirements of the government? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, there has been an increase of 28,259 square feet.

MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the second part of that question, how many of those 2.5-odd million square feet of space are curr ently being occupied by departments? Really , what I'm asking is, how many are empty? HON. H. HARAPIAK: There are 23,713 square feet vacant at this time, of leased space. Twenty-two thou sand is at 333 Broadway. This space is being prepared for occupancy by the staff of Finance, Treas ury Board, and Executive Council, so it will be occupied short ly. Although it's a five-year lease, the premises officially commenced on January 1, 1987, and the space is presently unoccupied.

Full occupancy is scheduled to be in place by October 1. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, a question that arises is, how has the introduction of Manitoba Properties Inc., which now in effect is the principal landlord - I suppose you could call it that - of a significant portion of the properties. I note from your notes at the bottom of page 8 of your Estimates, that some $59 million of the $75 million that's attributed to the leasing of properties are in fact part of the properties under the jur isdiction of Manitoba Properties Inc. in this government's unique scheme to raise money for various purposes.

My que stion at this point is, has that materially affected the management or the operation by the department of these properties? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I'm advised that it has not had any effect on th e management of the affected properties. MR. H. ENNS: Mr .

Chairman, subject to correction, but my reading of that $59 million figure that we are paying to the investors, the shareholders, the rent that we are paying through that means to the shareholders of Manitoba Properties Inc.- my colleague from across the way probably more accurately describes it as dividends - h!ls the department had an opportunity to monitor the situation from a fiscal point of view? In other words, prior to the establishment of Manitoba Properties Inc., the department had sole responsibility for many of these properties.

Does the $59 million paid in dividends, or rent, or whatever you want to call it, to the shareholders of Manitoba Properties Inc., equal the costs previously incurred by the department in the maintenance and collection of its return on this prope rty, from client departments? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I guess, to begin with, it is a rent. In general, the lease arrangement with Manitoba

Mond ay, 15 June, 1987 Properties Inc. is an absolute or triple net lease. That is, the landlord, which is MPI, has no respo nsibility for the cost of the operation and maintena nce of the building. All building expenses remain the responsibility of the building user, that is, Manitoba Government Services and the University of Manitoba, or the Manitoba Health Services Commi ssion, or th e Liquor Control Commission. The term of lease is 99 years, with rents payable quarter ly. MR. H. EN NS: Mr .

Ch airman, I'm just trying to under stand this a little better, because it seems to me that we now have a double set of shareholders to be concerned with. Estimates tell us tha t thos e who invest in Manitoba Properties Inc. are ge tting $59 mill ion for their investment. But the rest of us - all of us Manitobans - we are still very much interested in these buildings and are, in fact, the users of these buildings, as the Minister just sai d, and continue to supply the maintenance and renovations and other ongoing charges that are associated with the occupying of commercial office space.

What I'm trying to determine is, which shareholder is getting best served out of this arrangement? We know the Manitoba Properties Inc. people are getting their return. Obviously, it is attractive in terms of the marketplace today, or else they would not have invested as eagerly as they did. But when the Minister tells me that the department is still totally respon sible for the ongoing maintenance, ongoing renovations, or changes to the department, I'm not tr ying to speak - Mr .

Ch airman, do you understand this - for the shareholders tha t you and I represent, mainly the Manitoba taxpayers, I'm trying to figure out whether or not this department - never mind the concerns of the Department of Finance, because the Department of Finance, the Minister of Finance has different problems than this Minister. This Minister has enough problems; I don't even want to burden him with them. We are going to get to the other problems that he has with the Workers Compensation Board and so forth, like that.

Right now, he is trying to manage several million feet of space, along with the other millions of feet of space that he has direct control over. What I'm trying to figure out is how do we, as taxpaying shareholder s, come out on this arrangement after we've satisfied the wants of the Minister of Finance, who's gotten his pile of money out of it and whom we're paying $59 million every year to retain those funds?

This Minister and this capable staff has to continue to come to the Treasury Board and ask for the necessary monies to maintain, operate, renovate, and run these properties because, as the Minister said, for those investors in Manitoba Properties Inc .• it's a real clean, sweetheart deal. They have no worry about toilets tha t leak, faucets that don't run, or a roof that sometimes isn't altogether waterproof. You and I have to do that. More importantl y, we have to pick up the tab for it. I'm trying to find out how the department manages this. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I guess the first qu estion you ask is really who owns Manitoba Properties? I guess the common shares of Manitoba Properties, Inc. are owned by 50 percent each by Manitoba Properties Management, Inc. and Manitoba Properties Lea sing, Inc. The common shares of each of these corporations are in turn owned 100 percent by Her Majesty the Queen in right of the Province of Manitoba. So, how we account for if the taxpa yers are getting a good deal for the way we are leasing the properties - the lease that we pay is comparable to any lease we would pay to any outside group that had a building to lease. MR. H.

ENNS: The Minister poses an interesting question. Who does own Manitoba Properties, Inc. Who gets the $59 million? Are they principally Manitoba investors, Canadian investors, American investors? Mr . Conrad Black? Does the department maintain an up­ to-date listing of the investors who are , in fact, getting this $59 million of Canadian tax money for having invested in the paper transfer of the assets of these buildings, whom we are now paying an annual rental rate of some $60 million? HON. H. HARAPIAK: To begin with, the $59 million that the member refers to is not revenue to the shareholders.

That $59 million is rent that is paid to MPI. MR. H. ENNS: Well, ok ay, Mr. Chairman. And what does MPI do with the $59 million? You would understand this, Mr. Chairman, if you pay $1 5,000 rent to somebody for an extra quarter

section of land or maybe for the use of a machinery shed from your farming operations, you would know who you were paying it to and what for. I just want the Chairman to understand that I'm asking these straig htforward questions because I would like to be able to know who is the current owner of the Liquor Commission in Beausejour and who are we paying the rent to, which is part of the $59 million? Or, I'd like to be able to tell my student constituents who exactly owns the Fort Garry campus, the University of Manitoba and who are we paying the rent to every month?

Which address in New York, or in Chicago, or in New Orleans, are we sending the money to every month? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The lease payments made by Government Services to Manitoba Properties become revenue to the corporation. I would assu me, as in the private sector , that MPl's receipts from Manitoba Government Services would support and be applied to debt servicing and any other debt of the property that they pertain to. But you ask who are the property owners. We don't have that list of property owners. Those property owners are listed with Royal Trust.

So, I guess in order to find that out you would have to become a property owner, buy a share, and then you could get that information. I should say a preferred shareholder , rather than property owner. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I won't pursue the point much lon ger, but is the Minister really telling me that the government doesn't know the distribution of the shares tha t were purchased in Manitoba Properties Inc.? I don't want him to be playing games here. I'm trying 3092

Monday, 15 June, 1987 to get a reasonable - I'm not asking for names. I'm asking for some idea of whether it is a Canada-wide subscrip tion to tha t dr ive or whether it attracted substantial off-shore or foreign - I would suspect, mainly American - interests, or whether or not it was principally Manitoba interests. Relativ ely, you know, approxima te percentage terms would satisfy my terms, if it was Manitoba investors. That's the only question I'm asking. HON. H. HARAPIAK: I believe that it was shared during the Minister of Finance's Estimates.

He indicated the information is not kept by the government, but by the tr ust com pany acting as an agent for Manitoba Properties. So the Minister of Finance may have that information through the trust company , but Manitoba Government Services certainly wouldn't have a list of those investors who are preferred shareholders. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kildonan. MR. M. DOLIN: The Member for Lakeside brings up some interesting questions, and perhaps I'd like to pursue this a little bit more. My understan ding is th at the rent is paid by Government Services to MPI.

MPI is a corporation controlled by the people of Manitoba, who own the only voting shares. The shares that were sold are listed on the market as non-voting, preferred shares, which have no voting rights and no say whatsoever in the operations of the company or in any of the policies or in the upke ep of the building, mai ntenance, or disposition of assets. It is only the common shares, which are held by the Provincial Government, have that. That's my unde rsta nding. Is tha t the Minister's understand ing? HON. H. HARAPIAK: That's correct. MR. M.

DOLIN: It is also my understanding that the preferred shares for about $200 million were issued at "X" percent dividends, as opposed to the government going out and borrowing on the market for needs at "X-plus-2" percent, or "X-plus-3" percent, saving a su bstantial amount of money. The $59 million paid in rent by Government Services for those buildings is less than the amount we would have been paying on inte rest on equivalent borrowing if we would have gone to the open market. Is my understanding of that correct? HON. H. HARAPIAK: That's correct. MR. M.

DOLIN: So I think, when the Member for Lakeside says who owns the propert y, it's still the people of Manitoba from what the Minister's sa ying, who own MP I totally because the common shares, which are the only voting shares which can dispose of the property or do anything with the prope rty, are held by the Government of Manitoba as representative of the people of Manitoba. Now, that's my understanding. Preferred shares are non-voting and have absolutely no say in the disposition of any of the assets of MPI. Is that correct? HON. H. HARAPIAK: That is correct. 3093 MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: You have a tremendous understanding of it, and I wish that you would get together with the Member for Lakeside. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: I want to put on the record that I appreciate my colleague from Concordia . HON. H. HARAPIAK: Kildonan. MR. H. ENNS: ... from Kildonan's assistance in this matter. I will make it a point of reading that explanation to the next annual meeting of the Rockwood Agricultural Society, and I'm sure they'll have a full appreciation of just how straigh tforward and simple this government now operates and manages these properties.

For those of us who, I suppose, lead a simpler life, Mr. Minister, it does become a little complic ated. Mr. Chairman, a further question to the Honourable Minist er. Is there any contemplation on the part of the government - I appreciate that again this question may be more appropriately directed to the Minister of Finance. But insofar as the Minister responsible for the buildings that could be so considered, my question is: Is there any current consideration being given to expanding the list of properties currently leased out or owned by Manitoba Properties Inc.? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: We are, at this tim e, not contemplating taking over any existing space or pur chasing any existing space. We may be moving to pu rchase more or construct more properties, through the construction process. MR. H. ENNS: Mr . Chairman, in the same line, I'm intere sted from a point of view as a member who once was privileged to be Minister of Government Services. I recall the difficulties that, I suppose, any Minister has from time to time of convincing his colle agues on Treas ury Board or indeed Cabinet to get the necessary financing to respond to the urgent requests of clients, client departments.

Has the innovation of an introduction of Manitoba Properties Inc. made that task easier? By that, I mean is, if you 'r e contemplating respo nding to a client department's request for an additional $5 million office tower, has that option of putting that on the market with Manitoba Properties Inc. changed the procedure in terms of authorization of building public buildi ngs? Has that changed in any way? HON. H. HARAPIAK: It gives us an additional option, but still the whole capital funding is looked at as a whole.

We still have to go through the regular process of justifying any added expenditures that are required. MR. H. ENNS: I think, Mr . Chairman, what the Minister is really trying to tell me - and because he is too polite to say it forthright ly, I'll do it for him - is that, if any expansion into Manitoba Properties Inc. should take place, he and this department wouldn't be the recipient of it. The Minister of Finance would be, and they'd use

Mond ay, 15 June, 1987 it for other nefarious reasons. In that case, it would not make his job any easier. HON. H. HARAPIAK: MPI would be used to fund the development projects. For instance, the Remand Centre may be funded through MPI. MR. H. ENNS: Has MPI been so used for any expansion or major renovation to date? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: These are some of the ones through MPI: the Law Courts Building; the Land Titles renovations; the MDC Physical Activity Plant in Portage; 210 Osborne renovations; and again Portage la Prairie, the Southg rove renovations; in the Parklands region, the Regional Training Centre; and Red River Community College, the machine shop renovations; in Flin Flon, the new provincial building; the W.M. Ward lab, and also some work on the Selkirk psychiatric institution. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, in conclusion, you know that last answer is a worrisome one.

I, of course, recognize many of the projects as projects that were initiated years ago for which capital authority had been granted by the Legislat ur e to the departments, principally the Law Courts Building and some of the other buildings that he mentions. I gather what has taken place, Mr.

Chairman, is that authority was used for whatever other pu rposes the government chose, and the cost of the buildings have been proceeded under th e funding arrangements with Ma nitoba Properties, Inc., which in my judgment really distorts the capital out lay of this government in the provision of building space, appreciably alters the debt and deficit position of this gover nment, and it is all being conveniently put under the title of a $59-million dividend payment or rent payment to Manitoba Properties Inc., which puts us further away from determining what, in fact, this government has obliga ted itself to in terms of public expenditures.

If monies allocated to specific projects such as the impr ovements to the Land Titles Building, construction of the new Law Courts building which, quite frank ly, Mr. Minister, I had the privilege of authorizing - and I fought through the Treasury Board the necessary $12 million author ity to build the building. Now you're telling me that a substantial portion of that, half of it or all of it, has found financing elsewhere, my question to you is: What has the government done with the $12 million authority that was gr anted the department to build buildings like that and others? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I guess there are two parts to your question. You were saying that, under your tenure as Minister, you had authori zed $12 million. As any other program, it was for one fiscal year. If that money is not spent, it lapses. On this, you say they're not accou ntable. We want to tell you that, at the time the Minister tables The Loan Act in the Legislature, he is in a position to clearly outline any loan authority required with respect to the buildings of major renovations or capital . . .- (inaudible)- Related authority may be specified on a project-by-project basis.

This information is available in a review of the Legislature on a year­ to-year basis. So, it is just as accountable as it is on the other area. When it comes with The Loan Act Auth ority , it has to be justified at that time. MR. H. ENNS: Well, Mr . Chairman, I'm having difficulty understanding this. I can appreciate the Minister of Finance tabling, as he does, different schedules (

a) and (

b) of Loan Authority for Crown corporations for any other capital borrowing projects, includin g those requirements of this department. But how do you mix that in with - the earlier question was that Manitoba Properties Inc. are attract ing new investors, are financing, renovations, financing buildings currently under construction by the department. How do monies flowing in from unknown, to us at least, investors, excepting that they come under a trust, or whoever's managing the holding and funding corporations. But surely those figures don't show up in any of our table of capital requests in the Legislature.

HON. H. HARAPIAK: For one thing there is no more preferred shares being sold, so whatever shares are there presently has come to the Legislative Building under the Loan Act, and the Legislature has clearly outlined the plans for the dollars that were brought forward at that time. MR. H. ENNS: But, Mr. Chairman, the Minister just told me a little while ago that Manitoba Properties, Inc. is being used. I don't care .. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Under the dollars that were brought forward at that time. MPI takes out a loan from the government. MR. H.

ENNS: The Minister's figures on this are as confusing as his are on the Workers Compensation Board which we will do in a little while. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour is ten o'clock. Is it the wish of the committee to adjourn, to rise? A MEMBER: Do you want to keep going? A MEMBER: Keep going. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I have a question on the number of square feet and the rental on the Advisory Council on the Status of Women and the Women's Directorate, the office space that the y lease. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: We'd like to take that as notice and get back to you on the specific details of that question. We'd like to take that as notice and get back to you on that request for information. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, I'd like to know what would be the total cost if the government supplies typewriters or any of the equipment, whatever they supply to those particular offices? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Could we get the name right, again? 3094

Mond ay, 15 June, 1987 MRS. G. HAMMOND: It's the offices of the Advisory Council on the Status of Women and the Women's Directorate. They're on Portage Avenue, I don't know the address. HON. H. HARAPIAK: We will get that information for you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Ju st a couple of questions concerning parking. I know a little bit about parking and I know the Minister knows a lot more about parking than anybody else in this room.

I wonder whether the Minister can advise how many parking spaces come under the control of Manitoba Properties, Inc. and whether they are land -based , surface-level parking spaces; whether they are parking garage spaces. What is the value of those and are we generating any revenue from them? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We haven't got that information right now, we'll have to dig it out. I'll tell you right now we haven't got enough space. We are doing a study right now to see if we can move toward pay parking and we should have an agreement on that very short ly. MR. A. KOVNATS: Another study.

You know, I' ve always condemned this government for, you know, we're taking it under advisement, we're having a study, we get the same answers from every department. I thought this Minister would be more aware of parking and parking structures. I guess I'd given him more credit then really was coming. HON. H. HARAPIAK: I should maybe tell you, we have 1, 108 parking spots; 649 are assigned, and 459 are scramble parking. MR. A. KOVNATS: 1, 108, okay. I have asked questions on it before. Can the Minister advise how many are surface level and how many are parkade-type spaces? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: There's a lot underground which is in the new courts building - 87 are underground. MR. A. KOVNATS: How many above ground do we have? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The balance would be above ground. MR. A. KOVNATS: No parking structures? HON. H. HARAPIAK: In some of our leased facilities there is assigned parking that is part of the lease in underground facilities. We don't have those figures here. MR. A. KOVNATS: Is the Minister saying we are generating revenue from some of them, or are the spaces given out gratis to empl oyees, to anybody that applies for them? By what consideration does one get a parking space?

HON. H. HARAPIAK: We are not generating any revenue. We are looking at the whole parking difficulty, especially in the Legislative grounds, because there is a lack of parking facilities, especially for the visitors. We feel that the Legislative building is a very big part of our tourism indust ry, it is difficult having enough spaces for the people who are coming in to view this central part of the province. We 're looking at ways to alleviate this but, at this time, we don't have an answer.

It's going to have to be a parking facility built by Government Services, I guess, and we haven 't got the information at this time. MR. A. KOVNATS: It appears that the government doesn't really have any parking facilities. There is surface level and underground, but a parking facility to handle the tourist trade would be an immense building I would think, and it would kind of take away the aesthetic look of the area. This is a beautiful area. I don't think that you could possibly go underground around this particular location.

Can the Minister advise whether it's his department that are looking at the report, checking into. Is it his depa rtment, or have we brought in any outside observers, or any outside people that appear to know more about parking facilities than the ones that we might have that working for the government at this time? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We should share with you that it's extremely expensive by putting in an underground facility. We've had estimates done; it's $1 4,000 a stall. I guess that's completely out of range. We are looking at some other options, a parkade.

We were looking at the options of building a parkade in some of the existing surface lots on Kennedy Street. We also have another site on York Avenue, south of the Convention Centre. Both of these sites are large enough to accommodate a parking structure, but we want to be doing it in conjunction with a building of some sort, and we're not in a position to proceed on a building at this time. MR. A. KOVNATS: $1 4,000 a stall seems to be pretty expensive. I would think that the Minister's figure is a little padded. It's more than what I would pay. I think that I would get the most economical one.

It's a lot cheaper if you were to put some sort of a structure over top and you're going to have to build a garage or basement anyway, so then it's very fea sible. But if you were just going to build a parking structure, you wouldn't go underground; you would start at surface level and build up and it would be nowhere near $1 4,000.00. Where did the Minister get the $1 4,000 figure? HON. H. HARAPIAK: That is the figure for underground parking. To get an undergr6und facility built, that would cost you $14 ,000 a unit. MR. A.

KOVNATS: But you wouldn't buil d jus t underground just for the sake of building undergrou nd, you would build a structure. I think the recommendations would be to start at surface level and build up, rather than to pay this kind of money, because I wouldn't author ize it and I would condemn anybody else who did. 3095

Monday, 15 June, 1987 Is there any parking spaces that are generating any revenue for the people of the Province of Manitoba? HON. H. HARAPIAK: No, there is not any revenue being generated by parking spaces. MR. A. KOVNATS: What's the criteria in allocating parking spaces to people? HON. H. HARAPIAK: have some additional information th at we are generating revenue at community colleges. MR. A. KOVNATS: The students have lots of mone y, and that's the ones you want to charge? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The parking at the Legislative grounds is assigned to departments. They make the decisions as to who gets the parking. MR.

A. KOVNATS: Is there any preference given to anybody around the Legislative grounds; and what happens to the revenue at the community colleges? HON. H. HARAPIAK: At the Legislative grounds, they are priorized by assigned governmen t-owned leased vehicles. Second in the pr iority is handicapped emplo yees; third is visitors; and next is privately owned vehicles regularly used on government business, and then government emplo yees, on a scramble basis. MR. A. KOVNATS: What happens to the revenue at community colleges? HON. H. HARAPIAK: It goes into General Revenue of the government. MR. A.

KOVNATS: Are the revenues that come out of parking at community colleges audited the same way as deficits for Workers Compensation? HON. H. HARAPIAK: All our revenues are audited, in every instance. MR. A. KOVNATS: I don't want to prolong the deba te on the parking, but we were talking one time about some sort of a facility out here in the back, where boats could land just on the other side of the Louis Riel statue. Has anything more been done about that? HON. H. HARAPIAK: There is difficulty with the riverbank stabilization, so they have advised against proceeding with a project of that sort. MR. A.

KOVNATS: I remember - it seems about two years ago - that the government of the Province of Manitoba, the New Democratic Party Government, had stated that they were going to spend $1 00 million on riverbank stabilization and clean-up and whatever, which breaks down to about $10 million a year. I think that it doesn 't come under Go vernment Services.

I remember the Minister of Environment was given the responsibility and I don't think that's his responsibility anymore, but we're two years behind in the development of this $10 million a year; I'm not saying to spend the money just for the sake of spending the money. Can the Minister bring us up-to-date on what's happened for the last two years, where $20 million should have been established and it appears that no monies have been spent? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I will get the information from the appropriate Minister and I will advise you as to what's happened on that subject. MR. A.

KOVNATS: We were talking about rest rooms and I'm still trying to find out who looks after the rest room on this Pansy Corner . If we go back a little ways - now I'm getting looks of surprise - I've asked at least five different Ministers. About seven miles east of Pansy Corner, there are rest rooms at the side of the road and there used to be benches and there were signs saying that you could stop there and have a picnic lunch and there was a water facility. For two years now, I've been asking for ! the place to be cleaned up. I imagine that this would � come under Government Services.

It would have to , come under Government Services because eveybody else denies responsi bility. Wel l, Saturday when I was coming back from planting toma toes out at my farm, I was dr iving back and there were two men working in this location - the first time that anybody has ever come and did anything.

Can the Minister take responsibility in having those two men cleaning it up; and will the Minister have something to do with speaking to the Department of Highways, at least putting up signs now that we've upgraded the thre e-star , four-star location and tourists will be stopping there; will the Minister put up some signs advising that this is a rest room stop and bring it up­ to-date? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I regret to tell you that I can't take the responsi bility for having those two men working there, but I will certainly be discussing it with the Minister of Highways and be sure they continue to work and continue to provide the clean rest rooms. MR. A. KOVNATS: I've got to just bring it down to the record, this is the fifth Minister who has denied responsibility for this location, the fifth or sixth. I'll tell you, if I had thought about it while we were in Cooperatives, I probably would have asked th at Minister. I don't want to prolong the debate.

I've spoken on parking structures and I've spoken on toilet facilities, because I guess the toilet facility across the way there - right on the corner - is the respo nsibility of this Minister under Government Services. HON. H. HARAPIAK: That's correct. MR. A. KOVNATS: Has the Minister inspected the toilet facility over there to see that it is in good working condition? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes I have. They're in excellent condition. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you very much. 3096

Monday, 15 June, 1987 MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you want to pass? Does committee want to pass (eX1)? The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if it would be possible , if there 's staff here for telecommunication s, to ask a couple of questions on phones this evening before we finish . HON. H. HARAPIAK: We'll go and get the staff from telecommunicat ions , but I wonder if we could complete this portion here; we were dealing with MPI? MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, I just have a very few questions on phones .

I don 't really want to deal with telecommunications, but I do want to ask about phones, if it's all right, if you have staff here. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Sure . Yes, we have staff here. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I want to know, in the first place , who instigated the change of the telephones that we have. In our caucus offices in the caucus rooms , we have I guess two phones which are dial-tone , and when you're in the caucus office if there isn't staff there because of the new system, of course it just rings out in the secr etarial office and there's no way of knowing .

At one time, the lights used to pop up, and it may have been the old system, but I tell you it was a lot better for members who are in the caucus room at night, than the system we have presently ; because if there's no one in the other office , if a caucus member who may just be working in the office , you have no idea who the phone is for and you would always be running out. That is one of the questions.

The other question is, the other thing I would like to know is, as a Member of the Legislature to come down to this building to phone, if you're going to do any of your constituency work from the office here , it 's almost impossible with one line because you 're dialing out and you're leaving messages for people calling back , and you're on the phone constantly. Consequently, I have paid $58 to get a phone put in, and I'm paying $26 extra to have an extra phone sitting on my desk .

What I would like to know is, why the members could not have a touchtone with two lines and a hold, so that when you are working in the building , that at least you can have some service to the members. I don 't understand the new system. Obviously the older one, it might be better for the telephones , but it certainly isn't better for the members, not in individual offices . HON. H. HARAPIAK: I am advised that if the members can make a decision on where they want their telephones to ring, then it can be worked out that way.

If they want it to ring in yur caucus room, your telephones from your office can also be ringing in the caucus rooms . So it's just a matter of decision of ... MRS. G. HAMMOND: But the way the new system is, unless you punch the phone in, you don't know who it's for. Mr.

Chairman, the old system, the lights would light up under, you could see - my name sat on one button, the Member for Roblin-Russell, his name was on another button; and when people phoned in, that light went on, so you could instantly look and see if that was for you or you weren't answering the phone for every member of your caucus, of which there are 25-26 members. And now, with the new system, you have to actually punch that phone and then you find out it's for someone else and you don't want to spend the whole evening answering the phone for someone else, and we don't have staff there at night.

And then in our own offices, if somebody phones back, that doesn't help; all they'll get is a busy signal, if I'm on the phone . Consequently, I'm paying for an extra phone in my office , but it certainly is a very poor way to service this building and to service the MLA's in our offices . HON. H. HARAPIAK: I think it would be best if the people from Telecommunications comes down to see if there's any possible way that they can work it out with the equipment we've got presently, because the old system is being phased out .

I know it was much more app ropriate the way it was before, when you could keep track of where the calls were coming from . But maybe they can come down and see how they can make some changes to accommodate you r wishes with the system we've got at this time. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to belabour the point. The Minister responsible for the Telephone System is here right now. But I just want to say, that new is not necessarily better, and in this case it is the pits , quite frankly, the new system.

I don't know who it works well for, but it certainly doesn't work well for the members and for our caucus room phones . When the telephones are paying for advertising in the Sun and in the Press to say how everybody has got Touchtone phones and we're still dialing with our fingers in the caucus room , I would think that there might be a little bit of upgrading there, too . But besides that - I don't mind dialing - but I really do mind not knowing when I have a call coming in at night. That means I'm totally isolated from any outside calls. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: We'll have staff come down and have a look at it and see if there's any way we can accommodate your request with the equipment that we have at this time. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it the committee's wish to rise at this time? MRS. G. HAMMOND: I want to apologize. I want to apologize for something , I was told that they're all Touchtone. I must be imagining myself dialing in the caucus room . HON. H. HARAPIAK: I'm wonder ing if we can stick to the agenda, because some of our staff will not be available tomorrow because they've got to go to a court case.

So, I'm wondering if we can deal with the Employee Housing and . . . MR. A. KOVNATS: It isn't a lawsuit for a mistake n telephone directory, is it? 3097

Monday, 15 June, 1987 HON. H. HARAPIAK: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: Leased Properties: (1 )(d), Salaries - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Under Leased Properties, I wonder if the Minister could tell us, or give me some examples of some of the rates that are charged on a per square foot basis for buildings that we pay to rent property from private holders and Manitoba Properties Inc. Could I get a few examples, just an average? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I could table that information for you, but Manitoba Properties Inc., the average per square foot costs are $5.77. MR. D.

ROCAN: How much money in tax revenue does the province and the Federal Government lose through tax exemptions provided through Manitoba Properties Inc.? HON. H. HARAPIAK: That's a figure th at the Department of Finance would have. We wouldn't have that with Government Services. MR. D. ROCAN: Okay, (d)( 1) and (2)- pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(e)( 1) Emplo yee Housing, Salaries - the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: For which departments does the Department of Government Services provide housing for? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: We provide housing for the Depar tm ents of Natu ral Resources, Hig hways, Government Services, Commu nity Services - and Frontier Schools. We have the Departments of Natural Resources, Highways, Community Services and Health. MR. D. ROCAN: It's classified as a housing unit and where are they located in the province? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We have 11 7 different locations. It's thr ee pages of locations all the way through the province. So I'll forward a copy of the housing units to you. MR. D. ROCAN: What type of accommodation is supplied to a person in this classificat ion? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Just a living unit. In some cases, it's two bedrooms, thr ee bedrooms or whatever is required, or a mobile home in some instances. MR. D. ROCAN: How many people are presently in this particular classificat ion? HON. H. HARAPIAK: There are 101 units leased to department emplo yees. There are seven units being used for bunkhouse facilities; there are six units leased to the private sector, pending need of Government Services, government departments; and there are three vacant at this time. MR. D. ROCAN: What would be the cost back to the department here? What does it cost the department? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: There is no cost to the department. It's a net out. We recover totally the cost from all the departments. MR. D. ROCAN: Are there guidelines issued as to how the unit no longer meets the program requirements, and who establishes this? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The client departments go to Treasury Board and jus tify their needs for the housing and when we find that the housing units are no longer required, then they would be sold. MR. D. ROCAN: Is the Minister aware of any policy changes that are going to occur as a result of a change in the present policy now? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: We are not contemplating any change in policy at this time. MR. D. ROCAN: I noticed under Activity Identification, you have, where the program provides accommodation where the em ployee is subject to frequent transfer between geographical areas. Are any of these units outside the province? HON. H. HARAPIAK: No, we have no units outside the province. MR. D. ROCAN: I just noticed tha t we have "geograp hical," and I just wondered. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: That could be a location like Highways where there is difficulty getting housing in some particular communit, where there is a need for emp loyees to be located, or in an area like Gillam where there's need for Natural Resources to have resource staff located in there and then they would require houses in isolated cases of that sort. MR. D. ROCAN: Did somebody recently retire? In Emplo yee Housing, we have $73,000 for Salaries. In the annual report it shows 34.8. Why is it so high? Did somebody retir e and, if so, who? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Last year, there were thr ee emplo yees in the Estimates, but there was one emplo yee who wasn't required and so it was reduced to two. There were two staff years trans ferred out. One was a secretary and one was a supervisor. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.( e)( 1) -pass; 1. (e)(2)- pass. 2.(f)( 1) Salaries, Security and Parking - the Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Chairman, a question on parking with respect to validation stickers for members of the Legislature and also staff. The parking area around the Legislature is always conge sted.

If one arrives here early enough in the morning, many times one finds that staff from other areas, other government staff, come and park their 3098

Monday, 15 June, 1987 cars here and walk over to other buildings to start their day's work. That just adds to the congestion around this building. We find that staff, perhaps, who come here later can't get adequate parking. Is there any way that Government Services could perhaps devise a sticker that could be placed on the windshield so that areas around the Legislature would be used by those people who work in the Legislature rather than people who work in other buildings? HON. H. HARAPIAK: That's an extremely difficult area to deal with.

We are looking at developing some sort of a process for finding parking space for government emplo yees. Just because people work at the Woodsworth Building, they are government empl oyees just as much as people working in the Legislature, and that's where some of the people do go to, so we have to come up with a facility where government em ployees can park. We feel with the negotiations going on now for possible paid parking, that may alleviate some of the problems because there may be more people pooling cars once they have to start paying for parking.

I want to tell you, there's been cooperation from the emplo yees. They are anxious to get the parking problem resolved as well, so there are discussions going on with empl oyees at all levels to try and resolve this problem. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr .

Minister, we're not trying to lay the blame on emp loyees who work in certain areas, other areas in the Legislature, but I think we all recognize that with the number of people that are working in this particular building we hardly have enough parking spaces that surround this building; I think that's a given, without having people from other areas, down Broadway or the Norquay Building, or wherever, parking their vehicles here. So I think that problem has got to be addressed by your department, Mr. Minister, so that there can be some alleviation of the problem for staff that work here.

I know we have staff who can't get parking spaces here, they keep running around for 15 minutes every morning trying to find out who's not here and try to get a parking space somewhere on the grounds; and I don't think that's very fair for emp loyees to have to come to work, regardless of who they work for, whether it's your side of the House or ours, when they come to work to try to find a parking space when none are available, and then later find out that they've got a ticket stuck on their windshield.

The other question that I had was whether or not, on a day like we had today where it's Senior Citizens' Day and only MLA's were allowed to park in the rear of the building, whether it is only restricted in thos e instances to MLA's, or whether government em ployees, or emplo yees of the government are allowed to park there, but emp loyees of the Opposition are not allowed to park there? HON. L. HARAPIAK: Only the ass igned parking people, like the Deputy Ministers, have their parking spots, and outside of that only the MLA's were allowed to park in that area. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, S.

Ashton: The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. L. DERKA CH: Well, Mr. Minister, I don't want to appear to be a squealer, but I think if that is the rule, then tha t rule should be abided by fairly for both sides of the House, because toda y, clearly, there were people on the government side, who are not Deputy Ministers, who were allowed into the parking area;

whereas our emplo yees, for example, were told to leave their cars at home or find parking elsewhere. I simply say that we have a parking problem, that's a given. I don't think the system is working the way it is right now. I don't think we should be putting any blame on the emp loyees because they're just trying to do their

part in finding a spot so they can leave their car for the day and work, and I think it's long overdue, and I hope that your department will remedy this in the near future. HON. H. HARAPIAK: I am advised that anybody that had an assigned parking spot in the back was allowed to park in their assigned spots, and any of the scrambled spots were left for the Ministers. It was equally applied to both sides, if it was a member of the Opposition, or a member of the government. MR. L. DERKACH: No, that wasn't the case, but nevertheless. I don't want to make a point of that, Mr . Minister.

I used that as an example to ill ustrate the fact that I would hope tha t you use some expediency in alleviating the problem that persists around th e Legislature right now, because it's not getting any better, it's getting worse. HON. H. HARAPIAK: I can tell you that since I've become Minister of Government Services, I've had more complaints about emplo yee parking than any other item dealing with any of the departments of Government Services. MR. L. DERKACH: Well then I suggest we do something about it, Mr . Minister. HON. H. HARAPIAK: We are in the process of doing something about it.

I think paid parking will probably resolve a lot of the problems. MR. L. DERKACH: Well, that's your problem, Mr . Minister, and I hope that a year from now we're still not debating this same problem. HON. H. HARAPIAK: I certainly hope not. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Under Activity Identification, it says here where the department "operates a Tour Guide Program in the Legislative Building." Is the Minister considering making this a year-ro und fully -staffed program? HON. H. HARAPIAK: There was some consideration being given to having tour guides on a year-round basis. MR.

D. ROCAN: These tour guides right now, they're only ther e for what, a th ree or four-month period? 3099

Mon day, 15 June, 1987 HON. H. HARAPIAK: They are presently on from May to September . MR. D. ROCAN: And the rest of the time, the rest of the year then, we expect the security guards to be tour guides, right? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, the security guards do act as tour guides on occasion. MR. D. ROCAN: Therefore you're saying that in order to free up the security guards, we're looking right now at making these tour guides year-rou nd. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Well, we feel that we are looking at the possi bility of treating this as sort of a part of our tourism industry and having one staff on during the off season time, but we would staff up during the busy period of May to Septem ber. We're looking at having one during the wintertime. MR. D. ROCAN: Is the Minister intending on increasing staff for security? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We are not intending to staff up, but we are intending to utilize the staff years that we have been given to a better degree. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D.

ROCAN: How many security staff do we have presently in the Legislature? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Curr ently we have one program manager, a secretary, one senior security services officer , two se cu rity officers on day shift, two commissionaires, and two security officers on night shift. MR. D. ROCAN: On the evening shifts, say now, when one security has to make his rounds, that only leaves one in the building, right? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The only time that they leave the building is when they go out to close the gates and then they're in radio contact with their partner at all times. MR. D.

ROCAN: So they don't have to make any rounds in the evening at all. They don't patrol the grounds at all. HON. H. HARAPIAK: They have a mobile patrol. In addition to these two guards that are on, they have a mobile patrol that's available to them as well. MR. D. ROCAN: How often would he be coming around the building? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The mobile patrol is on for 16 hours a day, seven days a week, and this service responds to all emergency calls as well as carrying out all regular patrol checks during the silent hours in a majority of locations. MR. D.

ROCAN: So he wouldn't have to log in here at all then, would he? HON. H. HARAPIAK: They are supp osed to be coming through on a periodical basis. MR. D. ROCAN: By closing the gates at six, is that just to cut some of the traffic? Any special reason why we're closing gates at six o'clock now? HON. H. HARAPIAK: It was moved to six o'clock in error. It has now been changed to eight o'clock, and yes, they are closed to restricted traffic. MR. D. ROCAN: I also note here, where it says, "provide sur veillanc e", is this what we're talking about, surveillance right now - your roving security guard? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: That is referring to intrusion alarms that we have in some of our buildings. MR. D. ROCAN: The alarm in the Lieutenant­ Governor's building - is it working now? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes. MR. D. ROCAN: Is there any special training given to our security staff? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The staff is given a training program that is an internal program that has been developed internal ly. Everyone is given that when they are coming on staff. MR. D. ROCAN: I noticed that we contract security for Keewat in and Ward Laboratories and the Agriculture Service Lab.

Who has these contracts and were they tendered out, and at what cost? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We're just looking for information as to who has them, and maybe we can get them to you at a later time. MR. D. ROCAN: Has the department giv en any consideration at all to automating, or some kind of electronic cards, or something, to get in four doors of this building. You know, after that last episode in Ottawa, there was an awful lot of people that were scared that somebody would try and get into this building.

We've only got two security guards and they're always at the front of the building, and there's four other doors that a person would get access into this building. Have you given any consideration at all that some kind of a card or something . . . HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, we have that under consideration. I would like to discuss that with you further . MR. D. ROCAN: Okay. I think we could pass this one. MR. CHAIRMAN: Pass? MR. D. ROCAN: Okay, the parking is all looked after so we can pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: Gimli Properties: Salaries (1) . The Member for Turtle Mountain. 3100

Monday, 15 June, 1987 MR. D. ROCAN: Thank you. I would like a status report on what steps have been taken to privatiz e Gimli Properties. The Minister last year was considering such a move. Can he tell us how far we're along? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Oka y, we can break, or rise if you like, if you didn't want the answer to that one. We have transferred all the housing units and they have been sold, and there's an agreement on the Recreational Centre, and the rest of the project is in the process of being transferred. MR. D.

ROCAN: Last year the former Minister indicated that the houses at Gimli were going to be sold as condominiums. Have any of them been sold, to date? HON. H. HARAPIAK: It is our understanding that all the units have been sold, have been renovated and sold. MR. CHAIRMAN: Gimli Properties: Salaries (1) -pass; Other Expenditures- pass. Can we pass the resolution on that tomorr ow then? Is that fine with the Committee? (Agreed) Committee rise. SUPPLY - COOPERATIVE DE VELOPMENT MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee, please come to order .

We have been considering· the Estimates of the Department of Cooperative Devel opment. We are on Item No. 2.(a)( 1) Cooperative Credit Unit Development, Salaries; 2.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures. When we left off before the interruption for the Private Busine ss Hour , there was a question from the Member for La Verendrye and the Minisbr was about to answer. The Member for La Verendrye. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Mr . Chairman, it appears that the Minister who is supposed to answer, and the person who asked the question, both don't remem ber. So, in that respect, I will ask a new question. I don't know whether it's new; I think it's partly the same question that I had at six o'clock when we adjourned.

Would the Minister like to elaborate as to what his long-range plan is in respect to credit unions and also with the stabilization and whether the rates would be increased and, if so, how much, or whether he could set a ceiling on it? This is basical ly, I believe, what was my question, whether there would be a possi bility of capping it, sort of, so that credit unions that are doing well, so to call, wouldn't have to, forever and a day, be subsidizing those which possibly aren't doing so well or maybe should even be closing. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. J.

COWAN: It's actually the legislation itself that sets the ceiling, the maximum amount, by which a levy can be collected, and that is the one-quarter of 1 percent plus the one-eighth of 1 percent; so that, in effect, is a legislated ceiling and cannot be exceeded. 3101 As I indicated earli er, there are other ways that the system and the movements can work together internally in order to provide for self-help, but in respect to levies, there is that legislative requirement. I think there's another part of the member's question though, and that's time - how long will that levy be imposed.

It's really a matter for the systems themselves to determine, for the most part. However, if the systems are approaching the government for assistance and were talking seriously about assistance with them thr ough an agreement or a contin uation of an agreement, as we are now, then I feel the government has a respon sibility to say to them that as long as certain requirements are there or as long as certain circu mstances exist and you require our assistance, we are going to ask you or require of you, if it's by way of an agreement, some self-help.

So if you're asking a question in context of the discussions that are presently ongoing, I think the best answer would be is we expect that the movements will be providing some form of self-help which may be through form of a levy , it may be through other forms, maybe both, or through many different forms, as long as they're in an agreement with us and expecting some assistance of any sort from the Provincial Government. Once there's no longer any agreement , then, of course, it's up to the systems unto themselves to make that determination. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Mr.

Chairman, I think it's quite obvious, though, that there are some credit unions that have never requi red or have asked for any assistance, and I bel ieve when the Minister indicates that these that are requiring assistance, then there's an obligation, I respect him for that comment. At the same time, I can't quite go along with his line of thinking that for almost into an endless amount of time or regardless what these credit unions are doing, they are receil'ing funding from the stabil ization. I believe there must be a way, in an orderly fashion, to either shut them down, close them down or something.

That should also be in the legislation. Whatever you're claiming as a government that you're contributing, it's everybody's money in the Province of Manitoba who are contributing. At the same time, then the same area, it's like a double taxation. They're also then, through their credit unions, funding for this. I would like the Minister to elaborate a little more, because he did indicate that basically - I'm sensing from him - he's not prepared to renew the interest from the $29.5 million, he's not willing to renew that in July when that expires. At least I'm sensing that from him.

So I wish, once more, that he would elaborate a little more so I'd have a better idea as to what the future of these credit unions and also those credit unions that for many years have been running a deficit, and how he intends to proceed with those credit unions. At the same time, my next question, which I wish he could right away answer at that time, would be: How many credit unions have required assistance in the past year out of the Stabil ization Fund? HON. J.

COWAN: Well, I can agree with the Member for La Ve rendry e's statement that there are some credit unions and caisses populaires that have not required assistance, have never required assistance in the past.

Mond ay, 15 June, 1987 I'd like to carry it one step further , and ask him if he agrees that at any given time, every credit union or every caisse populaire may in fact require assistance. So one can say that there are some that have never requir ed it, but one cannot, on the other hand, say there are some that will, without doubt, never require assistance. I think even the strong credit unions today will accept that notion. They will say we're fine, for whatever circums tances - maybe it's good loca tion, maybe it's good management, maybe it's good fortune. We're in a good position today.

But it may be that those circu mstances change or that good fortune turns sour, and we may be in a situation where we require assistance in the future. So while there is truth to the fact that they have not requi red assistance, I think there is an equall y compelling truth to the fact that they may require assistance. For that reason, we have to structure our programs not only to take into account the strong, but also to take into account the potential for the weak to become strong and for the strong to weaken over time. The programs we build have to acknowledge that circums tances change.

One of the ways of dealing with the specific concern that the member expresses in regard to the weak credit unions dragging down the strong credit unions or the weak caisses populai res dragging down the strong caisses populaires is for them, when they develop their cooperative mechanisms interna lly , to develop a mechanism where, perhaps, as the weak becomes strong - and that's the goal - they're able to repay some of that assi stance. Maybe they repay it to a strong credit union and help them, maybe they repay it to a weaker credit union tha t needs the help so th at everybody continues to help each other.

If, in fact, in spite of our best intentions and their best efforts, the circu mstances so mitigate against them that they cannot gain that strength and that vitality so that they are not viable institutions, then they would have to be closed down. When we say "closed down," it's not a matter of closing the door and the membership or the depositors losing their money; it's a matter of merging them with the stronger credit unions so that those members can go to a different credit union.

So what you're doing is you're allowing them the opportunity to participate and continue to participate in the credit union or caisse populaire movement. It's just the location has changed. The member, I think, is suggesting that perhaps we have to do more of that. I don't think that we have to do all that much more at the present time, because as I indicated earlier, we've gone from, I believe, 12 8 to 95 - some of tho se mergers, some of th ose disillusions over the last decade - so there has been quite a bit of rationalization.

But if further rationalization is required, then I think that is an option that has to be looked at by the Stabilization Board, by la Fonds de securite, by la Federation, by the Central, and by the individual credit unions, and I think they can take those difficult decisions when they're required. Their overall goal is the same as the Member for La Verendrye, myself and the other 340,000 members' share, and that's a strong, viable, financial movement based on cooperative principles in which we can invest our sa vings - that which they may be - and we can also benefit by the health of that movement as a province.

In respect to the specific question, there were 19 credit unions that received financial assistance during 1986. There are 25 presently under supervision, and that's a reduction of 2, I believe, over the past year. Actually it's a reduction of 4, with 2 coming in and going out, but a net reduction of 2. There are 2 caisses populaires that received assistance during 1986 out of 4 deficit caisses populaires. MR. H.

PANK RATZ: I think maybe the Minister misunderstood me, but I suspect it's maybe even intentional, because when I indicate that he's taking the provincial funding to basically subsidize credit unions, it's like, for instance, when 17 million in five years, the interest has been taken from the Province of Manitoba, that needn't necessarily be credit union mem bers. It's the ratepayers' mone y. It's the Manitoba people that have paid tha t money and they're concerned where their tax dollar is going.

If the credit union, as such, wants to have this type of a program whereby they will equalize for each other and pay into the fund and then subsidize, I can accept it to some point, but when you have all the ratepayers in this Pr ovince of Ma nitoba forever and a day subsidizing some credit union which possibly shouldn't be in existence, then I sort of have to differ with the Minister. My next question to him would be in that respect: How many of tho se 19 consistently have demanded funding from the Stabilization Fund? HON. J.

COWAN: Without having exact figures in front of me, I think it's safe to say that most likely all 19. If not all 19, certainly the majority of the 19 have received assistance on an ongoing basis for the last number of years. It's also important to point out that out of the 24 credit unions under supervision, 12 of them showed operating profits for the last year. So they may be under supervision because of debts from previous years and they just haven't been able to work their way out of that. But if you take them on a year-by-year basis, they are showing progress.

It's very important to keep indicating so that there be no misunderstanding about the overall health of the sys tem, that the system is generally healt hy. It went through a difficult time and it requi red some assistance. Tha t assistance was designed, developed and implemented with the pur pose in mind of making the system health ier, and it seems to have done that. It was also developed with the question in mind as to whether or not that type of assistance or another type of assistance would be re quir ed after five years, because the loan agreement had a five-year reopener in essence.

Those negotiations, those discussions, are being unde rtaken at present, and there should be an announcement forthcoming relatively soon as to the results of those deliberations. In respect to the Manitob ans gener ally, the taxpayers helping to provide assistance to the credit unions and caisses populaires, the member is absolutely correct, because the interest, in essence, comes out of provincial funding, although it's a provincial bond and there's 3102

Mond ay, 15 June, 1987 interest on that. It's still a significant amount of money that comes out of the province's overall ability to raise money and to pay out money for other programmings. I would only ask the Member for La Ve rendrye, what would he have done under similar circumstances?

When you're faced with a system that needs that assistance to make it through a window, a very difficult window, a very difficult time and you know, if you provide that assistance, it's going to make it through that window and the gamble, based on the best available information and forecast ing that one can do, is that, when it makes it through that window, it will grow, it will increase in viability, its health will become better and eventually it will be able to stand on its own.

That is the one option available to you, as opposed to the other option of doing nothing, and perhaps it won't make it through that window. I guess we'll never know, but there was a concern that assistance was required at that particular time, and the assistance has, in fact, had the intended pu rpose. We have gone through that difficult time. The system is healthier , more viable, still some work to be done, granted, but we're prepared to do that work. We have been able, through a whole variety of different means and measures, been able to build for the future. There's new legislation in place.

The financial assistance has helped individual credit unions and caisses populair es. The Performance Improvement Program - we're now doing some work in respect to loans and how we identify a healthy mechanism for providing loans through the credit unions and the caisses populaires. All that work needed time to be done. It has been done. The system is healthi er. I think the figures I gave earlier were 12 percent and 14 percent growth in assets respectively for the credit unions and the caisses populaires in the past year.

That's a very healthy growth ratio for those financial institutions, and it seems to have worked. What would you have done in place of that sort of assistance? I don't think there was any other option available to us. I think the option available to us now is to reflect upon the experiences and the