PRELI~INARY !.':TEn I 'IT~ Tlt~TSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEt'BLY FOR TFE PER !On: 10:00 A.M. - 1:00 P.~. FRIDAY, DECillffiER 8th., 1<178

December 8, 1978 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Tape 159 Order, please! PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fortune-Hermitage. PK - 1 MR. J. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of some 302 residents of Gaultois. "We,the undersigned residents of the town of Gaultois, Hermitage Bay,of the full age of eighteen years or over do hereby petition the House of Assembly in regular session to hear the prayer of our petition which follows.• And the prayer reads, Mr.

Speaker,11 The town of Gaultois,although incorporated in 1962,has been the centre of commerce for Hermitage Bay for 160 years. Due to the effect of this conmerical activity based almost exclusively on the fishing industry,it still continues to be the main centre of the fishing industry for this area. Its effect still radiates East and West for some considerable distance and requires that movement of people be made from time to time and continuously. As Gaultois is on an island it therefore follows that any movement of persons must be by boat or air.

The water route is obviously the more reliable until a highway is provided. We submit that a capable ferry service should be provided to operate on a regular basis between Long Island and Hermitage, and that the people of Gaultois are being discriminated against by its absence for so 1 ong ." Now, Mr. Speaker, in speaking to the prayer of this petition,which is backed up,incidentially~by a letter from the Lion's Club indicating where only recently-a few days ago; last Sunday-the Gaultois Lion's Club travelled to Harbour Breton for its own meeting.

And for this occasion eighteen members had to travel the three miles of water in one boat, a small boat at that, at a time 392

:ape Xo. 160 - 1 '!"'R. J. "::l.~SO!l: i.:l.aal. !:1a Lions Club is backing up :his peticion very stron&ly . .?J.:;o c:~e to~o":l council ~ •.r::itten t r.c :!!.nister of Tra:1spor~tio::: and f.o~unicatio:JS ·d.cll reiere:~c.a to :::,is. I nave also co=u.U.cate:! 1nt:: :~e feGarlll !"'.2111ber, '·!r • .J3111ieson; copies oi that telex :'lave ~ee~ se:::.t ::o !:he Premi er, tl1e :!inister of Transpor::a t ior. and C:o!!llllunications , ~cy 3re ::;\roughly aYare of the -.l.aed for it ,I ao sure.

I find it ~.trf difficult to und.arstand way Gaultois is being c!iscrir..i::la ted against , the ooly popula ted island , as tar as I know,t~~ t does not have a daily service of some kind for t!le peo!>le to co=.ut:.e ~Jack and forth t-e::ween d~e '!ai.n.land. I -.:oulc! ta!..e t:Je c=e of lioody ?oint md t>orr !s ?oi:1t in '3ay of Islands , and not beg:ruding ny :1or.. f::-ie.:td an:,-th.i.:1g a t all, he spelled out for us ye s::ar:!a~· so~1e of ~le goodies . :<ow there is a ferry soing bet~1een ~·Toody Point and :;;orris Point but there is also a road.

We i:ave neithe r 2nd I t:hint. i.t is ti!l:e so:ne actio:: ;r.~.s taken on t~is . I 1.:ould ask t:1at c:U.S petiC::.on l:e ~lacec on :~e tabl~ oi ~~e Eouse and referred to t~e ~~pcr~enc to ·~ic!: it -:elates. TI1e hon . menber for 3uri~-Pl~cent:ia Hest. !tr . Speaker, I rise to l'Upport ::1:.s !'-:!titioe. Fir:;t of all I ·:1es borr. a:c! recred o:: = isla.'lc. ! '·.r.ow aJ.: t!la inconver.icn ces. I i::n<l'~ the ::.::co:l.ver:!.ences of ':.ei:t~ frrn t:la ::.t:i:lland . I -.:as si-xteen tnilcs, jus t a l!.:ue s:~or:.::r , out 393

December 8th., 1978 Tape No. 161 m;r - 1 1IR. P. CANNI NG: endure a lot of anxieties, Sir, during storms and illness and accidents. So it is very important that these people should get this ferry o~ some connection, a good connection to the mainland. ,\..'T JfON. MEMBER: We cannot hear you. ~!"!.. P . CANNING: Do you want me to repeat it?I do not mind. When rising to support this petition I said I rise to support the petition.

First of all, I was born on an island and I know all the inconveniences, all the anxieties it caused, what dangers are experienced on these islands if there is an accident when you have to go by sea, especially on the southwest coast, the area of which he speaks which is as rough or perhaps rougher than Placentia Bay. I said I was farther from the mainland,! was sixteen miles • . 1!1d I know exactly what it is like to be on an island, neople with sick children,if you had an accident it was possible you could be there eight or ten days and neither a helicopter or an~ boat of any shape could approach this islands.

So this to me is of ~tter import­ ance. I was just going to say,secondly,I suppose it is probably a dual responsibility, federal and the provincial. but if it ia provincial responsibility, ~r.

Speaker, I am sure to ~et sympathetic hearing from the other side of the House because if they are not the only thing I could tell them is to put some money '•here the:!.r mouths are because since the islands of Placentia Bay have been resettled all we have heard from the government was what a terrible thing, how criminal it '~as to pncourage those people or turn these people off the islands, which they say, which never happened of course because the peonle who are endurin g those ,.rorries and dangers and whatnot '1anted to get off them, went of their awn free 'rill ., and they are better off by leaving. ~r.

Speaker, I take much pleasure and I do hope that of all the petitions that came to the Hause since the Hause opened, 394

December 8, 1978 HR. CAlnHNG: this one will~ Tape ~o. 162 EC - 1 I would say, h2.ve top priority anc! I hope it will get the attention of the ?rovincial government immediately. Today, I hope, they will go and try to do something about it, because I have been trying to put across to this House w~ere '"~ __ hear_ ev:=.rv other. day of that terrible government whicn ~•as so criminal, no consideration for the people, you know, and well, I just forget the things they said. No consideration and cri!'!li:::tal. I suppose that is enough. Mr. Speaker, I lived on those islands and they were decentralized. They relocated.

And when they were relocated, Mr. Speaker, thev had telephones, they had roads, cars driving, and a mile and a half was all the road that was there, they had a modern fish plant of that day, they had a good school, they had every convenience. But then that did not make up for the other worries the parents would have, and people living on those islands. petition. HR. SPEAKER: HR. NEARY: I wholeheartedly support this The han. the member for LaPoile. Mr.

Speaker, I rise to support the petition so ably presented by my hon. colleague, Sir, on behalf of his constituents, the people who live in the community of Gaultois. Like the han. gentleman who just spoke. tlr. Speaker, I am well aware of the problems and the frustrations of isolation, having also been born and raised on an insland right out in the middle of Conception Bay.

And believe me, Sir, I think that we are probably all amazed in this day and ap,e that people who live in an isolated part of ~ewfoundland should have to bring their problem before this House in the form of a petition when we have a government which is spending so much money on frills. 395

December 8, 1978 Tape No. 162 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: If they would cut out some of the frills they would be able to pr ov ide the ferry service to Gaultois that is so necessary. The frustrations, Sir, of living in i solation are immense indeed. As my hon. colleague indicated, take sickness or accident. Th ere is an industry in that community , Mr. Speaker . AN liON. MEMBER: Right. HR. N'EARY : There is a big industr y t he re . Th ere is no unemployment in Gaultois. There is a big industry there , and what 396

December 8,1978 Tape No. 163 ah-1 ~.NEARY: happens if there is a major accident? It could happen at any time and that used to be always our fear on Bell Island :if an accident occured or if somebody got seriously ill and the weather is bad and you cannot get a helicopter or a plane in there and the boat cannot run what happens, Mr. Speaker? There are periods of very, very deep anxiety I am sure in that community as there was in ours and still is on Bell Island even though there is a hospital there, Mr. Speaker.

So this is an urgent matter, Sir, and I might point out for the benefit of my bon. friend that it falls under provincial jurisdiction. It is an intra-provincial ferry service and there is a great battle going on between the Province now and Ottawa over the ferries that operate in this Province. Back several years ago the former Premier of this province managed to unload the ferry service onto the Government of Canada. The Government of Canada resented it because they claimed that intra-provincial ferry services come under the Province and not under the Government of Canada.

And the proVincial government of that day managed to get a fair amount of assistance out of the Government of Canada to operate two or three ferry services,including the one I referred to on Bell Island. But there is always a battle going on of whose jurisdiction the intra-provincial ferry services come under and I believe as other people do that it comes under the provincial government and it is the responsibility of the provincial government to provide, to subsidize, to provide this ferry service to Gaultois.

I hope, Sir, that the Minister of Transportation and Communi~ations will rise and tell us now because this is an urgent matter, something that cannot wait, that some of the frills will be cut out in this government and that they will go on and implement this ferry service that is so necessary for the safety and security of the people who live in that community of Gaultois on the Southwest coast. MR. SPEAKER : Ron. member for the Straits of Belle Isle. 397

December 8,1978 Tape No. 163 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, R. number of ID.Y colleagues have spoken with eloquence in support of thi.s petition and I do not need to repeat what they have said except to say that I think the points that they made were well made and the points which they made des~e a hearing. 398

December 8, 1978 Tape 164 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: I would like tc bring in another point in supporting this petition, I thinr there is a moral issue involved in this as well, in that a little more than five years ago this week there was a by-election held in what was then the district of Hermitage. A number of us in this House have very warm and very favourable memories of that event; a number in the House may have warm and not so favourable memories of it as well, Mr. Speaker. MR. RIDEOUT: You mean the member for Green Bay (Mr. Peckford). MR.

ROBERTS: The by-election was held in the district of Hermitage and the community of Gaultois was then part of that district. It is now in a different district because of the redistribution that subsequentially occurred. In that by-election the Premier of the Province and a number of his colleagues on a number of occasions promised the people of Gaultois that there would be a ferry service between their island and the community of Hermitage itself, which is their mainland terminus on the mainland of the Island of Newfoundland itself.

I think, Sir, if for no other reason than the fact that the government did make a commitment, made a commitment openly and publicly, they made it to try to win votes, but that should not take away from the probity or the honesty or the integrity _of their commitment.

But for that reason alone I would hope that the Minister of Transportation and Communications\newly come to the portfolio- there have been five or six ministers between him in 1978 and whoever happened to be the minister of whatever the department was then called back in 1973- but the minister,if for no other 'reason and to honour a commitment made by his Premier and by his.colleagues in the Cabinet,should honour that commitment. The case speaks for itself. The case, Mr. Speaker, of the needs of the people of Gaultois is adequate in itself.

But if the ministry, particularly the minister,should not think that that in itself the merits of the case are sufficient to carry the day,then I would suggest that simply the old-fashioned concept of being a man of one's word, and being a man of integrity, and being a government of integrity, and being a government that keeps its commitments should carry the day and 399

December 8, 1978 Tape 164 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: provide the people of Gaultois with the ferry which they deserve, and the ferry which they were promised. I support the petition, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~- SPEAKER! The hon. member for the Bay of Islands. MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, having worked in that area for almost eight years.I am well acquainted with the problems that people have travelling between Hermitage and Gaultois. In fact, i11· that time during my day there were no roads there and we had to travel from Harbour Breton to - AN HON~ MEMBER: Would the hon.gentleman -

silence? ~-J:1a.t :taV\3 ;""au zct against ::te? I ar'. spea:._i:-.:.: on 'b~::.al f of ,g. u.an in this hon. Rouse of A3 s :=.w.bl,/. If you do not speak Order, ~lease! ~'It.. "'!'OO:l'ROW: '!'·!r.. Spea~{.er, as I 3aid, !1aving ~rorked t:<ere anc! :;nowi:tg the difficulties.

At that ::>articular ti-.::e ·7e had to travel-in fact,fron Harbour Bretor. we l1ad to take a 'coat, a..c; the ~1on. :::nember lr..nows, from Landing Cove over to De.Psor.. 1 s r.oye. ~d a truck &~d then down to Hermitage a~d en over to G~ultois. ~he ,eople,in fact, they certainly travel under roost difficult conditions and you reall~· have to be there, you have to be there, ;roL h;;o.ve to be in l;;mltois to know ::.o~·r difficult it is, the hardships peo?le ·~der2o in c,ettin~ back and forth. ~~d I il2.rcour E-.:-l'!tn'l._,I thin!c it is, t'-1e ri8ht n;;.me, ;o.nd J~e is sincer2 ~nd honest..

I kn~,.,. h:tm -:rh.er_ ~e "ras do":·:'!l thert7 ""Jo'!'kinr I ~1or-e t:.at it "t.·Ji.ll Ue locLeC:. at iZt &. ve:ry serious r..la!:r ... cr c:lL.C. I support i:~1e petition one ~.1.undre~ per cent .. Tl.u:: ~1on. me!!}.ber for Trir.:.i;.:y- ~ !?~. F • :-:.O'WI. : ··--•.L.• Spea:.~r, I ri:..:;e or.~. e. :natter of pcrscu.al ~rivilege uff~cting a :ne.i"iJ.Cer of !:he i::.0use of Lss~~lll.y, inporta~t petition. Sir, I rise o~ a poi.ilt of ;:>ersoL<.c.l privil.:!ga rcga1:dinz 6.11 article. ii..'l ~cG.;:~.y's Deilv :~c-::rs 401 . ,, S .. l.:t..J.. ......

1 ~ouris:n ::i.ai s ter Ji!n "rc r ~an ".l..:s acce;>ced a chall e::.ge fron Liberal :-!.li.A. Fred !\owe 3Z.:! :~ . ~owe ' used t he fisheries ·conference for poli~ical pu~cs~s :,y pressuri::g Jolm Dust.an of Sag;:: Communications i:J.to contri buting CainfaigLl f=d s t o t:lC~ Libaral P.:!::;ty. '" '':!r . ~'.o rgan saic! in.forma :::!.on con tained in a lette r tab:i..ecl yesterda~· from :.:r.

Dus tan •,,;as :!.a direct conflict to 1ilhat ~1e had ~:alke.d aiJout earl ie r. '" :v':1oever ;.re are! '~!r. !!organ said ::e 1·1as even tol d i::,y :rr . ::::ius t.m r::b.ar:: r::!1e opposi tion met:lber ' mentioned the 3l:IOUnt of money per er.tployee tha t sitoul:l be given. ' ~!r. ~!organ sai ci tae figure was $100 per person. ":tr . !'.organ said he is prepare d ::o undergo polo~rs.pa (lie- detec tm:)' ' - I do no t k:loH "'hich l.ie ile is trying to detect, Sir - 40 2

December 7, 1978 Tape No. 166 EC - 1 MR. F. ROWE: "tests 'to prove I told no lies'. He said, ·~r. Dustan approached me on this, I did not approach him.' Mr. Dustan was unavailable for comment:' Sir, I flatly reject that statement. It is another untruth, Sir, and it is not at all consistent with the document I tabled yesterday: number 5. '"Mr. Rowe applied no pressure to me" - this is a letter signed by ~r. John Dustan - "Mr.

Rowe applied no pressure to 111e, and,in fact, did not even solicit funds." So, Sir, if I did not even solicit fund~ how could I ever possibly get into the details of how it is going to be done? It is not logical, Sir. Now, Mr. Speaker, when one rises on a point of personal privilege, one has to establish a prima facie case and move the appropriate motion. I am not in a position, Sir, to do that at this moment, at this early hour of the morning, because of the fact that I have just read The Daily News, and I just wish to point out to Your Honour that I do not wish to sleep on my rights.

I am bringing the matter to Your Honour's attention at this point in time so that I will not be caught sleeping on my rights, and I would like to inform you, Sir. that I am now in the process of gathering together the appropriate evidence for the purpose of proving that what the mirister stated in The Daily News is another example of the numerous falsehoods that he has uttered in this House of Assembly and outside the House of Assembly. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: I will hear the hon. member, then I will be in a position to make a ruling.

I will say this to hon. members - will the hon. gentleman please take his seat - I will say 403

December 7, 1978 Tape no. 166 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER: this for the general guidance of hon. members to my right and to my left, I think. there is perhaps an increasing frequency, a tendancy for hon. members not to take their seat when the Chair interposes or is mak.tng ~ ruling. I am sure there is nothing willing or planned about that, it is inadvertent, but hon. meabers should certainly observe that practice. I will hear the hon. gentleman to ~ left.

I will then, I am quite sure, be in a position to make a decision, because the process we are in now is where an hon. member gets up and submits what in his opinion is a prima facie case. If there is an affinnative ruling, than that gives precedence, priority to a motion which might come in. If there is a negative ruling, the matter is disposed of. I will hear the hon. gentleman. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. F. ROWE: Before the hon. minister rises, I have a point of explanation. Your Honour, I hope I made it clear that obviously I could not pursue the full course of the point

~ecember Rth., 1°78 Tape No. 167 T)H - 1 '~. F. ROWE: of personal privilege here this morning. I was s.imply,for the want of a better expression.giving notice that I wish to pursue this matter at a later date but I did not want to be caught sleeping on my rights because I did not bring it to Your Honour's attention at the earliest possible moment simply because of the fact that I have obviously to gather documentation and evidence and proof before I make any wild statements. ~'R.

SPEAKER: Before recognizing the han. minister,! will just say that actually the hon. member did in a very precise and appropriate manner submit the ldnd of sul:lmission which is appropriate at this stage,because at this stage there is no argumentation, no requirement for tabling, no submission of evidence as such. :~ pointed out the subject matter that he was concerned 'dt!:J. and gave a reference to the quotation in the Daily News and that in· fact is irrespective of how much opportunity the h.on. gentleman had to do further research there would he nothing further required at this moment.

I will hear the hon. minister. Hr. Speaker, I say first of all I do not think there is a matter of personal privilege because what I said in the Daily News is accurately reported;it was said outside the House of Assembly both to the electronic media and to the press media ;it ''as said outside the House as challenged by the han. gentleman who now put fon•ard his point of privilege. If that is the case , if points of privilege are being recognized of that nature, l{r.

Speaker, yesterday I ''as accused outside the House of lying to the Fouse hy the same han. gentleman So therefore I made my same statement I made in the House outside to prove I am not lying to the House and if the hon. gentleman 'las any recourse it is action outside the House of Assembly·, I am not standing on immunity of this han. House. I am pointing out there is no matter of privilege. Everything I said in this session of the House of Assembly in this assembly, 405

Taoe ~! o. 16 7 ~:R. !'ORGk~: }!r. Speaker, I have said outside the House of Assembly .~herefore if the hon. gentleman feels the privileges of the House and him as member of the Rouse have been breaclled ., he should take action outside the House. em. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am now in a position to give a ruling on this.~rst I will refer hon. members to May,page 346,and this very succinctly states the obligation of the Chair in this JDatter and it reads, "As a motiO!l t;tken at the tilDe for mattet"S of privilege is thereby given precedence over the pre-arranged programme of public business, the Speaker requires to be satisfied both that privilege appears to be sufficiently involved to 406

December 8,1978 Tape No. 168 ah-1 MR. SPEAKER: justify him in giving such precedence, (or, as it is sometimes put, that there is a prima facie case that a breach of privilege has been committed): and also that the matter is being raised at the earliest opportunity." We will cer ~ ainly concede that latter stipulation there of the earliest opporttmity. T!1erefore, ~,rh.:t I have to address myself to is whether the area of privilege is involved or sufficiently involved to give priority to a motion which might be subsequent thereto,in other words what is frequently called a prima facie case.

It is not for the Chair to decide upon the accuracy of the inaccuracy of allegations which may have been made by one hon. member against another hon. member. Privilege would come into the area if there were an allegation~or could come into the area if there were an allegation of a wrongdoing, of something which is wrong, something which is improper in the parliamentary sense.

Now whether an hon. member solicited funds or pressured for funds or for political purposes pressured so and so for communication, for a contribution to a certain party, whether he did or whether he did not there is no allegation of inrriority, there is still a difference of opinion with respect to alleged facts.

Just one brief quotation and this is from the fifth edition of Beauchesne page 114 and I think this puts it very succinctly,at least the last sentence, "It has been fornnlly ruled by Speakers that a statement by a member respecting himself and particularly within his own knowledge must be accepted but it is not unparliamentary temperately to criticize statements made by a member as being contrary to the facts but no imputation of intentinnal falsehood is permitted.

On rare occasions this may result in the House having to accept two contradictory accounts of the same incident." And I think that is the situation we are in. There is no allegation of impriority, no allegation of deceit; we are apparently left in a situation of accepting two contradictory accounts of the same incident and Beauchesne refers to that possibility· Seas strange as it may seem that is the position we are in and I think that one would dispose of the matter that way. 407

December 8, 1978 Tape No. 168 ah- 2 songs: !ilF tmnOR li®.• lllellbu for Jellt~'V'U. }!R. CQ;J..AN l . l'!r. &peabr, l ~"~e notice tfUtt I Will ou tomo!ttGW move the folloring 'tesOJ.uti~m.

Whereas: the {l01pe' By c:baoce a::x:u of thi.B ~ltCB 1a suffer:lng' ~treme ecotlOIIdc hardijh'ip becaut~e of the COJltinued cl!osuu o.f ,tlJe c~ Bi ~ce:- Qi1 ~t±neey; A1W ·~ tUI.i!II!Plo~i: is at A a~ dine hii}ht :tn this area 408

:-nr - 1 ''?... CALLAJJ: and

whereas ta.a clo;;ure of t: • .,. Come :Sy Chaace refiaery has left the government and t:1e t.:-xpayers of :his Provine~ holc!in~ tb.;o bag for some $60 million, :,e it t~erefora resolved t:1at a select col!ll!littee of the House be set up i=ediately to ascertain all the facts perteini~ to t:1e proposal to purchase the refinery and oak~ recomr.teadaticns to t:tis House on a r.on-partisan basis on 'vhat the Cornrnittee feels is the best offer ~ the interest of ell the people of this Province to re-open ~d reactivate the refinery.

SID:!E EON. ~!lr!BERS : Hear, ':lear! ~ll~'IEP..S TO Qt:ES':'IONS FOR ~miCH NOTICE liAS llEEN G~: HR. SPEA..JG:1'.: md Services. ~!R. B'?.ETT: Tl1e hon. ~tl.nister of Public ':.Jork.s ~!r. Speaker, I have the ans~;er to question ::J.umber (8) on yesterday's Order Paper. It Has asked by the hon. member for LaPoile (l!r. Neary), and t:1e questior. asked ~e to lay on the Table of the Eouse plans or arrangements for parl:ing, either free or on a flat rate basis, to Public Service er.1ployees who Hill be relocated in Atlantic Place in dm-mt::nm St. joh..'' s. T:1e terms. of the lease '.:>y the St.

John's Development Corporation agrees to provide t~irty free parking spaces in the parkiag ~arage. ~ IJL NE..ij_RY: Is that typed? '"1' .• BP.ETT: :'io, I c!o not bave it t~·ped as such. But alTJTHay as I said, the te=s of the lease agreed to thirty free parking spaces in the doTmtovn garage :,ut no decisio~ :1as beer.. Z"l.a<!e to date as to ";·rhat :;over-.JDent \J'ill do ~nt:l t3..: ~e~ai!li!:J parking spaces that >·Jill be required. I expect to !>ring t:le matter to Cabinet very shortly.

I am lookiag at tbe federal r2.r"king policy v7it"!l. resrect to their el'l?loyees ,.rhich is tl:at t:1ey Hill c>ro•Tide free :oarking sp?ce for five per cent of their enployees. Th:;.t •-rould incluee the senior staff, r:essen.';'ers •1!10 fi!".d it nccensary to use t~eir c.c.-=s s::veral tirr.cs a day T'.1.at -:mulC :"~ ::tbout s1..xty to seve.-:.:::" - 409

, 70 ... . v -.l{le To . 169 ·~. B".E'!.'T: ~<o, the thirty spaces :::,at is being !lrovided ~"'ould 31T1Cunt to ap,ro:dmately f1.VE: per cent. R.ow ':!any :U'C going do· • co .. tlant'!.c l'lzce? ·~. 3P-.ET!: ApproXimately 500. I :teard there <~l".s 1200. :P.. BPF.'IT: So that 30 would be ap~ro~etely fiv2 ::~<!r c~a:: . 3ut a;n::r:1ay no cie.fi."1i ta decizior. i~ <>aen na..:.O :.ut :t: •:il!. :1 :~ve ::o je =~e •.-lichir. t: 1e :ae.:tt ·~onth or so . efr. Speaker, I would like to supply !lD. ans~·1er to a question raised . by tl!e member for St . .fohn's ;la.st (Dr.

Kitchen) SO!:!e days ago as re?,arcs ::o ~;i:t etl:er the Prcvi-.ce ·U!.S ca:~:: up o r used .. ~!. ::lla money avai:aoie und~r the Central :•ort gaga s.t'ld ::o~;sin; pro grar.me, tll e :t.'{.tJ:' pro£r amm.e I ?elieve it ~1a s, accl ::· e =IDDar in~cated =~at accorcii~g to informacion e nad reccivec, or a s :at::me l>t. ~ca t.y ::he corpo ra~ ion, ::he c;.u,rc, th at all we w.o .. ey was uot u3ed. I'IOuld like to L"lform l:im an.:l t: ~ :louse :::at ::ct on:; 4i.O

December 8, 1978 Tape 170 PK - 1 Mr. Hickey: have ~·e used all of the money,which was somewhere in the vicinity of $4 million, but indeed we have peojects ready and are looking for some $600,000 to $800,000 in addition. would 1 ike to inform my hon. friend as well that the statement made, I think, was certainly ill-founded and confused inasmuch as I believe and I understand there is some money which might well go back to the Federal Treasury as applies to the urban areas, and especially in St. John's •:!here the NIP programmes are in effect.

And this programme is a very difficult one­ and I do not mean i-n any way to cast reflection on the city who ~ils tota 1 responsibility for this, we have no responsibility whatsoever it being a federal programme - but that it is a very difficult programme to manage and as it applies to the urban areas the ground rules are quite different, and in this regard we are working with Central Mortgage and Housing in an effort to get them to be a little more flexible in using this money in the urban areas.

So I would hope if we give some back this ve?r certainly next year we will have the ground rules changed to the extent that there will be indeed no more go back. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, before I put my question to the Minister of Justice, Sir, the Acting Premier, I want to congratulate The Daily News on their follow-up story as a result of a question asked during the Oral Question Period yesterday on the First Arabian Corporation's visit to Newfoundland.

I want to congratulate The Daily News, especially John Furlong~on the follow-up that he did on that question. Now, Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice, the Deputy Premier, Sir.

In view of the serious revelations at the Mahoney Commission of Inquiry yesterday concerning the role played by the Premier and two Cabinet ministers in authorizing the rental of government office space in Corner Brook over the recommendations of the Department of Public Works Leasing and Rental Officer,! would like to ask the minister whether a similar arbitrary procedure was followed in his government's rental of space in Atlantic Place at considerably in excess per square foot of the competing tenders? 41.1.

December 8, 1978 Tape 170 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the second part of that question would be more properly directed to the appropriate minister. The first part of the

preamble in the question I would think would be more properly held over until we get the findings of Mr. Justice Mahoney after he has had an opportunity to review all of the evidence given under oath. MR. NEARY: Well,I will direct a supplementary - MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: - to the minister who is responsible for Public Works, Sir.

Would the minister tell the House if the same procedure, and that is the Premier and the ministers overruling the public servants, was the same procedure fellowed in the case of Atlantic Place where the contract for the rental of office space for the government employees was given to a bidder who submitted a bid much higher than the lowest tender? What happened in this case? What procedure was followed? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Public Works. MR. BRETT: A decision to rent space at Atlantic Place, Mr. Speaker, was made by the Cabinet, not by the Premier or any one individual.

And while the bids received from the St. John's Development Corporation were slightly higher than other bids received,it was a better bid when you consider that we could move five depar1lllents into the one area, and that was the whole intent in the first place,to try to consolidate tive or six departments 41.2

December 8. 1978 Tape No. 171 EC - 1 MR. BRETT : that we have scattered all over St. John's to get them all into one area. So in view of this, the bid from Atlantic Place was better. l1R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, A supplementary. Do I understand, then, what the hon. gentleman is saying, that the Public Service, the people in the Department of Public W~rks, had no input into the decision to rent that office space at Atlantic Place, that it was strictly a political decision? l!R. BRETT: No, Mr. Speaker. The Cabinet of the Province makes the decision, not civil servants.

HR. NEARY: HR. SPEAKER: HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary. That was not the question, Sir. The question was, Do I understand from the han. gentleman's answer that the Public Service were not asked for or did not volunteer any input into these tenders? Tenders were called, tenders were received and then they had to be considered by somebody. Do I understand - and ! just want to get this clear - from the minister that the Public Service, the people in the Department of Public Works, had no input into the renting of space at Atlantic Place, that this was a political decision? HR.

SPEAKER: Works and Services. HR. BRETT: The hon. the Minister of Public The senior civil servants of the Department of Public Works had con~iderable input. They prepared the tenders, they made the recommendations to government, and the recommendations made by the senior civil servants were considered. And it was through their recommendations that the decision was made to ~o to 41.3

December 8, 1978 Tape ~To. 171 sc - 2 MR. BRETT: Atlantic Place. MR. )<EARY: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary question. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the hon. gentleman be prepared to table the recommendations of the appropriate officials of the Department of Public Works in connection with these tenders? MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: I will take that as notice, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister of Justice, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. That will not preclude the bon. gentleman from gettinp, back later. HR.

NEARY: Well, Sir, as a result of yesterday's disclosure, the Minister of Justice, I think, indicated to the llouse that he was ~oing to wait until the Mahoney Commission of Inquiry submitted their reports, even though we now know, to put it mildly, about irregularities and improper procedures, the minister says he is going to wait. Well, can the bon. the Minister of Justice assure the House that when the Mahoney Report is submitted that it will be made public, that it will be tabled in this House?

And will the minister take immediate action on that report after it is made public and tabled in this llouse or would he prefer that either the Leader of the Opposition or myself remind him of any commitment that he might make in this House? MR. HICKMAN: What? MR. NEARY; Mr. Speaker, I am asking the hon. 1entleman to undertake to give the House a commitment that the report will be made public, that the report will be tabled in this House. And ~rill the minister take immediate 41.4

December 8, 1978 Tape No. 171 EC - 3 HR. ~EARY: action upon any recommendations or any facts of irregularities or improper procedures or any crimes that may be committed? Will the minister then take immediate action? I am trying to get a commitment from the minister to the people of this Province, to the House that action will be taken. MR. SPEAKER: Mit. HICKMAN: The han. the l!inister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, when we getthe report, when government receives the report of Mr. Justice Mahoney and the Mahoney Inquiry, it will be dealt with effectively, properly, quickly - MR. W. N. ROWE: Like all the rest. MR.

HICKMAN: I am still waiting for a request from the han. gentleman opposite for action with respect to the last inquiry, the one by Chief Justice Furlong. MR. NEARY: HR. HICKMAN: outcome. SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Straits of Belle Isle. HR. ROBERTS: Minister of Fisheries. give him notice of it. What? Which one i~ that? The one you did not like the Oh, oh! The han. the member for the Mr. Speaker, a question for the I am sorry I was not able to I tried to reach him by telephone before the House met, but was not able to do so. ~y question arises out of the somewhat tangled affairs of a company 415

~eceDber 8, 1978 Tape No. 172 l~' - 1 Hh:!.ch I believe is or >ras :;."lot.ou as CaF Head l"ish.;ries Limited. I:: may i~ave cilanged its corporace aame. J:~1is COI!!pany, ~Ir. Speal:er, if I =Y have just a '•lord of ~:Qlunation, this company this Summer purc3ascd quite a q~tity of fish along the -:;!orthern Peninsular, en t:1e Western idde in the district of St. Barbe and in DY distric~. I :Ce:i,;ve .::~;:,~· purchased around 10 million pounds of fish, purc:1ased it as age:::.ts for the Canadian Saltfisb. Corporation snd/or Fisi1ery Products Limited.

The saltfish ~~ent to the corporation and ti1e fish that 1·ras processed in fish plants went to t:':le Fishery Products organization. !-tr. Speaker, tl1e problem is that th~ company, Co~~ Head Fisheries, has paid some c i: their bills vrl tl"l c:1eques •·rhic:l :1ave no~·l been returned by the banks, have been disi1onoureci, not been paid and ~he bank in the normal course are coming ~ack on tl1e people iavolved and the people involved have been in touch with me. Some of them are stuck with as mucl1 as $4,'JO:J or $."::,0'1rJ, I do not have a list. I :1ave asked for one. I am told I 1-Till eet it.

I Fill :;et ~;i1at information I can and I 1-Till make it available to the l1on. mi:l.ister. "!y quEstion is, is ti1ere ar.y way the minister can see the govermnec"lt beconing involved in tills? I understand from my own research that t:1e Co11 Head Fisi<eries l1.:1ve _to assets sufficient to cover thase cheques, have :10 expectation of gettiag any assats. In fact i ~mt.!erstand tl:c !Jroa<l arrow has been sta!!!ped on t!J.em cy the Internal I:.evenue aut:tor:!.ties :?.71C:. liational ~avenue author:!. ties.

So is there any "::ray in v'i.1ich the gover:li!lent ca:.:l act-because t~1c I,Jroblei:i. -:, .. ill Le :1ext year vhen t:1e fi:::hemen go to sell their fis:~, nnd 11) nil lion pounC:s is a ::;reat proportion of the fish caught in ti;at part of th.a ~lort::::.ern Peninsula, ~~r. Speaker. They are !lOt goi-:.lt; to sell for anything less than cash or a ver;' g::)()d c~teque ir,deed !3.1LY ,...:ay t:he ,:overn..rne;~.t car.~. step i.r... anC. iw.tervene, either to correct 416

D2ce~ber 8, 1978 '"l.. SPE.\..'CER: :!R. ~1. CARTE!'.: T~pe :~o. 172 ..... 4 nJ. this or to prevent it happening The :1on. 'linister of Fisheries. '~r. Speaker, I thank the hon. ~2~er for his question and the ~tter cf course he raised is a very unfortunate one. The operator of t~e Cow Read Fisheries Jied suddenly so~e months ago and left the company in a rather - 2 c:haotic condition. I do not 1--.nm,• really Hhat He can do. I h~ve ask2d ny people to take a look at it.

As a matter of fact ,it is ra~~ar ironic that the gentlenan that I assigned to look at the Cmr Head Fisheries situation, ~-1ho spe!lt some time down there, was the late '!r. Rupert Prince. Of course ue all !-:no~-7 that ~!r. Pri:1ce too diad suddenly just a fe~~ clays ago. But a~ain I have asked !!!)" p~nple to take a look at it and to find out ~-1hat, if anyt;1ing, 11e car. do. And it is a very serious !!latter. The company did in fact pur.-c.hase from fishermer.. c_round 10 million pounds, "::~1ich is a sizeable production and certainly one we carmot do without on that !_)art of the coast.

But I can assure my ;,on. ~riend and the peo';lle 'Nho are affected by the l'lant closing t:1at ,,,e r~ll do all "'e can to '"nsure that there ~vill be a buyer i_')_ the area ;ond if there ~~. SPZ . .'·.!3:'..: c.ontemplate tal·.ing <1.'-Y steps to er.sure tilat this does not lLapp.;.r. ir. tl.1~ future? !Iolv I ~not su;:gesti!"J.g '"c bonC fish coupa::..1y or require thero to put up deposits or somet~.ing, btJ.t t:le proble:rr. i;; .3. 3;rious one. Fisl~ere.an sell tj:teir ~ish i.o. i;OCC: c: ...... ~2l.~...u. course t~ey get paiJ and of course 3. great featurl:'. of ti1e Salt!:i.>h 41?

Dec~bcr ~. 1978 Tape No. 172 N:!! - 3 ~'.R. ?.OBJ:RTS: Corporation was tnat fisi1er:uen 1-rere guaranteed that they Hould tc. paid for their fish at an agreed '-lilOn price. Anu :1ere because of the intervention of an agent- and I do not use that term iu its legal context, Cow iiead Fis:1eries may or l!la.Y .:J.ot hs.ve beeu in law an ager:.t of :::,c ccr..,oration - but because of t~e interposition of Cow Head Fisheries beb~een the Saltfis~ Corpo~ation and the fis:,e~"'!llen, several fie:hercen ·' it may b.;,., I am told, as many as 100 in all along the entire coast, are out cf pocl~t substantial.

SUI!'.s of money 1·7hich represent a large part of their year's earnings. The banks are not going to make it good, obviously, That leaves us 1nth either the gove=ent or the fishermen or the Saltfish Corporation bearing their loss. Is tl1ere any ~;ay that that loss can be spread around? It is an awful blow to a fisaerDJ.Bn to see t:l~enty or thirty per cant of ~1is year's income gone in the form of a cheque t:ut l1as been dishonoured because the company cannot pay it. ::R. SPE.<\..'<ER: :m.. H. CARTE::t: The hon. Xi.11ister of Fisi1eries. :rr. Speaker, fortunately t!lis sort of thir.g does not happen too often.

This is one of these rare cases ~mere certai~y iu the past five or ten years - :-'F.. TI.OBERTS: c·"P.. 1<. CARTE"-: (inaudibl !) do~m in Labrador South. Yes, the fis!1i•1Z :L.-:.dus try is reaso,lably prosperous rlzht now a:1d not very ofte:1 docs a compar.:· go ba.nS4rup t a..'l.d I suspect that 1·1ere it not fnT" the suddea passin!l; of the operator of that plant t~1at this ~vould u.ot ;,ave happer:~d.

But certair~y I 2.m prepared to have my people take a look at it anC: if t:1cre ts sot".e cTay t!'lat a compe..'ly can b~ ':>or.ded or the fishermen's <;ages guaranteed I ':<ill certainly look into it and see v!hat can be dor..e. '!!L SPE.A."<ER: T'.1e han. member for :lellevue. ![r. Spealr-2r, I had a question for the ~!inister of Tourisn, 1•ho is not in hi:; :-lace right ·.'lo\~. ~~e Has a fe,.-.r :!li.nutes ago. I Co r..ot k~o~r 'l;,~h3.t ~1e is Coi::.z :_.,ut that is 41.8

December 8th., 1978 Tape N'o. 173 Dl-1 - 1 :lR. CALLAN: the former ~~inister of Tourism who is now occupying the present minister's chair. Perhaps, the Deputy Premier can answer the question. As I say, I would much prefer to have the Minister of Tourism himself answer the one or two questions that I have.I was going to ask the Minister of Tourism ' whether or not he had a poached egg for breakfast. I noticed egg on his face when he was in earlier but of course that would be unfair because poaching as he knows is illegal in this Province. MR. SPEAKER: Order ,, please !

I would hope now the hon. gentleman will proceed to a question. 'lR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, my question comes fram page 9, paragraph 5 of the most recent Speech from the Throne.

They all look alike but the most recent one on page 9,paragraph 5 where it says, 11 ~1easures will be devised to caunbat," it seems like a big fight, "flagrant extensive poaching, and game laws. will be rigidly enforced." I want to aSk the Deputy Premier~! suppose,since the Minister of Tourism is not here, I want to ask what measures does government have in mind to combat what they call the'flagrant,extensive poaching' that is going on in this Province- I am not talking about eggs.I am talking about game, wildlife. l'hat measures does the government have in mind? }!R. SPE.AKEll: P'on. minister.

"~· HICIO!:A.-''1: li'ould the hon. gentleman repeat the question because I really was not paying - I 1>7aS being distracted and I am not sure if it deals with eggs or wild games for the Liberals. 'JR. CALLAN: llildlife, wildlife, "hat ll'easures. '!r. Speaker, let me <::.sk - SPEAKER: Supplementary. !1R. ~.~LLA~T: 1-!ell, I do not know if it is a supplementary or not but let me repeat the question on page 9, paragraph 5,

chapter 4, verse 2, 'why beholdst thou the mote'. It says, "Measures will be devised to combat flagrant,extensive poaching,ann game laws will be rigidly enforced." It is under ~~ildlife. "'hey are talking ahout the poaching of wildlife that is going on in this Province 419

Jecember 8th., 1978 Tape ~o. 173 !JW - 2 and government plans to use some measures - metric measures I assume? What kind of measures? What measures? 'IR. SPEAYJ:R: Ron. minister. ~. f!IC:::MAN: Hr. Speaker, the government views with the gravest disquietude any flagrant poaching that is carried on ~1ith respect to our wildlife and areas that fall within the jurisdiction of the Province • .t\nd ~~e will see to it that the laws are enforced fairly, equitably and in the best interest of not only protecting our wildlife but anyone else who may be within gunshot of the han. gentleman opposite. HR..

CALLAN: A supplementary, ~r. Speaker. !!F.. SPEAKER: Final supplementary. The han. gentleman for LaPoile after the supplementary. '1R • CALLAN : of Justice this question - Al! HON. ~IBER: '!It. CALLA~l: }!r. Speaker, let me ask the ~~inister Is this a supplementary? That is what it is.

In view of the fact that it tvas this government that started the crazy mess ~vhen the~· introduced the draw system for big game licenses and therefore completely confused and utterly tormented hundreds and thousands of hunters ~vho had hunted all their lives and who have not been successful in obtaining a big game license for the past five or six years~in view of that fact~which has competely turned them off?and in view of the fact that it was this government that last year introduced a 420

December 8,1978 Tape 174 Pk - 1 Mr. Callan: hunter capability programme- this year they call it a Hunter Safety; last year it was a Hunter Capability programme which had no instruction given,just a test. If you go to take a driver ' s test you get instruction, if you go to· school and you take an exam you get instruction, but no instruction,just a test, which again many honest,decent,qualified hunters failed because they did not know what the test was all about and so they fai led it, honest people who had hunted for years and years, in view of that second f~c~, and also, Mr.

Speaker, and especially in this year, the lOOth. anniversary of the introduction of moose to this Province, in view of the fact that there is a total lack of education to the people in this Province,! ask the minister does he not agree that government, this government, this administration must accept a large part of the responsibility for the poaching the flagrant, the intensive poaching that is going on in this Province? This government is to blame for the poaching. They have left the hunters with no other choice. They cannot get a licence legally . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. gentleman had a fairly long

preamble before he got to his question. There is no need for one after the question. The han. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: I thank the han. gentleman for the supplementary question and his attempt to answer same. I have to confess that I do not know what the question is, but my

interpretation of the

preamble is that some people failed in the Hunter Safety programme test. But if hundreds failed thousands passed, and if thousands passed the test, if thousands passed the test - MR. PECKFORD: MR. HICKMAN: MR. PECKFORD: SOME HON. MEMBERS: He is 3gainst women, boy! Women? Matrimonial property law. Oh, oh! 421

December 8, 1978 Tape 174 PK - 2 MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker', I am being harassed. I must have the protection of the Chair, because the hon. gentleman over there may have some bow and arrow that he is going to aim at me, and I am particularly concerned about that because I suspect he did not pass a Hunter Safety test himself. 1-R. CALLAN: !'«. HICKMAN: MR. CALLAN: That is what you think. But on the assumption - The minister had to go back and try a second time, the Minister of. Tourism. MR. HICKMAN: Who me? MR. CALLAN: We saw him on television. MR. HICKMAN: The only time I ever - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

HICKMAN: In any event, Mr. Speaker, I have heard nothing but applause and accolades for the government in its introduction of the Hunter Safety programme, because obviously - AN HOM. MEMBER: Where have you been? MR. HICKMAN: Where have I been? Well,I have to confess that I have never tried to shoot a moose or a caribou in my life. We have got a fair herd of caribou now on the Burin Peninsula.

I think they are protected; certainly they are safe from me,I can tell you thatt and that I have no intention to go out trying to shoot one of the poor animals, and I am certainly not going to take that Hunter Safety programme because I will fail it. I know I will fail it. I do not know how to hold a silly gun. do not know what to do with the trigger so I am going to fail. But I do congratulate the thousands and thousands of Newfoundlanders. both men and women, who passed this very proper and so widely approved and widely acclaimed test.

Now what the Hunter Safety programme has·to do with poaching is beyond my comprehension. But I gather again from the long

preamble, and I am sure that hon. gentlemen want a detailed response to this. I can see the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) nodding 422

December 8, 1978 Tape 174 PK - 3 Mr. Hickman: in agreement. I am assUIIling that anyone· who fails the Hunter Safety p.rogra11111e then is quali ·fied to poach. But how can you poac~ if you cannot shoott _ SOME HO.N. MEMB.ERS: . Oh. oh! MR. HICIQIIAN: - how can you poach if you do oot know how to pull a gun and aim it in the right direction; which this failure of the test would have proven beyond all reasonable doubt is the case.

Now with that very lucid and short and clear explanation, if th.ere is any other infonnation that the hon. gentleman would 1 ike for me to give to the House, either he can do ft by way of a written question or maybe another short supplementary. AN HON. MEMBER: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: recognize Order, please! I had indicated I would 423

December 8.1978 Tape No. 175 ah-1 ~. SPEAKER: the hon. member for LaPoile next followed by the member for St. John's '!-Test. MR. NEARY: The Minister of Public Works just went by the door. Sir. I hope he will come into his seat because I have a couple of more questions I want to put to him about Atlantic Place.

I will start off by asking the hon. gentleman if in accordance with the agreement to rent space in Atlantic Place that all the government has done is to rent four floors that could be described as a shell. it is just a shell. there are no partitions up or anything like that. t~o will be responsible for putting up the partitions and the painting and decorating and the electrical and the plumbing? Who will be responsible for this work? Is it correct that the thing now is just a shell? Somebody has to now turn it into office space. Who will be responsible for that work? ¥R. SPEAKER: Minister of Public Works.

MR.BRETT: The Department of Public Works will be responsible. Mr.Speaker. but that is scandard procedure. If the government were to rent office space that had anything more than the four walls and the ceiling and the floor then the rate would be much, much higher. The same thing is true of GEH Roldin~s vhere ue are rentb.:s two floors. It is the same thing:you have your four walls. ¥.R. NEARY: A supplementary question. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Hould the minister indicate to the House how much these changes and renovations are going to cost the taxpayers of this Province? }fR.

SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. BFETT: I do not have -~he answer to that question now. Mr. Speaker, but I will take notice of it.and try to get it for the hon. gentleman. 424

December 8,1978 !"lt. NEARY: 'MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Tape No, 175 ah-2 Mr. Speaker,a supplementary. A supplementary. Would the hon. gentleman indicate to the Rouse if any of the work has already been allocated to any company, any electrical companies, any mechanical companies, any construction companies,or will public tenders be called and the contracts awarded to the lowest bidder? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. MR. BRETT: ~~. Speaker, public tenders are now being prepared. We expect to call tenders on December 20th and I would assume they will be awarded to the lowest bidder. MR.

NEARY: A final supplementary, Sir. Can the minister assure the House that public tenders will be called for 100 per cent of the work, apart from something that the government may do itself, the government employees may do, 100 per cent of the work that is necessary to be done to convert this building into office space? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. MR. BFETT: I will answer to the best of my knowledge, Sir.

Tender will be called for 100 per cent of the work. ~t the moment we are preparing tenders for the three floors only because originally we ·~re not aware of the fact that Transrortation, Communications and Public Works would become one department. It was intended that Manpower and Labour would go to Atlantic Place but now they are going to GEM Holdings and Public Works and Services and Transportation and Communications are going to Atlantic Place, therefore we have had to make some changes in our plans. So first we are calling tenders for three floors and later on we will call tenders for the other floor. MR.

NEARY: supplementary. }fR. SPEAKER: Mi.. NEARY: A supplementary question. A final A final supplementary. The hon. gentleman really raised this question, Sir, as a result of his answer. Did I understand correctly 425

December 8,1978 Tape No. 175 ah-3 "MR. NEARY.: f:rom the hou. gentlemau that a whole floor in Atlantic Place that is be:Ulg paid for by the taxpayers of this Pr.ovince will be left vacmt for an indefinite period of time? That was the implication that the hou. gentleman gave in his answer, Si.r. I want the hon. gentleman to clarify it.

The hou. gentleman said ouly three floors would be couvetted into office space at the 11l01111!Dt, that the Department of Trsnsportat"iou was not go:Lng in there as originally planned and some other departmentan.d, that nothing would be doue with that floor for a certaiu period of time. Well then do we get a credit for that from the owners? Wtll the govetnlllent ld.ck itself in the rear end for making a mistake and renting too much space in the first place? Very poor plann;f.ng, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member. MR. BRETT Mr. Speaker, that is not correct at all.

What I mean is simply this: Tenders are being prepared now for three floo .rs. Ten,ders for .the other floor could follo~~ 426

December 8, 1978 Tape No. 176 EC - 1 XR. IlRETT: within a week after that. There will be no space left vacant. We require all four floors. It just means that tenders will be ready for the three floors before the fourth one, that is all. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary, Sir. HR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member realize that the last time I recognized him it was on a final supplementary? And I would put our practices in doubt if we were to have two finals. The hon. the member for St. John's West, I have indicated I will recognize, and then the hon. the member for St. George's. DR. KITCHEU: Mr.

Speaker, my question is addressed to the Minister of Finance. I addressed the question yesterday to the Minister of Consumer Affairs and when we passed on a request that the Virginia Park Homeowners Association be financially assisted in preparing their very necessary case to seek appropriate compensation, and they need certain technical assistance in ~etting their case ready and they need some cash, and the Minister of Consumer Affairs said he was not a spending department.

Now there are only $3.5 million in the Budget for Consumer Affairs, but I was wondering if the Minister of Finance could look through the Budget, look through the money that they have, and direct the appropriate department, whether it be Housing or what, whether he would be prepared to find the cash to enable the government to give a grant to this Homeowners Association to prepare their case in the same manner as they fund other organizations to prepare their case, like the Federation of Municipalities, and so on, to prepare their case when consumers are being ripped off? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister. 427

December 8, 1978 Tape No. 176 EC - 2 MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, the only way I can answer the question put by my hen. friend is that it is not our intention to supply any money, at least under the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. There is no provision by which we can do that.

However, one suggestion I have, and I have instructed my officials to make this information available to the Homeowners, and I will be making it available to them in more detail, is that the case is being documented, and well documented, by my officials and I might say that that has been ongoing since back as far as August when my predecessor, the former Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, whose district, in fact, Virginia Park is in, saw to it that some initiatives were taken then in preparation of any case that might be made or it might be necessary to make to CMHC.

That work is ongoing, and I can assure my hen. friend that I have some of it, one aspect of it, wherein it is fairly well documented. And in response more definitively to his question.

I can tell him that we, ourselves, I am now able to say. have some concerns because something in the order of thirty units may be involved, for which the Province has a 25 per cent equity, and for that reason we have been documenting a case on behalf of the provincial government and likewise we will provide any assistance necessary, any of the staff that are necessary, the engineering people , any other professional people that are required.

We will be making it known to the Homeowners, if they do not already know, that my staff stands ready to assist in any way, shape or form in terms of a solicitor, in terms of engineering people or anybody else that is required to put forth the strongest case which will be taken at least on their behalf 1 by myself if necessary, to the federal minister if we do not meet with success when we go to Central Mortgaging and Housing. 428

Dece111ber 8, 1978 liR . SPEAKER: St. George's. ~RS. MciSAAC : Tape No. 176 EC - 3 The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, my question is really for the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, but sicce be has not been here thi s week, I will direct it to ei ther the Deputy Premier or possibly the Minister of Rur al Deve lopment~or whoever can answer it. It is with respect to a vegetable marketing agency, and in the past few Speeches from the Throne it was demonstrated that the go vern ment intended to set up a purchasing and marketing agency, which bas not to my knowledge been done, but I would like to know if 429

Jec~~er 8, 1978 Ta;>e No. !77 :::! - 1 the Vegetacle 'la r l:.etir:g As:;oc:!.at es L!..~ted ,-.~o !lave t!le.ir he:ldquarters .in oo twooo, !.s :!.n :m:r •;;q cor.!lec :ed or re!)resent!.ng t!:e ?Urchasir.s and ::lar~eti.:lg :og~nc:'J t~at • .,as supposed to be set U? by governc:e::~t? If so, I ~lot:U li!:~ c:u.s infomation. A!!d if :lot I uould like to :.Wo~~ 1:: c·,ore i~ ~Y so~rncect ~oney ~valved ir. settina up ~~is Vecetable '!arketinr: J\ssoc:!.ntes Limited i."l !loo,'OOd, n."lc if so !1ot1 '"'!t:c!~? '4}!. . Sl'E.~.KER: '!'R. RIC<!'AN: The hon . '·'ir..i.s-:er o€ 'P:!.nar.ce. ~r. Spea!'.er.

I ·..dll have to t:!.l:e "tote of t~at ques ticn cecause ! heve :10t hez rd of t~e ~r~aniz~tior: the hon. !l:e::lber is referring to. But ! will as!~ SOl!'eO:ll! !.~ the Derar.=:ent of A<;riculture to tlig out t:l:e i."lfo'l:'l'!Ult!.o:t and ~~o -,ef•Jll!' ue c:&! bzve 1~ Ce fo~~ the nouse adjou'!'":ls ;te."'t': '-'ee" .. .

ORD~RS np TEE DAV: '0) . • SIC~AN: '!otion L l'fotion l. ::lotion , the !:cr.. t:ll~ :!inister of :~!.ces nnd :;:er:;r; ::o introduce e bill, "f...r. l·.ct ::o Fecil:Lte.:c Tb~ J~vc!c:?r-~:.: Cf '!'he EyC:.rc-Elcct:-ic Pot;er Pote:~tial Cf 7!':e Lot:er r.::.::.-c!-:~11 :t;..-e::.­ iia!:i .:t ," carried. (Ili!l ~!o. S) . 0<1 ::10t:.on, ~111 ao. B :.-ae<! s. :"irs.: ~izle o r t.~=cc reaC: a seco:1d time on ;:o.norr-, :~ . :~otioc ~. :k> tio~, t:le :~on. c:1~ ::.::.cis :cr of ?i:tna c~ to i,ll:ro..iucC:: a bill, "ft.n t\Ct ':o h.r;.~;l= ::to.

I:.creas~ ·.'.' ~ ">e::s.!.o:u Act, 19.:!,'' ca=ri~d. (SL.l ·:a . 2) O:l ~:.ion, :ill :·~c . ~ =t..J..: :t f:.rs: ::i.-:o o .:t~reC. reo.C:. ~ seco nd ti::!e o:t ::o:uo'!.":.-:>~i'. Justice to introdu ce a jill . "A:l .rice ':o .!.ce:lC iL~~ rirc P:-ev~:tticr: Act," carried. ('3ill ~!o . 3) 0::: :::o ::ior:, Bill ::c.. 3 reac a firs: ;::~~ urLarcL rPn~ ~ saco :1d ;:i~~ 0:1 t~~r=~~. 430

~ecember S, l£7G Tape ~;o. 177 2 ~:otion 4. :~tion, the :1on. tile ~11nister of Ccns'..!Der Affairs and Envi::-o=ent ::o i."ltroducc a bill, "ft.n Act To Amen.d 7:'1.e Departme1:.t of Consumer ,!...ffairs And Enviro=ent Act, 1973," carried. (Ell:!. No. 5) On motion, Bill ~o. 5 read a first time ordered read a secane ti= en tomo:::ro• : . 1:;::., HICJ.\HAN: Order 1, tUe adjourned debate on tue A~dress in Reply. !·':R. SPEAKE?..: Order 1, tha sdiourr.ed debate on tile Address in Reply. T.1e bon, ~~nister of Fisheries. ''R. H. CAP.TER: lir.

Speaker, before I adjourn the deh.:.te · yeste:rday")I •las tall:ing about tl1e m.:1tter of federal/ provincial relatior . .3 and tile matter of consultation bet1veen both gove~ents on matters of importance such as the fishing indust~r. I '1ave only got a few minutes of my time left so maybe I can conclude my few remarks oy elaborating sti.::.l further on t:.at very iz:lportant :::natter. !~r.

Speaker, I indicated yester:i.:.y that it is going to be awfully difficult for any Provincial cfinister of Fisheries, whether it is in cle•lfoundlanJ, :~ova Scotia, or any of the oth~r Atlantic Provinces, to develop the kind of hannoni::>us relations ui th th~ federal r.tinis ter tc~at !:laybe in c:1c ~~a~ of some people is desi:::able and necessa~· ~1d I aM not bl~g the federal ninister for that.

Of course I = not blaming t:le provinciAl ninisters either. ~:aybe the fact, :·lr. :3peakar. tiu;:.t ;.Tc are at time~, as the press sometimes say, at loggerheads maybe proves on.e thing, tilat uc are all nay be trying too ltard to do our respective jobs. .\nd t~e federal minister of course is responsibl~ for t~e .:tc!mi::J.istration of the fisheries poltci~s of :tis governl!lent on tiJ.a '.Jroad prospective, on ~h.il Atlantic Provinces ;:rosrective . liith respect 431.

~eceoeer 8, 1978 Tape ~o . 177 :::~ - 3 ·!' ... ~~. CARTE'!t: to th~ prcvi.::ces th~n of course ~te :~ve :crtain =esponsibllities as wall, ce rt~ jurisdictions ~,d ·.•e must ~eve r.reate r concern ~or ~J:u;.c !:appens in our renpective provinces tha::~ of course twe_~.;ould 1·ritt. respect ~o ::~": 1 ~i::.r. is hap!'eni::g i..'l other parts of t!le Atlantic Cana~. A:ld aeain ! ~ ~o apology for that fact. But certaL~y I beliave that n ~tter - :!e·.riound lc!llc, !-!r. Speak er, is cne of the last sto r e ­ houses of 432

December 8, 1978 Tape 178 PK - 1 Mr. W. Carter: renewable resources probably on the North American Continent. Certainly one of the greatest. One resource of course that is very important to all of us, a renewable resource, is the fishery. Fish is to Newfoundland, not as much to other Atlantic Provinces, but certainly to Newfoundland what wheat would be to the Pra~rie Provinces, oil and gas to Alberta, the manufacturing industry to Ontario and Quebec, and that is why, Mr.

Speaker, we cannot possibly afford the luxury of just sitting back and allowing all of the decisions that are made affecting that very important industry to be made in Ottawa without due consultation with the Province or without allowing the Province to have the proper input into the decision-making process. This government, Mr. Speaker, as the records indicate we are putting a lot of emphasis on the development of our resources.

For example, in 1950 the net expenditure,both under current and capital account, on fisheries development was $129,000; in 197l,the last year of the former administration,the total or at least the net expenditure under all headings by that government on fisheries was $2.3 million, a little more than $2.25 million. In 1978-1979 the net expenditure under current and capital accounts on fisheries was $18.5 million, an increase, M~. Speaker, like I said, from $2.3 million in 1970-1971 as opposed to $18.5 million in 1978-1979. And so the story goes, Mr. Speaker.

This government we have been criticized by members opposite for maybe being too aggressive, maybe doinq thinqs that we should not be doing, maybe encroaching on jurisdictions and in areas where we had no business encroaching, certainly in view of the hon. members opposite. But again, Mr. Speaker, I make no apology for that fact. I belive, that we have a responsibility, and as minister I have a responsibility to take whatever initiatives we deem necessary to ensure that the fishing industry is properly developed and developed of course for the benefit of our Newfoundland people. I get very little consolation, Mr.

Speaker, from the fact that many thousands of tons of our fish continue to be harvested by foreign countries within our 200 mile limit, the reason, of course, 433

December 8, 1978 Tape 178 Pk - 2 Mr. W. Carter: being given that we do not have the necessary harvesting capability to harvest the total allowable catch that is there to be had. And I do not think, Mr. Speaker, we can allow that situation to continue.

I think we have a responsibility, a very serious responsibility and an obligation to ensure that we do provide the necessary catching effort in order that some day down the road, and hopefully nnt in the too distant future we will be able to harvest, if not all certainly the largest part, the majority of the allowable catch is that will be established by our scientists between, at least within our 200 mile limit. The federal scientists, Mr. Speaker. project that within six years our fish stocks will increase in certain areas, in certain species by about 400 per cent.

And certainly the provinces have an obligation to come forth with plans, proposals that will ensure that as much of that fish as possible is landed in our Province for the benefit of our people. The plan that we announced just recently, Mr. Speaker, will do just that. It is a long range plan, one that will take us into 1985 and beyond, one that covers everything pretty well from the harvesting sector to the processing sector, secondary processing, marketing. and, of course, promotional campaigns that will be undertaken commencing in 1979. And that is the sort of thing, Mr.

Speaker, that the provinces should be doing. And I am rather amused sometimes to read editorials in certain newspapers, and one in particular; we were criticized for dearing to come forward with a P.lan, and maybe in being a little too aggressive 434

December 8, 1978 Tape No. 179 EC - 1 :1R. l-1. CARTER: while the same people who were editoralizing a few months ago complaining that the Province did not have a fishery plan, and that kind of inconsistency, Mr. Speaker, is rather amusing. The fact of the matter is that we have put together a plan. We are going to take certain initiatives, just about all of which are within the provincial domain in terms of jurisdiction. And we have consulted with Ottawa.

I tabled a document in the House a few days ago in which I indicated or at least I listed the sequence of events that have taken place in the past twelve months with respect to our anxiety or at least our desire to consult with Ottawa and to keep the national government fully up to date on the status of our plans and exactly what we were doing and how we were thinking. In fact, I made reference then to a letter that I sent to my counterpart in Ottawa back before these studies commenced, last February sometime, requesting that he allow his Director General in the Province, Mr.

Len Cowley, to serve on a steering committee that was put together by our department to guide the various studies that were about to be undertaken. Regretfully, Mr. Speaker, Mr. LeBlanc did not see fit to accede to that request. Maybe he had his own reasons for it, I do not know, but certainly we would have welcomed the presence of a senior fedaral official on that steerinp, committee. we fnrwarded to the departments concerned in Ottawa, the Department of Regional and Economic Expansion and to the Department of Fisheries, copies of our reports, both reports, just twenty days after we received thet:! ourselves.

We received these reports, Mr. Speaker, the final draft on September 1st, I beli~ve it was, or September 4th, and twentv days laxer both were sent to the federal government departments concerned as well as to the Fishermen's Union and to other sectors of the fishin~ 435

December 8, 1978 Tape No. 179 EC - 2 MR. ~L CARTER: industry, the Fresh Fish Association as well as the Salt Fish Processors Association. So I do not know what elRe we can do, Mr. Sneaker, in terms of consultation. I sometimes get the impression that some hon. members and certain other people outside of this House attach a definition to the word 'consultation' that is absolutely unacceptable to me. I had no intention of doing what some people suggest maybe we should be doing. I think that Newfoundland has certain rights as a Province.

I think we must protect those rights, we must not allow ourselves to become totally subservient to any other province or to Ottawa. I cannot for the life of me see other provinces, Quebec included, or the Prairie Provinces or Alberta or Ontario allowing undue interference by their national government into their economies. It is rather unfortunate, I suppose, in a sense that the fishing industry with its divided jurisdiction is difficult to administer in the Province without some overlapping of jurisdictions. But an industry, Mr.

Speaker, that plays such a dominant role in the economy of our Provine~ affects the lives of almost every single Newfoundlander, an industry that accounts for the largest number of people in terms of employment - the single largest employer of people - an industry that will determine the future well-being or otherwise of the 300 or 400'Newfoundland communities that depend on the fishing industry for their existence, it is unfortunate that maybe there is such control over certain aspects of that industry resting in the hands of the federal government.

Because the provinces must have the right to do their own thing in certain areas, and certainly when it comes to matters affecting the economy of the Province such as that affected in such matters as the fishinp. industry, then we must be able to make certain decisions ourselves and to do our own thing. Mr. Speaker, I think my time has just 436

necember 8th., 1978 Tape ~To. 180 D~7 - 1 mt. W. CARTEJI: about expired but I want to stress once more, ~tr. Speaker, that I am rather proud of the fact that ~1ew­ foundland is now progressing to a point where we are the envy of other provinces in terms of fishery development. I was rather flattered the other day in Ottawa to have been approached by the new Premier of ~ova Scotia, Premier Buchanan, ~mo asked me would I be satisfied to have a long chat with his Hinister of Fisheries, if he "'ere to send him down·here.

The Premier of Nova Scotia, he wa~ted to get a f~~ ideas as to how they should go about maybe putting some of their plans together and getting their thinking straigtened out as well. MR. S. NEARY: nid you eet them out of the gulf and out of the Bay St. Geor~e area? ~'R. W. CARTER: The matter of the gulf fishery, Yr.

Speaker, is something that has got to be of concern to most Newfoundlanders 1 certainly people in the fishing industry. ~~e did discuss the problems that are looming in terms of the condition of the stocks in the gulf area and at that time we did 7in fact 7 agree to support the ~inister of Fisheries in his desire to take some kind of action to ensure that the stocks were protected and that overfishing would not do to that area •1hat it has done to so ma~y areas around the Province. The lesser of two or three evils Mr.

Speaker, was to maybe impose a ,moratorium or a freeze on new entrants, fishing in the gulf for a two or three montr. period. I reluctantly agreed to that proposition for the gulf area only and the idea was that there tmuld be a freeze placed on the new entrants into the gulf area for a three month period to give the scientists a chance to have another look at the figures and re-assess the data that is being com~iled with respect to the condition of the stocks in the gulf area. "\R. S. ~!F.APY: ~ • W. CARTER: Has it ever been public?

Oh, it Tias been made public.! ~ave announced it myself, the ¥1nister of Fisheries in Otta•ra announced that fact. ~fr. Speaker, that all of the Atlantic Provinces ministers reluctanly agreed to that proposition. The~e t•ere a number of alternatives and that was the least objectionable as far as I am concerned and as far as my 437

~ecember 8th., 1978 Tape ~o. 180 DP - 2 :::r... L CARTER: Atlantic Provinces counterparts were concerned. I repeat;it was only going to be for a two or three month period,! think February was L~e deadline., That, of course, would not have seriously affected the fishing in that area because as we all knm.; during that time of the year because of climatic conditions, ice conditions that the fishing activity is pretty well at a mininum • • ~'l HON. }!E:!ffiER: NR. H. CARTER: The upper part up off the Port au Choix and that area there is very little fishing - Where? In the gulf? !·ffi.. l ~.

CA.'tTER: I am talking abaut doun :m the south~.;est coast of the Province. Of course, there is a lot of activity there but again it would be very unlikely that too many people ~•ould be affected by that freeze in such a short period. It would not affect it all .. HR. T • RIDEOUT: ~lR. 11. CARTER: Sure that is the peak season in that area, the south shore area. No , but it would not have affected, ~·!r. Speaker, the existing fishermen, the fishermen who have licenses to fish no~• in boats,it would have only affected,for that three month period,pe6ple who wanted to get into the fishery, new entrants.

Unfortunately, llr. Speaker, the federal minister saw fit to impose a total ban on new entrants on the <ttlantic coast with the exception,of course,of Labrador. Again, maybe it is necessary, I do not lcnow,I am certainly not in possession of sufficient information, scientific data to - ~. S. NEARY: ~IR. t~. CARTER: Are you for it or against it? I would find it difficult, lfr. Speaker, to support that proposition.! am not in possession of all of the facts, the scientific facts that one w·ould have to see to make that kind of a judgement - MR. R. SIMMONS: Did you make a judgement anyway? mL W.

CARTER: It might well be~ Mr. Speaker, that the federal minister - '!'X. R. SI~ONS: The minister made a statement on it. ~!R . H. CARTER: I made a statement on it and I repeat noH I have strong reservations as to · the need for imposing that kind of a freeze on new entrants. 438

December 8t.i.., 1978 ~!R. s. m:ARY: reservation, ~1hat that means? 2-tR. W. CARTER: Tape ~To. 180 J:IH - 3 Would the min.is ter explain that strong On the basis of the information that I have, Hr. Speaker, at 'lily disposal I could not support that kind of a freeze on the fishing industry 'sOn the 1mol.e Atlantic Coast. I Und it ·difficult ~r. Speaker, to recORcile myself - !'R. S • ~"EARY :· conVll.nced. You have an open min,d, you cou1d be }fit. W. CARTER: I repeat if there is sufficie .nt scientific data, ¥.r.

Speaker, tha,t would justify that kind of action it might well be I could go atltmg with it, But on the basis of what I know now - }IR.. s. NEARY: You might be persuadeil. The ttame of the song - what is it? HR. R. SIMMONS: MR. S. NEARY: . 'f. . l~ . CARTER : Almost persuaded. Almost persuade d . !<e l l , no 439

December S, 1978 ~~. H. CARTER: mt. sr."YcONS: ~~. ~~. CARTER: that ~ind of action. 'J!L KIT em~: '·<:R. H. CAP.TE~: Tape Xo. 181 not really, r.o:: c;uite, :;r. Spea:;cer. Almost got lest. I find it difficul~ to r8conci~e Bad policy. I find it difficult to reconcil~ that !d. .. "'l.d of action 'rhen I hear reports from Fogo Isla."'lc:l and from ~.ost cotm:!lunities on the Northeast Coast that las~ year ~-ras a lou."'!!per year, certainly no scarcity of fish in that area. I find it difficult to '!Ccept that position ant! I hnve <;aid this ~ublicly, ~·hen ~,·e realize, ~'.r.

Speaker, th.at forei~ effort continues to ravish the resources ~<T-tthi!l our 201) mile l:!:!!lit. 1-JP. h~ve be~!l tcld that you cannot. of course ~Y'e ell know that you cannot,,..atc:, cotlfish !:':lice, =d if you catc:1 it an the Ramilton ila.1:u ,o1: if t:1e foreigners cetc:1 it on t:1e Ha."Jilton Ea~s, that: fish ~-Till clOt come ashore to be at t:1e disposal of the fishermen on Pogo Isl=ci, en the Northeast Coast. But yet, :-1r. Speaker, iu l97S,70 million pour.cis of fish, 35, :J:JO tons ~o1ill be caught by forei::;n effort '.rit:lin our Z:JO mile limit.

Js,C.1 in fact, if you were to include the !·.!OS t :~orthem areas you car. add to that figur::. another 17, 'JOJ uetr:c to~, another 34 million ~ou..J.ds. That ~;ould be r-.:2._ .t~ • ·:o lC·~ milli..~~l po"..l:lds of fis:1. t:1at vrill be caugi1t iu. 1973 in t.i.1e are.:::. i.Jat":·7een :lori:~'lern Labrador =d off the Southern tip of t:1e Avalc1n f'eni:J.sula, caug~t by foreign vessels. ~~y positiOl!-I ru..r~o.e 1.1)"' pusitior .. :1_uite cl.e~r,I tl1.iw.k,whan. the minister in Ottawa an:..1.ounced ::1is i:1te.ntion ~o impose the freeze.

In rry vie't·l they should, ra.the:= ::.hs. .. l put tir-J,e; ~ ban.,L1..3.ybe7 or a freeze o:-.:. our ~!ewfour .. J.land. fisl1en.!e!!, t::xcept 7 :i.ayte,iTI. tlle Gulf area for a short period, that they s:1.aulcl tr.:lybe put a moratoriun Q:l any furtl1.er fore.igr .. fis:ting effort 1;rlt'i1il1 owr 2.C:J rai.i:2 lir.Li~ u .. 1til t:1.e .::tacks have been suffici2::...1.t:ly rebuilt, t:J .:.voi::i :h~t \.i:1d of ~ fr2eze on our ov..""n fisherreen. T:'lat was -;;:;.y positio~1 tl:..:n &C. tl1at ::s :7l.y :..,osi tior.. ~lOW. 440

Jecember 3, 1973 Tape C/o, U]l It se~ ra.t2r ironic, Hr. Spe!a:.:er, th~t ~..re a:loW.d oe talking about putting a freeze on He~~fot.:nd:.a.J.C. fis;•er.nE.n on our :~ortheast Coast, ~•hile at the same time within a fe~v miles of~our shores foreign vessels can continue to fis'1 and to :1arvest and take back to their respective countries lluge r:uantities of fish for the ~enefit of their m-rn. people) fis~ that,i:l. fact_,.si:.cull~ and could be landed in t:lis Province for the benefit of our ~•e~vfoundl.:md people. T:~at is the sort of t:rl.:J.g, Mr. Speal'..ar, ve luve to take a strong hard look at.

Another matter, of course, is the ousi::ess of fleet replacement. I am not aware of any defiuitive policy yet having come from Ottawa ·with respect to fleet replacement. Certainly there is no policy from Ottawa dealing with fleet expansion,and I .:!m not :::uggesting that we s'lould expand the fleet to a"':ly great extent, but there are areas where tl1e fleet can be a.-,;:pandeJ. and certainly He must start now to replace the fleet.

We hhve in this Province a let of vessels that are pretty well beyond their retirement age a."l.d unless ,,re :r-lan now to build neTv ships I am afraid that tvb.en t.'le stocks are rebuilt, sa0• in 1985, that our fishing fleet ~rlll be depleted, >r!d T~e uill then be forced to defer to foreign countries i.n the harvesting of that regenerated resource. And if He do that,of course,that tdll be a very unfortunate matter. He in :::!ewfoundland, :'r.

Spea:~e:r, not to oent:!.on the Atlantic Provinces, we should be laying a!: out a.."lywhere from seven to ten keels a year for tra.vler:; i£ He are ~oin.<:; to keep e..breast of i·lhat ~·Te have at t!' .. e :>resent tirv-.e 2nd ensur~ tnac. hy l ')~5, ,-.rhi~~ is the date tl-:at t~1c s !:ocks wi:!.l ::-.e substantially increased, tnat He are going to be able to harvest t:1at resourc£. .\nd if :Je do u.ot take that action now, if ue Jo not start no>' to acquire additional f~3hing effort and to ensure tha~ existing s~ips ~s t:1ey leave t~e service are replaced, ~rell t!1e::.

I a.-·n afraid t'ilat ue •rill !:Je bad·. <;hare ece started at that ti:oe. 'F. SPEAJ::ER (D~. COLLINS): ~he: :1.cr~. ge!.1tle~au' s tine :~s el9.~sed. Tt'l.C :1on. r'.ember for St. Jofl!l's Uest. 441.

December 8, 1978 Tape No. 182 AH - 1 DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, there is very little in this Throne Speech that has anything to do with the people of this Province, with the hopes and fears and concerns of the people of this Province. AN HON. MEMBER: Do not you slide back and go cuddling up to 'Morgan'. Do not do that or we will be in deep trouble. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, wonder if I might have silence from both sides of the House while I am speaking? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member is asking that silence be observed while he is speaking which is his right. The hon. member.

DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, the past week we have not heard a debate on the Throne Speech, we have heard an abuse of the privileges of this House by people who are interested more in their personal selves than they are in the people.

I wish to convey a message to the members of this House from the constituents that I represent, a message that was conveyed to me loud and clear as I knocked on their doors this Surrmer, and that message is this, "We want our business looked after and look after your business somewhere else." All these attacks on people and _the innuendo and the honour defences and the honour, get that out of the House.

Let members duel outside like they did 200 years ago if they are interested in that junk and let us get down to the business of the people of this country, let us get down to the honest,decent concerns of the people and they are very real concerns. There is nothing in this Throne Speech about jobs, nothing in it. That is what concerns the people of this Province and that is what concerns the people that I represent, jobs. Nothing in there about jobs. A few long-range, long-winded things about jobs, but nothing there.

There is, thanks to the hon. member for the Opposition, the Leader who brought in a private member's bill on unemployment, the opportunity to debate this in this session. I wi~l defer my remarks on unemployment until that time and we hope that we can come up with some thoughts about what should be done to curb the unemployment 442

December 8,1978 Tape 182 ah-2 DR. KITCHEN: problem in this Province. It has to be done. There is nothing in this Throne Speech or very little about another major concern of the district that I represent and that is the cost of living. The cost of living is a major problem with most people. How to cope with the increased cost of oil, h~ to cope with the cost of keeping themselves warm. There are many people this Winter in Newfoundland who will be cold and if the Minister for Mines and Energy had his way they would be even colder because there would be a three cent increase in the price of gasoline .

That is not the way we want this Province operated, ~-Te want the cost of living controlled. ¥1e saw the other day that the federal government decided that they would freeze ren~ , they would freeze the ren~ on low income and senior citizens housing. Now that is what we want. We want rents fro zen. ~;e want the cost of rental down, We want things kept down. We do not want them to go sky-high. And that was a good thing from the federal minister and a bad thing from a provincial minister.

The Minister of Labour says, "Yes, we are going to increase the minimum wage by ten per cent",from $2.50- he might, he is .not sure, he may not increase it at all yet, a possibility that they may increase the minimum wage by ten per cent, ten per cent, from $2.50 to $2.75. Big deall The minimum wage has to be increased substantially. I am not prepared to say what figure but it has to be increased substantially more than 10 per cent - HR. PECKFORD: Go away, Mr. Vague. DR.

KITCHEN: That is not vague.- ~ nbstantially more than the 10 per cent proposed by this government, and it has to be donP soon.because too few people can live in this Province, can live and ~ pay their bills and stay above water. The cost of living is heavy. we have a Department of Consumer Affairs, They do certain things fairiy ~~e)). ; they look after the landlord and tenants and things. I am not sure that is the d~partment that should be looking after it but they do not do very much else, the Consumer Affairs. I have asked the Minister of Consumer Affairs time after time to take some action on various 443

December 8,1978 Tape No, 18.2 ah-3 DR. l.aTCliEN: things • He has no power, no power in the most serious area, one of the most serious areas of this Province. I would like to see the Minist:er of Consumer Affairs, for instance,ban the use of certain types of bricks,in this Province, for houae construction. I wonder why it has not been done ·. When we try to ship our potatoes up to the ~1ainland they ban the potatoes.- We C8DI10t ship potatoes up _!:e have to get this soap from Prince Edward Island all the time to eat. We cannot ship our potatoes but they can ship this inferioz::brick down here.

If the Canadian Standards Association is nut prepa'red to butt in and stop it then the Minister of Consumer Affairs should gQ in and put in a little clause. Re do.es not have to bring in a great big lsw controlling all building products, just brick. There are good bricks made· in this Province, there are good bricks made in Nova Scotia but we do not want inferior bricks being 444

December 8, 1978 Tape No. 183 EC - 1 DR. KITCHEN: used, being used for ordinary people in this Province to have to put up with the nonsense when they fall apart. That should not happen. And it is a responsibility of the government and of the Department of Consumer Affairs to deal with matters of that type. We have to do it. I do not want to speak too much about Consumer Affairs; there is another area that I really want to get into in a minute. Another area is recreation. These are concerns of the citizens that I represent. Recreation is a major problem in this city.

It is much more of a major problem in a city than it is in rural areas where you have many ways of exercising and getting around. When we were growing up there was no need for any recreation programme, we made our own. And many people in rural areas make their own recreation programme, and properly so, but in the city where people live together in large quantities you have to have an artificially contrived recreation system. Now, what has happened in this Province is this: We have an Aquarena up in the West end: it is a great thing for those who can afford to use it - $1 to swim plus the use of a car.

But the opening of that Aquarena forced the closing of the Mundy Pond swimming pool. This is a great Boys' Club that is going and why should one interfere with the other? Now they hope the City Council will take it over, but the City Council have decided that they are going to cut services this year so that they will not have to put up the taxes. They are going to cut services, and the people who are going to be affected are people who have marginal incomes, low-income families who are going to be restricted by that. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that we have to have a good, strong recreation department, not the 445

December 8, 1978 Tape No. 183 EC - 2 DR. KITCHEN: tail end of another department. We do not even know where the Recreation Department is now. We could not find out what minister was looking after it. One time it was the tail end of Education, then it became part of Rehabilitation - God knows where it is now! It is going into Tourism. I believe it should be afforded greater status than that and made into a proper department with an appropriate Budget to do the things and to coordinate the activities 7 particularly in the city.

There is no need of the Province competing with the city and the city competing with the beer companies. We should take Recreation from the hands of the beer canpanies, who are doing a reasonably good job under the circumstances 7 of a Ministry of Recreation. and put it in the hands ' I want now to speak on, next to jobs, the most serious matter that is confronting the people of this city, in my view, and certainly the people that I represent, and that is the question of Housing. This is a very serious problem.

It is a very serious problem because of a number of reasons; one reason is there are not enough government subsidized units in this Province and in this city. The calls that I get daily - I have them piled up on my desk now that I cannot handle because the House is in session, I cannot handle them, piled up, calls about Housing. 'Can you get me into St. John's Housing apartments? I cannot afford to buy heat. I want to get into a place where the heat is subsidized. Can you do it for me?' You phone -'We will do what we can, but we only have so many units: This is a very serious concern.

And also, it is not only the people who are in the - it is the cost of heat. The cost of heat is driving the cost of accommodation up very, very high. And many, many people, coupled with the unemployment situation in this City, very serious in this city, the number of people 446

December S, 1978 Tape ~o. 183 tc - J OR. KITCHEN: unemployed in the district that I represent when I checked a year ago was about 1,000 - 1,000 young ~eople mostly. This year it has gone up. My best estimate now based on house to house visitation is something like 1,200 or 1,300 people, mostly young people. It has gone up 30 per cent hi?,her in one year. Now, I do not care what Stati stic s Canada says or what anyone else says, I am . talking about when you go from one house to the other, who is working; who is not working. And they say, 'There are two of 447

December 8, 1978 Tape 184 PK - 1 Dr. Kitchen: our young men not working, and there was a girl she got a job in the Village Mall the other day.' Thank goodness for the Village Mall something opening up so it will give people a job here and there. But the problem is unemployment among young people now and that makes the housing problem much more serious because the income is not there,·and it is much more difficult. If the unemployment problem was solved then the heating crisis ~1ould not be very serious because people who are working with good wages would be able to pay the price of heat.

Now7 let me,speak a bit more about housing. I believe that one of the most serious problems with housing and how to correct it is that there must be in this Province, in this government a strong Department of Housing. Housing,much more even than recreation, cannot be the tail of Municipal Affairs or anything else, it has to be a strong powerful department. It has been the tail of Municipal Affairs, that means that Municipal Affairs, which is a heavy dep~rtment; has had to ignore housing, virtually ignore housing and give .her off to Crown corporations. We have given it off to St.

John's Housing Corporation, Newfoundland Housing Corporation, St. John's Housing Authority, which is a half-assed, half federal, half provincial corporation with responsibilities to themselves rather than to anyone else. We have City Council involved in this through RRAP money they get from the federal government, virtually directly, but not quite directly. We have Heritage in there too fooling around in the housing field. We have all sorts of people in the housing field but we do not have a Department of Housing. We have a minister now, And I want to congratulate the government.

It is not very often I get a chance to congratulate this government, but I am going to do it now. think the creation, the appointment of a Minister of Housing is a good move, it is a first-class move and this government has got to be commended for that move. I commend them. Now that is not enough. Having a minister is no good, you have to have a department, there·has to be 448

December 8, 1978 Tape 184 PK - 2 Dr. Kitchen: responsibilities, there has to be a deputy minister, there has to be a good budget, a good solid budget. It all has to be there, and the powers have to be laid out. Because there has to be somebody in the Province who is in control of housing. You cannot have a half a dozen agencies operating there with gaps and overlaps and things like that, inconsistencies in policy. Let me give hon. members some of the inconsistencies in policies that I have observed over the past few years.

There are a great number of inconsistencies in policies between the various housing corporations. St. John's Housing Authority has something like 1,600 units in this city; St. John's Housing Corporation has about 650. Let me give you some-the Housing Corporation operates a number of houses in the city. Let me look at the rates,for example, of the two authorities to just give you an idea of what goes on. The St. John's Housing Authority~ their rate system,what a tenant pays,depends upon his income to some extent. In some units, and the rent is pretty straightforward, they pay up to 25 per cent of their income.

But in some areas now - if you live in some parts of the housing area you pay that and your heat is provided. You move in another part of the city, your rent is slightly reduced but you pay your own electric heat. And some people who are living in some housing units in this city paying their own electric heat cannot afford to live in them, they want to get into the other units where the heat is provided for a slight fee. And that is very important. There is inconsistency even within the same authority in the amount of money that a person has to put out for his house including heat, and that should not be.

That should not be that way) there should be the same policy regardless of where you live. People should not be always petitioning the authority to have to move back and forth_, that is wrong 1 it is not fair, it is not fair and the authority gets tired of people trying to get transfers. But I can appreciate the problem of the employees there who are doing a very good job under very difficult circumstances, but there is inconsistency. 449

December 8 • 1978 Tape 184 or. Kitchen: But let me look. at. the St. John's Housing Corporation where many people who are not necessarily poor live. the Housing Corporation not the Authority. They have their own 650 or· so apartments, they are the ones that run Elizabeth Towers PK - 3 and they run other parts. I was just looking for the sheet of rate .s ' there. I have them here somewhere, I would like to read them out. For example, you can get a three bedroom apartment with heat from the St .. John's Housing Corporation for $245, which is less than subsidized people are getting it for. Now that is not fair.

People who are gettin!J- subsidies need .to be subsidized. But many people living in St. John's Housing Corporations are getting ve.ry good salaries and do not need subsid:f.zed rent. It is not fair. It is not fair for two government housing agencies to be operating different policies. That is not fair. And 450

Tape No, 185 ~·!:-l - 1 D'L Y.:ITCRE~ : t~en of course there are ~~ople 1:!10 .'lre living b. Eliz:;beth To"•ars •·rho O?.re payi.1g, in !'lY vie~~, !'luch :!.ess tha.""l t:1ey should he ;>aying for tile type of acc:o=oclation t:1u.t i'l ':leir.g provided there, Tl1ere is a lot of inc:onsis te ~CJ: ~n thin authorities and be~·reen authorities _ c-perating in the :10us:ing =ield in this ?~ovinc:e. Now, let I:!e give you ~--'lothar example of inconsistencies, You say, "Hell the St. Jo~'s Hou:;in;; Authority is half. federal ;;>.nd half '?rov:...,.ci'l.1 1 there is not !'lUC:h ue can do about that." There is.

But there is another inconsist~:J.cy ar..cl. :::cat :_s •.d.thin the same He~vfoundland and Labr:o.dor Housing. Let me ~ive you 2..."1 exa~le. I 1-1as il'1. Goose Bay recently. :re :1!1-l a ~e.et:!..11g up t:1ere anC. the hon. member for Eagle hivsr ("'~r. Strac:1a.:n.) ~·ras the=e a:1d after the m.eeti:1~ -:te ~·rere all occ.u?ie..:i, people. •7ai'lti:lb tu tell you various tb.ing.s 1 and 3. cet"tai:t. it~rn \·7:;1S Jroug:1:: to ~~-..:" c:.ttar.tion t:lere.

They said, "Look, as Goose Eay closes O.o~-m p.:ople ~-.cho are livi.n~ in Ue·,.rfoundland and Labrador :1ousing units fine it ir::rossi1le to live in Goose Bay." Ti1ey say ti1is. The rer.ts 3.rc SliiS ~d up e;ach !IlOnt:~., but when you add. ligi.1t, ar_d ~1eat in t!1e ~·Tinter, J .. ou C.3.l1. go up to $~00. :·Tow then, vhe.re is t~a iucor..sister:.cy t:1ere? Hell tl1e inconsistency of that, ~;hen Labrador I..inertoc:rd sill was c:lose.cl h.

Stephenville, "lewfoundland and Labrador l:lousi;:,~ Corporation :.~stituted for a year or so a system of reduced rent :Oased on income, a system similar to tl1at used Ly tl1a St, Jo;1n' s :lousing ..:\.U t~1.0 ri ty • AN RON. :-IE:1BER: JR. KITS:{I:::-<: l.1.I1d ti~ey s:1ould COl"ltinue to <lo so. And they sl1.ould co!l.ti:rue to L.o it r:.r:C. e:l:tend it in Goose llay. k1y are['_ "'here the government O'::'US houses s:.ou:!.d have a consistent policy ttro~.:ghout~ I thir.k,p1!rticularly in dis:a.st:r situatio:1s.

It has to b.a fair a.r;.d tO.at is ";,J~1'~l w~ r"!.e.ecl e strong Depart"'-ent of Housing ~dth a minister and a staff c;ho are 451..

JeceMber 3, 197G Tape No. lSS 2 ::r2. KITCliEN: on top of tha situation ancl ~;ho do not have to be negotiating from one authority to the other ~d trvin~ to f~gure up the complete schemozzle that housing is at t~~ ooment, everybody ~mr!dng hard, everybody frustrated, and the people not ?roperly served. There are too many inconsistencies. Let me give ycu enoti<ar inconsistency. Iu the city of St. Jo:w's, if you live South of Lellarchant P.oac! YO!:l can get p._!)Jli' money to fix your house.If you live 11orth of Le:-!archant Road you cannot do i::. Nm• you try explaining t:1.:1t to somebocly O!l. St.

Clare Avenue 1-1ho has been r,raiting mont:1s and months for ::-liP money. You cannot explain it because it is not fair and silould :lever be allowed to happen and ~rould not be allowed to happen if ,.:e had a proper Hinister of Housing in this Province ~orho would conduct proper negotiations '·lith Ottawa • • \N !!0'~ • ;~mER: Did you __ say P.RP.P or NIP? . I am talking about F.RAP, ?.RJ,P no!l.ey, I should have said RRAP if I did not. ResiC.ential Rehabilitation Assistance Progr~"]l;le, '·:!'.. DOODY : ·-... Both applies. ;)R.

KITCHEN: Well,the same thing applies but I am talking about housing and the getting of money to fix up your ;touse t.tith low ii'.terest rates, witil. most of it repayable but sor.1e of it ~tot repayable. And it is not fair. It is not fair. And it should not be left to tile city to decide these priorities. It should r..ot be. There is no reason wc>y peo?le on St. Cl11re Avenue should :lo ~7it~c•.lt and people on ;~onkstown Road should ;tave it. That is foolisaness. It s hculd be the sane policy a.""l.d it should be be!<eC. on need a:> nell as on area 7 to some extent.

I can see t~e necessity for some a~eas to set ~TIP but I do not see '"'hy the TI.R.IU' !:Ioney should be ta::.t •·•ay. And I 'Jelieve a strong >finister of Rousin~, a .stror::; ·rinistry of :iousin~ ~1ere. a strong Deparment of Housinf:; 2 ~Jould straigi1ten it out quite a bit. 452

~;c~~ber 9, 1973 Tape ;{c. 185 ~:- 3 "'~ _ ...... /.nether question that boti1ers me very :11Uc!1 and bothers the people that I represent are these subsidies, the s~cr citizens accornmc~~tions. A senior citizen ~~o goes to live in an apartment hous~ thet various reople operate ar_d there are many se..-.,_ior citizens apartnent houses, you zo there, the building is subsidized in the construction and your rent is subsidized if you go to live in them. But nany senior citize~s ~refer to live in their o~m houses, ~~1ich they have developed and bull t •7i th t~.eir o~m hands over the years.

Now the children are gone and they still have their !1ouses anc! they l.il~e living there. That is horne. That is T,rhere they have their furniture around and people can come and ~o and it does r.ot cost very much to upkeer 1:-ecause they o~·m it. But the "oi!lt is they have lo:; income and ~·hen the roof goes, or the door goes, or sornet:1ir..~ .;lse aappens thut :us to be fi:~eJ th~y ca=t get it fixed_, they cannot afford it_ So t~1ere is a great tendency to ~ve t!1e - or tb.ey car.not ke~? it \.rar.:~. Thev ca.:Jaot keep it warm. Thav caw.."'lot afford. to :1aat it.

TI1ey ca.n.""l.ot afford to live there so tiley :1ave to move into - there is no subsidy for t"tem.

See this i:> the point; there is :10 subsidy to liva o.t :1ome -but there is a subsidy to go to a place t:1ey do not 'vaut to AO in, 1l,ere somebody is :::.U:~lng a good profit, ~erhaps some legal corporati~rr downtown W.1o owr.s t.i1i.1 or so:::e other developer o1ms a set of apartments, suLsiJ.izeu by the federal government to build ~d subsidized for people to go in and live and yet t:1ere is no cor.lr>ar<J.ble progra=e 1dthin the Province by 1t:1ich a serior citizen can ::;ct a few buc!~s co keep :.is ~louse war.!l and st~y 'J.ome1 less 1 perhaps 1 t~-.an it ,,•culd cost to go into a senior citizens !•o:ne.

Row I e.m n.ot suggestir-.~..g ~~1at there is no ~eed for s~nior citizens acmes. Do not g~t r.e 453

December 8, 1978 Tape No. 186 EC - 1 DR. KITCHEN: wrong, but I think there should be a consistent policy there so there should be an element of choice, that a person who wants to live at home and can get some cash, perhaps less than the cc~t of ;;oing to a senior citizens home, but he should not br. forced to by circumstance when it will cost the government less for him to stay where he is. It makes no sense. Now these are five or six inconsistencies that I have pointed out here in the whole question of housing. Let me talk about this question of Virginia Park.

I find it very, very strange - and I do not want to make an attack on anybody - that the former Minister of Rousing, who is t:1e raember for the district, was unable to come to grips with this problem and deal with it. AN HON. MEMBER: Garbage! DR. KITCHEN: I cannot see why it could not be done. The Minister of Housing should be in a position if anyone is, to get the thing going. Why should these people have to go and hire a lawyer and get the C.B.C. going and contact this side of the House?

There should be a Ministry of Housing, a Department of Housing - and I meant no personal slur at the minister - it is just that the Department of Housing should be there for people to come to and say, 'Look, boy, we have problems with our housing. Hnw about telling UR what to d~ and giving us a hand to do it?' Let us do it now rather than have to say, 'Well, it is a federal responsibility and I really have to get on with municipal affairs,' and honestly having to do that. Now this iR serious.

And let me add another point, that I feel too that one of the good things that we have had - "\l"'!') '~'..,'\.'"a ......... .. ,LL~\. •• 454

December 8, 1978 Tape No. 186 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER:(Dr.Collins) Order, please! Order, please! The han. member is having difficulties. Order, please! MR. NEARY: What about ~11 the skulduggery with the A.B . Walsh company? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Table the report about the investigations going on when the minister was head of that. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order! I do have to ask hon. members not to interfere with the hon. member when he is clearly having difficulties in making his remarks heard. DR. KITCHEN: Mr.

Speaker, there is another yoint that I would like to make concerning the Ministry of Housing and that concerns a very good practice which has crept up and was introduced, I believe, by my colleague from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) when he was the Minister for Social Services, and that is the establishment of an Appeals Board - I believe that was where it was introduced - whereby people on social assistance who felt that they were discriminated against by the department or were treated unfairly could go and put their case before people who worked in the department.

I have used that myself for constituents and I have found it to be a very worthwhile procedure where you have three people, one of whom is a social services recipient,and they go through the case and they make a ruling. Sometimes it is ruled in favour of the social services person and sometimes it is ruled in favour of the department, but there is a diversity of ruling and for many people it is basically a good procedure. And the same procedure is used in unemployment insurance. I do not believe it is a very effective procedure, in my view. I have had very bad results in appealing there.

I think it is not nearly as good as the social services one, and 455

December 8, 1978 Tape ~o. 186 EC - 3 DR. KITCHEN: -------- that is the federal one, but the social service ~ne is reasonably good, I think, I have found it to be so. I would like to see the sam·e thing instituted as far as Housing is concerned, with the St. John's Housing AuthOrity. There are people, you know, who feel that the St. John's Housing Authority i ·s discriminating against them, and they say, 'Look, we have tried," -and I do not know if they are or not but when I look at it so111etimes I am on the side of the person looking for that house. I believe that som·etillles they have waited too long.

And I am not charging personal anilllosi'ty on the part of the people administering this, but so111etimes civil servants see things one way - That: is right. !YR . KITCHEN: - and they do not always see it che way other people see it. And I believe thac there should be an appeals pr ocedure outside the ~ ous in~ Authority whereby people under certain extreme circumstances can appeal their case and get their rating changed s o that they can move in. Now, lr. Speaker, 456

December ~th, 1978 Tape No. 1!17 DV1-l :lR. KITCRIDT: these are a nucber of points that I have made with respect to the Department of Housing and hm·T it might ~e improved. But I do believe, Mr. Speaker, I rlo believe that we have, in this Rouse, to set up that depRrtment appropriately with the proper funding. No~~, I believe it needs a debate, appropriate debate on t~is before it is properly set up. I believe that the ~ouse Leader on the government side should bring in a bill to properly set up this department. He do not have to close Tuesday. H'ho cares if we close Tuesday?

Most people get two days off, they get the 25th of December and the 26th. That is all I need. I do not even need that. I a~ prepared to come back here Boxing Day if you want to, I am prepared to stay here all night, all night next week - !ffi.. ::rEA...'tY: Come back the first of January. DR. KITCHEH: - and 1ve will get this good housing bill passed. But I am not prepared, I thinl::., to let things just go through. I would like to have a good housing bill introduced, a good debate, let us keep the Rouse open, let us keep it open, let us put it on, let us debate it and have it out. SOME HON.

NID·!JlERS: Hear, hear! DR. l~ITCHEN: And then we will have a Depart~2nt of Housing that my constituents can relate to and can be properly served by, a housing policy in the Province that is properly put together, a housing policy that when it has to be negotiated 1~ith Ottawa is properly negotiated, a housing policy ~•hich has some value to tr.e people in the Province.

In that ~~ay I believe ~~e will partially solve one of the major problems. :rm-r, it is never going to be solved - t!:lat is only part of it, I am speaking on behalf of the consumer of housin;;. ::ow there are other problems as every~ody knows concerning the construction of housing and things of that nature. I do not knmv if that should be the property of the Department of Housing or not, I am not sure. I am taking it from the consumer end of it more than I am from the other end of it. Undoubtedly, there are other parts of housing t.~at have to be lool::.ed after other than the consumer end. 457

December 8th, 1978 Tape No. 137 DW-2 D~. KITCHEN: But the more serious question though has to do with the unemployment because unemployment makes the housing problem that much worse. If you have a fair job, good money coming in then you can provide your own housing reasonably well. But the problem is, Sir, there are a great many people in this Province, in this city who have no jobs, people who are on social assistance, people who are at jobs which do not pay high wages, people for whom the minimum wage is not enough to keep the house warm. Last Winter I was called upon by many constituents.

I visited them and found out that they could not keep their houses warm, they had to turn off their heat during the day, put it on for cooking and go around with mitts on and go around - not everybody but a substantial proportion of people were in that situation. I am sure that other hon. members here must have had the same situation. HR. SPEAKER: ~1R. T. HICKEY: Han. minister. Would the han. gentleman allow me to make a few comments with regard to the full-scale debate on housing.

Hould my hon.friend agree that a bill be put through while we sit now simply to set up the structure of the Department of Housing and if necessary let a full-scale debate take place in a month or two from now when a major piece of legislation comes through under the title of a housing act, a housing bill? ~fR. S. ~P.Y: HR. SPEAKER: (YCUNG) l!R. S. NEARY: A point of order. A point of order has been raised. That is a rather hypothetical question.

Sir, it is a very unfair question to put to my han. friend. tfy hon. friend is a member of a caucus and '1hat the hon. gentleman is asking tcy han. friend to do is divulge the discussions that take place in the Liberal caucus. The han. gentleman should be ashamed of himself - putting such a ridiculous question to my han. friend. ~!R. SPEAKER: (YOt~G) ~ffi. T. HICKEY: !W .. SPEAKER: (YOUNr.) Order, please! Order, please! To that point of order, •~r. Speaker. The hon. minister on t~e point of order. 458

necemher 8t h, 197 8 !ape lo. 18 7 nt - 3 MR. T. R.ICKJn'; My hon. friend is rather sensitive and touchy. Is there not independence of l!dnd over there? I am not asking my hon. friend any question. I already kno~., where he s,tands on this. I asked my bon. friend who has expressed a very keen interest in housing. Now if the two non. eentll!lDen do not agree well then you know whether you can afford that luxury or not, It is s0t11ething else. That is to.o bad. ~rn.. SPEAKER: Order, please! O.rder, please!

I feel that is not a point of order and if the hen. gentleman for St.John 1 s West Wants to an13wer the question he may. Hon. member for St. John 1 s !\Test. DR. KITCHE!{: In response to the question, I have to 459

~ece~ber J, 197G ""'" ..J .... KIT~: Tape :Ole. 1£3 say tnat t~at should be the subject -:>f ne3o tial:ion be t't·!een the two House leaders. It is :J.Ot really ~ iJOint tllat I uould Lave to co=ent upon but I ..-oulci like very r:lt;Ch to h;;o.ve this Departnent of Housing set up and set up properly and 1Yith all the powers and funds ti1at it properly d~serves .. I t:J.ink that everybody oa this side of t!.le llouse, if I nay presume to spea1;: '·rithout a caucus on this It.atter, \:roulc! ::;o &long with the same thing.

We want a Department of Housin.r; and ~.,e ~~ant a good Department of Housi:J.g and we want some discussion as to ,.That the proposals are. Now I want to - gee~I want to t:1rm-: one more bouquet ~~ the ROVe~ent and then that is the end of the bouquets. 3ut the ~E?~~t is a partial one.

During the lest session of t!le House, on a private m.;;mbe_!s1 resolution, I iatroduced a bill, a resolution I suess, callL•g for the ~overnme:J.t to - :vhich was not debated 7 _-""!:~ _ ciid not ::;et to that one- to i!:!plc::ment a programme of free,medic~~~y-pre ~c~ibed.drugs for old a?,e penstoner~ anc for tt;.ose 101ho are c!J.ronic&lly ill. ~low that :.ras a resolution that l·r~s introduced as !l_r_e~~!= . of- dis.cu~sions that ~rere held Hitl:·. u:any people~ · a resolution that came from a policy conference t:1at we held in our party sometime before that ..

At ti1e SBI'!e til!!e the Senior Citizens' Association ' '•ere pushir.g for that. Now 1 see in t!:J.e Throne Speec~1. that tl1e goverru:1ent is prepared to co nore t!1.an just lm·Ter the cost of cerugs, cy ~ki~g generic dru~s rossible,by 5 per cent by introc!ucing Cl 1)ill, they sey, t: .. at ~rill raduce t:~e cost of ~crlic.?-.lly prescri~~G. drugs ~y a major portion. I do not ~:-:.no":·r ·HhD.t t:12t is ~.ret 7 it is fairly v~gue, but I t:1ink it is a good ·poi:1.t.

Ve :,ave to su~sidi~e t:1is and I tl,inl~ the gove=ment deserves some credit for bringing 1~ a bill that •,'Ot:ld lm-:er ::.~e cost of drugs substantially. L:eceuse t~~ eavern..:tent is goiu.g to pic!: U:.J t~1e tab in a major rt\rt of the cost of ::1edically prescribed drugs for senior citizens_, that is a good 460

Tape N'o. 188 1!}! - 2 :>R. "CITCHE~l: I '~auld lE~e to ~o=e:c.t further .:hen I see t:"le co~text of the bill and perhaps Tfe can C!Jllend it from 3. r-.a.j or I' art to :he T7hole shot. That is ~1hat I ~muld 11:.e to ~ee., uher~ the ~overnn.cnt pays the total shot for the cost of drugs for old age pensioners and for other people 1iho are chro::;.ic3ll:• ill ·..:ith large drug bills J tl1ing. It is a very serious problem, a very, very serious rroblen from the point of view of reople affected.

I ~- :lad the goverr~ent changed their rositiou from one session of t::"le Rouse to the :lext,,~th:!.u a fev1 '!1Dnt~1s 1 on t!-.is pnint. ~lo-:·7 I ~··mild like for them to move a little bit furt:"ler, but '·7e •,•ill de 'bate t::at r·•hen t!::e trne comes. Now,in the Throne Sp~~ch ~ n~~er of ':'Dints, I vrill just pic!~ out a fei·T here no~1 that I wanted to co"1!1!·?.nt <Jn. On:o, is this Lacrador Develorment Cornorat:l.on.

I am a bi..t nervous about the Labraclor ~evelO!'l!len.t Corpora~ion- t~·hut i.s -;_tf-':~!e Lo'ton~r C:!urchil: Dev(.lop~ent Corporation) for a ::ui.:Lb~r o£ reaso:1s~ 8 .. 1al is t~at it departs su0starJ..ti.:tl::..y fra\.l tl1e conc;:!.pt ~~.~.~t -:~7as a<1o~,.~ed. in :his Ucuse of Assembly last session. ~~?.. c!\::ciU.~d :1ere, ti.1r:ugh u~azimcus rcsolutiou., after considi:!ra.ble de::at2, thu.t t:!~ conc::pt for develapment of Labrnclor Troul:i bG.. t:1e. use of i1.y,.lro el~ctricity as a power source to :-:;recess uate.rial.:; .. ....:.:.:~.~oi:...1 LabraJor.

New tile corporation that is esta'"ulis~1.ccl is Lower c:lu.rc:l.ill, or s:1.ould -·Lot, '1.:2. !i:.USt : . .'ln!: 'ueca.us; . .JC \rJ.V6 deci::.:?:d u~ '.JoulJ not, -:;;e -c~.ust ::o t dcvelor the Lo'l;·/i::t C~lurc.:·J.ill -vy i~3~lf,, ~.,2. . TtlUSt .:..evelop tl~e Lower C~1urchill i:.-:. co:tjlli""'lctio:r.. 'tv·ith ire~, j_~..._ conjur..ction "C.rit:: ct::er :_Jroccasir .. g i:tdustries. Pnd t.1.i.: 461.

~ac~~er 8 , 1973 Tape ::o. u:s :r.t - 3 ;>or~ - -1£d I ·•~s::. I could fi:lci it ~ere :"..W. :le t;ill fi::.d it - 'i~s > i .t says, ''n1e gove=en:: :,as tak= seeps recently r::owar:l.s :::1e crca::io:::~ oi s year-r ound dee p\ol~. tar port i .:l !.abraC.or . T.1a ::lel:l.alld for sucll a po-rt is cot:i::.g from ;>otcntial :1eavy :.=dust=r '!lasec! on enert;y from the Lcwer C'-urc:rlll poss i;,l}' ::;c. .ia'\·elq1)me:::~t of of!s:1ore oil and :;as and tl1e Jevelopr:en ! .,;; -.;rast iro<1 res erve s in h'este= Labrador . " ~low, I I~Ould u:re to us!<: t.'f)e ::~i~.:.ster responsible, ~o-he!l ~e :;ets a cl.:ance to spe~ agai::~., 462

December 8, 1978 Tape 189 PK - 1 Dr. Kitchen: what steps have been taken here towards the creation of a year-round deepwater port? What steps have been taken here? It is one thing to speak about it in the Throne Speech and it is another thing to see some action in this regard. I believe that as far as that port is concerned it is urgent. It is not something that­ nothing can happen unless we get that port in Labrador, nothing can happen industrial wise. We are going to have to ship everything South to Quebec unless we can ship it East through us.

We have got to get a port if we are going to use iron ore, if we are going to process iron ore, if you are going to have any control that port comes first. And I would like to see studies undertaken now, funded now on that port where we can decide whether it is going on the North side of the bay, of which Goose Bay is the inside par~or whether it should be in the Straits or where it should be. That has to be decided. The whole transportation policy hinges on that in this Province.

Wherever it goes and we cannot decide here, it is not for us to decide here,perhaps- ma.vbe it is for us to decide here-but we should certainly have whatever studies are necessary ·-. put into place now, now so that we can decide on this port. If no port is possible-suppose no port is possible, then this whole concept of Labrador development that we have agreed on here in this House is an incorrect one and we should stop it, stop beating our heads against the wind,if that is the case.

If a port is possible studies should be carried out, serious studies,whatever the cost might be it does not matter, it has to carried out and we have to decide where it goes · because the transportation policy hinges on that then, the rest of the transportation policy. If it is out towards the coast then we have to think in terms of railroads. If Goose Bay is the possibility, then that may be even better. I mean, if we can get that in the Goose Bay area that means that transportation to the water is cut down, we_ may not need a long railway, the whole price becomes feasible. AN HON.

MEMBER: The railroad may be the answer. 463

December 8, 1978 Tape 189 PK - 2 Dr. Kitchen: The railroad may be the answer. We mentioned that at the meeting the other night in the West End of the city, that the future of the railway in this Province is great. There is a very good future in this railway, not only on the island but possibly in Labrador, but it all hinges on, in my view, a large part of that hinges on where this port goes. And studies should be instituted not just one series of things to see if we can keep Lake Melville clear, but whether or not where a major deepwater port is, what are the specifications?

It bothers me to see that the oil rigs are being supplied largely from the Island part of the Province. That is not the way to develop Labrador by operating out of Botwood, with all due respects to Botwood, nor from St. John's. We are not going to develop Labrador by operating out of the port of St. John's,that is not the way to do it. We are going to develop Labrador, largely, by operating out of Labrador ports. And we have got to get a port there and we have got to make use of whatever facilities there are there.

It is wrong for us to take steps now to develop the oil indus try on the Island when the oil is North because any steps, any capital expenditure that goes on here precludes the same thing from going on North. Once this part of the Province gets established it becomes much more expensive to develop the North; and we have to be careful of that. I believe that steps have already been taken that will be hurtful for the development of the North through pressures from various business groups,perhaps,who are interested in their business rather than interested,totally 1 in the long-range development of the Province.

And the whole thing,in my view,hinges on that port, and where it should be, and/or if it is feasible even, and full speed ahead on that point. We have to have full speed ahead on that point, or else there can be no Labrador development. But there can be limited development within this Province· unless we are going to use that Quebec route completely. If we are to avoid the Quebec route then we are going to have to get a port if that is possible. 464

December 8, 1978 Tape 189 PK - 3 Dr. Kitchen: And I believe we have to institute very seriously that. And I think that is the top priority. It is the top priority. It is more of· a priority than the develoJX!K!nt af Lower Churchill power. There is lots of powe.r in labrador, and there is lots of developed power. The problem in Labrador is this, that we do not have the power. If we take that power then we put off the d~velopment of the lower Churchill project. I am not arguing against the Lower Churchill project.

What 1 am arguing for, iS that there should be more attention paid to putting that port there. and that is possiblY mor.e impertan_t. But _in tenns of time that is the crucial decision that has to be made, whether. or not that is feasible and possible and where it goes, where it goes. There are three or four possib1e locations that have been mentioned; One in Goose Bay one is the Straits, and one is further out the Bay. Maybe there are other locations but that should· be sort of thought of. ) . - 465

December 8,1978 Tape No. 190 ah-1 DR.KITCREN: .\nd how can "tore develop any transportation policy in this Province unless we have that focal point decided on right away? And it has to be decided on because that is the future. There is no future in this Province apart from what the Minister of Fisheries is trying to produce and the rest of us are trying to produce in the fishery. Apa