ISSN 0542-5492 Fourth Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 29 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXVlll No. 708 - 8:00 p.m., MONDAY, 2 JUNE, 1980 Printed by W. T.Melwichyna. o-. Printer, Province of Afaniloba

MAN ITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty - First Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, A. R. (Pete) ANDERSON, Bob BANMAN, Hon. Robert (Bob) BARROW, Tom BLAKE, David BOSTROM, Harvey BOYCE, J. R. (Bud) BROWN, Arnold CHERNIACK, Q.C., Saul CORRIN, Brian COSENS, Hon. Keith A. COWAN, Jay CRAIK, Hon. Donald W. DESJARDINS, Laurent L. DOERN, Russell DOMINO, Len DOWNEY, Hon. Jim DRIEDGER, Albert EINARSON, Henry J. ENNS, Hon. Harry J. EVANS, Leonard S. FERGUSON, James R. FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GALBRAITH, Jim GOURLAY, Hon. Doug GRAHAM, Hon. Harry E.

GREEN, Q.C., Sidney HANUSCHAK, Ben HYDE, Lloyd G. JENKINS, William JOHNSTON, Hon. J. Frank JORGENSON, Hon. Warner H. KOVNATS, Abe LYON, Hon. Sterling R. MacMASTER, Hon. Ken MALINOWSKI, Donald McBRYDE, Ronald McGILL, Hon. Edward McGREGOR, Morris McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., Hon. Gerald W. J. MILLER, Saul A. MINAKER, Hon. George ORCHARD, Hon. Donald PARASIUK, Wilson PAWLEY, Q.C., Howard PRICE, Hon. Norma RANSOM, Hon. Brian SCHROEDER, Vic SHERMAN, Hon. L. R. (Bud) STEEN, Warren URUSKI, Billie USKIW, Samuel WALDING, D. James WESTBURY, June WILSON, Robert G. Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield La Verendrye Flin Flon Minnedosa Rupertsland Winnipeg Centre Rhineland St. Johns Wellington Gimli Churchill Riel St. Boniface Elmwood St. Matthews Arthur Emerson Rock Lake Lakeside Brandon East Gladstone River Heights Kildonan Dauphin Swan River Birtle-Russell lnkster Burrows Portage la Prairie Logan Sturgeon Creek Morris Radisson Charleswood Thompson Point Douglas The Pas Brandon West Virden Roblin Osborne Seven Oaks St. James Pembina Transcona Selkirk Assiniboia Souris-Killarney Rossmere Fort Garry Crescentwood St. George Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 2 June, 1980 Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): Call the committee to order. We're on Northern Affairs, Resolution 11 3, 1. (b) - the Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. Well, before the break for Private Members' Hour, we were discussing in general terms some of the difficulties that are facing this government in regard to northern Manitoba.

I'd like to continue on that vein very briefly, if I can, because I know the Minister and other members of this committee are anxious to get into the li ne by line in the detail of these estimates. But I think it's important to paint the overview before we proceed in that fashion. Mr. Chairperson, it's a situation that confronts the Minister that is one of not of his own making. I think we have to make that very clear right from the beginning that there is a historical reason that the conditions that his government faces, that the people of northern Manitoba face, are there.

It's historical and it's not a situation that can be assessed to any particular government. But the fact is that finding that situation as it exists, there is, at least in my opinion and in the opinion of my party and my government when it was in government, that severe and strong action must be taken immediately to order to deal with some longstanding problems. It's not a matter of going in and saying, well, we can accomplish this in time; we can proceed on the same basis on which we proceed in other jurisdictions or in other areas of the province, that we can go step by step.

There is a necessity for some very major changes to be made immediately. The reason for. that basically is not so much that the conditions themselves are so onerous but that the result of those conditions are very devastating in human terms and in economic terms. The north is quite literally a third-world country when compared to southern Manitoba.

It is an area where the life expectancy is far less than it is in southern Manitoba; where a child who is born has less of a chance of making it to age one than does his or her count erpart in southern Manitoba or in rural Manitoba; where a person has less opportunity of completing their education; where a person born to the north has less opportunity of findin g gainful employment, of developing skills that will enable them to continue with that gainful employment.

It is a situation whereby all standards that we use to dete rmine the quality of life, we shall find the northern people are on the lesser end of the scale in regard to the situations that confront them. The situations that confront them are very basic, indeed. The Minister mentioned one of them, water supply. Well, if you don't have adequate water supply, and by that I mean safe water supply, you are going to find yourself with the sorts of conditions that we presently find in the north.

You are going to find that you have an incr eased infant mortality, because small children are unable many times to cope as well as adults are with the problems that are manifested as a result of poor water conditions. You will find unhealthy children because of that. You will find unhealthy mothers because of that and that has to have an impact on the child.

So that is an area of grave concern and it's an area in which the Minister has been doing some work, has been directing some other effort but when we come to a situation like Cross Lake, that init iative and that commitment on the part of the government seems to fall apart. There does not, in my opinion, seem to have been the type of immediate action that was necessitated by the very severe complaints that have been coming out of the community of Cross Lake in regard to their water supply. We know the quality of that water supply, at least, is deteriorating.

We know also that the water levels are lessening or are lower this year than they were in previous years. That's a very serious problem that confronts the Mini ster, again not one of his making, but one that he must act on and act on relatively quickly and act on in a decisive manner.

We also know that if a child is fortunate to make it through those early formative years - and in the north, especially in the remote communit ies, it is a matter of being fortunate enough - but if that does happen, that they are going to face conditions from then on which are peculiar to northern Manitoba and which will again put them at a disadvantage to persons in other jurisdictions, in other areas of the province. Number one, there is a lower level of income; average income per family is much lower in northern Manitoba, yet the costs are much higher for food, for shelter, for gasoline.

For almost any consumer item that you would wish to direct your attention to, the pr ices much higher, pri marily due to th e transportation costs, the extra costs of gett ing foodstuf fs and other consumer goods to northern Manitoba, but also due to the fact that in certain communities there is not a wide range of stores from which to shop and from which to choose. There is a certain amount of that situation being taken advantage of by persons, and that's something the government has to direct its attention to. So that, too, is extremely important. That is anothe r dis advantage.

You know, a youngster needs not only love, which they get, but they also need a stable diet, a good diet, a nutritious diet, a healthy diet, and far too often because of economic situations that exist again in the more communities primarily, but they're not exclusive to tho se commun ities, we find that di et is not accessible to the youngster. So in the formative years they are going to suffer nutritionally and that is going to have an impact on the rest of their lives.

We are then going to find that when th ey do hit schooling, that the level of schooling is not to the same degree that it is in the southern parts of the province. I'm not certain if there would be, especially in industrial communit ies, that much of a difference in 4237

Monday, 2 June, 1980 the rural schools because I think the systems are much the same and that's something that we have to look to also. But in the more remote communities, I can tell you, especially the reserv ations, that there is an extreme difference and that is something that the government has to look to. Which brings us to another problem and that, of cour se, is the jurisdictional disputes th at are constantly taking place in northern Manitoba and working, in almost all instances, to the detriment of the citizens of northern Manitoba. They are constantly being played off one government against the other.

We find that this government has, a number of years ago, said that, to give but one example, the Critical Home Repair Program would not be available to persons of treaty status living on reserve communities because there were supposed to be federal programs that would supplement or take the place of that program. Yet, in fact, those people in those communities did want tha t program.

Tha t program did service their community, did serve a need and they were unable to get it even though they made representation to the go vernment; even though I made representation to the government on their behalf and my colleagues did; and even though they went before the Human Rights Commission, they were unable to force the government to reimpose that program that was in place before. That is one small example of the changes that we have seen in northern Manitoba that have resulted in a decreased standard of living in regard to housing, in regard to food, in regard to the quality of life.

So a student gets into the educational system, if that system is not providing that student with the same benefits that other educational systems are then we will find that student will slip farther and farther behind. It seems as if the whole deck is stacked against that person right from the very start; it's as if someone had stamped victim across their forehead just because they were born in the remote part of norther Manitoba or even, in many instances, in close proximity or in an industrial com munity.

When they do complete their schooling, if they do complete their schooling - because the fact is that there is a much higher drop-out rate in northern Manitoba than there is in southern Manitoba - you will find that they then have to face another frustration and that frustration is findin g gainful employment, especially for persons again living in the more isolated communities - the Melis communities and the Reserve communities. There is just not the type of work available to them; there is not the opportunity available to them.

So that they are never able to use a job, to use the same sort of work practices that we have been able to use building a job upon job upon job to develop the type of skills that will see them through the rest of their lives. There's many problems here and I was a bit taken aback when just the other day we were in one of the committees and someone - not a politician but someone from the bureaucracy - mentioned that one of the problems was that those people - and we were talking in that instance about persons in northern Manitoba - those people don't want to work. That is not the case at all.

There is a cultural influence at work which causes some great difficulty for people in transferring from one culture to another and th at is wher e th e government can play a very prominent role in support services such as the Tawow Program, such as the programs to provide support mechanisms to persons coming from remote com munitie s and wishing to work in the mining industry, as well as by their own enlightened hiring practices, encourage and develop that transferance process from culture to cultur e.

But the fact is that those programs are too far and few between; the fact is that those programs have not been expanded significantly and in fact have probably decreased somewhat under the Mi nis ter's government; and tha t we are moving backwards rather than forwards at a time when moving forwards is so absolutely necessary. So I'm certain we will discuss that in some detail as we go through these estimates.

Then of cours e we find widespr ead social problems due as a result of the frustration; due as a result of the lack of opportunity; due as a result of that sort of pressure that builds from seeing your future as bleak and black. There's many ways you can de al with th e situation tha t confronts the Min ister.

You can try to, thr ough enlightened programs and through progressive programs, try to overcome many of those difficulties; or you can do as I believe the Min ister has done and the Minister before him has done and that's cut back on the programs and try to shift the programs and try to sink back into the colonial mentality that has been prevalent for so many hundreds of years and is the primary reason why we face the problems that we do tod ay. I think th at is tragic; I think that this gove rnment's reaction to the problems in northern Manitoba have been tragic.

I recall the Minister's contribution to the Budget Debate when he read through a list of horror stories about housing that was built, horror stories about arenas and complexes that were built. In fact, he was absolutely correct in certain respects in the fact that there were many problems that came about as a result of our policies in regard to trying to encourage northern people to take some control over their own destiny.

But they were problems that would have worked themselves out in time; they were problems that would have, over a period of time, become less and less and less as we were able to develop, in people who had presently not had opportunity to develop skills, those types of skills that were necessary to taking some control over their destiny, to escaping from that colonial attitude that not only is foisted upon them from outside, but after a certain period of time, becomes ingrown and becomes a part of their own thinking process.

So the problems in fact were short term, but let's look at what's happened and, again, I'll give you one instance and we can draw parallels from it, since the Minis ter has had this portfolio as well as the Min ister before him, because I realize the Minister has only had this portfolio for a short ti me. I went into South Ind ian Lake last summer for a while and the y were build ing a laundromat in the community. I'd like to give you some background on what happened with tha t laundromat, as presented to me by the councillors and by some of the residents of that community.

The laundromat had been ho used in the sch ool , or adjacent to the school as part of the school building but on the front of it. At that time the school decided that they needed a library so they decided to buy the 4238

Monday, 2 June, 1980 laundromat from the community and put in its place a library. They did do that and they gave the community the money. Northern Affairs said that money did not belong to the community because of certain technicalities; the way the agreement was written up it belonged to Northern Affairs. The community in fact wanted to build a laundromat next to their shoreline.

Northern Affairs came in and said that they couldn't build a laundromat there and so they spent several months doing soil samples and testing of the ground structures in the area to find out where they were going to build the laundromat. All this time there is no laundromat in the community because the original laundromat has been taken down and replaced by a library by the school.

The people of the community also wanted to build that laundromat themselves; they wanted to take the money th at th ey had received from the old laundromat and use it to build a laundromat, provide local employment and provide also a traing ground for local persons to develop skills in not only construction but also in management, and also in being able to learn how to develop their own work crews, supervise their own work crews. Northern Affairs told them that they couldn't do that.

Northern Affairs came in and started to build a laundromat for them and in fact after some fairly humo rous shenanigans, if you were sitting and looking from the outside, but some fairly serious situations if you were indeed one who did not have a laundromat for that period of time, ended up building in exactly the same spot that the community had wanted to in the first place. They built the laund romat and then they took it down because it wasn't built properly. And when I was in there in the early fall, or actually'in the middle fall, they were still building that laundromat.

That is the type of situation that we find now in northern Manitoba, where the control over one's destiny has been wrested from the northerners and placed in a bureaucracy, whether it works out of Thompson and whether it works out of Winnipeg is insignification in comparison to what it does to the people of those communities, they feel as if they no longer have any control over their destiny. And that's why you've had, under this government, whole community councils threatening to step down and, in fact, a number of resignations. That's why you've had the sort of articles in the paper that you've had.

This govern ment is buildin g up the levels of frustration in northern Manitoba to the extent where they are going to result in some very servious difficulties for the government. So if, by these estimates, we can convince the Minister to take a second look at his policies and to take a look at what we were trying to do with all its imperfections and go back to trying to develop local skills in trying to develop local control over the activities of the communit y and th e economic development in the community, I think in the long run we'll be far better off.

We, of course, will suffer through the horror stories of the badly built arenas; we will suffer thr ough the horror stories of the sometimes, misuse is too strong a word, but not most appropriate use of funding. Those are bound to happen, they happen anywhere in the province, they will happen moreso the farther you get away from the centres of control. So the solution to that is to build in small centres of control in the different communities so that cannot happen. That's something the Minister is going to have to look at.

That's something the Minister is going to have to give a fair degree of attention to if he hopes ever - and I'm not certain that he does - but if he hopes ever to develop a north that reflects truly and accurately the interests of northerners. Because in order to do that, the reason I say I'm not certain that he hopes he does, in order to do that we're talking about a very significant change in our societal structure in northern Manitoba. We're talking about new concepts, new ideas, some of which I am certain are strange as well as frightening to those persons who don't share the desire for change such as that.

So we have a situation now that is not getting better; it is getting worse. It is a historical situation. We can't blame the government or the Minister or any one government or Minister for the fact that it exists, but I certainly do blame this government for what they have done and how they have exasperated the problems in their short term.

I can tell him that, in my conversations with northerners, they indeed are upset; that they have very negative feelings towards this government; that they can't wait to be able to exercise their respo nsibility to vote so that they can show exactly how they feel about the government; and that they are eagerly awaiting a new government because they have no faith in this government's abilities to properly manage the north.

They are awaiting the election of a new government when they can get back to again progr essive change and positiv e ch ange and change th at, while sometimes difficult, will result in the long run in a much better northern Manitoba shaped in the interests and shaped for the interests of northerners. We will discuss that in some detail as we go through the estimates but I wanted to put those general statements on the record before proceeding, Mr. Chairperson. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. DOUG GOURLAY (Swan River): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This afternoon it was indicated that the members opposite would like me to table the Third Year Review and I was somewhat confused by this request because I was of the opinion that it had been tabled last year. However, further discussion indicated that maybe it hadn't but this information, if my consensus is correct, it was tabled a year ago but I have some extra copies here for the members. The Third Year Review was part of the agreement to deal with surface transportation which originally was only funded for the first three years where the rest of the sectors were for a five-year period.

This was the reason for this Third Year Review. We'll be dis cussing it further when we come to the appropriate part of the estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1X b)-pass; (1 Xc)-pa ss; (2Xa)­ pass; (2Xb)- pass; (2Xc)- pass; (2)- pass. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding 339,500 for Northern Affairs­ pass. (3XaX 1)- pass; (3XaX2)- pass - the Member for Churchill. 4239

Monday, 2 June, 1980 MR. COWAN: Mr. Chair person, on (3)(a)(1) ... MR. CH AIRMAN: (3)(a)(1)(a)- pass. I'm sorry, yes , that's right. MR. COWAN: Could we have a breakdown on that from the Minister? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Minister. MR. GOURLAY: This

section provides training to the councils and council clerks, community election officials, monitors community accounts and records, progress reports, actively involves community in planning and any physical and political developments, and also monitors the election process in the various communities. MR. COWAN: Would this be the appropriate area then to discuss the Minister's statement, during his opening remarks, that there would be in 1980 five more communities under local control as compared to 21 before, that it would now be 26? MR. GOURLAY: Right. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rupertsland. MR.

HARVEY BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Minister could elaborate a bit further on that statement he made in his opening remarks, that is, the commun ity's advancement towards self­ administration. What exactly is he definind as self­ administration? Could he provide us with a list of those communities that are now self-adminis tered and those that are predicted to be self-adm inistered over this fiscal year under consideration? MR. GOURLAY: Basically, when they become self­ administrating, they are in a position to issue their own cheques and set their own budg ets and collections and so forth. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, in The Northern Affairs Act, there is a provision for communities to move towards incorporated status and I would like the Minister to elaborate on that, if during this period of self- administration are any of these communities ind icating a desire to move towards a fully incorpo rated status and what measures are the department taking to try to move the communities towards this status? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Minister. MR. GOURLAY: Thanks, Mr. Chairman. To date we've had no requests from any of the communities to become incorporated.

However, we are looking at this whole situation with respect to incorportion and hopefully there will be some desire on the part of communities to become incorporated. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: The Minister in his opening remarks indicated, as I said before, that there were 21 self­ administering communities and they would hope to add to that number five communities this year. I'd ask the Minister if he can indicate how many self- administering communities there were in 1977, 1978 and 1979. MR. GOURLAY: In 19 77 there were 23; in 1978 down to 21; in 1979 there were 21 and 1980, 26. MR.

COWAN: Does that mean that there are 26 now or that they would hope to have 26 by the end of the year? MR. GOURLAY: By the end of the current year. MR. COWAN: Can the Minister indicate, perhaps, why there was a drop of two from '77 and '78? What were the circumstances behind that reduction in the number of self-administered communities? MR. GOURLAY: I should indicate that at the present time there are actually 23, with the indication this will increase to 26 by the end of 1980.

Now with respect to why the number dropped from 23 in 19 77 to 21 the following year, there were financial problems in a couple of the communities. MR. COWAN: Can the Minister provide us with more detail than that as to exactly what kind of problems they were and what procedur es were followed in regard to dropping those communities from a self-administering status to an otherwise status? MR. GOURLAY: As was mentioned earlier, there were some problems with finances and this was made a joint respo nsibility until such time as the financial situation improved.

This has since corrected itself in those two communities and they are again self-administering. MR. COWAN: So if I understand the Minister correctly, Mr. Chairperson, all we have now is the same number that we had in 19 77, a no-growth situation, and the Minister would hope to, by the end of the year, add three communities to the number of self-administering communities; is that correct? MR. GOURLAY: That's right. MR. COWAN: Then I'd ask the Minister why there was a no-growth situation for the last two-and-a-half years?

Why it was that there was no addition to the number of self-admini stering communities by his government? And the question that immediately falls upon that is, why is there going to be this year if there hasn't been for the past two-and-a-half years? Can he explain what circumstances are different now that were not in place a couple of years ago? MR. GOURLAY: The communities that get into the self-administration, of course, have to show some expertise in money management and so forth, and this situation remained fairly static for the last three or four years. MR.

COWAN: I'd ask the Minister why it remained fairly static. Was there a reduction in activity of his department in this regard or did they hit some problem areas that they felt were more difficult to overcome than problem areas that had been hit in previous years? Or was there a lack of commitmen1 4240

Monday, 2 June, 1980 from his government in regard to proceeding along this path of self-ad ministration? MR. GOURLAY: In order to become self- administrating communities, the request has to come from the communities themselves, and requests were not forthcoming until this year. There has been an indication that there'll be 23 now and there'll be another three before the end of the year. MR. COWAN: So in three years now, since 1977, the Minister is indicating that there have been only three requests for status as a self-administering community from all the communities that fall under his jurisdiction. MR.

GOURLAY: There will be an increase of five this year, from 21 to 26. We're currently at 23. MR. COWAN: Yes, but from 1977 there were in fact 23. Two of those five were communities that were self-ad ministering and three of them appear to be additional communities that have not been self­ administering in the past. I'd ask the Minister is those three were the only three new requests that his department has received since 1977, or have there been requests that have been turned down? MR. GOURLAY: No, those are the only ones. In a great many communities there appears to be no interest, at this point. MR.

COWAN: Thank you , Mr. Chairperson. To what does a Minister attribute this lack of interest in becoming a self-ad ministered community? It would seem to me that there are certain advantages to that status of being a self- administered community.

It would seem to me that the communities would wish to work towards it unless, of course, they didn't believe that the support services were in place in order to enable them to become self-a dministering on a practical basis, or unless they didn't know that that option was in fact an option that was open to them, that there had been no sort of encouragement on the part of his department to, No. 1, explain to them the process by which they became self­ administering and, No. 2, provide to them the sorts of support that they would need in order to make the request.

Because that request, in itself, is a fairly significant step for a community to take and it's not going to take it on its own. So I'd ask the Minister what sort of support services and what sort of educational services they've had in place. MR. GOU RLAY: There are a number of communities that wished and were in a position to become self-administering and looking back, 1976- 77, it remained constant.

I would say, in the short time that I've been in the portfolio there has been shown to me a desire on the part of staff to enco urage the communi ties to become self­ administering and I think there appears that another three will be reaching this status before the end of the year. It looks like, at this point, there could be another three or four next year and it seems to go in that type of cycle, where there's a number of years, or three years, where there was basically no change and now we're running into a situation where there's a number of communiti es will beco me self­ administering. MR.

COWAN: Well seeing as how the Minister has decided to go back past beyond 1977 and refer to 1976 here, I would ask the Minister to drop back a couple of years from that and bring us up-to-da te from perhaps 19 70 so that we can see the full growth pattern, in order to determine if, in fact, there is a cyclical process at work here. MR. GOURLAY: I don't have the figures before me before 1976 but there is some indication that they were considerably less prior to 1976, however, we can try and get this information for you. MR. COWAN: I'd appreciate that, just to satisfy my own curiosity, if nothing more.

I notice the members on the opposite side of the table are wondering why I wanted to go back quite so far. Well, No. 1 is to see the type of development that has been ongoing in that; and No. 2, is to see if, in fact as the Minister suggests, there is a cyclical process because I can see how there could be, in the respect that one community becomes self-administering and if it happens to be in an area, in close proximity by other communities, it would be an encouragement on the part of th e other com munities to become self­ administering.

That could happen but I would have to see it in actual numerical terms before I would accept it as having happened and then one, of course, would have to try to analyse why, in fact, it does work that way. Because I believe it is a significant step in the development of a community for them to take on the respo nsibility of becoming self-administrating and I believe that the government should be encouraging it and should be providing the type of support mechanisms that are necessary for the communities to make that, what might appear at the time, difficult move.

I would hope that by the information that I have requested we will be able to judge in fact this government's record against the previous government's record and I think that's a logical area to look into, in order to determine what has changed since this government has come into power. So having asked those questions, I would ask the Minis ter presently how many staff he has working in this particular area and what services they are performing and what jobs they are performing? MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At the present time, we have 26 SMYs, an increase of two this past year. MR.

COWAN: Could I ask the Minister then what those two increased persons will be doing, what their job function is? MR. GOURLAY: These are two additio nal co- ordi nators in the communities. MR. COWAN: Well, just to make certain that I've understood the Minister correctly, last year there were 24 SMYs in this particular area, this year there are 26 and the two new ones are working directly with the communities as co-ordinators or are they working with other staff as co-ordinators? 4241

Monday, 2 June, 1980 MR. GOURLAY: Yes, that's true. They will be working with the communities as co-ordinators. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.( a)(1)( a)-pa ss; (1) (b)- pass; (1 )(c)-pass - the Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: On 3.(a)(1 )(

b) there is a significant decrease in the dollar value of the Other Expenditures. Can the Minister account for that decrease? MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, most of this was over-budgeted in the year 1979-80. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1)(b )- pass - the Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Yes, the Minister indicates that it was over-budg eted for the previous year, can the Minister indicate how much money was actually spent then in the previous year? MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, there was actually 12 7,000 spent. MR.

COWAN: Perhaps the Minister then can indicate what areas weren't spent in regard to the appropriation of last year which was 21 9,600.00. In general terms, I don't ask for specifics but just what areas were over-budgeted for? MR. GOURLAY: Than ks, Mr. Chairman. The reduction was primarily in the travel reduction. MR. COWAN: Does that mean that the staff in fact were doing less travelling than they were in the previous year or that they were doing less travelling than was anticipated for them in the budget? MR.

GOURLAY: No, the y weren't doing less travelling but they were using more· of the scheduled airflights rather than charter service. MR. COWAN: So the Minister is saying then in fact there was no decreased travel into the communities but that in fact they were relying on different modes of transportation. MR. GOURLAY: That's right. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1)( b)-p ass; (1 )(c)- pass; (1)( d)­ pass - the Member for Churchill. MR.

COWAN: On the - I should keep my hand in the air maybe and then I could avoid some going back and forth - there is a significant increase here in the Fire Program, I'd ask the Minister if he could detail that for us briefly. MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There was a considerably incr eased tr aining program initiated for this year and training outside of the communities, Brandon College, Fire College, is one instance and of course there is other regional training in Thompson and Gimli. MR. COWAN: I'm going to depart from my usual here and commend the government on this action.

I believe I did so also during the Minister of Labour's Estimates when, I don't know whether it was a similar program or a supple mentary program or perhaps even the same program that we were talking about but I do believe that the government has recognized a very serious concern, a very serious problem and has acted in a responsible manner in regard to providing fire training to individuals in northern Manitoba who, in fact, have needed that training and will put that training to good use I'm certain. I know that in the past we have lost far too many persons because of tragic fires.

I think the last one was in my own constituency in llford where we had a multiple loss and I shared some of the grief of my constituents in that regard, as I know everyone did in this House. That sort of tragedy need not have existed and it was, in large part, due to the fact that the people in that community who wanted to act, who desperately tried to act to put out the fire, did not have the proper training, had never had access to the proper training.

It's no comment on them, other than to say that the will was there, it was just the training that was not given to them and that was in fact why we had a tragedy that perhaps, and perhaps because one has to second-guess in this regard, and perhaps that tragedy need not have happened.

And so we commend all the efforts on the part of the government to increase the training of fire personnel; to increase the purchase of protective devices for homes, because that too is a very important part of the fire control program in northern Manitoba, to have an extinguisher in the house, to understand how to use that extinguisher, to make certain that the extinguisher is checked on a regular basis; to have in the community equipment that is available for larger fires, to make certain that people know how to use that equipment and also to make certain that equipment is in good repair at all times.

So I would just like to, as I feel it is important as an opposition member, to support the Minister in efforts that I believe to be significant and that I believe to be positive and this is exactly one of those areas.

For whatever my commending the Minister is worth, I imagine it's probably worth as much as my criticizing the Minister, but for whatever it is worth, I do commend the Minister and the government on this particular issue and hope to seem them expand this program in the future because it is indeed a very necessary program, a very important program and it's the type of program that is going to pay off in very posit ive results, both economic and both humanitarian results in the near future.

So if I can be of any assistance to the Minister in this regard, either by supp ort or by promoting his efforts in th e communities, I assure him that I will do so in this specific regard. I don't want to get too general in my complime nts because it always me feel bad afterwa rds, but I do think that this is a good program, worthy of the government's attention and I think the gov ernment has made some major innovative changes in this regard. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. GOURLAY: I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the Member for Churchill for those comments. They are appreciated.

As a matter of interest, in 19 78-79, there was only one fire department in northern communities and this year we have some 4242

Monday, 2 June, 1980 25 fire departments in various communities. A big increase and so, the training costs account for the large increase or a large part of the increase. Just to briefly outline some of the training programs, there are two regional schools per area with 20 candidates per school. These regional schools were at Thompson, The Pas, Dauphin and Selkirk.

Four N school firefighting courses with 15 candidates each; th ere were 3 fire prevention courses with 15 candidates each; 2 fire service instructors courses with 10 candidates in each one of those; 2 fire chiefs courses, 15 candida tes each; 1 rescue course involving 15; Manitoba Fire College courses with 15 candidates and there was 15 0 local training schools involving 6 candidates each or involving a total of 900 people. MR. COWAN: Just one question from that and that is the 15 0 schools that the Minister mentioned lastly.

Are th ose schools that are held right in the community itself in regard to training local residents for fire protection? MR. GOURLAY: Yes, they are held right in the local communities. MR. COWAN: Again, I just want to suggest that I think that is a very positive way to go about it, to hold those schools in the community. It seems to, in the long term, have more impact.

It seems also to increase the awareness of persons not attending the school but just living in the community while the school is ongoing and it has an educational purpose for the whole community, as well as an educational purpose for the individuals who are learning how to better protect their lives and their property. So I encourage the Minister in that regard specifically. MR. CH AIRMAN: (1) (c)- pass; (1) (d)- pass; 3.(a)(2)(a)-pass; (2)(b) - the Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairp erson .

Perhaps we can just have a breakdown on this from the Minister again as to staff person years and changes, if any. MR. GOURLAY: On this

section we have 12 SMYs and no in crease for the current year. MR .. CHAIRMAN: (2)(a)-pass - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOST ROM: Mr. Chairman, perhap s the Minister would be more specific in what exactly this

section of his department is responsible for. MR. GOURLAY: This really involves the managers of the co-ordinators and secretaries and support. MR. BOSTROM: It's the managers of the co­ ordinators. Which

section handles the salaries and wages for the co-ordinators? MR. GOURLAY: The previous one was sharable with the Northlands and this one is not sharable. MR. BOSTROM: I see. Well, Mr. Chairman, I think it would be appropr iate to point out here to the Minister that the problems that appear to be coming forth, to the opposition at least, from the communities indicate that the system, as we were discussing before the break for supper, is not working as well as we would hope it would work.

That is, as I was mentioning earlier, that the co­ ordi nators appear to be not available to assist the communities at all times when they are required to assist the commu nities. Now, that may be a management problem, it may be a lack of staff. The other problem, as I indicated earlier, is that the co­ ordinating system is not working out as well as a dir ect delivery system and tha t is where the de partment is deliver ing th e programs di rectly through the department.

I don't suppose that this message is ge tting thr ough to the government because it appears they are not proposing to ch ange their delivery program. However, where there are co­ ordi nators who are attempting to co-ordinate the delivery of programs through various departments, it appears that this is where the major problem arises as far as the communities are concerned. They feel that they are getting the buck passed by the co­ ordinators who are not able to exercise the kind of authority they need to exercise in order to get the performance out of the other government departments.

I wonder if the Minister can indicate if he has any idea of the problems in this area and if he has any sugge stions for solutions to th ose problems. MR. GOURLAY: Thanks, Mr. Chairman, in dealing with the item with respect to the co-ord inators, I'd like to indica te that the co-o rdi nators, on the average, visi t the commu nitie s twice a month. However, there has been in one instance, in one community, where the co-ordinator was in seven times in one month and some of the communities feel that the co-ordinator comes in too often and doesn't let them get on with their own work.

Also, the quest ion with respect to co-ord inating the various departments, as I understand it, the previous government chang ed this so that there would be more co-ordination with the various departments. As Minister of Northern Affairs, I find that this has worked well from where I can see it. It avoids a duplication of services in the province and for the most part the co-o rdinated effort has worked out reasonably well. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, it has achieved just the opposite in my opinion because rather than having a co-ordinator from Northern Affairs or a line delivery person handling departmental services to a communi ty you now have several di fferent departments having to deal with that community. If there is a road to be built in a community, for example, that, as I understand it, is handled not directly by the Department of Northern Affairs but there is a co-ordinator from Northern Affairs who is attempting to co- ordina te the efforts of the Department of Hi ghways.

The same appl ies for airstrip maintenance, airstrip construction, I think winter road construction. Where there communities relating to a co-ordinator for those things, they also have to relate to line departments of gov ernment, so that you have not one civil servant travelling to a community and dealing with all of the problems that arise in that commun ity but you have several 4243

Monday, 2 June, 1980 different departments. If you have a water system problem it's no longer Northern Affairs that handle it, it's another department. If you have a problem with respect to Public Works, as I understand it from your descri ption earlier, you 're depending on th e Department of Government Services for these things, so that there is no longer that capability within one de partment to del iver those services to the community.

I'm not an advocate of all services being delivered by one department because I think that is not the way to go either; but as far as all of the local and municipal kinds of services that are delivered to a community, I think that these can be more efficiently delivered under the auspices of one department rather than having several different departments. Not only is it an advantage in terms of efficiency, in terms of having only one agent from the department travel ling into the commu nity, but it's also an advantage in terms of the performance of the department.

Because when the Department of Northern Affairs had the respo nsibility of delivering services to communities, those were high priority items for them. That was their budget to deliver. Now you have the tail end. The Department of Highways may have a

section in there to do roads in northern communities, and they end up doing those things the last item on their list of priorities, so to speak, so that many of these things, they never really got the job done in many cases. I know of several communi ties th at have complained to me about their roads not having been gravelled or roads not having been constructed when the budget was there. They should have been done over the summer, and no action was taken. Now it wasn't for lack of trying on the part of the co­ ordinators.

I'm not faulting them in this process, but I think that they did not have the authority or the clout to go to the Department of Hig hways and say, hey, this is a high priority; get on with .the job and have this job completed during the construction season. Unfortunately, because that was only a minor item in terms of the agenda or the budg et for th e Department of Hi ghways, they put it on a back burner and the end of the summer comes, the end of the construction season, and nothing is done.

This has happened in more than one case and I think this is where the complaints are coming out from the communities, that they don't see the same kind of efficiency in performance from the Department of Northern Affairs that they saw in the past. You can argue in other cases that there were problems in the administration in Northern Affairs before and I admit there probably were, but there were growing pains as a new department.

But the fact that you have a budget for a department and they have a program to deliver, it's going to be delivered much more effectively through one line department th an having several depa rtments atte mpting to deliver several tiny packages, in relative terms. When one thinks of a small community and there may be half a mile or a mile of road to hook up to a new subdi vision in a community, there may be a piece of water line to put in, there may be a pump house to build, that sort of thing, and you may have several different departments involv ed in tho se activies;

whereas before the Department of Northern Affairs would handle all of those things as a matter of their program budget. I think that's where you are having pr oblems. Tha t's where the communi ties are complaining. Now you may choose to ignore those things and go merrily on your way and not attempt to find any solution to them, but I'm simply pointing out to you that I do not believe the system of having co­ ordi nators in the field , with several different de partments responsible for delivering several different little pieces of the action, will ever work in practice. MR.

GOURLAY: I would say at the outset that I'd be the first to admit that . . . There are problems, no doubt, but the co-ordinator of the community is involved in all the projects, involved with the various departments that might be doing the work for the community. The major projects might be delivered by other departments or the smaller ones could be done by the com munity itse lf. This, I wou ld say, is definitely on the increase. There is more and more work being done by the local communities in the nor th. The larger pro jects are done by other departments.

For instance, in 1979, there were 11 5 projects, of which 105 were completed; plus there were 43 other projects that weren't originally planned for that were completed, as well. I think, sure there were problems, but I think the record speaks for itself that a lot was accomplished. For sure, you're not always going to make everybody happy. MR. CHAIRMAN: (2)(a)- pass; (2)(b)- pass; (2)(c)­ pass - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, on (2)(c), could the Minister indicate what he is planning to do with the funds? MR.

GOURLAY: In this section, this is the money that goes to the communities for their operation and maintenance. MR. CHAIRMAN: (2)(c)- pass; (2)- pass; (3)(b)(1)­ pass - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, rather tha n interrupt each time when we come to a

section like this, I would ask in advance that the Minister put on the record what the appropriation is for, what staff man years are in each section, etc. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In this

section there are 21 SMYs. There was an increase of 4 during the current year. MR. CHAIRMAN: (3)(b)(1) -pass - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister indicate more specifically what this

section is for, Communi ty Works; what are the funds appropriated for? MR. GOURLAY: This area covers the community infrastructur e plans in conjunction with the com munity's local government services staff and 4244

Monday, 2 June, 1980 other government departments for the delivery of the infrastructure requirements such as airports, water and sewer, or garbage facilities, subdi visions, or roads, and so forth. It also ensures that all water systems are operational, and safe drinking water. It trains local water system operators so that they can keep this thing functioning without having to call someone from a distance to work on it. It co­ ordinates the regular inspection reports and submits water samples to the Department of Health, that sort of thing. It provides liaison with other departments and agencies. MR.

CH AIRMAN: 3.(b)(1 )- pass; 3.( b)(2)- pass; 3.(b)(3)- pass; 3.(c)(1)(a)- pass - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, my standing request is on the record. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister on (c). MR. GOURLAY: On the 7 staff man years in this section, there is no change in the present year. The list of activities is staff training related to the develop ment of local self gov ernment, develop training resources materials which directly support the development of local government units and maintains community profiles for some 50 northern and remote communities.

It directs the taking and compilation of communities censuses in the Northern Affairs communities every three years. It carries out the functions of the principal electoral officer and maintains the departmental library. MR. CH AIRMAN: (c)( 1 )(a)- pass; (1) (b)-p ass; (1 )(c)- pass - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, before we pass this

section here, 3. Local Government Development, could the Minister elaborate on this

section and indicate what changes, if any, he has made since he has become Minister in the delivery of services to local government, and what changes, if any, he is proposing for this year in terms of the delivery of those services; and th e kinds of needs the department must meet in terms of local government development and in terms of developing councils to be better management units, in terms of the department assisting the communi ties in better planning, in terms of assisting the communities to become more self-reliant in the municipal status point of view?

As I see this thing unfolding so far, I mean, there is very little change, if any, from when the NOP were in government, in terms of the

section under consideration. I would like to know if the Minister is looking at this from the point of view of changing the delivery system. The comments I made earlier related to items that were not so much the items that are in the budget but those that are not in the budget. This department is a failure, not by what it has in the budget but by what it does not have in the budget, and our criticism of the department is that they are concentrating too much on only that one side of the Northern Affairs mandate, original mandate, and that is of developing a municipal government.

There is another mandate that we feel should be in the works of Northern Affairs and that is to develop the total community, the community development, economic development particularly, where we assist the commu nity councils to be mor e than simply municipal authorities.

Because in many cases the people on the munici pal councils in northern communi ties are the natural leaders in the community and people look to them to provide leadership, not only from a municipal point of view to look after the roads and airstrips and water systems but also to assist them in terms of dealing with government in a general way and helping them to develop their community from an economic point of view.

Now the government here appears to be doing a satisfactory job of carrying on those programs that were in place under the NOP government and that is of assisting the municipal side of the councils, but what are they doing further than that? I mean, are there any items in this budget to work with the communities in assisting them to be more than simply managers of the municipals services? That's a very small part of the community. Most communities in northern Manitoba are small units and have very few services.

They're not like the rural municipalities you have in the south or the villages and municipal councils you have here, which naturally have a wider tax base and much more services to administer, and really look after things mainly from the municipal point of view and don't get involved in the economic side of affairs. But in the local communities, my experience with the councils in the north are that they would like to be more than simply municipal councils.

They would like to have a wider manadate and one of assisting their com munity from a point of view of total development, of looking at the economic side to see what resources can be developed, what programs can be established in the community to assist the community to develop job opportunities and resource development opportunities, for individuals and groups.

And in fact where there is in itiative lacking on the part of individuals and groups, the council in some cases takes on that leadership role in the community and attempts to get something going, a logging operation or a fishing operation or a wild rice harvesting operating, or whatever. I'm wondering if the department is looking at that or if they simply, as I suspect, are looking at the council simply as municipal units and doing a credible job of looking after that side of their mandate but not doing very much of the other that I'm discussing. MR. CHAIRMAN: (3)(b) ... MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, I would appreciate a response from the Minister. MR. GOU RL AY: Without making a specific reference to Economic Development in this particular

section here, the question as to what are we doing with th e councils. It was ind icated earlie r the extensive program in fire protection. We're also in the process of revamping the election process and training for elected council members. We're planning to have the elections held over a one-month period rather than scattered throughout the year. We've had the concurrence from the communities to go this 4245

Monday, 2 June, 1980 route. Also, as was indicated, although it was slow for a couple of years, it now appears that there's going to be an increased number of communities that are going to become self-ad ministering. So those are some of the areas that we're working on. The Econom ic Development, I think, we'll be dealing with that probably a little further on in the estimates, 4 (c). MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)- pass - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOST ROM: The Minis ter ind icates he'll proba bly be dealing with it further on in the estimates ... MR. GOURLAY: Under 4.(c). MR.

BOSTROM: . . . coming out in reality is that this department is not dealing with that aspect I'm dis cussing and th at is the economic side of development in the comm uniti es has been completely left out of the Northern Affairs mandate. The previous Minister and this Minister have worked towards and achieved their goal of removing from Northern Affairs any mandate to work with the communities in northern Manitoba from an Economic Development and total community development point of view. They appear to be concentrating primarily on th ose things which are imp ortant.

I'm not discounting them at all, but primarily they're working on things like the development of the councils as municipal units and that's a very important mandate for Northern Affairs and it's one which I commend them for doing. I don't criticize them for carrying that out. It's something which must be done and should be done vigourously, enthusiastically. But the other part of the mandate is equally important and it requires, I think, more initiative and more imagination and more ambition on the part of government than simply working with the councils from a municipal point of view.

It's very easy to carry out that aspect of development in a community, where you turn someone, a local leader, into an effective admin istrator of the municipal services, th at's esse ntially what you're doing in local government development. You're assisting them to develop into what southern Manitoba has enjoyed for many years, competent administrators of local services looking after the roads and the ditches and the drainage and the water services and all of the things that must be done. I mean, to me that's a very necessary part of local government. I find it personally very boring.

If I was a municipal councillor I would be much more interested in the other aspect of it and I suppose that's why I'm interested in that and would like to see the Department of Northern Affairs pursuing that aspect of it and that is the development of the total community, not only the municipal side. But what will be the future economic base for that community? What's the point of putting in infrastructure?

What's the point of putting in roads and water systems and subdivisions and arenas or recreational facilities, all these nice things that are important to have for services to the community, but what's the point of having those things if that community is going to dry up and die because there is no economic base? The economic base is equally as important as putting in municipal services and infrastructure and training people to be effective managers of th at infrastructure.

It's equally impo rtant for Northern Affairs to work with those communities to ensure that they have a future and an economic base on which that community will be able to rely in the future, and be able to hopefully gather revenues from to be able to pay for some of these municipal services. Right now the Department of Northern Affairs - I'm sure the Minister is painfully aware of that - is the department that pays for many of the services to northern communities.

The economic base is not there for the communities to be able to pay through their local taxes for the infrastructure like many of the communities in southern Manitoba do. Ho wever, the mandate in Northern Affairs, the objective of Northern Affairs, should be to assist those communities to develop that economic base so they don't have to rely on a department like Northern Affairs forever; that some day they're going to be on their own, an incorporated council; they're going to have an economic base that they can rely on. Maybe in some communities it's an impossible dream but in some communities it's not.

Some have a resource base that they could develop and build on and hopefully achieve a certain economic base, at least to provide a livelihood for a certain base of population over a long period of time and that's the kind of thing that the Northern Affairs Department should be doing.

It should be relating the resources in the area to the community and being very honest with the community as well with respect to those resources and saying: These are your resources, this, as we can best estimate it, is the future potential for your community, these are the kind of job oppo rtunities that th ese resou rces could hopefully provide for your community through proper development.

There should be an opportunity there, a technical assistance and financial management and managerial assistance provided thr ough a department like Northe rn Affairs to th ose communities so that they may develop that side of their community. That is a much more challenging task and a much more long-range useful task, than the one which this department appears to be simply carrying out now and that is of putting in municipal services and training councils to look after them. MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I indicated what we were doing in this Municipal Support Services, training councillors and changing the election procedure and what not. Many of these things the people are asking for. When I mentioned that we'll be discussing the Economic Development later on in the estimates, I didn't mean to say that we weren't doing anything about it or we're not inte reste d, we cert ainly are. Ho wever, at this particular

section we're dealing with the municipal aspect of it and certainly I'd want to address the question of economic development further on in the estimates, which I have indicated come under 4.(c), I understand. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)- pass; 4.(a) - sorry. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, I don't recall moving off (

c) but I had a question on (d). 4246

Monday, 2 June, 1980 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right, 3.(

d) then. I'd passed 3.(c), I thought, but maybe we're ... 3.(d) - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, as I understand it, this

section contains the funding for various agencies which the department provides grant funding to. I wonder if the Minister could outline the agencies that fall under this

section and how much, if any, grants are payable to them this year. MR. GOURLAY: Thanks, Mr. Chairm an. The Northern Association of Community Councils come under this se ction; Na tiv e Commu nications Incorporated; the Supplement to Tax Sharing. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, I don't believe that's an all-inclusive list. I wonder, has the Minister just paused or if he has more to add. MR. GOURLAY: Yes. There's also the MMF Corps funding which is in this allocation. MR. BOSTROM: Could the Minister indicate how much of a grant is payable to each of th ose associations? MR. GOURLAY: Yes.

The NACC this year is 16 7.6 thousand and the NCI is 95,000; the MMF Corps funding is 130.8 thousand and the Supplement to Tax Sharing is 15, 000.00. MR. BOSTROM: Does the Minister have a line on this budget where he pays money out to the councils as corps funding, as a payment per capita grant? MR. GOURLAY: Yes, that's built into the payout directly to the community councils this year. That's built in as a payment to the councils rather than a MR. BOST ROM: Yes, Mr . Chairman. On th at aspect of it I assume we have passed th at somewhere or are we coming to that item in your budget, the payout to councils? MR.

GOURLAY: Yes, 3. (2)(c), Commu nity Operations. That money is included in that budget there. MR. BOSTROM: Can the Minister indicate on that if there has been any increase in the per capita grant to the councils? Is it the same amount as previous? MR. GOURLAY: It's the same amount that's been paid in the past but it's added to the ongoing budget. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)- pass - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, the grant funding which the Minister indicated, there are four agencies, there are four items that he's indicated make up the 408,000 in the budget, can he indicate if these funds have been paid out to these organizations at this time? MR. GOURLAY: The MMF has not been allocated and the NACC and the Native Communi cations are quarterly payments and the first quarter has gone out to the NACC and the Native Communi cations. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, on that, I wonder if the Minister can indicate if he has made up his mind yet with respect to the Manitoba Metis Federation corps funding. MR.

GOURLAY: With respect to the MMF corps funding, as I announced a few days ago, an advisory committee has been established to look into all aspects of the funding to Metis organizations and delivery of programs to the Metis people. This committee has been requested to report back to me on or before the end of September and, until such time, no moneys will be paid out re the corps funding allocation. MR. BOSTROM: Can the Minister indicate who makes up this committee which is investigating this matter and has the mandate to make recommendations to him? MR.

GOURLAY: I have contacted the MMF and the Manitoba Metis Confedera cy as well as the Northern Commu nity Councils and the Metis Women's Association and the Mani toba Assoc iation of Friendship Centres. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, is the Minis ter saying that he has not yet set up the committee, that he has contacted these people or these organizations to make recommendations to him? MR. GOURLAY: I'm in the process of getting names from these organizations to participate in this advisory committee.

They've all been contacted and half of th ose th at have been contacted have responded and I believe, th ere's still two organizations to hear from yet. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister indicate who all will make up the committee? Will this simply be the members of these organizations that he has named or will there be additional representatives on the committee and if so, who will they be? MR. GOURLAY: Thank you. There'll be an official from the Department of Northern Affairs. Mr. Hank Light will be chairing the Advisory Commi ttee. MR.

BOSTROM: Can the Minister be more specific as to the effective mandate of this committee? Will the recommendations made to him be binding on him in terms of his decision with respect to this funding? MR. GOURLAY: These will be recommendations that will come to myself as Minister.

We hope that this exercise will clearly identify the role of the Metis organizations in the province and we also hope that it will enable the various Metis groups to participate in a review of provincial progra mming available for impr oving the situation of Metis people in th e province of Manitoba and also to review the funding requirements of the Metis organizations. 4247

Monday, 2 June, 1980 MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, I would like the Minister to indicate, if he can; why he has seen fit to take this step, this year, with respect to the corps funding for the Manitoba Metis Federation. This is an ongoing grant which I believe the Metis Federation has been receiving for several years and I believe it's something which they use to assist them in the corps administration of their organization.

The Minister may have his opinions as to the Manitoba Metis Federation and whether or not they represent all of the Metis people in Manitoba but why has he taken this decision this year and held back this money, perhaps jeopardizing the effective organization of this group? Holding this decision off until September certainly puts them in limbo. It would effectively, I would say, destroy this organization if in fact this were the only source of funding for this organization.

Luckily, they probably have other sources of funding but if this were the only source of funding how would he expect them to operate for that period of time, from the beginning of the fiscal year until September, when and if he makes up his mind with respect to the future of the corps funding which is presently allocated in the budget for this purpose? MR. GOURLAY: Well, Mr. Chairman, first of all, the provincial corps funding only made up a very small part of the total corps funding requirements of the MMF.

I felt that this was an opportune time to review the corps funding situation with respect to the many concerns that had been brought to my attention, not only by Metis people in general but by a good percentage of Metis people that belong to the MMF that expressed concerns they had with respect to the way the organization had been operating in recent years and they felt th at some ch anges were necessary.

As you are aware, I only took over respon sibility for this part as of April 1 this year and because of the concerns primarily that were being expressed to me by, as I mentioned earlier, a large percentage of the MMF people themselves, as well as other Metis people that didn't belong to any organization in particular, and there was some indication that some of the programs that were being administered by the MMF were only available to those people that belonged to the organization and wasn't made available to Metis people that might not belong to the MMF.

I found that very difficult to understand, why we would continue to promote, as a provincial gove rnment, this sort of thing, denying people that chose not to belong to an organization for their own good reasons. Unfortunately, I would have hoped that we could have expected this advisory group to bring in recommendations sooner but I think, in fairness to them, even September 30th might be pushing it with respect to getting a meaningful survey or study of the things that have been requested of them. I might say that a lot of the organizations that I've contacted look at this very positively.

They feel they welcome this opportunity and so this is basically the reason that I've requested this study. MR. CHAIRMAN: I guess the Committee will have to rise temporarily, I suppose, and go into the House for ... MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I move that Committee rise. (PR OCEEDINGS INTERRUP TED for Department of Education vote in the House.) SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (Cont'

d) MR. CHAIRMAN: I call the committee to order. We're on Resolution 11 5, 3.(d). The Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: The Minister was speaking when we left, and he did not conclude his comments. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, that's right, the Member for Rupertsland; maybe I'll give the Minister a chance to complete what he was addressing. The Honourable Minister. MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was more or less just concluding my remarks with respect to the reason why I had established an advisory group to review the corps funding and I think pretty well I'd covered what I intended to say. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, regardless of what I may think of the Manitoba Metis Federa tion, whether or not they're administering their affairs the way in which their membership would like to see them administer their affairs, or whether or not they are representing the interests of their membership in the way in which their membership and/or Metis people who are not members of the organization would like to see them represent the interests of Metis people in the province of Manitoba, I do not believe it is really the Minister's mandate to interfere in the democratic operation of the federation as an association representing Metis people.

I find his attempt at the solution by naming a committee of other associations, none of which have had their funding cut back or held back, while they are sitting for six months or four months, or whatever the case may be, on a committee deciding on the future of the corps funding of the Manitoba Metis Federation, I don't find this to be an effective solution. All associations and groups of people that are banding together for a common purpose, from time to time have problems in their organizations.

Not so many years ago the Northern Association of Community Councils went through a similar period and they managed to work this out through their own democratic structure, having the matter eventually resolved th rough numerous meetings and a conference representing all of the northern communities involved. Some of the commun ities refused to join the association for a period of time because they were upset with the way in which the Northern Association of Commun ity Councils was administering their affairs.

I don't recall the government at the time saying, if you don't straighten things out, we're going to cut off your funding. I'm sure encouragement was given to them to straighten out their affairs but they managed to do that and the initiative for that change and that straightening out of their affairs came from within the organization as a democratic group. They had their meetings. They straightened out their problems. They had their fights. They made the necessary changes in 4248

Monday, 2 June, 1980 the organization that they felt were necessary to make it more effective, in terms of its representation and also in terms of its administration. I believe that would be the natural result of the Minister leaving this situation alone and allowing the Melis people in Ma nitoba to resolve their own problems. I don't believe that the Minister should be interfering in the process in this way. In fact I have to suspect that the Minister has other motives for holding back the funding for the Manitoba Metis Federation.

I have to suspect that the government is not very happy with the Manitoba Metis Federation as a group, because they happen to be one which has been vocal in their support of demonstrations agains t both th e federal government and the provincial government.

Most notably, perhaps, was the statements that came out by the Manitoba Metis Federation during the sit-in by the Norway Ho use Communi ty Metis group in the summer of 19 79 and in other cases the Manitoba Metis Federation I believe, has been involved in various forms of lobby with the government, various forms of critique of the government, through the MMM Comm ittee, to name one, where they pointed out that there's a high degree of unemployment in northern Manitoba and made proposals to the government to attempt to resolve that problem.

Now the fact remains that the Manitoba Metis Federation has that as one of its objectives, to represent the interest of Melis people, and if they were not critical of government from time to time I would think that they would not be performing their job effectively. They were critical of government when we were in gover nment. The President of the Manitoba Metis Feder ation, when we were in government was a Cons ervative; the President of the Manitoba Metis Federation when the Conservatives are in government happens to be probably someone who is not a Conservative.

Now that should not affect the way in which the government deals with an assoc iation. I mean I don't believe the government shou ld be punishing an association because the leader of the assoc iation or members of the association happen to differ in their political views from the government of the day. In fact it's probably most effective as a critique or a lobby group, if they're not the friends of the government. When I was first elected to the Legislature I had been just formerly an emplo yee of the Northern Associ atio n of Communi ty Councils.

My fi rst recommendation to them, as a new MLA, was to not become politically aligned in terms of an association because, as I recommended to them, they should attempt to keep as politically neutral as possible, be as effective as they can be in their criticism of the government but they have to be able to maintain some neutrality in terms of their criticism because they're going to have to work with different gov ernments. It may be a New Democratic government they have to work with and the next government may be Conservative.

In each case, they have to be able to represent the interests of the group that they are representing and in doing that they can't be in a position to be either punished in one case or maybe rewarded in the other. They have to represent the interests of the group the most effective way they can. I believe that advice is applicable in the case of the government and their handling of the Manitoba Metis Federation. They sh ouldn't look at the Ma nitoba Metis Federation as a natural enemy to be stamped out simply because the Metis Federation happens to be disagreeing with them.

I mean, that's the nature of the association. The more they are disagreeing with the government, probably the more effective they are oper ating as an entity, as a group representing their people. In the case of the Metis in Manitoba, certainly they are a disadvantaged group. They are a dis advantaged group geographically because many of them live in remote communities; they are a disadvantaged group even in the urban area because they have difficult problems adjusting to the urban environment and are often coming into the urban environment ill-prepared for the challenges of an urban type of life.

I think that the Manitoba Metis Federation should attempt to work out its problems, if they have problems, within their own organization. The Minister, I would think, would be mor e effective in giving th e Mani toba Melis Federation six months to work out their problems than to set up a committee to be an investigative comm ittee into th eir organi zation. Mo st of th e committee of whom represent other organizations that are perhaps competitive in their interests, may not have as their interest the continuation of the Manitoba Metis Federation.

It may have, in their interests, objectives of obtaining that funding for themselves, rather than having the Metis Federation have that corps funding. I would recommend to the Minister that he not set up such a committee but, in fact, allow the Manitoba Metis Federation to have their first four -month instalment of their corps funding on condition that they have a full conference of their membership.

In fact, if the Minister were to show good faith in this he would in fact assist the Metis Federation in having such a conference, in terms of assisting them in paying the expenses of such a conference, so that the Metis people of Manitoba could come together and discuss their grievances, if they have them, in a democratic way and have those grievances aired and have them resolved in a democratic way. The Minister's handling of the situation is similar to his handling of the LGD affair in the LGD of Alexander which I think was demons trated to be poorly handled.

The Minister and his staff showed poor judgement in the handling of that, as I think they are showing poor judgement in the handling of the Manitoba Metis Federation. I don't believe it's the Minister's or departmental staff, their mandate to get involved in the int ernal operations of an association or internal operations of a LGD, like the LGD of Alexander. It was demonstrated by members of the Legislature that in the case of the LGD, a departmental employee got involved in the politics of the municipal council in seeking the resignations of one or more councillors. I believe that is . . . MR.

GOURLAY: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister on a point of order. MR. GOURLAY: Are we talking about Municipal Affairs or Northern Affairs? 4249

Monday, 2 June, 1980 MR. BOSTROM: Well, we're getting into the same kind of situation, Mr. Chairman. I'm only referring to the LGD of Alexander by way of comparison and the comparison I think is legitimate in that, in the case of the LGD of Alexander, the Minister interfered in the operations, the Minister's department interfered in the operations of the LGD to the extent of causing problems there and did not allow the . democratic process to work out as freely as it should.

In the case of Manitoba Metis Federation, the Minister is now getting involved in the internal operations of the Manitoba Metis Fed erat ion by es tabl ishing an investigative committee, so to speak, to look at the operations of the Manitoba Metis Federation and pass judgement on them. I think that would be more appropriately done by the Metis people of Manitoba collectively, and as widely-based and as grass-roots a representation as possible.

The most effective means for th at kind of representation would probably be a conference of Metis people held in a geographic area that would be most accessible and as soon as possible so that the Metis people of Manitoba could come together and discuss their problems and to decide on a course of action. I think that the Minister interfering in this way is uncalled for; I think it's bad judgement on his part. I deplore this kind of handling of this situation.

It simply smacks of - what will we call it - political punishment of a group that has taken unpopular stands in terms of this gov ernment, has taken stands against this gov ernment in terms of its northern policies, in terms of its employment policies, in terms of its lack of action for unemployment for the Metis people of Manitoba and have been very vocal in that regard. I simply think th at this government is attempting to not provide corps funding to the Manitoba Metis Federation as a means of punishment of them and they are simply setting up this committee to delay that process.

My recommendation to these groups would be that they not participate in such a sham and I think it is a sham, because the Minister is not saying that their judgement, their recommendations to him will be accepted. He may take their recommendations under advisement, wait another six months before making a decision and there goes your complete fiscal year and the Manitoba Metis Federation will be simply out their corps funding for the fiscal year, 1980-8 1. It appears that is the objective of the government and they are attempting to use the other Met is organizations in Manitoba to assist them in this sham.

I think it's unfortunate that the Minister is following this tactic. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)- pass - the Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. On this item, the Minister indicated earlier in the House that the Manitoba Metis Federation had undergone a series of audits in regard to their corps funding. I'd ask the Minister if he can elaborate on why those audits were called and specifically what the results of those audits were? MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It was a review of the audits, as I indicated, the government has attached no string s to the corps funding.

However, the recommendation from the Auditor was that there appeared to be an excessive amount of spending in travel and meetings. However, as far as the government was concerned, they had attached no strings to how the money was to be spent. As I understand it, the money that was provided by the province went into a fund, together with other funding that had been given to the MMF, and so it was difficult to criticize the MMF for the way they had spent the money because we really hadn't established any areas in which they were to spend the money specifically.

The Provincial Auditor only received the other audit; he didn't conduct one himself, he just reviewed the audits that had been done. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. So, in fact, there were no irregularities in regard to the audits. There may have been some, what the Minister or the government or even the Auditor thought, inappropriate uses of money but nothing that was irregular or nothing that would indicate that the funding should be withdrawn from the MMF as a result of those audits.

They, in fact, showed that their accounting practices were acceptable and that their spending, in fact, was acceptable, given th e conditions under which the money was provided them. Is that true? · MR. GOURLAY: Yes, that's basically true. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. - the Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. Well under this same item, we see a grant to the NACC and a grant to Native Communications. Has the Minister over the past year conducted any audits of those organizations? MR. GOURLAY: No, there has been no audit on NCI? MR. COWAN: Or the NACC, is that correct, also? MR.

GOURLAY: We received the Auditor's reports from the NACC and the NCI. MR. COWAN: I'm sorry, I apologize to the Minister. There have been no special audits, other than the normal Auditor reports that would come at the financial year-e nd, is that correct? MR. GOURLAY: No special audits, that's right. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. In fact the Manitoba Metis Federation was the only group, under this particular section, that was singled out to be audited, is that correct? MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Actually there was no audit done, as such, it was just a review of audits that had been provided by the MMF. MR. COWAN: Well, on th at technicality, Mr. Chairperson, then, I'd ask the Minister if these were special considerations given to the Manitoba Metis Federation, the review of the audits that had been conducted and that were not given to the other organizations. In other words, the Manitoba Metis 4250

Monday, 2 June, 1980 Federation was in fact singled out for this sort of a process, is that not correct? MR. GOUR LAY: Yes, this is correct, mainly because of allegations that were directed at the MMF . MR. COWAN: I'd ask the Minister then if there had been any allega tions brought to his attention directed at other organiza tions receiving grants under this particular section? MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No, not to my knowledge. MR.

COWAN: I would ask the Minister if there has not been, from time to time, discontent perhaps expressed, in regard to some of the activities of the se organi zations or the way in which thes e organizations are structured, to the Minister, or even the Minister, having been in his portfolio only a short time, I should ask him if he anticipates that in the future there may be such complaints brought to his office as has been the practice in the past MR. GOURLAY: I think in all fairness to the other organizations there were more strings attached in specific areas in which the money was to be used. MR.

COWAN: My question to the Minister is more general than that, Mr. Chairperson. My question is perhaps too philosophical to ask in specific terms as I have been attempting so I'll put it in generalities. Organizations are made up of people; people differ. That's part of the joy as well as part of the problems of living in a society th at tr ies to structure its activities via organizations, via structures.

I can relate it to my own experience which is the union experience and I know some very good unions who have been positive and progressive for the most part have, from time to time, had discontents within their movement who have expressed concern over the way in which the union was handlings its activities, have expressed some complaints in regard to where the money goes and how the money goes.

I'd ask the Minister if he would not anticipate that might happen from time to time in any organization that is comprised of a large number of people and is responsible for providing services for those people and also as high profile in the provision of such services. Is that not a generality that we can accept as members of this committee that will from time to time occur? MR. GOURLAY: Well, I would find it very difficult to forecast just what problems might arise with any given organization in any given year. I wouldn't want to say that this could be a problem or may not be a problem. MR .

COWAN: Will the Min ister accept the philos ophical tenet then that when you have an organization of a large number of people that come from different geog raphies, from different occupations, from different areas, from different backgrounds, that you will from time to time have conflict within that organization in regard to how people perceive the function of that organization and how people perceive the operation of that organ ization? It's not an extremely difficult question, I think it's one that is fairly self-e vident, if the Minister is willing to admit that such is the case.

I think if he looks back upon his own experience he may find examples upon which to dra w which he can extrapolate into future and say that it may not be this organization or that organization in a specific sense, but that generally those problems do from time to time occur. Is that an unusual statement in the Minister's opinion or is that a statement that does hold some validity? MR. GOURL AY: I think that's a reasonable statement and I think it's also important that we know, as government, where public money is being spent and how it's been spent MR.

CHAIRMAN: To the Member for Churchill, the Leader of the Opposition has been trying to get in for some time now. All right, th e Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Out of deference to my leader, Mr. Chairperson, I'll be as short as I can. I would just like to pursue the questioning a bit if I can and then I'm certain that my leader will take ample opportunity to put his questions in, with his permission, of course.

I'd ask the Minister then if one is to expect these types of situations to arise from time to time, is it not unusual that in the middle of a financial period that the Minister acting upon the advice of a number of complaints, would for that financial period, after the fact, refuse to live up to a financial commitment made previously by the previous Minister and by his own gov ernment. Is that not an unusual way to react to what would appear to be some fairly normal and commonplace occurrences? MR. GOURLA Y: I think that would be dependent on the receiver of the grant. MR.

COWAN: What the Minister is telling me then is that he is willing to make a value judgement as to the approp riateness of that organization receiving the grant Is that an accurate assessment of what he has just told the committee? MR. GOUR LAY: I think perhaps one of the unfortunate situations, with respect to the MMF, is that, as I see it, that there weren't more strings attached to the funding to the organization. MR. COWAN: Was there not a commitment made by the previous Minister for the corps funding that is now being withheld from the Ma nitoba Metis Federation? MR. GOURLA Y: Excuse me, Mr.

Chairman, my apologies to the Member for Churchill. I didn't catch that question. MR. COWAN: I'm sorry, perhaps I rattled it off too quickly. Can the Minister confirm that in fact there was a commi tment by the previous Mini ster of Northern Affairs, the one who preceded this Minister directly, in regard to the amount of 131 ,800 corps funding that is now being with held from th e Manitoba Metis Federation, did the Mi nister not 4251

Monday, 2 June, 1980 commit that money in writing to the Manitoba Metis Federation for this financial year? MR. GOURLAY: Not to my knowledge. MR. COWAN: Has the Minister checked with the previous Minister to see if that is not the case? MR. GOURLAY: I haven't specifically asked him that question but I am sure that had he done such a thing he would have responded to me on it. But I can certainly check with him. MR. COWAN: You mean to tell me, Mr.

Chairperson, that the Minister has withheld funding to the amount of 131 ,800 without checking with the previous Minister to see if there was a commitment made for that funding? Would the Minister now take the opportunity to check with his staff to see if perhaps they know of such a commitment? MR. GOURLAY: Certainly th ere was no commitm ent made by staff and these items are discussed in Cabinet and certainly there was no indication given to me in Cabinet that there had been written indication from the previous Minister. MR.

COWAN: Was there any indication that there had been a commitment made at all by the previous Minis ter that wou ld have arisen during th ose conversations? MR. GOURLAY: To my knowledge there was no commitment given at all by the previous Minister. MR. COWAN: Mr. Chairperson, it's not like we're springing this upon the Minister, it's been a subject of public debate and a subject of debate within the Legislature.

Is the Minister telling us that he has never taken the opportunity to discuss this matter with the previous Minister as to determine whether or not the previous Minister had, in fact, explicitly or in an imp lied manner, comm itted the Minister's government to this corps funding? MR. GOURLAY: I would like to put on record that I've had a number of discussions with the previous Minister. We've discussed this issue at length with respect to the program for the current year and I can only say that to my knowledge no commitment was made by the previous Minister with respect to the current year's funding. MR.

COWAN: Would the Minister then take the opportunity between now and tomorrow to perhaps discuss with the Minister as to whether or not there was an implied or explicit commitment in regard to this funding and report back to us by tomorr ow because I imagine we'll be fairly well through these estimates at that time and would like to discuss this matter further on the basis of the best available evidence and that includes all the information. Would the Minister undertake that commitment at this time? MR. GOURLAY: Yes, I would be prepared to discuss this and ask the previous Minister and report back. MR.

COWAN: In regard to this funding under this grant section, the Minister indicated there will be a task force, so to speak, set up to determine whether the funding is now being proceeded with in an appropriate manner or whether there should be changes made in funding. I would understand that the NACC of course would be a part of that task force, that the Metis Women's Association would be a part, that the MFF would be a part. I understand that some approach has been made to the Manitoba Association of Friendship Centres.

I attended their annual convention this weekend in Lynn Lake and I know they were discussing whether or not they should opt into that program or not. Can the Minister indicate if any of those other organizations have had their funding withheld until the determination of the committee has been made. MR. GOURLAY: No, there has been no fundings withheld from those organizations. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. Has the Minister invited the representatives of the Melis Confederacy to sit on that committee also? MR. GOURLAY: Yes. MR.

COWAN: The Minister indicates that he has indeed invited members of that Confede racy to sit on the committee. Does the Con federacy in fact have any official recognition from the government? MR. GOURLAY: No. MR. COWAN: Does the Confederacy in fact have any official recognition from the Melis community in Manitoba? MR. GOURLAY: I'm not sure whether they have. I doubt that they have perhaps. MR. COWAN: What does the Minister think of the Manitoba Metis Federation? MR. GOURLAY: I would say that the organization, over the years, I think has provided worthwhile effort to the Metis community.

I can honestly say that I haven't worked closely with them in the community. I know some of the people personally who belong to the organization and I have a lot of respect for those people as individuals, and I have no really serious hangup as far as the MMF is concerned and I know that it's been indicated that I am punishing the MMF for the fact that they held sit-ins here last year. I can honestly say that is not the case at all.

I look at this with a fairly open mind and in the case of announcing an advisory group to look at the Metis organization and its people, I must admit, contrary to what the Member for Rupertsland has indicated, that these people look at it very positively. They feel that this could be a very useful exercise. MR. COWAN: I would ask the Min ister, which people look at it very positively? MR. GOURLAY: The people from the various organizations that I have talked to that have been listed earlier tonight in discussions. 4252

Monday, 2 June, 1980 MR. COWAN: Would that include the Manitoba Metis Federation? MR. GOURLAY: Yes. MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I would ask the Mini ster if he has heard any complaints from Manitobans in regard to the Metis Conf ederacy in its operation. MR. GOURL AY: I haven't heard very much about the Conf ederacy to any extent. I had some visits from a few of the people who I understand belong to the Co nfederacy. I don't know much about their organization and that's really about all I can mention on it. MR.

COWAN: But the question was, has the Minister received any complaints in regard to the Confederacy? MR. GOURLAY: No, I have received no specific complaints. As a matter of fact, as I mentioned, I talked to only a few people who indicated to me that th ey belonged to the Conf ederacy. Most of the people I talked to indicated to me that they were members of the MMF , in some cases they were members of both organizations.

As I indicated earlier, the people who I talked to, you kno w, indicated they had some serious concerns about the way the MMF had been operating and they felt positively that the study could be a useful type of exercise. MR. COWAN: Would the Minister care to put a number, an approximate number also, to the number of persons who have been coming to him with complaints, as to the MM F? Are we talking about 5, 10 , 100, 1, 000? MR. GOURLAY: I would say it would be in the tens.

Just to add further to the previous question, if I received any complaints about the Confederacy and I don't know that I heard that many or any specific complaints, but there were some concerns expressed by the MMF executive with respect to the Conf ederacy. MR. COWAN: I would imagine that there have been some complaints expressed about the MMF from the Metis Conf ederacy executive also. Would that not be the case? MR. GOURLAY: That's right. MR. COWAN: I would imagine that would happen when you have discontent. You usually have people complaining about each other. Nothing unusual about that.

The Min ister has indi cated that he believes over the years that the Manitoba Metis Federation has provided worthwhile effort to the Metis community. Is that organiz ation still providing a worthwhile service to the community right now? MR. GOURLAY: Yes, I think in a lot of cases they have been provi din g go od service to their membership. From the information I gather, they don't go beyond helping their own membership primarily. MR.

COWAN: I would suggest to the Minister that a lot of there lobbying work, a lot of their projects are in fact designed to help the entire community in which they are implemented and that would go beyond the membership. I would also suggest that when a group such as the Manitoba Metis Federation does provide benefits to its membership, as well as to a group within society, that the whole society benefits in many ways as a result of that.

So that while they may direct a number of their programs to the membership, they are also playing a viable and valuable role in th eir commun itie s and also in Manitoba as a whole. I would hope that the Minister would agree with me in that regard. I asked the Minister the question because I would like to ask him now if he believes the withholding of the corps funding in any way will act to the detriment of the activities of the Manitoba Metis Federation?

In other words, will it stop them in any way from providing the valuable service which he has seen them providing in the years past and which he still considers them to be providing in many aspects? MR. GOURLAY: No, I don't anticipate that the corps funding that we are withholding at this time will seriously affect the operation of the MMF . As was indicated earlier, the bulk of their funding comes from other sources. MR. COWAN: I would ask the minister then what this funding has been used for in the past? MR. GOURLAY: You're referring to the MMF corps funding? That's for the operation of their central office.

MR. COWAN: So in fact that the withd rawal of this money, the withholding of this money will affect their central office operations to a significant degree? MR. GOUR LAY: It may or may not. MR. COWAN: But there is a possibility that it may. MR. GOURLAY: I would think that the chances are very slight because, as I indicated, we provide only a very small percentage of the corps funding. MR. COWAN: Does the Minister know how many people are emp loye d by the Manitoba Metis Federation in their central office? MR. GOURLAY: Possibly upwards of five. MR.

COWAN: Has the Minister advised himself as to how the withdrawal of this money will affect those five positions? MR. GOURLAY: I really can tell you that it can affect them to any large extent because there's only a small percentage of the funding being withheld. MR.

COWAN: It's only a small percentage of the total fund ing of the Manitob a Metis Federation, agreed, but it is a sizeable percentage of the office funding, the area in which it is specifically directed for the Ma nitoba Metis Federation, and I would suggest to the Minister if he investigates the situation thoroughly we'll find that it is going to have a 4253

Monday, 2 June, 1980 negative impact. If it were not to have a negative impact then why provide them with the funding in the first place? Because if the Minister says taking the funding away is not going to have a negative impact, then the converse is true and providing the funding would not have a positive impact, yet we know that it has in the past.

So I would suggest to the Minister that it is indeed going to have a negative impact and I think anything he says to the contrary can be challenged and will be challenged, not only by members on this side but also by members who are involved day to day in the office.

Without placing any value judgement as to the appropr iateness of the Manitoba Metis Federation versus the Metis Confederation of Manitoba, without trying to attempt to determine which is the more representative group, which is the group that should in fact receive funding and to what extent should tha t group receive fundin g from the provi ncial government, I would like to make a couple of general statements on this.

No. 1, from all the questioning that has been going on this evening, as well as that question which is going to follow, we have seen that the Manitoba Metis Federation has in fact been singled out in regard to having special reviews of their funding, in regard to having their funding withheld, while the other organ izat ions that are receiving funding and sitting on the task force are in fact receiving their full funding. So there is the undeniable fact that the Minister has singled out the Manitoba Metis Federation for some reason. Now we don't know what reason.

The Minister tells it's on the basis of complaints and yet when we press him as to the number of those complaints, he tells us it's in the tens and he tells us that some of it is coming from the executive of the Confeder acy and that makes ultimate sense that the Conf ederacy would complain from time to time. By the way, as an aside, in Lynn Lake this weekend I had the opportunity to meet with the President of the Conf ederacy and found him to be a very capable and able person.

I listened with great interest to his speech that he gave to the Friendship Centres Association and as a matter of fact, on certain points, found myself agreeing with him, just as I would have agreed on certain points with the Manitoba Metis Federation, and bel ieve that he is very sincere in his efforts and very honest in his efforts, as I do believe the President of the Manitoba Metis Federation is sincere and honest in his efforts.

I can see why there might be discontent from time to time within the organizations and I can understand the Minister even wanting to do a more thorough review of the funding of organizations but, for the life of me, I cannot understand why the Minister feels it is necessary to renege on a commitment that this government has made. It's a commitment that is right here in this Estimates Book before us. It's very plain; 131 ,800 was committed to the Manitoba Metis Federation for this fiscal year.

Why he would want to renege on that for the period during which that task force is sitting, when it is going to have a detrimental impact on the operations of the Manitoba Metis Federation and, by that, will have a detrimental impact on all Metis people in the province. Because the Minister isn't turning that money over to another organization to work with, the Minister is holding that money back.

That means staff are held back; that means expenses are held back; that means that activities can't be ongoing and that means that you are going to, in the long term, create problems within the Metis community by your very actions here. I would hope that you would want to avoid that. As a matter of fact, I am certain that you would want to avoid that.

I believe your decision to withhold the money has been ill-advised ; I believe it is ill­ considered; and I believe in the long run you will find that it will have far more impact than you perceive it as having now; and that will not be positive impact, that will be negative impact. That will be to the detriment of the Metis people; that will be to the detriment of their organization and it will take a very long time to correct the injustice which the Minister is perpetrating at this moment.

I would only hope that he would, on the strength of our argument somewhat and on the strength of the argument which does not have to be voiced, which is a natural argument, which is the logi cal, that he would immediately reconsider his decision to hold back that money.

And even if he only does it to the extent that he says, okay, we will provide them with interim money until September, at which point we're going to make a decision, or we will provide them with interim money until at which point we do make a decision , whether it be October, September or August or next year, that the Metis people in the long run are not the innocent victims of what seems to be a somewhat unreasonable squabble and what seems to be a some what ill- advised and ill­ considered action on the part of the government. So I would hope the Minister would take that advice into consideration.

I know that if he does do great harm to the Metis community he will in fact also be doing great harm to the Metis Conf ederacy as well as the MM F. So he will, in the long run, be creating situations which I'm certain he does not want to create. I know that my leader will be far more persuasive in his arguments than I am, having been in this venue longer than I have been and being more accomplished at it and coming in from the advantage point of being a lawyer, who knows how to ask questions and knows how to receive and solicit the proper answers.

So I would leave it to him to follow up on what I consider to be some very rudimentary base work in regard to this and I would hope, at the end of that and the presentation by the Member for Rupertsland and the presentations that I know the Minister is going to get from outside of these rooms, that he will in fact reconsider his decision and seek the compromise solution which is for the interim, to live up to a commitment which his government had made, and then when the report comes in they can make a final decision as to how to allocate that money. MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would just like to respond briefly with respect to some of the comments from the Member for Churchill with respect to withholding funds from the other organizations that will participate in this advisory study. Two of the five organizations get no provincial funding whatsoever from the province. I'd like to indicate, too, that the Conf ederacy has received recog nition by the Native Council of Canada at their 4254

Monday, 2 June, 1980 last annual meeting so that there has been some dissatis faction, not only from the people that I've talked to but from other sources, apparently, with respect to the MMF . MR. COWAN: Just to answer those two comments from the Minister. No. 1 is, I'd ask him my question very explicitly and for good reason was, has the Conf ederacy been reco gni zed as a Manitoba organization by any Manitobans as an organ ization?

I'm fully aware that it was recognized by the Federal Council and I also know the history that goes along with that and the Ma nitoba Metis Federa tion's participation and withdrawal from that. So it's not as simplistic as the Minister would have us belie ve by his brief statement. The other point, what I did ask him was, did the organizations that have received funding under this particular

section been stripped of their funding until that task force reports. And I think he has to agree that although there are two organizations that do not receive funding the others that do have not in fact been singled out, as has the Ma nitoba Metis Federation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister advise when he received these alleged ten­ some complaints involving the MMF ? MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I've had ongoing discussions with a number of people dating back, I guess, about the beginning of the new year, January. MR.

PAWLEY: So the complaints that the Minister received were on or about the first week in January of 1980; is that correct? MR. GOURLAY: Yes. It possibly would start soon after I became involved in the portfolio, which would be the first part of December of 19 79. MR. PAWLEY: The first part of December is when you . . . ? So that the Mnister received complaints in December, as early as December, 19 79, is th at correct? MR. GOURLAY: I can't be specific on the actual date, but thereabouts. MR. PAWLEY: Can the Minister advise when a decision was taken, on his part, to hold back funding from the MMF ? MR.

GOURLAY: Are you ask ing me a specific indicate what took place between the early part of January and the near end of April to cause him to arrive at a determination to hold back funding to the MMF ? MR. GOURLAY: You must remember that I did not take resp onsibili ty for this area until April 1 st, although I had ongoing discussions with some Metis people regarding the corps funding, but it was admin istered under a different department until March 31, of 1980. MR.

PAWLEY: But you were a Minister of the Crown during the period December and early Ja nuary in which you received these alleged complaints involving MMF ; you were present during the Treasury Board decisions when decision was made to include within the printed estimates a sum of money for the Manitoba Metis Federation, is that correct? MR. GOURLAY: That's right. MR. PAWLEY: That is correct. Now, the Minister indicates that around the end of April a decision was undertaken on his part to hold back funding from the MMF.

Did the Minister undertake to find out from the MMF the extent of impact that such a holdback would cause upon the MMF ? MR. GOURLAY: I had discussions with members of the executive from th e MMF on two or th ree occasions. Naturally they were interested in knowing what the decision would be. They did not indicate that there would be any serious difficulties. They ind icated that th ey would be receiving federal funding and I'm not sure whether they indicated they received funding from other sources or not. MR. PAWLEY: When was the decision made by the Minister to hold back funding from the MMF ?

When was that decision related on to the MMF itself? MR. GOURLAY: Well, of course I would expect you to appreciate the fact that in order to make such a gr ant of corps funding tha t I req uire Cabi net approval for this. MR. PAWLEY: But my question really relates to when was the decision related to the Manitoba Metis Federation that the corps funding would not be provided? MR. GOURLAY: I think I indicated that it was somewhere around the end of April but I can't be sure of the exact date. date? MR. PAWLEY: The corps funding for the previous year would terminate as of the 1st of April? MR.

PAWLEY: Yes, on or about. MR. GOURLAY: I can't be sure of the . . . I would say it would be perhaps the latter part of April, or thereabouts. MR. PAWLEY: So the Minister is indicating that complaints first flowed into him in December or early January; a decision was made on his part toward the end of April to hold back funding. Can the Minister MR. GOURLAY: The 31s t of March. MR.

PAWLEY: I ask the Minister whether, as a reasonable individual, that he feels that a notice of zero days, or in fact after April the 1st without any notice whatsoever, is a reasonable notice period to provide to an organization such as this that their funding will not be provided in the traditional manner as it has been for a number of years. How many 4255

Monday, 2 June, 1980 years has the Manitoba Metis Federation received corps funding from the province of Manitoba? MR. GOURLAY: I think it dates back to the year 1972. MR. PAWLEY: The Minister is indicating that the corps funding was discontinued this year without any advance notice gi ven to the MM F, wi thout any advance notice being given to the MMF ahead of the period to which that corps funding would have been applied for the year in question? MR. GOURLAY: In dis cussions I had with the executive of the MMF , there was good reason to believe from the discussions that corps funding was not an automatic thing.

MR. PAWLEY: When did those discussions take place? MR. GOURLAY: Dating back, again I can't be specific to the exact date when I had my first meeting with the Executive of the MMF but I would say that it was probably in the month of February. MR. PAWLEY: Is the Minister now indicating that he gave reasonable indication of notice to the MMF some time in February of 1980 that their funding would not be provided for in this oncoming year; that the MMF had reason to believe from you that you would be cutting off their funding for this year, in February of this year? MR.

GOURLAY: No, all I indicated was that the corps funding moneys was not an automatic thing that was going to happen, but they were fully aware that there may be some delay or discontinuing of corps funding. MR. PAWLEY: But when did the -M inister actually give them notice, outside of 'mights' and 'possiblys', when did the Minister actually give notice to the MMF that the funding would not be provided? MR. GOURLAY: I'm just trying to recall the exact day ... MR. PAWLEY: Isn't it true that it was some time in the month of April? MR.

GOURLAY: I'm not sure whether it was April or the first part of May but it was, you know, a few weeks back. MR. PAWLEY: At that particular time, did the Minister make any enquiries from the MMF as to the impact that this termination of funding would impose upon the organization? MR. GOURLAY: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, could I ask the Leader of the Opposition to repeat that question. MR.

PAWLEY: At this time, in other words, around the end of April, 1s t May, the Minister indicated that the funding would not be forthcom ing, did the Minister at that time meet with the representatives of MMF and advise himself as to the impact that such termination of financing would impose upon their organ ization? MR. GOURLAY: No. MR.

PAWLEY: I was interested in a comment made by the Minister earlier when being questioned and I want to raise this further with the Minister, words to the effect that may or may not affect the central office, then proceeding on to say chances are slight that will affect the central office. Does the Minister concur with me that, in fact, that he has undertaken no enquiries to ensure with a certainty, as to the impact of the cutting of the corps funding might have on the MMF?

Again I repeat the Minister's words have been may or may not affect, then further on chances are slight, admission on the Minister's part that he has not consulted directly with the MMF at the time of the termination of the funds. I suggest to the Minister, and I await his comment, that in fact there was no notice, no consultation, no checking as to the impact of the termination of the funds in question, and to this day, the Minister isn't really sure, the extent to which his actions may have hurt that organization which has been the traditional recipient of corps funding from the provincial government.

The Minister can not, I gather, at this point, tell us with a certainty that the termination of funding will not have an impact upon the MMF . MR. GOURLAY: Well, I would suspect that no doubt the cutting back of funding to the organization would have some affect, again I refer back to the comments that I see as one of the problems that the government has never placed any strings on the corps funding money and it's very difficult to assess just how much difficulty it may create on the MM F, the fact that the corps funding migh t be, or is currently withdrawn.

There is some indication on the way the money has been spent, a considerable amount of money was spent on travel and meetings, and I would susp ect that perhaps our percentage of the corps funding may not necessarily affect the current operation. Over the long haul it no doubt will have some implications but there is no indication at this time, you know, just how long or whether there might be a whole different approach to corps funding to the Metis people. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, what I think concerns member on this side and we would simply ask that the Minister re-exam ine, in light of the facts, would it not have been reasonable, I think the Minister would want to have been reaso nable, to have provided some reasonable notice to the MMF so that they could undertake those adjustments that they might have to undertake for a period of months, to avoid a complication insofar as their internal arrangements.

Would it not have been reasonable, on the part of the Minister, if his intentions were to terminate the funding and it appears that there was some thought along th ose lines as early as December, early January, to have given reasonable notice so that appropr iate adjustments could have been undertaken, on the part of the MMF , so that their operations would not be affected? The Minis ter's admitted that he cannot be certain, or his words implied to us this evening, that he cannot be certain 4256

Monday, 2 June, 1980 as to the impact of the holding back of these funds upon the organization in question. He's used words such as may or may not, chances are slight, doesn't suspect but unable to speak with any certainty to us this evening. Surely the Minister, as a reasonable individual, undertaking what would be expected as the responsibility of a Minister of the Crown, would surely have wanted to have provided reasonable notice.

Can the Minister indicate to us why he would not have provided that type of reasonable notice to the MMF , there has apparently been no irregularities of an untoward nature, the organization is recogn ized by the Secretary of State, we know there has been some difficulties within Metis people as to respective organizations, which they'll have to sort out, it's not up to govern