PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT House of Assembly For the period: Monday, March 21, 1977

March 21, 1977 Tape No. 1110 NM- 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! STATR~NTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR.. \-1 • CARTER : Mr. Speaker, I want to table the cony of a telegram which I have today forwarded to the hon. Romeo LeBlanc concerning certain questions and concerns that ~vere raised and expressed at the recent fisheries conference that concluded in St. -John's on Thursday, ~arch 17th.

In my telegram to the minister I informed him of the grave concern that has been expressed to me by the vast majority of inshore fishermen who attended the fifteen regional meetings in our Provincial-Conference on Fisheries, which concluded on Thursday, ·March 17th. These fishermen, Sir, are concerned as to the adequacy of the conservation measures which have been put into effect with particular reference to Northern cod in the ICNAF area 2J and 3KL.

In my telegram to the minister I informed him that I expressed to the delegates the fact that the total allowable catch has been reduced from 3no,ooo metric tons in 1976, to 160,000 metric tons in 1977. Nevertheless many questions were raised by inshore fishermen about the state of the resource and the management decisionsrequired in order to ensure that the resource will recover as quicly --- -- . - - - - as is . practically feasible.

I went on to say, Sir, that specifically they asked whether the total allowa~le catches for 1977 are sufficiently low to allow adequate regeneration of the resource and revitalization of the inshore fishery on the Northeast Coast of Newfoundland. I pointed out to the minister, Sir, that these questions can only be answered by his department since it is the federal government which is responsible for the management of the resource.

furch 21, 1977 Tape .Jo .1110 NM - 2 MR. W. CARTER: I told the minister that I share the view of our fishermen that there trust be full disclosure of information relating to managem.ent of the resource,including the basic management principles and biological information about the effects of offshore fishing effort upon shoreward migration of fish. Also it is of fundamental importance that we who are most vitally affected by these decisions be aware of any commitments which Canada has given to other countries concerning management of -the resource and foreign access to Canadian fish stocks.

I pointed out to him that it is essential that we be informed as to the flexibility and freedom which Canada has in setting the TAC's for the restrictions imposed upon Canada by the bilateral fisheries agreements. It is my understanding that the total-allowable catches for 1978 will soon be set by Canada for all stocks within the 200 mile zone.

Harch 21,1977 Tape 1111 AH-1 ~R. CARTER: I said that in view of the importance of these decisions I ' a~ hereby requesting that the biolo gical and economic information used in reaching such decisions be made available to my department and to re~ ~ esentatives of our fisherman and our fishing industry. The total allo~.r able catches must be set at levels which will allo-.:v a viable and vibrantly healthly inshore fishery. I reneat, Nr. Speaker, the total allmvable catches must be set at levels which will allow a viable and vibrantly healthly inshore fishery.

I went on to say that if restoration of a healthly inshore fishery requires that the total allowable catch be cut to such a level as to eliminate foreign fishing effort for cod in Northern Newfoundland waters,then I and the government I represent are prepared to support such action. I told the minister, Mr. Speaker, in my telegram that this government is committed to the restoration of the inshore fishery and we want to make it abundantly clear that the revitalization of the inshore fishery is our principal concern and our highest priority in fishery management.

The declaration of a Canadian 200 mile management zone i~- itself is of little ~enefit if the management principles are not fundamentally changed. The former management regimen was recognized to be inadequate and indeed _ .-y;:eprehe~sible. The principle of maximum sustained yield is a principle of biological management which is insensitive to the economic and social needs of our people.

It is my sincere hope that our new Canadian management system will be sensitive to the needs of our Canadian fishermen whether they be inshore fishermen on the Northeast Coast or trawler fishermen sailing out of communities on the South and . . . East coasts of our Province. And I am still quoting from the telegram to the minister, Mr. Speaker. 11 I am hereby requesting that there be consultation Nith the government of this Province in the formulation of suitable management principles and in the establishment of total allowable

March ,n ,1977 Tape 1111 AH-2 ~ffi.. CARTER: catch levels based upon these principles. I would like to conclude by again repeating the concern of fishermen in this Province that the total allowable catch for Northern cod may be to~ hig9 and as a consequence that forei~ fishing effort may still be excessive.

Unless there is hard scientific evidence to support the conclusion that the present total allmv-able catch \vill allow the resource to rebuild sufficiently to allow the revitalized inshore fishery, we 't·7ould favour a further drop in total fishing effort. 11 The government of New-foundland, Sir, is prenared - again I am quoting the telegram to the minister - the government of Newfoundland is prepared to support the elimination . if necessary of foreign fishing effort • In the absence of definitive scientific evidence concerning the effects of-alternative total allmv-able catch levels upon our inshore fishery creates a risk for our inshore fishery J _we- would prefer that this risk be minimized by opting for a lean offshore effort.

If there is to be any error we would prefer that the management decision err on the conservative rather than the liberal end of the TAC spectrum. "I want to repeat that these are issues of great importance and grave concern for our Province. therefore I would \velcome an opportunity to discuss these matters personally "lith you at an early date .1 1 Signed, ~.Jalter Carter, r.anister of Fisheries. SOME HON ~IEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: Han. Leader of the Opposition. l1R. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, over the years I have been in the Fouse I have heard my share of ministerial statements that take a lot of ~v-ords to say nothing but the one which 'tve have just heard, Sir, sets new records. Nobody could find fault with the minister's statement of concern. Of course nobody could. ~1r. Speaker, I

Narc'!'l 21,1977 Tape 1111 AH- 3 ~ . ROBERTS: listened as best I could to t he minister 's statement •...rhich seemed to go on and on and on . ~d there is so little of substance in it, Sir, that to try to comment upon i t in detail is like trying to grapple with the minister's policy and other points;and that is the same as trying to put your hand into a bowl of jelly . Hr . Speaker.

March 21, 1977, Tape 1112, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: to make two specific points with reference to this; first of all and most importantly, Sir, it is obvious that the future of the inshore fishery on the North­ east coast and the coast of Labrador- Labrador, of course,was conspicuous by its absence from the minister's thought-but that inshore fishery, Sir, and its future must be of prime concern to this House and to the government which answers to this House. The total amount of fish that can be taken from those stocks is obviously the key question in the management of that stock. .

The minister used a great number of words but he said no more than that. It is right and proper that the government be concerned about it, Sir, but I find it passing strange that it is only now that the minister sees fit to get in touch withM. LeBlanc. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think the han. the Leader of the Opposition is aware that the rules will only permit him now to make general comments and not to debate the matter in the Ministerial Statement. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Sir. I am trying very much to avoid debating it. I would like nothing better and perhaps we will have another sub-amendment on this.

But, Mr. Speaker, the point remains that I think the minister has come late to the party. I find it also, Sir, to be a very great change in the government's policy, because the principles which he has enunciated, the principles which we on this side have enunciated before this, Sir, obviously require the complete abandonment of any further thought of joint ventures which threaten this very stock 1 and furthermore, Sir, obviously explode and expose the minister's great scheme to buy or to rent or to somehow acquire twelve great trawlers from overseas to exploit this very same stock.

The minister's statement, Sir, does not square in any way with the actions that he and his colleagues have taken. Mr. Speaker, I am not allowed to debate it,as Your

March 21, 1977, Tape 1112, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: Honour has reminded me~and so I shall not. I would like nothing better and I do hope fervently, Sir, that when we get the estimates in this House under this infamous seventy-five hour , ~ule,- we are allowed this year, if we can debate nothing else, to debate the fishery policy. The minister says he is proud of it. I do not doubt he is proud of it, Sir, but I think the House should have the opportunity to examine the minister, let 'him state his views and let, Sir, other members state their views.

The minister's statement is a penetrating insight into the obvious, Sir. There is nothing new in it. There is a great deal we would welcome because it is what the minister should have been saying all along, a concern for the fishery of the Northeast coast and of Labrador. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Recu: , hear ! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, my question is for my sometimes friend,the Minister of Transportation and Communications, and it relates to the question of a road across Labrador.

Now by way of, I hope and trust, permissible explanation,the minister I am sure is aware of the fact that many people in Western Labrador believe that they can have access across Labrador this year by means of putting a car or a truck on a train at Wabush, bringing it down to Ross Bay Junction and taking it North on the railway to Esker and then getting off the railway at Esker and then coming across to Churchill on what is quite a good road, a road built originally by CFLCo. in connection with the project,and then going from Churhcill down to Goose, coming East Goose Bay on the so-called Freedom Road,and then connecting with the ferry service, the Carson, to St.

Anthony, Lewisporte and St. John's. My question, Sir, against that background is, is the minister prepared,or are the government prepared, the minister speaking for them, of course, to take the steps that are

March 21~ 1977, Tape 1112, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: necessary to enable the road between Churchill and Happy Valley, which is there - it is drivable but it is not in very good condition - is the minister prepared to take the steps necessary to ensure that that road is made drivable this Summer and that the people living in Western Labrador are thus able to get access by car and trucks to the rest of the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR.. MORGAL~ : Mr.

Speaker, a short while ago I received representations from people in Labrador West and in particular .. f'l'!'CJ& my colleague in the House of Assembly,. the hon. gentleman from Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) who. brought this to my attention, who speaks on behalf of Labrador on many occasions irrespective of which district or which riding. At that time the request was . -

March 21, 1977 Tape 1113 PK - 1 Mr. Morgan: along the lines of looking at the possibility of establishing a car ferry service on the Quebec North Shore Labrador Railway, as the hon. Leader of the Oppostion mentioned, ~nd then from their to travel by convoy to Goose from Churchill Falls over that road.

And the reason I mention 'convoy' is because I travelled that road last year in 1976, shortly after becoming minister, I travelled to Churchill Falls over that road, I had to travel in a four-wheel drive jeep, but the road is a very danger ous hazardous road because i~ was never built to a standard for the purpose of transporting passengers and goods, in particular, private passenger cars. The suggestion put forward to me by t~e hon. ~entleman my hon. colleague from Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) is being _ looked into.

I have assured the residents of Labrador who made representations to me that I will,as soon as the House of Assembly closes or possibly during the Easter recess, travel to Labrador and take a look at the situation and discuss the matter with the railway concerned. But first of all it has to be determinded whether or not we can keep that road open.

So as soon as weather conditions allow me to I will be travelling over that road from Goose Bay1 as far as we can go over the road, going West ; to determine the possibility of keeping it open or havingaur maintenance ere~~ keep it open this Summer, and for convoys to travel into Goose to connect with the ferry service coming down to Newfoundland~now the William Carson,which was put into service last year. But there are many questions remaining unanswered about -- this possible transportation system serving the Western part o.( Labrador.

And hopefully over the next coming months we can answer these questions and make a decision which will be to the benefit of people living in Labrador,hopefully. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister, and I very much appreciate the fact that he will look into it. I think, judging

March 21, 1977 Tape 1113 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: from what he is saying it is fair to say that some thought has been given to it, but no actual field work or groundwork or road work r has been done. Could the minister tell us whether he has been in touch with the QNS&L, the railway system running from Sept Isles to Schefferville through our Province~ And if so, if he has been in touch with themlwhat response they made' Are they willing to do what has to be done to enable cars to be moved from Wabush to Ross Bay Junction and then North to Esker? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon• Minister of.Transportation and Communications. MR.

MORGAN: No, Mr. Speaker, we have made no official contact, I guess I will use the term~ with regards to establishing a means of tranport and the reason for that is because we wan~ tirst of a111 to determine whether or not that toad can be used this coming Summer, and then if the decision is that we can use the road 1 or the people in Labrador West, __ only then will we make representation to the railway concerned. Because if it is done prior to that we are putting the cart before the horse sort of thing. So first of all I have to determine whether or not. that road can be used this coming Summer. MR.

ROBERTS: A further supplementary. MR.. SPEAKER: A further supplementary. MR.. ROBERTS : Mr.

Speaker, I could, I could say if we are de~ating it, you know, it would not hurt to get in touch with the railway now, no harm done to make a phone call or to send a letter, but be that as it may, ~~,- the minister tell us- and Your Honour. and the House will appreciate this, there is a lot of public interest both on the Island and throughout Labrador on it - when he might be in a position to announce some decision. ~b_viously the minister has to go to Labrador to make a visit, to have a look, and that is fair game, but people are planning, you know, and in their planning would want to take into account the possibility or the likelihood, if it could be that, of being able to go across Labrador by land arid then down to the Island by sea.

And that is a very great concept, you know, to be 3l79

March 21 ,1977 Tape 1113 PK - 3 Mr. Roberts: able to drive across Labrador by road and then to come back to the Island by sea. But could the minister tell us when we might expect to get some decision? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, as soon as the department has totally assessed the situation, and determined the feasibility of possibility of keeping that road open then the decision will be made to proceed further ~y means of contacting the carrier concerned) in this case the Quebec North Shore Labrador Railway 7 and hopefully put the thing into effect. But as I mentioned earlier it has to be determined first of all whether that road can be used. Last year the road was officially closed by the Department of Transportation and Communications.

They took no responsibility for the road, based on the fact that it is a hazardous, dangerous road , and there are no service stations or public conveniences at all along that route. But· despite that I understand a number of residents,in their private vehicles~did travel over the road and came down to Goose Bay and got on the ferry there and came to Newfoundland, the Island part of our Province. But

March 21, 1977 Tape no. 111 If Page 1 - MS Hr. Morgan. until that situation is totally assessed by the engineering division of the department -and also my own travels to the area which I have assured oy colleague, the hon. gentleman for Naskaupi (~x. Goudie), I will do this Spring- until then we plan to take no further action until we can determine whether or not the road can be used. MR. ROBERTS: A final suppla~entary. MR.. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, can the minister tell us what degree of priority he puts on this road question, and where will it rank in his consideration of where - I imagine funds are going to he less available to go evervwhere this year if I am any judge of the situation and I think I am - can t}·e minister tell us where this r~nks in the priorities? Will it be at the top of the list, the bottom, somewhere in between? MR.. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR.. MORG~\.1.'1 : Mr. Speaker, transportation in Labrador is always ofhigh priority in the Department of Transportation.

Any means and methods to improve transportation in Labrador naturally is of h1gh priority as long as I am minister, and I am sure all my colleagues will agree with me.

But in this case,because of the substantial investment required to put that road - I am referring to from Goose Bay over to Churchill Falls - in a condition considered to be acceptable for use of private vehicles, that it is obvious to all concerned that it will require federal government assistance, and I cannot at this time comment any further on any forthcoming or possible forthcoming or potential forthcoming assistance from Ottawa on that matter. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker - MR.. SPEAKER: The horl. member. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I know I said it was a final supplementary. The minister has raised a new point.

May I trespass on Your Honour's generosity.

l:arch 21, 1977 Tape no. 1114 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the han. Leader of the Opposition for a final, final. MR. ROBERTS: All right, a final, final one. The minister mentioned federal assistance, a new thought in his public statements on this. Can he tell us when application was made to Ottawa for assistance with this road? MR.. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. MORGAN: Sir, application for assistance to improve transportation systems in Labrador are almost on a continuing basis. .But with regards to the - -MR. · SLJ\fMONS: The farmer hauls , you knmv. MR.

MORGAN: If the hon. gentleman for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. J. Winsor) has something to mumble about let him stand in his place and do it. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker'· on a small point of order befitting the minister, he may have a quarrel with my friend from Burgee- Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons), but my friend from Fortune- Hermitage (Mr. J. Winsor), Sir, to my knowledge has not - I have no doubt he has good cause to be involved in discussions with the gentleman from Bonavista South, but, Sir, let the gentleman from Bonavista South refer to my colleagues by their correct designation.

The gentleman from Burgee- Bay d'Espoir certainly has some strong views on the minister's performance and so do most of us, and so do the people in Bunyan's Cove and elsewhere throughout the Province, MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, as I earlier indicated if an hon. member of the House of Assembly on the Opposition side asks a question of a minister on this side of the Chamber., if he is genuinely interested in obtaining information he should refrain from making comments while the question is being answered. Now, Mr. Speaker, getting back to the answer - MR.. ROBERTS : I made no comment. 3082

March 21, 1977 Tape no. 1114 Page 3- mw MR. MORGAN: No, one of your colleagues did. }fR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege. MR. SH1MONS: I mean I can take so much of the minister's searing attack on me, this searing condemnation of my own self here. How shameful! All I have done, Mr. Speaker, and I will continue to do, is take exception, strong exception, Mr. Speaker, to any indications that applications have been gone, when they have not gone to Ottawa, when the minister misleads the House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order,please!

There is no point of privilege before the Chair. The hon. minister is now recognized to answer the question. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I was on the verge of answering the question before being so rudely interrupted. Mr.

Speaker, this admin~stration made representation and application, official application to the federal level of government, our national government in Ottawa, for assistance on improving, as I mentioned earlier, all transportation modes in Labrador, including airstrips, and also with particular emphasis - three years ago a particular application was made specifying required assistance for the necessary upgrading and reconstruction of the Trans-Labrador Highway. That application was made and filed by this government three years ago. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to . the Minister of Finance, the President of Treasury Board. In view of the fact that there are so many difficulties arising now in connection with pension plans, first the teachers, and now the Waterford Hospital strikers, will the minister tell the House why the government refuses - or let us put it 3083

~·arch 21, 1977 Tape 1115 B-1 ur .. NEA?Y: in a positive Hay- will the minister tell the Reuse if the government is going to fund the pensions of its employees and place them under a trusteeship Hith contributions and benefits set down on sound, actuarial principles? H~. . SPE.AKEP: ~-'!R. DOODY : The hon. ~rinister of Finance. It is a matter that governf'\ent has under consideration Your Honour, and, you kno~r, the government policy in that area ~- rill be announced when it is ready. ~"R. SPE . .A..KER: The hon. !'1ember for Hindsor-Buchans follmved by the hon. gentleman for Burp,eo-Bay d'Espoir. ?··'!?, .

FLIGHT: Fr. Speaker, thjs auestion is for the Y.inister of Ic· ~ines and Energy. 1·Jould the minister advise the House as to >vhat percentage of the petroleum proclucts and Bunker C being purchased by the governi!'.ent and its agents is being refined or produced by the Golden Eagle Refinery at Holyrood? .JIP.. SPEAKER: The hon. ¥inister of }fines and Energy . ~.P. . PECKFOPD: ~r. Speaker, I have not got the answer to that question at my fingertips so I will take it as notice. !·'R. FLIGRT: A supplementary, ~"'r. Speaker. ~. SPEP~~: A supplementary. MR.

FI.IGHT: ·Hould the minister also endeavour to advise the House when he answers the original three questions what was the dollar value of the petroleum products purchased from Golden Eagle by government for the fiscal year ended Varch 31, 1976? YR. SPEAKEP: }11?_. PECKFO"PD: ~~ . SPEfl..KEP : The hon. ~·in is ter of ~ ines and Energy. No problem, }fr. Speaker. The hon. member for Eagle River. ~·'P .• STP.ACHAN: A auestion for the Jfinister of !·"ines and Energy. Could the minister confirm \vhether it is too late for Eastcan to conduct a major drilling programme off Labrador this Summer and Fall? ~IT'..

SPEAY..EP,: 'T'he hon. 'Minister of Yines and Energy. ~-fP. . PECKFORD : I a!'l not a petroleum geologist, Yr. Speaker, so therefore I cannot answer that question. :M:R .• STPACHAN: Mr. Spe<!ker, a suppleMentary. 3084

~- rarc!J. 21, 1977 Tape 1115 IB-2 ~'P-. SPEJ.KEP..: A supplementary. ~~-. STP.ACEJ\.N: Could the minister acknowledge tvhether officials from his department are in Calgary or ~-Jere in Calgary or will be in Calgary to atteii"_pt to negotiate a last minute compromise Hith Eastcan? }-f!'_. SPEAKF.P: The hon. ~ ·~inister of 1!ines and Energy. }"'P • PECKFOPD: \vere, yes. Now, no. Future, I do not know. }fP_. STPACK<\...'1: A supplementary, ~~r. Speaker. }qt, SPEAKEP_: A supplementary. ~R.

STP..ACHAN: Could the minister tell us ~·!hether it is a reasonable probability - and I said a reasonable probability - that necessary agreements will be reached which will alloT,! a reduced drilling programme this Su!!'lller? !'"1'_. SPEA.1ZER: The hon. ~inister of Yines and Energy. }~. PECKFOR.D: '!'o speculative, }rr. Speaker. I really cannot answer it. 1-'P .• SPEA...T{E!'_: The hon. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. ~-- SIMMONS: Just imagine and he is the brightest thing they have over there. I·"'r. Speaker, a question for the Yinister of Finance.

Could he indicate if a definite date has been indicated now or decided for the budget, when the budget would be brought down in the llouse7 ~~-· SPEAKE'P: The hon. ~inister of Finance. }KR. DOODY: No a definite date has not been established and has not been jndicated at this time, Your Honour. Could he - ~. SPEAKER: A supplementary? MR. SI~,..ONS: Yes a supplementary, ~r. Speaker. Could he indicate ~v-hether it will or will not be, say, ~,,ithin the next Heek and a half or so? ~-'1'- . SPE.A..KEP: The hon. ~-~'inister of Finance. 1-'f!l.

DOODY: I cannot indicate that it will or will not be within the next week and a half or so. Shame! Shame! Planning, the government are planning. yP_. SPE..t;.KER: The hon. member for Terra Nova followed by the han. member for LaPoile and the han. member for Carbonear. YP._. LrSH: 1-'r. Speaker, a question for the Y:inister of Finance. I wonder

Yarch 21, 1977 Tape 1115 IB-3 _l'R. L FSF.: if the minister is in a position to inform the House as to whether there are any ne~T developments in respect to the Faterford situation? ~-'? • DOODY: No, Your Honour, ~!e have not heard anything further from -the union since our last proposal was put to the unit. ~·!e certainly ~,Tould welcoT!'!e such an overture but since government has made the last t1m moves tore feel it is appropriate for the union to come back ~>Tith a counter proposal. IJe are very anxious to get the thing settled, Your Honour. l-1:R. SPEAKER: The hen. member for LaPoile. }"!' .• 1TEARY: ~-rr.

Speaker, my question is for the ~-rinister of Fisheries. Would the ~inister of Fisheries inform the House if the government have been asked for any assistance in connection with replacing the $1 million fish piant that was destroyed by fire at Burnt Island~ in thP electoral district of LaPoile? !-"R. SPE .. AKE'R: The hon. Yinister of Fisheries. 1-'R. \J. CARTER: Hr. Speaker, 1·7e have been in touch t-rith ~-~r. Sric King of the, I think it is called Kings Fisheries of Burnt Islands 1 with respect to the fire and we have offered him whatever assistance we can render.

Indeed no later than twelve o'clock this morning, noon, we talked to Yr. King and suggested to him that he get his proposal together and if he needed any help from the department by way of advice or technie~l assistance that we would be very happy to offer that assistance. In - the meantime I understand that ~r. King will be applying to DPIE for the necessary assistance to enable him to rebuild the plant. 3086

March 21, 1977 Tape No. 1116 NM- 1 ~m.. NEARY: This is a supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the minister care to tell the House v7hat the disposition of the three sixty-five foot draggers, The Sand Launce, The Barracudina and The Blue Hake, what the disposition of these draggers are nm-1 that we are landing fish at Burnt Islands and in other communities where you have fish plants on the Southwest Coast, MR. SPEAKER: The han. ~inister of Fisheries. MR. H. CARTER: Yes, t~ro of the boats, ~r, Speaker - the disposition of the boats has been under negotiation with T. J.

Hardy Limited of Port aux Basques and I understand· that negotiations are just about completed . for the leasing of the boats for at least a one year period with an option to purchase, and that the third.boat will continue to fish in the area, land its catches in the plants in the area but that T.J. Hardy would probably be given the first, I do not know what the legal technical term is, but certainly first refusal on the purchase or leasing of that third boat. ~. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr.

Speaker, would the minister tell the Rouse if his department have any plans to convert longliners in the Burnt Islands area into draggers - I forget the term now the minister's officials use, to convert longliners into draggers so that their catch cauability can be increased- if so can the minister give us a fey7 details. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, I understand that there are plans to convert at least three longliners into a more diversified fishing area and that they will receive whatever assistance is available to them from the Provincial Loan· Board and I oresume whatever assistance is available under the federal government as well in that resuect. But conversions are taking place I am told with respect to three boats in the area. 3C8?

March 21, 1977 Tape No. 1116 Nlf - 2 MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The original questioner, a supplementary. MR. NEARY: Could the minister tell us now what is happening now· in- connection with the Isle aux Morts fish plant and the total operation of the fishery in that area, you know in relation to Burnt Island, Isle aux ~arts and so forth? Anything ne~-r, you know, in the way of -evolving that plant? }~. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. ~m. W. CARTER: Nothing except, Mr. Speaker, that we have the ownership changed hands.

Now it is being operated by Connor Brothers, probably the largest cannery in Eastern Canada. Heetings have been held between officials of that . . company and the J?rovincia] Department of Fisheries Y7ith a view to finding out exactly what their plans are, if in fact the plan to diversify or to expand their operation and we should be getting word back from them,I suppose,in the very near future as to exactly what they intend to do with that plant at Isle aux Harts. MR. ROBERTS: A further supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A further supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, ~.rith reference to the minister's statement in response to a question by the gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) about the sculpin class boats, I forget the names of the three of them, but the three special boat$, can the minister tell us what those boats cost the governmenti What are they now worth, if that is different from the cost 7 ~nd whether the lease payments made by the Hardy Firm in Port Aux Basques and the other leasee 1 if there is to be a second leasee for the third boat, whether those lease payments will be adequate to recover the costs of building those boats, the capital cost of th@m?

I assume in so asking that the lease will be on a bare boat basis but perhaps the minister could deal with that point as well, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Fisheries.

March 21, 1977 Tape No. 1116 ~!R. l>T • CARTER : I will have to take notice of the question with res?ect to the actual final cost of the three boats­ but certainly with respect to the amount of lease I think W.f - 3 the amount, in fact I am sure)it will be based on the amortization of the market value of the boats say over the remaining life span of ten years. MR. ROBERTS: MR. w. CARTER: ~. NEARY: MR. SPE.A.KER: Is the market value .different from the cost? There will be a slight difference in that, ves, A supplementary question, ~1r. Speaker. I will recognize one further supplementary. :MR.

NEARY: Would the minister indicate to the House, Sir - these boats were built on an experimental basis, I presume the eX!Jerimental stage is now over- would the minister indicate to the House whether or not the experiment was a success and if there will be more boats of the sculpin type, sixty-five foot draggers, as my hon. friend indicated, will there be any more built by the Department of Fisheries or by the government' MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the boats were built as part of an experiment.

There were certain flaws in the design of the boats but I am very happy to inform the House that they are now fishing on the Southwest corner of the Province. They are doing extremely well but I doubt very much if we will be building any more of that particular design. Certainly the boats were) 3C89

l-'..arch 21, 1977 Tape no. 1117 Page 1 - mw Mr. W. Carter. w~ believe to some extent, maybe over-designed. A lot of equipment was installed that maybe was a little too sophisticated for the type of operation. But certainly the boats are proving to be very, very successful, but we are not sure that we would want to get involved in the building of any more of that particular type, and with that kind of equipment on board. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. MR.. SMALLWOOD : Might I ask the hon.

Premier or perhaps the Government House Leader, preferably I think the Premier, if they can give us some assurance that in the order of business of the House the full attention will be given to the thought that the debate on the Address in Reply should be completed) unless there is some unreasonable delay on the part of members speaking,before too much more .business is proceeded with in the light of the fact that his colleague, the Minister of Finance, has a budget to bring down and possibly an interim Supply Bill, and possibly the estimates before he might be ready with the full budget?

With that business coming up heavy, massive business coming before the House can we have some reasonable assurance , - I do not ask for a guarantee - but the reasonable assurance that we will not have repetition of last year with the Address in Reply being debated four or five months after the speech of which it was an Address in Reply had been brought down? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER }fOORES: I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that that question would be more properly directed to the Opposition themselves.

The fact is that we have been six weeks open in this House of which five weeks have been taken by the Opposition wasting time debating nothing points on the Speech in Reply. And if the Speech in Reply is finished, Sir, it will entirely depend on them. We will be 3.('\ ~so

March 21, 1977 Tape no. 1117 Page 2 - mw Premier Moores. putting legislation before the House. We will be bringing down the budget. ~.Je will be giving them an opportunity to clue up that debate. But if they just want to keep winding and winding it down that is entirely in their hands. MR. SMALLWOOD· A supplementary . to the hen. Premier. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Hmv about Scdw•ner? MR. SMALLWOOD: I appreciate the humour of his reply but I know the last thing in the world that he has in his mind is any kind of squeeze play on the Opposition. Oppositions are, you know, - MR.

ROBERTS: Squeeze play~ on Scrivener. MR. SMALLWOOD: -going to speak, and they are going to make speeches. But there has been a fair amount of legislation brought down, dealt with by the House, one or two fairly serious matters, but a number not so serious where except for the serious ones the Address in Reply could have gone forward, could it not and be disposed of. Because the whole House 7 including the members on this side,are going to be so thoroughly fed up with the debate on the Address in Reply, if it drags on and on for months into the Summer . MR.

MURPHY: One hundred and eighty-seven sub-amendents - Leader of the Opposition. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well surely that depends, and there is no reason why there should not be, is there? I cannot debate that, Mr. Speaker, and I fully realize. But the Premier should be happy that he has got a certain amount of legislation done. He should be happy that they are ~etting ready for the estimates and interim supply and the budget.

In the meanwhile would it not be smart to get rid of the - well rid is not perhaps the word - but to get completion of the debate on the Address in Reply and not have it next June or July or some time? 30S:i

}farch 21, 1977 Tape no. 1117 Page 3 - mw MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, there is nothing we would rather than to finish the Address in Reply. The Leader of the Opposition says, "There is a squeeze on Scrivener." I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that is nothing compared to the squeeze on the Leader of the Opposition after the weekend. MR. ROBERTS: Ah, ha~ Did you see Friday's cartoon? PREMIER MOORES: I saw Friday's cartoon, Mr. Speaker, and I would suggest that it is much better to be in a fighting cartoon than being the subject of one for the next six months between now and October.

SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. membe~ for Carbonear. MR. R. MOORES: A question, Mr. Speaker, for the hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Would the minister be kind enough to inform the House if there is any truth to the rumours circulating in Carbonear that phase two of the Carbonear by-pass road will begin this Summer? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. ¥ORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I very seldom comment on rumours, and I do not intend to start today. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, a

March 21, 1977 Tape 1118 PK - 1 Mr. Nolan: ntt~~t:f.(ln for the Minister of Finance. MR. PECKFORD: Late_~tarting. MR. NOLAN: - and the President of the Treasury Board in reference to the Waterford Hospital strike. Has the government made any new offers at all to the union? Have they offered to bring them together? Or are they now leaving it in a position that it is the union's next move? What is the situation? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: That was the gist of the answer to the last question, Your Honour.

The Government of the Province I really should stop referring to it as a government, it is not a government it is really the Board of the Waterford technically, although problem in all practical purposes it is ,the -.taxpayers : money that is ·involved, so - that in . effect it is a government problem. The last two overtures, the last two offers have been made by government, the last two attempts have been made by government on behalf of the Board, and behalf of management to bring these people together.

We are hopeful that some overture will now be forthcoming from the union, some counter proposal that we can consider. ~ I said we are most anxious to sit down with the unit and hopefully get the strike finished with and get the thing resolved as quickly as we possibly can. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the minister tell the House if the Board at the Waterford Hospital are bringing in so-called volunteer workers from outside of St. John's and putting them up at expensive hotels in the city while they are in St. John's? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: My understanding is that there are some nursing staff and management staff from other hospitals'fr~ outside St. John's who are working at Waterford. Whether they a~e being put up at expensive hotels or cheap hotels I really do not know, Your Honour. I do not know if there are any inexpensive hotels any

March 21, 1977 Tape 1118 PK - 2 Mr. Doody: more. But I guess it is a matter of standard whatever the hon. member means by expensive. MR. NOLAN: MR. SPEAKER: Bay South. MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The hon. member from Conception Is the minister in a position, maybe not right at the moment, but could he bring before this House some indication of how much extra money in overtime, meals, board and lodging and so on it has cost the government since the strike began over and above what it would normally cost to operate the hospital? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR.

DOODY: I am not in a position 1 obviously, as ;pe hon. member has indicated to bring that number forward ., . Certainly. if it can done, it will be done., It has been done in the past and the full implications of the thing in terms of its cost, in the monetary sense, will be presented t~ the House at the appropriate time. MR. NEARY:­ MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member from LaPoile, one final supplementary. Mr.

Speaker, in connection with the so-called volunteer workers who are in from outside tfie ·city, ,would the minister indicate if any of these so-called volunters are being put up or housed at the Holiday Inn here in St. John's? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: In the first place, Your Honour, I am not sure about the term "volunteer" and I guess that is why the hon. member refers to them as so-called volunteers. I do understand tN~t thf;lr~ ar~ ~O!?!e management people from other hospitals working at the Waterford from outside of St. John's.

I can only repeat what I said before I have absolutely no idea in the world where they are living but I do hope that they are comfortable, because they are doing a fantastic job and they are - MR. NEARY: They are very comfortable, and they are costing a fortune. 3GS4

March 21, 1977 Tape 1118 PK - 3 Mr. Doody: - looking after the . pat~ents at the Waterford which is our prime responsibility. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member from Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, a.question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications or the Premier. Could the minister tell me whether this government or the Department of Transportation and Communications has made a formal application to the Minister of Transport in Ottawa, Otto Lang,for the upgrading of the Trans-Canada Highway?

And when I say 'formal application' I do not mean conference; ~ I do not mean press releases, a formal application from this Province to Ottawa? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: The answer, Mr. Speaker, is, yes, And Mr. Lang is here on other business on Monday and we will be carrying on even further, and if the bon. member from Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) would like the opportunity we could even get an introduction for him. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, ob! ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. HICKMAN: Order 4, Bill No. 14 second reading. MR. SPEAKER: Order , 4, the adjourned debate on Bill No. 14.

The hon. member from Kilbride. MR. R. WELLS: I believe, Mr. Speaker, I was in the process of beginning some remarks on this bill when we adjourned on Thursday. What I had said, and I have to think for a moment now to come back 3C95

~farch 21, 1977 Tape 111.9 IB-1 "~>T., HELLS: to where I left off. 1-!hat I had said I think about education up to that point, ~·r. Speaker, was that we must not fall into the trap of thinking that money is going to solve every problem of education and that money is the complete ans~ver. I ~,rould like to draw to Your Honour's attention ~ for example, that in .other countries this sort of experience has been realized.

I remember, for instance, an occasion in England wl'.en at one of the major universities a fe';or years ago a miner's conference was held at that university in the Summer, when the university was closed. And everybocl y Has soT!lewhat astonished and sorye'lilhat amused to read in the papers after the miners had spent two or three days in the university,in their own conference)that they could not believe the Spartan conditions that existed.

They were upset at their own executive for taking them there in the first place and objected strenousl~ even in the National Press ) at the kind of conditions that they ~,rere forced to endure when staying in the regular residences at the university. These are among the more famous universities in the world. So the point I am making, Pr. Speaker, is that it is too easy for us in Newfoundland to think that just because we spend money that we are going to have good education and good educational institutions. Now I was talking about the one room school last week. Obviously nobody wants to go back to that.

But let us not sell short the education that a lot of people obtained in Newfoundland before Confederation and before vast amounts of money were spent. We only, I think, ~·r. Speaker, have to look at various communities in Newfoundland which,because of the dedication of the people and the teachers who were involved in educatio~have produced more first-class educated Newfoundlanders than other communities ten times their size. I can think of one cot!'!!!!unity and that is Elliston. I clo not know - whose district would J\lliston be in? MR.

MURPHY: · Bonavista South. ~~~~~~------ YR. v7ELLS: Yes, in Bonavista South, the com~unity of Elliston. That community had a dedicated teacher there. I forget his name now, but he was there for probably twenty-five or thirty years teaching and there Here more, I suppose for a village of its size in Newfoundland, there are

!-farch 21, 1977 Tape 1119 I!l-2 ML> • 'HELLS : more people "tvith university degress have come out of Elliston than probably any other place. !hat, I think, can be traced solely to the influence of that man. I did not knoT,y him obviously. Ee ~vas a teacher in Elliston for a great many years. ~<l'ould his name have been Yr. }furphy? I am not sure. Sat-1E RON. MEMBERS : Oh. oh! }"R. WELLS : Yes. But a man who h~s left ~is imprint on ever so many young people. I think the hon. member for Twillingate (1'vrr.

Smallwood) ~vill agree that the number of people, even ~.;rhen I Has a student going . .. to university, the number of people from Elliston with university degrees and university education was astonishing ~v-hen you consider the size of the place. ~· !R. SY.ALL HOOD : 'I',..Tould the hon. gentle!!lan not agree that one of the most astonishing phenomena in New·foundland is the extent to which, in a number of places,the influence of one man,some one teacher- ~IF .• NOLA.~: Or "tvoman. }!P..

S¥.ALUJOOD: In Oderin the famous Lord ~orris taught with the result that a large number of absolutely outstanding men and women emerged from that little Island of Oderin. Bishop ~·eaden teaching down in Hhite Bay. Who was the famous teacher over in Brigus? And all around the Province there were absolutely distinguished men H}lo put the stamp of their own personality on the Whole com~nity for maybe the best part of 100 years afterwards. }m. WELLS: I certainly agree with the hon. member completely, ~r. Speaker.

And this 1 I think,has been shown- I was talking on a point which I think is an extremely interestj.ng one. I was talking recently to a lady from Grand Bank and she. told me that about forty years ago, in her o~m experience and knowle~ge in Grand Bank, there were about thirty persons wh!:! Here graduates of uni.verstty, particulary graduates of ~aunt Allison and in that cay.

So it shows,in my mind at any rate, it indicates that although money is important in education, money can take education so far b11t there is no substitute for dedicated teachers and for parents who are dedicated to educating their children and helping them.

!-~arch 21, 1977 Tape 1119 IB-3 "R. lJF.LLS: You know~ I am not decrying for a moment the expenditure of money on education in our schools. I happen to think some of our schools are overbuilt. I believe we have spent too much money on buildings. Not too many buildings, I ~-not saying that for a moment1 but what I am saying is that some Qf the buildings>! think,are overbuilt for the purpose that they are used for, and that money is part of it.

But the real impetus comes,! think,from dedication,from teachers who are ded~cat~d, from parent·s who ensure that their children take fully from whatever educational opportunities are possible~ This, I think, we have got to - we have got to get away in Newfoundland

Harch 21,1977 Tape 1120 AH-1 ~1R. HELLS: and from thinking that money is going to solve our problems in education or in economic development or any other sphere of _lifE'. Money creates as many problems for a country as it solves. It is people that count,and it is the will and desire of a neople to bring themselves forward,in educational ~vays and in other ways,that really counts. Now, let me say a r.vord if I may, Jv!r. Speaker, about ?v"emorial University.

There 3as been ever so much debate in this Province about Hernorial University, about its budget, about the handling of its finances - and I know that I am straying somewhat from the strict principle of the bill, but Your Honour has allmved a certain latitude in debate and for a fo-r-· moments I >vould like to take advantage of that. Now it has been argued and argued very forcefully that there should be greater financial controls on Nemorial University.

Perhaps there should,but if they take place- and I would support financial controls, there is no ouestion about that- but I do not think I would support a system where we in this House debated the budget of a particular department of Memorial University as we will debate the . budget of the Deparbment of Health or the Department of Education. I think that what 1:ve should do .. and the approach that we should take is to put a ceiling on the amounts that are spent at Memorial University and in running that university.

In other words,I do not think that if the university comes into the government and says, "~-!e want $45 million this year or 1:.;e want $50 or $55 million! 1 I do not think the government should just pass out the money. I think the government should decide how much money it wants to spend on higher education in Newfoundland at the university level, decide and say,"This is what we can afford in a given year, and this is where ~..,.e are going to draw the line." And let t~e university then control and manage its budget.

March /1,1977 Tape 1120 AH-2 HR • \·TELLS : Now if university ~eople are travelling all over the world first class, obviously I do not think that we as a Province can afford that. I do not know if they are or if they a are not. I hear in this House that so~etirnes they are. ~ow that is something that surely a word from the government to the Board of Regents or to the president of the university could surely correct. I think the government already has the pm.rer to send auditors, or its financial representatives,into the university to look at the books to see where the money is going.

And I think that po~ver should be exercised. In other words ,I think the university should be accountable directly to the government a~d through the government to this House. But I do not visua.lize this House going over all the books and saying now,you knmv, "Hho 's salary is that · $15,000 or $20,01J0,and where did he go when he made that trip?" That is not the kind of control I would envisage. But I would say to the government _-! mean,we cannot run away with public money on university education forever.

And there have got to be strict limits put on Memorial University.ftnd I think the government should draw the line and draw it toughly and say to the university, "You have got to watch ~ow many new schools you open~ a school of this or a school of that~ In other words, I happen to think myself, although I knmv we needed doctors in Newfoundland, and I think probably we still need them, but where we need them ~o1e are not going to get them, because you are not going to get doctors, for example, to go out into the smaller outports in Newfoundland.

And you might get the doctor, . but a young doctor graduated is usually married, you may get the doctor but you are not going to get his wife. And so the pressure on the man to stay in a large urban area or not a large,but a urban area the size of Gander, Grand Falls is very great.

March 21,1~77 Tape 1120 AH-3 MR. HELLS: And you are not going to get men just because we are turning them out at the Hedical School, you are not going to get them pouring up to Hing's Eight or the Coast of Labrador, they are just not going to do it, Mr. Sneaker. MR. SMALU•J'OOD: If the han. gertleman would permit? HR. WELLS: Yes .• HR. SMALUJOOD: F.e said something - the han. member said something about allowing the university to start this or that or the other school, School of Engineering, school of anything, School of Lm..r , School of 1~usic, School of Nursing and so on.

Would he not agree that the decision to start a school ought not to be exclusively the right of the ur-iversity, butthat the government, t..rho are the owners of the university and ~vho foot the bills for virtually all- not all~·of its expenditure ought to have tthe right to say to the university," He want you" if they do ~vant,"the university to start this or that school;" -that the initiative ought not to lie exclusively with the university.

There might well come times when t 11e government , as the owner of the whole university~ might wish to say, nLoo~~ .• we will finance, we would like you to start a school of this or a school of that~"

March 21, 1977 Tape No. 1121 NM- 1 ~fR. WELLS: I agree. I could not conceive of a situation wh~re if as a matter of public policy the government of a province said to the university, because there is only one here, you know, '~e feel that you should start a school of whatever it might be and ''~e are prepared to pay for it;'and I could not conceive of a university saying no. I think that would be an abdication of all responsibility. !-ffi.. S"-tALLWOOD: But they have not da'~e so, no-t butt in and tell them how to run it. MR. ~.JELLS : Yes, tha·t is the point I am getting at.

You know,if we were so good at univeristy administration that we know better than they, then that is what ~ve should be doing. But I think >'le should, and when I say we, the government, the House of Assembly has the - yes,the ar~itors , I suppose is the proper word,of the public policy in this Province. I think we should say which direction- not exclusively.

I mean,if we thought technical subjects, engineering or medicine or something like that should be most important, again I would think the univeristy would be abdicating its responsibility ,, if it said, All right,we will put it into engineering, we will put it all into medicine,and we will cut out the school of fine arts, or we will cut out that sort of thing.'' University education is a balanced thing,but the point I think here is that our univeristy is not like some of the world's great universities which are largely funded by private bequest~ and donations and foundations and contributions.

Our university I suppose - what? - I suppose ninety-eight oer ~P.n~ of the money funding Memorial University is oublic money, would you say, Mr. Sp~aker? MR. HOUSE: Not Quite that much. MR. WELLS: Not that much. Ninety-five? MR. HOUSE: Eighty something. MR. WELLS: Yes, it is well up there. And I suppose

Harch 21, 1977 Tape No. 1121 NM - 2 MR. WELLS: there are very few universities in the 1-lestern World that have · to have a greater chunk of public monies to keep them going. Now the universities of which I spoke, that have only a small proportion of their income from public monies,would tell any government where to go if the government as a string attached to a few million dollars came in and told them how to run their operation, they would tell them where to go fast.

I think for instance that if the British Government were to try that with Oxford or Cambridge, very quickiy the answer would come back, "Look, we have been running these institutions since 1200,and we intend to keeP on running them and if you do not like it you can lump it, ?-nd you can keep your money and we will manage." I think that is the answer you ,will get from these universities, although goodness knows the stat-e is into everything today, particularly in England, to such a degree that even there they may not be able to get along with public monies. MR..

S}fALLWOOD: Maybe the han. gentleman with his usual, gracious, generosity in these matters would allow me? Certair control over all the universities in the United Kingdom, all without exception, a large amount of control is exercised by a public body, appointed by the government,I believe,of the nation, although the appointment may not be exclusively governmental. It may be partly governmental and partly university,but exercised by, I think it is called, is it the University Commission? MR. WELLS: There is some such name. Yes. MR.

SMALUTOOD: Some such title as that, and they have an enormous amount of say, not in the internal management of the university, not in deciding which professor or associate professor or lecturer or demonstrator will be employed, not in what they are to teach or how they are to teach it,but in certain purely business and financial matters a tremendous amount of authority, without any suggestion of interferring with academic freedom.

~·farch 21, 1977 Tape 1121 JM- 3 MR. vffiLLS: I am sure that such is the case very, very much more in England now than twenty-odd years ago when I was there, because of course the power of the state is steadily decreasing. MR.. S~~UlOOD: And because they are paying so much money. ~. l•ffiLLS: And they are paying so much money. Of course,this is how the state in all modern countries really advances its power.

It does not set out I think by ministers and members and people in gove'rnment sitting dmm and saying, ~ve are going to move into that~but once they start naying more and more of the shot then their power becomes greater. But anyway I suppose that is another subject. . ' . So what I would say v1s-a-v1s Memorial, r1r. S-peaker, I would have no hesitation and would support the government fully if the government draws a line,as I am sure it ~.rill and does,with regard to Memorial.

It would have my com~lete support if it drew that line hard and fast,and if it fought Memorial down in its budget and forced it to economize in certain areas,which I am sure it does. That is fine and I support it totally,but I do not see pouring over the salary or the expense account of an individual professor in this House but the restrictions -yes, absolutely. They have to be imposed. They have to be imposed in every area of our lives here in Newfoundland or we ·will not survive. That is how I see the situation. But of all the areas of our public life 3:104

Harch 21, 1977 Tape 1122 IB-1 in Newfoundland, the area ~~There I, as an 5.ndivic1ual, would sacrifice most in terms of my taxes ~vould be in the area of education. Nm.; to talk more cirectly on the principle of this bill and the education of young people,which obviously is many fold, but we are talking here of polytechnical education as well as university education. I mentioned the word 'sacrifice' tvhich we all do to a greater or lesser extent by paying taxes in this Province and in this country to keep the whole thing going.

I would say this, I feel much better as a taxpayer about paying for the education of the children of this Province and the young people of this Province than any other thing, I think even the roads that I drive over. I think certain things that we have gotten into,for example~ in Canada, certain things like family allowances, I co not think they should continue as they have continued. Quite frankJ.y.,I do not see why I should get a check or my wife get a check for fal!lily "llor.rance for my children who tvere whatever age it is - I forget where it cuts off, sixteen or something. I really do not see it.

I think many members in this House are in the same boat, many members in the co~unity, who do not need these payments. HR.. SYALLHOOD: Is this not done to prevent snobbery? ~.fT:?.. t•!F.LLS : I suppose. So that the youngster in the classroom '!".>rho is getting it is not sneered at by the youngster whose parents are ~-real thy and that youngster does not get it? Is it not to prevent that? YF. vJELLS: It could be. You lmo~r, I have heard that advanced and it may be a perfectly legitimate thing.

But what I am really saying is that 1 you know,the budget of this country, of Canada, is getting so huge in relation to jts size that control and extent of government is going so many areas~and some areas I think are getting short shrift . and other areas so much money is going into. I myself - and this is a personal thing - v!Ould like to see more selectivity. You know, nobody would want to see money go more than I to elderly people, people who have served and worked their lives for the cot!'.l!!unity should not be in -.:rant. But if a man reaches sixty-five and he is not in v:ant, should ~ . - 3105

~arch 21, 1977 Tape 1122 IB-2 't>::R.. ~·TELLS: he get an old age pension?

Suppose he is really comfortably off and God knows, the state knows nm,• ~vho is rvell off and ~·!ho is not: They have got the figures, they have got all the books - you know, should "i.•e, should He not become more selective:._: I am wondering and I ~vender it al~ud . ~ _ in our social welfare system so that in areas of technical training, in areas of the people who really need it, elderly people, young people, children who need that education so desperately and have the ability ~mether it be technical or academic, Ymichever, you know,should we not be more selective in funnelli_ ~g our publ _{c mon{e~?.

Th. · h · ~ ~ - ~s ~s t e quest~on we arP askin "g. ' But whether we are selective or not and \vhether Y7e just lash it out or not,I say as an individual and a member of this House, I am more pleased to see my tax dollar go to educate young people than any other thing, any other direction that it can go. I say that and mean it. Now I know a lot of young people. I have come across them. I have teenage children myself,and older. I have defended people in the courts of this Province.

I have defended ever so many young people in trouble over the years, from marijuana, hashish, cocaine, every substance you can think of, every kind of trouble you can think of, from rape to "break and entry and all sorts of things. I have spoken at the university,in schools. I have come across a lot of young people. And I will say this, Yr.

Speaker, with all our faults and with all their shortcomings - and we all have them - I still think that we are breeding and bringing up a fine generation of young people in Newfoundland today. -· -And I talk to them, I talk to seventeen and eighteen and twenty year olds all the ti~e and I believe they have more on the ball than I had when I was that age and my contemporaries. I really think they have. So that Y7ith all the faults of our educationat system')it is not doing everything wrong.

Somebody is doing something right because I really think that · we are producing young people who can compete and compete well and w-ho have things on the ball, are thinking about auestions which, quite honestly, when I was seventeen or eighteen and nineteen I 3106

1-rarch 21, 19 77 Tape 1122 IB-3 _ P.. t1TELLS: did not even think about. So that, you know,the last twenty-five years have ~~trought great changes in education and they have not been all bad. And it upsets me for one to hear people saying,as you sometimes do,that our school are not doing the job they ought, they are not turning out young people and that the young,people in this Province ·and this country are going nowhere. I do not believe it.

Sure we have got our misfits and we have got our criminals and we have got these sorts of people,but we still have a very fine great many young people who I think are going to make a tremendous contribution in the future and ¥7ho are already able to make it. You know I was talking a fe,.Y !!lOTilents age> about Hemorial and I -- 3:107

March 21, 1977 Tape 1123 PK - 1 Mr. R. Wells: come back to Memorial now. I started Memorial in 1949,the year it became a University,and I suppose it is hard for me to be objective about Memorial because I owe that institution-not the present one, but what it was-I suppose I owe that University - I spent four years, its first four years as a University I spent there .- and it is incalculable to me as a person and an individual I what I owe that institution, and what I owe those who put it there, and paid for it, and in its inception sacrificed,and who it is called after.

I cannot think of anything more in my whole life that I owe more to than there, because I think the quality~ I cannot judge now, only secondhand-but then I could judge because the quality of the education that was obtained and the training that was given in Memorial in these first four years of its life as a University~ which I was there, and partook of and was part of,and I could compare it after to Oxford University, and in the fields, in the various - I know it was not as breadly based,nor did it cover one-tenth of of the subjects, but in what it taught and what I partook of it stood up, I think, and ranked anywhere, and I make no bones about saying it.

As I say.maybe when I am talking about the University, maybe I am not the one to be objective because I owe so much to it. And there are a great many - and I look around this House, and there are a great many others too in this House who owe so much to that University. So I do not think that we should ignore it. I do not think that we should let it run away with money. I think we should put the brakes on it, and I would have no hesitation in supporting the government ' in'making that brutally clear to the President and the Board of Regents.

But at the same time I do not think we should go right into its guts to the extent that we are making the University decisions and not the University. If they are not making proper decisions, if money is being thrown to the four winds,then I think we should use our power to replace the people who are there. But as long as they are there, and as long as they are doing a good job,

March 21, 1977 Tape 1123 PK - 2 Mr. Wells: we should support them, But at the same time say, 11You only operate within the financial constraints that this Province operates, and that you cannot go on,no matter how important we regard education, you have not got carte blanche and you cannot go on beyond a certain point, and insofar as money is concerned we will, the government of the people, the representatives of the people in this House,will draw the line,and you will fit within it. But within these constrictions you have our complete and total support,'' and I think that is the ~ay it should be.

So far as technical education is concerned and our young people, I think we have got to face certain other things too, Mr. Speaker. I happen not to think that Newfoundland can absorb at the moment all the young people who are coming out of its University and its technicial colleges and its schools, I do not think we can absorb them _in_J:o jobs which they are fitted and trained to do. Now maybe as the future comes along,as mo~e things develop, I thin~ we vill be able to absorb more and more, I think we are absorbing ' them all of the time.

It is astonishing to me sometimes how many young people we can absorb into good,well paying jobs, jobs where they can make the contribution that they are trained for.

But at the same time I think it would be wrong for us to peeach to our younger people, 11 Look,you have got to find a job in Newfoundland at all costs, and a job in Newfoundland sweeping the street is better than being a skilled tradesman in Ontario or in New York or in British Columbia or in Southeast Asia 1 come to that~' I think that I would like to see, and prefer to see our young people grow up with the faith in this whole world, and the faith in the country, and the faith in the Continent that they would feel that the whole world was their oyster, and if the opportunity was present here in Newfoundland take it and make something of it.

But if the opportunity was present in British -Columbia get out there, supposing they had to go on a bicycle. I think that should apply to people of all ages,working ages, I mean 3:109

March 21, 1977 Tape 1123 PK - 3 Mr. Wells: after all, you know, take any of us; if there was no opportunity here surely to heaven rather than sit down and ask the rest of the country to support us we would get up and go wherever it was necessary to got MR. NEARY: That was Jay Parker's philosophy. MR. WELLS: Well,no, If Jay Parker - Jay Parker got in a lot of trouble, you remember there a few years ago for saying, not that, I do not think that is what he said. I think he-the ~pression I got, _was that we shou_ld exl'ort people. That is not what I am suggestinsz. MR. SMALLWOOD: - -- . .

His ~oint was . that we just could not su~port,our population. MR. WELLS: That we could not. I think we can support our population; I think as we develop we will support a bigger population. But the point is that even if there was a job here for a young fellow, a job right here, but there.was a better job in British Columbia· and he was fitted and qualified for it,surely to heavens he would consider going_,and why ·not? A country is not built by people saying, W~lL . I belong here, and I cannot stir out of this. I' 3li.O

March 21, 1977 Tape no. 1124 Page 1 - mw Mr. Wells. My Heavens: Look at us around this Chamber. Our people came from England, from Ireland, from Scotland, from all over the place. Why? I presume for some reason at that given point of history they thought there was a better opportunity in the New World,and why should they not? If neople use this attitude, We are going to stick to one little spot, you know, I belong to St. John's, if there is an opportunity in Grand Falls, I cannot go there, you know, because I live here. No country was ever built that way. Just take the U.S., a tremendous country.

Well it goes without saying. Look how that was colonized with peo~le from the Old World who landed and built up the Eastern Seaboard but wave after wave of them went West, even up to eighty or one hundred years ago, and built a country, and they did it. They did not do it by being immobile. They did it by having that spirit of adventure, that desire to make something of themselves and the country. That is what made that country great, and that is what makes every country great.

And I would hate Newfoundland young people to feel, Well, boys, we will stick here, and we will get any kind of a job) it does not matter, but we will not go on somewhere else to some other part o~ the country or some other part of the world to take an opportunity because there is a job here. Because I would like to see more people also come to Newfoundland. We cannot absorb a great crowd, but people have come into Newfoundland right from day one and they have made a tremendous contribution. Look, my seat mate here to my right has come from;another country and made a great contribution.

My friend from across the way has come from Scotland, and he is making a contribution. He is making it here in this House. Do not-ever let us get so small and so parochical that we do not want to see people come in from outside, or we do not want to see our own people go out and enrich another country. We have got to strike a balance and Canada has got to

March 21, 1977 Tape no. 1124 Page 2 - mw Mr. Wells. strike a balance with its immigration policy and with its policies toward people moving about within this country. MR. NEARY: Would the hon. member not agree that ninety-nine per cent of the Newfoundlanders up in Ontario would come down if a new factory started for a better job? MR. WELLS: They probably would. But you __ .know __ _ what would happen, I think, is that they would come back with greater skills, probably greater drive,and a lot of more attributes than if they never had the opportunity to ge't away and see something else and work somewhere else.

So, you know, I say to our young people, Do not feel hidebound; Do not feel that you get a few days work, and go on unemployment insurance and call it a day, but feel that you are in a great country, a country that has a future. -~n J" it only ha~ a _ futnr~ if young people and middle age people and all the people who work and contribute are prepared to give it a future. That is the only way it is going to have a future.

If we sit do~vn on our backsides and say, Somebody else is going to do it, somebody else is going to support us, somebody else is going to put something here, somebody else is going to pay for it, we will never make this country great. And I think we could take a leaf out of the people of forty, fifty and hundred years ago. And it is a funny thing, you know, but I have no hesitation myself in feeling from what I have read, you know, that before we had the vast social security apparatus which we have now I believe countries built faster.

I often think that the social security apparatus does not really encourage a country and the people in the country to build and to make it great. You know, these social services are marvellous things. They serve a great purpose. They are expensive to maintain but, you know, sometimes I feel that they rob people of the initiative that they need. This is the hard fact of any social programme that 3:1:12

March 21, 1977 Tape no. 1124 Page 3 - mw Mr. Wells. you bring in. You bring'it in for someone who needs it and should have it, but somebody else who does not need it takes advantage of it and lies back on his oars. We are going to have to look at that in Canada, I think, in the next ten years, and in the next five years, and in the next two or three years. We are going to have to look at that.

And we have got to try to come out of this not with the system that they have in Sweden - fine country though it is - where now we read that people are lying back on their oars, and people are saying, Well I have got this right, and I have got that right, and I can take so many days off. I remember seeing in Time Magazine recently - I think iCwas Time Mag.::~. zine - talking about the number of days off a man is entitled to. You know, if his children are sick, that is fine. Everybody has to take a day off sometimes if there children are sick.

But the point is that apparently in Sweden they are allowed so many days off a year and they take them whether their children are sick or not. No country is going to get great that way. MR. NEARY: Canada leads the Western World in all tiiDe lost by strikes, sickness - MR. WELLS: Yes, sickness, all sorts of thing. MR. NEARY: - and all that sort of thing. MR. WELLS: Yes. That is right! There is something wrong there. MR. NEARY: Canada leads the whole world. MR. WELLS: Yes, there is something wrong. There is something ----- wrong.

And I wonder if it is not that with this social security blanket that we have in this 3:113

Harch 21,1977 Tape 1125 P....H-1 }fR. HELLS: - country that is not making people say,"Hell.,what the heckt" And this is a dangerous thing and my feeling is that a country gets strong, not by an individual saying,"I w·ant to make this country strong," people do not go around saying that, but people want to say, "I can get ahead,that there is a future for me and if I work hard and get of my seat, the seat of my pants,and make an effort that I can make something of myself." And if enough people are saying that and enough people are doing it they make the country great.

The people who rolled west in the covered wagons in the United States were not saying, "Hell, we are going to make this country great'.' They were going for a life and lives for themselves and their children. But when enough did it it made the country great.

And we have got to design our social systems here in Canada in such a T.vay that a young man and a young ~voman can grown up feeling that,There is something I can do and I am going to get paid for it,,,and I can get paid for it well enough to live and have a good life for myself and my children, and I want to stay in this country and I r..rant to make it great and I "torant to have faith in it. And I did not intend perhaps to get of on this track but - MR. S:t-W...LWOOD: Before the han. gentleman getf- of that theme, I wonder if he would allmv me to pose a problem to him?

The ambition of the world, the Hestern world,is obviously an ambition for an ever better and bigger a!'.d higher standard of living. Bigger houses, bigger cars ,more furniture, more roads, more paving, more everything and better, big~er and more costly and expensive. And a natural assumption on everybody 1 s . part that year, after year, after year he has got to rise and rise in the r.·mrld higher and higher and live more and more expensively

March 21, 1977. Tape 1125 RH - 2 HR. SMALLWOOD: and have more and more comfort and convenience and luxury, that this has got to be an annual thing. And any year that does not see an increase and an improvement is a lost year. Does he feel that that ideal is right, that it ought to be pursued, that it is right to pursue it,and that the standard can rise?

There can be better houses, better furnished, better cars, bigger cars and every everything bigger and better and costlier, that that is in fact possible, that the productivity of Canada, the United States, the United Kingdom and other countries can be improved,and in fact will be improved, that people will work harder, that they will produce more to justify the ever increasing and rising standard of living~ - O~on the other hand, the very opposite~ Can we all, and would it be good if we all ate less, dressed less, smaller houses, less pretentious, smaller cars?

Is it really necessary for us all to maintain the standard of living, the incredible standard of living that we have already reached? Is that - What ought we to aim at to prevent collapse of the whole economy of the world? MR. WELLS: The han. member has posed an interesting question and a vital question which I would love to debate with him on. For my part all I can say is in recent years I have eaten less at least, you know. But no, let me say this. I do not think that we can continue to support an ever increasing standard of living in this country - and I mean Canada now.

In fact, I think myself that around about 1972 we reached the high point in terms of material increase in standard of living. MR.ROBERTS: Has the hon. gentleman read the Club of Rome study? MR. WELLS: Yes, I have read reports of it, yes. HR. ROBERTS: It is sobering, though. HR • \>TELLS : I think there is no question about it. Well, maybe it was 1972, maybe it was 1973. But at that point, w·hen the energy crisis was what really brought it into focus, we got to the point in Canada, 1o1hen 1ve started, our standard of living - and not only 31.1.5

/ March 21, 1977. Tape 1125 RH- 3 MR \offiLLS: Canada, but the rest of the We·stern World• started to decline and it declined because although our wages were going up, our m.oney was buying less. And I think the hon. gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) would agree with me. I do not know when it was, btit it was somewhere in the early seventies. And I think that the standard of living of Canada now is below what it was, material standard,in 1970. Now I do not think for one moment that we should be 3tl6

March 21, 1977 Tape 1126 PK - 1 ¥r. Wells: aiming for bigger cars. I do not think we can aim for bigger cars, I think the cost of energy five years from now, the cost of a gallon of gasoline - well,what is it now~ $1.03, $1.04, $1.05 depending on whether it is premium or what? MR. MURPHY: $1.08. MR. WELLS: $1.08. AN HON. MEmER: Is that octane? MR. WELLS: I think myself as an individual with no knowledge any more than anybody else,I think that five years from now it is going to be $2.00 maybe $3.00 a gallon I think it is that in parts of Europe now. I think it is - AN HON. MEmER: How much? MR.

WELLS: It is $2.00 or $3.00 a gallon more. No question about it at all, and that is beyond our control. If we find it off the Coast of this country we are talking twelve or fifteen years ahead, if we are talking ·Tar Sarld development, we are still taking several years ahead. But whichever way you cut the cake, it is going to be $2.00, $3.00 a gallon in four or five years and upwards, and ten years from now if we are driving cars they are not going to be any bigger,in my opinion, than would encase your own body and perhaps that of another person along with you.

And ' ! would not doubt that we will go back to these - what do you call them? mo-peds or something that you peddle part of the time and have a little engine in the back wheel to take ~ou up over hills. This is the sort of thing that is coming. MR. MURPHY: MR. WELLS: that - MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. WELLS: MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. WELLS: MR. SMALLWOOD: We will be right back to your TR2's. Right back. And if we think otherwise, if we think The bon. member is only talking about a car - No, no, - only because of a shortage of gas. Oh, yes I am going to deal with other things. The whole -

March 21, 1977 Tape 1126 PK- 2 MR. WELLS: The whole thing. When you talk about gas you also think of electricity and heating, the same thing is coming to the Western World in that respect. So that we are going to have to scale down our material expectations in certain ways, but this is to do with energy. I think that we will be able to have high material expectations perhaps in other ways, in ways that technology can bring about.

So that I do not think,for example, let us take the United States, let us take the supplies of coal which they have, ~vhich can support that country in terms of energy for hundreds of · years. I think technology will go in that direction, and other directions that I do not know anything about. But I think the oil based technology that we have lived on for the past few years,I think that has to change. Now I do not think that we will ever again have the material expectations that we have had in the last twenty-f~ve years since the war,in answer to my han. friend's question.

I do not think so,but I think that we will have to learn to fillful our expectations in other ways, and I think technology will pay a very important

part in that, and I think social pursuits, educational pursuits, human development,is going to be extremely important.

But I would say this to the han. gentleman~and his experience is vastly greater than mine of life, but I wc,>uld say this; if you take away some form of attraction, some carrot, something to lead a person on and let him or her make the effort, if you take that away you are going to be back to Brave New World or Nineteen Eighty-Pour, where \ you had a population that · was stulified, unable to do anything except behave like sheep; if you take away that you will have what you have in Russia, where I was told by a fellow who visited it, oh this may have been ten years ago, and he said, - ~h~ he drove in from the airport in Moscow here were women down on their hands and knees with trowels leveling off the asphalt road.

Now I do not want to see us come to that kind of thing. And it is not because Russia did not have the technology to build an asphalt machine, it was the social system and 31.18

March 21, 1977 Tape 1126 PK - 3 MR. WELLS: the economic system that they had. So we have got to,if we can find it, we have got to keep rewards for people, We have got to make a difference between the man who lies down and says, "I am doing nothing~Let someone else feed me," and the man who gets up and makes the effort.

And if we want to teach our children anything, and if we want to train our young people in anything, as I see it, without knowing all of the answers, without being able to see the global picture,because none of us can,more than anything else we must be _prepared in Newfoundland to channel our resources into something to train our young people, and to give them - you know, you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. If a young person wants to shoot himself full of drugs and beer or whatever else,you are not going to make an educated working person out of him.

But if he has the desire and if he wants to make the effort,we have the obligation as the leaders and the taxpayers of this Province and this country to make it possible for him to do so. And if we have to make sacrifices in terms of taxes, if we have to lower our own standard of living to make that possible, then I say,sobeit let us do it, and no crying over it. Let us do it. So any money, any dollar of mine as a taxpayer 3~19

HARCH 21 , 19 77 Tape 1127 Page 1. l\!J' .• tmLLS: that goes into a polytechnic or to a university or to a school in this province, I say fine, great, I am all for it. But I do not 't>7ant to see it ~vas ted, that I think the public of Ne'l'!- ' foundland feels exactly the same as - I do . I am sure the members of the House do. Let us spenc . it' let '..lS spend it Hisely' let us ride herd on it. Let us reake sure it is not thrown to the four ~,.rinds. Let us make sure ~ve do not have too classy buildings, buildings_ that are overbuilt,facilities that are not nececsary.

We may yet have to get into a systen ~vhere edu-:ational facilities are used far more than the few hours a day tliat they are used now. Let us ride herd on it , let us be rough about it, but let us not deny the opportunity for education. I think we have got into concrete and glass and steel~ facilities that far transcend what I think real education is all about. Education is people, books the wherewithal to do a scientific experiment and the l.rill_ and desire to co so. Anyway, :Vr.

Speaker, I think my time is run out.I did not intend to get into these subjects but these are I think are interesting and _ ~~rthwhile debating in this Fouse. And I have no hesitation in heartily supporting this Bill, ;~t; only as a member of this House but as a taxpayer and a citizen of this province. YP.SPEAKER: The member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: ~~r. Speaker, I think I must be the seventh or eighth speaker to speak on this Bill. I just have a few words to say about it.

I must say, that all of the speakers that have spoken I think there has been unanimity amongst all of us for the need for a polytechnical_' institute in this province. ;i!m·r, I myself spent some five years as the principal of a hig~ school,and I think - -one of the honourable members here alluded to a topsy-turvy situation that happened some years ago. It was only,I think, three years ago that a particular student of mine told me th2t she had want~d to go to vocational school but un~ortunately her marks did not allow her.

But she has gotten into university,she had been accepted for university,however .-- that lvas not what she 3:120

HARCH 21, 1977 '!'ape 1127 Page 2. ¥-ranted to do she thought she YTOuld spend a year there. Now that sort of a situation· I think is something that needs to be overcome. I feel that we must have the r..rhere~·Tithal in the province to be able to respond to the needs of the province very quickly. ~.,Te must be able to, if it is the Lower Churchill or if it is the fishery, if it is the YToods industry, I think that we must have the capability to be able to train our students and train them in the type of skills that are needed in this province.

I do agree with the honourable member for Kilbride that ~.;rhen t~e do train our students in skills,and ~•e do give them a proper education in this province,t.;re are also giving them the capability to be able to go anywhere in the world and to be able to take up the task as an equal citizen anywhere in Canada or in the world. this. I think_ there is nothing wrong with However, looking at Bill I see that it is a P'~lling together of the schools at the present time and the Premier said that there will be added facilities.

Now I,even the pulling together of the existing facilities into a polytechnical institute,! think is a good thing. One of the things that has always bothered roe is that we have so many facilities in this province in the same areas which are used for so short a time, for such short times, but yet we have duplicated costs in community after community. At the present time in the school that I recently or left some time ago there is a Y7oodworking shop there. The students use it throughout the day, that is the students from the school.

There is also a metal shop in that particular school, it is one of those DREE schools. It is not an experiment anymore. It goes on all the time. At the present time the Bay St. George Community Council is using the facilities that is in that day school. The more of this we see in this province,the more of the coming 31.2i.

Ya:-ch 21 , 1977 Tape 1127 Page 3. VP. .• HOnDEP together and using facilities and breaking the structured system that v7e have at the present tine, so that lve use our facilities to t he rr.aximum advantage ,then I think the bette r lo:e Hill be off and the more perhaps tax dollars Fe l.rill be able to save .

}'!arch 21, 19 77. Tape 1128 RH- 1 MR. HODDER: Now, there is something else I would like to say and it is on the polytechnical institute. Some four years ago I was a member of the Chamber of Commerce, Bay St. George. It takes in Bay St. George, it takes in my district. There are members on it from my district. And I was one of the directors and I was responsible for educ~tion. At that time, as some hon. members may remember, there was a fight between communities in the briefs sent to ministers, all that sort of thing, because the West Coast Reg~onal College was going to be built somewhere.

And, of course, Stephenville's and Bay St. George's feeling, the feeling in the area and the feeling from all the groups in the area, all the councils in the area, right from St. George's to the Bill of Cape St. George, the feeling was that it should come in Bay St. George. We fought very hard for it. But the government decided that it would go to Corner Brook. Now that is done. I say nothing about '-, it. We put up our fight. We sent our briefs. We used the publicity. We did all that sort of thing. And it went to Corner Brook.

I have at this time, perhaps deep down within me, I would have liked to have seen - I hate to lose a fight. But the day that it did go to Corner Brook - and I am giving the history of the West Coast version of the polytechnical institute - that particular day it was announced by Premier Moores, the Premier, at a Rotary luncheon in Corner Brook- I heard it, I listened to it - he told the ~otarians that indeed they would have the West Coast Regional College, it would be built in Corner Brook, they would not be using the buildings in Stephenville.

But he went on to say that Stephenville would get the polytechnical institute. He made that promise. It is documented. It is on tape. I have heard it. So has everybody in Bay St. George. And do you know, Mr. Speaker, that for the 3:123

Harch 21, 1977. Tape 1128 RH- 2 MR. HODDER: past three years we laboured under the assumption in Bay St. George that the polytechnical institute was going to be built sometime or other, that it had been deferred, and it was only when the Minister of Education made a statement that it would go in Western Newfound- land-or it would go in St. John's,or the thing that was going to be drawn together, that we realized, ~ou know, we are not going to get it. MR. MURPHY: Is that "the" polytech or "a" polytech, only one? MR. HODDER: "A'' , I meant a polytechnical institute.

Now, again if I were on the other side of the House, and I had to make a decision as to where the polytechnical institute - well personally I feel in many cases that perhaps we have centralized our education facilities too much and in this day of quick communication that we can move things in other parts of the Province. However, we ask for a regional college, we were promised a polytechnical inst~tute,and we got a community college. Now there is a bill coming up on the community college in a little while and I will have something to say about that. What I am pointing out here is that there was a broken promise.

There was a promise made. It was made. It was printed. It has been said. No one on the other side of the House would dare deny that the promise was made. It has not happened. And I cannot let this bill go by - perh?.ps I am lowering the tone of the debate somewhat - but I cannot let this particular bill go by without saying that the Premier of this Province has broken another promise in Bay St. George, and that I was one that was made firmly. His words were, "A polytechnical institute will go to Bay St.

George and in the long run they will be better off than perhaps the people of Corner Brook." Then he went on to tell what a great thing this would be. So I had to raise that, Mr. Speaker. However, those words aside and those particular feelings aside, I do think that this is a good thing. I do think we need a polytechnical institute. I 3:124

March 21, 1977. Tape 1128 RH- 3 MR. HODDER: do hope it goes ahead this year,as the Premier said it would. It is for the good of the Province. Perhaps the place where it must go, that is a decision. I wanted to point out a broken promise. But I do hope that it will be a successful thing. I say one other thing, that even though the Premier had promised the polytechnical institute to Stephenville, he can still make good because we do have a Bay St. George Community College. That is what we got. I will speak more about that when we get to that particular bill.

But I thin_k that there is a potential there which perhaps would solve the needs of the whole area. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 31.25

}farch 21, 1977 Tape 1129 ~. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. John's East. MP_. ~SHALL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Being so far out here in right field it is extremely hard apparently to get recognized. So it is very gratifyinR that at last after about three days that I can manage to get into the debate. Mr. Speaker, what I am going to say a fe~o1 words on JM- 1 pertains to a major part of this bill that I think merits reconsideration by the government. But before so doing I would like to say that certainly we all support the principle of this bill as such to establish a polytechnical institute in Newfoundland.

The fact of the matter is though I think we have to remember that this very beneficial institution can only come when funds are available to commence it and to finish it. i\Te have been informed that a start is about to be made. Now the funds will have to come from that portion of the budget available for education,quite obviously,and quite obviously there is far from an unlimited supply of money in this province. So we are g~ing to have to decide our priorities in education as to what priority this institute gets.

Now the thing that bothers me before we decide how to slice the pie as it were,the economic pie available for education, as to how we can possibly make the necessary objective judgements to this end without the budget of-Memorial University being available for us to determine how Memorial is really spending its money.

As Memorial would be one of the items which would have a very high claim,and justifiably so,on the educational monies which are available from this province for the ensuing year and years to come~and I say pray tellus~ we know that this is a very necessary step that is being taken, but how in heavens name can we make a really objective judgement of the amount that should go to vocational education, the amount that should go to post-secondary education and to secondary education if one of these institutions does not have to come before this legislature and indicate the 31.26

Harch 21, 1977 Tape 1129 JM- 2 MR. MARSHALL : general nature and extent and reasons and what exactly it is doing with its money? But the point that I want to bring up is probably related to that,but it is a matter on this bill itself, ~r. Speaker, and it is a matter of the financial control of this legislature over institutions,and how this bill,in my mind,falls somewhat short and endangers the possibility of another elitist institute or organization growing up in the presence and persons of this polytechnical institution.

Nm-1 I think we all agree that every member who has spoken to one degree or another agrees that this institution,and all government agencies for that matter,must be more responsive to this legislature which votes the funds, that there must be a means devised for the purpose of not only of tabling the budgets of the various crown agencies, crown corporations, institutes, university and what ·have you,but there must be method devised for the efficient means of examining these budgets so that intelligent voting can be made on it particularily in these days where dollars are very scarce.

Yet this act to my mind falls a little bit short of a satisfactory procedure for the examination of the budget of this institution. Now if we look at Hemorial, to get back to Memorial again, we see from the Memorial University Act that there is no requirement whatsoever for Memorial to submit its budget to this legislature,or for that matter to submit it to the Minister of Education or to submit it to anybody.

I think in actual fact, in practice certainly over the past few years,the practice has grown up that Memorial has oresented a budget of sorts,as it were, a very loose budget to the Ministry of Education but it never gets before the floor of this House. MR. NEARY: As a matter of fact the president made a statement that he would publish it in the newspaper before he would give it to the members of the House of Assembly. 3:1Z7

~arch 21, 1977 Tape o. 1129 :n-r - 3 'MR. ~RSHALL: Well,! do not choose to debate with the president, but if the president made that statement it is a very unwise statement for him to make. MR. NEARY: certainly is • HR.. MARSHALL: sunportable. For a man who used to teach Political Science it And not one that I would find myself to be But now on this bill, what does this bill do? This bill, as far as I can see under

section 13 of the act, attemnts to come half way between the position of no renorting that Memorial ha~ the right to~ and the responsibility to this legislature that the general public of this Province has a right. Because

section 13 says, Mr. Sneaker, "The Board shall (this is the Board of Governors in the institution) submit to the minister a budget containing the estimates of that· institute for the year - the polytechnical institute - and the minister may ap~rove or disauprove of the budget," and then it goes on in

section 14 to say that,, "The general funds of board shall consist of any monies appronrfated by the legislature for the institute or for the purposes of the board." Nowhere in the bill does it say that the budget of this institute 31.28

March 21, 1977 Tape 1130 PK - 1 Mr. Marshall: is to be tabled here in the Legislature or for there to be provisions for the discussing of that budget before monies are granted to it. What is required is that the Board merely submit a budget to the minister 1 who may or may not inform the Legislature, he certainly has no duty to do so, and the Legislature then appropriates money.

And what I am afraid of is exactly the self same thing will happen in fact under this bill as now apparently happens in practice with Memorial University in that the monies for the polytechnical institu~e will be voted in one block as they are in the case of Memorial University, and that the budget itself will not get the detailed examination that such a budget must have. So I am going to make - MR. SMALLWOOD: They will be treated like the University rather than the trade schools and the technology college and the Fisheries College. MR. HOUSE: colleges. The same legislation now as we got for the technology MR.

MARSHALL: Yes, but what I am afraid of really is, you know, that - I do not know whether I understand the observation - Mr. Speaker, I do not think I can talk over the din either. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member is finding it difficult to speak with the noise, so if hon. mem~ers would govern themselves accordingly. MR.

MARSHALL: But tlle position is, you know, the position is whether it is Memorial University or the polytech institute or the other Cinderellas of the government, the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Corporation,which is really a story in itself as to its latitude that it gets in the expenditure of public fundsJor for that matter another Cinderella child, the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation,whatever the agency or the Crown corporation involved 1 or the institute involved,that they should be responsive to this Legislature.

And I am going to make a suggestion now that I would hope that the minister would take into consid~ration and that when we come into Committee perhaps the government might see itself 3:129

March 21, 1977 Tape 1130 PK- 2 Mr. Marshall: clear to remedy the situation as presented by this Act. I think it is a good thing that the Board of Governors have to submit there estimates to the minister, but I think that it should go further. I think there should be a requirement on the Minister of Education or on the government to table the estimates for,or the budget for,this institute within twenty-four hours of their tabling of the general estimates of the government.

Because that would mean then that it would be available to this House when the.provision,whatever form it comes in,the general estimates would be available, at least,for the members of this House to be able to examine this detailed budget and to have advanced notice and to be able to intelligently debate and answer questions when the particular vote comes before the House. Now I go even further than that, I think that this provision ought to be in each and every kindred type of legislation of this kind.

I think it ought to be provided for Memorial University, it ought certainly to be provided for the Hydro Corporation, the Housing Corporation, for the Liquor Corporation, and for the Harmon Cprporation, the myriad boards and Crown corporations that operate under the shelter of this government, and operate from the basis of public funds. I think further,as well,that it is impractical to think that just the mere tabling of these particular budgets will serve ·the purpose.

I think there ought to be established in this House a permanent Standing Committee on Crown corporations, government agencies and the University for the purpose of examining the estimates or the budgets of these particular concerns including the polytechnical institute, that such a committee will have to be given a certain period of time in which to report back, say twenty-five hours before the main estimates are passed to ensure that these myriad concerns which in effect operate very, very independently of this government get at least some type of examination, some intelligent type of examination of their budgets and estimates.

Because, Mr. Speaker, I am very .· 31.30

March 21, 1977 Tape 1130 Mr. Marshall: afeared of the way things are going now we get these block provisions presented to us for 3:13:1 PK - 3

March 21, 1977 Tape 1131 JM - 1 MR.. MARSF..ALL : the various concerns. There is not enough information available for members to ask prope~ and appropriate questions. For instance you take Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro­ and obviously I am not going to get into a debate, Mr. Speaker, But before you call me to order about a matter not under debate here this is with relation to the polytechnical institute and the requirement of reporting to the legislature. That is where it hits its relevancy.

You take the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Corporation, I mean they have been operating here in its new form for three or four years. They have been more or less the darling of this government for the past two or three years and there are issues that should be discussed. In this province of 500,000 souls we cannot be indirectly supporting a jet airplane with an eligible work force of what?-about 80,000 people and twenty percent of them being out of work and a jet plane being used by one of the Crown corporations to ferry officials of Newfoundland Hydro hither, tither and yon and what have you.

If this plane were sold and turned into cash, as it certainly should be1 then there would be that much more money available to CFLCo.~ therewould be that much more money coming back in dividends to this province and that is where it is relevant. MR. NEARY: Come on over on this side of the House, boy. MR. MARSHALL: I am afraid I could not come over on the other side of the House. I shan't get into the other side of the House today, Mr. Speaker, because I want to talk about sensible things and sensible matters. This is what I am trying to do. But the only point I want to bring up on this bill, Mr.

Speaker, is ask the governmen~, please do not start, do n~t create another elitist type of institute - you know not to create another,as I say, elitist tY?e of institute or agency which surely will occur if this bill is passed 1 and to at least provide in the legislation here that these estimates or this budget that is to be presented

~arch 21, 1977 TApe 1131 JH - 2 MR.. MARSHALL : to the minister must be tabled here contemporaneously with the tabling of the estimates, the main estimates themselves?or within twenty-four hours so at the very least we r,7fll have the opportunity to be able to intelligently look at the workings and operations of the institute itself so that we can see whether or not they deserve to be voted the money which they wish to have voted to them. ~IR. SMALLWOOD : Would the member before he completes his speech allow me to ask him to clarify a point that arose in the course of his speech?

He said that the legislation now before the House does not provide for the tabling of the budget of the polytechnic in this chamber and provision of an opportunity therefore for a debate on that budget. I would like to ask him if he can tell me whether the legislation that exists ~vith regard to the Fisheries College and ~vith regard to the College of Technology and with regard to the sixteen or seventeen trade schools provides for the tabling of their budgets which~of coursejwould lead to the opportunity in this House to debate those budgets?

Unlike .the case of the university,where there is no legislative provision for the tabling of their budget,or opportunity to debate their budget> that in fact - do I understand him to suggest that in the absence of that particular provision in the present bill that we are now debating. in the absence of that there maybe1in fact,no budget tabled, no opportunity to debate> that it will be exactly like the case of the university? Is that what the han. gentleman is suggesting?

MR.. ~-~'ARSHALL: What I am saying is these other institutes~ to 'tvhich the hon. member referred, the other concerns.are very much similar to this one,the polytechnical institute 1 that is now being brought before the House here. MR. SMALLWOOD : But their budgets are tabled. 31.33

March 21, 1977. Tape 1132 RH - 1 MR. MARSHALL : No, wait nmv. No, I' do not think they are tabled. Are they? Are their budgets tabled? MR. HOUSE: Every detail can be tabled. MR.. MARSHALL: Wait now. They can be tabled. MR. SMALLWOOD: But they are and the Auditor General's reported on them. MR. MARSHALL: Well now that is a fact, Mr. Speaker, that the han. gentleman brings up frnm time to time when I have made statements like this. But what the Auditor General reports on, and this is a significant fact, is he reports on what has occurred after the fact. He does not - MR.

SMALLWOOD: MR. !-1ARSHALL: a fait accompli. l1R. SMALLWOOD : MR. MARSHALL: That is all any audit does. The han. gentleman will agree with that. It is But all audits .are like that. All audits are like it. Now what I am asking for is something different. I am asking for the budgets that are presented to the minister) be it under this act or any other act, that they be tabled prior to the voting of the estimates for that particular year to which they apply. In other words,we have · before us at the time the budgets and we know exactly what we are voting on.

We do not get the budgets one year, eighteen months or even two years afterwards, after the monies have been spent, after the Auditor General can only report on irregularities. And the Auditor General never reports, because it is not within his province,as to whether or not it was appropriate to have the money spent in the first place other than the fact if the money were spentbeyond the law, beyond the reach of the law. But he never inquires as to whether it is appropriate, whether we can afford it> because these issues are not his concern. And what I would like to 31.34

March 21, 1977. Tape 1132 RH- 2 UR.

MARSHALL : see with respect to this particular institute, the other agencies to which the hon. member refers, Crown corporations, Memorial University, is a tabling of the estimates and the establishment of a permanent, standing committee here in this House for the purpose of examining these estimates and reporting back before the main estimates are passed because it is only that way that this House can regain some of the control, a lot of the control that has been wrestled from its hands by reason of the fact that of the creation of these myriad Crown corporations and agencies that spend a large part and a large hunk of the money that is appropriated by this legislature here.

So this is my suggestion. I would hope the minister would address himself to it because, after all) it is this government which has taken steps to restore to the ·House of Assembly its control over the spending and the borrowing,and what have you,in this Province, and I think that its steps under the Financial Administration Act were good steps that were taken. But I do not think that we should sit back and say that is all that needs to be done.

When you see the darlings of this government such as Hydro, the Housing Corporation, Memorial University spending money without accounting to the Province, in such large amounts as this, I think we as members have got to do something about it. Otherwise the statement to the effect and the observation . that this House is becoming increasingly irrelevant becomes very true and very meaningful. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I want to make a few brief remarks on the polytechnical institution .- AN RON.MEMBER: Brief? 3135

March 21, 1977. Tape 1132 RH- 3 MR. FLIGHT: They will be brief. - as proposed by the government. It is my understanding that a polytechnical institution is really an extention of our vocational school system. And one of the most frustrating problems that is facing students, graduates of the vocational school system in Newfoundland today, parents, House of Assembly members or anybody else,is the inability of those graduates to find a job when they graduate. It would be very interesting statistics to bring into this House, Mr.

Speaker, the percentage of graduates out of our vocational school system in Newfoundland today that are indeed employed in the courses in which they graduated. r· submit there are mor~ graduates doing something else other than what they graduated in. If that is indeed a fact, and I submit it is a fact, then those students have wasted two years.

Because ~f a young man goes into vocational school and trains for two years or three years to be a plumber or a carpenter and ends up driving a truck,, then the two or three years and the money it cost him is of no value to him, it would have been better had he went to theLuniversity and r 3i36

~.rarch 21, 1977 Tape 1133 Page 1. ~m.FLIGHT: got t"~.TO years of general education it l,rould have been more sel_f-serving. So, }'fr. Speaker, I think - MR. MURPHY: Sure he would still end up driving a truck. HF.FLICHT: Fe tvould still end up driving a truck but at least he would be a little better edn.cated truck oriver. The y~ars he spent :'.earning to use carpenter tools would not have helped him and we can talk about that for hours but that is a fact. I am beginning to wonder Yr. Speaker, if there is not may be enough vocational schools in Ne~rroundland. If there is not ~ay be too many.

The onus on this government, the onus on the department of er\ucation I·!r. Speaker, is to try to guarantee to the point that can be guaranteed the ability of the student who graduates to find a job. \~at is happening ~""r. Speaker, is that this Province is fnnding vocational schools and now proposing to fun_d a polytechnical institution that will send our students out of New-foundland and t~ work in areas where the jobs are. They are not in Ne~~oundland. It is a great concept. It is a great concept but the question again is what happens when they g~aduate?

The poiytechnical institute too, you know, is being supported this past year or two by our claim of bringing in offshore oil. we are going to need expertise, we are going to need individuals who are technicians in that type of thing. ~r. Speaker, the fact is we are not close to bringing in offshore oil. We are not close that I am aware of. He are not in a position to open the refinery. 7he Linerboard Y.ill is cl0sing down. Offshore oil i.s,at this point a dream.

So, - r where are the industries in Newfoundland that are going to take in the graduates of a polytechnical institution tvhen ~re cannot indeed absorb a half or may~e - less . of the graduates of our vocational schools. So, lfr. Speaker, it will be fine to have a polytechnical institution. I am all for a polytechnical institution but I am more for finding ~"'ays of guaranteeing

~!arch 21, 1977 Tape 1133 Page 2. !-1P .• FLIGH~-t our young men and ~,Tomen ~1ho are coming out of our vocational schools - if we cannot employ those 1mere are we going to employ the gra r1uates of the polytechnical institution at this stager This is supposed to be a government of priorities. !·rr. Speaker, if the Province indeed needs, and if the Province can indeed afford to fund a polytechnical institutio~ then I question the ~visdom in establishing that institution in St. John's. He have the university in St. John's no one can question that, it is the capital city. He have the fisheries college in St. John's and again the enrollment ·in that fisheries college is made up of, to a large

part 1 students frnm outside of St. John's. Speaker, cannot some consideration be given to establishing that polytechnical institution in Grand Falls central"? The chances are- MR. HICKMAN: That about Grand Bank? 1-P .• FLIGHT: Or Grand Bank. · You kno.;.y the minister is very smart - but Grand Falls }1r. Speaker, would be Central. I am just saying that we owe it to the students of this province to be as close to home in their studies as they can be. Grand Falls would be an ideal situation, the ~entral Newfoundland area, Grand Falls-\o7indsor. It would serve a better purpose, ~~r. Speaker. MR.

LUNDRIGAN: The bon. minister does not have a chance. MB .• FLIGHT: The bon. minister does not have a chance. Hr. Speaker, I suppose in the concept of a polytechnical institution we have to think in terms of training people for expertise in forestry, mining, · secretarial science this type of thing. T~Tell, ~-~r. Speaker, I woulC. submit that the great, the most people - in Ne"t-7foundland today . those kinds of needs are not in the St. John's area.

You know, I are not aware of any forestry oper~~ions,any mining operations, that would re~uire the highly technical skills that "tvould come as the result of graduating from a polytechnical institution. in St. John's. I am aware of them in the Central !Tewfoundland a.rea, Grand Falls and the mining belts. In as far as preparing our young people to take

part in the great industries 31.38

'Varoh 21, 1977 Tape 1133 P age 3. }"R. 'FL IGRT : that will come as the result of bringing in offshore oil and gas then I suppose the polytechnical institution in Grand Falls could accomplish as much as one in St. John,s could accomplish. Hr. Speaker, this gove"tP.!tl.ent has indicated on a fe~1 occasions that they are concerned with :region~l disparity within the province, tbat they are prepared to make Moves that w~uld indicate they are as concerned about rural N'ewfotm.dland as they are .about s t .John's W:l;!ll here is a great chance for them to prove they are.

The polytechnical institute.»if indeed it is going to be established could probab1Y .. fro11l .the economic backbone of a town like Windsor. ~·Then I fi.gure the support they will need, the teaching staff, the service area, Why not, J-~r. Speaker? For years 31.39 ..

March 21, 1977 Tape 1134 PK - 1 Mr. Flight: the town of Windsor have been looking for assistance from this government,not assistance by way of handout, but they have been looking for the type of financial input that will help them create an industrial base, a tax base. If a polytechnical institute can do for Windsor what Memorial University has done for St. John's then, Mr. Speaker, Windsor's troubles will be over. So why not consider Windsor? Why not consider putting it in a town in Newfoundland that would stand to gain the most from that institution being established there. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

FLIGHT: Certainly St. John's is not the place to put that polytechnical institution. And, Mr. Speaker, I could go on about, you know, I do not want to offend the people of St. John's, but I could go on and make a case against St. John's getting that polytechnical institution.

Certainly if the government are real, if they are sincere in their indicated desires to do what they can do to guarantee the economy of rural Newfoundland,then establishing an institution such a polytechnical institution,that would have the kind of benefit,that would guarantee the kind of benefits from an employment point of view and otherwise,then if do, if they refuse to establish it in any other community outside of St. John's, and that could well be Grand Bank as far as I am concerned, but not St. John's• St. John's do not need it, Windsor needs it, Springdale needs it, St. Anthony needs it, but St.

John's do not need it. Bay St. George may need it, but St. John's does not need it. MR. STRACHAN: Labrador does. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, there was some bon. gentleman here years ago who referred to this - I never forgot the phrase, he referred to St. John's as the Parasite City. That may not indeed be a complete fact. But if St. John's continues,that every time there is a new development in this Province, every factory, every 31.40

March 21, 1977 Tape 1134 PK - 2 Mr. Flight: Federal Government agency, every educational facility, if they continue to insisit on having it established in St. John's then they a~~ going to well