2009 Legislative Session: Fifth Session, 38th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.

The printed version remains the official version.

official report of

Debates of the

Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Thursday, February 26, 2009

Afternoon Sitting

Volume 38, Number 13

CONTENTS

Routine Proceedings

Page

Introductions by Members

Statements (Standing Order 25 b )

B.C. Wildlife Federation

D. Routley

Vancouver Opera and school program

R. Sultan

Cariboo Chilcotin Elder College

C. Wyse

Robert Bloy

H. Bloy

Economic recovery

D. Cubberley

Bulkley Valley Rod and Gun Club

D. MacKay

Oral Questions

Budget provisions for community development trust

B. Simpson

Hon. K. Krueger

Government support for Vancouver Island forest workers

L. Krog

Hon. K. Krueger

D. Routley

Hon. P. Bell

Budget provisions for community development trust

C. Evans

Hon. K. Krueger

Hon. C. Hansen

Forest industry issues on Vancouver Island

J. Horgan

Hon. P. Bell

Meat inspection regulations

C. Wyse

Hon. M. Polak

Point of Privilege (Reservation of Right)

B. Simpson

Petitions

C. Wyse

Tabling Documents

Public Service Benefit Plan Act, annual report, 2007-2008

Hon. M. Coell

Petitions

D. Routley

Motions Without Notice

Membership of select standing and special committees

Hon. M. de Jong

Committee of Supply

Supplementary Estimates: Ministry of Tourism, Culture and the Arts

S. Herbert

Hon. B. Bennett

J. Kwan

C. Wyse

M. Farnworth

N. Macdonald

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THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 26, 2009

The House met at 1:34 p.m.

[Mr. Speaker in the chair.]

Introductions by Members

Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members, I would like to make an introduction this afternoon. Gracing us with his presence in the members gallery is the Manitoba Speaker, the Hon. George Hickes. George heads a delegation from Manitoba. Our Manitoba colleagues have met with both the Government and Opposition House Leaders this morning and also spent time in discussions with members of the Public Accounts Committee and with the government and opposition Whips.

I want to remind members that I've told Speaker Hickes that this is one of the best-behaved legislatures in Canada. So I'm sure that you won't let me down on this one. Would all members join me in a round of applause for Speaker Hickes. [Applause.]

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K. Whittred: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of yourself, I thank you for welcoming Speaker Hickes. His colleagues who are with him in the gallery this afternoon are Kevin Lamoureux; Gerald Hawranik, Opposition House Leader; Len Derkach, Chair of Public Accounts; and Jennifer Howard, vice-Chair of Public Accounts. Also with them is the Clerk of the Manitoba Legislative Assembly, Patricia Chaychuk.

I would like to add my own little personal note here that I had the pleasure of enjoying some Manitoba hospitality last summer when I attended a Speakers' conference in Winnipeg. I wish to say that they really treated us very, very well. So would the House please join me in welcoming our Manitoba guests.

D. Routley: I would like to also add my welcome to Speaker Hickes. He was a very gracious host to us during that conference, and we learned that his nickname was the Cold-Water Cowboy because in his days in the Inuit areas of this country he and his brother were the only two people who were licensed to capture beluga whales before they were bred in captivity. He would jump off a boat that would be sailed up beside them and actually ride the whales.

So that is one very brave Speaker up there. Not that you're not very brave yourself there, Mr. Speaker, as we see on a daily basis. [Laughter.]

Interjections.

D. Routley: He swims in here regularly.

I would also like to have the House help me welcome two teachers from the Cowichan district: Ms. Lisa Leclerc and Ms. Sharon Hall. They're both teachers at L'Ecole Duncan Elementary. That was named Duncan Elementary School in my days, when I attended it. But it's now a French immersion school. They're very gracious guests of this House and the teachers academy here.

D. Hayer: It gives me great pleasure to introduce 56 grade 5 students visiting from the Pacific Academy, which is an outstanding school in British Columbia, from my riding of Surrey-Tynehead. Joining them are their two teachers Mr. Rick Bath and Mrs. Nancy Bakken, along with 39 parent volunteers who have taken time away from their busy

schedule to accompany these students. Would the House please make them very welcome.

C. Wyse: I would ask the House to join with me today in welcoming Kari Mathew, who is the teacher from Cariboo-Chilcotin. Her assignment places her at Williams Lake. She joined us this week as part of the Premier's teachers' innovation program. With that, I would ask the House to make her very welcome.

Hon. I. Chong: Today we have a number of guests visiting, and I know they're no stranger to all members of this Legislature. They represent the Genome B.C. board of directors, and they're here to have their annual dinner and meeting. I would like to introduce Mr. David Dolphin, who is the chair of Genome B.C. Vancouver; Dr. Allan Pelman, vice-chair; Dr. Rosemary Ommer; Dr. Michael Stevenson; Ms. Jan Whitford; Dr. Alan Winter; Dr. Tony Brooks; Miss Liliane Forcier; Mr. Richard Howlett; and Mr. Peter O'Callaghan.

I just wish them all the very best in their deliberations and thank them for being here and the good work that they do. Would the House please make them all very welcome.

S. Fraser: Part of the contingent of stellar teachers visiting us this week…. One of those teachers is from my constituency. Robert Boates is here from Qualicum Elementary School. Would you all please join me in making him feel very welcome.

J. Nuraney: Among the group of teachers who are attending this Legislature today is a member, Tom Cikes. He is a teacher in Burnaby — a teacher who teaches at the youth detention centre. I think that's a very commendable job that he does. I would like the House to please join me in welcoming him.

J. Horgan: I have the pleasure today to introduce two constituents of the Leader of the Opposition. Anne-Marie DeLorey is the opposition caucus research director.

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She is joined by Hesquiat DeLorey-Tully, a grade 9 honours French immersion student from Victoria High School. Hesquiat plays bantam rep hockey for

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the Victoria Ice Hawks, who haven't been able to beat the Sooke Thunderbirds yet, but I'm sure they'll keep on trying. He's an avid rock drummer. He likes AC/DC. He's back in black. Would the House please make him welcome.

R. Thorpe: Six years ago I rose in this House to announce the birth of my grandson Eben, or as I sometimes call him, Rocco. Tomorrow, February 27, at 10:30 p.m., Eben will celebrate his sixth birthday. To say he's the joy of our life is an understatement. Since this is the last time I will have the opportunity to wish my grandson a happy birthday in this House, I would ask all members to join with me in wishing Eben a very happy sixth birthday.

D. Hayer: We also have Brenda Ball, a teacher from Fleetwood Park Secondary School in my riding, who has been visiting here. Brenda has been selected to participate in the eighth annual B.C. Teachers Institute on Parliamentary Democracy. Would the House please make her welcome. She's a great teacher in Surrey.

Hon. T. Christensen: I would hope that the House will join me in welcoming Mr. Paul Boyd, who is one of the exceptional teachers at Charles Bloom Secondary in Lumby, a school I've had the opportunity to visit on a number of occasions. Paul is here attending the spring teachers institute, and I know he will take much of what he learns this week back to students at Charles Bloom to enrich their lives further. Would the House please welcome Paul.

Statements

(Standing Order 25

b) B.C. WILDLIFE FEDERATION

D. Routley: I rise today to speak to the House about the B.C. Wildlife Federation. They are great stewards of wildlife and habitat in British Columbia. In British Columbia there are over 30,000 members of this fine organization. On Vancouver Island alone there are 7,000. They defend access rights to our rivers, and on Vancouver Island that's a very important issue, as much of our land is under private managed forest lands management.

The B.C. Wildlife Federation members ran the gates in these lands through their fish and game clubs in Duncan. They managed the Shawnigan Island Timberland sites, and all around the Island it's the same story.

In the early 2000s gates went up, and they were denied access in a wide area. Removal of lands from tree farm licences has taken 500 square miles of land and designated that for possible development.

This is challenging the access of anglers and the B.C. Wildlife Federation members to those lands, and the public generally. The B.C. Wildlife Federation partners with groups like Living Rivers foundation on their work like the fishways in the Little Qualicum River area and the seeding of fish nutrients in the Chemainus River.

To get the economy moving, we should get fishers casting. The saltwater recreational fishery in this province accounts for $700 million in economic activity. The freshwater fishery, almost $400 million. That's a total of almost $1.1 billion in economic activity.

Habitat damage and marine survival are the main issues facing our fish. What can we do in this House? We can protect the habitat, we can effect land use decisions, we can make better logging practices, we can invest in smolt quality and production, we can invest in habitat recovery, and we can make adequate assessments for a sustainable industry.

The B.C. Wildlife Federation. They're partners in securing a sustainable future for our environment and our economy. Let's all of us in this House commit to honouring them and supporting these dedicated British Columbians.

VANCOUVER OPERA AND

SCHOOL PROGRAM

R. Sultan: On April 3 Vancouver Opera will again perform in front of North Shore school children with their production of Jack Pine . Short, twisted and misunderstood, Jack finally receives the recognition he deserves in the forest. "Wood is good" has seldom had such musical support.

I first encountered these professionals at Cleveland School, where their production of The Barber of Barkerville featured our local version of the world's most famous barber, Figaro. Grade 3 and 4 students sat on the floor of the gym, were entranced by the singing, the sets and the plot. During the Q-and-A period, the first question was: how do I become an opera singer? The second was: how do they get that hotel sign to stick on the Velcro for a quick change?

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Each year Vancouver Opera in Schools visits 150 elementary schools in the province and performs before 50,000 students from North Shore to Nelson. It's all perfectly wonderful.

Intrigued by The Barber of Barkerville , I ventured downtown to see my first taste of a real opera, Carmen — "Deadly passion in Seville." Wow. But watch out for those erotic gypsy dancers. Emboldened, I sampled another, Eugene Onegin — "Impossible romance in Czarist Russia." Wow again. I'm hooked. I can't wait to see Rigoletto — "Treachery in a twisted court" — and the season finale Salome —"Lust and prophecy in Judea."

Under the superb leadership of James Wright and the vigorous musical direction of Jonathan Darlington, each performance of the Vancouver Opera Company should be a sellout and frequently is. So if you enjoy staged his-

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trionics, passion and guile, skip question period and go to the opera.

CARIBOO CHILCOTIN ELDER COLLEGE

C. Wyse: For more than 50 years I have been involved in schools. I attended grades 1 though 13 in Kamloops, completed my university in Vancouver and taught secondary school in Williams Lake for 35 years.

Many of my friends and colleagues didn't stop there. They are still going to school. My constituents are able to continue their lifelong learning through the Cariboo Chilcotin Elder College — to my understanding, one of two such colleges in the province. Affiliated with Thompson Rivers University, the elder college is open to anyone over the age of 50. Membership dues are a minimal $10 per year, and members are eligible to take a variety of courses during the spring and fall sessions.

Membership in the elder college allows Cariboo residents to use the university's library and bookstore and to participate in many university-sponsored events. Members can also participate in the board of the elder college and volunteer as teachers of the many programs offered during the year. These programs include such topics as Cariboo history, drawing and painting, music appreciation, philosophers' cafe and geology of the Cariboo.

Volunteer instructors share the expertise they have developed during their own professional careers. In addition to these courses offered at nominal fees, a series of community service courses are offered to seniors at no cost.

The "Life Story Workshops" help seniors explore ways to preserve their personal history. "Coping with Chronic Diseases" helps participants explore non-medical ways of coping with conditions that have changed their lives.

The Cariboo Chilcotin Elder College is successful due to the volunteer efforts of many individuals led by the current president, Pat Cullem. Their willingness to donate and devote their time to community ensures that seniors in the Cariboo have an opportunity to continue their education. I ask the House to join me in thanking the volunteers of the elder college for their contribution to the seniors of the Cariboo-Chilcotin.

ROBERT BLOY

H. Bloy: I was going to speak of the great seniors from my riding, but today I'm going to speak about my dad. My dad Robert — or Rob or Bob, as he was called — came to Canada when he was 13 years of age from England in 1927. They stayed in Montreal for about one year, where my dad did some schooling and delivered groceries by bicycle in the Mount Royal area of Montreal.

In his teens the family of six children and my grandmother and grandfather moved to Falconbridge, Ontario, near Sudbury, and my dad and my uncle worked in the mines. For the first two years when they lived in Sudbury, the family of eight lived in a tent. My dad earned his ticket as a stationary engineer, and this started from working on the trains in the mining, stocking the boiler system.

When I was 18 months of age, with my two brothers Randy and Wayne and my sister Debbie, we moved to the Toronto area. My dad worked on many jobs as a stationary engineer for large industrial complexes and office buildings in the city of Toronto. The job my dad did then is now done by a computer chip.

But the job he worked at the longest and enjoyed the most was when he worked for the Etobicoke board of education, where he became the head custodian of the schools and where he retired from.

My mom and dad were always a source of wisdom to all of us. They never tried to stop us. My parents and my dad always encouraged us that we could do whatever we wanted to do in life.

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My dad was not a man of many words, but if we were on a wayward path, it would just be a few simple words from my dad that would put us back on the right track.

I'm telling you all of this today because the House won't be sitting in May, and in May I would like to have wished my dad a happy 95th birthday. I just wanted, on behalf of my siblings and I, to say how much we love our dad.

economic recovery

D. Cubberley: In troubled economic times the question of leverage is on everyone's mind. Whole sectors are no longer the drivers they once were. Assets taken for granted, once highly leverageable, contract before our eyes.

Such flagging prospects lead to diminished confidence and disappointing performance. When what was once so far up flounders and fails, we're desperate for something to rally resolve and stem the downturn, because waning confidence left unchecked breeds a deflationary spiral.

Faced with asset collapse, restructuring is necessary to reposition effectively for fresh opportunity. We scour the horizon for signs the slump is ending. Yet deep down, we all know intervention is needed. Hope persists that what declined precipitously can rise again and be all that it was and more.

So we search for omens, and we find them in our media, where stories abound of a buoyant reflation and families faced with languishing assets and lazy equity. For families, too, face moments where idled members may not enjoy the easy confidence they once knew, where the stellar performance of youth gives way to the dwindling stock of today, where the formerly reliable has become the barely discernible. Home economists

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seek ways to reflate these lapsed assets in order to regain their leverage.

The media reveal that they're finding the ways in droves, so much so that we are yet again number one in Canada. I recall Mick Jagger's reminder that while we can't always get what we want, if we try sometimes, we just might find that we can get what we need. That is what this House must do with our economic engine. For if the people are right — and who can doubt it? — it turns out to be a matter of administering the right medicine in the right quantity at just the right moment.

bulkley valley rod and gun club

D. MacKay: I'd like to follow along on the same theme as the member for Cowichan-Ladysmith and talk about wildlife.

On this past Saturday my wife and I, along with 200 other people, went to the Bulkley Valley Rod and Gun Club for dinner. I've got to explain the ambience of the place where we ate. The whole room has got trophy heads hanging around. There are big moose heads and elk and caribou and grizzly bear and bare lightbulbs. We had tables that were put out for food. It was a fundraiser for the Bulkley Valley Rod and Gun Club.

I want to explain some of the food that we had for dinner that night, and I'll tell you, it was very well prepared. There is quite a list here, so I'm going to have to read it very quickly, because I know I only have two minutes.

We had sweet and sour moose. We had moose stew. We had moose in gravy, moose in orange sauce. We had sheep cocktail meatballs, mountain goat, saucy apple goose, duck in apricot sauce, goose in peanut sauce, caribou stroganoff, caribou meatballs, caribou stew and dumplings — and they were excellent — curried caribou cubes, venison in gravy, sweet-and-sour venison, sweet-and-sour buffalo, buffalo lasagna, grizzly bear tenderloin in barbecue sauce, grizzly ham.

We had cougar in sauce, cougar pockets, baked salmon, Arctic char burgers, baked white and red salmon, fried salmon, and walleye. That must have been imported. Of course, there was the Chateau Cardboard red and white wine served in plastic glasses. It was a great evening of fine food and a successful fundraiser for the Bulkley Valley Rod and Gun Club.

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Oral Questions

BUDGET PROVISIONS FOR

COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT TRUST

B. Simpson: Yesterday another 725 forest workers lost their jobs. It's becoming almost impossible to track the daily mill closure announcements and the number of people who have lost their jobs from this sector. Yet in the budget there is not one penny of provincial money being put into the community development trust to assist these forest workers through this very difficult transition — not one penny. However, there is $365 million for a retractable roof over B.C. Place.

My question to the Minister of Community Development is this. How can he sit there and justify the Liberal government's skewed priorities? Not one penny for forest worker community development trust; $365 million for a retractable roof. How is that justifiable?

Hon. K. Krueger: Firstly, I think every member of this House feels a deep empathy for every one of those workers and the colossally bad news that this is to them and to their communities. Certainly, I want to express that on behalf of my colleagues on the government side.

As the member knows, the pulp industry is going through the worst trough that it's ever experienced in British Columbia. Just this morning the member and his colleagues came to talk to me about the community development trust, the allocation in this year's budget for the rural B.C. secretariat and the good things that we have been doing for displaced forest workers throughout the province. So it's somewhat disingenuous to ask the question in that way.

But the member should rest assured, as should the people of those communities and those displaced workers, that the government feels tremendous empathy for them and is working with their communities and will continue to do so to help in every way we can.

Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental.

B. Simpson: What is disingenuous is for the minister to sit there knowing full well that the community development trust transition closed last August 15. There has been no room for applications since then, and he admitted to us today there would be no additional provincial money put into that trust.

He talks about the trough that the industry is in. In this trough the Premier has added a carbon tax, straight cost to the industry. In this trough the Premier is threatening the viability of this industry with increased hydro rates. In this trough the Premier is threatening a trade war with the U.S., because he keeps saying he's politically interfering with the stumpage system. And in this trough this government has not put a penny to the community development trust for forest workers in transition, but $365 million to a roof over B.C. Place.

My question is to the Minister of Finance. If we truly have empathy for these forest workers, if this government truly has empathy for these forest workers, will you cancel the carbon tax, will you stop the B.C. Hydro rate hikes, and will you put provincial money in to match the federal money in the community development trust?

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Hon. K. Krueger: This government has cut school taxes to major industrial properties in a very major way. This government has eliminated the corporate capital tax which the NDP government of the '90s saddled all the major industries with. This government has made cuts to industrial taxation to the extent that Catalyst saves $5 million a year.

It's true irony to hear that member talking about the softwood lumber agreement which his leader has repeatedly talked about renegotiating, which means tearing it up. It's irony to hear that member talk about climate action change activities and the carbon tax, when his leader has repeatedly referred to the pulp industry and others as big polluters and expressed her intention to see that they are heavily taxed, as she says, "at source."

And it's very ironic to hear a member from that side….

Mr. Speaker: Thank you, Minister.

The member has a further supplemental.

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B. Simpson: Here's an e-mail from a forest worker's wife:

"We are in the process of missing our second mortgage payment, and many people besides us are on the verge of foreclosure in the next month. My husband is a laid-off forest worker, which will probably be permanent, and we are close to our wit's end.

"With the way the economy is going, people will lose their homes, marriages will collapse, or suicides will begin happening. This government has to begin doing something to improve the services that are being offered to displaced forest workers."

We are hearing this plea from every corner of the province.

My question, again, to the Minister of Finance: instead of putting $365 million to a roof over B.C. Place, will he put that $365 million to make sure these forest workers can keep roofs over their heads?

Hon. K. Krueger: Again, I want to express the sincere empathy and sympathy from every member of this side of the House to the woman who wrote that letter…

Interjections.

Hon. K. Krueger: …who I'm sure doesn't appreciate the heckling coming from the other side of the House.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Hon. K. Krueger: I take that as a very serious matter that the member just raised and care very much about the woman who wrote it.

I want to mention that amongst our tax relief provisions — and I've mentioned some of the ones to industry — we have recently announced that we are willing to carry the property taxes of anyone in this province who expresses on their own statement that they are suffering financial hardship. That saves people hundreds of dollars a month in many communities. We know that the forest industry is a sunrise industry in British Columbia. We believe in the industry.

When that member's party had a chance at government in the '90s, what did they do for the pulp industry? They put up to half a billion dollars into a defunct old pulp mill in Prince Rupert — Skeena Cellulose. At that time the professor emeritus of the University of B.C. forestry faculty said…

Mr. Speaker: Thank you, Minister.

Hon. K. Krueger: …there is a problem in Prince Rupert but no justification for transferring the problem to other communities, and that's what that government did.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

I remind the minister that when I say thank you, it's time.

GOVERNMENT SUPPORT FOR

Vancouver Island FOREST WORKERS

L. Krog: Up and down Vancouver Island are thousands of workers without jobs. Their families, their dependents, are all wondering who's going to make the mortgage payment, who's going to pay for the groceries. What they heard this afternoon from this minister was some empathy. Well, that's not going to do it for those families.

Talk is cheap. So my question is to the Minister of Finance. If this government wants to put some money where its mouth is, if it wants to give some meaning to what we just heard from that minister…. You tell us in this House today, Minister of Finance, exactly what you are going to do for those 350 laid-off workers in Campbell River who have just joined the thousands of other Vancouver Islanders without a job.

Hon. K. Krueger: In the first year of administration of the community development trust, we've received 2,294 applications under the worker transition provisions. Eighty-three percent of them have been approved, with an average payout per worker of $36,813.

We have received 1,538 applications for tuition assistance, and 90 percent of those have been approved. We have received applications under the job opportunities program for dozens of important projects around the province, which have been approved. People are working, and hundreds of people have jobs in the forest sector as a result of that.

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Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental.

L. Krog: Does the minister not understand that when you speak to the people of Campbell River in that way, they look across the water at Vancouver, and they see $365 million to improve and put a roof on a facility at which none of them will ever be able to afford to attend one single Olympic event? Perhaps they could consider giving away some of the free Olympic tickets to those people in Campbell River and maybe put a little joy in their lives.

That's not going to cut it, though. What those people in Campbell River are looking for is a government that shows some leadership on what used to be the most important industry in the province of British Columbia, that put food in the mouths of their families and paid their mortgage payments and sustained their communities.

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I say to the Minister of Forests: can he stand up in this House, then, since we're not getting any answers, and tell those people in Campbell River today what he's going to do for them?

Hon. K. Krueger: In 2002 one of the two major employers of the North Thompson Valley shut down 180 jobs because of the changes happening in the forest industry. Less than a year later another one burnt down.

I'll tell you what this member did, hon. Member. I rolled up my sleeves. I formed a committee with every elected person in the North Thompson Valley. We went to work. There's full employment in the North Thompson Valley now. We worked with every little community committee and all of the people who had good ideas. We diversified that economy, and it is a totally different picture. That's what every member over there should be doing.

The Whip from that side has made sure that people put in a whole bunch of applications to the job opportunities program, and more power to her. She's had six projects approved. But her colleagues are not doing the same.

That member should be rolling up his sleeves, working with….

Mr. Speaker: Minister, through the Chair, please.

Hon. K. Krueger: I think that member should be working with Catalyst, working with the communities, as I have been doing — I've been meeting with councils — working with the unions, if they're willing, as we did with Highland Valley copper, who kept working throughout the '90s, in spite of that government.

Ask me another question so I can tell you more.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

D. Routley: How sad it is for the people of Vancouver Island, of Crofton, of Campbell River, to hear this from this minister. He tells us about the community development trust. There have been thousands of job losses since the August 15 deadline to apply to that trust. Yet that's the answer he has for them today.

Yesterday the Forests Minister stood here and defended the extra costs that his government has loaded onto those companies on the same day that 375 full-time jobs were lost in my community — family-supporting jobs — with 44 percent of the local tax base being lost.

I want that minister to justify to my constituents how his government can justify $365 million for a retractable roof over B.C. Place while he does nothing to improve their lives and help them.

Hon. P. Bell: These are the most challenging times for the forest industry, and the pulp and paper industry is part of that, as well, right now. Yesterday I read some of the comments from the mayor of Campbell River. He said in discussions with Richard Garneau, who is the senior vice-president of Catalyst, that they simply didn't have an order book. They simply couldn't sell the product.

In fact, I talked to Richard just a day before, and he relayed the same thing to me. The workers also understand that.

So this is about bringing people together. This isn't about dividing them. This is about finding constructive solutions.

But that member has got a lot of nerve. He's got a lot of nerve. His leader stands up in the House and says that the NDP want to put a carbon tax on at source for our pulp mills. When you start running the numbers through, it means that the costs to our pulp industry would be exponentially higher than anything else that we've put on in terms of a carbon tax.

This government is the one that's reduced taxes. That previous government is the one that raised taxes.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

D. Routley: The workers of Vancouver Island understand that they are out of work. That's what they know. They know their families can't pay mortgages. They know their communities are going without, and they also know that this minister is unwilling to help them.

On September 16 he said: "We have pretty much reached the bottom." September 23: "The worst is over." November 24: "There's lots of good news out there." November 26: "My crystal ball was a little fuzzy." January 9: $365 million for a retractable roof. And yesterday he stood here and denied that the extra costs — the carbon tax, the increased Hydro rates — are not hurting their jobs.

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They know they're out of work. They know this minister is asleep at the switch. They know this government is doing nothing to help them.

Minister, what will you do today to help those workers and their families?

Mr. Speaker: Remind Members again: through the Chair, please.

Hon. P. Bell: You know, I find it interesting that the member opposite is suggesting that the investment in the new roof at B.C. Place is a bad investment, because his colleague the member for Columbia River–Revelstoke stood in this House on April 10 and said: "Why aren't we moving forward on the new roof for B.C. Place?" So I'm not sure which it is.

But amongst….

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Continue, Minister.

Hon. P. Bell: It appears as if I've struck a bit of a sensitive note on the other side. I don't want to in any way underestimate the challenges that this industry is facing. Anyone would have to be blind not to understand that the global economy is impacting our industry in a significant way.

But I want to walk the members opposite through a few numbers: the investment at West Fraser in Quesnel, $105 million; the investment by Interfor at Adams Lake, $100 million; Rivercity Fibre in Kamloops, $5 million; Structurelam, a brand-new plant in Okanagan Falls, another $5 million; Pinnacle Pellet in Strathnaver, $17 million.

I actually have a fairly lengthy list, so I would encourage the members opposite to keep on this track of questioning.

BUDGET PROVISIONS FOR

COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT TRUST

C. Evans: My question is for the Minister of Community Development. If you take away all the talk on both sides, we have a worker transition fund which closed August 15, 2008. Every day, regardless of whose fault you think it is, workers lose their jobs.

You have a fund that admits nobody, and every day, workers lose their jobs. My question is really simple and straightforward and doesn't require any rhetoric. What day will we reopen the fund to allow these new laid-off workers to apply?

Hon. K. Krueger: I talked with that member this morning about this very issue, talked with their Forests critic and four other opposition MLAs who wanted to talk about these issues. I asked them what they thought they would do if they were in the same situation as us, if they'd like to take

part in making some of these difficult decisions.

The Forests critic wouldn't say. He said: "I don't want to answer that." You may think that that's hedging, and it is hedging. He didn't want to say, because it's tough to decide. Are you going to put your money into creating new jobs for displaced workers, or are you going to continue transitioning more workers to retirement?

These are tough questions. We're working through them. I invited input from those members, and instead they stand up and pretend we didn't talk about it at all.

Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental.

C. Evans: I am only standing up….

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

C. Evans: It's true. Some of my colleagues here went to see the minister to petition on behalf of their citizens to open up the fund and let the workers in. It's true that the minister said: "Well, I've only got 30 million bucks and there are all kinds of other industries. Where would you spend it?" That's hardly the point.

The point is that we are paving the golden triangle — Whistler to Victoria to Vancouver. We are buying anything we want in the cities.

[1415]

Will the Minister of Finance give this poor minister enough money to actually manage the transition of laid-off forest workers, or do we and all of the people at home assume that you actually want to break this industry, that you actually want the majors to control the land, the independents to be gone, and have the corporations control British Columbia when the market comes back?

I know the government isn't stupid. So there are only two possibilities. There are only two possibilities. He hasn't figured it out yet, and he will now give the minister the money. Or they actually intend to break the forest industry.

Hon. C. Hansen: I find the line of questioning from the opposition to be rather peculiar today. It was only a matter of weeks ago that we heard from the member for Columbia River–Revelstoke saying that the new roof on B.C. Place should have been done sooner. Now we hear other members of the same caucus complaining that we're actually putting money into a new roof on B.C. Place Stadium, which is something that is going to have to be done.

I would like to say to those members that…

[ Page 14040 ]

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Hon. C. Hansen: …they should go and look at the….

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members. Members.

Continue, Minister.

Hon. C. Hansen: The new roof that's going to go on B.C. Place Stadium is something that is absolutely essential. It has to be done. Now is the time in an economic cycle to do it. It's to bring forward some of that capital infrastructure that's going to have to be built anyways.

I can tell you that in this budget there is $14 billion worth of capital expenditure that is budgeted for in this three-year cycle. Those projects are in every corner of this province. So 90 percent of the transportation infrastructure that's been built over the last number of years is outside of the Lower Mainland, and 72 percent of the total cost of transportation infrastructure that's been built over the last number of years is outside of the Lower Mainland.

We will be rolling out projects that will amount to 88,000 jobs, in every corner of British Columbia, to put people back to work and to make sure that workers in every corner can continue to see that kind of support from this government.

FOREST INDUSTRY ISSUES

ON VANCOUVER ISLAND

J. Horgan: Let's take a look at some of the forestry policy wonders that we've had over the past number of years. Two years ago the B.C. Liberals released 28,000 hectares of land on Vancouver Island. Last December the B.C. Supreme Court ruled that downzoning bylaws that had been approved by the CRD, had been approved by the Minister of Community Services, were not in force.

The appeal was launched in January. Yesterday we learned that there's a stay of proceedings, so we're right back where we started from. For two years we've had lost opportunities, we've had lost property rights, we've had lost opportunities for first nations and wilderness areas alienated for development.

My question is a simple one to the Minister of Forests. How's that working out?

Hon. P. Bell: In a very challenging time in the forest industry right now we should be focusing on the future of the industry. There is a bright future for the forest industry. The opposition may deny that, and I have heard them on a number of occasions say that there is no future to forestry, but I'll tell you what this government's focused on.

There are four key priorities. The first thing we need to think about is making sure that we utilize every single piece of that resource and extract maximum value from it. We're doing that across the province already.

The second key thing. Let's start thinking about growing trees — the opportunity in a low-carbon economy is enormous — and investing in incremental silviculture.

The third one. Let's focus on China. I know the Forests critic opposite believes that China will never take more than 10 percent of our total production. The member opposite is dead wrong. We've got a huge market over there. We're going to build a non-residential market that will be the envy of the world.

Our forest policy is looking forward. We've got a bright industry. We're going to make sure it happens.

Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental.

J. Horgan: That's incredible. That's absolutely incredible. Two years ago the Minister of Forests stood in this place and said that everything was going to be great on southern Vancouver Island. We were going to protect jobs. We were going to restore strength to a failing company.

[1420]

Well, yesterday Western Forest Products announced a $85.6 million loss. There are no jobs on Western Forest Products lands in my constituency. There are no opportunities for first nations. There are no opportunities to build a hut, because there is no planning. There are no rules on the west coast of Vancouver Island because of this government's inane policies.

Again to the Minister of Forests. If two years ago it was a good idea, two years have passed. Nothing positive has happened. What steps will you take today to put the genie back in the bottle, get people back to work and have some coherence on the west coast of Vancouver Island so my constituents will look at this government and say: "You're not the stupidest people I've ever seen"?

Hon. P. Bell: Again, I don't want to underestimate the stress that is on families in the forest industry out there. It's huge today.

My riding. Mackenzie has been impacted probably more than any other community in British Columbia, and yet those people are still working hard to make it through and have a bright future.

I think the important thing is to look at the investment record, because that's what it comes down to. When companies are investing, you know that they have confidence in the future.

So let's look at that record: Cowichan Bay, Western Forest Products, $13 million; Nanaimo, Nanaimo Forest Products, $13.2 million; Adams Lake, Interfor, $100 mil-

[ Page 14041 ]

lion; Armstrong, Tolko, $2.8 million; Creekside, Tolko, $8.1 million; Elko, Tembec, $15 million; Kamloops, Rivercity Fibre, $5 million.

I've got pages and pages of investments that have been made as a result of the policy framework that this government has put in place. That means that there is a future for B.C.'s forest industry. This government owns the future. That opposition owns the past.

MEAT INSPECTION REGULATIONS

C. Wyse: The Pritchard-Chase area lost four meat-processing facilities after this government passed their regressive meat inspection regulations. Now Andy Belo of Dandy Meats in Pritchard is being denied a class C licence despite the fact there is not enough slaughter capacity in that region.

This is a perfect example of how the government's cookie-cutter approach to this is destroying local agriculture. My question: will the Agriculture Minister commit today to fixing his broken meat inspection regulations?

Hon. M. Polak: Certainly, we recognized on this side of the House that the transition to the new meat inspection regulations was going to be a difficult one, and that's why we would put in place things like the meat transition assistance program, in order to assist companies like this as they try to move forward to a class A licence.

But it's not easy. We recognize that help needs to be there, and that's why we've provided well over $8 million in funding to support the industry. We will continue to work with them to make sure that this is a viable option for people to transition into this program.

Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental.

C. Wyse: The Minister of Agriculture does not understand the question that is being proposed. We're not talking about transition. We're talking about the actual acquisition of such a licence in an area where there has been a loss of four slaughter houses in the region.

Let me share with you the words from Andy Belo himself. He says it better than I do. "All we are trying to do is to make a living and keep an agriculture food production chain going. You are doing your best to kill this industry."

My question to the Minister of Agriculture: will the minister stand up in the House today and pledge to work with small producers like Andy Belo to fix his regressive meat inspection regulations?

Hon. M. Polak: Well, first of all, I have to tell the member he's wrong — and about a few things. First of all, he's wrong….

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Hon. M. Polak: He's wrong about the purpose engendered in the meat inspection regulations. British Columbia is one of the last provinces to come on board with safety regulations like this around meat inspection. While we recognize that it can be a challenge for the industry — and is in many areas — nevertheless, our highest priority is to ensure that, for British Columbians, they can expect that from the farm to the fork their food is safe, and they have that to count on in British Columbia.

[1425]

The other thing that the member is wrong about is that, in fact, we've improved the situation across B.C. We've actually quadrupled the number of processing plants since this regulation came into place. We're continuing to assist the industry through things like the meat transition assistance program — $8 million and more that those members voted against.

[End of question period.]

Point of Privilege

(Reservation of Right)

B. Simpson: I reserve the right to raise a matter of privilege.

D. Hayer: I seek leave to make an introduction of another group of students.

Mr. Speaker: Proceed.

Introductions by Members

D. Hayer: We have another group of grade 5 students from Pacific Academy, which is one of the great schools in my constituency of Surrey-Tynehead. They're here with their teachers, along with 39 volunteer parents. Would the House please make them welcome.

C. Wyse: I seek leave to present a petition.

Mr. Speaker: Proceed.

Petitions

C. Wyse: I'd like to present a petition on behalf of the Pritchard area seeking a class C licence for a slaughterhouse of Dandy Meats, along with letters of support for such a licence to be granted.

[ Page 14042 ]

Tabling Documents

Hon. M. Coell: Hon. Speaker, I have the honour to present the annual report for the Public Service Benefit Plan Act, 2007-2008.

S. Hammell: I'd like leave to…

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

S. Hammell: …make an introduction.

Mr. Speaker: Proceed.

Introductions by Members

S. Hammell: I'd be remiss if I did not introduce another fine B.C. teacher. Wendy Kaland teaches at Green Timbers Elementary School in the constituency of Surrey–Green Timbers. Would the House please make her welcome to these chambers.

D. Routley: I seek leave to present two petitions.

Mr. Speaker: Proceed.

Petitions

D. Routley: The first one is signed by dozens of my constituents petitioning the government axe its gas tax. The second is a petition signed by dozens more of my constituents to roll back massive pay hikes given to public sector administrators.

Motions Without Notice

MEMBERSHIP OF SELECT STANDING

AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES

Hon. M. de Jong: A couple days ago I made the motion, with leave, to appoint the select standing committee membership. It seems I should have turned to page 2. With leave, I complete the task and move:

[That the following Members comprise the membership of the following Select Standing Committees of the Legislative Assembly for the 5th session of the 38th Parliament:

Select Standing Committee on Health

Ralph Sultan (Convener), Dave S. Hayer, Dan Jarvis, John Nuraney, Val Roddick, Katherine Whittred, Adrian Dix, Guy Gentner, David Chudnovsky, Raj Chouhan

Select Standing Committee on Legislative Initiatives

Al Horning (Convener), Harry Bloy, Randy Hawes, Ralph Sultan, Dave S. Hayer, Mike Farnworth, Bob Simpson, Katrine Conroy, Jenny Kwan

Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills

Al Horning (Convener), Harry Bloy, Randy Hawes, Dave S. Hayer, Val Roddick, Mike Farnworth, Adrian Dix, Jenny Kwan, Katrine Conroy]

Leave granted.

Motion approved.

Orders of the Day

Hon. M. de Jong: Mr. Speaker, I call Committee of Supply — for the information of members, continued discussion on the supplementary estimates. I believe we are commencing Tourism.

Committee of Supply

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES:

MINISTRY OF TOURISM, CULTURE

AND THE ARTS

The House in Committee of Supply, K. Whittred in the chair.

[1430]

The committee met at 2:33 p.m.

On Vote 42(S): ministry operations, $15,100,000.

S. Herbert: I just wanted to start out on this to acknowledge that it is my first estimates debate. I've never engaged in this practice before, so I would ask that the Chair and the hon. minister give me a little bit of leeway and certainly provide fulsome answers so that I get the best understanding of how the ministry is planning to use this funding and, also, how the ministry is currently operating. That will help me understand, and I certainly think it will help others understand, who are watching at home.

Right now, with the recent budget that came out, there's been a lot of fear, a lot of trepidation in the arts and culture community. People are quite concerned. People are angry, and rightly so. There's a real fear for their future and for the future of arts and culture in this province.

Now, I know the hon. minister is a great lover of the arts. Certainly, we spoke earlier, about a couple of weeks ago, and talked about his family, how they're involved in the arts and his great love of his job as minister. I thought it would be useful to share just a little bit about my background in the arts.

[1435]

I come out of a theatre family, a family who produces, directs and performs theatre productions in Vancouver. I'm a trained actor, director and producer myself. I guess we get a lot of acting going on in this Legislature, but I'll try and keep it on the level, on the message.

[ Page 14043 ]

I've continued in the arts and culture community — producing festivals, working in the dance community producing dance events which have toured the province and toured Canada. I've had the luck of being able to tour internationally with the dance company I was managing.

This is a sector that I know well. It's a sector that I love and that I believe really builds B.C.'s economy, a sector that stimulates a creative economy which certainly punches above its weight in terms of the amount we invest and the amount that's actually produced.

I wanted to start off by asking the minister how the current budget allocation for arts and culture is broken down — the current fiscal year.

Hon. B. Bennett: I agree with most of what the member said. I do think it's fair of me to point out to the member that if he in fact is concerned about the arts and culture community in this province — being anxious, as he just expressed — it would probably be helpful if he would stop sending out letters to the arts and culture community, such as the one I have in my hand, which states: "The Minister of Tourism, Culture and the Arts has suggested that the provincial government is providing an additional $15.1 million for arts, culture and heritage. This statement is not backed up by the facts."

That's what we're doing here, talking about that $15.1 million. The member can't speak out of both sides of his mouth on this. I'm quite prepared to have a civil discussion about the budget for arts and culture, and also tourism, but the member doesn't need to lecture me about going around and inciting people and scaring people about what's happening in arts and culture. The member, in fact, has done that himself.

With regard to what's happening with the arts and culture budget, as the member, I think, hopefully knows, the base for 2009-10 was reduced but is being supplanted by this supplementary budget.

The $15.1 million will be allocated as follows. So $7 million will go to the B.C. Arts Council, which will give them a little bit more money, in fact, in the fiscal year 2009-10 than they had in the previous fiscal year. The balance of the $15.1 million, which is $8.1 million, will go to the provincial heritage sites for a three-year sustaining budget for them.

S. Herbert: I think we're having some fun with words here. I don't see how $7 million going to arts and culture, which they received currently in this year — they've received for a number of years — and then had taken away by the government in core funding and then given back, is additional funding. It's one-time funding.

I don't think I need to remind the minister of that, although if he wants to hold up e-mails and things, I've got a couple of letters that he sent out and a couple of press releases where it talks about additional funding for the arts and how everybody should be excited and be okay. Well, that's what they got before, so it's a bit rich for him to be lecturing me on inciting fear.

The fear is there because this government has absolutely rejected the idea of a creative economy. We've got — in 2010, 2011 and 2012 — massive cuts to the arts and culture budget, to the tourism budget, which this hon. minister is supposed to protect.

I want to keep this civil. But the facts remain, and I'm going to stick to the facts about what's going on here. The arts and culture communities deserve this. The Tourism Minister needs to step up and be truthful about this as well. I know he will be, because he's an honourable gentleman.

[1440]

So I return to the question that I asked, which I didn't get an answer for. I'd appreciate that answer for the record so that everybody is able to see how the funding breaks down. How is the current budget allocation for arts and culture spent? I'd like that broken down by program, if possible.

Hon. B. Bennett: We're here to discuss the supplementary budget of $15.1 million. I have generally indicated already how that will be allocated. So $8.1 million will go to the provincial heritage sites over three years, and $7 million will go to the B.C. Arts Council for 2009-10.

Hon. Chair, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we're here to do estimates on the main budget for the Ministry of Tourism, Culture and the Arts. I think we're here to talk about the supplementary budget, which is $15.1 million.

I can tell the member generally that last year the B.C. Arts Council received $13.3 million in addition to $3.8 million that they got from the two funds — the BC150 fund, and there is another fund that provides some interest as well. That was less interest than what was anticipated, of course.

So they received $13.3 million from the province plus the interest from the BC150 fund, which gave them in the order of $17 million and a little more. Going into 2009-10, we estimate that the interest from the funds will be about $3 million. With the $8 million that's in the base budget and the $7 million that's in this supplementary budget that we're discussing today, the budget will actually be a little bit more in the next fiscal than what it is this year.

S. Herbert: I appreciate the minister sharing some of those details. In order for me to feel comfortable about the total amounts, I'd appreciate if we could get more than $3 million and a bit, just because pennies are pennies, dollars are dollars, and it's all taxpayers' money. I'd appreciate it if we could get a fuller answer.

It will help my understanding of the math as well, because sometimes I'm a little thick. I did get an A in

[ Page 14044 ]

math when I was in high school, but I had to work my butt off to get it. So I really appreciate if we can speak about the full numbers.

Now, I guess I wanted to ask about the current budget just so that I understood how the budget breaks down for arts and culture. How much is going to the Arts Council? How much is going to ministry operations? How much of it is going to other programs, which I may not be aware of? I ask that just so that I can get a better understanding, so that I and my colleagues can understand where the needs are and what the other funds are for so that we make sure that the money is being spent in the best way possible for arts and culture.

Hon. B. Bennett: Well, for the member's benefit, when I said $3 million for the estimated or forecast interest from the BC150 fund, that's how budgeting works. You forecast what you think you're going to get from a fund like that, but you don't know how much you're going to get in interest until the end of the year. So that's why I said to the member, in very precise terms, that we earned $3.8 million in interest last year, but we were forecasting $3 million. To be very specific about that, it is $3 million that we're forecasting, but it is, nonetheless, a forecast.

As far as the second part of the member's question, I apologize. I didn't hear exactly what it was you were asking for. So if you wouldn't mind just asking me again, I'd appreciate it.

[1445]

S. Herbert: I guess I asked about the forecasting for BC150, because I know there were some press releases and big public events when the BC150 was first announced, where the minister at the time, not this current minister, stated $8 million. It would get us eight million bucks for the B.C. Arts Council, and what a great thing…. I guess I saw some other press releases — $6 million and then $5 million. And now I hear $3.8 million is what it actually brought in.

I turned to the minister's service plan, and it suggests that it will be bringing in $3.35 million over the next three years. That's why I wanted to ask that question — so that I could make sure those figures were the same as what the minister's working from. I understand it is a forecast, but would I be correct in using the figures from the service plan?

Hon. B. Bennett: The $3 million number that I quoted is accurate for the interest that we are forecasting for the BC150 fund, but there is another $350,000 in interest that's earned from the other fund that I mentioned. It's called the arts legacy fund. So that's where you get the total number that the member quoted.

There isn't one in this case, but if the member encounters any variances between the blue book and the service plan, it would be because the service plan is prepared a long time…. Not usually a long time, but a long time given the way the economy was changing over the past few months. So if there are variances, it would just be simply a matter of the blue book was more up to date than the service plan.

S. Herbert: To return to that question that he referenced earlier, I was hoping that I could get a breakdown. How much was spent on office expenses here for the arts and culture department? How much was spent for the B.C. Arts Council and for any other programs that are run out of the Arts and Culture Ministry? Just so that I can get a better idea of what the priorities are of this department and so that I can understand how we're supporting arts and culture as best we can.

Hon. B. Bennett: It's a good question, and it's an important question. I think we would agree, the two of us, the member and myself, that we want the vast majority of public funds to go to the artists, to arts and culture, as opposed to administration and other things that may not be core to arts and culture. I'm happy to say that in the case of the $15.1 million that we're discussing here today, that all $15.1 million is going directly to stakeholders for the express purpose of arts, culture and heritage.

So in the case of arts and culture, which is what the member wants to discuss right now, the $7 million is going directly to the B.C. Arts Council. They will adjudicate how that money is spent without any interference from the provincial government, and that will all go out into the communities.

[1450]

S. Herbert: I just wondered whether or not the minister might introduce the staff member that he's talking with, for my understanding but also for everybody else's. I think it's important we acknowledge the staff that we're working with, and I know that the minister agrees with me.

Hon. B. Bennett: In addition to this being the member's first estimates, this is not my first estimates. I was Minister of State for Mining and did an estimates, but I actually forgot a couple of things at the beginning of this one. So my apologies, particularly to my staff.

On my left is Deputy Minister Lorne Brownsey, who has been with the provincial government for a long time and does a great job for the people of B.C. Shauna Brouwer is next to me on my right. Shauna is the ADM both for Community Development and for us, and does a wonderful job. Behind me is Jeremy Long, who works for the ministry and works very closely with the B.C. Arts Council, so that's why Jeremy is here.

S. Herbert: So I'm clear, the $7 million that the minister was speaking about is one-time-only funding. It's just for this budget year.

[ Page 14045 ]

Hon. B. Bennett: The $7 million coming out of this year will be applied, through the B.C. Arts Council, to the fiscal year 2009-10. It is one-time funding.

S. Herbert: Thanks for that answer, Minister, that it's one-time-only funding.

The minister has stated that the budget for the B.C. Arts Council will be slightly higher in this next year because of this one-time-only "before the massive cuts to arts and culture come in 2010, 2011 and 2012" supplementary funding. I like to put that in there, because I think it's important to remember. So this is one-time-only "before the massive cuts to arts and culture come in 2010, 2011 and 2012" supplementary funding.

I'm wondering: how does the minister come to the conclusion that the funding will be higher next year than it was this year?

Hon. B. Bennett: Let me take my best stab at explaining this to the member, and it's not simple. It's not a simple situation of having exactly the same budget in the core budget that we had in the current fiscal year.

[1455]

It's a situation where we didn't think we would have the money next year but have it this year. We wanted to move enough forward into the next fiscal year to keep the B.C. Arts Council in the same sustainable position that they have been in for a number of years now. They've been in a very solid position here in the last several years.

If the member refers to the base budget, he'll see an $8 million figure there. You add the forecast interest of $3 million and then add the $7 million, and you're in and around $18 million, which as I have been saying publicly and I think have said here already, is modestly more in total than what they received in fiscal year 2008-09.

S. Herbert: So just for my recollection, the budget for 2008-2009 for the B.C. Arts Council was…?

Hon. B. Bennett: The grants budget for the B.C. Arts Council in 2008-09 was $13.3 million plus the $3.8 million of interest earned on the two funds, which totals $17.1 million.

S. Herbert: Maybe you can help me understand the math. The Georgia Straight newspaper was reporting that the slight increase was actually a decrease of $645,000. I tried to find out where they got that math, and maybe the minister would be able to show me where, because I couldn't see it. Maybe they could explain where they might have figured that figure out.

Hon. B. Bennett: I have no idea where the Georgia Straight gets any of its information.

S. Herbert: I'm curious, and I think many artists are. I'm certainly hearing from artists ranging from the minister's own constituency to the north to Vancouver Island, the north Island, small little islands, Powell River–Sunshine Coast, Vancouver, Victoria, Burnaby, Kamloops. I'm getting requests from all over the province. They're very curious. If the minister might be able to explain how this supplementary one-time-only "before the massive cuts to arts and culture come in 2010, 2011 and 2012" funding to the B.C. Arts Council budget would be awarded.

Hon. B. Bennett: The answer to the member's question is that $6.7 million of the $7 million will go to the B.C. Arts Council as accelerated funding for the fiscal year 2009-10 and will be used for operating budgets. To give the member an example, I suppose, the kinds of annual funding that the Vancouver Symphony would receive, but many, many other groups. That $6.7 million covers groups from all over the province.

[1500]

As I have been saying publicly, to have an assured budget for arts and culture in 2009-10 for these 253 groups that receive funding from the B.C. Arts Council, given the economic times, is a very, very positive thing. It's something that I'm actually personally proud of, and I'm proud of our government's ability to be able to provide this assured funding to so many arts and culture groups around the province for this next fiscal year. It could have been different, and I'm happy to say that it actually will be stable going forward into the next fiscal year.

Oh, and there was the rest of the $7 million. I talked about the $6.7 million, but $300,000 is also going to the B.C. Arts Council. It's going to be used by them for a program that they call unique opportunities, which will also add to the longer-term sustainability of arts and culture in the province.

S. Herbert: I appreciate the minister's excitement and gladness that we had this one-time-only operating funding going to the B.C. Arts Council before the massive cuts come in 2010, 2011 and 2012. I'm glad that the groups got it, but I gotta say that I'm really upset at this government. I'm really upset on behalf of artists, arts lovers, our communities.

I'm also upset because I thought this government understood that we need to be supporting our creative economy, that we need to be investing in the arts because they pay out better than we invest. A B.C. Arts Council study showed that for every dollar you invest, the government gets $1.36 back in taxes. It's right there on the website.

I don't understand why this government feels the need to cut, to slash, to destroy the great future that we've been building for arts and culture in this province

[ Page 14046 ]

over the last 20 years. It takes us back — back to the last century, back to when I was in high school, back to when I was in elementary school, really.

Yes, I'm a young man, but I understand the need to support the arts. I understand that it builds our communities. I understand that it provides jobs. So I'm upset. I'm very upset and concerned about the future for arts and culture in this province.

I return to the question about funding, because yes, this year the groups are funded. It gets us through the election. After that, the axe falls, so I'm concerned. I'd like to ask the minister if he's able to explain to me, how this core funding is going to groups, accelerated. What kind of process is that going to be?

Hon. B. Bennett: I'm informed that the B.C. Arts Council will meet next week. They are allowed, under their own policy, to fund 60 percent operating grants for the next fiscal year. So they will decide on those operating grants, or 60 percent of each of the operating grants, next week. That's how the dispersal of that portion of the funds will go.

The member expresses some — I'm not sure what word he used — anger, I think, about arts and culture funding in the province. If you take a look at what has been done with the arts and culture community in this province over the past six or seven years…. Actually, I'm quite proud of the record that we have.

The hon. member wasn't with us one year ago, but just one year ago we were here doing a supplementary estimate for $150 million for arts and culture. That will be there forever. That will be there forever for the arts and culture community in the province. Yes, the interest rate might be down a little bit today, but it will be back up again, and as I say, it will fund great initiatives in this province for many, many years to come.

[1505]

Over the last seven years the B.C. Arts Council has distributed over $93½ million into arts and culture in this province. This government has committed to $50 million for a new Vancouver art gallery. That's a pretty substantial commitment. We have committed $9 million to the Vancouver East Cultural Centre.

We have the best film and TV production climate, I think, in North America. We're the third-largest film and TV production centre. We just improved our tax policy to try and attract more film and TV investment in this province, more jobs. We have a line on a company from California that has its eye on Vancouver and that told us if we were able to change one element of our tax policy, they would look very favourably upon locating their new production facility in Vancouver.

The Finance Minister and government were kind enough to make those changes, and now we hope that that company will, in fact, locate in Vancouver.

The member, I'm sure, is aware that we have the Juno Awards coming up. The province has invested $650,000 into the Juno Awards in the member's hometown of Vancouver, and $600,000 to B.C. Scene in the nation's capital, illustrating to the whole country how vibrant our arts and culture scene is here in B.C.

This morning I had the pleasure of having a conversation with the chairman of the board and the executive director for the Vancouver Symphony. They were thanking the provincial government for the $250,000 that we gave.

It's an investment. It's not just a matter of giving the money. We invested in the Vancouver Symphony so that they could travel to Asia and so that they could be the first Canadian symphony to ever perform in Beijing, China. They were telling me that when they performed in Beijing, they had six standing ovations after one concert. They did so well. They made us proud.

This government has proven its commitment to arts and culture in this province. I don't think that we need to be defensive or take a back seat to anybody in terms of the commitment that we have made.

S. Herbert: Absolutely, I understand where the minister is coming from. He's proud of the last seven years, but as a government, we should also be proud of the future years, of what we do for the future. We should be excited about what we do for arts in the future.

Now I know that ever since I've come into the House, the minister, other members from the other side of the House, like to talk about the past. They talk about the '90s. They talk about how great they are, but I've got a long future ahead of myself in this province, as does the minister across from me. I'd like to know why we're not investing in the future of our arts and culture industry.

That's upsetting for me. I know we've got the Junos coming here. We've got 2010. I know the member talked about B.C. Scene in Ottawa. An artist that I worked with, a number of artists that I've worked with will be there. I'm happy to say that. But I'm wondering if B.C. Scene will be B.C. seen — as in, we saw B.C.'s arts, and now it's gone after 2010.

Because with the massive cuts this minister is bringing in for arts and culture in this province, there won't be much of an industry. It'll be like seeing a play, but you only get to see half of it. Singing a song, but you can only sing half of it. Going to the opera, but it's already over when you arrive because they couldn't afford to put it on.

An Hon. Member: Negative.

S. Herbert: I hear the member opposite saying "negative." That's what this future is that's coming to B.C.'s arts community. This government's policy is negative and destructive.

Hon. P. Bell: And pessimistic.

[ Page 14047 ]

S. Herbert: I hear the Minister of Forests say "pessimistic" and laugh about it. It's not funny, what you're doing to the Arts and Culture Ministry.

Interjections.

The Chair: Members. Member.

[1510]

S. Herbert: Now, I've got an interest in what happens in 2010, 2011, 2012, because I'm going to continue to be involved in arts and culture. I hear from people. I hear from arts administrators. I hear from painters. I hear from book publishers. But mostly it's the performance and visual arts community that are concerned that the future for them is not bright, that we've got a big party in February and after that, kaput.

I hear from people who remember Expo. Expo brought a lot of great, great things to our province, but for the arts and culture community it was pretty difficult. For many in the arts and culture community it was very difficult. They couldn't perform because there was nobody to go to the shows, and that hurts a company, especially a small company.

I've worked in small organizations where you've got one staff and everybody else volunteers. Board members — volunteers.

Across the province there are many organizations' volunteers, people just doing it for the love of it. They might get a small, small little grant from the B.C. Arts Council. That puts them through for the whole year, because they're fundraising, they're working, and they're trying to pull together so they can bring arts and culture to their communities and provide something for others to come and join them, to come to see what their communities have to offer. That's what the creative economy is about.

That's what brings jobs. That's what brings investment. To talk about yesterday, to talk about last year, to talk about the last seven years…. You know, I think there have been good things that have gone on for the arts in this province. There've been great things that have gone on for arts in this province, but we're still near the back of the pack nationally in terms of supporting our arts. And with these cuts coming, we'll go right to the back of the pack.

That's wrong. That's not going to build our future. That's not going to build our economy. That's going to put us in reverse. I remember the party opposite liked to talk about the truck reversing. "Oh don't worry. Be afraid of the NDP but not us, not us." Well, it's that party on the other side that has put us in reverse in terms of support for the arts and culture, and that's despicable.

Now, I return to the question of core funding for arts and cultural organizations. The minister might be able to help me understand. So groups now that are not on core funding but want to be on core funding — for example, they've been surviving on project-based support for years — are they able to get on to that core funding, possibly, if they make a good argument, or is it just for current clients?

Hon. B. Bennett: Well, the reason that the B.C. Arts Council was set up was to make sure that the answer to that last question is answered by those who know the artists, who know the arts and culture community. Those decisions are adjudicated by people who are in the field. They're not adjudicated by politicians — or even by public servants, necessarily. There is an appointed board that runs the B.C. Arts Council, and they'll make those decisions. I certainly would encourage any group or individual to apply to the B.C. Arts Council. They will either receive funds or not, on the merit of what they're proposing.

I do want to correct one thing that the member said. The member said that we're at the bottom of the pack here in British Columbia. We are not. We're actually doing very well here in British Columbia. If you want to look just at one thing and play that game, I guess you can argue that we're lower than some other provinces.

But if you take the total of what we have actually invested in arts and culture.... If you take BC150, the $150 million that was put in last year; the $50 million that was put into the B.C. art gallery; the $9 million that was put into the Vancouver East initiative; the almost $20 million — I believe it's in the order of $18 million to $20 million — a year that goes into arts and culture from B.C. Lotteries; the arts legacy fund, which was $20 million that was created; and the $25 million that went into the arts renaissance fund, British Columbia has invested an enormous amount of money into arts and culture.

To say that we are somehow or other trailing other provinces, when you look at the size of the investment, is just absolutely wrong.

[1515]

S. Herbert: Well, I'm glad that the minister agreed with the rest of my statement and only had one small, niggling problem with where we place in terms of Canada. I guess he understands that there's devastation coming to the arts, and it's unfortunate that there was no response to that statement. There really, I guess, can't be any response to that statement, because it's so disappointing.

According to this — here it's Statistics Canada, 2005-2006 — they said "second last." Now, I know the minister has been saying that there've been these additional investments. What I was speaking about was what's coming up in 2010, 2011 and 2012, because that's where we're heading.

There are other communities across the country and across the world that are understanding in this economic

[ Page 14048 ]

downturn that investing in the arts is good practice, that it actually makes sense, because the investment pays out so much more than we see in many other investments when you're trying to do economic stimulus. I think it's interesting that the minister didn't have a response to that area there.

I ask the question about the B.C. Arts Council and the core funding, because for many years, even with these small increases over time, groups that need to get on core funding — they've been on project funding for ten years, for many more years — can't, because there simply is not enough support in this province for those groups.

I understand that the B.C. Arts Council is a group that relies on peers to do the funding, and I think that's as it should be. I guess my concern was about that, and maybe it would be possible if Mr. Long might be able to give some indication for the groups that are concerned about this. I'm not sure if he's able to do that in this room or outside, but it certainly would help assuage my fears and also the community's fears.

Hon. B. Bennett: All 253 organizations will receive funding, as they did last year. I'm sorry if the member thinks that I failed to answer all of the different questions that were embedded a couple of questions ago. The member's questions are somewhat long-winded, and it's hard to keep track of how many questions, actually, he asks at one time. Let me do my best to answer the question that the member reminded me I apparently didn't answer, and that is about the future of arts and culture funding in the province of British Columbia.

That, in fact, is what we're doing here today. We're talking about the future of arts and culture funding in the province. That is why I'm surprised, frankly, that the member isn't happier for the people who he knows in Vancouver who are in the arts and culture community who will have stable funding going forward into the future. I think it's actually quite an accomplishment for this government to be able to do that, given what's happening in the economy.

In fact stability, a sustainable budget for arts and culture going into the next fiscal year, I would suggest to the member is a very, very positive thing.

S. Herbert: I agree that the groups this year getting funding is a very exciting thing, and I'm very proud of that. I'm very proud that this minister was able to get that out of his Finance Minister and out of the Premier.

But the question that I've been speaking about, which I guess there is no response to from the minister, is about the future beyond this year. This is one short year. It's a year. I'm talking about 2010-2011, 2011-2012, where the very own service plan of this minister shows massive cuts to the arts and culture, massive cuts which cannot be papered over by statements about what a great year 2009 will be.

[1520]

People rely on this funding. Artists and arts organizations do not plan for just a year. Many, whether it's the Canada Council for the Arts, whether it's foundations, whether it's the B.C. Arts Council, want to know what you're doing next year, because it shows a trajectory — where you're going, how you're funding your artists, how you're building.

I guess the concern with this accelerated, short-term, one-time-only "supplementary before the massive cuts come in 2010-2011-2012" funding…. They're concerned about where that funding is going. Sometimes artists have a bigger year because they've got a bigger production. Sometimes they have a smaller year because their lead artist is going on sabbatical. So they're wondering how this funding is going to be spent.

Is it just going to be the same amount sent out as they got last year? I guess what I understand from the minister is that groups that should be getting on core funding this year really have no opportunity to because of this situation. Is that correct, or is that incorrect? I hope it's incorrect.

Hon. B. Bennett: We are going a little bit in circles here. I think the member doesn't maybe get how a supplementary budget works.

I have said, and I'll say it again for the member's benefit, that the funding that is included in this supplementary budget will give arts and culture — the B.C. Arts Council specifically — the same amount, even a little more, this next fiscal year than they had in this current fiscal year. So there is no reason for the member to suggest that funding that has taken place in the past is somehow or other in jeopardy in this next fiscal year. It is not in jeopardy. This is assured funding during very, very challenging times. I hope that will satisfy the member, but if not, I'm sure he'll ask me another question.

S. Herbert: That's a very, very interesting statement, "Don't worry; everything's fine," and trying to change the question that I asked you.

I was speaking about 2010-2011 and 2011-2012. If there's no worry, I don't understand why people are concerned. You look at the minister's own service plan signed under his name, and it shows massive cuts coming — massive cuts coming. So if there's some sort of thing that I don't understand, that the service plan is wrong, that when it gets cut 45 percent it gets replaced with magic money in 2010-2011 and 2011-2012…. Maybe I need to go back to school, but reading the minister's own plan, that's what it states.

Now, if I'm wrong about that, if the minister can assure me that in 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 we're fine, then I would be happy to hear that. Maybe the minister

[ Page 14049 ]

will state that in his next answer in response to my question about this one-time-only "before the massive cuts come to the arts and culture budget in the 2010, 2011, 2012" supplementary funding.

I guess I wanted to ask, for the security of people who work in this industry and actually have to plan more than one year in advance, some questions about certain programs on which it's possible the minister might be able to share some information, get some advice from Mr. Long about how that works. This is an industry that can't afford to just say that we're going to keep our blinkers on for anything that happens beyond 2010. I know the minister wouldn't advise any business to operate that way, so I don't understand why he seems to think it's okay for the arts and culture industry to work that way.

These guys are businesses. They work as arts administrators, masters in business administration. These are people who know what they're doing. They want security for the future, and this $7 million doesn't give them security for the future. It puts off death's door one more year. Many of these organizations are hanging on by their fingernails already. Endowment funds have evaporated.

[1525]

I know the minister said: "Well, there's been a slight reduction." Well, to go from eight million bucks to three million bucks…. That's a pretty massive dry up, a pretty massive evaporation. I'm going by the ministry's own press releases, unless they don't believe their press releases and it's just political spin.

The question that I've got for the minister now is: I'm wondering if he can assure book publishers that under the B.C. Arts Council, there will be the one-time supplementary block funding for book publishers.

Hon. B. Bennett: As I've stated to the member previously, I don't make the decisions about the funding that goes through the B.C. Arts Council. That's adjudicated by them. Having said that, I am informed that book publishing will, in fact, receive the same level of support as it always receives. So the member can perhaps relax a bit on that one.

I do understand, for the member's benefit, that people in arts and culture are often small business people. The reason I understand that is because my brother is a symphony and opera conductor and my sister owns and operates a musical theatre with her pianist husband and has been doing so for many, many years. I know how hard they work and how much they struggle. I truly understand where the term "struggling artist" comes from.

I appreciate what the member is saying with regard to the need for the community to know as far as is possible what's going to be available for public funds going forward. Let me say to the member again that I think it is very positive that we have this sustaining funding for the next fiscal year, given the economic circumstances.

I think the member is correct to point out — and certainly, I anticipated that he would point out — that in the out-years of the three-year budget cycle, the picture is not as rosy. We have not yet been able to commit to keeping that budget at the same level that it has been at the past few years and will be going forward.

I hope this will make the member feel better. I was able to find the funding, which we're dealing with here today in this supplementary budget, to provide that sustaining budget going forward. I'm quite hopeful that we'll find it again in the out-years. We've got 13 months to do that. I certainly give him and the arts and culture community my personal commitment that that will be job number one for me over the next 13 months.

S. Herbert: I'd like to thank the minister for that answer. That was really helpful, I think, for the book publishing industry. I guess the next question I had was: what about annual assistance for professional dance organizations?

Hon. B. Bennett: I apologize to the member. I didn't catch that question. If he could ask that again, I'd appreciate it.

S. Herbert: Thank you, Minister. It's a question that I ask….

The Chair: Member.

S. Herbert: Yes?

The Chair: It's "thank you, Chair."

S. Herbert: Thank you, Chair. I'm getting to know this place, and I appreciate the assistance. I like to be told what to do now and then, since we tell so many other people what to do all the time as politicians. It's appreciated, getting that direction from you.

[1530]

I guess the question is about dance. It's the sector I actually came out of to this job. When I was running, I got the call about a by-election sitting at my desk at the dance organization, plunking numbers into a budget, trying to do a multi-year plan. It's kind of funny that I'm here asking these questions today, because of the struggles that our organization was going through.

I'd like to ask about the program for annual assistance for professional dance organizations. Should they have the same security that the minister and the B.C. Arts Council have given to book publishers?

Hon. B. Bennett: I believe that there is comfort for the member in that, once again, we have this supplementary funding that the B.C. Arts Council will have

[ Page 14050 ]

access to and that they can use to provide at least up to 60 percent of operating budgets for dance groups. I can't guarantee the member that the B.C. Arts Council will provide funding to every single dance troupe that applies. That's up to them. But certainly the same level of funding that's been there in the past will be there again for the B.C. Arts Council to work with.

S. Herbert: That's good to know that for this one year only dance organizations will be secure, because I think a lot of them were concerned for this year. Now they're just concerned for 2010-2011, 2011-2012.

I'm not sure what to tell them in terms of the budgeting process when they apply. I guess they can apply, but it seems a little interesting that they'll apply knowing that according to the service plan for Arts and Culture, most of the money won't be there.

I turn now to arts festivals and whether they've got that same assurance.

Hon. B. Bennett: The same answer for festivals as for dance and for book publishing. As I have said, the money from the supplementary budget is available to the B.C. Arts Council for them to pay out up to 60 percent of operating grants for the stakeholders that the B.C. Arts Council normally deals with, and that includes festivals as well as the other two groups that the member has mentioned.

[S. Hammell in the chair.]

I'm hoping that the member is aware of an announcement that we made today — I think today or yesterday — that 267 grants were made to 90 different communities in the province from this year's budget. A total of $6.2 million is being invested in arts and culture in the province. I won't bore the member or the House with the recitation of all of those 267 grants.

But the member, because he is from Vancouver, might be interested to know that in Vancouver $5,000 went to Tyee Bridge for creative writing. Gloria Chang was given $5,000 today, also for creative writing. Also for creative writing, there was $4,500 that went to Kim Wang Chong, $4,500 to Mark James Cochrane and $10,000 to Ivan Coyote. And Trina Davies was given $3,500 for creative writing.

There's quite a list here in Vancouver just under creative writing, not even getting into any of the other categories. There was a Mr. Gatchalian, first name Christopher, $5,000; Mr. Grubisik, $5,000; Cori Howard, $5,000; Michael James Kissinger, $5,000; Miss Kwa, $10,000, creative writing; Donato Mancini, $5,000, creative writing; Daphne Marlatt, $8,000, creative writing; and on and on it goes.

I'd be glad to read out the names of these folks from Vancouver for the member's benefit. Many of them may well be his constituents, but a very positive announcement. Again, $6.2 million being invested by this government in arts and culture in this current fiscal year.

[1535]

S. Herbert: I'm really glad that the minister shared some of those names. Indeed, some of those are constituents of mine, and some of them actually are friends of mine. So it's nice to hear their names mentioned in this chamber.

I think the question is, of course…. It's great for today. It's great that we're talking about supplementary funding this year. Of course, the concern, as I've said again and again, is the following two years. I'm glad that the minister has stated that he will fight for the funding.

I do like to point to a statement by the Premier, where the Premier said: "No, this is the budget. It's going to stay this way for the next three years." So that's the Premier. That's the minister. We'll see how that goes.

Maybe there will be a change. Maybe there will be a different minister and a different Premier coming up soon.

Interjection.

S. Herbert: Maybe the minister will be the Premier, although I'm not sure if he's interested in that. But I thank the member for Nelson-Creston for that suggestion.

I'll give a bit of a list here so that we can hear a response from the minister about some other programs within the B.C. Arts Council. I'm hoping that we might have the assurance of the B.C. Arts Council that arts training with organizations like the Comox Valley Youth Music Centre society, and on behalf of the member for Powell River–Sunshine Coast, the Powell River Academy of Music….

I'm hoping organizations like that, arts organizations that do training — of course, I'm not stating those organizations because that's up to the B.C. Arts Council, and who knows who they'll choose to fund this time — may be assured that they will be able to apply for the same amount of funding this next year. Although, we know, of course, that it will be much tougher the following two years.

Hon. B. Bennett: The answer to this question is the same as the answers to his other questions. There will be the same amount of money. In fact, a modest amount more, actually — in the order of, I think, between $800,000 and $900,000 more — is being provided to the B.C. Arts Council so that any of the groups who have typically applied to the B.C. Arts Council and have been successful, or even unsuccessful, will be able to go back to the B.C. Arts Council and apply again and have the same chance of being successful that they've always had.

Again, these matters are adjudicated by the Arts Council and not by us, but no one's opportunity in the

[ Page 14051 ]

arts and culture community has been diminished. I think that's really the bottom line. I think that if I were in the arts and culture community…. But for the grace of God, I could have been there. I ended up here instead, but if I were there…. I ended up here, and there is some theatre to this job. I understand that I'm not particularly good at that.

In any case, I think that what artists and people in the arts and culture community really care about is whether they have the same opportunity going forward that they've had in the past, and they do. That's the great story about this supplementary budget here today. They do. They have the same opportunity.

All of the groups that the member is raising…. You know, I applaud the member for raising those specific groups. I think that because of some of the things that the member and others have said, there is a lot of anxiety out there in the arts and culture community.

So I think it's a good thing that he gets some of this on the record — that yes, in fact, these groups in the arts and culture community will have the same opportunity to apply, with the same chances of success that they've had over the past several years.

S. Herbert: I caught one question based on the minister's statement. He stated that it was $28,000 or $29,000 more. I'm not sure if that was the figure.

[1540]

Could I get some clarity on how much more will be in the B.C. Arts Council budget this year? It may be more than that. I just couldn't hear what the minister said.

Hon. B. Bennett: Hon. Chair, I think we went through this earlier. The number that I just gave to the member was a range. What I said was "between $800,000 and $900,000." I'm informed that the actual number is $843,000 more that the B.C. Arts Council will have to use in this next fiscal year.

Again, perhaps to assist the member in getting this framed up so that he can provide this good news to his constituents and stakeholders in the arts and culture community, in 2008-09 the B.C. Arts Council budget was $13.3 million, plus the $3.8 million that was generated by the two funds.

Just as an aside to the interest earned on the two funds, I think that the member is looking at last year's budget and using the $8 million–plus number that was forecast for interest and, because that interest wasn't earned, is characterizing that as a cut. That's not a cut. That was interest that wasn't earned.

The arts and culture community, the B.C. Arts Council…. No one anticipated, once we saw what was happening with the economy, that that $8 million forecast interest amount was ever going to be achieved. They knew that they would only get what was actually earned, which was in the order of $3.8 million. I'm informed that what was earned was about $4 million less than what was forecast.

When you take what was actually earned last year — that was $3.8 million — and you add it to the $13.3 million that came directly from the province to the B.C. Arts Council, you come up with $17.1 million.

Going forward, in the next fiscal year you start with the $8 million that's in the blue book for the core budget. You add the forecast interest amount, which is $3 million, and you add the $7 million, and — I have to tell the member; this is a little bit rough numbers — you get $18 million. It isn't quite $18 million. It's more like $843,000 more. That's where we come up with the number.

S. Herbert: I appreciate that you're doing the math quite publicly. I understand that they're a little rough numbers. Even still, with the endowment funding, it could be up; it could be down. We shall see. And I understand that the projection is $3 million.

The reason that I discussed the earlier suggestion of $8 million is because it was much ballyhooed at the time. It was front page in the arts

section — people talking about how this $8 million was what they were bringing to the arts and culture community. I didn't hear, at the time, minister or ministry or other MLAs suggest: "Well, it could be $8 million, but it could also be $3 million." Instead, they focused on the $8 million.

So just using the numbers that the other side liked to discuss at that time…. I think that when you start promoting an idea, you've got to be accountable for that idea, and that's why I mentioned that figure.

[1545]

I do understand that it didn't pay out as it was predicted, and probably won't pay out next year or the following year as it was previously predicted, which is why I think it's a bit rich that there's discussion that there will somehow magically be the funding next year or the following year — certainly with the economic indicators we've seen and also the suggestion in the budget that the government still had not found $250 million that they're looking to cut.

With that being understood and with the understanding that economists today are talking about the figures being too rosy in this year's budget and that they're not quite sure if the government will be able to make that budget…. Some are certainly expecting there to be a downgrading and a budget in the fall. I've certainly heard the Minister of Finance discussing that there will have to be another budget, because the figures will have so drastically changed.

I've got a number of other questions around organizations, just to get some security for them. I appreciate the minister has stated that he's interested in providing that security for organizations. He has, I think, used the word "sustainability" so that they have the idea of sustainable funding. I don't agree that one-year funding is

[ Page 14052 ]

sustainable funding. It's a one-year commitment. After that, based on the forecast, it will certainly not be there. About 45 to 50 percent of that funding won't be there. I'm quite concerned about that.

For those organizations, so that they would know that they have one-time-only supplementary funding before the massive cuts come…. I'll give you a bit of a list of a couple of groups so that you can answer me, and I won't belabour it too much.

I'm asking about general support for organizations like the Centre for Sustainability, literary support for organizations like Projectile Publishing and project support for media arts organizations like the Vancouver Asian Film Festival Society, Indigenous Arts Service Organization or CineVic Society of Independent Filmmakers.

I just use these as examples, because they have received funding from the B.C. Arts Council in the past. I want to make sure they've got the ability to apply for funding this year. Although I know they may have the ability to apply the following year, they just will have a much less likelihood of support, based on the minister's stated service plan.

Hon. B. Bennett: Well, the answer is still the same. It hasn't changed. Groups that have been successful in the past will have the same opportunity that they've had in the past to be successful or otherwise. Not everyone who applies to the B.C. Arts Council is successful. I hope the member's not asking me to state publicly that some favoured organization in his riding is going to get funding, because I can't do that, and the member clearly knows that. But again, they will have the same opportunity they've always had.

I do want to respond to the member's comment that government should have known that the BC150 fund wouldn't pay as high a rate of interest — wouldn't pay out the $8 million that was forecast.

The member hasn't been around here as long as I have been. I can tell the member that when I first came into this place in 2001, this province was in pretty sad shape. We had a structural deficit in this province in the multi-billion dollars.

Interjections.

Hon. B. Bennett: The members on the other side don't understand what a structural deficit is. It's not that complicated, but they tend not to be business people. They tend not to have dealt in the economy all that much, so it's perhaps understandable that they don't get it.

[1550]

A structural deficit, essentially, is a term that applies to a budget that has more expenditure commitments than it does forecast revenues. When we took over government in 2001, that's the situation that we faced. We had an independent team of people look at all of the programming promises that had been made by the previous government, and they had actually set up a budget where the programming commitments that were made were considerably more than the revenue that they anticipated taking in. So for the member's benefit, that's what a structural deficit is.

When we came into this place eight years ago, we made a commitment in writing — in our platform document, actually — that we would balance the provincial budget by the end of our third full year. We did that and have, of course, balanced budgets ever since then.

We have been criticized by the opposition for the way that we forecast. It's a bit inconsistent of them now to say that we forecast too much for the BC150 fund, because we've been criticized by the opposition for forecasting too much in the past.

Our forecasting actually has saved this province from the sort of situation that Alberta is becoming familiar with, where they're facing a deficit situation in excess of a billion dollars. It saved us from the scenario that Ontario is facing, where they have a deficit in the order of, I understand, more than $10 billion.

We were very conservative in the way that we forecast. We wanted to make sure that at the end of the year we actually had some money left over so that we could balance the budget, which we did in subsequent years.

If the member really believes that there was anyone around who knew what the interest rates were going to go to back when the budget was done…. And typically, they're worked on in the fall of the previous year and put to bed, I think, sometime in January. So that would have been January of 2008 that it went to bed.

If the member really thinks that anyone could have forecast that interest rates were going to go down and that the economy was going to fall apart to the point where we wouldn't earn as much on the BC150 fund, I would suggest to the member that whoever was that smart should have a lot of cash in his pocket today and should be very, very wealthy. There weren't too many people around who were forecasting the kind of economic decline that we had.

With that, hon. Chair, we'll get ready for the member's next question.

S. Herbert: Well, I guess I should get used to it. I've certainly been patronized many times in my life and condescended to, but if the minister was listening to my comments, I never said that he should have predicted that. I never said that the government should have predicted the fall. What I said…. It's right there in Hansard. It's right there. People saw it at home. So I would have hoped that the minister would choose not to mischaracterize my remarks to score cheap political points, but unfortunately, that's what happened.

What I said was that if a government wants to go out and say, "Look, this endowment is going to make

[ Page 14053 ]

eight million bucks. Aren't we the best things around?" that they should at least acknowledge…. If he chooses to criticize me for saying that the budget is much less now, they should at least acknowledge that that's just a forecast.

Of course, the government of the day did not suggest it was a forecast. They said: "Look what you'll get; it's magic. We're going to do this for you." So if he wants to claim that I said, "Oh, they should have been able to predict it," read Hansard . Take notes.

If he's going to tell me about concerns about balancing budgets…. Arts organizations have to do that every single year with very little funding, very little support. So they know about how to balance budgets.

We had very little support and had a big challenge in the arts organization I recently was working with, but we managed to balance the budget and come out in surplus. If he wants to go back to the early days of this administration, he can do that. But I'm talking about today. I'm talking about the future for arts and culture in this province.

[1555]

To talk about 2001 may be interesting for the minister, but it doesn't discuss where we're going today, where his own government, the so-called deficit slayers, are in deficit. It happens. We understand that it happens, and then we see this government having to change their own laws so that they don't break the law because they are not able to balance their budget.

So arts organizations do know about balanced budgets, Minister. Unfortunately, with the cuts that you've put in….

The Chair: Member, through the Chair.

S. Herbert: Sorry, Madam Chair.

Arts organizations do know about balanced budgets, but what they don't know is what happens in 2010, 2011, 2012, when the budget gets slashed for the B.C. Arts Council, which will make it very difficult for them to balance their budgets and very difficult for them to offer programs.

I would hope that we could stay on point here. I asked a question; I never got an answer. So I'll ask it again. I was curious about organizations getting support, and the minister started to suggest that I was currying favour, trying to get support for organizations in my own area. Well, that's ridiculous. That's ridiculous.

If he thinks that I'm stupid, if he thinks that I'm trying to somehow magically curry favour with the government for funding, which comes from the B.C. Arts Council independently, he doesn't understand the process.

I think it goes to character. If he wants to try character assassination in this House…. Have the respect of your fellow members.

We're here on a difficult day. We're having a difficult day here because of what's coming up for the future of arts and culture in this province, and that's why I'm concerned.

Hon. S. Bond: Respect is two ways.

S. Herbert: I hear the Minister of Education saying that respect is two ways. I absolutely agree, and I'm speaking about this budget, which is coming up.

Interjection.

S. Herbert: I'm speaking about the minister's comments, where he tried to mischaracterize my remarks about currying favour for local arts organizations, when anybody can read the record and see that that's not the truth.

The Chair: Member, through the Chair.

Interjection.

The Chair: Order.

S. Herbert: I'm curious if the minister would be able to speak about possibly making sure the organizations will know that they're able to get support, or that they'll be able to apply for support, because the minister has made that very clear, as he should — because it's about applications, everybody getting equal opportunity to apply.

I'm asking about support for museums that receive project support, museums like the Port Moody Heritage Society, the Alberni Valley Museum or the Oliver and District Heritage Society. I'm also asking about projects for support for music organizations like Musica Intima, The Western Front Society or Lan Tung with the Orchid Ensemble.

Are those programs still going to be available with this supplementary funding?

Hon. B. Bennett: Well, the same answer. Museums will have the same opportunity that the other groups mentioned here today will have for the rest of what's left of this fiscal year and into the next fiscal year. They'll have exactly the same opportunity, with just a little bit more money available, as we've discussed. So that should be good news to the member.

I do want to inform the member that the announcement that I talked about a bit earlier today includes some assistance for museums and historical societies. Courtenay, for example, was given operating assistance of $23,000 for their museum. The Cranbrook Archives, Museum and Landmark Foundation — that's the Canadian Museum of Rail Travel — received $48,000 in this most recent announcement. Burnaby Village Museum received $50,000 for operating assistance.

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It's a fairly routine thing for museums to receive funding through the B.C. Arts Council. That will continue. I don't see any change in that, so I don't think that the member needs to fret too much about that for the next fiscal year.

[1600]

The member did accuse me of attempting to make cheap political points. Again, I'm reading from the member's own letter, an open letter from the member, which he sent. It starts out: "Dear friend of the arts, I am writing to you as the official opposition critic for Arts and Culture." That was sent out on February 20, 2009.

The member states that I am, as minister, saying that the provincial government is providing an additional $15.1 million for arts, culture and heritage. He goes on to say that this statement is not backed up by the facts.

Well, the member surely knows that that's not the case now, but I do believe the member was trying to score some cheap political points with this. That's certainly the way it appears to me.

The member goes on to say in this letter to the arts and culture community: "After the election, the budget will then decline by about 50 percent." That also is just wrong, and the member has no substantiation for saying that. So again, it would appear to me that he's trying to score some political points. We are in politics, and I don't really, I guess, fault the member for that, but I do think it's important for me to point out that what he is saying publicly about what's happening with the arts and culture budget is just absolutely wrong.

I hope that after we're done here today, he will correct the record with the community and let the community know what exactly is happening. I do want to tell the member, in terms of museum funding, because he asked about museums….

This announcement that we just made has $19,000 going to the Kitimat Centennial Museum Association. Again, Delta Museum and Archives society is getting $30,000; the Langley Centennial Museum and National Exhibition Centre, $60,000; West Vancouver Museum, $15,000. The Haida Gwaii Museum is getting $40,000 for operating assistance, and in Smithers the Bulkley Valley Historical and Museum Society is getting $12,000.

There's actually a lot of support for museums and historical societies. In this current announcement of over $6 million, a total of $1.8 million has been handed out to museums and historical societies in British Columbia.

Interjections.

The Chair: Members, just remember the point of the conversation here is to hear the minister and the members, and sometimes you're distracting even to the members and the minister.

S. Herbert: I'd like to thank the minister for the statement, but I guess it doesn't square with what I see here, which is the Ministry of Tourism, Culture and the Arts service plan, which was signed under the minister's hand and which shows that in 2010-2011, 2011-2012, after the election, the budget does decline, massively so. So for the minister to claim: "No, everything's fine. This person's making up stuff and should send an e-mail to people saying, 'Oh oops, I was wrong.'"

Well, I don't know what the service plan says. Maybe the service plan's wrong too. But based on what the minister has said earlier, that's certainly not so. The cuts are coming. The cuts are in the very service plan signed under the minister's hand. So I don't know what's going on here, if it's just words that don't mean what we normally think they mean.

When the budget so massively declines, that's a cut. It's not additional funding. This is a cut in 2010-2011. This is a cut in 2011-2012. And that's core funding.

One thing that the minister has talked about is sustainability and about the idea that an organization should feel secure. Museums should feel secure, because they'll be able to apply. "Oh yeah. Don't worry. Nothing's changed."

Well, by 2010-2011, 2011-2012, things have changed. Things have massively changed. Sure they'll be able to apply, but the funding is not the same. The funding has declined by about 50 percent.

I know the minister was speaking about this current fiscal year we're in. I know we're talking about supplements for the next fiscal year. It's great that they can get that money now. It's great that they can get this money in this next year, but according to the minister's own service plan, it's going to be pretty tough to get that money the following year. And that's not sustainable.

[1605]

For the minister to say: "I'm going to fight for that supplementary funding…." That's great, but that's not core funding. That's: "Maybe we're going to get it; maybe we ain't. Maybe it's coming; maybe it's not." But right now, based on what the Premier has been saying, what the Finance Minister has been saying, what this minister has been saying, it's pretty difficult that we're ever going to get that money next year, in 2010-2011, 2011-2012. It's massive cuts.

I hope the minister can recognize that. This is the way it is. This is his own plan. Unless this plan isn't worth the paper it's written on, that's what is coming to arts and culture in this province under this minister and under this Premier, and that's a scary future. That's a future of real difficulty. That's a future of companies crumbling, of organizations not being able to do their jobs. That's a future of thousands of jobs lost.

For a party that talks about jobs, they're now moving backwards. They're deciding that these jobs aren't worthy of their support. The arts here, under this plan, are not worthy of the investment, and that's wrong.

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President Obama understands that we need to invest in the arts in a tough fiscal period. We go back to the '30s and the Depression. They understood investing in the arts was a great fiscal stimulus. It also raised the spirit of the people.

We're talking a lot about numbers here, but I want to make sure that people also recognize, of course, that the arts are a great benefit to health, a great benefit to the spirit, community togetherness, bringing neighbourhoods together. They deal with community problems as well and help solve them. The arts do many things. But we're talking about economic stimulus, and we're talking about numbers today, so that's why I bring up those remarks.

Yes, the funding will decline after the election. It says right here in the service plan that the funding will decline, and as opposed to additional funding. So $7 million of additional funding…. Well, I guess if you want to see it the minister's way, additional funding is when you take away funding and then you give it back through a different pocket. That funding is the funding that was there before.

Additional money? Sure, if you slash and burn and then you give a couple of dollars back. You give additional one-time-only supplementary funding before you slash and burn again. That's additional funding, but that's not what I'm talking about.

What I'm talking about is that this is not a new investment. I've got press releases here where the minister is going on: "What a great thing it is for the future of B.C. It was in the throne speech. It was in the budget speech."

Reading the budget numbers in these service plans…. That's not a great day for B.C. That's a tough day. That's a bad day for arts and culture organizations, who are just going to get through this next year and then they're going to have the rug pulled out from under them if this minister and this government continue with their plans to destroy what have been years and years of growth.

All those last seven years that the minister earlier was talking about, how great his government has been to arts and culture — it throws it all down and knocks it down. It cuts it up. It puts us in the past, something that the minister likes to talk a lot about. But I'm talking about the future of our arts and culture community.

I'll turn to the next question here. I thank the minister for his earlier statements around museums and music organizations, and I'm hoping the minister might be able to give me the same assurances that, for one year only before the cuts come, theatre organizations…. I'll list a few just so that the minister and the people at home get an idea of how much this funding supports organizations and how much tearing it away will hurt organizations and hurt communities.

I speak about The Only Animal Theatre Society, groups like Western Gold Theatre, groups like The Nelson History Theatre, groups like Nanaimo Festival Heritage Theatre, groups like Pink Ink Theatre, Presentation House or the Leaky Heaven theatre society or the Greater Vancouver Professional Theatre Alliance, to name a few.

Can I have the assurance of the minister that they will all still be able to apply for this one year under this supplementary funding to continue to get one year's support from this government?

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Hon. B. Bennett: Same answer that I've given before. Any group or individual in the arts and culture community will have the same opportunity to apply and deal directly with the B.C. Arts Council and have their application adjudicated by the B.C. Arts Council. That applies to theatre, as well as the other groups that the member has mentioned. In this latest announcement that the ministry made with the B.C. Arts Council in the last 48 hours, the Vancouver Moving Theatre Society received $16,500 for project assistance — I think for festivals.

The Vancouver West Side Theatre — I'm sure that the member is familiar with that — just received $15,000 for project assistance for festivals. Here in Victoria the Intrepid Theatre Company Society received $45,000 for arts festivals. In Vancouver, $32,500 to the First Vancouver Theatrespace Society — again, theatre.

So there's no reason to think that theatre or dance or museums or book publishing or music should be in any different situation than they have been the past few years, in this next fiscal year. They will, in fact, be in the same situation. They will be able to go to the B.C. Arts Council. They'll be able to put their application in and have it adjudicated. In fact, despite the rather pessimistic picture that's being painted by the opposition member, there will actually be a few dollars more in the kitty to be applied for.

Now, I do want to just respond to a couple of things the member said. I also follow President Obama, and I think there's a lot to be learned from him and his style of leadership. But you're not seeing the U.S. projecting things out for three years. They are just as worried and probably at least as perplexed as any other jurisdiction in the world about what's going to happen over the next couple or three, four years.

They don't know. No one seems to know. You don't see him projecting out over long periods of time like that, for arts funding or anything else. So I don't think it's unusual for us to do what we're doing, which is to find $15.1 million through the supplementary budget and to put it into arts, culture and heritage.

You know, we went through an exercise as a caucus and as a cabinet. I was in B.C. for most of the 1990s. Maybe the government of the day did this. I never noticed them doing this. But over the past, I don't know, three or four months, each cabinet minister went into their ministry and tried to find money — essentially, to bring forward

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for the greater good of the province — to put into the priorities that we think the people of British Columbia have, like health care and education, like services for children, like services for adults with disabilities and a number of other important priorities like the ones I mentioned.

We were able to find, as a group of cabinet ministers, $1.9 billion within all of our budgets. That was an excruciating exercise to have to do that, but that's what you do. When you fall on hard times, you don't just keep spending the same way that you have been spending. I know the member and his colle